Sam Ekman (2:06)

Gold Derby is a site with people with lots of opinions. And if you're a person with lots of opinions, you can come voice them on our site. We're an entertainment site that covers all awards races in the entertainment industry. And I also help them with Oscars and Emmys and Everything but my. My main little alcove here is the Tony Awards and Broadway. And you can create your own profile and account on Gold Derby and head to our prediction center and log in your own predictions of who you think will be nominated and then win on these various awards and see if you can outscore people like me, the editors. And we also have a lot of, like, experts on the site, people critics and other journalists who cover the Tonys and Oscars and Emmys for various publications. So there are prizes. If you like winning prizes and you think you can outscore me and be number one on the predictions, you can do that and maybe win a prize. And we have the great privilege of speaking to a lot of artists along the way. I get to talk to a lot of people I really admire and a lot of great theater makers across all different disciplines on. On the road to these awards. So it's a good gig.

Matt Koplik (3:23)

That's a great gig. I don't get to talk to a lot of people that I admire, but a lot of people I admire get to talk to me.

Sam Ekman (3:29)

Well, there you go. We're reverse.

Matt Koplik (3:33)

Sorry, verse. Oh, reverse that too. But sure, sure, her that. But how would you say your track record tends to be on the Gold Derby for Tonys?

Sam Ekman (3:42)

I mean, like, not to toot my own horn, but last time I tied for first place, so that's pretty good this season, however, she's tricky.

Matt Koplik (3:51)

Yeah.

Sam Ekman (3:52)

This is the hardest season to predict that I've ever covered. Absolutely. So I was not. I did respectable for how difficult it was for nominations, but, well, something that.

Matt Koplik (4:02)

Gold Derby doesn't take into account with Tony's because I feel like the format is restricted to Oscar format, which is, you know, there's never. They never go beyond the number of nominees in a category at the Oscars versus the Tonys. Now that can absolutely happen. So with predictions you don't get to take into account, like, well, what if there are seven featured actress and a musical nominees?

Sam Ekman (4:25)

Sure. But if you got five of the seven, then you would still be the best out of everyone on the site. So there is still the. You know, you can still kind of ace your predictions that way.

Matt Koplik (4:34)

Were there any nominees this year that took you by surprise? It doesn't have to be good or bad. Just like, oh, didn't expect that to happen.

Sam Ekman (4:40)

Oh, yeah, a lot. I would say both Joshua Boone and Sky Lakota lynch for the Outsiders. I just thought there were so many featured men in the Outsiders that sometimes when there's a huge ensemble of people and it Becomes difficult for people to kind of unite around a single person to get them through. So I did not see those coming, but congratulations to those men to get.

Matt Koplik (5:05)

To nonetheless, because I feel like that's sort of the thing with Sus is Nicky M. James has now sort of had to become the spokeswoman for that whole ensemble because it's like, who do you pick in that show?

Sam Ekman (5:15)

I know.

Matt Koplik (5:15)

Yeah. I don't know if I predicted Joshua Boone at first. I know when I came out of the show, I was like, I feel like he and Brent Comer are doing, like, the supporting actor bids that I would nominate. And I'm glad that both he and sky are nominated. But, you know, justice for Brent, who I just thought was so good, he was great and so Daddy.

Sam Ekman (5:32)

Yeah.

Matt Koplik (5:32)

Yeah.

Sam Ekman (5:33)

Well, speaking of the, you know, not that you want to take a nomination away from anyone, but our lovely Paul Alexander Nolan was, of course, left out of that category. I don't know what he has to do.

Matt Koplik (5:43)

I've been saying, what does he have to do, Sam? I've been saying this. What does the man have to do? I don't know. I'm going to actually be at. So this comes out on Thursday. We're recording this on Tuesday. By the time this comes out, I will be at the Water for Elephants cast album. They're calling it a listening party, but I think it's just like a release party or. I don't know, are we literally just all going to sit around, drink and listen to the album?

Sam Ekman (6:05)

Yeah, there'll be free food and snacks.

Matt Koplik (6:07)

No, absolutely free food and snacks. But last time I went to one of these, it was the into the woods cast album release. So we didn't. They, like, played it over the speakers, but we were on a, you know, rooftop bar, and it was just. It was an excuse for Sara Bareilles to get drunk with me. That's all it was. And Annie golden to just sign my album without me asking. But I do wonder if Paul and I will have to have a moment and I'll be like, you know, that we all know and you should know.

Sam Ekman (6:35)

I hope he didn't listen to any of my coverage because if he did, I probably got his hopes up because I had him as, like, a sure thing for not.

Matt Koplik (6:42)

I had him, Daniel and Steven as the three sure things of that category. Same. And yeah, it's. I just don't know why the Tonys have decided. Maybe because, like, well, he's good old reliable Paul. He. Oh, he brings it to you every ball. And I'M like, yeah, so award.

Sam Ekman (6:56)

Why are you gagging? So why are you gang?

Matt Koplik (6:58)

I'm like, award the fucker. You know, why not? But I just don't know anymore. I'm more nervous because I know for a fact now that a few people have sent him my review of Water for Elephants, which is just a love letter to him. And I don't want him to feel weird when he hears my name because I'm not security. I am not Martha from Baby Reindeer. I am totally normal. I can keep myself composed. There are other people in this world that I would not be composed around for different reasons. Paul, I'll be totally fine. But yeah, unfortunately, he did not get that nomination. Any other big ones for you besides feature actor? Oh, sorry. Printer going right now.

Sam Ekman (7:38)

Yeah.

Matt Koplik (7:38)

We're in the office of my mother's apartment. And even though she knows we're recording, she is 69 and she tends to forget these things.

Sam Ekman (7:47)

I'm trying to think of ones that really surprised me. I feel like everything there were people I was really happy for that weren't sure things that, like Betsy, Adam for Prayer for the French Republic. I was really happy she got in same a lot of people weren't. You know, I think maybe discounted her because she's not the famous person in a category of super, super famous women. But I was happy she got in and really happy for Dorian Harewood because I was worried that the shift of him and Marianne Plunkett to lead might hurt them just because they're not the ones in that. In the Notebook who do the most singing.

Matt Koplik (8:20)

Yes.

Sam Ekman (8:20)

Which is always kind of a gamble. But I thought he was fantastic. So I'm happy he finally is in there.

Matt Koplik (8:27)

Same both of them. I was so thrilled to see their nominations. Anyone who sees the Notebook, you can't deny that they are not the center of that production. And that's sort of the thing is you and I have both seen everything this season. We've seen everything that's nominated. So there's a lot of stuff that people will talk about in their predictions just based off of word of mouth or reading on message boards without actually having seen the thing or they think about it objectively. And sometimes it's just a matter of once you're in that theater and watching, watching the thing, your whole attitude about the race changes because of what know what's right in front of you. And that's something that I learned with my predictions this year because there's so many things that on paper, I was like, let's go this is gonna be it. And then I went and saw it and went, maybe not. Or things that I slept on and then saw. And I was like, oh, look who came to the party. And it was. That was. That's been fun this year is sort of the surprises, both negative and positive.

Sam Ekman (9:20)

For me that selfishly is kind of like why I love what I do. And I always am like, oh, I'm gonna do so well on these. I'm gonna scoop this person up with 100 to 1 odds in gold Derby's prediction center. Because it really is like a different ball game. Like, people sleep on folks just because they're not as well known. And Broadway is a localized industry. You have to be here to see the things. And that's kind of what I love about what I do is kind of like broadening that conversation out to people who are theater fans but maybe are not here to see all the shows.

Matt Koplik (9:55)

Oh, I love to watch the. Once Gold derby opens up the Tony predictions tab, I start looking at all of Yalls predictions because there's people like you who like, know what they're talking about and do this. Then you get people who mostly deal with film and are just. They're a gold derby editor and this is another prediction they could do. And you're like, oh, you just have read about Broadway. You don't actually know what any of these shows are. These people are not naming names. But, you know names. But yeah, so let's, let's, let's get into some of the nitty gritty here. So, Sam, when you are doing these predictions, we'll start with like, let's start with nominees and we can go into winners for a second. How much of yourself do you have to sort of take out of the equation or do you kind of just lead with your heart when. When in doubt?

Sam Ekman (10:47)

That's a huge. I think everyone who is kind of in the awards prediction game, that's a huge component of it. Because art is subjective. Like there is. It's not sports. There's not like a literal first or last place finisher. Things that might be critically derided are maybe someone's favorite thing. And you know the flip side of that? Something that everyone falls in love with. Maybe you're just like, I don't get it. This doesn't resonate with me at all. So it's always kind of tough to take yourself out of it. But you have to because it's about figuring out what this specific group of people are going to do. I think like, I first kind of started reading sites like Gold Derby and other awards based sites because I was not a sports based person. I was a theater person, as you can see.

Matt Koplik (11:47)

Go lions.

Sam Ekman (11:48)

Yeah, yeah. Estid18, whatever the fuck that was. That doesn't exist. But I was like watching, you know, the Emmys and couldn't figure out why my favorite shows like Buffy the Vampire Slayer never did well and never got onto the main telecast. And because I'm like also a huge like sci fi fantasy nerd. And so I was like, why don't these things that I think are the most life changing pieces of art not getting any attention at these shows? And it's because, like, there are certain biases, there are certain things that register with these voting groups and it's. It's kind of like you have to take your own ideas out of it if you want to do well. You can kind of go out on a limb for people you love if you, if you really want to. And I do do that, I think in the, especially in the nominations phase of like, you know, just because there's so many great talented contenders, especially like in a season like this that is so crowded that sometimes I do throw someone out there who I'm like, I'm not sure if they're really in there, but I think they deserve to be in the conversation. But when push comes to shove, it's kind of about putting yourself in the mindset of this specific group of people and what do they respond to?

Matt Koplik (13:05)

Totally, totally. And I mean, also I remind my listeners every time to remember that the group of nominators changes every three years. So who we have right now is not who did the nominations in 2015 or even 2018, 19. And I think this cycle actually will be over next year or the year after they're.

Sam Ekman (13:28)

I think so, yeah.

Matt Koplik (13:29)

Yeah, it'll be. Although I don't know if they do like a whole new overlap or if it's sort of. Some people come in, I believe it's piecemeal.

Sam Ekman (13:35)

So everyone gets a term and you finish out your term.

Matt Koplik (13:38)

I also know that you can be a nominator again after a certain period of time because my step grandmother was a nominator for the 8992 season, I believe. And then she was a nominator again for 2015-2018. And that was because her last year as a nominator, we went to the Tonys together. That was the band's visit year. And we went to the plaza afterwards and I got a nice free lobster roll right behind Tony Kushner. He didn't have a lobster roll, but he. But I did stand behind him as I ordered mine. That's my fifth proudest moment as a homosexual.

Sam Ekman (14:16)

What's for.

Matt Koplik (14:18)

Well, tell you off mic.

Sam Ekman (14:19)

Okay.

Matt Koplik (14:20)

But yeah, so with. Are there certain trends that even with different groups of nominators over the years, are there certain trends you tend to see with nominations of the Tonys?

Sam Ekman (14:33)

Yeah, I think sometimes it depends on the category you're looking at. I think also just to back up for a moment, I think one of the tricky, unique things about that nominator group, which is specific to the Tonys, different from things like Oscars, Emmys, Grammys, is that this is a very small group of people who decide the nominations. And usually like it started at 60 this year. But if you're involved with a production, you have to recuse yourself or if you can't see something for whatever reason, you have to recuse yourself. You have to see everything. So I think they ended up with 44 of them actually voting this year. And that's a tiny pool of people. When you figure the main body of voters to decide the winners is over 800, it's a really. You're appealing to 44 people. So the small. When you have votes like this, the smaller the group of people deciding this list, the more chance there is for kind of singular individual tastes to come into the fold. I think in years past, we've seen what we often call like the snob appeal feel a little bit more pronounced. Things that might appeal to the quote, unquote, old guard and not necessarily younger folks. But in recent years, they've really made a concerted effort to diversify the nominators in terms of age. Like, there are more people like in their 30s, which there really weren't before in that group, and race and ethnicity. So there are, I think, more diverse perspectives in the mix. So they, you know, like Michael R. Jackson has been a nominator. He's gonna have a different opinion and different tastes probably than, you know, an 80 year old artistic director of a regional theater somewhere. Right. So that's kind of the. The great thing about it is that they have tried to diversify it and they have seen everything. So it really is the most fair it can be in a way. There's no, like, oh, this didn't get in because no one saw it. Yeah, they've all seen everything. But that makes it super difficult to go in there and think, well, what are these 44 people gonna say? Yeah, you know, because it could just be Like a divisive show, you know, like Lempicka, I think was pretty divisive this year. People fell into kind of love it or hate it camps. If you have enough love, it's in a group of 44, you could totally get in. And if you have enough hate, it's. Then it can totally not. Yeah. So it's tough.

Matt Koplik (17:06)

And things have just gotten weirder in that respect in terms of perspective, tastes and whatnot. Because there are shows that maybe don't do well critically that end up getting a lot of Tony nominations. Love. But then totally blank when the voting happens. There have been, there have been a lot of musicals where they get double digit nominations and get zero or one wins. Mean Girls, Scottsboro Boys, trying to think of other ones. SpongeBob, Paradise Square. And I think we can see that's something that people always feel like need to kind of prepare themselves for. No matter what they see the tally of nominations, they go, oh, clearly this is the front runner. I'm like, well, as you said, yeah, exactly. Now we gotta go to a pool that's 20 times the size and not everyone's gonna agree. I've looked at past years and I've talked about this before. I mean, I know in the Aida episode we talked about how that was a year where specifically, because there's always this feeling that, oh, nominators are making pointed claims with their nominations of ignoring things and voting for others. And that's not always true, but there are some years where that's absolutely true. And the year of Aida, it was very clear that they all tried very hard to make sure it didn't get a best musical nomination because they were pretty sure if it did get the nomination, it would win. And so they got five nominations, score, actress, you know, everything but musical. And they won four out of the five. So yes, if they had been nominated for musical, they probably would have won. And Wild Party getting six or seven and totally blanking. And I always just like to bring those up to people. A. I find it fun. I found those fun facts. But also it's just, it's interesting because I feel like with the Oscars it's kind of the reverse. Usually the one that comes in with the big nominations tends to be the big heavy hitter on the Oscar night, with very few exceptions.

Sam Ekman (19:07)

Well, that's changing too though. I think in recent years it more I like to the point of people's ballots and are they trying to say something? I really think it's true across multiple types of awards that it really comes down to passion in many of these. Like, I'm a. You know, I'm a voter with the newly formed Dorian Awards from Gallica, which is a society of LGBTQ journalists. And, like, we only have three slots. When you fill out a ballot, you don't get a full slate of five. And that's how a lot of these awards work. So if I only have three people per category, I have to really think about, like, what resonated with me, what do I really love? Because I don't even get to list everyone that I loved in a season. And so sometimes, like, weird things shake out in weird, weird ways. Because math. I can't tell you why. Because math. Because I have not taken a math class since I was a junior in high school, because I have a BFA in acting, so that's not my forte.

Matt Koplik (20:13)

I have a BFA in musical theater, so I'm barely better than you. I can count up to eight.

Sam Ekman (20:17)

I can count to eight. I still took voice lessons. So she did eights. She did. She did dancing and singing.

Matt Koplik (20:24)

Oh, she did eights out of tens.

Sam Ekman (20:25)

Yeah. Eights out of tens.

Matt Koplik (20:27)

In college, you heard it first. Sam Ekman did nothing but eights. If you were below an 8, Sam Ekman did not talk to you, did not look at you, didn't want to have anything to do with you. Only eights. Only eights across the board.

Sam Ekman (20:37)

Is it true? Maybe.

Matt Koplik (20:40)

So on that note, what. What is a. With when it comes to Tony voting? Let's say I've talked about this myself, but I want to hear from a professional. There are obviously some myths about, you know, how voting works and. And what shows tend to win or what shows will get certain kinds of votes based off of Tony communities. Tony voting communities. Do you know what I mean when I. When I say some of this stuff?

Sam Ekman (21:05)

Like, what one.

Matt Koplik (21:06)

Like, oh, what's gonna get the road vote?

Sam Ekman (21:08)

Oh, what road vote? I never want to hear about the road vote again.

Matt Koplik (21:12)

Well, that. I think that's, like, the ultimate myth.

Sam Ekman (21:15)

It is. Well, it has merit of, like, years ago, years and years ago, because the. So for those who don't know, the road vote is referring to road presenters who are, you know, maybe going to present things on tour in regional houses, which used to form a much more sizable portion of the voting body, but now I think they account for, like, maybe 12% of the voting body. It has shrunken as the. You know, their influence has shrunken as the Tony pool has shrunken, expanded in numbers. And the theory was always like, oh, well, the road voters will just want something that middle America eats up, that they can advertise really well and easily. That'll make them a bunch of money, which I get. But one, people tend to not vote as big blocks like that. And two, it's been proven wrong time and time again because, like, one, they see everything. You know, once it's nominated, they see all the nominees. And if I was a presenter in a, you know, touring house somewhere in America, I know I can sell Beautiful, the Carole King musical. I don't know that I could sell Gentleman's Guide to Love and Murder unless it has the stamp of best musical on it. Because for most of America who is not listening to this podcast, who's not keyed into the theater world and Broadway, their only kind of, like, knowledge of things that are good are, like, it won the Tony for best musical. So that actually does mean something on the road in terms of national tours. So, like, why wouldn't you want two things in your season that can make money? Because, you know, like, without it doesn't matter. Like Beautiful, the Carole King musical. Like, all these, like, mass appeal, like mj, those have appeal whether or not it wins Best Musical. Other kind of things that are more indie, like, a lot of recent winners, the band's visit and stuff like that, there's no way that would have been able to sell. Yeah. Unless it does have that stamp of approval, 1,000%. But the road vote is not a thing, so don't.

Matt Koplik (23:22)

What what happened was it was the year of Avenue Q that, like, really this myth just kind of stayed in everyone's brain forever. Because also, you know, message board culture was really kind of crystallizing at this point. And when Avenue Q beat Wicked, there are. I mean, there were just millions of articles like, how did this happen? And ultimately, a lot of things happened. And if you want to know more, y', all, you can listen to the Avenue Q episode with Sam Seamock, former Emersonian. And we talked about this. Avenue Q ran a very intense campaign, one that they actually, because of Avenue Q's campaign, Tony campaigning rules have now changed because of what they did.

Sam Ekman (24:04)

It was really the first actual campaign like that that was done really, because it used to.

Matt Koplik (24:10)

Campaigning used to be a lot more in the room. It was networking. Because the difference between Broadway and Hollywood is all the events happen in six blocks of each other. And it's not every day. It's every couple of days, and everyone's always together. And you can do a lot better networking that way. So any parties, any award shows, anything like that. But.

Sam Ekman (24:37)

The only.

Matt Koplik (24:37)

The first one I can really think of that really kind of did a campaign, but it was a light one was Secret Garden where they just said, like, vote with your heart. That's all they did. There's like, vote with your heart.

Sam Ekman (24:46)

That was the Avenue Q1.

Matt Koplik (24:47)

I know. Avenue Q stole it.

Sam Ekman (24:48)

Oh, right, right, right.

Matt Koplik (24:49)

Or repurposed it, I should say, because Avenue Q took it and then ran with it because then they wrote a song and they did all these other things and they, they did a lot, a lot of stuff and. But what everyone focused in on was after they won, they signed a deal to do a sit down production in Vegas which pissed off all the road voters at the Tonys because supposedly many of them voted for Avenue on the assumption that it was going to tour. They did eventually tour, just not immediately. And so from there, the idea of the road voter having influence respawned and has just stuck ever since. But also, I. If the road voters truly were the ones that pushed Avenue Q over the edge, it was by a small enough margin that it had an effect. Not like, oh, they overwhelmingly pushed Avenue Q to the forefront. It was most likely that Avenue Q was always going to win, score and book. And then with a couple dozen votes, maybe 100 votes beat Wicked in the end, which is all. I mean, you just need one to win.

Sam Ekman (25:46)

Well, this also brings up another point that we should discuss because in addition to this road vote thing, one aspect that sets the Tonys apart from any other award, even other theater awards, is that it's not only deciding what people think is the best, but there is a advertising and monetary aspect of this, because as we said, it's a localized industry. You have to be here to see the shows. The Tony Awards become the biggest advertising and marketing opportunity that any Broadway show has. Getting a win in front of those millions of people. And you know, even with viewership down from like the heyday of network television, it still is a huge event that draws a bunch of eyeballs that is then replayed on social media, that is replayed on news stations as they discuss winners. So it has a huge effect. Or having a great performance, production number on the Tonys has a huge effect. And I think sometimes because best musical is the category that really is the one that boosts the box office reliably, other ones, you know, maybe or maybe not, but best musical reliably will give you a boost in ticket sales, at least for a time. And I think there is again a thought Sometimes of, well, like that Wicked year. Wicked is doing great. It defied the critics. It's critic proof. And it's going to be a box office hit no matter what. Like, it just is a hit as captured Zeitgeist. Avenue Q is a show that we really like that maybe needs this stamp of approval in order to have the second kind of phase of its life in order to survive. And I think we've seen that this year, even with it was such a packed year for musicals. Two of the best, if you know, critics aren't Tony voters, except for a small group of like maybe a dozen or so. But the two, two of the biggest critically acclaimed ones were Days of Wine and Roses and Here Lies Love, both of which were closed. There are a lot of closed shows they could have taken from and they only went with things, you know, shows that were still open. And I think some of that we'll never know because they don't release the ballots. And I haven't personally interviewed and picked the brain of all 44 nominators, but I think somewhere there they do have to think like, well, if I give this spring show a best musical nomination, it still really needs it. Whereas Here Lies Love is gone and it would be really nice for them to get one. But these spring shows really need this boost.

Matt Koplik (28:26)

I think also this has been a year we're talking about musicals right now. We'll get into plays as well. Well, but with musicals, I feel like there aren't a lot that have a large amount of passion behind them. Hell's Kitchen took me by surprise with all of its nominations this year, but I also think that just means it's that much more likely to lose as many nominations as it got. But who knows? That's something we'll talk about later down this episode. But, you know, even if critics loved Days of Wine and Roses, did all the nominators love Days of Wine and Roses? Because they nominated Kelly and they nominated Brian and they nominated the score. Not book, not orchestrations. And those, those all seem so flippant, but they all do matter in some way. I mentioned this on a past predictions episode many weeks ago. There has never been a best musical winner to not be nominated for best book if it was eligible.

Sam Ekman (29:21)

It's an important category.

Matt Koplik (29:22)

It's a very important category. You can win without getting nominated for director. That has only happened, I think, twice. You can win and not win director. But it getting nominated for book and director is very, very, very helpful. And it also helps if you have at least one acting Nomination in there as well. Which. The only of the five musical nominees, Illinois doesn't have Booker director. I feel like there's. There's another one.

Sam Ekman (29:47)

The other ones are all Seth's, the Outsiders, Hell's Kitchen, Wire for Elephants.

Matt Koplik (29:52)

They all have director and book.

Sam Ekman (29:54)

Yes, yes. Water for Elephants does not have an acting nomination or a score nomination because they got rid of Paul Alexander Nolan. And you'll have a word with them.

Matt Koplik (30:01)

I will. I will have a word with all of them. I will go to Becky Ann Baker and I will say, mama, what are we doing? I will go up to Michael R. Jackson and I will say, first of all, cut 20 minutes out of teeth. Second of all, what are we doing Continuing? But I don't know how we got here. Oh, the other thing is, it's always tricky to say this and not sound like I'm having a tinfoil hat on my head, but I do feel like sometimes with voters, especially with musicals, and we're sort of in this yet again, a time where everyone's having arguments about what kind of musical should we be producing and blah, blah, blah, as you said earlier, more of the smaller musicals have won best musical in the last 20 years, and the few that weren't really the small ones that are maybe larger were ones that were very critically acclaimed and big hits. So something like Hamilton, Dear Evan Hansen. Yes, they were. You know, if Evan Hansen wasn't financially the success that it was when it went into the Tonys that night, it would have been considered one of those small, weird musicals that you'd want to see when Hamilton, big musical. But again, reviews you can't buy and a Pulitzer and, you know, just became a movement. You can't deny that. And I feel like sometimes there are mentalities when voting. What message are we sending the community of, like, give us more of this? And the only reason I say that is because the year of Band's Visit very much felt like that. I was in the room that night, and it was crazy because it was Radio City Music hall, so half the room is filled with fans who could buy a ticket. So the top three mezzanines are shouting every time SpongeBob or Mean Girls has a nomination announced. And every time Band's Visit had a nomination announced, it was tepid applause. And then Band's Visit kept winning, and it was sort of voters going, like, we don't care how many followers you have on social media. If you give us a good musical like Band's Visit, we're going to vote for you. And we and we would like more of that. And I don't know how often that happens, but that. That definitely felt like a pointed statement from voters that year.

Sam Ekman (32:03)

I do think that people kind of look like, think about the canon of best musical winners, because I don't know, like, think about when you're a high school kid. Like, I know for me, you know, that was kind of the entry point in a lot of ways into what's happening on Broadway and the musicals that really stick out to people who are not, again, here in New York, who are just, like, theater fans from afar. It is often, you know, the best musical winners that they pay attention to. And that's. We were talking about important categories like best book. I think that's why best score is also, you know, this is my thing I talk about every year when people say that certain shows that are jukebox musicals are going to win, and it's going to be tested pretty heavily this year. But best score has been all important recently because until Moulin Rouge, when they had to award a jukebox musical, nothing of that sort had won since Jersey Boys. Because after Jersey Boys, there was a flood of these musicals. And they thought, well, when we look back through best musical winners, is it going to just be rock music and pop music? Like, we should be uplifting our own musical theater composers and really championing them. And this is the space to do it. And I won't say specific names because, I mean, I'll get into trouble. But I was told very firmly by some show years ago from a person who I think is no longer in the industry because they're rude and they probably shouldn't be, but. But they were like, we don't need your help winning best Musical. When I simply, you know, asked for, like, a ticket or, you know, access for an article, and they. They did not. And I knew they weren't going to win right away because it was like, I know that they're going to champion this other show that is from, like, theater royalty. It just. It just, I think, is more appealing to people to do that. That's why this. This season is going to be really interesting because so many people have either Hell's Kitchen or Illinois out front to win. And I'm not sure about it because it's like, in the. If they have the opportunity to reward something with an original score, I just, like, it's hard to not see them taking it. That's been the trend for years now.

Matt Koplik (34:28)

Absolutely. And so I was thinking about this because. So also, full disclosure, guys. Sam and I have run into each other about 7,000 times in the last three weeks at shows. We ran into each other at Cabaret, at Mother Play. We didn't see each other at Illinois, but we were at the same performance of Illinois, weren't we?

Sam Ekman (34:46)

At Hell's Kitchen together, too? Maybe we didn't see. You were in the mezzanine.

Matt Koplik (34:49)

I was in the Wednesday matinee of Hell's Kitchen. Malaya was out. But I see Malaya do it off Broadway.

Sam Ekman (34:53)

Oh, no, I didn't. I saw Malia.

Matt Koplik (34:54)

Okay, so different. Different matinee. I was supposed. I saw Hell's Kitchen for the matinee that was supposed to be Cabaret that they canceled. And I got a mezzanine seat for Hell's Kitchen and they announced Malaya was out, and I went, I'll stick around. I saw her do it off Broadway. I doubt that the performance has changed much because nothing about that show changed from off Broadway. But I digress. We were talking about this, I think, at Cabaret. No, we were talking about this at New York City. Gaiman's Chorus after Party, about the number of jukebox musicals or musicals without original scores that have won best musical, I mean, in the last 50 years, let alone last 10. And Moulin Rouge, they had to. Jersey Boys, critical financial hit, also a genuinely good musical. Its only real competition was Drowsy Chaperone, which won a bunch of other awards. So it was sort of a nice.

Sam Ekman (35:41)

Yeah, I think it was close that year.

Matt Koplik (35:42)

Yeah, it was very close the next one. So that was. So that was. We're talking 20, 20, then 2006. 2000 with contact, which I don't even think you can call a jukebox musical that got shit for other reasons.

Sam Ekman (35:56)

Danceicle.

Matt Koplik (35:57)

It was a danceicle. Exactly.

Sam Ekman (35:59)

Just sort of Illinois this year.

Matt Koplik (36:00)

Exactly. But also, you know, of the four nominees, that was the one that was just the clear winner. Because you had Wild Party, which I love, but was so divided and honestly kind of hated by critics. It was only really liked by the art actor community. Wasn't really liked by anyone else. You had Swing, which no one took seriously, and then you had James Joyce's the Dead, which everyone was like, we'll give it a book win. But like, God damn it, I slept through that show. After the next year. The year before that is Fosse, which I also don't consider a jukebox musical. That is a review like Jerome Robbins, Broadway or Amisbehaven, that is musical theater. And then Crazy for your, which also I don't really consider Jukebox musical. It's. It's Gershwin and and is a. Was more of a revisal of an old musical made new. So outside of that, we don't really have jukebox musical winners and we actually have quite a few jukebox musicals nominated throughout the years. So I hear you and I think that's absolutely accurate. I think what could get Hell's Kitchen the win is just that like we're very scattered all over in terms of who's got momentum. But I, I right now kind of have suffs as that one to beat because of quote unquote, the importance of the message. That's which isn't me undermining its importance, but rather that's something that people always like to talk about. It's so important right now. Like, sure, yeah. I mean it is. And then it is an original score. It is directed by Lee Zimmerman, who has a nomination this year. She was nominated for Violet. Shayna has always been this kind of like beloved, well kept secret in the community and now she's kind of getting her due with the writing. A lot of women in that show are very well liked. It's. I think there's a lot going for that. I would love it if Illinois are the outsiders one. Just because Illinois is my favorite of those five and outsiders made me very horny. But you know, I can't deny suphs but we'll see. We'll see. Sorry, let me check the time. Okay. But we're going to continue with some more stuff. But before we do any of that, we gotta take a quick break. Billy, I beg to differ with you. How do you mean you're the top? Yeah, you're an arrow caller. You're the top. You're a coolidge dollar. You're the nimble tread of the feet of Fred. And we back. One thing I wanted to bring up with you, Sam, and then we'll actually get into some of your predictions and how you kind of came to that. Another myth that I've mentioned a lot that people think about with the Tonys because they compare it to the Oscars this way and they're very, very different is quote unquote precursor awards with the Tonys. With Oscars, people go, well, there's SAG and there's DGA and PGA and Golden Globes. Golden Globes don't actually influence voting on Oscars so much as it can kind of get people on the bandwagon with press and oh, Ryan Gosling gave a great speech. We remember how much we love him. Sag, dga, pga, wga. Those are guilds that vote for those categories at the Oscars. Tonys don't have that.

Sam Ekman (38:53)

Yeah, precursor is not really a word with any of the other theater awards given out. So, like, precursors, like you mentioned with SAG or dga, those guild awards are. They have crossover voters, so that's why we refer to them as precursors. And something like the Golden Globes, Even though they don't have any Oscar voters in their ranks, or actually, they had one for a while. There's one single person who is a Hollywood Fire impress voter, but they. It's a huge, big televised event. And so because, I mean, Oscar season is a whole different thing because there are so, so many months and months of different awards leading up to it, which, you know, it might be heresy in my field, but I could deal with less because sometimes it makes things not as exciting or surprising on Oscar night, but you kind of. The public gets to see and voters get to see someone get up on a big televised ceremony and make a speech. And then you kind of go, oh, yeah, that feels really right. I'm gonna vote for this person. Or. Mm, no, they miffed that. Or it doesn't feel right to have this person win the category. So we're gonna go in another direction so they can influence that way. The theater world is not like that. We don't have, like, just speaking for the Dorian Awards, which I'm a part of the. I think we have two people who are Tony voters in our ranks. Just two, but not nominators. So they're not like, nominees aren't gonna do anything. It's. There's not really a big crossover. And like the New York drama critics circle, some of them are grandfathered in as Tony voters. Again, not nominators. But there's no real opportunity for crossover. And there's always people who get in left and right. I'm just thinking of because I just had a conversation with her, which you can watch soon on Gold Derby. But Leslie Rodriguez Kritzer got Drama Desk, Drama League and outer critics nominations for Beetlejuice. Missed at the Tonys. Same thing that same year happened with. With Bonnie Milligan for Head Over Heels and missed at the Tonys. So there's not really a huge correlation. You can kind of get some trends from people you can. Like if something is uniformly popping up. Unless it's those two things. I just. Two women I just mentioned, like, sometimes it can seem like a good bet. Like it's really a show or a person or something. That's resonating across the board, but they don't really. The Tonys will go their own way again. It's 44 people deciding these nominations.

Matt Koplik (41:19)

So I talked about this last year because I got to go to both the Drama Desk Awards, which all. It was just everyone sitting at Sardis and going up and making their speech, and Manny Patinkin and his wife going over by an hour. And then Drama League, which the best thing I'll say about that was the food was good. But in both situations, you know, Stephen McKinley Henderson had done Between Riverside and Crazy, he was nominated to the Drama League for Distinguished Performance. I think he had already won the Drama Desk for the Off Broadway production. So he came to the Drama Desk because I think he got an honorary award. And in both cases, the room went absolutely wild for him. He got louder applause than Jessica Chastain, Jodie Comer, Sean Hayes, like anyone, to the point where at the Drama Leagues, when he got up, because it was the deus where everyone has to get up and say a quick thing, he stood up and it was a minute before he could talk because people wouldn't let him open his mouth. They were just too excited for him. And I remember thinking, like, oh, shit, he might win. And it did not translate at all. That was also the Drama Leagues where Annalee Ashford won Distinguished Performance for Sweeney Todd, which made everyone go, oh, well, she's gonna win now. Not Vicky for Kimberly Akimbo. And I was like, first of all, very rarely has the Distinguished Performance Award of the Drama Leagues gone on to win, because the year before Annalee, it was Sutton for Music Man. That has become more of an award of, we like you. We like your career. This award isn't necessary for your performance so much as, like, you gave a good performance this year after giving many good ones. Here you go. We like you. Give a speech. But I got caught up in the room both of those times, and I forgot my own rule that these aren't actual precursors. And I have to remember that as we continue onwards towards June 16th.

Sam Ekman (43:03)

Yeah, and it's like a room. Like, the Drama League is a group of people who are really passionate theater people, right? Who are here in New York. And Steve, I love Stephen. He's a, like, amazing creature of the theater. He is such a. You know, it makes total sense that he would get that recognition and that reception there. But he. You know, I also predicted Sean Hayes that year because he was just playing. He checked off every box to win.

Matt Koplik (43:29)

That's a. You know, sometimes the the obvious winner. Because it's so obvious. You. You want to be more interested than that. I. This year with Oppenheimer, I kept feeling like, well, what if it's not Robert Downey Jr. What if it's not Cillian Murphy? But the answer was just staring me dead in the face. And as we were starting to watch the telecast, I just kept checking off Oppenheimer for my predictions and eventually being right. But, yeah, sometimes the obvious winner is just right there, and you gotta acknowledge that enough people are gonna go with a solid choice but an obvious one, you know, Anyhow.

Sam Ekman (44:09)

Yeah.

Matt Koplik (44:10)

So on that note, Sam Ekman, let's talk about your mentality with this season as you had to get into the predictions of it all, throw a category my way. Talk to me about sort of how your brain has been working about it.

Sam Ekman (44:25)

Oh, God. Well, the one we mentioned before the break that still keeping me up is best musical.

Matt Koplik (44:31)

Sure.

Sam Ekman (44:31)

I think it's one of the most confusing ones. It's the hardest year to predict this category ever, I would say. I've had Suffs out there, I think, since the beginning. And I've switched. I've maybe dropped it a few times into, like, second or third place, but I just keep thinking, like, can Danceicle, like Illinois, really take it? Can a jukebox musical with Alicia Keys songs like Hell's Kitchen really take it when they have kind of rejected those things so much recently? Yeah. And Suffs is just such a. It works on multiple levels. It has something that feels very topical and relevant. It has the opportunity to honor Shayna, who is kind of, you know, this. Maybe auteur isn't the right word, but it's kind of this, like, new force in musical theater and in Broadway right now. And because she's done the score and the book and stars in it, it's a. You know, it really feels like not only awarding best musical, but also awarding a figure that they really love. And it just is such a complete body of original music, which I keep coming back to as, like, the most important thing. I could see it losing score. I think it. I can't imagine it losing book, to be honest.

Matt Koplik (45:52)

This has been a bad year for books, in my opinion. And I don't think the book for Suffs is incredible. I think it's fine. What I want to give it best book for is it's the only nominee of the five that doesn't have a narrator.

Sam Ekman (46:05)

Oh, my God. It is the year of the narrator.

Matt Koplik (46:07)

And can we put a fucking end to it? I am so over it. My dear Lord, if I had a dollar for every time someone in a musical turned to the audience and spoke the subtext, I would be a billionaire. And that's just from Act 1 of Hell's Kitchen alone. Yeah. Get the narrators out of here. So, yeah, I think Suffs is definitely the front runner for book. I think it's between Suffs and Stereophonic for score, but.

Sam Ekman (46:31)

Which is so crazy. We should talk about that too.

Matt Koplik (46:33)

We're actually gonna get into that.

Sam Ekman (46:34)

Yeah. But with Best Musical, it's just like, the thing that makes me scared about Sephs is that I don't feel or, well, scared about any of them, no matter who I put in the first position, is that I don't feel like there is a strong front runner. I don't feel like any of the five have really become, like, a zeitgeist hit the way some other, like, bands visit or dear Evan Hansen Hamilton, you know, that they just start steamrolling and really kind of, like, capture the whole industry. And it's like, well, clearly this is going to run away with it. That is not happening this year. And I'm a little nervous of, like, Suff's kind of, like, campaign and marketing strategy a little bit. It feels like they're honing in on that kind of, like, this is important thing, and that can kind of undo you. I feel like we've seen that at the Oscars a lot. Sometimes, like, people don't want to hear, like, this is important. They want to know, like, what does this do for me emotionally? And I don't know if anyone from Sefs is listening. I would, like, go to a different.

Matt Koplik (47:42)

Take a different tactic, because I feel.

Sam Ekman (47:44)

Like stuffs is such a joyous. Like, when that show ended, I was like, oh, my God, I want to go protest. I want to go, like, go be political. And, like, it makes you feel so alive and so joyous and really, like, grabs at your heart. Like, all of the stuff about passing the torch, like, when she is like, oh, my God, now I'm the old fogey and I'm not the one with current ideas. And it's just we are watching that play out right now in real life still. And it just. It really is so emotionally active. And I feel like that's what. That's what I think they should lean into is that angle. Because just, like, it's important doesn't is not captivating to voters.

Matt Koplik (48:28)

The show is a lot cheekier than people realize going into it. And they have a little bit of cheek to their. To their posters outside the theater. But the show, like the show itself, is not as hammering you over the.

Sam Ekman (48:39)

Head if it doesn't feel like a history lesson. And some of the. Some of the, like, visuals for things out in the world for that make it seem like we're diving back in history. And I'm like. It feels just more emotionally immediate than that. It doesn't feel like I'm like, watching a distant history lesson.

Matt Koplik (48:58)

I got a little history lesson out of it. My big thing with stuffs that I've talked about as a detriment to it is I do think it's kind of pandering. The majority of audiences going into stuffs are politically on the side of. Of suffs. And so there are times.

Sam Ekman (49:12)

Yeah, so are the voters, so who cares?

Matt Koplik (49:14)

Yeah, I know. I know. But. But I'm saying, as someone who really enjoys, you know, musicals that challenge me of. In my perspective, of who I am as a person, I would have loved more of that mentality of Alice Paul, you know, having just such tunnel vision about her work. Same with Gianculella and Nikki M. James. And what I really wanted, because they kind of danced around it without actually dancing, because there's very little dance and stuff, but they danced around the idea of what I called in a past episode, the Ragtime Trio opener of everyone sort of dancing around each other. I wanted Nikki, Jen, and Shayna to always just kind of be each other's dad, antagonist the entire time, all going for the same goal in different ways and fighting each other because they think the other one's doing it wrong. And I wanted more of that because anytime it did happen, I was like, yeah, let's do it. Let's fucking musical theater fight. And then when they would stop and have, spoiler alert, Hannah Cruise die of something, I was like, I'm not. I don't care about this one so much. Get back to the dramatic, humdrum.

Sam Ekman (50:13)

Hannah Cruz.

Matt Koplik (50:14)

I know I. I enjoyed Hannah Cruz. I really enjoyed her in the Connector, and I enjoyed her in this. But when they had this whole. When they had the whole thing about her dying and I. And I was also annoyed that Alice Paul never once was like, I told her to go out there, and she said she wasn't feeling too good. Am I partially responsible? Am I the drama? They didn't have a moment of that. And I really wanted it only because I knew Shayna would be able to sell it. It's like, shayna, baby, you're the writer. Write that for yourself. You know, you can do it. But alas, I don't know. We have Hell's Kitchen, Outsiders, and Water for Elephants. Probably doing the best financially of the five right now. Outsiders is. I'm not surprised that Outsiders is becoming kind of a fan girly hit already. But it's also hard for voters to take a musical like Outsiders serious when its fan base is young girls. That's just. That has proven time and time again to be any musical's detriment when it's got a very young, heavily female fan base.

Sam Ekman (51:09)

Yeah, I would say the. The biggest or most immediate comparison that pops up for me would maybe be Spring Awakening, which I was like, these boys are going to be as popular for this generation as those kids were for us.

Matt Koplik (51:21)

Oh, see, I was thinking Newsies.

Sam Ekman (51:22)

Oh, that too. Yeah.

Matt Koplik (51:24)

I called Outsiders violent Newsies.

Sam Ekman (51:26)

That's so good.

Matt Koplik (51:27)

Thank you. Because that's what it is. And I called Harmony Tuxedo Newsies. But, you know, Outsiders was a more exciting musical than Harmony, and thus. And also did not have what Harmony suffered from, which is what Suffs is, as we were saying, kind of suffering from too, of the, like, we're important. See us or you're. Or you're problematic. Outsiders is like, come see us if you want to get pregnant without having sex, because that's what you're going to get after the rumble. And I, you know, I'm six weeks along, and I'm very pleased with my choices. We'll see. Part of it is, I think voters don't take a lot of while. You know, we have younger nominators, and we do want to get young folks involved in theater. I don't think voters respect the tastes of young people all that much. If they did, spongebob would have absolutely run away with the Tonys that year. Or Mean Girls.

Sam Ekman (52:15)

Well, Outsiders is not that type of, like, property. I mean, spongebob, I thought, was an amazing musical. They really did so much with that when it was clearly something that, like, some executive at Nickelodeon was like, we want to be on the Broadway. Yeah, we want that musical.

Matt Koplik (52:30)

We want Broadway money.

Sam Ekman (52:31)

But then the creatives really took it and made something cool out of it. But this isn't like an IP like that. And I feel like one of the things it might have going for it is that even older voters will likely have read the book. I feel like I'm actually the only person who never read the book and was not assigned this book in high school or middle school.

Matt Koplik (52:50)

Why did your school hate America?

Sam Ekman (52:51)

I guess they. I.

Matt Koplik (52:53)

Well, I went to the Professional children's school on 60th between Amsterdam and Columbus. And we sure had to read it right after Lord of the Flies. And I remember reading both.

Sam Ekman (53:02)

That's like my favorite book.

Matt Koplik (53:03)

But I read both those back to back, and I went, these boys are angry. What are they so angry?

Sam Ekman (53:07)

Lord of the Flies musical where someone gets smashed with a rock, but they're like 11.

Matt Koplik (53:13)

First of all, don't ever. Don't you ever, ever pitch me a musical starring only children, because I will.

Sam Ekman (53:18)

Well, no. It would be people playing children. We'd like to do that on Broadway.

Matt Koplik (53:22)

Sure. So this is gonna star all the Keenan Bulgers.

Sam Ekman (53:26)

It will star the Keenan Bulger family.

Matt Koplik (53:28)

Keenan Bulger family. And the Mueller family as well. And we'll just.

Sam Ekman (53:31)

Celia Keenan Bolger will just come out and do a Shay Osaka. Yes, I am playing all the parts.

Matt Koplik (53:37)

Thank you.

Sam Ekman (53:38)

And then Lord of the Flies, including the musical, including the card, it'll be called Flies, exclamation point, the Musical.

Matt Koplik (53:44)

And it's just Celia Keenan, Vulture on stage with nothing but sand, on the abandoned set of Once on this island, pulling a share in west side Story, playing all the part parts.

Sam Ekman (53:53)

She'll take a rock, bash it on her own head, and then wake up. So that's how Piggy was killed.

Matt Koplik (53:59)

And they'll get nominated for best book because of all the narration.

Sam Ekman (54:02)

Celia, we found your next Tony Award.

Matt Koplik (54:04)

We sure did. Because it's not Mother Play.

Sam Ekman (54:08)

I loved her in Mother Play.

Matt Koplik (54:09)

Okay, well, I'm glad you did. I didn't love anything about Mother Play. I loved Celia's hat from Marvel as Mrs. Maisel that she wore when her character became a lesbian. Can you tell that I really want that show to win all the Tonys.

Sam Ekman (54:24)

I can see you're a fan. Sure.

Matt Koplik (54:26)

Well, that show just made me very angry because I went in so pumped for it. Because I love Vogel, I love Tina Landau, spongebob, and I love all three of those actors. And I was like, if this doesn't ruin me, I'm gonna be a little miffed. And not only did it not ruin me, it wouldn't even touch me with a 10 foot pole. It's a musical. That's what you say about musical. Let's get into plays for a second. It plays is actually kind of interesting because we have one play that is the mammoth movement in a way that we don't see for plays usually. That's usually reserved for the musicals, and that is stereophonic.

Sam Ekman (54:54)

There's five actors nominated. That's insanity. Five actors nominated within Two categories. That does not happen.

Matt Koplik (55:00)

It's so rare. It's so weird. I have three and one and two in the other. Even Hamilton didn't have three and two. Oh, no. They had lead actor. But I was thinking featured actress for a second, like, again. But that's. It's reserved for. For musicals.

Sam Ekman (55:13)

Yeah. It's really. I mean, that's gonna win best play for sure. I can't think of. I think people really do. If Jaw Jaws, like, opened in the spring instead, and we imagine a different alternate reality, or Jar Jaws, African hair braiding, opened in the spring, like, I don't know. Maybe that could beat it. But I think Stereophonic just has really taken off in a crazy way that rarely happens for plays.

Matt Koplik (55:39)

I loved Ja Jaws, and that's definitely my number two of. Actually, no, sorry. Mary Jane's my number two. Jaja is now my third. But if. If Ja Jaws came out in the spring, I don't know. I think that play might have seemed a little slight to voters. Opposite Stereophonic, which, like itself, isn't necessarily about giant, important subjects, but the sheer size of it is something that voters.

Sam Ekman (56:02)

Can recognize as I think it's about something important, too. Artists, like, it's really about, like, sacrificing everything just for the chance of making something great, you know?

Matt Koplik (56:13)

Oh, yeah.

Sam Ekman (56:14)

And so I think Jaja's feels like. I don't know. It feels so. Like the emotions in it ring through so strongly.

Matt Koplik (56:25)

I found that show to be pure joy. It was just great. It was a celebration of joy and then, you know, the rug being pulled out from under you at the end of the. You know, you can never let your guard down because when you're these women, you're always a target. But the plays this year have really made me happy.

Sam Ekman (56:46)

Yeah. I think there's a stellar crop of plays.

Matt Koplik (56:48)

Yeah. Do you. I always assumed that Appropriate just had revival locked and loaded, but some of your contemporaries at Golder rethink that Pearly Victorious could make it happen.

Sam Ekman (56:59)

I. I'm not predicting Pearly Victorious, but people do really still love that production. And I don't know. I think, again, recency bias, Appropriate is still open and is also insanely popular.

Matt Koplik (57:14)

Yeah.

Sam Ekman (57:16)

Excuse me.

Matt Koplik (57:16)

And also good, by the way.

Sam Ekman (57:18)

Also really good. And was so good and so popular that they transferred it to commercial production after. After it ran at the Haze. So I just think Appropriate feels like it has the reviews, the performances, like, everything going for it. Purley. I've talked to a lot of people who are just in love with it. And I do still think, despite its close, that it could win an acting award, but I don't see it. I don't see it taking it away from appropriate.

Matt Koplik (57:50)

Do you think that actor is between Leslie and Jeremy Strong?

Sam Ekman (57:54)

Yes. Although I think it's stronger. Chance for an acting trophy is actually Carrie Young.

Matt Koplik (57:59)

Well, Sarah Pidgeon.

Sam Ekman (58:00)

Her and Sarah Pigeon will be in, like, a death battle to the finish for this. But I, like, I don't think it would be foolish to underestimate how much admiration people have for Carrie Young. And this is her third nomination in a row, third consecutive show. People clearly love her. And I think every single time she's been on Broadway, she's shown something completely different and new, which is really cool and I think has caught the attention of voters. And it's just a matter like this kind of, like, recency. Bias is a term we use of, like, something that just premiered and is still running. For you to go see it is going to be fresher in your mind. And maybe the nuances of a performance or design or insert, you know, category here might fade a little bit as time goes away. So I think it's about. Sometimes those details fade from your mind. So a performance you liked in the fall doesn't seem as immediate, but people are still talking about Carrie Young's performance, and it is still seared in people's minds. So I think she and Sarah Pidgeon are really gonna duke it out.

Matt Koplik (59:09)

Well, I think people assume Sarah Pidgeon and Juliana Canfield might split the vote, and I don't think that's gonna happen. I think that Juliana Cannonfield's nomination is one I'm very thrilled about and one that I was hoping could happen. I didn't think it would, so her being in there is incredible. But it's. I feel like the two performances or the three performances from Stereophonic that people talk about when they walk away are Sarah's, Eli Gelbs and Will Brills. So I feel like Will and Eli might split the vote for Corey Stoll to win for Appropriate. But I also think Will could really kind of just take it for what is a very showy performance that he doesn't over do in the same way that Kara had a very showy performance that she didn't overdo.

Sam Ekman (59:51)

I think vote splitting only occurs when there's not a consensus. And I think in the case of Sarah Pidgeon and Juliana Canfield, there is a consensus around Sarah, which is not a dis like Juliana is incredible. The whole cast is incredible in the show. But I think just in terms of what type of stuff gets awards attention. Sarah checks off so many boxes and has. I think it's an ensemble piece. But if you were going to single someone out as a central figure, it would probably be her character. Especially once you come back from intermission. It really solidifies on her and Tom Pasinka. So because she's the. The not Stevie Nicks. Because it's not about rumors and it's not about Fleetwood Max.

Matt Koplik (60:33)

Exactly.

Sam Ekman (60:33)

Dreamgirls is not about the screams for her not Stevie Nicks character. So I think that is not a vote split scenario. If you want to talk about close votes, I would love to see the vote tally for featured actor in a play when all is said and done. Because I can guarantee you that is going to be the closest call of the night. And all five men, you should all prepare something to say. Because I don't think it's just between like three people. I think literally all five of them have a shot at winning. I. I actually can't call that category. It's crazy.

Matt Koplik (61:12)

You know, I will bow to you on that one. I have who I would vote for, but also.

Sam Ekman (61:19)

Well, I have who I think I have who I would vote for. But I have talked to people who are very firmly in the camp of all five of them.

Matt Koplik (61:29)

Sure. I, I have spoken about this already in my rankings episode. I have been very open about how much I was so disappointed in Mother Play. I do know people who are voters. I said something kind of disparaging about the age demographic of people who liked Mother Play. But the truth is a lot of those people are voters. So I can imagine them giving votes to that play and thus Jim Parsons could get in or. Or Jessica Lange. I mean, I think that much as I would love to lead actress to be a two way race between Sarah Paulson and Rachel McAdams, I do think it is a three way race with.

Sam Ekman (62:06)

People are really responding to that play and Jessica's performance. And I think Jim Parsons checks off a lot of boxes again.

Matt Koplik (62:12)

He dies of aids. They love that.

Sam Ekman (62:14)

Well, and just beyond that too, I think people, this is going back to the divide between nominators and voters. Sometimes voters get a list of nominees and they're like, where is this thing I wanted to nominate or wanted to vote for? Like To Kill a Mockingbird, the year where it was left off, Best play. There were a lot of people pissed off because they wanted to vote for it for best play. And I think there are a lot of voters who have Kind of been waiting to give Jim Parsons a Tony and waiting to vote for him. Like, there are people who wanted him in for bands, Boys in the Band, and for the Normal Heart. This is not his first Broadway gig he's been doing. I think it's his fifth. It's either his fifth or his sixth. So he has a lot of fans and a lot of people who have responded to this particular performance with all three of those actors.

Matt Koplik (63:02)

Yeah, I think that there's very few acting categories this year that I will speak on with confidence. I think that really, Jonathan Groff, leading actor in a musical, might be the only thing that I will predict with confidence.

Sam Ekman (63:18)

I feel the same. The lead acting, lead actor and actress in a musical are really interesting this year because the. There are Kelly o' Hara and Brian d' Arcy James from a closed show and a divisive show. However, I've talked to people who hated that musical and still are voting for Kelli o' Hara in lead actress in a musical. And similarly, Brian Darcy James is someone who has a lot of love in this industry, and he's like. He's another person where. I think there's certain figures who develop a career where people are kind of, like, just waiting for the right opportunity to give them a win. And he's one of those people. I mean, I don't know about you, but I feel like when we were younger, it was like all the men wanted to sound like Brian Darcy James. And, like, people idolized Brian d' Arcy James. And.

Matt Koplik (64:14)

Yeah, well, he.

Sam Ekman (64:15)

He.

Matt Koplik (64:16)

He had two roles that were very, very popular for our generation of musical theater male singers. One was Wild Party. We wanted to sound like him as burrs. And then it's not super niche, but kind of niche. Titanic, Barrett's Song, and the Night Was Alive are two moments where it's like every tenor boy I know, they wanted that. That ping. They wanted that timbre. They wanted that straight tone into nice, rich vibrato. And then, I mean, Sweet Smell of Success is a deep cut, but the number of boys who sing at the fountain at auditions, and it just sort of continues from there. He is beloved. He's been around forever. He was also in the Carousel I love so much, but he. This is his fifth nomination. I would love it if he won. He is my vote in that category. And Kelly will have to, you know, box Marianne Plunkett for me to decide who wins that one, because Lord knows I love both of their performances this year. But I hear you. I hear you. The thing that Kind of gets my goat with the Jonathan Groff narrative. There's a lot I think that he has going for him to win that I agree with. He is the lead of the biggest musical hit of the season. Part of the narrative of what makes this production work is him, Lindsay and Daniel. It's their chemistry. Also, the narrative of, oh, one of the hardest roles to crack in musical theater is Franklin Shepard, and no one has been able to do it. No one. And Jonathan Groff cracked it. Whether you agree with that narrative or not is your personal take. But that is the story that has been going since not just October, but since last year when it was off Broadway. So all that is in his favor. The part of his narrative that I don't like, because I think it applies more so to Brian d'. Arcy James is the. It's his time. He's overdue. I'm like, Jonathan Groff isn't even 40 yet. This is his fourth Broadway show, third nomination.

Sam Ekman (66:08)

I think it's. I think it's also. I think that's become a thing because, yes, he's had, like, fewer shows, but.

Matt Koplik (66:15)

He'S been around for.

Sam Ekman (66:16)

He has been around for a while and many of those shows have become major zeitgeisty things like Spring Awakening.

Matt Koplik (66:22)

Hamilton. Hamilton, sure.

Sam Ekman (66:24)

And then he found, like, major success with Glee, with Frozen. So he's been a big musical theater figure and a big, like, Broadway ambassador to the world. So he feels like. He feels like someone who will win a Tony one day. I think it will probably. Probably be this year. Yeah.

Matt Koplik (66:42)

His footprint is large considering how few credits he actually has. My issue is the overdue, just because I don't think you can really apply that to someone like Jonathan, who also just, like, has had so many roses and so much acclaim already and, like, never and hasn't had to want for people knowing his name for a while now. And Brian has been a consistently working actor who has just had to, like, claw and climb is a terrible way to describe it because I don't think he's ambitious that way. I think he's just a genuinely talented, good person who, like, works hard all the time, has done a wild amount of projects, and I don't know, like, it gave a beautiful performance.

Sam Ekman (67:24)

He really needs. Brian needs to be in a show that is open at the time of voting. I really think that's a simple. As it comes down to, I feel like there is a world where I think a lot of people thought he should have. He was going to finally win for. For shrek. And that was going to be his moment. And then the Billy Elliot thing happened. Yeah. And since then I feel like. I think all of his nominations, the shows have been closed by the time. Am I wrong? No.

Matt Koplik (67:50)

I think this is the only one that where he. This is actually the only nomination. No, this and it's the woods are the two nominations where it's been closed because Sweet Smell it's successful was open. I think it closed like the day after the Tonys and then Shrek was open and Something Rotten was open. Something rotten. Oh, I totally forgot Something Rotten. He could have won. But I was never in any doubt that it was Michael Cerberus. That was a situation where it was a Fun Home v American in Paris. But again, that was the situation where anyone who was saying that the two were battling it out were people who were online talking about it. I was like, the moment you step in and watch Fun Home, you cannot tell me that that's not the best musical of the year.

Sam Ekman (68:26)

Well, that was the case. This might prove he will lose to Jonathan this year but I think Fun Home was just like the show. It was the dominant show of the year. Right. Where Something Rotten was like, this is really great and fun and we like it. But yeah, Fun Home became this overwhelming thing. I think this year, merrily is this overwhelming thing 1000%. Whereas people really are in awe of what he and Kelly did in Days of Wine and Roses. But I think the overwhelming thing is going to take the award. That said, I will contradict myself because I have Kelly out front to win for Days of Wine and Roses in my prediction right now because I feel like that category is without a front runner and it's really hard to win these lead musical acting categories if your show is closed. Really hard. Like for lead actress in a musical we have Stephanie J. Block, then you have to go.

Matt Koplik (69:23)

Cher show was still open when that happened.

Sam Ekman (69:26)

I'm sorry, I'm talking about the wrong point. Talking about the wrong point.

Matt Koplik (69:30)

Matt.

Sam Ekman (69:31)

It's been a long period of time. What I'm talking about is a non best musical nominee is what I'm hearing. So Stephanie J. Block was in the Cher show which was not nominated for best musical and before that you'd have to go back to Heather Headley for Aida to have the same thing happen. Sorry. Mixing up my stats in my head. But she just feels like the one that people are talking about.

Matt Koplik (70:00)

Yeah.

Sam Ekman (70:01)

In a way.

Matt Koplik (70:02)

I think the only reason I'm going to give. I'm going to. I'm going to Make a moment for Malaya and for Marianne just a bit to counter. Not that I disagree with you, but something that people should be prepared for. It does help that Malaya and Marianne are in shows that are still running.

Sam Ekman (70:20)

Sure.

Matt Koplik (70:20)

That are doing pretty well right now, at least financially speaking. Marianne also has the narrative of having been around for a long time. Her first musical since her win in 87 is beautiful in the show. I'm not saying that I think she will win, but I think that there is a kernel there that could sprout for her. Malaya is the ingenue on the rise in Hell's Kitchen, and that whole show sort of revolves around her and her stamina. Where that will hurt her is. The show is a big task for any actress, and Malaya is not trained. She's just raw, amazing talent. And from what I understand, that is already kind of starting to bite her in the ass in terms of attendance, which I do not shade people for attendance. You do what you need to do to be healthy and have the longevity in your career. But it's happening at a terrible time right now, which is she has to take care of number one, which sometimes means you have to miss. But that also means that there are just gonna be a lot of voters who don't get to see your performance. And I don't. And I don't think that a voter will be so pleased with your understudy in the show itself that they're. That they will be willing to vote for you because they know that the role is good.

Sam Ekman (71:32)

Yeah. And they do try to reschedule everyone as much as possible, but, I mean, it's such a truncated period that sometimes you just can't reschedule. I do think that that category, Kelly, Malia, and Marianne are kind of the three. The thing. I think the biggest thing Malia has going for her is that she's sort of an apple in a bag of oranges. Or an orange in a bag of apples, Whichever version of that phrase you want to use. Because she is the only one who's kind of like the newcomer.

Matt Koplik (72:06)

Yeah.

Sam Ekman (72:06)

In that category. And sometimes with that. With that race, they do like to kind of crown a new. You know, a new person. The new star on the rise.

Matt Koplik (72:16)

That that category, more than most is definitely has been known to crown the star on the rise.

Sam Ekman (72:21)

Sutton Foster, one for Millie, which was her debut. It's happened plenty of times.

Matt Koplik (72:25)

Well, it doesn't even like your. Your first nomination. Yeah. Sutton Foster, Heather Headley, Jennifer Holiday. You can go into the 90s as well. I'm Pretty sure Donna Murphy, that was her first Tony win. And even though she wasn't, you know, 22, that was sort of a crowning of a new star situation.

Sam Ekman (72:45)

Yeah.

Matt Koplik (72:46)

Not King and I, by the way.

Sam Ekman (72:47)

Well, duh.

Matt Koplik (72:48)

I just want. I just want it to be short because there's. I. There are certain things you can look at with narratives with certain categories. Right. And leading actress in a musical. I feel like there are sort of three that you can go with. One is the crowning of the new star, one is the rewarding of the legend, and the third is the rewarding after a long string of buildup. So, like Kelly and King and I, Cheetah and Kiss the Spider Woman, Sutton and Millie, those are sort of the three that go. And then. And then the nuances of that come into play later. You can look at, you know, with Heather and Aida, it's. Well, that was also just objectively the biggest hit of the year. And all the reviews, even. Even the ones that didn't like the show, famously, Ben Brantley hated Aida and basically spent half of his review going. The only reason to see this is Heather Headley, who, my God, slaps. And everyone just went, okay, great. He said those words in big letters.

Sam Ekman (73:40)

That was their pull quote.

Matt Koplik (73:40)

That was their pull, pull quote. And that. There's something very exciting about that. And then there's something very exciting about giving Cheetah her first Tony win for the Rink and then her second for Spider Woman, or giving Audra her six for her fifth for Porgy and Vess. And there's something to be said about giving Stephanie J. Block finally her due with Cher show. And after that, you can see trends going different ways. So you know what's so interesting this year for musicals in the featured category? As I've mentioned before, featured actor wins tend to go for the actor that more sets a vibe than has a Showstopper. And then lead actress, a feature actress tends to go for those who have the Showstopper more so than the vibe. And then the last three years, it's actually sort of pinned the inverse with Matt Doyle with Company, and then with Alex Newell for Shucked, and then this year, probably Daniel Radcliffe for Merrily We Roll Along. It's the having the show stopping number and feature actress has been more about having a mood the whole show.

Sam Ekman (74:36)

I think having a Showstopper is always, if not a Showstopper, like a number. You have to have a moment, which is what I always talk about is like a Tony moment or like, even with other things like the Oscar moment, what are they gonna put on screen when they read your name, when they go through the list of nominees in the ceremony? Like, what is the thing that sticks out? Because stuff does fade from memory. Like you won't be able to recall all the details of something, you know, months, years down the road. But there are things that you can still think, holy shit, like, that just knocked my socks off. Remember when that, like Matt Doyle did, you know, his crazy speed through of that song? Like, how did you do that? And those numbers definitely stay with you. Or like, remember when. So like Aena. Karla Kango got a standing ovation, like, during the show.

Matt Koplik (75:30)

I keep thinking of like Arielle Stachel for Band's Visit or even Christian Borrell for Something Rotten or Going Way Back. Ron Rifkin for Cabaret. These a lot of featured actor wins or any of other ones. Boyd Gaines in Contact. You know, it's performances where they may not have the show stopping number, but they are there consistently throughout the night and they keep reminding you how much you love them. And I think that is something that it can happen sometimes more often with featured actor than actress. Actress tends to have more of the Showstopper. Just that the last three years, I felt that it's kind of the reverse of that because even though Bonnie Milligan had two great numbers in Kimberly Akimbo, what really kind of sold her win was the vibe, the comedy she kept bringing to the show throughout. And you know, Patty and Company obviously has Ladies who Lunch. And that was a moment. But also we remember just the star quality and the legend status she just brought to the stage from her fucking entrance to the end.

Sam Ekman (76:27)

And she even participated in Death's choreography.

Matt Koplik (76:30)

She sure did. She did musical chairs with the rest of them during Side by Side by Side by Side by Side. Because there are some wins that people look back on and they go, how did that happen? What makes this a Tony winning performance? And there are moments you can pinpoint, like you said the Oscar moment, like Ruthie and Miles and King. And I think you look at something wonderful and you go, that's what won it for her. But I also think similar to what you said about splitting the vote, only really happens when there isn't a consensus, I think, between Sidney Lucas and Judy Kuhn for Fun Home, no one could really figure out which one was the forms they liked more.

Sam Ekman (77:04)

Well, yes, and that year I think there was also a certain article that really swayed people away from a certain young Tony winner who was like, don't give a Tony to a young kid because it'll ruin their life like it did me and give me all sorts of problems.

Matt Koplik (77:20)

So I don't even remember that.

Sam Ekman (77:22)

I do think Sydney Lucas would have pulled that out. Sorry, Sidney. But then I think people felt a certain way about it after something possible.

Matt Koplik (77:32)

Well, then Sydney Lucas said, I'm gonna be a doctor. Peace, bitches. Isn't she learning to be a doctor?

Sam Ekman (77:37)

Is she?

Matt Koplik (77:37)

I think so. I don't think she's in the biz anymore.

Sam Ekman (77:39)

So. She wanted to make real money. I understand. She.

Matt Koplik (77:41)

She worked when she wanted to work. And then she was like, deuces, I'm out. Which I respect. That girl knows what she wants. And you. And you can tell because that Tony performance is not the Tony performance of a dumb little child. That's the Tony performance of a grown ass woman in the body of a child. Yeah. It's one of my favorite performances of all time. Give me another category. What's. What's. What's one that's on your mind?

Sam Ekman (78:00)

What are we. What have we not discussed yet?

Matt Koplik (78:05)

Everything.

Sam Ekman (78:06)

Everything.

Matt Koplik (78:06)

We haven't discussed a goddamn thing.

Sam Ekman (78:08)

Okay. This is a category most people probably don't care about, but God damn it, I want your life's love to win best scenic design. Yeah. And so many people are not predicting that. And I'm like, did we not step into the disco? I unabashedly loved Here Lies Love. So I have no qualifications of my adoration for it. And I just can't, like, I feel like people are picking weird things for that category. The seven nominee category, it is Here.

Matt Koplik (78:42)

Lies Love, Cabaret, Lempicka Lemplica, Water for Elephants, Back to the Future, Hell's Kitchen. What's the seventh?

Sam Ekman (78:52)

The Outsiders.

Matt Koplik (78:53)

Oh, they got a set design nomination. Fascinating.

Sam Ekman (78:56)

Okay.

Matt Koplik (78:57)

I mean, of those seven. Yeah. Your Lies Love is my vote.

Sam Ekman (79:01)

It's sadly the only thing I'm predicting it for right now.

Matt Koplik (79:05)

They're not getting anything.

Sam Ekman (79:06)

But I, I just know a lot of people who have Hell's Kitchen and. Which is like, no disrespect to Hell's Kitchen, but you have like, we have a disco on the Broadway theater. We have a DeLorean that's flying and we have recreated theaters. Like, it's crazy. We've got.

Matt Koplik (79:26)

Well, if we're not going to give it to Here Lies Love, then you got cabaret with the KitKat Club of, you know, totally redoing a theater. Just the sheer magnitude of that. And I don't love giving awards for most, not best.

Sam Ekman (79:37)

But that is what happens that's what.

Matt Koplik (79:39)

Happens every now and then with set design. They'll give it to one that isn't most. You know, with the Bob Crowley once design over pretty much everything else that season. I also remember the year of Piazza, how thrown a lot of people were that they swept the design categories because everyone thought Chitty Chitty Bang Bang had set in the bag. And then there was another show with costumes that everyone thought, oh, I think people thought like Spamalot was gonna win costumes. And then it went to Piazza and there were a lot of folks who were baffled because they were like, I didn't see an ounce of glitter on lighting the piazza. There was no flying car in Piazza. And everyone that came to its defense, me included, was like, if you were in that theater, you get why it won. Like, that design was beautiful and perfect for what that show was trying to be. And it wasn't overwhelming you with money. It was just perfectly curated. And I don't know if there's a set design in a musical this year outside of Here Lies love that I feel that way about. I think that Cabaret's design is perhaps the most impressive thing about that production.

Sam Ekman (80:45)

And I'm wondering how much this is. The interesting thing about Cabaret at the Kit Kat Club is that are people going, how much are people going to consider the pre show elements when they're thinking about these awards? Right? Because when you actually just see, sit and watch the show, most of it's just taking place on this small stage in the semi round and there's a platform in the center that raises and lowers. But the design of what actually is on the physical stage is not the selling point. It's like everything else around it is the selling point.

Matt Koplik (81:22)

It's the auditorium and the lobby and all of that. And I think that gets taken into account. It kind of has to. It's all part of the aesthetic experience. Listen, is Cabaret my vote for set design? No, but that is what I'm currently predicting. I mean, I just don't love how that floor, when it raises up like a wedding cake, has all that glitter around it. Because I said this in my rankings when Bebe north was doing what would you do? Which I thought she did quite well. When they raised the platforms for her on that big money note, I was like, can you just let the woman sell it? Do we need the wedding cake right now in the third act of this Nazi musical? Do we need it? No, it's. This is no bueno. Get it out of here. I don't want it. I Don't want it in my room, but that's how I feel there. I feel like with design, there's so many things that I feel like could be so obvious in retrospect, and we're just not seeing it right now. Like, Suffs with costume design, I feel like that's just so obvious of a winner lighting design. I don't. I don't know. Part of me is like, outsider is such an obvious winner. But, like, what about Illinois?

Sam Ekman (82:27)

I have the Outsiders, but Illinois could take that, I think. Actually all the lighting design nominees are.

Matt Koplik (82:33)

Really beautiful work, which it's a solid category, I gotta say.

Sam Ekman (82:37)

I feel like. I feel like the Outsiders has the most, like, obvious lighting design, which is. It's. That's sometimes what wins because it also, it.

Matt Koplik (82:47)

It makes you wonder if a show, whichever show does end up winning Musical, what are gonna be the other wins that it gets? Unless they pull a Two Gentlemen of Verona, strange loop and, like, they just win musical. And one other thing which can happen.

Sam Ekman (83:04)

And I think that could be, like, if Suffs is our winner this year, I think it will be that year because I could see Suffs winning book and score, which would, I would argue are the two most important ones that you want to win. It may just win that and that's it. Because I feel like we haven't talked about director yet, but I feel like Maria Friedman is out front. I actually think Danya Taymor has such a cool concept for the Outsiders. And I've said this a lot of times, but when you watch that show, it is just so clearly a director show. You can see her imprint all over it. The staging is just so fascinating, and her storytelling is fascinating to me. But I feel like Maria Friedman has been the biggest story. And that's the. The thing is, Merrily is such a huge force that it's going to eat up a lot of the musical awards, I think. And so whatever wins best Musical might have a fairly small tally.

Matt Koplik (84:04)

Yeah, I think this is a year, which has happened in the past, where Revival will walk away with more wins than the actual musical winner. That it.

Sam Ekman (84:12)

But.

Matt Koplik (84:12)

But what I mean is, you know, all five best musical nominees have a chance to get, like, three or four wins if certain things line up in a certain way. Like, let's say that Illinois does win musical. They could sweep with their. With their nominations for orchestrations, sound. It's orchestrations, lighting, and choreography. Like, that could just be. Because that has also happened. I loved. I love bringing the story up. It's one of my Favorite things of all time. The year that my beloved Carousel was nominated in 1994, it was considered that they underperformed with nominations because they only got five, whereas she Loves Me got nine. And I think Dan Yankees also got five. And then Carousel just continued, just proceeded to win every single one of its awards and ended up having the most wins of the night, whereas Passion and Beauty and the beast also had 10. And they were like, oh, no, sorry, we were nominated for five. One. All five. Sorry, Flops. I'm like, what if Illinois pulls that? Like, only four? But they went all four. It. I'm not saying that that will happen, but as you said earlier, there's no consensus about anything. So with that in mind, like, anything can happen. I wonder, like, can Hell's Kitchen win if they lose Book and director and choreography, though?

Sam Ekman (85:25)

Yeah, I don't Hell's Kitchen would need, because I don't have Hell's Kitchen out front for book. And so, like, that's a huge one to miss. So then it really needs, I feel, either choreography or director. And I don't know. I mean, Michael Greif could get a lot of support. He did direct three freaking musicals this season, and he's never won.

Matt Koplik (85:46)

It's also a bad look to have five nominees, and the one who wins is the only man.

Sam Ekman (85:50)

Yeah. And I feel like that's not something people want to say, but that is, like, has to be in people's minds.

Matt Koplik (85:56)

And it's.

Sam Ekman (85:56)

You know, it's.

Matt Koplik (85:57)

It'd be one thing if it was Alex Timbers for Here Lies Love. I feel like that would be a winner if you. If Alex Numbers were nominated. Should it? Yes. I'm agreeing with you, but saying if. Let's say Alex Numbers was nominated and, like, pulled a surprise win for Heroes. Love. I don't think there's a narrative where people will be upset about it. It would be considered a creative win that people were happy with. But Michael Greif, I think even if you like Hell's Kitchen, he's objectively done the least of the five in that category, in my opinion. Well, I said objectively then. I said in my opinion, objectively, in.

Sam Ekman (86:28)

My opinion, because my opinion is the.

Matt Koplik (86:30)

Well, so we have. We have Maria Friedman, who the narrative is she fixed. Merrily. Don't agree that she fixed it, but it is the best. It's worked probably in a long time, if ever.

Sam Ekman (86:38)

And it's the biggest hit of the.

Matt Koplik (86:40)

Season and the biggest. And the biggest music of the season, for sure. Daniel Taymor. Is it Daniel or Danya, Daniel. I think it's Daniel, but Daniel Taymor, someone. Well, someone who has been sort of on the periphery of Broadway for a minute. Is this sort of young. I don't say up and comer because she's been established for a while, but with Broadway, this is very much like a she's here, you know, she's. She's made an impression. The show is selling really well. As you said, it is a directory musical. I think she's done a really beautiful job. Jessica Stone, while I have issues with water for elephants, I have said before, I think that this is sort of her, the second of her 1, 2, 3, punch as a director. Because Kimberly Akimbo, where she's like, I can totally helm a well written, well acted musical. Set the tone, make sure everyone's in the same show. Maybe my staging isn't like Alex Timbers level, but like everything is compact. And then her second show is, oh, you want imaginative staging.

Sam Ekman (87:32)

Circus.

Matt Koplik (87:33)

Yeah.

Sam Ekman (87:33)

Bam.

Matt Koplik (87:34)

Watch me go. And then her third musical is gonna be like, watch me combine both. So it's the level up. But I think a lot of what makes that production work is what she does with it less so than the actual writing. She covers up a lot of the flaws of it. The fact that there's still flaws showing is another story.

Sam Ekman (87:50)

And then maybe Jessica Stone's third one will be flies, exclamation point.

Matt Koplik (87:55)

The one woman show is Celia Kimball, Jer and then Leigh Silverman. You know, I think that what she did in that show is sort of similar to what Jessica Stone did with Kimberly Akimbo. She helmed this smaller show with a strong cast and really she and Shayna combined made it much more improved. From off Broadway to Broadway. That's the narrative with Suffs is everyone goes. If you saw it downtown, you won't believe how much better it got. And a lot of the thanks goes to Shayna because she wrote the fucker. But also like Lee is her collaborator. And if Nathan Lane taught us anything on social media this week, collaboration is very important.

Sam Ekman (88:30)

It's key.

Matt Koplik (88:31)

It's key. No one is an island. I don't care. I don't care what anyone says. You don't know one person thought of everything for a show. It's all collaborative. So if subs is improved, it's because Shayna and Lee held hand in hand and said, keep marching.

Sam Ekman (88:45)

Oh, yeah.

Matt Koplik (88:46)

And Hillary Clinton said, I'll throw $2 into that.

Sam Ekman (88:49)

I think it was more than two, though.

Matt Koplik (88:51)

Seven. Okay, $7. Malala put in 50.

Sam Ekman (88:55)

She's the real brains. She is.

Matt Koplik (88:57)

She is. Okay, let's take one more break.

Sam Ekman (89:01)

Okay, Billy, I beg to differ with you.

Matt Koplik (89:03)

How do you mean? You're the top. Yeah. You're an arrow collar. You're the top. You're a Coolidge dollar. You're the nimble tread of the feet of red. And we back. Let's throw some love to plays again. I was really happy with plays. So what I wanted to do, though, which we didn't really do, we just talked because that's how this podcast works. Let's find a category, and then I'm not going to say bullshit. I want you to talk to me about your thought process through the nominees and how you would make your prediction for how.

Sam Ekman (89:38)

How they're going to win.

Matt Koplik (89:40)

What would make you predict them winning? Yeah.

Sam Ekman (89:44)

Well, since we haven't discussed it yet, let's. I have to find it on my handy dandy phone because I'm a visual person and I don't remember things unless I can see them. But let's talk about director of a play.

Matt Koplik (89:56)

Great.

Sam Ekman (89:57)

Since we haven't been there yet.

Matt Koplik (89:58)

Yes. Our nominees are.

Sam Ekman (90:01)

They are Daniel Aukin for Stereophonic, Kenny Leon Pearly Victorious, Anne Kaufman, Mary Jane, Lila Neugebauer for Appropriate, and Whitney White for Ja Jaw's African hair Braiding.

Matt Koplik (90:15)

That is a really good lineup.

Sam Ekman (90:17)

It's a great lineup.

Matt Koplik (90:20)

I love that lineup.

Sam Ekman (90:21)

It's a really fucking fantastic lineup. Before nominations came out, I had both a hunch that Ann Kaufman and Whitney White were going to get in despite no one predicting them to get in. And so I didn't pull the trigger on it because I couldn't figure out which of them was going to, like, unseat one of the front runners. And it was both of them because Rupert Gould and David Cromer both did not make the cut.

Matt Koplik (90:50)

Or Sam Gold, right?

Sam Ekman (90:52)

Oh, I said Rupert Gould. Sam Gold.

Matt Koplik (90:55)

Well, I. I actually had Rupert Gould in there over David Cromer at first because while I appreciated Patriots, didn't love it. I was like, that is a lot of play and a lot of directing.

Sam Ekman (91:05)

It's a lot of directing.

Matt Koplik (91:06)

Yeah.

Sam Ekman (91:06)

So that I did.

Matt Koplik (91:06)

It's a lot of British directing, and they tend to like that.

Sam Ekman (91:10)

So I think this is an amazing lineup. At the start of the season, I would have told you that Lila would win this hands down for Appropriate. But then Stereophonic has happened, and I feel like I've solidified that. Those two are kind of the front runners. The way I've done that is saying, well, let's look at if we take into account recency bias, those two shows are still running. Whereas something like Ja Jazz, even though I loved Whitney White's work there, and Kenny Leon for Pearly Victorious, they are no longer running. Though we should remember directors sometimes, like Christopher Ashley won for Come From Away and it was a total surprise, the only win for that show. So there can be surprises in the directing categories and especially on the plays side. I think closed plays are have a better chance at winning Tonys than closed musicals do. Overall. There are, of course, exceptions to every rule. Stats are only made to be broken.

Matt Koplik (92:17)

Yeah, trends are meant. Trends are made to be.

Sam Ekman (92:19)

Yeah, but it's a chance. But it's still something that hurts it. And then Mary Jane's direction, I feel like people are mostly gaga about the actors in Mary Jane. That seems to be what everyone comes away with.

Matt Koplik (92:37)

Which. Which also, to be fair, I bring this up a lot. That is thanks to directing and cough like the fact that if you don't understand why Ann Kaufman's direction to Mary Jane with those actors is so incredible, I urge you to go see Uncle Vanya where no one's in the same play.

Sam Ekman (92:53)

Well, I understand why Mary.

Matt Koplik (92:55)

I know, Samuel, but I'm telling the.

Sam Ekman (92:57)

Listeners public, the general public, and you.

Matt Koplik (93:00)

Can be a great director and sometimes still have a play where all of your actors are in different things and everyone in Vanya is an incredible actor. But that was a case where it was all these different islands kind of circling around each other and no one culminating into one full country. And in Mary Jane, it is one big old track of land that everyone is on together thanks to Fearless Leader and Coffin. But I agree with you. I don't think she's a frontrunner.

Sam Ekman (93:24)

It's not. It's not the most directing. Yes. Which is something that we often coin a lot when doing. Like, it's because it's about what sticks out to you the most in your mind maybe weeks, months after you've seen something. The things that are the most of anything, the biggest are the things that stand out that, you know, survive the test of time a little bit more. And Mary Jane has a lot of, like, gorgeous, beautiful, subtle moments. Even the big moment with a set piece, which I won't spoil if people haven't seen it, because you should go see it. It's beautiful. Even though it feels big for that show, it is still, like, quiet in the way that it gives you that gut punch. So I've kind of landed, barring any surprise on Daniel Ocken and. And Lila. But Lila is going for the classic family drama. Big shouty outbursts, big acting. Ends with a bang with that epilogue and all the changes going through that. That plantation house. So it is definitely. She checks off like a million boxes for director.

Matt Koplik (94:42)

I do think that ending is what's going to win them. Set design of a play.

Sam Ekman (94:44)

Sure.

Matt Koplik (94:45)

In my humble.

Sam Ekman (94:47)

I agree with you. And even. Well, no, that's a lie. I was going to say another design, but that's a lie. Probably set design, is it? I was just thinking of the other nominees and said, never mind. But. But Stereophonic, I think, has become such a juggernaut. People cannot stop talking about. Really overperformed in nominations. And I think the real magic trick of his directing of it is that it could be so mundane. And really, in many cases, they are talking about mundane things or doing mundane things. Like, Chris Stack adjusts his drum set for, I don't know, like, 15 fucking minutes or something.

Matt Koplik (95:36)

That whole sequence. Oh, my God.

Sam Ekman (95:37)

But it's amazing. Like, I was so captivated for like 3 hours and 50, 15 minutes. Never once felt bored. When it ended, I was like, let's get this fucker around again. Like, I want to go through it and, like, see what I didn't pick up on the first time. And not only did he make mundane conversations interesting and these quiet moments interesting and captivating, but the acting feels like you've just kind of like dropped in and are observing like a hidden fly on the wall. Everyone feels really natural. No one is pushing. They're just like playing real humans, which sometimes is a tall order for. For certain productions, but everyone is just like such a, you know, every person on the stage. And that's hard to pull off.

Matt Koplik (96:33)

I think there are also productions where even with the acclaim, even with the momentum, you can clock. Sorry, you can clock a weak spot, whether it's someone in the cast or whatever. And there are a couple of shows this year that I wouldn't necessarily say Juggernauts, but successful shows that have those moments where we can identify. Like, that's not as up to par as the rest of it. And it's been discussed openly with a lot of people this year. And with Stereophonic, like, there's no one in that cast that is a weak spot in any way. It is an airtight ensemble. Same thing I felt about Ja Jaw's African hair braiding. I was like, everyone on that stage is fucking killing it. And, you know, the design is incredible. The songs all are good. And also no crumbs. No, they left no crumbs. And they left no.

Sam Ekman (97:22)

No crumbs in acting and no crumbs in drugs on stage.

Matt Koplik (97:26)

Truly.

Sam Ekman (97:26)

I mean, that whole bag.

Matt Koplik (97:28)

Who needs a bagel? Who needs a bagel for breakfast when you can have cocaine? Who needs a steak for dinner when you can have cocaine? And who needs bread or cake when you can have cocaine? That's what. That's what Stereoponic says it is. Their breakfast, lunch, and dinner.

Sam Ekman (97:40)

That's what I learned from the play. What was your takeaway?

Matt Koplik (97:44)

I learned that Don't look now is a lot deeper of a movie than anyone ever realized.

Sam Ekman (97:48)

Oh, my God. Truly. I wanted to go watch it.

Matt Koplik (97:50)

Well, you know what? I know I mentioned this either on the pod or I brought it up in my video review of Stereophonic. That section where Juliana Canfield is talking about don't look now. And everyone's like, why is that in there? This thing is so long. Cut it. And I'm like, first of all, it's so cool to watch artists talk about art that isn't theirs. To watch someone praise the work of someone else in a medium that is not their own. It shows you that character's intelligence, her insight, and her appreciation of. Of something that made an impact on her and ultimately speaks to the higher level of, why do we do this at all if not to, like, make something that makes this kind of impression on somebody?

Sam Ekman (98:34)

Right. It goes back to the fact that everything feels so natural, because it's like, the why of, why is she saying this? Because real people in real life don't say, like, well, I'm feeling a certain type of way, and I have to do a monologue about it. Like, we talk about things that connect with us. It's like a really beautiful, way, smart way of doing that on stage.

Matt Koplik (98:58)

Yeah. Because art. Art is ultimately how we all connect and communicate with each other. And I don't mean, like art, but anything that we consume, any entertainment that we consume, is how we learn more about the world, ourselves, each other, and how, you know, think about your friendships and the movies or TV shows or books or musicals that you connect on, that you love about. The gay community has both united and turned against each other every season of Drag Race based off of who won and who won any lip sync, any. Any night. And while we all get mad at each other, we do kind of unite every Friday night to see, like, okay, who are we gonna fight about this week? And that. But, like, that is art in its own way. It's not, you know, Picasso. It's not. Don't look now, but it is Sasha Velour. It's. It's Sasha Velour. And the rose petals, that. That became a moment, a moment that we all can now identify and become short term for. For vocabulary. That is. That is sort of what stereophonic is tapping into in its own way. And I don't think that that's either one of us reaching very far, because I know I'm not terribly intelligent. So for me to come to that conclusion, I feel like it's just there.

Sam Ekman (100:09)

We just have BFAs. We're not intelligent at all. We don't do.

Matt Koplik (100:12)

Oh, I know I'm not intelligent because I had a teacher who would tell me what to think about all the shows out there. He would say, no, that writer's not a good writer. You're mistaken. No, that's not a good song. Never sing that again.

Sam Ekman (100:24)

Oh, see, I pushed back. Like when teachers tried to say, you need to read David Mamet, I'd be like, why the fuck do I need.

Matt Koplik (100:31)

To do that, Samuel? Do you really think I didn't push back?

Sam Ekman (100:34)

No, I think you did.

Matt Koplik (100:35)

I was the only one who did. They'd be like, why are you singing Jason Robert Brown? I'm like, because everyone in New York is. And if I don't know how to sing Jason Robert Brown, I'm never going to be able to get in any room. Idiot. He's like, well, why not sing more Malpea and Shire? I'm like, I love Malpea and Shire. Who's singing that for Newsies? Scat. You don't go into Telsey. And they go, all right, Kinky boots. What do you. What are you gonna sing for us? I'm like, I'm gonna sing I Don't Remember Christmas from Starting Here, Starting Now. Thank you ever so much.

Sam Ekman (101:02)

God, the amount of obscure songs I had in my book at the end of college was nuts.

Matt Koplik (101:08)

Oh, yeah.

Sam Ekman (101:08)

Because you're just searching for things. And it's like, this was a terrible choice.

Matt Koplik (101:15)

Milk was a bad choice.

Sam Ekman (101:16)

Milk was a bad choice.

Matt Koplik (101:18)

Yeah. Never tell you when our. I think it was junior year when we had to do scene study in musical theater and I was assigned Death of a Salesman, Biff and happy not to stretch my talents, but because my teacher was like, I give up on you. I'm gonna give you something you'll never ever play. Ever. Have fun with the next year and a half. Fag. He didn't say fag, but it was implied.

Sam Ekman (101:39)

It's always implied.

Matt Koplik (101:40)

And I said, thanks. Enjoy your third Divorce. Anyhow.

Sam Ekman (101:43)

Snaps.

Matt Koplik (101:44)

Snaps. I'm pretty sure I did say that to his face at some point. I feel like, okay, let's. We've been dancing around it, but we're in the Stereophonic of it all. So let's talk about best score.

Sam Ekman (101:55)

Oh, yeah, because this is.

Matt Koplik (101:57)

This is an interesting one.

Sam Ekman (101:58)

Oh, Jesus. Well, I had to eat my hat because in my. In my final Predictions video I did for Gold Derby, I was like, stereophonics not going to get into best Score because, you know, it's not fully underscored. It's just a few songs. Some songs you don't hear in full. But the songs are amazing. And I feel like this is a weird year where, again, there is not a huge consensus on the musicals and we're in a category where there are two closed musicals, Here Lies Love and Days of Wine and Roses for best score. And that leaves the only new musicals there as Suffs and the Outsiders. And so, like, there's a little bit more of a path, I think, for Stereophonic this time, just because of the sheer popularity of it. And even though it isn't scored the whole time, it's just these songs, they're fucking killer songs.

Matt Koplik (102:57)

They are. They're fantastic.

Sam Ekman (102:59)

They're just incredible.

Matt Koplik (103:00)

Well, in addition to them being objectively phenomenal bangers, it is so intelligently made because every. Not every song, but some songs are written by different members of the band and you can tell.

Sam Ekman (103:15)

Yep.

Matt Koplik (103:15)

Like, they just have a.

Sam Ekman (103:16)

Done what?

Matt Koplik (103:17)

Yes. Like, the sound of it sounds like the band. And that's due to the orchestrations, which is a phenomenal nomination.

Sam Ekman (103:22)

I'm predicting it for orchestrations.

Matt Koplik (103:24)

I think that could happen.

Sam Ekman (103:25)

I've moved it up to second place for score because I was like, well, I was really wrong with nominations.

Matt Koplik (103:31)

Yeah.

Sam Ekman (103:32)

So let me reconsider. And I just, like, can't stop hearing people talk about it. And they've also released their album, which was very smart, like, at the right time. So that's all going for it. But the orchestration's like, the moment where they re orchestrate Bright on stage and you see, like, it's a character moment between Tom Bissinka and Sarah Pigeon when he's like, I want you to play the piano because I want it to sound shitty. So that, like, throws her into a certain state. And you watch all of the characters, like, how they fall into that moment and how the song totally changes from what was already good into something totally next level. And I was like, well, that is the power of orchestrations. Like, it's literally displaying to you why they're important on stage.

Matt Koplik (104:20)

And the album has three versions of Bright all, you know those two and then there's a third one in there. So like an up tempo version of Bright as well. And yeah, it's so smart to have it on the album in all those iterations to show you why that orchestration's nomination was deserved. And yeah, a closed show can win score if there is enough consensus around it. Like a Bridges in Madison County. But the thing about Bridges was that what everyone agreed on was that score is good and this might be like Jason R's most romantic score and is up there with his best. In the past, no one I've spoken to has said that Days of Wine and Roses even touches Piazza or Floyd Collins in terms of the Gettle canon. There are people who've appreciated the score. I don't think that that score is a total bust. There are things in there I like. I've been very vocal that I think the first 15 minutes of days of Wine and Roses is a musical that works. And then it's after that where I'm like, now we're getting more conceptual of. We've been doing rough drafts in our living room separately from each other. And then we put it on stage. They're not bad, but they're not integrated and they're not fleshed out enough. And the fact that I feel like that. The fact that that show didn't get a book nomination I think is telling of how people might feel about that material in general.

Sam Ekman (105:41)

It's a very like sophisticated is the word that people keep using for it. And it's really. Which I. I feel like it's kind of a silly word but.

Matt Koplik (105:49)

Well, it's condescending.

Sam Ekman (105:50)

I think it's also about like the. The subject matter and how he is trying to display the character's alcoholism and internal like awful battle through. The music is on the one hand really cool. On another hand, it sometimes makes the music kind of inaccessible in a way. And when you have a mass of people voting on something like 850, so people voting, it becomes about like, how do you get the most amount of people to sit down and see this thing and understand it.

Matt Koplik (106:28)

Yeah.

Sam Ekman (106:28)

And get it. And so when something is divisive or when something feels like you have to work at it or is maybe even an uncomfortable subject matter, which the show is, it becomes really hard to kind of form a consensus of we want this one as the winner. Like, that's why I never predicted it for Best musical is like, you have to have passion behind it. And it's hard to say, not only do I appreciate it, like I appreciate the musical, but I love this musical that made me depressed about alcoholism and it's like, it's a hard sell. Yeah.

Matt Koplik (107:04)

Again, I think every musical this season has its passionate fan base, none of them large enough. And I feel like there's no greater representation of that than, say, Lempicka, which has, you know, by the time we record this, it has a week left of its run. And even with the fervor of its fan base, they still can't sell out the theater in the last two weeks of the run. Definitely not at regular price, I think their last performance is. But the volume with which they speak of the show online would make you think that this has 100,000 fans rallying behind it, that it's, you know, misunderstood and that it will clean up at the Tonys with its three nominations. And that's just not the case. And I think that's true of Days of Wine and Roses. I think that's true of the Notebook and Hell's Kitchen and Here Lies Love and everything. There's. Everything has its fan base and they're all loud. So it's difficult to know which one actually has the largest amount of love because everyone's just shouting at the same pitch.

Sam Ekman (108:03)

And sometimes most of the time, the people shouting are not the people voting. So it just creates a false. A false narrative narrative of, like, you know, the Twitter fans and Instagram fans, like, are not the people who are deciding this. And that's kind of the whole thing about figuring out and making predictions of who wins an award is that again, you're going back to, like, what does this specific group of people think? Because that specific group of people are not these loud fan stands online.

Matt Koplik (108:31)

Interestingly enough, the nominee and score that I think has the fewest caveats going for it is Suffs. And yet I can't put all of my energy behind predicting it. I do think it's between Suffs and Stereophonic, but, like Stereophonic, you know, yes, every song is great and it so intelligently crafted, but it is for a play where it's up against four other musicals, so that's a big detriment. Outsiders. I feel like the score is something that people are fine with but aren't in love with. It serves the story, but it's not amazing on its own. Hero Lies Love is a really good score, but it's a genre of music that I am pretty sure A lot of voters don't take seriously. And, you know, Days of Wine and Roses, very complex, very distancing score. And then Sefs and Stereophonic is. Are sort of top two, but I don't know. I just don't know, Sam.

Sam Ekman (109:24)

Well, it's also like, which songs are you still, like, having in your head without having to, like, look at anything? What are you still singing?

Matt Koplik (109:32)

Everyone's singing Masquerade. That is what is gonna. And people want them to sing Masquerade on the Tonys. And like, that's. It is. It is the heat of Stereophonic that I feel like is pushing it over the edge. In addition to the fact that it is so good and so well done. That momentum really can get you way more wins than you ever thought you could get if. If it's the right kind of momentum.

Sam Ekman (109:55)

And pricing is so hard right now because, let me tell you, none of these shows have advanced sales.

Matt Koplik (110:02)

Like, no, none.

Sam Ekman (110:03)

The. Since the pandemic ticket buying has just totally flipped. No one is buying in advance anymore. It is like, impossible. I don't envy anyone who's trying to launch a new musical because you will not have advanced sales. You're gonna stare down the calendar of these empty houses and it's. And the flip side is, if you start offering things like Lempicka did, like when you offer cheap tickets or comp tickets, your sales drop off a cliff. It is really hard to recover from it because the. Especially New York and Tri State audiences just go, well, I can get that for cheap. So I don't ever need to spend $100 on this ticket. It's really hard to, like, get yourself back into that perception.

Matt Koplik (110:49)

Yeah, the best you could do is to do cheap tickets for the very beginning of your run to get word of mouth going and then up it as it continues. So it's like, buy your tickets now while they're at this price because it's only going to get up from here. And sometimes that works, sometimes it doesn't. Sometimes it's half and half like a Shucked where it started well and then kind of fell off. But I think that that wouldn't have happened if Shucked had won Best Musical. But I also don't think Shucked was ever gonna win Best Musical. But you know what I mean? If they had won, I think that that that pricing strategy would have worked out brilliantly for them.

Sam Ekman (111:22)

Totally.

Matt Koplik (111:22)

Because it worked really well for the first six months. But. Yeah. Are there any other categories you haven't really talked about? We talked about both Directors, we talked about musical play revivals. I mean, Merrily will win revival now. Yeah, that's just gonna happen. There was a moment when I thought maybe Cabaret before Cabaret started a single performance. And ultimately it did overperform with nominations this year. But I also think that's a case.

Sam Ekman (111:44)

Where it gets nine.

Matt Koplik (111:45)

And we'll be fortunate if it wins two or three.

Sam Ekman (111:49)

I think it might not win any. It might be one of those.

Matt Koplik (111:52)

It might not win any record breaker.

Sam Ekman (111:53)

This year of, like, most nominations without a win.

Matt Koplik (111:56)

Most of this year.

Sam Ekman (111:57)

Sure, sure. This year.

Matt Koplik (111:59)

Yeah. That's possible. Very possible.

Sam Ekman (112:02)

Because what is it gonna win? I think, like, BB Maybe.

Matt Koplik (112:06)

I think BB Has a shot. I think they've got a shot for set and costumes, and that's kind of it. Unless Eddie pulls off a surprise somehow. But of all the performances in that show that are the most divided, I think his is the most divisive. People are kind of warming up to Gale these days. I still haven't totally been sold on her performance, but lately people have been more positive on her than him. Eddie is the one that, like, you either love what he's doing or you absolutely hate what he's doing.

Sam Ekman (112:33)

Yeah, I think I have them winning costumes, and that's it. Because featured actors, like, I just feel it's probably Lindsay. I think it's Lindsay. And if anyone's gonna take it from her, I think it might be Keisha.

Matt Koplik (112:44)

Yeah, I. I do think it's among BB Keisha and Lindsay and I would be into the idea of BB Winning. The problem is that, again, I think this production is so. So not controversial. And I don't want to say divisive again, but, like, it's just. It's so polarizing, this production of Cabaret. And the one thing that people have been overall agreed on is that BB And Steven walk away with the show, whereas. But where Lindsay and Daniel make big impressions in a production that more people are liking, it's easier for them to win. So, you know, it's. Who's to say? But I do think that. That we're gonna probably see Merily with revival. Director, actor, then featured actress and featured actor, and we'll call it a day. I was sad they didn't get a costume nomination. I liked the costumes in that show for Merrily. Yeah.

Sam Ekman (113:33)

Yeah. I think when you think of that show, though, I don't necessarily think of all the design elements. First and foremost, it's mostly like it's performance.

Matt Koplik (113:43)

Well, not this. Not the set, but, you know, the. I think the costumes do the heavy lifting of getting us in the right time period for every time we move backwards. And I would have liked them to get nominated for costumes over Hell's Kitchen, but, you know, Malaya's jersey and colorful.

Sam Ekman (114:04)

It's 90s. 90s are in right now. As I. When I try to go buy clothes and I'm like, where the hell do we buy clothes now? I don't. I Already did the 90s. Hashtag old. Hashtag outing myself is very old.

Matt Koplik (114:16)

I was a toddler of the 90s, so I didn't do any of the fashion trends. I wore little sweaters. Not crew cut sweaters. But what's the. Is crew cut a thing you can.

Sam Ekman (114:30)

Refer to, like, that's just like the normal.

Matt Koplik (114:33)

The neck, right? Yeah. Crew cut sweaters, then. Yeah. Sorry. I don't know the terms, but I.

Sam Ekman (114:39)

Think Hell's Kitchen could win costumes just because it is colorful. And like, literally, fashion right now go into H and M and it is all like, beige, taupe, earth tones. I think hell's kitchen's colorful 90 clothes on stage.

Matt Koplik (114:52)

Hell's Kitchen getting the nomination for costumes is a really huge get because nominators have always been so snobby towards modern dress in shows they don't. They almost never nominate it. They never award it. But we see this with Hell's Kitchen. We see it with appropriate. We even see it with Jaja's African hair braiding, although that is a more outlandish, modern day design. And I would love it if they won, but I think it's probably going to be Enemy of the People, but. Or Stereophonic, which is another.

Sam Ekman (115:22)

I have Jaja winning.

Matt Koplik (115:23)

I would love it. I would love it if Jaws, I think. I think Jaja's Enemy of the People in Stereophonic are three amazing costume designs for very different reasons and very different eras. And I would love it if that happened. But it's just so difficult for modern dress to win because nominators don't know how to make sense of it. Like, what makes it good design. There are all these video essays regarding that with movies and Oscars, how, like, the Oscars never do that and why Devil versus Prada getting nominated was, like, such a huge deal. But, yeah, I don't know. It's.

Sam Ekman (115:55)

It's.

Matt Koplik (115:55)

It's just. It's tricky. Again, people go for most often not necessarily best.

Sam Ekman (116:01)

That's why we have different. For the sound design categories and orchestrations, they're decided on by a smaller subset of voters who have declared themselves, you know, we know what we're talking about because so many voters don't actively don't know what they're talking about and don't know how to judge sound design.

Matt Koplik (116:21)

Which makes it even more egregious that Sweeney won. But that happened a year ago. I have to. The show is closed now. I need to let it go.

Sam Ekman (116:30)

Were you aggrieved?

Matt Koplik (116:31)

I was very aggrieved. I've seen that production twice. I saw it right after they opened in the center orchestra, and I felt like the giant orchestra was a mile away. And then I saw it a year into the run. Joe Locke had come in as Tobias. Aaron did not show up yet as Sweeney. It was Nick Christopher. We were in the mezzanine, my friend and I. And the orchestra felt a lot closer, but behind a wall of velvet. And I still was angry about that sound design.

Sam Ekman (116:57)

Really? Oh, I didn't have that experience. I just remember I didn't predict it literally because so many people complained about not having the factory whistle in it. And I was like, they've removed the factory whistle. They won't win sound design. And then that was wrong.

Matt Koplik (117:10)

Well, that's why Tommy Kail didn't get a director nomination. But we're not gonna. We don't punish the sound designers for doing what the director asked. So. Listen, Gay. Yeah. I don't know. Trying to think of any other major design categories we haven't talked about. We did costumes. I mean, lighting for play. I'm gonna give that one to stereophonic. I'm also gonna give stereophonic sound, which is, if ever there was something that.

Sam Ekman (117:32)

Was for lighting of a play, I think appropriate thanks to that epilogue that could happen. There's a lot of, like, you know, day to night work with the lighting in that play, just in general, which often gets. That's a win. That's, like, why Long Day's Journey into Night won. And I was the only person on Gold river who predicted it. Thank you.

Matt Koplik (117:54)

You can't see it, but he just tossed his hair.

Sam Ekman (117:56)

So cute. But I feel like appropriate is a similar kind of thing in a world where, like, I feel like the most obvious lighting of that group is Greyhouse, which is very, very far away at this point. Oh, yeah. So and then the epilogue comes in and you're like, bam.

Matt Koplik (118:17)

It's appropriate.

Sam Ekman (118:18)

Enemy of the People, Stereophonic Greyhouse and Prayer for the French Republic.

Matt Koplik (118:23)

Oh, prayer. Okay. Yeah. So I'm gonna put Prayer at the bottom, Greyhouse at number four because it's better lighting, but it is close and far away. And then I'll say Enemy the People, Appropriate and Stereophonic. I think those topics two definitely will battle out. The thing is, with Stereophonic, it's, it's. It also has a similar vibe of appropriate where the lighting is very subtle until it's not. And some people might just sort of do stereophonic down the ballot or they might do appropriate down the ballot. There's also the flashes of light they do every time they open up the. The photo album.

Sam Ekman (118:59)

Oh, I forgot about that.

Matt Koplik (119:01)

I didn't see.

Sam Ekman (119:03)

I was thinking I have Enemy of the People above Stereophonic for lighting because they like have that whole moment where they open the play with all the lighting of the lamps. And I think there's just. It's.

Matt Koplik (119:14)

It's a beautifully designed show. Yeah, I'm ha. Listen, if any of the people wins anything, I'm not gonna complain because I loved that production. But also, I also wouldn't be mad if Appropriate one sound design purely for the gay porn playing off a Sarah Paulson's son's phone. Because that is such a. That's a specific sound design.

Sam Ekman (119:33)

What was the research for that sound design?

Matt Koplik (119:36)

They called me up and they said, matt, what's the last thing you watched? And I said, the last thing. I'm willing to tell you this. They go, great. And they go, well, it sounds super obvious to the audience that it's gay porn. And I said it'll sound obvious to 95% of your audience. Because I was talked to someone the other day who saw Appropriate and they didn't realize it was gay porn. They thought it was like he was watching a wrestling match or something because.

Sam Ekman (119:57)

Oh my God, it was a wrestling match.

Matt Koplik (119:59)

Or like. Yeah. Cuz they were like. I just sounded like men cursing each other. Like they were cursing into each other, not at each other.

Sam Ekman (120:06)

Some people are so cute with their naivete.

Matt Koplik (120:08)

Yeah. Oh, sweetie, sweetie, honey boo boo child. No, no, sweetie. They're not punching each other. They're punching into each other.

Sam Ekman (120:16)

It's a different kind of wrestling.

Matt Koplik (120:18)

It's a young boys playing leapfrog.

Sam Ekman (120:23)

I have young boys on my girls on mine. Don't you?

Matt Koplik (120:27)

It's been a long time since you've seen a. Seen a girl.

Sam Ekman (120:30)

He started with the birdcage. Because I will sit here and quote the whole movie from start to finish for you.

Matt Koplik (120:36)

What the hell are you giving. What the hell are Purin tablets?

Sam Ekman (120:40)

I don't want to do it because.

Matt Koplik (120:41)

Say this one thing.

Sam Ekman (120:41)

They'll cancel me for the accent.

Matt Koplik (120:43)

You don't have Hank Azaria doesn't have an accent. It's fine. It's his character. Just say. Just say the line. Don't you have to do the accent?

Sam Ekman (120:49)

It is an aspirin with the A. And they are scraped off.

Matt Koplik (120:52)

My God, what a brilliant idea.

Sam Ekman (120:53)

I know.

Matt Koplik (120:53)

There we go. Thank you so much, babe. Thank you for indulging me. Has he been tested? Oh, Kevin. Yes. And so have I. Ah, Diane Weiss in that movie. Somebody's got to like me best.

Sam Ekman (121:06)

She is really the unsung hero of.

Matt Koplik (121:08)

She's the unsung hero in everything she fucking does. That movie is just. Everyone is.

Sam Ekman (121:12)

Is.

Matt Koplik (121:13)

No one came to play in that movie. Everyone came to murder.

Sam Ekman (121:16)

Right?

Matt Koplik (121:16)

It's incredible. Young Calista Flockhart fresh off of doing Glass Menagerie on Broadway with Jessica Tandy. I'm pretty sure. Or is it. Or is it Judith Ivy? Judith Ivey? Yeah. It's so good. Stephen Sondheim wrote a song for that movie. It's a dumb song, but intentionally so. Come little dream before you're gone let's get it on. Sondheim wrote that lyric. You can find it in finishing that. It's so good. I love that. Everything about that movie is perfect.

Sam Ekman (121:42)

Blowing bubbles with his gum.

Matt Koplik (121:44)

He can't do that while I'm singing. So Birdcage isn't nominated for anything this Tony season.

Sam Ekman (121:50)

It should be every year. We should see what it could beat. Or not.

Matt Koplik (121:55)

Maybe I'll make one of the presenters for my fake Tony categories online. Someone from Birdcage.

Sam Ekman (122:00)

Oh, my God.

Matt Koplik (122:01)

Yeah, maybe it's the. I see what you're doing in tbh Bravo performance of the year presented by Diane Wiest and Calista Flockhart from the Birdcage. Sam. When people are going ahead and making their predictions this year, any advice for them as they try to win their Tony pools?

Sam Ekman (122:21)

You should go to GoldDerby.com and copy me, because that's what everyone does, I guess. But no, I think you should kind of remove your own likes. If you're actually looking at what do I want to, you know, I want to get the best score and I want to, you know, beat all my friends. Then you should kind of remove your own biases. It can be hard to do when you really love something, but it's not kind of what the. What the. The masses of this Tony voting pool are going for or the industry is going for. And. And just. Just think objectively about it rather than emotionally about it. And I kind of think that's a good thing for the nominees to think about too, because there's a Lot like, there's so many, I think people, because again, the Tony have this kind of like advertising power. And there are a lot of people in the industry, I think, who like desperately want a nomination or a win because it'll like, they think, oh, this will get my, like, next project funded or I'll have so much more choice or opportunity after this. But there's so many crazy variables that go into getting a win. Like we've talked about, like all the narratives. Is your show open or closed? Is it overall popular with nominators? There's so many stars that have to align and this season you can point to so many people who didn't get in, who we love, that just go with the flow, enjoy the night and take the emotion out of it as much as you can.

Matt Koplik (124:05)

Yeah. There's an old interview I remember watching, it was when Gavin Creel was nominated for Hair and that was the Billy Elliot's. And he talked about how somebody had said to him, oh, we're, you know, we're rooting for you. And he said, I appreciated the sentiment, but this is a weird kind of race. And he goes, you know, this. I can't actually run, you know, I can't run faster than the Billy Elliot's. He goes, it's just a matter of doing what we do and seeing who likes it. He goes, so the pressure is kind of off. It would be nice to win, but the pressure's off. And I'm happy that there are people who like what I'm doing, but it's, it's. You can't really root for anyone. Like, I hope it's you. It's like, I can't, I can't do it any better than I'm doing. I just. You gotta hope that out of 800, 650 of them, like you, or at the very least 410, that's.

Sam Ekman (124:55)

So I asked, I got to interview Betsy Adam this season and I asked her because she has been in a few, two plays that have won best play even though she wasn't nominated before, this is her first year individually. But I was like, what's that like? After your show wins best play and has such a huge moment at the Tonys, then what happens when you go back to your theater and she's like, you just still have to do the show. We're still just telling the story. And I think that's a real testament to the people in this business because it's just, it's not like film and TV where you've already done the thing and you're just like, I get to have this really cool moment all about me and just like live on that for forever. Like, you still have to go to work every day and, like, find a way to make that interesting every day.

Matt Koplik (125:41)

What changes is the audience. Audience expectation changes. And that can be for the better, it can be for the worse. Sometimes you win and people show up and go, all right, prove it to me. But more often than not, after a win, they go in excited. They tend to go in with their arms crossed when you are a high priced hot ticket and like, Well, I paid 500 bucks. Be amazing.

Sam Ekman (126:03)

And it's like, oh, God, I don't.

Matt Koplik (126:04)

I don't know about that. But if you win, then they go, oh, I'm seeing the winner. That's fun. That's exciting. Yeah. I mean, no one, Sorry, I should say most audiences had no idea who China was prior to Paradise Square. And then after her win, you know, every night she would come on stage to massive entrance applause, you know, for the five more nights that they had. But.

Sam Ekman (126:25)

Oh, no. Oh, no, it's fine.

Matt Koplik (126:27)

She got paid for four out of the five.

Sam Ekman (126:31)

What?

Matt Koplik (126:32)

Garth doesn't pay people. We all know this. Sorry. So, Sam, this has been lovely.

Sam Ekman (126:38)

It has been lovely. Matt, thank you.

Matt Koplik (126:40)

Thank you for coming in and giving us your expertise. Where can people find you if you want them to find you?

Sam Ekman (126:45)

Oh, well, you can head to Gold Derby and I am listed there and I'm on Instagram at Sam Eckman. C K M A N N. She's.

Matt Koplik (126:55)

A double N and that's all she wrote. If you want to follow me, I'm on Instagram only. Matt Koplik. Usual spelling. If you like the podcast, you can give us a nice 5 star rating or 5 star review. I had recently given the props. The prompt I should say to the listeners because I did a Q and A for the Tony reactions. And every now and then when I do a Q and A, somebody asks about a video of me singing Life of the Party from the gay men's TV cabaret that I did in February. And I was like, I'm pretty sure it's like three people who want this and they keep asking, but it feels like more. And so I said, okay, guys, I would like to get a certain number of ratings by the end of May. And we were at 198 a week and a half ago when I made this prompt. I said, if we can get to 215 by the end of May, I will post it. Which I thought was A high bar because I don't get. I average like six a month. Six ratings a month, maybe one review a month or two reviews a month. But we are now currently at 213 and we've got 18 days to go. I'm pretty sure we did get knocked down one point from 4.9 to 4.8, but I think we can get back up there to 4.9 with like 2 more 5 star reviews. 5 star ratings. I should have been specific. Don't just rate it. Give us five stars. But we do.

Sam Ekman (128:15)

If you hate us the fuck out.

Matt Koplik (128:17)

Get the fuck out. People. People can write whatever they want to write. I find that when people are more overwhelmed with hatred for me, it's rarely hatred for the podcast. Their hatred tends to be for the length, which, whatever it's the length that it is, I've leaned into that. People like it, people don't. But more often the bad feedback I get is, you know, I don't like the host. I don't like his attitude, I don't like his voice, I don't like his speech pattern. I don't like anything about him.

Sam Ekman (128:39)

Change everything about yourself and come back to me.

Matt Koplik (128:42)

Who are you? My friend group? But we do have two new reviews and I want to read them real fast to get them their due. So cue the lightning of the Piazza Overture. Five stars. Great podcast. Exclamation point. It's rare to find someone who consistently has great taste and knows what they're talking about, but Matt Koplik is one of the few that is in print. That means it's fact. I have great taste. Sam. Next up, five stars. It's giving Virgo. I would listen to Matt discuss just about anything, but especially Broadway. He is so thoughtful and incredibly knowledgeable. I really appreciate how he does not sugarcoat his more critical opinions. Despite clearly being connected to many in the biz. It also never comes off as condescending, which can often be the case for those who tend toward criticism. I'm sorry, Mother play. Honestly, it's giving Virgo energy and I'm so here for it. If Matt's Big three don't include a Virgo placement gag, well, you know, I only really like making people gag in certain rooms. So I hate to say this, but I don't have Virgo in any of my three. I am an Aries moon, an Aries sun, and a Cancer rising.

Sam Ekman (129:48)

I don't know all my things, but I know I'm an Aries in most of them.

Matt Koplik (129:52)

Well, the only reason I know this is because people would ask my sign, and I know I'm an Aries. And they would go, that's so crazy for you. Including this one gopher who thought she knew me from five seconds. She was like, you're a cancer, right? And for a second, I was like, you're calling me cancer? She's like, no, you're a cancer. It's like, oh. I said, no, I'm an Aries. She goes, oh, it's maybe like a cancer rising or something. And I was like, I don't know. And turns out I am a cancer rising. So there you go, Gopher. You were right. But I was just tired of people asking me, so I looked it up. So I know forever. No Virgo. I'm so sorry. Nor Gemini or Leo or Taurus. Two Aries is another Cancers.

Sam Ekman (130:27)

For a second, when you read that review, I thought it was just. It's giving Virgo. And that was the whole review, which I really would have appreciated.

Matt Koplik (130:34)

No, someone wrote a review that was like, the title said Tunnel of Love, and the review itself is saying, sideshow episode is awesome. And I went, that's a review. Another person saying, do you want do an episode on Hadestown? I said, maybe so. No. People have been writing really awesome reviews. Someone wrote a really lengthy review last week that I did not know how to take because it was so well written and a little religious y that I was. I just read it. I went, I don't think I can live up to anything you just wrote. There's. There's nothing about me that is worthy of. Of these words. So thank you for the. For the. For the words. And I'm gonna post it on my wall and try to live by it every day. But I'm just a hateful dum dum who's told that he has connections to the biz. I. I'm glad that I gaslit all of my listeners into thinking that she has fans.

Sam Ekman (131:30)

Even hateful dum dums have fans.

Matt Koplik (131:32)

It's two. I know I said I was going to the Water for Elephants listening party, but am I. I know I said that. Stielia, Keenan, Vulture, and I had a moment, but did we? We didn't. I had a moment with Jeanine Story, though. That was fun.

Sam Ekman (131:46)

What we will have is flies, flies, flies.

Matt Koplik (131:50)

Exclamation point. Yes. Musical produced by Diane Wiest.

Sam Ekman (131:53)

I'm going home to write it right now.

Matt Koplik (131:54)

It's gonna be produced by Dan Wiest and Kalista Flockhart. Hank Azaria will do the costumes. Christine Baranski will do the choreography. And who's gonna direct it? Oh, Jessica Stone.

Sam Ekman (132:03)

Jessica Stone will direct.

Matt Koplik (132:04)

Yes, yes, yes, yes, yes. And it's all the leftover costumes from.

Sam Ekman (132:07)

Harmony, and it'll feature a cameo from Andrew Keenan Bolger.

Matt Koplik (132:12)

Just. Yes. And Beth Leavel will play the conch because she's so good at Princess Tracks now.

Sam Ekman (132:20)

Oh, my God. Can you imagine her, like, Beth create a conch noise? She would do it.

Matt Koplik (132:25)

Yeah, she would absolutely do it. You only get to speak when you're holding Beth Leavel. If you don't get that reference, guys, read Lord of the Flies. It's very violent and very good. Sam. We close out every episode with a Broadway diva. Who would you like to close out your episode?

Sam Ekman (132:41)

I'm gonna go with my favorite South Florida Diva, SJB. Ms. Stephanie J. Block.

Matt Koplik (132:49)

Okay, so I guess we're gonna have to do Stephanie J. Block's version of Glitter and be gay.

Sam Ekman (132:55)

Oh, my God. I've never wanted anything more in my life.

Matt Koplik (132:59)

Thank you. Someone said SJB recently, and I don't remember what we picked. The only thing I remember was Boy from Oz song. What's it called you were talking about? We were talking about this earlier. What's her song from Boy from Oz. Oh, loves to hear the music.

Sam Ekman (133:12)

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Matt Koplik (133:13)

Which Ben Brantley wrote in his review. She does this like she's having a breakdown, and they said yes, and that's her specialty. Exactly that. Stephanie J. Block loves a breakdown, and I'm here for it. Why hasn't she ever played Diana next to normal?

Sam Ekman (133:27)

Oh, she would be fantastic. I would pay so much money to see her in Diet as Diana, but.

Matt Koplik (133:32)

Only if she also plays Gabe, since Gabe is part of her psyche. She's got to be playing both parts.

Sam Ekman (133:37)

She could do it.

Matt Koplik (133:38)

She could.

Sam Ekman (133:38)

She has the range.

Matt Koplik (133:39)

She would do it. Not only could she, she would. If you're, like, challenge sjb, she's, like, done.

Sam Ekman (133:46)

I really like the. The two divas that live at the top for me are SJB and Audra. And when Stephanie won her Tony, Adra was presenting that year. And at my Tony party, I knew Stephanie was gonna win. And when Audra, like, walked up to present it, like, hit me what was gonna happen? And I was like, oh, my God, this moment was made for me. And everyone looked at me, and I was like, I'm sorry. I'm a gay theater person, and this is what I do.

Matt Koplik (134:14)

I'm so happy you got that moment. I'm so happy you had that.

Sam Ekman (134:18)

I had it. It was only for me.

Matt Koplik (134:19)

I don't even remember where I was for that Tony ceremony. I just remember watching the Hadestown performance and the Tootsie performance, and I went, one of these things is not like the other. And I enjoyed Tootsie, but I was very disappointed in their. In their performance that night. But I. We move on, Sam. We're gonna close out with sjb. That's what we're gonna do. Stephanie. J.

Sam Ekman (134:36)

Block.

Matt Koplik (134:37)

I'll think of the song. Yes. Thank you so much for listening, guys. Check us back next week. And I believe our guest next week is gonna be friend of the pod, Rob W. Schneider, the host of Broadway Bound, which you should all be listening to if you haven't already. And that's it for now. Take it away, Steffi. Jb.

Sam Ekman (134:55)

Bye.

Matt Koplik (134:56)

Grandpa said look out for men who.

Sam Ekman (134:58)

Think you'll be more certain?

Matt Koplik (135:01)

With men who drink so out I.

Sam Ekman (135:04)

Went to become a wife?

Matt Koplik (135:06)

And found the real love of my life?

Sam Ekman (135:11)

Oh, he was a soldier?

Matt Koplik (135:13)

A fine highland son? He told me about all the battles he'd won?

Sam Ekman (135:18)

He wasted his time telling me.