SPRING AWAKENING w/ Drama!

Summary

Broadway Breakdown Summary: SPRING AWAKENING w/ Drama!

Podcast: Broadway Breakdown
Host: Matt Koplik
Guests: Connor & Dylan McDowell (hosts of the Drama podcast)
Episode Release: March 16, 2023

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Main Theme & Purpose

This episode is a deep-dive exploration of Spring Awakening, the path-breaking 2006 musical that made the jump from off-Broadway to Broadway and transformed the landscape of musical theatre. Host Matt Koplik and guests Connor and Dylan McDowell revisit the show's creation, its cultural legacy, its controversial subject matter, and its impact on a generation of theatergoers. The conversation is candid, opinionated, and affectionate, weaving personal anecdotes with analysis of the work’s artistic elements and social reverberations.

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Key Discussion Points

1. Podcast Collaboration and Theatre Community Vibes

• [02:07] Matt teases the McDowell brothers about Drama being “too nice” and not dramatic enough, launching a playful back-and-forth about theater podcasting styles and the small, interconnected nature of the Broadway community.

2. ‘Ring of Keys’ Moments and Theatre Awakening

• [03:49–10:31] The trio shares their personal “ring of keys” stories (the moment you realize theater is “your tribe”), spanning from Disney Channel culture (Connor), the campy allure of Batman & Robin’s Poison Ivy (Dylan), and being enthralled by Beauty and the Beast on Ice as a child (Matt).
• The conversation highlights the recurring theme of community and re-discovering one’s love of theatre through new experiences.

Notable Quote:

“Dcom culture skyrocketed me into loving the idea of like a community, a theater community, a troop.” — Connor (05:51)

3. Introduction to Spring Awakening

• [10:51] Connor introduces Spring Awakening as their chosen show to discuss, noting it was a formative musical for both him and Dylan, emblematic of a generational shift much like the transition from Disney Channel idols to the show’s original cast.

Notable Quote:

“Spring Awakening changed theater forever and changed my life forever.” — Connor (11:33)

• [13:01] Dylan recounts discovering Spring Awakening via its MySpace page in July 2007, the show’s sex appeal, and its immediate post-Tony Award popularity.

4. Historical Context and Broadway Transfer

• [14:31] Matt, as a city theater kid, recalls the original buzz (or lack thereof) in the community when the Atlantic Theater production was announced for Broadway and the casting controversies (notably, Groff and Michele choosing Spring Awakening over other notable roles).

• [16:48] Trivia around leading ladies turning down Les Mis for Michael Mayer musicals (e.g., Sutton Foster).

5. 2006–07 Broadway Season & Tony Drama

• [18:11] Matt reminisces about rarely rooting for the eventual Best Musical Tony winners and posits that he was virtually the only teenager rooting for Grey Gardens over Spring Awakening that year, such was the show’s generational draw.

6. Plot and Source Material—What is Spring Awakening?

• [20:08–23:41]
  • Dylan and Connor summarize the story: A group of teens in 19th-century Germany navigate sexuality, repression, confusion, and tragedy.
  • It’s based on Frank Wedekind's banned play, with Duncan Sheik and Steven Sater's contemporary rock score providing a deliberate tension.
  • The musical’s score and style are discussed, with particular focus on the original play’s bleakness and the musical’s choices to soften or reframe certain plot points.

7. Controversy and Thematic Analysis

• [25:44–28:02]
  • Matt points out the significant revision in the depiction of sexual consent from play to musical.
  • The group discusses potential reactions if the show premiered today and how the musical makes the story more empathetic; they underscore the importance of exploring “messy, imperfect characters” in art.

Notable Quote:

“I do like in art, when there are characters who are making mistakes, imperfect, being complicated, making the audience think this is wrong and. Or this is right, or, you know…” — Connor (26:52)

8. Music as Language—Favorite Songs

• [37:27–49:49]
  • Connor’s favorite: the “Song of Purple Summer,” especially the extended Ilsa solo at the end, which he calls “the thesis statement.”
  • Dylan’s pick: "The Guilty Ones," a song both beautiful and narratively significant for how it reframes the central sexual relationship.
  • Matt shares a community poll about the meaning of “Purple Summer” and reports back on interpretations from cast alumni, landing on “a poetic ‘it gets better’ for adolescence.”

9. Controversies, Fandom, and the Original Cast

• [52:00–62:55] The hosts analyze why Lea Michele was overlooked for a Tony nomination and reflect on the fervent, and sometimes toxic, nature of early Broadway Internet fandom, which Spring Awakening catalyzed (echoing the notoriety of Rent’s fans).

• [59:46] Discussion of backstage stories, the challenges faced by young cast members thrust into overnight fame, and the sometimes sanitized narrative in the recent HBO documentary.

Notable Quote:

“Immediate success is really difficult to grapple with, especially if you're young, and that cast was young ... [the fandom] was rather toxic. As many fandoms can be.” — Matt (57:45)

10. Spring Awakening’s Legacy

• [66:49–67:47] The trio applauds the show’s enduring power and reinvention, specifically the acclaimed Deaf West revival that incorporated American Sign Language, discussing how flexible and robust the show remains for reinterpretation.

11. Detailed Song and Character Analysis

• [70:20–85:06] Segment by segment, the hosts discuss:
  • The self-indulgence sometimes encouraged by the show’s abstract/emotional style.
  • Inclusion gaps, particularly the underwritten female roles.
  • The recurring symbolism and sexual politics of key scenes (notably Moritz and Hanschen's stories).
  • The emotional and musical logic of climactic numbers (“Those You’ve Known,” “The Bitch of Living,” etc.)
  • The show’s refusal to moralize, instead inviting empathy for adolescent confusion.

12. Dream Productions, Revivals & Directorial Takes

• [110:55–116:03] Each host shares how they might stage Spring Awakening, envisioning immersive, communal stagings or stark modern settings, discussing how the show’s form and content could continue to evolve.

13. Favorite Cast Memories & Afterlives

• [102:07–108:42] The three recall favorite performances from original, tour, and replacement casts, highlighting the rich legacy of careers the show launched—acknowledging standout performances and casting connections.

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• [33:13]
  “Melchior is a great stand in for a lot of our modern day brethren who are incredibly smart and insightful and empathetic, but are more activists in theory than in human action.” — Matt

• [40:46]
  The group discusses the now famous documentary moment wherein Lea Michele showed Jonathan Groff her vagina for research purposes:
  “It’s specifically because Jay Groff was like, I didn’t quite know where the clitoris was.” — Matt

• [44:55]
  "According to Steven Sater, Purple Summer represents the time of maturation, a time when the fields will yield crops and the horses bear foals... a poetic 'it gets better,' if you will." — (community-sourced explanation relayed by Matt)

• [53:59]
  "Vendla is technically the leading female performance in the show, but I would say she's got as much stage time as Moritz and maybe less to do vocally even than Moritz." — Connor

• [61:15]
  "All it takes is one little poke. And the only reason I bring this up is because it's ironic. Connecting A2 Spring Awakening, which is the whole: we don't like to talk about the things that make us uncomfortable, the things that feel unpleasant, but you kind of have to if you're going to make it through." — Matt

• [67:30]
  "The 2015 revival, where they incorporated American Sign Language... That's the sign of a great revival on a great show—telling the same story, but in an interesting way." — Connor

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Timestamps for Key Segments

| Timestamp | Segment/Topic | |-------------|----------------------------------------------------------------------| | 02:07 | Podcast banter and Drama's approach | | 03:49 | Ring of Keys moments (Defining moments for hosts) | | 10:51 | Why discuss Spring Awakening? | | 13:01 | Discovery of the musical and generational connection | | 14:31 | Spring Awakening’s Broadway transfer: buzz and casting | | 18:11 | Tony Awards history and Matt’s “underdog” preferences | | 20:08 | What is Spring Awakening about? Plot & themes | | 25:44 | Consent & controversy (Play vs. Musical) | | 37:27 | Favorite songs and their meanings | | 52:00 | The Tony snub for Lea Michele; 2007's stacked Best Actress race | | 57:45 | Fandom toxicity and handling young stardom | | 66:49 | The Deaf West revival and enduring legacy | | 70:20 | On self-indulgence and the show's emotional style | | 110:55 | Dream stagings and production visions | | 102:07 | Favorite performances and original cast memories | | 122:11 | Promises to return for Next to Normal episode | | 127:03 | "Six Degrees" trivia game segment | | 133:18 | Closing diva selection: Lea Michele as Fanny Brice in Funny Girl |

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Flow, Tone, & Approach

• The dialogue is energetic and irreverent, laced with inside-theater references, theatre-kid nostalgia, and meta-humor about podcasting and Broadway fandom.
• The group treats darker themes—teen sexuality, repression, and abuse—honestly but with sensitivity, contextualizing controversy within the show’s argument for openness.
• Personal anecdotes are woven throughout, connecting critical analysis to lived experience and to queer coming-of-age themes especially.
• The discussion trades “tea”-spilling and Broadway trivia for a fundamentally compassionate approach: “messy” art matters; people can grow and change; fandom can be transformative or toxic.

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In Summary

For fans or newcomers alike, this episode serves as a passionate, thorough guided tour through the history, music, controversy, and emotional core of Spring Awakening. The hosts exemplify both deep theater-geek knowledge and generosity of spirit—giving the show, its creators, and its fans space for both critique and celebration. Whether examining plot details, performance lore, or “what would you change?” hypotheticals, they spotlight why Spring Awakening continues to matter: its rawness, its risk, and its enduring declaration that young hearts—and voices—ought to be heard.

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Closing Moment

[133:59] (Closing Diva Selection)

• Connor chooses “People” from Funny Girl sung by Lea Michele as the episode’s outro.

“It is sublime.” — Connor

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Find the Drama podcast at: @thedramapodcast
Find Matt on Instagram: @mattkoplik
Subscribe to Broadway Breakdown: bwaybreakdown.substack.com

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End of Summary

Transcript

[Dylan McDowell]

Mama who bore me Mama who gave me no way to handle things Things who made me so sad Mama the weeping.

[Matt Klik]

Hello all theater lovers both out and proud and on the DL. Welcome back to Broadway Breakdown, a podcast discussing the history and legacy of American theater's most exclusive address, Broadway. This series is called the Big Move and it is covering shows that had so much success off Broadway, they just had to transfer to the Great White Way and try some luck over there. I am your host, Matt Klik, least famous and most opinionated of the Broadway podcast hosts. And with me today are Broadway podcast co hosts. They are brothers, they are theater fans. They are the moment. The moment is them. One might say they've done the thing and continued to do the thing. Please welcome the co hosts of Drama, Connor and Dylan McDowell. Hello, gentlemen.

[Connor McDowell]

Drama.

[Matt Klik]

Hello, I'm Dylan.

[Connor McDowell]

I am Connor. For your listeners who have never heard our voices before, I'm the one that sounds more annoying and I'm a little.

[Dylan McDowell]

Bit raspy, I like to think at least.

[Connor McDowell]

Thanks for having us on.

[Matt Klik]

Thanks for coming on, guys. So, first of all, I was telling you before we recorded, I've been listening to some of your podcasts today, and it's lovely. I have one complaint podcast called Drama. You're not bringing me enough Drama. You're far too even, even tempered. You're far too kind and considerate. You ask your guest where you're meeting them that moment, like emotionally and mentally, if, like what headspace they're in. You are far too kind and considerate. I don't like it. Your podcast should be called Nice People.

[Dylan McDowell]

Wow. This is, this is. You must be the only one star review that we've gotten on Apple podcasts before. That is a really great critique. You know, we. When we started the podcast in 2019, I think we wanted to be a little bit Page Sixy. And then we realized how small the theater community is and how people are so afraid of.

[Connor McDowell]

Anything.

[Dylan McDowell]

Toes, you know, anything. The only, the closest example to someone who steps on toes, we've learned other than the filthy, foul mouthed Matt here is this sweaty fella on Tick Tock. And we see this chair that that sort of caused. You know what I mean? So at heart, Connor and I are just kind Midwestern boys. But we'd like to think that Drama is more than just, you know, gossip or tea. It's also life, honey.

[Matt Klik]

Yeah, absolutely. I. First of all, you know you're famous when you get your first one star review on Apple because it's no longer like friends and family. It's someone who found you was not a fan, and you are, and you're still standing here, so bravo. I think this might be the first time we're hearing Connor and Dylan dip their toes into some of the, for lack of a better term, cuntiness of Broadway. We don't. We're not page six on this podcast. We don't really like to tell secrets. Super out of school. The only tea we tend to spill is the stuff that's, like, relatively well known in the community. Maybe some fans may not know, but, like, everyone in the community knows it's out there. And, you know, we opinionated. But on that note, first of all, I have. I have two questions. One is for you, one is for me. Both of you have asked your guests, what is the ring of keys moment? I don't know what your ring of keys moment is. And for the listeners of my podcast who don't listen to drama, what does that mean?

[Connor McDowell]

Oh, my God. So my answer changes. We always say, like, do you have a moment? Or moments? And that's because I find that I still have them all the time. But if I were to really boil it down to when I realized, like, I love the community aspect.

[Matt Klik]

I love.

[Connor McDowell]

I love celebrity. I love Disney Channel original movies because it's like this. There was a network of artists that they would, you know, maybe Brenda Song was starring in a detective, you know, film. But also she was playing I'm Sorry on the Suite Life.

[Matt Klik]

I'm sorry, did Brenda Song do Get a Clue with Lindsay Lohan? Is she the friend in that? Or is that. Are you talking about a different detective movie?

[Connor McDowell]

I actually don't know what I was. I wasn't specifically referencing, like, a specific Brenda Song.

[Dylan McDowell]

She might have been the friend in that.

[Matt Klik]

She might have been. Connor. You cannot say details like that willy nilly, because these things exist in the DCOM universe.

[Connor McDowell]

I think I just really want Brenda Song to play a detective in, you know, she. She was in Get a Clue.

[Matt Klik]

She was.

[Dylan McDowell]

She had to have been.

[Connor McDowell]

Yeah, she had to be. Why else would I have said that?

[Matt Klik]

I don't know. First of all, we don't know. I think she was. She feels like the kind of sidekick to Lindsay Lohan at that time. Like, she was young. She was in it.

[Connor McDowell]

She was in it.

[Matt Klik]

We love this. We love this.

[Connor McDowell]

I love this. But no, I loved this. And then. But you're watching Disney Channel, so you're not only watching them star in movies, have songs on the CDs that come out on Radio Disney on the website. You know, disney channel.com, where you can play the video games inspired by the shows, but also you're watching Disney and you see little like we're all just chilling behind the scenes vibes, you know, like they're recording songs for charity, you know, doing summer games where they're competing in the Olympics. So I really feel like dcom culture skyrocketed me into loving the idea of like a community, a theater community, a troop.

[Matt Klik]

This.

[Connor McDowell]

This something you could be connected to. Which, of course, the musicals were my favorite.

[Matt Klik]

Yeah.

[Connor McDowell]

High School Musical, Cheetah Girls. So I feel like if I were to really pin it back to like.

[Matt Klik]

Cheetah girls with Ms. Susan Egan, period on. Period. Sorry, and I interrupted. You can finish your statement.

[Connor McDowell]

Oh, I just feel like if I were really to think back to like the. The youngest I was when I was.

[Dylan McDowell]

You know, and the Cheetah Girls, wasn't she.

[Matt Klik]

No, she was. Got to kick it up. Never mind.

[Dylan McDowell]

She was. She was Ms. Bartlett and got to.

[Matt Klik]

Thank you, Dylan. That was homophobia on my part. Connor, continue.

[Connor McDowell]

I love that. No, I feel like that's where it began for me because then I was like, okay, Ashley Tisdale's slang is Sharpay, but she's very grounded and humble as. As a Maddie behind the candy counter and Suite Life. So I would say that that's it for me. But I was always interested in celebrity, in the arts and drama, of course. So, Dylan, what do you think?

[Dylan McDowell]

Yeah, I mean, even before that, like, Disney movies on VHS were huge for us. You know, I think every young theater gay acted out the scenes while the movie was playing for their family. You know, everyone loves to be like, when I was a kid, they actually filmed me singing along with Aladdin or whatever it is that is real. That did happen. It's not as unique as you might think it is, but it is. I'm gonna go with a different one that I have been thinking about lately for my ring of keys, which, for those who don't know, in Fun Home, it's when you realize maybe your identity, you identify with something. On our show we talk about maybe your love of the arts or theater and identifying yourself within that passion. And I think it was the movie Batman and Robin for multiple reasons, but it had Uma Thurman as Poison Ivy and it was this draggy performance of geek chick turned super sexual villain. And she was mysterious and she was wearing these incredible outfits and she had unreal lines and her delivery was camp of everything. And I think that campy movie really helped kind of sharpen my sensibility for what I like and go for. I'm a huge drag person. Like, I don't do drag, but I love drag. I love the arts. I love theater. I love, you know, some of my favorite physicals include things like hairspray where there's drag components or kinky boots. And so I think that that was a moment where I was like, oh, I love this. What else is there? And I can kind of trace back now, looking at this, you know, it all started with Uma, I suppose.

[Matt Klik]

All started with Uma. I will say Uma Thurman in Batman and Robin is similar to me as Gina Gershon in Showgirls. Of two women who know exactly what movie they're in and are the only ones who come out of that thing alive because they know exactly how to mediate their performance to the temperature of the film. I love both those answers. Thank you very much. Thank you.

[Connor McDowell]

What's yours?

[Matt Klik]

The one that my family likes to talk about, I really have no memory of it is Disney. Surprise, surprise. When I was 3 or 4, I was a very hyper, energetic child. I couldn't sit still. I cried a lot. I still cry a lot, but for different reasons. And when we were in Florida visiting my grandparents, my. My parents took all of us to see Beauty and the Beast on ice. And my grandfather was like, oh, great, Matt can't sit still for five minutes. He'll be gone by intermission. But supposedly, the moment it began, I was just, like, hooked. And I sat still and I was completely silent. And that's when my parents. I was three because Beauty and the Beast on Broadway was the year later. And my parents were like, that was when we knew that there wasn't necessarily something, like, up with you. You just like, you need connected with. And clearly this was it. I like that you mentioned sort of like things that re trigger your love of the arts and the community. Because I've had. I will say. And we'll talk about as we get into this show, which we haven't announced yet, but as anyone who's clicked on the episode link knows, they know what show we're talking about. There are times as you get further down the rabbit hole of the thing you love and you get closer to seeing how the sausage gets made, it's easy to fall out of love with it a lot. And it just. It happens. And sometimes things will kind of re trigger your love for it. And I would say the last two things that really did it for me was freshman year of college when I. All my listeners are going to take a shot here. When I rediscovered the 94 carousel recording and just I was like, oh, this show sounds incredible. And I watched it, like, in center. I was like, oh, this is the best thing I've ever seen. And this is now my favorite musical forever. And then the second one, ironically enough, was seeing Fun Home on Broadway after seeing it to the public, where I was like, oh, this was a 10 out of 10. And then I see it on Broadway and I'm like, oh, this is an 11 out of 10. And I went and saw it five more times.

[Dylan McDowell]

Oh, I love both of those examples. 94 was. That was Audra, right?

[Matt Klik]

Audra was 94. Yeah, she was Carrie Pipperidge. And remember this name, gents, because it's going to come back to us later. Sally Murphy was our Julie Jordan. Now, on that note, Connor, Dylan, what show are we talking about today?

[Connor McDowell]

Well, our listeners will not be surprised at all that the show that we wanted to bring to you is Spring Awakening, which is a ring of keys from myself and my brother, I think for sure.

[Matt Klik]

Yeah.

[Connor McDowell]

Came at the right time. We were, you know, 13, 14 when we discovered it. And those were our new Disney Channel original stars. I mean, we. We're all about them. And interestingly enough, all of them had these robust careers that we could follow throughout and even to as recently revisiting the material last year in the documentary. So I think Spring Awakening changed theater forever and changed my life forever. So I'm super thrilled that we get to break it down.

[Matt Klik]

Absolutely. Yeah, it's. Yeah, we'll absolutely break it down and we'll discuss the legacy and the history of all of it. Before we do that, let's take a quick break. Billy, I beg to differ with you. How do you mean? You're the top. Yeah, you're an arrow collar. You're the top. You're a Coolidge dollar. And we're back. I'm so glad I did that now because if I didn't do it now, I would forget about it for an hour and I have to do two of them. So you remind me in like an hour, I gotta do another one.

[Dylan McDowell]

Our friend Robbie Roselle told us to remind you.

[Connor McDowell]

So I will definitely have to take a bathroom break at some point because I only drink constantly. Not alcohol.

[Matt Klik]

No, that's fine. I'm currently drinking alcohol right now, so I don't appreciate that shade, Connor. But also, Shellen and I can talk while you go pee. You're not special.

[Connor McDowell]

Oh, I didn't. I wasn't gonna leave when I peed.

[Matt Klik]

Well, we're talking about the right show for all this kind of talk, honey. Piss play on a podcast. Must be talking about Spring Awakening. So y' all were 13, 14 when the original production came out? That's what you're telling me?

[Dylan McDowell]

Okay, that is true.

[Connor McDowell]

We were like. I think we were 12. So 2006, right?

[Matt Klik]

It opened on Broadway in the winter. 2006, yeah, 2006. Okay.

[Connor McDowell]

So we discovered it a little in the spring.

[Matt Klik]

So your spring awakening was in the spring. Got it. Spring of 2007, then. Like a few months. Okay.

[Dylan McDowell]

We discovered July. Specifically July of 2007, the morning we were leaving for our family vacation to New York City to see Beauty and the Beast starring Anneliese van der Poel. So we got a little Disney dcom connections here. And I was on MySpace.com, you know, just doing some last minute what's going to happen when we're in New York this week? And I found the MySpace page for spring Awakening, and it was red and black. It was sexy. And I saw boys in schoolboy uniforms, which is, you know, kind of hot, I think, you know, closeted me was like, oh, what's going on here? And of course, it was completely sold out. It had just won the Tony. So we saw Beauty and the Beast and Hairspray that trip. But the next summer, we went back and saw it just as the original cast was sort of phasing out. And we saw, like, the first replacement cast, kind of. But I digress.

[Matt Klik]

Well, first of all, Dylan, was your nickname in high school receipts, because you just have all the receipts. You just know all of it.

[Connor McDowell]

His memory's insane.

[Dylan McDowell]

Yes, it is.

[Connor McDowell]

Meanwhile, I don't remember what we even talked about 10 minutes ago, so.

[Matt Klik]

Well, I was listening to the Glick episode for preparation for this episode. I was like, oh, let's hear. Let's hear. What a spring. Yeah, I do my homework, Dylan. I did graduate from college on time and on budget, despite what the rest of my family thought was gonna happen.

[Dylan McDowell]

On budget. So you do have receipts as well, my friend.

[Matt Klik]

She do. They're all paid off. That said, listening to Glick, I believe it's you, Dylan, who you are very good at knowing what played in what theater. That's your. That's your brain.

[Dylan McDowell]

It's one of my favorite games.

[Matt Klik]

I'm absolutely the same.

[Dylan McDowell]

Yes.

[Matt Klik]

So we can. Let's do some challenges later. But yeah, bonus content. I was a few years older than you guys. Not that much older. Not like grandpa Here. But I was 16 when the show was at the Atlantic and moved to Broadway. And I remember I was definitely like, I had my finger on the pulse of Broadway at the time. I was a city kid. All my friends were theater kids. So we all were seeing everything. And at the time that Spring Awakening was announced to come to Broadway, the only things I remember were my friend Emily had seen it at the Atlantic and. And there was no real buzz among theater kids about it other than just like, oh, this thing that was off Broadway, it's coming to Broadway. Who's seen it? Because it was like all the adults were the ones who made it like a big sold out hit at the Atlantic because Duncan Chic and, you know, the reviews and all that, it did not take off with the kids until Broadway. And Emily, I remember Emily saying, like, it's really good. I'm not sure how it's going to go, which they talk about in the documentary. And I knew Skyler from years prior from doing theater with him. And so for a lot of us it was like, oh, Skyler's gonna be on Broadway, that's cool. And then the other thing was, there was a moment where no one knew who was gonna come to Broadway because Jonathan Groff had just gotten cast as, I think Jesus in Godspell at Paper Mill and Lea Michele had gotten cast as Eponine for the first revival of Les Mis. And the conversation was, well, who's gonna replace them for Broadway? Because, I mean, you don't turn down those jobs. And then both of them turn down those jobs to do Spring Awakening, which was like very big news. It's the second time some. A leading lady in a Michael Mayer musical has turned down playing Eponine to be in a Michael Mayer musical. Do you know who the other leading lady was?

[Dylan McDowell]

Yes, it was. It was. The role ultimately ended up going to Celia Keenan Bolger for.

[Matt Klik]

For Eponine. Yes. But the first. So this, this is not that revival. I'm talking about the original. Someone was supposed to go into the Broadway production of Les Mis for like a year or so. I was Eponine and she turned it down to go into a Michael Mayer musical that was having an out of town tryout at La Jolla.

[Dylan McDowell]

I have no idea.

[Matt Klik]

Ms. Sutton Foster. Wow. Yeah, she was. And as we all know, she wasn't even playing the lead. She was understudying the lead. So, ladies and germs, let this be a lesson to all of you. If you get offered the chance to play Eponine and then Again, at the same time, get a chance to be in a Michael Mayer musical. Even if you're like the fourth swing to the left, take the Mayor musical. It's going to be good for you. You shut down. No. No disrespect to Ms. Eponine, Ebony tonight.

[Dylan McDowell]

If you're nasty, but not her surname.

[Matt Klik]

No one calls her by her surname. And I'm like Mademoiselle Thenardier if you're nasty, let's. Let's call her what she is. But, yes, that was. I remember that was sort of the big tea about that, was everyone thought Leah was crazy for turning down a sure thing with Les Mis. When everyone's like, spring awakening. That thing's going to be gone by January. And they. They stuck it out. They had a very rough go of their first, like, six months. They sort of hinted on this in the documentary, but they didn't really kind of explain that. Like, they opened, I think, in November of 06, and the Tonys were not until June of 07. So they had about seven months where it was like they were really kind of going by the skin or their teeth and just, like, praying and praying that the Tonys would work out for them. And it did. Spoiler alert. It did. Dylan.

[Dylan McDowell]

In a very, very busy year, though. I mean, it was a crazy season.

[Matt Klik]

Yeah. Well, yes, it was a crazy season. And we will also sort of get into my Tony drama of this year. Okay. I. I have a narrative gents of tending to not root for the musical that's gonna win best musical. Not by design. I just. I'm always sort of rooting for the show that I feel like no one else is rooting for. And it kind of started with the 04 season because I loved Wicked. I was a burgeoning gabon, and so I loved Wicked. I thought Avenue Q was delightful, but I had just seen Carolina change, and it blew my mind. I was like, I think I want this one. Didn't happen the following year. Piazza. I was like, I want Piazza. If not Piazza, then Spelling bee. I'm not spelling be. Then dirty rounds, cat rolls, and guess what wins.

[Dylan McDowell]

Those are Jersey Boys.

[Matt Klik]

No, that was the following year. The year. The year of Piazza.

[Dylan McDowell]

Oh, Spamalot. Spamalot.

[Matt Klik]

Spamalot. Spamalot. Won, which is not a bad musical, but it was the worst of the four.

[Dylan McDowell]

I know.

[Connor McDowell]

I always forget that Spelling bee didn't win.

[Matt Klik]

It didn't. It won book, which is fun. Okay.

[Dylan McDowell]

The wealth was kind of spread.

[Matt Klik]

Yeah. It was Spelling Bee. One book, Piazza, one score. Spell Melot One musical, which is so odd, the following year was Jersey Boys v. Drowsy Chaperone. Team Chaperone. Avi, we love Sutton Foster's Cooter Slam. Like, that's. I'm pretty sure that woman has created more gay men than any gay man in the world. Like.

[Dylan McDowell]

Yeah, no, I think you're right.

[Matt Klik]

Yeah, she's. She has been a lot of our own ring of keys moments. Then for Spring Awakening year it was. I was Team Grey Gardens. And I think I was the only teenager at the time who was a theater kid who was Team Gray Gardens. Because when I tell you that everyone else, and I mean everyone else was Spring Awakening, it was like with such a fervor that I almost lost friends that year. Wow. Yeah. And I wasn't anti Spring Awakening.

[Connor McDowell]

I was just different.

[Matt Klik]

She different. Yeah. Now, Connor, Dylan, for those who live under a rock or who are uncultured, what is Spring Awakening about? What's. What's the plot? Who is she?

[Dylan McDowell]

Well, she's a young girl in, you know, 1892 Germany. Basically, not only a young girl, but maybe a group of young boys and girls who are in living in this repressed, you know, pre war society. But it's based on a play written by Frank Vadakund, who was, you know, very prolific of his time. And I think it ended up getting banned and different things like that. But it was sort of with stayed within the Zeitgeist as this revealing piece and it was adapted by Duncan Sheik and Steven Sater in, I think it was in the late 90s. And it's these kids who basically are going through the. Their adolescence, puberty, some might even say, and confronting all of the different things that start to happen to you, whether it be, you know, an identity type crisis or, you know, your body is changing, your mind is developing and the way that they intermingle with each other and the adults that sort of shape this society that they're. And it's all scored by contemporary rock and roll slash pop music, which creates a bit of a tension between this sort of classic book meets this modern music. And it won every single best musical award it could possibly win in 2007.

[Matt Klik]

Connor, rebuttal.

[Connor McDowell]

You know, Dylan dropped the mic. But I will say I think it's the only musical ever where there's someone masturbating for the entirety of a song that's a popular up tempo for the.

[Matt Klik]

Entirety of the song.

[Connor McDowell]

Yeah, for sure, yeah, the entirety, for sure.

[Matt Klik]

Yeah. Right, right, yeah. I think we could probably name three or four, where it's like others.

[Connor McDowell]

He can't. They came too soon in those.

[Matt Klik]

I mean, gay Connor, very specific wording.

[Connor McDowell]

Hanson really went for it. He really. He was edging for the entirety of that number. But no, for sure. Dylan. Dylan. Nailed it. Dylan, I don't know how you did that.

[Matt Klik]

You did a wonderful job. What we call it edging or he's just constantly interrupted by his cock blocking father.

[Connor McDowell]

That too, yeah.

[Matt Klik]

So I was sort of looking into the play itself because. Have you either of you read the original play or never?

[Connor McDowell]

No, although I think we bought it.

[Dylan McDowell]

For one of us.

[Connor McDowell]

One of it got us. Got it for the other for like, a birthday or Christmas because we were so obsessed.

[Dylan McDowell]

We needed everything.

[Connor McDowell]

I don't know if we ever really got through the text, you know?

[Matt Klik]

Yeah, it's. Well. And, you know, with all these foreign plays that get translated, the translation changes based on who does it. It's. It is an odd play in the same way that, like. And I hate to, you know, bring it back to all the things I love, but, like, to mirror it with, like, Carousel and Lilian. Right. Like, I know people think of Spring Awakening, the musical, as sort of an odd duck, and she is. And, you know, very few musicals, I would argue, like, objectively perfect. We can always find things to acknowledge, and we shall, in a very constructive way. But reading the original play earlier this week, I have to give Steven Sater some credit because the original play is odd. It's extraordinarily bleak. He makes a couple of changes for the better. For a musical, I should say. The play opens with Venla in her, like, little school girl doll, her kindergarten dress. It gives me very Surrey and 30 rock vibes. When Tina Fey tells Siri very much, she's like, yeah, like, you need to wear, like, this, like, giant cardigan or whatever. And so he's like, I can make this hot. And she basically, like, turns it into a bra of some sort. That's Venla's. Like, oh, yes, this the dress that fit me when I was 10. I'm wearing it now as a 14 year old, so it barely covers my vagina. That's. That scene opens the original play. But then it goes into basically Venom or Mom. She says her mom. Like, you ever think about death? And then it just go into the next scene. The whole scene about, like, the stork and how do babies get made? That's way later. I think that's like end of act one and, yeah, a whole lot of other stuff. The character of Anna of the four girl group is not in the original play. It's just Marta, Tea, and Venla. Ilsa, of course, comes in later. The Mor. Sorry, the Melchior Venla storyline is way rougher. Yeah, I don't know if you guys have looked into this part, but spoiler alert. How does Act 1 of the musical Spring Awakening end? Connor, you take this one.

[Connor McDowell]

They make love in a hayloft while their friends push a swing around. And they sing about how they believe that there's love in heaven. Ultimately.

[Matt Klik]

Ultimately, that. And of the two of them, who actually knows what it is that they're doing?

[Connor McDowell]

The boy.

[Matt Klik]

The boy. Melchior. Melchior understands what sex is and how it works and the consequences of doing it, whereas Venla has absolutely no idea. In the musical, all she knows is that it feels good, she likes it, and she does eventually relent because Melchior is like, why should we let ourselves not do this just because people say it's wrong? In the play, we hate to, you know, say this word too often, but, like, in the play, it's fully a rape, whereas in the music, a little more gray area. Because, like, while she is enjoying it, she doesn't actually know what it is that they're doing, and that is its own form of sexual abuse. In the play, she fully is just, like. She's so confused and doesn't know what's happening. And the last line of Act 2 of the play is milky or don't. And so.

[Dylan McDowell]

Yeah.

[Matt Klik]

Which, like, I don't think that Dylan. How do you say the name again? Frank.

[Dylan McDowell]

Yes.

[Matt Klik]

Frank Vedekant. Yes. Thank you. I don't think Vatican was saying, like, isn't this romantic? He was being like. The whole point of the plays. Children have urges. Mankind is awful and we're all toxic, and, you know, we're just meatbags roaming the earth. The way the play ends. Ends. It has, you know, Melchior coming to the gravesite. Spoiler alert. Some people die with the character of Moritz, who kills himself when his grades are poor and his dad's like, I'll disown you. And then Venla dies of a botched abortion. Because when you aren't practicing a procedure like that safely, you're most likely going to die. Remember that. Guys, we're not political on this podcast, but we are at the same time. Because what Venla doesn't realize is when you have sex with Jonathan Groff and you let him finish inside you, babies happen. Just if you're Lea Michele not if you're me. I've tried many times with Jake Groff and it just hasn't happened yet. I keep waiting. You said it.

[Connor McDowell]

You said it before I could. Matt, you. You beat me to the punch.

[Matt Klik]

Would you like the punch?

[Connor McDowell]

It's interesting to talk about complex characters like Melchior, because I wonder if Spring Awakening came out today, if audiences would be responding to specifically that story point in a way that's. They're calling it too offensive or cancelable or whatever. Because ultimately, you know, he is like a 14 year old boy who does know what sex is and what it can lead to. And he does have sex with, you know, Vendla. And I'm not saying I condone that act, but I am saying I do. Like in art, when there are characters who are making mistakes, imperfect, being complicated, making the audience think this is wrong and. Or this is right, or, you know, Etc, Etc, And I wonder, you know, when Spring Awakening came out in 2006, it would have been a totally different conversation, which I'm sure still happened, but I imagine now audiences would probably be like, no, there's a rape in that show, a deliberate rape from our hero. And I think audiences would probably think of it differently. Don't you guys think?

[Dylan McDowell]

Oh, yeah, no, that's a good way of putting it.

[Matt Klik]

Yeah. Well, first of all, I. My ultimate annoyance with quote unquote, theater criticism is when people say something is cringe. I don't think that's an actual criticism. We have to discuss sort of the intention of a moment. And again, you know, you're talking to someone who's favorite musicals, Carousel. And so, you know, there are, I would argue, a show that's ultimately about how, like, people who are unhappy and are drowning make really messy, awful decisions and keep making bad decisions and it blows up in all their faces. And then it's like, well, how do you put yourself back together after everything's fallen apart? And Spring Awakening is a little bit the same way. And ironically, Connor, with what you bring up, like the. The show was controversial when it first came out in the early 1900s, and the musical was controversial as well, and it still remains controversial. And it's ironic because the whole theme of the show is like, well, if we don't talk about these things, they're still gonna happen. Just, it's gonna happen with much more dire consequences. So we at least have to talk about it. Yeah, and. Yeah, for sure. Yeah. And the musical, I think, is a little more empathetic to the characters and Melior in particular. And like, you can't have Jonathan Grof as your lead and have him just be like a toxic rapist, you know, I mean, you could. That's. We, we, in some ways we love this casting. But as you are as like our hero, it's a little more gray area because it's. There's, there's a. There is a love in the musical, whereas the play there isn't much love. He's a bit more of. Kind of a blowhard kid. And. And the play ends not with Venla and Moritz's ghosts, but with Moritz's ghost with his head blown off. So he's carrying his head and you better believe they make jokes about it. And basically Morris is like, being dead is amazing. I. I love it so much more than being alive. Come be dead with me, Melchior. And then a dude who we never know what his name is, he's just known as the masked man comes on stage because, you know, any masked man in a cemetery in the middle of the night who's Talking to a 14 year old boy is instantly trustworthy.

[Dylan McDowell]

Bills, creepy, chills.

[Matt Klik]

It's like, this should be a horror movie. He basically tells. Melkior is like, don't listen. He's like, don't listen to the ghost boy whose head is in his hands for some reason. He's like, come with me. I will tell you all the things about adulthood so you won't be struggling anymore and more. And Melchior's like, the fuck is this? And Moritz goes, eh, go with him. I was lying. Being dead's kind of awful. I just wanted you to be with me. And that's how the play ends.

[Connor McDowell]

Interesting.

[Matt Klik]

Yeah. Whereas I think the musical. I think again, Satyr's like, so we're cutting the masked man. It's like, what if we brought back Vemba because, you know, we need to bring up back our leading lady and we put a song here and it's a lot more hopeful. Whereas the play, it's a little kind of foreboding. That's not the right word, but sounds right interesting.

[Dylan McDowell]

And I think they remove any element of Moritz trying to convince Melchior to take his own life, because him and Venla appearing, it is they. They each sort of are like on his shoulders. But they're not devil and angel, in my opinion. They're both kind of saying there's more to learn, there's more to experience in life.

[Matt Klik]

Yeah. The thing that the documentary said that I appreciated because I never really thought of it this way. In the cemetery scene towards the end, Melchior, you know, has escaped from reform school and he's gonna, you know, run off with Venla. So he thinks before he realizes that she has died. And in his despair, Moritz's ghost comes out and sings the those you've known reprise. And Melchior's instinct is, while thinking of Moritz, great, you had the right idea. I'm going to take my own life. And as Dylan said, like, it's not Moritz telling him to do it, it's just the memory of Moritz triggers that for Melchior. As soon as he's about to do it, Venla's ghost appears and she starts to sing. And the difference between the two is Moritz took his own life. Vemla did not choose to die. And it reminds Melchior in its own way, like, you still have the gift of being alive. Don't just take it for granted and take it away. There's an unlike Moritz who truly felt like there was nothing left to live for like Melchior. It's almost as if him killing himself was going to be like a political act. In fact, you know what? I'm gonna go on, I'm gonna go on a limb out here and, and bear with me.

[Connor McDowell]

We're in.

[Matt Klik]

I think Melchior is a great stand in for a lot of our modern day brethren who are incredibly smart and insightful and empathetic, but are more activists in theory than in human action. Like, can think about mankind as a general concept and analyze it from afar, but can't really understand the nitty gritty, messy emotional stuff which Connor was mentioning earlier about sort of like what makes the show not cancelable. And I think Melchior is sort of like, if, if Melchior were watching Spring Awakening on stage, he'd be like, no, this is cancelable Act 1. Melchior would be saying this by the end of the show. I think Melchior realizes that musical Spring Awakening is not cancelable. And I think in the movie version it ends with him writing the play Spring Awakening.

[Dylan McDowell]

Of course it does. You know, he's been journaling throughout the whole thing. You know it's going to turn into his manifesto.

[Matt Klik]

Exactly. He's Jo March and the play is Little Women.

[Connor McDowell]

Actually, that's interesting because it's a movie.

[Dylan McDowell]

That'S been circling the drain for years that who knows if it will ever actually happen. But yeah, we need.

[Matt Klik]

Well, in fairness to the play, the one director who was circling it was Mick G. And much as I love the first Charlie's Angels. That's not a director that necessarily gets a blank check to do what he wants.

[Connor McDowell]

I love the second Charlie's Angels, AKA Charlie's Angels.

[Matt Klik]

Yeah. Full throttle. Why?

[Connor McDowell]

It has everything you could possibly need in any film.

[Matt Klik]

I'm sorry, no. Okay, we're not talking about Spring Waking for at least five more minutes until both of you make this case. Take it away. It's the.

[Connor McDowell]

There is not a better film.

[Dylan McDowell]

There's girl power. There's cameos. There's sexuality that's owned, not exploited.

[Connor McDowell]

There's a fallen angel.

[Matt Klik]

Yeah.

[Dylan McDowell]

Pink is herstory. Moore is in it. Drew Barrymore, the Olsen twins.

[Connor McDowell]

You know, you've got.

[Dylan McDowell]

Shia LaBeouf is. His career is about to take off.

[Connor McDowell]

It's camp.

[Matt Klik]

It's.

[Dylan McDowell]

It's about sisterhood.

[Matt Klik]

And you have.

[Dylan McDowell]

You have Jen Aniston's ex with the.

[Connor McDowell]

Gray sweatpants, Justin Theroux doing an Irish accent.

[Matt Klik]

Mm.

[Dylan McDowell]

But you got hot men. You have incredible stunts. You have John Cleese, like, misinterpreting innuendos.

[Connor McDowell]

Well paced. It's camp.

[Dylan McDowell]

There's a whole musical sequence at a strip club to the Pink Panther theme.

[Connor McDowell]

An end credit sequence that calls back to scenes seen and not seen in the film.

[Dylan McDowell]

Any way you want it. By Journey.

[Connor McDowell]

I mean, it's got everything.

[Dylan McDowell]

Except for, like, you know, a cohesive plot. Perhaps.

[Connor McDowell]

Perhaps they're going for the rings. They have to get the rings of McCarthy.

[Dylan McDowell]

I mean, it's so good.

[Matt Klik]

Bernie Mac, to be. To be fair, I have not seen the film in about 18 years. The thing I remember is what's his face from Back to the Future, the creepy man. The one who plays Michael J. Fox's dad. Back to the Future, with his hair thing. Like, loves. He loves to pull the hair of women and sniff it.

[Dylan McDowell]

Which, you know, Crispin Glover, I think is the actor's name.

[Matt Klik]

Crispin Glover. Yes. And I. And I've been there. I've been. I've done the hair pull out and sniff it because, you know, you only live once.

[Connor McDowell]

I did hear that about you.

[Matt Klik]

Thank you. Thank you very much. But there's a moment with him and Drew Barrymore where, like, they almost kiss and connect. And then I think he gets murdered. Right?

[Dylan McDowell]

He does.

[Matt Klik]

And Drew Beckmore lets out a scream.

[Dylan McDowell]

Like, she scream at each other.

[Matt Klik]

Yeah. She's. She's Claire Danes in Romeo plus Juliet, and he's Leo in Romeo plus Juliet. And I'm like, girl, you just started to like him four seconds ago. Right. I just remember seeing that being like, I'M sorry, what movie are watching? I will say in its. In its defense, it is the rise of Demi Moore. And she. Speaking of an actress who knows the film she is in and rising to the challenge. She does the damn thing.

[Connor McDowell]

She does. She absolutely does. I love that movie.

[Dylan McDowell]

We should read Last Cameo. Carrie Fisher is in it as Mother Superior. Anyways, we'll move on.

[Matt Klik]

I don't remember that at all.

[Dylan McDowell]

Yes, it's a blinker. You miss it. Cameo. It's actually like a five minute sequence. It's mostly narration about the creepy Thin Man's past because when he was a young boy, he went to a nunnery and they raised him and she's the Mother Superior there.

[Matt Klik]

And they were anti sex, which is why he's always pulling the hair out of women.

[Dylan McDowell]

I don't know.

[Connor McDowell]

They don't really explain why it's an inexplicable.

[Dylan McDowell]

Yeah, yeah.

[Connor McDowell]

But anyway, back to Spring Awakening.

[Matt Klik]

Well, to say, because Creepy Thin man sounds like one of the children from Spring Awakening when things don't go right for them as they grow older. What is a song that you keep coming back to in this show?

[Connor McDowell]

Okay, the one that, that I. And this is a deep cut because it's not this part. The part of it is not on the cast album. It is the final version of the song of Purple Summer. It's the beginning of solo for Ilsa. She has an extended, extended line. And it's, I think, the thesis statement of the show. It's about listening to children. It's children will listen vibes. But it's basically acknowledging, like, hey, kids are just figuring all this out. They need to be guided. They also need to have the freedom to explore. They have, you know, they had their whole lives ahead of them, hopefully. And one day, all of these bad things that have happened to them or these bad thoughts, these hard things will not be so hard. And they will get to experience the peace and beauty of life that lays ahead of them. The song of purpose.

[Dylan McDowell]

You got me weepy.

[Connor McDowell]

And she so. And that's what. I love that part of the song. I don't know why. I mean, I loved when Stephanie D. Would sing it on the spring weekning first national tour that we saw, I think five times. But I love that it ends with Ilsa because, well, she's the only character that kind of survives at the end, hypothetically. But also she's a dream in a way. She's a legend.

[Matt Klik]

There are some who still live at the end of that show, but I think she is the One who has probably been through the most, even though a lot of it happens before the play and a lot of it off stage. But she's sort of the ultimate survivor of the show for sure.

[Connor McDowell]

And even her presence in the show.

[Matt Klik]

She'S like the most like, together.

[Connor McDowell]

And her presence in the show. I love this theory that maybe she is or isn't there in many of the scenes. I mean, in the dark. I know. Well, we know that she's. It's. She's not with Marta when Ilsa's singing. And when she appears to Moritz, is it a figment of his imagination? He, of course, had heard about her, but is she really there? And I kind of love the idea they never look at each other in the direction.

[Dylan McDowell]

That's how Michael Mayer directed it. For that reason.

[Connor McDowell]

Was she there? And I love that she's kind of this legend who's maybe gotten through the hard bits. And the song of Purple Summer itself is such a beautiful finale. It really. Because you do go through all this darkness, but I love that you see all the kids on stage and the doors open up and Melchior comes back through and he's ready to dive into the rest of his life on a hopeful note. And I just think it's a beautiful song, even though I have no idea what A Purple Summer is. No one actually does.

[Dylan McDowell]

Yeah, no one does.

[Matt Klik]

Well, okay, so, Dylan, don't. Don't think we were forgetting about you. You're. You're coming up next, girl.

[Dylan McDowell]

Okay.

[Matt Klik]

I took to Instagram last night as I was watching the documentary in prep and then watching the. The Boot of the OBC again, which, by the way, for anyone who hasn't watched the documentary, I have some notes. But overall, it is a very effective documentary. The number one highlight and something that I'm not. It's a double edged sword where I'm like, I don't think this is absolutely necessary to the story we're telling. However, I can't imagine my life anymore not knowing this information is the moment when Lea Michele and Jonathan Groff talk about the day she showed him her vagina because he asked. And it's specifically because Jay Groff was like, I didn't quite know where the clitoris was.

[Connor McDowell]

We actually asked Chris Rodriguez about it when she came back to do our show in November, and we were like, had you heard this story before? Like, did they talk? Did you know this happened? And she goes, no, I did not know that they did this. But was I surprised that it happened? Absolutely not. Absolutely not. I had A feeling. But what's funny is, as we learned in the doc, Jonathan didn't come out of the closet until a month after Spring Awakening ended. But he's telling. He's like, you know, fully in his early 20s, telling his BFF Leah, I don't know what a vagina looks like.

[Matt Klik]

But he.

[Connor McDowell]

She's supposed to be under the assumption that he's not gay. I don't know. It's like a funny moment. But I had plenty of those when I was closeted too, so I'm not.

[Matt Klik]

Yeah, Jonathan in Spring Awakening was a bit of a glass closet situation. And this. We'll weave in and out of this rather than do sections. Welcome to the podcast. We have no structure, but so I was, you know, again, I was a theater kid in the city and I. I eventually actually did like the first open call that Spring Awakening did when the show was open and might have gotten called back once or twice. It's fine. Didn't book, but it's okay. We're not bitter. We're not. We ate better. But at the time that the show was first on Broadway and it was still the obc, there were one or two cast members who I did not know, but had one degree of separation from through teachers or friends or whatnot. And again, this is sort of like the double edged sort of seeing, you know, inside the room where it happens. You hear some things that are super awesome and some things are, like, questionable. And one person in the cast was like, oh, yeah, Jonathan and I, like, go back to his apartment all the time, hang out with his quote unquote roommate, and do Carol Channing impressions all day long. And the whole. And it's, you know, because everyone's being respectful. No one's like, jonathan, what are you doing? But everyone's just kind of looking at each other being like, okay, so whenever he's ready, he'll tell us. Like, it was. It was very much. Everyone knew. Absolutely everybody knew. It's not that he was in denial, it's just that he wasn't saying anything. And in his. And again, in his defense, it was a time where, like, when you came out as an actor, that's all you got cast to do.

[Connor McDowell]

Yeah.

[Matt Klik]

And. And he was right. Because when he did eventually, like, come out even more publicly, because there was a moment in 2009 when the hair revival was on Broadway and Jonathan Groff and Gavin Creel were on the steps of the Capitol marching for marriage equality.

[Dylan McDowell]

Right.

[Matt Klik]

And everyone was like, excuse me, is Jonathan Groff out of the Closet now. And then it became this whole thing. Like, there was an article about how, like, well, gay actors can't play straight because we all know they're gay. And they, like, listed Jonathan as the number one issue. My point being Purple Summer. I did a poll and I said, everyone, what the fuck does Purple Summer mean? Does anyone know what these lyrics mean? And there were three options. Yes, I do know, and I will DM you. The second one was, lol, no, something about corn and shit. And then the third one was, who cares? It's a bop, and lyrics are stupid now. 48% said they had no idea, thought it was not corn. 45% said it's a BOP, who cares? And only 7% said they absolutely knew. That said, many of the people who said they had no idea were people who have been in Spring Awakening either on Broadway or on the national tour. Again, not naming names, but one person who has been in Spring Awakening professionally in one of the two major productions on Broadway, again, not saying who, sent me a message. And he said, do you actually want to know? And I said, yes, please. This wasn't a joke. And these. This is what he said. Purple Summer is a flower. Didn't know that. According to Steven Sater, Purple Summer represents the time of maturation, a time when the fields will yield crops and the horses bear foals. Again, it is the time when the painful spring of adolescence reaches the maturity of summer, similar to what Connor was saying. A perfect coda to the show that we have just watched. A poetic it gets better, if you will. I had a few people DM me similar things. My only thing was they're like, you know, how the painful hardships of winter will melt away to a beautiful summer. And I didn't say this to them because I love my fans, but I did have a moment where I was like, you know that winter doesn't go into summer.

[Dylan McDowell]

Yes.

[Matt Klik]

There is a whole season in between. One might even say the title of the show we are discussing. I shall know the wonder. I will sing the song of sh. It's essentially, it gets better. And I think in the documentary, Seder talks about, like, purple being sort of like the color of a bruise. So you're bruised, but you're gonna heal and you'll move on. And.

[Connor McDowell]

Yes.

[Matt Klik]

Yeah, it's all freshman lit, and we're not mad about it. Dylan. Yeah. Song you come back to all the time.

[Dylan McDowell]

You know, I. This is a mostly no Skips album for me, and I have to say it changes constantly. But I will say The Guilty Ones is probably my. My favorite song. I'm such a ballad queen.

[Matt Klik]

I just love.

[Dylan McDowell]

I think Leah's voice has never sounded better than on that album.

[Matt Klik]

It's so gentle.

[Dylan McDowell]

It's this gentle part of her voice, and I just think it really captures so much of the show. And it was a song that was later added, but it is just so beautiful to me. And the staging is incredible. In the original staging that was on Broadway, it's this Act 2 opener sort of interlaced with a church sermon, and it's them kind of grappling with, what did we just do? Should we feel terrible? But it's a way. From what I've learned over the years, it was a way for the writers to communicate that it wasn't rape and that they both feel good about what happened. And even though their bodies might be guilty for committing this sin, that their minds and hearts are still comfortable with what happened because maybe it was love or something new.

[Matt Klik]

Yeah, it's a.

[Connor McDowell]

It's.

[Matt Klik]

Again, it's. It's. It's much more of a gray area. There's. Again, it's. There's the political element of knowledge that makes it tricky, but it is consensual in a lot of ways. Guilty Ones. First of all, that's the nickname for Spring Awakening fans, as we know.

[Connor McDowell]

Absolutely.

[Dylan McDowell]

They're in the room with us now.

[Matt Klik]

All of. All of the guilty ones are here. Everyone.

[Dylan McDowell]

Yes, in a way.

[Matt Klik]

In a way. That was perhaps one of the only songs. So when I saw it on on the B Way with the original cast, no big deal. I'm just. I'm just old and I lived in the city. It's fine.

[Connor McDowell]

But you city kids, Us city kids.

[Matt Klik]

I'm telling you, that was the only number when I saw. I. So I saw it pretty soon after it opened to like a 70 full Eugene O' Neill theater. And there were a couple of. I went with my grandmother, by the way, God bless Nanny, for this is the same woman who took me to Piazza and Caroline or Change. So she like, oh, good woman. Cultured. She is a cultured fuck. We. She loved it. I remember she loved it so much. And I was like, it's cute. But the people around us, they didn't. They couldn't get on board with the choreography. I remember. So, like, they liked the song Touch Me, but they didn't like the whole, like, boob circling thing. And the only number that they actually all audibly started to laugh at was Guilty Ones. And I don't know why I Think it was just the visual of Lea Michelle having just been plowed out of her mind and Jonathan Groff asking if, you know, if she's too wobbly or whatever. And her immediate reaction is to pull out a microphone. I understood it. I got the vocabulary, especially because at that point, we'd seen it done so many times, but everyone else around me was like, girl, let's talk. And she was like, you know, about to sing a song.

[Dylan McDowell]

It's.

[Matt Klik]

It's that. It's that joke that a lot of people think about musicals that I assume Schmigadoon loves to do. I've never actually watched it, but the whole like, well, why don't you just talk to me? Well, I'd rather sing, but it is a beautiful song. I think the only. The score's only crime, musically, is when Ms. Michelle is belting ease. It is with a bunch of other people. I need more Lea Michele belted ease on her own. She sounds great. And the harmonies in Mama who Bought Me A Priest are iconic. But I'm like, I'm sorry, I need some F's solo for Ms. Michelle, please.

[Dylan McDowell]

That's the thing. The crime to me is whispering, which it has never sat right with me as a. I mean, it sort of serves as an 11 o' clock number specifically for VendLA, because there isn't really an 11 o' clock number otherwise. I think those you've known is the finale. And then Song of Purple Summer is the sort of postscript epilogue and whispering. Although the plot moves forward in a series of sort of sequences throughout the song, it is not necessarily a bop. It's not, you know, it doesn't necessarily. She doesn't really peak at any point throughout the song. It's just more so a park and bark about everything she's gone through throughout the show. And I wonder if maybe some.

[Connor McDowell]

Maybe some belting something. If she had a better final moment alive, I think that maybe Leah would have been nominated for a Tony.

[Matt Klik]

Well. Well, yeah, you know what? Fuck it. Let's get into it. I don't care. This is a natural progression. Let's talk about these Tonys for a second.

[Connor McDowell]

Yes.

[Matt Klik]

This was what we might call a rather stacked leading actress here. We. And also, I want to just tell everyone this now, because this is going to come up in conversation for next week's episode. We love to undermine a front runner. We love to question a sure thing. For example, when Hamilton was out the night of the Tonys, a number of people I was with who were just like. But like, what if Hamilton doesn't win? Like, what if so many people are just sure it's going to win that they were like, oh, I'll vote for Shuffle Along. Meanwhile, I was like, I would love nothing more. I love Hamilton. But I was also like, I want Shuffle on to get recognition. But that was the year where it was Christine Ebersol or die. It was. There was no one else. There was absolutely no one else. But I don't know if either of you were brave enough to look at the message boards yet this year. The message boards loved, loved, loved to say, I don't know. There's Donna Murphy in Love Music. I don't know. There's Audra and 110 in the shade. And it's like, okay, we've got Donna Murphy in Love Music, which, you know, I saw and I still don't remember it. We've got Audra in 110 in the shade. Babe did a cartwheel, an aerial flip. A cartwheel with no hands. Iconique. However, it is a roundabout revival. It's a little difficult to win in those. Then we had Laura Bell Bundy, Legally Blonde, once again, iconic. The only other place where Leah could have really gotten in was to replace Deborah Monk in Curtains. Now, here's where this is a little tricky. There was another actress that year who was not nominated. Do we know who it was?

[Dylan McDowell]

I do. Well, there was two actually, in my opinion. One was Kristin Chenoweth for the Apple Tree.

[Matt Klik]

Yes. And the other was.

[Dylan McDowell]

And the other was Mary Poppins, which was Ashley Brown. Yeah.

[Matt Klik]

Yes.

[Connor McDowell]

This is a stacked theater season.

[Matt Klik]

Absolutely. People are talking about this, like, leading actress in the musical lineup for this year. And I'm like, oh, honey, you haven't seen nothing yet. This is 5 inches compared to the 12 inch dick that 2007 was. Ashley Brown, I remember, was considered a bit of a disappointment only because all of us had heard Laura Michelle Kelly on the London cast recording. Who had won.

[Dylan McDowell]

She won the Olivier.

[Matt Klik]

Sure did. And rightfully so, because that bitch sings the house down on that score. Like, it sounds so fucking easy. Caramel melted all over my face. I'm just like, sing me to my death. Lauren Michelle Kelly and Ashley, I remember everyone thought was a little too. Not harsh, but like hard. Like just a little too Broadway. It wasn't quite British enough there. Wasn't quite effervescent.

[Dylan McDowell]

I think Belter. When I think Ashley Brown, I don't necessarily think light and airy. Julie Andrews, Laura Michelle Kelly.

[Matt Klik]

Yes. And not her fault. She made the role work for her, but it wasn't the natural fit that it should have been. But still, leading lady in a title role of a major hit. Disney was a musical nominee. And then we had Chenoweth, who was the sole reason that Apple Tree came to Broadway from Encores and, like, one of the hardest roles in musical theater. One of the most like shadow of the original looming over at Barbara Harris and the Apple Tree. So for Chenoweth not to get in, it's. I'm like, I hear you, Dylan. And, like, I do think I agree with you as well, Connor. Like, if Velma had one more, like, before I go moment, I think Leah would have had a shot. But it's a little hard to say for sure when even Chenoweth couldn't get him.

[Connor McDowell]

But let me plead for something Lead.

[Matt Klik]

Away, baby I don't know.

[Dylan McDowell]

Okay.

[Connor McDowell]

Vendla is technically the leading female performance in the show, but I would say she's got as much stage time as Moritz and maybe less to do vocally even than Moritz, because she doesn't have Touch Me solos. She doesn't habitually. You know, there are things I don't even think she's sing.

[Matt Klik]

Yeah.

[Connor McDowell]

So I wonder if they could have figured out a way to put Vendla in featured actress.

[Dylan McDowell]

I love the category fraud, but if.

[Connor McDowell]

You'Re looking at who has stage time on this, and she's in it just as much as Moritz, why not? It's Melchior's story.

[Matt Klik]

Well, then, on that note, let us look at featured actress in a musical, shall we? We have the winner, Mary Louise Wilson in Grey Gardens, who was never not going to win. We have Orfeh in Legally Blonde.

[Dylan McDowell]

Amazing.

[Connor McDowell]

My winner, my winner, my winner, my winner.

[Matt Klik]

Oh, well, you're young. We have. We have Rebecca Luker in Mary Poppins, which I remember at the time, everyone was like, oh, okay. No one was mad about it, but it was a little odd she got to sing.

[Dylan McDowell]

Being Mrs. Banks. I mean, and that's just, you know.

[Matt Klik]

And it ended. It felt right. No, Again, no one was mad about it, but it felt more like Rebecca Luker. We like you. We don't necessarily love your show. Yes. So it was Orfeh, Mary Louise Wilson. Rebecca Luker, I think Karen Ziemba for Curtains, who. I remember she had a major dance piece in Act 1 of Curtains that just was like, reminding us all that she was Karen Ziemba. And then who was our fifth? Charlotte. Charlotte.

[Dylan McDowell]

Yeah.

[Matt Klik]

Chorus Line. Yeah. Which that is technically where Cassie should be. Talk about category fraud. Donna McKechnie right.

[Dylan McDowell]

Because the. Donna McKechnie won for leading.

[Matt Klik]

Sure did. Sure, sure did.

[Dylan McDowell]

You know, but. But then we wouldn't have gotten the incredible win for Emily Gilmore in. In featured back then for.

[Matt Klik]

Absolutely. And Kelly Bishop deserved that Tony. Sheila.

[Dylan McDowell]

Right? It's Sheila.

[Matt Klik]

Sheila Bryant. She really. Sheila Rosemary Bryant, which she really hates.

[Dylan McDowell]

Right, right. Of course.

[Matt Klik]

Yes.

[Connor McDowell]

Ukraine is amazing.

[Matt Klik]

Thank you. I had no friends growing up, so.

[Connor McDowell]

But I don't know. I don't know. Was Leah good in the show? I didn't get to see her, so I don't know.

[Matt Klik]

That's the other thing I remember at the time, like, so, Leo. Like, she was on the posters with J. Groff. Right. Like, they. It was them. They were the. The marketing of the show, and they were the face of the show for a very long time. So there was sort of a feeling of Leah, Jonathan and John Gallagher Jr. Were like the trio. And I know she got a drama desk nomination, but it still kind of felt like everyone was really just talking about the boys more than they were talking about her in terms of performances. And rewind.

[Connor McDowell]

Even though she bared her boobies. Wow, that's really something.

[Matt Klik]

Listen, Kelly o' Hara did the same thing, and she didn't get nominated for Dracula, so sometimes you don't show your chesticles if you want to be taken seriously.

[Connor McDowell]

But Ivy Lynn did it in the Bombshell musical on Smash and ultimately, spoiler alert, won the Tony, so. But anyway.

[Matt Klik]

But she did have to live in the Smash multiverse, and I don't know if that's really a win.

[Connor McDowell]

Tough to digest that one, Matt. Tough.

[Matt Klik]

A world where Katherine McPhee is considered special. I don't know if I want to live in that world. Mama who bore me Mama who gave me no way to handle things who made me so sad Mama, the weeping Mama, the angels. Anywho, watching the bootleg again, I don't know if I necessarily think Leah was great in the show. Her acting has improved a lot since Spring Awakening. Have you seen her in. In the Girl that is funny.

[Dylan McDowell]

We have. She.

[Connor McDowell]

She gave the performance of the season in Funny Girl.

[Matt Klik]

Oh, yeah. No, she's incredible in the show and my season.

[Connor McDowell]

I mean, yeah, it's a new season and she's still giving, you know, any.

[Matt Klik]

Any season. It's. I. So this is. Okay. This is another part we can talk about, and we will tread lightly because we know people. We don't want to put anyone on blast. We don't share any information that no one consented to sharing. But you know, sure. Leah has had a lot of backlash against her for a lot of things that it came out of the woodwork about her behavior over the last 20ish years, a lot of which, honestly, I was not there for. But I have confirmation from many sources. True. I love people learning and growing and becoming better, and I like to think that that's what's happening with her. So I did go into the show being like, okay, Leah, let's see. And then by the end of, like, 20 minutes in tax one, I was like, this is the performance of the year. This performance lasts five years. But there was. There were issues with the original company of Spring Awakening. And I'm not gonna. I'm not gonna spill too much tea. All I'll say is there is something. Immediate success is really difficult to grapple with, especially if you're young, and that cast was young. And while the show did not take off commercially for a while, it found its fan base very early. And that fan base was very passionate. And I hate to use this word because I find it overused, but it was rather toxic. Oh, yeah, yeah. As many fandoms can be. But that was a. That was a fandom similar to the Rent fandom, where it was like, understudies were considered lesser than or some other studies were considered better than. So if somebody was off and the understudy was on, it was either you, like, oh, everyone rushed to see the show because Blank is out, and we all know that they're terrible. Go see the understudy who, like, should be bumped up anyway. And, like, very vocal about it, sending these kind of things to the cast. And then the cast again, like. And this is, like, one of my notes about the documentary. Groff Sauce was like, you know, it's crazy. The success didn't go to any of our heads. I'm like, groff sauce. I'm sure it didn't go to your head, because you are.

[Connor McDowell]

I clocked that moment too, Matt. I clocked it too. I was like, he is blissfully ignoring. It had to.

[Matt Klik]

It did.

[Connor McDowell]

I don't. I don't care what they're saying. It had to. And I don't blame them for it or judge them for it. They were the toasts of the town.

[Matt Klik]

They were.

[Connor McDowell]

And a lot of them, you know, what still are. That's the crazy part.

[Matt Klik]

We don't begrudge them on it now because we're all older, we're all wiser, and we look back. To quote Katya, if you're not looking back on the previous year. Embarrassed. You're doing it wrong.

[Connor McDowell]

And you know, you know, Leah's journey is a lot like Melchior's. You know, we make mistakes, we stumble, we fumble. We might miss, mistreat others, allegedly. But at the end of the day, don't we all deserve a redemption and enter that purple summer? So. Exactly.

[Matt Klik]

Well, and again, it's. It's braver and more impressive to grow from a toxic place and become a healthier person. And if we don't allow people the room to do that, then who knows what damage we're doing? I don't. And this isn't even like, to put Leon. Blast. I'm really talking about, like, the show at large. And it's not just the original company. It was the replacements, it was the national tour. And again, not going to speak out of school, but I am friendly with a lot of people involved with that show. And because I've been known to be opinionated and not afraid to say things, a lot of them will come to me and be like, you cannot say it's me, but I have tea for you. I'm not, I'm not sharing anything because I do think, like, the moment I share any of it, people be like, oh, I know exactly who that is.

[Connor McDowell]

So were you telling your Spring Awakening affiliated, you know, friends, like, hey, I'm doing essay on the pod. What should I stay away from? Or what should I say? Do you have any fun scoop for me? Did you, did you reach out to sort of your circle for that?

[Matt Klik]

I didn't even have to. I. When I posted on my story yesterday, I posted my story yesterday about the documentary. They all fled in my DMs, and I was like, do you want anything to share? And they're like, not to share, but I'll tell you. And some of them were a little more guarded. Some of them fully said stuff. But, like, you know, that show was a blessing to everyone involved with it. Right? It launched so many careers, it opened doors and, and amazing things. But there is a little bit of a Vaseline over the lens in that documentary, especially with Groff. And I think because with Groff, like, he is truly an angel on this earth and like the one, maybe the one person in all of Broadway that you will not find a single person in this world who has a bad interaction with him. Even the nicest person you can think of, there's like a disgruntled usher or merch person or someone at the stage. Or it's like, oh, like they caught them on A bad day. And it's like, ah, Sharon Renee Scott wouldn't sign my playbill because she had a head cold, that bitch. Like, it's even something as simple as that. J. Groff is the one person where you'll never gonna. You're never gonna hear that. But it is a little like, I'm sure it wasn't bad for you, babe, but like it. All it takes is one little poke. And the only reason I bring this up is because it's ironic. Connecting A2 Spring Awakening, which is the whole. We don't like to talk about the things that make us uncomfortable, the things that feel unpleasant, but you kind of have to if you're going to make it through. Right, Right.

[Dylan McDowell]

Totally. Yeah. And, you know, for whatever happened back then, I think that when they reunited, it was, you know, last year, two years ago for the, for the documentary. They were adults now, you know, they'd lived whole lives and many of them were still in high school. I mean, a few of them were still in high school when Spring Awakening was even on Broadway. And, you know, of that main group, I have to believe that, you know, they all had to come up to come together on a certain common ground to do that reunion. You see pictures of a lot of them being moms now and a lot of them still being friends and things like that. There's people you don't see in those photos that maybe were more out of the spotlight, like those springs and understudies and people like that who, you know, obviously weren't getting the huge attention at the stage door or things or maybe fan letters. But certainly everyone had their fan. You know, someone was some. Was everyone's. How to put this? Got that last bit. There was someone was someone else's favorite at all times. You know what I mean? Everyone had their faves in the cast and so I definitely think no one was probably ignored. But I know there are certain people that we've even had on our show who talk about being in the first replacement cast of Spring Awakening and the fans being horrible to them and saying things like, you weren't as good as so and so, or we miss the way that Remy Zakin would sing this line or whatever.

[Matt Klik]

Yeah.

[Dylan McDowell]

So it's just like, you know, people don't know how to talk. And I think that the guilty ones environment created this insane virtual stage door community that even I, at a young age was like, oh, you don't walk up to someone at a stage door and say, so where. Where were you on your vacation for two Weeks or, oh, we heard that you, you know, are, you know, gluten free or, you know, like, weird things like that. It's like all the lines were sort of torn down because of the guilty ones. And I don't know.

[Matt Klik]

Yeah, so in the Ren episode, we kind of talked about this. Like, that was the show where fandom changed, Broadway fandom changed. And there was. And I think part of that is because of the Internet, right? Where it was no longer just, oh, you liked the show and you saw it when you could. It was, now I got to know everything about the people in the show. Now I have. Now I have, like, ownership of the material and the roles and the company members. And that just kind of got worse and worse. And Spring Awakening, I feel like, was sort of the crystallization of stage door fandom culture as we know it today. As Dylan was saying, you know, of. It's not just, you have to have an actor in the show you like. It's, oh, I need to know everything about them. I need to know what their favorite candy is. I want to know who they're dating. I want to send them gifts. And again, I. I don't love yucking anyone's yum, depending on the yummy yum. If your yum is finding Neverland, spoiler alert, I will absolutely yuck it for you.

[Dylan McDowell]

But I have heard you talk about.

[Connor McDowell]

This on your podcast before.

[Matt Klik]

That's how you know she listens. Kids, you hate it. I do really hate it. It's. There are shows that I don't think are very good, but I recognize that effort was made. And it's so difficult to make a show right. It just. It. It takes so much time and effort, and amazingly talented people have made bad shows in the past. It's. No. People rarely try to make a bad show by design. I get angry if a show isn't good, and I feel like no actual effort was put in. If I feel like it was done by committee and it was purely done to, like, become profitable. And Finding Neverland is the number one example of the last, like, 20 years I can think of. Like, I sat there and I went, no one tried to make this a good musical. They just tried to make it a marketable musical. And I was furious. But the glitterstorm was great. Laura Michelle Kelly died like a pro. Well, I think that's what's cool about.

[Connor McDowell]

Spring Awakening is that it's already a great musical. And the subsequent productions have all been so received positively. But, like, the messaging is still getting out there. But in such Inventive ways. I mean, the 2015 revival, where they incorporated American Sign Language into it and they. They tweaked it and added multiple actors playing different parts. And I think that that's the sign of a great revival on a great show telling the same story, but in an interesting way that we just saw a couple years ago, but now we're thinking about it newly. And I think that's what's so cool about Spring Awakening and it. It's the life it's had since 2006.

[Matt Klik]

Yeah, I think I. I have. So one of my issues with the show is at my older, cynical age, because I've gotten older and I've gotten more cynical. Much as I love it, I think it's. Musically speaking, I agree with Dylan. I think it's pretty much musically a no skip. And.

[Connor McDowell]

And to that really quick. To that point, the other. The one song that is a bop that I did. I wanted to say this really quick.

[Matt Klik]

Yeah.

[Connor McDowell]

Touch Me Slay.

[Matt Klik]

Sure.

[Connor McDowell]

Absolutely incredible. The vocals, the moment, the emotion, the swell, the choreography, the everything it is.

[Dylan McDowell]

The lighting moments.

[Matt Klik]

I think it's back to back with my junk. Right.

[Connor McDowell]

Yeah.

[Dylan McDowell]

Basically, there's a. There's a book scene in between, but yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Matt Klik]

Musically thing in their back to back, those two numbers, I think they're actually pretty similar in terms of how they build with the whole ensemble, but in very different ways. And I am a big fan of the vocal arrangements for both of them and how they. They build. Lyrically speaking, I think my favorite song is Of Living. It has. My favorite lyric in the show is Moritz's beginning one, where he's singing about the angel, give me that hand, please and the itch you can't control I'll teach you how to handle all the magic in your soul oh, we'll work that. Sorry, no. A sadness in your soul we'll work that silver magic Then we'll aim it at the wall she said love may make you blind, kid But I wouldn't mind at all Now I love that lyric for many ways. The way that it very subtly discusses masturbation and where Moritz chooses to finish. But also, love may make you blind. Do we know what that's referring to?

[Dylan McDowell]

Wouldn't they say that if you. If you masturbated or things like that, you would. Your hands would grow hair on them, or you might go blind or things might happen to you. You know, there's all these different things.

[Connor McDowell]

Wait, it's not to the Netflix reality dating competition Love is Blind.

[Matt Klik]

It was Steven Sader warning us in the past. He's like, this is what's coming in the future.

[Connor McDowell]

Soothsayer.

[Matt Klik]

Soothsayer. And then that's why the original title for Song of Purple Summer was actually called Heartstopper. And Satyr is like, no, I'm gonna let them be surprised by that one.

[Dylan McDowell]

It gets better. I love it.

[Matt Klik]

I do. I love. I love that lyric, though. I think it's so clever and cheeky. And I know also, it had a lot of criticisms at the time for the forced rhymes or false rhymes, which I get. And some of them I do agree with. Every now and then there's just one. Like, there's like. There's a word that actually rhymes, like, just like within, like an inch that you could have grabbed. But for the most part, I feel like it's, you know, paralleling pop music, right? Where it's like, it's the rhyme is the vowel, not the actual word. They're rhyming. It's matching vowel sounds. Like T. Swift loves to do that. It's always like, oh, yes, she does.

[Dylan McDowell]

You're talking to two Swifties as well.

[Connor McDowell]

So wait, I don't. I feel bad for interrupting you earlier to say, like, touch me is amazing. Blah, blah. But you were saying that as you've gotten older and more cynical how you feel about the show.

[Matt Klik]

There's so much about the show that I find very beautiful. I find sometimes, and this is just. It's not necessarily the fault of the show, but rather that it's just catnip for this kind of style of performing. It's very easy to make Spring Awakening self indulgent because it is a very hard on sleeve, emotional show. And it's also very abstract. And so there's different ways to present it and different ways to act it. And, you know, we. We've all performed. We're all performers. We know performers. Nobody loves to showcase that they're feeling something more than a performer. You know, there may be an actor who I saw on a Broadway revival of a play a few years back in an acclaimed revival that they did not get nominated in. And they did something that gave me such Spring Awakening vibes, but it was done earnestly. And it was the hand to face down to neck, down to chest, down to stomach, of just like, I am feeling so much right now. And who was this in what revival?

[Connor McDowell]

Oh, no, Barf.

[Matt Klik]

Oh, he didn't mean it sexually, but it's more like, oh, the emotion. Yeah, the emotions are so overwhelming. They have manifested in my hand and my hand must caress my whole body. And.

[Connor McDowell]

Oh, that is such, like, lazy acting, in my opinion, 1,000%.

[Matt Klik]

But that is so easy to do in Spring Awakening. And so what I love about the original production that I. And I've talked about this on the podcast many years back, so y' all will have to go back, like, five years to find this. I did not love the last revival, not for. Not because of the asl, which I thought was so well incorporated and really did bring a new vibe out to the show and new messaging, which I loved. It was just on a technical musical theater level. I found it sometimes indulgent in a sense that Michael Mayer knew not to linger too often on too many moments, because if you do, you're going to lose your audience in the esotericism of the show. It's like, we got to keep things going. For example, when Venla as Lea Michelle runs off stage to get her a bobo, they don't dwell on it very much, because in something like that, like, it's the heat of the moment, like, there's no time to lose. We got to get this kid out of you. And so it's very frightening. And then I'll never forget in the revival, because it was, like, the third time they did this in a row in, like, 10 minutes. When they throw Venla off for the abortion, everything stops, and her mom, like, walks backstage, and everyone's looking at her being like, you've just sent your daughter to her grave. Which would be moving if they hadn't done it, like, three times prior in Act 2 alone. And I would. And that was just.

[Dylan McDowell]

I forgot about this.

[Matt Klik]

Yeah. And I just remember sitting there being like, see? Like, I need. This is where. And Michael Arden is a very good director, and I want to say that now because everything he's done since Spring Awakening, and I. Again, I don't think he did a bad job of Spring Awakening. There was a lot I liked in it. But then once on the sideline, I was like, oh, you figured your shit out. Like, you're. You're no longer running into the issues that I had before. And then Christmas Carol was so divine, and I'm looking forward to Parade, but that was something. I was like, someone needed to sit there with Michael and be like, okay. In order for this moment to land on a musical theater chemical level, where it's just like, add the ammonium, add the sulfur, whatever. I don't go to school for chemistry, but, you know, where it's like, it's balancing, like, okay, for this moment to land, we need to cut the previous two totally.

[Dylan McDowell]

I think what you were mentioning about sort of an indulgent lending itself to indulgence. I wonder if, when a production is so memorable in its original staging that it lends to people always trying to replicate that. And I think that that's an example, being the choreography. And the idea of gestures has been something that I think the show has had. I mean, then obviously lending itself to American Sign Language, which is all gestures and. And facial expressions. But the idea of. I've never seen a production since that hasn't had Vandela touching her body, like doing the swirl around her breasts standing on a chair. I've seen that in every single. And I used to seek out productions of Spring Awakening to see, you know, in Ohio locally all the time. My boyfriend just did it a year ago. And every single time that happens, you see that. And then Touch Me involves a lot of that similar movement. And, I mean, Bill T. Jones obviously was very smart with what he did there, because it's about, you know, exploring oneself and doing it through gestures. But I think it's really. I don't know, I want us to find new ways of doing that as the show lives on and goes forward. Because it looks very imitation.

[Matt Klik]

Yeah. It might take a while, just because it's one of those things that has become so ingrained in the DNA. Similar like a Fosse show or Jerome Robbins show. And there's something magical to that of a work being so vital to a show's identity. But, you know, someone. Someone will come along who's never seen Spring Awakening before and find something new with it in the same way? You know, I'm looking. What if someone did, like, the most literal production of all time and it just took place in the actual woods and there's trees everywhere and concrete walls and all the good stuff. Yeah. Before I forget, we have to take another break. You're the top. Yeah. You're an arrow collar. You're the top. You're a Coolidge dollar. And we're back. Connor has went to the John, the Lou, if you will, while he's away. Dylan, let's. Let's gab. Yeah. So we talked about songs. What are moments in the show that really land with you, either comedic or dramatic or a specific character?

[Dylan McDowell]

I really love the levity, despite it being really deep. A lot of what Moritz is going through, I love the comedy that his character also brings. I think specifically the scene right before Touch Me when he's explaining this wet dream that he had the night before, or maybe it was a couple nights before, but then he read the essay that Melchior had written for him. And it's funny, but it's also. Because I think it's also relatable to many people, but it's also, you know, dark because it's really driving him. I mean, it's driving him to fail because he can't sleep, because he's afraid to dream for fear of this woman appearing to him and all of that. And so I think that those moments where it keeps it a little bit light is why, you know, it really helps balance it because otherwise it could be very dark. Like you mentioned about the original. Yeah, the original piece. And I think, you know, also the adult characters really help break it up in those different ways, especially if they really want to make them each memorable. Like, you know, if the instructor is different than the mother or and so forth. I don't know. You mentioned the Masked man earlier in the original production, and that was something that really, really fascinated me. And they had it up until the Atlantic production, and it was a character played by Michael Cerverus, and he would. He had songs. He was sort of lurking throughout the show in the background as opposed to just appearing at the very end. And I think that that character could in some ways still remain in the show if the adult man also played that role. But I don't know. They obviously had a good reason for removing the character for the Venla experience, but I don't know.

[Matt Klik]

Yeah, it's Venla coming back in the end of the show. It's similar to vibes of like in Titanic, how like all the passengers who died get to come back and sing one more time. There's just something very fulfilling. Les Mis. Yeah, it's. Les Mis is the no OG of doing that, but of it, you know, it's the difference between the show running for a year or two and then running for forever. It's the difference between Spring Awakening, the musical, maybe lasting to January, and then having a two year run of. So we were talking about the Masked man and Venla Connor. Are we back on what we were talking while you were away? Okay. We don't need you, we don't need a man. But yeah, it's. There's something very emotionally fulfilling about watching them, like getting a chance to come back and sing one more time, even if it's as a ghost. Musically, it's. Yeah, musically it's very fulfilling. And I mean, I like the idea that they had the Masked man originally and, you know, tried to incorporate him more. But I think, honestly, part of it. I mean, I would have to sit down with Sator and ask, like, whose idea it was to cut him completely. Because I think also there's the. We don't want to get rid of Cerverus. He's Michael Cerverus.

[Dylan McDowell]

Right.

[Matt Klik]

You know, I just. Even in the original play, I just don't think that the Masked man works. It's. It's such a forced and very convenient character to bring on at the last second and be like, you're struggling here. Let me tell you all the things no one told you before, which makes sense in a way, because, you know, one of the major themes of the play is all the adults will not say anything. And here comes some random adult who clearly is not really part of the society, probably has been exiled for reasons we'll never know, but because he doesn't adhere to the rules and to everyone's sort of suppressed mentality, he's willing to teach Melchior the ways of the world. And it's a little pat. I like the idea that Melchior. There's hope for Melchior simply just from the human connection of it all. Because you were talking about Dylan, about the booklet, the essay that he writes for Mortz to learn about human anatomy and sexuality. And it connects back to what I was talking about, how Melchior is someone who really doesn't understand that, like, the world is messier than just his ideas. And even if his ideal. Ideal ideology is politically correct, he's not enforcing it in a way that is empathetic. Like, yes, knowledge is power. Moritz should know about all these things, but he has to look at his friend and, like, understand that his friend is not mentally and emotionally in a place to have his whole world shattered by this knowledge. And it's. I know that. Yeah. And then the adults try to pin Moritz's suicide on Melchior's essay, and it's. Obviously, that's not what does it. But I don't think it helps Moritz in any way to learn about all this, because when he talks to Melchior about. And they go through Touch Me, like, Moritz leaves the stage, and we don't really ever see him in a. On solid ground ever again. He's always kind of rocking back and forth from that moment on. And Then There Were none, which is, first of all, talk about a goddamn bop. I fucking love that song.

[Dylan McDowell]

So good.

[Connor McDowell]

It hits. I remember, like, always loving it on the cast album. But it wasn't until there was like this live recording that they did at some event and it's the song Straight through and John Gallagher Jr's vocals. The rawness, the emotion. I was like, oh no. This in addition to having Melchior's mother in it, it's iconic as hell. But the song itself stands alone as this. This cathartic emotional rock mid tempo song.

[Matt Klik]

Yeah, no, it's great. I always felt that the original cast recording, well done as it is, really should have been a live recording a LA6. There's an energy that you're missing from the cast recording. There's a pristineness to the vocal performances which I enjoy because, you know, Lea Michele doesn't do rough vocals. But I want. I wanted some of that energy from the stage and it felt. It's a little pop albumy for me.

[Dylan McDowell]

It's also an incomplete album because they recorded it between Atlantic and Broadway, I believe. And there's lyrical differences. Purple Summer Touch Me has different lyrics at the beginning. The arrangement or the song order is different. Don't do Sadness comes before guilty ones on the album. But in reality it's the other way around. And so there's. It's just not. I don't know what was going on there. But yeah, it was just not fully. Maybe they just wanted to record it and get it out there before. As soon as they could.

[Matt Klik]

That then that's happened before. Where the album gets recorded early in hopes of promoting it once the show comes out. And it. It did help. Yeah. Like SpongeBob. Like a Vita. Honestly. But I wish that they recorded it live. Oh well. I'm gonna Quick like lightning round for both of you in terms of these songs. Mama who Bore Me. Immediate thought when you think of it.

[Dylan McDowell]

Oh, it's legendary. I feel like it's one of the songs. The people who don't necessarily know the show, they know the song. Mama who Bore Me Now.

[Matt Klik]

Mama who Bore Me Reprise Slay.

[Connor McDowell]

It's the only moment in the show that the girls get to slay. Like absolutely R.I.P. you know, they don't get to do it at all at any other point.

[Matt Klik]

No. Ever so true. I don't. I don't think anyone. Any girl in the show sings above a C After mom who Wore Me Reprise. I think it's. It remains relatively low after that. Wow.

[Connor McDowell]

Yeah. And none of the girls get to even speak and totally like they don't get to have their little. You know. Yeah. Or whatever they get. So.

[Matt Klik]

Yeah.

[Dylan McDowell]

It's weird. The Girls are very underwritten, like, especially Taya and Anna. And they really don't get a whole lot other than talking about what their uncles or whatever teach them or their life philosophies about hitting, to be fair.

[Matt Klik]

Well, actually, no, I guess so. Like, it's sort of an inverse because the boys. It's Georg, Ernst, Hanschen, and then who's the fourth? Otto. Otto is the mo. Is the underwritten of the four. Georg doesn't really have a ton, but he does have, like, two very big moments. And like, we remember, like, oh, Georg, he's the one at the piano, and he gets the big Touch Me solo. And then Ernst and Hanschen, obviously, like, they get their scene, which is incredible. And then it's sort of the inverse with the girls, where Ilsa and Marta both have moments, but Marta, honestly, after Marta's song, we don't hear much from her ever again. And Tea and Anna really don't get anything, which is a shame because, you know, we. There is a history of casting really strong actresses in those roles. And I'm like, I'm glad we have you to bring these characters to life, but you deserve more.

[Connor McDowell]

Yeah, for sure.

[Matt Klik]

Yeah, for sure. The first those.

[Connor McDowell]

I do like the scene where the girls are talking, though, and they're like, are you going? Are you wearing it to Greta Brandenburg's wedding? And they're, like, talking about, like, it's. There's such a wholesomeness to the way the girls talk. And maybe that's a little on the nose for how the boys and the girls talk. But I do appreciate those scenes. I especially appreciate seeing Venla in the scenes with the other girls, because otherwise it's really just her and her mother or her and Melchior.

[Matt Klik]

So, yes, it's good to see Venla with her peers and how she acts there. And it. It gives you an insight into sort of Venla's mentality throughout her life, right? Like, she does what she's told. She doesn't ask. She. Anytime she asks questions, you know, it's. It takes a lot of courage for her to do so. So she's the. She's not going to the wedding because Mama thought it was improper. The first. Those you've known.

[Dylan McDowell]

Jets known. Amazing. Amazing. I Want song.

[Matt Klik]

In many ways, it is an I want song. It is. It's very.

[Connor McDowell]

It's.

[Matt Klik]

It's very Disney. Brigadoon. He's not sitting on a tree stump. He's sitting in a chair probably made from a tree, and telling the audience, you watch Me. We watch.

[Connor McDowell]

We meet our anti hero.

[Matt Klik]

We really do. Bitch of living. Favorite. Favorite part of it.

[Dylan McDowell]

God, is this it? This can't be it. Towards the end.

[Connor McDowell]

Oh, chills every time.

[Dylan McDowell]

It's so good.

[Connor McDowell]

I always was titillated by their showering in gym class, though.

[Matt Klik]

Yeah, look so nasty. Bobby Mailer looks so nasty in those khakis. In the play, Hanchin is queer. In the musical, it feels a bit more like he's just sort of sexual. Does that make sense? Maybe that's just the way that the original actor played him. But it felt less like he was gay and more that he was just overly sexual. But maybe that's just how I'm viewing it.

[Dylan McDowell]

No, I completely agree. Because he wants power more than anything else.

[Matt Klik]

Yeah.

[Dylan McDowell]

And, you know, it's that idea that their children will ultimately become the Hitler Youth. And he's sort of this. This pre Hitler Youth, you know, he's going to grow up to raise a kid like that. You know, he's power hungry, you know, and he takes advantage of Ernst, who is just this sweet, sort of almost invisible person up until that point.

[Matt Klik]

Well, it's a similar situation to Venla and Melchior because Ernst does want what's going on in the scene, but Ernst doesn't have all the information. And if he had all the information, knowing the prop, we all, like, we as an audience are watching it knowing that Hanson's gonna, you know, drop Ernst the moment that Ernst goes, you know, face down, butt up. And like, it's. I'm sorry. This is the truth. It's the truth. It's the truth. Ernst is a sub.

[Connor McDowell]

Bottom.

[Matt Klik]

Absolutely. And it's not just because that's what Gideon Glick decided to make the character. That's just how the character is written. He wants to be a pastor, for Christ's sake. But if. I think if Ernst knew that, what he. Once he gives it up to Hanson that it's not gonna be like that ever again, he might not do it. Or maybe he would, but it has to be his choice. Right. And so Hanson does take advantage of. Advantage of Ernst in that respect. As someone who also, like, not that situation, but like, the number of times I made decisions not having the information, thinking I had the information, and then finding out after I made the decision. Oh, you did not tell me. Chapters five through ten, like, you end up with.

[Dylan McDowell]

It's relatable.

[Matt Klik]

It's very relatable. I think we all can, you know, understand that. Who is Hanshin pleasuring himself to do?

[Dylan McDowell]

We know It's a portrait of Desdemona who's. You know, from the play Othello. And she's dead. Or is it Hamlet? It's one of the two.

[Matt Klik]

It's Othello.

[Dylan McDowell]

Othello.

[Matt Klik]

That's what I thought it was. Because he's asking her, like, have you prayed tonight? I was like, does he have a portrait of an actress who played Desdemona? Like, I. It's a very interesting. Yeah. I don't know, you know, when.

[Connor McDowell]

When you could. Because Spring Awakening, we haven't mentioned this yet, but when. When it was staged in its original iteration on Broadway, there was onstage seating in which the cast and the sort of ensemble sat amongst you and came in and out and switched between seats. And it was immersive in that sense that you could be on stage if you purchase those tickets. And I remember sitting on stage and trying so hard to see the photo that Andy Mientis was holding during my junk. And it seemed like a very black and white, like, blurred out, but obviously a woman.

[Matt Klik]

Like, there were.

[Connor McDowell]

There were breasts.

[Matt Klik]

Yes, it's. Yes, he is. He is pleasuring himself to a woman for sure. Because he says Desdemona. But I can't imagine that he's like, ah, yes. I have the headshot of the woman who played Desdemona in the local production of Hamlet. I don't. It's just all very specific. I also. I know. Speaking of, like, the power thing. I don't know, like, the way he talks about her. It's very Dom Sub and. And talking about her. Talking about her murder. It's very strange. Yeah.

[Dylan McDowell]

Because she's dead, you know.

[Matt Klik]

Yeah. It's like he's pleasuring himself to the memory of her. I don't know. I also remember the original production. There was a blackboard at the back of the stage that listed all the numbers of the show in chalk, like, but in order. Yeah, maybe I'm making that up.

[Connor McDowell]

You're right. No, you're right. You are right.

[Matt Klik]

I'm right.

[Dylan McDowell]

Hear that?

[Connor McDowell]

You're right, Matt.

[Dylan McDowell]

Thank you.

[Matt Klik]

Listen, I'm always right, but am I? Like, I. Sometimes I'm just not convinced, but I am always right.

[Dylan McDowell]

Something I loved about this set, too, was that they recreated what happened at the Atlantic, which is, you know, the basement of a church, I believe, or sort of like downstairs of a church. And they kind of kept that vibe. You know, the show has a lot of references to these sort of, you know, institutions, whether it be government or church or, you know, school and that environment sort of Remained with the production that made it to Broadway and then toured and whatnot. It's sort of, you know, it looks very holy. I think in many ways that that intimate vibe that they went for.

[Matt Klik]

If there was one change we would make to the show other than giving Venla a don't forget me, Ivy Lynn moment before she dies of her abortion. What. Is there anything else we can think of where we like. I would want to maybe get a second pass at this moment.

[Connor McDowell]

That's. That's tough because although I do want more for the girls, I don't necessarily know if they need another number. I don't know if any of the other supporting characters need another number in general.

[Matt Klik]

So I wonder if I would. As much as I love Hanchen and Gayorg's lines and my junk, I wonder if I would just make it the girls or focus on the girls.

[Connor McDowell]

Okay.

[Matt Klik]

A bit more. I don't know. That might be like.

[Connor McDowell]

Could have been a scene.

[Matt Klik]

Yeah. I don't know if that's like win some and then you lose some. But if I were to give them more to do, I would expand my junk into a full on epic belt fest for the bitches.

[Connor McDowell]

I love that idea. Yeah. Dylan, what do you think? I mean, I think it's pretty. It's interesting because I was in preparing for this reading about the London revival that happened in 2021 and 2022, and Dylan. It was at the Almeida.

[Matt Klik]

Oh, cool.

[Connor McDowell]

And because Dylan asked me earlier, he was like, was it at the Almeida? And I'm like, yeah. And I read that they. They replaced the Guilty Ones with the song that was originally written for the show. There once was a pirate, which we all may have heard because I think Duncan Sheik recorded a version of it.

[Dylan McDowell]

Spotify. I just listened today.

[Matt Klik]

Yeah.

[Connor McDowell]

Did you? I didn't. I don't know much about this revival, but I think that's such a fascinating choice to swap in a cut song. And there was another song that originally was in the. In where the. Of living is a comet on its way. A comet on its way. They really love a metaphor in Spring Awakening.

[Dylan McDowell]

I think that's you and Satyr.

[Matt Klik]

Satyr's like, why? Why be literal when we can talk in metaphors. Metaphors and allegories. You know that Gavin Creel had done early workshops of the show with Liam.

[Dylan McDowell]

I love that connection.

[Matt Klik]

Yeah, it's a great connection. I mean, a lot of people. This show was in development for many years. You mentioned sort of, you know, from what I understand, Sater found the script in the late 90s. And he was sort of like a poet, playwright, ish, kind of moving about. And he met Duncan Sheikh. They both were in a Buddhist community.

[Dylan McDowell]

And they would chant together.

[Matt Klik]

Yeah. And he said to Chic, like, we should work on this together. And I guess it wasn't until they got Mayor on as director that they really kind of went hard with it because Chic was like, well, I don't really write musical songs. I write rock songs. And when they brought Mayor on board, Mayor was like, yeah, no, absolutely. Like, this is. This show needs rock music. And I think that's also what makes what will keep the show evergreen in a lot of ways, is you have 19th century Germany mixed with early to mid 2000s indie pop rock music. And it keeps the whole thing moving because this. The music doesn't sound super dated in a way that a lot of pop music of that era does, you know?

[Connor McDowell]

Sure.

[Matt Klik]

100.

[Connor McDowell]

That is such a good point. That is such a good point. I think, though, like, in looking at the track list and thinking about the show, I think it's really concise and there's, like, not much fat there. I wouldn't change much.

[Matt Klik]

No. And if you watch the boot of the original production, it clocks in a little under two hours without the intermission, which is a pretty tight musical. I mean, A Chorus Line is a little over two hours and intermissionless. And, you know, that's considered a pretty compact musical as well. It's not so much about, like, what I would add or what I would cut. I don't know. I think it's more just about, like. Or is there anything that I feel when the show's over that I might want a bit more of? And I think because the impact still is pretty strong at the end, the ends justify the means, but. But I don't know.

[Dylan McDowell]

I think, if anything, I've always felt very confused about the Melchior character because you have someone like Jonathan Groff playing the role, who is so sweet and demure in many ways. And obviously I didn't see him playing it, but I had trouble connecting him as this Rebe. And that's how everyone describes Melchior throughout. But I don't necessarily think we see him do anything rebellious other than explain the facts of life to Moritz and then obviously have sex with. Oh, well, then again, there is the beating scene, which is like a top. We haven't even touched upon that, which is a tough moment. But we haven't talked about either of Melchior's solos in this the Mirror of Blue Night and Left behind, which are honestly two of my favorite songs on the show as well. Just lyrically, what do you want to talk about?

[Matt Klik]

Go for it.

[Dylan McDowell]

I don't know. I think that Mirror Blue Night is interesting that it's like this late first act sort of soliloquy for Melchior to, like, reflect on how he's feeling because it's after the beating scene and it's before the hayloft scene, and he doesn't. It's that, you know, you're saying earlier, matt, it's like we sing because we can't speak anymore, but he's alone with his thoughts singing this, you know, ballad. But it's a very confusing lyric. I think it's one of the first ones that was actually written for the show. Beautifully written, but I don't think it necessarily clues us in as an audience, how he's really feeling, because the lyrics are so abstract.

[Matt Klik]

Well, he has the line, it's cold in these bones. I'm a man and a child. And that's the only. Well, to be fair, that's the only. The fact that that's the only lyric I can think of, I think, also comes to your point where that line is, I think, the crux of the song. I can't explain the rest of the song, though. But I also don't think we get that struggle from him in the writing of, you know, so many. So, like what? So many of these characters, they're going through puberty. And though. And there's a reason why Frank, Vatican and Satyr start the. The show with Venla wearing a dress that she once wore as a child. You know, I still feel like a kid. Why does it matter that my body is developing? What does that even mean, anyway? And it's that, you know, you have these. These urges, these hormones, and these thoughts that really aren't saying much about you. They're just sort of part of the. The transitional period, you know, as. As it's sort of. It's like a whole new rebooting of the system? And, you know, while that happens, there are some chromosomes that are getting rearranged. And thus you might have some weird thoughts, like, who is it Georg or Otto who, like, fantasizes, has a wet dream about his mother or something like that?

[Connor McDowell]

Oh, yeah.

[Matt Klik]

Just one of those things where it's not. It's not Otto's fault. That's just how hormones work. You. You're gonna fantasize about people that, you know, you don't Actually desire. It's just what's gonna happen him. And I think we don't necessarily see that struggle with Melchior because he's so, quote, unquote, all knowing his rebelliousness. Yeah, it's more just his knowledge because he's at. For the Act 1, he's sort of being rebellious within the system because he's such a good student and everyone likes him so much. He's kind of like this double agent. They don't realize the chaos that he's causing within the system because he's succeeding so well in the system. And then it's an Act 2 and everything goes to that, you know, and.

[Dylan McDowell]

They find the pamphlet and everything, and he does the reformatory.

[Matt Klik]

Yeah. And then when Moritz kills himself and. Yeah, the pamphlet. Yeah, the pamphlet does double damage because the school uses it as means to blame him for Moritz's death. And then when Venla is revealed to be pregnant, Melchior's parents find the pamphlet and go. So it's not just he was exploring. He knew exactly what he was doing and what the consequences were. We have to say. We can't think of him as a child anymore. He knew. So they said, okay, maybe.

[Connor McDowell]

Maybe they were right. I'm all of a sudden like, wait.

[Matt Klik]

They kind of were right?

[Connor McDowell]

Yeah, you know, as we're talking about, like, it's all the boys in the show that get to have pleasure and the only. You know, perhaps it's saying something about the writing or the time, etc. Etc. That the. The boys know how to masturbate. They are openly talking about these wet, sticky dreams. They know about, you know, how to jerk off in a circle or whatever, you know.

[Matt Klik]

Yeah.

[Connor McDowell]

But the girls, as far as they go with female pleasure, other than Venlo, which is another thing, all they do is kind of just talk about the crushes they have. And I almost wish the girls.

[Dylan McDowell]

Or the trauma they've suffered.

[Connor McDowell]

Or the trauma they've suffered. And then one of them dies, of course. And then one of them is ostracized from her community. And I wish there maybe was a moment in the show that allowed the girls to be. To speak on their urges a little bit more. And it doesn't have to be to each other. It could be like, yeah, you know.

[Matt Klik]

I think that's absolutely fair. There's.

[Dylan McDowell]

But is that Touch Me? I don't know. It's unclear because. No, none of the girls are speaking during Touch Me. And then they're all doing the choreography where they're touching themselves. So it's hard to say.

[Matt Klik]

There are times when the singing, I feel like, isn't literal. You know, it's. It's just communal energy that, you know, is resembling. Sorry, is representing what someone else is feeling. I had a talk with a female friend of mine about this, like, a few years ago, where. And this is just her experience. So by all. By no means does blank speak for all women, but we were talking about kind of of, you know, masturbation. And she was like, it's a little more effort for women because it's so inward and it's so sensitive and so complicated. It, like. Whereas with men, like, it's right there. And it might take you a minute as a teenager to figure it out, but you figure it out pretty quickly. It's a. It takes. Especially with no information at your fingertips with. It's. It's for like 19th century girls with no knowledge of what sexuality is. Any feelings that they do have of horniness, they probably don't necessarily know how to express it just yet or how to handle themselves in any way, especially with the puritanical views of their society. It's all just confusion. But I would, like. I'm with you on this one, Connor. I feel like with my junk. I would love it if that could sort of bleed into. From crushes into like. Like, you know, I'm. But I'm feeling something else now. Like. Yeah.

[Connor McDowell]

Even if they just want to talk about kissing the boys or something, I.

[Matt Klik]

Don'T know, harassing them, something about their bodies. Yeah. Because it's all just. It's very piny and that's lovely. We've all been there. But like, I don't know if you. If you were alone with Melchior. Remy Zaken, who does she play? Anna. No, Taya. If you were alone with that radical Milky or Gabor, what would you do with him? Would you kiss him? Would you stroke his hair? Would you stroke his back? There's something.

[Connor McDowell]

You're giving me a tingle.

[Matt Klik]

Oh, my God. That's what I do. From afar only, though, Connor, through a computer screen. Never in person. When we meet in person, you're gonna be like, oh, I'm straight now.

[Connor McDowell]

Well, you know, as we're talking about all these different iconic actors who have been in the roles, do either of you have, like, a favorite performance from Spring Awakening that you saw or maybe didn't see that you're like. Like, oh, my God, I love even them on the cast album or in the bootleg or whatever?

[Matt Klik]

Well, I did see the original and Then I saw the revival, I remember. Really? So, actually, fun fact. The other thing about the original company of Spring Awakening is for the majority of that first year, it was difficult to see the entire original company at the same time because they were young, because eight shows a week is hard. And also because once the show finally got some success, opportunities were coming their way. A lot of people calling out left and right. So when I saw it pretty early in the run, Lauren Pritchard was out and Remy Zakin was out. And in their place were, respectively, Krista Rodriguez and Jen Damiano.

[Connor McDowell]

Oh, my goodness.

[Matt Klik]

And then when I saw the revival, I saw Krista play Ilsa again. So it was really cool to see Krista play that role, like, nine years apart, very differently. And I really enjoyed what she did in the revival. I also remember being really moved by Lily Cooper in the original, especially in Left Behind. And this is one of those things where it's like, you do the setup in Act 1, so all it takes is one moment on stage to pay out, which is when you find out in act one, like, that Marta is the only one who finds more stifle cute and attractive and like. Like, it's just a little too shy to say anything about him.

[Connor McDowell]

And then sad, soulful, sleepyhead, morich default.

[Matt Klik]

Yeah, how can you even compare them? But when he dies and they're all sort of, like, paying their respects, there's. There's a little bit of a longer moment for Marta because she's the only one who had a very specific feeling towards March that will never get any kind of resolution. And it's. And something about the way she. I think she, like, dropped the flower. Something way she did it just, like, really spoke to me.

[Dylan McDowell]

Wow. I love that. My greatest experience with spring weekning was with the first national tour. And Christy Altomare played Venfa in the tour. And to me, she was graceful and naive and perfect. And I still have deliveries, like line deliveries of how she interpreted the role in my head to this day. And I'll never forget the scene where she realizes that. That she's pregnant and it's because of what she did with Melchior that, to me, still gives me chills to this day. And the moment where Venla says when she's asking Melchior to beat her in the first act, and he's like, why? And she's like, I've never felt anything. Like, it's such a great line that she's so confused and wrapped up in herself of wanting to figure things out. But Christie, to me, was an early queen, an early big influence for me.

[Matt Klik]

Connor, she bought.

[Connor McDowell]

She bodied that. I know I was gonna say Christie. So let me think of, like, a more fun answer really quick. Well, the woman who played the adult women on the tour, Angela Reed. Angela Bassett, was so amazing as the adult women. Like, bodied that. Yeah, bodied, but also fun fact. Dylan and I went to Chic to see the first national tour because a majority of the cast was leaving to, you know, they had done it for a year or whatever. So, like. Like, Bashoff was leaving, Ben Moss was leaving, etc. So. Oh, I think Kyle Riabko was leaving, and it was the guy from Degrassi coming in to do it. Or maybe he had already left and he was new. But anyway, the Moritz replacement was Taylor Trench, who is one of my favorite theater actors, living theater actors, you know, and he was so naturally tapped into Moritz at his, like, very first performance. And I will honestly never forget seeing him. Oh, and Ben Fankhauser was Ernst, right, Dylan.

[Dylan McDowell]

Yeah.

[Connor McDowell]

Ben of Newsies. So it was like, really. I really loved Taylor, too. And of course, Ben Moss, voice of an angel, is Ernst. Stephie D. Giving iconic Canadian rasp as Ilsa. So I guess I'd throw those out there, too.

[Matt Klik]

I had a friend who joined the company, I guess, in the second year of the national tour, and I didn't. We didn't get to see the tour because we were still in school, and she was a swing. Swinger ensemble, something like that. So like, we. As a college kid, you don't, like, fly out to Philadelphia because your friend's gonna be Venla for the weekend. But I remember when the tour closed, a bunch of the Spring Awakening girls did a concert at Lori Beachman.

[Dylan McDowell]

Yeah.

[Matt Klik]

And, yeah, I think Julie Benko was there. Christina.

[Connor McDowell]

Oh, my God.

[Matt Klik]

Yeah, he was definitely there. I think Kamiko Glenn also did it. Yeah.

[Dylan McDowell]

She probably would have been. Claire Sparks might have been there.

[Matt Klik]

Yeah. Well, and because I know it was various girls from the tour at different points, so I. Maybe even Christy was there as well. And I remember even when. So I also remember when Christy became Sophie and Mamma Mia. I didn't know who she was, but her. Her likeness was on the side of the Broadhurst. And my friend pointed to her, and she's like, oh, my God, it's Christy. I'm like, who is she? She's like, she was Venla before I. I joined the tour. So I've always so, like, got Terry. And then when she got Anastasia, I just knew her as. Oh, yeah, that Venla from the tour that, you know, so and so. And that's also how I knew about Taylor, was because Taylor, my friend, became very close on that tour. And I think Taylor actually came to see the production of Carousel that I directed and at Emerson, because Kayla came back after she finished the tour and her boyfriend at the time was my Billy Bigelow. So. So Taylor, like, came to see the whole thing.

[Dylan McDowell]

What was Kayla's last name again?

[Matt Klik]

Foster.

[Dylan McDowell]

Yeah, I remember that. She was a cast member.

[Matt Klik]

Yeah. Actually, I don't think she ever did go on for Venla. I think she got a put in and then never went on. But she did all the other bummers. Yeah. We used to joke, we're like, it's a shame that, you know, America never got to see your boobs. But then she did. I think she was on the Deuce where she played like a hustling sex worker. And we're like, well, now America has senior boobs.

[Dylan McDowell]

I think Christy might have done the full tour. I'm trying to remember if there was ever a Venla replacement.

[Matt Klik]

I don't know. Maybe there was. I don't know. I don't know. I don't know.

[Connor McDowell]

I mean. I mean, think of, like, Lily Cooper, Tony nominee. Gideon Glick, Tony nominee. Matt Doyle, Tony winner. I mean, you've got groff in there. Nominated a few times. Like, John Gallagher won. Caitlin Kennan was in the replacement cast.

[Matt Klik]

Alexandra Sosha, replacement cast.

[Connor McDowell]

I mean, Julie Benko, like, from the tour. And then Leah. I don't know. Like, it's just. It's really amazing. And Kimiko, of course, has had a robust theater and television career. And Andy, like, they. Everyone has really done exciting things. It's just. It's so cool. It is so cool.

[Matt Klik]

Yeah. It's also really sweet how many of them have gone on to do shows with Michael Mayer again. I find that fun. Michael Mayer is really good about coming back to people that he enjoys. Okay.

[Dylan McDowell]

Yeah, a lot of them did American Idiot right away. Like Brian Charles Johnson.

[Matt Klik]

Half of them have done Little Shop of Horse.

[Connor McDowell]

Yeah.

[Dylan McDowell]

Now. Yeah, now he's got him golf through a little shop.

[Matt Klik]

Yeah. And now. And we have Julian, Leah with Funny Girl. It's all. It's all. All connected. Okay. There's so much. Honestly, we could keep talking about the show forever.

[Dylan McDowell]

We're having so much fun, man.

[Matt Klik]

I'm having a blast with you guys. But I did promise Connor that we would end a while ago, and we've gone way too far. So we. I'm just gonna have to bring you guys back, and we're gonna have to clear a whole evening.

[Dylan McDowell]

I know the invite is there. Well, I want you on drama as well.

[Connor McDowell]

I want to give the juice. I want to give you all the juice that you're squeezing out of this. Let's. Let's call it an orange. What else. What else are you dying to talk about?

[Matt Klik]

God, I don't know. Jonathan Groff's ass.

[Connor McDowell]

Okay, well, that's a whole podcast.

[Matt Klik]

I think that'll be. I think, ladies, I think we just started a podcast right here, right now. In addition to Drama and Broadway Breakdown, we are going to start a podcast, and I'm going to pitch it to bpn, and it's just called Jonathan Groz Ass. And we talk about everything but, ha ha, Jonathan Groff's ass until the last 10 minutes. And then it's just new adjectives we can think of.

[Dylan McDowell]

Oh, I love that. Just keep it fresh.

[Matt Klik]

Yeah. And all the places you can see it. Spring Awakening bootleg Looking all the episodes in movie version of Looking. Taking Woodstock. Mindhunter. Mindhunter. That boy knows that he's got a good peach, and he's willing to show it off.

[Dylan McDowell]

Mindhunter should have gotten the third season. And then, you know, he was just in merrily. And although he is clothed the entire time, Connor did have a viral tweet about his ass that it was shown to Jonathan himself.

[Connor McDowell]

You know what? I think I need to finally post it on Instagram so when this episode drops, I will do it finally.

[Matt Klik]

Please do. Because I do not have Twitter, but I do have Instagram, and I. I'm. I know. I'm. I'm an old man. I like visuals. I need. I need bright, colorful photos. Yeah, that's fair. Do either of you have visions in your head of how you would like to do Spring Awakening? Do you. Do either of you fancy yourself directors?

[Dylan McDowell]

You know, it's funny. I think at one point I would have wanted to have directed it, but my. I mentioned earlier that my boyfriend did it last year in Columbus, Ohio.

[Matt Klik]

I'm sorry, Dylan, you have a boyfriend? You want to say it one more time?

[Dylan McDowell]

Have I said it a lot?

[Matt Klik]

Yeah, you said it, like, three times. I'm. I notoriously love to drag people on this podcast in relationships because I'm gonna die alone, and it's the only comfort I get. Connor, do you have a boyfriend?

[Connor McDowell]

Well, I don't want to mention it now because I don't want to be dragged. Well, no.

[Matt Klik]

Fine. You don't okay, you. You get to stay. Dylan.

[Dylan McDowell]

I used to get a lot of heat for mentioning him on the podcast.

[Matt Klik]

I love that you found love in a hopeless place. This world is terrible. So your boyfriend did it?

[Dylan McDowell]

He was Hanchin, and yes. And that was fun. And I remember when I watched that production, there was a lot of things I. I think I would have done maybe differently, just having seen it with fresh eyes and seeing him in the show. And I think that there's a way to. Because people love to modernize the show and maybe change up the ending or different things like that. And I do have visions of how I think I would connect it to modern society that I think is possible with the production.

[Matt Klik]

I love that. I just realized why I'm actually going to die alone, though. When you were telling that story, you're like, oh, I was watching my boyfriend play Hanchen. I was like, if I was seeing a production of Spring Awakening and my boyfriend was playing Hanchen, I would turn to the person next to me during my junk and go, that's not how he usually jerks off.

[Dylan McDowell]

I mean, it was fun. You know, I had. I sat with my parents while they watched him jerk off. You know, it was very interesting.

[Connor McDowell]

Oh, God.

[Matt Klik]

And again, I would tell my parents, don't worry. That's not how he does it in real life. And just like, I must. I troll the people I love in this world. Apparently, that's all I can do.

[Connor McDowell]

I don't. I don't know if this is an original thought, but I feel like there's somewhere in my brain the concept of having Spring Awakening being done in, like, an insane asylum, and then it. It ends, and they're all locked up in the loony band vibes.

[Matt Klik]

It's not that it's an unoriginal thought. I don't know if anyone's thought of that for Spring Awakening. Also, why is my hair so weird? But it's. There was an NYU production of Hair that did that. I want to do a production of Cats that's set in an insane asylum.

[Connor McDowell]

That makes sense.

[Matt Klik]

And Macavity is the nurse Ratched who comes in to give everyone their pills and shots. And then at the end, Grizabella to just lean into the theory everyone has about this show that, like, Grizabella's not going anywhere. She just jumps off into the ocean. All the inmates set up a chair and a noose made out of their bedsheet, and they're sending Grizabella off to the Heaviside Layer, and they just hang her. And then all through the name and so macabre. And then the naming of the cats is them just singing to the audience while Chrisabella just swings there. Oh, God, that's, like, a little too.

[Connor McDowell]

Dark for me after talking about this play. That's so dark.

[Matt Klik]

But then when the dark. When the curtain call happens, she just pops her head right back up, up. And she. And she's.

[Dylan McDowell]

Oh, that's cute, though.

[Matt Klik]

She gets herself out of the news and she. She does a nice big bow.

[Dylan McDowell]

Very. It's very, very, you know, communal at the end.

[Matt Klik]

It is very communal. We're all cats in some way. What would you do with your production of Spring Awakening? Yeah, I don't know. I feel like what I might do. It's such a visual thing. I hate being the kind of. I don't. I never considered myself a director, really. I directed in college, and it was sort of like food poisoning. The production turned out well, but it was such an awful experience getting the show up that I was like, never again. And I'm actually doing some musical staging for the New York City Gay Men's Chorus that I'm a part of. We have a concert next week. If either of you are in town for it, I can get you a ticket because I'm, you know, on the production team for this. But, hey. Yeah, I did some staging for them for a few of the solo numbers, and they went over quite well. I was like, like, huh. Maybe I could do this again. I don't know. It's been long enough. Love it.

[Dylan McDowell]

There you go.

[Matt Klik]

Thank you. So if I did Spring Awakening, and I don't want to think like a director who only thinks in visuals, but I feel like I would start it probably very communal with the audience. Like, everyone's sort of sitting in, you know, different spots. It wouldn't necessarily be all proscenium, maybe in the round. And it would be very. All the lights on. Like, all the work lights on, all that stuff. And then sort of as. As the show continued, it would get a little more theatrically lit and darker until we get to actually where all the hits. The fan, Actually, no, until at the end of Act 1, with the sex scene, where all the lights would go out and then they come back up and it's like, fully theatrical after that. That's cool. Yeah. I just sort of like the world kind of collapsing in on you. You know, I. I steal that from Carousel, which everyone's heard me talk about this scene transition. So off. I'm gonna say it one more time. You can Watch the video on YouTube. But it doesn't do it justice in carousel in the 94. And the best thing that's ever happened to Broadway ever. And, yes, I am backing that up with science. They do it on a hill. They do that whole scene on a hill rather than on a bench. And you've been to the Beaumont in Lincoln center, right?

[Connor McDowell]

Oh, yeah.

[Matt Klik]

And so, you know, like, it's got that thrust and then it's got that deep stage.

[Dylan McDowell]

Yes.

[Matt Klik]

And so what they did at the end of the scene with the Blossoms and all that shit, Sally Murphy, remember her name. She's popping up in a second. And Michael Hayden, they do their kiss and they get into, like, this. This bear hug. It's not cute. It's like they're just holding on to each other for dear life. And then that hill, that green turtle shell moved to the back of the Beaumont stage as all the lights started to go down, except for one spotlight on them as they kept holding onto each other. And the spotlight got tighter and tighter and tighter as the hill went further back and further back. So they just looked like they were drowning in darkness until the final note, and then the light went out. I'm like, that is a beautiful image, and it's a great metaphor for the relationship because even though it's toxic, they hold on to each other because let go and there's nothing but darkness. Now, that's beautiful. In theory. I know a few people in this world who have similar mentalities about the relationship. And I can just tell you, those of us who know them, those. Those you've known, we're all sitting there being like, honey, get off the hill. Get out of the theater. There are other theaters who directed that. Nicholas Heitner.

[Dylan McDowell]

Oh, great.

[Matt Klik]

Oh, wow. Okay. I believe Sir Nicholas Heitner. Yes. Who's now the artistic. Yeah. Who's now the artistic director of the Bridge Theater doing Guys and Dol. Was that playing when you two were in London?

[Dylan McDowell]

No, it didn't originally. We were supposed to be there now, and it was playing there. Starts this week, but it was not playing.

[Matt Klik]

I didn't realize that you two were so homophobic to yourselves. Just deny yourself.

[Connor McDowell]

We changed because we ultimately did get tickets to Streetcar at the Albino.

[Dylan McDowell]

Mezcal.

[Matt Klik]

Yeah, it's. Yeah. Oh, I want. I want to say this as well. This is how, you know, I've listened to your pod. It is Mescal, Paul Mescal.

[Connor McDowell]

It is mescal.

[Dylan McDowell]

It is me.

[Matt Klik]

Okay.

[Dylan McDowell]

I thought so. Thought so.

[Matt Klik]

Yes. Because. Yes. You had a Moment with each other. Like mescal. Mescal. And I was sitting there being like, I'm gonna be able to them in 90 minutes. Thank you. You're like, thank you for telling me this five weeks after we recorded that. Yeah, I love it. When I record episodes two months ago and then I release it two months later, People DM me. They're like, you said this, and. And this is what you were asking. I'm like, thank you. I found that out in the last two months since I recorded.

[Dylan McDowell]

When will this come out? Sorry, I'm getting all busy soon.

[Matt Klik]

It's coming out. This is coming out next week. So this. We're recording this on the 8th. This is coming out on the 16th.

[Connor McDowell]

Do you want to hear something crazy? I saw spring awakening on March 8th in 2009.

[Dylan McDowell]

Me too. I was there.

[Matt Klik]

So this is the 14th anniversary of you seeing Spring Awakening?

[Connor McDowell]

Yes. Yes, yes, yes. And I. I feel like we were on stage, Dylan. Were we not?

[Matt Klik]

Yeah. Yeah. I didn't. I didn't do on stage. I don't love being on stage because then I feel like I have to perform a little bit even though no one's watching me. Do you know what I mean?

[Dylan McDowell]

Right, Right. Well, we. I thought the same. And then a friend of ours was in the audience while we were on stage, and he was like, you weren't rocking out during. And I was like, oh, okay.

[Matt Klik]

That's the kind of stuff that. That makes me nervous. I'm like, people are gonna look at me even. Even if only for a second. That's. I saw View from the Bridge on stage, and. And luckily, the way that whole thing was designed, no one really looks at you. But still, every now and then, I was like. Like half the Lyceum Theater can see me. I must. I must stand with posture. Yeah.

[Dylan McDowell]

With Russell Tovey.

[Matt Klik]

With Russell. Yes. So with Russell Tove. The talk about. Speaking of Jonathan Grof, that's. That is a couple of. A couple of sex. Sex scenes between those two that sprung my awakening. Now, Jen, this has been an absolute pleasure. We do have to wrap this up because, Connor, you've been lovely, but I'm. I'm. I'm going to release you now because you have work to do. Do.

[Connor McDowell]

It's tragic. It's almost as tragic as aspects of Spring Awakening. But ultimately, it was so fun. I learned a lot, and I got to geek out about a musical that, honestly, not to make it full circle was a ring of keys for me in terms of getting into the business. I remember seeing the show and being like, oh, my God, they're so close to me in age. They're participating in the arts in a huge way. Let me go watch Jonathan Groff's Broadway.com backstage tour again and again and again and again and again and learn everything. You know, it really was this amazing to be going through puberty and experiencing my own questions about life and what I'm interested in and my sexuality while watching it happen on stage in a musical was such a strange and perfect fateful timing that I almost felt like, how am I getting this so well as a kid? You know, a teen? But also theatergoers everywhere are also enjoying this and feeling it. Like, that's. That's powerful art to me. So that's why part of why I love Spring Awakening.

[Matt Klik]

Yeah, that's the power of musical theater. It's. It touches on something that's not necessarily in your head. It's in your heart. It's chemical. Music is something we can all relate to, period. Period, says Dylan. Any final parting words on Spring Awakening?

[Dylan McDowell]

It's definitely in my top three. Forever and always. I will. Will always buy a ticket to see it whenever it's performed. And thank you so much for having us. You know, we talk about it a lot on our show, but never in this depth. We're usually just trying to get, like, memories from the cast and whatnot. So this was. This was lovely. Matt, you're so good at what you do.

[Connor McDowell]

You love it. You can tell that you love it. And that's what I love about your podcast. You love what you're talking about.

[Matt Klik]

Thank you very much. I gotta say, this has probably been the most. Most polite I've been about a show in a while, Even shows that I love. But, you know, you know, like, when we get in sort of like the nitty gritty stuff and we talk about, you know, some of the backstage stuff. I have friends on this pod who I love, and I'm. I'm gonna have them back on again. But we get bitchy and we make, like, snarky comments, but we do it usually lovingly, like Adam Ellsberry and I in the Rent episode with our Daffy Ruben Vega impressions. But, like, it coming, it's coming from two gays who have devoured that cast album. So we just know every minutiae of her performance. Get a light.

[Dylan McDowell]

But it's like how I would have done my Alice Ripley impression had we done a next normal episode together, you know?

[Matt Klik]

Well, no, you. You said it. Here we go. You're on. You're on the air. Dylan McDowell, will you come back on to do next to Normal?

[Dylan McDowell]

Oh, my goodness. I would be honored.

[Connor McDowell]

Connor, can I come back for something different alone?

[Matt Klik]

I was, I. I was actually gonna say, first of all, I was gonna. I was gonna make a joke and be like, connor, you want to leave now? But I think this has been amazing. I would gladly take you both at the same time or separately. And I don't mean that sexually, but don't I? But yes, we'll work out. We'll work out the logistics. But yes, you both are going to come back on on for this series. And I have Dylan on record is saying that I'm gonna be on Drama. I may not be as famous as Matt Doyle, but I am more famous now than Matt Shingle Decker. So there we go. I'm in between the two Spring Awakening.

[Connor McDowell]

Mats and you got to own end on a snarky note, which I am gagged by. I'm obsessed with that.

[Matt Klik]

Thank you. Before we close out. Before we close out. Oh, I gotta. We gotta do this. We have a game. We have a game, right? It's the same game, different names. I don't know if either of you made it to the end of either episode. So, you know, so you know. But for the listeners out there, we have six degrees of Sally Murphy and who lives, who dies? Jeanine Tesori. They are the same game, which is to say that they are 6 degrees of both women. We have to find 6 degrees from the original production of Spring Awakening to Sally Murphy and as well to Janine Desori. Janine Tesori is fucking easy. Now we can. You can use the entire original Broadway cast, no replacements. And you can use the entire original production team. I can help you with Sally Murphy. Janine Tesori is actually pretty easy if you just look at production team.

[Connor McDowell]

Do we go from Janine backwards?

[Matt Klik]

You can go however you want, love. This is.

[Dylan McDowell]

Does it have to be six or can it be just one?

[Matt Klik]

It could just be one. I mean, if you want to, like, try to make it fun, you could just make it fun because there's a one and done right there.

[Dylan McDowell]

Which Michael Mayer, obviously.

[Matt Klik]

Which one?

[Dylan McDowell]

Michael Mayer and Janine Tesori.

[Matt Klik]

Yes. With early Modern Millie.

[Connor McDowell]

What about Michael Cerverus?

[Dylan McDowell]

Well, he wasn't in the original production.

[Connor McDowell]

Oh, okay, okay. But involved.

[Matt Klik]

But involved. But I mean, that's also a one and done.

[Connor McDowell]

Yeah. Okay. Okay, okay, okay, okay. Oh, Oh, I have one. I have one. Oh, this is fun. Okay. It's pretty close, though. But John Gallagher Jr. Was in the original play of Kimberly Akimbo, and Kimberly Akimbo was written by David Lindsay Hubert. And David Lindsay Hubert is working with Jeanine Tesori on Kimberly Akimbo, the Broadway show now.

[Matt Klik]

Absolutely. And Shrek. So that also works. You also have John Gallagher Jr. In Rabbit Hole by David Lindsay Bay, DLA. His Pulitzer. Yes, indeed. Yeah. No, that. That absolutely works. Sally Murphy. Now, I'm gonna get. I'm assuming you guys don't know Sally Murphy's credits like I do, because I am one. Sally Murphy. Super Stan. I saw Downstate twice. Sally Murphy. Let me give you some of her Broadway credits. We have the 94 carousel with Audra. We have the Lachiusa wild party. We have the Fiddler on the Roof with Alfred Molina. Wink, wink. We have August Osage County, Me. We have the minutes, but there's. There's an immediate one and done. Right.

[Dylan McDowell]

Leah Michelle being in that fiddler.

[Matt Klik]

Being in that fiddler. The fiddler that had two Jews in the entire company. Speaking of Laura Michelle Kelly, she wasn't as well. I'm sure there were more Jewish people in that production, but when it opened, the joke was like, it was the least Jewish fiddler of all time.

[Dylan McDowell]

Is Alfred Molina Jewish?

[Matt Klik]

I don't think he is.

[Dylan McDowell]

He gives Jewish energy.

[Matt Klik]

But also, like, that production was just very pristine and, like, cold. There was another joke that, like, the set looked like it came from West Elm. It looked like a West Elm set is what people often said about the production, because it was just, like, very pretty to look at. That's not a slight. That was just what the talk was at the time. I'm trying to think if we could do one more. Okay.

[Connor McDowell]

Leah Michelle was in Ragtime.

[Matt Klik]

Yes. With Audra.

[Connor McDowell]

With Audra. And, well, that was too e. That.

[Matt Klik]

Was too quick with selling Murphy. Okay, so.

[Connor McDowell]

I'm checking, like, extended a little.

[Matt Klik]

So let me. Okay, so let me. Okay, so how about this? I'm gonna have you guys challenge me on this one. Okay. Give me a Spring Awakening person. And then with. Okay, with. We could also connect it back. Lee Michelle, Ragtime, directed by Frank Galati, who directed Sally Murphy and Grapes of Wrath. But we have Sally Murphy and Grapes of Wrath, Carousel, Lachius, A Wild Party, Alfa Molina, Fiddler on the Roof, August, Osage County. The minutes. Those are. Those are the Sally Murphy credits. Give me somebody from Spring Awakening and then give me a Sally Murphy credit, and I'm going to try to connect the dots.

[Dylan McDowell]

Okay. We're gonna definitely do Wild Party for.

[Matt Klik]

Sally Murphy, I knew I liked you. Yeah, that.

[Dylan McDowell]

That's because I think that has, like, a really robust cast as well.

[Matt Klik]

It also so hard.

[Dylan McDowell]

Dylan, are you a Lachuza?

[Matt Klik]

I am such. Okay. I have done lippas. I have done. It is not fun to be in lippas unless you are the main four.

[Dylan McDowell]

Okay.

[Matt Klik]

And even then, you're the.

[Dylan McDowell]

You're always rooting for the underdog, so this is always rooting for the underdog.

[Matt Klik]

And also, I'm sorry, Tony Collette. Come on.

[Dylan McDowell]

I know.

[Matt Klik]

Earth. A cat Earth. Mandy Patinkin, Mark Kudish, Norm Lewis. I could go on, but I won't. So.

[Dylan McDowell]

Okay, so I chose the. I chose the. The credit for Sally, and Connor's gonna choose the Spring Awakening cast member. It doesn't have to be original, Connor, does it? Does it be original?

[Matt Klik]

It does, but if you want to make it fun, we can do. No, no.

[Dylan McDowell]

Do original. Do original.

[Matt Klik]

Or it could be.

[Connor McDowell]

Do you hear my hissing heater?

[Matt Klik]

I do. I thought that was just your little lift, but a bunch.

[Connor McDowell]

I'm gonna be random as hell, and no offense to this performer.

[Matt Klik]

Do it.

[Connor McDowell]

Lauren Pritchard.

[Matt Klik]

Oh, you. Oh, you.

[Connor McDowell]

Want me to change?

[Matt Klik]

What?

[Connor McDowell]

You want me to change?

[Matt Klik]

Well, I. I don't know if she's done any other theater, has she? Because she's mostly like an. She mostly does like indie music.

[Connor McDowell]

Yeah.

[Dylan McDowell]

She now goes by a different name.

[Connor McDowell]

In fact, she goes by a different name. Can I. How about I give you. Let's go with Lily Cooper.

[Matt Klik]

Oh, this could be a.

[Connor McDowell]

This is a fun one.

[Matt Klik]

This is a fun one. Okay, okay, okay, okay. Lily Cooper was in potus. I don't know where I'm going yet, but I feel like there are options for here. Huh? POTUS also had. Oh, oh, oh. Had Julie White. Julie White was in the play Gary with Nathan Lane and Christy Nielsen, directed by George C. Wolf, who directed did the Wild Party with Sally Murphy. Bang, bang, boom. That was good.

[Connor McDowell]

You're good at this game.

[Matt Klik]

Bang bang, bong in bing bang bong. Sing sang song. In my defense, Connor, I've. I've done this quite a few times now, and I'm usually.

[Connor McDowell]

You're an expert. You're a Melchior. You're a regular Malky. Or aren't you?

[Matt Klik]

Well, well, especially with Sally, because I do the game and everyone's like, I think I could figure out Janine. I don't know Sally. And I'm like, this is my ploy to get people to know Sally Murphy. Murphy better. It's. God, she's the best Julie Jordan. Anyway, Dylan, Connor, where can people find you if you want them to find you?

[Dylan McDowell]

Oh, yes, come and come and knock on our door. We're at the drama podcast on Twitter and Instagram. We're at TheDrama Pod on TikTok and you can also find us. Connor and I respond to all DMs, even the naughty ones. I'm at Dylan McDowell and Connor is.

[Connor McDowell]

At Connor McDowell, especially the naughty ones.

[Dylan McDowell]

And it's McDowell is spelled M, A, C, D, O, W, E, L, L.

[Matt Klik]

Guys, this has been amazing. I've really had the best time. And I also say if you want to reach out to them, you can email them on the drama website. They do answer to those emails. I can confirm if you're. If you're a shark, sharks come back and reply to you guys. If you want to follow me, I'm on Instagram only at Matt Cop, like usual spelling. I have to make this statement again, unfortunately. Please don't go to Facebook because a, I don't use it it. But also it's only there for my family. So I've. It's not that, like, I find it a violation, like, you know, telling a Spring Awakening cast member, you know, where they went on vacation, but I just don't. I just don't respond. So just don't do it. Instagram. I will respond to DMs there. I post theater reviews. I actually will be writing my dance and review around the time that this episode comes out, and that's dirella after that, for the first time this entire series, I know what the next episode's going to be. I've done this whole thing out of of order. We have one more episode coming up and then we're gonna go on a bit of a hiatus. Oh. But the episode is going to be in a very special bonus episode that wasn't on the roster, but it meets our criteria for Off Broadway transfers and harks back to a past series on someone we might have just mentioned, Janine Tesori. We are covering Kimberly Akimbo with drum roll, please. For the first time in two years. My father. My father is city. I am taking him see Kimberly Akimbo. My fourth time, his first. And Booboo has agreed to come back on the podcast and discuss his thoughts.

[Connor McDowell]

So that is a treat, I think.

[Matt Klik]

So he's not famous, but I. I had enough people ask if he was gonna come back on, especially because my mom did torch on a trilogy. They were like, well, you got to bring Boo Boo back on. So I've listened to the listeners and Boo Boo's coming.

[Dylan McDowell]

I feel like, what a special show to see with a parent as well.

[Matt Klik]

Yeah, I saw it literally two weeks ago with my mom and we both cried. But that's. It's. The show. Does it to you? Have you seen it yet?

[Dylan McDowell]

Dylan? That's my favorite show. The new. New show of the season. Yeah, it's amazing.

[Matt Klik]

It's amazing. Connor, you've seen that, I'm assuming?

[Connor McDowell]

Yes. Yeah, I've seen it four times.

[Matt Klik]

Have you really?

[Connor McDowell]

Well, it's actually interesting to talk about Kimberly and Spring Awakening because they're both Atlantic transfers.

[Matt Klik]

Sure were.

[Connor McDowell]

You know of shows that were placed first and moved on on small casts? I don't know. Very interesting. But I'm on the advertising team for Kimberly Akimbo, so everyone should definitely go see it.

[Matt Klik]

Wait a second. You might know another friend of mine. We'll talk about this. Off mic. Adam Elsbury.

[Connor McDowell]

You mentioned Adam Elsberry?

[Matt Klik]

Yeah, yeah.

[Connor McDowell]

I work with him at the same agency.

[Matt Klik]

Shut the up. Yeah. So that's why you were at Shuck last night.

[Connor McDowell]

Yes, exactly.

[Matt Klik]

Yes. That's amazing. Off. We're gonna. We're all gonna have to get together soon. See, I didn't know that we all had so much in common, you guys. If I had known, we would have been friends 10 years ago. Go.

[Dylan McDowell]

Oh, the timing was everything for this special moment. It gets better.

[Matt Klik]

This really was special. If you like the podcast guys, give us a nice 5 star rating or a review always helps with the algorithm. And that's it for now, gentlemen. We close out every episode with the Broadway diva. We like to have that diva be related to our show. We try not to do doubles, but we're getting to the point where we kind of start having to. Who should we close out with today? Who would you like?

[Dylan McDowell]

I mean, have you done Leah in Funny Girl yet?

[Matt Klik]

Not in Funny Girl. Have we done Leah at all? Back when I had a co host, John, he was very anti Leah, so we never did her. But since I've rebranded and made it all about me, just like Beth Leavel I don't think we've done Leah. So. Yeah, and I. I just got. I'm sorry, I didn't just get assigned to write her review. My review for the cast album with her just got released, so that's actually apropos. Oh, we'll do Leah and Funny Girl. Which track do we do? Star. Do we do? Parade? Cornet man, which is a secretly killer track.

[Dylan McDowell]

Connor has to choose because Connor has a particular favorite.

[Connor McDowell]

It's people.

[Matt Klik]

It's. It's. It's people. It's people.

[Connor McDowell]

It is sublime.

[Matt Klik]

It is. It is a wonderful people. See, she makes me almost understand the lyrics. Almost amazing. All right, thank you so much, guys, and thank you for listening, everybody. Take us away, Leah. Bye.

[Dylan McDowell]

But first, be a person who needs people. People who need people.

[Matt Klik]

All the luckiest people in the world. Ra.