Broadway Breakdown – "THE GOLDEN APPLE" w/ Alex Weisman
Host: Matt Koplik
Guest: Alex Weisman
Date: December 8, 2022
Overview
In this episode, host Matt Koplik invites actor Alex Weisman to explore The Golden Apple, a 1954 musical that famously made the leap from off-Broadway to Broadway. The conversation dives into the show’s history, its groundbreaking musical structure, why it’s so difficult to summarize, and reflects on the elusive nature of cult musicals. The episode is rich with playful banter, theater-nerd digressions, and incisive commentary about what makes musicals stick or fade. Expect everything from cast album deep cuts to thoughts on the broader off-Broadway ecosystem, all delivered with Matt’s signature mix of irreverence and insight.
Main Themes & Purpose
- To explore The Golden Apple’s unique place in musical theater history as an early sung-through musical and off-Broadway-to-Broadway pioneer.
- To discuss its plot origins, esoteric appeal, and why—despite its innovations—it failed to become a perennial cult classic.
- To use The Golden Apple as a launching point for a broader examination of what makes off-Broadway and cult musicals thrive (or not).
- To celebrate musical theater nerddom through playful games, personal histories, and sharp, candid opinions.
Key Discussion Points
1. Personal Histories with the Show
[05:07–12:39]
- Alex Weisman: Only show on Matt’s list he didn’t already know inside out. “Given the prompt, and being a nerd...I was like, ‘Yeah, I love homework!’” (04:21)
- Both recount their cast album collecting days, having hunted for obscure titles in used record stores and on eBay.
- Alex: “I want to own my music, and I value my iTunes playlists and song counts like they’re my children.” (09:17)
- Shared nerd pride: “I am so sorry for whatever bar you and I get drinks at someday, because everyone around us is gonna be like, ‘Can you turn the gay down?’” (10:18)
2. What is The Golden Apple and Why Is It So Hard to Follow?
[14:56–27:11]
- The Golden Apple retells the Iliad & Odyssey, resetting them in early 20th-century Washington state post-Spanish-American War.
- “The first act, there’s very little plot...two major things happen over the course of an hour. Everything else is just setting up for Helen leaving town. Second act, a lot of stuff happens but it all doesn’t end up mattering in the end.” – Matt (17:35)
- Both admit to struggling with the storyline and character names, despite significant prep.
- Noted for being the first sung-through musical in the modern Broadway sense (non-operetta, all music/no dialogue).
3. The Score: Musical Brilliance Meets Structural Oddity
[19:59–24:53]
- Matt compares the score to a hybrid of Candide, 110 in the Shade, and Americana with Aaron Copland flavor.
- Alex: “I think it is far more musically successful than it is structurally.” (21:15)
- Songs referenced: “Guna Guna” (“the silliest of silly”), “Cirsei Calypso” (Act II fun), “Lazy Afternoon” (the breakout standard).
- Matt on working out to the score: “This might be the oddest score to work out to. More so than Les Mis. More so than Showboat…on the treadmill and I’m hearing ‘What’s that flying through the air...’” (21:54)
- Both agree the score is eclectic and sometimes thrilling, but can drag dramatically: “I feel like time has slowed down.”
4. Plot Breakdown – Such As It Is
[27:11–47:02]
- Alex valiantly attempts a plot summary; Matt offers course correction.
- Helen, an ambiguous beauty marrying for money, is the center of local attention and sexual energy. She runs away with Paris (who “only dances,” a running joke) after being seduced via baking contest and sinuous musical numbers.
- “Can we talk for a minute about the titular golden apple and how little it has to do with the plot?” – Alex (31:51)
- The “apple” barely matters, just a plot device to spark all the action.
- Act II: Ulysses and the men trek to retrieve Helen, facing a series of allegorical city-life challenges; it takes “ten years.” Ensemble gets whittled down as men are lost to urban vices.
- Ends with return to small town and ambiguous “starting over” for Ulysses and Penelope.
5. Why Didn’t The Golden Apple Catch On?
[61:25–80:56]
- Despite critical acclaim off-Broadway, it played only four months on Broadway.
- Barriers: high vocal demands (especially Penelope), the “heady”/intellectual distance of the script, lack of emotional hooks compared to other cultish shows.
- Matt: “There’s nothing in Golden Apple for me that gives me an emotional in. It’s all just very at. It’s all admiration…” (77:08)
- Camp or earnest? Alex: “If it were more camp, we’d be able to sissy that walk about it more. If it were more earnest, then it would be in everyone’s wedding playlist. But it sort of doesn’t succeed at either enough to qualify.” (78:32)
- Comparison to Sideshow and other “so-bad-it’s-good” cult musicals: this one never tips enough into either direction.
6. Off-Broadway, Broadway, and the Cult Musical Ecosystem
[60:50–74:12]
- Matt: “Once you’re on Broadway, the expectation of what you’re supposed to be changes. You can’t just be challenging, you can’t just be smart. You have to be all of that as well as palatable, and that’s a really hard thing to do.” (74:12)
- Discussion of what makes a musical “off-Broadway” in spirit vs. just geography or scale.
- Reflection on the modern off-Broadway-to-Broadway pipeline and how commercial pressures change the DNA of a piece.
7. Digressions, Games, and Theatre-nerd Tangents
- Frequent side-quests about cast album collecting, “underappreciated” cast recordings, DVD hoarding, and the queer-nerd experience.
- Notable asides: “Angela Lansbury could do Sweeney Todd, but could Angela Lansbury do Waitress?” (33:14)
- The enduring power of off-Broadway (Alex: “I still love seeing an off-Broadway musical…I just want to be told a great story with a point of view.”) (91:13)
- Nerd-out sections on favorite scores and the Hamilton/fun home/Kimberly Akimbo “musicals for indoor kids” phenomenon.
Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments
- “The Golden Apple…might even be the first piece completely to transfer from Off Broadway to Broadway. So you gotta include the first.” – Matt (03:08)
- “Helen is always willing. I said, this song [‘Lazy Afternoon’] should be more well known. I need drag queens to do this song.” – Alex (37:17)
- “It’s an opera in the very literal sense – no dialogue, completely sung – but it is not an opera because it is very much a musical.” – Matt (19:59)
- “It feels like Hector walked, so Hadestown can run.” – Alex (24:09)
- “If you love something…and it doesn’t matter what anyone else can say about it, they’ll come up to you being like ‘well, I hate that show!’ — it’s like, okay. I’m sorry you don’t like it.” – Matt (132:53)
- “There are so many other kinds of things that I love…In so many ways, you would think I would love The Golden Apple because I love intelligent works…But as I said earlier, I more admire it than love it.” – Matt (128:06)
- On snobbery vs. taste: “When you are so confident in your taste, when you know what you like and why you like it…that comes from a lot of objectivity…but there’s also just a confidence in your own taste that puts a lot of people off.” – Matt (132:53)
Essential Timestamps
- Personal Histories, Music Collecting, and Nerd Credentials: 05:07–12:39
- The Plot (Attempted): 14:56–47:02
- Score & Style Analysis: 19:59–24:53
- Camp/Earnestness In-Between-ness: 78:19–80:56
- Why Some Musicals Endure as Cult Hits: 75:13–80:56
- Discussion on Off-Broadway Culture and Transference: 60:50–74:12
- Games (“Alter Egos” and “Six Degrees of Sally Murphy/Janine Tesori”): 102:13–144:35
- Reflections on Musical Taste & Theatre Discourse: 128:06–137:12
Closing Section
The show ends with a spirited round of musical theater nerd games, including staged brain-teasers connecting actors, characters, and composers via “six degrees” logic. The conversation distills the episode’s core theme: The Golden Apple’s legacy is both significant (as a trailblazer of the sung-through form and off-Broadway movement) and obscure (because of its cold intelligence and tricky structure).
Matt and Alex agree: While the show is worthy of respect, it’s more fascinating than lovable. Its lack of emotional accessibility, challenging music, and neither-camp-nor-earnest tone keep it locked away from true cult status. The final note? Go check out the full-length “Theater Under the Stars” cast recording if you want the real flavor — and maybe watch the 1977 TV adaptation for some sly fun.
Additional Highlights
- Musical Playing Recommendations: “If you want to listen to [Golden Apple], don’t listen to the Broadway cast recording – it is super truncated…There is a [TUTS] cast recording and it is the whole score.” (120:01)
- Fun Digression: Who should direct the movie version? Both agree: Only Wes Anderson could bring the right oddball tone. (87:59)
- Best Summation of the Show’s Appeal: “It is intelligent. It’s not always effective. It is a musical that people — aficionados — love.” – Alex (126:35)
- Sign-off Diva: The episode closes with a tribute to Lindsay Mendez (Helen in the Encores! production), connecting the past to the present.
TL;DR
The Golden Apple is a smart, weird, and somewhat cold musical that was a forerunner in many ways, but its lack of emotional resonance and idiosyncratic style kept it from entering the true “cult classic” pantheon. Matt and Alex’s detailed, passionate, and hilarious discussion will delight hardcore theater fans — and might inspire a rare fresh listen to this oddball artifact of musical theater history.