THE GOLDEN APPLE w/ Alex Weisman

Summary

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Broadway Breakdown – "THE GOLDEN APPLE" w/ Alex Weisman

Host: Matt Koplik
Guest: Alex Weisman
Date: December 8, 2022

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Overview

In this episode, host Matt Koplik invites actor Alex Weisman to explore The Golden Apple, a 1954 musical that famously made the leap from off-Broadway to Broadway. The conversation dives into the show’s history, its groundbreaking musical structure, why it’s so difficult to summarize, and reflects on the elusive nature of cult musicals. The episode is rich with playful banter, theater-nerd digressions, and incisive commentary about what makes musicals stick or fade. Expect everything from cast album deep cuts to thoughts on the broader off-Broadway ecosystem, all delivered with Matt’s signature mix of irreverence and insight.

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Main Themes & Purpose

• To explore The Golden Apple’s unique place in musical theater history as an early sung-through musical and off-Broadway-to-Broadway pioneer.
• To discuss its plot origins, esoteric appeal, and why—despite its innovations—it failed to become a perennial cult classic.
• To use The Golden Apple as a launching point for a broader examination of what makes off-Broadway and cult musicals thrive (or not).
• To celebrate musical theater nerddom through playful games, personal histories, and sharp, candid opinions.

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Key Discussion Points

1. Personal Histories with the Show

[05:07–12:39]

• Alex Weisman: Only show on Matt’s list he didn’t already know inside out. “Given the prompt, and being a nerd...I was like, ‘Yeah, I love homework!’” (04:21)
• Both recount their cast album collecting days, having hunted for obscure titles in used record stores and on eBay.
• Alex: “I want to own my music, and I value my iTunes playlists and song counts like they’re my children.” (09:17)
• Shared nerd pride: “I am so sorry for whatever bar you and I get drinks at someday, because everyone around us is gonna be like, ‘Can you turn the gay down?’” (10:18)

2. What is The Golden Apple and Why Is It So Hard to Follow?

[14:56–27:11]

• The Golden Apple retells the Iliad & Odyssey, resetting them in early 20th-century Washington state post-Spanish-American War.
• “The first act, there’s very little plot...two major things happen over the course of an hour. Everything else is just setting up for Helen leaving town. Second act, a lot of stuff happens but it all doesn’t end up mattering in the end.” – Matt (17:35)
• Both admit to struggling with the storyline and character names, despite significant prep.
• Noted for being the first sung-through musical in the modern Broadway sense (non-operetta, all music/no dialogue).

3. The Score: Musical Brilliance Meets Structural Oddity

[19:59–24:53]

• Matt compares the score to a hybrid of Candide, 110 in the Shade, and Americana with Aaron Copland flavor.
• Alex: “I think it is far more musically successful than it is structurally.” (21:15)
• Songs referenced: “Guna Guna” (“the silliest of silly”), “Cirsei Calypso” (Act II fun), “Lazy Afternoon” (the breakout standard).
• Matt on working out to the score: “This might be the oddest score to work out to. More so than Les Mis. More so than Showboat…on the treadmill and I’m hearing ‘What’s that flying through the air...’” (21:54)
• Both agree the score is eclectic and sometimes thrilling, but can drag dramatically: “I feel like time has slowed down.”

4. Plot Breakdown – Such As It Is

[27:11–47:02]

• Alex valiantly attempts a plot summary; Matt offers course correction.
• Helen, an ambiguous beauty marrying for money, is the center of local attention and sexual energy. She runs away with Paris (who “only dances,” a running joke) after being seduced via baking contest and sinuous musical numbers.
• “Can we talk for a minute about the titular golden apple and how little it has to do with the plot?” – Alex (31:51)
• The “apple” barely matters, just a plot device to spark all the action.
• Act II: Ulysses and the men trek to retrieve Helen, facing a series of allegorical city-life challenges; it takes “ten years.” Ensemble gets whittled down as men are lost to urban vices.
• Ends with return to small town and ambiguous “starting over” for Ulysses and Penelope.

5. Why Didn’t The Golden Apple Catch On?

[61:25–80:56]

• Despite critical acclaim off-Broadway, it played only four months on Broadway.
• Barriers: high vocal demands (especially Penelope), the “heady”/intellectual distance of the script, lack of emotional hooks compared to other cultish shows.
• Matt: “There’s nothing in Golden Apple for me that gives me an emotional in. It’s all just very at. It’s all admiration…” (77:08)
• Camp or earnest? Alex: “If it were more camp, we’d be able to sissy that walk about it more. If it were more earnest, then it would be in everyone’s wedding playlist. But it sort of doesn’t succeed at either enough to qualify.” (78:32)
• Comparison to Sideshow and other “so-bad-it’s-good” cult musicals: this one never tips enough into either direction.

6. Off-Broadway, Broadway, and the Cult Musical Ecosystem

[60:50–74:12]

• Matt: “Once you’re on Broadway, the expectation of what you’re supposed to be changes. You can’t just be challenging, you can’t just be smart. You have to be all of that as well as palatable, and that’s a really hard thing to do.” (74:12)
• Discussion of what makes a musical “off-Broadway” in spirit vs. just geography or scale.
• Reflection on the modern off-Broadway-to-Broadway pipeline and how commercial pressures change the DNA of a piece.

7. Digressions, Games, and Theatre-nerd Tangents

• Frequent side-quests about cast album collecting, “underappreciated” cast recordings, DVD hoarding, and the queer-nerd experience.
• Notable asides: “Angela Lansbury could do Sweeney Todd, but could Angela Lansbury do Waitress?” (33:14)
• The enduring power of off-Broadway (Alex: “I still love seeing an off-Broadway musical…I just want to be told a great story with a point of view.”) (91:13)
• Nerd-out sections on favorite scores and the Hamilton/fun home/Kimberly Akimbo “musicals for indoor kids” phenomenon.

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• “The Golden Apple…might even be the first piece completely to transfer from Off Broadway to Broadway. So you gotta include the first.” – Matt (03:08)
• “Helen is always willing. I said, this song [‘Lazy Afternoon’] should be more well known. I need drag queens to do this song.” – Alex (37:17)
• “It’s an opera in the very literal sense – no dialogue, completely sung – but it is not an opera because it is very much a musical.” – Matt (19:59)
• “It feels like Hector walked, so Hadestown can run.” – Alex (24:09)
• “If you love something…and it doesn’t matter what anyone else can say about it, they’ll come up to you being like ‘well, I hate that show!’ — it’s like, okay. I’m sorry you don’t like it.” – Matt (132:53)
• “There are so many other kinds of things that I love…In so many ways, you would think I would love The Golden Apple because I love intelligent works…But as I said earlier, I more admire it than love it.” – Matt (128:06)
• On snobbery vs. taste: “When you are so confident in your taste, when you know what you like and why you like it…that comes from a lot of objectivity…but there’s also just a confidence in your own taste that puts a lot of people off.” – Matt (132:53)

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Essential Timestamps

• Personal Histories, Music Collecting, and Nerd Credentials: 05:07–12:39
• The Plot (Attempted): 14:56–47:02
• Score & Style Analysis: 19:59–24:53
• Camp/Earnestness In-Between-ness: 78:19–80:56
• Why Some Musicals Endure as Cult Hits: 75:13–80:56
• Discussion on Off-Broadway Culture and Transference: 60:50–74:12
• Games (“Alter Egos” and “Six Degrees of Sally Murphy/Janine Tesori”): 102:13–144:35
• Reflections on Musical Taste & Theatre Discourse: 128:06–137:12

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Closing Section

The show ends with a spirited round of musical theater nerd games, including staged brain-teasers connecting actors, characters, and composers via “six degrees” logic. The conversation distills the episode’s core theme: The Golden Apple’s legacy is both significant (as a trailblazer of the sung-through form and off-Broadway movement) and obscure (because of its cold intelligence and tricky structure).

Matt and Alex agree: While the show is worthy of respect, it’s more fascinating than lovable. Its lack of emotional accessibility, challenging music, and neither-camp-nor-earnest tone keep it locked away from true cult status. The final note? Go check out the full-length “Theater Under the Stars” cast recording if you want the real flavor — and maybe watch the 1977 TV adaptation for some sly fun.

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Additional Highlights

• Musical Playing Recommendations: “If you want to listen to [Golden Apple], don’t listen to the Broadway cast recording – it is super truncated…There is a [TUTS] cast recording and it is the whole score.” (120:01)
• Fun Digression: Who should direct the movie version? Both agree: Only Wes Anderson could bring the right oddball tone. (87:59)
• Best Summation of the Show’s Appeal: “It is intelligent. It’s not always effective. It is a musical that people — aficionados — love.” – Alex (126:35)
• Sign-off Diva: The episode closes with a tribute to Lindsay Mendez (Helen in the Encores! production), connecting the past to the present.

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TL;DR

The Golden Apple is a smart, weird, and somewhat cold musical that was a forerunner in many ways, but its lack of emotional resonance and idiosyncratic style kept it from entering the true “cult classic” pantheon. Matt and Alex’s detailed, passionate, and hilarious discussion will delight hardcore theater fans — and might inspire a rare fresh listen to this oddball artifact of musical theater history.

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Transcript

[A]

Sam. Hello all theater lovers both out and proud and on the DL. And welcome back to Broadway Breakdown, a podcast discussing the history and legacy of American theater's most exclusive address, Broadway. This series is called the Big Move, and it is covering shows that were so successful off Broadway, they just had to transfer to the Great White Way and try some luck over there. I am your host, Matt Koplik, the least famous and most opinionated of all the Broadway podcast hosts. And with me today is an actor. You might have seen him displaying some magique in Harry Potter unt the Cursed Child back when it was two parts and when it became one part. He's seen it all. He's done it all. Please welcome to the pod Alex Weisman. Hi, Alex.

[B]

Hi, Matt.

[A]

How are you? I'm doing grand. How are you today?

[B]

I'm good. I'm just working on all of my pies just in case anybody asks me to have a contest.

[A]

That is a reference to what we're going to be talking about today, everybody. But we'll get to that. About 45 seconds. Okay, great. Do you actually bake, though?

[B]

No. I cooked a pie once during quarantine, but it was a no bake. It was like ice cream pie, but I definitely whipped cream into ice cream and then put it in a pretzel crust that I did make from scratch.

[A]

A pretzel crust that you made from scratch?

[B]

It was like pretzel and Ritz cracker crumbled. It was. It took a really long time. And then I was, like, alone with a pie, and it took me a week and a half to invite people over and be like, I need you to eat this pie. I don't like it. I need you to eat my pie.

[A]

Wow, that sounds like a grinder exchange. Please come over and eat my pie.

[B]

Please eat my pie.

[A]

Oh, I stress it for a week. Eat it, please. That's also innuendo. Probably going to be innuendo in this show as well. Alex, what show are we talking about today?

[B]

Well, we are talking about the Golden.

[A]

Apple, not the Bronze Apple, not the silver apple.

[B]

And we are talking about the Golden Apple, not because it's my favorite musical of all time, but because you asked me to.

[A]

Well, in fairness to me, I need. I need two points to defend myself. One, I. The. The in me was like, only big titles. Rent, dear Evan Hansen Hamilton. And those are all getting covered or have been covered at this point. But the elitist in me was like, I do have to include some other ones for historical context. And the Golden Apple, I really could not. Not include it.

[B]

Well, it's groundbreaking.

[A]

It's groundbreaking. And it's also. It is the. I believe it is the first musical to transfer from Off Broadway to Broadway. Might even be the first piece completely to transfer from Off Broadway to Broadway. So you gotta include the first. And then my other point of defense is that I did not reach out to you and twist your arm and say, alex, it's the Golden Apple, or it's nothing. I gave you the list, and I said, tell me the ones that you know. Tell me the ones that you are intrigued by and would like to learn more of. And I was ready for you to say, you know what? I know absolutely nothing about ain't misbehaving. Let's lean into that. Or, like, you know, what's a fave of mine? Hair. Like, just. I. It was. I just. The weeks were going, and everyone just kept saying, like, I could spend a week learning the Golden Apple, but I just don't want to. And then you blessed. You said, you know what? Without any prompt for me, said, I've always wanted to learn more about the Golden Apple. And I believe I wrote back in all caps. Oh, my God, thank you so much. You are a fucking dream.

[B]

Well, first of all, I'm insulted that you think I wouldn't know Ain't misbehaving.

[A]

Second, it was a hypothetic.

[B]

I will say, and this is not a brag, but it was the only show on your list that I didn't know incredibly well. And so given the prompt and being a nerd, and when the prompt is like, do you like homework? I was like, yeah, I love homework. I'll do homework. I'll spend a crazy afternoon and I'll learn about this musical that's sort of. I mean, I. I know we'll get into it, but, like, I think a lot more of the musicals that we see today.

[A]

Oh.

[B]

Owe a lot to the Golden Apple.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Than anyone knows. Than anyone.

[A]

Yeah. More than anybody could possibly know. Yeah. We'll absolutely get into all of it. So being a nerd.

[B]

Capital N. Nerd.

[A]

Capital N. Nerd. Yes. What is your history with this show, if any, as a nurse?

[B]

I. I wrote that down in my notes.

[A]

Good, good.

[B]

Because I knew that you would ask me that.

[A]

He. Alex does the homework, y'. All.

[B]

I had heard of the Golden Apple the same way everyone else has heard of the Golden Apple, which is. It's the opening lyric to the list title of show.

[A]

Yeah. And Monkeys and Playbills. Right?

[B]

Monkeys and Playbills.

[A]

And that is. How does that go?

[B]

Alex, do you know there's a golden apple and golden rainbow.

[A]

Golden boy.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And then. And then you. And then instinctively, I'll go, close your eyes. Because that's Susan's line right after that. Yeah. Gunkle of the pot. Ellsbury. When I told him we were doing Golden Apple, he. His text back was, there's the golden apple and gold.

[B]

Well, right. I mean, it's like, that's how I always knew about it. But I did already pre. Pre title show. I had the CD already. So I used to collect cast recordings. And my mom was really supportive of this. This hobby of mine. And so we would go to. Together. We would go to, you know, I'm old. So we grew up in the. I grew up in the heyday of compact discs.

[A]

Same, same, same, same. And so we had five towers, used bookstores, used CDs.

[B]

And we would hightail it to the one section of, like, soundtracks, cast recordings. And it didn't matter what it was. If we didn't have it, we'd buy it. So I'm assuming that I got the golden apple for $1.99 in the back of a CD warehouse. But more than that, my mom and I became addicted to ebay, and we would. Together, we would bid for used CDs of cast recordings. So I've got nine different recordings of the King. And I always. I always. When someone's like, what's the most obscure cast recording you had? I think of this Off Broadway opera called Bed and Sofa. Have you ever heard of it?

[A]

Yes. Yes, I have. So I'm like, Terry Klausner or Lonnie Ackerman. Who's in that? It's one of the Evitas, sweetie.

[B]

I can remember that.

[A]

But I had it too. I remember because it's the. The photo was. Whoever that Evita was. I'm pretty sure it's Terry Klausner. Klausner. And then two men, like, but in black and white. It's, like, very moody. It looks like the.

[B]

The COVID of The Jonathan Price 9 recording. If you. If you know that.

[A]

Yes, I know that. Isn't Elaine Page in that or it's. No, it's an Crumb. And Crumb is in that.

[B]

Oh, everyone's in that.

[A]

Everyone's in that. It's.

[B]

It's maybe my favorite recording of nine.

[A]

That's some. That's saying something. There are some good ones out there.

[B]

And I love nine. Nine's in my top 10. Well, I didn't even mean to say that like that. Ah.

[A]

I didn't even realize what you did until you said what you said.

[B]

So that was. So I had the Golden Apple. And then when I was in college, you know, gay little indoor boy that I was, I. And I buy. I own all of my music. I don't really use Spotify. I don't really use Apple music. I will buy a cash recording. Now, in the last, like, five, ten years, I've done more digital, but I'll. I want to own my music, and I value my, like, itunes playlists and. And song counts. Like. Like. Like they're my children. And I was, like, determined to create my. My personal playlist of my top 100 favorite show tunes. And in order to do that, I listened to my entire library, and I did it again. I'm in the middle of doing it again now. Through the pandemic. Our mutual friend Emily Maltby, she. She stayed with me for a week at one point, and she was like, I'm gonna do work in the living room. Like, cool, cool, cool. I'm gonna be listening to five recordings of Sweet Charity, Sweeney Todd, because I'm on the SWE part of my library. So if you're cool with that, this is going to work, because I'm like, I want to listen to every song and really curate for me and only me, my perfect playlist. And so I'm doing that now. And so because of that, I've listened to the Golden Apple at least twice. And, in fact, when I got this. I don't want to say assignment, but when I agreed to write this thesis paper for you, I went to my itunes library and I looked at my golden apple, and the whole thing has got. Every song has two listens. So I had listened to it exactly twice before, probably 2007, and then again in 2020. So that's the kind of nerd that you're dealing with.

[A]

Matt, I'm so excited. I don't know if I've ever really. Because, guys, this is sort of like a blind date for me and Alex. We. We've known each other more through sort of, like, social media and mutual friends.

[B]

So many mutual friends.

[A]

Yes. So many mutual friends. But we've never, like, really met met. And so this is like. This is like a blind friendship date today. And I'm just falling in love with you already. Like, you are speaking all of my nerd language. I'm like, I am so sorry for whatever bar you and I get drinks at someday, because everyone around us is gonna be like, can you turn the gay down? And like, simply discuss.

[B]

Probably Glass House, right?

[A]

Yeah, probably Glass House. Darren, I'm like, I'm so sorry that you have to listen to us dissect every single Ava Perrone as well as every single Effie White and Laurel and Dina. Which Dean is the best? What makes the blend work best for the dreams, Things like that. And then even more underground culture shit.

[B]

I love under. I love underground. I'm a mole person. Okay, so I'm looking now. I went to my musicals playlist. It's 19, 627 songs, and it's 42 days, 16 hours, 46 minutes and 19 seconds.

[A]

42 days, 16 and an hour. Something a minute. I wonder. I honestly wonder how many I have. I also don't have all of my Broadway catalog on my itunes. I could put it on here now because I got a new laptop with a whole bunch of memory, but I. My last laptop, I could not fit everything, so I had to get a hard drive. And so my entire musical theater catalog is on there. And I forget sometimes just how much I have. I. It's like I used to.

[B]

So I'm a. I'm also a bit. I don't know if you can tell that I'm ocd, but I used to have a word document alphabetized of all of it, but that stopped in, like, 2006 when I. When I moved out of Florida and went to. Went to college. But I have, as I'm assuming you do, a like, portable CD ROM port to plug into my.

[A]

I know. Yes, I do, because I also still have all my DVDs, and I will not give them up.

[B]

Well, I have my DVDs too. And because with Screen Actors Guild Award, we still get screeners every year. And I'm like, well, I guess, you know, PS4. I'll play a DVD.

[A]

Also, like, when the Apocalypse happens and there's no more WI Fi. I'm going to want to watch the first six seasons of Will and Grace. I'm going to want to watch my Sex and the City or Friends box sets. I'm going to need to watch my Enorme 30 rock box set.

[B]

No, I'm going to need to listen to Infinite Joy, songs of William Finn. And if it's out of Spotify, then everyone but me is fucked.

[A]

Anyway, moving on. So this is your history with Golden Apple.

[B]

Oh, right. We're talking about how you got here.

[A]

Jesus Christ.

[B]

So that's how I know about the Golden Apple.

[A]

Amazing. So my history with the Golden Apple is similar to yours, but maybe, like, vaguer. For the longer period of my life, as many people know, I became sort of a theater history nerd pretty young. My great grandfather died when I was 9 or 10 and left me this theater history book, I think. Yeah, here it is in context of all the other books I have. It's practically a pamphlet. It's.

[B]

You know, maybe I can walk you over to my. My musical theater theory bookshelf in a minute.

[A]

It's. Yeah, look, look. Look at this right behind me. It's not all musical theater, but it's. It's a solid two shelves. It's called the American. American Musical Theater Show Songs and Stars. And you know, it's. It's got a lot of stuff. It goes from, I believe, like the early 1900s, late 1800s. Yeah, it's like it starts from 8, 1898, with the fortune Teller, and then I believe it ends with Fiddler. But there is a piece on the Golden Apple in it and something about the photo. It's Kay Ballard as Helen whoever plays Paris, and then the Penelope and Stephen Douglas as Ulysses. And it's very. It's very much a publicity photo. There is no scene in the Golden Apple that. Where this happens. It's you.

[B]

Well, yeah, because Helen and Penelope don't share a bunch of screen stage time, do they?

[A]

The only time they share stage time is when there are other women on stage as well. Like anytime. Once Ulysses is there, like, that's. It's just Hitman. He and Penelope share stage time basically just alone. Helen's not there with them. It's. I think it's meant to sort of represent the moment where Paris shows up and is like trying to sell people the goods. But it's. It's a publicity photo, but that was all I really knew about it. And then not since Carrie, the Ken Mendelbaum book, which is one of like.

[B]

Yeah, it's in there.

[A]

Yeah, it's. Because it. It did flop and it's.

[B]

It's not in second act troubles.

[A]

It's not in second act trouble school because they didn't really have second act trouble. Second act Trouble is that is more about show, not just flops like shows that had a really rough go of getting to Broadway. So like Mack and Mabel.

[B]

What I also didn't know about Second Act Trouble is it's entirely primary documents. There's very little editorializing.

[A]

Yeah, it's mostly footnotes. It's similar to the Mary Rogers memoir Shy, where it's her memoir and then like Jesse Green's footnotes.

[B]

But I own it. I Haven't read it yet because I was not able to grab one in the first printing. I had to wait till the second printing.

[A]

Same, same, same. I'm halfway through it. I had to put it on pause while I went on with this podcast. But it's good. My biggest issue is that Jesse does not let a single page go by without giving you three footnotes on something. And some. And some of them are helpful. And sometimes it's like, I don't need to know where this store was in 1959. Mary definitely is very candid about everything, and it's nice to read. But this is to say Golden Apple, it is in Not Since Carrie, which is the book about, like, 50 years of Broadway flops. And Ken. I think Ken only writes about the shows he saw, but, I mean, he saw most of them. And he talks sort of about what worked, what didn't work, why something flopped. And the Golden Apple he describes as the, like, number one Broadway musical flop, where they did. In his words, they did everything right. It was Broadway that failed the Golden Apple. And I don't totally agree with him. I understand why it didn't catch on, but. But we'll talk about all that in a second. But with each sort of theater history book I've had, Opening Nights on Broadway by Steven Susskind, like, the Golden Apple was always just sort of there. And I never made it a point to learn more about it. I would always sort of read it. And then Encores did it in 2017. And so I went. I went to see that damn thing. And that was my first real exposure to the show.

[B]

I did not. I didn't live in New York yet in 2017. Um, I was in this great city of Chicago. But I. I obviously, in my. In my homework, saw, like, the B roll. And I know that Lindsay Mendez played Penelope.

[A]

She played Helen.

[B]

Played Helen. Okay, I'm gonna just admit now before we get into it, this musical is hard to follow. And I'm going to continue to mix up the characters names.

[A]

That's absolutely fine.

[B]

All the homework that I did, I still am. I still have struggled with the plot.

[A]

Girl. I have. I have the synopses up from the Masterworks from. Yeah, from Masterworks Broadway. I have both the Odyssey and the Iliad up I. The thing about this show is that the first act, there's very little plot. It's like two major things happen over the course of an hour. Everything else is just sort of setting up for Helen leaving town. And then the second act, a lot of stuff happens but it all doesn't end up mattering in the end. And it's all very esoteric, so it's not like it's hard to follow just because there's no real story story. It's all very episodic and very cerebral. So you've like, it ends and you go, okay, so what exactly happened, huh? But that's like. That's the Odyssey in Iliad as well, I suppose.

[B]

Right. Do you have this. Oh, God.

[A]

Oh, no.

[B]

This book. No. No legs. No jokes.

[A]

No.

[B]

No chance.

[A]

Is that about Oklahoma?

[B]

The quote is yes, but it is about sort of like the American musical from its. You know, here's the back. I'm just reading. The back follows the American musical from its rich and varied beginnings in European opera, American minstrel shows, burlesque and vaudeville through its many permutations to the present from, as author Sheldon Patankin puts it, La Boheme to Rent. Really gay. And he actually has two whole pages on the Golden Apple.

[A]

Oh, wow.

[B]

So I'm excited to sort of talk.

[A]

About that a little bit.

[B]

The thing that I don't. No one's mentioned yet. No one of the. No one of all of us that are here has mentioned yet is it was the first sung through musical.

[A]

Yeah. Once musical theater structure had been established. Right.

[B]

So it's not an operetta.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

Not an opera. It is. It is a. It is not like a Gilbert and Sullivan style piece. It borrows its bones from sort of your golden age musical, but it is sung through in a way that had never been done before and as we now know, gets done all the time. So, like, you think of Les Mis, you think of Evita, you think of the. Those musicals that are just fully sung through. This was the first one of those.

[A]

Yeah, it's. It's an opera in the very literal sense and of just, you know, no dialogue, completely sung, but it is not an opera. But yeah, you're right, it is not an opera because it is very much a musical. But as you said, it is a sung through musical. The best way I can describe this score to people.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Is it's sort of like a combination of Candide and 110in the shade with like a little bit of Aaron mixed in. Because, like, there is operatic music in there. Like. Like Penelope does not sing anything. That's musical theater. It is that that bitch is singing full blown Pacini. But Helen stuff is very musical theater character actress stuff. And Lazy Afternoon is like a fuck song. And now there's a lot of Aaron Copeland Americana mixed in there, but also like, it's Americana with a bit of an edge to it. So it's like you have a lot of the 110 in the shade. They're like let the Rain, but there's like a bit of a dissonance in there as well. So it's not totally musical theater, but it's not totally opera, but it's not totally Americana. It's this weird hybrid. And musically speaking, it is often very successful, if not only dramatically so.

[B]

I think that's exactly right. I think it is far more musically successful than it is structurally.

[A]

Yeah. And you. There's. There's some things about it where you just listen to it and like, it excites you in a way that's not really dramatically found. Founded, but it doesn't really, like, I don't know a score where you have the, like the Arrival of Paris. So before we started recordings, by the way, guys, Alex and I both admitted today that we went to the gym while listening to the score and worked out to it. And let me tell you, this might be the oddest score to work out to. More so than Les Mis. More so than, like Showboat. This is a score where, like, have.

[B]

You ever done crunches to a dividing day? Because that's weird. And I've done that.

[A]

Actually, that would probably be dividing day because you gotta go slow with that one. So that's probably very good for your core. I have done chin ups and I, I you not. I have done actual chin ups to My Fair lady, to Christine. Andreas has Show Me. Because first of all, Christina Andreas sings that entire score up a step because she's a badass. But yeah, I've. I'm. I'm a full blown queer. I just, I've. I've done workouts to the oddest of. Of songs, but running on the treadmill to the Arrival of Paris was an interesting experience because I'm on the treadmill and I'm hearing what's that flying through the air. Like, it's, It's. Yeah, it's. It's very odd experience. And then doing leg lifts to Lazy Afternoon and then stretching to Penelope. God, Penelope is such a killjoy. But this score, it's fascinating. It's odd, it's exciting. It's not. It's like all the, like, there are so many highs for me musically in the show and then so many times where I'm just like. I feel like time has slowed down. Well, it's very.

[B]

I don't want to use the word Disparate, because that's not the word. I mean, but it jumps around stylistically so much, which if you. If you read any of sort of like the reactions to it, that was sort of the people's problem with it at the time is they were like. It feels inconsistent, but I actually think it is part of what makes it special. I. You know, I couldn't help but thinking of oh brother, where art thou? The whole time and that soundtrack specifically, which is maybe my favorite movie soundtrack of all time. That's not a musical. Although argue that it's a musical and just in terms of. It's like. It lives in that sort of like bluegrass country world. But as you travel and as Ulysses sort of go meets his different, you know, villains, or, you know, as I.

[A]

Call them, I guess we would call.

[B]

Them video game bad bosses.

[A]

Barry. Scott Pilgrim versus the world.

[B]

Yeah, the music reflects that and I think that happens here. You know, we sort of like. It feels like Hector walked, so Hadestown can run.

[A]

Sure. It's so like we're talking about this score, guys. And it sounds like it's the most complex, convoluted, like, hard to break through score, and it's not. There are parts of it that are a little more operatic and I wouldn't say challenging, but just sort of like from, in my opinion, a little bit of a slog. But then you have songs like Guna Guna, which is just like the silliest of silly and. Or the Cersei Calypso, like all the. All those.

[B]

Laguna Guna functions as the siren song. Yeah, yeah. I'm following the plot correctly, which at any moment. Who knows if I am.

[A]

This show loses the plot as often as we're going to, so it's absolutely fine.

[B]

I don't.

[A]

I don't actually know over the. Or Arthur. That's one of the few con brothers I haven't seen and it's like a major blind spot for me. So thank you for reminding me that I need to watch it.

[B]

It's good. The soundtrack's even better.

[A]

That's what I hear at the moment. Call me by your name holds the place of my favorite soundtrack for a movie that's not a musical. If only because it's like one track is beautiful classical music, then the next track is like a crazy 80s Euro pop song. Yeah.

[B]

You know, at we. At Harry Potter, we have to. We do a warm up every day, a big group warm up and one of the, you know, we'll like various days will be different themes with the music and we often will warm up to a Trent Reznor podcast playlist.

[A]

Oh, nice.

[B]

Like, we'll, like, be, like, doing squats and all the things we need to do to get ready to do that show. And then suddenly it's like the Social Network score.

[A]

I love that score, though.

[B]

Totally. Slaps.

[A]

Yeah, the music for the montage where he's blogging and you watch the. Like this. The. What are they called? Like, those clubs when they're, like, having the girls come in on the bus. Like, the music for that is just slaps. Oh, also, before I forget, guys, we should probably take a break. Really? I beg to differ with you.

[B]

How do you mean?

[A]

You're the top. Yeah, you're an arrow color.

[B]

You're the top.

[A]

And we're back. Sorry, Alex, I. I promised in the last episode that I would finally start, like, announcing when the commercial breaks would happen, because I think we're like, six episodes in, and I keep forgetting. And now that I'm on a network, we have sponsors, and I gotta. I'm gonna let. I gotta let the listeners know that we're in the middle of a break. So we're gonna have another one after this later on down, down the line, where we will take a quick break, but not. Not for a minute, because we haven't even gotten to the fucking plot of the show. Alex, for those who don't know, the Golden Apple, which is 99% of musical theater fans. What is it? What's it about? Who is she?

[B]

Oh, God, I can't believe I have to answer this question. Okay, I'm not going to refer to my notes. I'm going to really try to do this. Here's what I'll do. I will say what I think it is, and then maybe you say what it really is.

[A]

Fantastic. I'm going to take a sip from my Kimberly Akimbo mug. Go right ahead.

[B]

Oh, can't wait. Haven't seen it on Broadway yet. Saw it three times off Broadway.

[A]

I saw it once off Broadway. Loved it. I think it's even better uptown. It's tighter, it's a little broader, and everything's just sort of more defined and sharpened. It's. It's absolutely the best musical of the season. Without a doubt. I. I call it the Musical for It's the real first musical about indoor kids, and I adore it.

[B]

Jeffrey R. I truly can't wait. I will follow Janine Tori to the end of the earth.

[A]

She's our best living musical theater composer 1000%. Where'd I say Golden Apple. Who is she?

[B]

Oh, no. Okay. The Golden Apple is based on the Iliad and the Odyssey, which, for those of you who paid attention in seventh grade, is the story of Ulyses and Penelope and Helen. And he goes off to war. It takes 10 years. He comes back and he. He and his wife and his child that he left when he was a baby, and they become a happy family. It takes that story and replants it in Washington State at the turn of the 20th century, right after the Spanish American War. And the boys are coming home from war, which was in Cuba. So if we're talking about a long journey, we're sort of talking about the journey from sort of the southeast of America up to the Pacific Northwest, which is apparently takes 10 years. And then it's just kooky cuckoo.

[A]

Lala.

[B]

And the Fates, the goddesses are sort of transformed into these old bitties in town. Mars and Juno and. Okay, well, now I need to bring up some help.

[A]

No, it's Mrs. Juniper. Ms. Juniper and loving Mars. Mrs. Juniper, I believe, is the mayor's wife. Yeah, I don't know. What there is.

[B]

Is Hector.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

And it. It's. It's a lot of plot. It's the story of the Odyssey.

[A]

Yeah, well, so in the Odyssey, Helen of Troy gets kidnapped because she's, you know, supposed to be just so beautiful, gets kidnapped by Paris and taken back, and all the men go to war to get her back. And in the Golden Apple, it's kind of a little similar. We have Helen, who is sort of the most sexually advantageous woman in town, of.

[B]

She's willing.

[A]

Angels. Angels Ruse. Yeah, she is willing. The show is also not quite sure what Helen, like, if Helen is supposed to be gorgeous or just sensual or just. Well, because you have men who describe her as like the Venus of. Of the state. And then other men are like, she's kind of plain, but, hey, she's a sloot. And it's like, well, all of those.

[B]

Men in the 1977 television recording are big old homos.

[A]

Oh, very. If ever there was a show where homos are trying to be masked, it's the Golden Apple.

[B]

I. I know. I literally, I wrote down, these men are gay. They are the gayest men in all the land.

[A]

Well, when I saw it at Encores, I can tell you for a fact that at least half of that male ensemble I had seen on Grindr back in the day, back in my Grinder days, I was like. I'd seen you before you. Before your verse, your verse bottom, your pure Bottom. Your piggy bottom. Like, seen it all on the Grind, and they're all like, lindsay Mendez, we all want to bang you. Let me bang you, Lindsay Mendez. I'm like, yeah, that's the Golden Apple, kids. You can climb the cherry tree and.

[B]

I will climb the rose.

[A]

How I love that pretty little galat almighty nose. Ms. Helen is a blue white daisy. If I don't get her, I'll go crazy.

[B]

Can we talk for a minute about the titular golden apple?

[A]

But of course.

[B]

And how little it has to do with the story and plot?

[A]

Absolutely.

[B]

That's it. That's the sentence.

[A]

Yeah. No.

[B]

Is insignificant.

[A]

It's like. I don't know, it's like calling Hamilton the beer mug or something like that. It's like, has nothing to do with anything. Yeah, well, the. I guess the thing about the Golden Apple is that it is. The thing that it's. It's. It itself is unimportant. It is just sort of the thing that gathers the moss that gets the plot rolling. Without the Golden Apple, the gossipy trio, ladies, Mrs. Juniper, Ms. Minerva and Levy Mars would not play so dirty with Paris to try to win the baking contest, which is what Alex was referring to when we first started this episode. And without that.

[B]

I don't understand why we don't talk about the Golden Apple as one of the great pie musicals. We've got Sweeney Todd. We've got Waitress.

[A]

It's the trio. It mops the floor with those shows. Sweeney Todd. Garbage. Waitress. Trash. Here we got the Golden Apple.

[B]

Golden Apple.

[A]

The Golden Apple. Henny, Sweetie, Boo. Boo. Child talking about seven layer cakes.

[B]

Ballard. K. Ballard could do Waitress. But. But Sarah Bareilles do the Golden Apple? Actually, she probably could. Yeah. She could do anything.

[A]

Well, the question. That is the question. Could Sarah Bareilles do the Golden Apple? I would. I would. I would see her. Helen. I would see her, Helen. Well, the. Here's. Here's my take. Angela Lansbury could do Sweeney Todd, but could Angela Lansbury do Waitress?

[B]

Remember when Academy Award nominee June Squibb did Waitress?

[A]

I do.

[B]

It could be like that.

[A]

Although it's a lovely time.

[B]

Rest in peace, Angela Lansbury.

[A]

Of course. Rest in peace, Angela Lansbury. I sang for her on the Tony Awards this year with the New York City Gay Men's Chorus.

[B]

I remember that. I remember you posting about that.

[A]

Yeah, it was a very exciting time. Cynthia Erivo was in the front row and she seemed to enjoy us. And then if you go on YouTube, they only show the reaction shots of the husbands of the women Nominated. And they're all like, why are. Why is this happening? So everyone on YouTube is like, oh, this audience is so confused. I'm like, no, they actually really liked us. They're just only showing the white men. The. The straight white men. But anyway, yeah, we. I think we kind of described the first act of the Golden Apple. Small town angels roost. We've got Ulysses coming back from the war. His wife Penelope kill Jordan. She is.

[B]

Rhododendron is act two.

[A]

Rhododendron is act two. Yeah. He wants to go to Rhododendron in general because he's like, it's the big city, and don't you want to experience the big city life? Penelope's like, no, I like quaint small village life. And everything that happens is because all the men are off at war. And we have Mother Hair, who we were kind of referring to earlier. She's sort of like the town oracle.

[B]

Yeah, she. She sort of is like. And so, you know, Mount Olympus becomes Mount Olympia in Washington.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

And there. And the worst lyric I've ever heard, which rhymes. Something, something wizard, something something. A to Izzard.

[A]

See, if that were written today, we would rhyme that it with either Blizzard or Eddie Izzard. But they. Eddie Izzard wasn't alive yet when the Golden Apple happened. That's true. You gotta give John the two.

[B]

Instead of A to Z, it was like A to Izard.

[A]

Well, listen, we. We give. We give Latouche some. Some. Some grace here. He. He has. Because he has other really, really good lyrics in this show. So if there's a couple of bum ones.

[B]

And can I be honest about as we're talking about. I know I'm jumping us everywhere. You can cut this.

[A]

Have you. You clearly never listened to this podcast because there's no structure anymore. I. It's whatever the. We want to understand.

[B]

That lazy afternoon is the bop. I understand that that is the song that gets covered. It's a bit of a standard nowadays, but I have a. I. My personal preference is for Windflowers. I think it's a better song.

[A]

Which one is Windflowers?

[B]

Windflowers is also sung by. Is sung by Penelope, Right.

[A]

Okay. Is.

[B]

I just wrote this is a good song in my notes, but it's. It's subtitled like when we were young, right?

[A]

Oh, yes, yes, yes. It's when Helen comes back with what's his face with her husband and she's like, oh, Ulysses, he's off getting his dick wet in Rhododendron. And Penelope's like, oh, no. Back when we were young. Yeah, but that is a good song.

[B]

He caught me a mockingbird and wove a willow kit a cage from the willow where we kissed and clung he fought me fierce dragons we were princes and the page when we were young when we were young Then we stood up in church and we whispered vows.

[A]

Lazy Afternoon is just the most easy song to pick out from the show and get covered by people. And I do like it. It is a very sensual song I wrote.

[B]

What did I write? Helen is always willing. I said, this song should be more well known. I need drag queens to do this song. I need like a drag queen to do a full performance of this song.

[A]

I get that it's. It. I think because it's just like so long. It's a long song. But I. I think that would be a good intro song for a drag queen if they had like three boys come on and. And intro her and then she comes on with her with her legs wide open. If I wish I could send you. I think I might have even sent you the audio from encores because Lindsay belts in that song and a part that other Helens mostly do. Head voice, which is the. His bank account will straighten that. I love him. She like goes. She went fully up there. And it was really thrilling to hear. And it. Much as I like the cast recording, that's. I think it's from Theater under the Stars. Much as I like that cast recording, I wish that Helen belted it instead. She does her, you know, soprano way. I love him. I'm like, no, I want. I need full blown chest. Full blown. But yes, the reason why it's called the Golden Apple, Mother hair. When the men come back from the war, which she inaccurately predicts, she tells the women of the town, they're gonna. The war's gonna go on for years. It's gonna go on for a while. And when. And the men come. And then only for Helen's husband to come on stage, she'd be like, they're coming back today. Which is like, have ever. That's hardest of wrongs. Mother Harris has ever been is like, could not be even more wrong. And all the women then, like, toss her aside because she was just so inaccurate, even though she's been accurate about everything else. And also, by the way, predicts the entire plot of the show in the first five minutes. Tells them, oh, Juniper, Minerva, Mars, y' all are going to have a fight and you're going to tear this town apart. Because Helen's going to Run off with the guy who comes in from the sky. Everyone's like, oh, okay. And when she gets cast aside and she goes, oh, now that your men are back, not that you're all, you know, getting dicked down on the reg again. You have no time for me. When they were gone, you all wanted your palms read. You all wanted your horoscopes, to which I'm like, well, that's just, you know, Instagram today. And she kind of trolls the women of the town because there's this big pie or this big baking contest, and the prize is this golden apple that she has spun. And it's not just that. It's a. That it's cute. It's that apparently it'll bring success. It's like the liquid luck in Harry Potter. It's like, you have. Yeah. She's like, you have this. It's not that, like, you're always going to be lucky, but anything you put your mind to will be successful. So the three women, they want it. They get traveling salesman Paris, who comes in from the sky in his hot air balloon and doesn't speak or sing. He only dances.

[B]

I know. Fucking the wizard of Oz dropping in and being like, I'm my soft shoe will seduce you.

[A]

Yeah. Well, it does have one of. One of the few real jokes in the show, which is the three women decide. Paris is going to be the impartial judge for the baking contest. Can he chooses Lovey Mars? Because Juniper says, I can give you influence in this town. My husband's the mayor. Minerva's like, I can give you intellect so you can become powerful outside of this town. And Mars is like, I can get you laid until you're dead. And.

[B]

And that's what he picks.

[A]

Yeah. He's like, yeah, I would like to get laid until I'm dead, please. And she then introduces him to Helen, who is sort of the town Lucy goosey girl, except she gets married while the men are off to war. She marries an older, very rich man who she doesn't. She says she loves. She doesn't really love him. She just is, you know, she's like, I couldn't. I couldn't wait for everyone forever, even though I'm horny all the time. And Mars introduces Paris to Helen. Helen sings Lazy Afternoon, and she runs off with Paris to Rhododendron. And it has one of my. One of my favorite lyrics in the show, and it's one of few jokes in the show, is after she sings Lazy Afternoon, Paris does, I bet like a two minute Solo dance, which is his seduction of her. And she sings to him, all right, my dear, you talked me into it. And yes, the audience always laughs at that. And it's.

[B]

It's one of the few times.

[A]

And they go off in the hot air balloon. And then I also love that mother. Everyone's like, oh, my God, what a scandal. This is terrible. And mother Hare is like, good for you, bitch. She. She says. She's like, good luck, Helen. Don't forget to write. You go get dick down, girl.

[B]

Don't forget to write, dear.

[A]

Don't forget to write. And all the men are up in arms about it because their favorite woman in town has gone. Which I. I wish there was a little more discussion from the women characters in the show of, like, hey, husband of mine, can we talk about how your favorite woman in town is not me, it's Helen? You're not even married to her. You can't even touch her. But Ulysses made all the men promise earlier in the show that they would always protect Helen. And now that she's off, they're like, well, now we got to go get her. And they do. They go get her in Rhododendron. But while they get her, the mayor of Rhododendron is pissed that Helen's left or that.

[B]

I guess that's Hector.

[A]

That's actually. Hector loses the fight to keep Helen and Rhododendron. And so to troll Ulysses and his. And his men, he basically gives them, without their knowledge, a set of big city obstacles before they head back to the. Back to Angel's roost, which takes 10 years. Which takes 10 years. And act two is just that. It's every obstacle. Meanwhile, like all of Ulysses, men, one by one, start getting lost to the vices of city life, to the vices of mankind. And by the end, he comes back to Penelope, who's been sewing a giant quilt for 10 years. And.

[B]

And she's like, how dare you? And he's like, no, I haven't touched anyone else. She's like, okay, I love you.

[A]

Yeah. And they're like, I guess we can start again. And that's the end of the show. I. I said it before. I'll say it again. Like, my. My alt. My two biggest complaints about this show. One is that it is very heady. So while I'm very. I admire it a great deal, and there's so much to enjoy about it, I'm not in love with it. I don't get fully emotionally engaged because. And also, part of that is. And this is my other issue. Penelope and Ulysses are supposed to be the heart of this show, and I could not give two shits about them. I. They are my least. I think they're the least interesting characters in the show. Penelope in particular. It's just so operatic and earnest. And then on top, and then on top of that, you know those like, Netflix Hallmark Christmas movies where it's always big city girl comes to a small town because she's inherited an inn or something and she learns about the value of small town life and becomes a better person. This is that. Except it's like, because act one, Ulysses is all about, you know, he wants to experience more of the world. Mother hair tempts him with, you know, visions of the future. Mother Hare predicts electricity and cars and submarines.

[B]

Oh, oh, and then there's that whole song that's like, the climate's terrible. It's the world's gonna get cold. Like a song that actually is like a little bit ahead of its time, I'd say.

[A]

Oh, yeah, no, that's. That's the scientist neck too, where she's. She's basically saying we're all doomed and yeah, we're doomed and doomed. She talks about climate and she talks about all this stuff and she says the only solution is to ship us all out into space. And so she sends one of Ulysses men out into space and like, but how do we get him back? She's like, I haven't thought of that yet. Back to the drawing board. And. But, but the point is that Ulysses is sort of tempted by progress, by the future, by big city life of all the things that you can get in the world. And so Act 2 is. He experiences it all and comes to realize the. The double edged sword of progress of big city life. And he's like, well, I simply must go back to my small town life and to my simple wife and, and enjoy what I have. And it's those Hallmark Netflix Christmas movies. Except like, it's. I've always wanted a Hallmark Netflix Christmas movie where someone from a small town goes to the big city and. And has their knowledge of the world expanded by learning more about other walks of life other than their small town living.

[B]

Right, right. Which is how most of us.

[A]

Yeah, yeah, you go to the big city and you. And you meet other people who've experienced, who've had different lives from you, and you have empathy for people who, who look and sound nothing like you because you're. You are putting a face to all of the other things that are so different from you and, and Golden Apple is sort of like, this is why we don't have those Hallmark Christmas movies. Because look what happens. You put a small town boy in the big city, he just wants to come running back. And I'm like, that's not usually the case.

[B]

Well, like, I mean, you could argue that that's what Millie is.

[A]

Yeah. You know what? I actually thought of that yesterday, and I forgot that I thought of that. You're absolutely right. Millie is like the one show that goes, this is what happens when you leave small town life and go to the big city. You become a stronger, better person.

[B]

Better because, yes, the trope is usually the opposite. You think of like, like Pinocchio. Right. Goes away, he goes to the island of, Of Pleasure Island. Right?

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And turns into a donkey. Blah, blah, blah. So this, I would say it's not, not the most progressive musical that we've ever had.

[A]

No, this is very much not a progressive musical. Not in terms of morality. It's very humble. All American Pie in that respect. It's more in the American pie. Oh, yeah.

[B]

Apple pie.

[A]

Golden apple pie. Guys, listen, I say we do an Evo Van Hoffe production of the Golden Apple. And it includes Jason Biggs, one of the pies from the baking contest.

[B]

I quit. I'm done.

[A]

Oh, the continent is crumbling and dissolving as our rivers wash our tongues top soil out to sea and the land.

[B]

We can retrieve Will be devoured by.

[A]

Pest and weevil and there won't be.

[B]

Nothing left for you and me oh, we're doomed, doom, doom oh, we're doomed.

[A]

Doom, doom oh, we're doomed to disappear with a.

[B]

Solar system I wonder how much not parody, but this musical, as I was listening to it, felt pretty referential to me. It felt like it was commenting on musicals of its time. And I wonder if the distance that we have now of like 60 years, we listen to it and it just sounds like all the musicals that we know of from that time. And I'm. I'm curious to know if we had a time machine and could go back and interview them, how much they were commenting on the structure of the Golden Age musicals, how much subversion they were trying to do in terms of. Because before, you know, I, I, my first listen, I went in blind. I didn't want to do any. I didn't want to read anything about it. I was like, I. You had told me that the cast record, the original cast recording is incomplete, Very incomplete. I'm gonna go in. I'm gonna go in blind and just like, experience it and write down my notes as we go. And for the first many songs, I was. I kept thinking that, like, oh, it started off Broadway. It's a parody musical, and that's not what it is. I. I later learned. But it did feel like. Because the lyrics, especially in those opening few songs, they're very tidy. The scansion is a little tough. He's fitting a lot of words into a little bit amount of time. And it reminded me of sort of the musicals we have that live and thrive off Broadway that are commenting on sort of the bigger Broadway musicals. And why did this start off Broadway?

[A]

This. Well, it started off Broadway. I'm glad you mentioned this because I haven't really talked about the history all that much with this show. So it is. It is booking lyrics by John latouche and music by Jerome.

[B]

I always Latouche before I date, and I always end up Morose.

[A]

Bada bing, bada boom. It is a Sunday, everybody. So Morose. First of all, he's not a musical theater composer. He's a film composer is the first thing to remember.

[B]

Right. And. And Morose is. Is a playwright.

[A]

Latouche. Latouche is a playwright.

[B]

Oh, sorry. Latouche's player.

[A]

Yes. Can we. Sorry, yeah.

[B]

Can I run to the bathroom?

[A]

Go. So this is to say, Letiosh, who also contributed a couple of lyrics to Candide after this. I believe Candide is the one.

[B]

Didn't everyone.

[A]

I know, right? We got. What's Latouche Parker and then. Well, Sondheim in the Revisal. Yeah. But the original, we have, like, three. I think it's. Yeah, Parker, like, contributed a lyric and, like, a song title and did Hellman.

[B]

Lyrics or did she just do the book?

[A]

Who?

[B]

Lillian Hellman.

[A]

She just did the book. Which eventually got completely discarded, but with Latouche. So the show, I don't know if, like, it was an idea that he had or if it was, like, pitched to create a musical about the Odyssey, whatever, but they. I mean, they wrote it in 53, and it got produced in the early parts of 1954. And the reason it went off Broadway was because as they continued writing it, it just got weirder. And Broadway producers were like, we can't put this on Broadway. No one's going to see this. Which they were ultimately right about. But the Off Broadway scene was really starting to thrive in the 50s, you know, with. I think around that same time was when, like, the Threepenny Opera revival came back at. Yeah. The Lucille Ortelle. And there was a theater Off Broadway, which we talked about briefly in Once Upon a Mattress called the Phoenix, which was the. Like, it's, it was built on in the East Village. It's now a movie theater. It's. It's a theater. I think it's on like 12th street or 11th street in like Second Avenue.

[B]

It's not the IFC Theater, is it?

[A]

No, it's not the IFC Theater. It's. It's. It's like a, it's a multiplex. It's a multiplex theater, but it used to be a 12 to 1400 seat theater. It was like a Broadway sized theater that was off Broadway. And it was, it was sort of meant to be kind of a breeding ground for shows that were Broadway sized but a little too weird for Broadway. And eventually they, you know, made it more of a seasonal, like subscriber base kind of theater. But the Golden Apple got produced there because it was cheap. And it Off Broadway was, you know, Off Broadway was a way for odder things to find success. Because you could do an Off Broadway show back in the 50s and honestly through the 80s and still make money, but no one expected it to go to Broadway because of just how odd it was. And it was so successful at the Phoenix. It got, you know, super critical acclaim, sold out audiences, and they went amazing. Like, there is no reason for us not to go to Broadway. You know, if it's, if it's selling out 12 to 1400 seats and every night on like 11th street and 2nd Avenue, who's to say we won't sell out a theater of a similar size on Broadway? And they moved to the Neil Simon, then the Alvin Theater, where it opened a month later and they lasted for about 125 performances, which is about four months. Yeah, it's not nothing. Yeah. And especially in the 50s where like you really closed when it just. When as soon as business turned bad, it was. It's not like today where it's like, oh, we're gonna, we're gonna peter on for a couple of weeks in hopes of like building buzz and we'll lose some money and then hopefully things will turn around. There are a lot of shows now that they like gaslight themselves into thinking they're gonna be the next Gentleman's guide. It's like, okay, we're gonna lose money for five months, but if we make it to the Tony Awards, we'll be golden. And we will, we will make money after that. It's like, no, you're just gonna keep losing money. So for the Golden Apple to run for four months on Broadway. They clearly were not, like, 10% capacity every day. They were probably doing decent, but it was a big show. It's a big orchestra. It's a big cast, and ultimately, they couldn't really last super long. But. Yeah, that's. I mean, that's why I started off Broadway was just that as they were writing it, it just got too weird, and they were scaring off Broadway investors, and the only way they got investors for the Broadway transfer was that it proved to be successful in a large theater. Off Broadway, but also, like, we haven't seen it in New York since. I think they did it at the York once, and then we got it at Encores. It's. It's mostly done by, like, light opera companies. Exactly. Yeah. Yeah. Because it's. It's engaging enough that, you know, on the fence, opera fans will like it. It's light. It's. There's more musical theater elements to it, but it's a big sing, so you can't really have, like, a regional musical theater company do it. It's also. Again, it's also expensive. If you're gonna do the golden Apple, you can't do it like two pianos.

[B]

But is. Oh, I see why the cast, though, is not that big.

[A]

It's not that big of a cast, especially considering a lot of act two is double casting.

[B]

Like, the sirens become the three, you know?

[A]

Yeah. But it is. It's a big sing, and it's very specific vocal types. You need. You. And you do need an orchestra. I mean, like, I guess what makes it a slightly big cast is the men. Ulysses. Men. You need, like, you need more than five guys. You need, like, a solid 15. Ryan Silverman. Sorry.

[B]

Penelope.

[A]

Oh, Penelope. An unknown girl. I think she was, like, fresh out of Juilliard. Okay. Yeah. And who, I'm trying to think. Well, Jeff Boomencrantz played Lindsay Mendez's husband, and Ashley Brown was one of the three bitties. I don't remember. Yeah, I don't remember who everybody else was, but. But that's, again, because of sort of the scale of the score. You can't just, like, grab any old musical theater person. It's. You need very specific vocal types. And, like, Lindsay was kind of, like, off brand for the role of Helen in a lot of ways, because Helen is the most musical theater voice of the show. But it still requires a bit of. Not hefts, but, like, again, like, a power to it. It's not just, like, a pure poppy sound. It's a very golden age, brassy comedian, like throaty alto. K. Ballard, if you will. Yeah, exactly. Literally, Kay Ballard. This was. This show launched three careers. It launched K. Ballard's career because she was the original Helen. Stephen Douglas was the original Ulysses, and he went straight from this into Damn Yankees. Well, yeah, pretty straight from this to Damn Yankees. And then the Eckharts, who we discussed a little bit in Once Upon a Mattress, they were the designers for the show and this really launched them as major Broadway designers, which we eventually would see with Once Upon a Mattress. I believe they also did Damn Yankees. They did Fiorello. They would do the original. She Loves Me just. Yeah. Heavy hitters. Heavy hitters. But yeah, no one else really got much out of this. And it's sort of like this has become one of the ultimate cult musical theater shows. And unlike Candide, maybe because they did not really do justice when they recorded the score, this never really got to bounce back with a cast recording. Yeah, because that's.

[B]

That, you know, that's like how it's done more.

[A]

Well, so Candide, first of all, Candide has the benefit of Bernstein attached to it, who was a very major name.

[B]

And I'll say it, Candide's better. A better score.

[A]

It is a better score. I mean, Candide is one of those scores where it's like, the problem is that it's just such an embarrassment of riches that eventually you get a little. Not tired, but like depleted. Like depending on the version of Candy that you see, it's either a right and tight, you know, two hours or if they go for like the three and a half hours. All the music is amazing, but by like the three hour mark, you're like, okay, I'm getting, like, I'm getting a little winded.

[B]

Mary Zimmerman did a production of it right when I graduated from college in Chicago at the Goodman, and it was extraordinary.

[A]

They did it at the Huntington when I was in college. Yes, that was, that was a really great production. There's, there's. I don't think there's any number one, like, perfect way to do Candide. All the major versions of it have something about it that work for me and things about it that don't. I. But we, we can talk about Candide because it does. The DNA is so enmeshed with.

[B]

I mean, the dm.

[A]

Totally. Yeah, it's. But also.

[B]

Yeah. Shut me up if we.

[A]

No, no, no. We're going to go on all the things. The. What they have in common is, you know, this really kind of expansive score and sound that's big and bold and beautiful and odd and not Broadway, but very Broadway at the same time. And I feel like there's a bit more of excitement to the music in Candide and especially that original cast recording like that. Candide begins with arguably the greatest overture of all time. The kind of overture that. That. Not 70s. Yeah. Symphony's symphonies all over the world do year round and has become very famous. And, you know, glitter this over two.

[B]

Kind of slaps, though it is.

[A]

This is. No, this is a great overshare.

[B]

Like, it's only. If I'm looking at it, it's like.

[A]

A minute and a half, something like that.

[B]

58 seconds on the original cast recording.

[A]

Oh, I could have sworn it was a little longer than that. But, yeah, no, it's a short overture. It's. It's essentially just the. It's the departure for rhododendron music. That's the song. The sound of like 110 in the shade. To me, you know, where it sounds like, what's to say, Starbuck coming in and whipping the town up about the rain. It's. This is obviously a little more. I don't say avant garde, but for lack of a better term, avant garde. But it's that kind of.

[B]

It's weird.

[A]

Yeah, it is weird. It's very weird.

[B]

And I. You know, we keep saying it's otter. It's this. It's this. It is weird. I mean, have you found in your sort of, like, looking at this specific topic, has it helped you sort of create a. And obviously there are no hard and fast rules about any of this, but, like, what makes a good Broadway musical versus a good Off Broadway musical, and when it does translate versus when it doesn't translate. I don't know how far into your season you are at this recording.

[A]

Well, also because we're going out of order in terms of the chronological order of shows. Like, we started with Rent and then we went into Torch Song trilogy, and then we did Passing Strange, then you're in Town and now Once Upon a Mattress, now this. So it's. We're. We're. Passing Strange is amazing, but I think it depends on sort of. It's all. It all changes eventually. Because there used to be a time where you could be a successful Off Broadway show. You didn't have to transfer to Broadway in order to make money and to run a long time. Right. Some of the Off Broadway to Broadway transfers that would happen in the 60s and 70s kind of happened as the last Hail Mary, like the original. You're A Good Man Charlie Brown transferred to Broadway right as the original Off Broadway production was closing after four years. And they were like, well, you know, let's see if we can do like one last push on Broadway. See if we can make a little extra money. And you know, it closed within a month. Or Godspell, which did run for about a year and a half on Broadway, but only once. It ran for like six years off Broadway. And now, you know, there's, there are very few shows now that can run successfully off Broadway. I think the current revival of Little Shot might be like the one exception in the last five or six years.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

But what we're sort of seeing now because it's. You can sort of pinpoint it in increments, right. Starting, I would argue with A Chorus Line, then going into Rent and then into Hamilton, and then Dear Evan Hansen. Especially with these sort of subscriber based theaters, you watch these musicals happen and the expectation is always, is this something that will transfer to Broadway? It's sort of like a cheaper version of an out of town tryout and one that can build a little more buzz because it's happening in the city. But something like Golden Apple or Hair even were not meant to be Broadway musicals. Or at least I should say what they were as they were being written. Even if the goal originally was to be Broadway, eventually they just decided to stay true to their vision and just open Off Broadway and be the musical they want it to be. And as luck would have it, you know, they get accepted as they are and then move to Broadway with two various, two very different degrees of success. So what I am seeing in this series is with Off Broadway in the 50s, 60s and early 70s, the attitude is counterculture, right? Like this is the antidote to the mainstreamness of Broadway. Like this, this is for the thinking man. This is for someone where like Broadway is just simply too commercial. And that eventually transfers from musicals to plays like the late 60s through the 70s. It's more the off Broadway play becomes the thinking man's theater, not the Off Broadway musical. That's. That eventually becomes, you know, like either the breeding ground for a Broadway transfer or they're just like weird, weird shows like Let My People Come or they become, you know, like no 5$. No fringe musicals. I don't really think there's any idea of what Off Broadway means anymore. There's no real sense of what Off Broadway could be. It's just, it's, it's now it just feels sort of bit more like a laboratory for A possible Broadway transfer. At least that is what I'm seeing with the more modern stuff.

[B]

When I think of, like, when we were growing up, some of my favorite musicals were off Broadway musicals. Capital O, capital B. Like that original Violet, A New Brain I think of, like Hedwig. You know, these shows that we are seeing 20 years later get revived on Broadway, their first time on Broadway, if they are, you know, correctly considered revivals. But I still, you know, to this day, I still love seeing an off Broadway musical. I recently saw. This was a revival, but I saw the A Man of no Importance stage and I, I just, I went. I went in, like, not really knowing what to expect. John Doyle can be a little hit or miss for me.

[A]

Absolutely.

[B]

But it was like everything I want in an evening. It was so unpretentious and egoless and simple and beautiful. And, you know, when you get a score with Aaron's and Flaherty, you're just like, oh, I'm gonna be taken care of all night. You know, you're taken care of all night. And I remember, you know, seeing some of my favorite shows that I've seen over the last 10 years were off Broadway musicals that maybe wanted to transfer, but, like, weren't gonna, like Fly by Night, the Will Connolly musical, or. Or Fortress of Solitude, the Mike Friedman musical. And I, you know, I, I love an off Broadway musical. And I hope that we are in this sort of like, as we're figuring out how to make money in the theater industry again, which is incredibly difficult to do. I hope that that doesn't die, you know.

[A]

Absolutely. Well, so it's, It's. Some of the musicals you mentioned are, Are interesting because the, the original Violet, the original Assassins, they were kind of. They were not written necessarily to transfer to Broadway, but when they came out, and Floyd Collins too, like, there was a buzz around, especially because of where they, they. Those all came from Playwrights Horizons, where, you know, starting with Sunday in the park with George and then eventually with Once. Once on this island, they're. And, you know, also breeding falsettos, which. And all that stuff. Like, there, there becomes an expectation with those theaters. Oh, this, this musical they're now doing with, you know, either it's Broadway talent or people who are up and comers in the industry, and everyone comes in, they go, okay, like, is this gonna go to Broadway? Is, Am I. Am I getting in on the ground level of something? That's gonna be huge. And Violet ended up kind of getting killed by the times with sort of faint praise. And there was A Janine Story has talked about it like there was an intention to go to Broadway like that. The. The producers wanted to go. It was. It was never meant to be a capital O, capital B, off Broadway musical. It was sort of like, we're doing this as a stepping stone. And same thing with man of no Importance when it was at Lincoln Center Theater. You know, we have Aaron's and Flaherty with Terence McNally. They're coming off Roger Reese. Joe Mantello is directing it. In between Take Me out and Wicked, we have also, you know, Faith Prince and my girl Sally Murphy. Just like big people. And. And that also, once again, kind of got killed by the times. But so it's interesting you mentioned man of no Importance with the classic Stage Company production, because I feel like with the original Lincoln Center Theater version, there was there. When you watch videos of it and you read the reviews, there was this sort of expectation of, okay, where is this gonna. What theater is this gonna move to at some point, right? And you look at that staging and it feels a little Broadway with the turntable and the big ensemble and the John Doyle revival. What I really like about it is absolutely no pretension that it's going to go to Broadway. He's like, nope, this is simple. This is intimate. This, you know, this is bare bones. And this could not work on Broadway because once you make it a 200 ticket price, people want more. And we're not going to do that. We're going to make this as true to what this show needs as possible. And it's what makes it work so well. It's what I. I'll talk about this in the Hamilton episode when we eventually get to it. But, like, when I saw Hamilton at the Public, my number one thought was, like, I look forward to seeing this on Broadway because they clearly designed and staged this with a larger theater in mind, like these. These dancers are kind of bumping into each other, and it does not. The Newman Stage does not support this. They are biding their time until a theater opens up for them. And it's not, as you said, it's nice to see a show that just fits comfortably in an Off Broadway theater. And that also is like the original Hedvig or, you know, when Charlie.

[B]

I think about.

[A]

Oh, sorry, when. When the Charlie Brown revival happened in the 90s, they tried really hard to make it fit for Broadway. And I love that cast recording. But you watch the video of it, and despite, like, that cast being a bunch of amazing talent, like, it's. It's A little too big. When you look at it, like, the set's just a little too elaborate for a show that originally was in a black box with, you know, just a piano and a drum. It's like putting the Fantastics on Broadway. You could put it in the Circle and Square theater, but even that's too big for it. Like, you need. The Fantastics needs to be in a theater that seats 90 people. That's the only way that it. That it breathes.

[B]

Well, when I. I mean, I. I think a lot about Fun Home and how. When they. You know, they. When they were in the Newman and they were proscenium, and they were like, here's how the musical works. And then they ended up at the Circle in the Square. And I think. I don't know if it was Sam Gold. I don't know if it was the producers, but they were just like, okay, well, we're gonna remake this musical to.

[A]

To. To.

[B]

To have. To exist in this space like this musical is too good to not accidentally be in Circle in the Square.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

I appreciated how they were like, well, then, fine, then we are going to make this musical even better because of this space. And then I saw the tour, and it was in a proscenium. I was like, oh, yes, I remember sort of these things. But sitting in that. In sitting in Circle and Square and the. The house. The Bechtel House, just coming up from those traps, it was just like, oh, right, everyone here is a genius.

[A]

I. Fun Home is the musical is the. Sorry is the Broadway show that I have seen the most. I do not. I'm not a repeat offender. Very often with Broadway shows, I have to really love something to see it multiple times. Or, you know, if I have a friend calling it. Yeah, Like, I. I saw My Fair lady four times. Not because I loved it that much, but because I saw it when it opened. I saw Benanti go into it. I saw my very good friend Caitlin Frank make her Broadway debut. And then my friend Sarah was like, well, when Caitlyn's first night, Kristen Anderson was the Eliza who was wonderful. But Sarah really wanted to see Benanti. So we went back the following week to see Caitlyn in the show again. But so also, Sarah could see Benante. So I ended up seeing My Fair lady four times. I ended up seeing Kinky Boots four times because Laura Nicole Chapman just couldn't stop being in it. And I'm like, oh, God damn it. So I saw that show four times. But I saw Fun Home six times on Broadway, once Off Broadway. And even though I knew people in it, it was not because I knew them. I was like, I don't think I'm ever going to see something I love this much that I think is this fantastic ever again. And maybe I will. But I saw it off Broadway and I was like, this is incredible. This is a brilliant musical. It's done so well. And when they moved it to Broadway and they reconfigured it for the Circle in the Square Theater, and by all accounts, part of the reason why it took them a year and a half to come to Broadway is they were waiting for that theater to be open. And apparently Sam Gold always wanted it to be in the round. And so they spent that time figuring out how to make it work in the round. And they made slight tweaks here and there. So when it opened on Broadway, I was like, how dare you take this brilliant musical and make it even more incredible. You went from a 10 to an 11. Very spinal tap. And I was like, this is mind boggling. I don't know how you did it. Some shows, when they transfer to Broadway, like a Hamilton, it's simply just a matter of. It's simply too big for off Broadway. It just needs more space. It needs more breathing room and it'll. And you can see the bigger picture better. Something like Fun Home. It's a matter of, you know, the right timing, where they found the right theater and they were able to repurpose it. Something like, I don't know, like Sunday in the park with George moving to Broadway. And they get the Booth Theater so they maintain that intimacy still. And they don't necessarily need to rethink the concept of the look of the show all that much. It's just about finding the right spot. And same thing with Kimberly Akimbo, like finding the Booth Theater. It fits so comfortably there. And then some shows, they go too big or they rethink it too much. And something like Golden Apple. I don't think that.

[B]

I'm proud of you. I'm so proud of you.

[A]

Thank you. The Golden Apple, though, like, I don't know, because we were talking about this with Once Upon a Mattress, which is, you know, same era, the 1950s, transferring from the same Off Broadway theater, Phoenix to Broadway. Once Upon a Mattress was able to last, I guess, because it is ultimately just out to be a good time. And it. And it opened at the Phoenix out of pure necessity. The Golden Apple. I don't know, it's. I think the Golden Apple was a victim of what A lot of Off Broadway shows are victim to when they transfer and don't succeed is just like, once you're on Broadway, the expectation of what you're supposed to be changes. You can't just be challenging, you can't just be smart. You have to be all of that as well as palatable, and that's a really hard thing to do. I think there are some shows that are able to be challenging but palatable at the same time. It's really hard balance to figure out. And Golden Apple is just like a little too smart. It's just a little too weird.

[B]

So why do you think, Listen, we got flop musicals that we love to this day, and we got musicals like Once Upon a Mattress is done all the time. What do you think it is about the Golden Apple that doesn't have staying power as a cult hit?

[A]

Staying power is occulted or. Or like, why is it not performed more?

[B]

But I mean, I don't even think, why is it not performed more? I don't think that's my question.

[A]

I know, but you mentioned, like, Once Upon a Mattress getting performed all the time. Once Upon a Mattress.

[B]

Once Upon a Mattress is also like a CD that I had growing up. And maybe it was because of the timing of the Sarah Jessica Parker revival.

[A]

But, you know, so something with Once Upon a Mattress that's just on a technical level of why. I know it gets produced a lot, and Mary Rogers has talked about this as well, is like, that's a show that has nine principal roles that all have something to do at one point. Right. So it's very easy for schools to do it because they go great. We can offer major roles to, like, so many kids. And it's a relatively safe show. All the sexuality is more innuendo. It's. It's comedy. It's. It's light. It's, you know, it's very smooth sailing. And that is why it's done a lot. Something like Golden Apple obviously can't get performed all that time, all that much. As I mentioned earlier, it's not a show you can just sort of decide to put up and see who you've got around, who can maybe.

[B]

And you can't. You can't make a. You know, Denise, who's a junior in high school, is probably not going to be able to sing.

[A]

Penelope. Yeah, it's. These are big things. These are big things. Why it hasn't lasted as a cult musical. I can only say for myself, like, the show and I. And I literally just did a whole series kind of on cult, on cultures, culture shows, shows that, you know, didn't have a lot of success or had mild success and then get a lot of success later on. So I know I cover Sideshow and Smile and Carrie and Candide and Pel. Joey and Susical. Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. Well, and I think so, like, for something like Seussical or Sideshow, there is a lot. In addition to some of the big music, there is an emotional component that you can at least find a way into. There's nothing in Golden Apple for me that gives me an emotional in. It's all just very at. It's all admiration. It's not a lot of excitement or engagement. And that's. That's just my. My tea. I'm sure there are some people are like, oh, I weep every time I listen to the finals number between Penelope and Ulysses. I more listen to the Golden Apple, and I'm like, oh, this is a fascinating show with a really great and odd score. And. But there also gets to be a point in Act 2 where I'm just like, okay, like, let's wrap this up.

[B]

I. I think that the thing that I've been struggling with is, is this earnest or is this camp? I think it's a. And I think it's a little confused.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And I think if it were more camp, we would be able to sissy that walk about it more. And if it were more earnest, then it would be like in everyone's wedding playlist. But it sort of doesn't succeed at either enough to qualify.

[A]

Yeah. So, like, I don't know what your view of Sideshow is. I would love for you to hear that episode where Adam Ellsworth and I talk about it just because what we realized and that makes Sideshow so polarizing is that it is glorious and camp at the exact same time. It never shifts from one to the other. And part of what makes it that way is that it is so earnest all the time. That. Or at least the original version. I'm not. I. We don't talk about the revival. But the original version, it's so earnest all the time. But the circumstances are so odd that you're. You're always kind of going, wait, what? But also, yes. And Golden Apple, it kind of swings from side to side, and as you said, like, it. It can create confusion for audiences and unclear sort of how they're supposed to feel in any given moment and not in a way that great theater does. Does where, you know, you go see an amazing play and you walk out and you go, I need to talk about this to someone because I have a lot of questions. This is something where you're sitting there and you're going, am I supposed to cry right now or am I supposed to laugh right now? And the. It is satirical in a sense. I don't think, like, the Penelope Ulysses stuff is meant to be satirical. And I feel like it kind of should be, because, again, I think there's. Their stuff is just not that great. Yeah. You know, I don't know. I don't know. I. I think the emotional component that is lacking for me is because Penelope Ulysses are meant to sort of be the beating heart of the show. And for me, they're just this giant void sitting there in this musical. Whereas all the times that the show is having fun is when I am, if not necessarily connected to it, I can at least be along for the ride. And when it goes for the emotion, that's when I'm like, I'm sorry. I just don't buy this.

[B]

Yeah. I just don't. It's. It's not that I don't buy it. It's just that I didn't care.

[A]

I think that for me, that's. I guess it's the same thing for me, though. It's like, if I'm not buying it, I don't care. And, like. So do you know Lindsay Ellis? Do you know who she is?

[B]

I don't think I do.

[A]

She used to do these YouTube video essays, a lot of them on film, but sometimes on musicals. And she's got a great one on Rent where she basically just tears it to shreds. And another one that's on the Beauty and the Beast remake and tears that one to shreds. And so whenever anyone's like, what issues do you have with the Beauty and the Beast remake? I send them a link to her video. I'm like, she says it all. Yep. Click right here. She says it all. But she also used to do a podcast that she's no longer on because she's basically kind of just retreated from that part of her life due to really shitty circumstances. But back when she was hosting this podcast called Musical Explaining, they were talking about the in the Heights movie, and they were sort of critiquing a lot of things about it, and she was like, listen, what it comes down to is, when you're not buying the story, you find a million things to critique about the storytelling. When you. When you are sold on it, all the issues that someone else might have aren't issues for you.

[B]

So, yeah, I think that people who don't get the in the Heights movie are stupid. I think it's an incredible film.

[A]

Oh, you just called me stupid. It's not that I don't get it. I have issues with it. I think it has two amazing moments. I think the opening in 96,000 are some of are two of the best musical theater movie making moments of all time. I have other issues with it though. It's the screenplay that made me miss the libretto of the show, which is something I never thought I would do. But I will talk about that more in the Heights episode. Everybody. Great. The first time Alex and I have had.

[B]

We just know what I quit.

[A]

I leave. Ian, listen, I don't.

[B]

I had a really, I had a really unique experience. I was LA that year. So last year, this time last year I was on the SAG nominating committee. So I saw everything, all these screenings and because of COVID like people, everyone, everyone was at all of them. It was an amazing experience. And I thought that, that we talked. We don't have to talk about this. You can cut all this, but like it's all standing bitch not get the love that it deserved for. So like, Corey Hawkins is amazing in that movie.

[A]

He's great.

[B]

Some of that cinematography is extraordinary.

[A]

It's very well shot. I have issues with the visual vocabulary of some of the songs and that's not something we can, we need to get into. But I also have issues with some of the changes they made to the character of Nina and her storyline. I, I, I, I also, also I want to say I did see it three times. Once was alone on my computer via screener and I did not like it. And then my mom wanted to see it, so we watched it again on a slightly larger tv. I liked it a little bit more and then when it came out in theaters, I was like, okay, I should see this on a big screen. As it was meant to be seen and given my final approval. I don't dislike the movie. I think there's a lot about that movie that works really well. It's just very inconsistent for me. I think for every major high, there's a big old low. Corey Hawkins is absolutely, in my opinion, the MVP of that movie. And then I also just saw him in Top Dog, Underdog, and I'm like, great, I will watch anything you do from now on.

[B]

Oh, gosh, I can't wait.

[A]

He is, they're, they're both great. But he, he has the role. He's got the Jeffrey Wright Role, But I don't know how we got here. Oh, maybe it's because, you know, Lin Manuel Miranda slapped me in the face and called me a. That I didn't like that movie once I saw it, but.

[B]

Oh, well, that's different.

[A]

That's absolutely kidding. Since you're on the SAG nominating committee that year, are you the reason why J. Hud got in and not Rachel Zegler? Do I have you to blame? Is that what you're telling me?

[B]

No, I can tell you right now. I'll tell you exactly who I put five. Who my five were for actress. Let me remember.

[A]

Wait, hold on.

[B]

Let me remember. I think I'm allowed to say this.

[A]

It's been a year. You can tell.

[B]

Oh, I got rid of them all.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

But I can tell you I put for best actress, I put Nicole Kidman. I put for being the Ricardos. I. I put Jessica Chastain for the eyes of Tammy Faye. I put Olivia Colman for the Lost Daughter. Those were my, like, three definites. I didn't put Rachel Zegler.

[A]

Oh.

[B]

I didn't put Jennifer Hudson. I didn't put Penelope Cruz.

[A]

Did you just do it?

[B]

No.

[A]

You did not like Spencer?

[B]

Absolutely not. I. I hated that movie. Suddenly I'm Madeline Kahn. Flames, flames on the side of my face. I hated that movie. I felt. I felt like everyone made that movie so that all my friends could take me to a movie theater and play a trick on me and for me to watch it. That movie was made to torture only me. I hated that movie. I hated everything about that movie. And I love Jackie. I love the movie Jackie. I'm a Jackie Defender. But I hated that movie.

[A]

This is my favorite day. This has been an amazing time so far. I'm really enjoying this. I bring me back for a show.

[B]

That I know something about, and I promise I can. I, I, I.

[A]

No, I'm. No, no. This is a perfect intro. This is the perfect intro for you on this podcast. You will absolutely come back at some point. I also have a million shows I have to get through for this series, and there will be a couple of repeat guests just because of this.

[B]

But you mentioned. You mentioned if I did this, I would maybe get another one. Is that happening?

[A]

Well, we'll see how the rest of this goes. The in the Heights fiasco of 2022. Yeah, we're backpedal on that now. I'm not so sure. But I did not hate Spencer the way you hated Spencer. I mostly was just like, I kind of sat there and I went okay, But.

[B]

Oh, Alana Haim. I put Alana Haim.

[A]

Oh, I'm not Paul Thomas Anderson just doesn't do it for me. He's done. He's just not my guy.

[B]

I don't disagree with you, but I thought that what she did in that.

[A]

Movie, I liked her a lot in it. And I will say I liked licorice pizza. I was ready for it to be the movie that changed my mind because everyone told me it would be a.

[B]

Lot of pressure for a movie, dear.

[A]

Well, some movies do that for you. I also Moonrise Kingdom was the movie that changed my mind on Wes Anderson. I used to not be a fan. And then with Moonrise Kingdom, I was like, oh, I think I get it now.

[B]

Yeah, I mean, I was always a ten about Royal Tenenbaums fan.

[A]

See, I did not like Royal Tenenbaums when I first saw it. And then after that was Life Aquatic with Steve Zissy. And I really didn't like Wes Anderson after that. But then Moonrise Kingdom, I was like, I think I get it. And then I watched Rushmore and I loved Rushmore. And then I saw Royal Tenenbaums again and it all clicked. Sometimes it's like you gotta understand what plane they're on. And that's what Moonrise did. It was the gateway that made me understand what Wes's plane was. Life Aquatic is still garbage, but Royal Town of Bombs, great movie. Anyway, this brings us back to the Golden Apple, because if anyone.

[B]

Back to the Golden Apple.

[A]

Well, if anyone ever made a movie musical out of the Golden Apple, it would be Wes Anderson. Imagine a Wes Anderson directed movie musical. What would that be?

[B]

Oh, that's such a good question. That's such a good question. I would want Wes Anderson to direct a musical adaptation of Lucky Stiff.

[A]

That would be a good one. The movie version we have right now is so weird.

[B]

It's weird. Wait, this is such a good question. And now you have to sit and. Oh, you know what? Can I say something really weird?

[A]

Sure.

[B]

Company, huh? Wes Anderson's company.

[A]

Interesting. I'm not opposed to that. I originally. Speaking of Sondheim, I.

[B]

Isn't Marian Elliott the Wes Anderson of Broadway?

[A]

Is she? Oh, no. Remember?

[B]

Wes Anderson's warhorse.

[A]

But anyway, although I do think if ever they were to make a movie of Golden Apple, Wes Anderson would be the one to direct it. Because talk about the oddballness of it all. Yes, we're bringing it all back. Bring it all back. So you were talking about sort of the differences between Off Broadway and Broadway. What makes something successful or not successful when it transfers. I sort of gave my answer and then you were talking about the capital O, capital B musicals that you really love. Did you. I don't, I can't remember if you talked about this because you've been on so many tangents already. But like, did you just, did you discuss what it is that makes something an off Broadway musical to you?

[B]

No. Well, it's that it's got less than 500 seats.

[A]

That's it.

[B]

That's it.

[A]

That's it.

[B]

I think because of my life's journey and then I spent 11 years in the Chicago theater scene, the distinction becomes strictly financial to me. I've seen tiny musicals in big spaces that I've loved. I've seen huge musicals done in Chicago storefront non equity theaters that have been some of the best nights of theater of my life. And I think that at the end of the day I just want to be told a great story with a point of view. To me, when I think of an off Broadway musical and I walk into an off Broadway musical, especially one that maybe doesn't really give a fuck about transferring, which as we've discussed is incredibly few and far between these days. I walk in knowing that I'm about to encounter a group of artists from the top down who are working their hardest to make the evening that I am about to see the best that it can be. Instead of a group of artists who are working to make the evening about. I'm about to see a stepping stone.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And when I know that a show has been designed for a space that I'm in, when I know that an actor took a job because they love the piece and they're gonna eat the small paycheck as opposed to potentially making four or five grand as a principal star on Broadway. That's why they did it. They're there for, to tell me this story right now and I'm a hungrier audience member for it. I know I'm going to see something that maybe takes a bigger risk. I know that I'm going to see something that's maybe a little rougher around the edges and ultimately that's incredibly exciting for me. And since living in New York, I've been, you know, pandemic aside, been doing this sort of like eight show a week Broadway schedule that has been really difficult to see other things during. And I'm really excited. I, you know, I, my last day. I graduated from Hogwarts a week ago today after five years and I'm so Excited to see more off Broadway theater. And if there is a new musical that is being presented off Broadway, I am. I'll do any. I'll do anything not to miss it, because I've got this. I, you know, I've got the Soft Power cd. I didn't get to see it. I've got the soundtrack. I didn't get to see Strange Loop off Broadway. I, you know, didn't get to see. But I remember in 2000, I don't know, 14, 15, I saw Hadestown at New York Theater Workshop, and that blew my mind. And I remember seeing, you know, 25th annual Put McAllen Spelling Bee at second stage. And long, like before it had hopes of going to Broadway. And it was a week where I had seen. I saw Piazza, I saw Scoundrels. I saw Spamalot. I was. It was like spring break of my junior year of high school, and I saw all those shows. And I walked away from that trip thinking about spelling bee. And then two months later, they were like, we're going to Broadway.

[A]

And I was like, yes, this rules. Yeah, there's something about. So I talked about this when I reviewed Downstate at. They have Covid.

[B]

And they're on a pause.

[A]

No, they're back now. They're back.

[B]

They are. I think.

[A]

I think they. They just canceled that one matinee. I think they're. Because I know they performed today with.

[B]

A bunch of understudies.

[A]

I don't know how many other studies. Maybe just one.

[B]

Yeah, we love. We love understudies. But I do know that whole cast from Chicago, so I would like to see them in it.

[A]

Yes, as well you should. It's. It's a phenomenal company. But I think. Because I believe last. Actually, no, I think they even performed last night. It might have just been. They had to cancel the matinee so they could prep an understudy.

[B]

And that. That's happened a lot. I mean, yeah, it happens all the.

[A]

Time, but I. Yeah, I would wait a week or two just to get that full company, because it's. When I saw it, I was like, there's. Everyone here is doing exactly what they should be doing. It's. But so the point is, is that.

[B]

Can I make you really jealous for a minute? You.

[A]

Please.

[B]

I saw Sally Murphy do Time Stand Still.

[A]

She was the Laura Linney part.

[B]

Oh, yeah.

[A]

Don't tell me that.

[B]

I knew.

[A]

Do you know how I feel about her?

[B]

Do you?

[A]

I, I.

[B]

Have you met her?

[A]

I have. I. I probably told this story on the pod once Already, I can't remember, but I saw her do Admissions at Lincoln Center Theater.

[B]

Josh's play. Yes.

[A]

And the play was fine, but I. I purely went to see her in it, and specifically I wanted to get her to sign one of my Carousel playbills. There's like, I do not. I do not stage door anymore. I'm mostly just. I feel like I'm not too old for it, but, like, I. I'm just. I'm too involved in the scene now to go and just be a fan. It's a little like there's too much 6 degrees of separation from everyone. But also, it's just like that's. It's not my gig. I have to really, really, really, really, really want to meet the person to do it. And she was sort of like one of my last two or three that I wanted, and Michael Hayden's the other one. And I went to go see Admissions purely for her. And my friend Sarah met me afterwards because she was like, you need someone standing next to you who's calm and normal, who can vouch that you're common normal. So when you meet her, she's not, like, afraid you're going to do something weird. And true to her word, Sarah was there with me afterwards. And Sally took a minute to come out, and when she. She was about to walk out the stage door, and I had to stop her, and I was like, oh, Ms. Murphy, would you sign this for me? And the Admissions playbill and the Carousel playbill look very similar. They had similar color palettes. So she was ready to just sign an admissions play. Bill realized all of a sudden what it was. Looked up at me and went, do you want to talk? And I was like, I would love nothing more. And so we talked, got a photo with her and everything. That was my one time meeting her. It went so well. I don't ever need to meet her again. I just have no problem supporting her whenever she does stuff. So, like, saw her in the Minutes, saw her in this, saw her in Linda Vista. It's like, I. Same thing with Michael Hayden. If I know Michael Hayden is going to be in something, I'm just going to go see it anyway. Downstate, extraordinary play. It's. I think it's the best American play in years. Go Steppenwolf By. The only reason I wanted to go to Broadway is because when you go to Broadway, whether we want to accept it or not, there becomes a slight level of legitimacy to the piece of just. It's been on Broadway, it had the run. Even if Even if it closed in a week, it opened there, you can say the Broadway show and there becomes a wider landscape of audience members who can, who will are willing to go see it, who are willing to take that chance. Unfortunately, a lot of them are stupid because, you know, they go and they're like, I want to be entertained. I'm putting down 200 bucks. I want a big old set. Yeah, I don't mean to do the southern accent. Stupid. People can come from anywhere. But even so, just the fact of being on Broadway, Tony eligible, you get your headlines just get a little bit bigger, your credentials get a little shinier, and people are more willing to, you know, perform the show after it's closed. Once it's had the Broadway run. It's just sort of like the simple matter of the fact. And that is like the only reason I really want downstate to transfer is I wanted to go, I wanted to get the Tony for best play because it fucking deserves it. And then once it closes, I want theater companies all over to be brave enough to do it and not just do Noises off for the 9,000th time. Much as I love noises off and I feel like sometimes that happens with a lot of off Broadway musicals is like the legitimacy of once you. Of getting to Broadway and the having the larger. I was having. Having more eyes on it once it moves, you know, it's sort of like it doesn't matter if you had a successful run off Broadway and then you had an unsuccessful run on Broadway. More people are going to know about you anyway. And that's why I feel like a lot of off Broadway musicals want to do that transfer, want to take that risk because they're like, I just, I want the visibility. I want people to know about me. Yeah, a shame, because there are some shows like, like title the show which really, as much as I love it, really should never have transferred to Broadway. That like, that's just a show that doesn't really fit there. It's a wonderful piece.

[B]

Yeah, I'll say. I saw it. It's the only Broadway show I've seen. I saw it four days in a row.

[A]

I saw, I saw it at the end of previews and I went to the closing night performance because I am that bitch. But I don't view their run as a failure. I think it, the fact that it ran for 100 plus performances as, you know, being the show that it is, is a huge get. It's. That is a show that in another time would have run for four years off Broadway. And like Been a huge hit that way. But that's just sort of not how the Off Broadway scene works anymore.

[B]

I mean, you know, we talk about this, we, you know, regional in Chicago, we would talk a lot about like, what do you do with a hit show when this next show in the subscription series is coming up?

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Only extend for so long and you're selling out and you're selling out and you're selling out and then you gotta close even though you. We could have run it another five, six months. It's hard.

[A]

Yeah, it is hard. Well, that's why, you know, it's all circumstantial. Right. And you know, the National Theater in London used to get criticized a lot for this for producing stuff that would then transfer to the West End. And a lot of, you know, theater stops would go, oh, they're just out to make money. And you know, with the War Horses and all these musicals and it's like, well, no, when, when they create something that's really special that audiences connect to. Isn't the whole point of theater is, you know, you want as many people to experience something special as possible and when you're a subscriber based theater that, you know, eventually the next show has to come in. Why limit the number of people who see it if you have the opportunity to make it go even longer someplace? And that's, I mean that's, I guess that's a positive way to view the Off Broadway to Broadway transfer. Sometimes it's like, well.

[B]

Well, accessibility, except for ticket price. But like the idea that like more people are going to get to see this is a home.

[A]

Yeah, exactly. And with Broadway, often, especially with musicals, it tends to be for an open ended run. You know, you close once the market dries up for that piece and until that happens, no many people will just come to go see it. And yeah, ticket affordable. How affording affordable tickets are is obviously a huge hurdle that a lot of shows need to fucking figure out. But even off Broadway, like there are pricey tickets off Broadway and for some reason people are more willing to put down the 200 for a Broadway show than the like $95 for the off Broadway show. Even if it's the same length or running time and it's, you know, the same quality, they just, they're more willing to do that for Broadway. It's just, it's the stigma of the title, unfortunately.

[B]

Honestly, sometimes for me, I know that the artists are getting paid more.

[A]

Oh, that too, yeah.

[B]

Oh, I'm willing to pay more money. It's A lazy afternoon. And the beater bugs are zoomed in blooming. And the tulip trees are bloomin. And there's not another human in view.

[A]

But us, too.

[B]

I wanna. I wanna detour. Well, no, never mind. We can do this later. I want to play a game. I want to introduce you to a game.

[A]

Introduce me to the game. Do it now. I have a game we have to play at the end, so.

[B]

Oh, then we'll play your game. Let's play your game.

[A]

Well, no, my game. My game is at the very end. And the only reason why we bring up Sally Murphy, Alex, is because she's part of the game. As is Janine Tesori.

[B]

Oh, boy.

[A]

Oh, yeah. Oh, it's gonna be hard. I have to. We're gonna have to go on IBDB for this one.

[B]

I don't. I'm up for the challenge.

[A]

Well, only because of the Golden Apple. Not because I. Oh, okay.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

Yeah. It is six degrees of Sally Murphy and Janine Tesori. But the Janine Tossori, we just call it who Lives, who Dies Janine Tesori. But it's essentially, you have to figure out six degrees from the Golden Apple to Janine Tesori, and you have to figure out six degrees from the Golden Apple to Sally Murphy. Right. Yeah.

[B]

I don't. I don't doubt us at all. So this I stole from another podcast called this Head Oscar Buzz, which I love.

[A]

I love this had Oscar buzz.

[B]

Okay. So you probably will know this game, the IMDb game. It's not the IMDb game. It's alter Egos.

[A]

Ooh.

[B]

Okay, so what they do is they. They name three characters in a movie. You have to figure out who the actors are and then say what movie they were in together. What I do is I name three characters from a musical. You have to figure out who the actors were on opening night and then say what musical the three of them were in together on opening night. And I say opening night because I think for the purposes of this game, I don't include replacements. I don't include major regional productions. It's sort of like if there's a cast recording, if it happened in New York, that counts. So, for example, if I say to you, am Neris Fiero and the baker's.

[A]

Wife, 30 round scoundrels.

[B]

Exactly.

[A]

Sharon A. Scott. Nobody butts Joanna Gleason, baby.

[B]

But I could have said. I could have meant Sara Bareilles. I could have meant Carrie o'. Malley.

[A]

Like, sure, you could have, but I know you didn't.

[B]

But you Know.

[A]

Yeah, but it's got it. No. Oh. So. So we can do revivals of said show, but as long as it's the opening night cast of that revival.

[B]

Yeah. And you're good. I know you're gonna be good at this. So I'm like, maybe we'll go really hard to start, or maybe we'll do another easy one. That's like my go to. To explain the game.

[A]

I love it, love it, love it. Do you have. Do you have these guys written down?

[B]

If you give me. Do you have a. Do you have a heart out?

[A]

I don't have a heart out now.

[B]

Okay, give me a few. Give me like three minutes to find it in a text thread.

[A]

Okay. What if. What. So. Okay, let me. I'm gonna now think of one for you. Okay. This one's gonna be easy.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

Bringing it. Bringing it back to things. I know. Okay, ready? Okay, ready. Julie Jordan. Julie Jordan.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Che Guevara and Porgy.

[B]

Wild Party.

[A]

There you go.

[B]

So who's Che Guevara, though? Hold on. So it's Sally Murphy. It's Norm Lewis and Che Guevara.

[A]

Well, just Che, really. But yeah, in the. In the original, he was.

[B]

Oh, Mandy. Jesus Christ.

[A]

Patinkin if you're nasty.

[B]

Okay, here we go.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

King George.

[A]

Prior Walter.

[B]

Wednesday Addams.

[A]

Oh, Spring Awakening.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Show your work. Show your work.

[A]

Okay, so we have Jonathan Groff, our King George. We have our prior Walter, the original, the best Prior Walter. Stephen Spinella, Wednesday Adams, Mr. Rodriguez.

[B]

I love this.

[A]

I'm excited.

[B]

Okay, here we go.

[A]

The Beast.

[B]

Cassie Pippen Hansen.

[A]

Peggy. Wait, who? Hansen.

[B]

Heidi Hansen.

[A]

Heidi Hansen. Yeah. Pippen. Yeah.

[B]

Pippen.

[A]

Yeah. Terrence Mann, Charlotte Demoise and Rachel Bay Jones.

[B]

I knew you'd be good at this. All right, here's another one. Homer Van de Gelder. Wife.

[A]

Homer Pantogelder and wife.

[B]

Yeah. We're getting harder because you. You can take it.

[A]

Wow, that's back to Grindr here. I'm. I keep thinking it's Horace Vantage. Elder. Right? Okay. Wife. Homer. Huh?

[B]

Yeah. This is a hard one, Matt. I hope you can get.

[A]

It's difficult. Well, I'm trying to think what the wife is.

[B]

You can think out loud. Think out loud.

[A]

Okay. Yeah. Homer. First I hear Homer, and all I think is the Simpsons. But that's not right. Is Homer. God, I don't. I can't think of what show Homer is.

[B]

Think of it being said out loud. What kind of a voice is going to say it? Maybe.

[A]

What kind of voice is going to say Homer, I'LL tell you.

[B]

We've already talked. We've. We've mentioned it on. In this recording.

[A]

We've mentioned this show that Homer is in. In this recording. Correct. Oh, Jesus Christ. And then wife. Have we mentioned the show that wife is in? No. Damn. Is this a musical? Wife?

[B]

Yes.

[A]

Okay, so first of all, I hear Van and Gelder. All I can think of is David Hyde Pierce.

[B]

I'm gonna tell you that.

[A]

That's correct. That is correct. Okay. And we're taught these three were in a musical together.

[B]

Correct.

[A]

So that would mean. Oh, wait. So, okay. I want to be very careful about this. Oh, wait, no, no. Part of me wants to say spam a lot because Hank Azaria with Simpsons and Homer, but Hank is. There didn't play Homer. And that's also not a musical, that's a TV show. I'm gonna say Curtains, which is correct, but I don't know. So wife would be. Oh, Karen's Yamba in Contact. Correct.

[B]

Her Tony Award winning role as wife.

[A]

Okay. I'm so proud of myself for figuring that one out. So fucking proud. Homer. Okay. Oh, fucking Jason Danieli and Floyd Collins. There we go.

[B]

There you go.

[A]

There we go. She got there. I had to work my way back from the answer. Okay. Amazing. That's. I like that game a lot. I. I can start playing that soon as well. Anything else we want to cover about Golden Apple, but this score with the show, with the structure, with the actors or anything like that.

[B]

I mean, we haven't talked about the cast recording and how they wrote these fake limericks to help with the narration. Yeah, Absolutely ridiculous. They are.

[A]

They're. Yeah, they're trying to make the show make sense to the uneducated listener, and it's just not. It interrupts the flow. It doesn't. It doesn't really help. It's detrimental, in my opinion. But this was at a time where you didn't really do the full score. If it was this kind of score.

[B]

I mean, the first time that we had that was they did a three. It would have been. It wouldn't have been a disc, but it would have been a three record recording of the Most Happy Fella.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Everything else, the score had to be condensed to fit on one LP.

[A]

Yeah. And most happy fella, I think, is two years after this. That's. It's like 56, right?

[B]

I believe so. You know what? I do have to pee so badly again.

[A]

Don't be. Again. Go pee again. Actually, Alex, you know, we need to do. We should take one more break with You. How do you mean? You're the top. Yeah.

[B]

You're an arrow caller.

[A]

You're the top. And we're back. So we were mentioning Most Happy Fellow. Like, I think. Yeah, that's two years after Golden Apple. I'm pretty sure. I think that's 5556.

[B]

Let me. Let me consult my Patankin.

[A]

Good consult. It's. It's. I know it's the year of My Fair lady, because that was another really good Best musical lineup. It's 1956 Tony Awards. I'm pretty sure it's Most Happy Fella, My Fair Lady, Bells Are Ringing, and what we got. What we got? What we got? What is it? Damn. In keys. No.

[B]

Right. Because Judy Holiday beat Julie Andrews.

[A]

Yep. That was. I know that's one that a lot of people are like, say what? But it's hard to really emphasize. Just. Yeah. So this was. This was My Fair Lady, Bells Are Ringing, Candide, Most Happy Fella. Which, like, talk about a fucking lineup of scores. That is, like, how do you choose? You choose.

[B]

Say that one more time.

[A]

The best musical lineup of. It's 1957 Tony Awards, my Fair Lady.

[B]

Between my.

[A]

Yes. Most Happy Fella, Bells Are Ringing, Candide and Bells Are Ringing. Wow. All four offer you something very different and very good. But, yeah, because, like, I mean, Candide is. I guess at that point, because Candide was truly a book musical. There was dialogue and everything. It wasn't quite as expansive a musical score as Most Happy Fella, which was almost entirely sung through. Most Happy Fella has a little bit of dialogue, but it's. I would say it's like 98, 95 sung.

[B]

Oh, I. I don't think that's true. I think there's some book scenes in there.

[A]

I don't. I mean, granted, it's been a minute since I saw it. Encores. I recall there being some dialogue like, it's not Golden Apple, which is completely.

[B]

I saw it. The only time I've ever seen it was at Ravinia.

[A]

Who did it at Ravinia?

[B]

George Hearn.

[A]

Ooh, Fuck me up. That sounds amazing. That is such good casting. Yeah. Most Happy Fella opened on Broadway at the end of 1956. October of 56, I believe. And. But also the difference between Most Happy Fella and Golden Apple, first of all, Frank Lesser, well known musical theater writer at that point with Where's Charlie and Guys and Dolls. But also Most Happy Fella was a success. It was a. It was a successful musical. So there was incentive to. To record the entire Thing, whereas something like Golden Apple, they're like, I don't know, guys. We're basically doing you a favor by recording any of this. So, like, we're not going to do that whole thing.

[B]

Back then the record companies would bid and they would become producers on the musical.

[A]

Isn't it crazy how musical theater history works?

[B]

That's amazing.

[A]

Yeah, but, yeah, I mean, there is a full recording of the Golden Apple and it is a solid recording. The voices are a little more operatic than they are musical theater. There's one of the women. I think it's Lovey Mars has kind of more of a musical theater singing voice, and she's the one who does Gunaguna in Act 2, but it is more. It's more operatic. I would like to. I would truly would have liked to have a full recording of the original company because I would like to hear Kate Ballard do that whole score. We only really have her doing Lazy Afternoon and I think Picture in the papers. Yeah. Yeah. Lazy Afternoon definitely has, like, Jones and Schmidt vibes, though. Like, it's a seduction song, but it's not. It's not comedic and it's not overt. It's just very. I don't know, there's like a humidity to it and the whole. Like that whole melody line, it's just kind of slowly going down the scale and it. And it sits in sort of like the lower register of the woman's voice. So it's just very. I don't know, it's like a very slow bang.

[B]

Yeah, I think that it's. I. I have to say, I liked listening to the cd, but parts of the score popped for me more watching that 1977 YouTube presentation that they did, which really cobbles it down to, like, only an hour. But there was something about. They were having a lot of fun. And there were moments when listening to the CD that I was like. Is sort of what I was talking about before. Like, I. I feels like this is taking itself a little seriously.

[A]

The. The theater under the. Under the Stars one or the Broadway one?

[B]

The Broadway one.

[A]

Okay. Yeah.

[B]

And I loved how fun the. And there were other songs. Like, there were different songs, which. Oh, and I wrote down. I wrote nothing ever happens in Angel's Roost.

[A]

Huh?

[B]

It's like nothing ever happens in Blaine.

[A]

Kinda. Yeah.

[B]

Like nothing ever happens in playing.

[A]

Boring. Boring. Nothing ever happens on Mars. No fancy cars. Yeah, it's. There is sort of like. There is a trope in musical theater that gets used a lot of the. Like, this town is too small. For me, Gotta get out of Here song. And I can't think of a musical before Golden Apple that really did that. Maybe. Maybe I'm just being stupid, but, like.

[B]

Gotta get out of this small town.

[A]

The Christine Baranski and Christmas on the Square. Yeah. Gotta get out of this Town moment. But. But, like, that whole. Yeah. Helen enters the scene and what she says is, you know, nothing ever happens here. And I.

[B]

Sorry, I'm interrupting you.

[A]

No, no. What did you say? That's.

[B]

Wouldn't you argue that that is.

[A]

The.

[B]

Foundation of Damn Yankees? I gotta get out of this boring life.

[A]

I don't know. I mean, Damn Yankees, the opening song of Damn Yankees, is the conflict of the husband, of the husbands and the wives of, like, you know, half the year, I don't even feel married. And, you know, these men who are. It's not about, like, I gotta get out of this boring life. It's just sort of, you know, this is a major issue in my life. And. But it's also played for comedy. And then, I mean, I guess you could argue, like, Damn Yankees follows a similar structure of Golden Apple where, like, the husband goes off to this great adventure and realizes all he wants is to go back home. Yeah. And. And that's, you know, I don't know how what Dame Yankees is trying to say at the end, like, if he's still going to love baseball, but in a less intense way now that he's done the damn thing. But, yeah, I don't know. Damage doesn't really give me that whole, like, I gotta get out of this. I'm trying to think of other musicals that do the whole, like, Gotta get Out of Town. I literally just went to a reading of a pretty awful musical. I won't say anything more about it, but, like, the opening song is sort of like, nothing happens in my small town. But this is to say, there are so many musicals that do the whole, like, you know, gotta get out of this town. And I feel like Golden Apple is doing it not satirically, but definitely kind of with a bit of commentary.

[B]

I don't get that at all, actually.

[A]

You don't get that it's a commentary bit?

[B]

No, I just don't. I don't. I Gotta get out of this Town isn't a takeaway for me at all.

[A]

Well, it's not. That's not so much I Gotta get out because it's. It's more. I Gotta get out is. You know, that's more like the. I want.

[B]

There's so much plot that it's Hard to grab onto anyone.

[A]

Yeah. It's. It's. It's the Helen of it all. Of. Helen is clearly dissatisfied with.

[B]

She's in that town for days and days and days.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

As Helen's always are.

[A]

Yeah. Helen's got a Helen. You know what I mean?

[B]

Helen's got to sit at that piano and cry to her lesbian daughter.

[A]

Oh, my God.

[B]

You didn't even see my reference.

[A]

I. Of course I got that reference. That's my Kunzy. The. One of the greatest voices to ever hit Broadway.

[B]

Oh, yeah.

[A]

Listen, Barbara Cook can sing Vanilla Ice Cream. But. But, but can Barbara Cook do nobody side? Elaine Page can do nobody side, but can Elaine Page do Vanilla Ice Cream? No. Only Judy Kuhn.

[B]

I. I love Chief T. Show me.

[A]

Someone who does not like Judy Kuhn's singing voice, and I will show you a sociopath. Wow.

[B]

It feels like a challenge.

[A]

Anyway, but the. The Angels roof song. Yeah, it's not. It's not Helen being like, I gotta get out. But it is Helen dissatisfied with it. Right. It's, you know, she's saying, like, nothing happens here. You're born, you're born, you live, you die.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Three though it plants the seed for us so that when Helen gets whisked away by Paris, like, we know that she's dissatisfied. So it does. It's. It makes sense that she would hop the first hot air balloon out of there, which I want to emphasize. And again, everybody, a literal air balloon. Yes. Helen hops out of there in a hot air balloon because there are no cars yet. It's like 1900, but it's not even a horse and buggy, you know, it's just hot air balloon. Wizard of Oz, baby.

[B]

Was it a buzz baby? Yeah.

[A]

Number. Number one form of transportation. Yeah. What? Anything else we didn't, like, really discuss? I feel like we discussed our feelings on the show, not necessarily all the details of it, which is fine. I feel like this is the show. If people. If. If Alex and I made you at all intrigued into listening to the show, do yourself. Do not listen to the Broadway cast recording. It is super truncated.

[B]

I'm full of regret. I'm full of regret that I did.

[A]

Yeah. It's. I mean, it's. It's fun to listen to, like, the original orchestra and cast and whatnot, but you just want. You want to hear them do the whole thing. There is a cast recording, and I believe it is theater under the stars that did it. And it is the whole score. It's the whole score. So if you want to listen to it. Definitely listen to that. There's. There's great music in there. There's absolutely great music in there. But it is. It is not an easy show to fall in love with. I have found.

[B]

It'S so interesting because they didn't write anything else, really, that we know.

[A]

Well, Morose went back to film. He did not. He was not of the theater world, really. So he. Once it was done, he was like, yeah, I'm going back to what I know. What did latouche do after this? Besides, we're working on Candide for five seconds and then peace out.

[B]

The vamp.

[A]

The Vamp with Ms. Carol Channing.

[B]

This was sort of at the end of his career, actually, the Golden Apple.

[A]

Interesting. Well, he went out.

[B]

He died in 1956. He died.

[A]

He was.

[B]

He'd be dead in two years.

[A]

That's his excuse for not writing anymore. Come on, please.

[B]

Oh, he's young. He died young.

[A]

That's a shame. But listen, Fred Ebb died. We're still getting his musicals.

[B]

We are still getting new Fred Ebb musicals.

[A]

I love every time there's a new Kander and Ebb show coming out, they're, like, pitched to the Tony Awards every year. Like, starting with Curtains, then Scotts Row Boys and the Visit, and now with New York, New York, they're like, this is the last Kander and Ebb score. You should reward it. Give it best score, because you'll never get the chance again. And it's like seven years later, we get another Kander and Ebb show.

[B]

So funny.

[A]

Like, oh, we forgot we were writing this one, too. Here you go.

[B]

I'm excited to play your game. Oh, it's.

[A]

Well, yeah. Okay.

[B]

But I don't want to rush us. I don't want to rush us.

[A]

Well, anything else? We want to. We want to. Golden apple with the apple of golden.

[B]

If you've got an hour, watch. Watch that 1977 TV capture.

[A]

Yeah, she's fun.

[B]

You're nothing else than. The performances are really fun.

[A]

Yeah. I will also say it is a. It is a clever repurposing of Iliad and Odyssey. Like, I think they do a good job of making that story work for the. For the story that they remake it into.

[B]

You know, do you love the Iliad and the Odyssey? Like, do you have a relationship to that source material?

[A]

I mean, I. I read it in school, and I remember we. We would read it at home and then talk about it in class. And in class that I was. I would always think, is this story more interesting than I think it is because, like, I'd read it and be so bored and then we would talk about it and I'd be like, oh, yeah, like a lot of cool stuff happens. Just you read it and you want to die. But I. Yeah, so I don't like, love it. I don't have a deep emotional connection to it. But when you sort of like break down the whole plot of it, so, like its essence, it sounds like a very exciting time.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And I guess that's why the hour long golden apple is so good for you. Because it's like, well, if we cut all the out, like there's. There's some fun stuff going on.

[B]

A bite sized apple.

[A]

A. What are those small apples called?

[B]

Little gems. Baby gems. No.

[A]

Maybe. No, I wanted to say Macintosh, but that's not right because Macintoshes are big and red. Yeah. Like a gala apple, maybe.

[B]

Huh. That's a big crossword answer.

[A]

I did just do a crossword. So I'm.

[B]

I've yet to do. I'm halfway through the Sunday. I will get to it later.

[A]

Oh, I don't. I don't even touch the times. I do the easy, medium New Yorker ones, but I do it in pen so I can feel smart.

[B]

The New Yorker ones can be tricky. We do that. We would do those in our dressing room and we would race. We'd start at half hour and see who could finish by the time the show starts. Spoiler. I did.

[A]

Well, yes. As we've now learned, everybody, Alex Weisman, smart cookie. He's a. He's a smart apple. So, yeah, I mean, so like the show ends, right? It ends with Helen comes back to Angels ruse after going to the big city of Rhododendron with Paris, and it's like nothing ever happened. You know, she and her husband come back and she's like, yeah, I'm happy to be back, I guess. And Ulysses comes back after 10 years and he and Penelope just sort of saying, like, we can start again after all these years. But like they're. What would we say the central conflict of Penelope and Ulysses is in Act 1 and how they resolve it in Act 2. It's. He wants to experience the world and she wants to sit on the porch.

[B]

Yeah. And isn't it. My gosh, hold on. I'm looking at the summary right now. Well, she's married. She marries someone else. That's essential conflict, isn't it?

[A]

No, Penelope doesn't marry somebody else.

[B]

Oh, Penelope.

[A]

Yeah. Not Helen. Penelope. Penelope and Ulysses, like their central conflict.

[B]

Well, there's not Really a conflict. Well, she's the most. She's an incredibly passive character.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Conflict is the mother hair of it all who comes in and is like, never mind.

[A]

Yeah, Motherhair comes in and fuck shit up. I love Mother hair. First of all, she. She gets really good revenge on her enemies. Passive aggressive revenge, too. So, like, it's. It takes a while to trace back everything to her. But then also when Helen's like, I'm gonna go chase that dick to rhododendron, Mother Hair is the only one who's like, that's. That's it, girl. You ride. And everyone else is just being. Yeah, right on into the sunset. There's that song from Ragtime Journey on Mother Harrison. Ride it on. Ride it on. One slut passing on a big dick from a Paris in a hot air balloon. But so I know I like mother hair. There are. There are some good roles for women in this show. It's just that I think the number one role, like the main role for a woman in the show is the least interesting one, which I don't think that was intentional. I think they tried to make Penelope, like, a really meaty dramatic role, and I just don't give two shits.

[B]

I think ultimately my takeaway is that it's trying to be too many musicals at the same time.

[A]

Yeah, that's fair. It's intelligent. It's not always effective. It is a musical that people.

[B]

Aficionados.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

People who are not dissimilar to you and I, Matt, love this musical.

[A]

First of all, Alex, there's no one like us in the world. We are so unique and special.

[B]

Yeah, unique. But I'm not. I don't know that I'm gonna go walk on the street and tell everyone that I love the Golden Apple if I'm being honest with you.

[A]

Well, if I'm also being honest with you, those same that love this show who are super, like, elitist and esoteric, those are the same people that would have you believe that Sunset Boulevard is not only Andrew Lloyd Webber's best musical, but it's actually a very good musical. And I'm here to tell you that's simply not true. It's not a very good musical, and it's not his best.

[B]

Can I tell you that I was on a date last night.

[A]

Strike number one.

[B]

I don't know whether you should keep this or not. And a man told me that Sunset Boulevard is his favorite musical and he made a case for it. And you know what?

[A]

I.

[B]

Here's what I always say to People, I say when you tell me what your favorite of something is, that you are not telling me what the best of something is 1000%. And so I appreciate that. But it's very funny that you said that about Sunset Boulevard.

[A]

We're absolutely keeping that in because I have no problems dragging that show through the mud. I hate that musical so much.

[B]

I, I, I just, I, I don't want people to think that I'm not an elitist snob, because I definitely am.

[A]

Well, I don't know about you. I can speak for myself. I, My tastes go all over the place. I, My, my cunty answer is always, I gravitate towards quality. But the, but what I mean is, like, good work can come from any genre and from anywhere, right? So I do not. What's the one for? I don't, I don't just discriminate. Yeah, thank you. I don't. God, I'm so stupid. I don't discriminate. I love all kinds of shows. I love all kinds of plays, musicals, movies, books, whatever. But as long as it is a story that I think is a. Worth telling and told very well, I'm happy to see it. So, like, for every Kimberly Akimbo fun home, I also saw Mamma Mia. Quite a few times. You know, I, I will watch an episode of Sex and the City in addition to Fleabag. I will read. I will fucking plow through all four volumes of Heartstopper and then go back and read John Steinbeck. Like, I don't care. I love all of it. So I am elitist. But also, like, I don't. There are so many other kinds of things that I love. Like, in so many ways, you would think I would love the Golden Apple because I love intelligent works. I love shows that do weird things and try new things. And there is a lot that I do like about the Golden Apple. But as I said earlier, I more admire it than love it. Yeah. And it has a very important historical context. But you asked earlier, like, why is it that this show has not caught on more as a cult show in the same way that, like, Candide did, or maybe like a Mac and Mabel. But I think part of that is the fact that, like, there is a bit of a coldness to this show, a little bit of a distance, in that its intelligence overpowers any emotional connection that a lot of people could possibly have to it, you know? And then as you said also earlier, like, it's trying to be too much. It does so many things, and it does a lot of things well, but sometimes it's not that it's too many cooks in the kitchen, but just too many ingredients in the kitchen. All high quality stuff. But like, I don't know, you throw the best basil in the world together with the best strawberry with the best sugar and the best salt. You don't get the best pie.

[B]

You don't get the best pie. And you know who'd be the first to tell you that?

[A]

Mother Hair or Lovey Mars or, or Print or Paris.

[B]

Isn't he. Doesn't he judge it?

[A]

Paris is the one who judges it.

[B]

Okay, Matt, I could not follow this musical girl.

[A]

No, you said this before. You said this before that you were gonna mess up character names. You're gonna mess up all of it. And you are true to your word. Paris is the one who judges because he's considered, Was it impartial? He's considered an impartial judge because he's from the outside and doesn't know these women.

[B]

And just to be. Just because this is a podcast which will live in perpetuity. I was kidding. I, I am a snob. I can be snobby. I don't think I'm an elitist. I do think I can be snobby, but I don't think I'm an elitist.

[A]

I, I just want to be very clear. No, I'm, I'm a raging. I have said on more than one occasion to people when, you know, discussing, you know, artistic works and people say things that they love, that they think are great, that I think are garbage. And like, well, that's just my opinion. And like, they'll try to explain themselves and I'll go, no, no, you don't understand. I go, I understand your opinion. I don't respect it. And it has definitely.

[B]

You're just yucking there, aren't you?

[A]

Oh, no, I, I, I play with fucking sharp ass knives. But I, I usually say that jokingly. The truth is, like, when you are. So I'm getting this vibe from you as well, which is what I'm loving about you is like when you are so confident in your taste, when you know it is what you like and why you like it, and you're, and you can really stand behind the things you love. And even, even when you can recognize that something is well made and you, it's not for you or you love something, but also recognize that it's not the best, that comes from a lot of objectivity when looking at this kind of stuff. But there's also just a confidence in your own taste that puts a lot of people off because other people's opinions matter less to you about something. Like if you love something and you recognize the flaws and the merits of it and it doesn't matter what anyone else, what anyone else can say about it, they'll come up to you, be like, well, I hate that show. It's like, okay, I'm sorry, you don't like it and they can't convince you otherwise. They hate that. They really, really, really want you to understand why their opinion is right. I'm like, no, I'm sure you think your opinion is right, sweetie, but I'm going to sit here and love it anyway. Or hate it anyway.

[B]

Well said.

[A]

It's why we're never going to actually fully talk about the in the Heights movie because we're just going to completely come at it and pass every time. We're just going to meet in the middle and never fully come over to the other one's side.

[B]

I mean, I think that part of being confident in your own taste is like, absolutely making space for some. Like, I always, I, I always do make space for some. Like, I, I want someone to disagree with me.

[A]

Oh, yeah.

[B]

I don't know how easily you'll be able to change my mind, but I love talking about why we see something differently.

[A]

I always want.

[B]

That's why as a Trump voting Republican, I often find myself. I'm kidding.

[A]

Bada bang. No, I listen after everything I just said about the confidence and the taste and all that, I have to say, I am always waiting for someone to change my mind. And it has happened. Not often, but it has happened not so much in terms of, like, I went from liking some, hating something to liking something or liking something to hating something. But things about shows that maybe I never really processed before. Like there's, there's a certain, sometimes there are certain viewpoints that come to me from someone else's perspective and I go, oh, never thought of that before. And it, and it definitely makes me view a piece of differently and it's really exciting that way.

[B]

Yeah. Especially I think, having conversations with people who are not of the same demographic as you, whether it's sexuality, race, religion, socioeconomic background. Like, I think it's important to have those conversations. I, I, you know, talking to.

[A]

People.

[B]

About shows that have, you know, they're just issues of representation that I could never fully be able to talk about because I'm a CIS white man.

[A]

Sure.

[B]

And so my, the way that I view something is going to come through that lens. We're getting a little heady here, but I think you know what I mean.

[A]

Yeah. Well, first of all, this is a podcast where we always get heady, and if ever there was a musical to.

[B]

Discuss, I wouldn't get any.

[A]

Yeah, yeah. No, I mean, that's the thing is, like, you can only really talk from your own perspective, right? From the. From the walks of life that you have led and con. And that's. That's the whole point of learning, though, and. And. And expanding your brain is from meeting, as you said, like, what? Meeting people of different backgrounds, different races, religions, genders, what sexualities, what have you. It can just sort of give you more to think about and expands your mental capacity of how to take in the world and how to see the world, which is why I really hate that Ulysses goes to the big old city, and all he can say to himself is, well, I guess my small town life is much better than this. I'm like, there are so many people you didn't talk to. You went to Rhododendron and you did a fight and you bought a suit. But did you talk to a single woman about her experience living in this world? Do you talk to a single person of color? A single. A single homosexual? I don't think a single Jewish person? I don't think you did. Ulysses, he. So he went back.

[B]

I mean, I think based on the 1977 TV production, I think he may have spoken to a homosexual or two.

[A]

But did they announce themselves as homosexual, or did they just come on and go, Helen's always willing.

[B]

They got some bandanas, man. What are the. Don't bandanas mean things back then? Red bandana around your neck? What does that mean? What does that mean? You like. You like to be peed on? I don't know. I don't know bandana culture from the 70s, but they did. They were communicating. And isn't that what we're here to do? We're just here to communicate?

[A]

I can't breathe. That's. That's really. The message of the golden apple is. All right, y', all, how do we communicate homosexuality? Through bandanas?

[B]

Golden apple. More like golden shower. Am I right?

[A]

And it leads to a golden rainbow, then bring it back around. Okay, Alex, now we're gonna wrap things up, and we're gonna do. We're gonna do the game. We are gonna do who lives, who dies, Jeanine Tesori and Six degrees of Sally Murphy. Okay? They are the same game, just different titles. Great.

[B]

I'm gonna challenge us. Wait, is this something we do together.

[A]

We can do it. So I've. I've usually done the Sally Murphy one and have the guests do the Jeanine Tesori one and then if they can't do either, I will do both. But let's do it together because I feel like we can figure out.

[B]

I'm going to say let's not use IMDb. Let's not use I. We have to do this from our brains.

[A]

Yes, the we have. So similar to your game, it can. Can only be opening. I cast, no replacements. We can use production staff. So like, you do a creative. Yeah, we can do creative teams, writers, directors. Can a writer.

[B]

If a per. If a person was in the original production of a writer's show, can I then jump to someone who was in the revival of that writer show or no?

[A]

Yes. So like. So I'll give you the example of what I'm currently thinking of and I don't know if this will count or not. So we'll see. So John latouche is who wrote Golden Apple, did contribute to Candide. He is accredited person on the creative team. That original production starred Barbara Cook.

[B]

Barbara Cook. And that's how you want to go?

[A]

Yes. Who. And so do you know how I can get to Janine to. Sorry. From Barbara Cook.

[B]

How to get to Janine Tesori from.

[A]

Barbara Cook.

[B]

With only one more step.

[A]

With only. Well, I think there's two more from there. Oh, yeah, I guess we'll. This is definitely how I can get to Sally Murphy. I don't know if I can get to story from this.

[B]

Oh, I can get to Sally Murphy from that really easily.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Barbara Cook to Norm Lewis and Sonde Man Sondheim to Sally Murphy in the Wild Party.

[A]

Absolutely. I've done a lot. Yeah, I've done a lot of Norm Lewis to Sally Murphy connections on this. Well, of course.

[B]

So I would say so if I may now. So I'll do the Tesori of it all. So I'm going to show my work. I'm going to think out loud. But my impulse is to go Stephen Douglas.

[A]

To Gwen Verdon in Damn Yankees. Yes, yes, yes.

[B]

Gwen Verdon to Cheetah Rivera in Chicago. And that gives us a plethora of choices spanning decades.

[A]

Sure, sure.

[B]

So if we're gonna get to. Sorry.

[A]

Oh, oh, oh.

[B]

I have to get in less than six, don't I?

[A]

Well, so we've done Stephen Douglas to Gwen Verdon. Yeah. Vernon to Cheetahs. That's two. You got four more to go.

[B]

Okay. So why don't we do. Why don't we do. Oh, this is hard.

[A]

It is difficult part, because I. Because. Oh.

[B]

I'm thinking nine. I'm thinking of all my girls in nine. Right?

[A]

In nine. The original nine or the. Oh, the revival nine. Yeah. She. Very nine.

[B]

We can get from Benanti to Tesori very quickly.

[A]

Well, yes. So you could do Benanti in the revival of Sounding Music, where Janine Tesori did do the dance arrangements, but if we want to.

[B]

Not going to count that.

[A]

Yeah, if we're going to. If we're going to do strictly Tesori herself is the composer. I guess what we could do is.

[B]

Oh, I got it. I got it.

[A]

He's got. Oh, yeah, you got it.

[B]

Peter Rivera to. To Jane Krakowski. To Gavin Creel.

[A]

And she loves me. Or Benanti. She loves me. And then Gavin Creel. Millie. Yeah. Good job. Good job. Good job, buddy.

[B]

Oh, that's fine.

[A]

Isn't it fun? And the truth, like, the truth is, with the six trees, you really can figure it out for both of them. I mean, I'm sure you could do it for anybody, but. Yeah, especially when you include creative teams. But so far, I mean, mostly we. I've only done performers. I've. I've. I've had a couple of creative team connections. Whenever you include Bob Crowley, like, you're. You're. Sky's the Limit, because it's like, how many shows is that designed? And you just go. And then he did Carousel that Sally was in.

[B]

But, yeah, here's a little glimpse into me. I used to do this in high school when, you know, when you'd finish an AP exam, and then you had two hours left because you finished it quickly. You just had to sit there with your little red, your little blue book. I would do Six degrees of separation from Tony Award winning actress to the one who won in her previous year, to the one who won the previous year. And this was 2006, so it was like Lachanze to Victoria Clark to Idina Menzel to Jarrett Winoker. And that's the nerdy things I would do.

[A]

Wait, you would find a way to connect them via, like, Six Degrees.

[B]

Yeah, the game we just played.

[A]

Okay, so Lashan's to Victoria Clark. I want to see if I can. If I can do this one. Okay.

[B]

Okay, so, Lashan, now remember, it's 2006. You can't.

[A]

Okay, so I gotta think everything pre. Color Purple. Yes. Yeah. Am I allowed to include, like, being a replacement in something or.

[B]

No, no. And also, I Never included creative staff. It was always just actors.

[A]

Okay, so Lashanz did Company, Right?

[B]

Exactly.

[A]

Yeah. With. I want to say Charlotte. And was. Is that a good one to connect to probably.

[B]

Or I, I always. Deborah Monk with Vicki Clark Victoria. I. I don't know why we.

[A]

Listen, we're gonna call her Vicki because we're her. We're her companions.

[B]

I always go to Titanic.

[A]

Sure.

[B]

Because you got Brian Darcy James. You got Michael Cerberus. You got Bring it to Tommy. Where you got Alex Ripley, you got Norm Lewis.

[A]

I kept trying to get her from Guys and Dolls, but that one's really just your ends for that are Nathan Lane and Faith Prince. So, yeah, Titanic would make. Would make a lot more sense even.

[B]

How to Succeed.

[A]

How to Succeed also works. Yeah. So the Sean's and company also. I mean start.

[B]

A lot of people got Danny Burstein. Yeah.

[A]

I'm trying to figure out exactly how we're going to get there. I'm going to say got Krakowski. Yeah, we do have. We. We do have Krakowski. I'm gonna say. I'm gonna. You know what I am gonna say? Deborah Monk.

[B]

Huh.

[A]

Who is in Assassins with Eddie Corbich.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Who was in Carousel with Brian Darcy James. Who is in Titanic with Victoria Clark.

[B]

There you go.

[A]

There we go. Oh, God. What is with our brains? How is it that this is the information that we can do?

[B]

Because we weren't playing sports.

[A]

Yes, we are. We were the indoor kids. That's. That is my Taylor Swift song. The indoor kids, they never saw the sun. But you know what? Our skin's gonna thank us for being so pale. We are gonna age like fine wine.

[B]

Oh, my gosh.

[A]

You look at, look at us. No one would ever believe that we're 50. No one.

[B]

No one would ever know.

[A]

No, it's being an indoor child and homosexuality. All those fluids, baby, they moisturize and they keep things tight.

[B]

Great.

[A]

That's great. And on that note, Alex, this has been a delight.

[B]

This has been so fun.

[A]

I've had so much. And you're definitely coming back. Don't you worry your pretty little head. If you want people to find you, where can they find you?

[B]

You can find me on Instagram @zilawu x e l A W U, U, which is a name that I came up with when I was 8 years old. For my AOL name, it's Alex backwards with a W for my middle name, William. And then U plus U is W for Wiseman. And I've had that since 1995.

[A]

Oh, 95, good. Year that was the Sunset Boulevard year. If you want to find me, I am only on Instagram at Matt Koplik. Usual spelling if you like the podcast. Five stars, please. Ratings are wonderful. No new reviews since we last recorded, which is a bummer, but it's fine. Join us next week for God knows what. I don't know. I. My recording schedule is all out of whack. I don't check anymore, and I don't know, you know, what the next show is going to be. This whole thing is out of order, and I love it. I love that danger of what's coming next. But yeah, keep. Keep your eyes peeled, everybody, in a week for whatever the next show is. Alex. We close out every episode with a Broadway diva. We add her in post, obviously, but we want to connect this to somebody Golden Apple related. We could do Ms. Ballard. We could do Ms. Mendez, who did the Encores production. Oh, wow. Yeah. Or we could. I don't know, we could do someone who we always wanted to have be in Golden Apple and sing Penelope. Or can we do, like.

[B]

Golden Apple adjacent?

[A]

Sure. It doesn't matter. Matter.

[B]

Then I want us to.

[A]

Can you.

[B]

Let's. Can we do a drop of Kristin Chenoweth singing Glitter and be gay? That's a bad. That's a bad answer. All right.

[A]

The Candide connection.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

All right.

[B]

I would love nothing more than to get me some Lindsay Mendez singing, some dog fight, some Pretty Funny.

[A]

We're gonna end on a bummer.

[B]

Yeah, but she's so good in that show. I'm. I want to make sure that I said that song. The name of the right song.

[A]

Yeah, Pretty, isn't it? Called Pretty Funny. That's the one where she.

[B]

Yeah, pretty Funny. Yeah.

[A]

Yeah. After the dog fight is over and she's all sad. Yeah, a sad Lindsay is a good Lindsay. Our favorite Lindsay Troy.

[B]

She just wants to get out of that town.

[A]

She. The one thing she does is get out of that town. But then she comes right on back. Get out, you gotta get Gotta get out of this town. There's no reason to wait around. Please tell me you've seen Christmas on the Square.

[B]

I have not seen Christmas on the score.

[A]

The season is upon us. It is time.

[B]

Have you seen the new Lindsay Lohan one?

[A]

No, I. So I start my new holiday movie viewings the day after Thanksgiving. Okay.

[B]

So the little girl in the Lindsay Lohan movie is. Plays my daughter on Sesame Street. So I love her, Olivia. She's amazing. And I think I have to watch this movie to support her.

[A]

Those. Those holiday movies. There's always some child in it, usually like a precocious kid sister. It's.

[B]

She's amazing.

[A]

So did she play Court Overstreet's kid sister? Is that what she plays?

[B]

Yeah, she's also Usnavi's daughter in the Heights movie.

[A]

No way. Yeah, that's fun.

[B]

We're all just walking in Olivia's path.

[A]

Yeah, she's what a. What a large, looming shadow she gives us. It's 110 in that shade. Anywho, join us next week, everybody. And Alex, you better watch Christmas on the Square. And everyone, have a great rest of your week. Enjoy Lindsay being sad for the next 30 seconds. Take us away, Lindsay. Bye. All disasters have an upside.

[B]

You can find one if you try.

[A]

You went dancing.

[B]

You were dancing. You were dancing with a guy. Isn't it funny.