THE 25TH ANNUAL PUTNAM COUNTY SPELLING BEE w/ Todd Buonopane

Summary

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Podcast Summary: Broadway Breakdown

Episode: THE 25TH ANNUAL PUTNAM COUNTY SPELLING BEE w/ Todd Buonopane

Date: June 29, 2023
Host: Matt Koplik
Guest: Todd Buonopane (Original Broadway Cast: Spelling Bee, Broadway/TV Actor)

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Episode Overview

This episode takes a deep, joyful, and hilarious dive into The 25th Annual Putnam County Spelling Bee, featuring Broadway performer Todd Buonopane, a member of the original cast. Host Matt Koplik and Todd blend irreverent humor and genuine admiration as they explore the developmental history, structure, emotional nuance, cultural impact, and legacy of Spelling Bee, all filtered through Matt’s signature “opinionated, foul-mouthed, and passionate” lens.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

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1. Opening Banter & Spelling Bee’s Reputation

• [00:00 - 06:20]
  • Matt introduces Todd with playful irreverence, discussing Todd’s Broadway debut in Spelling Bee and the unique “club” status of its original company.
  • Quote:
    "It's one of those special things where an entire original company just, like, has that stank on them that in the best possible way—like you walk around forever touched with this show..." – Matt [03:18]
  • Todd highlights the collaborative, actor-driven nature of creation: “Spelling Bee was written by and around the people that did it originally...they really owned these characters.” [04:08]

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2. Development & Collaboration

• [04:29 - 06:20]
  • The show’s origin as an improv/sketch project ("Crepuscule") and how it was shaped in the Berkshires, with actors’ personalities fused into the characters.
  • “Do your own thing. And that’s kind of rare on Broadway…” – Todd [05:29]
  • Contrast with shows like Phantom, where replacements must repeat “exact moments”.

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3. The Ethic of Kindness & Critique in Theatre

• [14:09 - 18:40]
  • Matt and Todd discuss criticism, the vulnerability of artists, and learning from failure.
  • “No one tries to make a bad show...Even the greats have had some clunkers.” – Matt [14:08]
  • Todd’s favorite review: "Some of the most talented people creating theater today have made a show that does not work. Let’s discuss why.” (Vincent Canby on Parade) [17:59]

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4. Spelling Bee’s Structure & Emotional Balance

• [20:29 - 22:14]
  • Spelling Bee as “a comedy about sad people”—requiring sensitivity to both its goofiness and its sincere emotional arcs.
  • Quote:
    "The sadness of it makes you care about it, as opposed to being a stupid sitcom that just is, like, making jokes for joke’s sake." – Todd [20:32]

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5. The Kids: Character Arcs & Key Moments

[23:03 - 66:09]

Each speller has a distinct arc:

• Olive Ostrovsky:
  • Her emotional core, absent parents, "I Love You Song" as a gut-punch [63:02].
  • Quote:
    “You did this thing for you, and I wasn’t even a thought in your head...But she still loves her parents.” – Matt [64:34]
• Leaf Coneybear:
  • Homeschooled outcast; gains self-esteem through the Bee [67:46].
  • “This is the day his self-esteem began.” – Todd [73:04]
• Logainne Schwartzandgrubenierre:
  • The pressure from her dads; learning she can fail, return, and success does not define her worth [87:14].
  • “She needs to achieve for herself and not for other people because she has so much stress.” – Todd [87:14]
• Marcy Park:
  • The perfectionist who learns her own agency—not just to please others [93:39].
  • Quote:
    “Marcy has almost an entire personality awakening.” – Todd [92:21]
• William Barfée:
  • Social outcast with defensive walls, becomes vulnerable and open by the end [49:41].
  • “You have to choose to repel the audience. This kid has been so picked on…that he now puts up this wall.” – James Lapine’s note to Todd [49:04]
• Chip Tolentino:
  • Puberty-induced downfall, and acceptance of his own imperfection [105:12 – 112:19].

Signature Emotional Moments

• Sentimental highlight: Olive’s “I Love You Song” stuns the audience, moving from laughter to tears.
  • “It earns it...it’s rare that a show can really surprise you like that.” – Todd [65:07]
• The show’s “delicate” balance: playing comedy with truthful vulnerability so the emotion lands (“a competition about sad people”).

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6. The Adults: Anchoring & Satire

• Rona Lisa Peretti (warm, achievement-obsessed prior winner)
• Douglas Panch (suppressed rage, obsession with Rona, provides comedic tension) [123:37]
• Mitch Mahoney (the “comfort counselor”/parolee, only Black character: race & optics problem discussed frankly by Todd) [114:07].
  • “If Mitch is your only Black character, then you have a bit of a problem.” – Todd [114:57]

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7. Audience Participation: The Spelling Bee Experience

• [39:14 - 45:22]
  • Audience guests as spellers; secret “fake word” (Caterjunes) to remove last guest [40:00]
  • Unpredictable live moments, shenanigans with celebrities (Julie Andrews, national bee champions)
  • “It was really fun to be a part of.” – Todd on manipulating the chaos [41:17]
  • The infamous "adult nights" and their chaos—sometimes undermined the show’s emotional arc.

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8. Spelling Bee’s Broadway Run: Timeline & Legacy

• [27:24 - 34:08]
  • Fast track from Barrington Stage to Second Stage Off-Broadway, and then to Broadway.
  • The 2005 Tony race context (Spamalot, Dirty Rotten Scoundrels, Piazza, Spelling Bee)
  • Sold-out runs, star attendees, iconic Tony performance [36:30].
  • “Every night was different. No show was a better example of that than Spelling Bee.” – Todd [84:49]

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9. Understudies, Casting, and Broadway Culture

• [78:12 – 82:03]
  • Todd’s experience as understudy for multiple roles—rare approval to make the characters their own.
  • Tough “cool kids” culture; management’s resistance to putting understudies on, contrasted with fans’ loyalty.
  • “Our spelling bee fans were very loyal to everybody.” – Todd [77:02]

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10. William Finn, James Lapine, and Craft

• [135:46 - 137:21]
  • Finn’s musical intelligence best serving “verbal, smart, but immature” characters; Spelling Bee’s score as a perfect marriage.
  • Lapine’s directness as a director; his unique ability to direct young performers honestly [47:39, 49:04].
  • “The best piece of direction I’ve ever gotten in my life.” – Todd on Lapine [47:51]

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

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On the Show’s Heart

"Everyone’s temptation is to just do it like it’s an SNL sketch... You have to make them care about these characters without them knowing that’s happening." – Todd [12:50]

On Criticism & Theatrical Growth

"If you think all your choices are perfect, you’re never gonna grow, you’re never gonna get better, you’re never gonna make the kind of art that’s bold and interesting." – Matt [18:40]

On Character Specificity

"You have to choose to repel the audience. This kid has been so picked on in his life that he now puts up this wall..." – James Lapine (to Todd), quoted by Todd [49:04]

On Audience Participation

"There was a fake word in the show... Caterjunes. Which is not a word. As long as it is a possible spelling, you would say, 'That is correct.' And everyone on stage would give the look of like, 'Oh no, what do we do?'" – Todd [40:16]

On the Show’s Lasting Impact

"It’s still the longest running show at Circle in the Square." – Matt [162:34]

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Timestamps for Important Segments

| Timestamp | Segment / Topic | |---------------|------------------------------------------------------------| | 00:00–06:20 | Opening, Spelling Bee’s cast “club”, Todd’s Broadway debut | | 04:08–06:20 | Show’s collaborative creation, actor-driven process | | 14:09–18:40 | On kindness, reviews, learning from failure | | 22:14–23:42 | "Tiny events, big feelings" — What Spelling Bee is "about" | | 45:22–47:39 | On Lapine’s genius with children, specificity in direction | | 63:02–66:09 | Olive’s "I Love You Song," audience surprise | | 73:23–77:02 | Understudies, fan loyalty, Broadway culture | | 110:41–112:19 | Chip’s arc, humor of puberty, and "adult nights" | | 114:07–118:41 | Race, representation, and optics of the Mitch role | | 139:24–140:16 | Origins of the “Christina Ricci” lyric, comedy details | | 161:27–162:55 | Legacy, movie rights, longest Circle in the Square run |

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Final Reflections: Why Spelling Bee Endures

• The 25th Annual Putnam County Spelling Bee is a rare musical that mixes sharp comedy, profound emotional beats, and a genuinely collaborative ethos. The hosts credit the show's delicacy, actor-driven improvisation, and compassionate character arcs.
• Both Matt and Todd grapple with the show's legacy—the joyful unpredictability, its deep emotional impact ("crying homosexuals"), and the evolving conversations around casting and representation.
• Quote:
  "The show was drastically different every night. No show was a better example of that than Spelling Bee." – Todd [84:49]

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Episode Closing

• Todd promotes his upcoming cabaret shows (Provincetown, Fire Island; July 2023).
• Matt encourages listeners to rate/review the podcast.
• Closing diva: Karen Morrow (requested by Todd).

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If you’ve never seen Spelling Bee, what are you waiting for? Whether as an OBC superfan or a “DL” theatre lover, this episode offers everything: inside scoop, honest critique, and a love letter to a one-of-a-kind Broadway classic.

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Transcript

[A]

Miss Peretti, please spell syzygy. S, Y Z Y, G Y. Syzygy. We have a winner. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. At the 25th annual Putnam County Spelling Bee. My parents keep on telling me just being here is winning, although I know it isn't so. But it's a very nice, very, very nice. Very, very nice. Very nice beginning. Hello all you theater lovers both out and proud and on the DL. And welcome back to Broadway Breakdown, a podcast discussing the history und legacy of American theater's most exclusive address, Broadway. I'm your host, Matt Koplik, the least famous and most opinionated of all the Broadway podcasts. Host. And we're back from our Tony season doing the big move, covering shows that had such success off Broadway that they just had to transfer to the Great White Way and try some luck over there. And my guest today is a Broadway actor. I love him best on one of my favorite TV shows, playing my second favorite, Jeffrey after Steven Webber in Jeffrey. But my number one favorite, wiener slave. Please welcome Todd Buonapane. Hello. Hello, Todd.

[B]

Are you even old enough to have seen the movie Jeffrey?

[A]

Not in theaters, but I did see it. I have the play up there somewhere. I love that play. And that movie is. That movie's good. I think I like it so much because Steven Webber is so fuckable in it. Like. Like when he just shakes hands with the. His love interest in that. I'm like, fuck, fuck, fuck, fuck.

[B]

I. And that came out in, what, the late 90s or something?

[A]

Yeah, mid to late 90s.

[B]

I went to, like, Cambridge, where I grew up, near Boston. I remember, like, going to a fancy movie theater to see it. And nobody cared that straight people were playing. Gay people were just happy that there was something about gay people.

[A]

Absolutely.

[B]

I was at a Easter brunch recently with Brian Batt, and I only wanted to talk about Jeffrey.

[A]

Oh, I love that Brian Batt, who's one of my favorite forbidden Broadway performers of all time.

[B]

Amen.

[A]

Amen. I think he's the one who plays the little boy in the ragtime segment. In 1996, Garth Drabinski built a theater, New York, New York. He's so fucking funny. I'm so happy that he's just, like, bopping about in TV these days. Todd.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

What Broadway show are we talking about today?

[B]

We are Talking about the 25th annual Putnam County Spelling Bee.

[A]

Now, correct me if I'm wrong, you have experience with this show, correct?

[B]

It's. I was in the original Broadway cast. It's what I made my Broadway Debut in.

[A]

I mean, if you look up bragging rights in the dictionary, you'll see a screenshot of Todd right now on my.

[B]

Podcast being an offstage understudy, but in.

[A]

Like, a pretty fucking impactful show. Yeah, Yeah. I don't. I mean, listen, I remember seeing you in 30 Rock and be like, oh, my God, it's Todd from Spelling Bee. I don't know. Like, that. That whole original company, understudies included, y', all, like, are. It's one of those special things where an entire original company just, like, has that stank on them that in the. In the best possible way. Like, you walk around forever, like, touched with this show in the same way. Like, the original into the woods cast. Original. Like, Piazza cast. All of you guys. Just. It's one of those shows where, like, it's a club that feels super cool because it's cool. Yeah. I don't know. And I'm a very judgmental fag, and so I'm not. I'm not blowing smoke up your butt. I'm saying this truthfully. Like, I don't think there are that many original companies where that's the case. And, like, there are some amazing obcs also. That same season is Dirty Around Scoundrels, which has an amazing original Broadway cast. But I don't think people have the same feeling about it as they do with Spelling Bee. Maybe because so many people in Dirty Rotten were so established beforehand, and Spelling Bee launched a lot of your guys's Broadway careers.

[B]

I also think that Spelling Bee was written by and around the people that did it originally. You know, they were in the Berkshires creating these characters. Coney Bear's cape is something that Jesse Tyler Ferguson saw in a. In a window in the Berkshires and turned it into a cape. So, like, they really owned these characters.

[A]

And that's something I do want to talk about as we talk about the show is the development of it and the collaboration of it all. Do you listen to Office Ladies with Jenna Fisher? Great.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Jenna Fisher, Angela Kinsey. So I know I've mentioned it before. Sorry, guys, for repeating myself, but they talk about all the time on that show, how the collaborate, the collaborative process was always, best idea wins. Doesn't matter who it's from. It's not about ego. It's not about, well, I wrote it. I'm directing it. I'm the star. It's just like, if people would spitball, and sometimes, like, I know someone would try something and it wouldn't work. And it's like, let's go back to what we wrote, and that ended up being the right decision. Or sometimes it just, you know, ballooned from there. And just everything I've read and seen about the collaborative process of spelling bee and you can give us some more insider info about it, that's very much what it sounds like, is that, you know, it started with an idea, it got further developed, actors came in and had their own ideas, and everything just sort of gelled in this really beautiful way.

[B]

Yeah, it. You know, because you have to assign names to certain jobs, like, sure, book writer, composer, whatever. I think a lot of people did a lot of things. Mind you what, I came in a week before it started previews on Broadway. So I didn't change anything, per se. But even James said to me, came to an understatement rehearsal and was like, don't do what they're doing. Do your own thing. And that's kind of rare in Broadway if you. I mean, I don't want to call things out, but if you're an understudy, it close. I can talk about. If you're an understudy in Phantom, you have to lift your hand at that exact moment in that way, because that thing's a machine. And you have to do what the other people did. And, you know, you don't want to change up the tempo of the show, but they let you make the characters your own because that's what worked on that show. People being individuals.

[A]

Absolutely. That's sort of the thing that people don't talk about is with so many Broadway shows that run for so very long, again, part of it is a machine. Like, you don't want to disrupt the flow of too many people who are on stage who've been doing it a certain way. But also, as you said, like in Phantom or let's say, you know, Wicked or Mormon, sometimes you're told by management when you're getting put into it as a replacement or you're an understudy, it's like, okay, you gotta cock your head here and do this thing. I think, like, even Mandy Patinkin talked about this in Evita, where during. And the money kept rolling in, he had to get from one side of stage to the other. And Hal Prince Will wouldn't give him any direction. He was too busy figuring something out. So, like, on a whim, because he's Mandy and It was the 70s, so he was hopped up on cocaine. He was like, I'm gonna do a giant grand jete across the stage just for fucks and giggles and Halperns was like, yeah, keep it. And then that became the thing for every Che afterwards. And every Che afterwards was like, why am I doing this? And like, because it's what Mandy did. And it's like, well, yes, it made sense to Mandy, but it's not making sense to Anthony Crivello. And it's one of those things. I know I'm so gay for knowing that. That he was a fucking replacement.

[B]

Well, I do know he wanted Tony for Kiss of Spider Woman. Sure did. I win points for that.

[A]

I also knew that Anthony Crivello was a Che in Evita because at my old school, my old stomping ground, professional children's school. Thank you so much. Pour one out. The. What was called the Commons, which was, I think the sixth floor, where the high school lockers were. We had Broadway posters all over and we had, like, Debbie Allen and Sweet Charity. My. My baby Carousel was up there, but they had an Evita poster and it was Lonnie Ackerman on it. And the. The three actors. I don't remember who the Peron was. Fuck him. But it was Lonnie and it was Anthony Crivello. And I'm like, I'm sorry. Kiss of the Spider Woman man was in. Was in Evita.

[B]

Two things.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

Is there a bootleg of Lonnie Ackerman singing that score? Because I want to hear it.

[A]

Oh, honey.

[B]

Yes, because I. Lonnie Ackerman is. What about today? From Starting here, starting now. But I also saw Anthony Crivello in Phantom Sings the Hits, as I like to call it, which was the 90 minute Phantom in Vegas, where they give you none of the plot.

[A]

Nope.

[B]

But they will still sing all 13 minutes of all I Ask of you.

[A]

Oh, yeah.

[B]

And it was fun. But, like, I like the. What a way to run a business. I like that. That was just gone.

[A]

Well, because they. Well, I know they. They do. They did do the first notes, but they did only half of it because what they did the cut. No, sorry. What they. I remember. I'm so stupid. I only saw the Vegas Phantom once, and it was via video. But I just remember they went from those two fools who run my theater will be missing you. Ba da ba ba ba ba ba ba ba da ba da ba. I was like, oh, we're just cutting the whole. What's it fucking called? The Rope Lasso, with his magical lasso. Punjab lasso with. With Joseph Bouquet telling the ballet girls about it. And I'm like, that's fucking foreshadowing. Because he's Gonna die from it. And they just cut it. But that's also because the Book of Phantom is what it's. It's about a horny incel. Gaslighting and kidnapping the only virgin left in Paris. And yet people tell me I'm problematic for loving Carousel. I'm like, go fuck yourself.

[B]

I mean, okay, rip it employed a lot of my friends for a long time.

[A]

Sure. And it's an. I enjoyed my time every time I saw it.

[B]

I remember when I saw the tour when I was 14, and everybody in the audience starts weeping when Meg finds the mask at the end. And I'm like, what are we crying about? Do we care about her? What's happening?

[A]

I didn't get it. This is where I'm gonna tell you to not because I love Meg. You wanna know why? Christine tells Meg, I hear voices. And Meg doesn't say, you're crazy. Meg says, let's talk about it. When they're like, where's Christine? Meg's like, she needed rest. It's so. She supports women in a way that Andrew Lloyd Webber never does. And I am here for it.

[B]

Meg is also the one. Andrew Lloyd Webber likes to have one female character in every show that sings in straight tone.

[A]

Mm. She needed rest also. But this is where Angela Webber fucking sucks. Because then we do Love Never Dies. And who becomes Glenn Close in Fate? Fatal Attraction or Astrakcyon Fatale? As Salma Hayek says in 30 Rock, Meg, Jiri, she becomes full on. I wanna fuck the Phantom. I'll shoot Christine and drown her kid. And I'm like, oh, remember when you supported Whitman, Meg, I hate this.

[B]

Did you see Love Never Dies?

[A]

I've watched the video. It's stupid. And every time people are like, what's it coming to Broadway? I'm like, never let it die.

[B]

I'm too old. I won't watch a bootleg.

[A]

No, it's not a bootleg. It's the professionally shot Australian production.

[B]

I also just can't watch a bootleg.

[A]

It depends on the boot. It depends on the boot for me. Listen, did I fully cut together the 94 carousel and put that on YouTube and change the game for YouTube bootlegs forever? Yes, but also, I hear you. Like, I. Okay, speaking of bootlegs and speaking of the show we're supposed to be talking about, Right. I had to come back to the bootleg of Spelling Bee at Second Stage because Wednesday I went to the New York Public Library to watch the. The production, which they filmed in January of 2006. So the original vice principal Panch, Jay Rice.

[B]

Jay Reese.

[A]

Jay Reese was no longer in it. I was devastated because he was so funny. Although the replacement was lovely.

[B]

He's great. Greg Stir.

[A]

Yeah. Very, very funny.

[B]

Yeah, he loved Greg.

[A]

But I get about an hour and 15 minutes in. It's right. It's right when Leaf gets eliminated. Spoiler alert. And they paused everything and they said, we are so sorry, everybody. We have to ask you to leave now. We're closing the library at 3:30 due.

[B]

To the air smoke.

[A]

Due to the smoke outside. Oh, yeah. And I was like, I get it. But also, wouldn't it be safer for me to be inside right now?

[B]

No. I think they were just trying to let people go home before it got worse.

[A]

I hear you. I hear you.

[B]

But I had an event at the library last night and we didn't know if it was going to happen till like 5:00pm yeah.

[A]

Well, so they. I asked like, could I possibly come back tomorrow? And they're like, we don't know. They said, you know, we could best case scenario, definitely, like, get you down for Saturday. I was like, I can't. I'm recording on Friday. And they're like, oh, well, sorry. So I had to go through the depths of the Internet because the whole bootleg of second stage used to be on YouTube and now it's only on YouTube in pockets. So I had to go through the. The dark Internet and find the end of the show and watch that. And there were two things I forgot happened. And one made me laugh and one made me cry. Because it's such a lovely show.

[B]

It's a great show.

[A]

It's hot take. Spelling bee. Good show.

[B]

It's a delicate show though.

[A]

It is.

[B]

I've directed it at a college and I've seen it a bunch of times. And it's. Everyone's temptation is to just do it like it's an SNL sketch.

[A]

Yeah. And.

[B]

And that moment you talked about, when Coney Bear gets out, if the audience doesn't go, it's kind of the first moment they really realize they care.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And you have to like, make them care about these characters without, like, them knowing the audience knowing that's happening to them.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Because then there's a lot of emotion in the last third of the show and you have to earn it.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And if you just are like, goofy for goofy sake the whole time, then you. The audience doesn't care about the end of the show at all.

[A]

Exactly. There's gotta be. It's not that it's camp but it has a similar mentality to camp. In the same way that I feel like, you know, when Mamma Mia. Works best, it's when the whole cast is one foot in jello and one foot in reality. Do you know what I mean? Like playing it straight, but with a light touch.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

You know what I'm saying?

[B]

I just can't. I just don't see Mamma Mia. As real musical theater. Oh, no, I was gonna be nice. I was only gonna be nice.

[A]

No, niceness has nowhere, has no place in this podcast. Kindness has a place in this podcast.

[B]

Okay. All right.

[A]

Thoughtfulness. And I've made it a point to talk about, like, we can have negative opinions in this. On this podcast. Lord knows I say them very openly, but I try not to. I've heard. I've heard some have said. But I try not to be a dick about it because, you know, as I said on the Tony's episode with Jonathan Hoover, when talking about Once Upon a One more time, no one tries to make a bad show. Or rather say 95% of the time, people have good intentions. Whether they're capable of making a good show is one thing. Whether they, you know, are just sort of in a slump because even the greats have had some clunkers. Yeah. And it's not necessarily a judgment call on them. Point is, there are very few shows that, like, I will go to the mat for and be like, no, if you don't like this, you're garbage. Or if you like this, you're garbage. I usually can see where people are coming from for everything. And Mamma Mia was a show I hated then I loved, and then I hated again. And then I saw it right before it closed because I had two friends in the closing cast and it was all New York audiences and the cast was giving a shit again. And I was like, oh, I forgot that this show can be very delightful.

[B]

Well, I don't. I just think it's not for me.

[A]

Sure. In the same way that and Juliet is not for me.

[B]

But I think you're like me. I sit down to like everything.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

With open minded intention to like. When I first got to the city, my best friend at the time, Dan Reichard, the original Bob Gaudio and Jersey Boys, we went and got Rush tickets to a show called Thou Shalt Not. And we sat down and they were like side front orchestra and a bunch of the Rush people were sitting there and people were like, how many times have you seen it? And we said, this is our first time. And they Said, oh, we keep coming back to laugh. And I turned to Dan and I said, let's like this show. Because I'm like, no. Yeah, that's not what this is about. All these people, like, you know, there's a bunch of Broadway debuts in the show. These people are like, we got it. You know, and you have to drink the Kool Aid of whatever show you're in. Yeah.

[A]

If you're going to get up there and debase yourself.

[B]

Yeah. There were some crazy shit in that show.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

But there was still stuff to admire. There's always something to admire.

[A]

Yeah. No, no. I was thinking about it. I was.

[B]

The range and the pause told me a lot.

[A]

Well, no, because I was. Because the two. I have two musicals that I tend to, like, make the butt of my jokes, but I was like, no. There were things that I can say. Like, the glitter tornado in Finding Neverland is. Was very lovely. So lovely that they stole it for Once Upon a One More Time for a different reason. In Finding Neverland, it was to symbolize a death, and Once Upon a One More Time, it was to symbolize a freedom. But Glitter is versatile that way. She's a versatile Fire island chorus gal.

[B]

When in doubt, there's always someone crazily talented on that stage.

[A]

Yeah. Listen, and. And it's why I try really hard. Anytime I've written any reviews on Instagram, if I'm talking about a performance, even if I didn't like it, it's not a judgment call on the performer, because most of the time I find a Broadway performer very talented. It's just, like, either a misuse of their talent or they're being directed poorly or the materials letting them down. I'm like, I don't know. Everyone's always working really hard to get something once they have something to keep it and then to make it interesting and, like, make things come alive. You read Julie Andrews memoir, and she talks about, like, with Camelot, how that show was just dying, and every night the cast would, like, go to Sardis and get drunk and be like, what if I said the line this way tomorrow night? Do you think, like, the audience would be happy then? And they're like, they just spent every night trying to figure ways to make the show better. And part of it was, like, the material was still letting them down, but, like, they were gonna keep fucking trying no matter what.

[B]

I've been in some real stinkers, and you bond so much from those because.

[A]

Oh, sure. Trauma bonding.

[B]

Yeah. But, like, it's. No one's like, again, Everybody tried to make something good. My favorite review I've ever read was Vincent Canby's review of the original Parade. And he was the Sunday reviewer for the Times then. And he basically wrote, some of the most talented people creating theater today have made a show that does not work. Let's discuss why. And whether you agree with that or not, it made you want to see the show.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

While saying it's not working. And I admire that so much. I think that's what criticism should be.

[A]

It is. And that's a. That's a review that the creatives can look at, and whether they disagree or agree with his takes, they can read it and, and see where he's coming from and talk about it and either defend their artistic choices or say, you know what? He has a point there. We didn't think about that. Let's, like, think about this in the next one. There's E. Todd. I don't know if, you know, this ego is everywhere. It's as. It's as thick as the smoke that was in New York City. And I. And I feel like, while it's creating, this kind of shit is so vulnerable and sensitive. It's why, like, when you're giving negative feedback, you have to be very thoughtful about how you give it. But also, as an artif. Which I would argue we both are in our own ways, you have to be receptive of it, because if you think all of your choices are perfect or everything you're doing is perfect, you're never gonna grow, you're never gonna get better. You're never gonna make the kind of art that's bold and interesting. And I say this because as you bring it back to spelling bee, there is a lot of vulnerability in the work of spelling bee, which makes it so special.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Because as you said, like, there's a goofiness to it. There's a lot of heightened humor about it, but there has. It has to be living in some semblance of reality in order for the heart to come through. I feel I've said this before. You know, the best dramas start actually with a lot of humor because it's a way to disarm an audience and get them open to the. The, you know, emotional floodgates that are gonna be coming their way. If you just beat them with sadness from the jump, they're gonna be numb by the end. And, you know, I, I. It's such a balancing act. So when it's done well, I stand and I cheer. And when it's not done well, I'm like, okay, I've learned something today, and I hope they did as well, and we can make. We keep going for the brass ring.

[B]

Well, Spelling Bee is a comedy about sad people.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And it's why I always say that Cheers, the sitcom. Sorry to be the oldest person involved on the Broadway podcast network right now, but the sitcom Cheers takes place in a bar. The main character is an alcoholic who drank his. His baseball career away. And the other. All the people in the bar are people that don't want to go home. They're drunks, whatever. But it's a comedy about sad people. So, like, the sadness of it makes you care about it, as opposed to being a stupid sitcom that just is, like, making jokes for joke's sake. We actually care about these people, and we want the best for them. But then it's also funny.

[A]

Yeah. Well, I mean, I was thinking about that. Think about how Diane shows up in that show. Like, she gets fucking left there by her boyfriend, not knowing that that's what he's doing. It's so sad. Also, like, comedy doesn't come from people being happy doing the healthy thing. No. It comes from everyone's brokenness, which, you know, you want. You want some semblance of normalcy and equilibrium in your life, but when you're on stage, you need that kind of tension. And, I mean, Spelling Bee isn't really the first show about indoor people, but it is, like, one of the most famous ones. I was saying how, like, Kimberly Akimbo is a musical about indoor kids, and it really is sort of an heir to Spelling Bee in that way, because that show is also about indoor kids.

[B]

Isherwood wrote his review of. I mean, I don't think he reprinted his Off Broadway review, but, no, he.

[A]

Wrote a new one.

[B]

But I remember it said something, and I'm going to misquote it about. You know, a lot of musicals are about the French Revolution. Not the one we remember, but another one. But about big events.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And this is about the tiniest events but have changed each. Like a kid figuring out he's smart. A girl figuring out her parents aren't perfect. Someone making their first friend. Someone figuring out, like, the joy of failing for the first time. And it's like these kids, as silly as it is, that they all stand up and tell their epilogue at the end. It's because I'm not gonna cry. This is ridiculous. That, like, they are each. Their lives are completely changed by this day. And that's why it's a good musical.

[A]

It's a very good musical. On that note, Chad for those who are. Chad, for those who are an uncultured fuck, as I like to call them. What is the 25th annual Putnam County Spelling Bee aboot?

[B]

It is simply the spelling bee that happens for it's about, I believe the ages are 10 to 13. So I think that's middle school. No, it might.

[A]

Well, actually. So I'm trying to think because Logan Schwartz and Grubinier finally wins. She says in her epilogue, I think on her seventh try. So I think you can technically be, I want to say like 8. 7 or 8. Maybe like. So it's either 7 to 14 or 8 to 15.

[B]

We always thought that she was 10 years old. That's what she is. 10. Okay.

[A]

She's 10.

[B]

So yeah.

[A]

Oh.

[B]

So yeah. Okay. But it's like the middle school. It's just the county spelling bee.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

So they won their. Their school B. And this is the regional B. Yeah. And they will send someone to nationals. And so it's just these five. I guess there's five.

[A]

I think it's six. It's. It's Chip Leaf.

[B]

Chip Leaf, Barfy, Marcy, Schwartzy, Olive. 6. 6 spellers and then 4 guest spellers from the audience and the hostess of the bee, who is a previous winner, and the vice principal, who is the officiant. And then we have Mitch Mahoney, which is a whole interesting discussion to have. Who is our comfort counselor. And it's these nine people and how this beat one person does win the bee and how their days, how their lives are changed by this spelling bee.

[A]

Everybody, every single character in that show has an arc. Yeah, I love that every. There's. Everyone has some meat to play and a moment to shine. And everyone has a beginning, middle and end of their character on that show. I love it. I mean, one of my. The moment that always like gets me, the first one that always gets me in the show where I kind of start to tear up is when again, spoiler alert, Logan Schwartz and Grubiner gets eliminated. And she does her goodbye and Mitch offers. Because the way that Mitch is the comfort counselor, he basically begrudgingly gives them a juice box and like a half assed hug, which is like him doing like a pat on the back. And when Logan does her goodbye and he goes to offer her the juice box, she just falls into his arms and hugs him. And like that's the moment that makes Mitch kind of realize that what he's doing can have an impact. And that's the beginning of his Turning Point. And I, like. I don't know. It always makes me just get very choked up to watch, like, people be kind to each other. It's this. It's like the same hug in Matilda that, like, breaks me is when Matilda gives Ms. Honey the biggest hug in the world because Ms. Honey's gonna give her books to read. It's like.

[B]

Yeah, it's like.

[A]

It's when Tina shows up for Louise and her poem reading at the library. And Bob's Burgers, which always makes me cry.

[B]

Give me a kid running into, like, give me little Patrick running into Mame's arms. And as much as I'm like, what is the through line of the show? I don't care. Every time you run into her, the.

[A]

South will rise again. I don't care. Child is happy.

[B]

I know. Everyone's like, revive Mame. I'm like, who's gonna rewrite it?

[A]

Yeah, we need to alter some of those lyrics here. No, it. That's. Yeah. So this show's journey is fascinating because it started as sort of like an improvisational sketch. Right. With the farm.

[B]

Yeah. It was something called crepuscule.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

Which is a word that Barfy spells later in the show. But it's. Crepescule was just a. Yeah, it's just a spelling bee word. But that was the name of the sketch that they did, and it was kind of sketch. It was kind of improv. And Sarah Salzberg, who was the original Logan Schwartz and Grubiner was a part of it, and she was the nanny to Wendy Wasserstein.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

So then Wendy Wasserstein called her friend William Finn and said, I just saw the thing. You need to make your next musical. And so Bill went and saw it, and then it started moving from there, and they started talking about it, developing it, and then a lot of the development happened in the Berkshires at Barrington Stage. At Barrington Stage. Yeah. And I actually saw it there because Celia Keenan Bolger is my best friend from college. We graduated Michigan together. So I saw it with no expectation of ever being a part of it, because it was all cast. And then it went to second stage and got great reviews, and then it went to Broadway.

[A]

It went to Broadway very fast.

[B]

Yeah. I mean, I think it's actually one of the few. Like, you know, Kimberly Akimbo is not up for Drama desks and all those things this year because it would play it off Broadway, but it. We did off Broadway and Broadway in the same season because we opened really on Broadway, really close to the Tony Awards. So I think it played the winter at second Stage.

[A]

Yeah, it's a very. It has a very similar timeline as Rent. There have been a couple of shows we've done on this series that had a very fast turnover to Broadway. We said Rent, Love, Valor, Compassion. I think the Heidi Chronicles, where it's like, it ended it like, you know, it started for a two month run off Broadway, might have extended by like two or three weeks, and like pretty much went to Broadway the month. That very next month. Because Spelling be. Yeah, it started previews in January. It opened in early, early to mid February, closed mid March, and then opened literally a month later. I think you guys were the last show of the season.

[B]

I think we were.

[A]

You might have been the last show of the season. And I remember at the time, the. I mean, every. The. The two shows that kind of came in with the biggest buzz at first were Spamalot, obviously everyone thinking that was gonna be the next Producers. And like, it sort of was for five seconds and then it calmed down. And then Dirty Round Scoundrels, which was, you know, the next Yazbek, Jack o'.

[B]

Brien, Jerry Mitchell, also Love.

[A]

It was. First of all, we all know 2005 was a very famous year where we had four best musicals nominees that all were good.

[B]

Yeah, that all could have won in different years.

[A]

I. Spamalon now has a reputation as being bad because it won over three shows that everyone loves so much more now. And I don't think that's fair. Spamalot is good. I don't think. I think it's the least good of the four. But that's not saying Spamalot's bad. That's a testament to the fact that we had Spelling Bee Piazza and Dirty Rotten Scoundrels. Yeah, that's also like a year where none of the four musicals had a bad Tony performance. They're all kind of iconic. Like, all four of them just nailed it.

[B]

And there was a Sunday Times thing about predictions. And there was a picture of the knights running from Spamalot. And it was right towards the end of Magic Foot, when the cast of was about to run downstage for the end of Magic Foot. So looked like the Spelling Bee cast was chasing the knights, saying that Spelling Bee was the dark horse to win Best Musical. But I remember Celia even gave an interview and they were like, do you think you're gonna win Avenue Q1? And she said, that's why we won't win. And she said, because. And it's kind of true because Avenue Q did a Big vote. Your hearts thing. Yeah. And then didn't go on tour, and all of the rogue presenters were pissed, and so they're like, we're not doing that anymore.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

I don't. I'm not here to say that Spamalot was bad, but I just. I was proud to be a part of a year where everyone was just so worthy.

[A]

Yeah. I think the thing is that the Avenue Q win kind of sucks a little bit because of all that, because it there, if you look at it, that it became then sort of a minute where Tony voters were tentative to vote for the underdog small show. Like, if you were gonna be the artistic success, you needed to also, like, have some financing going on in your box office. Like, Spring Awakening kind of was able to turn their financials around once they got Tony nominated, so it became easier to vote for them because they were starting to do well at the box office again. It's like, oh, great. So let's vote for it, because now it'll actually, like, run for two more years. But post I now.

[B]

I listened to your Spring Awakening with the Drama Boys. The Drama Boys. So I got a ticket in previews to Spring Awakening, and I got. And I just happened to know the guy in the box office.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And I. It was sold out. It was so. And I literally sat in between Jerry Seinfeld and Sarah Jessica Parker because, like, the stars were coming out to see it. So I don't remember that it was hurting at all.

[A]

That.

[B]

That was the moment where I was talking back to the podcast while I was listening to it.

[A]

Listen, there might have been a podcast the Drama Boys were just on that I was talking back to. But people tell me all the time, like, I talk back when. When I listen to your podcast, and I realize I'm not actually in the room. I'm like, I know. No, it was hurting. It was. Listen, it wasn't like, 10 people were in the audience every night situation, but, you know, they were this big hit at the Atlantic, and then they were able to sort of translate that to preview audiences. And then I remember once they opened, you could always get a ticket. It was never, like, empty. But if you. I mean, also, like, if you just look at the grosses, they're, you know, between, like, 65% capacity and 80% capacity, like, on any given week. So it's not like they were dying. They. They really like to paint it as we were on death's door the entire time. Like, you weren't there. They were sort of in a Kimberly Akimbo situation. It's like they had a money making week and then a money losing week. And it was always sort of off and on, off and on. And it was never fully sold out pretty much until end of April. And that, I think, because they also because Spring Awakening opened in the summer of 06 and then. And then moved, I think, in October, so they were eligible for the Drama Desks and Lortel. So they were able to pick up some steam that way. But still their box office wasn't like, we're a hit status really until the spring. It like, it started strong and then kind of went away for a bit.

[B]

But to get back to a topic at hand. Oh, sorry.

[A]

You're gonna.

[B]

You guide the interview.

[A]

You do it well. I only say this because after Avenue Q, there is sort of that a trend for a few years where, like, it goes to the hit, it goes to Spamalot, it goes to Jersey Boys, it goes to in the Heights, it goes to Billy Elliott. And then it's not until really after Fun Home. Yeah, it's obviously after Kinky Boots. Fun Home is sort of the first musical winner that would eventually start a trend after Hamilton of like, we're going for like the artistic small show.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And obviously bands visit Hadestown, Moulin Rouge. Moulin Rouge, that indie show. Strange Loop. But I mean, even like Dear Evan Hansen, which people like, oh, but it was such a hit. I'm like, yeah, but, you know, people forget that it was kind of between that and Come From Away. And a lot of people like, well, come from Away. So feel good. That can just tour for years and it'll go everywhere. Like Evan Hansen, you don't know how it's gonna do. And is it like a big hit because of Ben or is it just like a good show? And so it ended up winning sort of on the merit that I. That Tony voters felt that it had. And I'll get into all that when we eventually do the Dear Evan Hansen episode. But at the time, that was. It wasn't voted for because it was a phenomenon. It was voted on at the time because people were like, it's. They've. Everyone's like, this is a good show. Because even at that time, Josh Groban hadn't left Comet yet. So comed was still doing well. So there were three musicals that were box office successes. It wasn't like Dear Evan Hansen was the clear runaway smash hit. But I digress. Back to Spelling Bee.

[B]

But I was going to. To get us back to Spelling Bee. Like Spring Awakening, we What was really fun is we were the hip show because we had, like, a downtown feel about it. So Kate Weatherhead, who is one of the understudies with me, was great. We had. We had such a good group, the four of us, that were the four off stage understudies. And Lisa Ewan and Willis White. We would, you know, sit in the audience to take notes. And there wasn't even. There was never a seat for us because we were sold out. So there's like a little shelf somewhere to sit in. Circle in the square. And I'm sorry, Julia Roberts comes. I'm not watching the show. I'm watching Julia Roberts watch the show. There were so many times when. Because they were always in. There were, like, famous people seats.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And they were always there. And so we would just stare and watch the famous people.

[A]

Yeah. Now, you guys, I remember you because. So with Spelling Bee and Piazza, there was a lot of talk when you. You guys were transferring. And then when it was announced that Lincoln center was doing Piazza, which, like, no one had really seen yet because it only played Seattle and Chicago. So, like, only those city, you know, folk were talking about it on. On the boards. But there was talk for a second of, like, I don't know, will it do? Well, it's such an off Broadway show. And then you guys pretty much out the gate, just were doing well, it felt.

[B]

And I remember our tickets were $85. Every seat was $85. And I remember thinking, no one's gonna pay that much to see this. And now you look at prices now. Yeah, but. Yeah, and we.

[A]

And I remember. I also remember watching the Tony performance because we. I saw Spelling Bee, I think, a month after the Tonys, and we watched it, and at that point, we had only seen my family and I had only seen Piazza, and we'd only seen Dirty Ron scoundrels. And so we watched this fam a lot performance already having tickets for August. And, like, I was very obsessed with Sarah Ramirez's voice. My dad was a little underwhelmed by it because my dad loves the movie, and I think he was hoping it would be sillier and it wasn't silly enough for him, but he ended up enjoying the show. But I remember him watching the spelling bee performance and watching Barfy Barfay accent and you Aegu doing the magic foot bit. And my dad was like, this is brilliant. I'm like, I think that. I think that Tony performance sold my dad on getting tickets for us to see the show.

[B]

Really?

[A]

Yeah. And we Went to a Sunday matinee. I remember in the summer and everyone was in. It was. And it was a sold out house. It was just so much fun.

[B]

It's a hard show to sell on. The Tonys and that Tony's were screwed. I mean, do you remember Vicky Clark coming live from Florence with the broken microphone. Whatever.

[A]

I. I mean, you guys had audio issues too. When Lisa Howard starts. If anyone's watching that Tony performance again, watch it again. Lisa Howard starts to sing and I'm pretty sure her mic actually is broken because Jose Ana's voice is much more amplified than hers. Is she. You would never tell until he started to sing. Because Lisa just projects in a way where you're like, yeah, no, obviously. But while she's singing, you can hear someone, like on a God mic say something. Just something like, oh, like, whoever. I know it's live TV and it's very difficult, but it's like, come on, backstage crew, get your shit together. First Vicky, now Lisa. Come on.

[B]

But I feel like there's always sound problems at the Tonys.

[A]

Sure. And. And you know, sometimes set problems. Sometimes rockers get hit in the head by a floating piece of scenery.

[B]

Yeah, but I don't think that's a set problem. I think that's a rocker.

[A]

Sure, sure. Just hit your mark before your mark hits you.

[B]

Or come to rehearsal.

[A]

Or come to rehearsal. Listen, some people don't know the meaning of the word rehearse.

[B]

I mean, that speaking of the year of Devin Hansen. Evan Hansen, the fact that no one learned how to say Benj Pasek, I'm like, benj. That's all it is. And I'm like, makes me so mad.

[A]

Especially with someone like Kevin Spacey, who made a career out of saying Ben Jover.

[B]

Oh, Jesus.

[A]

I'm just saying I feel like it's.

[B]

So bad that I laugh.

[A]

Right?

[B]

Like, it's just like it's not even really a joke.

[A]

No, no. The only joke is that I speak at all on this podcast. On that note, let's take a break.

[B]

Yay. Billy.

[A]

I'd beg to differ with you. How do you mean? You're the top. Yeah, you're an arrow collar. You're the top. You're a coolidge dollar. You're the nimble thread. And we're back. What a marvelous break that was.

[B]

Oh, beautiful.

[A]

I know. I got so much done, I took a nap. I did some eating, some cooking, some reading.

[B]

I texted all my crashes.

[A]

All of them. All 30 of them. Well, we look forward to the dick pics that are Gonna come your way. So you. You mentioned this earlier, and I didn't really zoom in on it, but there is audience interaction spelling bee in a way that not a ton of shows had at the time. People always like to say, like, oh, this was the first. This is. Whatever. It's. Spelling bee is not the first Broadway musical to have audience interaction, but it was the first in a while to have it at that extent and definitely brought it back in a way that, you know, we'll sometimes still see. And part of that is having four audience members come up and be spellers.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Now everyone likes to. I remember also at the time, there would be reports about, you know, oh, this thing happened with this audience member and, like, this happened. The two things I remember were when Julie Andrews came and was a speller and she had to spell supercalifragilistic expiadocious. And then there was always this myth about this one person who, like, turns out was like a nationally ranked speller in their youth and, like, couldn't get off the stage.

[B]

Yeah, that happened.

[A]

That did happen.

[B]

Yeah. We had someone from the national spelling bee, and we. They had to just pull out a dictionary and I mean, so can I. Here's a real secret.

[A]

Yeah. Okay. So I watched an interview with Celia, and I want you to reveal the secret that I'm pretty sure is the same one.

[B]

She said there was a fake word in the show. So once we had gotten three of the four guest spellers out, you would call the fourth one up and you would give them a word. The word cater. Junes.

[A]

Yup.

[B]

Which is not a word.

[A]

I wrote it down.

[B]

Cater. So the assignment there is if they spelled it any way it could possibly be spelled with a C with a K. With a TT Er. With a J, a G. Whatever. As long as it is a possible spelling for it. You would say, that is correct. And the. Everyone on stage would give the look of like, oh, no, what would we do? Yeah. We were a little supposed to, like, fall out of character at that moment. And I hope that doesn't disappoint people. But what it gave everybody is they were like, I was there the night that, like. And sometimes, like, there was a point in timeless to me in Hairspray where they would crack each other up.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And it was, like, part of it. And I got. I. When I found that out, I was a little disappointed by that. So I don't know how people feel about it, but it was really fun to be a part of.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

I was also panch. The. I Actually made my Broadway debut as Douglas Panch. And I was, like, 26, 27 years old, and if I parted my hair and slicked it just right, I looked like Karl Rove. But I. I was there the first. I was playing the principal the first time somebody spelled cow wrong. So going into, like, the. The recording is mostly the off Broadway version. So, like, you. The, like, lines you hear are a little bit wrong. Wrong. But, like, going into Pandemonium, you give the youngest speller. Usually the youngest guest speller. They spell cow.

[A]

Yep.

[B]

And we just. The kid just got nervous and said, C a W. And so I had to ding him, which means we have to sing a goodbye song. And then we all sat down, and no one knew what to do because we have to sing Pandemonium. And so Jose Lana just started it, and he went, mayo ma. And the band just didn't come in. And so we all just, like, sat. And like, eventually we were like, play the damn song. And we just shouted to each other. But we had to create, because there were so many contingency plans in the show. Yeah, it was a very much a choose your own adventure. And so we had to create a contingency plan for if they spell Kyle wrong, we'll sing this song, and it'll segue directly into Pandemonium. But, I mean, it was one thing. I mean, I was. I played four different characters in that show, so that kept it fresh. But also, the possibility of what could happen any night really helped keep that show fresh.

[A]

Absolutely.

[B]

You know, they learned very quickly once someone was chosen to be a guest speller, to keep an eye on them and not let them go to the bar. Because in previous, we had a few people get really drunk and come on stage. We have this one guy that he was so strange. And then when he got out and Mitch went up and put his arm on him, patted his back, a puff of smoke came off his coat because he was just a dusty old man.

[A]

Oh, my God.

[B]

So, like, sometimes you were next to someone. That was, like, hilarious. Sometimes Jose and Jesse thought someone was hot, and they were, like, competing for him.

[A]

Oh, my God. Okay.

[B]

But there was always just, like, interest into what was going on with the guest stars.

[A]

And then also you guys had a few adult nights at spelling bee.

[B]

Yeah, those were. I will tell you, they were kind of a nightmare.

[A]

Oh, no.

[B]

Just because I also feel like our show was kind of perfect. And the last third of the show never really played at those adult nights.

[A]

Sure.

[B]

But we would spell dirty words and whatever, and it was Fun. But as an understudy, they wrote those, like, the day off.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And so if someone. Something happened, we would just sit there and be like, don't make us go on. Don't make us go on. Don't make us go on. And there. I did play a panda a couple times.

[A]

A panda?

[B]

Because in Pandemonium, there would be, like, pandas fucking in the background or something. It was crazy.

[A]

That is kind of crazy.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

I remember hearing stories about the adult nights, and I'm like. At the time, because I was, you know, essential, 16 years old, I was like, that sounds hilarious, but I'm sure. No, and it was.

[B]

And it was hilarious for fans of the show.

[A]

Sure.

[B]

It was actually a brilliant producerial move. It made people that had already paid to see the show paid to see it again. But there were some people that just bought tickets for that night, and they were like, what did we get ourselves into?

[A]

Yeah. So that's always tricky.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Because. Yeah, for me, like, the show is. It's what makes this show so special is not the adult humor. It's the adult humor mixed with the child, like, innocence. I was watching. I think I was watching. I was watching Bill Finn and James Lapine on Theater Talk talk about it, because I do a lot of research for this podcast.

[B]

Is Theater Talk still on?

[A]

God, no. She's dead.

[B]

How dare you? Roma Torre, Right?

[A]

No, it was Michael Riedle and what's her face?

[B]

The dead woman.

[A]

No, she. No, I don't mean. I don't mean the co host is that. I mean, the show is dead.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

Oh, no show. The show is dead. Oh, that's what she meant. No, I was referring to the show as she. God, no. What's her name? Because she also, like, she's just. She was a sweet gal, but she also just like, oh, I know.

[B]

She had, like, short hair.

[A]

Yeah. She didn't know a lot of. She would. I want to say it was Susan something. Susan Haskins. Haskins. Yeah. She, like, wouldn't know a lot of the research for the show. So she, like, attributed the book of spelling bee to Bill Finn, and he had to correct her on that. And, like, she thought for a second that, like, he and La Pine came up with the idea of the show, and Bill had. Finn had the corrector on that, like, and basically was like, oh, James, like, didn't show, like, didn't come on board until, like, the very end of the process. And they were like, oh, why was that? And Bill Finn was like. Because I had to convince him to Work with me again. And. Which, I mean, I don't know how much of that was a joke and how much of that was real, because they. They famously spent all of the 80s doing the falsettos stuff together and then bringing it to Broadway. But.

[B]

James is the one that gave the. That made the show real enough to have heart.

[A]

That sounds about right. Well, James. I say James like he and I are friends. Jimmy. Jimmy Lapine. He. What I've said about him on this podcast before is, you know, he's a remarkably gifted comedic director. He's so good at finding bits but making them lived in. But what he's also especially gifted at is he's an especially gifted child's director. When you look at his. His theater resume, as well as some of his filmography. Like, he's worked and gotten amazing legendary performances out of children. Daniel Ferland and Ben Wright in Into the Woods, Jonathan Kaplan in Falsettos, and then the kids in the movie Life with Mikey, which I know is such a deep cut, but I actually really love that movie.

[B]

Sure.

[A]

And got, like, supposedly the only good performance out of Misha Barton in 12 Dreams and, like, in Center Theater. But, you know, like, he's worked with kids a lot and tends to get really good performances out of them. And so it makes sense to me that he would.

[B]

He gave me one of the smartest pieces of direction I've ever gotten in my life. And as an understudy, you don't often work with the director that much. I think it was a happy experience. And he liked to be around it.

[A]

Sure.

[B]

But I was, you know, doing understudy rehearsal with the stage manager and the associate director, and, you know, I was there to be Barfy Coney Bear Pants. And on special days, I was Chip. You know, when enough people were sick, I had to be Chip. I was Chip four times in the entire run, and he just happened to show up. The first time I was on for Barfy, because it was. It was kind of sudden. It was a matinee, and in my understudy rehearsals, I kept getting the note, you're great. You're. You're a little performy. And I was like, what does that mean? And they would just say, yeah, it's just performing. And I'm like, I don't know what that means. And it's hard when you get a note that you don't understand because you just end up questioning everything you do.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

So James just happened to be at the matinee, and he came backstage, he's like, wanna Sit and talk. And I'm like, yeah. And he's like, okay, you're wonderful. You have no character, but you're wonderful. And I said, what? And he said, dan Fogler is a scary person in real life, and he is. And the journey for the audience is they go from disliking this boy to loving him.

[A]

And.

[B]

And that is one of the greatest journeys that the audience takes in the show. You come out and you're a cute little teddy bear, and then the audience takes no journey because they love you the whole time. And it actually makes the show less interesting. And I said, okay, so what do I do? And he said, you have to choose to repel the audience. This kid has been so picked on in his life that he now puts up this wall. Like, all the sinus stuff. Everything he does in the show is actually, I'm gonna do this and make people go away from me.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

I'm gonna repel people. And it was like, suddenly everything made sense. That's what they meant by. It was being too performy. I didn't know what that meant to them.

[A]

Yeah. You know, but it's the specificity that you can. That. That Jimmy gave you that you can play. Also me, I'm. I have just started watching Succession. I don't know how much of it I'm loving, but it's very fascinating watching Matthew McFadden as Tom, the fiance to Shiv, who gets picked on by the entire family all the time. And then, like, will retaliate by then picking on cousin Greg or someone else in the office. And that's how bullies are.

[B]

Right?

[A]

Like, it's like to feel bigger after being made small. They find someone to make themselves feel big. And instead, like, Barfy, you know, Barfay getting picked on all the time comes into this B. Deciding gonna be top dog and repelling, like, pick. Like picking on people for no reason. Like being rude to Olive for so long until finally he breaks. Being, like, kicking Chip while he's down. Just things that are snide and snotty. That, of course, like, a kid would do.

[B]

Right. And he's gonna do it before they do it to him.

[A]

Yes. And he. But. And he starts to soften when he was. When it just becomes him and Olive in the end. I love that.

[B]

That Olive. I love scene in the middle of the show.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Is. It's like 10 lines, and it, like, is perfect.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

I mean, give her. Give. Give us the book Tony Award just for that right there. It's so. It accomplishes so Much in so little time.

[A]

When it's when. So the scene that Todd is referring to that. Those of you who maybe never saw spelling bee. What's wrong with you if you didn't. God, you're just gonna watch and Juliet nine times, but be nice.

[B]

I have a lot of friends in that show.

[A]

I will say I have a new appreciation for that show. While I still don't love it, I recognize a lot of the things about it that are quite good, including the arrangements, which I would give them an orchestrations Tony for. Yeah. Would I? I think I would. I don't think they're gonna win. We're recording this two days before the Tonys. Are we allowed to say that you're a voter?

[B]

Sure.

[A]

Todd's a voter. So if there's a winner you don't agree with on that Sunday, blame him.

[B]

I have to tell you, I have been a voter for about three years, and almost 80% of what wins, I'm like, didn't vote for that. Didn't vote for that.

[A]

Don't say that. Don't say that. Why? Well, because. What if you voted for stuff I wanted to win this year?

[B]

I don't know. I don't know. I think we're. I think we're similarly aligned for this year, but that's all I'm going to say.

[A]

That's all we're going to say.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

I look forward to you listening to my predictions of who will win with inappropriate Patty before the. Yeah, I love him. He's. Jonathan's amazing.

[B]

He's just a good guy, too.

[A]

He is. It's nice when nice people are nice, but. But.

[B]

But when nice people are mean.

[A]

Well, hate that, honestly. Yeah, but we listen. We don't have to get into it too much. But like, you know, like, especially in this industry we call show.

[B]

Mm.

[A]

It's a lot of people who are nice but not kind, and I have learned that a lot. I'm kind of getting to a place now where I can smell it before I interact with those people. So when I meet people who are actually kind as well as nice, who are like actual people, I just go, oh, my God, this is so wonderful. It's like the opposite of Invasion of the Body Snatchers. I'm like, you're not a pod person. You're a person. And it's so wonderful because I feel like we always make these blanket statements. Oh, all actors are such. All artists are such. And I'm like, some are. Listen, stereotypes come from somewhere, so sometimes you meet that art, that actor who's like, yeah, you know, my career, Instagram, Tony's awards, all about the work. Blah, blah, blah. My jawline could cut leather. And you're like, the reality is we're delicate. We're all delicate.

[B]

No, but, like, actors are dealing with rejection so much that, like, when they're. When it. When it comes their way, when they're not expecting it, they're just like, their defenses are down. And.

[A]

Sure.

[B]

What? I. I'm not saying that all actors are one.

[A]

I'm. I'm talking, like, when I get a coffee with someone and we're talking and I'm like, you can look at me. Or like, I'm like, I'm not Playbill. We can just have a conversation. People who just curate their wording so much. There's a difference between thinking before you speak and thinking you're Eva Peron on the Casa Rosada. I'm like, there are no masses here. It's just me. It's fine. It's fine. You can fuck up with your wording right now. That's what people do. I do it all the time. And I unfortunately chose to have a part of my life where I do it on main. But this brings us back to spelling bee, because the scene that Todd's talking about is as we start whittling down the contestants, and I think we just get to the final five, the audience members are gone. Chip Tolentino is the first main cast member to get eliminated, and we'll talk about that in a minute, because puberty, she's a bitch. But Chip has sort of like, consolation. He has to start selling confections while to the audience, confessions, concessions to the audience. See, this is the fuck ups I'm talking.

[B]

But they do say confections in the song. So you're not wrong.

[A]

I'm not. Not 100% wrong. But I was not totally right either. But so afterwards, William taunts him a bit. You know, that whole, like, I'm gonna feel bigger right now. Especially because Chip had won the previous year at the Bee and William had had to leave due to a peanut allergy situation where there are peanuts and the brownies because there'd be no peanuts and the brownies. That's a great flashback. It's like. That actually feels like a 30 Rock flashback.

[B]

Totally.

[A]

But so in that moment, Chip and William, they don't get physical, but it gets very tense for a second, and.

[B]

Chip throws the peanuts at him.

[A]

Granted, the peanuts are in the bag, but still. No, it's a very funny moment. And when Chip leaves. Olive, who is just like the kindest of souls, comes up to try to, like, comfort William. And he just immediately retaliates. And he's like. He's like, I don't need to be, you know, made feel bad by someone whose name's a vegetable. She goes, well, it's a fruit. He goes, well, it's a disgusting fruit, blah, blah. And then he realizes what he said. And he could either, like. Because you can see that she's hurt by it. And he could. He has two choices. He can either stand in his convictions and like, decide to, like, go down this road of being awful, or he could, like, bend a little bit. And so he decides to bend a little bit. But he's a little too proud to say I'm sorry. So what he instead says is, I guess it's okay for a name, though. Which is his way of like, I can't say I'm sorry, but I do feel bad right now. I'm not a total monster. And in a way, she understands that because instead of her saying like, I forgive you, which reminds me of that Emma Stone SNL sketch is the woman who gets cheated on in the porn. And she. And she improvise, improvises. I forgive you. What are you doing? Not with. My God, son.

[B]

I've watched that so many times.

[A]

She's so fucking brilliant.

[B]

And the fact that they got actual porn stars to be in that.

[A]

They sure did. But Olive doesn't go that route. She doesn't do like the, oh, Oprah's right next door and she'll give me a Nobel Peace Prize for forgiving this 12 year old boy. She just, you know, she recognizes he's bent a little bit. And she starts to have a conversation with. And she says, do you know if you replace the two vowels of Olive becomes. I love that. William's response is, if you. If you flip the two first two vowels of William, you'd get William. So fun.

[B]

It's so. It's funny. But we always describe that scene as they're dogs sniffing each other.

[A]

Yeah, well. And the way that Dan plays it in the Lincoln center video is he's trying to play along and he's trying to. And he's trying to, like, come back with her with his own name. But he realizes halfway through the sentence that the two flip. So he's like, God damn, but I fucked this up already. He's like, I tried to, like, be nice and it's bit me in the ass. But Olive surprises him by like going further down that road with him. And it's. You get to see, as you said, these two dogs sniff each other. These two kids kind of like, slowly toe the line of, like, can we be friends? Are we. Are you going to be nice to me or mean to me? Yeah.

[B]

And it's what's like, you know how dogs can sniff, sniff. And then also they're like. And they, like, fight. And that's why they're. He's being careful with her because people haven't been nice. No one has shown themselves to be nice to him.

[A]

Yeah. Including his stepmother. His fake mom. He's got a real mom and a fake fake mom. Sheila, I love. We have two kids with gay parents. It's great. I love the representation.

[B]

When Josh Gad came in to replace. To replace Dan Fogler, he needed glasses and he wouldn't wear them. And very often he would, like, you know, because you pick people out in the audience to be these characters in your life. You know, Marigold, Coney Bear, who gives Chip the boner. You pick people in the house. And he could never tell if he was talking to a woman or not when he was like, fake mom. Sheila. Like, he was always just pointing at, like, a grandpa because he couldn't see.

[A]

That's hilarious. Yeah, let's. Okay, so we've talked about William Barfy a little bit Barfay accent ago. Is that what he says?

[B]

Accent, Ego.

[A]

Accent, Et goo. So let's talk about these six characters, which, first of all, now that I'm thinking about it, we should rewrite the lyrics, the opening number of six, and have it be the six spellers in spelling bee.

[B]

Sure.

[A]

Yeah. I don't know. Just figure something out. We've talked about William for a little bit, who. Who's another character, and we could talk about his number Magic Foot in a second. But let's talk about another character.

[B]

Let's talk about Olive.

[A]

Great. Ms. Ostrovsky.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

If you're nasty.

[B]

Other kind of star.

[A]

Yeah. Well, I think they're the two. Because they're the two who make it to the end there.

[B]

Yeah, they're the central.

[A]

Yeah, there's. There's really no lead in this show, in my opinion. But if you had to be like, what are, like, the. The primary focuses? Those would be the two.

[B]

The two nominated for featured actor and actress.

[A]

Yes, they were. And I think, you know, for a reason. You know, Celia was the. Was the bleeding heart of. Of the show.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And William. I mean, William Murphy is just. It's such a. Like Leif Cony Bear. It's such a bonkers role. Like, such a bonkers character. But he gets a bit more of a thorough arc than Leaf does, so it makes sense. And Magic Foot is just such a ridiculous, like, show off y number. And Tony's also really love a feature performer who's got like a weird number to perform well.

[B]

And it's also. It's so. It's so Bill Finn to have like a weird fantasy number. Like, because that number everyone gets in on. On it with him. Because it's fantasy.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And I will say, directing in the show at a college, you have to be very specific with young people where you're like, okay, this is real. This is actually happening. And Because a lot of the numbers kind of happen in their heads.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

You know, and so that's kind of his fantasy moment. But it's very Bill Finn. Magic Foot is like the only person that could write a song where you sing the words magic foot about 18 times in the song is Bill Finn.

[A]

I want to get to the Bill Finn of it all because I have very specific thoughts about him as a writer and the scores he produces and when they're at their best. And it's about what kind of characters he's writing for and why. I actually think I. I appreciate and love a lot of falsettos. There's something about Spelling Bee that really touches me in a way, and I think it's. We'll get to it. So Olive. Olive's deal.

[B]

Olive shows up a little late. She doesn't have her entrance fee because.

[A]

She was not escorted by an adult.

[B]

No, she took the bus. And she kind of has an absent parent issue. Her mom is in an ashram in India and we don't know too, too much about her dad, but he's not there.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And she just fell in love with words reading her dictionary on the toilet. Yeah.

[A]

And the thing about all those parents is when I was in high school, I couldn't really picture what her parents were like. I. Because the only time we really get any insight into them, it's in a fantasy sequence. Also, all the. All the actors in Spelling Bee play multiple roles because we get glimpses into all of their home lives. Like when Leaf Cony Bear, who will get to like, we have a moment when he finds out he's going to be in the b. You know, the actress playing Logan Schwartz and Grubeniere plays his mother. So.

[B]

And everybody else plays a sibling. Yeah. You even pull up the guest spellers to be different Coney Bear members and.

[A]

Leaf and Mitch Mahoney play Logan's parents. So everyone gets to show off a little bit of versatility as a performer, which I also really love. But so all his parents are played by the performers who play Mitch Mahoney and Rona.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And it's a fantasy number, which is. And you don't realize that that's what's happening until the very end, really. And that's what makes it so devastating. And if you watch the bootleg, which Todd won't do. And I remember. I remember it in the theater as well. And I was told about the number. I didn't. I don't know if the cast album was out yet when I had seen it, but I had heard about the I love you song, so I knew it was a sad song. But. Because up until that point, every moment of fantasy that's happened has been kind of ridiculous. When that number began, there were chuckles in the audience because everyone assumed it was gonna be kind of like a comedy number about how, like, out to lunch, Olive's mom is that she's like doing this weird stuff in India because the back of the stage parts and you see the outline of the Taj Mahal.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And then like the. The moment that the audience quieted down when I saw it, it's the same thing. In the bootleg is the lyric where, if I go to Washington, will lie, be on my own because if I.

[B]

Go to Washington.

[A]

Who will be my chaperone? And that's when everyone goes, oh, fuck, this is not a ha. This is not a funny song. And then it just gets. It's a beautiful, complex melody. And then it's her parents singing I love you, you. We always knew you were special. And then Olive says her truth to her mother, who's not there, which is, you know, you did this thing for you, and I wasn't even a thought in your head when you did it. And because you did this, dad has all this pent up rage that he's taking out at home, and I have to be bear the brunt of it. But she still loves her parents, despite all these things she has. And the word that triggers the song is chimerical, highly fanciful, fanciful, highly unrealistic. So the whole number of hearing her parents say I love you so passionately is ultimately a fantasy. Whether it's true how much they love her is up for debate. I like to think the best in people and think that they're sort of like the upper middle class version of Kimberly Lavaco's parents, where it's like they do love her. They're both just so broken and, like, should never probably have had children to begin with. So they love her in their way. Unfortunately, their way is shitty. But it's such a devastating moment in a show that has a lot of lightness to it.

[B]

And it earns it.

[A]

It so earns it because it comes late in the show. And again, as I said, I'll never forget the audience chuckling at the beginning, thinking it was going one way, and then that line hitting about who will be my chaperone and everyone just going, oh, fuck.

[B]

And it's rare. First of all, everyone listening. You have two homosexuals who. Both eyes are welling up with tears as we talk about it.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Something I've also.

[A]

I've cried a lot this year, Todd. I've been. I've been broken since November. But it's fine.

[B]

It's fine. But it's rare that a show can really surprise you like that.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

You know, that's why Ally Mozzie and Kamila Kimbo is, I think, pulling off the highest high wire act on Broadway this year.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Because she has. Is playing a terrible person and then has to pull off that Father Time song and break your heart. And like, that's hard to do. It is. And she is really achieving. And that's kind of why I say spelling bee is delicate and why I've seen a lot of bad spelling bees. And I'm sure. I'm not saying everybody in is bad, but it really takes a very special hand guiding everyone to make sure that, like this, you can have people screaming, laughing at Magic Foot, and then pull off the I love you song. Yeah.

[A]

Because, well, you have to remember that they exist in the same show.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And so you have to create a production that makes sense for both, where they both can live and excel. It's. I mean, listen, Urinetown is one of the funniest things around, but the number of awful productions I've seen of that because people just play it up so big that it dies within the first 20 minutes.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

You know, the dramatic shows or people just take a lot of text at face value. Even smart musical theater fans won't take the time to really dig into what makes a show work. What has made a show last this long.

[B]

Right.

[A]

They'll just go, oh, that makes me uncomfortable. That doesn't work. Blah, blah. No, no. Take a moment and sit with that lyric or sit with this song, or sit with this scene and really ask yourself, what's this about and why Is this here when we just had this 10 pages ago. I love you. I love everything about you, dear. And I swear, baby, I love you. I love you, I love you.

[B]

Spelling bee has the built in competition as part of it. So we are Americans, we are immediately in. Oh, a competition I'm interested in. I'm not a sports person, but I'll watch Survivor. I watch Drag Race, I'm involved in a competition. And that's why our. The fact that we care about these people. The fact that you care about Coney Bear, when you've been laughing at him, surprises you. So should we talk about Coney Bear next?

[A]

Yeah. So the thing about Leave Cony Bear, and this is the. Another magic trick that the show does, as we were kind of hinting at. He was not supposed to be at the spelling bee.

[B]

No. He's the third runner, second runner up.

[A]

Third runner up, second runner up.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

The only reason I know how this works is because of Drop Dead Gorgeous, which I have the DVD standing behind you. Yeah. Amy Adams. I got second runner up. I came in second. Third. You came in third. It's so good.

[B]

All right. Because the winner had to go to the bat. Had to go to their bat Mitzvah in. The runner up to attend the bat Mit.

[A]

Yes. And it's. It's there. There are certain things that are burned in my brain forever. And it was so great to watch the Lincoln center library video to solidify that my memory was correct in the way that Jesse Tyler Ferguson said that line. Because, no, honey, you came in third. I know, but the winner has to go to their bat Mitzvah and the runner up has to attend the Bat Mitzvah because he just. He's never heard those words before.

[B]

Yeah, It's a word he learned for this.

[A]

Yes. And it's just so fucking funny. And again, one of those small things where, like, in one line alone, you learn so much about Leif. Cony Bear has never heard the words bat Mitzvah before because he's homeschooled. And the fact that both of these spelling bee kids that he lost to are going to the same event that he's not going to like, it just shows you how isolated he is from other kids his age. It's so. It's such good writing.

[B]

He's. Leif is home now. I went on the most for Barfian and Coney Bear, and I look like Barfy and my heart is Coney Bear. So that's where, like, that's why I think I fit well into the Show. But Connie Bears homeschooled. And Coney Bear has no semblance of what normal is.

[A]

No.

[B]

And what I loved most about him is that he also had no judgment towards anybody else. Everyone else is sniffing out the competition, taking in who's this quiet girl that moved from Virginia. Who's that? Like, he's just like, people.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Look at all these people. You know, and he's just. He's happy to be there. His siblings aren't very nice to him. They've made him feel stupid. But he somehow has this positive outlook and has no judgment towards anybody.

[A]

Mm.

[B]

And he ends up spelling well through this kind of trance like thing that happens to him.

[A]

Yeah. Every. Every kid has a technique. Well, every kid but Marcy park has a technique.

[B]

Yeah. Olive and Chip don't really have techniques.

[A]

Olives is. She whispers into her hands before she.

[B]

Says, oh, she does that.

[A]

Right. And yeah, Chips is something kind of similar. Most. I mean, he just sort of thinks it through before he spells it. Marcy is, you know, a machine. And just.

[B]

Because what Schwartzy does, what Logan Schwartz and Rubenier does, is what a lot of. If you look, watch a spelling bee, a lot of kids will do this. They will trace the letters on their arm because it helps you visualize. And then Barfy ups that by spelling with his foot.

[A]

Yes. And so with Leif, he doesn't really have. He doesn't really train for the spelling bee. He actually just, like, randomly has this gift where he, as you said, goes into this trance. And honestly, it's such a great moment because when he first goes up to spell, part of us goes like, how did this kid place. He doesn't know any of these words. Like, what's he even doing here? And the moment he goes in the trans. Like, oh. That's how he got so far in his last spelling.

[B]

I. I mean, I always played it that this was the first time this has happened to him. I don't think he had a lot of competition in his regional spelling be. I would imagine his regional spelling beat was like, the homeschooled contingent of, like, 19 kids and counting weirdos, you know?

[A]

Sure.

[B]

And so it wasn't like super hard, but, like, the journey that that kid takes to figuring out that, like, he's been told he's dumb his whole life and that he might be smart.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Just. It's. I mean, his song is I'm not that smart, because that's what he's been told. And then he spells it. He also has the wonderful journey of. For Some reason every word he gets is a South American rodent.

[A]

Yep.

[B]

Which is just so funny.

[A]

A coochie.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Yeah. I might be smart My siblings can't believe that I got it right But I got it right, right? I didn't cheat I saw this light and it was neat I like to laugh I like to spell I like to never hear the bell and if this competition's hell at least I'm finally a part I feel my heart begin to swell I like Nemetha Pop I love to spell.

[B]

I like a lot.

[A]

He and Marcy are the only two. And we'll get to Marcy. That have a positive outlook, really. When they get eliminated, but for different reasons.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Because Leaf. Leaf walks away with a sense of confidence and a sense of self that will only grow from there on out. Like, he's gonna feel more sure of himself the next day than he did on that day. And then. And he felt more sure of himself on that day than the day before.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Because even though there was no judgment going into this b. And he has, you know, an optimistic, happy outlook, for the most part, I don't think he had a confidence necessarily in his life. No.

[B]

This is the day his self esteem began.

[A]

Yeah. And he. And he now knows that he loves to spell. And it's. It's. It's wonderful. I just love that button. Apple juice, please. And fun fact. I played Leaf. Coney Bear.

[B]

I was gonna say that's your part.

[A]

It sure is, Honey boo boo child. I haven't done a full production of it. So at Emerson, these. There's a senior class called directing a musical. Essentially. I don't think that was the title of it. I don't know. But their final project was each student had to direct 20 to 30 minutes of a musical of their choice, and they had to figure out how they were going to do that musical in 20 to 30 minutes. And all the underclassmen got to audition. It was always a. They were called the mini musicals. It was always a very big deal. It was at the end of the first semester and my freshman year, I got to do hairspray and spelling bee. And I was Link. I like, I was a leaf and spelling bee. And I think we only had three of the characters. We had Leaf, we had Marcy, and we had Logan. Then we had, obviously, Rona and Mitch Mahoney, and we sort of, like, figured that out. And the one thing I was very proud of myself, of which it was a thing I stole from 30 Rock, is I got to do. I'M not that smart. And I did the, you know, finger pop. I thought. And then Marcy does her song and Logan does her song. And then I had to come back up and do a word. And at the very last second, I had a thought. And I go up to the podium and they go, Mr. Coney Bear, spell such and such. And I slowly start to spit something out, and it's the finger puppet, which I take out, put on my finger, wipe it on my shirt, and put it back out.

[B]

That's amazing.

[A]

Thank you. I stole that From Kathy Geisler 30 Rock when she puts the race car in her mouth. But it was one. It's my. One of my proudest acting moments because I, I. A lot of times we look back on moments that were good for us as a performer. Like, oh, yes, when I crushed it. But, like, I still. I talk to people who still remember that moment. Like, oh, like, my dad came to see that mini musical to see what I was doing at Emerson. And, like, he peed himself laughing at that moment. Like, was happy that I was pursuing musical theater. And I'm like, I wish my parents were there to see it.

[B]

I mean, honestly, when people are like, I remember that. That was so funny. That's all. That's all I need.

[A]

Yeah, well, anything that sticks with someone that long just makes you. I don't know. I've talked about this before. I love how passionate and, like, the young theater fans are these days. And I've been a passionate young theater fan all my life. But there's a little bit of these younger fans who get so passionate about one show every season, and then the next season it's something else, and they kind of forget about the show they were so in love with the year before. And it makes me go. I'm not sure if your love of the show runs as deep as you think it does. And granted, you're 15, your brain's not fully developed, but there's something to be said for connecting to something in a really magnificent way that lasts your whole life.

[B]

Well, sometimes you have the fans that only like the original cast.

[A]

Oh, God.

[B]

As someone that's replaced a few times on Broadway. When I was in the Grease revival, the last Greece revival, the. The Grease heads would, like, scream during the opening number. When the T Birds each made their entrance. I was new and they weren't screaming for me. And so they were always by the stage door. And I finally went to one, I said, you're telling the audience not to like me? Yeah, you gotta scream for Me too.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And they were like, oh, okay, that's.

[A]

Yeah, that's something. That's. I will say that is a positive change with young theater fans, is that they are much more open and positive about replacements now than they were in the mid-2000s. Yeah. The. The Spring Awakening, the Guilty Ones. There was like a five year period and we did talk about this on the Spring Awakening episode of like, the toxic fan culture of that period where it was OBC or nothing. And I have spoken to some people who were replacements in other shows. They're like, oh, yeah, like, fans were not nice. Like, it took six months to get fans to like, warm up to me because I wasn't so and so. And I'm like, I'm so sorry, but it's.

[B]

I know.

[A]

I'm glad that it's better.

[B]

Our spelling bee fans were very loyal to everybody. I mean, it was a hard job, I'll tell you.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

I mean, we'll go back to the characters, but it was a heart. I've listened to your podcast. There's tangents. It was a hard job because management didn't want us to go on and. And those nine people were so loyal to each other that they were afraid to call out and they didn't trust us because we weren't with them through the development of it all. And so, like, I had a put in one day because Jesse had 102 fever, and then he went on that night because they didn't want to miss the show. But, like, now if you have 102 fever, you don't do the show. But, like, they were too afraid to, like, not do the show with each other once the dam broke. The dam broke and I was on all the time. But then management came and made a speech and shook a playbill when me and one of the other understudies were on and watched the stuffers fall out and literally said to us, do you know how much the. The audience hates to see this? And I was like, I'm about to go on. Don't do this in front of me. And it was hard to be a part of, like, the cool show where those nine people got invited everywhere to every event in town and we didn't exist in that way. Yeah, the fans always made us feel really loved. And the. The fans actually, like, like to be a part of. Of us going on and being able to see, like, say, I've seen Todd play this part in this part and this part, you know, so that was cool.

[A]

But I get that when. When you're in something that's a hit and it sometimes doesn't always feel like you're a part of it being the hit.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And that's something that, I mean, I'm glad that we're sort of acknowledging more anyway, the importance and magic of understudies and standbys and swings and so many people who are so talented, who are getting their start in these fields that will go on to amazing careers. And it's like, be open, be supportive, and just like, be inclusive. But I mean, that's one of those things where I'm like, I wonder if social media had existed around that time, if it would have been different. I feel like if any show that season, that would be the show where you guys would have been like, the understudies. Does that make sense?

[B]

Like, and we actually. Dickie dibella, who used to run media stuff at Ars Nova, like, created this. There's. I don't know if it exists anywhere, but he made this whole thing about the understudies at spelling bee. And we created this, like, it's this video that's somewhere and we did, like, extreme versions of ourselves. And so I was the one just hoping to go on all the time. And Kate Weatherhead was the one sitting by the monitor critiquing people's performances. And then Lisa Ewan was always in. Always in her show panties just in case, and had a picture of Charlotte d' Amboise and Cheyenne Jackson on her mirror because they had both. Charlotte and Bois was on the Sweet Charity tour and had just taken over when. When Christine Applegate broke her leg and Cheyenne Jackson was not supposed to be the star of I'll Shook up and had just like assumed that when. I think it was Jared Emick opted out or something. And so she was like, really inspired by, like, understudies. Done. Good.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

So. And then Willis was asleep all the time. But he like made this like 12 minute video. I think it was called Spell It Like It Is or something that was like super popular on like broadway.com or. I don't even know what the hell it was. But Vadim always said that we were the most famous understudies in town. Vadim Fichner, who was our conductor. But anyway, should we go back to characters?

[A]

I mean, we were talking about you as a character, so why not? But. But this all comes back to everything. I will say, for all the tangents you've been going on, they've always been related to this.

[B]

Like, okay, good.

[A]

If you were really listening to the podcast, I'd. You know that, like, I'm talking about one thing, and all of a sudden I'm talking about Sally Murphy's IBDB page. But I digress.

[B]

I appreciate your love of Sally Murphy.

[A]

I really do love her. Back to Spelling Bee, Leaf. We talked about Leaf and his song I'm not that Smart, and my hilarious take of it that only was 20 minutes long. I would love to see a performance if you do it. I'm sure you. I'm sure someone has gifted you someone.

[B]

No, I've never seen a bootleg, and I'm cool with it. I feel really good about it, and I don't want to see it. There was once upon a time someone wrote me, and because I'm not someone that's on the boards, but someone wrote me, and they're like, hey, someone just posted their, like, dream cast of Spelling Bee from. From Broadway. All the different companies that were out, professional companies that were out, they cast you as Coney Bear. And I was like, oh, that's so nice. And so I went and looked at it, and I'm like, that's great. Literally the first comment after it, todd is Coney Bear. He's too fat for that. And I was like, oh, my God. Why did I look? I was fine. I was really in a medium place. I was at a 5, I shot to a 10, and now I'm a 2.

[A]

Because, listen, if I. If I could give you a logical answer to that, I would be a very sane man. I do the exact same thing with a lot of other stuff. There. There. There are things I don't need to do and, in fact, are simpler. I've made it so much harder for myself not to emotionally cut, and yet I'll still take those extra three steps and be like, let me swim around to, like, look this shit up or find this person or do this thing. And it never feels good after, but I still do it. Because people are complicated. But.

[B]

But it's also awful when they do that stuff and their name is, like, mermin2.

[A]

Sure.

[B]

And we, like, we don't know who you are.

[A]

No. That's the thing about Broadway World that I hate is the. Because people can hide behind their anonymity. Is that the right way to say it?

[B]

Yeah, you nailed it.

[A]

Thank you. Because they can hide behind that. They feel like they can be as vicious as they want and, oh, who cares? Like these, you know, because they also look at Broadway actors the same way they look at movie actors, which is also stupid. It's like, oh, they're not people, they're stars. Like, they're still human beings who have feelings and vulnerabilities like anyone else. Like, maybe just treat them with respect and kindness like you would a relative that you like. Not a. Treat them like a relative you like, not a relative you hate. And just, you know, I don't know. And also just like, think better. Think, think better. Have, have, have better critical thinking. I know people, Todd. I can't stress this enough. So many people are so shallow and stupid. I hate it. I want people to be smarter. I'm always just. And. And I feel this way when I go see shows now when people, like, are checking their phones. I was sitting next to a girl who was texting half of the time during Prima Facie. Still, like, claiming to enjoy, but, like, she would take out her phone like every five minutes, like, return a text. I'm like, can you be smarter for, like, for a minute? Just be smarter for a minute. Put it away and absorb the show. You are robbing yourself of the money you spent on this.

[B]

I mean, part of the thing of going to the theater, like, I love television, but I can't watch television without playing a game on my phone at the same time. But I go to the theater, so it's the only thing I focus on. Right.

[A]

Well. Well, the thing is they are robbing themselves of their time and their money because the whole reason why theater is so unique. And yes, it's expensive for many capitalist reasons. But another thing is also, it's never gonna happen again. Not the way you're seeing it that day. Yes, the show gets performed again, but maybe an actor calls out, even if it's the same company of actors, their days are different from the day before. So, like, how they enter the stage is gonna be different. And on top of that, the entire audience is different. The whole experience is just like always gonna be slightly different than the night before. You are seeing a once in a lifetime experience absorb all of it.

[B]

And to bring us back to the topic, no show was a better example of that than spelling bee. Absolutely. The show was drastically different every night.

[A]

Absolutely. I hope you can love me, America. I'm gunning for first pride.

[B]

Here's why you should love me, America.

[A]

My needs I cannot overemphasize. I make myself crazy being what my dad hope I'll be. But what about me, dad? What about me? Jesus Christ, what about me? Practice your breathing, Logan. Though I practice yoga. I want to talk about Logan Schwartz and Grubeniere.

[B]

Logan Schwartz and Grubeniere was very much a creation of Sarah Saltzberg, who was the original Logan Schwartz and Grubiner and was also a part of Crepuscule.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

I believe, as far as I know, Dan Fogler and Sarah and Jay were. Jay Reese, who was the principal, were a part of the farm.

[A]

Vice principal. They won't.

[B]

Vice principal.

[A]

Because they won't let him be principal.

[B]

Darn. Sorry. But she. Logan is very tightly wound.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

Logan is the reason why some school somewhere tried to, like some town tried to cancel the production because Logan has two gay dads. And her dads are loving and wonderful, but they put a lot of pressure on her.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

Which I actually thought was so, like, I remember someone like, I hate that the gay dads aren't a good example. I'm like, nobody's parents are good in the show, first of all. But also what I like about it is, like, we didn't have marriage equality yet when the show opened.

[A]

Nope.

[B]

So. And I think it's still a thing. The pressure to be the gay dads and people looking and you're like, you. You are going to achieve. So you can prove that having queer parents is a good thing. Like, yeah, there's a lot of pressure in that way. But this, I think this is also a child that has stress issues.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And she lets her parents down and she has to learn. I think she probably learns the least because she still comes back. Like, we hope that, like, we. We would hope that, like, she has an awakening and then, like, goes and hangs out with the hippie kids and smokes a little pot or something, you know, not that I do that. I really don't. I'm a good kid.

[A]

But.

[B]

But, like, sure, her. Her awakening is that she needs to achieve for herself and not for other people because she has so much stress.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And her father also tries to cheat. He pours the coke on the floor and tries to throw off Barfy's magic foot.

[A]

Yep.

[B]

And that is such a. A huge deal of stress for her because she has. She's such a moral person that, like, she wants to win by being the best. So.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

I love her.

[A]

Have you read the Velvet Rage?

[B]

Of course. I mean, I read it. It's right behind you on that show.

[A]

Sure is.

[B]

I read it. I threw across the room. I read it. I threw across the room.

[A]

It's a very simplistic viewpoint, but there is a lot of truth to it. It's basically 300 pages of being like, we, as gay men, we hate ourselves and have a Lot of trauma. Which is why we always strive to be, you know, certain kinds of ways. Like, we have to be the wittiest, we have to be the hottest, we have to be the whatever. And I'm like, there's truth to that. But also mostly what it is is just sort of like always needing to prove people who are trying to bring you down wrong. I mean, not, not to equate it with any other kind of suppressed, any kind of oppressed demographic. But you know, we always, we hear from our fellow bipoc actors and writers, they say, like, I have to be 10 times as good to like get half as far. It's like, yeah, any oppressed demographic has to kind of do that. Where it's like, if I'm going to show you that you can be gay and be a good parent and be successful, like, I'm going to be a successful whatever I am and my child is going to be smart and they are going to achieve and all these things. And there is, there is a strength in trying to give your kids so much and try to like, want them to be the best and have or not want them to be the best, but like want the best for them. And I think some parents mistake wanting the best for their child for wanting their child to be the best. Because one is options and what is pressure, right? And that's the thing is like, I think with Logan, her arc is less that she likes has because so many of these other kids have these giant 180s, right? Like when we'll get to the Marcy park of it all. With Logan, it's as you said, it's less about not doing any of this anymore and more about like, if I'm gonna do this, it's gotta be for me. Because that's her whole crux of her song. Woe is me is like, what about me? Right? We keep talking about all these things for me and these things about me, but what about me? And so she does come back eventually to win the spelling bee. And I think it says something that when she finally wins on her seventh try, it's that she keeps failing and keeps coming back and less of a like a I gotta win. It's like not winning the first time doesn't mean I won't ever win. And failing this one time didn't break me.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And which means I can only get stronger from here on out. And I'm gonna keep failing and I'm gonna keep succeeding. And that is life. And that I think is a wonderful lesson to Learn. And she has a very sad goodbye, which would imply that she doesn't learn as much because she has that awful year of. She's like, if you. I hope you can still love me, America. I gave my best try. If you don't still love me, America, I understand why you hate losers. So do I. I'm like, that's devastating for a 10 year old to sing. But there is. She does eventually leave with sort of an acceptance of like, I lost and so goodbye. But she does. But we learn in the epilogue that she does in fact come back.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And I think that is as good a lesson as any. That you come back swinging again and don't let other people's expectations define you. And it's okay if you, if you know what your parent wants you to do is something that you also want to do. What wonderful synergy. But don't define your wants as either your parents wants or the opposite of what your parents want. Sometimes they'll line up because you know, those people are like, oh, I don't want to do that. Because my parents love it. I'm like, well, what if you actually liked it?

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Because people like things for a reason.

[B]

If I had kids, though, I would not want them to be actors.

[A]

If I had kids, I wouldn't want them to date actors. But they can do anything else they want. They can do anything else they want. I get no real end. Marcy Park.

[B]

Marcy park is a mystery in the beginning.

[A]

She's a transfer and an invention of Ms. Deborah Craig.

[B]

Yeah, Yeah. I love Deborah Craig.

[A]

Speaking of Sally Murphy, that's how I bonded with her. Was at a birthday party and I mentioned Sally Murphy and she acknowledged it. I was like, you know Sally Murphy, she's like, bitch. I was an acting student in the 90s. Of course I know Sally Murphy like Steppenwolf, honey.

[B]

So Marcy park is a bit of a mystery. And she. We find out that she went to nationals last year and placed top 10. Yeah, she. And that's what she says to Chip. She's like, oh, I guess I only remember the top 10.

[A]

Yes. Because Chip won and went to nationals the year before. And he's like, you remember me? I only remember the top 10.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Which, the way that Deborah says it, it's not a burn. She just says it so matter of factly. Right.

[B]

I mean, and that's what's great about Marcy because Marcy has like almost an entire personality awakening. So we know. All we know about Marcy is she's in a Catholic school girl uniform. So she might be Catholic schoolgirl. And she does. Jesus does appear to her in the show.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

But I think that, like, almost similarly to Logan, Marcy's Korean and she might be like, first. Like a daughter of first generation Korean Americans, which also put a lot of pressure on their kids to really achieve. Right. Or not always, but that's a common thing that has happened. But she is nearly perfect. She's like, does almost everything perfectly. And I'm trying to think, what do they say about her when she says.

[A]

No, I'm not, she nails a word yet again. And Rona says, Ms. Park is all business.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Is that what she says? She's all business? Yeah.

[B]

No, I'm not. And that's the first time that, like, in the. That's when she starts changing a little bit in the show.

[A]

Yeah. Because Marcy's also probably the second youngest there, if Logan is the youngest. I think because Marcy skips two grades and they say she's like, on track to become the youngest.

[B]

I think they always said it was Logan and then Coney Bear was the next youngest. That's how they always talked about it with us.

[A]

But.

[B]

But Most people were 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, I think. Yeah, I think chip is 13.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

God, it's so long ago that I.

[A]

Did this job and yet, like two years. It's all coming back to you.

[B]

Yeah. So that's Marcy. And then Marcy talks to Jesus and says, would you hate me if I lost?

[A]

Would you be. Would you be mad at me? Mad at me or mad at me or upset with me? No, I think. Would you be disappointed if I lost? I think that's. I have it here. She. She accidentally. It's what I gotta say. It's one of my favorite moments. And the bootleg doesn't do it justice because at second stage, it was fully proscenium. And then at Circle in the Square, it was three quarter thrust, and you guys used the vombs at circle in the square. So when she. Marcy's given camouflage as her word, and she says, jesus, can you think of a harder word than that? And then Jose on Godmix says, of course I can, my child. And then he showed up opposite her, like high up in the voms. At Circle in the Square.

[B]

I wouldn't even call it the voms. You're like, in the audience.

[A]

Yeah, in the audience.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

But like high up. And Deborah Craig, just like I remember she, like, crouched down on the floor sort of, you know, Jesus is here also. I remember a friend of mine went to one of the shows you guys had. I think it was like the night of the Oscars because. Yeah, it was. It was. It was Oscar night for some reason. You guys had a show that night or something because Jose Yana came out, said something, and then, like, took a pause and said to the audience, like, and for anyone who cares, memoirs of a Geisha just won best cinematography, then walked off stage.

[B]

I mean, that's the kind of show we were. We had that we could do stuff like that. But by the way, it's Jose Lana.

[A]

Sorry, Jose Lana.

[B]

No, no, it's cool.

[A]

I've never had to say his name before. And so I was overcompensating. I'm sorry. I'm a bad white person. No, no. But you get to be wrong.

[B]

You get to be wrong.

[A]

But, you know, those white people are like, I'm going to overdo it. It's like, no, yeah, yeah. It's not Chemi for Aniston. It's Jennifer Aniston.

[B]

So I. I was the second cover for Chip.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

No one expected me to ever have to go on. And then I went on suddenly and the cast forgot that I would be Jesus. And so when I appeared in that straight long wig, nobody spoke on. Like, Deborah couldn't speak for a while because I looked like Mama Cass, which is again, a very old reference. And no one could talk for so long because I looked so ridiculous as Jesus.

[A]

And. Oh, you also speak French for a second. I'm here for you now, Marcy. C' est pas ta que je suis.

[B]

I don't remember that.

[A]

Yeah. Oh, it's. Would you be disappointed with me if I lost? Of course not. But, Marcy, I also won't be disappointed with you if you win. You're saying it's up to me then. Yes. And also, this isn't the kind of thing I care very much about. It's. I remember that line. Just absolutely annihilating the audience.

[B]

Well, okay, this is such a weird reference. When Lisa Welchel was on Survivor. Lisa Welchel is Blair from the Facts of Life. She was on Survivor one season, and she's a very religious person. And there were a bunch of religious people on Survivor that year, and they were like, let's pray. Let's pray to that we last. And she said, do you think Jesus cares who wins Survivor? And I was like, yes. Because, like, sometimes when you. Like, I grew up loving the Facts of Life, and I'm like, oh, she's all Jesus y now. Sorry. Jesus lovers. But, like, I totally, like, you can love whatever you want, but, like, Jesus does not care who wins the soccer game. There are important things in the world. And Jesus doesn't care who wins the Putnam County Spelling Bee.

[A]

Exactly. And I'm glad that it was mentioned. And then I feel like. So maybe I'm wrong about this, but I feel like the difference between Marcie and Logan is that so much comes so easy to Marcie that, like, doing all the things that her parents want her to do isn't necessarily overwhelming. It's just sort of, like, numbing after all.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

It's.

[B]

It's not hard. She's just a genius.

[A]

Yeah, she's. She just is incredibly gifted. Whereas Logan actually, like, Logan is incredibly smart, but does have to work harder.

[B]

Really hard.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And, like, stays up late at night and doesn't sleep much in his work, you know?

[A]

Yeah. And. And there's a part of Logan also that this does not want to disappoint. And Marcy just, like, knows she won't, and so therefore, nothing. It's not stressful.

[B]

We don't really learn about Marcy's parents. That was just, like, an inference.

[A]

Yeah. There's one line she has. It's what launches her big song, because every kid has a big song. Logan has woe is me. Leaf has I'm not. I'm not that smart. Olive has the I love you song.

[B]

And my friend, the dictionary.

[A]

And my friend the dictionary. Hello, leading role. And then Barfi has Magic Foot. Marcy's song is I speak six languages. And what launches it is, you know, Rona. So the other. One of the other major parts of the show that's so fucking funny, is as each speller comes up, Rona Peretti always has a new bit of trivia about each speller.

[B]

Right.

[A]

One of my favorite ones, and I'm glad that it's officially in the script, but a child prodigy so and so is currently writing an opera in braille. And then I remember there was one, the day that I saw it, where one of the audience members came up and she said, so and so recently got lost in their backyard. And I remember that. And when we did it at Emerson, I had our. Rona put that as leaf's trivia bit. Mr. Coney Bear recently got lost in his backyard, which I just thought it was fitting, but. And then on top of that, Vice Principal Panch does all the words and the words. Does all the words in the sentences, which are hilarious.

[B]

So we would write those descriptions on stage. Pants would Usually when it was Jay and and Lisa Howard, Jay would like have cards and he would write things and Jay would be in the back of the house and talk to the person that chose the guest spellers and he'd get a little piece of information about them. If there was a bald speller, you would always say so and so is recovering from head lice.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

You know, and that would get a big laugh. But then it was fun to write about. And so when I first went on for Panch, I was like, do you trust me? Because I'm gonna do this. And it was tricky for a bit. Like Lisa was like really dependent on Jay. And Lisa had a list of things she could always choose from that were always surefire. But if you had something that was really specific, you know, when you had an old person and she would say so and so lives with her grandmother, must be a story there. And so weird and nebulous and it was so funny. But like the ones that we always remembered were the ones that bombed. And we had a boy named Sanjay Gold was his name. And I think he was one of the national spelling bee people. And you're not even gonna know this, you're too young. But There was a TV show called Solid Gold in the 80s.

[A]

You wanna know why I know about solid gold?

[B]

Why?

[A]

Two reasons. 30 rock. Let's think about it usually means. Ends with me watching Solid Gold in my basement on prom night. And then also fuckin Kimberly Akimbo. Her mom wanted to be a dancer on Solid Gold. And Kimberly says it's never too late. And her mom says yes it is usually. In fact, Solid Gold isn't even on TV anymore.

[B]

Oh totally.

[A]

That's the only reason I.

[B]

There's the theme song to Solid Gold just went Solid Gold. And so Jay, the vice principal called up Mr. Sanjay Gold and Lisa Howard just went Sanjay Gold. And nobody laughed. Which just meant all of us on stage just had to like were dying laughing inside. I mean, because it was fun to take a big swing and see what happened. And it really is fun. Fucking funny. But just nobody got it. Yeah, there weren't enough people in the house that like lived through that to understand what it was.

[A]

No, there was one in the Lincoln center video. The. The teenage girl who goes up to spell, she's wearing like, I think she's wearing like a gray sweater and white pants. And she goes up and Lisa Howard says, you know, so and so is looking forward to the day when her favorite fashions come out in color and like gets like a chuckle from the audience. I'm like, that's cute, but it's shit like that. Point is that Marcy park comes up. Oh, yes, Our lady of Intermittent Sorrows. And Rona says, Ms. Park speaks five languages. And Marcy says, no, I don't. She goes, don't you? It says here you speak five languages. And Marcy says, oh. She goes, it also says you're such and such. Marcy goes, yes. And does it also say that I only get four hours of sleep and that I'm not allowed to cry and that I hide. That I hide in the bathroom cabinet? And it's this very long beat. And then Lisa Howard, with all the earnestness in the world, just goes, no, it doesn't say that. And then it goes into, I speak six languages. But that one sentence is all we really get about her home life. And it's not that, like, she's, you know, getting beat or anything like that, but it's just she has her own kind of parental trauma that while. Whereas Logan's parents are always just like, kind of persistently, lovingly, but persistently pushing her, Marcy's parents just, like, are probably a little more cold and standoffish and like, matter of factly, like, you will win. You will memorize. You will get the A. And just the. The line of, I'm not allowed to cry, that just hits me in my penis, like, it hurts me so much to hear that. And she's. And the way that Deborah said it was so, like, dry and. And like, even though it was a matter of fact, like, there was kind of like, Marcy's not dead inside. She knows that this is not normal. She goes to school with a bunch of other girls who. And watches them all interact with each other and with their parents. She knows that what she has with her home life is not the regular of other girls. I should say. I don't like the word. Normal is not the regular. It's not the familiar. And that is the beginning of her breaking point. And that number is also a wonderful just fucking show off number. Of all the languages of doing the splits. I love the fucking playing the piano. Marcy goes and starts playing the piano. That always gets a huge laugh.

[B]

So quick story, go for it. Just like, Chip was my second cover. Marcy was Kate Weatherhead second cover. So you have to, you know, do a cartwheel to roll a baton. You have to do, like, some tricks through it. And you have to kick Vadim usually, who is our conductor, off the piano and play the piano. And she, Kate Weatherhead had never taken a piano lesson in her life. So she basically learned how to play those bars. Not great, but could do it. But you have to run over and just play. And so she could never find the notes in time. So they had made this contingency plan that if Kate went on, they would put little pink stickers on the keys where her feet. Her fingers had to start. And so she was on for her first time a year into the run or so. And we had a guest conductor who was like, what are these stickers? And peel them all off the piano. And she went over to play and was like. And literally just banged on all the keys, she said, because she couldn't find what her finger.

[A]

It's all if. That's always how it is, isn't it?

[B]

It's.

[A]

It's those. That, like, perfect storm of things lining up. Oh, my God, What a great story.

[B]

Which brings us to my second cover, Chip.

[A]

Mm.

[B]

Chip Tolentino, who won last year's bee, went to nationals, placed, like, 45th or something. Yeah. And he is. He's the bully. And he's probably the bully. He's dressed like a boy Scout. At least in the Broadway production. It doesn't actually say that in the script.

[A]

Yeah. He's the big cheese going in.

[B]

Yeah. And he comes in super cocky, and he is having an adolescence awakening when he sees Marigold Cony Bear Leaf's sister in the audience. And gets a boner.

[A]

Yep. And to add insult to injury, the word he gets when he has his boner is tit up.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And so he has to spell tit up. And he only. He misses a T. Supposed to be T I, T, T U P. And I think he does T I, T u p. Um, and he gets out and he sings a song that there's an alternate version for for any schools or. Or Catholic schools that object to the original version.

[B]

What's it called?

[A]

It's so the orig. The original song is called My Unfortunate Erection. And I believe if you object to that lyric, there's an alternate version called My Unfortunate Distraction or something like that. And it's just complete. It's desexualized, obviously.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

And, like, if you read the MTI script with the note from Bill Finn, he's like, the original lyric is better. He's like, it's funnier. It's better. It's what we wanted. He goes, only do this version if you are convinced that, like, there's gonna be blowback about the other version, which is fair and smart, because that is one of the things that sometimes, like, you know, parents at schools have issues with. Like, their kids will come home from school rehearsal for spelling bee, they'll see that song and be like, absolutely not. And so this school can be like, we're not doing that version. We're doing this version. Like, here is the tamer lyric. But also, like, I don't know. That's one of those things where, like, it's something. Puberty is something. Your kid who's doing the show is going through there. You're not corrupting them. They have first hand experience. And in fact, if you don't tell them what's going on with their bodies, you go from spelling bee to spring awakening as we talk about. You go from being Olive Ostrovsky to Venla Bergman and that girl dies. So keep your child alive and let them sing My Unfortunate Erection. That's the lesson here, folks. My unfortunate erection is destroying my perfection. It is my recollection that everything I once did, I did perfectly. Last year's champ defeated because of Marigold Coney Bear because there's something and not a thing between us. I don't blame my brain, but I do blame my penis. My unfortunate.

[B]

And they didn't want us to have.

[A]

Vibrato because of the childlikeness of it.

[B]

Yeah, yeah. Celia was kind of the only person that was allowed to have vibrato that was a kid. Oh, and I guess Barfy could have like a, like that kind of a vibrato, but like, otherwise they really try. And I'm like, it is. There's a point in Pandemonium where Chip has to sing a B flat and swing on a rope. And so when I got put on the first time, I said, okay, I'm not good at either of these, so let's choose one. And when I went to swing practice swing on the rope, I fell on the floor. So it's like, I guess I'm singing the B flat. And so I sang the B flat and swung the rope like I was a cowboy. And the audience didn't know what they missed.

[A]

No. As long as it looks like pandemonium, that's all that matters, baby. Yeah, I get that though. And that is difficult because vibrato is, you know, a natural occurrence when your voice is healthily in the public and.

[B]

It brings you on Pitch girl.

[A]

Yeah, sure do. Sure do. But what was I say? Also, I was watching the stars in the house for this show again, for research. I do the deepest of dives. And Jose Lana talked about how on one of the adult nights, what he would do because there's a moment he. Chip is, you know, selling the concessions. I'm. I'm nailing it. You are nailing it now, guys, this is Peggy Sue Got Married because I have a second chance and I'm nailing it this time.

[B]

Oh my God. How many more references can we make that nobody listening to your podcast understands?

[A]

I closed Solid Gold.

[B]

Peggy Sue Got Married.

[A]

I closed out one of my episodes. People know. Cheers. People know your name there. I closed out an episode once with an audio of Ruthie Henshaw singing from Peggy Sue Got Married the Musical just because I needed something of hers that wasn't identical.

[B]

I auditioned for that years ago.

[A]

Did you know it was supposed to.

[B]

Come to the States? I don't think it did.

[A]

It didn't because they realized it was bad. Because Hot Take, most original British musicals are bad. They are. There's a reason why a lot of them stay there. We have only gone Witches of East here once and it was regionally speaking. There's a reason for it. But. So Jose Lana talks about how for my unfortunate erection for one of the adult nights, there's a moment in that song where Chip, he's, you know, he's throwing candy out to the audience because he's supposed to be selling it, but he's basically like, fuck it. I hate this. I hate my life. Here you go. Anyone for Eminem's throwing it all out and he has two bags of popcorn, one in each hand that he's hitting a big high notes of the Mayan Fortunet popcorn. And it's a very funny moment. And Jose talked in the Stars in the House that what he would do on the adult nights was that when the bags would pop, he would sort of imply that Chip had just had his first finish.

[B]

I mean that's what it represented even in the non dirty shows. But I think he had a.

[A]

He was more overt about it.

[B]

I think at the. At the Dirty Bees. He would have like, you know how an earthquake has like a post quake or whatever. Ah. After it.

[A]

He would do what Jane Krakowski does in Call from the Vatican. You know, when that. When that orgasms on her big high note. But yeah, I saw that. I was like, I would have liked to have watched Jose Lana have a, you know, reverberation post post ejac. And then I mean his. What's his arc really, other than his art kind of comes in the epilogue when he's like. He came to realize with old with as he got older, that the hormones he was going through were actually a good thing because he came to enjoy his erection, as did many others.

[B]

Yeah. I mean, his journey is not. I mean, I would like to think that his journey is because he lost. He doesn't become, like, you know, Donald Trump Jr. You know, like a monster. He doesn't become, like, an alpha male that's gotten everything he's wanted in life, you know, and becomes a bad person. But I also think that it's also just an acceptance of his sexuality. And.

[A]

Sure. I mean, I think the failure for all those kids is a wonderful learning lesson for all of them. And ironically, William Barfy, who wins and, one could argue, should be one of the biggest cases of needing to lose to, you know, tone himself down. He ends up winning and not becoming a monster because he learns that you can succeed and not alienate people. You can make friends as you.

[B]

I mean, that moment. God, I'm gonna cry. That moment where Olive tells him to win.

[A]

Yeah, it's okay. Barf.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

It's such a great moment, but because there's a moment where Mitch Mahoney, where the sort of the action stops because Mitch Mahoney is doing. Is. He's the comfort counselor for community service. Right. And he's doing his, like, parole community service. Exactly. He even says, like, I. He says some line about, you know what he. Oh, like, I want to, like, smack some of these kids to, you know, teach them how hard life really can be goes. But that would be violating my parole, so I won't do that. I offer them a juice box instead.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

But I love that moment because, you know, Mitch has actually had a hard life. He's actually, like, seen some stuff, done some stuff, and, like, had some repercussions. And these kids, while they have their own baggage, still have, like, relatively sheltered lives. And he's watching them get all riled up about this spelling bee, and he's like, God damn it, I want to shake you. But then he starts to realize how the fact that it matters so much to them when they lose it, how that devastation for them, even if it seems silly to you, it's very real to them. And that's when he takes his own comfort counseling a little more seriously, or at least more earnestly. And it's. I know. It's this. It's this wonderful, compact moment. For me, anyway, when I watched. It was watching all these kids learning that losing won't break them, but the devastation is still there. And watching the devastation softens Mitch a bit, and his epilogue is that he learns that he has a talent for this and ends up being in contact still with a lot of the kids over the years, which I think is. I remember. Honestly, I'll get welled up. I remember.

[B]

Fuck.

[A]

I always remember in the epilogue when he said that he kept in contact with all. With many of those kids over the years. And the entire cast stands up and says at once, dear Mitch. And they start talking. I'm like, God damn it.

[B]

It's worth acknowledging, yes, the. Like, the 2005 of it all, that Mitch is the only black character in the show, and Mitch is a felon. And I don't think any of the creators would do that now.

[A]

No.

[B]

And I don't know how Derek Baskin, who brilliantly played Mitch, and I love Derek Baskin. I don't know how he feels about. Was a joyful time for him. I know that. But, like, I think, you know, we've learned a little more. And I think. I don't think a lot of spelling bees. I. I feel. I think Mitch can be black. I don't think I get to really make these decisions, but I don't think. I think if Mitch is your only black character, then you. You have a bit of a problem.

[A]

Yeah. I think the importance is to show that Mitch is. He just does not fit into the quiet, indoor world of the bee. And that doesn't have to be a race thing. That just is.

[B]

Just that. I mean, they would always say, Mitch is the smartest person on that stage, but you're still saying, like, the only black person is a felon. Now. When I was first hired, they wanted my second cover to be Mitch, and they wanted me to wear the dreadlock wig. And I was like, no. And I. I said to the costume. Someone in costumes, I said, I think you need to dress me like Turtle from Entourage. If I'm gonna do this, like, that's what I think I'd have to look like. So then somehow it got miscommunicated, and one of the general managers said, todd, I don't know what you're thinking, but why did you tell costumes to dress you like a turtle? So then it became this running joke. Because he enters down the stairs, he has, like, an entrance that I would just be in this big shell.

[A]

You were with Frog and Toad all of a sudden.

[B]

And we would always decorate each other's doors when we first went on for a character. And so the understage would always decorate my door with turtles, because Mitch was a turtle when I played him. Now Ultimately, I said to the. I said when we were in understudy rehearsal, I'm like, I'm going to sing Chip much better than I'm going to sing Mitch. And so that we went over there, which I appreciated.

[A]

I will say, like, there's other. There's other humor in Spelling Bees, specifically in some of the sentences that I don't know if they're. Now if they're still in the script or if it was just stuff that was invented at the time, but some jokes that rely on race that probably would not land today.

[B]

Yeah. And some of it, I. Some of it, I think, is meant to be a joke about pants.

[A]

Sure.

[B]

Right. But like, I. I also understand that someone could say, that's hurtful. I don't want to hear that. Yeah.

[A]

And because it should be emphasized, pants is the one writing these sentences for these words. Right. And so they are ridiculous sentences. But I. But again, that's sort of the conversation to have of, like, is that. Are we. Is the joke still now how. How informative this is of Panch, but with this sentence, or is this joke now actually about race in a way that's not. That's uncomfortable. Yeah. Because you can still have them. It's just. It is a conversation.

[B]

And they. None of them. For people that don't know the show, it was. There was nothing disgusting. You know, there was just like. Like inferences and things that I. I totally understand. Someone could say, oh, I don't appreciate that.

[A]

Yeah. I mean, even. Even the Mitch Mahoney of it all. Like, you know, Mitch is intelligent and he's given grace and he's given moments to shine. And the actor who plays Mitch also does double as Olive's father and also as Schwartz, as Logan Schwartz and Grubiner's father. So, again, like, everyone gets moments to be versatile, but. Yeah, no, you're right. Like, there is. There is something that has to be addressed. If that is the one black actor you have in the show playing that role, it's like, well, what are.

[B]

It's.

[A]

What are we saying with that? Because you know that it's things that people are going to think about and talk about, and you want to make sure that people are focusing on the show and not on the optics and not thinking one character is one thing because of race. Like, do you want to do your best to make sure all the characters in Spelling Bee have their moments of egg on face as well as their moments of dignity? And however you go about doing that is your artistic decision, but that is what you Always want to do. And the same way we were talking about that you have magic foot and I love you song in the same show. If they live in that show, you have to make sure the show production you're doing allows both to survive.

[B]

And I mean, that's musical comedy. Like Pickle Taco has to fit in the same thing. Same show as Till there was.

[A]

You sure do.

[B]

Right?

[A]

Yeah. Avenue Q has. There's a fine, fine line. And you can be as loud as the hell you want when you're making love.

[B]

Yeah, these.

[A]

These things do happen that we do.

[B]

Have two more adults to talk about.

[A]

Yes, we do. But before we do that, let's take one last break. Yay. Billy, I beg to differ with you. How do you mean? You're the top. Yeah. You're an arrow collar. You're the top. You're a Coolidge dollar. You're the nimble thread of the. And we're back. Have we gone. We've gone through all the kids.

[B]

We got through all the kids.

[A]

And Mitch.

[B]

We got to Mitch.

[A]

Yeah. Let's talk about them damn adults.

[B]

So Ronalisa Peretti is the host of the Bee. And in the very first moment of the show, we find out in a flashback that she is a previous winner of the Bee. And she's also a real estate agent.

[A]

One of the top realtors of the county.

[B]

But she. Her glory of winning the Bee is kind of what she bases her entire life on. And that's. Rona's kind of sad for that reason.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And Panch is in love with her.

[A]

Very in love with her. I've also always wondered with Rona if she's actually a warm character or if it's just that Lisa Howard is such a warm presence. Because I was reading the script after watching the video, I was like, some of the. Like, it's not that Rona's unfeeling, but Rona is a little bit, like, surface. Yeah. And, like, rule oriented and all this stuff. Like. And not very understanding or accommodating, like, with the whole. So again, a moment that fucking got to me that I. This is a moment that I forgot happened. So all of us. Trowski shows up and is unable to pay the entrance fee because she actually doesn't know that there is an entrance fee.

[B]

Right.

[A]

And I. And Rona's talking to her like a goddamn adult. Like, we don't have your 25 entrance fee. Didn't your parents say anything? And basically, she lets Olive compete with the understanding of like. We will discuss this when the bee is over. Like, yeah. You know, and if it wasn't Lisa Howard, who is the warmest of voices and presences on stage, I'm like, you could have a tight bunned woman be like, we will. Like, we'll talk about it after.

[B]

Yeah, I mean, I do think there's a warmth to her. Jen Simard played it second, which I.

[A]

The fact that I can't find any footage of that, that's crazy. I'm sure it's out there. I'm sure it's out there. But if you've listened to one episode of this podcast, you know that I would bend over for Jennifer Simard in a minute.

[B]

I love her so deeply. She's so kind and fun, and she's the kind of funny, fun actress that wants you to be having fun and be funny too. So I just enjoyed the crap out of Jen Smart. I was there with her very briefly, but. But she. She had a different kind of warmth, and she. You know, no one can dive into musical comedy and be real the way that Jen Simard can. Like, there aren't a lot of people today that can do that.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

But she. I. I feel like she had a little bit of the. Was a little more surfacey than Lisa Howard was.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Yeah, that's.

[A]

But they.

[B]

I do think they both. I think both. Both of their owners were kind people.

[A]

Yeah, well. Or at least nice. Yeah, nice. Maybe not kind, but nice. And maybe got kinder. Because the thing with Olive, and this is the moment that made me cry watching it at the end when it's down to Olive and William, and also. And we get a phone call from Olive's dad in the middle of the bee, which Rona takes for Olive. At first, Rona's like, no, no phone calls. And then Olive's like, please, like, you can tell my dad about the entrance fee. And Swan's like, okay, I'll do that. She goes off stage and she comes back, and basically the answer is, like. He says, we'll discuss that. You'll. He'll discuss it with you. Not even like, oh, sure, whatever. Fine. What. Anyway, but so when the bees over and William wins, like, on a whim. J is. What's Panch's first name? Is it Douglas? Douglas. Douglas Panch. Vice principal Douglas Panch, impromptu, says, oh, and there's a new thing this year. The runner up gets a $25 cash prize, which he gives to Olive. And it says in the script, like, olive has no idea that this is fake. She earnestly thinks that she's won this. She excitedly just gets it right over to Rona, and I can pay it now. And I just. I remembered. All of a sudden, it all flooded out to me. I remember Celia Keenan Bulger, little Celia running over to Lisa Howard with the money, and I'm like, oh, God. And Rhona sees what Douglas has done, and that sort of warms her up a little bit. But then, of course, we go into the epilogue and discover that it did not end well for their romance.

[B]

Yeah. Which brings us to Douglas Panch, who is a man with an anger problem.

[A]

Yes. He was away from his vice principal duties for five years and had. Has now just come back. And he isn't even supposed to be at the Bee, I think. Who? The person who's supposed to be.

[B]

Oh, God, I don't really remember.

[A]

Yes. Yeah. No, but there's something about, like, he's not the normal person doing the sentences and definitions of to be. It's somebody else. He. He moved in at the last second, and he has anger issues. He and William butt heads a lot. He keeps calling him Barfy, not Barfay.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And at one point, William just goes, thank you, Vice Principal Panshee. He goes, it's Pan. She goes, huh, Barfay. And goes back to a scene. But, yeah, he's got an anger problem. He's. He's clearly on edge. And in the epilogue, it says that he courts Rona very intensely for two years, and she ends up taking out a restraining order against him. But he has no regrets because he got to love for a bit, which is, like, a nice, optimistic thing. But.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And it's also in there that Barfi and I'll, like, become friends. And he. She helped him study for the Nationals.

[A]

She helped him study for Nationals, where he came in, like, 45th or something like that. Like, he and Chip both ended up placing low at Nationals, but it doesn't. It doesn't ruin him in the end. I also love that when William wins, he's got a great line. All my whole life, I've only been able to breathe out of one nostril, and today is no exception. So many great moments. What's a favorite song of yours in this show?

[B]

Oh, I knew you were going to ask that question. I will say that, like, musically, I actually think that I speak six languages is kind of the most thrilling. Also, when you play Barfi, you get to, like, be, like, a dream girl in the number, but you. And you can. You only have to mouth it. You don't have to. You Pretend you're singing because it's all female voices. And that number was just really fun to be a part of. I don't. I mean, I. I love Woe Is Me. I love. I mean, I loved Magic Foot and I'm not that smart when I. When I got to do them too. But, like, I don't know. I think. I think I speak six languages. And I'm sorry. I mean, how do you hear the I Love youe song and not cry your eyes out? When I first heard it, when I went to see it at Barrington, I went to see. I went to hang out with Celia and I saw it at Barrington. And as I recall, they did. Like, the cast was also doing a William Finn cabaret, and Bill had just written that song. And so he's like, I want to put this in the cabaret. Because he was just so proud of it. Yeah. I also. I gotta say, I love Second, which is the end of the show, which is like him just spelling and choosing. And they have the little ballet they do together. And it's just a brilliant sequence. It was, I will say vocally, like all the backup. Like, all the group singing is hard in that show. And I had to learn four sets of harmonies. Now, Jay Reese, who played the vice principal, is tone deaf. So there is a baritone line written for Pants that was never sung on Broadway. There was also a counter tenor line written for Barfy that Dan Vogler would just not learn because a lot of them came from the improv world. They weren't like, the most skilled musicians. So I eventually was told, sing the harmony for the character you're supposed to sing. But when you're on, if you find that other people are seeing that harmony and you hear something that's not being sung, please sing that. And I was like, what? And somehow I was able to do it. My ear got. And I like, music theory was not my thing in college, but, like, I got good at that.

[A]

That's why you've been on Broadway, Todd. That's why some people don't make it to Broadway.

[B]

Can I tell you. Can I tell you when I got the job? What happened? So I was the only person cast for Broadway because Lisa Ewan and Willis White were a. Were part of the cast at Second Stage because. Because Derek Baskin and Deborah Craig both had personal days that they needed to take during the Off Broadway run. So they needed to have people. So technically, James Lapine was the COVID of Her Panch Vadim was the COVID for Barfi. They just didn't like you know.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

It's not like now where they. Everyone has an understudy. This was like.

[A]

Yeah. I was gonna say there was a time with Off Broadway limited runs where understudies. Yeah.

[B]

They would just roll the dice.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

So. And then Kate Weatherhead had done a reading of the show when Celia wasn't available before off Broadway, because Celia was.

[A]

A rather late addition to the cast at Barrington, was she not?

[B]

She.

[A]

I think she was of the original company. I think she was the last one to join.

[B]

No, Jose was the last.

[A]

Oh, Jose was last. Okay.

[B]

Because Jose didn't do Barrington.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

So. Yeah. But yes. So I was. I knew they were casting someone to cover Barfy Coney Baron Pants. That was their job. And I was like, this is my job. I can do this. I can fucking do this. I'd never been on Broadway before. I had four auditions. The day of my final audition, I was doing a workshop. The final workshop of In My Life.

[A]

Mm.

[B]

Which is, if you've never heard of In My Life, look that up. It is bonkers.

[A]

It's the Lemon musical.

[B]

Yeah. So I was playing God in the final workshop of my life. I'm 26 years old.

[A]

Yeah, you are.

[B]

And they. Joe, the crazy lunatic that wrote it and directed it, was not letting people out for. For anything. Because when you're. When you were like, we don't really have workshops anymore. We call them something else, but, you know, they own your time. So if you're like, oh, I have an audition for this. He wasn't letting people out. So I went up and we were at new 42, and the audition was at Ripley Greer. But because it was the day before the presentation, they were. They had people in our studio at New 42, like, fitting it for sound. And so that day of rehearsal, we were at Ripley Greer for In My Life. And so I said to the stage manager, I said, I have to go to this final callback. You have to go. And she said, we're gonna do a read through, and we're not gonna do a line through. We're just gonna do a line through because the lines have changed so much. Just go. And I'll just skip your scenes. Just go. And so I went. And because I was the only thing being cast for Broadway, there were like 20 people in the room for my final callback. And I have, you know, the. The Coney Bear stuff, the Barfy stuff, the pants stuff. And I'm trying to say to Tara Rubin, the casting director, hey, I there. I'm doing down the hall. So hopefully, you know. And she. I just don't get a second. And so I walk in and I say, I'm doing a workshop down the hall, so hopefully nobody comes looking for me. And Lapine goes, you can leave now because Lapine likes to scare you in your audition. It is a very famous Lapine thing that he likes to throw a curve ball to see how you're gonna handle it. So I just went, hahaha. And I laughed. And then he said, sing your own song. And I said, my own song because they've given us so much material. And I was like, okay. And so I sang I Met a Girl because that's what was in my book. Compton in Green. Julie Stein, Bells are Ringing. It doesn't sound anything like spelling bee, but it was what was in my book. And so then I do all the stuff and it's fine, but I sit in the hallway. There's just four of us there that day. And they have us sit for a bit and then they tell us we can go. And I go sneak back into rehearsal. And the stage manager says, we skipped your scenes. He didn't notice because he was crazy.

[A]

Yep.

[B]

So on my lunch break, I'm going to Macy's because I want to buy a shirt to wear for the workshop presentation. And I called Celia and I said, I think I blew it. I don't think they like me. Oh, hold on, I'm getting a call. And it was them telling me I got it. And I sat on the floor in Macy's and bawled my eyes out. And then I had to. And then the other secret to this is Rachel Hoffman, who is a casting director at Telsey, I also went to college with. She was a year ahead of me and she had cast In My Life. And I kept saying, like, I was broke. And it was a few months. It was a month or two before spelling bee started. And I said, please get me the buyout for In My Life. And she's like, no, he wants to use you. And I'm like, come on, I could. I need a computer. So. Because if they. At that time with the workshop, if they didn't use you, they had to buy you out four weeks. And so she would. They were holding auditions for other people in my life. And she just kept saying, I feel like Todd's too young to play God. Don't you? And he's like, no, I love him. And she. After putting that in his ear a couple of times, he was like, we should probably bring in a few people for God. And then they cast someone else who's wonderful. And I got the buyout, and it worked out for the best.

[A]

It worked out for the best. And here you stand or sit in front of me today, and you have a computer.

[B]

I mean, I'm three computers since that computer.

[A]

See, guys, it does. It do get better. Well, it's funny you mentioned the, like, sing your own song thing. I. Because I was listening to other people's stories of auditioning for the show, and I guess it wasn't Lapine. I think it was Bill Finn where, like, Lisa Howard talked about coming in with a Bill Finn song, and Bill Finn being like, nah, don't sing that. Sing something else. Like, would tell people to sing, like, Super 180s. And, like, I think Celia said she came in to sing, like, free to be you and me or something. Like, something that she thought would be good for a kid. And then Bill Finn was like, sing holdings to the ground. And she was like, what? So it. Maybe it wasn't her. It was somebody. Somebody was like. Everyone had a version of, like, somewhat familiar. Yeah, everyone had a version of, like, I came in with this that I thought was appropriate for the show. And then they told me to sing something that was a total 180. I do know one person was asked to sing holding to the Ground, and.

[B]

They'Re like, I think that was probably Lisa Howard, possibly because I think she played that part at ccm, if I recall.

[A]

I just know that everyone had the one song that they're like, this is right. And then they were told to sing something else totally different. It'd be like, going. The idea is like, going in for Spamalot and being like, oh, okay, I'll sing, like, 100 Easy Ways to lose a Man from Wonderful Town. Like, you know, that's up tempo and comedic. And Eric, I love being like, so sing Ring of Keys. It's like, what? What?

[B]

Well, James really likes to throw people off in auditions. The last time I auditioned for them was for the tour of Falsettos. I got a callback from Mendel. Didn't get it. It's fine. It's fine. He's fine. But Tara Rubin came out in the hallway and she said to everybody, take everything out of your book that you are not prepared to sing right now. Because James is, like, flipping through people's books.

[A]

Love it.

[B]

So then I, like, I sang like, he had me sing Irving Berlin's what'll I Do? Which is in the back of my book. Fine. So then I go to sing all the Mendel music And I sing Love is Blind, which is like, love is blind. It's big. And he goes, where do you think Mendel's singing the song? And I said, I guess in his office. And he said, oh, so not in a football field. Across to the other side. And I said, and I know James. So I went, oh, you want it quieter? Okay. And I pointed to the pianist and I sang it quieter. And Bill Finn went, I liked it loud. Yeah, but, like, that's just what it's like to work. I mean, I. I have such love for them. And I know it can be sometimes hard to audition for James, but, like, I'm sorry. He gave me the best piece of direction I've ever gotten in my life and was always so kind to me.

[A]

Pete, listen, everyone has stories about everybody. And from what you're telling me, James Lapine honestly sounds like a teacher I had at school, which is not me hating him, being like, I know who that man is. I get his process. But speaking of Bill Finn for a second, and then we can start wrapping things up. Something about William Finn as a songwriter that is interesting to me is he is so intelligent, and he really excels when his characters are intelligent as well. And very, to quote Diane Keaton, vs. Wives Club, wonderfully verbal.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And I think what makes spelling bee work so well for me is those kids are very smart, but they're. They are also kids. So they're. They're smart, but not necessarily the most eloquent either, because even though they have all these amazing words at their fingertips, they're not mature enough to know how to put them into a sentence. That's like. That's profound. And so it's so magical to listen to Bill Finn songs that are intelligent and funny, but aren't, like, so dense. You're like, wait a second. What? Like, they. They. They are accessible in a way, I think, because the characters are so young. And that also adds to the humor, like watching these kids use these big words or moments. Because there are a lot of $10 words in these songs, like, they don't need to be there.

[B]

Automatons and things. I had to look up. There's a song in I'm not that Smart that I didn't know before I sang it. This is great when I just try to quote something and don't know it. No, but there were. I mean, I learned things.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

There was a day when the show was supposed to perform for the flower show outside Macy's, and they had put together like, a half an hour version of the show.

[A]

Mm.

[B]

And Josh Gad called out that morning from this press event. So they're like, you got need to come play barfy at this thing. And I said, well, I don't know the version that we're gonna do. And they're like, you'll figure it out. And I get up there, and they're like, Mr. Barfy, please spell rhododendron. And we were only spelling flowers. I didn't know fucking how to spell rhododendron. And in the middle of, like, Herald Square, I, like, made up how to spell rhododendron, but they're like, that is correct. It was not correct. There's an H in there somewhere.

[A]

Somewhere. Yeah, it's. What's that line that Olive has? Just like, if you take this, the something out of this, the H out of that, the out of that, you could spell what, but no one would hear you because all the letters are silent, right? Yeah.

[B]

W out of answer, the H out of ghost, the A out of aardvark.

[A]

One of the one, the second, the second A out of aardvark, and the T out of listen, and you. And you would say, what? But no one would hear you because the letters would be silent. It's. It's a. It's very funny.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

I also have. Speaking of Seth Rodezky, I have a bone to pick with him because I, again, I do the deep dives. I watched one of his old obsessed videos with Ms. Celia, and it was half spelling bee, half Les Mis based. And of course, he has her end with on my own because he's Seth, and he's like, you're gonna belt for me. But he talked about one of the lines in my friend the dictionary, and he's like, I have a bone to pick with you, Celia. Like, she wrote the song, that lyric about Nietzsche, and, you know, great grandfather Christina Ricci. What's that about? I'm like, what do you mean, what's that about, Seth? It's all of making a little joke. And he's like, does she really think that that's. She. He's the great grandfather. Christina Ricci's like, no, it's. She found a rhyme, and she's pleased with herself. Like, it's a silly moment. He's like. He's like, I don't like it. I'm like, shut the fuck up.

[B]

Very Bill Finn.

[A]

Yeah. But also, I mean, and Celia talked in the. In the interview how it got a laugh at Second Stage, and when it moved to Broadway, it's Very Bernadette, that Peters. I mean, he needs me. Where once it went from playwrights to Broadway, the line no longer got a laugh.

[B]

No, it actually.

[A]

So. And Celia says what she started to do is she added a laugh after the Riichi, and the laugh got the laugh. That's what she says.

[B]

Okay. There was a point in the Broadway run where James was giving us notes. Notes. Barbara Whitman would bring us pizza, and he was giving notes, and he's like, what's happening with Christina Ricci? And she went, I don't know. I lost it. I can't find it. Yeah, I just. I remember that very specifically.

[A]

Yeah. She. She eventually adds a laugh after Christina Ricci, and so her laughing at her joke is what ended up getting laugh, which was very smart of her. Celia. Hot take. Celia Keenan Bolger. Good at acting, but what's awesome.

[B]

I mean, spelling the. And 30 rock.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And like, Kimmy Schmidt, for that matter. I got to be a fan of something before I was in it, you know, because I loved it off Broadway. I loved it in Barrington. It was better off Broadway, sure. But I. And then you get to be in it. 30 rock. You're like, oh, I'm in Jack's office.

[A]

Mm.

[B]

You know, like, that stuff is so freaking cool when you're an actor.

[A]

Yes. Yes, there is. I also. I'm glad that you said it was better off Broadway than at Barrington because it's. It's actually really exciting when something just keeps getting better and better and better with development, as opposed to being like, oh, this is so special. And it feels like it's getting less special, like, the more work they do on it, because that. That's happened.

[B]

Yeah. They can overwork something, for sure.

[A]

Yeah. Patti LuPone talks about all the time with Baker's wife. She was like, it was a mess when we started, and they just kept making it worse. And. And it's. That it's like. It's devastating because it's supposed to be people who know what they're doing, and they're the people you're following. And the moment. No one can see the forest for the trees, it just gets to be a depressing moment. But sometimes when the lighting is just right, you cut the right thing, you move the right thing along. Oh, speaking of cut things, then we will close this out. You are a part of a televised performance of Spelling Bee.

[B]

Oh, my God. It's so crazy.

[A]

It is many questions. Because the song that you guys are performing is a song that isn't in the show. It's on the album. But I don't think it was even performed at second stage.

[B]

It did briefly when the show was a two act musical.

[A]

Right.

[B]

It was two acts started, two acts at second stage and then changed. And there was a song that I think opened act two called why We Love Spelling.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

And so in my Broadway career, I've never performed on the NBC Macy's Parade, but I have twice been in the CBS Macy's Parade, which is the one that you watch by accident.

[A]

Peggy. It's Peggy.

[B]

It's the one. Yeah, it's totally the one you watch when you're like, mom, this is the wrong one. So I did it with. So we did why We Love Spelling and James made like a music video. We were at some kind of middle school. It's ridiculous.

[A]

And then you're like in the. But then you're in a gym, like, but not like a middle school gym, Like a fitness gym.

[B]

Yeah, I'm like doing leg exercises in the gym. We were literally just shooting as we went. It was bonkers. And it was just because Dan wasn't available.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Or didn't want to do it or something. I mean, I took over Barfie for a little bit while he shot a movie. But I was mostly in Understudy there.

[A]

Right.

[B]

And then for Greece, we did Grease Lightning in a lot on the west side Highway. And we danced on pavement. Jumped off that car on pavement. And we got back to the show that night and nobody could walk because we all had chin splints from jumping on the pavement.

[A]

Oh, I'm so sorry. Are you telling me for Cinderella you didn't do something to pay less?

[B]

First of all, when you were Jean Michel in Cinderella, you do no press at all because you're in no numbers or like, none of the numbers that people want to see on television. And it's also shitty to play Jean Michel in Cinderella because people are like, you're in Cinderella. Who do you play? And you say Jean Michel and they go, huh. So that's why I started just telling people I was the fat mouse.

[A]

Oh, my God. I mean, listen, it's been a minute since I saw that Cinderella. So I just don't. Honestly don't remember much of it. I remember the gold dress reveal.

[B]

Sure.

[A]

That was. That was big. And I remember Harriet Harris saying something about a pumpkin in the living room. Were you in it when Fran Drescher did it?

[B]

Yeah, I did it with the revolving door celebrities. Fran Drescher, Carly Rae Jepsen, Nene Leakes, then. Yeah. Well, Then we had a Summer of no Famous People. So it was Nancy Opal and Paige Foray, and then we had.

[A]

So that's okay. Sorry I'm saying this now, and I'm holding you to this. My listeners are gonna hear this. You and I are gonna write a book. What it's about, what genre it is, I have no idea. But the title is called the Summer of no Famous People.

[B]

And I don't mean to say that Nancy Opal is not famous, because to me, Nancy Opel is not famous.

[A]

Yes. People are not coming to Cinderella to see Nancy Opal other than me.

[B]

I mean, I have to say, there was a day where I was like, nancy, what are you gonna do for dinner? And she's like, oh, I'm just gonna go to Mary Test's dressing room at Wicked. We're gonna sit and have dinner. And I'm like. I'm like, young gay kid in me is bursting. Nancy Opal and Mary Testa get to have dinner together in the Wicked dressing room. Anyway, so then Sherry shepherd came in, who I love. Oh, I love her. And Kiki Palmer, who was so great.

[A]

Oh, yeah.

[B]

And then Nene Leakes came in at the end and sold more tickets than any of them all.

[A]

Yes. But she is not Kiki Palmer. There is only one Kiki Palmer. And also Sherri shepherd, who had. Speaking of 30 Rock, has the greatest line of all time.

[B]

Ham.

[A]

Yep.

[B]

Yeah, ham.

[A]

People do. Like, the way she says ham.

[B]

Oh, Sherry was so. Sherry. I, like. I've done theater with, like, a good amount of, like, TV people coming in, and they're always like, this is so fun. Because often in TV and not a lot of the sets I've been on, but often in tv, you, like, do your shit and you go back to your dressing room and you sit alone, and it's not fun, and you're just concerned about what you look like and, like. But, like, theater is just collaboration. So, like, Sherry was like, this is so fun. And I still, like, occasionally Will Marco Polo with Cheri Shepherd. And she's just.

[A]

I mean, brag, why don't you?

[B]

And I do sometimes text Carly Rae Jepsen when I do my, like, online workouts. And then we're like, we're working out to you today.

[A]

To you. I like Carly. She seems like good people.

[B]

Oh, she would, like, if you're gonna have celebrities, which could be a tricky thing.

[A]

Sure.

[B]

Which. That second year of Cinderella was just celebrities.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

We, for the most part, had the nicest people. I wouldn't say Nene. Was nice, but she wasn't mean. She just didn't know anybody's name.

[A]

Yeah, she was. She was exactly how you expect me. Or. Okay. It's how John Mulaney describes not Bon Jovi, but Mick Jagger. He was like. It's like. I'm sure he's his version of nice, but, like, when you get. It's. Again, it's like sort of the celebrity thing. It's like you get to a certain point, your perception of what niceness is is a little different. So, like, I don't think Nini was. I'm sure Nini wasn't, like, malicious, but it's, you know. Yeah, but, you know, she's Nene Leakes. That's her name.

[B]

You can see me on the Real Housewives of Miami.

[A]

Oh, yeah.

[B]

And they. The producers were backstage with us and with cameras and they're like, go wish Nene good luck. And I'm like, I don't want to be on your television program.

[A]

I would rather drink my own bile, sir, than be on the legacy that gets women drunk so they can fight with each other. Real Housewives of Insert blank Brought to you by Chardonnay aka Summer 1976.

[B]

Like, the real theater gaze of New York and where they just, like, get us drunk. We go to Glass House and, like, express opinions, which is kind of what your podcast is.

[A]

Kinda. Kinda. We've done the alcohol thing on this podcast before, and it's. Nothing's bitten me in the ass yet.

[B]

I've heard, I've listened when you drink, and I thought, should I bring a drink? And I'm like, no, no, because I want to be kind.

[A]

Yes. No, you're. And this is also your first time on the pod. I think the second time on the pod, you can come on and we'll do some alcohol. I've never had anyone to come on with alcohol for their first time. It's always like, let's do it once. Get the cobwebs off so you know exactly what to do. But, like, listen, sometimes, like, I will say, I will admit there have been some truly heinous things said on this podcast that I have cut because it was more of a heat of the moment. Like, sure came off the tip of my tongue sometimes. And we talked about this, I think last with the Jonathan episode. Like, sometimes it's very easy to just say the nasty thing and you don't even mean it. It's just like, you need to get it out of your system before you give the more, like, thoughtful critique. Sure. But yes, no, sometimes it's just it. You need to lash that there. It's the purge. That. That's what it is. The. The homosexual version of Ethan Hawke's the Purge. Ethan Hawke is in the Purge, Right.

[B]

I don't watch those movies.

[A]

I don't know. But the homosexual version of that is us at Glass House Tavern having a lot of alcohol and just being, like, opinions. Let me say the mean thing now, so when I see my friend later, I can be kind, you know?

[B]

So. To go back a little. The spelling bee stuff.

[A]

No, we're done. But she's dead.

[B]

I was in a musical of Sleepless in Seattle at the Pasadena Playhouse, and we realized in front of our first audience, people don't like our show. Mm. But I, like. I had a great part. I was the only part that was kind of a bunch of people combined from the movie. So no one was watching it, being like, that's not Rosie o'. Donnell.

[A]

I was gonna say. Were you Rosie o' Donnell and Gabrielle Hoffman combined?

[B]

Nope. But I. My part was Gabby Hoffman and. And Rob Reiner and a few people combined.

[A]

Love it.

[B]

And. But I loved what I got to do in it, and I loved our little show. And so my opening, I guess, were Deborah Craig.

[A]

Mm.

[B]

Marcy park and Barrett Foa, who was the second leaf Coney Bear.

[A]

And Barrett Foa helped me get into college.

[B]

Really?

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

I went to college with Barrett. And so I said. I called them during the day, and I said, okay, so there's a party after. I said, for the first hour, hour and a half, all I want to hear is, you loved it. At a certain point, I'll have had enough drinks, and I will turn to you and say, tell me what you really thought, and then we can talk. But before that, I don't want to hear anything other than, you loved it. And I believe that. And they were. They actually did like the show.

[A]

Oh, nice.

[B]

I think I had prepped them for, like, this is gonna be a disaster. And you're like, oh, no, it's good.

[A]

Yeah. No, I listen. You listen to your friends, what they be open with, what you need, what you want, and that's. That's all you can do and respect that, you know?

[B]

And we try just. We were talking. I think we said this off Mike. We sit down to try to, like, everything we see.

[A]

Absolutely. No, we. I think we even said it. I think we said it on Mike.

[B]

I'm sure they'll Instagram me and let.

[A]

Me know at this point, what haven't we said on Or Off Mike. When did we start recording this again?

[B]

Yesterday.

[A]

Yeah. I also say, as, you know, as someone who wrote his first play and has been developing in these last few months, anytime someone who even, like, even if they're a friend, but they're a producer, they're an agent, they asked to read it. I'm always a little terrified. This is very specific because not only is it like my writing, but it's part of my. It's. It's based off a part of my life that I'm like, if you don't like the story, you don't like a part of my life. But. Sure, but, but, but, but. But I've now tried to separate myself from that element and just focus it on an actual dramatic work. Storytelling. Yeah. And I've told friends, I'm like, if you, like, you don't have to like it, but if you don't like it, I want you to tell me in a way that I can absorb and, like, do something about. Don't.

[B]

Have you seen Julia Louis Dreyfus new movie?

[A]

You Heard My Feelings. I have not.

[B]

That's what this is about. Yeah, it's just exactly what it's about. You have to. It's. I. Nicole Holof Center, I think, directed it, wrote it, and also wrote Enough Said With.

[A]

With.

[B]

With her. Dreyfus. I love the movies these two women have made together, but this movie is exactly what you're talking about.

[A]

Yeah, it's.

[B]

It's gonna sock you in the gut, probably.

[A]

I've. I've. I've had five different people see it, and each one had a very different reaction, which excites me to see it now.

[B]

Sure.

[A]

Um. But, yeah, no, it's.

[B]

With.

[A]

It's this kind of stuff that when I write reviews or whatever, when I'm talking to people, it's something to think about. You know, no one wants to do bad work on purpose. People want to impress, want to please. And. And you hope that the people you like like the work that you do. And sometimes you won't do work that they like. And either you want to hear it or you don't. And if you're asked, honestly, try to be kind of considerate as you give back that feedback. At the Drama Desk Awards, Mandy Patinkin pleaded to critics who were not in that room to be kind with their negative critiques. And at the.

[B]

When was this?

[A]

On Tuesday.

[B]

Really?

[A]

Yeah. Again, I don't think there were any critics in the room, unless you count me. And I don't count me. But he. He Talked about a review from, like, 10 years ago that Charles Isherwood wrote. And he was like. It was so mean. And he's like, so critics, you don't have to like everything, but if you're gonna, like. If you're gonna write a review, just be kind.

[B]

I don't disagree.

[A]

I don't disagree. What I was a little rolling my eyes about. I was like, mandy, they're not here. You're telling that to Jessica Chastain and Jodi Comer, and they're not writing reviews. Like, you're saying that to Richard Ridge. Is that his name?

[B]

Richie Ridge.

[A]

Richie Ridge. You're telling that to him. Like. And he's not a critic. Like. Like, we're all. We have no problems being kind with our criticisms. Like, get, you know, Jesse Green in here and say that to him.

[B]

The hard part is the cruelty sells. Gets clicks.

[A]

Yes. People want to. The New York Times wants people to click on the reviews. So the sasser you are, the more people will read it. Bring. Bring earplugs if you can. If you can. Soul plugs. That line that's now very famous. Honestly, my favorite Caddy review is Ben Brantley's for. Or I should say of my lifetime, because Frank Rich has written some great ones. But Ben Brantley wrote of the Little Mermaid, he goes, loved the shoes, loathed the show. And he goes, okay, I'm exaggerating. I didn't love the shoes.

[B]

Have you ever heard John Simon, who used to be the meanest.

[A]

John Simon actually is scum of the earth, but he. He had some really cunty one liners. He.

[B]

But this one I. This one is funny to me. So there was a revival of hello Dolly Came back with Carol Channing.

[A]

Yep.

[B]

And he wrote. In my original review of hello Dolly, I said that Ms. Channing sang like a woman with a frog stuck in her throat. I now must amend that to say that Ms. Channing sings like a frog with Ms. Channing stuck in its throat. And I'm like, that's fucking fun. Yeah, that is fun. I'm into that.

[A]

Yes. John Simon. It's one of those things where if you took certain lines out and, like, wrote a burn book, he has some amazingly vicious ones. And with the passage of time, we can look back and laugh because, like, Channing survived that. But also, he was just a piece of shit.

[B]

And he, like, he would call people fat and shit.

[A]

Yeah. He was homophobic. He was anti Semitic. He was misogynistic. He wrote one that really fucking I hated about Amy Spanger. In Kiss Me Kate, which I didn't even know about until she shared it when he died, which is when she did Kiss Me Kate, which. Which was her Broadway debut, who's like, Ms. Banker's performance is truly mesmerizing. You. You're mesmerized to wonder how she got the role without sleeping with someone to get in. And I was like, you fucking. Dude.

[B]

She was fucking great.

[A]

She was great. I'm on record on this podcast as saying that she was amazing. That was. I've said it before. I'll say it again. The 99, 2000 Broadway season, I saw Amy Spanger and Marin Maisie and Kiss Me Kate, and three months later, saw Heather Helly and Sharon Renee Scott and Aida, and I came out three years later, and that was the seed that got planted. I said, I love. I love redheads and I love divas.

[B]

Absolutely.

[A]

I think Amy Spanger's wig and Kiss Me Kate started my love of redheaded women.

[B]

Because also, Amy Spanger on that Wedding Singer recording is so good too.

[A]

She's great. I don't love Wedding Singer, but. But she's great on it, actually.

[B]

I saw the dress rehearsal and I had such a good time at it, and I didn't know why, but.

[A]

Yeah. I don't say, like, I hate the show. I talk about bangers. There's some bangers in there. But, yeah. No, listen, I've gotten notes on almost everything in this world, Todd. This has been delightful. Yeah.

[B]

Can I do something really tacky?

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Can I tell people where I'm gonna be this summer?

[A]

Yes.

[B]

Like self promotion.

[A]

That's what I was gonna get there.

[B]

Oh, sorry. I don't know. I don't know.

[A]

Tell the people. First of all, tell the people where they can find you.

[B]

Oh, I am. I'm Todd Buonapane.

[A]

B U O.

[B]

But I'm the only person with that name on any platform. So, like, if you write Todd and write Buo, you're gonna find me. But this summer, I will be. I sing in Provincetown every summer at the Post Office Cafe. So I will be doing a new show there, July 14th and 15th, which is the second week of bear Week. And then my bestie, Michael Buchanan and I will be reprising our songs that Made Us Gay show on Fire island at the new Ice palace on June. July 24th.

[A]

Okur.

[B]

Yeah. I've become. Because I sang in my bathtub all during COVID I became a bit of a cabaret star all of a sudden.

[A]

A cabaret star. Thank you for calling me a Star.

[B]

What does the cabaret star even mean? I went to the. I sang in the Mac Awards this year, and it's just like, women in their 70s in sequins jackets, which is kind of what I want my final form to be. Yeah, but, like, it was just, like, three and a half hours of bonkers ness. Yeah.

[A]

Award shows that aren't on TV are a time, having been to quite a few of them lately. I'm like, oh, you're a moment.

[B]

Well, you posted something. Was it the Drama Desk Awards? You were like, we're two hours in and we're only at, like, number four or whatever.

[A]

Yeah, we were. The awards were supposed to end at 5, and it was 4:05. We had been in a little. We were a little over an hour in, and we'd only gotten through, like, six awards. I was like, jesus fucking Christ. But as I said, credit to Manny Patinkin. He was told that we were running 45 minutes behind, and he's like, okay, I'm gonna stop talking and just introduce people so you all can, like, talk for your acceptance speeches. And I was like, mandy, props to you, mama.

[B]

I do hope for the Tonys. And of course, they will have already happened by the time people hear this, that the lack of writing, the lack of, like, writers guilds, people giving things people say will actually mean that people get to make a speech of some note and not cut people off right.

[A]

Away because, yeah, we won't have bits to fill time. We can just. We. I also would like it if we showed more of the awards that win and not just, like, Best Musical. I've talked about this before. There were a couple of years, the 2000 Tonys, when they did montages of, like, all the design categories to show you why. What made those nominees so special? What made their work so great? So you got excited about them.

[B]

I still think my favorite award show that ever happened was the Oscars, and I think it was the year. And I don't know why. This is what I think of. But it was the year of Precious, and every nominee had someone up there to talk about them in their performance. You know, they. They, like. They were like someone that would, like, shared the screen with them or someone that worked previously with them. And because most nominees won't get on that stage, it was, like, such a beautiful way to honor each person. Yeah, I think I'm the only person that loved that. But I think about it all the time.

[A]

I liked it. It's something that I love. In theory, it's. But it's you know, all it takes is, like, one wrong person to come up there and be indulgent. Like, all it takes is Matthew McConaughey to talk about Gabriel Sidibe, where you're like, God damn it, must we. Which. And. Which isn't what happened. But, like, you know. Right. But, like, you know what that would look like.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And I. They do it at the Theater World Awards, right? They have previous winners, give it to new winners, and sometimes it's super lovely, and sometimes you're just like, we're going on for 10 minutes, babe. Like, your. Your intro is going on for 10, and then the recipient's gonna go on for 10. And it's like, that's. That for me, is why we need to support the wga, because I've watched many actors go on and write their own speeches. And I'm like, we need writers.

[B]

Well, that's why I'm like, we're actors. Don't we have any sense of timing? What are we doing here?

[A]

I. I said this before as well. Sorry to repeat myself, guys, but Todd didn't listen to this. I was at the Drama League Awards, which is. You know what it is. And everyone gets up to say, like, their 20 seconds. And Audra was there to present best musical with Ben Platt and best play. And Jessica Chastain was one of the earlier ones, and she said the most lovely, earnest thing about, like. And I just. I'm sorry, I have to say this. Like, audra, I love you. When I was training at Juilliard, we had to do this, like, exercise where we had to, like, do something personal and simple. But dropped in, I was like. So I chose to lip sync to your Mr. Snow. And I don't know, like, it's like. It's a memory I cherish. I'm like, that's specific. That's lovely. She did it for 10 seconds. It was wonderful. But then it became a running joke because then, like, another person was like, I gotta also say, like, Audra, I saw you in Ragtime. And like, Audra, you and Porky and best blah, blah. And then, like, it just became. And the first time I saw Audra laugh, laugh, laugh to the point, like, it just stopped being funny. And people were laughing at how not fun funny it was. And then what made it worse is that Will Swenson was nominee, he got up and crushed it because he was like, well, I guess I should talk about when I first met Audra. And that's funny because he put a baby in her. And, like, that should. That should have been the end of it. That should have been the end of it. He was like, he. And he definitely said in a way where he was like, over now. Like, exclamation point, bits done. But then because of that laugh, like, people after him were like, oh, great, it's funny again. I'm like, no, it's not. It's not funny. And Audra was just like, enough, enough, enough. But I just. I sat there like, guys, come on. Recognize when the bit is done. It's over. Let her die.

[B]

The only award I've ever won is the handy. That's literally what it's called. It is the Tampa area. Like, theater awards for guys and dolls. I did at the Oslo in Sarasota. And they texted me and they said, congrats on your Handy. And I just replied, who told. Why do I have. The only award I've won has to be named after a cheap sex act. Well, not even a good sex act.

[A]

The only award I've ever gotten was the Leave Coney Bear for my grandmother for being the third best grandson. Get it? Second alternate, everybody. Like, there you go.

[B]

Wow. You really brought it back. I really.

[A]

I brought it back. You don't need writers.

[B]

You don't need them. Writers.

[A]

No. I just need editors. I must say, I want to say one last thing as we close off with Spelling Beef, as we talk about sort of its legacy or whatever, it has a very big legacy. You know, people have done it all over the country. I think they did it at the Donmar Warehouse. That's where it premiered in.

[B]

Oh, I didn't know that.

[A]

I think so.

[B]

Don't I know they sold the. They sold the international rights because a lot of countries don't have spelling bees. And so that's why they, like, didn't bring it.

[A]

Yeah, I don't think it's, like, an international hit, but I recall it being done in London. I know the movie rights got sold to Disney, which, if they do it, it must be animated and it must be done by the creators of Bob's Burgers. Those are the only people I want to see make a spelling bee movie.

[B]

I don't know.

[A]

I'm just like. I'm just imagining how they do Bob's Burgers. And, like, yeah, that's how I want Logan Schwartz and Grubiner's Woe is Me done.

[B]

The amount of people that wrote me to congratulate me when they. They read that article, I'm like, I don't make any money. I'm not gonna be in this Thing. What are you talking about?

[A]

That's on selling the movie rights to that show you were in. Yeah, but I mean, I think the other thing is, again, it's a very beloved show. That original cast is all of you, like, very well regarded and like, thought of as like a giant compact unit in that sense. And the show ran for two and a half years. It's still the longest running show at the Circle in the Square.

[B]

Is that true?

[A]

It is a little over 1100 performances.

[B]

Wow.

[A]

I said that very confidently. And I'm. I didn't double check before I said it, but I'm.

[B]

I am gonna say they're gonna let you know.

[A]

I'm gonna Seth Redetzky it. I'm just gonna say it.

[B]

So let you know.

[A]

They're gonna let me know. But yeah, and it's just, it's. That is a very famous Broadway season.

[B]

In the entire run of the show, there was a woman, Pat, an usher upstairs that would let people in and she. The entire run of the show never recognized James Lapine. And he would get in a fight every time he came to the theater. And he's like, no, I'm the director, Pat.

[A]

We've done this before. Pat. Patricia, it was amazing. We've been through this dance.

[B]

She always knew who we were. Never knew who he was.

[A]

I love that. Yeah, we digress. We need to actually wrap this motherfucker up. So, Todd, people can find you on Instagram. You have a show at the Post Office.

[B]

I have the show, the Post Office Cafe and Cabaret in Provincetown called Single and Loving it.

[A]

Question mark. Yeah, single and fabulous. Question mark. No one said there was gonna be a question mark.

[B]

And then songs that made us gay in Fire Island. And those are all linked on my Instagram and my Twitter and my.

[A]

All the things. Yeah, amazing.

[B]

My scruff.

[A]

I don't know if you guys like this podcast. You can rate, review, subscribe. It gives a nice five star rating. If you want to follow me on Instagram, Matt Koplik, usual spelling. It's the only place you can find me. I had.

[B]

You have a good Instagram.

[A]

Thank you very much. Considering that there are no photos of me, which maybe is why.

[B]

No, I mean, you're close friends. We get some features.

[A]

Yes, but only. Only on close friends. I forgot you're all my close friends. I found out on Spotify you can do like Q and A's and so people can write like you don't. They don't do reviews on Spotify.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

You can do ratings, but sometimes people like Will write in on an episode something. And I found too, that I just wanted to give a quick shout out to since I usually read the Apple podcast reviews out loud. These are too short to do to the Lightning Piazza Overture, so I'm just going to do it to the intro to move from Dreamgirls obc. Because that's short. Loved it. I'm a fetus spelled F O e t u s 2000 and musical theater fan. A rare breed in South Africa. Hi. From South Africa. So I'm playing catch up with older productions. Your podcast gives me that extra insight that only a seasoned fan in New York City has. Thank you for calling me seasoned and not insane. Other person says great way to learn about some performances and shows I had never heard of. Host is funny. You hear that, guys? Funny and knowledgeable. Aha. On theater history. Worth a listen. Thank you. You know, like any artiste, my skin is as thin as my bones, and my bones are as thin as my waist, and my waist is as thin as my ego. And so I just love compliments.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

As I tear down other people's work.

[B]

You don't. You didn't today at all.

[A]

No, we. I think we were both very kind. Listen, if you want to hear me be unkind, ask to join my close friends so you can hear my real thoughts on a certain Tony winning actor. Lord, no, it's all good. I'm. I'm actually not even that mean on that. Anywho, Todd, we close out every episode with a Broadway diva. We can do repeats. We've been around long enough that we were doing repeats. Who would you like to close us out with?

[B]

You're gonna get mad at me.

[A]

I will.

[B]

I want to hear Karen Morrow sing I had a Ball.

[A]

Why would I be mad at you for that?

[B]

Because it's so dorky.

[A]

Speaking of Seth Rudetsky, he introduced me to Karen Morrow singing that song.

[B]

Oh.

[A]

Did you know that Karen Morrow had a son, but she died before he could ever come out to her, so the son didn't come out tomorrow.

[B]

Oh, my God.

[A]

Who's the great grandfather? Christina Ricci.

[B]

Oh, my God. Wow.

[A]

That was what we call a stretch.

[B]

It's really a journey that. That. I feel like I went on a real trip with you.

[A]

I went on a journey to the past. Thank you so much for listening, guys. I'm gonna close this out before I get any further into insanity. Takes away Karen. Bye byeee cottage Small o all too all unchanted Blissville in old new Kissville the greenest, grandest, greatest state of all. All. If it lasts forever, I love it.

[B]

Live it.

[A]

One short lifetime. What are you.