THE BOYS IN THE BAND w/ John Wascavage

Summary

Broadway Breakdown Podcast
Episode: THE BOYS IN THE BAND w/ John Wascavage
Host: Matt Koplik
Guest: John Wascavage
Release: July 25, 2024

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Episode Overview

This episode of Broadway Breakdown, hosted by the irreverent and passionate Matt Koplik with returning guest and theater mainstay John Wascavage, dives into Mart Crowley’s seminal queer play, The Boys in the Band. In his "Problematic Question Mark" series finale, Matt explores why the play, often accused of perpetuating negative stereotypes about gay men and mired in debate since its 1968 premiere, deserves reexamination. Through their signature blend of deep-dive analysis, historical context, foul-mouthed humor, and lived experience, Matt and John grapple with the show’s legacy, its criticisms, its complicated humanity, and its place in the queer theatrical canon.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

Opening Banter & The Boys' Reputations (00:28 – 04:57)

• Matt welcomes John back with their characteristic raunchy, campy rapport, comparing the emotional trenches of theater to the warfare of queer life.
• John jokes about his history with Boys in the Band, having only recently watched the infamous 1970 film adaptation, preferring it over the Ryan Murphy remake for its rawness and historical authenticity.
• Both Matt and John discuss their entry points: John as a first-timer, Matt via his father, who’d introduced him to the play’s film because of the witty dialogue and sharply drawn characters.

“I'm very glad to be dipping my toes into homosexuality for the first time.”
— John Wascavage (04:54)

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The Play’s Creation, Playwright, and Place in History (17:34 – 36:14)

• Mark Crowley, inspired to write honestly about queer life by a New York Times essay urging playwrights to stop coding gay life into straight characters, wrote Boys in the Band in a mansion while broke and depressed.
• He based lead character Michael on his own experiences of Catholic guilt and self-loathing in the oppressive, closeted queer scene of 1960s Hollywood and New York.
• Crowley faced initial industry resistance. Producer Richard Barr championed the play, despite Edward Albee’s (closeted himself) objections that it would harm the gay community by spotlighting their “worst” qualities.
• Notably, the Off-Broadway original starred a cast with several closeted actors; several would later die of AIDS.

"He wrote it from a place of anger, because he was looking around and seeing all the raids and discrimination ... Even at our most joyous, it’s when we retreat to be with our chosen family.”
— Matt Koplik (29:45)

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The Plot & Character Breakdown (36:33 – 65:01)

The play unfolds over one night at a birthday party among a group of gay men in pre-Stonewall New York. The hosts systematically unpack:

The Characters:

• Michael: Neurotic host, self-loathing, Crowley’s stand-in.
• Donald: Michael’s ex, searching for psychiatric help. Represents the hopeless therapy-for-cure mindset.
• Emory: Flamboyant, effeminate soul, the group’s “queen,” both subject and master of bitchy banter.
• Larry & Hank: A couple at odds over monogamy—Hank, formerly married to a woman, wants stability; Larry craves sexual freedom.
• Bernard: The only Black character, more reserved, close to Emory.
• Alan: Michael’s ostensibly straight college friend, drops in fracturing the group’s camaraderie and forcing long-standing secrets and resentments into the open.
• Cowboy: The dim-witted hustler, Emory’s gift for Harold.
• Harold: Birthday guest of honor, witty, acerbic, self-aware, and Michael’s match in bitchiness.

Dynamics & Key Moments:

• The group’s humor and mutual “reading” expose internalized shame, racism, effeminacy, masculinity, and the search for intimacy.
• Notable: Bernard and Emory’s dynamic—a mutual ribbing rooted in their respective social statuses (race, femininity) but laced with genuine care (52:46).
• The party unravels with Alan’s arrival, leading to Michael’s psychological breakdown and the infamous, devastating phone call “game.”

“You are a sad and pathetic man. You’re a homosexual and you don’t want to be. But there’s nothing you can do to change it—not all your prayers to God, not all the analysis you can buy in all the years you’ve got left.”
— Harold (Leonard Frey), quoting the play (146:18)

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Notable Quotes & Moments

• “When you are family, it’s unconditional love. ... Michael ruins my birthday, but he’s a messy bitch who loves drama, and I love him.”
  — John Wascavage (157:15)
• “For Katherine Vandergrift, why do you find it such an ugly subject, Catherine? ... The reason why more people are coming out is because they feel more comfortable in their skin.”
  — Matt Koplik, referencing historical criticism and its modern echoes (202:22)

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The “Problematic” Question: Critique and Legacy (131:13 – End)

• Matt and John examine charges that the play is irredeemably negative or damaging, noting that only Michael truly embodies self-hate—most other characters are at some level of acceptance or peace.
• The pair compare the original reception (immediate acclaim, followed by gay community backlash post-Stonewall) to the 2018 Ryan Murphy revival’s all-out cast and more nuanced modern perspective.
• They argue that today’s desire for sanitized, purely positive representation flattens the diversity and messiness of queer experience. The play’s messiness, pain, and “nostalgic trashiness” become essential historical truths.

“There’s a difference between problematic and just being uncomfortable. ... The world’s telling you that being queer is not okay. You have to show the struggle.”
— Matt Koplik (198:54)

On the Importance of Messy Representation

• Boys in the Band is a radial act of honesty for its time and still resonates for its acknowledgment of trauma, self-loathing, and chosen family.
• The conversation draws parallels to current trans representation, internet outrage cycles, and the way new generations grapple with art they perceive as “not for them.”

On Alan: Is He Gay or Straight? (160:41 – 170:03)

• Alan’s presence and ambiguous motivations (and his tearful call home to his wife after pressure in ‘the game’) remain a subject of debate, with Matt and John both leaning toward interpreting him as a repressed gay man who cannot accept himself in the boys’ world.

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Legacy & Final Thoughts (196:05 – End)

• The play’s influence is cited by Terrence McNally (Love! Valour! Compassion!), Candis Cayne, and others as “someone had to go first.”
• John points out that art is never perfect, but its “problematic” qualities are part of its humanity and historical context.
• Both agree: dismissing the play as mere doom-and-gloom is reductive. Its humanity, sharpness, and deep hurt are essential. It’s foundational queer art, with modern queer canon standing on its shoulders.

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Timestamps for Key Segments

• 00:28–04:57 – Opening banter and intro to Boys in the Band
• 17:34–36:14 – Mark Crowley’s journey and play’s background
• 36:33–65:01 – Plot summary, character breakdown, and original production context
• 83:18–101:04 – The Play’s dark turn: The “telephone game” centerpiece
• 146:16–147:21 – Harold’s climactic read of Michael
• 152:10–159:14 – Chosen family, mess, and unconditional love
• 196:05–200:00 – Historical perspective, missing “canon,” and the price of honesty
• 202:22–204:00 – Reading a period letter to the NY Times, ongoing cultural cycles

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Tone & Style

• Unfiltered, witty, sometimes profane, with affectionate ribbing and deep compassion.
• Approaches serious topics—AIDS, trauma, homophobia, art and legacy—with a blend of historical literacy and personal vulnerability.
• A celebration of queer history by theater nerds for theater nerds, with a self-deprecatory edge (“You are a mug cake, sweetie”).

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Further Recommendations From Matt & John

• Read William Goldman’s The Season for contemporary accounts of Boys in the Band.
• Watch the 1970 Friedkin film version if possible, for historical context and sharper humor than the Ryan Murphy remake.
• Recognize the continuing relevance of messy, complex queer art and resist the temptation to flatten history for comfort.

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Memorable Closing

“It’s almost as if Michael wants someone to tell him, ‘I hate you.’ Instead Harold says, ‘I understand you. And you know that I do. And believe it or not, you did not burn everything to the ground...’”
— Matt Koplik (159:06)

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Closing Diva: Renée “Riri” Zellweger – because sometimes you need a little razzle dazzle and a queer icon with a cackle.

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For more lively, uncensored, queer, and passionate Broadway nerdery, subscribe to Broadway Breakdown.

Transcript

[Matt Koplik]

In olden days a glimpse of stocky was looked on with something shocking now.

[John Wascavage]

Heaven knows Anything goes.

[Matt Koplik]

Anything goes Anything hello all you theater lovers both out and proud and on the DL. And welcome back to Broadway Breakdown, a podcast discussing the history und legacy of American theater's most exclusive address, Broadway. This series is called Problematic Question Mark, covering shows you're mad at and their possible redemption. I am your host, Matt Koplik, the least famous and most opinionated of all the Broadway podcast hosts.

[John Wascavage]

And.

[Matt Koplik]

And with me today is a giant sunt. That's a C with a sedilla to quote the play we're talking about today. You know him, you all hate him. Hasn't been seen in two years, and we're so angry he's back. Please welcome John with Scavage.

[John Wascavage]

I feel kind of like Rita Repulsa. Just like, just climbing out of that hole, which. I mean, climbing out of the hole.

[Matt Koplik]

I've seen you do it before.

[John Wascavage]

Hey, you know, but enough about my birthday, okay?

[Matt Koplik]

Enough about your birthday. Enough about the after party for Omari at the Eagle.

[John Wascavage]

Oh, God. What I wouldn't have, like, given to be a fly on the wall at that after party.

[Matt Koplik]

Oh, I'm sure it was insane.

[John Wascavage]

Well, I'm sure the fly would have been covered in a lot of bodily fluids to be a fly on that wall.

[Matt Koplik]

Absolutely. You would have been stuck to the wall. Honey. Honey boo boo child. John, thank you so much for coming back to this podcast.

[John Wascavage]

It's so nice to be back. It feels a little bit like returning home from war, but instead of, like, bullets and enemies, just theater.

[Matt Koplik]

I mean, isn't it, in a way, isn't it the same?

[John Wascavage]

There's almost as much anal sex as a military.

[Matt Koplik]

I'll just say fewer bullets than war, but just as many enemies, if not more.

[John Wascavage]

Oh, honey.

[Matt Koplik]

The psychological warfare that is in the theater scene, my love.

[John Wascavage]

Psychological warfare of just everyday life. Not even in the theater scene. What a week it's been. Sorry.

[Matt Koplik]

I know, absolutely. Of everything. Of lives, of everyone's lives, of the world. It's all. It's all crazy, crazy poopoo pants. But we're talking about. Speaking of psychological warfare and nothing that's been ever crazy, cuckoo pants.

[John Wascavage]

Ever.

[Matt Koplik]

We are covering a play for what is essentially now going to be our final episode for problematic question mark. John, what is it that we are covering today?

[John Wascavage]

We are covering the Boys in the Band.

[Matt Koplik]

The Boys in the Motherfucking Band by Mart Crowley. Now, I always ask people what their history with the show is, if any, and I am going to ask you now, knowing what the answer is, but pretending I don't.

[John Wascavage]

Yeah. No, great. Wonderful. I'm so excited to tell you for the first time about my history with the show.

[Matt Koplik]

Wait, wait, wait. Let me put my. My, my hand to my chin.

[John Wascavage]

Oh, wow.

[Matt Koplik]

And listen. I'm listening. I'm reacting. Acting is reacting.

[John Wascavage]

That's what they say. That is what they say. My history with the show started about two weeks ago when you said, hey, John, wanna come back and do an episode of the podcast? And I was like, yeah, of course, I'd love to. And then you were like, it's about the boys in the band. And I was like, I know nothing about it. I've never seen it. I missed the last revival. You know, I have taste, so I don't watch things produced by Ryan Murphy. I'm kidding. I'm kidding. I don't have taste.

[Matt Koplik]

You don't have taste.

[John Wascavage]

I have zero tast. No, I. Actually, this entity. This title has been on my list for a while to like to watch. I have always kind of been geared more towards watching the original, which is after you asked me to come on and do this episode, I did go and watch the original. The 1970.

[Matt Koplik]

The movie was 1970.

[John Wascavage]

Yeah, yeah. And so I watched, you know, the 1970 movie. I thought about maybe doing like a real quick turnaround and then watching the Ryan Murphy just for like, shits and giggles. But I actually was, like, very satisfied watching that movie. Watching the original movie, which we will talk about more at length, I'm sure, reasons why or. Or why not. But yeah, I have a very kind of fresh outlook on this. This piece, and I'm very glad to be. I'm very glad to be dipping my toes into homosexuality for the first time.

[Matt Koplik]

Just by saying dipping my toes.

[John Wascavage]

I know.

[Matt Koplik]

Dig yourself away.

[John Wascavage]

I had the same thought. I was like, oh, God.

[Matt Koplik]

Oh, no. You can't hide it now, can you?

[John Wascavage]

I know. I mean, and unfortunately, because we aren't. This isn't being video recorded. The gays can't see my feet. So what is the point? What is the truth, Ellen?

[Matt Koplik]

I mean, tr. Honestly. So let me say my journey with boys in the band. Yes, Please, please, can I tell you who introduced me to this entity?

[John Wascavage]

Who introduced you to this entity?

[Matt Koplik]

My father.

[John Wascavage]

Aw.

[Matt Koplik]

My daddy. Ally, Ally, Ally. Peter Koplik.

[John Wascavage]

Boo.

[Matt Koplik]

Boo. He was last seen on the podcast a little over a year ago covering Kimberly Akimbo with me. Took him to see it and then threw him into the studio a day later. And I Said, talk about it on Mike, you bitch. He regrets it now because he was so nervous being on mic and he listened to it. He goes, I was so reserved. I was like, I know you were. But. So Boo Boo tells me about this movie, I want to say when I'm in high school, okay. Because I'm fully out at this point and I know. We love. We love to hear it. And he has always enjoyed this property. He only knew the movie, and I think my grandparents had seen the Off Broadway production. My dad didn't get a chance to see it, but he did see the movie and he really loved the movie. He thought it was very clever. He really loved the dialogue. That was a really big thing with him, is the dialogue. And somehow or other we got a hold of a copy and. Because there was a time when there weren't many DVDs of it out there.

[John Wascavage]

Sure. And explain to me, as a Gen Z er, what is a dvd?

[Matt Koplik]

A DVD is a piece of plastic with a hole punched through it.

[John Wascavage]

Same. Okay, great, continue.

[Matt Koplik]

Fun fact, guys. The hole that John has was punched through him at the Eagle. He didn't have a buffo.

[John Wascavage]

Uh, thanks, o'. Mary.

[Matt Koplik]

Yes, that's how he got his. When they punched his V card, they really punched his V card. But so I think we watched it together. And then there was a documentary that came out on the Boyz in The band around 2011 called Making the Boys. And I rewatched it for this podcast because I do what my homework. And when the documentary came out, more copies of the movie were available. Again, it wasn't like widespread, but it was no longer a drop dead gorgeous situation where it was either one of 10 people at the DVD, you had.

[John Wascavage]

It or you didn't.

[Matt Koplik]

Exactly. So it became more readily available. And then Ryan Murphy decided to produce a Broadway revival of the show. And luckily did not direct, did not do any script consultations, just put up the Capitol or helped put up the Capitol.

[John Wascavage]

You know, wise decisions.

[Matt Koplik]

Exactly. And the only thing about that that's frustrating is the revival then created a remake with that same cast, directed by Joe Mantello, and that is on Netflix, readily available, whereas the original, it's only on Amazon Prime. And that I think is a more new development. It wasn't always on there. So I would prefer it if the original was one that was more readily available.

[John Wascavage]

Yeah, no, I mean, I had to spend $3.99, which I had submitted an invoice to Broadway Breakdown.

[Matt Koplik]

I literally was actually. I was actually going to say I didn't realize you had to rent it, and I was gonna ask you on mic. Do you want me to Venmo you?

[John Wascavage]

Because I'll eat the $3.99 for art.

[Matt Koplik]

Fantastic.

[John Wascavage]

You know, I've eaten worse for art.

[Matt Koplik]

To quote Michael to Donald, you've had worse things in your mouth.

[John Wascavage]

Honey, honey, honey.

[Matt Koplik]

Which I. I was rereading the script last night at intermission of Cabaret, and then. And then today, and that part of the line isn't in the. Isn't in the original script that was added for the movie. And I was like, oh, Martin, you need to put that in the. Yeah, in the published script yesterday.

[John Wascavage]

No, that was one that, like, there were a lot of isms. And again, we'll talk more about this later. But, like, there were a lot of isms in that script where I was like, oh, like, we. We thought we were clever.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah.

[John Wascavage]

Like, oh, we thought we were that girl being like, oh, we're gonna make these kind of jokes for the first time. And it's like, damn, the boys.

[Matt Koplik]

The boys had it at first. Yeah. There's even. I mean, listen, no one really knows the origin of the phrase, but I don't think there's any documented pop culture until boys in the band of the line. Who do you have to fuck to get a drink around here? Oh, so there's. There's confusion as to other boys in the band originated it or if it was just the first to, you know, make it permanent on silver screen, you know.

[John Wascavage]

Yeah, I'm trying to think of the phrase, too, but I can't think of. I know what you're trying to say. Which also, you know, in a rare shocking turn of events, I did a little research, too. I know. I thought, you know, after years and years of coming on here with nothing but sheer pluck and who knows what. I can't say what else due to hippo loss. But I. I found out, and I love this fact, that this, the original, the 1970 movie, is noted for what they believe. The first time cunt was said in a movie.

[Matt Koplik]

That's entirely possible. And it's said a few times.

[John Wascavage]

Yeah. No, but they believe that, like, you know, again, it's kind of the same thing as you were saying, like, they're not exactly sure because maybe. Who knows? Yeah. It's a large genre.

[Matt Koplik]

Exactly. The film is a very large medium. And it's hard to pinpoint because there are also movies that came out that are lost to us that we can't find.

[John Wascavage]

Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

So we'll. We'll See? We'll see. And theater. I don't know if it was the first. I don't think so.

[John Wascavage]

No, I mean. I mean, Sound of Music, Marie. What is it you can't face like that. Obviously, the first time.

[Matt Koplik]

1,000%. I mean, it's also. I'll say it's not the first time fag has been said on stage or on film, because Valley of the Dolls have been out for, like, three years at that point. And you better believe that book. And that movie says fag every four seconds.

[John Wascavage]

I saw that movie for the first time last fall. And, you know, you were the first person that I watched Whatever happened to Baby Jane? With you and Prescott. Suddenly Seymour. And that was one that, like, had been on the bucket list for years. And Valley of the Dolls was. And God, what a gay romp that is.

[Matt Koplik]

It sure is. You should read the book.

[John Wascavage]

I would love the book. I know I would.

[Matt Koplik]

I literally have it right behind me. The thing about the book is it's 400 pages. It reads like it's two. Because it's. It's not well written. It's terribly written, but it is so engaging. It's a 400 page. Us Weekly.

[John Wascavage]

Love it.

[Matt Koplik]

And far sexier and crazier and whatever. But, like, again, things like. I wouldn't take that rumor to heart. You know how bitchy fags can be. Just things like that.

[John Wascavage]

God. I mean, how true.

[Matt Koplik]

Exactly. But that sort of. So, okay. I had. I finally got to see Boyz in the Band on stage because it would only been done in New York in our lifetime once since the original. And I want to say the late 90s. Yes, it was late 90s. It was. Because it was pre Matthew Shepard. Oh, exactly. And it was not terribly well received, the revival, because it. And we'll talk about this.

[John Wascavage]

It was an Off Broadway revival.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah, it was. I think the WPA Theater then transferred to the Lortel. And the idea, like, Ben Bramley opened his review for it, saying it's apparently okay to like the boys in the band again, because by that point it had had a very tumultuous journey, which is part of the reason why we're going to talk about it on this podcast for problematic question mark. And that sort of revival kind of happened and then went away. And then Mark Crowley did write a sequel to it. I think it's called here's to the Boys or something like that.

[John Wascavage]

Yeah, I believe so.

[Matt Koplik]

Not terribly well received.

[John Wascavage]

There's also a porno called the Boys in the Sand. See, I told you I did research. I did some research.

[Matt Koplik]

She did the research.

[John Wascavage]

Those are maybe the only two things I did research on is the reporto. And did they say come first?

[Matt Koplik]

I mean, those are really the headlines, aren't they? Yeah, that's the stuff that Mark Crowley wants to know. Yes. So I did see the revival. I went with my dad and my grandma. My dad was very excited because he finally got to see it on the stage. And the first thing he said when we sat down at the Booth Theater that night was, not a lot of women here.

[John Wascavage]

Drag them. He said. He said, these pretty fags.

[Matt Koplik]

He said, nothing but fags. He goes, oh, And I thought women were allies, and yet they're not here to support. And I said, women can't afford.

[John Wascavage]

It's true.

[Matt Koplik]

We. We beat them to the punch so hard on that one. Which. Which is. Which is fine, because they've beaten us to the punch in so many other queer things. Women got to Heartstopper before any of us did.

[John Wascavage]

God, they did. They really did. Honestly. It's for the girls, for the gals.

[Matt Koplik]

It's Heartstopper's for the gals.

[John Wascavage]

I mean, I love Heartstopper. I'm a gal.

[Matt Koplik]

I love Heartstopper, too. I have the books behind me. But also, those are the girls that have sold out Romeo and Juliet because Kit is in it.

[John Wascavage]

Oh, I do not.

[Matt Koplik]

You cannot convince me that the gays are the ones that are giving that show, like, an $8 million advance right now.

[John Wascavage]

No, they're waiting to find out if he, like, shows butt or something.

[Matt Koplik]

Exactly, exactly.

[John Wascavage]

Because that hasn't started yet.

[Matt Koplik]

No, that starts, I think, in October. We'll see. That's one of those things where I'll talk about that when I do an episode about sort of the upcoming season, but I'm wary just because with Sam Gold, you never know which one you're going to get. Like, is it a glass menagerie or is it an Enemy of the People? You don't know. And I love Kit. I. I am fond of Rachel.

[John Wascavage]

Yeah, no, she's. I am as well. I think she's fantastic.

[Matt Koplik]

She was beautiful in the west side Story movie. It's just I'm one of those things from, like, I am not convinced, but that has nothing to do with Boys in the Band. So I did see that revival and really enjoyed it. My issue with that revival was it was not as acerbic as the movie was. There was a bite to that original company. And yes, also, like. And a real sense of humor about that original company. That the revival didn't totally land. It was a bit. Not precious, but it was a bit, like, weird, important. Exactly.

[John Wascavage]

Yeah. Which is hard to see that.

[Matt Koplik]

And it's hard to escape that when you have Zachary Quinto in your cast.

[John Wascavage]

Well, that's what's gonna ask. I couldn't remember. I remember that some of the people from the Broadway productions did the movie, but it wasn't a complete, like, transfer, was it?

[Matt Koplik]

It was a complete transfer.

[John Wascavage]

It was okay, because that was. Sakuri was Michael.

[Matt Koplik]

Zachary Quinto. He should have been. He should have been Michael.

[John Wascavage]

No, no, because Jim Parsons was Michael.

[Matt Koplik]

Yes. And Zachary Quinto was Harold.

[John Wascavage]

Harold. That makes sense.

[Matt Koplik]

And Matt Bomber was Donald. Andrew Reynolds was Larry. And Tuck Watkins was Hank. That's actually where they met and are now a couple. Robin DeJesus was Emory.

[John Wascavage]

Yes.

[Matt Koplik]

And Michael Washington was. His name was Bernard. And then. Why am I blanking on his name? We follow each other on Instagram. But Alan was played by.

[John Wascavage]

What else has he done?

[Matt Koplik]

The actor playing Alan, he was in Downstate, actually, he replaced the other actor in Downstate playing Sally Murphy's husband. God, why am I blanking on his name? But that whole company. Yeah, they did. They went on to do the Netflix movie, as did the original cast as well.

[John Wascavage]

Yes. Yeah, I did notice that.

[Matt Koplik]

I love that little bit of synergy. Brian Hutchinson. That's his name. And the other major thing they did in the marketing for the revival was that this was an all queer company. Everyone was gay and everyone was out. Whereas the original half the cast was gay and none of them were out.

[John Wascavage]

Right.

[Matt Koplik]

The original cast was. That were the people who were queer in the original cast were. Michael played by. He was the original boy in the Fantastics. That was like his big claim.

[John Wascavage]

Yes, Yes, I did see that as well.

[Matt Koplik]

Kenneth Nelson.

[John Wascavage]

Yes.

[Matt Koplik]

The original Donald, played by Frederick Combs, was also gay.

[John Wascavage]

Yes.

[Matt Koplik]

Larry by Keith Prentice was gay. And then the cow, Harold, played by Leonard Frey, was gay. And then the cowboy played by Robert Letourneau. Unclear if he was gay or straight, but he was a hustler in real life.

[John Wascavage]

Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

And did hustle for a male clientele. And all of those men also died from aids.

[John Wascavage]

I know. That was the other. I wasn't sure. I wasn't sure. I wasn't sure to bring this up right off the bat that I found this in my research. But, like, what a. What a tragedy. Like, literally, I was going through every actor and reading about them, and there is one actor who was straight, the one who played.

[Matt Koplik]

So there are three I think three. So the original. The original Alan Peter White. And we'll talk more about these characters and their roles in the story of this second. The original Hank.

[John Wascavage]

That's what. Hank, that's when I was mostly thinking of. Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

Lawrence Leckinville. And then they're not entirely sure. The original Bernard, played by Ruben Green. But it is Mark Crowley's understanding that he was straight. He was, but he was very private and did not really divulge much about his life to anyone else. And then, in fact, after the movie came out, he kind of disappeared. He's supposedly still alive, but just has had no contact with anyone from the company. They all tried to reach him over the years, and he just never wanted to be found. But that is the understanding. The director, Robert Moore, also was gay and also died of aids.

[John Wascavage]

Yeah, I mean, that's like a whole other play in and of itself. I mean, like, talk about what a pivotal piece of art for gay men and the homosexuals and the fate that.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah.

[John Wascavage]

Why can I word? Why can't I word what happened them?

[Matt Koplik]

What happened them?

[John Wascavage]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

So do we want to do a quick rundown of the plot for listeners, for the uncultured Fox who don't know, or should we start with how this play came to be and then get into the plot, sort of deep dive into that?

[John Wascavage]

Let's do that one. I know I said, sure, but I have no solid convictions, but I like giving a background. Yeah. Plus then I get to sit here and look at you. Spur off. Spur off facts. Spurm off facts.

[Matt Koplik]

Spurm off. Yeah, I sperm off all my facts.

[John Wascavage]

That's it.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah. Fact.

[John Wascavage]

You spurt. Yeah, you're spurting. Spurt, Spurt, Matt. Spurt, Spurt, I say.

[Matt Koplik]

Are you calling me a spurter, John? You can't air my dirty laundry out like this. Calling me a spurter.

[John Wascavage]

Sorry about it.

[Matt Koplik]

Jesus. Yeah, no, I was. Yeah. So the play is written by Mark Crowley, who got his start as a gopher on film sets. He wanted to be. I think he first wanted to be an actor, then decided he was going to be a writer, but he eventually moved out to la and he was Ilya Kazan's assistant on Splendor in the Grass, where he met Natalie Wood. Yes, yes, yes, yes. Became very close with her, became her assistant after that movie on west side Story and for a few more years. And through her he met a lot of people, Met agents, got represented. He wrote a film that was specifically for Natalie Wood where she was going to play twins, and one of them was a lesbian. And the studio bought it and then they decided not to make it because they're like, we can't have Natalie Wood play a lesbian. So he was somebody who was more known for being known in those circles. He wasn't famous, but everyone there knew who he was rather than achieving anything. And he was an alcoholic in his youth and had a lot of Catholic guilt.

[John Wascavage]

He is who Michael is, as they say. Yeah, I mean, it's very clear that Michael is based off of him.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah, absolutely. Well, so what happened was he said the impetus for his. For not his self loathing, because that was always there. But he talked about how in Hollywood, like, there were gay men everywhere. And he said, very few of us were actually out. And the few of us who were out, it was fascinating who, how people approach you. He said, I would, I would argue, you know, all the women, great. He goes, most of the men, fine. He goes, every now and then there'd be somebody. And it was surprising and it was never violent. It was just very condescending. And he said he was at a dinner once for some, like, award show, and he was with Natalie and, you know, a bunch of other Oscar winners. And Richard Harris was there, he who did the movie version of Camelot. And Richard Harris is just glaring at him across the table. And Bart's like, have I offended you? Like, why are you being so nasty to me? Richard Harris goes, you're not a serious person.

[John Wascavage]

Yeah, I love that. I would love that if that's how people ask me if I was gay. Are you a serious person?

[Matt Koplik]

Are you a serious person?

[John Wascavage]

No, I'm quite silly. Yes, well, quite, quite silly.

[Matt Koplik]

Well, see, I would say to them, I'm very silly. I'm also a faggot. Like, what do you want to know, Richard? Because the truth is, I am silly.

[John Wascavage]

Listen. Listen to me say the word serious.

[Matt Koplik]

Serious.

[John Wascavage]

Serious.

[Matt Koplik]

Seriously. Have you seen that clip with Martin Short as Jiminique Lake talking to Bill Hader?

[John Wascavage]

I've watched the whole interview because, I mean, two of my favorite people in the world.

[Matt Koplik]

So he's like, why is there an S in the word list? That seems cruel. Seems cruel.

[John Wascavage]

Bill Hader could not keep it together. Like, I love when Bill Hader just. I don't know if you watched the John Mulaney, of course, Netflix show, his talk show.

[Matt Koplik]

But I love everybody isn't everyone is in LA or something.

[John Wascavage]

Yeah, yeah. I love when Bill Hader just can't keep it together. He just giggles like a school girl the whole time. He's silly.

[Matt Koplik]

He's a very, he's not a serious person, but he's not gay.

[John Wascavage]

I know, I know.

[Matt Koplik]

So Natalie Wood.

[John Wascavage]

Yes.

[Matt Koplik]

Offers Mark Crowley, her, one of her dearest friends. Six months of free therapy. And this is the mid-60s. So therapy is slowly becoming like no.

[John Wascavage]

Longer taboo, but it's still pretty stigmatized.

[Matt Koplik]

Exactly. It's sort of like, what do you mean? I need therapy. But, but everyone's like pushing for like, no, no, no, no, like, this is a good thing, this is a good thing.

[John Wascavage]

Right.

[Matt Koplik]

And Mart very much was anti ed and went off drinking. But that same day he wrote in his journal that he regrets turning it down. And a couple months later he couldn't bring himself, maybe it might have been a year or two later, he couldn't bring himself to actually ask her for it again. But he showed her the journal entry from that day and had her read it. And she was like, absolutely, I will pay for like the, for your therapy. Natalie would.

[John Wascavage]

She couldn't. She did. She.

[Matt Koplik]

Natalie would. And she did. But so she, she paid for his therapy, which gave him a lot of insight into himself and understanding a lot of his self loathing and how a lot of homosexuals at that time, even the ones who were out, had a lot of inner homophobia. Many homosexuals that I still do. And from there it gave him some perspective. The other impetus for the play was Stanley Kaufman of the New York Times had written an article around 1966, 67, where he bemoaned. He basically said, There are three prominent playwrights right now who are all in the closet. Didn't name their names, but they were in fact William Ingen, Dennis C. Williams and Edward Albee. And he's like, these playwrights are fantastic, but they do not write about their own experiences. They take their experiences as homosexuals and code them in straight characters. And he goes, I would really like it if they didn't do that and wrote about their own experiences. Now a lot of people in the queer community read that and were angry because they're like, how dare you say we're like putting in messages and we're co opting straight culture? Like, what else can we do, right? Mark Crowley read that. He was like, maybe I should write about what I know. And so he did. He was, it's the crazy thing. He was house sitting for a friend of his, a former movie star who married like a TV mogul. So he was house sitting for her in la. He was like, I was in this giant mansion with a million servants. He goes, I was Subletting my apartment so I could pay. So I had any kind of money. He's like, I basically had $10 to my name, and yet I was living in the lap of luxury. He goes, believe it or not, I was incredibly depressed. And so in order to get out of bed and not like drink myself throughout the day, I wrote this play in five weeks.

[John Wascavage]

Wow. Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

And couldn't get it touched by anybody. There were like so many agents who just refused to send it out because it was really the first overt queer play. And it was still very taboo. I mean, it was still illegal to be gay. I mean, we'll talk about this, but the play came out in 1968. The movie came out in 1970. The year in between was Stonewall.

[John Wascavage]

Yep.

[Matt Koplik]

And that's a very important distinction when we talk about why this play is in the series. Problematic of this stigma on it as well. And ultimately what happened was he got an agent who refused to send it out. But he did say, like, hey, could you reach out to this one producer? It was the guy who produced who's Afraid of Virginia Woolf? I'm gonna look up his name. I think he also was Ahemises.

[John Wascavage]

Well, yeah, that would make a lot of sense. Yeah. In the. In the theater, in the arts.

[Matt Koplik]

Into the theater. No way. Richard Barr was his name. Richard Barr had started out with Orson Welles and mostly worked off Broadway, but had had a couple of hits on Broadway and it was going back to off Broadway because that's where he thought the interesting stuff was. And he, like, had made his money. He wasn't really interested in making a million dollars anymore. He's like, I'm doing fine. I would like to produce stuff that's. That's cool. So he asked the agent, do you know Richard Barr? She's like, I do. She goes, can you at least, like, tell him about that? I have this play. You don't have to send the script if he doesn't want to read it. She goes, fine. She sends it to him. He's like, yeah. Tells him about it. And she's like, okay, he wants to read it. Fine. And Richard Barr loves it. And he has this workshop in New York City called the Playwrights Unit that is also run by Edward Albee and a few other people. And Barr really wants them to do it at the workshop for like a four performance run or whatever it is. Maybe. Maybe it's like a week long run. I can't remember. Edward Albee reads it and hates it. He's like, this is going to Be detrimental to the queer community. And you were just reading the chapter in the Season about that, right?

[John Wascavage]

Yes.

[Matt Koplik]

About what Edward Albee had written around that same time.

[John Wascavage]

Yes.

[Matt Koplik]

What was the name of that playground?

[John Wascavage]

Something in the Garden.

[Matt Koplik]

Something in the Garden.

[John Wascavage]

Or we're all in the Garden. Or it's all in the Garden. That's what it was.

[Matt Koplik]

I have the book here. I could also open and find it.

[John Wascavage]

No, that's too simple. They're all vamp while you're doing it. Okay.

[Matt Koplik]

This is Everything in the Garden.

[John Wascavage]

I was so close.

[Matt Koplik]

You were so close.

[John Wascavage]

Look at me. I know things. You really do. Almost.

[Matt Koplik]

Almost. So that premiered or it was supposed to premiere in November of 1967. Remind me in the book, did it get to Broadway? Everything in the Garden.

[John Wascavage]

This I don't remember. I can only retain so much information.

[Matt Koplik]

But I believe it's. It's actually, I can't recall. I should have read it right before we recorded. But I was reading the end of the chapter because in William Goldman's the Season, he has a section called Homosexuals or Homosexuality. Homosexuals.

[John Wascavage]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

And not also a chapter called Women with Children. Homosexuals. Women with Children. But it's about homosexuals being very prominent in the theater. And I don't know if he actually outs Edward Albee, but he doesn't know.

[John Wascavage]

But I mean, he very much pinpoints those exact three, and it's kind of.

[Matt Koplik]

Like they're all bad.

[John Wascavage]

Like, he is not outing of them, but he's literally like, reading them to Felt. He's like, they're all bachelors. They all write about straight things. But I'm not buying it.

[Matt Koplik]

He's like, I don't buy that they actually know about straight life.

[John Wascavage]

Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

And in fact, I would argue all of Tennessee Williams plays are an indictment of heteronormativity.

[John Wascavage]

Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

And I mean, some far more successful than others. But it's why, like, I never understood how people can look at Streetcar Named Desire and go, oh, my God, that play is so romantic. I'm like, that play can be hot for sure. But it's telling you how you, as straight people, are fucking messes.

[John Wascavage]

Right.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah. Need to get your shit together. And like how Cat on the Hudson Roof is like, so marriage is a sham.

[John Wascavage]

Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

And babies. And like, anyone who has a baby is trying to fix something in their marriage, and you're never gonna fix it.

[John Wascavage]

Yeah. No. The straights do not come out very, very unscathed in the. In the Williams play.

[Matt Koplik]

They sure don't. But they tend to hire very pretty People to do it. So no one really.

[John Wascavage]

That's true.

[Matt Koplik]

Realizes that they go, but Paul Newman's so handsome.

[John Wascavage]

But Marlon Brando. Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

Oh, Elizabeth Taylor with those violet eyes and them boobs.

[John Wascavage]

Oh, my gosh. And the diamond.

[Matt Koplik]

Oh, my gosh.

[John Wascavage]

These have always brought me luck.

[Matt Koplik]

Gladys, you taped your shoes over it. You think they'd have the parking lot of America to go to the Mall of America?

[John Wascavage]

More smartest.

[Matt Koplik]

Honestly, Kirstie Alley not playing Blanche dubois at one point. That was a missed opportunity.

[John Wascavage]

Oh, my God. But. But a street cranium Desire with the characters specifically from Drop Dead Gorgeous.

[Matt Koplik]

Absolutely. Absolutely.

[John Wascavage]

I've always depended on the kindness of strangers.

[Matt Koplik]

And to quote Hannah Pitt, well, that's a stupid thing to do. It's God. If you could blend, Drop that gorgeous street cry, Name of Desire and Angels in America together, I think you'd have the next Hamilton.

[John Wascavage]

Yeah, I agree.

[Matt Koplik]

This is queerness right here. We're not serious people.

[John Wascavage]

Silly. Just silly gooses.

[Matt Koplik]

Silly, silly gooses. But so Mart is wrote this play, sends it to Barr. Barr has Albie read it. And I think part of Alby's resentment was he did not have the bravery to write about people. And a lot of. There are so many reasons why people were afraid to have anything written about homosexuals. It was still taboo. Who knew how anyone would respond to it? And, like, if something's gonna be the first gay play, shouldn't it be something that makes everyone look great and super euphoric? And Marr was sort of like, well, that's not the truth. Because he wrote it from a place of anger, because he was looking around the world and seeing how people were being treated of all the raids and the discrimination. And he's. And he's like, even at our most joyous, it's when we have to retreat into ourselves and, like, be with our chosen family. And that's something that I think is actually very evident in the play movie of boys in the band.

[John Wascavage]

100%.

[Matt Koplik]

There's a definitive moment when the joy ends with everyone, or as I said, with the main character, which then permeates to everyone.

[John Wascavage]

Yes.

[Matt Koplik]

For me, it's when Alan shows up. That's when, like, the actual joy. Joy of the party ends. Because you see. Even in the bitchiness, you see, like, love and friendship and kinship. And then Alan shows up and it's like, everything goes to fucking pot.

[John Wascavage]

Right?

[Matt Koplik]

But that they felt it was still compelling and they had a hard time casting it. No one was willing to stick their necks out and, you know, be perceived as gay. But somehow they were able to get a cast together, a director together. They do it at the Workshop, the playwrights unit. And they got a positive review in the Times from their first performance and from the rest of the week they were like totally sold out. Standing room only. It was very crazy how it happened because, like, it doesn't usually happen that way. And they moved to Off Broadway at what was called Theater 4, I believe, in the in on 55th Street. They moved there within like two months and rave reviews. And you can read about it in the season as well. William Goldman is very positive on it.

[John Wascavage]

Yeah, yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

And just for the sheer audacity that it's out in the open, right?

[John Wascavage]

Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

And it's the same thing Clive Barnes says in his review. He's like. He's like, listen, is the play perfect? No, it's very. This is very clearly Mr. Crowley's first play. He's like, yes. He's like, you see the connections to who's Afraid of Virginia Woolf? Is like. There's times when exposition is done kind of clunkily and you know, you know, it might be a little over overlong and some of the dialogue can get forced from time to time. He goes, but it's brilliantly acted because what. What it does accomplish is so great, you forgive the flaws. And the fact that it exists at all is incredible. And that is sort of what launched it and everyone's careers from there. But it was a very weird, double edged sword. And we could talk about that more as we talk about the legacy of this play. But that's how we get here. We get to theater four by April of 1968. The other thing about why this play took off the way it did, and I would love for you to read the season. It's a phenomenal book.

[John Wascavage]

It was very interesting even just reading that chapter.

[Matt Koplik]

And that was also like a very dark season for Broadway. And in some ways it was similar for me of this past Broadway season, at least when it comes to musicals, because William Goldman's like, so none of the musicals this year are any good. Yeah, yeah. Because it was like the year of, I think Hallelujah Baby and How Now. Jarrett Jones.

[John Wascavage]

Oh, sure, those hits, exactly.

[Matt Koplik]

Well, because they're all bombing.

[John Wascavage]

That's what I'm assuming that musical sounds like. I've never listened.

[Matt Koplik]

There's one song from it I know because of the Ed Sullivan performance, and it's the Will everyone here kindly step to the rear and let a leader lead the way. That's all I know.

[John Wascavage]

I've never heard of. Never heard any of those words in my life.

[Matt Koplik]

And you will never hear them again. I'm done with it forever. But he talks about how, like, this season's kind of blowing. The musicals suck. We have a couple of good American plays, but nobody's seeing them. The British imports are the only things that people are seeing because they want to. Because they want to seem evolved. He goes, the only playwright right now who's selling is Neil Simon, who's really good, but, like, is a little too for the masses for my taste.

[John Wascavage]

Yeah, sitcom.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah, exactly. And Plaza Suite had just come out. And Goldman's like, the fascinating thing is, like, the first act of Plaza Suite is, in my opinion, the most ambitious Simon has been as a playwright to date. And that's the act that no one likes, because it's when he gets, like, super comical for the next few that everyone's like, yay, this is what we came for. And so he's like, I really, really hope that Simon, you know, leans into the first act for the rest of his career. And the iron. And what's fascinating is he did because the Brighton beach memoirs, Lost in Yonkers, like, that's a more comedic, dramatic blend. And the other thing he talks about is directors who put, like, imprints on shows that don't need it. So he talks about how Mike Nichols comes back from Hollywood to do, in Goldman's opinion, a terrible Little Foxes, because Nichols has a vision that has nothing to do with the text.

[John Wascavage]

Oh, boy.

[Matt Koplik]

And I was like, oh, nothing changes. Yep. And then he's like. And then he also talks about how Off Broadway is really where it's all at, because that's where that's Hair has just opened Off Broadway. And I think it's might be moving to Broadway at that point. I don't know if it's officially moved yet or if it's about to move. And he's, like, bemoaning that it's moving because he's like, oh, it's so good for Off Broadway. Why ruin it for Broadway? And he talks about Boys in the Band as well. He goes, this is, for my money, the mo. The most interesting play of the season. And it's off Broadway, and it's a big hit. And I think part of the reason it was big hit was a. The novelty of an openly queer play. But also, it was so different from anything else going on that year, and people were starved for something new, which when something truly new and compelling comes along, no matter its bumps, Right. We'll go to look at Stereophonic.

[John Wascavage]

Literally what I was thinking.

[Matt Koplik]

Absolutely.

[John Wascavage]

Literally what I was thinking.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Or I don't know. It's hard to talk about musicals this season because, again, I think so many of them have been duds. But even the ones that, for me, do land in some way like the Outsiders. The Outsiders has its bumps, but it has moments that are just so unique to it. Like the record.

[John Wascavage]

Yeah. I mean. Yeah. The sound design. A lot of the directorial choices in that, I was like, I'm excited by some of these. Which is not across the board. Was not across the board.

[Matt Koplik]

Exactly. Absolutely. And I. I went into the Outsiders excited because I had seen Jonah a few weeks prior at Roundabout, which Donya Taymor had directed.

[John Wascavage]

Wait, what was Jonah? Jesse.

[Matt Koplik]

That was at the Laura Pels.

[John Wascavage]

No, I didn't. I didn't see Jonah.

[Matt Koplik]

It was. It was quite good and I heard it was good. Yeah. And Danya did a really amazing job and that was my introduction to her. So I wanted the Outsiders being like, oh, I'm interested to see what she do.

[John Wascavage]

Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

And I thought she did beautiful work.

[John Wascavage]

Me too. Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

But, you know, that's what people say. Oh. Audiences want what they know. They want what's familiar. And there is truth to that. But some. But those things only last for so long.

[John Wascavage]

Correct.

[Matt Koplik]

They tend to do well at the beginning and then they peter out. Look at Back to the Future. Well, I honestly, I think we're going to see that with Gatsby come fall of, like, their grosses taking a major dip. Because now that the novelty of seeing the new thing that's familiar is over, it's like, well, I don't need to go back. But when something is truly fresh and compelling, people really go for it. And that's what happened here.

[John Wascavage]

Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

And so that leads us to how we got here. Now, to quote Ms. Lindsay Ellis, let's take a look at what we got. Before we do that, Jen, we need to take a quick break. Billy, I beg to differ with you.

[John Wascavage]

How do you mean?

[Matt Koplik]

You're the top.

[John Wascavage]

Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

You're an arrow collar. You're the top. You're a Coolidge dollar. You're the nimble tread of the feet of Fred. And we're back.

[John Wascavage]

Yes.

[Matt Koplik]

So, Jen.

[John Wascavage]

Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

For the uncultured fucks.

[John Wascavage]

Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

What is the Boys in the Band about?

[John Wascavage]

The Boys in the Band is about a group of teens who want to win their Battle of the Bands and their high school. For their high school so that they can get the girl.

[Matt Koplik]

Speaking of Ryan Murphy. It's season four of Glee.

[John Wascavage]

Oh, my gosh. No. Literally, no. So the Boys and the Band is a exploration of homosexuality in the seventies. It is about. I would say it kind of more or less follows Michael, who is the Mart Crowley character.

[Matt Koplik]

Yes.

[John Wascavage]

He is a recently sober gay man living in New York City.

[Matt Koplik]

Yes, yes, yes.

[John Wascavage]

In the 60s. And he is throwing a birthday party for his friend. And from what I got from the movie, maybe ex lover. Were they lovers?

[Matt Koplik]

Oh, Harold.

[John Wascavage]

Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

They never say. There is. When Harold receives Michael's present.

[John Wascavage]

Yes.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah. There's a vibe that there's history there.

[John Wascavage]

Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

But we don't. We never. It's never said.

[John Wascavage]

And it's also so hard to know with gay men because we could fuck our friends and it means nothing. That's not history. That's Tuesday.

[Matt Koplik]

Exactly.

[John Wascavage]

But, like, you know, it's. So he is throwing a birthday party for his friend Harold and. Yeah. I mean, how much do you want me to go into the synopsis of it?

[Matt Koplik]

Okay, well, so let's start with who's coming to this party?

[John Wascavage]

Who's coming to dinner? Guess who's coming to dinner?

[Matt Koplik]

Guess who's coming to dinner. We have Donald.

[John Wascavage]

Yes.

[Matt Koplik]

Who is Donald?

[John Wascavage]

Donald is definitely Michael's ex. They have history together.

[Matt Koplik]

They do.

[John Wascavage]

And so Donald, if I'm remembering correctly, he is kind of like a janitor. Slash, like, he's kind of like in between jobs. And so he, when the beginning of the play, shows up early to Michael's because he was supposed to meet with a psychiatrist, which ties back into something you've mentioned, at least in the movie. It was not explicitly stated why he's seeing a psychiatrist other than, like, anxiety and the ick. But I also got from it. It was kind of like, not exactly that he wanted to not be gay anymore, but I got a little bit of that.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah, there's a bit. So Marge said in an interview that it's never explicitly stated, but he tried to put hints in the script that Donald and Michael are both kind of trying to go to therapy to talk themselves out of being gay. They don't, because they're not willing to do conversion therapy.

[John Wascavage]

Right.

[Matt Koplik]

But they think that if they break down their neurosis, the reason why, the reason what made them gay, they can get out of it. Yeah, that is. That is ultimately what Mart is implying, at least in those. In that first 10 pages of the script. Because there's also. They both have long monologues. Donald is pretty much kept in the movie, and only one of Michael's is kept. But they. Because Michael has a monologue that's in the play that's not in the movie, where he talks about, like, his parents and, like, what fucked him up with them. And so he and Donald both. Both are like, our mothers loved us too much and basically traumatized us by keeping us close to them. And that is why we're gay and why we're failures. And that's. So that's where they're at.

[John Wascavage]

Sure. Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

And then they also say. And the play also does add a bit more exposition about, like, what everyone does, because the movie. Some things are said.

[John Wascavage]

Yeah. I think the only. The reason why I'm assuming that Donald was some kind of, like, janitor or something is because I don't remember who. If it was Michael, if it was Harold, I think it was Michael calls him a chair. A chairwoman or a charwoman.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah.

[John Wascavage]

And I had to look up what a char. Char man was. And Google was like, do you mean Charmin the Bear? And I was like, no. I was like, I don't.

[Matt Koplik]

That's for later.

[John Wascavage]

Yeah. I was like, don't. Don't reveal my kinks too soon, Google.

[Matt Koplik]

No, he does. He. I believe it's unclear if he. Because he's living in the Hamptons.

[John Wascavage]

Yes. Yeah. He's not. He left new.

[Matt Koplik]

He did. He's living above a garage. He's renting a room above a garage or he's living in the room above the garage. I don't know if it's. He's living with his parents out there or if he's just renting this room from a. From a family out there. And then, you know, because he's living cheaply, he's able to live off of $45 a week.

[John Wascavage]

Right? Yeah. And so he. But yeah. Gordon to Google Search. Charman is a kind of, like, janitor, like. Yeah. And so Donald is at the party. He is the first to arrive. He arrives early. And also, I do want to take a little bit of a side note. There were so many moments where also the term the ick as, like, described as, like, anxiety. And I was like, man, I use that word all the time. And my therapist used that word all the time. And I'm like, is that where that comes from? The ick?

[Matt Koplik]

I don't know if it's where it comes from, but at the very least, it shows you that it's been around since the 60s.

[John Wascavage]

Yeah. Which, like, who knew?

[Matt Koplik]

Who knew?

[John Wascavage]

Yeah. So Donald's there, and then I think the first to arrive Is Emery.

[Matt Koplik]

Emery with Hank and Larry?

[John Wascavage]

Yeah. Yes. So Emery is a interior designer, I believe. Emerie is kind of your.

[Matt Koplik]

She's your gal.

[John Wascavage]

You know, she's the one quoting Valley of the Dolls. She's the one who is doing full Bette Davis in the corner when no one's watching. It's just for her.

[Matt Koplik]

Emerie is the seed that is planted. That grows, Jack. That grows Chris Colbert.

[John Wascavage]

Oh, my gosh. Totally. She. She's. She's. She's our gal. She's.

[Matt Koplik]

She. She births Albert in the birdcage. Like, that is.

[John Wascavage]

I mean. I mean, even just like for this time, the. The. The discussions about pronouns and pronoun usage. I mean, obviously it's in the context of the time it was written, and it's very different in the context of what pronouns now mean. But I did find a very interesting. Emery's choice of. I mean, everything was she, you know, oh, Donald, she's this. Michael, she's that.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah, it's very. When Trixie talks about. Trixie Mattel talks about men, says, oh, my brother, she's this.

[John Wascavage]

Yeah, she's a massive.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah. And the thing is, it's. I do think something that's very insightful about the play is who does the pronouns with who. So, like Emery and Bernard. And we'll get to Bernard in a second. That's something that they share is doing the she. Harold does the she. Michael sometimes does it. But we'll get to that in a second.

[John Wascavage]

Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

Because the idea is that most of the people coming tonight are there for Harold because they're his friends.

[John Wascavage]

Right.

[Matt Koplik]

They like. They all. Everyone sort of puts up with Michael. Everyone likes Harold.

[John Wascavage]

Right.

[Matt Koplik]

But yeah. So Emery is the jack of the group. And then Larry and Hank.

[John Wascavage]

Hank, if I'm correct, is the recently or about to be divorced. He is, I believe, at least something that I read. I don't know if it's explicitly stated in the play because it wasn't in the movie, but he is described as being bisexual. I don't know if at this time that was how they described him. Or again, that's kind of like the lens that we are now viewing him through, because we don't believe in bi erasure anymore. Yes. But he had been married. He has two kids, but he is now separated, at least for the last two years, from his wife. And he is living with Larry, his lover. They are definitely a bit on the fritz. We learn that Larry does not believe in monogamy. But Hank, who has very much, in many different ways bought into the kind of heteronormative aspect of what a relationship is. Very much wants monogamy, is hell bent on them being monogamous. So they are a bit. There's a lot of tension between these two characters, but Hank is described by different characters, or even Alan, who we'll get to later, but as being the most passable. Like, Hank is the guy that you could talk sports with and.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah.

[John Wascavage]

You know, and he still wears his wedding ring.

[Matt Koplik]

He does. He does, yeah. Hank. And there's a lot of stuff tied to that, for sure. And I was gonna say.

[John Wascavage]

Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

The way that. I think the way that Michael describes Hank is that Hank goes both ways, but has a preference for one.

[John Wascavage]

Yes, yes, yes, they do say that. Yes, they do say that in the movie, too. I remember that now.

[Matt Koplik]

And listen, a lot of characters in this play have expressed their history with women as well. Some of it confusion, some of it, you know, maybe being more sexually fluid than they realize, and some of it being just trying to pass for as long as they could. Michael has been with women in the past, but that's because he just desperately wanted to be straight. Right. And Hank has. I think Donald even has. Is unclear. But yeah. So that's Hank, Larry, Emery, Donald and Michael. Well, we've said it's Harold's birthday, but we haven't really discussed who Harold is yet. We'll get to him. Next is Bernard.

[John Wascavage]

Yes, Bernard. Bernard is. I believe in. If I'm remembering. In the play, he's a librarian, but in. In the movie, he was like a book. He works in a bookstore.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah. In the play, he's a librarian. In the movie, he works at Doubleday, which is a bookstore. And I. You want to know why I know that?

[John Wascavage]

Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

Get ready for some silliness.

[John Wascavage]

Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

There's a wonderful film from around 2004 starring Renee Zellweger, my Re. Re. And Ewan McGregor called down with Love.

[John Wascavage]

Yes.

[Matt Koplik]

Down with Louvre. And Riri writes a book called down with Louvre. And Sarah Paulson is her publisher or her editor, I should say. And the first act of the movie is just getting anyone to take riri seriously about this book, which I can't.

[John Wascavage]

Take riri seriously, as you call her riri.

[Matt Koplik]

I call her Riri all the time.

[John Wascavage]

Riri Zelzel.

[Matt Koplik]

Riri Zelzel. She was recently dragged on the Blank Check podcast when David Sims was like, well, it's like, I have problems with certain things. Like when people. When Renee Zellweger is bad at singing in Chicago and everyone goes, well, she's supposed to be. The character is not a good singer. I'm like, I don't buy that. And I go, I'm sorry, David. Listen to Gwen Verdon, then Ann Reinking, and then tell me that Renee Zellweger is the worst singer of the three of them.

[John Wascavage]

Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

I'm like, kindly sit on a fucking cactus.

[John Wascavage]

Yeah, no, I don't think that's legit at all.

[Matt Koplik]

No, she's. She's. She's quite good. She'll never. I always thought that she'll never do Evita, but also, it's like, Roxy is not Evita. She isn't. But it's also me being like, I don't know. I can't explain Poli sci to you. Does that make me an idiot? I am an idiot, but not because I don't know poli sci.

[John Wascavage]

You know, Poli sci. She does a show at Hardware Bar on Tuesday nights, 11 o'. Clock. The Poli Sci Show. Shut up. We. This is. That's such a good dragon name. Poly Sy. That's a really good dragon. Wait, wait, wait.

[Matt Koplik]

I need to tell you another one I came up with the other day. I was with someone. I was with a friend having dinner, and he came up with a drag name because he was trying to do something off of Hannah Montana, but he wants to sort of be like a drag king in a way. So his name would be Finnegan, Michigan.

[John Wascavage]

I love that.

[Matt Koplik]

It's great. And then he goes, I don't know, like, what's another version of that where it's like a name and a state? And I go, virginia. Virginia.

[John Wascavage]

Ooh, I like that, too.

[Matt Koplik]

You've heard of Hannah Montana? Welcome to the stage of Virginia Virginia.

[John Wascavage]

I love nonsensical drag names. We're gonna tangent for a second, everyone. I'm so sorry.

[Matt Koplik]

It's the podcast.

[John Wascavage]

I know. We'll come back. One of my really good friends, he was reading to me through his list recently of the new drag names that he came up with. And my favorite I lost my shit over it was a drag queen named Too Busy. And I was like, what? And he was like, yeah, just too busy. Like, t o o busy. And I was like, that's so stupid. But it does oddly kind of work in the world of, like, now that we have Plain Jane, where, like, the first name is not actually a name, the name is the second name. But Busy actually is a name because of Busy Phillips. And so Too Busy. But then I came up with the idea of if we ever did a drag duo together, he would be. Or she would be too busy and I would be her sister. Too tired. So. Too busy and too tired.

[Matt Koplik]

Too tired. Yeah. Mine would be what's her name?

[John Wascavage]

Oh, I love that.

[Matt Koplik]

What's her name?

[John Wascavage]

And then Priyanka would just show up out of anywhere.

[Matt Koplik]

It's like, oh, whose show is it tonight? What's her name?

[John Wascavage]

You are getting actively sued at this exact moment for trademark infringement with Priyanka.

[Matt Koplik]

1000%. But it's not her trademarked thing.

[John Wascavage]

It could be.

[Matt Koplik]

It could be. I'm gonna beat her to the pooch.

[John Wascavage]

Is that how they say punch in Canada?

[Matt Koplik]

I am assuming.

[John Wascavage]

I'm all about donkey pooching. All aboot donkey pooching.

[Matt Koplik]

I'm a la boot that donkey pooching. Hey, baby. Hey. Hey. How did we even get here?

[John Wascavage]

Yeah, I know. It's just like in. Oh, Bernard. Double.

[Matt Koplik]

You know how we got here? Double day. So.

[John Wascavage]

Yes. And Poli sucks.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah. So Riri. Riri had the. Riri had the book down with Love. And finally she gets her book published, like to. And. But she realizes that there's only one copy in the bookstore. Sarah Paulson's like, it's your book on sale. And Renee goes, one. All that work in just one. If someone buys it, then there will be none. It'll be like it never existed. And Sarah Paulson goes, no, no, no. Doubleday also has one. And so double day. So that's how I know. I always thought that that was a made up thing. And then when watching the movie and you realize that Bernard works at Doubleday, I was like, oh, it's a real bookstore.

[John Wascavage]

It's almost like how I've heard folklore about how there was this place called, like the Virgin Music Store in Times Square. Heard folklore.

[Matt Koplik]

If you. If you go to Marie's Crisis, gays of old will tell you stories of dour records.

[John Wascavage]

And what was the sheet music play?

[Matt Koplik]

Colony.

[John Wascavage]

Colony.

[Matt Koplik]

The overpriced sheet music place.

[John Wascavage]

God. But when I was such a little gay coming to New York to see Les Mis with my family, I would go to Colony and I'd be like, if I don't get this Thoroughly Modern Millie sheet music, I will perish.

[Matt Koplik]

I believe I did. I will wither away.

[John Wascavage]

I will wither away and die if I don't get these glossy photos of Sutton Foster and Gavin Creel.

[Matt Koplik]

Gavin Creel with that. With that gelled hair and part. Yeah.

[John Wascavage]

God, I loved it.

[Matt Koplik]

I did too. He was very much a gay awakening for me. But so, yes, Bernard. Bernard, librarian or works a Doubleday. He is also officially the only person of color in the company, unless we're talking about the revival when we have Robert de Jesus, which is lovely.

[John Wascavage]

But it is important that specified in the script.

[Matt Koplik]

Yes, it is specified and that is very important. And then fun fact. They talked about this before. Whenever. When they do Boys in the Band in Japan, they have the actor playing Bernard, someone who is Korean origin.

[John Wascavage]

Oh, yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

Interesting, because I guess it's a. It's a comparable situation over there.

[John Wascavage]

Oh, wow. Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

Isn't that fun?

[John Wascavage]

Yeah. There's something new every day.

[Matt Koplik]

Exactly. Bernard is definitely closer to Emery than anyone else. They. They have a kinship and I think part of that is the. Like, Bernard is the official minority of the minorities in that group.

[John Wascavage]

Yeah. And I will say in the movie it is like very blatant that he is the less. The least fleeced out.

[Matt Koplik]

The least fleeced out.

[John Wascavage]

The least fleeced out. The least fleshed out of any of the characters. I don't know if that's true in the play. It's true.

[Matt Koplik]

He has. It's because I think that he and Emery have very similar narratives of quote unquote being fleshed out of. We get who they are in the first half just in terms of their personality.

[John Wascavage]

Yeah. Just that snapshot real quick.

[Matt Koplik]

Exactly. And then we get some of their backstory in the second half with the phone calls. Yes. Which we'll get to. But it is a very similar narrative. I think the difference is that we learn more about Emerie's day to day Bernard. It's not that Bernard exists to quit back at Emery. It's just that that's always sort of their dynamic is Emery will say something and then Bernard will say something quippy towards Emery, which then Emery will say something quippy back. The interesting thing about Bernard's existence, and it's fascinating that Mart clocks this. Is he. And. And I read this in the Times review with Clive Barnes as well of their humor with each other is very tricky.

[John Wascavage]

Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

And. And. And this something Barnes says of like Barnes in his review, who is a British man, by the way, and. And ornery and didn't have the best of taste half the time. So when he loves something that is on the pulse, you're always like, say what now? Like, very famously did not like Company or Follies. But. But he talks about how there's a sense of humor in Boys in the Band that isn't going to be for everyone. He goes, listen, New Yorkers understand that there are some plays that are like very much New Yorker humor, which he then is like, slash Jewish humor. Like just. I think outwardly is like Jew humor. And I was like, oh, we're just saying that.

[John Wascavage]

Okay.

[Matt Koplik]

But then he also talks about. He goes, there's queer humor. And he goes, listen, I enjoyed this play very much. I am sure there are things about this play I cannot connect with in the same way that a queer friend of mine does can. He goes, but I can tell you I found this a good play that was compelling and made me see things about the queer experience that I didn't know before. He said, but there's a sense of humor about it that's going to turn a lot of people off. And that is, I think, ultimately the Emory Bernard stuff.

[John Wascavage]

Sure.

[Matt Koplik]

Which is. So how would you describe their humor with each other, John Bernard and Emery?

[John Wascavage]

I would describe it honestly. A lot of the ways that we as gay people now interact with each other. Like, again, kind of going back to the kind of like, pronoun, kind of the, the. The. If you're catty, it's because I love you. Like that. That kind of. Which, I mean, again, I feel like I'm missing a bit from the play about their kind of relationship, because I will say there was a good amount of back and forth, but I also feel that there was a lot of, at least in the movie, them taking care of each. They were. And so, yeah, I don't know if I have exactly the right words of what you're looking for or.

[Matt Koplik]

I'm not looking for anything. I want your. You want your take, baby?

[John Wascavage]

Well, no, but I guess my take is that in the movie, I did feel like the thing that stood out to me the most was that the way that they talk to each other felt, for lack of a better term, kind of like modern day drag race, you know, like, not this, because this wasn't a thing yet, but like their kind of relationship was kind of like that. You know, you walk in, if you're a gay man, you walk into a room and you go like, hi. And someone goes, hi. Back to you. Like, it was kind of like that. Yeah. But I also think because of that, there's a lot of. I'm trying to remember about one specific exchange that was very racially charged. And I can't remember Emory, if that's Michael.

[Matt Koplik]

It's both Michael. And it's important because it's just because it's brought up with Michael. And when things get very dark.

[John Wascavage]

Okay.

[Matt Koplik]

Because Bernard talks about it, which.

[John Wascavage]

Yes.

[Matt Koplik]

Maybe not like, as in depth to say you know, Jeremy O. Harris does a slave play. Well, sure, but it's. I thought it was very fascinating that mart for 1968, as a white gay man, could clock it and. And give it a moment to be said, which is. So Emory and Bernard, sort of their main sticking points with each other is Bernard is black and Emory is very effeminate, which makes them sort of the lowest members of the queer poll, because Emory is not white, which is not super desirable in the New York queer community. And, you know, every. Every minority, every repressed demographic has their own caste system that they sort of just self impose in the same way that prisons do, where it's like, yes, I may be in prison with you, but like, I'm of a higher ranking. So masculinity is often really prioritized looks.

[John Wascavage]

Or money or being passable. Passing.

[Matt Koplik]

Exactly. And Emery being the most effeminate one of the group, definitely makes him the butt of a lot of jokes. And so Bernard always sticks it to Emery on the being effeminate. And then Bernard will. Emory will always come back with a racially charged one. So the one that I remember that's really big is Bernard says something about, oh, it. It's Hank saying something and then Emory being like, oh, I wouldn't live with you anyway, because, oh, he's like, larry, how could you live with Hank? He's such a brute. And then Bernard says, emory, you would live. You would move in with Hank in a minute if he asked you in 58 seconds, everyone. And he goes, everyone knows that you're sensitive to which Emery says, why don't you have a piece of watermelon and hush up.

[John Wascavage]

I do remember that line. I do remember that line.

[Matt Koplik]

But they don't say it to each other with like, I hate you. It's right. It is this. They alone have that safety net of, like, we can say this to each other. No one else can. Because then Michael comes in in the second half when things get very nasty, and we'll talk about the nasty stuff in a minute of why this gets nasty. But when he says something to Bernard with an acidic tongue, Bernard lashes out and he's like, oh, but it's okay with Emory does it? And Bernard's like, no, it's not okay when he does it, but I let him do it because I get to do it to him too, because that's different. And, you know, it's.

[John Wascavage]

Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

And.

[John Wascavage]

Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

So it's a very. It's a very fascinating dynamic that those two have.

[John Wascavage]

Yeah, for sure. Yeah. Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

But so after Bernard. Oh, then we have Alan. I think that's when Alan officially shows up. Right before the Cowboys.

[John Wascavage]

Yeah, yeah. Because it's. Yeah, yeah. It's before the. Before the. Well, yes. I think in the movie, maybe the Cowboys shows up before Alan. I'm trying to remember. There's definitely no.

[Matt Koplik]

Because the Cowboy isn't there when they're dancing. And that's when Alan.

[John Wascavage]

That's what I was trying to think. I was like, I know. They're dancing out in the patio. All right. Yeah. So the next is Alan. Yes. Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

Who is Alan?

[John Wascavage]

Alan is Michael's college friend, I believe. Roommate. I believe. It was, like, him, their friend. Justin and Alan. Michael Allen and Justin.

[Matt Koplik]

I'm just. Sorry. Faggy Trio.

[John Wascavage]

Names. I know. I literally had that same exact thought. I was like, yeah, let's clock the T. Honey Bee.

[Matt Koplik]

Oh, my God. Honey Boo Boo Child. These are the Charlie's Angels.

[John Wascavage]

Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

Of Georgetown.

[John Wascavage]

Yeah. Your name might as well be Matt.

[Matt Koplik]

Your name might as well be John.

[John Wascavage]

No.

[Matt Koplik]

Which, by the way, do you love that I made my protagonist name in my play? John.

[John Wascavage]

I do love that. I do love that. I mean, I had a moment where I was like, is this about me? But then I was like, you bitch. Everything's about you. Everything's about you.

[Matt Koplik]

No, there's no H in the name. So, you know.

[John Wascavage]

No, I do. I do. I do know that. Because there's no H. It's very, very far removed from me. But. So Alan shows up next. Alan was Michael's college, like, bestie friend. And in the play, you. The first time you meet Alan is when he shows up at the door. But earlier in the evening in the play, you are witness to Michael receiving kind of a frantic phone call from Alan. In the movie, you get a lot more insight into that. In the movie, Alan calls Michael, and Alan is in a hotel. He has just gotten to New York, and he is, like, sobbing, and he's like, I really need to see you. And Michael's like, I'm throwing a party. And you see Michael's gay panic kick in because he's like, I cannot have this person who knows me as a straight person who is straight, who has a wife and children. I cannot let him, you know, into this part of my world. Yeah. And so I don't know if it's the same in the play, but at least in the movie, Alan kind of calls back a bit later, this time from a pay phone, and he's all of a sudden put together again, and he's like, hey, you know, I'm so sorry I had that little, like, episode. I'm fine. Can we meet tomorrow? Is that okay? Instead of meeting tonight? So Michael's kind of like, phew, like, we don't have to put on the act for the straight anymore. So he, you know, all his other friends, except for Harold, the birthday boy and the cowboy, which we'll get to in a bit, are there. And they are all, like, dancing out on the patio. They're having a good time, having a gay old romp, and Alan unexpectedly kind of just, like, shows up, even after he said that he was not going to show up anymore. And so Alan, again, is married, he is straight, he has children. But as kind of the play goes on, he is the most ambiguous. It is inferred a lot. And I mean, there are a lot of kind of, like, clues that, is he fully straight? Is that what he was calling Michael about? I mean. And again, we'll get up. There are other reasons why he was, like, crying and upset and called, but there's a lot of grayness in the character of Alan. But he is our most heteronormative character in the whole play. Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

He is a reminder of what's outside the walls of Michael's apartment.

[John Wascavage]

Yes. Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

And also a reminder of where Michael comes from, because until that point, we see Michael as neurotic and can be.

[John Wascavage]

Oh. And we even talk about this. Michael's like an actor. He's unemployed. He's, like, in a ton of debt because he lives beyond his means.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah. In the. In the play, he's a writer. He's very much Mark Crowley. There's a moment where he talks about how he was living off of the money he made by selling a screenplay to a studio. Very literally, what happened to Mark Crowley? And then that. And then that all sort of dried up, and now he's just living on total credit.

[John Wascavage]

Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

And that is still true in the movie that he's, like. He talks about, like, yes, I have all these things, and I. It's all on. It's all on.

[John Wascavage]

Right. It's not. He doesn't actually owe it. But yeah, in the movie, he is an actor.

[Matt Koplik]

I believe he is.

[John Wascavage]

Yeah. But, yeah, Alan is definitely this outside force of who he also was in college. Like, who. You know, it's that thing of, like, when you are closeted, Michael only has that version of, like, knowing how to be that around Alan. Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

And Alan is representative of the majority of the world, or at least of the world as Michael knows it, and wanting that acceptance. But also understanding that he can't really get it, so he kind of secretly just sort of wants to be a part of it. But I can't go into it too much because Harold says it much better than I can.

[John Wascavage]

Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

And so I just want to. We'll get to it. I might just read it as verbatim because it's just too good. Too fucking. Yeah. So then after Alan shows up, and Alan is being very tense his entire time there, he gravitates towards Hank because Hank passes.

[John Wascavage]

Yes. Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

And then when he realizes that Hank isn't straight.

[John Wascavage]

Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

He has a. He has a private moment with. With Michael. And he even says, like, that Hank is a very attractive man.

[John Wascavage]

Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

And he's just very. He's kind of going all twisting his words up and he keeps saying, I'm. I'll leave soon. I'm gonna leave. I'm gonna leave. And then he keeps not leaving.

[John Wascavage]

Right.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah. And then the cowboy shows up.

[John Wascavage]

Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

And who is the cowboy?

[John Wascavage]

The cowboy is a young hustler. He is Emery's present to Harold. And I don't remember who opens the door.

[Matt Koplik]

Michael opens the door for the cowboy.

[John Wascavage]

Okay. Yeah. So he basically, you know, the cowboy is just a present. He sings Happy Birthday and kisses Michael, thinking that he's Harold. I'm assuming there's kind of the same thing where, like, he has a tag, because I loved that he's got a card. Yeah. Like, literally. I mean, the cowboy is treated as a present. He has ala. As if he were a doll. Like a large card tag tied to his wrist for Harold for his birthday. Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

And I love. He's also. He's not the brightest. The cowboy.

[John Wascavage]

No.

[Matt Koplik]

And this is something that I actually really was disappointed with with the casting for the revival. It was Charlie Carver in the revival.

[John Wascavage]

Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

Who is a very handsome man.

[John Wascavage]

And he. He is the gay twin of the two.

[Matt Koplik]

I think so.

[John Wascavage]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

Because I mean, he has to be, because that. That whole revival cast, they're like, we're all gay twin. But so Charlie Carver does not necessarily present as a stud. He presents more as like a very beautiful young man. Like a boyish young man. And what I love about Robert Letourneau in the original is he is very much like a studly dummy, like, corn fed Midwestern type.

[John Wascavage]

Yeah. You could literally see him hoeing the fields.

[Matt Koplik]

Yes, exactly. Which probably makes him a very popular hustler, because you can have that fantasy of my football jock from high school.

[John Wascavage]

Exactly. 100%.

[Matt Koplik]

100% which also makes the jabs at him. First of all, the way he, Robert Letourneau, was told by Robert Moore, the director, he's like, all the jabs that come your way, you, they just fall off of you. It's not because you don't pay them the mind. It's because you're too dumb to realize that they're insults. So you just keep going. He goes, and that is sort of the beauty of you and why everyone sort of gives up in the end.

[John Wascavage]

I was gonna say. And it's so successful. Like, it's actually really charming. I mean. Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

And I think. But also I think because of his physical stature, it helps. Whereas Charlie is, he's not short, but he's not a tall, burly boy. And so when they insult Charlie, you're like, stop hurting this little twink.

[John Wascavage]

Leave that twink alone.

[Matt Koplik]

Leave the twink alone.

[John Wascavage]

Dear God, you're killing him. He's already dead.

[Matt Koplik]

You keep punching more holes in him. Who do you think that is, John with scavenge?

[John Wascavage]

Twink death.

[Matt Koplik]

Twink death. Truly not even 30. But. So, yes, he shows up and the card says, dear Harold, bang, bang, you're alive, but roll over, play dead.

[John Wascavage]

Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

And it's very funny.

[John Wascavage]

That is very, very funny. Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

I didn't get the joke.

[John Wascavage]

How could you?

[Matt Koplik]

How could you have the joke? But then also the other thing is.

[John Wascavage]

Sorry.

[Matt Koplik]

With, with him, with the, with the Hustler in, in the original, you do get the idea of like. Yeah, no, he's gonna, he's young, but he's like a brilliant up top that he'll totally plow weirdo Leonard Frey. And then in the revival, it's like, there's no way Zachary Quinto is bending over for Charlie Carver. No. He's like, wow.

[John Wascavage]

And a Great Dane.

[Matt Koplik]

Exactly. He's going to sodomize Charlie Carver tonight and again. And make it makes it like a little less fun. It's like, it makes it a little more like, not perverted, but just like a little more ick. A little more ick there.

[John Wascavage]

Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

And maybe it's also my Zachary Quinto vibe. I just, I, I get that. I, I, we all know publicly he's not a nice person. There have been so many articles about how he acts at brunch. So just something about his herald became less of a self aware oddity and more of an indulgent dick, which I think made his pairing off with the Hustler at the end less. Not charming. But like, we'll get into it and.

[John Wascavage]

You kind of need Michael to be the biggest dick.

[Matt Koplik]

It's why Quinto should have been Michael.

[John Wascavage]

Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

Although I guess he's. He's. His Judaism makes him not a Michael type.

[John Wascavage]

Sure.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah. But it's not Parsons either.

[John Wascavage]

Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

I don't know. We need to. I've only enjoyed Parsons in An act of God.

[John Wascavage]

I liked. I liked him that. I liked him in Harvey, too.

[Matt Koplik]

Oh, I didn't see Harvey.

[John Wascavage]

Harvey, but that's because it was just kind of like. Just charming. Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

Like, I saw him in act of God where he was literally playing God in the form of Jim Parsons. I saw Normal Heart boys in the band Men of no Importance and Mother Play. And honestly, it was really just act of God that I enjoyed him. And so after man of no Importance and Mother Play, I kind of sat there. I was like, can we stop making Jim Parsons on stage happen? He's. I enjoy him. He's talented, but, like, I just don't think this is his medium.

[John Wascavage]

Yeah. No, and I think that's very, very fair. I mean, what a bazinga to his.

[Matt Koplik]

To his millions and millions of dollars.

[John Wascavage]

To his ego. Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah. To his Emmys and Tony and that Tony nomination he got for Mother Play.

[John Wascavage]

Right.

[Matt Koplik]

I digress.

[John Wascavage]

So I was supposed to see Mother Play, but I got Covid.

[Matt Koplik]

Well, you got lucky is what you got, Honey boo boo child. Yes. Mama, sit down. Mama, Carl's sick. Mama, it's bad. Mama, it's aids. That was Mama, it's me, Mama. A rainbow. Mama, it's aids. Mama. John. But Alan breaks out. There's a fight breaks out right before Harold shows up, which is actually another one of my favorite lines from Emery. I don't know if you remember this one, because Alan says to Michael privately, I don't like Emery.

[John Wascavage]

Yes.

[Matt Koplik]

He's too effeminate for me and Michael, to his credit, for a minute, he's like. He's actually pretty funny.

[John Wascavage]

Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

If you get to know him. He's like. And he goes, well, he's effeminate. Michael's like, yeah, he is.

[John Wascavage]

Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

Just says it. And then when Alan is about to leave, Emery basically has been. Michael has told everyone they have to behave when Ellen shows up.

[John Wascavage]

Right. And Emery is the one who does not want to behave. I mean, like, literally in one ear, out the other. And, like, I don't want to do that.

[Matt Koplik]

Which I get, because, like, totally the whole point of, you know, the pain of coming out and telling everyone and the humiliation from certain parts of your life, it's like, I did all that So I wouldn't have to act a certain way.

[John Wascavage]

And I will say that, like, at least from what we'll get to later in Act 2 with the phone call. Emery is the one who has been out and accepting of his homosexuality for the longest. Like he was a youngin and he was like. I mean, he even says, I knew that I was gay when I was. Or I knew that I was different or when I was 4. But also like very adamantly has that crush on, you know, the dentist and.

[Matt Koplik]

Is ultimately the most courageous out of all of them.

[John Wascavage]

Yeah, I agree.

[Matt Koplik]

And it's. I mean, I think Emery is such a beautiful part. It's interesting with. It's interesting with Cliff Gorman who played it in the original, especially looking back now because it's so easy to see some of the put upon, effeminate nature that he does.

[John Wascavage]

Yeah. I mean, I wouldn't call his performance as Emery in the movie as a very subtle, subtle performance.

[Matt Koplik]

I do think it probably landed better on stage.

[John Wascavage]

Yeah. I still love it. Loved it. I still loved it on the screen.

[Matt Koplik]

But it's, it holds up, by all means. Especially in the second half when you see how he goes. But it's funny because he is such a He. Or was he. He passed.

[John Wascavage]

He.

[Matt Koplik]

He was such a butch man and to the end he was so successful at the time in the role that people in New York assumed he was gay and would see him on the street with his wife and be like, why are you hiding? And he would have to be like, I'm an, I'm an actor. I. I did that for a thing. And he probably benefited the most from Boys in the Band, I would say, because he went on to win a Tony for the play Lenny in Films. He was in. Yeah, Lenny, which was then made into a movie with Dustin Hoffman. And it's sort of. Sorry we didn't use you for this. For the movie version. Bob Fosse put Cliff Gorman in All that Jazz. When Roy Scheider is editing his character's version of Lenny, I think it's called the stand up or something. And Cliff Gorman plays that part in the film. In the film. So it's all very meta. He's also in An Unmarried Woman. He's brilliant, brilliant actor. Like watch him in An Unmarried Woman and then realize that's who he is normally. And then see him as Emery in Boys in the Band.

[John Wascavage]

But yes.

[Matt Koplik]

So Alan don't like Emery. Emery don't like Alan.

[John Wascavage]

Yeah, no, offtight.

[Matt Koplik]

And he keeps doing the pronouns to fuck with Alan and To fuck with Michael.

[John Wascavage]

Yeah. Kind of the opposite sides of the Kinsey scale.

[Matt Koplik]

Truly.

[John Wascavage]

Largest gap of numbers.

[Matt Koplik]

Exactly. Because he keeps saying her, she. And Michael keeps giving him glances and he says, oh, sorry. He's like, I have such trouble with my pronouns. And then at some point he says something to Alan and Alan says something. Like, how many S's are there in pronouns? Talking about his lisp. And Emery says like, oh, kiss my ass. That's like four more S's for you. And he goes, well, then why don't you. He goes, why don't you blow me? To which Emery says, what's the matter? Your wife got lockjaw?

[John Wascavage]

Brilliant. Brilliant. So good.

[Matt Koplik]

And they go into a giant fight.

[John Wascavage]

Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

He's killing me. Yeah, I know. Barnard, help me.

[John Wascavage]

He's murdering me.

[Matt Koplik]

And in this rumble.

[John Wascavage]

Yes.

[Matt Koplik]

Is when Harold finally shows up.

[John Wascavage]

Yeah. And I gotta say, my first introduction to who plays who's Harold.

[Matt Koplik]

Leonard Frey.

[John Wascavage]

Leonard Frey in the movie was. I was like. After his, like, first, like two lines, I was like, I do not like what he's doing. By his, like, third line, I was like, I love what he's doing. Like, I was. It was such a drastic turnaround, I think because of.

[Matt Koplik]

Of his. Of literally what those first three lines are.

[John Wascavage]

Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

And we'll get into those first three lines. But first, Jan, we should take another break. Billy, I beg to differ with you.

[John Wascavage]

How do you mean?

[Matt Koplik]

You're the top.

[John Wascavage]

Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

You're an arrow collar. You're the top. You're a Coolidge dollar. You're the nimble tread of the feet of Freddy. And we back. I really do hope Squatty Potty is a sponsor for this one. Not only because I'll have made it, but it's just so right for this episode.

[John Wascavage]

You will have made it. Squatty Potty helps with that. Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

On that note, guys, don't forget to go to BroadwayCon this Saturday, July 27, because 2:30 is when I get to do my hour long episode.

[John Wascavage]

Oh, my God.

[Matt Koplik]

Me and Will and Rachel Anderson, AKA the theater lovers. What are we gonna. Oh, I love that. They're fucking awesome.

[John Wascavage]

Yeah, they are awesome.

[Matt Koplik]

What are we going to talk about? That's up to you. We're doing an Edwin Drew situation.

[John Wascavage]

Oh, my gosh.

[Matt Koplik]

We've got three options. Carousel, which they came up with. Merrily we roll along in Little Shop of Horrors and people will vote which one they want.

[John Wascavage]

I love that.

[Matt Koplik]

Yep. And we won't be doing tallying because that's too much math for me. But they will get to put their votes on a piece of paper, put it in our bowl, which we have named Sally bowl. And we draw in the first minute of the recording the show that, that, that we will cover. And that's what we cover. And if there's. Of those three, if there's one you really want, vote for it and have your friends vote for it. You gotta come to the recording and. And. And make it happen. Baby, you heard it here first.

[John Wascavage]

Voting is very important.

[Matt Koplik]

It is very important for other things as well, I've been told. I don't know.

[John Wascavage]

Just this.

[Matt Koplik]

Just this.

[John Wascavage]

Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

I don't know what else is going on in the world, but for this alone, nothing is more important than coming to BroadwayCon. July 27th.

[John Wascavage]

The biggest vote you will cast this.

[Matt Koplik]

Year is July 27th, the BroadwayCon for whether it's Carousel, Little Shop of Horrors, or Merrily We Roll Along. And if you don't, you're problematic.

[John Wascavage]

And where you say merrily we roll.

[Matt Koplik]

Along, Merrily we roll along. If you don't, you're problematic. And if you don't, Matt Doyle wins.

[John Wascavage]

Oh, gosh.

[Matt Koplik]

And we can't make that happen. I don't know, Matt.

[John Wascavage]

This is how Aaron debate could still lose the Tony.

[Matt Koplik]

I really should have said Aaron. I don't. Poor Matt. I don't know why I said Matt. He was just like the first name that came into my head.

[John Wascavage]

No worries. Generic white boy.

[Matt Koplik]

Jesus titty fucking Christ. So Harold shows up.

[John Wascavage]

Harold. Harold shows up. Harold shows up, says his first three lines.

[Matt Koplik]

Yes. So he reads the card because Emery's like, that's Harold. Go. And the cowboy sings the happy birthday and kisses him. Harold reads the card and goes into the biggest cackle this side of Bette Midler and Hocus Pocus.

[John Wascavage]

I mean, God, the cack. I remember, like, literally, I think my head flew back when he cackled because.

[Matt Koplik]

I was like, oh, he's also like a sight. He's got tight. He's got a tight Jew fro.

[John Wascavage]

He's the curliest, curliest. I mean, sorry, this is another tangent. My mom did hair for years and she still styles. My Uncle Jimmy, she still styles his hair exactly like Harold. Oh, my God. And so when I saw that, I was like, uncle Jimmy. But I mean, like the tightest 70s fro. White, white, white person fro.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah. I have to imagine that's a wig on Leonard because.

[John Wascavage]

Oh, yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

Especially because when you. When you see him in Fiddler on the Roof, the movie where he plays muddle. Oscar nominated for it too. Like A year after this one, too.

[John Wascavage]

So he played Muddle after doing. Oh, my gosh. I know we played both of. I know we did both, but I think that was.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah, I told you that this. This show and movie was good for a lot of the cast. Maybe not long term for all of them, but for a couple of years, they all got a good amount of mileage out of it. Yeah. Leonard got to do the Fiddler movie and was Oscar nominated for Model. And honestly doesn't like. He's pretty cute in it. He's got feathery hair. He's got the beard. He looks cute. And then in Boyz in the Band, he looks like an alien.

[John Wascavage]

Truly. I mean, yeah, he has. And they talk about this a lot in the show, but, you know, he has pockmarked skin. And I mean, the prosthetics they apply to him sometimes are very successful looking. But there is a moment in the movie, towards the end where I was like. Like, the light catches it, and it literally looks like he has, like, Silly Putty that someone has first put on a newspaper to transfer a Garfield cartoon. And then they just smacked that on his face.

[Matt Koplik]

It's when the lighting gets a little more theatrical at the end.

[John Wascavage]

Yes. Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

Because then it just shines. But, yeah, he has got pockmarks. He's very pale. He's wearing a tight, I guess, like, green corduroy suit, maybe. And tinted glasses.

[John Wascavage]

Yeah, it's definitely green or like purple. Like one of those kind of just like very like, like garish colors where you're like. Not everyone owns a suit that color.

[Matt Koplik]

Exactly. It's. It is a look.

[John Wascavage]

Yes.

[Matt Koplik]

It's not a look most people would go for, but it is. He is. He has. Harold has chosen basically to look like an oddity.

[John Wascavage]

I will say I tried to take notes during this, but I actually just end up getting so enthralled with it that I. I didn't stick through it. However, my favorite note that I wrote down, I will read to you right now. Harold looks like Bradley Cooper in Maestro.

[Matt Koplik]

No, he looks like Bradley Cooper in American Hustle.

[John Wascavage]

Oh, no, See, with the curls. Well, with the curls, but also with the. Like, with Bradley Cooper's prosthetic nose. All I could think about was that scene towards the end of Maestro where he's like the old gay sweatily dancing. And I was like, oh, my God, it's Harold.

[Matt Koplik]

There you are, Harold.

[John Wascavage]

There you are, Harold. But no, yeah, Harold. Harold. Looks and sounds. And I mean, again, like, I truly went from being, like, kind of put off to his performance. To very quickly being like, I love what he's doing.

[Matt Koplik]

So, yeah, the three lines.

[John Wascavage]

Yeah, go for it.

[Matt Koplik]

Harold reads the card and cackles like a banshee.

[John Wascavage]

Yes.

[Matt Koplik]

And Michael says, what's so goddamn funny? And Harold goes, life, Life is a goddamn riot. You remember life. And it's in this very. Leonard Frey does in this very high pitched, like, yeah, spacey. You remember life, don't you? Like life. Life is a goddamn riot. And you. It's made then clear that Harold is very stoned.

[John Wascavage]

Very stoned.

[Matt Koplik]

Because also Harold is late. He's very late to his own birthday. And Michael being the douche nugget he is, he's like, you're late. You were supposed to be here at probably 8:39.

[John Wascavage]

I know, I loved that.

[Matt Koplik]

And then what Harold said says is, and I'm gonna do my best Leonard Frey, because I'm gonna be terrible. But I can only go for Leonard, not for Zachary. What I am, Michael, is a 32 year old, ugly, pockmarked Jew fairy. And if it takes me a while to pull myself together and if I smoke a little grass before I can get up the nerve to show my face to the world, it's nobody's goddamn business but my own beat and how are you this evening? And that. And he says this while he slowly glides to Michael. We also find out that Harold used to be an ice skater.

[John Wascavage]

Yes.

[Matt Koplik]

So Harold is also based off. Everyone in this play is based off of somebody that Martin knew. But Harold is based off of a very specific person. I think his name was Harvey something or other. He was a dancer. And Howard Jeffrey, who was a dancer, worked on many movies and was specifically requested by Barbra Streisand in any movie musical she did to be her partner. Because she didn't. She wasn't a dancer. And she's like, I only trust myself with Howard. Yeah. So that was.

[John Wascavage]

Who did they dance together in the hello Dolly movie?

[Matt Koplik]

He's one of the butlers and he's the one she takes the arm of.

[John Wascavage]

That's what I thought. Oh my God.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah. And then he's also in Funny Girl. He's the one she partners with in his Love Makes Me Beautiful.

[John Wascavage]

Oh, yeah. Funny Girl in such a long time.

[Matt Koplik]

It's good. It's too long.

[John Wascavage]

It's. Well, that's why. Yeah, I remember like, I loved it, but I was like, oh, I need a decade before. Truly before I can watch.

[Matt Koplik]

It's 245, it should be 210. And. And everyone Knows it and no one's willing to say it, but Harold and Michael, their relationship, there were some similarities.

[John Wascavage]

From another two gays that I know. A Jewish gay and a gay with religious guilt and trauma. Alcoholic, alcoholic, control freak.

[Matt Koplik]

Lives beyond his means.

[John Wascavage]

Lives beyond his means. And is an actor question mark. Is a writer question mark.

[Matt Koplik]

The Jewish gay seems to only be able to get laid if someone pays for it.

[John Wascavage]

I don't know where I've read this story before.

[Matt Koplik]

Is late for everything.

[John Wascavage]

Is late for anything. Thinks that they're recording a podcast at one location, but then we need to show for a second location. I did follow a gay to a second location today. And I am here to speak the truth, but I'm here to tell the tale. Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

Also I will say this other Jewish person that we keep talking about has a cackle that some have said gives them shingles.

[John Wascavage]

Yeah, yeah. I don't know where I've read these stories before, but very interesting.

[Matt Koplik]

Honestly, John, I would say if we were to put the religious stuff aside, I feel like personality wise, you're more of the Harold and I'm more the Michael.

[John Wascavage]

I would agree with that. I mean, I would agree with that. It's funny. We do really share. I mean, and not just because I show up to places high, but I am not late.

[Matt Koplik]

Were you raised Catholic? Christian.

[John Wascavage]

What? Born again Christian. So we thought that Catholics were like, were like weaklings. We're like, oh, God, those people. Barely skirting by.

[Matt Koplik]

So I think you and I need to do a production where we have Michael not going to St. Malachy's for Mass, but going to Temple Emmanuel and having Harold come in and be like, what I am Michael. It's a 32 year old born again Christian.

[John Wascavage]

Born again Christian Evangelical fairy.

[Matt Koplik]

Yes. With crater skin.

[John Wascavage]

Well, I mean, hopefully not.

[Matt Koplik]

No, you and I both have very good skin.

[John Wascavage]

Yeah. I was gonna say, luckily, luckily, we don't have the pockmarks.

[Matt Koplik]

Thank you, Accutane.

[John Wascavage]

Yeah, thank you.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah, but this is. Sorry, we. We also were talking about the plot and it all boils down to the second half of this party once Harold shows up.

[John Wascavage]

Yes. And so this. And basically, like literally he shows up and then in the play, it is the act break and then intermission happens. And intermission is a thing where. Let me explain what. Intermission is for everyone. No, but in the play, where does it pick up? I'm looking.

[Matt Koplik]

Harold shows up and then it's intermission. And then. And that's also when Michael takes his first drink. Because Michael decides to.

[John Wascavage]

Yes, yes, yes. Because did you mention this? That Michael was. Yeah, yeah. Okay. So he had very specifically said that he was, like, not drinking anymore. And then he very much goes, you know what, jk?

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah, well. Cause he says to Donald, I was tired of the hangovers. We also both know that I get really nasty when I drink.

[John Wascavage]

Yes. I mean, and that was so clearly Chekhov's gun to me. As I was watching the movie, I was like, okay, so she's gonna start drinking and things are gonna get nursed.

[Matt Koplik]

And the person who clocks that Michael's been drinking is Harold, or at least has had a drink because the whole night he's been drinking club soda out of a glass. And then Harold shows up, and they're sitting, and Harold says something along the lines, like, be careful of the vengeful queen. Like, when she's sober, she's. She's spiteful. When she's had a drink, she's lethal.

[John Wascavage]

Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

And she also says. Because she also says turning on when. When Harold is smoking marijuana. Goes turning on. And then says to Michael, michael, I'm turning on. And you're just turning. And then every time that Michael gets a little darker, Harold will just shout, turning. Harold can clock when Michael's getting worse.

[John Wascavage]

I don't remember that from the movie. I don't know if that's in the movie.

[Matt Koplik]

The turning is in the movie for sure, because it's always Leonard Frey sitting there eating the casserole or lasagna.

[John Wascavage]

Oh, maybe. Maybe I do remember that because it's.

[Matt Koplik]

It's so quiet. It's so quick, and it's not played for a big thing. If this. Like, if this were. I don't know if this were. Who's a bad director these days? Ryan Murphy. If this was Ryan Murphy, there would be a zoom in and a Vaseline lens of Harold going, turning. But it's just a quick shot of Leonard Frey going, turning. Yeah, like, I'm. I'm. I hear you, Michael. I know you're getting worse.

[John Wascavage]

Yeah. Yeah. And so these two, you know, they definitely have. They are frenemies. They are best friends. They push each other's buttons even more. So way more. And I mean, as the play goes on, way more than Emery and Bernard in a different way.

[Matt Koplik]

But, you know, because it's not playful. It's. No, I'm trying to push. I'm not just trying to push your button. I'm trying to push you.

[John Wascavage]

Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

Off the cliff.

[John Wascavage]

Honestly, like, there were a lot of parts about their relationship that I was, like, kind of shocked at. How nasty they. They were with each other. Again, like it, it goes back to that thing of kind of like, you know, and this was something I did want to talk about with it, with this play. And I'm sure it's one of the reasons why we are talking about it with problematic. I mean, because we live in such a media illiterate day and age now where characters can't have flaws. Because if characters have flaws, that means that they are glorifying that lifestyle, you know. And so it I all I could think about like especially. And like every time Harold and Michael spoke, I was like, oh, if a Gen Z or watched this, they would, they would, their mind would explode.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah. Gen Z, Gen Alpha. You know what I found out? Someone said the other day, they were like, you realize that the oldest Gen Z era now is like 25.

[John Wascavage]

Oh dear God.

[Matt Koplik]

I know, right? Well, because Gen z ends at 2010. So now we're talking like, like no, no, but like people keep talking about 13, 14 year olds like they're Gen Z and I'm like, that's Gen Elephant now It's.

[John Wascavage]

Oh God.

[Matt Koplik]

I mean Gen Z does still count with the older teenagers.

[John Wascavage]

Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

15 through 19. But yeah, no, it's. And I think Gen Z is slowly kind of understanding like we were placating them for a while and now we're like, no, no. Your taste in a lot of art actually sucks because you don't want danger, you don't want messiness, you don't want sex. And like, like you're right now you're 15 and sheltered. When you become 25 and have some life experience, you'll realize people fuck up and do crazy things and sex is a part of life.

[John Wascavage]

Yep. And you fuck up and yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. And just because. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

But most. Once Harold arrives, it's mostly just a lot of barbs for like a good 45 minutes. Yeah. Just constant sniping. Everyone sort of just sniping at each other all the time.

[John Wascavage]

Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

Larry getting jealous because Alan is kind of not coming onto Hank but gravitating towards Hank.

[John Wascavage]

Right.

[Matt Koplik]

And Larry doesn't like that even though Larry's be fucking around. And Emery is keeps saying that they're gonna leave now because Alan beat the shit out of them.

[John Wascavage]

Right. And in the play is this also when like although like lasagna. Yeah. And Emery's kind of like Emery does very quickly bounce back in some ways. The moment to play Susie Homemaker, which I loved again. I was like, I see a lot of myself At Emory, I was like, like trauma. And then immediately. Would you like my lasagna?

[Matt Koplik]

Well, because yeah, cuz em's the one who shows up with the food and, and.

[John Wascavage]

Or casserole.

[Matt Koplik]

It's a casserole.

[John Wascavage]

Lasagna.

[Matt Koplik]

It's a lasagna in the movie, it's a casserole in the stage show. And I like the change to lasagna because there's a line in the movie that I don't think is in the stage show. The, the. The cowboy. So first of all, the cowboy gets there early, he fucks up early. He. He kisses Michael, which is wrong. And he shows up like an hour early and. Or like an hour and a half early. And he says to Emory, he's like, well, I want to get to the bars. And he's like, what are you fucking talking about? I paid for you the whole night. And then he changes his tune. He goes, ah, well, you know, I hurt myself at the gym and I should go get some rest. And then when they talk, when everyone talks about the gym and the sauna as a place to like cruise, he go, or the steam room. The steam room to cruise. The cowboy, without even thinking, goes, oh, I don't go into the steam room. It flattens your muscles. And they're like, what? And then, and then he sees the lasagna, doesn't know what the fuck it is, and they go, it's lasagna. And he goes, oh, like this noodle's been flattened. And they go, it's been in the steam room. And, and he can't even clock that they're making fun of him. He goes, it has.

[John Wascavage]

I love it.

[Matt Koplik]

It's. We listen. He is a sweet dum dum who is too dumb to know when he's being mocked. And for that we are grateful.

[John Wascavage]

Truly.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah, truly. Sticks and stones can't break his bones because he. It's every. Wait, did you ever see that movie Being There? Being? Yeah, being there. It's a Peter Sellers movie. I think it's his only Oscar nomination, maybe a second or his first. But it's a movie about a dude who's so sheltered, who's. Who has lived his entire life like within four walls and watching television. And so all he knows is TV and gardening and. Because, yeah, I think like he, he lived with a man who was like the gardener for this estate or whatever. So he's like, has never been to the outside world world and doesn't know anything. And eventually he gets released at like the prime old age of 55 or whatever. And he talks in such a way that everyone projects onto him what they think he's talking about. So he ends up, like, getting into politics accidentally because he talks about trees and what it takes to make a tree grow. And everyone goes, oh, my God. The metaphor for this country, like, he. This symbolism. Yeah. Like, this man, this is 1979. They're like, this man knows what to do. And Shirley MacLaine is this big socialite with a dying husband who. They take him in, and she, like, is kind of attracted to her. And they're in her bedroom, and she's got the TV on, and she. And she says to Peter Sellers, what is it you like? And he goes, I like to watch. Meaning tv. And she goes, oh, phenomenal. She goes, this will turn you on then. So basically, the whole scene, then, is a shot of Peter Sellers just watching the TV on this. On the edge of the bed while Shirley MacLaine is on the side of the bed masturbating. And, like. And like, you never see her. You just see her hand constantly, like, touching him while he's just watching tv. And when it's over, she goes, oh, my God, that was amazing. But the point is, at the end of the movie, things happen, and all these people, all these powerful people talk about Peter Sellers character as someone who could possibly even run for president. And the final shot is Peter Sellers character walking away from all of this and literally walking on water. Not because he's. And then, like, stopping on the water, looking at it, taking his umbrella, stabbing the water, realizing something could go through there and going, huh? And then just walking off. And the idea people have said is his character walks on water because no one ever told him he could fall through it.

[John Wascavage]

Oh, my gosh. Stitch that on a pillow and I'd buy it from Target in a heartbeat.

[Matt Koplik]

Exactly. And so for the cowboy, it's like sticks and stones can't break his bones because he doesn't know what sticks and stones are.

[John Wascavage]

He's never seen a goddamn stick or a stone in his life. Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

He's like, why should I? Look at.

[John Wascavage]

He's like, I have those in the gym.

[Matt Koplik]

Those aren't. Those are in the steam room. And I don't go in there. Yeah. So it's the beauty of his character. He's like. All these barbs can't touch him because he's like, what. What does that mean again? It's so. It's so sweet.

[John Wascavage]

It is. It makes him a very, very endearing character.

[Matt Koplik]

But that is also what Makes Emery stay because he keeps. He keeps going. I've been attacked. I've been murdered. And there's also the funny joke where he comes out of the bathroom fixing up his face and getting a new sweater. And that's when Alan rushes in to vomit because he's been drinking. It's like. And as they're passing Emery shrouds, he's at me again, which I'm sure just absolutely kills in the theater. I say, like, I haven't seen it before. But then Emery keeps saying, I'm gonna go. I'm gonna go. And Harold goes, well, I'm famished. I would really like what Emery made. And Emery's on a dime. Oh, amazing. I'll serve everyone.

[John Wascavage]

Yeah, truly, like, literally turns into Betty Crocker.

[Matt Koplik]

Isn't anyone gonna have seconds? I make someone a really nice wife.

[John Wascavage]

But serving carbs to gay men? Brave.

[Matt Koplik]

Very brave. Listen, half of those gay men were, like, very fit gay men, too.

[John Wascavage]

They were very fit.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah.

[John Wascavage]

Very, very tiny.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah. Donald has.

[John Wascavage]

I was gonna say the actor played Donald. I literally was like, I want to feed you a sandwich.

[Matt Koplik]

I know. Well, especially when you see his tiny little white butt in the shower.

[John Wascavage]

I know. I loved that, John. Well, no, I just didn't.

[Matt Koplik]

Are we cosplaying as Dom Topps now?

[John Wascavage]

I just didn't expect to see a butt. I knew I was gonna say gay things, but I. You know, when I see a butt. When I see a butt from the 70s, it's not an everyday thing.

[Matt Koplik]

That's how I feel whenever I see Diane Wiest in a movie and that I'm not expecting, I'm like, diane Wiest, what's your little tush doing here?

[John Wascavage]

God forbid. The moment Diane Wiest finds this podcast and she's like, did those gays just compare me to a white man's ass? I don't know. Everyone's Midwestern today. I know. Diane Wease does not.

[Matt Koplik]

Does not reminisce as two perfect scoops of vanilla. And in a shower, Diane. Absolutely.

[John Wascavage]

Piano. I. I love.

[Matt Koplik]

I don't know why you love that, Emery.

[John Wascavage]

I love that he kept offering seconds. I love that we got to see an ass.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah. These are carbs and butts. All things that John enjoys.

[John Wascavage]

Yeah, for sure.

[Matt Koplik]

What are other things that John enjoys?

[John Wascavage]

That's it. Okay.

[Matt Koplik]

I just like saying John enjoys John.

[John Wascavage]

Enjoys John and Joyce. John and Joyce.

[Matt Koplik]

That'll be. I think that's gonna be. That'll be your. Your next YouTube series or a. Another hour of John and Joyce this week. John enjoyed. Or a.

[John Wascavage]

Maybe my dragon will be John and Joyce Carol Oats. John and Joyce.

[Matt Koplik]

Joyce Carol Oats.

[John Wascavage]

Stupid.

[Matt Koplik]

And then people will hear it and.

[John Wascavage]

Go, that makes no sense.

[Matt Koplik]

They'll be like, john and Joyce Carol Oates do what? Exactly. You're like the new Donnie and Marie.

[John Wascavage]

Yeah. Oh, my God. Joyce and I could definitely be the new Donnie Marie. Donnie and Marie. Not let alone our Mormonism, but yes. Okay, I guess back to the boys in the Men.

[Matt Koplik]

Yes. So we have this. The dinner's happening. Michael is turning.

[John Wascavage]

Yes.

[Matt Koplik]

Alan finally decides that she's going to leave.

[John Wascavage]

Yeah. After all, she is. She's had it officially.

[Matt Koplik]

I've had it officially. And that is when Michael goes, let's actually get some more laundry out here. Because you see, Alan, Hank and Larry aren't just roommates. He goes, no man over 30 has a roommate.

[John Wascavage]

I loved that line because, oh, boy.

[Matt Koplik]

Has that not aged well.

[John Wascavage]

I know. I was like, oh, drag everyone.

[Matt Koplik]

I'm like, sweetheart, everyone's got roommates now.

[John Wascavage]

Drag all of us.

[Matt Koplik]

All of us. But in 1968, when you could have an apartment like Michael's for not a ton of money.

[John Wascavage]

Yeah, I know. I think there was there a moment where they said, how much he pays for the apartment, or. No, it's. Wasn't it something like how much someone makes a week? I don't remember.

[Matt Koplik]

Donald makes $45 a week being a charwoman. And he's like, and here you are buying Vicuna. And Michael goes, just because I have it doesn't mean it's paid for.

[John Wascavage]

Yeah, Yeah. I mean, $45 a week.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah. Well, it can keep Donald over a garage in the Hamptons. That's what it can. But that also is in line with what Donald says about his therapy is realizing he was raised to be a failure, and he just sort of. He undercuts himself at every turn. So he could probably make more money doing other things, but this is just.

[John Wascavage]

Sort of what he thinks he deserves.

[Matt Koplik]

Exactly. And coming into the city for therapy. Coming into the city once a week to stay at Michael's. Coming into the city to hook up with other men, AKA Larry.

[John Wascavage]

Oh, right, right, right.

[Matt Koplik]

Yes. We find. We realize that Donald and Larry have known each other.

[John Wascavage]

Yes. Biblically.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah, exactly. There are also. There are a couple of lines in the play that are cut in the movie. Talking about popper. Yeah.

[John Wascavage]

There were no poppers at all what I watched.

[Matt Koplik]

I know.

[John Wascavage]

At least not in that movie.

[Matt Koplik]

You should read the play. It's very. It's truly very similar. It's mostly just like Mart going, I'll cut that line here, I'll cut that line there. But there are three or four different times they mentioned poppers. And one of them that I remember is Larry saying off the top of his head, I hate the way poppers makes your fingers smell.

[John Wascavage]

Twitch. I go, are you pouring? He's dipping his fingers in the popper.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah, I would say, are you dipping your finger in the popper and then smelling your finger? Is that what you're doing? Or are you just going, why even smell it? Why don't. Why don't I just take the poppers on my finger and shove it up someone's butthole?

[John Wascavage]

I know that. That's what I just thought, too.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah. I wonder if in the, in the. In the stone age of 1968.

[John Wascavage]

In the Stonewall age. Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

Game. The pre Stonewall age, even. There was. There was pre Stonewall where gay men put poppers on their fingers and thought that's how you got loose by shoving it up someone's butt.

[John Wascavage]

Or.

[Matt Koplik]

And then there was post Stonewall, when they go, oh, you can just sniff it, and it does the same thing.

[John Wascavage]

But did they even have VCRs then? No. So wait, were. Were poppers around before VCR?

[Matt Koplik]

They were a party drug at that point.

[John Wascavage]

So it was. They were. They didn't have. They weren't used for cleaning. It was just.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah, it was just the party drug. And then I think what happened was they realized they could be used to clean VCRs.

[John Wascavage]

That's amazing.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah. So I do not think it was the they cleaned VCRs. And gay men realized, oh, hey, well.

[John Wascavage]

Because that's always what I thought it was. I literally thought it was some gay cleaning on his vcr and, like, being like, like. And then just being open and being like, I got an idea for her.

[Matt Koplik]

Well, you also know that Coca Cola can clean your toilet, right?

[John Wascavage]

Well, yeah, but I don't drink soda.

[Matt Koplik]

Yes, me neither, unless I'm sick. But that's. It's one of those things where Coca Cola started. Or maybe Coca Cola started off as a toilet cleaner. Then they went, well, add sugar and you can make it a soft drink. But I think it was a soft drink that then they realized, oh, with all the shit we put in it, this actually can fully clean your toilet.

[John Wascavage]

Jesus Christ.

[Matt Koplik]

I know. The things we gay men put in our bodies. And let's not even start about Matt Doyle.

[John Wascavage]

I'm sorry, Matt.

[Matt Koplik]

I don't know you, but Matt Doyle and I went to the same voice teacher when I was in high school.

[John Wascavage]

Okay.

[Matt Koplik]

Yes.

[John Wascavage]

Then you have free. You have free reign.

[Matt Koplik]

Yes. I think I was more mad that Matt was of the age, that my voice teacher couldn't groom him, so he groomed me. And I'm like, ugh, he's the boy that got away. He's the Kevin Bacon to my Tim Robbins and Mr. Griffin.

[John Wascavage]

Oh, Jesus Christ.

[Matt Koplik]

It's fine. He didn't know. I don't think. I don't think. You never know. Who knows? Which brings us back to I wasn't. Oh, my God.

[John Wascavage]

Him not knowing. I was only counting about the grooming, but.

[Matt Koplik]

Okay, we've talked about that, haven't we?

[John Wascavage]

I don't know if we have.

[Matt Koplik]

I've talked about it on the podcast a bunch. Yeah. I was groomed in high school by my voice teacher, and I don't use that word lightly. I was textbooked.

[John Wascavage]

Jesus Christ.

[Matt Koplik]

I know, right? Well, he's dead now, so it's fine.

[John Wascavage]

Good.

[Matt Koplik]

I talk about it very openly. He. He died during COVID He wasn't a bad person, but that was the bad thing that happened between us for sure. And it took college and distance for me to realize because I had to look back on everything and go, oh, it Honestly, without the incest. It was very two bit. And her Uncle Peck from How to. I learned to drive because it was someone who gave me so much on a cultural, mental, emotional level.

[John Wascavage]

Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

But then also was grooming me.

[John Wascavage]

Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

So, like, I learned so much about the world and history and myself, and I got confidence and I became a better singer and I learned about the arts and how to be, you know, solid gay man. But then Also this late 40s, early 50s, man was telling a 16 year old boy, you're so smart for your age. You're so mature for your age. And then at 17, I had a dream about you. Things like that.

[John Wascavage]

Yeah. Okay, cool.

[Matt Koplik]

You know, textbook, truly textbook guys. If you're 14 and someone over 20 tells you that you're so interesting, you're not.

[John Wascavage]

Sorry, babes, I don't know. So sorry, babes.

[Matt Koplik]

I really don't know how to tell anyone this. Unless you've had a massive trauma happen to you, you don't turn interesting until you're at least 25.

[John Wascavage]

Oh, my gosh. Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

Not.

[John Wascavage]

Not at all.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah. And I'm being generous with 25.

[John Wascavage]

Honey. Yeah, please.

[Matt Koplik]

1968, 25. Maybe 20. 24 or 25. Probably not.

[John Wascavage]

Yeah. You are like a. What is it? Like a Nestle house cookie. Just like One slice after the other. No, pre sliced.

[Matt Koplik]

Pre sliced.

[John Wascavage]

Just put. Ready to. Ready to bake. Easy Baked oven easy.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah. That is, I think, the best way to describe someone younger than 25. Sweetheart, you're an easy baker.

[John Wascavage]

Yeah. Honestly. Yeah. You're not. You're not even 10 minutes. You're eight minutes exactly.

[Matt Koplik]

You're. You are a brownie in a mug.

[John Wascavage]

You're a mug cake.

[Matt Koplik]

You're a mug.

[John Wascavage]

Oh, my God.

[Matt Koplik]

You're a mug cake.

[John Wascavage]

That is legit. You are a mug cake.

[Matt Koplik]

Three minutes in the microwave.

[John Wascavage]

You have. You have a lot of the ingredients, but you're just kind of haphazardly thrown together and just kind of in a pinch and you're.

[Matt Koplik]

And you're sitting here looking at the men and boys in the band who are seven layer cakes and calling them problematic. Question mark.

[John Wascavage]

Jeez Louise.

[Matt Koplik]

So let's get back to those problematic seven.

[John Wascavage]

Let's get back to these seven.

[Matt Koplik]

As Alan's about to leave, that is when Michael fully turns.

[John Wascavage]

Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

And decides to do a game.

[John Wascavage]

Yes.

[Matt Koplik]

What is the game, John?

[John Wascavage]

The game is telephone. But it wasted the game's telephone honeys. The game is telephone, but it is a very specific, how you want to say, catty trauma based version of telephone that I was unfamiliar with that I do that. He was coming up with that on the spot, probably. But basically he comes up with this kind of like, let's just say it, like Jigsaw type. Like, let's play a game. Or is that Scream?

[Matt Koplik]

I don't watch Scream is Let's play a game. But Jigsaw, I think is a similar thing. But Scream is the one with the telephone.

[John Wascavage]

Okay. Okay.

[Matt Koplik]

You've never seen Scream.

[John Wascavage]

I saw it once in college and I had nightmares. I liked it. I liked it.

[Matt Koplik]

Well, Scream, I always say my play is to rom coms what Scream is to horror movies.

[John Wascavage]

Movies.

[Matt Koplik]

It's people living out the genre while also knowing about the genre and deconstructing the genre.

[John Wascavage]

For sure.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah.

[John Wascavage]

Love that.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah. Which I feel like that's what my thing is. Right.

[John Wascavage]

Yeah, I would agree.

[Matt Koplik]

Notice how John didn't say it's good though, Please.

[John Wascavage]

You know, I've said it to you so many times, it's great. Matt, I'm looking at you right in the eye.

[Matt Koplik]

You really are.

[John Wascavage]

It's fabulous.

[Matt Koplik]

And now it's 10 pages shorter than the last time you read it.

[John Wascavage]

Honestly, it is tighter than you normally. I don't like things 10 shorter or anything.

[Matt Koplik]

No, but it's tighter than you were before you got Punched.

[John Wascavage]

Oh, honey, before I cleaned my vcr.

[Matt Koplik]

Before the. Before the cowboy got to you.

[John Wascavage]

Oh, gosh, I wish he was sweet. But so the game. His. His little jigsaw scream game is kind of like a point system. And so he says that what we're gonna do is you have to call the person that you have always loved.

[Matt Koplik]

Most in the world.

[John Wascavage]

Yeah, yeah. Like, just truly, like the person that is the pinnacle of love to you. You and tell them that you love them. But the points kind of come. Like, I believe you get one point for calling and they pick up. Yes. You get a second point if you say who you. Or if they pick up. Right. Because it could be another person who picks up, even if they call.

[Matt Koplik]

Exactly. Yeah. So you get a bonus point if the person you intended to talk to is the one who picks up.

[John Wascavage]

And then you get another point if.

[Matt Koplik]

You say your name.

[John Wascavage]

If you say your name. And then how do they get to 10?

[Matt Koplik]

Because it's. It's. So.

[John Wascavage]

I know five points is saying that you love.

[Matt Koplik]

So it's. It's one if they pick up an extra point if. Sorry, one if someone picks up an extra point if it's the person or. No, two extra points.

[John Wascavage]

I was saying. I was gonna say there was two. One of them was two. Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

So you get. You get one point if someone picks up, and then it's additional two if it's the person you want to call. You get another two if you say your name, and then five if you actually go through on the. I love you.

[John Wascavage]

Yes.

[Matt Koplik]

So I believe the first one to go is Bernard, who only gets as far as two points because he says he calls.

[John Wascavage]

And honestly, I found this one to be this moment to be one of the most moving parts of the movie and of the play, because for other reasons that we've kind of talked about, at least in the movie, I had. I did feel that Berner's part was a little bit underdeveloped. But in this moment, you really got to kind of see more of who he is, where he came from. And honestly, I don't want to say this. I feel that especially with his character. Like, I forgot I was gonna say.

[Matt Koplik]

So with Bernard, the person he calls is the son of the family his mother worked for, which in turn, Bernard kind of worked for.

[John Wascavage]

Worked for as well.

[Matt Koplik]

Yes. Because Bernard is from the South, I think. Virginia, I believe. So around that area. Exactly. And the story goes, it was this. He was in love with the son of the family and lived on the property with them. And when they were teenagers.

[John Wascavage]

Yes, yes, yes, yes. And they kind of, like, alluded to this a lot in the play earlier. But, like, especially in this time, it was very common and, like, in a lot of these gay men's journeys to be a part of the. Like, I was so drunk, I don't remember what I did last night. Yeah. And so I believe the story is that, like, they got drunk at a party and had sex.

[Matt Koplik]

Yes.

[John Wascavage]

But then he.

[Matt Koplik]

The next day, he pretended like nothing happened.

[John Wascavage]

Yeah. And I think that's what I was trying to say was I was like. I felt like. Because Emerie's story I also found very moving. But I think what was so beautiful about Bernard's is that, like, he was the one who kind of really took that idea that they've thrown out the whole time as kind of being, like, a bit of a joke or a jab and really explored the kind of really sad, tragic part that a lot of gay people have experienced with that and, like, the reality of loving someone so much. And the next day, all they can say is, I don't even remember.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah, well, it's okay. So the God, was I drunk last night syndrome, which is introduced by Michael in the first act in a jokey manner, because it's in a conversation, and I think it's even before Bernard got there. I can't remember. But it's them talking about how they all sort of came out, or rather say when Alan is. When it's. When it is said to the group that Alan is coming.

[John Wascavage]

Yes.

[Matt Koplik]

And they say, how can he not know you're gay?

[John Wascavage]

Oh.

[Matt Koplik]

And he says, well, I wasn't out in college. And Donald's like, well, you and I fucked when you were in college. That's how we met. And he goes, well, I was. No, I was in the God, was I drunk last night phase. Which we find out that Michael's other friend Justin, who knew Ellen, was doing the same thing. But, like, Michael would go to New York, Justin would go to Boston.

[John Wascavage]

Right.

[Matt Koplik]

And it was the. And the idea is, like, he goes, yes, damn.

[John Wascavage]

It was so expensive to be gay that, I mean, just having to buy all these bus train tickets just.

[Matt Koplik]

I guess. But also, you know, those tickets were not as expensive back then. Listen, the top ticket price for boys in the band when became a huge hit was $10 for the first four rows. And they were. And they were. And they said, like, no one's gonna pay for that.

[John Wascavage]

Oh, my God.

[Matt Koplik]

They fully did.

[John Wascavage]

Oh, my God.

[Matt Koplik]

I know. No, I think, like, the top ticket price On Broadway at that point in 1968 was like, 35 bucks. And that was for hello Dolly. Maybe even. Maybe not even that.

[John Wascavage]

Jesus Christ.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah, it was. Ms. Ion is notorious for being the first Broadway show to $100, and that was 1991. So think about, you know, 24 years.

[John Wascavage]

Earlier, to quote Delta work. Jesus Christ, I feel sick.

[Matt Koplik]

I feel sick. But, yeah, but Michael says, you know, you were drunk. That part is true. But you do remember what happened.

[John Wascavage]

Yes.

[Matt Koplik]

And you don't do these things out of you go. Sometimes it's out of curiosity that you're getting drunk and exploring, or it's because you really want to and you need the liquid courage.

[John Wascavage]

Right.

[Matt Koplik]

And so for someone like Michael and Donald and Justin, they do it, and they do it consistently in college to sort of build up the nerve to eventually do it without the alcohol.

[John Wascavage]

Right.

[Matt Koplik]

And we later find out with Hank, it's a similar thing, although without alcohol. But yes, as you said, with Bernard, it was the drunk. It wasn't a way to. To corner this boy and get him alone. It was just, as circumstances happened, they were drunk at a party, and then they went back to the property, had sex, and then went skinny dipping after that.

[John Wascavage]

I was gonna say, I thought it was like, in a pool house or something.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah, something like that. Which I think is an important detail because the sex itself didn't, like, turn him off immediately. Exactly.

[John Wascavage]

He didn't, like, run.

[Matt Koplik]

They still spent the rest of the night together.

[John Wascavage]

Yes.

[Matt Koplik]

And they were totally alone. And it's this really powerful story for me. It reminds me a lot of the predatory WASP of the Palisades is out to get us from Sufian Stevens, Illinois, which I went on in depth on the Tonys episode. So I won't talk about it too much again, guys. But in case you did miss it, that is a song that Sufjan wrote about his own adolescence of being in love with his friend and the joy of that young love when it's all separate from all the rest of the world, for sure. And the oppression from society and the closet and religion and everyone around you can get to you. And ultimately, Sufian chose love, and his friend chose. I don't call it cowardice, but chose the pressure and. Or couldn't take the pressure and just ran away. I mean, that's literally the lyric. He ran away. And with Bernard and this other boy, it's sort of Bernard wanted to choose the love, and the boy chose what was easy, which was conforming and being in the norm. And yeah, as you said, the next morning, they talked about, like, on. Then. They said, and what's worse is you had to serve him his breakfast the next day. And he goes. And he goes, yeah. And I was terrified all day of what he was gonna do. He goes. He just treated me like it was any other day. Which is worse.

[John Wascavage]

It's horrible.

[Matt Koplik]

I will. So I'll say this. People have asked a lot about Bub, which is the name of the person who my play is based off of. And they've asked, like, have you. You run into each other. What will you do if you run into each other? And I always say the worst thing that could happen is if he's. If we see each other. And he acts like not either. As if nothing ever happened. Like, he doesn't know me or says hi to me in the most pleasant of manners, like, there's no story, no baggage. Because then. Because that is worse.

[John Wascavage]

Right.

[Matt Koplik]

And that is what happens to Bernard. Like, you have to share this special moment and then just be like, thank you for the paper, Bernard.

[John Wascavage]

Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

Not even cold. Just like. Not even like, oh, that we should. That was a mistake. Let's never talk about it. Not violent or anything. Just like you're living in the Matrix or something.

[John Wascavage]

Right. And I think, if I'm remembering correctly, he is the only character who calls someone who. Someone else picks up. The boy's mother picks up. Yes.

[Matt Koplik]

It's. It's. It's.

[John Wascavage]

Or the love is. Whatever you want to call them.

[Matt Koplik]

I mean, if we're. If we're being. If we're talking about chapters, it's technically five people who call, but really it's four chapters of calling.

[John Wascavage]

Right.

[Matt Koplik]

The first chapter is Bernard, who calls someone else, picks up, says his name, doesn't say the message. Second one is Emery, who calls. The actual person picks up.

[John Wascavage]

Right.

[Matt Koplik]

Emery says his name and doesn't get the chance to say the message they get hung up on. And then it's Larry, Hank, which we'll get to. And then it's Alan.

[John Wascavage]

Right.

[Matt Koplik]

But it's.

[John Wascavage]

It.

[Matt Koplik]

The point system, Progressives. Yeah. Bernard is the only one who doesn't ever get to actually speak to the person.

[John Wascavage]

Yeah. So he ends up. Instead of saying, I love you, he ends up saying. Because I believe another kind of impetus as to why he also wanted to call was that this man is now divorcing from his wife.

[Matt Koplik]

His third wife.

[John Wascavage]

Oh, his third. Yes, yes, yes, yes, yes. Third wife. Which, you know, read between the lines. The subtext. Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

But like.

[John Wascavage]

Yeah. Instead he ends up saying, you know, just Tell him that I'm sorry I heard about his wife, and I just wanted to say that I was sorry.

[Matt Koplik]

Actually, wait. There's another great moment.

[John Wascavage]

Oh, fuck.

[Matt Koplik]

Sorry. This is giving me chills. Which shows you the true kinship between Emery and Bernard, because at this point, also, then Bernard gets very drunk, and by the end of the play, Emery is one who takes him home.

[John Wascavage]

Right? Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

But when Bernard gets on the phone and calls, and it's the guy's mother, and I forget Bernard's mother's name, but let's call her, I don't know, Bernice.

[John Wascavage]

Yes.

[Matt Koplik]

Bernard and Bernice.

[John Wascavage]

Yeah, Bernard and Bernice.

[Matt Koplik]

And he gets on the phone, he goes, Hi. Oh, oh, Mrs. Johnson. And he goes. And he goes. And he says, this is Bernard, Bernice's boy. And Emery goes, son, not boy.

[John Wascavage]

Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

Because Bernard retreats back to him, as I say.

[John Wascavage]

Yeah. Regresses.

[Matt Koplik]

And Emery's like, no, you're not her boy. You're her son.

[John Wascavage]

Yeah. Which has. I mean, a lot of. Especially with. With Bernard being a man of color has a lot of different, like, layers to it.

[Matt Koplik]

Oh, no, absolutely. You know, that was what I was getting at. Like, not just the Southern culture, but also the racial element. And Emery saying that isn't. Emery's not saying that. Unaware of the racial element. He's very aware. Emery does not make the jokes he makes to Bernard if he isn't aware of the racial stuff. It is the unspoken agreement they have of the buttons they press and knowing exactly where the line is and, like, leaning into the stereotypes. Yeah. It's. It's RuPaul being okay with the watermelon joke and Dieteritz not.

[John Wascavage]

Right.

[Matt Koplik]

But. But Emery knows that Bernard is okay if it's from him, or rather. Rather say, tolerates it from him. It's. There. It. I've. I've said to my friends, my love language is cunt. And it's, you know, if I'm kind to you immediately or say if I'm nice to you immediately, it's because I know we don't have that trust yet.

[John Wascavage]

Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

I think I'm a kind person. Oh, yeah. But, like, I'm not just gonna be placatingly sweet when I start making jabs. That's how you should know that you're in my inner circle.

[John Wascavage]

Oh, 100%. Yeah. Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

That's how I knew that I'll never be in yours, because. I'm sorry. This is our own boys in the band right here.

[John Wascavage]

I know.

[Matt Koplik]

Honestly, I'm loving every single.

[John Wascavage]

We are the band. We Are the boys.

[Matt Koplik]

Well, you know how the title came to be?

[John Wascavage]

I do tell the listeners it is a reference to the Judy Garland, A Star Is Born. Where. I don't know which character, but it's her husband, right.

[Matt Koplik]

James Mason.

[John Wascavage]

Yeah. So that guy.

[Matt Koplik]

You know, her.

[John Wascavage]

Her. So she tells Judy, she goes, no, you're singing for yourself, and you're singing for the boys in the band. And so. And it's interesting, I didn't put together the Stonewall thing until you brought it up earlier. And, like, literally, as you were saying, it, like, clicked into focus. But I was like, oh, that's so interesting that, like, literally, Judy was like, not bookends, but, I mean, happens in between the play premiering, you know, her Death and Stonewall, etc. And then the movie premiering.

[Matt Koplik]

But Judy Garland's probably greatest triumph since wizard of Oz is that Star Is Born, which is what inspires the title for the boys in the band. And then Stonewall happens, which is not because of Judy Garland's death, which has always been, like, the legend.

[John Wascavage]

Yes.

[Matt Koplik]

But it is sort of the straw that broke the camel's back that night, which everyone talks about. They were in mourning. They wanted to pay tribute to her. She meant so much to them. And then. And that's when they got raided. And they're like, no, not tonight.

[John Wascavage]

Right? Yeah, not on our holy ground.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah, not on our holy ground. Not on the night. We're, like, honoring the mother. Yeah. Like, yeah, you, like, kindly fuck off. Yeah, not kindly.

[John Wascavage]

Literally.

[Matt Koplik]

So that is Bernard's phone call. Who is Emerie's phone call.

[John Wascavage]

Emerie's phone call is to. And I'm gonna ask you to help me with the dentist's name, because it is such a fantastic name.

[Matt Koplik]

It is.

[John Wascavage]

Like, there are certain names in the zeitgeist of writing and love. I like film, theater, tv, where you hear a name and you're like, God, I love that name. Is it Delbert?

[Matt Koplik]

I think it's Delbert, yeah. Because then he calls him Deli on the phone.

[John Wascavage]

Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

Delbert Botts. Delbert Botz. B, O, T, Z, B, O, T, T, S, B, O, T, T, S. And someone said, how could anyone. Dm DTM how could. DDS how could. How could you. How. How could you love anybody with a name like that? Yes. Emory. You couldn't love anybody with a name like that. It wouldn't look good on a place code card. And then Emery says, I admit his name is not so good, but he is absolutely beautiful. At least he was when I was in high school.

[John Wascavage]

Yes.

[Matt Koplik]

God, it's so good.

[John Wascavage]

So Delbert Botts was a boy that I. I believe went to the same high school as. As Emory, but was seven years older.

[Matt Koplik]

I know for sure.

[John Wascavage]

So I. That's the thing that was a little unclear.

[Matt Koplik]

And a girl in his class was. Louise was the one who was going with him.

[John Wascavage]

Yes. Yeah. And so Emory, the kind of, like, backstory is that Emory goes to Delbert to get his, like, teeth cleaned and has this, like, really funny story about how, like, the whole time he just, like, was staring at him while his fingers were in his mouth, which. I mean, the gay experience. Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

When someone has their fingers in my mouth, I. Well, I guess where else can I look?

[John Wascavage]

Yeah. But at that it's rude to look away.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah. When someone does the courtesy of sticking their phalanges in your orifice 100%, you look them in the eyes until they are done and you say. You say thank you. Until they are finished with you.

[John Wascavage]

Yes.

[Matt Koplik]

Until they have completed the play in your mouth.

[John Wascavage]

Dear God.

[Matt Koplik]

Until the dance of. The dance of their fingers, of their tentacles is complete.

[John Wascavage]

Until the dance of the vampires is closed in your mouth.

[Matt Koplik]

My life is a cucumber. My life is a courgette.

[John Wascavage]

I don't know what that means.

[Matt Koplik]

It's an animated film. My life is a courgette.

[John Wascavage]

Oh, yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

Don't worry about it.

[John Wascavage]

I love that there are so many.

[Matt Koplik]

References in this play that no one gets that I don't get. I feel like the same way with this podcast. And, like, sometimes I just say things.

[John Wascavage]

Oh, girl. Same.

[Matt Koplik]

I have pop culture Tourette's. You don't always have to acknowledge what it is I'm quoting or saying.

[John Wascavage]

Just like, I just have to say it medically. Like, medically I have to say it.

[Matt Koplik]

I do. Riri Zellweger.

[John Wascavage]

Riri Zel Zell. But so, yes, he is in love with Delbert. And then I believe. I don't know how much later, but like, basically Emerie is like, I loved him so much that he went out and bought him a gold plated cigarette case that he gets engraved. Engraved. Thank you.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah.

[John Wascavage]

Such a hard time coming from that word.

[Matt Koplik]

It's either two Delbert or two Dr. Botts from your friend Emery.

[John Wascavage]

Yes. And then he like, what was that before or after? I think maybe what happens before is that he. I don't know if it's like an attempt to, like, try to tell him that he loves him or whatnot, but basically Emery ends up asking Delbert to, like, be his Friend. Yeah, because I think, like, you know, like this is something that, like, I think is a very universal gay experience of loving someone who is not gay, where it's like you love them so much that like, you are so heartbroken that they probably won't love you back. But it's like there, there are certain cases where it's like, at least if I have them as a friend, they're in my life and I get, I get to be close to them.

[Matt Koplik]

Well, because it's somewhere and have their.

[John Wascavage]

Fingers in my tongue.

[Matt Koplik]

To paraphrase the poet laureate Carrie Bradshaw from Sex and the City, it's a place for the love to go.

[John Wascavage]

Love that. Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

Because she's. I mean, she talks about this with Big at the end of season two. And that's how Big died and that's how. And just like that Big died. But it's that part in season two when Big is now with Natasha and they're all like sitting around talking about their exes. Miranda can't talk to Steve or anything like that. And Carrie has, she has a very, I would say, potent question for Carrie, at least, where she's like, you love someone and then you break up. Where does the love go? And some people, you know, the experience just gets so bad that the love does turn to hate. Because that's equally passionate responses sometimes, like it just doesn't work out or you're just not a match. And it's like, well, where does the love go? And for Emery, it's. I love him and I know he doesn't love me, but the love can go. I can put my love in a friendship.

[John Wascavage]

Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

And because his love is so powerful, he oversteps by doing that kind of a gift, which is not something you do.

[John Wascavage]

No.

[Matt Koplik]

For a straight friend. Especially when this guy probably said, yeah, I'll be your friend. Sort of like half assedly.

[John Wascavage]

Yeah. You know, like there was definitely a part of me that like was thinking, especially if he is coming to him for medical work, like, you know, or dentistry, that like, he probably was like, yeah, I'll be your friend. Cause like, yeah, I'm gonna. This is a patient, you know this. But so, yes, he gets this very extravagant gift for Delbert, gives it to him and the whole kind of like friend conversation happens. And then Louise, or Luis, whatever her name is, who is at Emory school as they were getting ready for the prom. Yeah. Because there's a whole thing about like, leave it to a fairy to turn like cardboard stars into something magical. There's like some kind of line like.

[Matt Koplik]

That, it says, oh, Mary, leave it to a fairy to turn something. Something beautiful.

[John Wascavage]

Yeah. And at the, like, prom, or at the prom committee, as they're, like, decorating, basically, Luisa tells the story to everyone, and Emery becomes a laughingstock over the fact that, like, he has this, like, crush on Delbert.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah. He says that everyone Knew I asked Dr. Delbert to Dr. Botts to be my friend.

[John Wascavage]

Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

It goes. But they did not know that I loved him.

[John Wascavage]

Yeah. Which I thought was a really interesting and, like, beautiful line, too, because it's like there was. There is that distinction of, like, they were making fun of him, obviously, because of the connotation and being, you know, being queer or the, you know, I'm sure someone like Emery, it was kind of a glass closet type situation, or I would assume it was kind of a glass gadget type situation. But there's something, like, so beautiful about her. Like, they. Or something universal to the, like, gay experience, where it's like they were mocking him and being like, oh, you have a crash. But it's like, in actuality, it's. It was so much like their closed minds couldn't even begin to fathom how deep it actually went. It's like, oh, you silly geese. It wasn't a crush. I loved him. And so I found that very moving. But so he does call Dr. Delbert. Dr. Delbert picks up. So he gets a bunch of points. And then I believe Emery is kind of just, like, drunk enough or too drunk that he just kind of. Of goes on this. And again, the actor's performance, I thought was really beautiful in the movie, where he kind of goes on this little reoccurrence of the speech of, like, it's just a friend and it's a friend calling and I want you to be a friend. And, like, Dr. Delber just hangs up, thinking it's just some, like, weird drunk person. Because he never says I love you to him.

[Matt Koplik]

He doesn't. He says his name and. Or does he say his name?

[John Wascavage]

I can't.

[Matt Koplik]

I think he says his name.

[John Wascavage]

I don't actually think he does. I think he just says a friend.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah. And he's like, you wouldn't remember me. I'm.

[John Wascavage]

Yes, yes, yes, yes.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah. And that is that. Yeah. That is the sadness of Emory is that, you know, he's going to. Because he says the story, and it's very beautiful. And it's not.

[John Wascavage]

As.

[Matt Koplik]

For me, it's not as tragic as Bernard's.

[John Wascavage]

No, no, no.

[Matt Koplik]

But it. There is a sadness to it. And then someone says like, oh, his like cowardly side, himself won't do it. And that. And Emery sort of snaps to and he's like, I'm not a coward and I'm gonna prove it to you. Because Emery has been the bravest of all of them the whole time. Has been very much himself, has nothing to apologize for, has no hidden agendas about anything.

[John Wascavage]

100.

[Matt Koplik]

And you know, of course, like has judgments about people in the sense of, you know, I think that there's a. That there's a way to live life and it's to be free. And if you're not being free, what the fuck are you doing?

[John Wascavage]

But he also gets arguably the best gift. I mean, a hooker for your birthday. He gets a hot hooker and he feeds them. I mean, we're not gonna ask for anything more.

[Matt Koplik]

Truly. Well, yeah, no. He shows up with food that he's made. He puts the effort in, he puts in the work and he thinks outside the box for sure. Because everyone else gets Harold gifts that are nice. You know, Larry gets him a blow up photograph that Harold can't wait to put on his wall. Michael's gift is funny because it is so classical, it's so classic actor. But yet apparently there's something about it that actually makes it special, which we don't know.

[John Wascavage]

Yeah. Which I also love because he gets.

[Matt Koplik]

Him a photo of himself.

[John Wascavage]

Yeah. I mean, literally, Jack McFarland 101.

[Matt Koplik]

Exactly.

[John Wascavage]

Like, I thought it was gonna end it there. But then Harold gets very moved by the inscription on the frame. But yeah, we never find out what it is.

[Matt Koplik]

We don't.

[John Wascavage]

I love shit like that.

[Matt Koplik]

Oh, absolutely.

[John Wascavage]

I love when the characters have secrets that we just never get to know.

[Matt Koplik]

And there's a lot of that actually in this play because we will talk about Alan a bit more in a minute. But I even wonder if the photo of Michael is like a snapshot from a day they had or if it's like.

[John Wascavage]

Like a.

[Matt Koplik]

Because you think it's like a headshot or something. A glamour shot. And then I feel like it actually is a photo from a memory of theirs.

[John Wascavage]

I don't know.

[Matt Koplik]

I don't know. I don't know. It's like when I think Charlie, Charlie or Nick gives the other one that photo of them in the. In the snow.

[John Wascavage]

Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

And it's before they're together and it's like. It's a. I liked that day a lot. And it's like, okay, gay, gay, gay, gay. You're all gay. Make it nice around the Tree. So then Emery's guy hangs up, as he said, because he's like, whatever. Then we get to Larry. Untank, Larry.

[John Wascavage]

Untank.

[Matt Koplik]

Yes. And Larry assumes that Hank was gonna call his wife. Probably his ex or soon to be ex wife.

[John Wascavage]

Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

And Hank sort of snaps back at Larry and says, oh, are you gonna call, like. I think he says, Jonathan. They have a code name for all the men that Larry has hooked up with.

[John Wascavage]

Yeah. Oh, God, yeah. It's not Jonathan, but it's something like.

[Matt Koplik]

That, isn't it, Jeremy? It's something like that.

[John Wascavage]

Some goddess, gay name.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah, you know, butt boy, things like that.

[John Wascavage]

Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

Pool boy.

[John Wascavage]

Pool boy.

[Matt Koplik]

Poor boy.

[John Wascavage]

Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

Hank's basically saying to Larry, like, you could call a million men, right? And Hank leaves a message for their answering service to. To call their apartment when Larry gets home and says, tell Larry I love him. And the telephone operator makes him repeat himself. He goes, no, I didn't misspeak. That's what I want. And then Hank and Larry have a sort of come to Jesus moment with each other where they truly do. It's not a matter of whether they have fully compromised, but they both have taken a step forward. What that step forward is, we'll talk about in just a second because, John, guess what we gotta do?

[John Wascavage]

We gotta take a break.

[Matt Koplik]

Billy, I beg to differ with you.

[John Wascavage]

How do you mean?

[Matt Koplik]

You're the top.

[John Wascavage]

Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

You're an arrow collar. You're the top. You're a Coolidge dollar. You're the nimble tread of the feet of Freddy. And we're back.

[John Wascavage]

Yes.

[Matt Koplik]

So we mentioned this before with Larry and Hank. Hank was married to a woman and then left his wife for Larry. Larry prefers to be open. Yes, but he also has limitations to his openness. For example, Hank didn't want to hook up with other men, but he was willing to, in his words, compromise.

[John Wascavage]

Yes. With a menage.

[Matt Koplik]

Yes. A Minaj. 2's company, 3 is a Minaj because the cowboy doesn't know what it means.

[John Wascavage]

I was gonna say, George. The cowboy is truly just like what? And I loved.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah, It's.

[John Wascavage]

It reminded me of like. Do you remember the first time you heard someone say menage a trois and you were like a woman?

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah. Actually, you know what? I don't have a memory of that. I'm sure I had that moment. I have an exact memory of when I learned what jerking off or what jacking off meant.

[John Wascavage]

Oh, yes.

[Matt Koplik]

It was.

[John Wascavage]

Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

God, I hate myself. It was Hebrew school.

[John Wascavage]

Oh, dear God.

[Matt Koplik]

I know. There you go. Right we were on the bus. We had. We never had field trips in Hebrew school. I don't know why we had this field trip. I remember we were on a bus going into the city for a field trip for something. I was at the back of the bus, truly, just, like, minding my own business, because I hated Hebrew school. I didn't like anyone there. It was.

[John Wascavage]

Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

And I wasn't picked on or anything. I was just like, I don't like any of this. But the boys were sitting around, and one of them turned to me because we were 12 at this point, so some of them had started to go through puberty, and they're like, cop. Like, you jack off. And I went, what does that mean? And they went, jack off. Really? And then he started putting his hand, like, towards his thigh and, like, doing a slapping sound. And I was like. I literally said, do I hit myself? Is that what you're asking me? And like, cop. Look, are you serious right now? I don't know what you mean. I knew what masturbation was, but I didn't know that term. And I was like, the fuck? What are you like. Use your words. Water, Helen. What? And then finally, I think one of the girls told me later on, they're like, ah, it's a dumb boy term for masturbation. I was like, oh. They could have just said that ironically.

[John Wascavage]

Water, Helen, is how I learned how to masturbate. I was trying to. I was trying to tell someone I needed water. Well, something got wet. Yeah. And you know, Oops. Oopsie daisy.

[Matt Koplik]

You and Helen Keller fucking soaked at the end of that.

[John Wascavage]

Oh, Jesus Christ.

[Matt Koplik]

Watercolor.

[John Wascavage]

This episode is brought to you by soaking.

[Matt Koplik]

This episode brought to you by Super Soaker. Helen. Water.

[John Wascavage]

I don't know when I learned what. What jacking off was. Maybe today. Maybe I learned today.

[Matt Koplik]

I'm here to teach the children. And by children, I mean you. All this. All the silly people. Maybe that should be my new term for the listeners, because I call them uncultured fucks. Or, you know, theater lovers. Both Adam Proudnot and the DL. Should we call each other silly people?

[John Wascavage]

Yes.

[Matt Koplik]

Hello, all my silly people.

[John Wascavage]

You silly people.

[Matt Koplik]

Silly people. Why is there an ESP in the word lisp? That just seems cruel.

[John Wascavage]

It's cruel. Brilliant.

[Matt Koplik]

And so, yeah, Hank. Hank wants a Minaj, which.

[John Wascavage]

That's like his compromise.

[Matt Koplik]

He's like.

[John Wascavage]

I mean, it's. It's the modern or it's the 70s version of we only play together. We don't play separate. We play together, which.

[Matt Koplik]

So, okay, John Obviously do not explain your life and your time with your partner, Adam. But I'm sure you've had to explain openness to people before, even, even out of yours. But like other people's.

[John Wascavage]

Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

I have had so many friends, like friends of our generation. We're on the, of the straight persuasion. And like, explain to me openness. How does that work? Like, what do you mean? They're like, how can they, how can people do it? And I had to say, well, you know, there's no set rule to it. Every couple has their own version of it.

[John Wascavage]

Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

So like, some people are the Larry's of the world for the like, who say, like, let's just fuck other people when it happens when we can. Like, you are my person.

[John Wascavage]

Right.

[Matt Koplik]

I won't tell you, but if you ask, I'm not gonna lie.

[John Wascavage]

Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

So only ask if you want to know. But also know that like, you are who I'm committed to. Or you can be a Hank who's like, well, no, we, like, we, we incorporate other people who are guest stars, but like, we are the couple and then you have people who have other versions of it or not at all. And it's just always. I don't know, it's. I, I don't. I like being a teacher about theater, not about sexuality, because I ain't no expert.

[John Wascavage]

Sure. Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

But I don't know, have you had experiences like that where you've had to out with friends and all of a sudden you're like, I have to talk to about this right now.

[John Wascavage]

Honestly, like kind of, but not, not really. I'm trying to think of like one of the first, like open couples that I knew were actually were a straight couple. Oh, fascinating. Well, it was a heterosexual couple. The one member of the couple now, I believe actually identifies as non binary and might potentially be a lesbian or.

[Matt Koplik]

They'Re at least bisexual also. Is that couple still together?

[John Wascavage]

No. Okay. No, they're not. And so, yeah, ironically, like one of my first, of course. I mean, I know a lot of gay people, so of course I like new people who have been open as well. But yeah, one of my first, like actual, like close friends that were open was a straight couple. So it kind of was like, weird. It's kind of the opposite of the gay experience. I feel like normally is the opposite because like, in this case it was me asking questions, being like, oh, how do you do it? What is it? Explain it to me. I mean, granted this was like, Dear God, like 2015, so nine years ago.

[Matt Koplik]

You were a sensible 74.

[John Wascavage]

Yeah. I was a sensible 82. But I, dear God, I, I, I'm like an, you know, us, Angela Lansbury's who have been 70 since we've been 20.

[Matt Koplik]

Truly. But, but so I, so I only say this because all the straight couples I know who have done openness have never made it to the finish line.

[John Wascavage]

Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

And some queer couples as well. But I do know queer couples that are open, that have been together for very, very long time. Same the ones that I've spoken to about it. They always say that, that openness is a communication situation, which isn't like we tell each other everything so much as we check in with each other about how we're feeling about it. And if there's something we want to change, if we want to close it off for a while, if we want to just have a guest star, if, you know, we're allowed to do whatever, it's, it's always shifting because who you are as a person and what your wants and needs are continue to change.

[John Wascavage]

Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

And how you feel about your partner will change and who they are to you will change.

[John Wascavage]

Yep.

[Matt Koplik]

And so that, and, and, and sex is something that, you know, it's obviously important part of life, but there are so many things you can get from someone that if maybe the sex is the only thing you don't have, but everything else is there. It's like, well, why, why give that part up? And so with Hank and Larry, I bring it back to them because I feel like the conversation they finally get to is actually a very healthy one.

[John Wascavage]

Yeah, I agree. I was quite shocked at how healthy it was for the 70s. Yeah. You know, especially, especially considering that in a lot of ways openness does feel like a newer thing.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah. And Larry's almost vilified. He's not almost. He is vilified by Hank and a couple of people about his openness and oh, you fucked Donald. Like, you slut. And how dare you. And Larry is very transparent about, this is who I am, this is how I feel about my sexuality. And he's also like, like the sexual revolution is happening already in America by this point in the 60s. Not with the queer community. That doesn't happen post Stonewall.

[John Wascavage]

Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

And in fact, if you read or watch the Normal Heart, that's something that Larry Kramer was very open about of. Like why it was so hard to contain the AIDS epidemic because when they finally realized it was transmitted via sex, a lot of gay men refused to stop having sex or be careful because they're like, no, we Fought so hard for our right. This is like our right. But that's a. That's another day for another show.

[John Wascavage]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

But Larry is like, I. I went through what I went through to be where I am, and this is what I like. And I don't want to give that up. And I love you, but don't make me give this up. And Hank still comes from that heteronormative thinking of sex is with the person you love and it's only that and everything is. You know, he wants to be with a man, but in the lifestyle that he.

[John Wascavage]

Yeah, that he knew. In the heteronormative lifestyle.

[Matt Koplik]

Exactly. And also I think it's important to realize from. From what I recall from the play, Hank's first real sexual experience with a man was a one night stand, or rather say like one time hookup at, like in a bathroom at Grand Central. Yeah, it was. He had come into the city for a teacher's convention. His wife didn't want to go, and he went to the bathroom, I guess like locked eyes with someone and just went for it.

[John Wascavage]

You know what? I actually had a moment where I thought the twist up of the play or I thought a twist of the play was going to be that Alan was the guy in Grant film.

[Matt Koplik]

That would have been fun.

[John Wascavage]

Yeah. And I mean, it's definitely like a theory that is just a John specific theory because I'm like, oh, that would be really interesting. And especially the way that like Alan and Hank are connected in how they have lived their lives. Yeah. I had a. I think subtextually there is like almost something there in the movie. But again, that could just be me picking up a lot of different things. Yeah. I don't think it actually is a thing, but in my mind I was like, oh, gosh, I bet that's where this is going.

[Matt Koplik]

Well, so the original stage director, Robert Moore, because William Friedkin did the movie. And the reason for that is because Mark Crowley refused to not have the original cast do the movie. And the studio said, yeah, great. And the studio was like, if you want that, you can't have Robert Moore direct it. Like we draw the line there. You need someone who's made a movie before. And so they went with Friedkin. And Friedkin was a wonderful director. Did French Connection, the Exorcist, and it's.

[John Wascavage]

The Friedkin weekend, baby.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah. Did he also do Cruising, the Al Pacino movie?

[John Wascavage]

No. And you know what? That's another one that's been on my list for a long time. I've never actually seen it, but I also know it's just like. So talk about problematic. That one is, like, insanely problematic. So. So that's. I love that.

[Matt Koplik]

No, it absolutely is.

[John Wascavage]

I don't know if he did.

[Matt Koplik]

Is it Brian De Palma? Maybe.

[John Wascavage]

I'm not sure I want to look this up.

[Matt Koplik]

Who directed Cruising? No, it was William Friedkin. So that's. It's fascinating. That. And it's like 10 years apart, so to have Friedkin do Boys in the Band and then Cruising, both of which have their, you know, their backlash. But I think in retrospect, we look back at the two and like, Cruising is the movie that still does not, like, age well in any kind of way. It still has that problematic stigma. And I think Boys in the Band is very much a film that I think Friedkin can look back on and be like, no, I think that one we did a really nice job with. But Robert Moore had told the actor playing Alan, you decide if Alan is gay or straight, if he's repressing homosexuality, or if he is just straight and something else is going on. And I think for every production, it tends to be up to the actor playing Alan. And I mean, I think I have a theory with Alan and we'll talk about that as. Once we get to the Allen phone call. Yeah, but the point of all of this is, Hank, you know, his first sexual experience, as far as we know, was with a man was a one night or one time thing at the. At the bathroom at Grand Central. And then he started doing it more after that. But they were all very sort of just physical urges. Nothing emotional. Yeah, And I think he wanted the emotional with Larry to prove that it was worth leaving his wife for. That it wasn't just this basic animal instinct of his. It's like, I can have the domestic life and my sexual appetite, you know, appeased in the same.

[John Wascavage]

I can fill a hole and fill the hole in my heart.

[Matt Koplik]

Exactly. Or as I said, I can have my cake and eat it out too.

[John Wascavage]

100%.

[Matt Koplik]

Yes. It says yes. That is a line in my play.

[John Wascavage]

Right.

[Matt Koplik]

I don't say eat out. He says, yeah, he can't have his cake and eat it too, but it.

[John Wascavage]

Should be eat it out too, because that is very. That's very clever.

[Matt Koplik]

Thank you.

[John Wascavage]

You.

[Matt Koplik]

I'm gonna. Okay, I'm gonna make sure.

[John Wascavage]

Make a note of that, Siri. Make a note of that.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah, well, because then Kennedy says, has he been eating your cake?

[John Wascavage]

And. Oh, yeah, but. But I like the joke. That's a good Joke. Yeah, it's a really good. I. I've never heard that before.

[Matt Koplik]

Okay, I'm gonna.

[John Wascavage]

I don't talk to a lot of people, but I've never heard that. I've never heard that before.

[Matt Koplik]

Okay, I'm gonna make sure to put that in the notes.

[John Wascavage]

I already.

[Matt Koplik]

I already sent the script out to. To Carlo and Tyler and then immediately made like a change after I sent it because I Me. But I'm still making that change, too. I will also say, by the way, my play is going to come up again later on in this episode when we talk about Harold's departure because of exactly what he says to Michael. And then his final line to Michael.

[John Wascavage]

I love his final line to Michael.

[Matt Koplik]

Because one of the questions a lot of people have is like, why are these people friends and you. And especially with Michael and Harold going, you know, I don't see the friendship. And we will talk about that.

[John Wascavage]

Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

But ultimately, Hank takes the phone, makes the phone call to Larry because Larry is convinced Hank's gonna probably call his ex wife or something. And then when he leaves the message for Larry, that is what blows up their come to Jesus moment. To which then Larry calls Michael's phone.

[John Wascavage]

Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

And says, hank, pick up. It's for you.

[John Wascavage]

Yeah. Which honestly, I was. Dramaturgically, I was like, could they do that? Do they have the technology?

[Matt Koplik]

I mean, I guess they could because they didn't.

[John Wascavage]

I guess so. But. But yeah, they.

[Matt Koplik]

Natalie would. They. Natalie could. And they. Natalie did.

[John Wascavage]

No. Very sweet moment. Like, yeah, they're. They're kind of. I mean, it's not a button because the play's not over, but their trajectory throughout the show, throughout the. Throughout the TV show, throughout the piece, throughout the piece was. Was really surprising. And like, again, like I said, said a little bit earlier, like, kind of the conversations that we're having and that they were having felt very modern and very ahead of its time. And in some ways, like with. Well, not in some ways, very clearly, they're the only ones who. Well, they win, don't they?

[Matt Koplik]

They do. They both win because they. Well, Alan also wins.

[John Wascavage]

Alan wins.

[Matt Koplik]

Hank. No, Hank doesn't win because Larry wasn't there to take the message. So Larry won and then Alan wins.

[John Wascavage]

It was a tie, but I just found it very moving. Like it was. You know, it's. Especially in a play that is very strongly based off of a lot of the faults, a lot of the issues of gay men having just that little bit of a glimpse into, like, we can figure out things in our own way. And we might not get it perfect, but we're just going to keep trying. Like, I found it very beautiful. I really, I was quite moved by that, by those beats.

[Matt Koplik]

And I'm glad you said that because remember that when we talk about the backlash with this play and what the narrative has been on it for a lot of people who have come out against it. Our final phone caller is Ellen.

[John Wascavage]

Oh, Ellen.

[Matt Koplik]

Ellen, if you will. No, that's not the truth, Alan.

[John Wascavage]

That's not the truth, Alan.

[Matt Koplik]

Michael insists that Alan call a specific person.

[John Wascavage]

Yes. So Michael kind of goes on this diatribe about how Justin, their the third friend of their, like, college trio, the one that we had mentioned, has been going to Boston to hook up while Michael was going to New York to hook up with men. Michael goes on this accusatory rant where he brings to light that Justin has informed him that Justin and Alan used to hook up in college and that. That I don't remember they were in love or someone. But. But basically it was like, this is the moment that Michael kind of tries to really get Alan's goat and try to be like, this is why you haven't left. This is why you stayed like you are one of us. Stop pretending. Call the person that you love and get your points, honey, come and get your points.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah, because he says he. And it's a back and forth. He said, Justin told me about the hookups. And I could see it even then. There was something you always would go on about like, yes, we were all friends, but you were so into Justin.

[John Wascavage]

Yes.

[Matt Koplik]

It was always about how amazing jealousy.

[John Wascavage]

Like even.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah, like, yeah, it's like wasn't even jealousy. It was like you were just going on. He was attractive. He had a good body. He was a good athlete. He was so smart. He was so kind. And Nowlin basically keeps being like he was all those things. He was like, he's like, no, it was deeper than that and you know it. And Michael was still in the closet and was actually dating the woman that Alan went on to marry. And Fran. Fran is Alan's wife. They have two daughters. Hank has two kids as well. That's what they bond over it. I love my kids. I'm like, congrats, baby. You made a fermented cum sock and you love it. Good for you.

[John Wascavage]

Congrats. I guess.

[Matt Koplik]

Congrats on not pulling out. But you had one job to do and you didn't do it. You just pull out. It's. It's. I do it at the gas station. All the time. So.

[John Wascavage]

But enough about scruff.

[Matt Koplik]

Enough about sniffies. So, yeah. So Michael keeps pestering Alan, saying, you love Justin. You were together. And Alan keeps going, no, no, no, Justin was in love with me.

[John Wascavage]

Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

He informed me of his feelings and I told him he disgusted me.

[John Wascavage]

Was disgusted by him.

[Matt Koplik]

And he's like. And I cut off communication. Michael goes, that's not true. Yeah, back and forth, back and forth, so you never know who's right. And Michael makes Allan call and he goes, if you're not going to call, I'm going to call. And he starts to call and Alan says, give me the phone. He dials and he says, it's me. I know you're surprised to hear from me. I just want you to know I'm in New York. I just want you to know I love you. And then Michael grabs the phone, says, did you hear that son of a bitch? And goes, what does he then say?

[John Wascavage]

I think Fran.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah. He goes, fran. Realizing that Alan has called his wife.

[John Wascavage]

I know. God. I mean, there was a part of me that knew that was coming, but I mean. I mean, that's how it's written. You're supposed to be kind of like 50, 50 split on who it's gonna be, but, God, is it, like, mortifying but satisfying and like, what a great moment.

[Matt Koplik]

It's less the shock that that's who Alan called and more watching White Gold.

[John Wascavage]

Exactly. Watching Michael just get sheer egg on his face. Watching this person who has, as the play progresses, truly does become like a monster. I guess I should have specified a bit more when I started talking about the game, that literally he is like. It does feel like Jigsaw. It is not a safe. It's not a safe space. No.

[Matt Koplik]

Well, so I think with Michael, and I'm going to borrow a phrase that was used to me by somebody that was a very. That I was in a situationship with. Whereas Michael keeps moving the goalposts because he starts off snarky and catty, but in a friendly way that we all are. And then he has one drink and it gets a little darker, but everyone sort of allows it. So the goalposts keep getting moved.

[John Wascavage]

Yeah, they just keep moving the line.

[Matt Koplik]

They just keep moving the line. And no one really retaliates when he gets this far because everyone's just sort of tired and drunk and in too deep and they all know each other. It's like. Like, what am I gonna do, cut you off? Like, you're friends with my friends. Like, I'm gonna see you Again, Yeah. And in a way, he sort of knows this. And the contempt he has for himself and for his friends is what's driving all of this. And it's. And he's just in a. He's in a blind rage. He has tunnel vision that all he can see is just the contempt. He can't see any of the love right now. And when it. It all turns on him. It all. It all first turns with Alan arriving and then it turns again with Alan's phone call. So him realizing no matter whatever the truth is about Alan, he did call someone he loves, which is his wife. And unclear exactly what Fran says on the phone, but it is implied that Alan had. That she and Alan had separated.

[John Wascavage]

Yes.

[Matt Koplik]

And him saying that I'm coming home. And I think she's like even thanking Michael on the phone. Again, you don't know for sure, but based off what Michael is saying, it sounds like she's thanking him for like. Like talking to Allan through this and.

[John Wascavage]

Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

Bringing him home. And so Allan leaves and everyone's. And before everyone else leaves, that is when Harold says. Harold's bit. Now we'll talk about it. I would like to read exactly what he says because it is. Some things are just too good to.

[John Wascavage]

To paraphrase 100%. Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

So imagine if you will.

[John Wascavage]

Yeah. Picture it.

[Matt Koplik]

Picture it. Please don't picture Zachary Quinto, please. Picture Leonard Frey with that William Friedkin shot.

[John Wascavage]

Dear God. Yeah, it's very.

[Matt Koplik]

God, isn't there a famous shot of something like that with two people, like a man and a woman in black?

[John Wascavage]

Yes. Yeah, it's what I thought of too. I know what you're talking about, and I can't think of it, but yeah, I literally had that thought too, as I was watching it. I was like, I've seen this before.

[Matt Koplik]

One's facing profile, one's facing dead on. And they complete each other sort of profiles in a way. So Harold. Oh, cow. For the second half of all this, the cowboy's been asleep.

[John Wascavage]

Oh, yes. Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

At some point in the middle of the Hank. Larry thing, cowboy falls asleep because he's.

[John Wascavage]

Been high and drunk. Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

And Larry and Hank go upstairs to fuck.

[John Wascavage]

Yes.

[Matt Koplik]

Which is another thing that Michael uses to sort of antagonize Alan because Hank goes upstairs and then Larry joins him. And then at some point, Michael says to Alan, what do you think they're doing up there, Alan? Yeah, they're not playing thumb war. They're playing hide the thumb.

[John Wascavage]

Well, some way.

[Matt Koplik]

In some ways, they're playing hide the thumb.

[John Wascavage]

Yeah, yeah, the thumb's going somewhere.

[Matt Koplik]

She sure is. But. And if it. And if you're doing it right, it can feel like a war.

[John Wascavage]

Yeah, but.

[Matt Koplik]

So the cowboy goes, wakes up after all this and goes, who won? It was a tie. Says Donald. And then Harold goes, okay, I gotta do my Leonard Frank.

[John Wascavage]

Yeah. Do you.

[Matt Koplik]

Now it's my turn. And ready? Thank you. And ready or not, Michael here goes. You are a sad and pathetic man. You're a homosexual and you don't want to be. But there is nothing you can do to change it. Not all your prayers to God, not all the analysis you can buy in all the years you've got left to live. You may very well one day be able to know a heterosexual life if you want it desperately enough, if you pursue it with a fervor with which you annihilate. But you will always be homosexual as well. Always, Michael, always. Until the day you die. And then goes on and says, thanks for the nifty gift. It's just what I needed. Bernard, thank you. Will you get him home? And then Donald, good to see you. Yeah, how about. And then goes to the cowboy, says, come on, Tex, let's go to my place.

[John Wascavage]

Place.

[Matt Koplik]

And he gets to the door, he goes, oh, Michael, thanks for the laughs. Call you tomorrow.

[John Wascavage]

I mean, what. Like I literally, when I watched that moment, was enthralled because what a perfect distillation of the gay experience of having a person you love just rip you to shreds and then going, all right, talk to tomorrow. Like, honey, honey, that's gay.

[Matt Koplik]

That's gay. All you have to do is watch Trixie and Katya talk to each other.

[John Wascavage]

Literally. Yeah, No, I loved it. I loved. I loved his final line, I'll call you tomorrow. Because it does also, like insinuate and for the fact that like, you know, as gay people, we get to choose our family.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah, well, and that's the thing, the word family, right. It's. Think of all the blow ups we have with family members that we still talk to. Major, major fights. Or when people in marriages talk about their ups and their downs and all these things. But. And they're still together and talk about it now. It's sort of war scars.

[John Wascavage]

War horse.

[Matt Koplik]

War horse.

[John Wascavage]

Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

What'd you call me? You call me a war whore.

[John Wascavage]

Wow, is that some horse?

[Matt Koplik]

Wars whore.

[John Wascavage]

War.

[Matt Koplik]

I'm a Warsaw. So the thing, first of all, Harold only really rips Michael apart because he so rightly deserves it.

[John Wascavage]

Oh, yes, yes.

[Matt Koplik]

And also needs to hear it.

[John Wascavage]

Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

Because Michael has Talked about his analysis a lot. But he's also talked about his religious side. He goes to church still. And he says, you know, he goes, I. I have spiritual insurance because I. It's like, I go to church, I pray, I do all of these things. He's like, if it's not real, big whoop, like, it's fine. But if it is real, I'm covered.

[John Wascavage]

Right?

[Matt Koplik]

Which is another argument that south park made at one point. When Kyle goes to his mom, he's like, she's like, well, Jews don't believe in hell. He's like, they. And Christians could be wrong. It's like, yeah, but if they're wrong, big whoop. They don't go to hell. If we're wrong, we go to hell. I'm like, yeah, like, yeah, boys in the band did it first. Kyle, you're not. You're not original, Kyle. But yeah, Harold gets down to Michael core, which is, you know. Yeah, he is. He is a self hating homosexual, which is what this play has always been criticized for being about. A room full of self hating homosexuals, which I think is incorrect. It is Michael and to a lesser extent, Donald. I don't think Donald hates himself for being gay so much as that he wants to fix all of the problems in his life. And if turning straight is one of them, so be it.

[John Wascavage]

Right.

[Matt Koplik]

Michael don't definitively hates being gay.

[John Wascavage]

Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

I believe everyone else in the play is pretty at peace with their sexuality. Emory, Emily Emory, definitely Bernard. We don't hear much about. But he seems to be solid.

[John Wascavage]

Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

Larry is totally okay with his sexuality. And then Hank seems to be at peace with it. Hank did a very brave thing in leaving his wife and going for his truth.

[John Wascavage]

Oh, yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah. And Harold is actually very at peace. It's why none of Michael's jabs actually get to him.

[John Wascavage]

Right.

[Matt Koplik]

And Michael jabs at him a lot. He talks about his pockmarks. He's like, you wouldn't have so many pocks if you stop. Yeah. Poking at yourself.

[John Wascavage]

Tweezers into his pores. Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

And then starts like railing Harold for finding the cowboy hot when he's dumb.

[John Wascavage]

Right?

[Matt Koplik]

And he's like, it's more about that. Don't you want someone you can talk to? Like, you're so pathetic for wanting someone skin deep. And then at some time later, Michael may makes jabs at other people about physical stuff. And Harold's like, oh, beauty's only skin deep, huh? And. And Mike and Michael's too blasted at this point to even recognize that Harold Is like, calling him out because he just, like, goes, right on. He's like, you're wrong, Harold. It's not skin deep. It's like, you idiot, Harold was calling you out on your. And Harold's sitting there like, the entire time, flipping through books, being like, how am I gonna let him pass? And then has an even greater job showing sort of how well they know each other while Michael's talking about, like, Harold. Harold hoards all these pills so he can escape plan one day and all these other things and has these tweezers and blah, blah, blah. And Harold goes, yeah, that's all well and good, Michael, but you're forgetting one thing. The pills are paid for. My apartment, paid for. It's like everything in my life is paid for.

[John Wascavage]

Yeah, he really. He really reads his ass there.

[Matt Koplik]

He does. Because they know each other. They read each other in a way that only people who have really been through war together can.

[John Wascavage]

100%.

[Matt Koplik]

And then says, call you tomorrow. As you said, it's. It's the combination of reading for filth while still being friends, but also this. So, okay, this is where I'll bring up my plate for the last time. After our reading.

[John Wascavage]

Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

I got a drink with miss Natalie Walker.

[John Wascavage]

Love her.

[Matt Koplik]

Love her, too. Friend of the pod, friend of the gays. And we had a talk sort of about the diagram of the. The main character of my play is. Is a man named John. And he. There are other characters as well, but the characters I'm referring to are his two best friends.

[John Wascavage]

Friends.

[Matt Koplik]

Kennedy, whom our dear Mr. Wiscavage played at a recent reading, and. And Anna, who Natalie played. Kennedy is gay. Anna is straight. And what Natalie was saying was really. It was really meaningful to me because she understood sort of that triangle. She goes, I. I feel like Kennedy and Anna share personalities, which is why they're friends, but Anna and John sort of share values, which is why they're friends. And Kennedy and John share sexuality, which is why they're friends. And they're all equally tied by movies. She's like you. They're different from each other, but you absolutely understand why they're friends. You understand their common language. And I said, you know, that's why Anna's friends with John. That's why Kennedy's friends with John. The reason why John is friends with them is that Anna understands Jon's goals to be loved, to be in a relationship to the Hank stuff. But Kennedy understands John's journey as a gamer.

[John Wascavage]

Yeah, it's not so simple.

[Matt Koplik]

It's not so simple. And. And, you know, both of them sort of show their asses in those ways with John, and John shows his ass literally, but also in other ways emotionally. But, like, Kennedy being a little unfeeling towards, like, John's ultimate wants, and Anna being unfeeling a bit towards John's messy journey.

[John Wascavage]

Right.

[Matt Koplik]

Because they just don't. There's love and there's acceptance, but there's things that are missing in their purview. And Harold and Michael, when we say war buddies, it is ultimately gay men. Why we choose our families is because I love my straight friends. I love my female friends. I love my family. I didn't realize really the power of having gay friends until college and even then until after, when I joined the gay Men's chorus and I became. And then my friend Danny, my friend Josh. You unfortunately, just. It's not just a culture that we share, but, yeah. Subconsciously understanding each other's journey, even if it's not exactly my own. I do anything you say to me, even if it's not what I went through. I'm like, on a soul level. I understand that, and I empathize and I'm here and I get it. And that's something that, like, all my female friends, for the. All the love they have in the world, they don't get in the same way. Like, I don't get the female experience or response.

[John Wascavage]

Oh, 100%.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah. And I don't pretend to.

[John Wascavage]

Right.

[Matt Koplik]

And I think it is something that's fascinating to consider because, like, when I bring that up to my female friends, they don't love that truth. It's okay that I. That I can say, I know I don't understand your. Your journey as a woman, but when I'm like, you don't really understand my journey. They get very upset about that. Not because I've shown a weakness of theirs, but, like, they get upset to hear that there's a part of my life that they can never touch.

[John Wascavage]

Sure.

[Matt Koplik]

But that is ultimately what bonds us, is, as gay men, is. Is. Is these things that we just all understand.

[John Wascavage]

Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

And I think Harold and Michael, for all of the terrible things they can say to each other and all the terrible things that they can do to each other, they've just. They understand each other so well. And you can't really give someone up like that when the world is so against you in so many other ways.

[John Wascavage]

Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

It's like, you are my sister. It's like you're my sister and family. You are my family. You're My sister and God, I fucking hate you sometimes. But like, God, am I. Do I know you're gonna be by my side when we're in battle?

[John Wascavage]

Yeah, well, and like, one of the things too that like really is so poignant to Harold and Michael's relationship and that final exchange is the fact that I think so many people in life, but specifically gay men because of, or let's say queer people, queer people in general there is. Because of who we are and the journeys we go on, there's a lot of conditional love and there's a lot of issues with like not receiving unconditional love from family. But like, what the thing of I'll call you tomorrow says is, is unconditional love. It's like, you know, it's like you just were such an ass for the last couple hours. You ruined my birthday, bitch. Like, you literally co opted my birthday and ruined it. But you're a messy bitch who loves drama. And I love you, you know, and it is, I think everyone that is such a human universal want is unconditional love. But especially because we as queer people get so many conditions put onto how we are loved by others, especially by those who are in the heteronormative lifestyle so often that one thing, and I know I keep making fun of it, but like one thing that is so universal and it's why that quote from Drag Race is so iconic, is we as gay people get to choose our family. And when you are family with someone with your family, it's an unconditional love. And so, you know, I, yes, there are moments in this play as I was watching it or, you know, watching the movie, where I definitely was so aware of things that were kind of like, took me aback and I was.

[Matt Koplik]

Like, oh, warning, warning, warning.

[John Wascavage]

You know, like problematic. Oh, gaga ga ga ga ga. But there were so many other parts of it or even those parts that were problematic that were just so human and you know, to err is. To human. Yeah, like, honestly. And I thought that, that I expected to enjoy this play. I knew that there were gonna be parts of it that were gonna be tough, but I really loved it, you know, as kind of like a general judgment of it. It really spoke to me. I thought for this being from the time period it was from, and also now reading more of the things that like about it and knowing about like, and what you just said to, or what you said earlier in the podcast. Podcast about its journey in the American theater and the importance that it holds in the American theater. You know, I, I I, she, maybe. She may. She is messy, but she's. She is kind.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah, she's messy.

[John Wascavage]

She's kind. You know, I, I, I, I, I really enjoyed it.

[Matt Koplik]

I did, too. I still do. My bumps with it are more, like, dramaturgical than they are thematic or political.

[John Wascavage]

Sure.

[Matt Koplik]

And especially now that we have so many more queer works to look at. Like, it can, it can be a part of the tapestry and be a.

[John Wascavage]

Shade of it, but are you gonna compare a cave drawing to the Mona Lisa? If you are, you're just. You're living a sad life.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah, that's like. That's like comparing me to you. You're the finished product.

[John Wascavage]

Oh, no, I was gonna say I'm the cave dry.

[Matt Koplik]

Sure, sure, sure.

[John Wascavage]

I was painted with dung.

[Matt Koplik]

That Harold speech in that final. Call you tomorrow. First of all, it's call you tomorrow, not call me.

[John Wascavage]

Call you. Yeah, exactly.

[Matt Koplik]

He's gonna do it. I'm gonna pick up the phone tomorrow, I'm gonna call you.

[John Wascavage]

Yeah, It's.

[Matt Koplik]

It's almost as if, like, Michael wants someone to tell him, I hate you. And instead, Harold says, I understand you.

[John Wascavage]

Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

And you know that I do. And believe it or not, you did not burn everything to the ground. But it is gonna be. Tomorrow is gonna be tough. Yeah, but it's. But it's gonna happen. And even says afterwards, Michael's like, tomorrow's gonna be a real ick day. And then when everyone goes, you know, Bernard's kind of having a bit of a drunken crisis because he feels he should never have called. Emery takes him home. Hank and Larry are still upstairs fucking.

[John Wascavage]

Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

Alan goes. And Michael has a major panic attack.

[John Wascavage]

Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

Major anxiety attack. And Donald sort of calms him down. There's. It's hard to watch in the movie without people around you, because there are moments that I feel like probably actually secretly landed with a bit of humor on stage.

[John Wascavage]

Sure.

[Matt Koplik]

Like when he's having the panic attack, and Donald says, I'll give you a Valium. And Don. And Michael says, within gasps, no, with alcohol. I don't want to die. And, I mean, he says it with a lot of passion.

[John Wascavage]

And yes, it was, like, an intense moment.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah. But I, But I can imagine the audience hearing that and, like, kind of having a nice sort of break the tension laugh. He's like, no, no alcohol. I don't want to die. It's, It's. And Donald's like, I'm not giving you the whole bottle.

[John Wascavage]

Right.

[Matt Koplik]

I'm giving you one.

[John Wascavage]

I know.

[Matt Koplik]

And then eventually, Michael calms Down. And he ends the play by going to Saint Malachi's for. For Mass. So you're not sure where Michael's at by the end of it. But I do want. As we get into the legacy and then sort of talk about more our own feelings, I do want to cut into the Alan bit a little bit more.

[John Wascavage]

Sure.

[Matt Koplik]

And theories.

[John Wascavage]

Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

Of Alan. Is Alan gay? Is Alan straight? Why did he come to New York? Why did he and Fran split? Why did. Did he call Michael? Why was it so important? And why did he show up when he said he wasn't going to?

[John Wascavage]

Right.

[Matt Koplik]

Because if he is secretly gay and is maybe figuring out if now's the time to do it, calling Michael, he had somehow understood that Michael was gay, even if Michael wasn't out to him.

[John Wascavage]

Right. Correct.

[Matt Koplik]

And there's. And Alan is not dumb. He's so square, but he's not dumb. The moment he gets there and sees how everyone's acting, he understands that this is a queer party. And so if he didn't know it before then he knew then.

[John Wascavage]

Oh, yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

And understands that this is who Michael is and who. And the life Michael's been living and stays.

[John Wascavage]

Right.

[Matt Koplik]

So when people go, oh, I don't think Alan is gay, my question is, then why does he stay? Why does he continue to stay?

[John Wascavage]

And I think that's Michael's question too.

[Matt Koplik]

Because at one point, when Alan's finally saying he's gonna go pre phone call, and Michael keeps telling him, you're gonna stay, and Emory's like, just let him go. Michael's like, he's not going. Because if he was gonna go, he would have left.

[John Wascavage]

Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah. You absolutely would have left. If this. If this truly sickened you, if you were really. If you weren't curious, if you weren't feeling something, you would have gone. But you're here.

[John Wascavage]

Right?

[Matt Koplik]

And it's true. He is. My watching the movie and the way that the actor plays Alan in that phone call and then sort of all of it, I feel like this is my dark brain, maybe. I feel like there's two roads that Alan is thinking when he shows up to New York. If he's. If he and his wife are possibly splitting and he's done taking the trouble to buy a plane ticket to fly to New York, also shows up in a fucking tuxedo. I know he doesn't have dinner plans. They all know he doesn't have dinner plans. He keeps saying, I've got a dinner somewhere.

[John Wascavage]

Yeah. He doesn't call. Well, I mean, I guess they don't have cell phones, but.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah, yeah, but he could have.

[John Wascavage]

Sorry, my Gen Z brain can't even.

[Matt Koplik]

But he could have gone on the phone and called information for the restaurant.

[John Wascavage]

Yeah, exactly.

[Matt Koplik]

But he doesn't.

[John Wascavage]

And he's there for a long time.

[Matt Koplik]

A long time. Till midnight.

[John Wascavage]

Yeah, basically.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah. Whatever dinner he had is fucking gone.

[John Wascavage]

Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

So. But the point is, he doesn't have dinner. So why does he. Why does he stay? Why does he come? Why is he in a tuxedo? I think if I'm going with a healthy route, Alan maybe wanted to go out to dinner with Michael and talk about the things he's been feeling and ask Michael, you know, guidance about it. If there's possible to quote a certain homosexual I spoke to today dipping his toes in the homosexual pool.

[John Wascavage]

Yeah, of course. Course.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah, possible. And if. And if he wasn't brave enough to do that or if it didn't go well, I think Allan might have been Exit planning.

[John Wascavage]

Yeah, I kind of got that a little bit as well.

[Matt Koplik]

I got the vibe that Alan was sort of dressing up in the Plaza Hotel wherever he was and was gonna kill himself.

[John Wascavage]

Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

Because he couldn't deal with it.

[John Wascavage]

Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

And I think that's ultimately shown in the end when he goes back to the familiar and the safe.

[John Wascavage]

Yep.

[Matt Koplik]

And also sees not in everyone around him because he does like Hank. He has no ill feelings towards Larry or Donald, although they seem to be relatively sane for him. I think he's more sort of. I think he's. He's not sickened by Hank and Larry being together. I think. I think there's a jealousy there. The only one who really kind of quote, unquote, disturbs him is Emery. And that is just his own square upbringing of how men should act.

[John Wascavage]

Well, exactly.

[Matt Koplik]

Watching Michael be Michael in that night, I think ultimately is what push him back into the closet and goes to the comfort of that life. And at the very least, like, I just cannot process any of this, which is a tragedy in the end. He might be going where there is love and he might be going where there is safety and comfort. But what Alan will not realize until he's almost dead is that it's not going to be enough.

[John Wascavage]

Yeah, yeah. No, I think that theory really rings true because I also kind of had the feeling that that exit planning was. Did seem kind of like it was going to be part of it. Yeah. I do think. And I love ambiguity in theater. I love when there is a role or a show where basically it is like canon that the actor gets to decide what the truth is for that character. And so I love that for Alan. But I do have to say with the movie again, you know, it just. Something about it really did ring that he is a repressed homosexual and that he came to New York to live this new life. I do think that like what you said too is like so true. Is, you know, he sees Michael. Michael is the one that kind of like press pushes him over. But I think that's less about Allan and more about Michael. Because something you were talking about when we were talking about Michael and Harold kind of like really jumped out to me about like. I think what Michael really wants, like at the end of the day, subconsciously is someone to hate him as much as he hates himself so that he feels justified in it. And he doesn't get it. He doesn't get what he wants. Which, I mean, at the end of the day he goes to church, which for some people is the closest you can get as a queer person to.

[Matt Koplik]

But he also. It's St. Malachi's, which is. That is the church that like Broadway actors go to.

[John Wascavage]

Oh, I didn't know that.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah, it's the one. It's right next to where Chicago is.

[John Wascavage]

Oh, sure. No, I know what you're talking about.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah, it's that church. It's not a. So for also the other thing is like he's going across town to go there like because Michael lives on in the East 50s, right. So he's going to like West 47th street to go to church.

[John Wascavage]

Well, that's a self handing homosexual.

[Matt Koplik]

Sure is. Sure is. Speeding in 15 minutes to get there.

[John Wascavage]

Jesus Christ. Yeah, but yeah, I think with Alan, you know, I do think, at least with the movie and I don't know what the. Who plays him in the, in the updated version?

[Matt Koplik]

Alan? In the updated one, it's Brian Hutchinson.

[John Wascavage]

Who is that?

[Matt Koplik]

He's the Hummus Festival. He's done a lot of film and tv. That's mostly what he's done. But he has been doing a lot more theater lately. He did. I said he did downstate at Playwrights. He replaced the actor in that. Yeah, he. So Brian and I, I don't say we're friends, we're Instagram friends.

[John Wascavage]

Sure.

[Matt Koplik]

So we've like done a couple of DMs back and forth and I know that he has his opinion on, on, on Alan and the movie version of that cast. They do a little bit of like a. Here's like an establishing shot of what everyone's up to. So like Emery and Bernard are in the cab. Hank and Larry are making out in Michael's bedroom. And Alan says he's going straight home, but he is at a bar alone having a drink. So.

[John Wascavage]

Gay thing to do. Gay thing to do.

[Matt Koplik]

He's not at Julius, which is where Larry is in the first one. And. And also Larry in the remake. They have. They have Andrew Reynolds, also Julius, the remake opening. They don't do Anything Goes. They do some other song. But, like, they do a lot.

[John Wascavage]

I did also. I had. Actually, one of the notes I wrote was the show opening with Anything Goes. I was like, they're dragging us.

[Matt Koplik]

The Harper's Bazaar cover of Anything Goes. But. Oh, actually, on that note, we need to take one last break.

[John Wascavage]

Woo.

[Matt Koplik]

Billy, I beg to differ with you.

[John Wascavage]

How do you mean?

[Matt Koplik]

You're the top.

[John Wascavage]

Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

You're an arrow collar. You're the top. You're a Coolidge dollar. You're the nimble tread of the feet of Freddy. Okay, so by having that shot. Sorry, the opening sequence in the new one, it's. It's all the same things of the original with, like, slight tweaks. So in the original, you see Hank playing basketball with probably other teachers. And the remake, it's Hank playing pickleball with a dude. Yeah. You see Andrew Randall's picking up a guy on the street. And then they go to.

[John Wascavage]

Is it dramaturgically correct? Do they have pickleball then?

[Matt Koplik]

I don't know.

[John Wascavage]

Isn't pickleball new?

[Matt Koplik]

Probably. Well, or racquetball or whatever it is. Squash. I don't know. They're all balls.

[John Wascavage]

They're all balls to you.

[Matt Koplik]

Control. And as you can see, it never says hairspray. And the words four men are written 97 goddamn times on the can. It's butch assurance. It's still hairspray, no matter if they call it ball.

[John Wascavage]

I loved. There's so many fantastic lines.

[Matt Koplik]

There are amazing lines. What's more. What's more boring than a queen doing a Judy Garland impression? A queen doing a Bette Davis impression.

[John Wascavage]

That was another one I wrote down. And I said, okay, keep dragging me.

[Matt Koplik]

Truly.

[John Wascavage]

I was like, okay. Boys in the band.

[Matt Koplik]

Okay. They really. Some things never change.

[John Wascavage]

Yeah. It's so true.

[Matt Koplik]

So, Alan. And then I want to pivot that to Michael for a second because I will also say this is something that you see with Kenneth Nelson's performance and the way that Friedkin follows him as Michael's starting to turn. So Allan, you know, he's in the new version, they have the establishing shot. Of him at the end at the bar alone, which I think is very much Joe Mantello and Brian Hutchinson definitively saying, no, no, no, Allan is gay. He was finally coming back around to it. It's been 10 years, but he's, he's kind of ready to do it again. This pushed him back and he's sort of doing the final goodbye before he gets back in there.

[John Wascavage]

Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

Whereas I think the freakin version, they don't really make it overt. They make the actor's performance obviously very complicated. And when you see him at the beginning, you see how emotional he is, you definitely can see that something's grappling at him and then the moment he gets there, he just kind of shuts down.

[John Wascavage]

Yes.

[Matt Koplik]

And I think that helps with the ambiguity of it all. But with Michael, so something Donald says to him, that's very much, much as you said, Chekhov gun. When Michael's first hearing that Alan wants to come and he eventually bends to it and Donald's like, why are you so uptight about it? And he's like, well, Alan's the square and blah blah, blah. He's straight, he's married, he goes, you know, imagine. I don't let him usually see my social life when we hang out. He's like, imagine the freaks that are going to be here tonight. And Donald's like, are you ashamed of your friends? He goes, oh, Donald, you're the only one I'm ashamed of.

[John Wascavage]

Of.

[Matt Koplik]

And you're just casually brushing it off. And in a way he is ashamed of them. He's ashamed of all of them. But in the same way that, like. I don't know how to say this and not sound hateful. I think Michael is someone who's. Because he has all the ammunition he has on everyone because he's observed so well.

[John Wascavage]

Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

Which makes sense that he was a writer in the play and becomes an actor in this version. But there are times, and maybe you don't know what I'm talking about or maybe you do. When I find myself sort of standing outside of the moment and sort of seeing everything. And if I'm not having fun, I can get very negative about it all myself and everyone included. And sometimes I just will see hypocrisy. I will see silliness that doesn't seem joyful but seems counterproductive or detrimental.

[John Wascavage]

Sure.

[Matt Koplik]

And.

[John Wascavage]

And.

[Matt Koplik]

Everyone has their ways of having fun. But like, I am not a club person. I never really was. I tried it for a while and I tried really hard to make it a Thing and I just couldn't do it. And anytime that I find myself at a club now, which is once every two years, sure, I do find myself a little bit in judgment of everyone there. And that's why I kind of leave. Because I'm like, that's not, that's not good for me. It's not good for them. Like, let them have their fun. But when you're the sober one, when you're the one who's not enjoying yourself and you see how everyone else is enjoying the thing that you're not liking, it makes you think less of them. When you see the people you know, this is a little legitimate, definite read. When you see the Broadway actors who bemoan that they don't have the money to pay rent, but you see that they took their weekend to pay for like a five digit vacation at Disney World.

[John Wascavage]

Sure, yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

And you go, I'm sorry, I don't. It's hard for me to respect you as a queer person or as any person when this is how you're choosing to express your individuality of doing it for the gram. You know, living your life for the gram and doing all these things for the gram and using your queerness for the gram. Sometimes I can get a little edgy about it.

[John Wascavage]

Sure.

[Matt Koplik]

So I can see when Kenneth Nelson turns as Michael and the thing that was bringing him joy at first, the dancing, the quiz, and then watching it all from a different angle and being like, God, these are all freaks. I mean, that's Lynn, that is the maleficent version of what I'm talking about for myself.

[John Wascavage]

Sure. But I think there's a lot of validity in that.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah. And there's something, I think it's something we all have. Anything with the right filter can become beautiful or disgusting at any point.

[John Wascavage]

Oh, yeah. Sometimes I oscillate the same thing multiple times in an hour. I'm like, I love this, I hate this, I love this, I hate this. Yeah, Yeah. I think that's a very true observation with Michael and that I didn't put together, but I mean, it really is. Once Alan arrives, he views his homosexuality and his friends, homosexualities through that lens of like how a straight person or a straight presenting person views them. And I think he does. I mean, in some ways I'm sure that's why the phone call comes about. Because he's literally, he knows they're gonna like, what a fucking embarrassing, like, journey, you know, like, like who, who, who? No one wins with a game like that. Like, you're, you're just torturing them. You're flaunting their trauma and going for.

[Matt Koplik]

The jugular in such a cruel and unnecessary way. The way he mocks Bernard with the racist tropes, intentionally racist tropes, and then tells Emery how unfuckable he is. Because they talk about, you know, when Emery goes to the bars, he tends to go home alone when Emery goes to the baths. They talk about the baths a lot.

[John Wascavage]

Yeah, they do. Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

You know, the last time Emery went to the bath, he actually got arrested, even though he hadn't even come on to anyone. Just like someone sat down next to him and he was. He was like, I'm just enjoying myself. And he's like, great, well, I'm arresting you. And they're like, leave it to Emery to not even come on to someone and get arrested. And so Michael turns that from the joke into the truth of, you know, you're not fuckable, which is not the truth. But like, what Emery's dark truth could be.

[John Wascavage]

Right.

[Matt Koplik]

And talking about Hank's situation with Larry and all the things that Hank blew up to be with Larry and you know, isn't that ridiculous? Because Larry doesn't even want to fuck Hank six days of the week.

[John Wascavage]

Right.

[Matt Koplik]

And doesn't go in for Donald. Donald, interestingly enough, I wonder, maybe that might be because he and Donald are sort of in a certain space with each other that like, that's off grounds. I don't know.

[John Wascavage]

I don't know. Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

Or he thinks more highly of Donald because Donald is going to therapy to maybe reverse his homosexuality.

[John Wascavage]

That's kind of like what I got from it is that that was kind of the. The reasoning subconsciously why he is less vicious to Donald. But yeah. Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

And that's why Harold's final line to Michael, that speech before the call you tomorrow, the you will always be homosexual. Always. It is both a gift and a blow. It is, I'm telling you, the thing that you don't want to hear. And it's going to crush you. Good. You need it. And also, like, after what, how you've been tonight, I kind of. I'm getting a little off doing that. It's like. But also just know that it's going to set you free. You've come so far. You. You've come out, you've done the life. Like, you also need to know there's no going back now.

[John Wascavage]

Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

There's no conversion. This is who you are. Deal with it. And it's not so bad. Like, you can be ridiculous. Harold is a ridiculous person. He knows it. He's very self aware. He and Emery might be the most self aware people in the whole show.

[John Wascavage]

Oh, for sure.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah. He. Harold knows what he looks like. He knows what his value to other gay men is. He even says, like, when Michael goes on about beauty being skin deep and blah, blah, blah, you want to be special and you want to have a good soul. And Harold's like, oh, yeah. You know, I've been told by my mother's rabbi, my soul's a knockout. He's like, however, I can't see a soul.

[John Wascavage]

Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

But I. It's like, he's like, I. When I tell you that I would trade it for this boy's beauty in a heartbeat, I would. And there's a, There's a great moment in the movie when they're. They all start sort of dancing again and Harold goes up to the cowboy to start dancing and the cowboy gets like, very awkward about it.

[John Wascavage]

Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

And he like tries to. He's like, Harold is not really putting on the moves. He's just sort of getting comfortable with his gift.

[John Wascavage]

Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

And the Cowboy is just being far too stiff and like, won't put his hand certain places. And then Harold doesn't even get hurt. He just rolls his eyes. He goes later and moves on. And somehow at the end of the, the. At the end of the evening, maybe because the cowboy has resigned himself that like, he's not going to the bars later, he's going home with Harold. But he doesn't. When he leaves with Harold, he doesn't leave in a sad state. He's like, he's like, text, we're going home. He's like, okay, yeah.

[John Wascavage]

No, that's so true. I mean, $20 is $20 too.

[Matt Koplik]

That's what he got paid for.

[John Wascavage]

At the end of the day, $20 is $20.

[Matt Koplik]

That's almost half of what Douglas makes Donald makes in a week.

[John Wascavage]

That is crazy.

[Matt Koplik]

And. And Cowboy makes it in four hours.

[John Wascavage]

Oh my gosh.

[Matt Koplik]

I'm not cheap. I cost $20.

[John Wascavage]

I loved. I loved that line. Yeah, yeah. No, I, Yeah, I also picked that up with the Cowboy and Harold in that moment. But I, I don't know. At the end, I do feel like I don't know. The Cowboy is also quite high and drunk at that point too. I think it's speaks many layers of the gay experience, for sure. To quote one of the greats, any hole is a goal.

[Matt Koplik]

Any hole is a goal. Harold also, I think you have to be self aware. You really do. Because, you know, obliviousness can maybe make your skin wrinkle less quickly, maybe give you fewer gray hairs. But there's. But that means there are things about you as a person that everyone else is aware of, that everyone else talks about, that everyone else will avoid, that you don't know, or they will use it against you.

[John Wascavage]

Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

And Harold is aware of how the world sees him.

[John Wascavage]

Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

And it's sort of. You can't say it to me because I've already said it 10 times before I got out of bed.

[John Wascavage]

Right. We're on the same field, baby. Like. Yeah, it's kind of. I mean, and that is a survival mechanism of gay men for decades. I mean, look at like Truman Capote, you know, a lot of people or a lot of gay men.

[Matt Koplik]

Well, why do you think cuntiness is our love language? It toughens our skin against the world.

[John Wascavage]

World. So true.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah, we. Let's. Let's. It's why we say. It's why they say why we say fag and faggot. We've. We've retaken that word for ourselves. So if someone hurls it at us, like it doesn't sting as less we can. We can come back at it with as much as they're trying to give or they think they're giving.

[John Wascavage]

Right. I. I mean, I always think like, you know, when you replay, like not issues, not conversations. What's it called when you come.

[Matt Koplik]

Conflict.

[John Wascavage]

No, when you replay conflict.

[Matt Koplik]

Conflict or a confrontation.

[John Wascavage]

Yeah, confrontation with someone else. And I believe like even like Trixie and Katya have said this before. But it's like so true. It's like it used to be at least like when we were younger. I mean, the most mortifying thing would be someone being like, oh, faggot. But it's like, okay, like that you're saying the same. You're saying a truth about me. You know, like, that's like me calling you ugly. Like we all know, though it's true.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah. It's like me saying. It's like me saying to you.

[John Wascavage]

Not, not you. I meant that the person. I'm in conflict. Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

No words. If I'm like, like, yo, blonde.

[John Wascavage]

Yeah, no, exactly. It's like yo, human. Like it really.

[Matt Koplik]

You with the shoes on. Like, there is a.

[John Wascavage]

There is a power to reclaiming. And also just of being self aware. Because if you are, I. I mean, it is the old thing too. And it's why so many gay people do own. Almost we go too far with the pendulum swing of self deprecation. But it's like If I make fun of myself, you have no ammo.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah, well. And I mean, think about to turn this on women for a second, but think about the.

[John Wascavage]

I've heard of women.

[Matt Koplik]

Think about the popularity of Amy Schumer, of when she was most loved by the world was when her humor was all against herself.

[John Wascavage]

Yeah. No, it was literally. Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

When she went on Ellen and was talking about, like, oh, when I went to this basketball game and sat next to that Glee girl. And like, she played a character named Quinn because she's beautiful and she can. If I played Quinn, I would be like the fat, ugly bartender. And everyone. The audience is like, ah, brah, brah, brah, brah, brah. Or she goes on Jimmy Fallon and she's like, oh, Bradley Cooper won't frank me.

[John Wascavage]

I'm fat.

[Matt Koplik]

And everyone's like. And then the moment she goes, I think I'm pretty beautiful and I like my life and I'm confident in my intelligence. I was like, oh, my God, whatever. Yeah. Like, oh, cringe, cringe and listen, like.

[John Wascavage]

Well, she's also done some things. Other things.

[Matt Koplik]

She's done a lot of. She's done a lot of cringe.

[John Wascavage]

There's a good amount recently, but it's.

[Matt Koplik]

Not the recently that they turned, right.

[John Wascavage]

No, you are.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah, they. They turned. When she stopped with the self deprecating.

[John Wascavage]

Yes.

[Matt Koplik]

And it was like, how, like, how dare you not look like Margot Robbie and pretend that you can just be nice and confident and. And stand your ground like that? I don't like that.

[John Wascavage]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

So I chose. Yeah. I chose Amy Schumer for that turn specifically. Not for. Because of who she is as a person or who. What. Who she's chosen to be lately, but for that moment.

[John Wascavage]

Yeah, no, that's. That's a really great example of that. Yeah. Yeah. Do we have to, like, decide at the end of this if it's problematic or not? Do we. Do we decide?

[Matt Koplik]

You can't. At the very beginning, I used to ask my guests, I'm like, problematic, or is it like problematic moment of its time or like, misunderstood? And I don't really care about that anymore. And I feel like with boys in the band, it's a little bit of its time and misunderstood.

[John Wascavage]

I would with agree.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah. I don't think it's dated because so much of it holds up.

[John Wascavage]

So much of it holds up and.

[Matt Koplik]

So much of it is still relevant. And, you know, Mark Crowley was on Theater Talk. For part of my research, I watched an interview with Mark Crowley, Michael Musto, and the original Hank Lawrence Luckinville. And they asked Michael Musto, like, you know, is it dated? He was like, fuck, no. Absolutely. Absolutely not. And anyone who says so, of course, okay. Talking about the problematic elements, not just any of the racial stuff or anything like that, but truly. So the play came out in 68, and it had its detractors. It had Edward Halliby and people like that. And then STONEWALL happens in 69, and the movie comes out in 70, and the movie gets protested by gay men. And it's actually for being a detrimental viewing of homosexuals and their experience. We don't all get drunk and hate ourselves. We don't yell at our friends like, blah, blah, blah. And it was like. And that became the narrative about the Boys in the band for like 25 years. And that's why Ben Brantley's review in the 90s of the off Broadway revival was, oh, I guess it's okay to like it again. But then it was sort of put back in because that revival didn't really go great.

[John Wascavage]

Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

And it wasn't really until the 2018 revival with all of the gays that it came back into the pop culture zeitgeist and won revival. And they did the Netflix movie. And I would still argue a lot of people don't know it. More people know it now than they did. It was very much a thing stopped being a thing. And, you know, Mark Crowley never really had the success that Boys in the Band implied he would.

[John Wascavage]

He.

[Matt Koplik]

He went off to Hollywood. He, you know, he did. He lived off of his Boys in the Band money forever and tried to write some more things and did this and none of that worked out. He wrote another play that bombed. And then eventually Natalie Wood got him another job in Hollywood being the showrunner for her husband TV show Hart To Hart, which gave him money, gave him clout. And from then on, it was sort of like odd TV jobs. Then wrote his sequel to Boys in the Band, but he never became a prolific playwright. He became more of a one and done. And everyone in that original company, while some of them had strong careers, a lot of them got cut short due to aids. People like Lawrence Luckinbill became a Tony nominee, but never really was a leading man after Boyz in the Band and Cliff Gorman started to. But he died in the early 80s. So. Yeah. So, like, its cultural footprint is odd. And so there is still the backlash of, like, well, you know, we don't want people seeing us this way. We want positive reinforcement. To which I go, well, that's just ignoring all the things that are actually there. There are still people who are like this because there is still a world telling people that being queer is not okay.

[John Wascavage]

Yep.

[Matt Koplik]

There is a world telling you that, you know, bisexuality doesn't exist, that choose one or the other, or if you're gay, there's something wrong with you. There was.

[John Wascavage]

I. I mean, even more so now than even the last, I mean, the last decade.

[Matt Koplik]

Like, yeah, I feel like in the 90s and early 2000s, there was a part where, like, it started to, to be less. Less troublesome. We had things like the Birdcage and In and out, movies that have also come under scrutiny. Now that I think is super unfair and dumb, but that's a story for another day. And Will and Grace Happens and that had its scrutiny, but whatever. And then, you know, things like the Matthew Shepard murder and Proposition 8 sort of just shows you how it's never over. And you can't just say, oh, we only want positive representations because there are people. You never know what's gonna touch anybody, what's gonna make anyone come around. And Boys in the Band was a lot of people's first insight into homosexuals. And Edward Albee viewed it as, oh, it gave straight audiences a chance to have disdain for us for a reason. And then other people said no. It gave them empathy towards us for the first time because all like, not even like six months prior to Boys in the Band coming out, fucking like, NBC did an hour long special about the, the grossness of homosexuality and the sort of psychological torment of it and the treating. Treating gays like we were cartoon crooks in the night, coming in the alleyways, coming up to your apartment and being like, let me tell you about Judy Garland and fuck your husband. Like, that was what they're saying, right?

[John Wascavage]

Yeah. Which, I mean, now it's, you know, trans people are trying to sneak into your bathrooms to. Question mark.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah. Trans people are coming into your bathrooms to either either assault women or tell children that they should be trans. Like, I'm. Like, it's very dumb. And, and the truth is that people know it's dumb if it's. That's, if it's that simple. It is. It's a dumb. It's a dumb argument. Yeah. And. And you need to show the struggle that some people still have. So that way people who are struggling don't feel alone. Because it can be very aspirational to look at a movie about someone who gets all the acceptance in the world. It's why I actually, really, speaking of Ryan Murphy, Fucking things up. It's why I really hated the prom.

[John Wascavage]

Movie, because I never watched it.

[Matt Koplik]

You don't need to. The one thing I'll say about is that Meryl actually sounds really, really good.

[John Wascavage]

Oh, good for Donna Murphy.

[Matt Koplik]

This head Oscar buzz also likes to promote the theory that Donna Murphy dubbed Meryl. I'm like, she didn't. And you need to stop. Like, this is. This is dangerous to children.

[John Wascavage]

This is the real danger.

[Matt Koplik]

This is the real danger. Not the boys in the band. Hot take, hot take, hot take. But in the stage show, because I know you know the stage show. Our lovely friend, Caitlin Fat. Fucking damn. Damn. But I always loved in the prom, the stage show that we had three elements of queer acceptance or non acceptance, if you will. We had the kids who turn over really quickly because they're, you know, they're not 25 yet. They're still. They are still Toll House cookies unbroken. They're. No, they're Easy Bake.

[John Wascavage]

That's what you said, Easy Bake.

[Matt Koplik]

They're Easy Bake. They're. They're. The microwave. They're. They're. They're mug cake.

[John Wascavage]

Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

They're learning. And. And it's just with more information and more perspective gives them a better idea. Then you have Alyssa's mother, who isn't there yet, but she's willing to talk. That's the first step, because she can't change over here night.

[John Wascavage]

Right.

[Matt Koplik]

And then you have Brooke Sashmanskas character Barry, who is grown up, has been out for 20 years and still doesn't talk to his parents. But that's okay because he's had to learn to make it okay.

[John Wascavage]

Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

And the movie goes, no, no, the kids are gonna turn around immediately. Kerry Washington's gonna be upset about it for a minute. Then come back to that prom in five minutes in a rainbow dress and be like, you're my daughter. I love you. Tracey Ullman is Barry's mom. She shows up. She's like, I know it's been all these years, but I love you and I accept you. So when someone comes out and sees that, comes out and goes, well, everyone will accept me. Or if they don't, they'll accept me in two minutes. But that doesn't always happen. They'll. They won't go, oh, you know, this person isn't there yet, or this person will never be there. They go, did I come out wrong? Did I do this incorrectly?

[John Wascavage]

Right.

[Matt Koplik]

Because Ryan Murphy tells me everyone will just be accepting.

[John Wascavage]

Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

And the stage shows, like, no, not everyone will be. And Boys in the band is like, not everyone's gonna accept you. Your chosen family will. But like the world, there's still a world out there that's going to hurt you. You have to learn to be okay with who you are. Because no matter what any party says, no matter what any church says, being gay is not. It's not a problem. It's not something that you need to analyze. You need your desire to fail. Donald.

[John Wascavage]

Sure, sure.

[Matt Koplik]

Analyze her.

[John Wascavage]

Yeah, let's delve into those, those, those waters.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah, good. Alcoholics Anonymous, Michael. Yeah, but like the gay part. No, as Harold says, you will always be gay. Always Ways. And in a beautiful way, that is. It seems like a dagger, but it's the dagger that's. That's cutting off your strings to self torture.

[John Wascavage]

Yeah. Self hatred. Completely.

[Matt Koplik]

You'll always be gay. Cut. Yeah, yeah. Love it. Love to see it. But yeah, that's. That's ultimately why this play is in this series, because of that. And, and also, as you said, like Gen Z's desire to have no conflict, no drama, no sex, no blood, no danger. It's why they all loved this. Sweeney Touch. Hot tonic. But, yeah, I don't. What would Gen Z say about this play? All my Gen Z listeners tell me.

[John Wascavage]

Yeah, if you're, if you're a Gen Zer. Comment. No, I don't know. I would really be intrigued because I do also. I crack on Gen Z so much, but I do have to say so many of the people that I've worked on last couple, like months and years who are younger are so not this. I'm doing the same thing that they're doing to the movies where I'm taking snapshots and I'm making extreme generalizations about this must be the infinite truth. The infinite truth, Alan, is that there is no infinite truth.

[Matt Koplik]

There is an infinite true. I also want to say every time I've been to the theater in the last two years, it's never been a Gen Z or whipping out their phone in the middle of the show. It's been a boomer.

[John Wascavage]

It's been a boomer about it. Tell me about it. Like, honestly, anytime we have to put our phones in those bags, I'm like, thank God. Thank God. Because someone out there is gonna, in the quietest moment of the play, have Kelly Clarkson's Breakaway.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah, it's stupid. It's. Honestly, I've been so happy for the plays this season, but I've always dreaded going because I just knew it was gonna be filled with boomers who Were going to see the play because it's what. It's what you go see. And I'm like, a phone is gonna go off. Someone's gonna have to whip their phone out to check a text. They're gonna. That is the moment that Rachel McAdams is churning her guts out is the moment that someone's gonna decide to open their box of popcorn and munch, oh.

[John Wascavage]

My God, someone was unwrapping something. When I saw that show for the first, like, 20 minutes, I was like. And. And it was not a gen. Zer. It was. It. It was. I don't. I don't even know what it was. The biggest fucking Werthers imaginable.

[Matt Koplik]

Every generation has their shit.

[John Wascavage]

Yeah. Luckily, as millennials. Millennials. We're perfect.

[Matt Koplik]

We saw with you at the very beginning. Millennials. We flip flop.

[John Wascavage]

Yeah. I mean, honey. Yeah. If you're not flip flopping, you're not doing that.

[Matt Koplik]

We're not. You sure ain't. And if you're Gen X, you're not always making the best art. Everyone do. They're not always making the best art. I'll say that. They're the ones writing a lot of the scores for Broadway right now. And I'm like, I think you need to pass the torch to someone who's willing to not give nodes. Honey, give me a note. But not a node.

[John Wascavage]

So true.

[Matt Koplik]

So true.

[John Wascavage]

I swear to God. There are so many times. Sorry. No, this is when we come. I become a boomer so many times over these last couple years where I leave a theater and I'm like, my ears hurt. Like, it was impressive, but I didn't like it. Nope. You sang so high. You know, I'm gonna say something controversial. That's the real problematic in theater is singing too high.

[Matt Koplik]

Singing too high. And sound. And speakers that are too loud.

[John Wascavage]

Yeah. Dear God.

[Matt Koplik]

Also bad scripts. Well, but that's a. That's a story for another team. When we had best book of a musical this year, I was like, I think we can maybe just let this one go today. I don't think we need this category this year. Who won best month? It was Sefs.

[John Wascavage]

Okay.

[Matt Koplik]

Sephs was probably my third choice in that category, but there. There was no winner for me. It was like, okay, which of you is, you know, the Allen of the group?

[John Wascavage]

Yeah. No. So. So legit. Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

Not.

[John Wascavage]

Not doing. Not doing the most harm, but, yeah, definitely not. Definitely not coming out. And. Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

You're no. Emery.

[John Wascavage]

No. Dear God, no. Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

You're not coming in with lasagna. And cake and make. And. And nice stories and lockjaw jokes.

[John Wascavage]

Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

What's the matter? Anytime someone says, suck my dick, just go, what's the matter?

[John Wascavage]

You're.

[Matt Koplik]

You know what I'm gonna say? I'm gonna get even worse than that. I'm like, what's the matter? Your priests have lockjaw.

[John Wascavage]

Oh, God.

[Matt Koplik]

I can make that joke because I've been groomed. You cannot, honey.

[John Wascavage]

I mean, literally, one of my youth, like youth counselors is in jail for molesting boys on trips that I were on. I was on. If it was not for my brother being there, you would have been healed. Honey, honey, honey.

[Matt Koplik]

You're like.

[John Wascavage]

Have you.

[Matt Koplik]

You think it's your brother that kept that from happening and not you being you? You really think that?

[John Wascavage]

Baby, I have to tell myself, you.

[Matt Koplik]

Really think that, that.

[John Wascavage]

That.

[Matt Koplik]

That. That charismatic pedo did not come out, stop by you and go, no, not this one. One of these things is not like the other.

[John Wascavage]

Listen, he was an Italian fireman. I was a young child. It was. We all make mistakes. God damn it. We make mistakes. Mistakes.

[Matt Koplik]

We all make mistakes.

[John Wascavage]

But he made a lot. He made a lot more mistakes. He made crimes. He made horrible, horrible crimes. I can make those jokes, too.

[Matt Koplik]

Delbert Bots. That man is not.

[John Wascavage]

Oh, God. We all need to find a DDS.

[Matt Koplik]

We sure do. Two DDRs.

[John Wascavage]

That dick's doing something. DGS.

[Matt Koplik]

Delbert Bots and his magical organs. No. What? Appendages.

[John Wascavage]

Okay. Phalanges. That's the word you use?

[Matt Koplik]

Yes, that's. That's what it was. Yeah. So, John, I guess, final, final phrases on boys in the Band. Because again, when it comes to legacy, the real legacy of Boys in the Band is the queer canon we have now. When you think about it, in the documentary Making the boys, Terrence McNally was like, honestly, I can't tell you if I would have written love, valor, compassion if it wasn't for boys in the Band. And then I think it's Candy something who was the. The trans choreographer who choreographed Season eight's finale. Do you remember her name?

[John Wascavage]

Candice Cain.

[Matt Koplik]

Candice Kane.

[John Wascavage]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

Candice Kane was interviewed, and she was like, someone had to go first.

[John Wascavage]

Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

She's like. And it's boys in the band. She's like. And I'll say, when I first saw it, it terrified me, and I didn't like it. She goes, I've come to appreciate it now. But ultimately, just the truth is someone had to go first. Albie wouldn't go first. Williams wouldn't go first. Crowley went first.

[John Wascavage]

Well, and I mean, ironically, Ironically, ironically. I mean, it's so sad. But so one of the things that, like in the last couple years that I've really gotten into is early pre Hays Code, homosexuality in art and specifically in film. And so I have this DVD, speaking of DVDs that I bought from like, eBay, this 1927 German film, a silent film that is considered the first positive, like, ever portrayal of homosexuality as the. Homosexuality as the main, like, homosexuals, the main character. Whereas, like, yes, of course, there is unfortunately a tragic death of another homosexual. But like, it still at the end was not like, oh, it's his fault and whatnot. But the thing that the Boys in the Band as a marker really kind of like. Like to me, why it is so important is that unfortunately, history goes in cycles. And unfortunately, we are almost completely mirroring exactly what happened in the 20s and the 30s, like in the world 100 years ago. And so without those pieces, you know, if it weren't for something like that, like, what is that from the 30s to the 70s, that's 40 years that are just lost. 40 years of gay art. That gay art that could have been of, you know, of. Of Cat on a Hot Tin Roof, that could have been, you know, you.

[Matt Koplik]

Know what I mean?

[John Wascavage]

Like, from the film version because of.

[Matt Koplik]

How they took out the homosexuality in the film.

[John Wascavage]

But like, I think that something can be problematic and something can also be really important. And I think that when we. We ask so many times as queer people for people to view things out of a binary, and unfortunately we are also conditioned to view certain things in a binary. And so I think that the Boys in the Band is just a beautiful representation of. Of something saying we're going to say fuck it. To the last 40 years of what we've been told as queer people can or cannot show. And we're just gonna write a story about it and is it perfect? No. Is it problematic? Sometimes, but it's important.

[Matt Koplik]

There's also a difference. I wrote this in an Instagram post recently because I am what, the voice of a generation. There is a difference between problematic. The question is, is this problematic or are you just uncomfortable? And I think I agree with you. There are parts of Boyz in the Band that are problematic just in terms of the. The. The sharpness with which some of the racial and sexual humor. Just things that we wouldn't say today. No, but said then. And but to be fair, they do acknowledge, like, this is the character where this is happening towards doesn't really like it, accepts it with one person only and for a specific reason. I think today we would maybe want that to be a fuller scene than it is. But it does accomplish at least the acknowledgment of it.

[John Wascavage]

And it's also a slice of life at the time. And the fact is, if we completely got rid of that, you know, it's kind of erasing a part of the fact that we are a messy race of people, like humans are messes. We make a lot of mistakes and we make a lot of bad choices that we eventually later can hopefully look at and go, oh, that shouldn't be anymore.

[Matt Koplik]

I want to read this letter to the editor of the New York Times. Around the time Boyz in the Band had come out, Rex Reid apparently had written an article about it.

[John Wascavage]

Okay.

[Matt Koplik]

And the title of the letter is what Reason? Written by Katherine Vandegrift of Philadelphia, Pennsylvania.

[John Wascavage]

Oh, boy.

[Matt Koplik]

To the editor, Rex Reid's article on Mart Crowley clearly expresses the awe and admiration he has for a man who can write a play that Hollywood wants to film. It doesn't matter that the play, the Boys in the Band, brings up the inglorious subject of homosexuality and that such approbation is doing young people a lot of harm. Apparently, Mr. Reid feels that this is a subject that hasn't received its just marriage merits. He calls it a breakthrough, which I find very amusing. Were we trying to get this ugly subject out in the open? For what reason, may I ask? I find the whole thing distasteful and boring and have no intention of wasting any money on seeing either the show or the movie. I can see I may be outnumbered by the imitative homosexuals that abound amongst young people, especially in New York City and Hollywood, with their silly long hair and feminine garbage garb, drag us instead of glorifying them, sympathizing and making them feel they are, quote, in style. A little more mockery and derision might help a lot toward turning some of them back to normal channels. And then that that letter got another letter from someone that asked to remain anonymous because they were gay. And they said, my parents don't know and I don't want them to know. But they basically said, like, this letter is.

[John Wascavage]

Is.

[Matt Koplik]

Is bullshit. Her attitudes and ideas do mirror a lot of society. She goes, but for what reason? Because we need it. Because this is very. Like, there are things about boys in the band I don't like, but a lot of it is very true and it just needs to exist. And also, by the way, she can't say anything if she hasn't seen it. She needs to see it before she has an opinion. And, like, talk. He's like. Talks about our long hair and feminine garb. He's like, yeah, that's some people. But like, that's not everyone. And like, no, it's. He goes, no one chooses to be gay. You are gay. No one can persuade it to you and say it in the same way. No one can persuade me to persuade me to be straight. It's the skin you're in. And that is ultimately what the boys in the band is about. There's no persuasion, there's no force, there's no pressure. You are what you are. And if you don't like it, you have to ask yourself why. So for Katherine Vandergrift, why do you find it such an ugly subject, Catherine, is because you were able to.

[John Wascavage]

Oh.

[Matt Koplik]

He also says the reason why she finds it so ugly is because it just hasn't been out there for so long. And it's the same way right now with, you know, with trans rights, when so many people who are dumb say people are just trans left and right now because, you know, everyone's just getting indoctrinated, groomed. Yeah. And it's like, no, they've always been here. You're. You're hearing more about it because people are feeling more comfortable in their own skin to come out. And with each new person that comes out, another person feels safe to come out as well. And with representation in media, they see themselves. That is why. And that is a good thing, because if. If we don't have that, then we lead to suicide, we lead to murder, we lead to so many ugly things. And the difference between, like a right winger being like, well, I'm just being who I am, and a trans person saying, I am who I am, a trans person. Person's desire to be their authentic self doesn't harm anybody.

[John Wascavage]

0.

[Matt Koplik]

A right wing person being like, I'm just being myself. I'm like, well, yeah, you. Being yourself is wanting other people to suffer.

[John Wascavage]

Yeah, yeah, that is.

[Matt Koplik]

That is. That is a negative.

[John Wascavage]

Literally was. You were reading that article from what's her. From Pennsylvania. I was like, this could be a Facebook post today. This could be. I could be. I feel like I'm reading that on someone's Facebook right now. It's history is so cyclical.

[Matt Koplik]

It is. Well, the truth is that that attitude has always. Has always been around and it will always be around.

[John Wascavage]

Unfortunately, it's instinctual to be wary of someone different, but also have to understand we are not those same.

[Matt Koplik]

I think the truth is that right now I find that the minority opinion is one that always shouts the loudest. So it can always feel like it. It's the overwhelming majority, especially with social media.

[John Wascavage]

Yeah, but.

[Matt Koplik]

But it's important to know that, like, the overall cultural shift has happened with homosexuality. We see things like South Korea.

[John Wascavage]

Sorry, I'm just laughing because literally my two of my nieces who have been homeschooled who, like, still go to church, go to, like, Christian colleges, when I, like, go home, I. The amount of times I hear them say, like, yes, slay. Okay, like, work. Like, I'm like. Do you know what you're saying? Like, but.

[Matt Koplik]

But it's.

[John Wascavage]

But also, at the same time, they also, you know, like, with me and Adam, like, they know they have a gay uncle. And so it is. It is different. But. Sorry I cut you off.

[Matt Koplik]

No, no, no, no. Sorry. I love that. Please tell me more personal stuff about you.

[John Wascavage]

That's all.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah, that's all. That's all. That's all I've learned about John in the last five years. But no, it's just. It's. You see things like South Korea allowing same sex couples to have. What was it? Like, either legal rights or something. Yeah, sorry. I read it this morning on the treadmill, clocked it, and then did this whole thing that has scrambled my brain. So words are coming out less good now.

[John Wascavage]

No worries. We've been doing this for about 17 hours now.

[Matt Koplik]

But you see the world and how it's shifting towards the positive on that all over the place. And even in this country, even though we have people who are trying to reverse it, the truth is that the majority of the country is for queer rights. You. Every. Anytime there is a national poll, it is over. Like, we're talking overwhelming. We're talking like over 70%.

[John Wascavage]

Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

That is a vast majority. It's people who want the simplicity that they are comfortable with because that's all they can handle. Their brain cannot handle anything complex or anything beyond what they know.

[John Wascavage]

Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

Which is a shame. Although. And we're not totally separate from that, because I think that something that I have felt with modern queer texts, and fight me on this if you disagree, but I feel like there was a time in the. Actually, no, no.

[John Wascavage]

Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

There was a time in the 90s, especially whenever there was a gay work in theater, the gays flocked to it because they like angels in America. Love, valor, compassion, Jeffrey falsettos. It was like, we're going we're going, we're going. We're like, we're showing up. So that way producers know to keep producing this because. Because they'll make money. And in the last, like 10ish years, I feel like with more stories that we get and the more comfortable we get sort of expressing our opinions as gay men, queer people in general. But I feel like this is more a queer gay man thing. If a story does not exactly mirror our journey in life, we get very negative about it. And I find that to be a little dismissive. And I can go all over the place. Like, I remember when. When Love Simon came out, which was just a very boring gay high school movie.

[John Wascavage]

Yeah. And I was like, it's like. It's like a lifetime. Like just formulaic, coming of age, but gay. Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

And I was like, I'm so glad we have our 16 candles now. It's dumb, it's boring. And like, well, there will be others. But I just remember I went to see. But I remember Lost cultures just ripping it for filth because they were like, this is to make straight people comfortable. This isn't our story. I'm like, no, Matt and Bo. And it's not your story. And that's okay. It doesn't have have to be, but it exists. Like Fire Island. That is your story. You did it. But, like, my life is not the gaze of Fire Island.

[John Wascavage]

No.

[Matt Koplik]

My dislike of that movie was more that I didn't find it terribly funny and I thought it was gonna be. And some people in that movie are not actors and some are, and the divide is clear. But, like, I have no political thing against it. And I'm also very proud of them for making it and, and, and sharing their perspective, because it's a greater perspective to hear from. They're all smart dudes, and it taught me more about myself and themselves. But I didn't watch it and go like, that's not me. Burn it to the ground. And I feel sometimes that happens.

[John Wascavage]

Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

Do you see that sometimes? Do you feel that anyway? I do.

[John Wascavage]

I know this is like, seemingly going to be like a bit of a, like, harsh right turn, but I see it. Well, no. So this, again, this is not a great example, but let's see. If I could. If I could stick this land. I have a theory that one of the reasons why astrology has really, really become popular with the younger generations and our generation too. A lot of my friends very much buy into astrology as, like, as word, as concrete. I take umbrage with that. Not just because I'm a Gemini, and so I always get the fucking short end of the stick and everyone automatically hates me. But I take umbrage with that as an actor, as an artist, because one of the reasons why I love being an actor and I love being an artist is that we get to explore all the different sides of the humanity that we have inside of ourselves. And it can be scary and messy and weird and really uncomfortable to like, really dig into the parts of yourself that aren't unlike us. But I think one of the reasons why a lot of people are flocked recently or in the last couple decades, and I do think it is tied into what you were talking, is that we. I don't know why, but I think we as a society have the need to. It's so funny because we live in a world where it's like, I don't like labels, don't label me. But unless something is very clearly labeled as, like, you are this. I am a Gemini, so I am two faced. I am a cancer, so I'm spicy. I don't know what the actual adjectives for the different astrology signs are astrological signs are, but I think we have this need to be like, I know exactly what I am and I am only this. So I don't like love, Simon, because that is not who I am. That is not what I am. But Fire island is who I am. But the truth is, is that like, like there are a lot of parts of love, Simon, that I'm sure you can relate to or you did relate to, or like maybe are uncomfortable for you to watch or you're jealous of because you didn't get that. And so I think that like, we as a society need to accept more of the fact that like, the only thing that we're really getting when we pinpoint. And again, I'm going to use the word binary again, where we say like definitively like, I am this, I am that, is that we give ourselves a false sense of security that we, like, know ourselves. But the thing is, we as humans, we encompass so much more than we could ever imagine or are aware that we could, or aware that we are capable of being of doing. And I think this also was like true of Michael in a lot of ways of the character Michael in a lot of ways that like, I think that there's a bit of self acceptance that needs to happen to us where we accept that we don't really know ourselves.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah.

[John Wascavage]

And you know, and I know that's like a weird thing to say, but I Think that in some ways there's a lot more freedom in that, but it's. It's ickier, it's grayer, it's not as comforting. It can be really uncomfortable because we will discover sides of ourselves that we don't like.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah.

[John Wascavage]

Yeah. Like Michael. But it's the truth, babes. Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

We're all unfinished. I. Yeah. And I think for me, also, I. Every time I hear about. And it's both sides, it's people going, yeah, I can't relate to that. I don't. That's not my life. I don't like it. Or when people take ownership of things because they go, well, as someone who went through something very similar, I must say. And I go on. That shades how you perceive the work, that shades how you felt when you first saw it. But that doesn't necessarily change what the work actually is. That doesn't change how I feel about it. And you don't own it. You know, And I feel like the gay community should own Boys in the Band just for our history, for the culture. But I do not feel like I own it any more than my father does. My father loves it as much as I do. We both just think it's a good, good piece. My connection to it is different than his, but it's. There's no sense of propriety. And I. I don't want people to feel like they can't enjoy or not enjoy something because it isn't exactly like them. Because this is not what we're also trying to tell people to do. And it's the opposite of we're trying to tell people do in life.

[John Wascavage]

Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

I. I would love it if a million straight people saw my play and. And felt for the character of John, even if it's not their journey. That's just classic empathy.

[John Wascavage]

Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

Because it's not. It's not. The specifics of the story aren't your own, but you can relate to the emotion. You can relate to a relationship or anything. And the more we have, the more we kind of define it as well. No, it's gotta be like what I am and as you said, have these labels and this is who I am. The more we cut ourselves out from each other and from the world.

[John Wascavage]

Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

And art, supposed to do the exact opposite of.

[John Wascavage]

That's supposed to do the literal opposite.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah. It's connecting us all. It's the communal. It's a communal response to a piece. It's when. And I. I'm gonna write something about this on Instagram at some Point. But like, it's why I hate the phones and the, and the chewing and the. All that stuff and the late comers and the talking and, you know, I think there's a time to cough and not cough. And you can always tell when a cough is an actual cough and when someone is just uncomfortable with a silence that you didn't have to do that. But it is ultimately a thousand people or more or less having a joint response to a singular thing. And sometimes there's a real sense of community of 1300 people finding the exact same thing funny at the exact same time.

[John Wascavage]

100. I love that feeling. God, I love that feeling.

[Matt Koplik]

Or 1300 people all having different responses to a character, portraying a character or doing this or doing that. That is. It makes us smarter. It makes us better. It makes us more human. And I don't think it's what. And when people make it about themselves, when they shriek for the actor, they know when they do all these things, I'm like, this isn't about you. It's not about me. It's about us. Like, I'm being quiet so everyone can hear it.

[John Wascavage]

Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

If I laugh, it's because I'm genuinely laughing, not because I want Ramin to know that I found him funny. That moment.

[John Wascavage]

You'Re gonna go fishing for Ramin in other ways. You're gonna be squatting into those DMs, going, Nice workout, bud.

[Matt Koplik]

We do go to the same gym. We do go to the same gym. But that's a whole other situation that I want to get into. But, but you know, but you know, yeah, it comes from that sense of I want people to empathize with people who aren't like them on stage and because that can lead to life. It all leads to life.

[John Wascavage]

Yeah, it does. Yeah. Ask questions. Don't, don't, don't share answers. I don't know what I'm saying. Well, yeah, this is maybe sharing an answer by saying, ask questions. Look, look, look for me, look messy.

[Matt Koplik]

Exactly. Look for answers. The person who feels that they know everything is probably one of the dumbest people you know?

[John Wascavage]

Yeah. And I always, I actually caught myself doing this recently. I was watching something and I was not enjoying it at first, but it was because I had made a snap judgment and I said, john, stop that. Look at this curiously. Just think curiously. And I enjoyed it so much more.

[Matt Koplik]

And now you like straight porn.

[John Wascavage]

I do, yeah. Good for you. No, I like my stepmom ate my ass.

[Matt Koplik]

Now I like my aunt in law jerked me off.

[John Wascavage]

God, yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

My bro, my older brother's best friend and I did touch football naked. It's all fun and games until someone gets bukkake.

[John Wascavage]

You know, as Karen Walker said, in the end, we all finish ourselves up.

[Matt Koplik]

We all finish ourselves off. Yeah.

[John Wascavage]

At the end, we all finish ourselves off.

[Matt Koplik]

Karen Walker, she's the only Karen that we all love.

[John Wascavage]

I know. Poet Laureate.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah, Poet Laureate. Okay. Anything else you want to say, John?

[John Wascavage]

No, just. Thank you so much for having me. It's been such a pleasure.

[Matt Koplik]

It's been such a pleasure. This, I think might be. This will be the second longest episode of Broadway Breakdown. I don't listen. Part of me is like, I'm sure I could cut stuff. I'm also lazy now.

[John Wascavage]

You know what? I. I support it. Thank you. Let the fans trudge their way through our rambling. So.

[Matt Koplik]

But here's the thing. Every time. So every time I post about a long episode and I make like a self deprecating joke about it, I have listeners message me and they'll be like, why are you doing that? We know what we signed up for. And they're like. And in fact like the only thing.

[John Wascavage]

Keeping you short for those many years, dear listeners, was me going, matt, Matt, we care now we can't put out a two hour podcast. We can't do that.

[Matt Koplik]

I was wrong.

[John Wascavage]

See, I made a snap judgment. I was wrong.

[Matt Koplik]

You sure were. And I'm so glad that someone as tall and statuesque as you can know that.

[John Wascavage]

Oh, please.

[Matt Koplik]

Despite the fact that you weren't picked when you were 11.

[John Wascavage]

Speaking of gay trauma.

[Matt Koplik]

Truly the most. It's fine, John. This has been delightful.

[John Wascavage]

That's been such a treat.

[Matt Koplik]

Where can the listeners find you? If you want them to find you, you.

[John Wascavage]

They could find me at John Wascavage. J O H N W A S C A V A G E on I believe all platforms except Venmo. It's at John. You don't need throw a couple bucks her way. No, but yeah, I think it's at John with Scavage on like Twitter and Instagram.

[Matt Koplik]

Amazing. I'm on Instagram only at Matt Koplick. Usual spelling. If you like the podcast, give us a nice 5 star rating or review. We haven't gotten either in a little while. I'm.

[John Wascavage]

I'm.

[Matt Koplik]

And we were getting a whole bunch during April and May and to the point that Alan Seals of BPN was like, what are you doing that's getting so many reviews? Because they, they see all of them and it was like. I was like, I was ready to have you teach a seminar or something. Like, it was crazy. Yeah. But it's just something that I read them on the pod and they. They write the good ones. And I know a few of you have been sort of saying you wanted to, but were getting nervous about it. You want to make it right. And I get that. That you want to have it sound exactly as you want it to, I appreciate. But as I said before, it always helps with the algorithm, helps people discover us. The way I always describe it is like, if you're looking for something on grubhub to order that night and you see the rating, you're going to go with something that has 500 ratings at, you know, four and a half stars, as opposed to something with, you know, 4.8 at 200 ratings.

[John Wascavage]

So true. It's so, so true. That is. That is such a universal human thing.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah, exactly. You'll look at the stars and you go, oh, it's five stars, but with 12 ratings, then you'll see something has 4.5, but with a thousand ratings, you go going with that one.

[John Wascavage]

Yep.

[Matt Koplik]

So that's. That's what it is. People will trust. The more ratings we have, the more reviews we have. So we appreciate that. Also, make sure to join the Discord Channel guys. We are over 80 members now. It's been active for almost three weeks. Yep. And a lot of fun. You guys are so much fun on there, talking about all the Broadway news, talking about the podcast. We also now have added a new channel. We're. You can promote something you're working on, whether it's a show or a project, whatever. Yeah, These guys are fun. They're fun times to be around. And they also really enjoyed this mash reference in this week's episode for seven Brides of Seven Brothers. I think what I said, we were talking about Bollywood, and then I mentioned.

[John Wascavage]

Oh, gosh.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah. And then I mentioned Catherine McPhee's Bollywood number.

[John Wascavage]

Oh, gosh.

[Matt Koplik]

Yep, yep, yep.

[John Wascavage]

Forgot about that in all those moments.

[Matt Koplik]

Yep. And as I said in that episode, we all watched that number and we said, second season for Please fade in on a girl.

[John Wascavage]

Yeah. We all make mistakes. Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

And. Oh, and again, July 27th, this will be two days after this episode drops. Broadway Con. Me and the theater lovers talking about one of those three shows. Carousel, Merrily We Roll along, and Little Shop of Whores. Little Shop of Whores. John, we close out with the diva, as you well know. What diva do you want to close out with?

[John Wascavage]

You know, wait, does it have to Be a musical theater diva.

[Matt Koplik]

We like to keep it in house, but, I mean, is there someone you really want?

[John Wascavage]

I don't know. Who's a diva? For me right now, it doesn't have.

[Matt Koplik]

To be a literal diva.

[John Wascavage]

No, I know. I'm trying to think of, like, who really got my goat. Who gathered the girls this season. Honestly, I just. My brain just keeps going back to Carrie Young.

[Matt Koplik]

And she doesn't sing.

[John Wascavage]

I know. And that's the thing. She doesn't sing.

[Matt Koplik]

It doesn't have to be this season. What's a deep dive? Give me a little deep dive.

[John Wascavage]

I know. Who's a good deep dive diva. Marilyn Monroe. Does anyone ever said her?

[Matt Koplik]

I think you might have said her five years ago.

[John Wascavage]

I don't think so. We've.

[Matt Koplik]

We. I can tell you for a fact we've had her once.

[John Wascavage]

Okay, but.

[Matt Koplik]

No, but it was somewhere in the last five. Five years. Five or seven years.

[John Wascavage]

Okay. Why can't I think of any other.

[Matt Koplik]

I've known you for eight years.

[John Wascavage]

I know. I was thinking. I was thinking that actually yesterday I was like, oh, my God. We started the pod in 2017, summer of 2017.

[Matt Koplik]

But we had known each other for, like. Yeah, six to nine months by that point.

[John Wascavage]

Oh, my gosh. Bonkers.

[Matt Koplik]

I know.

[John Wascavage]

Time flies. Who's a diva? Who's a diva? Why can't I think of literally any diva? What is going on? Oh, my God.

[Matt Koplik]

What's going on?

[John Wascavage]

You know what? Let's go to. Why can't I think of her name? Gwen Verdon. Gwen Verdon. What just happened to me?

[Matt Koplik]

Why did I. Why did all.

[John Wascavage]

I've never talked for three hours.

[Matt Koplik]

That's why. You want to know why? Because you were gonna say Riri ZZ.

[John Wascavage]

I was gonna say Riri ZZ and.

[Matt Koplik]

Then I was like, no, Riri Zelzel. And you're like, I can't give Matt the satisfaction. Prove to David Sims that Renee Zellweger can sing. That pompous beta male. I like David a lot. I just. I did. I will not let him stand on that opinion.

[John Wascavage]

You know what?

[Matt Koplik]

Let's.

[John Wascavage]

Let's say riri's easy because she has been getting kind of a moment recently with that. That gorgeous read on All Stars. Nine of the names on every. The name on everybody's lips is gonna be jinx.

[Matt Koplik]

But, yes, let's do riri because I like her. You like her. She's having the moment. The moment is her. The moment is now.

[John Wascavage]

Yes.

[Matt Koplik]

And, David Sims, you're a very smart critic, and you're very nice man, but you are so fucking wrong. He also doesn't like Rob Marshall, and he won't give Chicago the time of day deserves. And I just gotta say, he's. He's. He's a. He's a boy. He's a film boy, so he's big on Spielberg, so he's like, the west side Story remake is a masterpiece. I'm like, the west side story remake is 40 minutes too long, and they fuck up the last third of the movie. And the choreography is fine, but that's a story for another day. Chicago is airtight and perfect, and I don't want to hear any arguments against that.

[John Wascavage]

Agreed? Agreed. 100%.

[Matt Koplik]

Airtight and perfect. It's the best movie musical of the century.

[John Wascavage]

Still. Yes, without a doubt.

[Matt Koplik]

Without a doubt. Telling that to the world. Anyway, we're gonna do riri. Riri's gonna close us out. All right, thank you so much for listening, guys. Take it away, riri.

[John Wascavage]

Who says that murder's not enough?

[Matt Koplik]

And who, in case she doesn't hang.

[John Wascavage]

Can say she started with a banger? Roxy Heart.