THE HEIDI CHRONICLES w/ Jessie Field

Summary

Broadway Breakdown: "THE HEIDI CHRONICLES" w/ Jessie Field

Date: December 22, 2022
Host: Matt Koplik
Guest: Jessie Field

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Overview

This episode of Broadway Breakdown dives into Wendy Wasserstein’s seminal play, The Heidi Chronicles, as part of the “Big Move” series—chronicling shows that made the journey from Off-Broadway to Broadway. Host Matt Koplik and writer/playwright Jessie Field engage in an in-depth, passionate, and often hilarious analysis of the play’s themes, characters, and cultural impact. Their conversation is filled with personal anecdotes, critical insights about feminism, the boomer generation, the pitfalls of “having it all,” and the ongoing resonance of Wasserstein’s work.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Personal Connections to Wendy Wasserstein & The Heidi Chronicles

[02:49]

• Jessie shares how she first encountered Wasserstein, recalling her mother handing her a collection of her works, noting its significance as a female theater artist:

  “She said, you probably should read this, Jesse, as a living woman in theater. And I said, thanks.” – Jessie Field

• Jessie's ongoing admiration for Wasserstein's honesty and the generationally handed-down nature of engaging with her work.

• Both Matt and Jessie discuss the deeply personal and autobiographical feeling of Heidi Chronicles, noting its universal resonance despite being one woman's journey.

2. Wasserstein’s Place in Theater & The Play’s Trajectory

[07:42]

• Wasserstein’s ascent in American theater is traced, from Uncommon Women and Others to Isn’t It Romantic? up to The Heidi Chronicles.
• The play is discussed as the culmination of a decade-long rise, marking Wasserstein as a leading chronicler of women's lives on stage.
• Comparison to Harvey Fierstein’s Torch Song Trilogy: Both playwrights succeed by writing honestly and specifically, without "therapy play" navel-gazing.

3. Thematic Core: Feminism, Boomers, and "Having It All"

[13:30], [16:15], [22:00]

• The Heidi Chronicles is contextualized as a touchstone Boomer play, one of the first to wrestle openly with the post-60s/70s female experience—career, fulfillment, and the “myth” of having it all.

  "It's such a time capsule now, whereas back then, I'm sure it was the moment that's, yeah, everybody was feeling." – Jessie Field [16:15]

• The recurring motif of women’s self-worth being tied to men, relationships, and external validation.

4. “Can a Woman Have it All?”

[23:02]

• Jessie cites Heidi’s “ideal day” monologue as a satire of the impossible expectations placed on women:

  “And of course, that's not a real day anybody could ever have... because Wendy Shore can, can weave a yarn, I'll tell you.” – Jessie Field

• They stress the hard reality that "nobody can have it all," linking it to real-world figures like Rachel Carson and everyday personal choices.

5. Relationships: The Scoop Conundrum

[25:11], [26:23], [28:11]

• Extended exploration of the Scoop-Heidi dynamic: Matt finds Scoop’s appeal unfathomable, Jessie counters with a reality check about the allure of charismatic men, even when it makes no sense.

• The scene at the women's support group [30:38], where Heidi articulates self-awareness about being hurt by Scoop while being unable to extricate herself, is highlighted as a “gorgeous scene.”

  “The problem is, is that I stand there and let him do it. And I can't tell you why. I really don't know. But I am aware that I shouldn't.” – Matt Koplik on Heidi [29:47]

6. Female Friendships and Loss

[65:47]

• The evolving friendship between Heidi and Susan is used to illustrate how life, ambition, and societal expectations change relationships over time.

• The lunch scene in Act 2, where Susan has become an unrecognizable LA exec, is noted for its comic devastation—blurring the personal and professional in women's lives.

  “It is devastating when you see the friend that Heidi has lost. And the friend is unaware that she is so far gone.” – Matt Koplik [65:53]

7. The Importance and Messiness of Women’s Spaces

[30:38], [34:14]

• The women's support group scene is dissected for both its satirical humor and its emotional truth. Jessie reads a memorable line:

  “Becky, I hope our daughters never feel like us. I hope all our daughters feel so worthwhile…” – Jessie Field reading Heidi [33:00]

• The generational thread—the idea that each step forward might make things a little easier for the next.

8. Character Growth and Real-Life Parallels

[73:09], [77:11]

• Heidi’s speech at her alma mater is discussed as a brilliant encapsulation of being lost—even when outwardly successful.

• The ending: Heidi adopting a child as a single mother—controversial on its release, now read as a powerful assertion of agency, not the "solution" to all woes.

  “Heidi's now happier because she's figuring out what it is that she wants and doing it in her own way.” – Matt Koplik [77:20]

9. Artistry, Comedy, and the Specificity of Life

[37:33], [39:47]

• Wasserstein’s comedic style and the maturity of late-20th-century American stage comedy are explored.
• The hosts praise how The Heidi Chronicles mines humor not from one-liners, but from lived truth and the relatability of its characters’ struggles.

10. Feminism and the Burden of Representation

[77:59], [80:05]

• The pressure for any “minority” protagonist to speak for all is lambasted, with both hosts advocating for more diversity in storytelling that allows specificity, not “universal lessons,” to drive home empathy and understanding.

11. The Real Takeaways: Sadness, Choices, and Generational Hope

[90:19], [91:35], [114:20]

• Personal reflections from both Matt and Jessie on sadness, self-worth, and the difficulty (and necessity) of choosing happiness.

• Feminism, as echoed in the play, isn’t about single answers, but about the freedom to choose—be that career, love, children, or a combination.

  “The important thing to remember always is that it starts with you. Yes, it always starts with you.” – Matt Koplik [89:38]

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Notable Quotes & Moments

• On generational progress:

  “I hope our daughters never feel like us. I hope all our daughters feel so worthwhile. Do you promise we can accomplish that much, Fran? Huh? Do you promise? Do you promise?” – Heidi (quoted by Jessie Field) [33:00]

• On the impossibility of ‘having it all’:

  “Nobody can have it all because there's simply not enough time.” – Jessie Field [22:00]
  "Anyone who says that they do is fucking lying to you." – Matt Koplik [20:20]

• On the burden of representation:

  “Any story that is told about a group that is not straight white men, that character has to represent the entire community.” – Matt Koplik [77:59]

• On choosing happiness:

  “Choose happiness, y’all.” – Matt Koplik [114:17]
  “Just do it. I’m just kidding. It’s really hard, but do it anyway.” – Jessie Field [114:20]

• On friendship as a central relationship:

  “Actually, isn’t that the more meaningful relationship? One could argue it’s not, but sometimes I argue it is.” – Jessie Field, on Heidi and Peter [46:51]

• On the specificity of feminism:

  “That is feminism… You get to pick what feminism is. Feminism could literally be marrying a husband and quitting your job and raising a family at home. That’s feminism. If that’s what the woman chooses.” – Jessie Field [87:25]

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Timestamps for Key Segments

• 00:25 – Introduction and series overview
• 02:49 – Jessie’s entry point into Wasserstein and Heidi
• 07:42 – Wasserstein's plays & career arc; connection to Torch Song Trilogy
• 13:30 – “Can a woman have it all?” and cultural context
• 23:02 – Heidi’s “perfect day” speech analyzed
• 25:11 – The Scoop-Heidi dynamic and problematic allure
• 30:38 – Women's support group scene and its layered meaning
• 34:14 – Generational hope and progress
• 65:47 – Susan’s transformation; female friendship and loss
• 73:09 – Heidi’s unraveling alma mater speech
• 77:11 – Ends with Heidi’s single motherhood; debates about the ending’s feminist meaning
• 90:19 – Reflections on personal sadness and making choices
• 114:20 – Final take: “Choose happiness, y’all” and the show’s contemporary legacy

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Memorable & Funny Moments

• Matt’s rant about the “unrelateable” Scoop (“I do not get the appeal of Scoop.” [25:11])
• Jessie describing straight women's tragic romantic decisions (“Poor lost lambs that they are...” [26:23])
• Playful back-and-forth about the podcast’s mission to “crack feminism” (“You couldn’t crack it until you talked to me, a man, famously.” [93:15])
• Riffing on women’s pants pockets as metaphor for agency (“The moral of the Heidi Chronicles is please give women pockets. Thank you.” [96:18])

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Overall Tone

Irreverent, incisive, and self-aware, the episode delivers thoughtful analysis in a raucous theater nerd vein. Matt and Jessie frequently bounce between biting satire, genuine appreciation, philosophical debate, and personal vulnerability, perfectly echoing Wasserstein’s blend of the comic and the human.

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Final Thoughts

The Heidi Chronicles is presented as a pivotal feminist and theatrical work that’s both emblematic of its time and still deeply relevant. Matt and Jessie highlight its humor, realism, and emotional punch, encouraging both appreciation of how far we've come and reflection on what remains unsolved for women—and everyone—seeking fulfillment today. The episode closes by echoing the play’s ultimate wisdom: there’s no single road to happiness or meaning, but choosing your own path—however imperfect—is the real victory.

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Tagline from episode:

“When life gives you lemons, you gotta go out and steal some apples because who the fuck wants lemons? …and that’s feminism.” – Matt Koplik & Jessie Field [92:55–93:05]

Transcript

[Jesse Field]

Does he love me? I wanna know how can I tell if he loved me so? Is it in his eyes? Oh, no, you'll be deceived Is it in his eyes? Oh, no, he'll make believe if you wanna know she be loving Zoe Seen his kids that's where it is oh, yeah or is it in his face?

[Matt Koplik]

Hello, all theater lovers both out and proud and on the DL. And welcome back to Broadway Breakdown, a podcast, the history and legacy of American theater's most exclusive address, Broadway. This series is called the Big Move, and it is covering shows that had so much success off Broadway that they just had to transfer to the Great White Way. And try some luck over there. My guest today is an alum of the Pod. Friend of the Pod. You know her. You love her. Please welcome back Jesse Field.

[Jesse Field]

Why, it's a sheer delight to be here, Matt. Thanks for having me back.

[Matt Koplik]

Every time you think you're escaping, I pull you back in.

[Jesse Field]

I don't want to escape. Keep. Be nice. And trapped.

[Matt Koplik]

Yes. It's Saw seven, maybe.

[Jesse Field]

Hey. God, they did make a lot of Saw movies, huh?

[Matt Koplik]

They did, and I did not see a single one of them.

[Jesse Field]

And I saw every one of them because I am a lesbian.

[Matt Koplik]

A lesbian? You've seen Fleabag, I assume.

[Jesse Field]

Actually, no. Shockingly, I know I'm a monster. I need to. It's on the list, but, you know, it's abs.

[Matt Koplik]

Well, just, first of all, it's fantastic, so it's worth seeing. But for some reason, there's. There's a line Olivia Colman has in the first episode of the second season, and the joke is that she is saying lesbian, but she gets cut off halfway through the word. Like, it cuts to the next scene. She goes, the interesting thing about father over here is that his mother was originally a lesbian.

[Jesse Field]

And it's great.

[Matt Koplik]

It's great. Also, apologies, anyone, for sound quality on this episode. For some reason, Zoom has decided not to connect with my very professional snowball microphone, so I have to use the crappy, crappy Apple laptop microphone. And so I don't know how I sound. I know how Jesse sounds. Beautiful and intelligent and magnificent and a.

[Jesse Field]

Little congested today, so apologies for that, but, God, it's winter, ain't it?

[Matt Koplik]

It is winter, ain't it, Henty? And besides, you know the show we're talking about today, there's plenty of congestion here, so.

[Jesse Field]

Right. You're so right, Matt.

[Matt Koplik]

Jesse. Jesse. Field of Dreams. What? Please tell me someone's done that to you before.

[Jesse Field]

I'm not sure. Field trip is A lot.

[Matt Koplik]

No, that's stupid. Children are stupid.

[Jesse Field]

I'm gonna get a sweatshirt that says that.

[Matt Koplik]

As well you should, Jesse. Field of Dreams. What piece of drama are we discussing today?

[Jesse Field]

Today we are discussing the Heidi Chronicles by Wendy Wasserstein. Scene.

[Matt Koplik]

Sure enough. Now, do you have any history with this play?

[Jesse Field]

Yeah, well, not really, but. Except that I really do accept that I don't have no history with it at all. Except at one point in my life, my. My mother handed me a collection of Wendy Wasserstein's which just contained Uncommon Women and also the Heidi Chronicles. And she said, you probably should read this, Jesse, as a living woman in theater. And I said, thanks. And one day, much later, I did. Yes. I think that the handing down from the mother feels very relevant in terms of what we'll be discussing here today.

[Matt Koplik]

Was it.

[Jesse Field]

This was exactly that. Yes. Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

This is. I am. I am holding the compilation of the Heidi Chronicles, Uncommon Women and Others. And isn't it Romantic?

[Jesse Field]

Yes.

[Matt Koplik]

When I was in college, we actually read Isn't it Romantic for Languages of the Stage. And I don't know why we read that and not the Heidi Chronicles, but that is interesting.

[Jesse Field]

That's actually the only one in the collection I never got around to reading. And now I don't know where the collection is, but I'll bother it again.

[Matt Koplik]

Is so like. It's also. So I'm assuming then you were. You've been familiar with Wendy Wasserstein for a while then, as a. As a female writer.

[Jesse Field]

As a female writer, which I am also, one simply must be familiar with Wendy Wasserstein.

[Matt Koplik]

Well, every single female writer that there is. Which is one of the humorous things of the opening monologue of Heidi Chronicles where it's like being a woman in art, I have to know about every woman in art. And I mean, the irony of that is she does, because no one else will. But she's like. But she's like, I resent the idea that I have to, even though I do.

[Jesse Field]

And I agree with that. And also, of course I do, and I want to.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah. And it's also. She says, like, it's easy because there are. There are many, but there aren't that many documented. So it's like the list isn't very long. I have plenty of other. Of room in my brain for other.

[Jesse Field]

Things, you know, and as always, Wendy Wasserstein knows what's up.

[Matt Koplik]

She do. Having now read it, how does it compare to Uncommon Women and Others for you and any other Wasserstein quirks?

[Jesse Field]

Gosh. Well, I Think she certainly, like, she has a style and she's very herself. The Heidi Chronicles, to me, it just feels so personal. Long before I looked up that it was so personal. I think it just, like, it rings with a truth that feels very Wendy, and it feels very. It's like primal femininity in a way of like. Like, not like. I don't know what everybody thinks femininity means, but to me it's like, it. Like a grappling with something in the world. It's like something in us. And it just speaks very truly to that. I think most of her work rings with the truth of, like. Like reaching out to other women. It has, like, an honesty to it where I'm like, I believe you. And also, this probably has happened to you. And, like, sorry about it. Thank you for telling me. But the Heidi Chronicles has always stuck out to me simply because I'm like, God, is this just the life of Wendy Wasserstein? Like, it's. Which it is. I mean, yeah, but before you know that, you feel that. I think that you can always feel honesty in a piece. And that is what draws me to Wendy Wasserstein the most, is I feel like she is trying to tell us something because something has happened to her and we should know about it. And then, of course, every woman in the world at some part or another goes, oh, God, me too.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah, well, so I think Wendy Wasserstein is probably one of the best, most successful examples of write what you know, right. They. I mean, that's what they always tell you when you write at least well, first, especially when you start out. Because sometimes the issues is just like, you know, God, what. What ideas do I have? What, like, what concepts for a plot could I have? And for someone like myself, where, you know, dialogue tends to come easy, it's the story structure that's a little more difficult. It's harder sometimes to see the forest for the trees with that. And so I always just kind of write with what I know first and then. And then start tweaking things for, you know, other, you know, whatever. But you read Uncommon Women and Others, which is not her first play, but it is. It is her, the first play that really kind of made her known in New York theater. Which is interesting because it wasn't like this big phenomenon. It had a small off Broadway production at Marymount Manhattan with Glenn Close, by the way.

[Jesse Field]

Really?

[Matt Koplik]

Oh, yeah. And, like, it didn't run for years and years. It ran for, like, I think, two months in a, you know, limited run or whatever. But it caused enough of a stir, at least in the play theatrical scene, that it got done across the country and other, you know, regional nonprofit theaters. And they were able to make a TV movie out of it with Meryl Streep before she was like, you know, Meryl Streep. And sort of with each successive play that Wendy did in New York, her profile got larger. And so Heidi Chronicles, I mean, I'm not familiar with Sisters Rosenzweig, which is supposedly. Some people claim it's a better play than Heidi, but when you sort of look at Wasserstein's career and then see how when Heidi came out, it just sort of felt like a culmination of, okay, this playwright we've been watching for the last 10 years on the rise. She's good. And each play just gets better and more successful. So now here we finally have something that has crossover appeal. Isn't it romantic? Played off Broadway for almost two years. It actually ran longer than Heidi Chronicles, but in, you know, the Lucille, Lucille Lortel, which is about a fifth the size of the Broadway theater Heidi Chronicles was at. So more people saw Heidi Chronicles. But, yeah, it sort of was a upward trajectory for her where she kind of the, the. The thinking in the 90s was that she eventually plateaued with Heidi and Sisters Rosenzweig, which is not to say that she did poorly, but it's like, oh, she reached the top and then pretty much stayed at the top and then wavered and like, hovered around there for the remainder of her career. But it's. Yeah. And also, she died very young, so I don't know. Her career is an interesting one to me. Also similar to Harvey Fierstein with Torch Song trilogy. And I realize now that the play that I started writing is actually very much a blend of Heidi Chronicles and Torch Song Trilogy. Hallelu. She. What make her and Harvey Fierstein such successful writers and writers that can connect to people is that while there is so much truth in it because it is so much of their lives, it is not. It does not feel like a therapy play. It's very funny, it's very insightful, and it doesn't punish the audience by being like, I feel like I'm afraid now to ask you if you've seen certain TV shows at the risk that you haven't watched them now, like Friends or Happy Endings.

[Jesse Field]

I certainly have seen Friends.

[Matt Koplik]

Okay. There's that, like, one woman play that Chandler sees that he thinks everyone else is going to go see with him. Alex Borstein's the, like, actress of it and it's called why don't you like me? And she just. She shouts, why don't you like me? And there's. And happy endings. There's another one where, like, they're going to deaf poetry for women, and it's a woman, like, shaving her armpit, and she's like, you made me go to prom. Are you happy now, Mom?

[Jesse Field]

I love plays within TV shows. Very funny to me, always.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah, I love how TV writers are so condescending to theatrical writers, and they're.

[Jesse Field]

Not, like, fully wrong. I've seen a lot of plays that are like that.

[Matt Koplik]

Oh, yeah.

[Jesse Field]

Wendy Wasser's scene. But. Yeah. Well, this.

[Matt Koplik]

This is the thing about writing. And it's. And it's why whenever I do write, like, reviews on Instagram, I'm always aware of, first of all, how hard it is to just create something and then to have it get put up. Like, a lot of work goes into it. But also, anyone could technically put pen to paper, right? We all have thoughts. Yeah, I assume.

[Jesse Field]

I. Yeah, I certainly do. Although all I know is that I think therefore I am. I'm taking you on good faith that you think.

[Matt Koplik]

Jesse, do you really think I've had you on here for a third time because I thought you have no thoughts?

[Jesse Field]

Listen, I was a philosophy minor in college. I have doubts.

[Matt Koplik]

But we all. I have such doubts. We've all heard you on the Candide episode. We know you know about philosophy. God damn it, Jesse, stop.

[Jesse Field]

Your resume, what a relief.

[Matt Koplik]

I'm like, let's talk about Broadway. And you're like, here are my credentials. Not going to get discovered on this podcast. Jesse, if I haven't been discovered yet, you won't.

[Jesse Field]

I don't want to be discovered. It sounds like a big nightmare. Then people would look at me. Only you can look at me, Matt. Everyone else can hear my voice. Only I know. You're very lucky.

[Matt Koplik]

My chin in my hands. I'm so pleased.

[Jesse Field]

You can see my matching plaid and beanie.

[Matt Koplik]

You're matching beanie Felstein. So the what? So the point I'm trying to make, though, is, you know, many people have thoughts, right? And anyone could technically put pen to paper and start putting words down. And it takes a certain level of insight and skill to be able to communicate something to a mass audience. It's really. You don't want to preach, and you don't want to placate, and you don't want to punish that, because that's how avoiding those traps is how you actually really create a dramatic Work that can really hit home and live with people, Right?

[Jesse Field]

Absolutely. It takes a lot of, like, big picture viewing, too, especially if you're pulling from your own life where it's so, so easy to get wrapped up in things that feel big and like, so many points of contention. But you're looking at the Heidi Chronicles, which jumps through so much time and the way in which you, like Wendy, pulls out the moments that really matter in the narrative. And they matter not just because they matter to her. Obviously, it's not literally her, but she knows how to build the arc to tell the story. And as you said earlier, it's so easy to get lost for the trees in the forest.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah. And the thing about this play is, like, nothing overtly traumatic happens to Heidi, at least from what we see in the play. You know, she comes from a good background. I mean, the whole play is about boomers and might be. It might be one of the first American plays to really kind of explore the boomer generation, at least, you know, at that point. Because this. This premiered off Broadway at Playwrights Horizons. That's why we're covering it. And in the winter of 1988 and then quickly transferred to Broadway at the beginning of 89, it extended the Playwrights Horizons until mid February. They had nine days off before they started previews at the Plymouth Theater, now the Gerald Schoenfeld Theater, where it ran for a year and a half. And I mean, you think about what it was up against for the Tonys that year. It was up against Lend Me a Tenor, which is, you know, a fun farce that unfortunately has some blackface in it. Then we have Shirley Valentine, which is a one woman show that transferred from the West End about a housewife who gets taken for granted by her family and then decides to leave them when she gets to go on holiday with her friend to Greece. And she's like, oh. Or maybe it's Italy, but she's like, oh, the world is fun when you're not making tuna sandwiches every day for your husband and stupid titty sucking parasite kids. And she leaves them. And then the fourth play was called Largely New York, which was a comedy performance clown piece by Bill Irwin.

[Jesse Field]

What?

[Matt Koplik]

Yep. Well, he. Well, Bill Irwin got his start as like a clown and like sort of performance artist. And he created this piece with a bunch of other performers. They did it at the St. James Theater, where it ran for about four months. And those were the four plays. And of those four plays, only Heidi Chronicles was actually talking about the people who were now the adults who they had been the rebellious generation. They fought for civil rights and they fought for women's lib. And then we get to the 80s and they either are all making money and doing coke or, or they're not making money and they're, you know, and they're miserable or not. Not that money makes you happy, but like, there's so much misery in this generation because they were the first generation to really ask out loud, can I do with my life what I want to do? Can, like, I make a living doing what I'm passionate about and like, making a difference? And their. Their parents generation were like, no, you make money to buy food and you. And you marry someone because you need to make the babies for sure.

[Jesse Field]

God. And it was a very in between time. I mean, that recurring question in Heidi is a very old question, I feel like, for women, which is the question of can a woman have it all? Which is now an old question. But of course, when it came out, the play is set. It starts and ends in 1989, which. And it goes back to 65. So it's just funny to think about we're all on like this large generational journey and it sort of ends with that thought as well, which I'm sure we'll get to. But it's just like, it's such an. It's such a time period and it's such a way that people felt and women's lib was so new and like we're going through the AIDS crisis and it's like all in this play and, and it's such a time capsule now, whereas back then, I'm sure it was. It was the moment that's. Yeah. Everybody was feeling.

[Matt Koplik]

I mean, the thing about the play is, like, it's not. It doesn't feel so revolutionary now. It just feels so human now and like, very. And it's. It still resonates. And you're like, oh, yeah, this is. This is still very relevant. It's just no longer, like, mind blowingly like, oh, my God, somebody said it.

[Jesse Field]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's just now like very. It's very true. And it feels like stepping back into that time, which I don't think about all the time. I live in the now, baby. But you know, I love history. And it's. It's so potent.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah.

[Jesse Field]

And I love looking back at the journey it took for all of us to get here. I mean, not that we have arrived fully anywhere. May I note, still no equal pay across genders, but what can one do about that? One wonders every day.

[Matt Koplik]

Well, after you get discovered on this podcast, we really will make changes.

[Jesse Field]

Well, thank God. Then I'll finally do Equal Pay for Women, which I, playwright is. The only reason I got into the theater was to get equal pay. It's a good strategy that will definitely work is how I feel about it.

[Matt Koplik]

It's noble and it's smart and it's efficient. It's a very good fast track.

[Jesse Field]

Thank you, Matt, for noticing.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah, I mean, so I, I knew of this play for a long time. I read it eventually in college after we read Isn't It Romantic? Which is if Uncommon Women and Others, which I don't think is like, I don't find that play terribly funny. But also I've never seen it done live on stage with an audience. Like, I've just read it and seen clips of the TV movie. There's a little bit of gross out humor to it. Like, the thing that sticks in my brain forever is Susie. There's like in a flashback in college in the early 60s, and Susie Kurtz comes out and she goes, I tasted my period blood. And I'm like, I'm like, that's an opening line, Opening line.

[Jesse Field]

You know, you just don't forget it.

[Matt Koplik]

No, you do. That's not something you forget. But after Isn't it Romantic Is far more of a comedy. It's, you know, a single woman. Similar to Heidi Chronicles. Single woman, can she have it all? But it's a little more focused on romance and maturity because she's like, you know, she, she's always like, like Ms. Wasserstein herself, cracking the jokes, deflecting, doing the things. And her parents like, well, when are you gonna settle down and find a nice mensch? And she. Yeah, and the play doesn't, from what I remember, the play doesn't end with her, like, having it all, but rather it kind of ends with her letting go of the expectations of it all. And so then she can kind of just start living life. And if she finds any of those things, great. But it's not about adhering to what's expected. And Heidi Chronicles, I feel like, is a little less, it's, it's less effervescent, it's less bubbly. It's still funny. You either shave your legs or you.

[Jesse Field]

Don'T shave your legs or you don't.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah. Which I, I, it's times like that where I'm like, I wish I had an old Brooklyn that, you know, grandmother. I mean, both my grandmothers are from here. One lives in Brooklyn, one Lived in Queens, but they aren't like that. Yeah, they shave your legs or you don't. They drink white wine and scotch.

[Jesse Field]

That's.

[Matt Koplik]

That's who they are. But. Yeah, but the ending of the play is much more sort of, I think, like a realistic and mature understanding of balance. It's because, I mean, no one really ever has it all. Anyone who says that they do is fucking lying to you. It's about letting go of the things that you'll never get and appreciating what it is you have and always trying to do better. Not for the sake of fulfillment, but just because that's what gets you out of bed in the morning. You know, like, Heidi has all these accomplishments. By the end of the play, she's. She's a. She becomes a doctorate of. Of her field. She wrote a book about women in art that somehow was very successful and, like, kind of was a cultural moment, apparently.

[Jesse Field]

Am I.

[Matt Koplik]

But am I making that up? I feel like they talk about, like, her book, like, made an impact.

[Jesse Field]

Yeah, yeah. No, they do. They're on the news show. Not that she gets to speak on it. And they bring it up somewhere else as well. The women's lunch, I think.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah. Well, my guests know what that's like, to go on the air and never get to speak.

[Jesse Field]

Not at all. I never shut up. I feel.

[Matt Koplik]

And yet somehow, Jesse, I love talking over you and everyone.

[Jesse Field]

Listen, you gotta be yourself, Matt. Don't crush your spirit.

[Matt Koplik]

Yourself. Be yourself now. There's a difference. You can again. It's all about balance. You accept who you are and the flaws that you have, but that doesn't mean, you say, you know, accept my flaws. I'm never going to change. You work on them still.

[Jesse Field]

You work on them and you learn. Well, I think also, gosh, you learn that in life, nobody can have it all because there's simply not enough time. There's no time. And every day you have to pick things, and every time you pick something, you run out of time for something else. This is like the Rachel Carson phenomenon that I alone speak about, which is that when Rachel Carson, marine biologist, was in college, she was paralyzed at a library because she said, if I read this book, that means that that's like. That's one book I won't have time to read before I die. Every chance I make eliminates something else, and nobody can have it all. And I love in the Heidi Chronicles that insane speech she gives at her, I think, Alma material where she tells the story of her perfect day, where she leaves Teaching and goes to an exercise class and cooks a mesquite chicken dinner for her husband and her children and then takes the leftovers to a homeless shelter and has sex in the kitchen and writes 10 pages of her novel. And of course, that's not a real day anybody could ever have. And there were like 45 more things in it too, because Wendy Shore can, can weave a yarn, I'll tell you.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah, she. I remember she included things like learn some more Italian.

[Jesse Field]

Learn.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah. Drops the children off, picks the children back up. Tells her very handsome younger, like tennis instructor that they can't be lovers.

[Jesse Field]

Like, it's only be friends.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah, we can only be friends. Things like that. Yeah, it's. There's. And also, like, there's so much in life that you cannot control. There are the elements, there are other people. So when it comes to relationship, marriage, kids, like, it's so hard. I've talked about this already before and I. And I will talk about again. Like, it is so hard to find someone you like who likes you back and you're both in a place where you can be together. That's. It's like auditioning. It's a numbers game.

[Jesse Field]

Absolutely. And some of it is random and back in the day, and even I would say now you feel like if you don't find that you're failing something.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah.

[Jesse Field]

But especially I would say at the time for women who have this clock ticking to have children by a certain age. And children are also a modicum of success. And there's like a real liberation from that in the Heidi Chronicles with the ending, which of course ends with her adopting a child on her own.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah.

[Jesse Field]

I think is so empowering because you look back like even at the scene where she's at the women's support group, which is like my favorite scene of the whole play with Fran the lesbian, who's like my favorite 2 minute character in the whole play, obviously, of course. And she's talking about this guy and how she get like she, like he is in control of how she feels about herself. And I think we've, many of us have been there in terms of like letting a relationship define our self worth whether we want to or not. It just sometimes happens. Like, and I don't blame people for feeling that way because it's very easy to love yourself when someone is standing there loving you. But when it's you on your own, you know, you have to maybe work a little harder or think about it a little different. And when all your friends, maybe you're all married and having children. Are you measuring yourself up to their success? Do you think that's real happiness? Is that real love? But you've got to find it and define it for yourself. And there's no real measure for success, happiness, or love.

[Matt Koplik]

So the guy that she's referring to is Scoop. What? What. What a name.

[Jesse Field]

What a name. What a newsman.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah, this I love. It's a little on the nose that he's. When he. When we meet him, he's a journalist, and his name is Scoop.

[Jesse Field]

Like, pretty funny. Pretty.

[Matt Koplik]

I got a little Scoop. But, yeah, I will say. And I was reading some of the reviews of the show at the time, and. And the New York Times, when it was at Playwrights, pointed on something that I agreed with was like, if there's one real major flaw in the play, like, we can pick anything apart. And I. And I think this is a really lovely play. My one flaw is I do not get the appeal of Scoop. And I think when we first meet him, he is such a douche. Like, and not in a way where it's like, oh, like, are you. Are you messy or are you a bastard? And, like, I. Like, he just comes out. I'm like, oh, you're an asshole. And I don't maybe, like, it's something that I have to see, like, Peter Friedman do in the original, because I saw the revival, and I just thought that Jason Biggs was so uncharismatic in the role that it was like, you need to at least buy what would draw Heidi to him to begin with.

[Jesse Field]

I don't know. This is a hot take from Jesse Field, because I certainly agree he sucks, and I would never. But then I'm a full lesbian, so he can't trust me. But I think. I think it's deeply true that a guy like that, like, we're. We just fall for the worst people. And from the outside, it's so easy to look at. I cannot tell you how many of my poor beloved straight friends that I have, poor lost lambs that they are, fall in love with these people, these extraordinary women, with these ordinary men. No offense. Not to stereotype it like that, but I do see it all the time. And I think, why. This makes no sense, but they're just obsessed with them.

[Matt Koplik]

I mean, there's that thing like, the game, right? The game with the negging and all that.

[Jesse Field]

Yeah, sure, yeah. But it's like the confidence. I think there's that line. Although I was just last night watching the. The movie version with Jamie Lee Curtis of The Heidi Chronicles. And so I know that that has now messed up, like, what I remember to be a playline and a movie line. Although they're largely the same, but not fully.

[Matt Koplik]

I can't imagine they're that different. It's a TV movie. They have the ability to stay pretty faithful to the play, and they mostly did.

[Jesse Field]

But there were a couple of lines where I was like, that wasn't in the plan. I kind of dug it sometimes where I was like, shut up. Go back to the play. This part where she's talking to Scoop, actually, this is for sure. In the play, she's talking to Scoop and she says I have to find out. Like, when mothers tell their sons that they don't tell their daughters, that make them so fucking confident.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah.

[Jesse Field]

Where does that come from? And confidence is irresistible. I believe it. I don't like it for Heidi. It's a huge bummer for me to watch her sort of go through that. But I'll tell you, I believe that she's there thinking about Scoop and not Peter, even before she knows Peter is gay.

[Matt Koplik]

Oh, yeah. And she knows it. She acknowledges it. The thing about Heidi. And it's something that I very hard relate to. Like, I also want to make very clear her situation with Scoop, at least for Act 1, because they do get to a place in Act 2 that's healthier for her, but because he's also just a mess. But the Act 1 relationship I absolutely get, because honestly, I've lived it. I'm. I'm coming up in there.

[Jesse Field]

Matt, we can all admit it.

[Matt Koplik]

We've all been there. We've all had our Scoops. But I. That people say, like, oh, people tell you who they are when you first meet them. And it's like, that is true. But also, you don't even. Sometimes you don't know that that's what they're telling you when you meet them. Right. Sometimes they show you the best side of themselves. And the very fact that they are hiding the other side tells you all you need to know about them. But you don't know that that's what they're doing in the moment. And it's only over time, once you've got hooks in them and they've got hooks in you, that you start to see the other stuff.

[Jesse Field]

And.

[Matt Koplik]

And similar to what we were saying earlier, like, sometimes it's hard to tell when a person's flaws are things that are red flags or when they're things that you can work through and the high you get from being loved or Being attended to by someone you love and attend to. It's like, oh, I think you're so awesome. The very fact that you think I'm awesome makes me feel even better. And, like, any confidence you already had, anything you thought about yourself just gets, like, heightened. It's this big euphoric.

[Jesse Field]

Very much so, yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

And so when Heidi's in that women's support group in the, you know, deep trenches of women's lib, around, like, 1970, 71, she says. She's talking about Scoop, right? And she's saying, you know, okay, yes, he. I see him every couple of weeks. I usually go see him. He dates other women, but I'm like. And I. And I am being treated like crap. And they're all like, he sucks. He sucks. She's like, yes. No. She's like, he does. She's like, I'm aware he sucks. She's like, the problem is not him, because he. He do suck. The problem is, is that I stand there and let him do it. He's like. And I can't tell you why. I really don't know. But I am aware that I shouldn't. She's like. And. And in a weird way, it's sort of like saying it out loud is the. Her first steps of being able to get past it.

[Jesse Field]

Yes. It's a gorgeous scene. That's my favorite scene of the whole play is that meeting. And I don't really know why. I just love to reread it and read that group of women. It's the way they talk to each other, and they're all like, I love you, Susan. No, I love you, friend. No, this is the greatest woman in the world, Fran.

[Matt Koplik]

Well, for me, what I like about that scene, because it is a good scene, it's very funny. But it's also got a lot of emotion to it because Becky, that's the young one, right? Who, fun fact at playwrights, was played by Sarah Jessica Parker. And then when it moved to Broadway. Yeah. And then when it moved to Broadway, was played by Cynthia Nixon.

[Jesse Field]

So funny.

[Matt Koplik]

And then Sarah Jessica Parker took it over again later on in the run. So I just love that two of the Sex of the City foursomes played that role.

[Jesse Field]

Pretty cool.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah. Well, series of roles. Becky, Denise, and somebody else. But because there's some overlapping doubling of roles in the show, but they all come from different walks of life, and they're all very different personalities from each other. Right. And I think Wasserstein is able to highlight some of the humorous ridiculousness of this meeting while also tapping into the humane realities of their circumstances. So, like, the very fact that they're like, whenever, anytime somebody arrives, like, I'm so happy you're here. I'm so happy you're here. Like, they have a ritual that they have to do. It's like the. I see you. I see you. I see you.

[Jesse Field]

It's italicized just so. Susan, it is so good to see you.

[Matt Koplik]

Hello, Susan, it is so good to see you. Yes, you either shave your legs or you don't. And it's like. And someone speaks their truth, and they go, thank you, Susan. I love you. Thank you, friend. I love you. And it's. It's all meant in the name of sisterhood and support and having a community. And that's all well and good, but the humor of it is the audience can recognize that this is, like, something that. Not that they. Even if they mean it, it is a little performative because it's now become a ritual. Like, it's. It's just habit now. They do it because that's what you do once you're in the group. That's what you have to say, and that's the humor. But then you hear things like, Becky's whole situation being still in high school, and, like, both of her parents are gone, and she now lives with her boyfriend because who else is she going to live with? And she has to, like, go in the bathroom just to think and cry.

[Jesse Field]

Yep. Yeah, that's real. And it's the whole thing. You're right. It's playing with this push and pull, because it's, I would say, one of the funniest scenes in the play and also one of the ones that contains, like, the truth that really arrested me. My favorite part of it, which I just pulled up over here so I could read you this exact line from Heidi, which she says. She says, becky, I hope our daughters never feel like us. I hope all our daughters feel so worthwhile. Do you promise we can accomplish that much, Fran? Huh? Do you promise? Do you promise? I love that she takes that question to Fran. I love that she is, like, begging Fran, the wise lesbian, to confirm for her that although we may suffer today, like, our daughters in the future are going to go further and be more liberated. And this is, like, the beginning of that generational thread for me, too. And it's a thought that I. I think about this all the time. Like, how far we can get generationally and, like, the. The things that I'll never be able to let go of in My own psyche and then thinking about the art I want to make and how I can tell people they're okay so the next generation can feel a little less terrible. And over time, we're all gonna move towards feeling less terrible, one might hope, if we make the right art. And I just love the way that Heidi, who, like, was not really super into this meeting when she arrived, is now, like, begging Fran to promise her that there are daughters will feel more worthwhile than they do. And then, of course, they also love you, Heidi.

[Matt Koplik]

I think. I think that's something to remember with this meeting, because it's early, the way that it's structured. You know, this is. We have, you know, Heidi's first. The play has two major monologues that open both acts where she's giving a lecture on women in the arts. And, you know, of course, it relates to the rest of the themes of the play, but. Yeah, but then, as you said, like, we go back from the early 60s through the 80s, and. And we have her first meeting at a dance where she meets Peter, who becomes her, like, soulmate, even though we eventually find out he's gay, which actually makes him even more perfect for her, because the lack of complication of a romance means they can just be there for each other. And, like, with no strings, with no. No skin in the game, other than the fact that they just both want to be there for each other. And then the next scene is two years later where she meets Scoop, and then two years later where we have the women's meeting. But it's interesting you say that that line is, like, her pleading to Fran, and I think it's true. I think you can also almost read it as not like, an interrogation, but, like, almost kind of argumentative as well to Fran, because of everyone in that group, Fran is the most, like, yeah, strong in her beliefs of, like, what women can be, what they should be, men suck, blah, blah, blah. And it can be a little. And her whole mantra, you either shave your legs or you don't. It's very black and white for her. Like, you either are a feminist or you're not. You either stand up for yourself or you don't. And Heidi doesn't necessarily think of herself as a feminist in this moment. The key phrase she has when she arrives with her childhood friend Susan is, I'm just visiting. But I feel like when she turns to Fran on that of, like, can you promise that? It's both, like, a plea and also, like, can you promise that, Fran, sure, you're gonna hold us accountable. Can I hold you accountable? Because you know, the truth is that you're not gonna. None of us can make a perfect human, raise a perfect human, make sure that they are not, not just like empathetic to a beautiful degree, but able to take care of themselves and strong willed and never get hurt or abused and can love and support and create. And it's sort of really shitty to expect everyone to follow a gold standard when none of us ever can. We can keep trying and learn from our fuck ups and hopefully fuck up less in the future. But yeah, I think there's a, it's a, it's a combination of a plea and a confrontation to frame with that. Can you promise that?

[Jesse Field]

Yeah, I totally agree. And that's what's fun about the play too, is there's so much to it and there are so many ways you can read this. I had so much fun watching clips of the play and also TV movie because I want to hear how people say these lines. I mean, I guess that's really the joy of theatre, why we're all. It's so alive, so much here to sort of interpret.

[Matt Koplik]

Do you say interpret?

[Jesse Field]

I sure did. Was a folksy thing. Like a, like a charming. I'm being charming.

[Matt Koplik]

Yes, you are. Okay. Catherine o'. Hara. You must interpret the text. David. But yeah, I mean, in eighth grade English, our teacher, whenever we would study plays, we were not allowed to read them at home. We, we had to read them in class with each other because she said plays are meant to be heard, not read.

[Jesse Field]

So correct.

[Matt Koplik]

God, so correct. And Heidi Chronicles. It's often hard sometimes to get humor from a play because a lot of it is in the cadence, it's in the rhythm, it's in the timing. And you know when you're writing dialogue in a play that you want to really come across just how funny something is. Sometimes you will do like an italicized something or you will say a beat or whatever, but. But other times it's like you kind of just have to let actors and directors figure it out in rehearsal and find where the jokes are. And then even, and even then you go into previews and you have to wait to see where the audience finds the humor.

[Jesse Field]

It's so tricky and it's so tenuous and it's so alive. Like I've watched so many plays where just different jokes will hear hit different nights and God only knows why, what's in the air, why this, why that. And you're so right that it changes the whole process because actors will find jokes that you never even could see in your text that are fully written there. And then suddenly that's a joke. And your very funny joke feels very serious now and meaningful. But I'll tell you, that's plays for you. And that's why it's great a play like this, which has both. Anyway.

[Matt Koplik]

Well, also, it's. There's a. There's a maturity to the comedy, to the stage comedy that happens really. Starting with Neil Simon. Not like. Not with the beginning of Neil Simon's career, but rather like Neil Simon found the key that would allow the theatrical comedy to become much more human. I don't think he personally perfected it, but he definitely like. So we have Barefoot in the park and Odd Couple, which are these plays about people. And a lot of the comedy comes from just their personalities and the things that they do. But he also was a joke machine and he was very famous for knowing that a line would get a laugh. And if it was being rehearsed improperly, he'd be like, no, no, no, no, no, no, no. You gotta. You gotta say like this, otherwise it will not get a laugh. And then starting with Plaza Suite, which I don't know how familiar you are with Plaza Suite.

[Jesse Field]

Totally just.

[Matt Koplik]

Only just. I did see the SJP Matthew Broderick revival, which was fine, but I. I enjoyed myself way more than I thought I would.

[Jesse Field]

Right.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah. The first act isn't terribly funny. The next two are much more classic. Neil Simon. The first act is. Is more of a dramedy of a married couple, like 20 years into marriage or whatever, and on their sort of semi second honeymoon at the Plaza. And it's sad because the spark is kind of gone. But no, the wife is kind. Is trying to relive the magic of their. Of their wedding night. And he's distant and definitely having an affair. And there are jokes, you know, they both make wisecracks, but there is a sadness to it. And the jokes do not come from like, bada bing, bada boom. It's. It's out of the situation. There is a human reason why they are both trying to crack wise, because they are trying to break the tension and ease up with each other. That is sort of the beginning of that kind of style of comedy. Because other than that, we have who's Afraid of Virginia Woolf? Where the comedy is just vicious.

[Jesse Field]

Oh, my God. Yeah. I have to be in the right mood to enjoy who's Afraid of Virginia?

[Matt Koplik]

Well, because, like you. Are you familiar with the play the Women?

[Jesse Field]

Yes.

[Matt Koplik]

You gave Me, the. You gave me the kind of look that has. Like, I asked you, have you ever saved a baby from a burning building? Like, why would I not save a baby from.

[Jesse Field]

It was quite the contrary, in fact. It was like, oh, I sort of forgot that existed. And now I'm like, do I know it? Is it the thing that I'm thinking of?

[Matt Koplik]

But now the women means a lot more to gay men than it means to actual women. But the. That play is so very funny because it's all just one liners. It's jabs. And who's afraid is that times 10? Like. Like. Whereas the women, it's always like a little bit of a stigmat. It's like, oops, I pricked you accidentally with my. With my pen. Who's afraid of Virginia Woolf? Takes a dagger, slices your arm open and goes, whoops. Yeah. While making eye contact and pouring scotch in the wounds. But after Plaza Suite, we start getting these comedies in the 70s that are veering away from, like, the Boeing Boeing, like, hey Baby. Like, everything's sexy and swinging. And their comedies are much more about people. And then in the 80s, we get Biloxi Blues and Broadway Bound and now Heidi Chronicles, where it's still very funny, but the humor comes less from, like, oh, my God, can you believe the wit of that one liner? And more like the I rec. It's funny because it's true. I recognize that.

[Jesse Field]

Yes. So true. And it's so. It's like sometimes it's just charming. I just was lucky enough to see the. To see Merrily We Roll along at New York Theater.

[Matt Koplik]

I saw that. You saw that?

[Jesse Field]

Okay. Very lucky duck with a great. My own gay best friend. My own Peter Petrone, who bought me a ticket for my birthday. But one of the most charming things about it, I felt is, like, was the playfulness between friends. And you get so much of that true, genuine playful in this piece. Like, speaking of Peter Petrone, one of my favorite scenes, of course, is when he comes out to her and they do this bit where she. She's just hitting him. Like, he takes her hands and he hits himself with her hands.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah.

[Jesse Field]

Yes. That's for me being selfish and not saying. And for all these things. And she hits him later and she says, I'm hitting you for not being hopelessly in love with me for all this time. And it's not like it's funny, but it's so, like, it's charming. Because, of course, like, this scene, they're. They're learning about each other, and she is A little bit heartbroken because she always thought maybe he was like her safety guy or like her backup marriage. But also she's like, and I want to meet Stanley. And you know, and it's like the beginning of something very true and beautiful and it's, it's so charming. I feel like, to watch friends do friend things and sometimes you get that with her relationship with Susan, which of course then like sort of ends up the opposite way where she has that really unfortunate scene with Susan at the end where she's trying to like pitch her a movie pilot or like a TV show to work on as opposed to Peter, who ultimately she, she stays for like she. That's one of my favorite scenes. Also my second favorite scene after that.

[Matt Koplik]

Might be one of the most. I forgot about that scene. And reading it last night before this episode, I was like, oh, how come we don't have more of these scenes?

[Jesse Field]

More of these, please.

[Matt Koplik]

We have so many work. So. Okay. Oh God, I need to not talk about this too in depth because this is such a major theme and significant other. The friendship between a straight woman and a gay man is really hard because especially when they meet, when they're both single, right? Because eventually their lives go from parallel to perpendicular and society tends to favor the norm, the heteronorm. So like more, more likely is that she will get married, she will have babies, and it's, it just gets harder and harder to maintain the friendship. And you watch them try to be for each there for each other, but it's just, it just gets more difficult. And ultimately in. Now that we're all sort of in the mind frame of like, I have to protect me, I have to do what's good for me. It's like you, any bending you do for another is considered weak. But if you care about someone and they really need something from you, wouldn't you try to bend a little bit to help them? And usually that's, that's talked about as like, well, the person you're married to, right? Or you're committed to. And it's like, well, what about the person who has been there for you the majority of your life? Can't you give them a little bit? And I think what makes it work in Heidi Chronicles is he's the one who's now in a relationship and she is not. So she, she can, but she does ultimately change. She reverses a life altering decision because he asks her to, because he really needs her too.

[Jesse Field]

And it's like the value you put on that because I completely Agree with everything you've said, and I even think it's something that you see beyond that. Like, I mentioned my gay best friend, and I am a lesbian, so I'm not a straight woman destined for marriage and children, thank God, because I don't want those things, but. Very scary. But, you know, there's this feeling, I feel like, with a close friendship and somebody who means so much to you still, that you're trying to build a life outside of that. And, yeah, friends are great and they can help you, but you're not, like, building your life around them. And sometimes I think it's worth stopping to think. Well, but why? Like, sometimes that's your person and you can. You can make a decision because they bring joy to your every day. It's not worth less because you're not like. It's just. Can I say that on your podcast? I forgot. I've said it, like, nine times already. Okay, yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

But, you know, this is not your third time on the podcast.

[Jesse Field]

I have, like, such a bad memory for it. For everything. You'll learn about all my flaws, Matt, as we become close over time. And one day you'll ask me to stay for you, and I'll say, yeah, okay, sure.

[Matt Koplik]

And I will. And I will say in response, piss. And here we are.

[Jesse Field]

We will cry and hug and listen to little records and sing songs that we sang 40 years ago. Like the Shoop Shoop song.

[Matt Koplik]

I'm so glad.

[Jesse Field]

All relevant to the Heidi Chronicles. It is.

[Matt Koplik]

It's all in the play. It's all in the play.

[Jesse Field]

I just love the emphasis that they put on that friendship, which is, you know, like, the first scene is not Scoop. It's Peter. And. And the first I read the play, I was like, okay. So I guess that first scene was just like, psych. It's not him. It's him. Yeah, but it's like, actually, isn't that the more meaningful relationship? One could argue it's not, but sometimes I argue it is.

[Matt Koplik]

I think it is the most meaningful in that one. It's a shame that Peter doesn't get the last scene with Heidi, but in a way, it's. I mean, I don't know. Like, the final scene was scoop, where he talks about, like, his midlife crisis and, oh, this change of heart. So he sold his very successful magazine because, you know, yes, he made money, yes, he had some cultural influence, but ultimately it doesn't mean anything. And then it turns out it's all bullshit anyway. He's going to run for what is, like, congress or something like that. Yeah. And so even though, you know, he and Heidi now have a friendship, that Heidi's friendship with Scoop in the end because it starts off as a toxic semi romance.

[Jesse Field]

Yeah. Building up one which we haven't even talked about yet. The wedding scene is.

[Matt Koplik]

Oh, yeah, well. Oh, that. That's. Well, that wedding scene, I would argue, is sort of like perhaps the thesis of the play because. Because nothing is really left answered in that scene. So that's really where the thesis is. I would argue that Anything else. But yeah, they go. They go from toxic romance to sort of a toxic friendship and. And then his life, even though he finds success and. And checks off all the boxes, he gets progressively. They both get progressively less happy. But she is not so full of shit that she's actually willing to try to get happy. He's too full of shit to ever know what it is to be happy probably ever again. And they have that final scene where he claims to have this big epiphany. It turns out it's all bullshit and it's sort of like not the final nail in the coffin, but it allows her to get less tied to him because even if he's not her partner, even if he's not her husband, even if they don't have sex anymore, he's still a little too toxically involved in her life, in my opinion, for sure.

[Jesse Field]

No, he keeps showing back up. And it says more about him at some point than it does about her.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah.

[Jesse Field]

He's drawn here that there's something about her that makes him feel some sort of way when he's the one who got in that scene. You know, he's like, I can't marry a 10. I can't marry an A plus. Because we'd always be competing like somebody who's going to just support.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah.

[Jesse Field]

And all.

[Matt Koplik]

And there's always just going to be disappointment. So that. So we can.

[Jesse Field]

You know.

[Matt Koplik]

Let me talk about the wedding scene. Now, first of all, something to know about Scoop, the lone straight man in the play. Obviously. You know, we have talked about this a bit already. When he and Heidi meet at this event for canvassing for this political candidate, they begin this toxic romance that goes over about, like, two or three years. And then we flash forward like another four years maybe, or maybe not even that long.

[Jesse Field]

Get the little. They list it all so nicely at the top of the play.

[Matt Koplik]

They do. Because after the women's meeting, then it's the museum where Peter comes out or not comes out, but he's already out. But sort of tells Heidi, like, hey, update. I'm gay. I've been gay, and I've been living a very good life as a gay.

[Jesse Field]

Yes.

[Matt Koplik]

Just thought you should know.

[Jesse Field]

And she goes, what?

[Matt Koplik]

Hers are what? Yeah. So the. The women's meeting is 1970. 1974 is when Peter meets her in Chicago, and he's like, gay. I'm the. I am the. The first gay. And I think she and Scoop are still kind of connected in that way. Right. And then we flash forward to 1977. So three years later, and we are at Scoop's wedding in New York.

[Jesse Field]

We're at his wedding. We are at it.

[Matt Koplik]

He just got married.

[Jesse Field]

I'm like, just to even realize where you are after that jump, you're like, oh, shit. And Heidi came, and you're like, why would this happen?

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah. Why would Heidi go? And listen, three years is a long time. There's a lot of. There's a lot of heartbreak and baggage and healing that probably happened. She claims that she came because Peter wanted to go. Peter wanted to meet Scoop. Which also tells you something about Heidi and Scoop, about the relationship, that Peter has never met him until this point.

[Jesse Field]

Yep, yep. Sure.

[Matt Koplik]

And granted. Yeah. And, you know, this is pre cell phones, pre Skype. So it's all about phone calls and letters. No emails yet or, like, taking a plane because for a while, they're all living in different cities. New York. Peter's in New York. Heidi was in Chicago for a long time. But, yeah, like, there was no meeting. Peter wanted to go to the wedding, which I love. It's sort of like a bit of a. It's. It's definitely a neg towards Scoop where Peter's like, I had to see this for myself.

[Jesse Field]

Yeah, for sure. No. And. And everyone's there. Susan's there because she has some sort of connection. They served in the same internship or something in the.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah, they're all. They're all there for, you know, different.

[Jesse Field]

There at this insane wedding where Scoop, like, the worst man in the world, says something insane when Peter's like, so, are you in love? Because, you know, I see two people of your age getting married. I should hope you're in love. And he says, am I in love? Sure. Why not? He says, like, what a monster. He's fine, but I believe that he's real is the thing of it.

[Matt Koplik]

But I.

[Jesse Field]

That's an insane line to me to say at your own wedding. And it's also insane to spend so much time talking to your ex lover.

[Matt Koplik]

Well, and so Peter. Peter Scoop. One of his characteristics in his speech. Something that he drops in Act 2 as we get further down the road. And they. It gets brought up more sort of jokingly because it's like a shorthand for all of them, is he rates everything 1 to 10, F to A. Oh, so and so, A plus conversation, B minus looks. Or like, he. He doesn't really rate women on letter grades. He rates them by numbers and not by physicality, but just sort of like their potential.

[Jesse Field]

Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

And he calls Heidi a 10 woman. Not because, like, she's a supermodel, but because she is so intelligent, she's so funny. She is gonna do so much. And she said, she's got ambition. She's gonna challenge him. Yeah. And he said he can't handle. He doesn't wanna come home to a 10. He wants to come home to a six. And what I think is so great about the play is he marries a woman named Lisa. And I love that Wendy gives her a little dignity and doesn't make her the worst. She is kind.

[Jesse Field]

She's. We.

[Matt Koplik]

We don't get a lot. We don't see a lot of her intelligence, but we're led to believe she's not a total dum dum.

[Jesse Field]

And she's an illustrator.

[Matt Koplik]

She's an illustrator. She's a successful illustrator.

[Jesse Field]

Illustrator. And the vibe is like. And now we will put that away so she can be married to Scoop.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah. Well, I love there's. Because we. The. There's an about face that Peter has when he meets Lisa because she's from the south and blah, blah, blah. So immediately he's like, oh, this dumb. Dumb. Especially like, oh, she agreed to marry this piece of shit. What kind of idiot are we dealing with? And when it's revealed that she write that she illustrates these children's books, essentially. And then one apparently had to do with, like, a hospital and human anatomy. And Peter's now a doctor. He's blown away because he thinks those books are genius.

[Jesse Field]

Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

Now his only issue with Lisa is why did you marry him?

[Jesse Field]

Yeah. No, it's kind of. You're so right about that. Wendy does a great job of not making us, like, hate Lisa. In fact, we like Lisa. And I feel terrible for Lisa because in some ways, you always want your protagonist to, like, get the guy, I guess. But watching Lisa be married to Scoop, you're just sort of relieved that Heidi's not in that position, even though, of course she wanted it.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah. And she wanted it in many ways, a. Because she and Scoop have this connection that can't be undone, unfortunately, doesn't mean it's healthy.

[Jesse Field]

But there is love.

[Matt Koplik]

There is love. Yeah. Not healthy love, but love. And many of us do want a person beside us. It just. It's. It helps to have that kind of companionship. And there are so many things in life that you want to share with somebody. And I think sort of in the back of her brain might have had a fantasy that Scoop could eventually resolve so many enough of his issues that they. When they fought, it would be healthy fighting, not, like, hit my head against the wall kind of fighting.

[Jesse Field]

Absolutely.

[Matt Koplik]

And, yeah, and we watch. We. We see glimpses into their marriage in Act 2, as you go down the road, and we just see how unhappy they both are. Scoop starts cheating. Lisa clearly knows he's cheating. Like, he's cheating on her during her baby shower. Like, they're about to have.

[Jesse Field]

Everyone knows, like, everyone ran into him with this woman. Like, it's not even being kept a secret because he doesn't need to keep it a secret. He's Rosenbaum.

[Matt Koplik]

Exactly. And so Wendy makes us care about Lisa because Lisa's not a bad person. She's a relatively intelligent person. She's an. She's a kind person. She's not the most interesting, which. Which I think is also good because it gives us a realistic understanding of why someone would marry Scoop. Like, oh, she's smart. She's not that smart. She's nice. She's not that nice. And it's like, yeah, thing too of.

[Jesse Field]

Like, women had to marry. Everyone is, like, looking to marry. And you wonder, I wonder for Heidi, like, if Peter wasn't gay, would she have just married him regardless of, like, if she really loved him or not? At some point, are you, like, I want. I want someone. I want to succeed at this thing we all have to succeed at. You know, there's a scarcity mindset out there. And if Scoop Rosenbaum is turning on the charm and telling you he wants to marry you, being his charismatic, although a creep, as Heidi admits, but a charismatic creep. And Fran iconically says, I fucking hate charisma because it's true. I believe that you could get swept off your feet and make a big mistake. But there's something about. Especially for the poor straights out there. I'll tell you, Matt, I feel terrible for them every day. They just are drawn into this trap of marriage because it feels like the ultimate modicum of success. And it feels like once you achieve that, then happiness lies beyond. Although often it's the opposite. Women become very depressed after their Weddings a lot of the time. Because that's like the thing they looked forward to since they were children. And now what do they look forward to? The sweet embrace of death? I don't know.

[Matt Koplik]

People also will look at marriage as a pay a payment of the investment they put into this relationship. It's like the. All the time I put into you has officially led to the profit of a marriage. Like it was worth it in the end, was it not? We. We got. We got the married and married, and.

[Jesse Field]

Now you're trapped in the married. And I hope it was worth it.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah, well, because so many people don't view marriage as just the what? Rather than asking themselves like, does this feel right? Does the idea of being married to you really give me happiness? Or is it just that that's what I am supposed to do and I have justify all the time I've spent on you? I think what's also interesting though, we talk about, like, would she have married Peter? And the Scoop charm? It's good that we see other female characters where Scoops charm does not work. Susan hates him.

[Jesse Field]

Oh, my God.

[Matt Koplik]

His charm does not work on her. There's another woman at the wedding who, I forget her name, but she's there. And like, Scoop does not work on her either. So it's not like he's irresistible to everyone. Just, you know, rather we see two women who it's worked on and how that. And how that goes for them. But also, it's not as if Heidi is celibate outside of Scoop. We keep hearing about these relationships she's in and.

[Jesse Field]

Mostly with editors.

[Matt Koplik]

Mostly with editors.

[Jesse Field]

Dating all the time.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah, she's. She's seeing men. She's putting herself out there. We could argue how much of herself she's putting into dating them if they all seem to follow the same criteria. And it keeps not working. It's like, well, are you biding your time till Scoop comes in? Are you biding your time till Peter just wants to commit to you? Or are you just sort of passing through until the next guy or the next job? Or are you really. Is this really one of your blind spots? As an intelligent woman, you can see so much of the world, and this is the one thing about yourself you really can't understand is like, is a. A pattern that you need to break? Because. And she says herself when she's talking about Scoop in the women's meeting, she's like, the way I am acting, the situation I am in, if I saw a girlfriend in it, I would. It would be so clear cut to me, I'm like, run for the fucking hills. She's like, but there's something about when you're in it, and there are things about the heart and the brain that you can't connect sometimes. Like, you stay way longer than you should. Boy, do I know it.

[Jesse Field]

Oh, my God. We all know it's very. And it's so easy to know what our friends should do, and then it's so hard to know what we should do. And they, of course, are in the same position. I know exactly what all my friends should do, and none of them are doing it. And I can't blame them, because I've never once taken their romantic advice.

[Matt Koplik]

Exactly.

[Jesse Field]

And I never will, because you simply have to live through some things and decide for yourself. And being on the inside of something is very different from looking at it clearly from a vantage point.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah, there. There was a time when I would talk to a friend of mine about a person I was around, and I would sort of repeat some of our conversation to them. And the conversations when we had them, I was like, oh, my God. Like, this is really lovely. We're connecting this gorgeous way. And I would repeat it to my friend, and they'd be like, this is a mess. And I'm like. I was like. And my. My response would always be, okay, I'm clearly not capturing to you what this conversation was if you keep on thinking it's a mess and they're like, no, no, no, no. You're not hearing this with, you know, without this person's face attached. You need to hear what the words are. Away from that. And it took a long time, but eventually it's like, oh, yeah, no, that. That wasn't great. That was nice, but that part wasn't great.

[Jesse Field]

Yeah, no, absolutely well put. And I would almost share a personal story myself, but actually I won't because.

[Matt Koplik]

I shared a little bit of my personal life in the Torch Song trilogy episode, which is honestly what I'm referring to right now. Don't you worry, y'.

[Jesse Field]

All.

[Matt Koplik]

You'll learn more details of that when my own play is finished.

[Jesse Field]

Exactly. You'll have to buy a ticket to my personal life. I'm so sorry. But it's very interesting.

[Matt Koplik]

The working title is tells you when you've been handed a stick of dynamite till it blows up in your face.

[Jesse Field]

A little long, Matt. But very good.

[Matt Koplik]

The working title and. And brought to you by my therapist from Better Help. This podcast is brought to you by Better. Actually, that reminds me, we should take a quick Break. Really?

[Jesse Field]

I beg to differ with you.

[Matt Koplik]

How do you mean?

[Jesse Field]

You're the top. Yeah, you're an Arrow caller. You're the top. You're a Coolidge dollar.

[Matt Koplik]

We're back.

[Jesse Field]

Wow, what a great break. I feel refreshed. Matt, do you feel refreshed?

[Matt Koplik]

I feel so refreshed. Let's talk more about feminism.

[Jesse Field]

So I would love to. And welcome. Nobody says that to me. Every minute of my life.

[Matt Koplik]

Jesse, can I tell you something about feminism?

[Jesse Field]

Yes, tell. Explain it to me. I'm.

[Matt Koplik]

I'm going to explain it so clearly, because as a man, and I use that in quotation marks, only you can.

[Jesse Field]

Know what it means.

[Matt Koplik]

Listen, listen. I do not subscribe to the theory that the attributes we have put towards masculinity means you are a man.

[Jesse Field]

Absolutely true.

[Matt Koplik]

That said, I am currently pantsless, wearing a Kimberly Kimbo sweatshirt, sitting next to my Paddington Bear doll before I go to the gym and work out to the Rock of Ages soundtrack. How much of a man am I? I'm all man, baby.

[Jesse Field]

That is right.

[Matt Koplik]

So as the most man, let me explain something to your woman brain.

[Jesse Field]

Please try. But it's hard. It's only.

[Matt Koplik]

That's why she said, honestly, I have nowhere to go with this. I kept trying. I just really wanted to set the most misogynistic scene.

[Jesse Field]

I know we had to do the bit. It's very important.

[Matt Koplik]

Well, I was. Honestly, it was a bit of a game of chicken. I was like, how far can I go until Jesse just goes.

[Jesse Field]

I go really far. So let's see.

[Matt Koplik]

I'm vegan. I'm vegan. Oh, God, I wish I was vegan. My life would be so much easier.

[Jesse Field]

Listen, I can't because I'm gluten free. So I can't do both or I won't eat anything. Oh, no. Yeah, because he's not high maintenance. I have a disease anyway. Something about feminism.

[Matt Koplik]

Well, so that's. You actually would like the restaurant that I used to work at, the little beet table. It was a gluten free. Yeah, gluten free restaurant. And then people would come thinking that we were just like specialty dietary restrictions, which we eventually were, but we were like, no, no, no. We have everything else. The reason why we are gluten free is because there are so many celiacs out there who can't go anywhere.

[Jesse Field]

Celiacs represent.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah, Celiac should be able to eat a hamburger and not worry about the bun.

[Jesse Field]

What a sort of, like, bold thing to say to me. What a sweet, empowering thing.

[Matt Koplik]

What then you should not have to worry about a hamburger.

[Jesse Field]

Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

Yes. As a feminist celiac, you should be able to eat a hamburger and not worry about the bun.

[Jesse Field]

This is. That's gorgeous, Matt. That's a better world out there. One day, that's gonna be my.

[Matt Koplik]

The new working title for my play.

[Jesse Field]

That's even better.

[Matt Koplik]

Even longer, too, and more specific about something that my play is not about.

[Jesse Field]

In For a Penny and for a Pound, I say penny for a Pounding. Feminism.

[Matt Koplik]

Feminism. Oh, the Susan character, by the way. Yes, Susan, I think so. Again, like Wasserstein, in this play, she shows us all these different ways in which women succeed. We see women with. Get jobs and get to the. And get to the top of their field. We see women who get to have successful careers and have families, women who just do the family route. Women who are relatively confident and competent, but maybe lose a bit of themselves. Women who are. Have. Are lost their happiness. The scene with Susan at the lunch table with Heidi in Act 2 is funny just in terms of how much it eviscerates the LA person.

[Jesse Field]

Yes.

[Matt Koplik]

But it is devastating when you see the friend that Heidi has lost.

[Jesse Field]

Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

And the friend is unaware that she is so far gone.

[Jesse Field]

Completely unaware, in fact. Probably from Susan's perspective. She thinks she's being so nice to even, like, think of Heidi and sort of bring a piece of her success to her old friend. But Heidi just wants to talk to her.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah. Heidi's like, I wanted to catch up. And Susan's like, yeah, we are catching up. No one eats at lunch. And, yeah, like, it's been a while since they've seen each other. N. So, like, Susan is pitching Heidi a TV sitcom based off of her book, which isn't even based off of her book. It's just, oh, we want to do, like, a thing about three female friends living in the loft. What if one of them is an artist? What if she's like, what if they're all in art in some way? One of them's a painter, one of them's a curator. One of them is, like, a researcher. And Heidi's like, is that interesting?

[Jesse Field]

Heidi's like, what? And she's like, maybe you could be a consultant on it. And she's like, hot. No.

[Matt Koplik]

What? And she's like. She's like, if it's successful, it'll make you a lot of money. And she goes, you can help us figure out what makes these women funny. And she's like, I. I don't know what makes anyone funny.

[Jesse Field]

I just sort of wanted to come here and talk to you about my life.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah. And then Susan brings her associate who we knew back in the day, who's now.

[Jesse Field]

It's like Lisa's sister or something.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah, something like that. Like, these two women who were in Heidi's life as friends, and now they're coming at her as businesswomen. And their success is not something they should apologize for. But like any person in this world, you have to know when to turn it off and just be with the people who've been with you since, you know, the way back.

[Jesse Field]

Yes, absolutely. And there's none of that. Instead, there's this very funny and insane bit about the swordfish with the butter.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah.

[Jesse Field]

Dry swordfish, no butter. And then she's like, I see butter on this. I can't eat butter. I told them no butter. Well, I didn't listen. Don't bring it back. I don't have any more time.

[Matt Koplik]

I'm just gonna eat it. I don't have time. But. But she's not pleased. And. But. And also, like, they. She complains that they haven't gotten their food yet, that they've been waiting forever. And then the waiter comes over, and they order, and I'm like, then you never ordered. Like, the food didn't come because you didn't order it. Yeah.

[Jesse Field]

Susan's become kind of the worst, and it's a real shame because we've known her since, what, like, high school? I don't remember.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah.

[Jesse Field]

And we love Susan. She's so funny, and she changes so much over the course. She brings Heidi to that women's meeting. She's so mean to Scoop, which always feels amazing because Scoop sucks.

[Matt Koplik]

Yep. She's the one who brings up the Scoop situation at the meeting. She's like. She's like, heidi's not going to bring it up, so I will.

[Jesse Field]

Yeah. Which good friend. Because she needed to talk about that. It was clearly therapeutic for Heidi. We end up in a great place. That's a great friend who's paying attention and who says things like, she'll drop anything for Scoop, even hanging out with me. Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

Like, I've known her since childhood. Although, in Heidi's defense, Susan did drop everything at that dance to go dance with Twist and Smoke.

[Jesse Field]

Boy, she sure did. And Twist and Smoke is so funny that he can twist and smoke at the same time.

[Matt Koplik]

So what? What else can you do at the same time?

[Jesse Field]

I bet she found out.

[Matt Koplik]

Both fingers, baby.

[Jesse Field]

Oh, my gosh, I'm blushing over here. My goodness. Yeah, but you're right.

[Matt Koplik]

I find that offensive. To people with rosacea. Okay.

[Jesse Field]

The thing is that Susan is so many. It's just the thing about Wendy Walter scene that I love is I just believe her. Susan is amazing things, and sometimes she sucks. And then her last scene, she's the worst person in the world. And I'd like to think that maybe in 15 more years they'll meet again and something else will change, but maybe not. I mean, the interesting thing is that the play ends when Heidi's, what, like 40, and she has a child. And of course, Wendy Wasserstein famously had a child at the 8. Like, in her 40s. I think she was 48 or 49. 48.

[Matt Koplik]

49.

[Jesse Field]

She dies, like, six years later, she dies, I think five at the age of 55. Or maybe I'm mixing up the fives.

[Matt Koplik]

But no, no, you know, you. You're correct. That's all. This is all correct, Jesse.

[Jesse Field]

Coincidence. But. And it's just crazy to think, because I would like to think about what happens in the sequel to the Heidi Chronicles. The Heidi Chronicles More chronicles Harder, Part.

[Matt Koplik]

2, the Heidi Chronicles of Narnia.

[Jesse Field]

Yes, exactly. Take me back through the wardrobe to see, like, what happens in another 10, 15 years. And Wendy Wasserstein never gets that. Ironically, she doesn't see her daughter grow up. Her daughter now is only 23. I looked it up last night because I was like, what happened to that kid? Was raised by her brother after she died, and then her brother's family after he died. The Wassersteins are not a well, clan. But it's. What was my point here. It's just. It's just fascinating. What she really captures is how people change. And it's. You really feel like you've known them since back then because the scenes are so heady and believable and full of specific crumbs that really draw you in. And we really feel. I felt a real loss with Susan. It was a real bummer. And the only antidote for that was the scene with Peter, which is, like, just the opposite. But.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah. Well, no one in this play is perfect, right? Like, there's the scene where the. Where Heidi, Scoop and Peter all come on the morning.

[Jesse Field]

Oh, my God.

[Matt Koplik]

And Scoop and Peter just talk over Heidi the entire time.

[Jesse Field]

Just talk over her the whole time. Even the. The reporters keeps trying to reach out to Heidi, and they just keep answering every question.

[Matt Koplik]

Yep.

[Jesse Field]

Unbearable and accurate. Peter.

[Matt Koplik]

Peter does not like. Peter does not answer for Heidi where a Scoop does. At least I don't think so. If I recall, Peter's biggest fault for talking so much is anytime something is said that he thinks needs to be corrected, like, the whole how old a woman can be to bear children, he's like, it's very important to him, like, make sure the world knows. Yeah. As a doctor, I need you to know. And then anytime he's thinking scoops, just being a dick, he's like, I have to respond to that. But no, I think, yeah. He might talk over Heidi a couple of times as well.

[Jesse Field]

They both definitely interrupt her, at the very least.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah. And Heidi as a character, I don't find any moments in the play where Heidi is, like, necessarily doing anything bad to others. She can be a little selfish and a little obtuse.

[Jesse Field]

Yes.

[Matt Koplik]

And, like, not be aware, I would say, do I.

[Jesse Field]

Treating herself badly.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah. She's not always great to herself, but she's not necessarily terrible to others. And I think that's partly because, you know, she is sort of a visitor in her own life and in her own generation. She's. She's observing everything and not being as fully a part of any of it as she could. And so there's also something to be said about, like, how her friendships kind of go in and out because of it. Like, if. If you're not committing to something, how are you supposed to, like, expect anyone to commit back to you?

[Jesse Field]

Yeah. It's true. And it's like, that way, I think, that you sometimes, like, give up agency in your own life, and then by the end, she reclaims it. But you're right that she doesn't really do anything bad to anybody because she doesn't really do a lot of anything to anybody. The worst thing maybe she does is give that insane speech at her alma mater.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah. We're stuck with the aerobics class.

[Jesse Field]

Yeah. About the aerobics class. Great. Insane monologue. Really unhinged. I love it a lot.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah. What I like. What I like about that monologue is, like, she doesn't say anything. That's so prophetic.

[Jesse Field]

Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

What. What she ultimately concludes is something that, you know, always needs to be said. We shouldn't compare ourselves. Right. And, like, all that. But. But she's not giving this, like, here's the truth, ladies, and you're all going to walk out. Change. Today she gives a speech that's sort of like, it's not. It's not the worst speech in the world because, like, it's an entertaining story, but you're also like, where's this going? And then you're like, oh, God, is this woman unraveling before my eyes. Okay, well, she doesn't completely fall apart, but also, like, she's not completely together at the same time. Oh, oh, oh. Okay. Okay.

[Jesse Field]

Yeah, it's really twisty because at first it seems like she's giving a great speech that's going to have an enormous payoff, and it sort of just keeps winding off the road and off the road until it's just like a woman asking why she still feels alone and stranded when she is supposed to feel liberated and, like, apart from something bigger than her, but she just feels alone. And again, she's asking, like. Like she asked Fran. She's asking this room, like, why I thought we were in this together. Why do I feel alone? And. And then it's just over, you know, she leaves. I can't imagine what the room is like that she walks out of at that point. Awkward speech.

[Matt Koplik]

But the event is also called women. Where are we going? So, in a way, her speech is apropos.

[Jesse Field]

So apropos. Where are we going, Heidi?

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah, where are we going with the speech, Heidi? And then she's also kind of saying, like, where? Like, where have I gone to? I don't know where I am and I don't know what's next. And I feel like everyone has abandoned me. But also, no one knows where they're going yet. Also keep saying they do. Like, what is any of this?

[Jesse Field]

What is any of this? Great questions from Heidi.

[Matt Koplik]

Heidi asks the really specific questions. What is any of this?

[Jesse Field]

What is any of this? And we all go, ha. You know what, Heidi? I don't know either.

[Matt Koplik]

No, life is not like a painting.

[Jesse Field]

Oh, it sure isn't. It sure is. It. It's just great. And it's such a funny speech. And then it's so. It's just like the details of it all that Wendy Wasserstein is so funny. The way that the aerobics instructor is called Jeanette.

[Matt Koplik]

Like, yeah, she talks about all the different types of women in the locker room and how, like, the power businesswomen come in with their own heavier weights.

[Jesse Field]

And heavier weights from home.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah, all this stuff, it's just. Yeah. I don't know. Like, there's so much comedy to be had from just human observation. But that also does provide a great deal of isolation, for sure.

[Jesse Field]

And you feel the way. The way. The amount of detail that Heidi has about this locker room experience with all these women, you know, that she's an observer of her own life, just as certainly Wendy Wasserstein is in some ways or in all ways, as all Playwrights, I suppose, on some level.

[Matt Koplik]

Must be all good playwrights anyway.

[Jesse Field]

All good playwrights looking at the world and being able to synthesize it into something real. But Heidi really was, like, paying attention. There's so many details to this. And of course, that makes sense. She's an art historian. She looks at paintings. She tells us all about them. She's got great insights on it. But at the end of the day, you can't just look at something from the outside. You have to make choices from the inside. And that's why it's so lovely that we end with just her and her daughter that she chose as, like, a big decision. A big liberated, as it were, decision. Yeah, just. If she wants a daughter, go. Go get one. Go to the store. One daughter, please. What's the going rate on that? $5. I don't know.

[Matt Koplik]

What's interesting is that Wendy Wasserstein talked about when the play came out, the ending was actually kind of controversial for a lot of women.

[Jesse Field]

Not surprised to hear it.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah. Well, because they all thought that the play was ultimately saying, once you have a child, you'll finally be happy. And Wendy's like, no, no. Heidi's now happier because she's figuring out what it is that she wants and doing it in her own way. Like, Heidi has a specific. It's why I really hate how we as progressive thinking audiences now, any story that is told about a group that is not straight white men, that character has to represent the entire community.

[Jesse Field]

It's such a big nightmare. And especially back then when it's like these early stories that were so rare to see. I mean, they're still rare to see. Honestly, you do bear the burden of needing to be, like, the perfect, the ideal minority. And everything you say ripples out as the only choice for everyone. When certainly what this play is talking about is just picking the thing that is going to actually make you happy. And it doesn't really matter what that thing is. And if she picked Job, I think a different group of women would feel equally disappointed in that. But she can't pick everything. Yeah, it's the thing that's true and certainly the thing that's true for. I think Wendy Wasserstein, who. Who had a child in her 40s, never revealed who the father was or what happened.

[Matt Koplik]

But she predicted her own future. Wendy had her child through childbirth. She didn't adopt, whereas Heidi adopted. But, yeah, it doesn't matter what road Heidi would choose at the end of the play. Someone would have an issue with it. The only Sort of saving grace when it comes to these reactions is like, usually it takes about two years after the thing comes out, and then the community is like, okay, we can recognize how it's good because you people will now look at it as part of the whole tapestry of works. So, like, for example, when like, call me by your name came out, people who loved it, and then people who are like, this doesn't represent my story. And then after like three years, we're like, oh, well, when you put it alongside the 50 other stories that have come out in the last 15 years, it's just a really well done one in the tapestry. I'm like, yeah, can we not think of that the moment it comes out?

[Jesse Field]

And then truly everybody get with it. But that is exactly why we need such a broad tapestry of diverse storytelling that covers so many stories that we have art that resonates with everybody. And it was so rare. I mean, God, if there's a point beaten over our head in this play, it's like, there are not that many women artists. And so we must talk about them. And here's the. And that's certainly true for playwrights. I mean, I was told to read Wendy Wasserstein because she is a woman playwright and I am a woman playwright. And. And there is, like, resentment to that. Like, what do we share? And then, of course, it's like, everything, actually. But, yeah, you know, you're not.

[Matt Koplik]

You're not required to like her. You're not required to even think she's very good. But it's.

[Jesse Field]

I.

[Matt Koplik]

What?

[Jesse Field]

But I do both. I like.

[Matt Koplik]

And we're very glad for. Well, I. Because I. I agree. I think she was. Is a very good playwright. Do I think everything she wrote was great? No. But I also don't think everything Tennessee Williams wrote was great. Anyone who tells you that Camino Royale, or whatever it's called is good is lying to you, but you know, you. There is sort of like a kinship and a support you want to have. It's like, well, as, you know, as a queer person and creative, like, I do want to support all the queer works that come out. That doesn't mean I'm required to like them. I can give honest feedback and. And constructive criticism on it in hopes that someone who's wanting to make queer works in the future can make something even better. I am definitely of the mind frame that the most universal stories are the most specific ones, the ones that do not preach and rather just give you insight into something like, it's like a snapshot into Someone's world. And that is what Heidi Chronicles is. You know, it's not there. And there are conversations where people talk about, like, the overall idea of feminism and what does it mean to be woman. But. But. But again, Wendy Wasserstein is so good at comedy that it goes down easy. And she gives you scenes in which those conversations make sense. They're not. It's not. God damn. Did you see the new 1776?

[Jesse Field]

I sure did.

[Matt Koplik]

Matt, do you recall in Act Dose, right as they're about to sign LA Constitution, and Adams is all like, it's not perfect. Oh, no. What. What can we do? And Franklin is. Looks at Adams and goes, how? You know, what can we do? Like, we're nothing. We're just men. And they all. Everyone starts slowly looking out to the audience. We are all just men. And hopefully history will remember that when they think of us. And then they go back or like, there's.

[Jesse Field]

That was, like, the worst moment of my life is when they looked at us.

[Matt Koplik]

Hate it. There's another moment, like, Abigail Adams does something that I know for sure, something that they added to the script where she, like, walks on stage. She's like, It's. I know it's. It comes from a letter Abigail Adams actually wrote to John Adams about do not forget the women. But they definitely tweak it a bit where she's like. And everyone knows how amazing women are, and we should not be forgotten or ignored because one day we will inherit everything. And it's like, does it on a bevel. And like, look out to the. Looks out to the mezzanine. And she's like, I'm not preaching, but however, I am extending my arm as I say all of this, and I'm like, can you not piss on my leg and tell me it's raining?

[Jesse Field]

I know. Well, that's the thing about the whole thing. I won't. I'll try not to get too derailed by this, although I'd love to, but.

[Matt Koplik]

It'S like, think of where you're at, Jesse. You're on Broadway. Breakdown. Get derailed. Do the tangent. Do the tangent. Do the tangent.

[Jesse Field]

Let me simply say, when you're trying to force meaning upon a text that was never meant to say any of the things you're trying to say. I guess I get that when any line seems vaguely related to the thing that you're trying to shove in here, you want to point at it really hard. But like, God, that text did not support whatever they were trying to do. And frankly, like, to be perfectly Honest, I'm never going to forgive them for not letting Thomas Jefferson kiss his wife. Why didn't they kiss Matt? Why didn't they kiss? The whole plot declaration until they fuck and they're not gonna kiss. There's a line that says, look how they fit together. They're just like slow dancing. Is it because they're both women? Because I'll never forgive them if that's the case.

[Matt Koplik]

I also never forgive them for not allowing Martha Jefferson to want to fuck her husband. Rather, they gave her the attitude of when they're like, well, we sent for her. And then she gives them a look. I'm like, you got the letter. What did you think you were coming up for to write the declaration?

[Jesse Field]

And I just have this horrible question. Why are they, like, diluting that there's no queerness in the piece at all? For a cast that is very visibly.

[Matt Koplik]

Queer, they are taking away a woman's autonomy to enjoy her sexuality. By underlining how much Martha is insulted that she's there as basically a flashlight. I'm like, no, no, she wants to. Her husband too.

[Jesse Field]

She's been horny this entire time too. Once the text is supporting something interesting about women's sexuality and now you're gonna fight the text. Like it's. Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

And then they make the second half, if he plays the violin, a mental breakdown.

[Jesse Field]

That was. I couldn't. I had no idea what was happening. So I will say, like, the minute that the curtain went up and I saw that cast on stage, like something like, it was a. I felt deeply emotional about that. And then I just wish that they were doing any other play in the world.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah, Listen, I like 1776. I think it is objectively a well written piece that. That said, I am not so, like, devoted to it that I'm like, how dare you alter any of the ticks? How dare you do it with women? I thought, like, the idea of all of a non cisgender male cast, I'm like, cool, let's see what happens. And then it just.

[Jesse Field]

In many ways, it is the most I ever enjoyed myself at 1776. And in other ways, part of that was because I kept going, oh.

[Matt Koplik]

But.

[Jesse Field]

You know, like, I. I grew up in 1776 and I loved, like, the new orchestrations and like, it was very. And it was just fun to see. I just love watching women do anything. Or femme people do anything.

[Matt Koplik]

God, I really hope one of the ad breaks for this isn't still 1776, which is pretty funny because it used to be. We used to have ad breaks for that show, but I think we're past that part. That one, I think that was just for the beginning of November. I think I'm hoping for the second half. We'll see. We'll see. But yeah. God, I really try not to piss too hard on that production because it'll be closed soon enough.

[Jesse Field]

But like, I love. If you're going to do an adaptation, like a revival, please, please do it new. I want that. I love that. I still will have problems with it if I have problems with it. Yeah. I mean, I'm not glad they did it. You know, they tried something.

[Matt Koplik]

But I think what it is, though connecting it to Heidi Chronicles in a way is didn't feel like anybody really explored the nuances. They were much more interested in the immediate gratification of a liberal based subscriber audience cheering on any little notion of feminism they could sort of shimmy their shoulders to instead of really digging deep into the complexity of it all. Similar to the queer element, this being sexually driven and like. And exploring that being having more masculine traits, feminine traits, whatever though. Whatever the fuck those things mean, right? And then with Heidi Chronicles, it's sort of, you know, we. We see different women have very specific ideas of what it means to be a feminist, what it means to be successful as a woman. And Heidi's just constantly confused because she's like. But she's like, what then? What am I? And if you think it's this and you think it's that, are you both wrong? Are you both right? What, like, what is? All she wants are answers. And unfortunately, like, we don't get many answers.

[Jesse Field]

You just have to choose them for yourself, you know, which is.

[Matt Koplik]

That is feminism.

[Jesse Field]

There it is. And you get to pick what feminism is. Feminism could literally be marrying a husband and quitting your job and raising a family at home. That's feminism. If that's what the woman chooses.

[Matt Koplik]

This is what Charlotte York Goldenblatt spoke of in the season four episode, I think it's called Crime and Punishment. Yes. Where she tells Miranda when she's thinking of quitting her job so she and Trey could start a family. The women's movement is supposed to be about choice. And I choose my choice.

[Jesse Field]

Yes. And she's right.

[Matt Koplik]

I mean, she chose. She is right. She left her job be at the nudging of Trey. And we don't love that. And also because she and Trey were not a good match. However, Charlotte did choose to get married to him after only knowing him for a month. She chose to get married to him after meeting Bunny, so. But she. She learned from her mistake. She didn't realize she was handed the stick of dynamite, even though her friends.

[Jesse Field]

Tried to say her, because it's very easy from that vantage point. But she picked the thing she truly believed would make her happy. Charlotte always wanted that sort of life, famously on Sex, Sex and the City, and she needed it to blow up.

[Matt Koplik]

In order for her to come down and realize how wonderful her life with Harry was. It's. It's. I like. I very much enjoy that arc. It's a good arc on the show.

[Jesse Field]

It is. It is a good arc. And that's feminism, baby. Pick whatever you want. There's no rules and there's no wrong answers. As opposed to there being like, everything is an answer. Find your own answer. Pick your own answer. And if it's right for you, it's right. I mean, the whole show we're watching, Heidi just be like. Like, she's such a sad girl, which I feel like is most girls, but not all girls actually, but lots. Lots of sad girls out here who just feel sometimes like, you know, if it didn't. If it didn't work out in this way, or like you're like, something is wrong with me that I'm like, not meeting these bench points, that I'm not hitting these flags and I'm not succeeding, quote, unquote. But there's nothing. There's no right way to live a life. It's just what works. And some people have it very easy. Maybe you'll meet your perfect person at the age of 15 and live a gorgeous life together. Or maybe you'll live a gorgeous life alone with lots of friends and. Or anything in between.

[Matt Koplik]

I think the important thing to remember always is that it starts with you. Yes, it always starts with you. You have. And I can't speak for you or anyone. I can definitely say for myself, a lot of times life is me distracting myself from sadness. And the sad. I will have sadness flare ups that can get exacerbated by things and people, experiences and romances and jobs that just really fucking cut away at my soul. And you don't realize it immediately, but you eventually build yourself back up and you ha. In order for someone to be your anchor, you have to also be theirs. In order to be that anchor, you gotta be strong, bitch.

[Jesse Field]

Yes, you do. And that's very resonant, Matt. Certainly if there's one sad girl in the world, sad girl, tm, it's me. And I've been, you know, like Hi, it's me.

[Matt Koplik]

I'm the problem. It's me also. I'm gonna write that down. I like that. I like what I just said, but keep talking.

[Jesse Field]

Please write it down. But I. I think that sometimes we. This is. This is like a personal thing that I've been thinking about all month, which is that, like, how much do I conjure my own sadness? How much of it. Is it a fun part of my personality? And how much is it thrust upon me by a world that maybe rejects like, fat, queer women? Or. And how much of it am I doing to myself because at some point I decided that I don't deserve something or I'm not allowed to be happy because I'm wrong in these ways. And like, I truly. I think. I actually believe that we can put a measure of that down and just put it down and walk away from that and think, well, what. I'm certainly allowed to be happy and maybe I just will be and maybe I'll just move towards the things that make me happy. And maybe nothing was ever wrong and I haven't failed at anything and just we're all different and everything is great. Is sort of the month I'm having.

[Matt Koplik]

I love that I'm sort of in the mind frame of. Failure is unavoidable and you don't realize you're failing at something until you're pretty knee deep in it. The important thing is to be able to walk away eventually and take some lessons from it. Yeah, because you're gonna succeed again. Just because you failed today doesn't mean you're gonna fail forever. And everything passes and you can change and people can change and you don't know what the future holds. I. Listen, I could not have told you the last five months of my life recently. We're going to be the most those five months. So I look forward to what the next five months are because they can only be wild at this point.

[Jesse Field]

Could not agree more. And same same math. I. I could not have predicted anything that's happened in my life. Not at all. And sometimes the surprises are horrible and sometimes they're so wonderful and it's just like just. Just be in your life. I would say choose things, try things.

[Matt Koplik]

How can you take what you've been given and make it work for you? How do you. To quote Kimberly Akimbo, oh, great.

[Jesse Field]

Please.

[Matt Koplik]

When life gives you lemons, you gotta go out and steal some apples because who the fuck wants lemons?

[Jesse Field]

Get your goddamn apples, everybody. And that's feminism.

[Matt Koplik]

And I think that's gonna be our tagline for this episode, and that is feminism.

[Jesse Field]

We solved it. We cracked feminism for you. It's apples.

[Matt Koplik]

I think the important thing to remember, though, is that, Jesse, you couldn't crack it until you talked to me, a man, famously.

[Jesse Field]

I agree. I was just actually going to say that. That. Thank God you were here, because I didn't even know what feminism meant before today, and I can't read either. So it was very hard to become familiar with the Heidi Chronicles.

[Matt Koplik]

I had to have it read to me by my landlord. By my male landlord.

[Jesse Field]

Sorry, my landlord is a woman.

[Matt Koplik]

Sorry. What's a female bike? Do you mean. Is that. What's a girl bike? Do you mean, like a female doctor? Get educated, Hitler. It's one of my favorite 30 Rock jokes when Liz is on the mommy message boards and she's like, we're looking for a girl bike. She's 12. And they're like, what's a girl bikes that? Like a female doctor, you Hitler.

[Jesse Field]

Yeah, well, what is a girl? I feel like they were made so women could bike in skirts. And I'm like, surely we must be over that by now. But whatever.

[Matt Koplik]

I don't know. I'm also listening to the Office Ladies podcast with Jenna Fisher and Angela Kinsey, and they talk sometimes about certain things on the show. They're like, oh, boy. But they fat. They did research, and they found out that they. They never really clocked that women's pantsuits don't have pockets on them. And then they were like, well, let's figure out why that is. And it's. You know, there are misogynistic.

[Jesse Field]

It's oppression, the lack of pockets. That's the worst depression in our society. It's not the worst oppression, but it's a big problem, and I hate it. And I famously love pockets and indeed have written several musical sequences about that.

[Matt Koplik]

About having pockets?

[Jesse Field]

About how women should have pockets. Yes.

[Matt Koplik]

I mean, there's famously a song called Pocket Full of Sunshine.

[Jesse Field]

Very related, clearly, about women and pockets and how we should have them. They're insane. Go look at women's pants. Go look at the pockets they give us. Sometimes they're not even pockets. Sometimes they sew a line into the pants so it looks like there's a pocket, but there's no pocket at all. And I think they're just trying to sell us handbags. But I want pockets to hold rocks. That I find as all women. All women just want pockets so they can hold rocks and frogs that they find on their nature walk box. And I think that God forbid you're.

[Matt Koplik]

And all I want is a Birkin. Jesse, take my pockets. Give me your Birkin.

[Jesse Field]

Done and done. I do. I buy men's coats now because they're full of pockets. Do you know how many pockets you get? And did you know clothes have no gender actually? So I can just, I can just buy pockets.

[Matt Koplik]

Exactly. Exactly. What's a woman's pantsuit? Is that like a male man?

[Jesse Field]

A mailman? I'll tell you, they sure don't have pockets. And everything should. And the moral of the Heidi Chronicles is please give women pockets. Thank you.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah. If, listen, if women had pockets, Heidi would have cue cards for her speech at the where are Women Going?

[Jesse Field]

Seminar.

[Matt Koplik]

That speech might have gone a lot better. I do love her. She was like, she's like true to form. I did not write a speech. And that's where you're like, oh, fuck.

[Jesse Field]

And then I'll tell you, the only thing that Wendy was. He ever says to me that I don't believe is what Heidi says. I true. I didn't prepare anything. And then she tells that story and I'm like, yes, you did. You came up with that on the fly. You said it so gorgeously. But it does descend into madness. I guess I could do it as like, Heidi's very, very smart, which she certainly is. But I'll tell you, it's a hell of a speech.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah, it's. Well, that's, that is the double edged sword of being intelligent and articulate is that people don't always realize what a mess you are because you can express yourself so clearly.

[Jesse Field]

Yes.

[Matt Koplik]

And it's like, just because I can say the right words doesn't mean what I'm feeling is any less up.

[Jesse Field]

Yep. Abs, it might be even more up. And that's why they write the most interesting plays.

[Matt Koplik]

That's also being a dramatic writer similar to like any kind of artistic work, like acting, for example. I've mentioned this before. There's a little bit of having to be a sociopath.

[Jesse Field]

Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

You are capturing the human experience and then trying to package it in a way that can be palatable to the masses.

[Jesse Field]

Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

And you know, actors have to tap into their mental well and their emotional well to recreate eight times a week certain emotions and, and, and whatnot. And that requires some sociopathy. I don't know. But that's probably not the right word or pronunciation, but who the fuck cares?

[Jesse Field]

But you know what you mean.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah, you know what I mean. But there's also, I mean, there's A manipulation to that that, you know, is hard to sometimes draw a fine line of. Of health and not toxicity and not have a bleed into your life. I don't know. Maybe I'm projecting, but that is. But you know what I mean. Like, it. There's. You can. You can be so smart and so creative, and you can see the bigger picture. And again, as a writer, you take what you know and you. And you pick pieces from your life and. And because you inherently understand, like, what might work in a dramatic story and. And put it in there, and someone who doesn't know you, who hasn't experienced any of it, can watch it and feel something. But then, like, someone from your life can clock certain things from it and go, I'm sorry. So were you actually upset that day when we spoke, or were you just sitting there pretending to be upset and mentally clocking everything I said so you could put it in your play?

[Jesse Field]

Yeah, it gets very complicated. Life is art is. Life is art. And, yeah, the lines blur, and it can be hard to separate them. I often think in stage directions. I feel as I'm sort of observing the world around me because. Or sometimes I'll, you know, like, script my own behavior such that I can. Because I can. And sometimes it's easier to work off of a little script. But certainly, regardless of how anyone presents, there's a deep inner life and often turmoil that cannot be ignored. And if you try to ignore it, Heidi, then you're just gonna fuck up the speech and end it in a really weird place about your.

[Matt Koplik]

I feel stranded about your aerobics class. Feeling stranded. On that note, let's take one more break.

[Jesse Field]

Really? I beg to differ with you.

[Matt Koplik]

How do you mean?

[Jesse Field]

You're the top. Yeah, you're an arrow collar. You're the top.

[Matt Koplik]

You're a Coolidge dollar. We're back.

[Jesse Field]

Wow. Each break is more refreshing than the last map.

[Matt Koplik]

I'm becoming more of a feminist by each break.

[Jesse Field]

I learned how to read over the.

[Matt Koplik]

Last break, and I learned how not to.

[Jesse Field]

And now we're gonna switch.

[Matt Koplik]

Now we're gonna switch now. You do Glengarry Glen Ross, and I do Heidi.

[Jesse Field]

There we go.

[Matt Koplik]

Yes. A play by the least controversial and toxic playwright of all time. Yay, David. Don't ever shut up. David, when reading this play, was there any. Were there any voices you heard in your head while reading it, like actors who you were imagining in the roles? Because I do that sometimes. Yeah.

[Jesse Field]

Well, it's so interesting because I was looking it up, too, and I saw that fucking Elizabeth Moss did the revival.

[Matt Koplik]

I saw half of that revival.

[Jesse Field]

Oh, did you walk out intermission, or did you?

[Matt Koplik]

I did not, because it was bad. I had an audition for Jersey Boys and the Cat. I was informed at intermission of Heidi Chronicles that the main casting director, like, the person who's really, like, in charge of all of that, would be leaving soon because it was rather dead at the call, and my appointment wasn't for another two hours. And they're like, she's gonna leave probably in the next 45. But there's no one here, so you can just walk in if you want. And I was like, I am not enjoying this enough to miss being in front of Mary, for sure. Yeah. And listen, was it worth it? I didn't end up being in Jersey Boys, but I did get called in for other things, so who's to say? Didn't get any of those either. But for a brief moment, I went. Worth not seeing Elizabeth Moth's Act 2 breakdown, but I did.

[Jesse Field]

If you hadn't tried, Matt, maybe it would haunt you, wondering if you would have gone on to Jersey Boys. Like, I think you've got to open every door just for your own sanity.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah. I would have resented Elizabeth Moss forever. But, yes, it was really not a very funny production. It was very cold and dry.

[Jesse Field]

Yeah, I've heard that, and I do believe it, because I think it's sort of interesting who we're thinking of. Heidi is often described as like, an everyman, or, dare I say, in every woman. And it's like, sort of, who at the moment is going to be that person? It was so fun to watch, honestly, Jamie Lee Curtis do it in the little TV movie that I obsessively watched last night, where I was like, I'll just watch a clip. And then I was like, no, I will watch all of it.

[Matt Koplik]

All of it.

[Jesse Field]

Because it's like, who is that person who's going to sort of, like, gently hold all of womanhood in her bones? What does it mean for that person to be Heidi in, like, a world of. Of women who. Who do we want to put the spotlight on as, like, the center of all of this? And I don't know why. So. So I guess what I'm really saying, it's. And it's interesting, too, because it's a piece anchored in color, in time. It's a piece anchored in a time period. And I. And it's different now to do this play than it was to do it then and to do it every year in between then and now. And so the question of, like, who should lead the Heidi Chronicles if they were to do it again is very interesting to me. I've never seen a woman of color do it. And I think that I would like to see what that changes. I've seen, like an actor of color plays Susan in a clip that I stopped. But I just think, you know, like, the person I think of is Taylor Iman Jones. But I don't know how that's going to ripple out through the piece and if it'll make it better or if it will make it, like, sadder.

[Matt Koplik]

Well, it's like, do you go for someone who has really dynamic stage presence or do you go for someone who's really good at kind of being the wallflower? Like, I was thinking, like, what would Nina Arianda do with this? Like, would she. Because she is such a vivacious presence. And the thing about Heidi is, like, she's not an extraordinary individual. You know, she's not someone who, like, is so mind bogglingly brilliant and interesting and leads this incredible life. What she is, she's very smart, she's very kind. But, like, it's, you know, how, like, we're. How more people are finally waking up to the fact that, like, the not like other girls concept is very sexist.

[Jesse Field]

Yes.

[Matt Koplik]

Like, it's not that Heidi is, quote, unquote, not like other girls. Heidi is. And we'll talk about this now as we get into the wedding scene, the fight between Scoop and Heidi, if there's one thing Scoop gets right, is that he does not say that Heidi stands alone as a 10. He acknowledges that there are so many women like Heidi, which is great because, like, Heidi's a smart, successful, driven woman with, who has also empathy and an ability to, you know, show kindness when maybe she doesn't need to. So it's nice to know that there are plenty of women out there like her and that this piece of Scoop can at least acknowledge that. Now, there's a caveat to that statement because he follows it up with, and y' all are gonna be miserable.

[Jesse Field]

Yeah, yeah, he does. But in not.

[Matt Koplik]

I think there is a truth to it though, because when you are. When you are smart and are aware that you're smart, when you're able to use your gifts to be successful, it is what you want to do. And when you put all your energy behind one thing and really get so much out of it, there are other things that you're going to want that you'll never get or maybe you won't get till later. Or it won't be exactly what you want. And when you're aware of your value as a human, what you're capable of, and what you're being denied by so many things that are out of your control, it is hard to not let that sadness overwhelm you. We were literally just talking about this about, like, so many times. The work that we're doing, the people we see. Sometimes it's just like a momentary distraction from when you're alone and you're like. And I'm sad. Even though I like me, even though I think I'm smart and I'm capable, I am still sad.

[Jesse Field]

Yeah. It's a real curse of intelligence. I think famously, one might say ignorance is bliss. Even.

[Matt Koplik]

I've never heard that before. Did you just come up with that?

[Jesse Field]

I actually wrote that just now. I'm a genius.

[Matt Koplik]

Good for you. You are a genius.

[Jesse Field]

Thank you. Thank you for noticing that. But I think that there's also, like, there's a way in which piece of shit guys like Scoop make that true. And there's that great little thing that Heidi says in the end in her last scene with Scoop, where she says, like, maybe one day Pierre Rosenbaum, Scoop's son, and Judy Holland will meet on a plane over Chicago and, like. And he'll never tell her it's either or baby. Like. And then maybe it won't have to. Like, she'll. What does she say? She'll never think she's worthless unless he lets her have it all.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah.

[Jesse Field]

And maybe things will be a little better. And, yes, that does make me happy, says Heidi. And it's like. It's like this feeling that some of the. The profound sadness is, like. Is societal and, like, thrust. Thrust upon us the way that we feel that we don't fit or we don't make it, or we. And if we just were never told these things were wrong or bad, would we ever feel anything about them? If Scoop didn't feel. Have all these opinions about the whole. Whole world, I mean, could, you know, could they have been happy together? I. I don't know. I don't like him. So I think no. But, you know, he would be a different person. I guess in that scenario, it's a. It's just a question of, like, what. What is the thing.

[Matt Koplik]

The healthiest thing Scoop ever did was not marry Heidi.

[Jesse Field]

Yeah. What? She says, like, I couldn't leave you dangling anymore. That's why I married her. As. Which we haven't said yet. And then they kiss at his wedding while the Dance is supposed to. To be dancing with his wife. Plays yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

He's literally supposed to have his first dance with his wife. And the wife ends up having her first dance with Peter.

[Jesse Field]

Peter. She. She.

[Matt Koplik]

She invites him on the floor. She's like, have my first dance with me. And then. So Scoop has this fight with Heidi and then kisses her and then they dance. Although I wouldn't. That kiss isn't really like a we're going to start up again kiss.

[Jesse Field]

Not at all. No. It's like a goodbye. Like a painful, twisted, this chapter is over kiss.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah.

[Jesse Field]

It's just crazy because it's at his wedding.

[Matt Koplik]

And then act two, he's all like, I'm not as much in her life as I used to be, and I'm sad about it. I don't know what happened. It's like, what do you mean you don't know what happened? You got married, motherfucker. You have another life to lead. She's trying to move on.

[Jesse Field]

And there's the idea of. We always ask if women can have it all. Men just assume that they could have it all at this time, that he could have a wife and Heidi and. And everything. And, you know, in some ways he can, and in some ways he does. And in some ways, Scoop also made a choice, and he gave up Heidi. And it was certainly what's best for her because he sucks. But also, you know, everybody just be out here making choices in pursuit of happiness. Scoop does not seem happy to me. In the last scene that they share, Heidi is the one who seems to have found her way. And Scoop is, like, flailing around like a man on fire who can't find the fucking. I don't know how you put out a fire, a sink, stop, drop, and roll.

[Matt Koplik]

You know, Scoop is the. Is a textbook example of happiness comes from within. And you gotta, you know, get your house in order if you want to find any kind of peace. It's not about the things. It's not about the achievements. It's about getting your own self together. And he never really got himself together. He was so confident and sure of himself. He never really checked in with what it was that he really wanted, only what he thought he could get what he was worth. And, yeah, as you said, now he's flailing. There's something else I was gonna say.

[Jesse Field]

Happens to the best of us.

[Matt Koplik]

It does. It really does. I keep forgetting what it was I was gonna say something on Scoop. Something on Scoop and Heidi's relationship. Oh, the. The dynamic they have. And I. So you're quoting Heidi towards the end about their kids because he. He has now two kids and she has her adopted baby. And she says she won't feel like she doesn't have value. And I think the line is, actually, unless she gives him all of it.

[Jesse Field]

Or something like that, he'll never tell her it's either or baby, and she'll never think she's worthless unless he lets her have it all.

[Matt Koplik]

I wonder if my book is different.

[Jesse Field]

Then.

[Matt Koplik]

Maybe she finally changed it. Let me see, where is it? Unless he lets her have it all. No, you're right. You're right. That changes then what my original thought was, which was like, it's hard to know sometimes when you are looking out for number one and when you're just being selfish. It's hard to know when you're being supportive or when you're just letting someone take everything you've got to give. And there is a value you can feel in yourself when someone you think highly of takes from you because you go, well, they're so great and they want what I have. Clearly that means I am worth something. But then once they have it and you're left with nothing. The. And that is definitely sort of the attitude of their relationship in Act 1. Act 2 is much more healthy, mostly due to her own distance. But I would argue she also basically spends the rest of act two in that, like, remaining decade getting back all the things that scoop and every other man in her life drained from her, which she was not aware was happening because she was also doing all the other things that she told was feminism, like protesting the museum to get women artists having a career writing a book. And it's the emotional relationship shit that she wasn't keeping track of. And that's where, like, so much of her power was getting drained.

[Jesse Field]

So true. So true. And it happened so, so sneaky. Very sneaky. How it happens.

[Matt Koplik]

Let us take it how it happens.

[Jesse Field]

Yeah. God. And ain't that life? I'll tell you. But it's never too late to go after the things you want. And it's just like there's such a. A, you know, I think that you feel sort of Heidi's happiness. And it's not like an exuberant happiness in the last scene. It's like a quiet happiness. Like something that was wrong feels better in like a very subtle way. And it's. It's lovely. It's not all or nothing. It's not like. And then you get cute kiss and happily ever after. Fireworks. Fireworks. Euphoria for all of time. Life is like a big, long, stretchy thing, and we got to watch 30 years of it with Heidi, and it's a real. It's a real gift to get to watch 30 years of a life really condensed into a little play like this. And also, you. I like. I feel it. Like, I. We know things at the end. Like, they can reference things that happen to them 30 years ago. And of course we remember, because that was six scenes ago. But we go, oh, yes, remember that. The day they met when they were just children. And now here they are 30 years later, best friends or ex lovers or whatever they are. And it's just. That's life. And I think it's always. I. I love a play like this where you step back and you remember that this is what we have. This is all we have. And, God, you better make the choices that make you happy, because what, nobody's gonna do it for you? And there isn't more? Probably so. God, aren't we lucky to be here right now?

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah. Choose happiness, y'. All.

[Jesse Field]

Yeah, just do it. I'm just kidding. It's really hard, but do it anyway.

[Matt Koplik]

It. Oh, it's so hard. And so many people keep on. People keep on not choosing it. They keep on choosing what they think is what they should do, what they're.

[Jesse Field]

Told to do, what they think they deserve.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah.

[Jesse Field]

Well, guys, just so you know, you deserve the world. You deserve every happiness.

[Matt Koplik]

Well, some people don't, but not all of true. God, all of you. But exactly, don't, don't. Don't be a scoop and go for what you are told are the things to do and the people that you think you can get or that you know, as Jesse so rightly said, that you deserve not. And not in a positive. Like, I'm great. I deserve a good person, but look rather like I'm flawed. So I deserve exactly something that sinks me.

[Jesse Field]

You deserve a good person indeed.

[Matt Koplik]

It's nice.

[Jesse Field]

Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

Oh, good. People are nice. Jesse, this has been lovely.

[Jesse Field]

Yes, it has.

[Matt Koplik]

Always a pleasure with you. Now, before we wrap things up, we have a new game on this podcast. I look. I look forward to seeing if you can help me with this. What we. They. They are essentially the same game, just the different titles. We are going to do a 6 degrees game with two different women. I can do one because I'm. I. Everyone just knows how much I am obsessed with her. It's called Six Degrees of Sally Murphy Steppenwolf, Broadway actress Sally Murphy, currently in Downstate, a playwright's horizons Where Heidi Chronicles premiered in New York. So we find six degrees from the Heidi Chronicles to Sally Murphy. The other one is called who Lives, who Dies? Jeanine Tesori. And guess what? It's just six degrees of Jeanine Tesori.

[Jesse Field]

Well, God, I love Jeanine Tesori.

[Matt Koplik]

As do I. I can very quickly do original production of Heidi Chronicles to Sally Murphy. Peter Friedman was the original scoop in Heidi Chronicles. He played Tatya in the original ragtime with Audra McDonald's, who was in Carousel with Sally Murphy. Bing, bang.

[Jesse Field]

Yeah, gorgeous.

[Matt Koplik]

And we can do creative teams as well, and I think we can. We could also technically do replacements, but I. I'm trying not to do revivals.

[Jesse Field]

I could do Janine Tesori because Janine Tesori just wrote Kimberly Akimbo with David Lindsay, A bear who wrote Rabbit Hole, which starred Cynthia Nixon, who was in the Heidi Chronicles. Shut the fuck up.

[Matt Koplik]

I didn't even make that connection.

[Jesse Field]

Look at you, Jesse. I just was just thinking about all those people. So it's really luck of the draw.

[Matt Koplik]

This is why we pay you the big bucks.

[Jesse Field]

Ah, I can't wait for my enormous check in the mail.

[Matt Koplik]

It's so funny you call it that, because that's what I call my. My friend between my legs, because once a year, my doctor checks on him and he says, that's enormous.

[Jesse Field]

Oh, to be a man. Just kidding. It sounds horrible.

[Matt Koplik]

I know. Well, if I ever find out what it's like, I'll let you know.

[Jesse Field]

Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

Anyway, Jesse, where can people find you if you want them to find you, baby?

[Jesse Field]

Oh, gosh. You can find [e-mail] or on Instagram @js Field Theater.

[Matt Koplik]

Nowhere else. Only fans. No alt twitch. Are you on Hive now?

[Jesse Field]

Do you? But if everyone requested OnlyFans. Of course. I'm inches away from doing that. That just.

[Matt Koplik]

I want to do an only Fans with you, where it's just us sitting in bed in our underwear discussing feminism.

[Jesse Field]

Finally. Matt, I was waiting for you to ask me. I'll be there. Yeah, that's how we're gonna keep the podcast afloat.

[Matt Koplik]

And get income from anywhere you can.

[Jesse Field]

Plus, we love gay women and gay gay men in bed together. It'll be so platonic. Oh, my God.

[Matt Koplik]

Listen, Will and Grace was on the air for eight years and then another four after that, so anything's possible.

[Jesse Field]

Absolutely true.

[Matt Koplik]

If you want to follow me, I'm on Instagram only at Matt Koplik. Usual spelling. If you like the podcast rate, review, subscribe, give us. Nice five stars. Give Us a nice little rating. Yeah. We are going to take a quick break after this, about two weeks, because this is coming out right before. Right around Christmas, right before New Year's. And so we're going to take two weeks off and then pick this series back up again in the new year. What show are we covering? I don't know. This whole thing has been out of order. So join us for that then. Jesse, as I'm sure you remember, we do close out with a Broadway diva. I'm trying to think of one who maybe is related to the Heidi Chronicles, but I can't really think of any. All these. All these fabulous women don't really sing. SJP does, but we've. We've closed out with her before.

[Jesse Field]

Gosh. Jamie Lee Curtis. She doesn't sing. Does she sing in Freaky Friday?

[Matt Koplik]

She doesn't. It's the one flaw in her performance in Freaky Friday.

[Jesse Field]

Bummer.

[Matt Koplik]

I also love how it's like we kept talking about how Heidi's the every woman. And then in the TV movie, it's Jamie Lee Curtis film. Like, that woman is so special.

[Jesse Field]

I know. And isn't that the funny part of the world, telling women like Jamie Lee Curtis. Whatever.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah. Toni Collette. What a basic ugly girl. And I'm like, I'm sorry. That is the most incredible person on earth.

[Jesse Field]

You all thought. Can we not pretend.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah, can we stop pretending that Toni Collette and Muriel's wedding is repulsive? She is so beautiful. She's so gorgeous.

[Jesse Field]

Gorgeous people.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah. One of my favorite movie reviews is the movie in her shoes with Tony Clinton, Cameron Diaz. Decent movie. It's a. Yeah, it's a fun movie. But in the. I think it's the Times review, they're like. And, you know, Toni Collette is the quote, unquote, heavier sister. And then in parentheses, they're like, I love how Hollywood thinks a size 8 is plus size.

[Jesse Field]

It's insane dislike for me. Big thumbs down, as it were. But I do love that movie, actually. I carry your heart in my heart.

[Matt Koplik]

It's a funny movie. Well, well, sometimes funny. It's often very sad. But. Okay, here's what we're gonna do. We haven't closed out with her yet, and this is very old school, but Wendy Wasserstein's next big play, the Sisters Rosenswag. Yes. Won a Tony award for one Ms. Madeline Kahn. All right, so we're gonna close out with Madeline Kahn.

[Jesse Field]

Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

A wed woes. A wed woes. Flames on the side of my face.

[Jesse Field]

Clue. Thank you.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah. Young Frankenstein, Clue, Blazing Saddles, that woman, and what's up, Doc? So good, anyway. Yeah, so that's it. Thank you so much for listening, guys. We'll see you in two weeks in the new year. And, yeah, have a great time. Take us away, Miss Madeline by.

[Jesse Field]

Day Tell him you heard it here Tell him, Tell him you heard it clear Tell him if he comes through that door I will trample him through the floor Tell him, Tell him I'll strangle him Tell him, tell him.