The 2025 Tony Awards w/ Robert W. Schneider

Summary

Broadway Breakdown — The 2025 Tony Awards (w/ Robert W. Schneider)

Podcast: Broadway Breakdown
Host: Matt Koplik
Guest: Robert W. Schneider
Date: June 12, 2025

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Episode Overview

In this special post-mortem episode, theatre savant and professional shit-stirrer Matt Koplik unpacks the 2025 Tony Awards with podcast stalwart and fellow Broadway historian Robert W. Schneider (“Daddy of the Pod”). What starts as a purported Tony recap spirals out into a freewheeling, anecdote-packed, and very frank discussion about the current state of Broadway, the Tony ceremony, industry gossip, genuine artistry vs. social media myth-making, and what really makes a Tony moment. As always, the duo mixes deep-dive analysis with juicy asides, personal connections, and plenty of four-letter words.

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Table of Contents

1. Opening Banter: Personal Tony Memories & Party Logistics (00:01–10:07)
2. Tony Ceremonies Through the Years (03:41–09:49)
3. Initial Reactions to the 2025 Ceremony (10:08–13:02)
4. The In Memoriam Segment and Tastefulness (10:16–12:41)
5. Performances: Middle of the Pack? (12:41–15:00)
6. Substack, Discord, & Podcast Housekeeping (15:00–21:02)
7. Deep Dive: Tony Show Performances — Crafting a "Moment" (13:02–15:00, 96:39–124:12)
8. Awards, Voter Behavior, & Social Media Myths (44:05–51:13)
9. Why Did Just In Time & Gypsy Go Home Empty Handed? (29:22–44:05)
10. Category Oddities & Play/Revival Debates (55:22–61:13)
11. Standout Moments: Notable Quotes, Shocks, & Humor (84:37–105:47)
12. Listener Questions (Substack) Answered (21:02–124:12)
13. Final Thoughts on Winners, Comedies, & Moving Forward (157:38–164:37)

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<a name="banter"></a>

1. Opening Banter: Personal Tony Memories & Party Logistics (00:01–10:07)

• The show opens with the hosts trading comedic quips referencing breakup drama, sibling betrayal, and the inherent camp of theatre.
• Matt introduces both himself (with his usual self-deprecating flair: “the least famous and most opinionated of all Broadway podcast hosts”) and Robert (“Daddy of the pod”).
• Rob shares that a leaky apartment forced him to miss their planned Tony night gathering:
  “You pathetic old fuck. You were alone.” (09:59, Matt)
• Initial mood for the episode: “The Tonys are over. The Internet has exploded. Thank god the Internet is dead. Long live the Internet.” (00:18, Matt)

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<a name="tony-history"></a>

2. Tony Ceremonies Through the Years (03:41–09:49)

• Personal favorite Tony ceremonies discussed:
  • Rob: 1986 (The Mystery of Edwin Drood year); sentimental value and the way the show “celebrated history” by bringing back actors from Best Play winners and giving each a line.

    "That to me was my first education of what musical theatre should be...I’d go research them after." (05:09, Rob)

  • Matt: 2000, the “Contact” year, for its inventive video montages that showcased design and writing elements across the season.

    "It was a great way to showcase the whole season and really gave you insight into what goes into making shows." (06:23, Matt)

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<a name="impressions"></a>

3. Initial Reactions to the 2025 Ceremony (10:08–13:02)

• Rob: “Honestly, I thought it was the most beautiful In Memoriam sequence I've ever seen in my life…that really touched me.” (10:16)
• Both agree: the whole ceremony was “tasteful,” with nothing “very visceral” or “for the record books,” but also no full-on duds.

  “I thought the performances…no one did a bad job, but I don’t think anyone did a very good job.” (13:52, Matt)

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<a name="in-memoriam"></a>

4. The In Memoriam Segment and Tastefulness (10:16–13:02)

• Notable moment: Some online found singing “Tomorrow” (from Charles Strouse’s Annie) offensive for the segment, but the hosts dismiss this as absurd.

  “You want to know who can’t be offended? Dead people… Charles would not be offended. He would be touched.” (10:45–10:50, Matt/Rob)

• Theme: The line between “corny and moving” is what makes theatre theatre.

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<a name="performances-general"></a>

5. Performances: Middle of the Pack? (12:41–15:00)

• Neither host found any performance “great.” Most were “middle minus or middle plus.”

  “Nobody shat the bed. Nobody embarrassed themselves, but nobody that I watched was, like, sold a thousand tickets.” (21:02, Matt)

• Reference to past Tony performances that truly flopped or missed their potential (Mean Girls, The Visit, Tootsie):
  • “No one takes risks. Everyone plays it a little too safe now.” (21:24, Matt)

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<a name="housekeeping"></a>

6. Substack, Discord, & Podcast Housekeeping (15:00–21:02)

• Matt explains launch of Broadway Breakdown’s Substack for articles, reviews, and deeper listener engagement. Discord remains, Substack won’t replace it.

  “Discord is going to stay…I am kind of speaking out of turn – I’m not supposed to be saying this.” (16:11, Matt)

• Rob asks what Discord and Substack are (“I’m a hundred”).
• Reviews are read and appreciated on air, underscoring the passionate, nerdy, and “snobbish” (in a good way) fanbase.

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<a name="performance-analysis"></a>

7. Deep Dive: Tony Show Performances — Crafting a "Moment" (13:02–15:00, 96:39–124:12)

• Key Insight from Josh Ellis, quoted by Rob (13:05):

  “If your show is up for best musical, picking the exact right musical highlight...is a monumental choice. You must choose something that makes complete sense without context...They blew their chance. Sad.”

• Matt largely agrees, but feels most shows did their best; some shows, like Floyd Collins, can’t fit their essence into a 3-minute spot.
• Discussion of what makes a great Tony performance historically, the “time crunch” effect, and the challenge of excerpting context-heavy shows.
• Top Performance Rankings (see detailed rankings below).

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<a name="voting-dynamics"></a>

8. Awards, Voter Behavior, & Social Media Myths (44:05–51:13)

• Strong critique of social media theatre culture:

  “Social media theatre fans are not in the room where it happens…If there’s one thing Tony voters hate, it’s being told who to vote for.” (44:05, Matt)

• Over-promotion (e.g. overt “it’s her time” campaigns, magazine covers timed to voting) can backfire.
• Voters often respond to craft and performance impact over buzz or narrative.

  “When you lead with ‘this is the important choice,’ they HATE it. Don’t tell me what’s important. I tell you what’s important.” (52:24, Rob)

• Double standards in who gets “forgiven” for self-referential, non-transformational performances (see: Groff in Just In Time vs. Audra in Gypsy) (138:06).

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<a name="snubbed-shows"></a>

9. Why Did Just In Time & Gypsy Go Home Empty Handed? (29:22–44:05)

• Just In Time (Bobby Darin musical, led by Jonathan Groff):
  • Fun but “doesn’t do anything new or memorable.” Groff “marathon” performance, but “doesn’t transform” into Darin.
  • “With every block you walk away from it, your memories of it get more fading.” (31:50, Matt)
• Gypsy (w/ Audra McDonald as Rose):
  • Despite social media fervor, industry folks and voters didn’t love the production. Online narratives don’t always reflect voter sentiment.

  “People don’t like this Gypsy...Messages from people in the community, and...social media theatre fans are not in the room where it happens.” (44:05, Matt)

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<a name="category-issues"></a>

10. Category Oddities & Play/Revival Debates (55:22–61:13)

• Eureka Day classified as a revival despite being only ~7 years old; petitioned under the “classics rule.”
• Distinction between revival and original, blurred by Tony precedent and strategic producing.
• Noted surprise wins: Eureka Day’s revival win, Purpose’s win for Best Play over Oh Mary! and John Proctor Is the Villain.

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<a name="memorable-moments"></a>

11. Standout Moments: Notable Quotes, Shocks, & Humor (84:37–105:47)

• Best Awkward Moment:

  “My favorite moment: If you watch the Dead Outlaw performance, early on there’s a guy in the aisle yelling, ‘It’s a man!’ and you see Jeremy Jordan in the audience just go…oh.” (84:37, Matt)

• Moment of shade:

  Andrew Lloyd Webber thanking Jamie Lloyd for his ‘interesting interpretation of my piece’ [Sunset Boulevard], compared to a cat marking its territory. (84:37, Listener Q)

• Pirate’s finale described as: “Everyone comes to the front and goes, ‘We’re all from different places’ – that was the ninth time my mother turned to me and said: huh?” (107:26, Matt)

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<a name="listener-questions"></a>

12. Listener Questions (Substack) Answered (21:02–124:12)

Questions covered (and timestamp pointers):

• Why were certain performances (Just In Time, Real Women Have Curves) included, and others not? (86:07–91:24)
  • Theory: Lin-Manuel Miranda’s influence, and the complexities of who pays to play.
• Was Oprah presenting Best Actress a sign they expected Audra to win? (57:02–57:47)
  • Yes: “If you want the most egg on your face, set up your ceremony not knowing who the winners are, but thinking you do, and then watch it backfire.”
• Why did certain shows sweep (“maybe Happy Ending”), and was it due to strength or lack of competition? (74:06–77:44)
  • Matt: “It was just the best of the lot…People want drama, but I don’t want a dramatic win if it’s not the right winner.”
• Thoughts on safe/“tasteful” choices, and the ongoing issue of comedies getting snubbed for Best Play (53:18–56:03)
  • “The Tony Awards have a stigma against comedies, especially with plays. They don’t take it seriously.” (53:18, Matt)
• Extensive ranking of performance slots, with nuanced discussion of strengths/limitations of each (96:39–124:12).

Matt Koplik’s 2025 Tony Performance Rankings (summarized)

1. Sunset Boulevard (Nicole Scherzinger-led) — "Not an A or A-...just the best of the lot."
2. Buena Vista Social Club — Only fault was with camera work.
3. Floyd Collins — Impressive effort considering material, even if not replicated on the broadcast.
4. Just in Time
5. Dead Outlaw
6. Maybe Happy Ending
7. Gypsy
8. Death Becomes Her
9. Pirates
10. Operation Mincemeat
11. Real Women Have Curves (bottom)

“B, B-, C, C+ range. Nothing terrible, just nothing transcendent.” (123:41, Matt)

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<a name="final-thoughts"></a>

13. Final Thoughts on Winners, Comedies, & Moving Forward (157:38–end)

• Both express disappointment that comedies like Oh, Mary! are rarely awarded top honors.

  "Celebrate comedy. Comedy is so tricky. Comedy is so difficult...A comedy well done is fucking hard." (158:04, Rob)

• There’s a repeated call for the Tonys (and by extension, the Oscars) to recognize how much harder comedy often is.
• A heartfelt sequence at the close about genuine friendship, being welcoming to fans/listeners, and why being critical doesn’t preclude sincere love for the art form.

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Notable Quotes & Moments

On Craft & Tony Voting:

“Voters…respond to craft. That’s what does it.” (45:50, Matt)

On Social Media Hype:

“The moment Ben Brantley threw his whole pussy into writing an article about Audra's Rose's Turn…I was like, they're making her lose the Tony.” (44:37, Matt)

On “Safe” Choices and Tastefulness:

“Tasteful…a really nice way to describe the entire ceremony…everything felt tasteful…nothing felt very visceral.” (11:51, Rob)

On Double Standards:

“Why must Audra turn herself inside out to show us how much she can be like Billie Holiday just to shut up the haters...and Jonathan Groff gets away with not doing any Bobby Darin at all?” (138:06, Matt)

On Industry Reality vs. Online Discourse:

“Social media theater fans are not in the room where it happens. They are online writing a narrative and bullying people into their narrative. And if there's one thing Tony voters hate, it's being told who to vote for.” (44:05, Matt)

On Nicole Scherzinger’s Speech:

"Honestly, I thought it was cringe...Her speech was a bit Norma Desmond in real life... She's in a lot of ways, she's Norma in real life..." (137:33–138:06, Listener Q & Matt)

On what makes a real Tony moment:

“The best performances tend to be a little slice of something. Fun Home—amazing Tony performance; literally just that, the simplicity.” (98:28, Matt)

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Timestamps: Key Segments

• [00:01–03:39] Opening banter, party logistics, intro
• [03:41–09:49] Favorite Tony ceremonies and what made them special
• [10:08–15:00] First reactions to the 2025 Tony ceremony
• [13:05–14:34] Quoting Josh Ellis on Tony performance strategy
• [21:02–29:22] Substack, Discord, podcast housekeeping, review shoutouts
• [29:22–44:05] Listener Q: Why were certain shows (Just In Time, Gypsy) snubbed?
• [44:05–51:13] Tony voting, why social media buzz doesn’t reflect voting outcomes
• [55:22–61:13] Revival category, play/nominee oddities (Eureka Day, Yellowface)
• [84:37–105:47] Awkward/funny moments (Dead Outlaw aisle bit, ALW’s “interesting” comment)
• [96:39–124:12] Full breakdown and rankings of all on-air performances
• [138:06–141:16] Double standards in transformations, online discourse about performer personas/politics
• [157:38–164:37] Closing: comedies and seriousness in Tony voting, plea for more appreciation of comedy, friendship segment

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Tone & Takeaways

• Language: Conversational, frank, profanity-laced—true to Matt’s brand.
• Attitude: Enthusiastic, subjective but research-driven, and not afraid to challenge fan or industry “received wisdom.”
• Major Themes:
  • The internet isn’t reality: Social media narratives rarely reflect the actual Broadway community or voter sentiment.
  • Craft over hype: Winning Tonys is (usually) still about craft and emotional impact, not which campaign yells loudest.
  • Importance of Comedy: Both for enjoyment and as an artistic achievement, comedies remain undervalued.
  • Celebrating (and forgiving) imperfection: No one performance or win is without controversy; what matters is honest engagement and community.

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Closing Scene

The episode ends with theatrical impressions, inside jokes, heartfelt thanks, and a loving roast of the Broadway community’s quirks and vanities. Underneath the jokes and gossip, there's a deep, expert appreciation for the history and craft of Broadway—and for the passionate, flawed, and gloriously over-the-top world of the Tony Awards.

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For Broadway fans, this episode is an unfiltered, funny, and exhaustive trip through the highs, lows, and peculiarities of the 2025 Tonys—equal parts history lesson, bitchfest, and love letter to the Great White Way.

Transcript

[A]

I know we broke up, but do.

[B]

You wanna watch the Tonys this year?

[A]

You f ed my brother. Does your big dicked brother wanna watch the Tonys this year? What? Come on. Hey, it's like if birthdays actually had any meaning. Or your wedding was written by Stephen Sondheim. It's like if you're. Hello, all you theater lovers, both out and proud and on the DL, and welcome back to Broadway Breakdown, a podcast discussing the history und legacy of American theater's most exclus address, Broadway. I am your host, Matt Koplik, the least famous and most opinionated of all the Broadway podcast hosts. And we have made it to the finish line. The Tonys are over. The winners have won, their performers have performed, and the Internet has exploded. Thank God the Internet is dead. Long live the Internet. With me today. Wait, did I say who I was?

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And I was Matt Copley. Yeah. The most opinionated and least famous of all the Broadway podcast hosts. With me today is friend of the pod, Daddy of The pod, please, Ms. Robert W. Schneider.

[B]

Oh, hello, Matt. How you doing?

[A]

Oh, hello.

[B]

I have to tell everybody, just so you understand. I looked down at my phone for a second and I didn't realize Matt was starting, but. And I'm looking at my phone, all of a sudden I hear, hi, welcome to Blah, Blah, Blah. I'm Matt Koplik.

[A]

I don't change my voice that much.

[B]

No, it just scared me. I was like, why are you talking to me like that? And then, like, oh, you were recording. Oh, we started.

[A]

We started.

[B]

Thank God. First of all, Matt was doing mic tests before this, and I was gossiping like a little bitch, and I wish. I wish I had known because I was saying some not nice things, and now they're on the air forever.

[A]

You were saying some not nice things about somebody who isn't real. It's fine. It's wasn't actual tea. It was someone we both know. Like, it wasn't. We weren't talking about, like, a Broadway actor, Tea. We were talking about someone we both kind of knew. And just. And just speaking about experiences, I diminished.

[B]

Them in a way I should not have diminished them. And I'm sorry.

[A]

No, but it was a person who had been mean to me. So that's why you were doing that.

[B]

So I did it. So I did a good thing. I did a new test.

[A]

You were being a friend, not knowing that I was doing a mic test. All that matters is that there's, like, 20 seconds out there. You wouldn't even know who this person is.

[B]

Great. At my funeral, just play those 20 seconds.

[A]

I feel like it's the end of Rob's, like, little bitchy moment, but, Rob. Enough of that.

[B]

Sorry.

[A]

Sorry. Enough of that. What are we talking about today?

[B]

Today we're Talking about the 2025 Tony Awards as well as the 2425 season or just the Tony Awards?

[A]

I think it.

[B]

I'm sorry. I should have been more prepared.

[A]

I think they're all flowers in the attic.

[B]

I love that movie.

[A]

Of course you do.

[B]

That was a good movie.

[A]

It was a hot movie.

[B]

Louise Fletcher was the hotel.

[A]

Yeah, she's the grandma.

[B]

Oh, my God.

[A]

But you know what? None of this has anything to do.

[B]

With the Tony Awards.

[A]

The 2025 Tony Awards.

[B]

What do you want to know? Well, so I watched it.

[A]

You watched it? Well, so Rob and I were supposed to be at the same party. Yeah, to watch it.

[B]

Sorry.

[A]

It's fine. Rob had a leak in his apartment that he had to get fixed, so he had to watch it separately. But we watched it on a different.

[B]

And my super was not interested in my thoughts or opinions.

[A]

No. But, you know, we. We.

[B]

What is this? Mincemeat?

[A]

This means meat. What is the operation?

[B]

What is the operation? Who has operation?

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Who I cut you up on now?

[A]

Who has curves?

[B]

No subletter. No matter what. Do you like the roommate? No roommate. Subletter. That's all I kept saying. That's it.

[A]

Anyway, what.

[B]

So first of all, yes, sir.

[A]

Actually, Rob, what is it? Do you have a. A year at the Tonys that you really like, whether it's a ceremony or.

[B]

Like a. Yeah, like a year. Oh, 1986.

[A]

That's the mystery of Edwin Drew.

[B]

Mystery of Edwin Drew.

[A]

What made that a good year?

[B]

Honestly? Yeah, I. When I was 3 years old in 72. When I was 3 years old, my family watched it and they. They. They filmed it. And there's literally video footage of me wearing, like, a Chorus Line t shirt at 3 years old, watching the 1986 Tony Awards. And one of the things that's, like, a big deal for me, honestly, is, like, I just. I'm doing something at 54 below soon, and Rupert Holmes is in it. And Rupert won best score and best book for Mystery of Edwin Drood. And so, like, there's a. Like, there's footage of me, like, watching him on the television. And now, years later, like, he sent me an autographed copy of his book, and to be like, hey, I like working with. I don't know. That one's very special for me.

[A]

I do Love that performance, by the way.

[B]

Yes. So, like. Yes, the. So that's like, the sentimental reason, but also what they did on it, and people forget this, and I thought it was brilliant, is they would. It was the 50th year of the Tonys or the 40th. 40th year of the Tonys. 40th year. And they brought back anyone who had been in one of the best play winners, and they had them, like, recite one line from each of the plays, like, in a montage.

[A]

Oh, interesting.

[B]

And it's. Some people are like, it's very corny. I think it's very moving.

[A]

But that's sort of theater and Broadway.

[B]

Right.

[A]

It's like the line between corny and moving. Yeah.

[B]

And they. And they would do. And they did a celebration of all the musicals that had won. So, like, somebody would sing, like, a lyric from High Button Shoes, and then somebody would sing a lyric from, like. Like King and I. And that, to me, was like, my first education of, like, what musical theater should be, because I was like, oh, I kind of like that song. What's that from? Oh, High Button Shoes. What's High Button Shoes?

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And then I would go and research it. So anyway, the 86 was a big one for me, and I taped every year till 89.

[A]

So. 86, 87. 84 years.

[B]

4 years.

[A]

So you stopped before it got good.

[B]

I recorded 90.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

Did not. My parents forgot to hit the DVR. I mean, hit the record for 91. And I picked up again in 96. No, 95. I picked up in 95 because that was the year Nathan Lane hosted with Gregory Hines and Glenn Close.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

And they were fabulous. And Nathan Lane and Gregory Hines did this amazing medley of, like, songs that women get to sing. And it was fantastic.

[A]

Oh, I'm sure. Yeah. I've watched it. It's a good story. One of my favorite ceremonies is 2000.

[B]

2000.

[A]

Well, a. I really like.

[B]

Is it Contact?

[A]

It's the Contact year.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And it's not because I'm like, oh, my God, I love Contact. I love. That was a year. They did montages. They did video montages of the season.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

Of the designs and of the score writers. And I thought it was done so well. It was a great way to showcase the whole season.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Showcase as many shows as possible and really gave you insight into what goes into making shows.

[B]

Can I ask you a question?

[A]

Yes, babe.

[B]

One of the things that I really loved that they used to do in the 80s, they don't do anymore is they Used to show little scenes from the plays and they would set them up and I thought they were fantastic. Like, I. Like I got what was happening. Like, why have they taken that? Why have they stopped that? Why can't they show a scene from oh Mary? Why can't they show a scene from Purpose?

[A]

Two things. Yeah. One, they are hungry for them ratings. And in their mind, plays do not get the ratings.

[B]

Really?

[A]

Even though things like oh Mary broke through to the pop culture zeitgeist this year. And I think a lot of viewers would have killed to have seen two minutes of Omari.

[B]

Oh, God. Yeah.

[A]

But yeah, that aside, there's also just not as much time now because people always talk about, like, why are all these awards not relegated to the pre broadcast? Like, they used to be able to fit everything. We actually have more categories now than we used to. Like 86 did not have 86 didn't have orchestrations. Revival used to just be revival. It wasn't revival of a musical or play. There was no sound categories, one or two. And then the design categories were mixed with the musicals and the plays. So it was just scenic design, costume design, lighting design. Boom. So there just were fewer awards to give out and so there was more time that you could add stuff. And also we used to have genuinely four best musical nominees and revivals didn't usually perform.

[B]

You are correct. Yeah, you're right.

[A]

I think revivals really start performing regularly until the Guys and Dolls year.

[B]

Was that 92?

[A]

That was 92. Because I think that was Guys and Dolls and Most Happy Fella.

[B]

Yeah. And was it 94 when they first started giving the revival? You know it's Carousel year, right?

[A]

Yes, it's the carousel year. 94 was the first year that they split musical and play.

[B]

Oh, okay. So there used to be a revival category. Then they were like, we gotta differentiate.

[A]

Revival category, I think began in 77 maybe. Or maybe.

[B]

Interesting.

[A]

And it was. It was like innovative production and then it became like innovative or reproduction of a show.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And then I think it eventually just became revival somewhere in the 80s and then it became revival of a musical and play separately. But yeah, 2000 is my favorite ceremony. But I mean, like, there are so many other great lineup years.

[B]

Who hosted in 2000? Was it Rosie? Not Rosie O' Donnell was this year. There was no host. Wasn't there like a year they're like, when there's no host that would bring out like duos.

[A]

Yeah, well, Nathan Lane and Matthew Broderick did. Oh, I think Rosie did 2000.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

She did. Because she did 98 famous. I can look it up. I'm pretty sure she was the host in 2000.

[B]

Well, Matt's looking that up.

[A]

Yes. Well, we can talk and talk about fresh direct, so fuck you. So, hey, I was gonna say watching it on your own. No, no, let's get back to.

[B]

I'm just gonna say Matt's wearing a really cool T shirt that says Thrilla in Manila between Diana and Camilla. Swearing his Diana shirt today. So for you that are picturing what Matt's wearing, he's wearing the Diana shirt.

[A]

People like to picture what I'm not wearing. Yeah, it was Rosie o' donnell and Nathan Lane was like a. Was like a special guest. Oh, yes. So what I was gonna ask you was. While we talk about this ceremony.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

You and I watched in very different situations. I was at a gathering. You were alone.

[B]

You pathetic fuck.

[A]

You were alone, you pathetic old fuck. You were alone. What did you think of the ceremony watching this year?

[B]

Oh, wow. What a question. In terms of like, the overall.

[A]

First of all, the ceremony itself. What do you think of the ceremony itself? First of all?

[B]

Honestly, I thought it was the most beautiful In Memoriam sequence I'd ever seen in my life. And I know that's such a weird place to start the ceremony, but honestly, that really touched me. Although some idiot on Threads or X or whatever the hell it's called now was like, I think it was really offensive that they sang Tomorrow for the.

[A]

Dead people who can't see Tomorrow.

[B]

Yeah. And I was like, it was written by Charles fucking Strauss. He wrote Tomorrow. He died. Like, come on, you asshole.

[A]

Yeah. To say that it's offensive. I'm like, first of all, you want to know who can't be offended? Dead people.

[B]

They're not offended.

[A]

Dead people can't be offended. Please, like, fuck off.

[B]

Charles would not be offended. He would be touched.

[A]

He'd be so touched that he was the most famous composer from Broadway who passed last year. This was inarguably his most famous song.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

Not his best, but his most famous.

[B]

Wanna sing Put on a Happy Face? Yeah. What else do you want him to sing?

[A]

Spanish Rose.

[B]

Come on. Can you imagine?

[A]

The worst one would be. Got a lot of living to do. That'd be the worst one to sing.

[B]

The worst one to do shit.

[A]

Imagine if Cynthia Erivo and Sara Bareilles came out and they went, no. They went like. And now we will be singing rags this land of freedom we had to run to and now we're freedom the.

[B]

Black and white is rolling Their slowly in the background.

[A]

It's all just old headshots of Judy Q.

[B]

Which you probably have, which you probably gave to them.

[A]

I'm serious.

[B]

This is my collection.

[A]

Look at this stuff. Isn't it neat?

[B]

Neat? No, sir. It's actually kind of upsetting.

[A]

Judy cute is taking out a restraining.

[B]

Order more than anything. So anyway, yes. I thought. I loved the In Memoriam. I know that sounds so weird.

[A]

No, but I will say it was a very. I thought it was a very tasteful, beautifully done In Memoriam.

[B]

Yes. And you know, actually tasteful. A really nice way I think of describing the entire ceremony, like everything felt tasteful. There was nothing to me that felt very visceral. Like, you know, there's some performances where I think like when you're watching like, and I'm telling you I'm not going to use like visceral Michael G to Grand Hotel visceral Caroline or change visceral. There really wasn't anything like that for me. Maybe Audra's performance came closest for me and friends. Matt's eyes literally just filled with such hate.

[A]

How dare you.

[B]

I. You. I literally saw your eyes narrow. No, I don't know what my friend is talking about.

[A]

Stop it.

[B]

I'm just telling you. I'm just telling you. What, what is this?

[A]

What is this? No, I, I feel, I hate that this has been the season where I have to say over and over again to everybody, like to remind them to. I hate that I have to remind people over and over again how much I love that. Like, I think she's the queen. She's fucking awesome.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

But I've had to remind people that I think that when I talk about that how much this gypsy underwhelmed me. We'll get to Audra's performance in a second. I agree with you. I think that the performances of the shows this year, I thought there were no full on duds, but there was nothing. That really was for the record books.

[B]

Oh, keep talking because I want to read you something if that's okay.

[A]

May I read something better than anyone I know?

[B]

Better than anybody I know? Rose. My good friend Josh Ellis and I asked him if I could quote him on this and he said yes, Josh Ellis friends. If you don't know who he is, he was a Broadway press agent in the 70s and 80s. He did 42nd street, into the Woods. The list goes on and on. And he sent an email to all of his friends and he said, depressingly bad choices on Tony Broadway. That's. That was the Headline. And this was his first paragraph. And I want to know what you think about this, Matt. He said, if your show is up for best musical, picking the exact right musical highlight to present on the Tony Awards broadcast is a monumental choice. You must choose something that makes complete sense without context, because 99% of the viewing audience needs to be seduced quickly and passionately. They blew their chance. Sad. Do you feel like that's an accurate statement? Do you feel like.

[A]

Well, I think saying that they blew their chance implies that everyone did a bad job. And I think the thing is, no one did a bad job, but I don't think anyone did a very good job. There are some shows that I found. I don't know what they could have done. Like, I don't know what Floyd Collins could have done, because that show is so unmarketable. And I am actually kind of happy they chose the call because I thought that was the best number when I saw the show, and I thought that they did the best they could considering, like, what Jeremy Jordan does in the actual production. I'm like, you can't recreate that everyday music hall.

[B]

So you saw the shows this year? I did. So do you feel like the numbers that were presented were the. Like, if you. If someone said to you, hey, Matt, you have to pick a number from each of these shows, like, do you feel like those are the same numbers you would have picked, like, for, like.

[A]

Oh, no, no, no, no. Again, it's so.

[B]

Okay, let's go off topic. I was just curious.

[A]

No, no, no, no. It's all. It's all on topic. I didn't mean get. By the way, I didn't get to read the most recent reviews of the podcast. We'll do that after the next part.

[B]

Oh, I'm sorry. No, no.

[A]

I just. I. My brain is all over. Told the people who wrote reviews for the podcast recently, because I read them on.

[B]

Oh, yeah, yeah.

[A]

That I would give them their flowers this episode, and I will. We'll do it after the first break.

[B]

Sorry, friends.

[A]

Nah, you're. They're fine. They. They. They live. People who listen to this podcast have learned how to be patient because this podcast is long form, baby. But actually, this is a good time to announce this. Robbie Breakdown has launched a sub stack which is really exciting, and if you want, you can subscribe to it. There's a link to it in the episode description for the podcast. I took a quick peek at our Discord channel, which, by the way, currently has over 300 members. Very exciting. We launched the substack privately on Discord a few days ago. We're recording this the Monday after the Tonys. We launched the substack a few days ago on Thursday, and in the last, like, four days, it now has 100 subscribers, which is really cool. But on the Discord, people were concerned that Substack was going to replace the Discord, and it's not. I'm here to tell you now I'm kind of speaking out of turn. I'm not supposed to be saying this. Discord is going to stay. I'm glad that everybody really is enjoying it. We're figuring it out. Substack is going to be another thing we are doing with Broadway Breakdown. We are trying to get as many eyeballs on it right now as possible, which is why I am sort of putting all my effort and all of my interactions with listeners on Substack in this moment.

[B]

I'm going to ask you a really stupid question because I'm 100. What is Discord and what is a substack?

[A]

Discord is a channel where people can communicate on a specific subject that they love, and that can be theater in general, a specific podcast, a YouTube channel. Like, a lot of YouTube channels have Discord channels where, like.

[B]

Is it literally like discord.com like, what is.

[A]

Yeah, yeah, that's literally what it is. And the admins create multiple pages on the Discord. So it's like if you want to talk, it's like for. On. On the. On the Discord channel for Broadway Breakdown, we have like a welcome page where people can introduce themselves. We have a channel for the podcast itself where people can write in about, like, the newest episode. Things like that. You can also on Discord so they can respond to you. So a lot of people me on there sometimes. We have a channel for the Tony Awards. We have a channel for. Whenever we do a new series on the podcast, we have a channel for that so people can put in information on the shows that we're going to be covering. So when we did grab bag, people would send in media that they found on YouTube or whatever. Yeah, it's a really great spot. And people. There's a channel for theater talk. Like on the latest news, there's one for ticket advice. Random. For like random things that people saw that day or feel that.

[B]

Is it like a message board?

[A]

Kind of. Yeah. It's basically that. But it's unlike Broadway worlds where people can create a thread and.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And eventually, like, it will die if people stop responding to it. On Discord, all the threads are Just sort of in place, and you can just always contribute. Where Substack is a little easier for me is I am using Substack to expand the outreach of Broadway Breakdown, and I'm posting articles on there. Some of them are recaps of podcast episodes of Broadway Breakdown, and some will be new articles and reviews that I'll be writing originally on my own. So people who like my reviews on Instagram can join this substack and subscribe to the substack and see all the things. By the way, guys, Rob was not primed for any of this. He didn't know I was going to talk about any of this. This is a genuine interaction we're having.

[B]

Yeah. I'm so sorry. I really don't know.

[A]

This isn't Rob being like. And what is it, Matthew? Tell me. I'm going on the fly here. But. So people who want to read my writings or want to get newsletters want to message me directly and don't want to deal with Instagram. You can message me directly on Substack also. It's a good way to support me. It's kind of like Discord meets, I don't know, like Pinterest. Like a Tumblr board meets. Meets Patreon. Because you can also. Because you can also pledge a subscription fee either monthly or annually. And we've had. It's free right now. Substack is free. There's no paywall. We will be eventually implementing a paywall where there will be some content that is free for everybody. You can read it, whatever you want, and then other content that is going to be exclusively for subscribers in addition to certain interactions with me that will be exclusive to subscribers. And that's not me being like, I have to be in a VIP section. So much is that there's only so much I can do and only so many listeners I can respond to. And so I will be. Discord will be staying. I'm so happy people are finding the Discord. We have over 300 members. It keeps growing.

[B]

Great.

[A]

So that's gonna stay. My input is gonna be more on Substack, not because I dislike Discord, because we're trying to phase it out. It's just easier for me to communicate with listeners on Substack, just the way that that website is figured out. But also, people don't have to interact with me on substack. Plenty of people still interact with me on Instagram. So if you. There were some comments in Discord where they're like, I don't want to have to learn a new website, which I totally get. I'm like. And in that case, you can just join the sub stack if you just want to read my shit.

[B]

Oh, wow.

[A]

If you like. If you love listening to the podcast. But you're like, I missed when Matt used to write Instagram reviews.

[B]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, that.

[A]

That's coming back on substack.

[B]

That's great, isn't it? We're excited for explaining that. I really didn't know that. I really didn't.

[A]

And it's again, and to emphasize right now it is free. Right now. You can pledge to. To be a subscriber, but you will not be charged. We will. We will make an announcement when that will be happening. But it's new. This substack is five days old, and we're figuring it out as we go. Yeah. So you'll also get on the ground floor and see how it grows. So hopefully it grows really nicely. This is to say. And then we're going to go to a commercial in a hot second. This is to say, I used substack to ask people for questions and comments. They wanted us to cover on this Tony Award. And so something that people asked was, you know, how would you rank the performances of the ceremony? And I rewatched everything today and, well, I will. I'm going to go through these specifically in a minute after the commercial, but I want to say when we eventually get to the rankings and my thoughts on specific performances and whatever. I don't think any performance was bad. I don't think any performance was great either.

[B]

None of them, like, middle, middle, everything.

[A]

I thought everything was basically middle, middle, middle minus and middle plus. I thought nobody shat the bed. Nobody embarrassed themselves, but nobody that I watched was, like, sold a thousand tickets.

[B]

Can I ask you a question?

[A]

Yes, babe.

[B]

Is there a time we're on a Tony broadcast where you're like, oh, my God, they did shit the bed. Oh, yeah, yeah.

[A]

Oh, I'm trying to think in the last, like, sorry. I don't think anything. Super recent. Yeah, I think everyone plays a little too safe now to do that. I mean, I thought that. I remember thinking the Tootsie performance is really bad and that, like, they picked the wrong song and the wrong staging. I thought that I was at the. I was at the Tonys the year of 2018, and I remember watching the Mean Girls performance and going, oh, you guys didn't do a good job. Not. Not the performers. Like, I thought that they did a bad job creating a medley for that show. Okay, what was an other. Was it another one? I thought that Carousel picked the wrong thing. They picked Blow High, blow low.

[B]

From 2018.

[A]

Yeah, 2018. I thought that. I thought the Visit kind of shot the bed. They. Because they've wanted to focus.

[B]

Oh, my God, I forgot that was nominated.

[A]

Right. Well, they focused on Cheetah, which was the correct thing to do, but they. And they were like, well, in the show, this is really moving. I'm like, right. We had 85 minutes to build up to this. And so people are watching Cheetah just stand there and going, love and love alone. And I'm watching going, oh, no one understands what's happening.

[B]

Can I tell you my visit story very quickly?

[A]

Is it a brief visit?

[B]

It's a brief visit. It's a brief. Dare you. When I went to go see the Visit, I got my seat and it was up in the balcony, and so it was on the edge, like on the. On the. On the aisle thing. And the usher said to me. He goes, well, I got good news for you. He's like, the good news is there's nobody sitting in the center, so if you want to move to the center, you can. He goes, the bad news is, from the center, you can really see the show. That was the Usher. That was the Usher.

[A]

I didn't mind the visit, but I also understand completely why people hated it.

[B]

I wanted to see that, like, in a small, little black box underground somewhere.

[A]

Everyone I know who has worked on it has said that the best version was the version they did right before John Doyle got in there. They said that the problem with John Doyle is that he cut all the fat, but he also cut some good stuff. And that by streamlining the show, a lot of really important shit also went away.

[B]

Oh, interesting.

[A]

And so it became a much colder.

[B]

Weirder show because I love the play.

[A]

I like the play a lot. I want to watch the movie with Ingrid Bergman.

[B]

Oh, I've never seen the movie. Oh, sorry.

[A]

No. But anyway, sorry, friends. So we will get to all of that in a second. We will talk, actually about the stuff on Substack. We will talk more about the Tonys. I swear to God we will. But I hope people are just enjoying this so far.

[B]

I am.

[A]

First off, Rob, let us take a quick break.

[B]

Billy, I beg to differ with you.

[A]

How do you mean? You're the top. Yeah. You're an arrow collar.

[B]

You're the top.

[A]

You're a Coolidge dollar. You're the nimble tread of the feet of Freddy. And we're back. So before we get into the Tonys. I know, I know. I'm teasing you guys. I'm teasing you guys. But I swear to God, there's a reason I'm going to give the flowers to our three new reviews on the Apple podcast app, and we will continue with some of the substack questions and the Tonys in general. First up, please cue the Lightning of the Piazza Overture. Five stars by Bobby Booby. Love it already. And the title is. You had me at Sally Murphy. This is the best Broadway podcast out there. I have struggled to find Broadway podcasts that I can tolerate for more than five minutes. I can more than tolerate Broadway Breakdown and the lengthy episodes. This isn't a read, I swear. Thanks, Bobby. I know it's not. Matt knows his theater history, and his analysis of current Broadway trends is always spot on. I break into a giggle fit every time he brings up Nickelodeon acting. I call it Disney Channel acting, but it's the exact same same thing. As someone who is frequently called a theater snob, it's refreshing to listen to someone who is as particular as I am. He also worships at the altar of Sally Murphy and Judy Kuhn.

[B]

Jesus.

[A]

Okay, like, he likes the correct wild party, doesn't call cast recordings soundtracks, and is obsessed with the 94 carousel. All pluses in my book.

[B]

I did see this review on your Instagram. I thought it was great. He says you love the correct wild party. Lachiusa.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

Okay, great. Keep going.

[A]

Yes. Continue on, continue on. Five stars. The Brain of Broadway by GM Matt's Broadway Breakdown makes me a smarter critic. His encyclopedic knowledge and commitment to research makes his podcast one for intelligent theatergoers. Yeah, not for you dummies out there. We don't want you dummies. I can hardly wait to listen to his new offerings when they're available. If you love Broadway, you'll get hooked quickly and you'll get critiques with strong opinions and that are well thought out and explained. Subscribe today. You'll be glad you're listening. Thank you. And last one, but not least by shm.

[B]

Your mom.

[A]

No, s mom. Oh, s mom. 21, otherwise known as Sham. Five stars. And it's called Matty. I beg to differ with ya.

[B]

She's Irish.

[A]

In your version, I think it's a reference to Patti LuPone.

[B]

Oh, I'm sorry, I'm sorry.

[A]

It's okay, guys. Rob is pretty not smart.

[B]

Jesus.

[A]

It's a podcast. They don't know.

[B]

Ah, that got me. Okay, keep going. Sorry, sorry. Okay, sorry.

[A]

Re Cue the line of Piazza over.

[B]

Sorry. Sorry.

[A]

I hit it, Ted.

[B]

Overture. Let's go.

[A]

Okay, Maddie, I beg to differ with you. I only came to appreciate theater late in life if I'm allowed to consider my 30s later and my introduction to theater. You're not in your later life. And my introduction to theater was predominantly shows and revivals produced in the 2000 teens and onward. The encyclopedic Broadway knowledge that Matt delivers. Encyclopedic? Everyone keeps calling me that in every episode of the podcast. Sends me down numerous Google rabbit holes, which has consequently expanded my own Broadway knowledge far beyond the years that I've been an audience member. His ability to rattle off a choreographer or sound designer from an obsession obscure musical revival that occurred decades ago never fails to impress.

[B]

It is very impressive.

[A]

I hate it for myself.

[B]

It's impressive.

[A]

Yes, until you're trying to go on a date with Jonathan Groff and he goes, I'm sorry, my best friend Lea Michele is coming in and we just don't have time for this. Okay, well, I'm kidding. I wouldn't go on a date with him. His reviews are not only thoughtful and nuanced, amidst the humor, he approaches evaluation of theater craft with the same tenacity exhibited by Wayne Newton's plastic surgeon. What was.

[B]

Say that one more time.

[A]

His reviews are not only thoughtful and nuanced, amidst the humor, he approaches each. He approaches evaluation of theater craft with the same tenacity exhibited by Wayne Newton's plastic surgeon.

[B]

That's funny.

[A]

Isn't Wayne Newton.

[B]

He's had like 900 plastic surgeries. So this plastic surgeon's like, I'm gonna do it this time.

[A]

Wait, you know who I'm thinking of. Okay, Wayne Knight played Newman.

[B]

Yeah. Wayne Knight is different than Wayne Newton.

[A]

Okay, that's who I was thinking of. That's who I was thinking of. So much for encyclopedia. So much for encyclopedic knowledge. Sorry, the work is never done. In giant, bold letters and exclamation point. I originally wrote an additional paragraph to this review, but if there's one thing I've learned from listening to the show, it's good to not be too precious when it comes to trimming things down.

[B]

That's funny.

[A]

Well, that's also me talking about shows, not just my own. I always. I also don't want to upset that one person that thinks the housekeeping section is too long. In the event that this gets read, I look forward to making many more ridiculous faces in public places while trying to squash my earbud induced laughter. Also, I gotta Say, fuck the people who say that the housekeeping is too long. This is the podcast. This is what we're doing.

[B]

What do you mean?

[A]

Whenever I say we have some housekeeping to do, we have to read some reviews. I gotta tell what's wrong with that? There's nothing wrong with it. I had one episode where I was saying, like, here's what's gonna happen on the podcast for a little while with the discord. And to be fair, I was talking about it for, like, eight minutes, but I was being.

[B]

You're excited.

[A]

And I was going in depth about it.

[B]

What's wrong with that?

[A]

But I. I've learned to try to trim down my. My tangents.

[B]

People don't like it, they can skip it.

[A]

Yeah, no, there's a fast forward button.

[B]

Yeah. Okay.

[A]

So the first thing on Substack was I'm still reeling from everything, but would love an overall recap and would love to hear a conversation about why shows like Just in Time and Gypsy were shut out. You did not see Just In Time, did you?

[B]

I did not see Just In Time.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

I called, I read Just In Time, but I did not see Just In Time.

[A]

Like, you read the script? Yeah, yeah, I read the script after the fact too. They sent me a script after I saw it. They gave me and my mom very lovely seats. My thing I said on Substack after the performance was Bobby Darin is still nowhere to be found in that building. Which is true. And I don't appreciate how people have let it slide because we like Jonathan.

[B]

Groff because, like, there's no resemblance whatsoever to Bobby Darin.

[A]

It's not even like, oh, you know, he doesn't have to put Silly Putty on his face. He shouldn't have to do all the things. Like, I'm not even. I'm not asking for a full transformation. I'm asking for something like the essence. Yeah. Like something to differentiate between Groff and him. And if you've seen the show, you know that there's a bookend where it begins with Groff being like, I'm Jonathan Groff and I'm gonna be Bobby Darin for the evening. And then it ends with him being like, and here's why I love Bobby Darin. And that's all well and good. I'm a little convinced that they added that because Groff doesn't do anything to be Bobby Darin.

[B]

Oh, interesting.

[A]

He's got the charisma of Bobby Darin.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

He's so good at bringing a room together. He's like, He's a genuine star in the sense of like, that boy has, you know, just good energy coming out of his pores.

[B]

Yeah. He's so talented.

[A]

Out of his sweaty, sweaty pores. And he's a very lovely singer. And he's so enthusiastic and like, is giving a very good performance. In Just In Time, he is ultimately giving my third favorite performance in his category. My favorite is Jeremy Jordan and Floyd Collins, who's giving a career best stunning performance.

[B]

Who's number two? Darren.

[A]

Darren Criss.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Who is wonderful and maybe happy ending. And I think if one. If there's one thing that the Tony performance did, it actually kind of showed even further the details of his work in it.

[B]

So fucking good, man.

[A]

So good. And then Groff is third. But that's also a very good category. Like, no one in that category was bad, but I think ultimately Just in Time just wasn't good enough. Like, it's. It's a very fun time, but they don't really do anything new or memorable with it. It's a fun time in the theater. And then I feel like with every block you walk away from it, your memories of it get more fading.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

You remember Gracie Lawrence singing the Absolute Bejesus out of who's Sorry now. You remember thinking like, oh my God, the marathon that Groff went through. But then when you're thinking about the craftsmanship of it, I feel like it gets a little fuzzier over time.

[B]

Did Bobby. Was Bobby Darin's life like, I don't say worthy of a musical, but was there enough there to like, oh, yeah, we can tell a story about this guy.

[A]

Absolutely. And I think they actually had the right attitude about how to approach his life, which was that it's very non stop from Hamilton of like the. Why do you write like you're running out of time? Because he died young.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And he was told from a young age that he was going to die young. And so he very much was like, I gotta hit the ground running. So that was sort of the whole energy of the show. The thing is they kind of got away from that in the second act. But also I'm sure that he kind of got away from that as he. As his career kind of faded away from him. But that is. He's got meat in there. And also like, he grew up thinking that his sister or that his mom was his sister and his grandma was his mom.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Which is a very late in the show. Dramatic reveal.

[B]

A little surprise.

[A]

It's a little. It's a little. Okay. Which one of you is my mother?

[B]

Let's imagine that the show goes other places. Like, is it a show that, like, you. You're coming to see the show because it's Jonathan Groff, or is it. Well, no, we could put anybody, really, in the show. It's Jonathan Grof.

[A]

Yeah. If the only. You would have to alter it for other performers. The. The thing I was told was that a specific major person on the team who had, like, major creative say over it said that they wanted this to be Jonathan Groff's Boy From Oz.

[B]

Oh, okay.

[A]

There's a difference. I would actually would argue. I think Just in Time is a better constructed show than Boy from Oz.

[B]

Really?

[A]

Okay. I think Boy from Oz was not a good musical, but Boy from Oz was. Boy from Oz was Hugh Jackman's funny girl. It was a bio musical that wasn't very good, but set him up for major success. And it wasn't watch Hugh Jackman be Hugh Jackman. It was Watch Hugh Jackman save this show. And this is not Watch Jonathan Groff save Just in Time. Just In Time actually kind of is. It's a solid piece, but it isn't that. It's. Watch Jonathan Groff be Jonathan Groff. And under the guise of her doing a Bobby Darin musical. And as I said, it's a fun time. It's sort of like Here Lies Love meets Jersey Boys in the way that it's staged and designed and put together. But ultimately, I do think that there just wasn't enough meat on the bone for people. And that Groff himself isn't. What he's doing is a Herculean effort of a marathon of a performance. And he does almost everything under the sun a performer could do. The one thing he doesn't do is. Is do Bobby Darin. There's nothing he's doing in it. That's a surprise. It's just impressive.

[B]

Yeah. Yeah.

[A]

And I think that's a key thing. When we talk about performers going down this ceremony and the winners of, like, People who we thought could have been a contender and didn't win, it's like, well, what they did was impressive, but it didn't surprise us.

[B]

Yeah. I mean, and pretty early on, it's always been like, well, it's Darren Chris's Tony to lose. Right. Wasn't that pretty much the consensus or.

[A]

No, I think when the season began. Well, first of all, people had it out for maybe happy ending, which, to be fair, before anyone saw the show, they just had a. They couldn't beat the Bad press of, like, they had to delay a month. They couldn't raise the money. Like, the show might not even come to previews. It was. It. It had all the makings of a disaster. And then people started watching, and they're like, oh, no, this show is actually quite special. And then it became Darren's absolutely getting nominated. Is he gonna win? I don't know. Tom Francis won the Olivier. Who's to say? And then there were shows coming down the pike that everybody just kept being like, well, let's see what happens. Oh, they announced Jeremy Jordan for Floyd Collins. Let's see how that goes. That could be Jeremy's Tony. Like, Darren was always in the conversation as a nominee. It was never like, Darren's gonna win.

[B]

Interesting.

[A]

I went on Mike on this podcast last week to say that I thought Darren was gonna win.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And I. I will also say I had other predictions that day that when, like, two hours after we released the episode, I regretted, like, half of my predictions.

[B]

Like, what?

[A]

I. I predicted Jasmine Amy Rogers was gonna win for Boop on Mike. And then, like, two days later regretted saying that.

[B]

Why'd you regret it?

[A]

Because I was talking to voters.

[B]

Ah.

[A]

I was getting the vibe. And I. And then what the ultimate thing that happened was. Is it Michael Paulson from the New York Times.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Released his voter survey that, I think the day after the episode came out, like, that Friday. And this was. And so he. So he had been polling 25% of voters, people who submitted stuff early, because I would argue, like, 60% of voters submit everything, like the. On the deadline on that Friday, because they want to see shows multiple times, as many times as they can.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And the moment you submit your ballot, you can't get those comps anymore.

[B]

Yeah, that is true.

[A]

So there are a lot of people who wait till that Friday. And I don't know if you remember this, but a very specific profile came out in the New Yorker about who. About a woman who won a Tony for playing Rose. And her name's not Tyne Daly.

[B]

Tyne Daly says Keisha Lewis.

[A]

Tyne Daly called Keisha Lewis a bitch.

[B]

Tyne Daly. What an asshole.

[A]

And the. And the. And the. And the profiler was like, the world cannot know the things that Tyne Daily said. She's simply too precious.

[B]

We'll say Patti LuPone. Believe that.

[A]

Which one did she play on? Cagney and Lacy. She was Lacy.

[B]

She was. Oh, God, I should know. They're taking my gay card away as they speak. I remember she hob. That's what was the husband's Hov Harv Lacey.

[A]

She was Lacy. Okay, let's just say Tyne Daly was Lacy. And we'll say the profiler was like, the world cannot know what Lacy said about Audrey McDonald.

[B]

Every middle aged gay man is yelling at me right now because I don't know who's Cagney and who's Lacy.

[A]

Whatever. They couldn't tell me all the names of the actresses in the original production. A smile. Everyone's gay cards are revoked. But the point is. So that profile comes out and I said on mic, I said, rob is.

[B]

Still thinking she was Christine because the other one was Mary Beth.

[A]

So I'm going to say it's Christine, Christine, Lacy, and Mary Beth Cagney. I don't know, Rob. You're fucking useless. Point. On. On the, on the episode. On the episode with Sam Ekman, I was saying that I had been to two different events. One for maybe happy ending, one for death becomes her. And I was talking to voters and they were saying, oh, well, everyone's gonna vote for Audra now. Because that profile. And I said, oh, so are you all voting for Audra? They said, well, no, but others will. And I was like, if that's how people feel. The last time that mentality was around was everyone thinking, well, Chadwick Boseman's gonna win the Oscar. I'm gonna vote for Anthony Hopkins, because that's who I liked more. And except for. Except for one person at the death becomes her party, who, for the sake of this story, I later learned that his nationality was not German, but he sounded German. And it's funnier if he's German. And so I'll just say we were in this group talking about it because at every party it became, well, who's. Who's your vote for Best Actress?

[B]

It would be Nicole Scherzinger.

[A]

No, what it was was, it was Nicole Audra. Nicole Audra. Jasmine. Jasmine. And then this person goes, well, Iversink.

[B]

Vermeer, good for him.

[A]

But it was great. But then I was at another event later when I was talking about it and I said it so flippantly, and everyone just said, say that again. Because it was the cadence and it was the accent, or I was like, oh, yeah, everyone's voting for Audra or Nicole and a couple are voting for Jasmine, except for one German who said Verleinwaldsig Vermegan. And at this event there I just. It became the new catchphrase.

[B]

I'm voting for Megan.

[A]

I'm voting for Megan.

[B]

That's okay, great. Well, I'm Sorry, Germany.

[A]

Well, he was. He's from Argentina, but he's actually from Iowa.

[B]

I just.

[A]

Well, listen, there are Germans in Argentina.

[B]

Trust me, I know. My family's been looking for them. I know.

[A]

Talk about Evita Peron. Am I right? But. So your Soprano sounds like Charlotte Ray.

[B]

No.

[A]

So, but. So, but. So I would say, you know, people.

[B]

If.

[A]

If people in. In that first week post the Patty article were the ones submitting their votes while the, like, Audra love was palpable. And Michael Paulson says in his survey, it's neck and neck with Audra and Nicole. I was like, if that's how it was in the week when this was like, hot.

[B]

Yeah. Yeah.

[A]

In the week where it's gonna simmer down. It's not. It's gonna tilt.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And that's when I went, oh, it's Nicole, of course. Well. And I said in previous episodes, this is why I should have always stuck with my gut. I'd said in previous episodes, gypsy's not winning revival. Sunset is. And I don't think either. I don't think Sunset is a brilliant, perfect revival. It's the most fun I had of. Of between. Between that and Gypsy.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

But it was clearly going to win. And I just went, I don't know how you vote for Sunset and not for Nicole and how you don't vote for Gypsy but vote for Audra.

[B]

Correct.

[A]

It was one of those things where people were talking about it in theory.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

I was like, but when you. The moment it's push comes to shove, how do you do that? I just don't understand it. And ultimately, that's what happened was people voted for Sunset. I would have voted for Floyd Collins, but also I would have voted for Jennifer Smard. That said.

[B]

Not Megan.

[A]

Not Megan. I. I very much enjoy Megan.

[B]

Leave the house now. You drink.

[A]

But Jennifer Simard does this thing. And I. And listen, I love her, and I think we should always hold our divas accountable. She's great in the show. She's absolutely giving a special performance. There are times when her Helen, after the potion voice becomes a little bit of a. How would I describe this? Like a slutty frog on Futurama where she's like, can you be more specific? Right. Well, what it. What it is, is, it's. It's. I come back to the. The let's Run Away Together song on the recording.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

And every time she does her, like, we walk off into the sunset together again, just spitballing. And Chris Heber says, okay, I need. You're Gonna be Chris Heber for me.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

I need you to say Helen.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

Ready to go. Helen. Right.

[B]

Oh, that was good.

[A]

Helen. Right?

[B]

That was very good.

[A]

Right.

[B]

Put that on your special skills.

[A]

I will. It hurts like the. Like, I need to do it. Earnest. It's. It's that. And I love it. I love it so much. It's so specific to her, but it is a bit of like, I'm a little slutty frog on the other show. Futurama. What?

[B]

Ask her. I dare you to ask.

[A]

I will.

[B]

Where'd you find the voice?

[A]

And she'll be like, I was watching Futurama and I said, what if there was a frog on there who could just get plowed from every orifice?

[B]

Yeah. And that's what I went with.

[A]

Yep.

[B]

Thank you.

[A]

What if there was a frog on Futurama who had a past life on Fire island and learned all the right things?

[B]

What a specific visual choice.

[A]

Right.

[B]

I'm writing that down.

[A]

Say it again. Say Helen.

[B]

Helen.

[A]

Word.

[B]

That was good, man.

[A]

Thank you. Ernest. I want you to know I never blamed you. Madeline pursued you. She. She's a woman. What were you supposed to do?

[B]

Oh, it's so nice to hear the dialogue. I'm sorry. Talking over it.

[A]

Yeah. Right. And then. Yeah. When Rob saw Death becomes where everybody be talking. I also just.

[B]

I'm not happy.

[A]

You're not happy. I also love. Whoopsie. Did I just say cum twice? Another. I just can't get cum out of my mouth. I love it. I love it so much. But it is a slutty frog on Futurama.

[B]

That's. Listen. God love her.

[A]

God love her.

[B]

I think it's.

[A]

That's why she's a talent alien.

[B]

So wait a minute. So the question was, why was just in time shut out?

[A]

And why was Gypsy shut out?

[B]

And why was Gypsy shut out?

[A]

People don't. People don't like this Gypsy. I've been saying. I've been saying this for months on the podcast. And I swear, guys, I'm not trying to take anything down. I didn't hate this Gypsy. I liked parts of it. I was severely underwhelmed by others. When I tell you that I get messages from people in the community. And if there's one thing I should also say as we continue with this, social media isn't real. When people go, well on Twitter, they're all exploding. On TikTok, everyone's saying this. I love. I love theater fans. I really do. And, like, without them, nothing would be successful. Nothing would have outreach.

[B]

We Are them.

[A]

We are them. We remain them. But when I tell you that ultimately this is. I do have to give. I have to give a hard truth here, and I'm gonna pivot then with my own self. Social media theater fans are not in the room where it happens. They are online writing a narrative and bullying people into their narrative. And if there's one thing Tony voters hate being told, it's who to vote for.

[B]

Correct?

[A]

Do not. You do not. It's also like, the moment Ben Brantley decided to, like, throw his whole pussy into writing an article about Audra's rose's turn, I was like, she's. They're making her lose the Tony because they are telling people to vote for her. When the Patty thing happened. And then, like, a day later, Time magazine was like, guess what? She's gonna be on the COVID of Time. And it's the day after the Tonys, I was like, that's so presumptuous. And there are so many voters who are going to hate that. Don't tell me who to vote for. And, like, if people just stopped doing that. If they were just like, if the. If the. If the promotion was, hey, she is one of the greatest performers we have right now, and what she is doing is so different for her and. And is capturing audiences all over. Like, and let's break down what her rose is. That would be getting voters on her side. It's the smartest thing that maybe Happy Ending's team did was, like, they didn't go around going, it would be really important if Hugh park won because that would. For Asian representation. He would be the first Asian writer to win for score and book of a Musical. Like, no, no. The. The team of maybe Happy Ending is going around breaking down the show to people being like, here's what the work we did and why we think the show works.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And voters go, that's craft. And I'm voting for craft. And that is what does it. So that's where I'm being a little harsh with social media fans. I mean, like, I love the enthusiasm. Social media isn't real, and you're not actually there to experience it. Now also, I'm also not totally there to experience it. I'm sort of there. I'm like, I've got one foot in, one foot out. And when I tell you that I don't take myself as, like, influencer or as a person who's, like, fully in the community. Seriously, I have connections. I have a foot in the door. People know me. But I'm not huge. And there was no greater recognition of that than when I went to the maybe happy ending party afterwards where I got invited, because, again, I know people, and I got there before my friends got there. I got there an hour after the party started because I was trying to wait until my friends got there, and it was another 45 minutes till they were there. And you wanna know what I did for those 45 minutes, Rob?

[B]

Sit in the corner.

[A]

Mm. I sat in the corner on my phone, nursing my bourbon because there was no one I knew. There was no one there who recognized me. And I. But also, I didn't sit there going, how dare they? I sat there being like, of course they wouldn't. I'm nobody. I'm like. I'm like, nobody. Plus, you know, I'm not. I'm not the sex frog on Fire island that Jen Simard is impersonating, but I'm also not Jen Simard.

[B]

It's. That stuff is tricky. Those parties are always.

[A]

Yeah, but. But then the thing happened was, like, eventually my friend showed up, and then, you know, we were hanging out, and that led to conversations with other people where then I did meet people who I did sort of know.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Or they knew me. But, like, for almost an hour, I'm, like, wandering around just, like, buying time till people I knew were there.

[B]

And.

[A]

And that was a party where everyone else knew each other.

[B]

I hate that.

[A]

It wasn't like I was alone with a lot of other people. Like, everyone was gathered, and I was like, the wandering orphan. So I'm not saying this to people being like, I'm from on high. I get it. But also, I'm sitting here going, like, I don't do this podcast saying that I'm gonna bully Tony voters into voting who I want.

[B]

No, you express your opinion and you hope somebody goes, oh, I agree with that. What a great way of saying it. Or somebody looks at it and goes, oh, I feel totally opposite. And that's what it should. That's what it should be.

[A]

It should be.

[B]

There's no. It's art. It's no right or wrong. It's no black or white. Like, but this the consistent.

[A]

Unless it's the opening number of boop. Then it is black and white.

[B]

But, like, the consistent bullying. And, you know, also, here's the other thing. Not to be an asshole. I wish, like, before you posted anything about theater, you are required to take a theater business class. So that way you're like, before I put this opinion out there, is it actually a valid opinion?

[A]

Do you know who knows almost nothing about the industry?

[B]

Who?

[A]

Theater fans on social media.

[B]

I was like, do you know who.

[A]

Knows absolutely nothing about how the nominating process works, how the voting process works, how running costs work? Most theater fans, well, that's. And they don't want to know. They keep spreading misinformation. It pisses me the fuck off.

[B]

Well, they'll say something and then you go on to correct them and they yell at you. And I'm like, that's. This is a fact.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Like, this is not an opinion. This is how this works.

[A]

People going, why did they choose six nominees for best actor and female, five for actress? That's sexist. I'm like, they didn't.

[B]

It's. It's the percentages there.

[A]

And literally this, this year onwards, they've made it so much harder for there to be more than one, more than that number of nominees in a category. It has to be an exact tie. And even then, I. From what I understand, if I read the rulebook correctly, because a listener sent it to me, they're like, I think this is what this means. They have to gather again the nominators and vote again. And if there's a tie again, then they will stick to the expanded category. But they want. They're trying really hard not to have that happen.

[B]

I heard what goes on in those nominating meetings.

[A]

Well, supposedly. Supposedly it's not about. I'm convinced it's not supposed to be about. I'm convincing you to nominate who I want you to nominate. It's supposed to be. We're talking about the work. But I'm sure there are opinionated people.

[B]

That's what it's supposed to be.

[A]

I'm sure there are opinionated people who then bully others.

[B]

Yes, yes, yes.

[A]

But that's also why nominators only get three years.

[B]

Yes. Which is good.

[A]

I know a few people who are gonna be nominators this coming year for the first time. It's very exciting.

[B]

Good for them. Good for them, good for them. Vote what you think is the best performance.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

The best director, the best writing. That's. That is what your vote should be.

[A]

And I was.

[B]

I was at all the other crap.

[A]

I was at an event for, AKA the agency, advertising agency, the Saturday before the Tonys. I was speaking to a few people, some friends, some people I didn't know. And they were producers, they were agents, people on shows nominated that year. And we were talking about, like, who they voted for. And it was a matter of. I was like, no, like, cone of Silence. I'm not gonna say your name. And I want to emphasize I spoke to like 10 different people so no one can trace back.

[B]

Yeah, of course, of course.

[A]

I, I never like to spill that something that only one person told me. I never wanted to get traced back to anybody who didn't sign off on their opinions being told. But like a lot of them said Nicole and they're like, I just, that was the performance that stuck with me. Like, I still, like, I saw it in November, I went back to see it this past month and like, it's the one I'm still thinking about. And that's, that's why they voted.

[B]

That's what you vote. That's what you are supposed to vote for.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

I don't think this is just my opinion. It's the best performance, not who's, who's the best person. Because listen, if we had to vote who the best person was, tons of people would not be having awards right now.

[A]

Radio City Music hall would have six people.

[B]

Yeah. You and I being six of us.

[A]

Well, you and I. Yeah, you and I both take up six seats.

[B]

Yeah, that's enough. I had a chicken parm for dinner.

[A]

With your waist and my ego.

[B]

We're taking up a lot of seats, pals. Put them on the balcony.

[A]

A lot of hot air.

[B]

That's a lot of hot air, kids. But no, my feeling is like, you vote for the art, you vote for that. Yeah. That's your job. But to sit there and then go, well, she said this and he did that and I know she fucked this per. Like, that has nothing to do with it.

[A]

You know who does vote that way a lot of times are the Oscars.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

There is a narrative that Eddie Murphy would have won the Oscar for Dreamgirls, but he spent 30 years pissing off everybody.

[B]

Yeah. Yeah.

[A]

And everyone was like, I'm not gonna vote for that, man.

[B]

It's the same when Jim Carrey was not nominated for the Truman Show.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Because people were like, I'm so fucking sick of this guy campaigning for an award. We're not going to give it to him.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

So, yeah, that stuff. I remember that.

[A]

Yeah. And again, people don't like to be told who to vote for.

[B]

Don't tell me.

[A]

And when you lean with like, well, this is the important choice. This is the one that's going to be. Hate it.

[B]

Don't tell me what's important. I tell you what's important.

[A]

Well, and so. And this is actually the double edged sword of that. Because the other thing and I talked about this on the podcast last week. I still predicted Omari at the time. And then on Saturday, I went, oh, shit, Purpose is winning.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And I said this on the podcast already, but it became more clear a few days later, which was the number of older white voters I spoke to who said purpose. Just some of the Nicole thing. Like, purpose really stuck with me. And, like, it just. It has so much to say, and it's just so important right now. And then they would go, and I just don't know what makes Omari important.

[B]

What makes Omari important in this time.

[A]

When there are drag bands.

[B]

Okay, I'll tell you what makes Omari important. You liked it.

[A]

Yeah, Laughed.

[B]

That's what made it.

[A]

But the Tony Awards have a stigma against comedies, especially with plays. They don't take it seriously. The only times comedies have wonders.

[B]

Do that too.

[A]

They really do. The only comedies that have won, like, straight up comedies that have won in the last 25 years. Three, four have been musicals.

[B]

Okay?

[A]

Three of whom were big tittied hits that were also critically acclaimed. One shouldn't have been. The fourth one wasn't a big titty hit, but it was critically acclaimed.

[B]

What are they?

[A]

Gentleman's Guide to Love and Murder. Straight up comedy.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

Which I do think is a solid show. And also when you look at that lineup, it was Gentleman's Guide versus Aladdin. Beautiful After Midnight. Believe it or not, Gentleman's Guide was the artsy choice.

[B]

Beautiful. Should have won.

[A]

If you say so. Book of Mormon was. That was the one before that. And Book of Mormon, again, critically acclaimed, straight up big titty.

[B]

Oh, Book of Mormon.

[A]

Yeah, the one. The next one was Spamalot. Shouldn't have won, but again, huge hit and got, like, a huge sign of approval from the New York Times.

[B]

Just remind everybody what was. What did it beat out? Would you remind them what beat out this?

[A]

It beat out Dirty Ron. Scoundrels, which was funnier. Genius Spelling Bee, which is perfect.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And Piazza, which is stunning. Once again, friends, Spamalot, the song with the Swedish face slapping fish.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Beat out Light in the Piazza. Dirty around Scoundrels and spells.

[B]

This girl got beat by a horse, not a fish. Look at what's going on at Lincoln Center.

[A]

Kelli o' Hara got kicked in the head by a horse and she still managed to grow up hot. That is bravery.

[B]

That is bravery.

[A]

That is a journey.

[B]

Damn it.

[A]

And then before that was Producers, which, again, like, critically acclaimed, huge, huge hit. The only play of the last 25 years that you could argue is A comedy. And one was God of Carnage. And that was because it was prestigious. Movie stars import from. From. From London. And I also say, like, I saw God of Carnage for that original cast. It was a fun, fun time. And they also then were like, but it also has something to say about society.

[B]

Sorry.

[A]

I know. But I was like, does it always have to have something to say? God of Carnage was a tight hundred minutes. I laughed. I enjoyed my time, really.

[B]

Were you watching something else?

[A]

Yeah, I was watching your sex tape.

[B]

Well, that was not a hundred minutes.

[A]

Sorry. I was watching her sex tapes.

[B]

Oh, I'm sorry.

[A]

Over the years, it was.

[B]

Oh, yes, this is. This one lasts 99 minutes. It takes me a while to get the pants off.

[A]

It was Rob Schneider and Jerry Herm in this series.

[B]

Feud. Brian Murphy.

[A]

Brian Murphy's Feud, Rob V. Jerry.

[B]

Rob Djerry. With Sarah Paulson as the Poppers.

[A]

Bang the tight drum slowly, honey.

[B]

It wasn't tight. Oh, man. God of Carnage, that was a play. I like art.

[A]

It was written.

[B]

I like art.

[A]

The play or the thing?

[B]

Art the play. Yasmina Reyes also.

[A]

Which is coming back, by the way.

[B]

Which I'm actually excited about because I remember seeing the original of that. Holy shit. With that cast. Oh, my God.

[A]

You were in grad school at the time.

[B]

I was. My grandson was. I took him for a graduation trip to see Alan Alda and Victor Garber.

[A]

And you said Alan Alda. Said Alan Alda, you whipperstaffer, You've got a career ahead of you.

[B]

I remember when I used to bounce you on my knee.

[A]

Remember?

[B]

God, what a good kid.

[A]

Anyway, so that's why.

[B]

That's why Gypsy and Justin Tyler shut out. Because Alan Aldo is a Whipperstorm snapper.

[A]

And on that note, let's take a quick break.

[B]

Avuncular. That's what I would call Alan Alda avuncular.

[A]

Billy, I beg to differ with you. How do you mean? You're the top. Yeah. You're an Arrow caller.

[B]

You're the top.

[A]

You're a Coolidge dollar. You're the nimble tread of the feet of Fred. And we're back. Next person on Substack writes. Was Oprah presenting Best Actress a sign that they thought Audra would win? Because it felt that way to me. Yes.

[B]

Yes. 210.

[A]

Didn't they have Chadwick Boseman's widow come out to present Best Actor and. Or something like that.

[B]

She was there or something. They kept. They kept mentioning. She was in the audience the whole evening.

[A]

Never. If you. If you want the most egg on your face. Set up your ceremony not knowing who the winners are, but thinking you know who the winners are, and then watch it backfire on you.

[B]

That. That was very clear, I think. Yes. Yes.

[A]

Although I will say so. At the maybe happy ending party, I was talking to a few different people, and then I cross referenced with some friends of mine today on Instagram who were also there because I was told that there were two awards where they all. This is their words. That it felt like the air was sucked out of the room. No. Oh, Nicole. Winning was not bad.

[B]

Oh, okay.

[A]

If you can believe it or not, it was Eureka Day winning a revival.

[B]

I can.

[A]

I. You.

[B]

You go ahead, because then I have a question for you.

[A]

The second one was purpose winning play.

[B]

As opposed to oh, Mary.

[A]

Oh, Mary. Or John Proctor is the villain.

[B]

Oh, yeah. Also that I thought was gonna another.

[A]

One where social media writes a narrative that's not true.

[B]

True.

[A]

And I had said on the podcast and John Proctor's the villain had a major surge in the last couple of weeks where I think people are taking a lot more seriously. It's also. It is a cultural hit. People are talking about it. People are excited for it. I really liked John Proctor a lot. I sold Tanya Taymor to her face that I'm signed up for everything she does now.

[B]

Oh.

[A]

After. After Jonah Outsiders, and now John Proctor. I'm like.

[B]

She's really.

[A]

I'm like, you're gonna the bed. I didn't say this like she's gonna the bed. At some point, I'm still gonna keep showing up. I don't care.

[B]

She's so good.

[A]

She's so good. Between her and Michael Arden, I mean, I have more faith. I have more faith. And then with Jasmine and Helen J. Shen in the acting field, the future is looking a little brighter today.

[B]

Oh, we're great. We're in good shape.

[A]

We're better. We're out of bed. We're on our feet. But this was to say they said purpose winning. The air was sucked out because everyone was like, clearly, oh, Mary or John Proctor. And then it was purpose, and everyone was like. And then Eureka Day. What they said was, it wasn't that people were mad. It was. People were like, oh. Because it felt like it was gonna be yellowface. And then when it was Eureka Day, everyone just kind of went, huh.

[B]

So I have a question for you, and I want. I wanted to ask you this. Eureka Day, it's was one best revival.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

Isn't it a play about COVID No.

[A]

Covid is the punchline at the end of the show.

[B]

How old is this play?

[A]

I think the play is six or seven years old.

[B]

How. How is this a revolution? A revival?

[A]

It's not. Eureka Day had a production in New York, I think, in 2018, maybe, and then petitioned to be considered a revival because of that. Under the classics rule, which they got away with. Which is another reason why I think people were a little miffed that they won, because they. They.

[B]

This is not a revival.

[A]

It's not. But also, neither is yellowface, but yellowface, at least has been around now for about 22 years.

[B]

You see, that, to me, feels more like a revival.

[A]

The classics rule was. Was implemented for shows that had been around for a good chunk of time, but just had never been on Broadway.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

That was what got Assassins nominated for revival, because Assassins had been around for 12 years.

[B]

It's been around. Yeah. Oh, my God. Okay.

[A]

Eureka Day has not been around for 12 years. So it's. It's a. It's a bullshit nomination. Them winning is not their fault. They could.

[B]

They have petitioned to be best play, and they chose not to.

[A]

They petitioned for revival.

[B]

They were like, we don't want to.

[A]

Be in the best Manhattan Theater. Manhattan Theater Club petitioned them for revival.

[B]

Maybe There's a lot of competition. Okay.

[A]

I think they were very smart. They were being very smart and strategic and listen, hate the player, not the game.

[B]

Oh, yeah.

[A]

And they. And they won. And it's not the fault of Ana D. Shapiro and her company that they put on a good production, but it's. It's a little bit of a win for a lot of people.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Nicole winning was not, apparently, one of those moments. Nicole winning, actually, from what I understand, was a genuine. People were very excited. She won. Internet was less excited. Kola Scola was a little less excited.

[B]

I saw. I actually would love to see a Tony's next year where it's Cole and Sam Pinkleton and they're just sitting there like the Muppets.

[A]

I would love that.

[B]

Like, we're just commenting on the whole show.

[A]

Yeah. Well, the other thing is, if you watch the full clip, Cole then kind of backtracks when Cole says, huh? The clip we're referring to is when Cole and Sam Pinkleton are in the press room and they find out that Nicole just won. And Cole goes, huh? Four more years.

[B]

Yeah, exactly. Got me so good.

[A]

And then everybody laughs. And then Cole goes, I don't even know what that means. And I'm like, Cole, you know what that means? I'm like, Cole, you know what you meant Cole.

[B]

You're funny.

[A]

You know what you meant. But, like, I don't think that Cole said that, being like, oh, she's maga. Cole said that. Because that's what people think now when they think of Nicole.

[B]

You know what I'm curious about with Cole? What's next, Cole and Nicole or Cole, Cole and Nicole? I would see that.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Like, what are they gonna do next.

[A]

Sideshow they're gonna do? I would say that, honestly, Nicole is Violet, because of course she is. And. And Cole, his Daisy.

[B]

Oh, you see, I'm doing Arsenic and Old Lace with Patty and Keisha Lewis. That's my next one that I'm doing. I hope you get to see Keisha's.

[A]

Arsenic and Patty's Old Lace.

[B]

Arsenic.

[A]

Arsenic.

[B]

You were saying? I'm sorry.

[A]

Well, yeah.

[B]

Eureka Day. That's my question about Eureka Day.

[A]

Next person writes the oh, Mary shocker of not winning best play, which we just discussed act one, meaning the pre show. The pre telecast was much better this year since one of the hosts wasn't completely unlikable. Who was one of the hosts for the pre show last year?

[B]

I don't know. Or did they mean, like, cynthia Erivo's unlikable?

[A]

No, I think they mean. I think they mean compared to the pre show last year.

[B]

Who hosted pre show last year?

[A]

That's a great.

[B]

Friends, we're gonna find out the answer to. To who hosted pre show last year?

[A]

Who hosted the pre show in 2024?

[B]

It was screaming it at us. Yeah, I didn't watch the television show.

[A]

Well, Ariana DeBose was the host overall.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Did she host the pre show, though?

[B]

No, I think. No.

[A]

Julianne Huff and Adkarsh. Who's this person? Oh, that dude.

[B]

Who.

[A]

From the Mindy Project and Pitch Perfect.

[B]

What?

[A]

This guy.

[B]

What? Who is he?

[A]

He was on the Mindy Project. No, no, he. Yeah, he was in the theater. No, it was a very random co host, and he didn't look like he wanted to be there. I think that's who they meant. If that's not who you meant, I'm so sorry, but that's what I took.

[B]

You know what my favorite part of last night was?

[A]

What?

[B]

Cynthia Eriva was like, broadway's always home to me.

[A]

And I was like, you've done one show?

[B]

I was like, how many shows has she done? And I looked at. She produced, like, fat ham, I think. And then she. Which is kind of.

[A]

I say Cynthia Erivo had a good team of gay men writing for her because.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

I don't know what, how felt for you when with us, we were watching it and on our bingo card, because you were playing Tony bingo, one of the tiles was Cynthia Erivo lands a joke and then she landed one in the first two minutes and then she continued to land a whole bunch of them.

[B]

That's great.

[A]

Yeah. We forget all the time she's so good at what she does because then she'll do an interview and we're like, oh. But then she'll perform and we're like, oh, you have the voice of a generation and you're a very gifted actress.

[B]

Oh, she's very. I mean this in the best way. Like, there's a slyness to her that I love when she hosts.

[A]

And there's also. She's, There's.

[B]

She's enjoying it.

[A]

She's. There's an ease to it.

[B]

Yes. She's relaxed.

[A]

She's. It's very. Tada. Still got it. Yeah.

[B]

I love it.

[A]

I love it. Yeah.

[B]

Fabulous.

[A]

In a weird way, she's kind of like a Streisand of our times.

[B]

Oh, yeah.

[A]

Yeah. And I'm sure. And I'm sure she's very meticulous about everything she does, but there's a slyness to it. What word would you use to describe last night? Mine would be safe from the performances picked up like death becomes where Operation mints meet and the way the voters voted, like purpose winning and maybe happy ending sweeping. I don't think maybe happy ending sweeping was safe. And then the only thing that didn't seem safe to them was leading actress Oprah being the one to make an indirect LuPone joke. Do you remember what the LuPone joke was? People were talking when, when she did.

[B]

It, it was something along the lines of she was coming out, she's going to announce best actress. And I know you've all got opinions on that. And I. And everyone started laughing. She goes, no, I've been reading. So I was very. It was very clear what she was referring to.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

I'm glad that she didn't say anything about it being a beautiful day. That was very. Was very.

[B]

What's.

[A]

I'm looking for classy of her.

[B]

Listen, those women have more class in their little fingers.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Then I don't even want to get into that.

[A]

No, that's the thing I will say. The one thing I will say about the Patti labonte thing and it actually should be indicative of the community at large, is, yes, it is a, in a lot of ways, collaborative. Yes. It's a lot of ways accepting but it is also quite mean, girls. Very Plastics, very Heathers in a lot of ways. You mean.

[B]

You mean the comments or what?

[A]

No, I mean.

[B]

No.

[A]

Broadway in general.

[B]

Oh, yeah, yeah.

[A]

Because for. No. And what I'm saying is, for decades, Patti LuPone was at the top of the food pyramid, food chain, whatever the is, it is. And when this happened, the way that people turned. It wasn't that people always loved her and then had a massive about face. It was a lot of people who haven't liked her for years and couldn't say anything getting their opportunity to finally say what they wanted to say. And as far as Patty's aware, she probably thought all those people, if not like, were her best friends. She was like, oh, we had a. We had a fine time. I was a perfect person around them. And then being like, no, that whole show, you were a monster. And I know people who've had lovely experiences with Patty, and I also know people who've had awful experiences with her.

[B]

I just don't understand, like, in this business, like, where it's so hard for everybody, why do you gotta say that stuff?

[A]

She doesn't. And she's never any. But any of the stuff she's ever said. And I know.

[B]

Oh, but she's so honest, you know, I don't think so.

[A]

Well, we're. Well, she is. I don't think she's lying about anything, but I think. But we're fetishizing it because it's. There's a. You can talk about the stuff you feel deeply in a way that's respectful, that there are other people in this world you're speaking on. And the problem is that she ultimately eventually came for Audrey, which became the straw, the Brooklyn's camel's back. I thought it was classless of her to openly say on Mike that Angela Weber was an alcoholic. That's not her business to share.

[B]

Listen, kindness is kindness. And my feeling is, is I don't think it's right to say, well, she called this person a bitch, but she's this. But you can't call that person a bitch. You don't call anybody a bitch. No, you just don't do it to anybody.

[A]

Unless you're like, hey, bitch, what you.

[B]

Do all the time?

[A]

To my own mother. Yeah, but like, leave that woman alone. If I did, she'd be very sad. If I greet my mother in the morning and I just say, good morning, mother, she'll go, what's up? What's wrong? What's happening? What is this?

[B]

She'll go, which One. Are you?

[A]

Exactly. She goes, what avatar is this?

[B]

Are you the morning shift? Water Wabu?

[A]

I have to walk in every morning and go, morning, slut. And then that's how she knows it's a proper morning.

[B]

I don't know why, but I picture your mom sleeping with Auntie Mame with, like, the silk sleep mask on, like, in the ruffled bed.

[A]

We both sleep like Idina Menzel in redwood, just, like, tangled up in the knots of trees.

[B]

I didn't say that, but sorry. Going back very quickly.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

Kindness. Kindness doesn't kill anybody. And I don't know. I don't. I don't like that you can listen. That's great that she has opinions about these people, and that's what she thinks. That's amazing. Why do you gotta tear people down?

[A]

She's also not always been right.

[B]

Well, that's a whole other story.

[A]

That's another story. Never mind. Anyway, I mean, I think I thought that everyone should have had their antennas up when she went in print multiple times to tear down Sherry Renee Scott for Women on the Verge. I'm like, I'm sorry. That's a bitch move. And I know we're not supposed to call people bitches, but that was a. That wasn't her being a bitch. That was a bitch move.

[B]

It's being an a. It's being an asshole for no reason.

[A]

He's an asshole.

[B]

Except. What's that from?

[A]

Isn't that from Back to the Future? Oh, that's right. He's an asshole.

[B]

That's right. I like that. That's good.

[A]

Thank you.

[B]

Good old Back to the Future. What if that's a musical?

[A]

It was a musical. Yeah. It got. It got someone mad at me for writing because I wrote a bad review for it on Instagram.

[B]

And someone's angry at you because of a bad review? Yeah. See, I couldn't. I don't know about listeners. Hello. I don't know if you could do this. I can't do this. Like, you and I have different tastes sometimes.

[A]

Yeah. We disagree, like, 20% of the time.

[B]

Yeah. But I would never once go, oh, I hate Matt, because he likes this, and I don't like that. Like, I can't. I can't understand that this was.

[A]

That I had the audacity to write it and put it out on Instagram because they felt that theater was. Broadway was still in a sensitive spot, and we needed to support everything to get audiences back. And I said, you want to know what doesn't need support on Instagram? Back to the future. Three months into its Broadway run. But that's a story for another day.

[B]

That's the point of art. The point of art is for somebody to look at it and then give their thoughts and feelings and opinions on it. Yeah, but to yell at. Yeah. I could never look at you and be like, our friendship's over because you liked Eureka Day and I did it. You know what I mean?

[A]

Also, tell me how back to the future success helps theater. How does that help future artists? How?

[B]

I don't know. I haven't gone back to the future yet to tell you.

[A]

Yeah, it's like a lavender marriage. I'm like, who does that actually help in present day?

[B]

I can't say who I was going to say. There's a couple of people.

[A]

I'm thinking of Diana Van Furstenberg and her man.

[B]

The 90 year old guy, right? Is like.

[A]

He's like, I'm a humber.

[B]

Shackshaw.

[A]

But I still have shacks with my wife.

[B]

Of course you do.

[A]

Well, her name's Diane Van Fistenberg.

[B]

Is it Diane Van Fistanberg? So he said, yeah, she's the grand marshal at the Eagle. Diane Van Fisten Fistenberg.

[A]

Anyway. And you know who she's voting for?

[B]

Oh, no.

[A]

She's voting for Meghan.

[B]

Get the fuck out. You just. No, stop, Stop. Okay. So, yes. So, yes. That was a joke Oprah made.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

About that Best Actress.

[A]

People were talking at my party, so we didn't hear it. I'll be that person. I'm upset they didn't parody the Sunset Walk. I thought that. I thought Cynthia's opening before the actual song. That felt a bit like it was parodying the beginning of Sunset.

[B]

Oh, yeah.

[A]

When he's walking through all the packs of.

[B]

Yeah, I get that.

[A]

That's what I got. Especially. It even started with her looking at.

[B]

Yeah, there was no outside, but that's okay. Yeah.

[A]

My favorite part of the whole night was the camera person accidentally giving Jennifer Simard the the spotlight when Nicole won. Sure. I don't remember that.

[B]

I don't remember that.

[A]

I didn't think the ceremony was safe. I thought the ceremony was actually kind of. I wouldn't say classy, but like, I thought it was very tasteful.

[B]

Yes, it was very. It was very well done. It was very. It was very polished. Like, like I said nothing to me except Audra's number felt like that. Visceral charge.

[A]

We'll get to that.

[B]

But that was just me.

[A]

I would also love a discussion as to why maybe happy ending still swept the major awards they were nominated for despite it being such a strong season, made complete sense to me. But seeing a lot of disappointment from people who thought something else would get score or book right.

[B]

Like what?

[A]

Well, here's the thing. Once again, people going online and they want to make things a whole tizzy. I'm gonna say this was a pretty solid season.

[B]

Oh, God, yes.

[A]

But I. When it comes to this, this year for musicals, it was an improvement for me from last year. Major improvement. Yeah, I don't think it was. I don't think all five nominees were, across the board, stellar. Like, where anyone could win book. Like I have.

[B]

Correct. That is correct.

[A]

I've been very open on this pod that I. That Operation Minceme doesn't work for me.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

I would not give them best book. I enjoyed Buena Vista Social Club, but I have said that script is held together by scotch tape, which leaves Dead Outlaw, Death Becomes her, and maybe Happy Ending. Dead Outlaw, I think, is a smart show that ultimately has too much weirdness and slow passages, I think, for it to win. And Death Becomes Her, I actually think does a really good job with material that I don't. With the IP that I don't love.

[B]

Correct.

[A]

But ultimately, I also think that, like, Death Becomes her, it's not. While my tune has improved on it, I still don't think it's quite tight enough. I don't think it goes quite far enough. It does. It does it far better than a lot of other shows have. And I'm going to give them those flowers. But it also doesn't quite get there to be, like, undeniable for a best musical, best book. Whereas maybe Happy Ending ultimately was just the best of the lot.

[B]

It was, I think, honestly, just down.

[A]

The ballad is the libretto. A libretto that we watch the show and go, oh, my God. The cleverness, the crazy twist. No, but everything supports each other in the way that a good musical is supposed to.

[B]

It's really well structured. It's really well structured, I think, with really charming.

[A]

And the. And the songs come in when they're supposed to. Everything just blends together again in a way that a musical is supposed to.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

And I think the score is beautiful. People are like, oh, well, you. You know, they all sound the same. I'm like, what are you talking about?

[B]

Who said they sound the same?

[A]

People online.

[B]

What? Like the book, the dialogue.

[A]

People want a mean girl score where every song has a new personality. And I'm like, okay, maybe you love whiplash, but I don't love sex. That rocks me up against the bedroom wall. I need to sometimes stay on the ground for a second.

[B]

Is that from Mean Girls or are you just telling me that in general?

[A]

I'm just talking in general.

[B]

Okay, folks, Matt made really, like, hard eye contact with that, and now I'm uncomfortable. Is there an HR person?

[A]

There's nothing hard. There's nothing hard about me.

[B]

Except my arteries.

[A]

Except my arteries.

[B]

Except my arteries.

[A]

My cold, cold heart.

[B]

But no, I agree with you. And also friends, maybe happy ending. It's totally original. Yeah, it's totally original, and I think it's marvelous. And voters, I will say, you flash that little original carrot in front of them, and they really like that.

[A]

Yeah. I would say voters do fetishize original.

[B]

They do. But Mincemeat Outlaw, as original as they are. True stories. They're both based on true stories. Maybe happy ending when, you know, Buena Vista's a documentary. And maybe death becomes There's a movie.

[A]

But also, that aside, you look at just the craft of it, and I'm sorry, I just think it's undeniable. I called pretty early on that I was gonna get musical book score, director and actor.

[B]

And you did beautifully. Yeah.

[A]

And scenic design. I think I said maybe. Sound tube. I might have.

[B]

Why didn't she get a nomination?

[A]

The Moment Death Becomes her was a lock for Best musical. I knew Helen J. Shen was not getting in because. Because Jennifer and Megan were both gonna get in, and that knocked Helen out. Really? Yeah. I think Helen's performance is so intimate, and she does. She gets one, like, big powerhouse number, which is like, the. What I Learned from Humans or whatever. But overall, like, because the show is so delicate, there's always a vulnerable nomination somewhere. And I think hers was the most.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And I would listen to a lot of people say, like, well, now Darren's not gonna win because people are gonna be so mad about Helen. I'm like, actually, no, this actually kind of improves it because he becomes the focus now.

[B]

He becomes the fact. Yeah.

[A]

And he. And everywhere he went, there she was. And it very much became like, if you're mad that Helen's not nominated, vote for Darren.

[B]

Yep.

[A]

Because this is a vote for the both of them.

[B]

Correct.

[A]

And her performance is gorgeous. And I told her so. And she's 25, 24, have a big career. She's above her. Making her Broadway debut. Above the title. And the best musical winner, like, Girl is on a good.

[B]

She's great. Doesn't. Yeah.

[A]

No, she's very. She's very special.

[B]

That's the other thing at the end of the day. What are the awards really mean?

[A]

Yeah. But also, like, when people say, oh, it's boring that it swept, I'm like, is it boring that it swept?

[B]

How is that boring that it swept?

[A]

Was it boring that A Chorus line swept in 76? Is it boring that, you know, I don't know. Fun Home got the quintuple crown in 2015.

[B]

People want more things to complain about.

[A]

Well, and I think people want drama. And we got a couple of, like, weird, interesting wins. But I think with maybe Happy Dining, it's just like, I don't want a dramatic win if it's not the right winner. And I'm sorry, but, like, I do think maybe Happy Ending is the best musical of the season. And if it's the best musical of the season, why wouldn't you then vote for the material as well?

[B]

Correct. It doesn't admit it's not just a title you're voting for.

[A]

It's not that Michael did not spin Magic out of Dog shit. He took what was already good and made it better, which is why he should still win. In addition to his beautiful. In addition to his beautiful imagery and stuff and the details of the acting, work with.

[B]

Beautiful.

[A]

Beautiful, but, like, the material strong.

[B]

Yeah, it's good material.

[A]

Yeah. I'm like, why? Like, people were trying to tell me that something Rotten was going to upset Best Book at the Tonys instead of Fun Home. I'm like, what? I'm like, Fun Home doesn't have an ounce of fat on it. And it is weird and smart and dark and moving and beautiful. That is a fucking tightrope to walk. And you're going to reward that. And people do, and they did.

[B]

Good for you.

[A]

I love. I love telling people to stop it. There was somebody at. There was somebody at our viewing party who made a very bold prediction right before the envelope was open for a category. I wish I could tell you which one it was, but it was such a. Like a. They said, oh, this thing could upset. And something that was just so clear to me wasn't okay. And I remember turning to this person and I said, did you just take a whiff of poppers? The person knows who they are. I don't remember what category it was, but, like, it wasn't this, but let's say it was score. And they were like, oh, real women could really upset here. And I went, did you just take a whiff of poppers? Again, that wasn't the category, but it was something like that.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Okay, moving on. The order of awards was Wild thoughts on Yellowface losing. Even though Francis Jew won. When Francis Drew won, which I was thrilled by.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

I was convinced Yellowface was winning. Oh, really?

[B]

You thought that was going to be the. Okay.

[A]

I didn't realize that was a spreading of the love Francis Drew. Ultimately, what we have here is a purely victorious repeat where the PBS broadcast.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

Benefited its supporting player who stole the show.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

But the show itself did not win revival.

[B]

Yes, you're right. You're absolutely right. Yeah. My gut was. I mean, once again, I don't agree that Eureka Day should be revival, but I was like, I think it is going to be Eureka Day.

[A]

Yeah, well. And people kept talking about its relevance because of the vaccine stuff.

[B]

That. That was the thing. And I was like, well, if it's. If it's relevant because of vaccines, how is it a revival? Because we're still dealing with the disease they're talking about in the show.

[A]

Well, they're not talking about COVID They're talking about, like, mumps or something.

[B]

I'm sorry.

[A]

It's a mumps outbreak.

[B]

Also, where was the love for left on 10th, your favorite play of the season? So it was called left on 10th.

[A]

And the love for it was Left. That's where. That's where it was.

[B]

Matt Koplik said his life was changed after seeing left on 10th.

[A]

Yep. I wanted to take it away after that by.

[B]

With Juliana Margulies and Peter Gallagher's eyebrows.

[A]

Yeah. And honestly, Peter Gallagher could still get it.

[B]

Oh, a hundred and twenty percent.

[A]

I thought you were about to say one hundred twenty years old.

[B]

I don't care how old he is.

[A]

No, he's. If I look half as good as Peter Gallagher when I'm half his age, which will be in two days, I will be. I will be thrilled.

[B]

He's still sexy.

[A]

He's. Of course he's still sexy.

[B]

Gorgeous.

[A]

He's.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Good.

[B]

Good.

[A]

Good for him. Oh. Are Daddy Schneider and Daddy Sondheim related, or do they just share similar formal titles? You and Stephen Sondheim? We both call you Daddy.

[B]

What do you. What do you mean, you call me Daddy?

[A]

I just called you Daddy of the pod. Rob Schneider.

[B]

Oh, my. Is that how you always refer to me?

[A]

Sometimes.

[B]

Oh, that's really sweet.

[A]

It's been a more recent occurrence, but it just kind of came out of my mouth.

[B]

God, it used to be so hot when I wasn't Daddy age. And now that I'm Daddy age, it makes me really sad.

[A]

Lean into it.

[B]

Really?

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

I can't lean with my hip.

[A]

That's what makes you Daddy?

[B]

What did he say? Is Daddy Sondheim and Daddy Schneider related?

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Oh, God, no. We shared a basement once.

[A]

You were at the same party?

[B]

We shared. We were at a couple of parties together. We shared Jerry Herman. You can see it on feet.

[A]

You broke a couple of arms together. God, was this year the first Grinder reference at a Tony's? Looking for grand historic first. I mean, every. Every, Every time Moulin Rouge won a Tony in that ghastly Kovic year, that was a Grinder reference as far as I'm concerned.

[B]

I forgot about that year. That was something.

[A]

Yeah. That was the year that Aaron Tveit won in an all white suit.

[B]

I also love it when the person announce, please welcome Tony Award winner Aaron Tveit. Was the announcement like he won a Tony Award?

[A]

Aaron Tveit.

[B]

Aaron Tveit.

[A]

Aaron Tveit has a Tony.

[B]

I like him.

[A]

And Paul Alexander Nolan doesn't have a nomination.

[B]

Well, I think he's so good.

[A]

Yeah, no, that's a fact.

[B]

I think Paul Alexander Nolan, that's not something.

[A]

That's not something that you think. That's just something that is. Paula, Alexander Nolan is so good.

[B]

He never got a nomination.

[A]

No, he's had the misfortune of being a couple of duds. But he's. I mean, he's always the best or second best thing in everything.

[B]

Oh, he's so good.

[A]

The only time he was the second best thing was Bright Star, and that's because Carmen Cusack was on stage.

[B]

Oh, my God, I love Bright Star. That was the same year as Hamilton, right?

[A]

It was. Oh, yeah. No, that was the first time I realized that you and I were gonna have words someday.

[B]

Why?

[A]

Because I was at your home with another friend of ours, Brian, and Brightstar came up and you're like, oh, I love Brightstar. And then I think Brian just, like, went on this tirade about how the lyrics of Brightstar are actually really good. And I did let him speak and he finished and I thought, okay, Mr. Smith, you can get out of Washington now.

[B]

Oh, wow.

[A]

Mr. Deeds, you are not allowed in town. Really? Mrs. Miniver, this is not your.

[B]

You don't like the show?

[A]

No, I don't. I love the music.

[B]

The music, the composition, the compositions I think are great.

[A]

I thought Carmen was stunning. I thought the transition from. Of her from 45 to 18 was gorgeous. I thought Paul was lovely and they had wonderful chemistry and everyone else showed up.

[B]

Wow. Okay.

[A]

And I don't. I'm not mad about saying that.

[B]

You don't have to be mad about.

[A]

Saying it, especially in a year where we had Shuffle along, which brought all the piss. I'm like, you don't get to tell me that Bright Star with its all white cast, which I'm not that person usually, but I'm like, I remember that that was a big thing. That their casting notice was like, whites only.

[B]

Is that what it's. Oh, get out.

[A]

Well, it's like the breakdown for every role was like, Caucasian. Caucasian. Caucasian. And their argument was like, well, this is like 1950s Alabama.

[B]

Oh, my God. Friends, as soon as they start bursting into song, we're not in a reality.

[A]

As soon as Michael Mulheron. Is that who it was?

[B]

A man's gotta do. Man's gotta do.

[A]

As soon as he threw that doctor's.

[B]

Bag out in the air, up in.

[A]

The air, and it flew in slow mo. And I thought to myself, self, that baby's gonna live.

[B]

Self, I thought to myself, self, that baby's gonna.

[A]

That baby's gonna live.

[B]

Friends, I need a T shirt that says friends. I thought to myself, self, that baby's gonna live.

[A]

Yeah. Not. Not. Not since Vera Drake. That's a deep cut.

[B]

That's. Wow. Michael Mulhern was up for Vera Drake.

[A]

Wait, Michael Heron didn't play Vera Drake?

[B]

No, I don't think so. I could be wrong. Oh, my God. Wow.

[A]

I didn't know that was Imelda Staunton. But. But fun fact, that wasn't Demetha Staunton in Gypsy. That was Michael Muller.

[B]

Wasn't he great? Kids?

[A]

I love it when Gollum is Madame Rose.

[B]

How dare you?

[A]

Why isn't best book a part of the main awards broadcast? Because none of the craft categories get to be on the main teleconference. Because who cares about the one time? The one time it was. Was when they thought Tina Fey was gonna win for Mean Girls, and then she didn't.

[B]

Oh, that's right. Yep, that's right.

[A]

Again.

[B]

Stop doing on the face.

[A]

Egg on the face. Question for both of you. Favorite awkward or unplanned moment of the evening? This person's favorite was Andrew Lloyd Webber thanking Jamie Lloyd for their quote, interesting interpretation of my piece. It felt like a cat marking its territory by pissing on everything. That is pretty fucking great. My favorite moment is if you watch the Dead Outlaw performance early on when they have the cast member in the aisle doing, like, the. It's a man.

[B]

Oh, yeah, that was my favorite.

[A]

And he's running away. You can see Jeremy Jordan in the aisle. Just go, oh.

[B]

That was a choice to have that poor actor in the aisle.

[A]

Well, and I will say in the show, I remember it was so effective. I understood why they did the isle thing. They wanted to like. I get it. It was totally. It's fine. I don't think they needed to do it. They should have kept it on stage, but whatever. But like, the problem is when you have that actor who's doing it exactly as he does it in the theater, and it's effective, but like, the rest of the audience doesn't. Hasn't seen the show, they don't know.

[B]

What the hell's happening.

[A]

So you have cameras on not only the actor, but the audience. So you see Jeremy Jordan as this guy says it and like, runs off going, it's a man. Jeremy Jordan just going, oh.

[B]

Oh, wow.

[A]

Like, he's. It wasn't like a. It wasn't a yikes face. It was like a, oh. He was like, oh, we're doing it.

[B]

Jeremy Jordan was every straight dad you bring to the theater. He's like, oh, when's it gonna happen?

[A]

There's a story here.

[B]

There's a story here.

[A]

Okay, I'm gonna do two more, and then the next one we're gonna talk about is rankings of performances, which will be after this break.

[B]

Amazing.

[A]

Okay, thoughts on the shows. On the shows, who did and didn't get a performance lot, and if there was any reason beyond not being able to pay. There is a QAnon theory about why just in time and Real Women have Curves performed and no other non nominated shows.

[B]

I wanted to ask you about this.

[A]

Did you. Have you heard this theory?

[B]

No. I want to ask you the question, like, what allows them to perform? What doesn't allow them.

[A]

The theory is, and I have no way to confirm this, so I'm not telling anyone this actually happened, but it's an interesting one.

[B]

It's a theory.

[A]

It's a theory. I've got a theory. It could be bunnies. That's Buffy once more with feeling. Bunnies aren't just cute like everybody supposes. Okay, enough. They also got the mustard out, but. So that's another Buffy line. So the theory is that because this was the 10th anniversary of Hamilton and they really wanted a performance of a reunion, number one of the things that Lynn wanted, or I guess what that they did to sweeten the deal was let Real Women have Curves perform because Lynn is supposedly an angel investor in the show and is one of the reasons why it's been able to run for the last two months, losing money every week, which is a noble thing for him to do and that they included Just In Time to extra sweeten the deal for Groff.

[B]

What?

[A]

Really?

[B]

I don't.

[A]

Listen. I don't think that Groff would have refused to perform if Just In Time wasn't allowed to. It seems to me if this theory is true, that Real Women of Curze was the first brick and that Just In Time was the second, I have no confirmation. I don't have receipts.

[B]

That's what you're thinking.

[A]

That's not what I'm thinking.

[B]

You're just. You're repeating what the theory is.

[A]

I don't think about Hamilton anymore. There was one part of the Hamilton performance where my mom and I texted each other because. And we'll talk about this after the break. Like, the overall, I thought the Hamilton performance was very good. There was one moment, and I won't say which one it was, where we both texted each other and we went, wow, it really has been 10 years, hasn't it?

[B]

Somebody not look good for you?

[A]

Somebody. There was a moment of it where it wasn't maybe as tight as it had been 10 years ago.

[B]

Oh, the gifts.

[A]

The gift or gifts were still there.

[B]

We get a little bit, but it.

[A]

Had been 10 years.

[B]

Takes a while.

[A]

Speaking of she who people don't want to name anymore, it's why I hated the narrative. Anytime Patty would sing Evita in concerts, and people would be like, oh, my God, she sounds exactly the same. I'm like, she doesn't.

[B]

She is.

[A]

She's 70, and she sounds incredible for 70. But what she's doing with Rainbow High is not what she did when she was 30 years old, coked out of her mind, and scared for her life.

[B]

No. We do a lot of things differently when we're 30 years old, coked out of our mind, and scared of our lives singing Rainbow High on a Broadway stage.

[A]

But enough about your first marriage, Rob.

[B]

That's true. It was a good marriage. Lots of Rainbow High. That was funny.

[A]

I was.

[B]

Put that in your little play.

[A]

That'll be for the next play.

[B]

Put that in your little play. Wait, what was the original question, though?

[A]

The question.

[B]

Oh, this is what I wanted to ask you. I'm sorry.

[A]

Yeah. Reason why people perform the white competition.

[B]

So let me ask you a question. So let's say I'm. I'm. Death becomes her, right? And I'm nominated. Do I have to pay to be on the show?

[A]

Yes.

[B]

So if I got a nomination, I could be like, well, I don't want to pay for it, so don't play. Don't play a clip for my show. Don't do.

[A]

I think, I think you can play a clip. But like that's why.

[B]

But I'm paying for that. This.

[A]

Well, that's why. For example, I think Big river did like a minute filmed montage because they didn't have. They didn't want to pay to perform because the show had been closed and they weren't going to win.

[B]

So. Stupid question. So let's say you're something like real women have curves where you're not nominated for best Musical. Not only do you. You still have to pay to get on, obviously. But then like, so here's a stupid question. Could the people of Boop have been like, we're paying to put Jasmine Amy Rogers on.

[A]

This is as. This is what I was.

[B]

I really don't know the answer.

[A]

No, this is what I was meant to believe happen. If you are nominated, it guarantees you a slot. You then have to pay to perform because you have to pay your actors. You have to pay for transportation.

[B]

Yeah, of course, of course.

[A]

It's also, it's airtime. Like I get it. So you do have to, you, you do have to pay to perform, no matter who you are. It's just that if you're nominated, you're guaranteed an invitation to perform. After that it's okay. What do we have time for? And it used to be that only if you were nominated could you perform. I think Jesus Christ Superstar was the first non nominated. Or maybe it was Golden Rainbow, first non nominated piece to perform even though it wasn't up for best Musical. And after that, it was very, very infrequent.

[B]

Golden Rainbow's fabulous, by the way, if anyone's ever listened to it.

[A]

It's a thing. No, some good music. Good music.

[B]

I love Golden Rainbow.

[A]

Some good music. But then I want to say post, like 2010, maybe 2011, they started incorporating other shows that were nominated if they were willing to pay. That's how we got. That's how we got J Hud singing Finding Neverland. A year before Finding Neverland came to Broadway. That's how we got Lisa Howard doing that song from it should have been you. Yeah, that's how we got Matt Morrison coming back again, back, back, back again to threaten us with Finding Neverland. And then I, from what I understand, they eventually cracked down on that and were like, we don't have enough airtime. We're pushing more awards off camera. Like we're gonna keep it to the nominees. And then this year they were like, which Then just opens the floodgates. And then people are like, well, why not?

[B]

Boop.

[A]

Why not?

[B]

Boop.

[A]

Why not smoosh?

[B]

Why not?

[A]

Yeah. Why? Why not last five years?

[B]

Because they don't want. Is it basically because, well, the producers just don't want to pay for it.

[A]

What I was told was that they. The only shows that were invited that were not nominated were just in time and real women have curves. Boop offered. They were told no.

[B]

Boop said, we will pay. We will do this.

[A]

Boop was like, we want to go on. We want to show off Jasmine. We got the 300K.

[B]

And they said, no, we're not.

[A]

The Tony said, absolutely not. They said, oprah is presenting best actress to Audra and Audra alone. And we've already planned it out. And they said. And then Boop said, oh, what's this in my hand? Oh, it's egg. Would you like it on your face?

[B]

Black and white or yellow?

[A]

And that's on period. In fact, Rob, if you look behind you, do you see who's on the.

[B]

I was wondering. There's a little dog behind me. Is it the Boop dog?

[A]

It's the Boop dog. It's Purgy.

[B]

Is that his name?

[A]

His name is Purgy.

[B]

Hey, Pudgy.

[A]

Yeah, that's. That's the thing about the Tonys and the. And the paying thing was with the boob stuff. Was. Was they. From what I understand, they were. They offered and Tony said, no, thank you. They said, good night and thank you, Migaldi.

[B]

Wow.

[A]

And then another one was. While most were expected, were there any surprises winner wise? Nothing was out of left field. There were a couple of things that I had predicted on the pod that I already said that I regretted. The next day. I regretted saying Jasmine. I, I. And I. I would have loved it if Jasmine had won.

[B]

Oh, yeah.

[A]

I woke up the next day after we released that episode. I was like, I'm wrong.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

And then two days later, I was like, oh, it is Nicole. I don't regret saying oh, Mary on mic. It was just like three days later, it became very clear to me that I was wrong. I am disappointed that Stranger Things did as well as it did tech wise. I would have loved it if Tony voters didn't always go for most and went for best. Hills of California should have a Tony for best set design, not Stranger Things. I also think that picture of Dorian Gray should have won for sound design, but incredible. Stranger Things was very loud.

[B]

Yeah, I think Patty's already complaining about it.

[A]

Yeah. I know that on the sub stack. And I'm sure on Discord, people were interested in the beginning when Buena Vista social club was winning a bunch of stuff, and they're like, oh, is Buena Vista Social Club about to be a best musical winner? And I said, I think we're just seeing all the awards that it was bound to win all at once.

[B]

Yes, Correct.

[A]

That's exactly what happened.

[B]

Correct. Yeah.

[A]

Because they won sound, they won orchestrations, and they won choreography, all within an hour.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And I think at that point, maybe happy ending had one score book and set.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And so. So everyone. Well, but, you know, like, I was like, oh, my God, three for three. Three and three. And I was like, guys, I think we just now have to wait for, you know, director, actor, and.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

Yeah. Nothing really surprised me. I was. I was pleasantly surprised to be right about Francis Chu. I was a little disappointed that eureka day beat yellowface, but I liked both.

[B]

Yeah. Oh, yeah.

[A]

Listen, it was more of a political thing for the eureka Day thing. Like, the whole revival. Ish thing.

[B]

I mean, I will say this has been, like, a year for me. Like, and it was probably one of the first years where I was like, oh, I kind of want A to win, but if B wins, I'll be happy.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And that happened. Which is not. Which does not happen every year. My God.

[A]

There were a couple of categories where I was like, a, B, or C could win.

[B]

Absolutely. And I would have been like, oh, I feel good about that.

[A]

There was not a single nominee and featured actress in a play that I would have been mad about. Not a single one.

[B]

Oh, no. They were fabulous. Fabulous.

[A]

That might be my favorite group of nominees of the year.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Yeah. And there are women who were not in there who I would have. Who I would have killed to have in there. So I was like. Like Hecht Young, who. I didn't. I didn't see Kara in purpose. And my big complaint was like, I love Kara Young, and I'm sure she brought her Kara Young to that role. But when I saw purpose, I was like, I'm thinking about Alana Arenas. And I was thrilled that Kara mentioned her in her Tony speech. I'm like, yes, Alana Arenas brought it to the stage. But then Finestrasa and then Tala Ash and Marjean Deshette, I was like, this is a phenomenal category. They're all great.

[B]

It's a good year. Listen, a lot of good stuff this year.

[A]

I'm trying to think of, like, the only category where literally my last place winner won was Purpose.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

My Category, best play for me, as I would personally rank it, would be Hills of California. Oh, Mary English. John Proctor's the villain. And then purpose. And listen, purpose for me is like an 8 out of 10.

[B]

These are all still great plays.

[A]

Like, like, purpose would be, like, number three for me in another season. My biggest issues with purpose is I think it's 25 minutes too long. They need to cut a lot of that narration. But overall, like, I did still really like it.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

John Proctor is the villain was my biggest surprise of the year. And I would probably make it a 9 out of 10. English for me was like a 9.9 out of 10. Oh, Mary, 9.9 out of 10. And then Hills, California 9.9 out of 10.

[B]

Wow. It was great.

[A]

It was just, like, great preference. Yeah, it was a best play. Was a phenomenal lineup. That was the winner's wise. We will do our personal rankings of all the performances after this break. And we're back. We're being asked about their rankings of the performances.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

Okay. So I have my rankings.

[B]

Oh, he has a list. He pulled up a list.

[A]

You think I'm gonna go off of my old, old, old memory?

[B]

Wait, I'm gonna. You're not old. Let me. Wait, can I look over your list?

[A]

To be clear, when I do this rankings, as I said, I don't think any of these performances were bad, but I also don't think any of them were great. So it's for me, as I. I think. I don't know if I said it on Mike, but I definitely said it to Rob earlier today. For me, the performances were mid. Mid minus and mid plus.

[B]

Yes. And so you said that about seven hours ago when we were on mic.

[A]

Fantastic.

[B]

We're still going.

[A]

We're still going strong.

[B]

Millennium approaches.

[A]

Okay, so at the bottom of my list, unfortunately for me, is real women have curves, which, again, it's a.

[B]

That's the bottom of your list.

[A]

At the bottom of my list, and I'll tell you why.

[B]

And we're just talking friends about the performances, not the shows, just what you saw in that broadcast.

[A]

Let me also. Let me say this as we continue down this road, as your friend wrote about saying, like, oh, they all botched it. They, they, they. What was he said? Like, they did a bad job. They shot the bed.

[B]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[A]

They messed. They missed their shot or whatever it was. I think it's actually becoming harder and harder to deliver a good Tony performance because what it is is the time constraints now make it really hard. The longest performance from A show this Year of the Night was, I believe, Dead outlaw at like 4 minutes and 5 seconds.

[B]

Yeah, it was long. Yeah.

[A]

And people are like, well, it's no Dream Girls. Like, Dream Girls was an almost nine minute performance.

[B]

Dream Girls was a whole fucking first act.

[A]

Coco was the whole first act.

[B]

Can we talk? Well, okay, go ahead. Cuz I have questions about the 20 minute.

[A]

Coco, I do have a question for you. What can it be rad. What song is that? Because I don't know what song that is.

[B]

Oh, Mademoiselle. Isn't it called Mademoiselle?

[A]

I don't know. I don't know.

[B]

Coco, you ever see the drag queen who does it?

[A]

You mentioned this on Broadway Bound and I don't know the drag queen, but I need to find it out.

[B]

Can I tell the story?

[A]

No, no, we got.

[B]

No, he's got something.

[A]

So with shorter time constraints, you have to. It now becomes harder to sell because everybody's just trying to sell. Right. And you have to think, okay, what am I gonna do? Am I gonna do a slice of pie from the show? Am I gonna try to throw the whole, like, vibe of the show in a four minute medley? And it's really hard to do. I would argue the best performances tend to be a little slice of something. Like Fun Home, I think is an amazing Tony performance. And it's literally just that, the simplicity of that. I think Hadestown did a really good job of building a story in four and a half minutes. Yeah, but like, the shorter and shorter it gets, like, it's hard. How do you sell Floyd Collins in three minutes? You really don't.

[B]

You can't.

[A]

Yeah, you can't. And so with Real Love and have Curves, they took a section of the show that actually is like probably six minutes in the real show and had to do it in 2 minutes and 40. So it had no build. And the story didn't really land. It was just very. And so I don't begrudge the performers who did their best. And like, that's actually a number I like a lot. Juggling, juggling, juggling, juggling. But it lands a lot better in the show because it has time to breathe. And I wish that they had done a different slice than that. Rather than try to throw everything in the kitchen sink on stage, just go for the slice. Sometimes throwing the kitchen sink on stage works if it's a chaotic show like Spring Awakening.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

But other shows don't get away with that. Actually, you know what? I'd argue a year where all four performances were good. Was 05 the Spanish.

[B]

Oh, genius. Genius.

[A]

I think that Piazzas goes down in the history books. I think Spelling bees. We're on vacation.

[B]

What did Spelling Bee do?

[A]

They did a little bit of a medley. No, they did the title song at the 25th annual. And then they went into a speller. A spelling section.

[B]

That's right. That's right.

[A]

They did Marcy Park Barfay and then Al Sharpton was the third one.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And then they ended with a goodbye song.

[B]

Yeah, okay. That was right.

[A]

It was really good. Dirty Round Scoundrels did great. Big stuff.

[B]

Great.

[A]

And then Spama did Find your Grail.

[B]

Yeah, great.

[A]

Yeah, it was.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

But so that's like, why again, when I'm doing this ranking, nothing's terrible, but it's harder and harder to really do a great performance these days.

[B]

I'll also throw in 1982, which.

[A]

That's the Dream Girls year. Dream Girls, Dream Girls. Nine nine Joseph and Pump Boys.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

Yeah. Talk about chaotic. The Joseph performance is every song from the show. I'm pretty sure in order. I know it's 10 seconds a song.

[B]

It's so good.

[A]

I just love the. The beginning into the Pharaoh song. The Pharaoh, he was a powerful man. And you can hear Laurie Beachman in the back of the theater above everyone else.

[B]

Yeah, it's so good. So good.

[A]

Oh, Lori Beachman, we miss you every day, girl. So that's at the bottom for me, unfortunately.

[B]

I'm sorry.

[A]

Next up for me is Operation Mincemeat.

[B]

Thank God I had my closed captions on.

[A]

Yeah, Well, a lot of people were like, I don't know why they did that number. They should have done Making a Man. They did Born to Lead on the Oliviers. Like, that's why they did it. They're like, we know this. Yeah. And it's introductory number. I don't think Born to Lead is a bad song to do in theory, but when I saw the show, I was like, oh, if we were in. I mean, the golden is a larger theater than the Fortune, which is the West End show. I'm like, the moment we're in a theater that's 10 seats bigger, this number doesn't land anymore because, like, there's not a lot of inventive staging. It doesn't build in any kind of way. Like, you need to be properly on stage with them to feel it.

[B]

You saw this show in London, right? I did. And you. But you didn't.

[A]

I hated it in London and in America. Hated it less, but didn't love It.

[B]

Why do you think that is?

[A]

Didn't have jet lag. That helped. I saw the original company in America this time, which also helped. I only had a couple of them in London. And I do think that the chemistry of that cast, who also just knows that show inside and out, helped a lot. And I was able to recognize the craft of some of the show, I don't think. I used to think Operation Mincing was bad, and I hated it.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

I no longer think it's bad bad. I just don't like it.

[B]

I think I remember you telling me this, because I remember it got big buzz over there.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And you were like, it's not.

[A]

I hated it. I hated it so much when I saw it over there, and I thought I. At the time, I thought it was gonna bomb here. And it's doing fine here.

[B]

Yeah, it's.

[A]

It's actually selling quite nicely. Tony wise. They did what they did, and they got solid reviews. They got a couple of really raves, a couple of negative ones, a mix from the Times, which is better than I would have thought a year ago. But it's. But it's worse than I think a lot of their fans expected. Like, when. When they started previews, everyone's like, guys, this is coming from maybe Happy Endings dinner.

[B]

And yes, I kind of remember that. I remember that people.

[A]

But also people said the same thing about real women have curves. They're like, yeah, like this is coming for everyone's dessert.

[B]

Yep.

[A]

And then sometimes the thing that perseveres is the right thing. You know, we get distracted by the new a lot, which is we should be looking for new, but, like, new doesn't always mean better.

[B]

Yes, continue on. Yes.

[A]

So real women. Operation Mincemeat. Next up, I have pirates, which, again, for me, wasn't bad. It was just sort of there.

[B]

I kind of liked it.

[A]

Here's my.

[B]

Daddy. Take me to the pirate Mardi Gras.

[A]

You sound like Gene Hagen in Singin in the Rain. Well, I liked it.

[B]

Well, I liked it.

[A]

Not Charlotte Rae.

[B]

Gene Hagen.

[A]

Oh, Charlotte Ray is.

[B]

Who do you think I am? Dumb as something.

[A]

There it is. Charlotte Ray has hated it. Hated it.

[B]

Hated pirates, hated mincemeat. I can't eat mincemeat. I have rosacea. Charlotte. What does that have to do with anything? Nothing. I just needed to share if I flake. Thanks, Charlotte.

[A]

God damn it.

[B]

Real women have curves. That's why Joe's not a real woman. Okay, Charlotte.

[A]

Jesus fucking Christ.

[B]

Okay, Charlotte. Okay. Too many.

[A]

Stop it, stop it, stop it.

[B]

I'M gonna kill you.

[A]

I'm gonna kill you.

[B]

I'm done.

[A]

I'm sorry. The pirate's performance wasn't bad. I thought that it started a little mid, and then the wash board thing was the best thing, and then it kind of just sort of ended.

[B]

I still have not seen this yet.

[A]

You don't need to, really. I love.

[B]

I actually love Pirates of Penzance.

[A]

I do, too.

[B]

Oh, do you really?

[A]

I love Pirates of Penzance.

[B]

And I kind of was like, oh, this sounds kind of fun. Like a Mardi Gras theme.

[A]

Yeah. But the songs don't sound exciting anymore. Oh, the zaniness is gone. Really? Yeah.

[B]

Oh, you see, that's fun. I would think it'd be Zanier because you would think. I see. Okay.

[A]

But no, they should have done Modern Major General and the Tonys because it fucking nails in the theater.

[B]

Yeah. But, yeah, I was kind of surprised.

[A]

Yeah. And like, Holmes has come up with some solid jokes in the book. Act two fully lost me. And the finale made me want to get violent. And this is the finale of the show, but they cut out the first part where they all clap around and go, we're all from different places. We're all from different places. The ending of the show, because granted, Pirates has always kind of had a messy ending. Yeah. But in this version, because it's also a show within a show.

[B]

What?

[A]

This version of Pirates, Gilbert and Sullivan come out at the top, and they're like, we are Gilbert and Sullivan. We are the knights whose end. And we have had massive success with Princess Ida.

[B]

We've all had success with Princess Ida.

[A]

Hey, hey, do like. We wrote the Mercado.

[B]

What's wrong with them?

[A]

We. We. We wrote HMS Pinafore. And everybody has been fucking stealing from us and doing unlicensed productions of our shows. So we are getting ahead of all of you.

[B]

Are they from South Park? Are they the two kids from the Canadians from South Park? That's what they sound like. Yes. It's the.

[A]

It's the. It's Terrence and Philip. It's Terrence and Philip. During the nights, you say Nate, and they're going, we have decided to set Paris and Penzance in New Orleans for you Americans. But also it stops you from trying to steal our copyright. Gays. Let the games begin. And then the show begins, and then it just stays that way for the whole rest of the show.

[B]

What? Wow. Really?

[A]

Yeah. Well, I think they close it at the end where they're like. And now the show's over. But then in Act 2, at the very end of Act 2, they're doing the fighting. The pirates and the policemen and the sisters. They're all like, you go home. No, you go home. You go home. David Hyper stops everyone. He goes, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa. None of us can go home because this isn't our home. We are on stolen land and we are all from different places. This country is a melting pot. And then everybody comes to the front of the stage and they go, we're all from different places.

[B]

Are you joking?

[A]

Nope.

[B]

They sing it like that.

[A]

Well, it sounded that way to me.

[B]

Fabulous.

[A]

That was the ninth time my mother turned to me and went, huh? What?

[B]

Can't wait to see it. Yeah, I like the washboards.

[A]

The washboards were the best part about it, and I'm glad they did that. And not the different places.

[B]

Washboard and dinging. I loved it. The little bell.

[A]

Yeah, it was cute. Again, we're not talking about bad performances here.

[B]

No, you're just what you thought was effective.

[A]

We're now in the mid here for. For me. Next up is Death becomes her. I thought this was the wrong choice for them. They've done for the gays on late night, and they did a much fuller version of the song. And they. Because of time, they had to cut a lot of stuff out. And that is a one joke song. And what makes it funny is how it just keeps building.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

It just gets more and more ridiculous. It's like the joke is just the one thing, but, like, we're going to keep adding on it. And I get why it's. This number can sell. I wish they did something else.

[B]

Me too.

[A]

I can't necessarily tell you what it would be. Maybe some version, sort of the fall with the. With the fight or the. Or the. Even Alive Forever. I don't know.

[B]

I also. This is gonna sound so weird. I also don't think the way it was blocked for camera.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Helped.

[A]

Sure.

[B]

I know that's such a weird thing to say, but I felt like what the camera was doing was so different than what the. The storytelling needed.

[A]

Again, we're not talking about anything embarrassing.

[B]

Oh, God, no.

[A]

Just. You watch. You're like. That doesn't. That didn't land as well as it should have.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Megan also, I believe, had a lyric fumble.

[B]

Oh, really?

[A]

She did. She. She. Listen, she's Carnegie Mellon. She fixed it pretty quickly.

[B]

She's genius.

[A]

But, yeah, she, like, had to figure it all out.

[B]

She's genius.

[A]

Next up is my hot take, Gypsy.

[B]

I Had a Dream. Take it away. Matt Copley.

[A]

I dreamed it for you.

[B]

You love it. You love it.

[A]

And if it wasn' where would you be? Miss Gypsy Rose Lee.

[B]

That's Charlotte Rae.

[A]

Charlotte Rae. And the nights you say Nee. Imagine the nights you say ni Doing Rose's turn. And if it wasn't for me, where would you be? Miss Gypsy Rose Lee.

[B]

I would love to see that.

[A]

I would love to do it.

[B]

They're fun in the forest.

[A]

Here's the thing. The narrative of how that number went is all over the place.

[B]

You mean the cutting of it? No, truncation of it.

[A]

The narrative online. Oh. Is all over the place. Tell me more.

[B]

Tell me more.

[A]

Like, does he have a car?

[B]

Shoe, bub, up. Shoe, bub, bup. Shoe, bub, bup.

[A]

Yeah. So here's the thing about Rob Schneider. He can't actually sing.

[B]

No.

[A]

But if he pretends to be Robert Goulet, he kind of can.

[B]

Yeah. Maybe. Happy ending. Depend if she's got a hand cramp. I'm kidding. Nominees for Best Sound Designer. This is Robert Goulet's eighth drink of the evening. All right, so lay it on me, Gypsy. What didn't you like?

[A]

No. Well, so the Internet will have you believe two things.

[B]

Great.

[A]

It was incredible. Why does she not have nine Tonys for it? And. And another narrative of like, yikes, what was that? And granted, I tend to receive a lot of comments from people privately who don't like things because they think I'm a safe haven for negativity. I'm not a safe haven for negativity. I'm a safe haven for truth. Tell me your truth.

[B]

Your truth.

[A]

My truth only. No, but, like, no, no, but. Yeah, yeah, yeah. People coming to me and be like, can I be honest about something? I'm like, yeah, absolutely. Cone of silence, safe space. I'm not really a safe haven for dickotry. I. I have a couple of friends who are raging in a way that's fun and I'm. And I love them dearly and they're actually good people and sometimes just gotta get the bile out. So, like, we have, like, I have a special relationship with like three people that way. I'm like, hey, can I be an for a second? I need to just get this out of my system.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Like, they're like, you're.

[B]

They're.

[A]

You're screaming pillow. But I had a lot of people reach out to me, be like, the. Was that. And then I did privately go on my own Instagram in close friends for a second that I eventually deleted and I didn't say anything mean. I just was like, wasn't for me. And the truth is that it's still not for me. But then I also would have people be like. And we were talking about this off mic, I had a lot of people go, that's not what I saw in the theater. And then I have other people who are like, no, that's exactly what it was in the theater. And it's gorgeous. And I'm like, that's kind of what I saw in the theater. And I didn't like it then. The only difference between what I saw in the theater and on stage at the Tonys is a. It's shorter. It was cut down a bit, but I'm pretty sure it's the same cut that Bernadette Peters did 22 years ago.

[B]

Oh, okay.

[A]

And the tempo was faster because everything she did in the Tonys is similar to what I saw on Broadway. It's just that in the theater, she's at death tempo. That. That tempo in the theater is so slow. It actually made me angry.

[B]

Really?

[A]

Yeah. Because that. That number is a mental breakdown. But it's got. Gypsy has a motor to it. Mama Rose has a motor going. The meter's running outside. And it doesn't have to be three lines of cocaine, but it can't be just some people got it and make it pay. That's Tova Felch's tempo.

[B]

Sorry, sorry, that broke me.

[A]

Cartwheel and all. But.

[B]

But here she is. Boys.

[A]

Here'S my thing about Audrey and I talked about this in my review of Gypsy. What Audra does better than any performer, especially in musical theater right now is she is so good at getting to a space of raw truth.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

That woman can't be false on stage if she could help it.

[B]

Correct.

[A]

She can't play a helper about it. Maybe happy ending. She doesn't know how to be anything that authentic. Like, that woman is human to a fault. Where a director and a night and structure has to come into play. It's like, okay, how do we hone this? Because you can't let it all out all at once. Which, when I saw it both times, was kind of what she did the whole show. And so for Rose's turn both times I saw it, I didn't think she had anywhere to go. And so all it just became was floundering. It wasn't false. It was raw. But I was sort of spent by then of watching her already be having her nerves on stage already.

[B]

You mean prior to that number, or do you. Okay, okay.

[A]

Prior to that number. And because like that has to be the culmination of everything. It's like, okay, well, she's already like tearing herself apart during Everything's Coming Up Roses. She's already having half a breakdown during Gran Singer's office. Like Rose's turn wasn't for me the breakdown. It was just, well, now I've melted and it didn't even build that way. It just started as melting and became a puddle. And for some people that was effective. And I understand not having seen Audra on stage and seeing her do that for the first time being like, holy fuck. Because, yeah, it's impressive. I don't think it was applied great and I don't think that's a mean thing to say because this is a six time Tony winner who has given amazing performances in the past and obviously this performance lands for a lot of people. Landed for you. It doesn't land for me. And this performance was the same. It wasn't, I'll say. When we saw it last night in the room, the vibe was a little yikes. I watched it again today. I watched everything a second time today to be like, okay, fresh brain, clean butt. What do I think? And on a second view I'm like, it's not a yikes, but it's still a no for me. There was a moment where I go and it's representative of how I feel about this whole gypsy. There's a moment in her performance where I'm like, there it is. And it's after the right before she does, the mama's gotta let go in the silence. And her face is coming to terms with that. She has to say it out loud and she's holding it back. It's only for two seconds, but she's like holding it in and then says it out loud. And then her face again right before she says the why did I do it? And I'm like, that's what I want. And I need that for the first half of this number. I need you to not be sloppy right now. I need you to have. I need you to think you're selling it, but you have to control it. This is where the actress and the saleswoman have to blend. You got to build this thing, girl.

[B]

Do you think it's going to be a weird question? Do you think like when you go in to see this because you're so familiar with the show, that in your mind you're going, I know how this thing is supposed to go because I know all the verses and I know all the lyrics. And I know what the structure of it. It is supposed to be. And she's not matching what I'm seeing in my head. It's supposed to be. Does that make sense?

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Or are you able to abandon it and go, okay, she's. This is not how I've always seen it. Or this is not how I've imagined it. Let me go on this ride with her. Does that make sense?

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

That's a genuine question.

[A]

No, I know. I know. People like to think that if you don't like this Gypsy and if you don't like Audra in it, it's because of your own preconcert conceived notions of the show, which is entirely fair. I like to think of myself as someone who's open to interpretation. It's more that I go in and I just experience it. And as I'm experiencing it, I start asking myself, why am I feeling or not feeling a certain kind of way?

[B]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[A]

I'm. I don't give two shits on. Well, the, the emphasis is on this line. There's a here. I though if there's one thing I actually do have issues with, it is sluggishness of tempos. We'll talk about Sunset Boulevard in a second. Well, 10 seconds. But I went in actually ready to have my mind altered by Gypsy with this one because it was George C. Wolfe and because it was Audra. And I actually was surprised how little surprise I felt from it. It just felt under baked. So I was like, if. I think if I thought it was more bold, I think I would have been more forgiving of sloppiness or messiness. But it wasn't really bold. To me, it was a rather safe production, if, I mean, very honest.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And thus I was like, well, if you're gonna be safe, like, be tight as a. As a drum. Be Rob Schneider and Jerry Herman, baby.

[B]

Barbara Bil Getty's tight.

[A]

Well, not anymore. Well, Barbara Bil Getty circa Cat in the Haunted Roof.

[B]

Moment of silence. Now that's fascinating. Okay, cool.

[A]

But again, that's just me. But also, I know people who were obsessed with it and I. It's just this. That was not my performance. And I know people were like, I thought it was brilliant. It was messy, but it's brilliant. What she does as an actress is something so many people can't do. And especially in this era where we are raising Disney Channel acting and musicals, which is the mom, I gotta get into college.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Or, or. Or the dad, you don't Understand. I saw something. Something bad, and I just.

[B]

I don't have to deal with it.

[A]

Waiting through a window. Like, it's. It's that. It's like, why does nobody understand me?

[B]

Because you talk like that.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Talk like a real person.

[A]

There was that reel from that comedic actor who's like, why do all straight.

[B]

I loved it. I love it.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

I love it. And it's so true.

[A]

It's so true. So when you have someone like Audra who, granted, like, is taking a big swing that I don't think hits, but I am thrilled that she takes the swing. I'm like, guys, this is what it is to be organic on stage. I don't think this performance works, but, like, my God, look at all of herself she throws into it. But, you know, do I think the performance is successful?

[B]

No.

[A]

That's.

[B]

That Matt has spoken.

[A]

I have spoken, and we're moving on. Moving on to maybe happy ending is above Gypsy for me. I thought this was also a bad choice for them. It was very sweet. It was very pretty. I thought this was the wrong song. And, you know, they presented it well. The good news is that people who buy tickets and see that number in the theater are gonna be blown away at how much better it is in the theater.

[B]

Oh, yes. Yes.

[A]

After maybe happy ending. Sorry. We have real women have curves. Then it's Operation Mincemeat, then it's Pirates, then it's death becomes her, then it's Gypsy, then it's maybe happy ending, then it's Dead Outlaw, which I thought was solid.

[B]

I think it's good that straight people get to do musicals too. I think that's good for them. Yeah.

[A]

Where would we be without David Yazbeck? After Dead Outlaw is Just in time, which I thought was just in time, which I thought was fun. It was fun. It didn't blow me away, but it was fun. Again, none of these blew me away. After Just in Time is Floyd Collins, which I thought considering that show is. Considering the show is weird and considering that what Jeremy Jordan does in the Call you can't replicate on Radio City Music hall stage.

[B]

So, friends, once again, Matt has ranked Floyd Collins is number three, and Gypsy is down at seven.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Okay. Once again, friends, that is Floyd Collins at 3, Gypsy at 7.

[A]

Well, they're not surprised, because in my rankings of the season overall, Floyd Collins was at number seven, and Gypsy was at number 22.

[B]

Really? Wow.

[A]

It was above mattress.

[B]

Wait, what was at the bottom of the list? Mattress.

[A]

No, bottom of the list was left on. Mattress wasn't garbage. It just. I thought it was mayonnaise and. And a copy paste job for encores and everybody knows it. That's not me being mean. That's. Everyone knows that.

[B]

No, no one said you were mean.

[A]

Left on 10th was bottom of the list.

[B]

Really? Yes.

[A]

Are you kidding?

[B]

I didn't see it. I don't know. I don't know what the hell goes on.

[A]

Left on 10th had the audacity to have a line on stage where someone says, actually I had aids.

[B]

Are you joking?

[A]

Would I joke to you about Delia Ephron?

[B]

The seriousness. Would I joke to you about Delia Ephron?

[A]

Nora Ephron's sister?

[B]

Nora Ephron's sister? Don't. It doesn't matter who Nora Ephron. Just. I would not be joking about it.

[A]

A play that pontificates about the glories of seven brides for seven brothers.

[B]

I don't like that show.

[A]

Oh, I hate the movie.

[B]

Bless your beautiful hide.

[A]

Like, what is that is calling women cows.

[B]

I saw the show once at a high school and the girl fell off the stage and broke her neck. Like, she sprained it.

[A]

Lucky girl.

[B]

And she did the next performance in a neck brace and to, like, make it look like everything was normal, they stuck a huge, like, cameo brooch in the middle of the neck brace to make it look, like, integrated to the costume.

[A]

That's how Chenoweth did a lot of performances of Wicked, actually.

[B]

That's what I heard.

[A]

She had a bejeweled neck brace.

[B]

Yeah, she does it a lot.

[A]

Oh, yeah. But Floyd Collins I was actually impressed at. I mean, it wasn't perfect. And like, the camera operator, that poor camera operator was probably told, like, you have to keep it.

[B]

Oh, God bless whoever that was.

[A]

They were like, you have to keep it above Jeremy's waist at all times. And he's like, how, like he's slipping around this whole stage. How do I do this?

[B]

No.

[A]

And I'm sure watching in a Radio City Music hall, you're like, I'm watching Jeremy Jordan slip and slide on the Radio City Music hall stage. What is this?

[B]

On camera, it looked great. CAMERAMAN 7 Leo. Great job.

[A]

Well, because if you saw Floyd Collins Friends, you know the way that set works. And that set came under a lot of scrutiny during previews. And I think the set is actually really nice. That deck has pockets in it where platforms will rise and lower. And, like, you can be a ladder, it can be a slip and slide, like, all these things. And like, Jeremy is going all over the place. In the dark with a single spotlight on him. So at any given moment, he's on the deck, and then all of a sudden he's just like rising 10ft in the air and it's gorgeous. It's my favorite number of the year.

[B]

Oh, that's so cool.

[A]

Yeah, but you can't do that on Radio City Musical. They don't have that.

[B]

Do you think that? Well, no, you ranked it pretty high, so I won't even ask you.

[A]

No, it's. I don't think it's selling any tickets. Next up, number two for me was Bonavista Social Club, which I thought the only thing that this suffered from was bad camera work. I thought the number itself was quite good, but I thought they just didn't. They didn't capture well on camera. For me, number one was Sunset, which I don't even think was a great performance. I just think it was the best of the lot. And because they took a slice and just presented it.

[B]

Wow.

[A]

They're like, the show is Nicole. That's what this is. We're not gonna do the title song, which I understand why people want them to. That would have been, you know, a super television worthy moment. But I think ultimately they wanted to celebrate Nicole in a way that they didn't celebrate her at the Oliviers. They celebrated Tom in that number. So for the Tonys, it's like. It's Nicole.

[B]

Wow.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

She's number one for you.

[A]

Yes, but she's not an A or A minus. She's not even a B. I would.

[B]

Say she's a B. Yeah, yeah, I'd say.

[A]

I would say Sunset Buena Vista and Floyd Collins are B's. Just in time. Dead Outlaw, maybe Happy Ending are B minuses. Gypsy Death becomes her are Cs. Pirates, mincemeat and real women have curse are Cs.

[B]

Wow.

[A]

And listen, a C is still a passing grade. It's actually two steps above a passing grade. But, you know, I. I think we're talking C to B here.

[B]

Did you see Mandy Gonzalez?

[A]

I've listened to Mandy Gonzalez.

[B]

So good. Her son is so good.

[A]

That's actually probably a low sing for her.

[B]

Yeah, she's so good.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

That was hard for me because I was watching Nicole and I was like. I kept thinking, mandy Gonzalez.

[A]

I wish I could have. I wish they would look up the keys for Mandy if they could do Patty's original keys for Mandy.

[B]

The Beast, the Beef. That's what they call something called good rankings. Oh, my God.

[A]

Thank you. What were your favorite numbers of the Night Pirates, Gypsy, the things you had and real long have curves. Your top three.

[B]

Matt is literally packing up my bag for me and asking me to leave his house.

[A]

Every bag under your eye, I'm packing.

[B]

What? Why? I loved. I loved Gypsy. I loved Gypsy. I love Nicole. Nicole. Nicole and Audrey were my top two, honestly. Because what. This is from an academic perspective, so please forgive me. Watching Nicole navigate a lyric, I think is really good.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And I was like, kids, are you watching this? Like, are you watching how she's doing this lyric work? And I was like, this is incredible.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

It's not a mood, it's not an aura. It's. It's like she is going moment to moment with these lyrics.

[A]

She is my kids.

[B]

Watch this.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Now watch Audra. I'm gonna be honest with you. Is Audrey the definitive Mama Rose? No. Is Nicole Scherzinger the definitive Norma Desmond? No. But there were things that were really intriguing with Audra. I was like, look at the rawness. Look at that. You can say, I don't like it. It's not right for the amazing, fantastic. Just look at what she's doing. Look at that, look at that. She's leaving it all fucking. She ain't marking. She ain't holding back. Like, she's not afraid. And I don't mean this in a pejorative sense, to be emotionally ugly. And so those two. I was like, that's exciting to me. Is that the best production of Sunset I'll ever see? No, it's the best production of Gypsy I'll ever see. No. But I was like, that's exciting for me. That's exciting. And Pirates was joyous. Pirates was silly and stupid and joyous.

[A]

Rob said that to me with the most shit eating grin on his face. And Pirates was joyous.

[B]

And I will say what was hard for me on map, maybe happy ending, which I fucking loved. Yeah. I saw it in the theater and I was like. I was on cloud nine. I was like, this is not selling this show. But I was also like, I don't know what the alternative would be.

[A]

Yeah. I think them winning six very major awards.

[B]

I hope that would be enough for people.

[A]

I think it will.

[B]

Yeah. That show made me feel all the feels.

[A]

Yeah. I think ultimately that show has proven to be a word of mouth hit.

[B]

I think the best use of like, hey, we're gonna be on camera now.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Dead Outlaw, Sure. Hands down, Dead Outlaw looked fun and raw and this and it looked like it. I hate. Oh, God, it's gonna sound so horrible.

[A]

And Your homophobic uncle probably wants to see it.

[B]

That's what. Yes. I was like, this is your straight. My. My. I'm a woman. My boyfriend. My husband doesn't want to go to musicals.

[A]

That's what.

[B]

I'm gonna take him.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Every straight guy I know loves Dead Outlaw.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

They all fucking love it.

[A]

Yeah. It's the new Floyd Collins in the last five years, baby. Okay, somebody said. Oh, Matt, someone at your Tony party tagged Jennifer Simard. Did she go there after the telecast or something? No. The host of the Tony party that I was at that Rob Schneider was supposed to go to was being hosted by one Patrick Hines, who hosts the true crime Obsessed podcast, but more importantly, the Golden Girls Deep Dive podcast. And his co host is Jennifer Simard. So she wasn't there.

[B]

And.

[A]

And she wasn't going to be there, but she was there in spirit. And so it was him and his husband, Steve Tipton. Hi, Steve. Steve listens.

[B]

Hey, Steve. I love Steve.

[A]

Steve is great.

[B]

I love Patrick, too, but I love Steve.

[A]

But we got a lunch coming up with Steve soon.

[B]

We do. We're gonna go to Joe Allen's and gossip.

[A]

Yep. Steve has been informed that there is no chess poster there. So we don't. We can't sit under a chess poster.

[B]

So we will bring our own.

[A]

We will bring our own. Yes.

[B]

Of the new production.

[A]

I'm gonna bring the. Oh, yeah. The new production of Chess. We were.

[B]

That'll be great. Matt's face.

[A]

Well, just. Can chess ever really be great?

[B]

Yes, if you listen to the cd.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

You don't see it. Yeah, I'm hoping it. Listen, who's directing this?

[A]

I don't know who Michael Mayer is.

[B]

Michael Mayer is doing. Okay, cool.

[A]

And Lauren Lotaro is doing the choreography.

[B]

Look how friends. I wish you could see how happy Matt is right now.

[A]

I don't know what you're talking about.

[B]

He's ecstatic.

[A]

I simply said two names.

[B]

He's fine. Who plays the other girl?

[A]

Svetlana.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

No one knows yet. Nobody knows who's on Svetlana. Yeah. There are rumors, and I don't believe any of them, really. And to quote Lindsay Lohan, I'm tired of rumors starting. I'm sick of being followed.

[B]

Oh, God. I wanna know who they. Okay, never mind.

[A]

I don't know who it is.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

Okay, next question. Already discussed, Discord. But I want to hear Matt Koplik's take. They were underwhelmed by Gypsy's performance. Might be the fact that the camera was up in her pores. Not. I mean, not just for the second half when it got really intense. And if it wasn't for me, you loved it.

[B]

You love it. Oh, my God.

[A]

Then where would you be, Miss Gypsy Rosalie? I'm also. I'm like. I'm dragging it up, and it's now become a. Could I be read? Could it be red? I think this performance will work better for me once I see the preceding 12 hours of Audra's take on Rose. It's entirely possible that you will like it more once you see the full show. For me, this is exactly what I saw at the theater, and I was whelmed at the time. Some speculation here. Grain of salt. Someone said that they thought maybe Hat Biennie's performance was stunning and it convinced me to buy tickets to the show. So great. Fuck our drag, sir.

[B]

Great. I love that. That's exactly what I want to hear.

[A]

You think I'm ever gonna be mad that someone's like, that convinced me to buy a ticket?

[B]

I know. I love that. That's exact. Great.

[A]

If 10 people are like, I don't care what you say, I bought 30 tickets to real Men have Curves.

[B]

Go. Go.

[A]

You think that makes me angry?

[B]

Go support. My God.

[A]

It don't make me angry. It'd make me angry. If you're like, I watched the Real Women have Cursed performance and it convinced me to go to my local theater and buy two tickets to the national tour of Back to the Future, then I would go, why?

[B]

Then Matt gets angry. No, that's wonderful.

[A]

Cole and Nicole were both dressed impeccably. Yes. They were both stunning individuals in stunning outfits. You know how Nicole Escola was dressed, right?

[B]

Oh, like Bernadette Peters and Annie get yout Gun.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

When she wanted.

[A]

When she won her Tony for Annie.

[B]

Get yout Gun, I was hoping they'd have medals on too.

[A]

It would be great.

[B]

Take the Tonys and make medals.

[A]

She should. He should have won. They should have been dressed as Bernadette when Bernadette was nominated for Gypsy the last time so they could accept the Tony in the outfit. That Bernadette could have accepted it.

[B]

Oh, that would have been great.

[A]

That would have been great. But Cole and I don't know each other yet. Yet they and I will be knowing each other quite nicely.

[B]

I'm so curious to see what they do next.

[A]

Oh, yeah. Sky's the limit as far as I'm concerned. Also, I loved Francis Jew's speech about his toxic and everything. Yeah, that was a nice thing. Yeah. Okay, we're gonna take a Quick break. And then we will get to the rest of these after this break. Billy, I beg to differ with you. How do you mean? You're the top. Yeah. You're an arrow collar.

[B]

You're the top.

[A]

You're a Coolidge dollar. You're the nimble tread of the feet of Fred Astag. And we're back.

[B]

Do it again. Do it.

[A]

You know, you have to say Helen.

[B]

Helen.

[A]

Word.

[B]

I wanted Josh Layman to have a full song.

[A]

He has that one reprise.

[B]

I want. I want him to get the whole Duncan thing. I love.

[A]

I know he's got a great voice.

[B]

He's so talented.

[A]

He's so freaking talented.

[B]

I can't stand talented.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And I loved him in the pro. I love him. Yeah. I just kept thinking about how good Audra was.

[A]

Adam Feldman just wrote on Facebook today that history will be on his side, that Audra's Tony performance is one for the record books. And listen, maybe I'm wrong. I have seen performances that people have claimed will go down in the record books and we don't talk about them anymore. I've seen performances that people like that was mid and like, surprise, surprise, they're playing it every week at Musical Mondays. The biggest. The biggest homopho PA was Jesse Green's live commentary last night where he said, doing Rose's turn on the Tony Awards is a rite of passage. Bernadette did it, Patty did it. Now Audra. And we all went, jesse, Patty didn't do Rose's turn. She famously chewed her way through Everything's Coming Up Roses where she, like the over actress she is, went up to that cart and started shaking that cart. And I went, arthur, you have the audacity to ream Sam Mendes. And you let Patty do that. They let you do that your first class freshman year. And then you have to put it away.

[B]

I will go on record. The Bernadette Peters Sam Mendes version was fabulous. Fabulous.

[A]

Guess what, Rob Schneider.

[B]

What?

[A]

I agree.

[B]

We agree.

[A]

We agree.

[B]

It was fabulous.

[A]

Fabulous.

[B]

Fabulous.

[A]

Baby, we sound like. We sound like Sex and the City. Everything will be fabulous.

[B]

It was fabulous.

[A]

Fabulous.

[B]

And fucking Arthur Lawrence can suck it.

[A]

I'm so glad he's dead.

[B]

Arthur Lawrence can suck it.

[A]

And he did. Many times.

[B]

Many, many times.

[A]

Many times. Listen, if there's one thing I'll tell, I'll give that man credit for is that he had the decency to pass away.

[B]

Oh, my God.

[A]

He understood. When the party no longer it's time to go. And he left this mortal coil about the same way in which he Entered, which is that everyone who had loved him in this world died.

[B]

Is that true?

[A]

His parents and his partner, Matt.

[B]

The bitterness of what? God, you don't like this man.

[A]

Talk about a man who was vicious for no reason.

[B]

That is true. That is true.

[A]

This is what I will give Arthur Lawrence credit for. He wrote the book of Gypsy, which is a good, phenomenal libretto. He wrote the book for west side Story, which is also a really strong libretto. Does its job. He directed the OG La Cage, which you have thoughts on. I think that he. I do think he is personally responsible for reshaping Gypsy's reputation as a musical, because it was always considered a good musical.

[B]

I will give you that.

[A]

And then with Angela. With Angela and Tyne, it became. No, no, no. This is the role for which. Give him credit for that. He wrote the screenplay for the Turning Point.

[B]

He did.

[A]

Which is fun.

[B]

And that concludes Matt's.

[A]

He wrote. Well, you know, he wrote another screenplay that I actually didn't hate. It wasn't rope, because that thing is stupid. You don't like rope? I didn't say that. I like rope. It's stupid.

[B]

Oh, it's so good.

[A]

It's so fucking stupid.

[B]

The acting in that is something. It's so the script, actually, the screenplay I like. It's the acting that bothers me.

[A]

You know what I like is Time of the Cuckoo. You know what I like more? Summertime with Katharine Hepburn. Yep.

[B]

Can it be red?

[A]

Can it be red?

[B]

Can it be red? And Communion Dress.

[A]

Daddy. Daddy. But, yeah, for a man whose collaborators all went on to be greater giants than he, he had a lot of vicious opinions about everything they ever did, about everything anyone else did. And I'm like, you need to sit the fuck down.

[B]

See, if I were him and I created Gypsy, and then somebody like Sam Mendes came along and, like, totally directed in a different way, I would be like, hey, good for me. I created something that can have, like, 90 different interpretations to it. Yeah. Like, how cool is that?

[A]

And it does nothing to your legacy.

[B]

No. It just is like, look at what a great book you wrote, man.

[A]

It's like Shakespeare, you know, who was as rigid about their legacy as Arthur Lawrence was for gypsy. J.K. rowling in Harry Potter.

[B]

Are you joking? Are you serious?

[A]

No. She's so rigid about her legacy, she won't allow fan fiction because she's a giant asshole.

[B]

Let people enjoy. You create something.

[A]

Let people like things.

[B]

Let people.

[A]

That's why when I. When I talk about the things I don't like that someone else might like, I really don't want to talk about in a way where I'm like you for liking this.

[B]

No.

[A]

Unless it's finding Neverland Jack a Little pill paradise, going back to the future.

[B]

Wait a minute, wait a minute.

[A]

We know. We've talked about the Jack A Little pill before. We're not going down this roll road again, Rob.

[B]

Okay, We.

[A]

I know you saw it in its infancy.

[B]

Okay, okay. I'm not gonna talk about it. You.

[A]

You went on one date with Jackie, Little pill, and you went. Maybe marriage material. And then he found out that it never actually went to therapy and did the work.

[B]

I know. I'm sorry. Isn't it ironic? It's like rain on your paint.

[A]

I was about to say if it makes you happy. But that's not her, is it?

[B]

No, that's if it makes you happy. Who is it?

[A]

That's another one.

[B]

That's Arthur Lawrence.

[A]

That's Arthur Lawrence.

[B]

That's the other screenplay you're thinking of.

[A]

Arthur Lawrence's catchphrase. It's like, I was so proud of the work I did. Well, if it makes you happy.

[B]

Makes you happy.

[A]

Yep.

[B]

He wrote the screenplay, I think, to 10 things I hate about you, Connie and Carla. You remember that one he did, Connie and Carla.

[A]

Arthur Lawrence wrote the first draft, the 10 things I hate about you. And it was called all the things about you that I Hate. And then when we got to limit this, it's 90,000 things.

[B]

Fine, 10.

[A]

10. And then they gave it to somebody else.

[B]

Bitter man. You were saying? I'm sorry.

[A]

I don't even know what I was saying. Oh, someone wrote. Okay, wait.

[B]

I'm so sorry. I kind of forgot we were on the air.

[A]

That's been this whole episode.

[B]

I'm sorry.

[A]

What did you think of Nicole's acceptance speech? Honestly, I thought it was cringe. I love her and was happy she won. I also was not mad she won. But her speech was a bit Norma Desmond in real life. Yeah, no, she's. In a lot of ways, she's Norma in real life, which a lot of people are like, well, where is the acting then? To which I say, why are you rooting for Jonathan Groff to win Best Actor when he literally, openly was playing Jonathan Groff said so himself. That's the double standard that I was talking about. Also, why must Audra turn herself inside out to show us how much she can be like Billie Holiday just to shut up the haters. And Jonathan Groff gets away with not doing any Bobby Darin at all.

[B]

That's a very good Point.

[A]

It makes me a little furious. And it's not his fault. He benefits from the double standard, but he didn't create it. But I'm like, guys, no, I don't. I don't like this. This is what we should be talking about. Not the, oh, you liked Tyne Daly and not Audra. Racist.

[B]

How can you not hate you?

[A]

I gotta.

[B]

Everyone loves Dyne Daly.

[A]

Just about everyone loves Tyne Daly.

[B]

You know who said she played Mary Beth, by the way? Mary Beth Lacey. I just remembered.

[A]

So she was Lacy.

[B]

She was Lacy.

[A]

Fantastic.

[B]

Christine Cagney was Sharon Glass. Shannon Glass.

[A]

Sharon Glass.

[B]

Sharon or Shannon? Shannon Glass. Shannon.

[A]

You know what doesn't matter today? Knowing if it's Sharon or Shannon. I keep seeing people online slam Nicole for her political views or her alleged political views. That's the other thing I will say. No one actually knows her political views.

[B]

Okay. Can I tell you something that really bothers me?

[A]

Yes.

[B]

People that are going, oh, don't go see the show because she's a Trump supporter. Do you all realize that one of the biggest owners of Broadway's theaters is a massive Trump supporter and probably one of Trump's best friends and consistently gives money to his campaign.

[A]

Is it Nederlander or Drew Jemson? Oh, yeah, Nederlander. Yeah, yeah.

[B]

Oh, I'm not. Nederlander was not the name that I was thinking of.

[A]

You're thinking of Jordan Roth's father. Yeah, yeah.

[B]

That money that you. You're spending at the theater has more of a chance of getting in Trump's pocket than anything else.

[A]

Oh, yeah, Than. Than for queer rights. Trans rights. Absolutely.

[B]

You know what I mean? So. So like, don't.

[A]

Don't give me ironic that Cabaret is playing at it. Well, it's now atg, but there. Don't they co own it with Drew Jamison now?

[B]

I believe they do. Don't quote me.

[A]

Yeah, it's a. Yeah, it's a co ownership. And also, by the way, lest we forget that.

[B]

Boop.

[A]

The show that you all were writing petitions to be performed on. The Tonys. Their composer. Oh, yeah, their composer. I'm just saying it's selective.

[B]

It's select. It's selective.

[A]

Well, she's a woman. That helps in terms of being a target. Nicole, you mean Nicole's a woman. Oh, yeah, yeah, she's a woman. And so it's easier to have her be a target. She's also an actress and as a public figure in that respect. And it's easier to be a target that way, because the person who we actually hate, we can't do anything about right now.

[B]

Correct.

[A]

And so it's easier to focus all that energy on someone like Nicole.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And people think that they're supporting Audra by tearing her down. And I'm like, it's as if none of us saw John Proctor as the villain. This is literally.

[B]

There's literally a line that shows about this guy.

[A]

There's literally a line about this and John Proctor is the villain where one of the boys tears down Sadie Sink and the other girl said, why did you do that? He's like, well, I was trying to show you all that I was supporting you by tearing her down.

[B]

It's a weird time, man. It is a weird time.

[A]

All I can do is be perfect. And let me tell you, it gets easier every day.

[B]

Think. Let me ask you a question, Tony. It's a Tony Award question. When you go in to vote for a Tony Award, like, let's imagine you. I mean, you come up with a ballot, like, do you know what I mean? Our votes don't count, but like, well.

[A]

You do it online now. Yeah.

[B]

But like, do you feel when you do, you go, what is the best performance? Or do you take into account all the other things?

[A]

I have to. I have to find that person so hateful for me to do that. If the person gave an undeniable performance and I don't like them as a person, I would go, you know what? I can't. I can't.

[B]

But even, even bigger, there's like five acting nominations, nominees, and one of these nominees, boy, if they won, they would be the first in this demographic or this ethnic group to win the Tony Award. Does that. Does any of that play a part when you vote, or do you just go, the best performance for me is this. What do we leave at the door and what do we take with us?

[A]

I think about history and I think about outside context. If I. If it comes down to two people and I can't make up my mind.

[B]

Oh, interesting. That's when the other factors come and.

[A]

That becomes less of a. What's more political and more just. Like, what would excite me to win now? Ah, like if I. If you were to. If. Let, let's. Let us say that it came down to Jasmine and Nicole for me as a voter, and I'm like, I genuinely can't decide. I loved them both equally for very different reasons. And I, like, I thought about this for a week. I can't make up mind. I would then have to ask myself what win would excite me more in terms of the landscape of the Tonys.

[B]

Yeah. Yeah.

[A]

Not even, like, who they are as a person, but like, to know. See this win happen.

[B]

Yep.

[A]

And then I would go from there. But yeah, I don't. I don't listen. So many people on Broadway have baggage or tied to baggage. And so many of them, you'll never know.

[B]

Oh, God.

[A]

Because they have really good teams and they're very smart about how much they show you. I want to say this again, guys. So many of us do not actually know these people. We see them on stage, we see them on Instagram, and we think, I know them. You don't know them. You really don't. You don't know what goes on at those theaters. You don't know how those casts are. You really don't. Some shows that have had very public we all get along faces have had some of the worst backstage cultures you could think of.

[B]

Yep.

[A]

That's all.

[B]

For example, well, Broadway Breakdown.

[A]

Broadway Breakdown. Everybody hates Broadway Breakdown. No, there was. There was a show put on a face of we all get along. It's all a happy family. Famously not so. Ask any single person on Broadway. Like, do you know what the vibe was like at that theater? And everyone's like, oh, girl, really? Yep.

[B]

I wonder what show. Can you malve it? Oh, yeah. Oh, that's. Yeah, yeah.

[A]

Rob thought I was supposed to, like, give him tea and he's like, oh, her. Everyone knows that.

[B]

Oh, that group was.

[A]

But on. But on social media, you would never.

[B]

Social media, everyone's best friends.

[A]

Absolutely. No, I know, I know.

[B]

Get them off stage and you hear what happens.

[A]

Oh, they hit that stage with the fire that they feel.

[B]

Rehearsal, we don't need rehearsal.

[A]

Rehearsal. Where we're going, we don't need rehearsal. I am conflicted, uncomfortable by the online discourse around Nicole's political views. Yeah, no, I'll say people aren't having conversations anymore. And you'll never see it online. You won't see it on Twitter, you won't see it on Instagram, you won't see it on chat rooms. You can only have it in person. Because also, once people go online and they are faceless, they imagine you as faceless. And they don't have conversations, they just speak. And even let's. Let's say Nicole did vote for a certain man with tiny hands. Ask yourselves, is she brainwashed? Is she evil? Is she a single issue voter? Which a lot of people this last election were.

[B]

True. That is true.

[A]

I also say there are people I know who did not vote for that man with the little hands who voted for the very accomplished woman. People who I can't stand.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

People who are just awful human beings. But they voted how I voted politically. Does that make them saints now? There are people who could have been Me too'd by the New York Times on Broadway and weren't because that article got killed. They all voted for Kamala. I'm just saying.

[B]

You speak the truth, my friend.

[A]

Yep.

[B]

Speak the truth.

[A]

Everyone knows it's fine. I saw a video of Cole and Sam from a Mary. When Nicole won, we talked about that. Is she ever gonna be able to live down the hat thing? No. Someone was asking, will Nicole ever be able to live down the hat? No, she's never gonna be able to live that down. Not on Broadway anyway. Do we think. And that's why Broadway is, in a lot of ways, still mean girls. Even though it is accepting in a lot of ways, it also is just mean girls. Do we think it was all a mistake, Misunderstanding? I think it was a mistake. I don't think it was misunderstanding.

[B]

Ah, that's interesting.

[A]

I do think that she. She's in a lot of ways, her character. Not in the ways that she's not acting on stage. She is acting. She's giving a performance because she is giving Sunset Boulevard as it lives and Sunset Boulevard as Jamie Lloyd sees it. And she blends it in a way where it makes sense to me. And that's really fucking hard to do because what Jamie Lloyd sees is not what Sunset Boulevard is. But she finds that balance. That's hard to do. Do you think if just in Time waited one more year, John could have gotten taken his second Tony next year if he inhabited Bobby Darin. A bit more cool thing. If Lea Michele wins a Tony next year, it'll be the fourth Glee alum in a row to win a Tony. That's true. Because we have. We have Groff and Alex Newell last. Sorry. Alex Newell won in 2023. Groff won in 2024. Darren won this year. And then if Leo wins next year.

[B]

Oh, wow, that's kind of cool.

[A]

Yeah. But will Leo win?

[B]

It depends on what else is coming in. She'll be up against what, Kristin Chenoweth.

[A]

She'll be up against Kristin Chenoweth, Casey Levy for Ragtime, whoever's playing Janet, I guess, and Rocky Horror. And that's all. I mean, the word I have is that Cats is coming in, but that doesn't have a best actress. No category. There are other music. Midnight in Garden, Midnight in the Garden, Sierra maybe. But also, I Don't know how true that is, that that's coming in. They want it to come in, but will it? Who knows?

[B]

Yeah, I hear that's a pretty good thing.

[A]

We'll see.

[B]

Coming in.

[A]

We'll see. Okay, moving on. How did real women have curves get to perform? We talked about that. I thought there were strict rules. Yes, we talked about that.

[B]

Is that all rules?

[A]

I voted for Megan.

[B]

I wonder if it was a Megan.

[A]

Thoughts on the opener and the Closer? I thought both were great. I enjoyed them a lot. Yeah, I. I mean, did. I think that the opening number was.

[B]

Like, it was classy. It actually set the tone, which I thought was nice, which is like, this is going to be an evening that's benign where the host wasn't like, look at me, look at me, look at me. And I appreciate it.

[A]

And didn't do jokes that were like, oh, she said it.

[B]

It was very pleasant.

[A]

Oprah was the only one who kind of went there. I would say. I think that again, I think Cynthia's team did a really good job of balancing jokes.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

Of making it a feel good celebration of the theater while poking some fun at some.

[B]

She was great. She was wonderful.

[A]

I love, like, when she's talking about leading actor in a plane, she's like. And there's an up and comer. George Clooney. Yeah, George boy.

[B]

George Clooney got a lot of jokes. He was a good sport.

[A]

Also, like, it was the day that his show closed. He was like, I got my Tony nomination. We made a buck ton of money.

[B]

Do you think he'll ever come? I kind of got the impression that he's like, I'm never coming back here.

[A]

I don't think so. I think this was like a bucket list thing.

[B]

Good for him. Yeah.

[A]

I think he's done.

[B]

I hear only great things about him, by the way.

[A]

Yeah, no, he's.

[B]

He's never heard of bad.

[A]

He's genuine good people. I haven't heard, like, bad things, but, you know, he's a prankster and he's.

[B]

Oh, yes. Yeah.

[A]

And like. And there was a time when he was only dating women like, like, much younger than him.

[B]

And do you know the story about when he made Richard Kind audition for the Penguin?

[A]

No. I know that he and Richard Kind.

[B]

Are best friends because they are best.

[A]

My. My dad is very good friends with Richard.

[B]

I love Richard Kind.

[A]

Who doesn't?

[B]

Oh, my God.

[A]

Richard. Every time my dad sees Richard for golf, Richard asks how I am, and that's how. That's how I know. I'm Important.

[B]

Oh, Richard's the best.

[A]

Do you want. I don't think he's a voter, but if he was a voter, I could tell you which revival he would have voted for.

[B]

Really? What did he love?

[A]

He loved Sunset.

[B]

Did he really? Oh, my God. Oh, my. Amazing, amazing. Oh, God, do I love him.

[A]

If anybody's made it this far, God bless him. This is. This is the la. I've got my Call Me Izzy review after this, which will be like a day or two after this episode comes out. And then we're going on a bit of a hiatus. Yeah, well, it's been a long season and I'm tired.

[B]

Take a break. You deserve it.

[A]

Yeah. And I've got like some reformatting of episodes I'm gonna do and I have to start recording for the next Deep Dive series.

[B]

What's your. What's your D Dice series?

[A]

It's Matt's picks from the Grab Bag. Matt's Picks. Actually, I don't think I've actually announced what the picks are. Maybe I take this moment. Hold, please.

[B]

While Matt is doing that, I will take the time to acknowledge that this has just been a wonderful podcast. And if you. If you like this, make sure to take a listen to what sounds mine called Broadway bound musicals that never came to Broadway. Also on the Broadway podcast network work. It's a wonderful documentary series that Matt is highly featured in this season especially.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Yes. Matt's done a lot of good work.

[A]

I think I'm on almost every episode.

[B]

Yeah, there's one episode actually where I just recorded it. I didn't use anybody's voices, so don't be offended.

[A]

I'm not. And I don't think I'm in the Grover's Corners episode. I don't think you are either, but I'm in everything else.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

Yeah. So what's Grab Bag? Okay, so the Grab Bag series was the last series. You were on it for the three part Angels in America. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. That's when we did Sally Bowles and we picked things out of the Sally bowl the listeners submitted. And then this is the things that weren't picked out of Sally bowl that I really wanted to cover.

[B]

Oh, okay.

[A]

So these include the Bob Fosse film All that Jazz.

[B]

I love that movie.

[A]

The stage version of Cabaret.

[B]

Love that.

[A]

The movie version of Chicago. Great Dreamgirls stage show. Yeah. The Drowsy Chaperone.

[B]

Oh, yeah.

[A]

The Glass Menagerie.

[B]

God, that me. Okay.

[A]

The Goat or who is Sylvia?

[B]

Wait, I gotta tell you. Okay, go.

[A]

And that's one. I actually don't know.

[B]

Do you know the rumor that this is coming back? Mm, yeah. Okay.

[A]

I don't know. With who? Oh, it's Sarah Paulson, right? Sarah Paulson.

[B]

I heard Steve Carell and Sarah Paulson.

[A]

Yeah, that's. I was about to say Steve Carell.

[B]

So. This show changed my life.

[A]

I want to go to the library to watch it. I think it's Mercedes Ruel. Right?

[B]

You have no idea how this changed my life.

[A]

Maybe you want to fuck a goat.

[B]

Yeah, maybe. Want to fuck a goat.

[A]

Next up, Natasha Pierre and the great comet of 1812.

[B]

What? Oh, wow.

[A]

The Internet will hate you. Hedwig und the Angry Inch.

[B]

Fabulous.

[A]

How I Learned to Drive.

[B]

Oh, good play.

[A]

One of my top five favorite places.

[B]

What a good play.

[A]

Yep. Oh, the light in the piazza.

[B]

Oh, beautiful ponies.

[A]

Ponies everywhere Next to normal. She loves me. Oh, that's Gene Stapleton's saying she loves me on the 94 Tony Awards.

[B]

Do it again. Do it again.

[A]

When they're doing the. They're announcing the lineup for best revival play. And. And Gwen Verdon goes. Damn Yankees. Carousel. And Gene Sample goes. She Loves Me.

[B]

That's a niche impression.

[A]

She loves.

[B]

She loves.

[A]

She loves me. And then the final one is who's Afraid of Virginia Woolf? It's a good lineup.

[B]

Also. Wow. Wow.

[A]

And I've got. I already know that Rob Schneider is going to be on it, but I'm first corralling some people who either haven't been on the podcast before or haven't been on in a while getting their picks. And then I'm squeezing Rob W. Schneider into whatever the fuck I want.

[B]

That's. Hey, listen, I've heard that a lot. This is great. What a great list.

[A]

I'm very pleased.

[B]

Yeah, this is really. How did you pick these?

[A]

I went through and I was like, what do I want to talk about for nine hours a piece of.

[B]

Wow, these are great.

[A]

Let me. So quickly. All that jazz. Brilliant, brilliant, brilliant film. Everyone should know it. Everyone should love it. Cabaret, also a masterpiece.

[B]

And the stage version, the original.

[A]

The stage version. The stage version of Cabaret will probably go among the three different versions.

[B]

Great. Genius.

[A]

Was it you I was talking to? No, it was David Chase I was talking to about how they were doing a production of Cabaret and he asked John Kander, like, which version do you like the most? Or like, of all three versions, like, what do you. Which ones do you. What do you think each version got right and not right?

[B]

Oh, wow.

[A]

And, like, do you want us to blend it together? And he said yes. And they sort of found a way to combine all three.

[B]

I'd love to hear what that was.

[A]

Oh, yeah. Chicago, the movie. I picked because I think the movie is perfect.

[B]

Yes, it is.

[A]

I. I really love the podcast Blank Check. And I get mad when those very sweet, straight, indoor boys throw at shade. And I'm like, you guys don't know what you're talking about. Movie, movie. People. Who? And it's not just them, but it's also like, the people in the big picture will throw shade at that movie because they're like Gangs of New York. I'm like, okay, okay, okay, calm down. We also had movie posters in our dorm rooms.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

No. Chicago is a perfect movie. And anyone who disagrees can eat every inch of my asshole. The Dream Girls stage show. Because I think that show is fire. It kind of falls apart in Act 2, but I want to talk about it. The Drowsy Chaperone. Perfect metamusical. And also, I am man in chair.

[B]

I played man and chair.

[A]

You are man in chair.

[B]

Oh, that's so sad.

[A]

This is our production of the Joshua. This is our site specific production of the Jozzy Chaperone. And, like, A Chorus Line. It'll be shut down tomorrow.

[B]

We. How have we gone nine hours and not mentioned this Chorus Line thing? But go ahead.

[A]

What's there to talk about? It's not happening.

[B]

That's true. Who?

[A]

God, they didn't get it. They didn't get it.

[B]

I saw season 10, desist 3. That made me laugh.

[A]

Really?

[B]

Well, so how did it get this watermark?

[A]

Well, they tried to do something for love.

[B]

And how, at no point did anybody be like, I don't think this is a good idea.

[A]

Well, not to say it's a bad idea.

[B]

I'm just saying, like, how did this a steak be like, hey.

[A]

Well, the irony is they're like, it's a site specific production of A Chorus Line.

[B]

In a Broadway theater.

[A]

No, in a dance studio.

[B]

That's not a specific production of A Chorus Line.

[A]

That's what I'm saying.

[B]

Sorry. Jesus.

[A]

The Chorus Line takes place in a theater. It's literally in the script.

[B]

They're not updating it, were they? Oh, God, you can't even update it. The lyrics don't make sense. If you update it.

[A]

Robert Kay. Robert Kolay.

[B]

My God, maybe that would be working for me. Yep, I'm here. Simon introduced.

[A]

My God. Oh, my God, the Steve McQueen. So sexy. Bob Goulet out Steve McQueen in if.

[B]

Troy Donahue Can Be a Movie Star.

[A]

Yeah, yeah. You can't. You can't put that in 2025. So this is actually the first non site specific production.

[B]

Of course Billy Porter can be a movie star. Can he though? Can he?

[A]

Okay. He is what he is.

[B]

How dare you. Continue.

[A]

Remember that. Continue Glass Menagerie. Because always makes me cry. It's a beautiful piece. I love the last revival. Go. Who is Sylvia? Because it was just. That's a play that I don't know well enough. And I really wanted it. The opportunity to know it. Great comment. Because I loved it off Broadway. I liked it on Broadway. And I kind of want to talk about why. Hedwig. Because Hedwig, How I Learned to Drive. One of my favorite plays. That's why I want to talk about her. Lenny the Piazza, one of my favorite things. And was like a formative musical for me, really. And that original production was so stunning. And I want to talk more about why. Especially because the encore production I found to be very cold and misguided. Not bad.

[B]

I didn't see it.

[A]

It wasn't bad, but it was cold and misguided and not as well, sunglasses as people like to think. And I want to talk about that more. Next normal. Because I think it's a beautiful, brilliant show. And we had the West End production just happen with the broadcast. And I want to talk about that. She loves me because it's a perfect show and I want to talk more about that. But I also have issues with the Roundabout revival recently, which David Chase, by the way, who did the 93 production, agreed with me on Just saying. And then who's Afraid of Virginia Woolf? Because it's a masterpiece and. Perfect.

[B]

This is great. This is fantastic. So will you pick, like, will every one of these things get discussed or you just put in a. Oh, wow.

[A]

There's gonna be an episode for each of them.

[B]

Wow, that's great. What a great list. Yeah. Shit. Okay.

[A]

I'm excited.

[B]

Cool. Okay.

[A]

My hole is wide open, baby. Okay. It's almost big enough for one of your fingers.

[B]

Remember, we're talking about the Tony Awards four hours ago.

[A]

You're the top.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

You're an arrow collar.

[B]

You're the top.

[A]

You're a Coolidge dollar. You're the nimble tread of the feet of Freddy. We actually got through all the sub stack questions.

[B]

Great.

[A]

Any thing in particular about, like, winners that you really loved? Didn't love takeaways?

[B]

No, I would. I mean, listen, I. I'm happy that purpose won. I wish. I really wish it was. Oh, Mary. Just because, like, I'm like, come on, guys. Like, celebrate comedy. Comedy is so tricky. Comedy so difficult. Like, no offense to the people that do drama, but I'm like, come on, man. A comedy, well, that's fucking hard.

[A]

And somebody was like, listen, purpose is very funny. And I went like, actually, some of the best dramas are funny.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

Who's Afraid of Virginia Woolf? Is hilarious.

[B]

Hysterical. Hysterical.

[A]

Oh, my God. Streetcar Named Desire makes me laugh. Good top. No, but we talked about this with Angels in America. Like, that shows fucking funny. And you need that humor because it disarms you before it goes in for the kill.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And I do think purpose has a lot of jokes in it, but I ultimately found purpose to be interesting. Nuanced, but also it needed another draft.

[B]

Yeah. Oh, Mary for me, would have been a big win for. Important win for a couple of reasons. One, not only because, yes, it's queer and all that wonderful stuff, but I'm just like, comedy. Like, fucking respect comedy. You know what this motherfucker did?

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

This person sat in their room one day and said, what if Mary Todd Lincoln's a cabaret star?

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And. And created this brilliant fucking fantasia. No. No pun.

[A]

Well, it's not on national themes because she doesn't know what a nation is.

[B]

No, that's. That is true. That is. And just was like, and this is what it's gonna be. And everybody gets on board. Yeah. In this bizarre. To me, I'm like, come and it's fucking funny.

[A]

It's fucking funny. It's. Yes. Because your parents were siblings. It's so. It's so dumb. It's so delightful. Listen, I know people who were underwhelmed by it, and I get that it's. It's hard to maintain prestige when you have nothing but buzz around you.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

Eventually the hype will kill you.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

But also, this show has maintained relevancy and success for a year.

[B]

They've done an amazing job.

[A]

A straight play did that.

[B]

That's the other thing, friends. A straight fucking play did that.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And not a drama.

[A]

No.

[B]

Not the fucking Ferryman or some, you know, like, nine hour.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Epic drama. This is literally a comedy.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

That has sustained itself for this long. This is the little engine that could.

[A]

And again, purpose one, they have their flowers, and nothing we say or do will take that away from them. So it's more of us talking up to Tony voters right now and begging them. Because I had this conversation with people at parties where I'm like, but what did you enjoy? What is, like, on. What is on the pulse? What Is of the moment. What are people excited about? And while I think a lot of voters are patting themselves on the back for voting for purpose, I don't. I do think that we are going to look back on this season historically and go, oh, the cultural play didn't win. The thing that overcame a lot of side eye and skepticism in a. That still managed to flourish the first year of an administration that is actively trying to dismantle queer rights, trans rights, that is trying to banish drag everywhere. And this show was like, fuck you. Look how much money we're making. How all the awards we got, the. The, the reviews we got.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

That people are. Are banging down our door to see us. Like, that's important and amazing. All while not saying to the world, look how important amazing we are. Just being like, want to have fun.

[B]

And I think that is so important. It's so important, so necessary.

[A]

Absolutely.

[B]

That's. That's my thing. Like Tony voters, please, next year. Comedies are just as hard to write and perform and direct and design as dramas, if not more so.

[A]

Yeah. I would also beg that of Oscar.

[B]

Voters, but I know that's a whole other.

[A]

Yeah, that's a losing battle.

[B]

Oscar. Oscar voters. No, Oscar voters is how much can you cry and throw yourself against the wall? Oh, great. We'll love that.

[A]

How much World War II can we have?

[B]

They want to see the acting. They do. They want to see it.

[A]

They really do. Which I would also argue there's been a lot of talk about this year. It's acting I want to. It's acting I want to see and go. That was acting. Acting.

[B]

Yeah. You mean in the Tony Awards?

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Oh, yeah. Show me act. Show it to me.

[A]

Yep.

[B]

Nothing subtle.

[A]

No.

[B]

Well, like you said with Stranger things, like that set for Hills of California was fabulous.

[A]

It was art. Yeah.

[B]

But no, give me the flashing and the lights in the.

[A]

Give me all the money.

[B]

So I know what it is.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

So I know what a set design is.

[A]

Ironically, with choreography, they have been guilty of awarding most choreography a lot. But there are a couple choreographers who have yet to be nominated who tend to do most like. No, not saying who.

[B]

That's curious.

[A]

Maybe their reputations precede them.

[B]

Oh, I think I know who you're talking about. Okay. Yeah. I got stories about him. Them.

[A]

I don't even know if we're talking about the same person.

[B]

I think we are. Oh, no. I was saying. Oh, no.

[A]

That person's won. That person has won a ton.

[B]

They did.

[A]

They did.

[B]

They did.

[A]

And yes, I have stories about them, too.

[B]

Yeah, yeah, that. That one's a. That's a jack off. The other one you're talking about.

[A]

Also jack off.

[B]

Also jack off. And dull.

[A]

Bad does bad work.

[B]

Like, the first one, I'm like, well, you're an. But at least I can watch this.

[A]

You've done good work in the past.

[B]

Yes, I can watch this. The other one, I'm like, you're an asshole. And your work's not good.

[A]

You're an a. He's an asshole.

[B]

He's an asshole.

[A]

She's an asshole. They're an asshole. We're trying to throw all the pronouns out because we really don't want anyone to know who we're talking about. This is what I will say. If you've been in the room where it happens, you most likely know two of the three names we're talking about.

[B]

And I bet you anything people are going, oh, it has to be this. And it's somebody we're not even. Not even thinking about.

[A]

Someone's like, it has to be Michael Bennett. And it's like, the Sweetie. Yes, but she's dead.

[B]

Yes, I remember.

[A]

Okay, Leroy, but listen, being an asshole is nothing new. The Broadway is littered with assholes. We still got them. But. But to be an asshole and not do great work.

[B]

That's the thing. You can be an asshole.

[A]

I'd rather you not be.

[B]

I know, same. And be a genius.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Or you can be a really good person and maybe the work isn't the best. Like, you can be one of the. But to be an asshole whose work is bad. Yeah, Fuck off.

[A]

Yeah. That's when, like, why are you wasting my time?

[B]

Why are you.

[A]

Like, why?

[B]

What is wrong with you?

[A]

Exactly.

[B]

Like, aren't you happy? Can't you be happy?

[A]

Exactly. Tom Hanks.

[B]

Yeah. Tom Hanks is a real asshole. Nicest man who ever lived.

[A]

Famously biggest asshole of all time.

[B]

Bigger asshole than Jimmy Stewart. Can you imagine? Jimmy?

[A]

Steven.

[B]

God, you know, I hate It's a Wonderful Life.

[A]

Of course you do.

[B]

Is that okay to say?

[A]

Well, you're pro assisted suicide.

[B]

You're pro Israel.

[A]

Yes. It's a Wonderful Life.

[B]

Pro assisted. It's a Wonderful Life of Fantasia on Euthanasia. Yeah. This wasn't like, one man by himself. I'm like, how did this all go down?

[A]

All the way down.

[B]

Oh, that was a rough one. All the way down.

[A]

Yeah. Oh, wait, what are you talking about?

[B]

Cats.

[A]

Oh, I thought you were about to play all the way.

[B]

Oh, the LBJ one. Yeah, I saw that.

[A]

I did, too.

[B]

Do you like It. No, see, I'm a political science mate. I was a political science major, so I just love, like, these political plays.

[A]

So you did love Boop then.

[B]

I loved Boop. It was.

[A]

And you loved Smoosh.

[B]

And I love Smoosh. And I love. I can't wait for the Dwight Eisenhower music musical at some point.

[A]

I can't wait. I do believe by the time this episode comes out, Smoosh will have announced. Will have announced.

[B]

I heard. Well, never mind.

[A]

We can tell me off mic. The word I was told was that Chess's has a Schubert theater for a show that's yet to be announced, but it's not Smoosh's theater.

[B]

Oh, really?

[A]

Well, the Schuberts are planning on doing a renovation on the Imperial. Whether that's after Smoosh. Whether that's after Smoosh or after another show, who's to say? But that is the plan.

[B]

Interesting.

[A]

But yes. Choose has. They don't. I don't know if the theater is locked and loaded, but I believe it is.

[B]

Wow. Okay. Okay.

[A]

And Cats is coming in, to wit.

[B]

To Circle in the Square.

[A]

No, they're going into a theater owned by the MAGA guy.

[B]

Oh, really?

[A]

Yes. The show has not announced yet.

[B]

Okay, okay. And Rag Times at Lincoln Center. Okay, cool.

[A]

For. You know. Because that's where Lear's at now. Makes sense. It's called Synergy.

[B]

Mm. And then is there anything.

[A]

There's no sin in synergy.

[B]

I heard something that was at Manhattan Theater Club last year. Might be coming in this year.

[A]

Eureka Day.

[B]

No Purpose.

[A]

No Purpose is on Broadway right now.

[B]

The women. The women.

[A]

They were summer 1976.

[B]

No shit. Not that one.

[A]

Josh's African Hair braiding.

[B]

No, there's something else. Damn it.

[A]

Was it off Broadway?

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Primary Troost. No, that was Roundabout. The Brooklyn Laundry.

[B]

No, damn it. There was something coming in from Manhattan Theater Club.

[A]

Oh, Liberation.

[B]

That's it.

[A]

Fuck, yeah.

[B]

Yes, that's coming in.

[A]

Fuck, yes.

[B]

I heard. I heard that was coming.

[A]

If that's coming in. I'm just so happy.

[B]

Yeah. That I heard was coming in.

[A]

I can't wait.

[B]

Kowalski's coming in?

[A]

Well, they say it's coming in.

[B]

I'm curious. I had no idea that was such a big thing.

[A]

A friend of the POD told me that they have their theater, which is. I don't think it's a thing. Apparently they have a name attached, but I don't.

[B]

Different than the actors who are in it now.

[A]

Yes, there's a name. There's a name who I believe is going to be playing Tennessee Williams.

[B]

Oh, okay, great.

[A]

Take it with a grain of salt, because things change all the time.

[B]

I know.

[A]

And. And anything can happen. But that was what I was made to understand, was that the name was going to play Tennessee. And we'll see how that. That goes.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Cool. Very cool. Okay, great.

[A]

Yeah. Well, we shall see. And Lost Boys is going into the palace.

[B]

Oh, my God, I forgot that's even a thing.

[A]

Arden's gonna have two shows back to back. He has.

[B]

Good for him.

[A]

He has Queen of versailles at the St. James and then Lost Boys at the.

[B]

I love him. He's great. He can do whatever he wants at this point. Yeah, let him.

[A]

Rob. Final thoughts on the Tony wins this year.

[B]

Oh, Matt, first of all, thank you so much for having me. I so wish I could have been with all of you to enjoy, experience the joy of the Tony Awards.

[A]

I don't know if you would have loved it.

[B]

Why?

[A]

I had a blast. But I imagine you. I imagine you loving it for an hour and then having a moment where you go, I think I'd rather be at home now.

[B]

I'm a homebody.

[A]

I know you and I are very similar. We love being alone. We're good with other people, but it takes a lot out of us.

[B]

Yeah. I don't know. I just, like. Kind of just like. Like sitting at home, chilling on the sofa. I mean, I missed everybody because I love everybody that was there.

[A]

I'm surprised you let me see you as often as you do.

[B]

What does that mean?

[A]

Considering, like, you and I. You and I both enjoy our alone time, but I find that I'll be like, hi. Hi. Hi, Hi. Can we hang out? And you just let me.

[B]

Yeah. I like you. Why wouldn't I want to hang out with you?

[A]

Because I'm a lot. And you. And you like your alone time.

[B]

No, no, no, no, no, no, no, no. Like, that's different. That's different. You're not. You're not. He's not a lot friends, by the way. He's not a lot. You're smart. You're opinionated in a good way. Not. That's not opinionated in a pejorative sense. You're smart, you're opinionated, and you're funny.

[A]

Oh. Actually, people asked this once in a. In a. In a Q A, and I couldn't answer because I didn't have anybody here for it. What would you say, as a friend of mine, having seen me in private in the wild?

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

What is a misconception you think people might have of me as a person. And then what is something that might surprise them about me as a friend?

[B]

Oh, what a great question. Well, first of all, you're very warm and you're very giving. Like, there's no. There's no pun intended, friends. There's no. Like, there's no.

[A]

I have a very warm and giving apple pie.

[B]

No, it's gross.

[A]

No, man, I didn't make a pie last night. I wish you could.

[B]

Yeah, I wish I could have had some. No, you're. No, you're very warm and very friendly. I probably. I'm assuming. And I could be totally wrong, I'm assuming because, like, you're so erudite and intellectual, like, when you're on the podcast, I'm assuming a lot of people will probably construe that as, oh, he's probably cold or standoffish or maybe, like, there's a sense of superiority because he's so smart. But that's totally not the case. You're very. No, you're very. Yeah, I think that would pro. And I'm not. I'm not like. Like, I know you as a friend. I don't know you as a listener, so I can't be like, oh, I'm assuming that's what the perception is. But I would assume that when you're as smart as you are, that some people might be. They might misconstrue that as, like, oh, he's cold, or he's standoffish. Not. Not the case at all.

[A]

Thank you. Yeah, I definitely get that sometimes from. Sometimes from listeners, sometimes from people on Instagram. I get told sometimes in dms, like, oh, I saw you at a show, but I was too nervous to. To approach you because, like, I. I thought I might say something stupid. I was like, go ahead.

[B]

No, no, no. And also, I think because you are so smart, your mind is always working. So I think that if somebody sees you out and about, I think they're probably going, oh, he looks like he doesn't want to be bothered, or he looks like he's not enjoying himself. And I. No, no, seriously.

[A]

No, no.

[B]

I'm just guessing.

[A]

No, I. My.

[B]

My face often looks angry, and so I think probably. And so to me, that would probably be the biggest, like, misconception about you. Sure. That would probably surprise people. But I'll be honest with you. I didn't know Matt very long, and he was like, what are you doing for your birthday? And I was like, well, probably nothing, because I'm not a big, like, birthday celebrator. And he was. And Matt was kind enough to ask me what my favorite cake was, and he made me a cake. Like, that's. That's. That's something that somebody that's warm and friendly does. That's not this. That's not somebody that's cold and austere or anything like that.

[A]

Yeah. No. You were like, I'll probably do nothing. And I said, that's unacceptable.

[B]

He did say that was unacceptable.

[A]

I said, what's your favorite cake? And then we got some of your friends together.

[B]

He did. He was. Yeah.

[A]

We had a party at your place twice two years ago. So. Yeah.

[B]

So friends. So just. So if I would say that's probably, like, the. I don't. But that's the thing. I don't know what a misconception about you is, because I only know you.

[A]

As a friend, would you say that's the thing that would surprise people about me?

[B]

Then I would say so. That you're probably a lot warmer and softer than I think people give credit. I mean, listen, when you do a show like this, where it's. It's not criticizing to, like, knock somebody down, because there are a lot of shows that do that and that drive me up the wall. I don't listen to any of those. This is to say, this is such a powerful, wonderful art form. We can do better. That comes from a place of great love.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And so that means you have a very open heart. This isn't like, you know, oh, I'm gonna. I'm gonna sit here and. On everything. Because I don't like it. It's. No, this is a wonderful thing. And I want everybody to feel the same magic I once felt. Can we all get on the same page? That's a beautiful thing.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

So I think. So I think that also might be a misconception. Some people might go, oh, you know, it's a snarky. Whatever. Whatever. It doesn't come from a place. I mean, maybe there is snarkiness to it, but, like, it comes from a place of. I love this so much, and I want everyone to experience the same love that I feel. To me, that's not a negative thing.

[A]

I think that's very fair and very sweet, and I disagree with all of it. Thank you. I. That's.

[B]

Now, here are some misconceptions about him that aren't misconceptions. Let me be. And. And what would mine be? That, you know, I'm taller in person.

[A]

No one would ever think that. Well, yes, that. The thing about you, Rob, that's wild to me. And we'll wrap things up very shortly because now we're no longer talking about the Tony words, but we are wrapping up, up a long stretch of Broadway breakdown, so. Oh, you know, we're, we're, we're winding down from the season. We're winding down the pod for a second as I take a hiatus. So I like to sort of get it all out. You and I have only known each other for a little under two years.

[B]

Yeah, that's true.

[A]

That's crazy to me.

[B]

That is true.

[A]

And I've told you this many a time. We've spent many a night at rob's apartment watching YouTube and.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

Eating takeout and.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

And drinking.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

Until like three in the morning.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

And we've said to each other, like, it's crazy that I haven't known you as long as I've known other people because I feel like you and I clicked very fast.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

In a way that didn't feel weird. It was just sort of like, I get you. I. I know you. I understand you. You're. You're, you're. You're now like one of my people. And, like, I just like, genuinely enjoy hanging out with you. And I always feel a little territorial when we're at parties together because I'll not see you for like three months. And then we'll be at a party, like Patrick and Steve's party, and like, we'll be talking to somewhere. Like, you'll be talking to someone and I'll just like, come across the room, like, and they just come right into your.

[B]

I love it.

[A]

I just like, start hugging you in front of somebody else as they're talking to you. And I think people who don't know us either assume I always wrap my.

[B]

Arm around you too. I know I'm never like, get the fuck away.

[A]

Yeah, no, you never do. But I think people who don't know us either see that and assume we're a couple or fuck buddies or that I'm a very territorial friend. And the truth is that I'm the latter. If I'm anything but. I'm not even that. I just sort of like, it's sort of, hey, I'm about to go to there in 30 seconds. But for 30 seconds.

[B]

I love it.

[A]

It's just when you, when you have favorite people in this world, it's like, it's. It's not a hardship to be like, Hey, 30 second hug. I'm going over there now.

[B]

I love it. Listen, it literally always puts a Smile on my face. I think probably the reason, like, we. We probably click so well is because we both have the same knowledges and passion. And like, we. We collect the same useless. Not useless information. We collect the same. It's pretty useless. The same useless information. So, like, for. For Matt to be like, oh, yeah, well, I've got these four Hal Prince books on my shelf. I'm like, oh, I bet you I can name all four. Do you know what I mean? And that's kind of. So what's nice in a friendship like that is it's like you. You both are coming at it with a shared history that you both gained independently. And I think that's kind of. Of that's kind of cool.

[A]

Yeah. I think that's how real connections are made. And that's why I'm so happy that listeners are on the Discord Channel, finding each other and talking to each other.

[B]

That is so important.

[A]

It's really cool. And I'm really. And I. I actually had someone message me about the Discord Channel today as we were recording. Looking at the messages about people being, like, confused about the substack and what that's going to be and, oh, do I have to learn a new thing? I. You. I don't want to do that. And I'm. I totally hear everybody about that. But, like, I don't want anyone to feel overwhelmed. I'm not taking away any avenues for people. I love that listeners have found each other. That was the whole reason why we started the Discord Channel. Yeah. It's just. That's sort of what makes me go from cynical to warmed in, like, a heartbeat. Right. Because I. I genuinely love theater and I love Broadway. I don't always love the community. Because now that you and I both have seen how the sausage gets made. A lot.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And we see a lot of people who make the sausage.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And not everyone's great. No, not everyone does great, but sometimes they do. And. And a lot of people do mean well. And you want to believe that we're all in it because we genuinely love it. And so that, like, when you see some. When you see a kindred spirit, where it's like, we both love this, we both believe in this. And, you know, even if we don't always agree, we can talk about in a way where it's like, safe space. I felt this, you felt this, and we can just sort of chat it out. And you're so smart and you're so articulate with a voice that sounds sexy when you're Playing Robert Goulet. That.

[B]

Thank you.

[A]

Is not a hardship. Talking to you, baby.

[B]

God love you.

[A]

You do Robert Goulet and I do Jennifer Simard's Sex Frog.

[B]

We could. Listen, we could. We could take this whole act on the road and think about very quickly, like, what you've created with your discord and with your substacks and stuff like that. Hopefully, I'm using these terms correctly, because substack meant something different on my day at the Eagle. Just get another one off the stack.

[A]

That sub is pretty stacked.

[B]

That stack is pretty stacked. You've created a community of people that love this, and I think that. Listen, very quickly. This is his last compliment, and I promise there's a lot of people out there that have podcasts. There's a lot of people out there who want to talk about Broadway, but there's a lot of people that don't do it with intelligence, that don't do it with the history behind them. And I think that's what makes your show stand out from everybody else's, which is. It's actually. It's. It's. It's critical in the best way possible, which is it's holding people onto a higher standard. But two, it's coming from a place of extreme intelligence. You're not just some random fan that's like, I love newsies. And so now everything that I mean about newsies, you. That's great.

[A]

Or like, so you have met my grandmother.

[B]

Or like, I saw I'll make it up. I saw Picture Frame the Musical, and it was the best brilliant thing ever. No, it wasn't. It was a musical, but it was the most brilliant thing. There's such a need of, like, immediate joy like this. It's not good. It was perfect.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Everyone gets so territorial about these adjectives. And what I love about you is you're like, hey, hey, hey, hey.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

What does perfect really mean? Yeah, like, breathe and look, explore and listen.

[A]

We make jokes.

[B]

I think that's healthy.

[A]

We make jokes about my love of Sally Murphy and Judy Kuhn. And I do love them. But, like, I can also name you some performances I've seen them give that were not my favorites, and they are not actually my personality. My personality is constantly coming back to them as, like, punchlines of my obsession. I don't have nine headshots of Judy Kuhn. I would be embarrassed to say that I was on a zoom call today.

[B]

Where, with Judy Keen, your lawyer, Judy.

[A]

Kuhn would not be on. On camera. She refuses to make eye contact with me. Anymore. No, I was on. I was on a Zoom call today and somebody was pitching like, well, why don't you go into your storage unit, like, digitize your playbills that you collect? And I went, all of my playbills. And they're like, well, yeah, like, how many do you have? Like, a hundred silence. 200 silence. 400 silence. And then she goes, matt, how many do you have? And I go, I'm not proud of this. No.1 Tony win tonight. Last night, that you really were thrilled by.

[B]

Oh, Sam Pinkleton and was number one for me.

[A]

You stole that from me.

[B]

Hands down.

[A]

Loved that.

[B]

Hands down.

[A]

So happy about that. I. Okay. If I can't have Sam Francis. Jew for also great. Thrilled. So happy.

[B]

So Sam Francis, Michael, the three of them, I was like, this feels really good.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

I mean, everybody else I love, but like, those three especially just did something where I'm like, that's it.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Well, it's been a good season.

[A]

It's been a very good season.

[B]

And congratulations on all the wonderful things that's happening to this podcast. This is exactly what should be happening, happening.

[A]

And congrats on your wonderful season at J2 Spotlight.

[B]

Oh, thanks, man.

[A]

I have spoken highly of Smile and Zorba, and I could not see dread to the coot because I was. I was in London.

[B]

You're in London.

[A]

I was in London.

[B]

You were in London a lot. I feel like twice in a year.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

Which I. I Wish it was 10.

[B]

But yeah, it's so great over there.

[A]

It's. I love it there.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And we had a really, really good lineup of shows this past time.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Yeah. Better than last year. Robert, where can people find you if you want them to find you?

[B]

Oh, my God. My Instagram is robwschneider and my website is www.robwschneider.com.

[A]

If you want to find me, I'm on Instagram attcoplock. Usual spelling. You can find the subs. You've been on this podcast so many times. I always say that.

[B]

I know. It always makes me laugh.

[A]

The usual spelling, if you want to. I will have the links for the substack and the Discord channel in. In this episode. Description. If you like the podcast, give us a nice five star rating and review. I hope this episode was delightful for you guys. It was delightful for us. I know we went off topic so many times. I'm sorry. No, I don't fcking care. Like, I. This is. This is the one time where I'm like, I don't care. How long it is. I don't care how off tangents we go, because I've been very on topic for so many weeks and I think I just finally cracked. And I am with, like, one of my best friends who I love speaking to, and it's like, I'm sorry, this is. We had a great time. We had a lot. We had a lot of jokes.

[B]

I love you. I know that.

[A]

I don't remember a single thing we said. I just remember laughing so much tonight. So.

[B]

Hey, listen, that's half the battle.

[A]

It's half the battle.

[B]

That's half the battle.

[A]

I think I made you laugh a few times.

[B]

You did make me laugh a few times. What do you think? You know, you make me laugh. You know, I think you're funny.

[A]

Well, yes, but I think it's because I'm so beautiful. You're so surprised anytime I say anything slightly funny that you just go, oh, my God. Knock, knock. Yes.

[B]

No, that's not it. Helen R. It's so good. It's so good.

[A]

I was doing it all last night.

[B]

Does Jen Simard listen to this?

[A]

No.

[B]

God.

[A]

She did say hi to me on the Golden Girls podcast. Patrick had her give me a shout out.

[B]

I'm obsessed.

[A]

Yeah, she went. She said, hi, Matt.

[B]

I want a shout out from Jen Simard.

[A]

Well, show up at the next Tony party and Patrick will remember you.

[B]

I am sorry that my ceiling caved in.

[A]

We joke because we love.

[B]

We do. I love you.

[A]

Last one, last one. Say Helen again.

[B]

Helen.

[A]

To do it Earnest. I need to do it Earnest.

[B]

That's it. That's it. That's it.

[A]

I need to do it Earnest I need to do it Earnest. We can't close out with Jenna because we closed out with her last week. Who can we close out with as our diva today? Don't look so scared.

[B]

Right. Wait, does it have to be a female contemporary or classic?

[A]

Whoever you want. I mean, we've had, I think, two males in the past, but we try not to.

[B]

Lilia Swipe.

[A]

Yes. Love it.

[B]

Lilia Swipe.

[A]

It's gonna rain on my parade.

[B]

That's it.

[A]

That's it. Before Cynthia Erivo's battle cry in Wicked, there was Lillia Sweit's parade.

[B]

Lilia Swight walked so Cynthia Rivo could run those tits.

[A]

Before Jennifer Simard's tits were barely supported by her costume. Death becomes her. Lily is white in that pink dress in the Fighting Girl concert was like, hold my cleavage.

[B]

Are those. Can I ask a horrible question? Sure. In Death becomes her. Are those gens they're her real.

[A]

They're her real chesticles obsessed.

[B]

Wow.

[A]

According to Patrick, she is taped in for Jesus.

[B]

Love it.

[A]

But they. The way that the costume is designed, they want you to think she's barely contained by it, but she is truly strapped in.

[B]

So good.

[A]

Yeah, it's so good. Another reason why Paul won because, like, genius design.

[B]

Oh, listen, as soon as she came, not. Not her. The. Michelle.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Williams. Is that her name?

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

As soon as she can. No, not Michelle Williams.

[A]

In the bedazzled vagina.

[B]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Soon as she came, I was like, that's it.

[A]

Yeah, she won.

[B]

That's it.

[A]

They put a hole in Jennifer Simard. They put a hole in Jennifer Simard.

[B]

Honey. I put a hole in somebody once. But Michael Bennett did, and that was Edwin Booth. His brother John later went on to fame for something. I don't remember. Ah, yes. He was in the first road company of Blossom Time. That's what he's remembered for.

[A]

I myself went on to do Bloomer Girl.

[B]

I did the original choreography for the Civil War Ballet. It was taught to me by Agnes DeMille and a little person who was intoxicated on schnapps. We don't have hojos anymore, and I really wish we did. They had wonderful flapjacks.

[A]

And on that note, we're closing out Lilias White. Thank you so much for listening, everybody. Enj, We've got the review episode coming out in the next few days. And after that, enjoy your summer hiatus from us. We know it's been long. I hope it's been delightful. I've enjoyed it. Have a good one. Take it away, Lilius. Bye.

[B]

My drum.

[A]

And if I f out, you're turning back, sir. At least I didn't fake it, sir. I guess I didn't make it.

[B]

Get ready for me, love. Cause I'm a. I simply gotta march my heart to trouble Nobody know nobody.