Broadway Breakdown — "The King and I" with Corey Lubowich

Podcast Host: Matt Koplik
Guest: Corey Lubowich
Release Date: November 30, 2023

Episode Overview

In this episode, host Matt Koplik is joined by theatrical creator Corey Lubowich (of Team Starkid) for a dive into Rodgers & Hammerstein’s The King and I—both its legacy and its “problematic” baggage. As part of Broadway Breakdown's "Problematic? Shows You’re Mad At and Their Possible Redemption" series, the episode covers the musical’s history, questions of representation and Orientalism, and the enduring appeal (and controversy) of this classic. Expect passionate opinions, irreverent humor, and deep musical theatre geekery.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Personal Histories with The King and I

• Exposure:
  • Corey first encountered the show via the original movie on VHS, a staple in his grandparents’ home.
  • Matt saw the movie early on and caught the 2015 Lincoln Center revival live (once with Kelli O’Hara, once with Marin Mazzie)—preferring Mazzie’s “ballsier” take on Anna ([04:18]).
• Opulence in Staging:
  • Matt notes The King and I offers lush opportunities for grand, opulent stagecraft, referencing iconic elephants in the 1996 revival’s design ([02:24]).

2. What’s the Plot, Anyway?

• Corey’s Summary ([05:49]):

  "There’s this British lady named Anna. She comes to Siam ... to teach English to the children of the King. Classic fish out of water, but also a little white savior. ... They both learn from each other."

• Matt on Nuance:

  • The musical is “more complex than people give it credit for,” showing mutual learning and stubbornness between Anna and the King, though some scenes have “white savior” overtones, especially near the end ([07:27–10:49]).

3. What Makes it Work? The Score and Emotional Impact

• Corey:

  “I do think the score is gorgeous... it just like inject[s] that right into my veins ... I definitely felt that when I saw the [2015] revival” ([11:02]).

• Musicals as Emotional Shortcuts:

  • “The magic trick with musicals … it’s a biological shortcut to feeling emotion … you just sort of bypass the brain. Then you go straight into the body. You feel it” ([12:50]).

• Favorite Musicals for Emotional/Intellectual Catharsis:

  • Corey: Falsettos
  • Matt likes listening to Act I, watching Act II ([17:34–18:34]).

4. Problematic? Framing, Orientalism, and the White Savior Narrative

• On the Term “Problematic”:

  • Matt distinguishes the original meaning (a musical that doesn’t work structurally) vs. the contemporary moral usage ([07:53–08:08]).

• Framing & Orientalism:

  • Both note the show’s inherent “exotic Orientalism” and that Hammerstein, for his time, genuinely tried to fight stereotypes—even if the result is still questionable ([19:33], [21:42]).
  • Matt:

    “It’s ironic because that’s something that Hammerstein wanted to go against with the show. And the question is, how well did he succeed?" ([21:46]).

• Accent and Dialect Issues:

  • Hammerstein wrote phonetically, sometimes awkwardly, for non-English speakers; this is easily remedied now ([22:24]).

5. Historical Context & Authorship Intent

• Adaptation Lineage:
  • Real-life Anna Leonowens' memoir → highly fictionalized novel → 1946 movie → musical. The team prioritized representing Siamese culture realistically for its time, rather than pure historical accuracy ([30:33]).
• Casting/Early Productions:
  • Yul Brynner, of partial Mongolian descent, was cast as the King. The original production’s star, Gertrude Lawrence, influenced the vocal line and comedy ([31:07]).

6. Representation and Diversity on Broadway

• Complications of Representation:
  • Matt and Corey lament that because there’s so little Asian representation on Broadway, The King and I bears extra scrutiny. If more diverse works existed, it could be “one of many,” not “the” Asian musical ([51:28]).
• Hammerstein’s Reformist Record:
  • Hammerstein genuinely sought to create opportunities for nonwhite performers, but Broadway did not continue his push after his death; instead, the same stories—King and I, Miss Saigon, M. Butterfly—keep getting revived ([52:06–52:58]).
• On "Diversity as a Checklist":

  “There is no perfect representation. ... there needs to be more, there always…” – Corey ([53:47]).

7. Character Discussion: Anna, the King, Lady Thiang, and Tuptim

• Anna and the King: Unromantic Intimacy
  • Their bond is built on mutual stubbornness and respect, not traditional romance. Matt:

    "[It’s] intimate but not romantic…what they have is a respect of each other’s intelligence and courageousness” ([36:09]).

• Lady Thiang as a Balancing Force:
  • Lady Thiang’s intelligence, eloquence, and capacity to code-switch (choose words wisely in a foreign language) elevate her as a standout character ([41:28], [55:49]).
• Tuptim’s Arc/Limits of Agency:
  • While some critique her subplot as outdated, others defend its nuance; Hammerstein softened her fate from historical sources ([38:52]).
• Child Actors: Both lament the struggles child actors present in live shows ([15:37]).

8. Moments & Songs that Spark Discussion

• Notable Song: “Western People Funny”
  • Often misunderstood as cringey; in fact, it’s Lady Thiang’s satire of British customs and Western imposition. The problem lies more with broad music-hall-style scoring ([61:09]).

    "Why are we doing this? ... we're wearing giant skirts ... Like, that's what … the point is." – Matt ([62:05])

• “The Small House of Uncle Thomas” Ballet:
  • Tuptim stages Uncle Tom’s Cabin as a play within the play–an “East interprets West” moment, staged as a ballet, which is both “bonkers” and “passionate” ([63:24]).

9. Legacy—Revivals, Parody, and the Animated Version

• Global Reach—but Banned in Thailand:
  • Has not been performed in Thailand owing to depiction of the king ([33:35]).
• Animated Version (1999):
  • Wildly altered and deeply questionable adaptation; egregiously racist, with added magical elements and a sea monster defeated by whistling (“It’s just ... terrible.” – Matt, [79:59]).
• Soft Power
  • Corey raves about David Henry Hwang and Jeanine Tesori’s meta-musical (Soft Power) that parodies and critiques The King and I by inverting its premise—Chinese characters “visit” the US, encountering Western absurdities ([71:13–77:18]).

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On the emotional power of the score:

  "It just like inject[s] that right into my veins ... washes over you." – Corey ([11:02])
  "Musicals … your heart always understands even if your head doesn’t." – Matt ([13:27])

• Defining problematic:

  “Problematic technically means like a problem musical... now it's used for shows that people take umbrage with, have issues with, usually on a moral level.” – Matt ([07:53])

• On representation:

  "It's not a checklist, and there is more than two ethnicities." – Matt ([49:41])

• On Hammerstein:

  “He really wanted as many opportunities for nonwhite performers as possible and did his best for what he knew for the 20s, 30s, 40s, and 50s as a ... white hetero man.” – Matt ([52:09])

• On the Anna/King relationship:

  “[Their] respect of each other’s intelligence … and courageousness … are kind of, in a lot of ways, the same person, because they both are stubborn. They both are clouded by their own prejudice.” – Matt ([36:03])

• Corey's summary of the show's arc:

  “...the concept of the whole thing ... the framing in general of the exotic Orientalism of it all … when you dig into it, like you said, there actually is a surprising amount of nuance.” ([19:33])

Timestamps for Important Segments

• [01:18] — Introduction and show selection
• [02:24] — Revival iconography and poster design
• [05:49] — Corey explains the plot
• [07:53] — What does “problematic” mean?
• [10:49] — White saviorism and the ending
• [11:02–13:27] — The power of musical emotion and score
• [19:33] — Orientalism and textual representation
• [24:33] — Broadway’s adaptation tradition
• [30:33] — Real vs. fictional Siam; research and intent
• [36:03–37:21] — Anna and the King’s dynamic
• [41:28–43:42] — Lady Thiang, language, and intelligence
• [51:28] — The scarcity of Asian-centric shows on Broadway
• [61:09–62:56] — “Western People Funny” unpacked
• [63:24] — The Small House of Uncle Thomas ballet
• [71:13–77:18] — Soft Power and meta-critique
• [78:43–83:12] — The notorious 1999 animated adaptation
• [84:12] — Wrapping up and diva-of-the-week

Tone & Style

Both Matt and Corey are passionate, irreverent, and deeply knowledgeable. Expect banter, four-letter words, theatre-nerd sidebars, and strong personal opinions. Despite the laughs, the conversation is rigorous and unflinching when it comes to issues of race, representation, and ethical responsibility in revivals and canon formation.

Conclusion

While The King and I is lauded for its sweeping music and complex central relationship, Matt and Corey agree its legacy is tangled, marked by both pioneering (for its time) attempts at nuance and the real limitations of its framing and authorship. The episode is a must-listen for anyone grappling with loving art that is, by today’s standards, “problematic”—and for those seeking both the pleasures and perils of Broadway history.

Final Diva Request:
Sutton Foster, “for a petty reason,” says Corey ([85:44]).
Matt: "We’ll imagine her singing 'Something Wonderful’—even if that doesn’t exist."