THE BOYS IN THE BAND w/ John Wascavage - Broadway Breakdown

Transcript

Matt Koplik (0:06)

In olden days a glimpse of stocky was looked on with something shocking now.

John Wascavage (0:12)

Heaven knows Anything goes.

Matt Koplik (0:28)

Anything goes Anything hello all you theater lovers both out and proud and on the DL. And welcome back to Broadway Breakdown, a podcast discussing the history und legacy of American theater's most exclusive address, Broadway. This series is called Problematic Question Mark, covering shows you're mad at and their possible redemption. I am your host, Matt Koplik, the least famous and most opinionated of all the Broadway podcast hosts.

John Wascavage (1:01)

And.

Matt Koplik (1:01)

And with me today is a giant sunt. That's a C with a sedilla to quote the play we're talking about today. You know him, you all hate him. Hasn't been seen in two years, and we're so angry he's back. Please welcome John with Scavage.

John Wascavage (1:19)

I feel kind of like Rita Repulsa. Just like, just climbing out of that hole, which. I mean, climbing out of the hole.

Matt Koplik (1:30)

I've seen you do it before.

John Wascavage (1:31)

Hey, you know, but enough about my birthday, okay?

Matt Koplik (1:34)

Enough about your birthday. Enough about the after party for Omari at the Eagle.

John Wascavage (1:38)

Oh, God. What I wouldn't have, like, given to be a fly on the wall at that after party.

Matt Koplik (1:43)

Oh, I'm sure it was insane.

John Wascavage (1:45)

Well, I'm sure the fly would have been covered in a lot of bodily fluids to be a fly on that wall.

Matt Koplik (1:52)

Absolutely. You would have been stuck to the wall. Honey. Honey boo boo child. John, thank you so much for coming back to this podcast.

John Wascavage (2:00)

It's so nice to be back. It feels a little bit like returning home from war, but instead of, like, bullets and enemies, just theater.

Matt Koplik (2:15)

I mean, isn't it, in a way, isn't it the same?

Summary

Broadway Breakdown Podcast
Episode: THE BOYS IN THE BAND w/ John Wascavage
Host: Matt Koplik
Guest: John Wascavage
Release: July 25, 2024

Episode Overview

This episode of Broadway Breakdown, hosted by the irreverent and passionate Matt Koplik with returning guest and theater mainstay John Wascavage, dives into Mart Crowley’s seminal queer play, The Boys in the Band. In his "Problematic Question Mark" series finale, Matt explores why the play, often accused of perpetuating negative stereotypes about gay men and mired in debate since its 1968 premiere, deserves reexamination. Through their signature blend of deep-dive analysis, historical context, foul-mouthed humor, and lived experience, Matt and John grapple with the show’s legacy, its criticisms, its complicated humanity, and its place in the queer theatrical canon.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

Opening Banter & The Boys' Reputations (00:28 – 04:57)

Matt welcomes John back with their characteristic raunchy, campy rapport, comparing the emotional trenches of theater to the warfare of queer life.
John jokes about his history with Boys in the Band, having only recently watched the infamous 1970 film adaptation, preferring it over the Ryan Murphy remake for its rawness and historical authenticity.
Both Matt and John discuss their entry points: John as a first-timer, Matt via his father, who’d introduced him to the play’s film because of the witty dialogue and sharply drawn characters.

“I'm very glad to be dipping my toes into homosexuality for the first time.”
— John Wascavage (04:54)

The Play’s Creation, Playwright, and Place in History (17:34 – 36:14)

Mark Crowley, inspired to write honestly about queer life by a New York Times essay urging playwrights to stop coding gay life into straight characters, wrote Boys in the Band in a mansion while broke and depressed.
He based lead character Michael on his own experiences of Catholic guilt and self-loathing in the oppressive, closeted queer scene of 1960s Hollywood and New York.
Crowley faced initial industry resistance. Producer Richard Barr championed the play, despite Edward Albee’s (closeted himself) objections that it would harm the gay community by spotlighting their “worst” qualities.
Notably, the Off-Broadway original starred a cast with several closeted actors; several would later die of AIDS.

"He wrote it from a place of anger, because he was looking around and seeing all the raids and discrimination ... Even at our most joyous, it’s when we retreat to be with our chosen family.”
— Matt Koplik (29:45)

The Plot & Character Breakdown (36:33 – 65:01)

The play unfolds over one night at a birthday party among a group of gay men in pre-Stonewall New York. The hosts systematically unpack:

The Characters:

Michael: Neurotic host, self-loathing, Crowley’s stand-in.
Donald: Michael’s ex, searching for psychiatric help. Represents the hopeless therapy-for-cure mindset.
Emory: Flamboyant, effeminate soul, the group’s “queen,” both subject and master of bitchy banter.
Larry & Hank: A couple at odds over monogamy—Hank, formerly married to a woman, wants stability; Larry craves sexual freedom.
Bernard: The only Black character, more reserved, close to Emory.
Alan: Michael’s ostensibly straight college friend, drops in fracturing the group’s camaraderie and forcing long-standing secrets and resentments into the open.
Cowboy: The dim-witted hustler, Emory’s gift for Harold.
Harold: Birthday guest of honor, witty, acerbic, self-aware, and Michael’s match in bitchiness.

Dynamics & Key Moments:

The group’s humor and mutual “reading” expose internalized shame, racism, effeminacy, masculinity, and the search for intimacy.
Notable: Bernard and Emory’s dynamic—a mutual ribbing rooted in their respective social statuses (race, femininity) but laced with genuine care (52:46).
The party unravels with Alan’s arrival, leading to Michael’s psychological breakdown and the infamous, devastating phone call “game.”

“You are a sad and pathetic man. You’re a homosexual and you don’t want to be. But there’s nothing you can do to change it—not all your prayers to God, not all the analysis you can buy in all the years you’ve got left.”
— Harold (Leonard Frey), quoting the play (146:18)

Notable Quotes & Moments

“When you are family, it’s unconditional love. ... Michael ruins my birthday, but he’s a messy bitch who loves drama, and I love him.”
— John Wascavage (157:15)
“For Katherine Vandergrift, why do you find it such an ugly subject, Catherine? ... The reason why more people are coming out is because they feel more comfortable in their skin.”
— Matt Koplik, referencing historical criticism and its modern echoes (202:22)

The “Problematic” Question: Critique and Legacy (131:13 – End)

Matt and John examine charges that the play is irredeemably negative or damaging, noting that only Michael truly embodies self-hate—most other characters are at some level of acceptance or peace.
The pair compare the original reception (immediate acclaim, followed by gay community backlash post-Stonewall) to the 2018 Ryan Murphy revival’s all-out cast and more nuanced modern perspective.
They argue that today’s desire for sanitized, purely positive representation flattens the diversity and messiness of queer experience. The play’s messiness, pain, and “nostalgic trashiness” become essential historical truths.

“There’s a difference between problematic and just being uncomfortable. ... The world’s telling you that being queer is not okay. You have to show the struggle.”
— Matt Koplik (198:54)

On the Importance of Messy Representation

Boys in the Band is a radial act of honesty for its time and still resonates for its acknowledgment of trauma, self-loathing, and chosen family.
The conversation draws parallels to current trans representation, internet outrage cycles, and the way new generations grapple with art they perceive as “not for them.”

On Alan: Is He Gay or Straight? (160:41 – 170:03)

Alan’s presence and ambiguous motivations (and his tearful call home to his wife after pressure in ‘the game’) remain a subject of debate, with Matt and John both leaning toward interpreting him as a repressed gay man who cannot accept himself in the boys’ world.

Legacy & Final Thoughts (196:05 – End)

The play’s influence is cited by Terrence McNally (Love! Valour! Compassion!), Candis Cayne, and others as “someone had to go first.”
John points out that art is never perfect, but its “problematic” qualities are part of its humanity and historical context.
Both agree: dismissing the play as mere doom-and-gloom is reductive. Its humanity, sharpness, and deep hurt are essential. It’s foundational queer art, with modern queer canon standing on its shoulders.

Timestamps for Key Segments

00:28–04:57 – Opening banter and intro to Boys in the Band
17:34–36:14 – Mark Crowley’s journey and play’s background
36:33–65:01 – Plot summary, character breakdown, and original production context
83:18–101:04 – The Play’s dark turn: The “telephone game” centerpiece
146:16–147:21 – Harold’s climactic read of Michael
152:10–159:14 – Chosen family, mess, and unconditional love
196:05–200:00 – Historical perspective, missing “canon,” and the price of honesty
202:22–204:00 – Reading a period letter to the NY Times, ongoing cultural cycles

Tone & Style

Unfiltered, witty, sometimes profane, with affectionate ribbing and deep compassion.
Approaches serious topics—AIDS, trauma, homophobia, art and legacy—with a blend of historical literacy and personal vulnerability.
A celebration of queer history by theater nerds for theater nerds, with a self-deprecatory edge (“You are a mug cake, sweetie”).

Further Recommendations From Matt & John

Read William Goldman’s The Season for contemporary accounts of Boys in the Band.
Watch the 1970 Friedkin film version if possible, for historical context and sharper humor than the Ryan Murphy remake.
Recognize the continuing relevance of messy, complex queer art and resist the temptation to flatten history for comfort.

Memorable Closing

“It’s almost as if Michael wants someone to tell him, ‘I hate you.’ Instead Harold says, ‘I understand you. And you know that I do. And believe it or not, you did not burn everything to the ground...’”
— Matt Koplik (159:06)

Closing Diva: Renée “Riri” Zellweger – because sometimes you need a little razzle dazzle and a queer icon with a cackle.

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