THE PROM w/ Ali Gordon

Summary

Broadway Breakdown: "THE PROM" with Ali Gordon

Date: November 23, 2023
Host: Matt Koplik
Guest: Ali Gordon

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Main Theme & Purpose

This episode kicks off a new Broadway Breakdown series on "problematic" shows—musicals people love to argue about, be it for messy creative execution, controversial themes, or both. Matt and returning guest Ali Gordon dive deep into THE PROM, dissecting its cultural context, writing, cast, queer politics, controversies, and place in modern Broadway, all with characteristic irreverence, personal anecdotes, and plenty of theater-geek candor.

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Episode Structure & Key Sections

• [00:30] Introduction & Series Concept
• [02:15] Defining "Problematic" in Theater
• [05:06] The Real-Life Story Behind THE PROM
• [09:19] Personal Prom Stories & Connections to the Show
• [10:02] Reception: Memories vs. Critical Reality
• [12:06] The Movie Adaptation
• [13:04] Teen Response to THE PROM
• [17:02] Plot Overview ("What's THE PROM Actually About?")
• [18:38] The World of Broadway Satire vs. Indiana Satire
• [26:00] Character Analysis & Role-Creation
• [35:00] Teen Characters: Believability Issues
• [41:00] Side Characters: Fleshing Out Angie, Trent, and the Ensemble
• [44:31] "Love Thy Neighbor" Sequence & Queer Politics
• [60:00] Three Outcomes for Queer Acceptance in the Show
• [77:36] Alyssa Green: Character Critique
• [85:38] Personal Experience & Queer Relationships in Storytelling
• [91:14] The Broadway-to-Movie Casting Controversy
• [99:43] Favorite Songs & Choreography Critique
• [108:03] Messy Morals and the Importance of Gray
• [112:11] Final Verdict: What Makes THE PROM "Problematic"

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Detailed Breakdown & Insights

1. What Makes a Show "Problematic"?

([02:33])

• Matt argues that "problematic" is often misapplied—originally for shows that don’t work structurally (e.g., Candide), now for anything faintly offensive or outdated.
• Quote: “The word problematic is now kind of misused for theater... now it's used for shows that people find slightly offensive or misguided.” —Matt (02:34)

2. Inspiration: Real-Life Story

([05:06])

• THE PROM is inspired by Mississippi teen Constance McMillan, who was banned from bringing her girlfriend to prom. The infamous fake prom switch is based in fact.
• Social media ("Before we knew the internet was forever") amplified the real-life story.

3. Personal High School Prom Anecdotes & Teen Dynamics

([09:19], [08:52])

• Matt and Ali share memories of attending prom together, including how Matt was "the most popular person there because you were, like, cutting up the dance floor" (08:52).

4. Show’s Critical Reception: Mixed Memories

([10:02])

• Matt recalls thinking the show was a critical darling; in reality, reviews were mixed. Times & Variety praised, but many thought it had bumps.

5. The Movie Adaptation: Love It or Leave It

([12:06])

• Released during COVID, the movie had "no footprint" and "didn't really make a mark with teens either." Teens love the stage show, but nobody mentions the movie.

6. Broadway vs. Indiana: Cartoons in Conflict

([18:38], [21:16])

• Both settings lampoon their worlds: jaded Broadway narcissists vs. small-town Indiana as a cartoon "in the negative sense."
• Interesting core: the narcissism of "actors seeking relevancy through other people’s issues" is biting and relevant.

7. Teen Storylines: Flat and Relatable

([16:02], [31:16])

• Critique: The teen ensemble actors “all have 401ks,” with little authenticity, and teens in the show act and talk like adults’ idea of teens.
• The show suffers where adults write Gen Z characters without intimate knowledge of their culture, leading to awkward, unearned earnestness (e.g., YouTube scenes).

8. Two-World Structure: Strength or Liability?

([35:00])

• Quote: “It's so much more interesting to have two worlds combine and fight than to do a fully clown version or the fully earnest version.” —Ali (35:20)
• Some wish the Emma storyline was the main arc; Matt notes that the Broadway adults’ story often upstages it.

9. Main Characters: Standouts and Shortcomings

([26:00])

• Dee Dee Allen (Beth Leavel) and Barry Glickman (Brooks Ashmanskas) are "the most compelling" because they make mistakes and grow.
• Emma (Caitlin Kinnunen) is virtuous but too passive: "She doesn't make mistakes; bad things happen to her."
• Alyssa Green, Emma’s closeted girlfriend, receives both empathy and tough love from the hosts; her story arcs into self-awareness but not without critiques.
• Many characters are “underwritten or just there for a moment” (e.g., Angie).

10. "Love Thy Neighbor": Queer Politics & Plausibility

([44:31])

• The defining number, "Love Thy Neighbor," illustrates the show's optimistic yet overly simplistic view of small-town bigotry and religious hypocrisy.
• Both hosts doubt that real-life teens would immediately, uniformly “turn” after one musical number; the town’s bigotry feels under-explored.
• Quote: "This number feels like... two legs in two different worlds... Did not get programmed out of it so fast." —Ali (45:02)

11. Three Outcomes of Queer Acceptance

([60:00])

• Matt admires that the musical shows:
  • Total rejection (Barry's parents)
  • Partial, uncertain acceptance (Alyssa's mom: "We'll talk tonight")
  • Complete, instant support (Emma's peers)
• Criticism of the movie version for flattening and rushing all conflicts into fairy-tale resolutions, denying queer kids a relatable range of outcomes.
• Quote: "That woman would not make a 180 in two hours... It’s even better, Jack, she’s made a full 360." —Matt (65:42)

12. The Broadway-to-Movie Casting Controversy

([91:14])

• Ryan Murphy’s Netflix film excluded the original cast, hiring stars like Meryl Streep, James Corden, and Nicole Kidman.
• Fans were angry, but Matt points out: "No one cares if Beth Leavel and Brooks Ashmanskas star in a Netflix movie. The world doesn't know who they are.”
• Matt and Ali agree some roles were written so specifically for the actors, it’s debatable whether the performance or the script makes the character shine.

13. Favorite Songs and Choreography

([98:43])

• Both love "Barry’s Going to Prom," calling it beautifully specific and emotionally rich.
• Choreography described as “alien imitation of what teens do at prom.”
• Quote: “It’s like Ariel brushing her hair with the fork. We see how you got there girl.” —Ali (100:48)

14. Messy, Irreverent Tone as Feature, Not Bug

([108:03])

• The show’s humor and irreverence (e.g., off-color jokes) are intentional—characters’ ignorance is the joke, not the author's voice.
• Quote: "Dee Dee Allen’s never met a deaf person. She’s only seen The Miracle Worker." —Ali (109:02)

15. Final Verdict: Is THE PROM Really "Problematic"?

([112:11])

• Not in the social-justice sense, but "problematic" in terms of execution: too many characters, over-explanation, tonal imbalances.
• The show excels when owning its campy side and letting "gray morality" shine.
• "It's problematic in terms of some of its execution in the actual writing" —Matt (112:11)

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On the definition of 'problematic' in theater:
  “It should be reserved for shows that don’t work, don’t gel. Now it just means ‘shows I find offensive.’” —Matt ([02:34])

• On authentic teen voices:
  "It was an ensemble of 35-year-olds playing teenagers in clothes teenagers have never worn… That’s one of my biggest pet peeves." —Ali ([16:02])

• On high school dance floors:
  "You actually needed to share… I would dance with you, and then somebody would, like, cut in and be like, ‘Can I have a turn?’ And you, like, danced with every girl." —Ali ([08:52])

• On Broadway narcissists:
  “Take the work seriously, not yourself… You can always tell when an actor is a full of person… like pornography. You can’t define it, but you know when you see it.” —Matt ([19:07])

• On queerness & coming out stories:
  "It is so hard to come out; you never actually know what's going to happen… Heartstopper, Call Me by Your Name, The Prom movie all give this fantasy where it's instantly okay… But for queer kids, that's not always how it is." —Matt ([66:46])

• On character growth:
  "Most things we do comes from a place of what is right and convenient for me." —Matt ([48:52])

• On the disconnect in movie casting:
  "No one cares if Beth Leavel and Brooks Ashmanskas are starring in a Netflix movie… The world knows who Meryl is." —Matt ([93:09])

• On over-explaining:
  "Almost always it is the fault of producer interference… It is quite a joy to fill in the blanks with your own whatever." —Ali ([57:57])

• On wanting more from Alyssa Green:
  "If we didn't have that (her solo ‘Alyssa Green’), she'd be a quite hateable character." —Ali ([86:58])

• On THE PROM’s place in the canon:
  "We are the teenagers The Prom was written for." —Matt ([26:00])

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Timestamps for Essential Segments

• [02:33] — Defining “problematic” and introducing THE PROM
• [05:06] — The real-life inspiration and prom bait-and-switch
• [13:04] — Teens’ reactions: why they love the show, not the movie
• [17:02] — THE PROM's plot and key characters
• [35:00] — Ensemble depth and two-world structure discussion
• [44:31] — “Love Thy Neighbor,” religion, and believability of small-town reversal
• [60:00] — Three types of queer acceptance outcomes in the show
• [91:14] — Broadway-to-Hollywood casting and fandom uproar
• [99:43] — Favorite numbers, choreography, and emotional moments (climax: “time to build a prom”)
• [108:03] — Messy morals, characters’ bad jokes, and why that’s okay
• [112:11] — Final verdict: messy, but loveable and more “problematic” structurally than politically

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Tone & Style Highlights

True to the host’s reputation, the episode is brash, jargon-filled, and gleefully “inside baseball"—an unapologetic deep dive for and by theater obsessives. Matt and Ali blend personal memories, critical analysis, and irreverent references (Sondheim, Amadeus, Birdcage, Elaine May, etc.), with plentiful sidebars and affectionately crude humor. Both are quick to call out flaws, but always in the spirit of loving Broadway’s messiness as much as its heart.

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For Listeners with No Prior Knowledge

This episode gives an unvarnished education on THE PROM’s place in Broadway and pop culture. You’ll gain understanding of why it’s cherished, why it’s critiqued, and how Broadway’s relationship with TV/film, queerness, and modern “problematic” discourse continues to evolve. You’ll also absorb why loving musical theater means always having complicated feelings about what works, what’s cringe, and what’s worth fighting for.

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Closing Notes

• Podcast ends with shout-outs to the teachers and teens who sing “Alyssa Green,” a cheeky riff on how the musical resonates with young performers.
• The spirit: If you want perfect, look elsewhere. But if you want big-hearted, flawed fun—and to see queer kids win just a little—THE PROM delivers.

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Next up on Broadway Breakdown: A new episode on another “problematic” show—stay tuned!

Transcript

[A]

Sam.

[B]

Hello, all you theater lovers both out and proud and on the DL. And welcome back to Broadway Breakdown, a podcast discussing the history und legacy of American theater's most exclusive address, Broadway. This series is called problematic, covering shows that you're mad at and their possible redemption. I am your host, Matt Koplik, the least famous and most opinionated of all the Broadway podcast hosts. And with me today is podmother of the pod. She's an ally. You know her. You love her. She's ally. Ali. Ali Gordon.

[A]

That was great. Hi.

[B]

Hi, Ali. First of all, thank you for. Stop. Stop it. We have all these cameras.

[A]

It's like, too much responsibility.

[B]

It is. So this is the first time Ali and I have recorded the podcast in the same room since before COVID Yeah, that's true. First time we've done it since there have been cameras in the room. So Ali's very distracted. She keeps fake squeezing my face in front of her camera.

[A]

It's just so easy.

[B]

Yes, well, I've got a very squeezable face. We all know how ador and beautiful I am.

[A]

And you do look great. It's distracting.

[B]

Stop it. No, we're very attractive. Your tits look great today, and they're.

[A]

Behind a little bibs. You can't even tell.

[B]

No, you can tell when your boobs can push overalls out, which is what you're wearing. That's how you know that they're in formation.

[A]

Thank you so much.

[B]

You're very welcome. We're in the right mindset for this episode. So first of all, Ali, welcome back.

[A]

Thanks.

[B]

And everyone, welcome back to Broadway Breakdown. This is very interesting because this is the first episode of this new series we're recording, so. So I'm gonna kind of be getting my sea legs with it, as well as my sea legs just recording in general. I haven't really recorded for real real since June. But you know what we are here to talk about?

[A]

What are we gonna talk about?

[B]

We are here to talk about a musical called the Prom.

[A]

The Prom.

[B]

The Prom. Now, here's the deal. As we are getting our sea legs with this episode, we're also gonna kind of figure out, you know, ways we want to structure future episodes. So it's gonna be a little messy, y', all, and I apologize. But also, I don't apologize, because this is who I am.

[A]

We're figuring it out.

[B]

Yeah. I reached out to the people who listen to this and to the people who follow me on Instagram, and I asked point blank, like, what are shows, plays, or musicals that you find problematic. And why? Because the word problematic is honestly now kind of misused for theater. It should be referring to shows that don't work. Shows like Candide or Mary Lewis. Like, these are problem shows because they'll never totally gel. But now it's used for shows that people find slightly offensive or misguided.

[A]

Yeah. Also, I feel like the word now has been embraced to be like, people too.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Do you know what I mean? Like, it used to be like a show was problematic, but now it'll be like this person. Like, they're really problematic. Do you know what I mean?

[B]

Yeah. And yes. And the thing I want everyone to remember as we delve into these shows, because what I want to talk about, I want to talk about the shows themselves, people's issues with them, and sort of like, see if maybe there's a. A disconnect there, if there's maybe something that isn't fully clicking with someone of what the show's trying to do, if the show maybe actually isn't succeeding so the person is justified with their. But as we go forward, I just want everyone to know most of the writers of these shows politically line up with liberal Democrats. They have very progressive values. Except for, you know, Catherine McPhee's husband, but he didn't write any of these shows. He just wrote, boop, look it up. But, you know, when we go forward with these other shows and talk about sort of the stuff that isn't working or maybe hasn't aged well, it doesn't come from a place of, let's make fun of X ethnicity or X sexuality. Like, it's truly. No one's actually coming from that place. So we all need to remember that when we discuss these shows. And if we have an issue with it, figure out why that issue is there for any of us. Right. But yeah, so we're talking about the Prom, written by Bob Martin and Chad Boguellen with a score by Beguelin and Sklar, based off an idea by Jack Vertel, former artistic director of Encores.

[A]

I did not know that it was based off an idea.

[B]

Oh, yeah.

[A]

So does that just mean they were at dinner one night and he was like, you know, be a good musical. And they're like, now we have to credit you on the poster.

[B]

Well, that's what happened with Annie get your gun. Do you know that? No, I think it's Dorothy Fields, form old female lyricist. She old, very old female lyricist. Yeah, that vagina didn't work anymore. She shat out her uterus.

[A]

Oh, my God.

[B]

I know. Welcome to problematic, y'.

[A]

All. You really start yourself strong.

[B]

No, but Dorothy feels. She. I don't. She called someone up and she was like, I have. I have an idea for a musical. Ethel Merman is Annie Oakley. And just like all of Broadway went, done. Make it happen.

[A]

I mean, yeah.

[B]

And it made us. Annie, get your gun. No. Jack Vertel, he. So there was an article In 2010, a girl named Constance McMillan, who lived in Mississippi, I believe, wanted to take her female date to the school prom. And the school board decided to cancel the prom, and it caused all this media uproar, and they had to do a prom. A lot of events that happened in the musical, the prom actually happened to Constance McMillan, including the fake prom. That whole bait and switch actually happened. Although in real life, they were like, oh, it wasn't a second private prom we didn't talk about. It was a birthday party. It was an end of school year party. But, like, kids were tagging it as the prom on Facebook and then took the photos down because people were like, got you, you dumb teenager. Kids can be very stupid.

[A]

Also, kids at that time did not know how forever the Internet was.

[B]

Yes. The Social Network was just coming out that year. And Rooney Mara famously said, the Internet is not written in pencil, Mark. It's written in ink.

[A]

And we didn't know that before then. We didn't know how cool a billion dollars was.

[B]

We didn't know. Can I just say, I'm so glad that the world has caught up to me since 2010, when King's speech won Best Picture. And I said, we're gonna look back and be very embarrassed by this. And we are.

[A]

There are some people out there who are King's Speech stans, though. Sure. Take that from them.

[B]

There are also people who claim paradise Squ. People have opinions that they're allowed to say disappearing. You're. No, it's fine. I got called a racist for not liking that show. And you are famously. I'm famously a racist. But their reasoning for me being racist was, well, there are black people in it. And I said, that's a fact.

[A]

You have to like it all.

[B]

Yeah. But then I was. I was like, well, you know, that's it. Not to say I've got black friends, but, like, I like. I do adore a strange loop. Have you looked into that show? And it just opened and they're like, I'm aware of it, but I'm so surprised you like that show because it also has black people. Like, I don't like it because it has black people. I like it because it's a wonderful musical.

[A]

Truly wild.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Did you like a Strange Loop? Yes. Black people.

[B]

They were all there. They were all there. You want to know why I don't like Evita? No. Black people.

[A]

Votes for women. They still didn't have it yet. They still don't have it yet.

[B]

There was things. There was.

[A]

So if you like Evita, you must not like when women vote. Think about that.

[B]

Wait, hang on.

[A]

Think on that.

[B]

Ali Gordon. Ali Gordon, for many years, would say she was going to play one role in Evita. Votes for women. Unstoppable Track and a vita.

[A]

She's fierce. She is. That show's end in a bed. Do you know what I mean? It's like, it's the one you really hope your director's gonna be like, al, you can have that one. And you're like, yes.

[B]

Point is, the prom.

[A]

The prom. How was your prom experience?

[B]

I had a few proms, actually.

[A]

What was the best one?

[B]

The one where I got invited by my dear, dear friend Ali Gordon.

[A]

Oh, wow. How was that?

[B]

Ali Gordon went to Birchwath and Lenox.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

And junior year asked if I would be her D. I was. And we have a bunch of wonderful photos on your rooftop that your lovely mother took for us. My favorite motivation she gave us when she took our photo was, look at each other like you like each other.

[A]

And she was onto something.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

She was like, okay, can I not see hate in the eyes?

[B]

No. I think she wanted it to be like, okay, can you look like you guys might explore each other's bodies later?

[A]

But, like, in a Spring Awakening way.

[B]

Yeah, exactly.

[A]

In a deeply misguided way that you're not like.

[B]

And your father was just like, oh, God, these two are hopeless. It was a wonderful time. We had a great time.

[A]

We had a great time. Was actually saying this before we started that everybody I know that I brought, like, their boyfriends to prom. They spent the whole night being like. They're all just, like, sneaking outside and talking. Nobody's dancing with me. And you were the most popular person there because you were, like, cutting up the dance floor. And so, like, you actually, like, needed to, like, share. Like, I would dance with you, and then somebody would, like, cut in and be like, can I have a turn? And you, like, dance with, like, every girl.

[B]

I have no memory of that. I have memories of dancing with you.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

Only you. I have memories then of us also going to, like, a midnight screening of Shrek 3 where I fell asleep.

[A]

We both Fell asleep.

[B]

We both fell asleep, like, 10 minutes in. That was our night. That was our prom. That was. That was your prom? My prom.

[A]

Sorry. That was my prom.

[B]

That was your prom?

[A]

You don't get. You don't claim that one.

[B]

No, it wasn't my school. I had two proms at my own school. So, Ali, what was your exposure to the prom? How did you.

[A]

I saw the Prom on Broadway. My Aunt Wendy was coming into town. Have you met my Aunt Wendy? She's my. My dad's sister. She sort of has, like, a Hogwarts professor vibe.

[B]

I've met pretty much everyone in your family at some point.

[A]

Yeah. So my was coming into town. She wanted to take my brother and I to see a show. The last time she had done that, we saw Young Frankenstein. And she was like, that was fun. Let's do something funny. And I was like, okay. And so I was, like, looking at, like, what was open on Broadway, and I was like, oh, the prom, it's brand new. It's not based on source material. That'd be fun. And it'll be funny and moving and touching, and we'll have a good time. So we all went to go see the prom. And on the way out, her quote was, so people who like musicals, do they like things like that? So I don't think she liked it.

[B]

I saw the Prom pretty soon after it opened. I had read the boards and the reviews came out. And I also want to. As we go into this, I will also talk about sort of how weird memory is, as we just learned, because my memory of how the show was originally received is very different from what it actually was. We'll discuss. It's nothing, like, crazy, but it's like, I remember this being sort of a critic starling that struggled and, like, made it to the Tonys and then closed pretty soon after that. It wasn't universally praised by critics. The Times loved it, Admitted that, like, it had bumps, but, like, overall, I was like, this is a really fascinatingly good musical. And then it had a couple other positive reviews, but there were a lot of mixed reviews.

[A]

And I remember mostly mixed.

[B]

Yeah, Variety was positive. Times was positive. I want to say Vulture was positive.

[A]

I also remember a lot of, like, rave performances. Sorry, Rave reviews for performances.

[B]

Everyone was pretty much on board that Brooks Ashmanskas and Beth Leavel were, like, tearing it up and then. But that was where everyone was sort of in agreement. And then there was other people were conflicted about other performances and other elements of the show, which we will talk about. But I had heard of the prom originally because Ms. Caitlin Kinnan and friend of mine and friend of the pod, she had been on this podcast back in the 1.0 era when it was me and Ms. Wiscavage.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And the Prom had. It was in between the Prom at the alliance in Atlanta and the Prom on Broadway. They had announced it was coming to Broadway, but they like announced a year in advance.

[A]

Yes. I also know Caitlyn did something at Weston a summer that I was there. That's how we met also, like years ago.

[B]

Was it the Pregnancy Pack musical? Yeah, she talked about that, but so she talked about sort of her experience auditioning and doing it out of town, but it hadn't come to Broadway yet. So I was prepared for it. I took my grandmother, who will be turning 100 this January, and we went. And I'll never forget, at intermission she turned to me, she goes, you were laughing a lot. And I said, it's funny.

[A]

She said, I don't agree.

[B]

Yeah, it was her way.

[A]

That's kind of what my aunt said. So people who like musicals, they like this.

[B]

Yes, exactly. But then I just remember finding it so charming. And of course then there was the movie situation, which I'll also talk about a little bit.

[A]

Yeah. Oh, I sort of blocked that from my memory.

[B]

So I watched.

[A]

That was sort of like a Covid watch.

[B]

Yeah. Because they filmed it right before COVID and then they had to shut down and did like two more days height of COVID and then it came out like that November, December of 2020. Yeah, it was. It. Yeah, it was a Covid watch for sure. And now it has pretty much no footprint.

[A]

Yeah, it didn't really make a mark with teens either.

[B]

It's not good, first of all.

[A]

But like I.

[B]

It should, it should make a mark with teens because it's about teenagers.

[A]

Right. And my re examining of the Prom also was that I saw the show and I felt okay about it. That was sort of how I felt. I was. I was like, I'm glad I saw that. I certainly am not like wasted two hours at the theater tonight. I didn't like lose my mind. And now as I've. As I've gotten older and my job, so many hours a week is engaging with teenagers and just like finding out what they like and what they want to sing and what they think is funny or relevant. A lot of teenagers really like the Prom.

[B]

Yeah. Well, anything again, but they don't like the movie.

[A]

No one's ever mentioned the movie to me. Not ever.

[B]

Once Anything about teens in musical theater teens gravitate towards. I don't know though, it's. No, it's true. I mean, maybe not anything but a lot. Because you have the prom. You've got be more chill, dear. Evan Hansen. Heather's Bring It On Mean Girls. I said be Merchant, right?

[A]

Yes. I'm trying to think of examples of shows like, about teenagers where like, they're just like, not for me.

[B]

Bye Bye Birdie.

[A]

Yeah, they don't like that.

[B]

But like anything in the last 20 years, you know, there's a. There's a passionate fan base of teenagers for it.

[A]

Not Kimberly Akimbo.

[B]

Do teenagers not like Kimberly Akimbo?

[A]

Not like in a way where it's like, I know every word of the soundtrack you want.

[B]

I'm gonna. I'm gonna sound really mean spirited and get off my lawn. You want to know why?

[A]

Why?

[B]

Cuz there's no high belting wailing in it.

[A]

And also like the lead is not a teenager.

[B]

Yeah, it's. It's. Kimberly Akimbo is a far more complicated teenager musical than most teens want. Unless they're us. Because Ali Gordon and I were the kind of teenagers who we bonded because we were the only ones we knew at our age who loved Amadeus. Start to feel finish.

[A]

I mean a perfect film.

[B]

Literally.

[A]

Oh my God. I F. Murray Abraham held the door for us.

[B]

Really?

[A]

Yes. We were going to open jar and Marty had a bunch of film equipment with him. And from behind us we heard a voice that was like, here, let me get that for you. And it was F. Marie Abraham and I, we grew up in New York City. How many times have you seen a celebrity in New York City? How many times has it registered at all? Zero.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

We both like, we got in the elevator with him and then like as he stepped off, we were like, I.

[B]

Know.

[A]

It was really special.

[B]

Yeah. Well, I mean, to the extent that Ali and I, our nicknames for each other turning maybe our nicknames for each other in high school and which we don't really do anymore. But in high school our nicknames for each other were Vulfie and Stanzi.

[A]

Because of my perfect tits.

[B]

Because your perfect tits and my high pitched laugh. Neither one of us was Katarina, but we would always quote Katarina, aka Ms. Christine Ebersole. It's Turkish. My hairdresser says everything this year is going to be Turkish. But that's the kind of faggy kids we were. So like, we would have seen Kimberly.

[A]

Akimbo been like, I am Kimberly. Yeah.

[B]

I'm like, yes. I'm. I'm. I'm. I am Kimberly Lavaco. Absolutely.

[A]

Absolutely.

[B]

We would have, like, understand the nuance and the complexity. Like, I'm all for kids getting into theater young and, like, liking whatever they like because as you get older, your tastes develop. But, like, there is a little something to be said when it's, you know, be more chill and mean girls. And Heather's. And Heather's will be covered on this podcast at one point where it's a little surface level of just like, it's hard to be a teen and teenagers, like, it is.

[A]

I guess this has a slightly more. I mean, a lot of the teenage characters in this are some of the worst written, like, of all time. Sorry, but for the main characters, they're experiencing something a little deeper than it's so hard to be a teenager.

[B]

Yeah. We'll talk about Emma and Alyssa in particular, because, yeah, the ensemble of teens are incredibly poorly written.

[A]

And also, when I saw it, this is part of what made me feel not so enthusiastic about it, is that it was an ensemble of 35 year olds playing teenagers in, like, clothes teenagers have never worn, being like. And what would you know about that, sir? And I was like, I gotta go. Like, I. That's like one of my biggest pet peeves of all time.

[B]

I'm like, you all have 401ks.

[A]

Oh, I really hate it so much.

[B]

I know. Before we go into what the prom is about, let's take a quick break.

[A]

Oh, Billy, I beg to differ with you.

[B]

How do you mean? You're the top.

[A]

Yeah, you're an arrow collar. You're the top. You're a cool dollar. You're the nimble.

[B]

And we're back.

[A]

Oh, my gosh, Ellie, so much happened.

[B]

Well, you. You've been on the pot since I got it on a network. I have to do breaks now.

[A]

Okay. Yeah, I, for a minute thought we were going to, like, go someplace place.

[B]

We did. We did. Do you not remember any of that emotionally and sexually?

[A]

Yeah, yeah, my eyes are open.

[B]

My point is, the prom. What is she about?

[A]

Okay, the prom is about a group of actors living in New York City who are looking for something to make them important again because their careers are failing them. And coincidentally, they find a news article about a girl who has been denied a promotion in the middle of Indiana because she wanted to bring her female partner. And they said, since we can't cancel, we can't exclude her and say, no, we have to cancel prom entirely. And they're like, oh, that's it. It's an easy social issue we can get behind, and we agree with it. We don't have to understand the complexities of the electoral college in order to do it. We're gonna go to Indiana and make a big stink and have these kids put this prom back on. And people back in New York will see that we're more than aging narcissists, and they'll see that we are actually important people who are important actors who care subsequently. Yes, exactly. Who care.

[B]

Yeah. The opening song is called Changing Lives.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

And it's following Dee Dee Allen and Barry Glickman, AKA Beth Leavel and Brooks Ashmanskas, the opening night of their new musical, Eleanor, with an exclamation point, the Eleanor Roosevelt musical. And it's, you know, very high energy, Broadway camp, intentionally so. And it sets a tone that I don't think that the promise maintains. I think it. What the prom tries to do is it tries to start campy and then, like, eventually melt into earnestness.

[A]

Yeah. I actually wrote down a couple of, like, the jokes and lyrics from the beginning of the show, which I wrote down because I like them.

[B]

First of all, I think that the Prom is incredibly funny. There are jokes that are fantastic, and I think there are some lyrics that are great.

[A]

Some really great lyrics.

[B]

Chad Boguellen, I do think, is a good lyricist. I think he's not as good at earnestness, although I think this is his best. Best show yet at that.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

But he does, like, campy, cheeky dad joke lyrics really well.

[A]

But, yeah, it also means this tour de force will not be forced to tour also when they're getting the bad reviews. And Dee Dee goes, what? What didn't they like? Was it the hip hop? Like, I'm like, oh, this. It really does set up a world. And it sets up, like a version of this, like, fake New York with these fake Broadway actors that, like, I really believe and, like.

[B]

Yeah, well, so the what I. And this is another thing with the prom that I'm like, kind of half and half about. I love when works skewer a little bit the world that it knows. Right. It's like, it's. It is skewering a lot of the problem. Does skewer the idea of the Broadway actor of. Of an artist in general who take themselves very seriously. I've always said, like, take the work seriously, not yourself. You know, we. We do this because we love it. We do care. Care. But also, I think, like, you always need to have one foot out of. Out in reality, of just, like, how big the world is and what other people are about. And you can make an impact. What, What? You can make something that lasts, but like, you can. You can always tell when an actor is a full of person, like pornography. You don't. You can't define it, but you know.

[A]

It when you see it.

[B]

Exactly. And you and I, and I have met a lot of people. We have been friends with a lot of people who like, are not necessarily bad people objectively. Like, they don't go out and murder, but they are kind of shitty.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And even if. Even if their politics line up with mine, I'm like, yeah, no, I'm glad, you know, you voted for so and so. And you agree that like, I should have rights and your body should be your own, but, like, you are kind of a piece of.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

It's always the person who's like, oh, the power to move.

[A]

The power to move.

[B]

The power to move theater. The impact that it can have. And I'm like, yeah, but do you have to say it like that?

[A]

Yeah, I mean, I like that that is the characters we are introduced to. And I think that them being narcissists looking for a way back into relevancy and using politics and it's like social currency as a way to get back in actually feels like really real and maybe actually prescient for the time that it was on Broadway. I think it's of kind gotten worse. So, like, I do think they've kind of nailed something.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

It's just that, like, I think they understand and understandably they understand the aging narcissists of New York better than they understand Indiana. And that when we get to Indiana, Indiana feels like a cartoon.

[B]

I also. But I also think that kind of the Broadway stuff feels like a cartoon.

[A]

Cartoon, positive connotation, cartoon, negative connotation. Do you know what I mean by.

[B]

That and what I mean by Broadway? Broadway cartoon is the Broadway that they're making fun of thematically is still relevant. The narcissism and all that. The way that Martin and Beguelin write about the careers and financial success of Dee Dee and Barry and all that, like, it's a little old school. Like, Dee Dee is essentially an Ethel Merman type or like Patti LuPone type.

[A]

With a 2 million dollar house in the Hamptons.

[B]

Exactly. With like, with. With no money issues whatsoever. She's very rich and she's very famous. Or at least the show is also very unclear of like, exactly what famous means with Dee Dee. Like, you know, is she only very famous in Broadway circles? Does she actually have an outreach. Is there a reason that she has this high opinion of herself? Because the joke is they go to Indiana. Like, no one except for the one Broadway loving person knows her.

[A]

Right. Is she Barbra Streisand famous, or is she like, level famous or.

[B]

Yeah, or like Patti Lupone in the early 2000s famous. Like pre. Between Noises off and Gypsy Pat Lupone where it's like, no, a lot of people still know you, but, like, you had a really big high and you're gonna have another really big high. You're sort of in that valley area. Because let me. Let's be very clear. Even if you're a successful Broadway actor with two Tony Awards, that doesn't mean you have millions of dollars. Some people do, but very rare occasions. And there's a reason for that. Like, either you have done a lot of film and tv or you got a Broadway contract that was so lucrative that you, you milk dry for many years. There is a specific actor who I won't say but like, led a national tour for a year and a half of a very successful show, also did it on Broadway for a little while, ended up making like a couple of million dollars out of it and. And wisely spent it on certain pieces of real estate. So, like, certain financial complications aren't a reality for them anymore. They don't need that.

[A]

Or honestly, I know people who opened successful shows overseas and got a really good contract to be the first cast of it. And also just like, all the travel expenses and da, da, da. That goes with like, being like, you have to go live in blah, blah, blah for two and a half years. Yeah, same thing. You can make good money from that. Yeah, but you're not famous from that. You know what I'm saying? Nobody's like, oh, my God, were you blah, blah, blah in London?

[B]

Actually. So wait, there was a, there was a Broadway World thread at one point, like a year or two after Next to Normal was on Broadway. Broadway. And it was, I saw Alice Ripley on the subway. Is she not rich? And everyone was just like, what?

[A]

Well, we all take the subway, dear.

[B]

Yeah, Sarah Jessica Parker takes the subway.

[A]

Seen her all the time.

[B]

Yeah. But also, but also the idea, I think they had this idea of, I think how the prom wants us to sort of think of Dee Dee of like, well, yes, she won her Tony, she won two. And thus, like, the money she make. And it's like, this is not the 1950s where, like, the star could make the large chunk of the box office every week.

[A]

She also has A rich, successful husband who she might have made a good amount of money in a divorce settlement.

[B]

That is what I would think, except they make it a point that he's the one bleeding her dry. And I'm like, you are right. And I'm like, how is that the reality?

[A]

But maybe he's bleeding her dry in a vindictive way. And not in a way that's. That he requires her finances. Like, him wanting the house is not about. Like, I'm gonna take that house and resell it. Cause I need to a million dollars. It's just being like, I don't want you to have the finance.

[B]

That apart, I get him, like, him being vindictive, I totally get. What I don't get is, like, how is it that he's the one with a talk show with, you know, average of 16 to 20 million viewers every day? And yet, like, a judge would be like, oh, no. But of course, take. You get alimony from the Broadway actress.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

Like, I'd Even. Even if it's a totally sex. Sexist judge. Even if it's a totally sexist judge, there's no way you look at those finances and go, like, clearly, you're the one who now needs it.

[A]

Unless she's like, mega, mega famous. And even if she doesn't have money right now, they're like, you will someday, because you are a list.

[B]

And she's. And she's the one who's like, and I bought the Hamptons house because I had to book all these Broadway cruises for it. And also, like. And cruises are good money. Like, but they're not the kind of money where, like, I don't. She'd have to do a lot over five years to buy a $2.5 million Hamptons house also. What? Hamptons house is $2.5 million.

[A]

Not anymore.

[B]

Yeah, she bought maybe back in the.

[A]

Maybe she bought it in the 80s.

[B]

She probably bought in the 80s.

[A]

Maybe she bought in the 80s.

[B]

I don't think there were Broadway cruises in the 80s, though. I think she was. I think she was doing the Beth houses.

[A]

The what?

[B]

The bath houses. I was trying to say that, like, oh, hello.

[A]

I was like, who's Beth houses? I was like, beth. Like, Beth Fowler. I know her. Who's that?

[B]

Wait, do you know Beth Fowler?

[A]

Not personally. I wish.

[B]

I got very excited for a second.

[A]

Let's bring her in. Let's talk Sweeney. Yeah.

[B]

I would say the first real belting. Mrs. Levitt.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

Because there's Dorothy Loudon, who's, like, belting.

[A]

Screaming See, now, this is what we were talking about as 13 year olds. I need people understand that.

[B]

Yeah. This is. This is. We are. We are the teenagers that the prom was written for. To be perfectly honest.

[A]

100%.

[B]

Yeah. Also, like, I do think in. In 15 years, you and I should do this show as Barry and Dee Dee.

[A]

I would love that.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Their material is all the best material.

[B]

It is.

[A]

I actually think. Just because I haven't said anything shiningly positive about it yet. I remember seeing Barry's going to prom on stage and being like, it's one of the best numbers I've seen in years.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And I really do mean that. Like, I went and re. Watched it preparing for this and felt all the same emotions I felt the first time. I thought it was, like, fantastically written, beautifully acted, really specific to one character and one character's journey. This song is not about, like, gay people should go to prom. It's not about a thing. It's about one person's experience. And so it's, like, really beautiful. And also, like, in the staging, too. It's so funny that he kind of does music in the mirror for like 25 seconds, then he goes and eats a bag of chips. It's like. Brilliant.

[B]

Yeah, brilliant. Brilliant. I have one controversial thing to say.

[A]

You don't like it as much as I do.

[B]

No, no. I do like the song. Watching Brooks do it is wonderful. I watched the. The Boot again of the final performance, which it's. I'm glad I. We have something to watch it to know the show. I wish that audience was less awful.

[A]

You mean just like screaming?

[B]

It's screaming at every.

[A]

Yeah, it's a closing night performance.

[B]

I know.

[A]

I was there for Closing Night at a Sweeney in like, 2005, and we were. We were screaming like that.

[B]

To be clear. Like, the audience is being respectful in terms, like, they're not shouting through throughout all the scenes. They're. They more sort of. You know, they'll shout at certain references. Like the first time they say the title. The lady's improving in Act 1, everyone screams in recognition, but usually they reserve it for numbers, which I get. Like, that's what it was at the final performance, the title of the show. We waited till the number was over and we applauded like crazy people. But it is a little. Whatever. My. My controversial thing is, while the movie is not good, I do think the soundtrack is really good.

[A]

I think, like, the production on the.

[B]

Soundtrack, like, I think everyone's everyone. But Nicole Kidman sounds really good vocally on It. I think Meryl sounds fire on it. And there are people who like to believe that Beth did some audio sweetening. She did not. If you listen to it, there's not. You can't hear a trace of Beth in there.

[A]

I've never heard that.

[B]

It's all. It's all Meryl. And we'll talk about James in a bit. Like, vocally, I really love James Corden's performance of Barry's Going to Promise Mom. You want to know why?

[A]

Sorry, my face.

[B]

I know I'm only talking vocally.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

I don't like. I hate the man. I don't like him much as an actor anymore.

[A]

Okay, but you love his voice because.

[B]

He goes up at the end of the song. Because instead of going, look at me, Mom. Barry's going to prom. He goes, barry's going to prom. And I love it. It's more musically fulfilling for me. And I'm not someone who likes option ups in general. It's. It just sounds more exciting. It's also the only number vocally where I'm like, yes, work James. Because he doesn't sound good at into the Woods. But I also think it's because he's a tenor, and he's, like, trying to hit these low.

[A]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[B]

Baritone notes. Something to look forward to with the new Sweeney, y'.

[A]

All. But if we start talking about it, we'll never.

[B]

We're not. We're not talking. We're not talking about Hot Topic. Todd, which you don't like that name because you think that Hot Topic is even more edgy. Edgy than the production.

[A]

I remember when I was a teenager, there was a Hot Topic in a mall, and I remember thinking that those kids, like, understood something that I didn't. And I certainly don't feel that way when I see Sweeney Todd. I'm like, you. You understand everything. I understand.

[B]

You want to know where there's not a Hot Topic in Indiana, or at least in the proms version of Indiana.

[A]

But Emma might work there for fun, I don't think.

[B]

Emma doesn't have a job. She's got a guitar and a dream.

[A]

Yeah. And YouTube and.

[B]

And, sorry, YouTube, you say?

[A]

This is another thing that is not even, like, the fault of the prom. But it is. I think it is a lesson we all need to learn as writers. Let's all learn this. If you're gonna mention anything that we are currently using as a method of reaching out to people or TikTok or YouTube or even, like, Dear Evan Hansen, when his thing went viral, the thing will be aged by the time you put it on stage for the first time. It will not be relevant. Relevant even when you are doing it in its first reading, which is fine, because that's just going to be how the way, the way the world works and we need to stop.

[B]

Well, so I will actually say I do think that the prom is solid about this sometimes because something like YouTube is not done as a punchline. It's done just like, as a means.

[A]

To a. I don't even mean as a punchline.

[B]

I don't think it. Because I don't think it necessarily will age poorly if you, if it's part of, like, a plot device. As long as, like, there's an explanation of how something's working when it's used as a joke. Like, Legally Blonde has a lot of product placement jokes that aged very poorly. Not because it's like, ooh, cringe. But more sort of like, no one uses that anymore. No one says that anymore. Like, the Richard Simmons is our neighbor keeps on getting rewritten. Yeah, shit like that.

[A]

I just mean more like even with, like, dear Evan Hansen, which I saw very early on in its run when, like, his video, like, went viral and then, like, newscasters were being, being like, you must see this video of this boy reaching out in his best. In his own words.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

I was like, this isn't real. This is happen. I, I, and I thought that happens.

[B]

Not on, like, prime time tv, but, like, you know, local news channels bring it up like the water skiing squirrel. There's always, people are always trying to get views on anything. So if something's going viral, they'll talk about it.

[A]

Yeah, but it, but in the show, it doesn't feel like this is a local newscaster that feels like this is national news.

[B]

We have to, we have to put a pin in Evan Hansen because that is an episode for another day.

[A]

Sure. But this, to me, has the Evan Hansen disease, because again, it's not that I don't believe a girl would put a song on YouTube, but the way that they have the teenagers reacting to it, which is that they're like sort of like responding to it with extreme earnestness.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

I was like, oh, a teenager's never done that in their life.

[B]

Well, the, there is a, this is, again, this is sort of the problem when you have people who are not the ages of the people that they're writing about, of the time period that they're writing about, where it's like there is always going to be a falseness about it, even if it's coming from a good, intentional place, you know, something like Heather's, which we'll talk about on another episode. Like, first of all, Heather is based off of a movie which was very culturally potent when it came out, but the writers of the musical version of Heather's and I have my issues with it, but, like. Like, they're writing about teenagers in a time when they were teenagers so they can hearken back to it. And it's also done in a very heightened way. So it's not necessarily about, like, oh, that's realistic. Because, like, you know, most of the audience weren't teenagers in the 80s, so they can't say what was or what wasn't. When, you know, 50 year olds are writing about Gen Z, there's a disconnect. What kind of the moment we're talking about for anyone who lives under a rock. Sorry. I like to call the people who listen to this podcast uncultured.

[A]

Okay, so let's. Let's bring it out for the uncultured.

[B]

The uncultured. In Act 2, Emma, our lesbian, she our lesbian. Our lesbian. She's ours, not yours. Our lesbian, she decides she wants to take control of her own narrative finally. And while she has softened to the Broadway actors and the Broadway actors, their narcissism has toned down a lot. She's decided it's ultimately up to her to kind of vouch for herself. So she goes on YouTube and sings this song that she wrote called Unruly Heart, which is a very lovely song. I don't get verklemped by all the kids coming out talking about how much it means to them. I actually get verklempt at the finale. But I'll talk about that in a second.

[A]

The finale of that song or like the finale of the show.

[B]

Of the show.

[A]

Okay. Because I was gonna say that that one was a tearjerker moment.

[B]

Unruly Heart doesn't make me cry. It's made.

[A]

I think it's a really beautiful song.

[B]

I know a lot of people who it did make cry when those kids came out and sang in giant harmony. I'm like, yeah, you know what? It worked. Things work for everybody. It's not that moment where I'm like calling shenanigans. It's the scene afterwards where the Broadway actors and the principal. I don't remember the principal's name, but Hawkins. Okay, great. I just. I keep calling him Michael Potts because that's who played it on Broadway when.

[A]

Michael Potts was watching it.

[B]

Michael Potts was watching it. And they're talking about like, oh, it already has like almost 8 million views in less than 24 hours, which is, you know, that's viral. But when they say, like, oh, what's the impact it's having? And Michael Potts is like, you can definitely tell that a tide is turning in the town. And I'm like, I don't buy that. I don't buy that. And that's something that I want to talk about. Not just teen wise, but like there is. I have a double edged sword about a part of this show. Something that I do really love and then something that I do call little shenanigans about. But I to put a pin in that for later.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

And it's about the queer element of this story.

[A]

Cool.

[B]

Because one of the things that was brought up to me by people who said, here's something I don't like about the prom, while you and I enjoy the Broadway actor stuff and the earnestness of the teen stuff and like, it's so fascinating how they're like kind of trying to combine the two. Because that was something that was from the get go that like got Jack Vertel to get Casey Nicholaw and the whole team on board because Casey Nicholas was working on an encores thing with Jack Vertel. Might have been anyone can whistle, I don't know. But I think they also had. He had just done Elf with that team of Martin Boguellen and Sklar. Silver Tulle was like, how about this idea of, you know, Broadway narcissists coming onto a town for this prom thing? And they're like, love it. We'll do it. We love the idea of the Broadway actors and the teens. That is something that a lot of people actually have issues with.

[A]

Really.

[B]

Because I think everyone, a lot of people have opinions of like, which is the better storyline.

[A]

Yeah. Yes.

[B]

And which one they wish had more time.

[A]

I feel that.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

I admire genuinely. I'm really trying to think about this from like a writerly perspective. Writerly is so not a word. But as a writer, I say it is.

[B]

You're a woman, Allie. People know you don't know many words.

[A]

But as a. It's so much more interesting to have two worlds combine and fight and have to duke it out and see if they can coexist than it is to do a fully clown version of it or it is to do the fully earnest. It's just taking place in Indiana and let's just see these kids react. It is so much more fun and so much more Unique and so much more to the strengths of these writers to be like, let's see what happens when they combine. I do understand the craving of one side of it more than the other, though.

[B]

Yes, I agree. I think that the role of Emma would be less interesting with the. Without the Broadway actors there as foils to her. She would be too sad, sacky, and not fun or interesting enough. And I don't need my leads to, like, all be wisecracky. But, like, I, I. I crave facets. I crave my. My roles to have complexity and dimensions to them. Anyone who's just, like, perfect, making no mistakes, that's the other thing. Emma doesn't really make any mistakes in this show. Things. A lot of bad things happen to her. Her. Yeah. And she never.

[A]

She has, like, Tumi disease. And that's not. Again, that's not like, a actor thing. That is a writing thing where it's like, she's the sad sack that things happen to, and a lot of people rally around her. And even in the moments where she's sort of standing up for herself and being like, you had an opportunity to come out and, like, kiss me in that moment, and you didn't. So you.

[B]

Yeah. Emma's arc, she. She grows not through any mistakes she has made. It's more just sort of. She finally rises to an opportunity that's been given to her. And on paper, I do like the idea of, you know, not every hero is exceptional. Sometimes you become the hero of a story because you have to be.

[A]

Yes. Which I actually do think they do a good job of multiple times. Emma being like, I just want to go to prom. What is so exceptional? Or crazy about being a teenager who wants to go to their own prom?

[B]

Yeah. Again, I just. I love. And it's more my personal thing. I. I'm drawn to characters that do make mistakes. I've talked about this many times. It's why Ariel is my favorite Disney princess. She's the only one that makes mistakes and learns from them. It's. You know, I'm reviewing Carousel after we record this episode. Like, talk about a show where all the characters are making a bunch of mistakes. And that's the point of the writers. Right. A lot of times people will make a point of criticizing a show or a character by saying, I don't know. They did that thing, and that was really problematic. Problematic. And I go, yeah, yeah, they're dumb. That's.

[A]

Or like, that's let them live.

[B]

That's the point. Right. Like, all stories are someone making bad choices 95 of the time, realizing that mistake and growing and being better right down the line. That's sort of the arc of Dee Dee and Barry.

[A]

Yeah. Which is why they are the most compelling characters in the show.

[B]

Exactly. Exactly. There. There are bumps along the way as well, though, and. And I. I do want to talk about the cast as well, because that's also very important. But people, again, people have many different takes. A lot of people personally felt that, like, the Emma storyline really should be the A storyline, and it feels more like it's the B storyline. And I think that is true. I think, you know what we were saying, you know, the fact that she doesn't really ever make mistakes, that it's a lot of things happening to her that makes it feel less balanced than it probably should be. If she were. If she had a couple of more edges to her, if Alyssa had a few more edges to her there. When you watch the video of Caitlyn and Izzy, Michaela doing it, like, they're. They are selling it in a way that I don't necessarily think is on the page. They're. Especially their connection.

[A]

Yeah. They had really good, sweet chemistry.

[B]

Exactly. Like I buy them as a couple, even if the show never gives us a reason to do so.

[A]

It's also a weird thing that, like, when you meet two people, people who are like, shh. Don't talk about what? We don't talk about our relationship. It's like, well, how am I supposed to learn about your relationship if we. If we're never allowed to talk about it? If it's secret?

[B]

Yeah. I mean, we see. We see the sweetness. We see that they care for each other and all that, but we don't ever see, like, why they fell for each other, how any of that happened. And I do want to talk about Alyssa Green.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

As a character in a minute. And it might just be because of my own personal experiences from the last year, but I soured a little bit. Bit on her. Not be. If it weren't for Izzy, Michaela, I might have soured on her completely.

[A]

Right.

[B]

But she's. The way that Izzy plays it makes me find it compelling. But I was reading, and I was like, oh, I have new thoughts about you. Ultimately, she does do the right thing, and I think that's what's important. But, like, for most of Acts one and a half of act two, I'm like, I have sour thoughts on you, Alyssa Green.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Not helped by when I watched the first 30 minutes of the movie again, and it was Ms. Ariana, the Bose playing green. Yeah, yeah. Talk about someone the show's written about. If we're talking about, you know, problem Broadway people. She's not nice. Everyone knows she's not nice. It's very known. She. She wasn't nice during summer and she wasn't nice during Hamilton or Rochdale.

[A]

And I was like. I was like, what summer? What summer?

[B]

Oh, this summer. Summer night.

[A]

Summer.

[B]

Summer 1972.

[A]

Oh, okay. @ the Manor.

[B]

At the Manor with you and me playing Jessica Hecht and Laura Linney, whatever their roles names were.

[A]

We'd be so good.

[B]

We would be so good.

[A]

Who do you see yourself as?

[B]

Let's true west this baby.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Off and on every night.

[A]

That's really fun.

[B]

Yeah, Back and forth. Who would you want? You'd want to be hexed, right? Yeah. With a gay husband.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

That feels right.

[B]

Fine. I'll be Laura. Lenny. Jesus Christ. You know, shove a gun up my butt. But so that, yeah, that was sort of an issue that people had, was like, the imbalance. I think the other problem that the show has, which I've seen now many times, is the fact that there are just so many characters and a lot of people get the shaft. They'll get a moment to shine, but their arcs make no sense anymore or they don't have an arc. The role of Angie really is kind of.

[A]

She's there to sing her fun song at the top of Act 2.

[B]

Yes. She's got zaz, but that's it. She's. I mean, she got moments also.

[A]

Again, I love that number.

[B]

It's a good number.

[A]

And, like, I always kind of forget it's coming where it comes in the show comes. So I didn't remember that. Basically, like, opens act two, kind of. Yeah. And so, like, act two starts in such, like, a bummer place. And it's like, it starts with talking. And I was like, what's happening here? And then suddenly she's like, surprised. I've actually got a great number for you and has some of the best.

[B]

Starts with talking.

[A]

Starts with talking. But you know what I mean? It's like it's them recapping what happened in Act 1, which is one of my big pet peeves, you know what I mean?

[B]

They're not necessarily recapping. They're explaining what happened to the end of act one. Yeah, no, I, I, I know what you mean. It's rather than a welcome Back to the Bathroom number, it's a welcome Back to the Bathroom recap.

[A]

Yeah. And, like, everybody leaves. And then I so that line of dialogue where she's like. And she tells, like, that bullshit story about Roxy Art or whatever.

[B]

Yeah, yeah, that story. That's not true.

[A]

Right. But also, like, I love that she's like, and was that you? And she was like, was that me? That was in 1975. How old the do you think I am? Like, that's such a. Like, oh, my God.

[B]

It's a great line. It's a line and a line that Angie Schwar nails that Nicole Kidman does not.

[A]

Well, Nicole Kidman also couldn't straighten her.

[B]

Leg, nor could she do Fosse arms. Her entrance. Her entrance, where she's trying to do the rich man's frug. Fosse arms. And she's literally just taking her wrists and going side to side. It's car wash. She's doing car wash.

[A]

It's just tough because I don't necessarily need people in movies to be the world's greatest dancer, but if your character's description is the best dancer on Broadway but hasn't gotten a break. Yeah, you're gonna have to dance.

[B]

Well. Okay, so this is. I've already. I've said my piece, which is basically, you know, too many characters. Therefore, a lot of people don't get full, clear arcs, and thus there's room for criticism, or there's opportunities for people to come in and go, I don't like it. One thing that somebody wrote when I was like, what are things you want us to talk about? They're like, can you talk about how a lot of these characters basically are. Are the people who originated them? Because that then also ties to the movie and how furious fans were that no one from the show was given the opportunity to do the movie.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Which. Which is a whole conversation we will have. It's a. It's a con. It's a short conversation, but it's a whole conversation. Obviously, the roles of Deedee Allen, Barry Glickman, Trent, whatever his last name is, and Angie, who I don't even think has the last name in the show, are. Are based off of the four actors who portrayed them. In fact, Angie Schworer plays Angie. Like, they just. They didn't even try. But there are times where you ask yourself, like, is the role good or is it the performance? And is the performance even good? Or is it just like, it's so tailored to them, how could they fail?

[A]

Right. Although I don't mind that, because we used to make a whole career out of writing shows specifically for person strengths and the songs they said Their favorite note. And so like, I'm like, kind of like, okay, I don't give a shit, girl.

[B]

This isn't necessarily my opinion. I'm just, I'm bringing the food to the table and I'm like, okay, who eaten?

[A]

Well, I'm just saying, I, I guess my response to that isn't, I don't care if the role is tailored to a person.

[B]

No, I prefer it.

[A]

I think that some people still get the short end of the stick. And I think the role of Trent is next to nothing.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Even when performed by good people.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And I think his whole thing of like, knowing everything about the Bible is like, silly. And I think his number isn't very good. And I think the kids in the number act in an insane and not believable way. And I think it is like the, the part of the show that has the least legs.

[B]

We have to, we will have to.

[A]

Talk about love thy neighbor. Unlike the insane gazelle legs of Angie.

[B]

Schwarter or whatever they say. Yeah. She says gazelle legs. We will talk about love thy neighbor because that is part of the queer conversation I want to have about the ending, the double edged sword of the show.

[A]

Right. I mean, like, I don't know if this is a good segue into it, but just like, when we talk about the town of Indiana and like, should it have more time? Should it have less time? I think a big part of it is just that, like, they couldn't quite decide if this town was hateful or misguided or afraid of their own feelings. Like, it's like, doesn't really commit to, like, what's going on with the town.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And they. This number feels like the, the one that has the. Has two legs and two different legs in different worlds the most. Where it's like, do these kids genuinely believe all these things they've read about the Bible, in which case they did not get programmed out of it so fast.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Or are they just kind of like parroting what they've heard friends and neighbors and family say? And deep down they don't really believe it. And this guy just kind of put it in a way that, like, helped them realize how BS it is. But neither of those things feel entirely true or committed to. Do you know what I mean? Like, a lot of the kids are like, well, my mommy says. And it's like, are you saying it because your mommy says? Or do you genuinely think it's. People will go to hell.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Do you know what I mean?

[B]

Also.

[A]

And they don't say either way. But then at the end, they're like, it's also.

[B]

It's also very convenient because, like, until then, that gay stuff isn't. Isn't about religion. It's just like, gay people are gross.

[A]

And also they're, like, mad at her for canceling their prom, but they're not mad at her because she's a lesbian. They're not like, you're sinful and I can't share a desk with you. They're like, this dumb. Canceled our prom.

[B]

Yeah. And so. And they go for the gay stuff because that's what teenagers do. They find the easy thing to mock, and they just mock it and make really stupid jokes. Like, all the teen bullying in this show is so lame, but which is fine. Like, the show is meant to be more sort of like a hopeful fable in. In a way so, like, they. You don't want it to get too real. Like, when Emma's like, oh, thanks for the death threat, which is basically. They, like, hung a pink teddy bear in her locker. I was like, oh, girl, when you get a death threat, you'll know. Yeah, but I. Fine, let's just talk about love thy neighbor. So the first time I ever heard the term pick and choose for religion came when Funny or Die.com made that musical about Prop 8. Like, Allison Janney was one of the, like, conservative Republicans. I remember, like, Neil Patrick Harris was in there and all this stuff. And it was basically just like, why banning gay marriage. Marriage was morally wrong was hypocritical of the Bible. But also, like, by the way, you're gonna boost the economy because, like, gay people have money to spend, and we spend it on dumb. So, like, when we have weddings, we are going to be dropping cash. But the thing that they talked about was like, well, you're eating shrimp cocktail and that. And Leviticus says that's a sin. So you're picking and choosing. I was like, huh? Pick and choose. Fun. Picking and choosing has now become so such a part of the narrative that, like, anyone who says being gay is a sin in the Bible and you tell them what you're picking and choosing, they know.

[A]

They know.

[B]

They absolutely know. And they don't care.

[A]

And these kids, if they really are. If we are committing to a world where these kids are like, church goers and this is their. Yeah, this is their life and this really is serious to them, then. Then they also know that. And they also don't. Don't care about premarital sex or tattoos or anything.

[B]

To them, love thy neighbor does not trump at all. What trumps at all is gay. Being gay a sin? Because it's. But it's also true of everything with everyone in general. And maybe it's because the way my brain has often worked and it's a double edged sword for me as well. I use that term a lot, but it's really accurate for the world. It's so easy for me to see the bad in everyone, including myself and my loved ones. I'll just even like when I'm trying or someone I love is trying and like, and I still get hurt or they get hurt. Like, it's so easy for me to, to be like, I know you meant well, but like, all I can focus on right now is the pain. I have to work actively against that to give myself and other people the benefit of the doubt. But I also think the good thing of that is like I hold myself accountable to a lot of things. I continue to up, but I, I like to think I up less because I'm always aware of that and, and the negativity that I have in there. But I do think ultimately everyone in this world is at their roots a selfish person. Person. Most things we do comes from a place of what is right and convenient.

[A]

For me, that's almost. Sometimes when I'm criticizing something, I try to like go through an exercise of being like, can I, Could I fix this? If I was in like a writer's room and they were looking for pitches, like, what's my fucking pitch for this? I kind of feel like there's a fun version of this where the kids like Trent the most. Not because he's like so spiritually enlightened, but because he was on tv.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And they're like, you're on tv. We watch you after school, we think you're cool.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And he does a whole thing about how like, famous forever and like the tabloids will follow you and how like famous a double edged sword where it's like, yes, your town's on the news right now, but are you gonna be remembered for the rest of your life as the. As like the bitch who chased the lesbian down the hallway. And like, is this gonna be on the Internet for the rest of your life? And these kids get like, essentially scared straight by his like tmz Inquirer esque. Like there are photos of me, me when I used to live in LA and was on Talk to the Hand where I went to the grocery store in this robe. And you can still see them to this day and they're talking about how I'm 15 pounds heavier. And it's like. It's him being like, today is the day where you decide what's going to follow you for the rest of life. For the rest of your life. And these kids don't have to have a reckoning with God.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

But are just like, okay, I can tell. Maybe I'm, like, in the. I'm not, like, ahead of the curve here. And, like, maybe this will follow me for the rest of it. Do you know what I'm saying? Like, that's my. Like, how do I make this not about God?

[B]

And also, the thing for me, me is, you know, they always. People talk about, like, oh, when you move, people in big cities tend to be more tolerant, which is, you know, sort of true. But the. It's more. The idea of, like, the more of the world you're exposed to, the more people in the world that you meet, the more your mind frame of what is right, what is wrong expands.

[A]

Right.

[B]

You know, you. You meet more gay people. You meet more people of color, of different religions, and. And it's no longer just like your town of the. Of what? You know, And I think there's something he could also sort of celebrate. Like, yes, I was famous for a time, like, and the people that I've met and the places that I've gone. And, like, you're like, you only live for so long. Are you? Like. Like, you know, if you want to keep going to church, that scrape, like, look, like, see more of the world and, like, you're gonna learn so much more. You don't realize how young you are.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Which is.

[A]

I think there's just something in there that didn't have to tackle such a huge and spiny.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Sort of.

[B]

Because. And because it does. It is such a flip. And I think the kids could flip because teenagers can flip.

[A]

Totally. Also, these kids, at least the way the show is doing it, they don't really act in these, like, insanely hateful ways. Like, they're. They don't really seem to genuinely hate her because of her identity. They're just kind of mad that she's getting in the way of their, like, teenage fantasy.

[B]

They're spiteful because what matters most to them is at stake. And. And again, I think that is where I. I always want to say to teens, you don't realize how young you are. You are so smart. You. There's someone about the world. You're learning, and I love that you're so passionate. You don't realize just how young you are. And that's a gift because you have time to learn more and be better and find there are other things that are going to be at stake for you, bigger things. So, like, start to let things go.

[A]

Is that you're like, this is your. Like, if you were Trent, this is your speech kind of. I like that.

[B]

Yeah. Because. And I. I think it's more sort of rather than like, preaching and, and, and. And teaching for that lack of. Because the thing is also, people don't like to. Don't like to necessarily learn new stuff. People want to be the ones to know and to pontificate.

[A]

Correct.

[B]

I mean, what is this podcast of not me being like, here are my opinions. But I personally love to learn. I love learning new. And I'm aware of all the ways in the world in which I am a dumb dumb. I've told my cousin Scott, who's a lawyer all the time, like, if I could get my brain to understand law, I'd be a lawyer tomorrow.

[A]

Yeah. And you'd be such a good lawyer.

[B]

Thank you.

[A]

It's true.

[B]

Well, and like my sister, you know, makes so much money in the financial world, I'm like, Laura, if I could get my brain to understand numbers, I do what you do.

[A]

Totally.

[B]

I'm a dumb dumb that way. Like, this is how my brain functions. It's the only thing that makes sense to me. I think I can make decent sense of it, but, like, it's the way it works. And I. The one thing I will say, and it's a joke in the show that I like, where he's like, what about your drama teacher must have taught you about such and such. And, like, we don't have a drama department. He goes, that explains your job. General. General lack of empathy.

[A]

Yeah. I actually love that joke.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And I actually think it is based in some semblance of truth, too. Well.

[B]

Because that's what movies and theater and TV are. It's. You're watching stories about people who maybe are different from you and like, learning a little bit. I hate. I hate. I hate when people say, I can't relate to XYZ because I'm not xyz. And I'm like, you shouldn't have to. I just saw Jaja's African hair braiding at Manhattan Theater Club. That's on. Although outside of living in Harlem for five years, that's not really my world. I adored it.

[A]

Yeah. Also, like, I also dislike this thing of if I can't find a thing in it to relate to, it must not Appeal to me.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Where it's like, can it just be a window into somebody else's world?

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Can't you just be like, damn, okay, cool. That's not my life. But I'm really glad I got to, like, that's how I felt about Strange Loop.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Because I thought strange. I saw Strange Loop three times. I loved it. And people kept being like, you loved it so much. And I'm like, I'm not trying to say, like, I saw myself on stage. I just saw one person's extremely singular and really well pontificated, explained view on the world, and I was totally entranced by it. I loved the way in which it was told. I loved the humor in which it employed. I loved this. I loved it all. Do you know what I'm saying? But it's not because I went and was like, it's crazy that we're all the same person.

[B]

No.

[A]

I went and I saw that show and I was like, are we all the same? We're having the same life. I didn't feel that way.

[B]

You are thought number four. That is. That is truly who you are. That is you on stage. No. All stories are meant to be engaging. That's what they should be. And engaging doesn't mean comforting. It doesn't mean placating. It just means it should bring you in somehow, whether that's through fear or realization or confrontation. Like, it brings you in and that. And so everything should just be a window in that way. So, like, that is what I loved about Jaja's African hair braiding. It was a window into these windows. Women's lives for 24 hours, and I wanted to spend all day with them. There are creatives, you know, no matter what ethnicity, gender, sexuality, who are like, well, this is for the blah, blah. I'm like, I'm sure. I'm like, I'm sure you meant this to make them feel seen, but if it's just for them that it's in its own way, gatekeeping. And your. Your work is actually going to be handicapped because you are blocking off anyone who is not seeing themselves on that stage. It should. It can resonate maybe deeper for people who see themselves on the stage, but people who don't should be able to see it and be like, I learned something today, or I enjoyed something today that I didn't think I would. And I think that is something that Trent can talk about as being an actor from Juilliard.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

And being on TV and having that fame that also then went away, but also does Kind of last with you forever. Because even though, like, in New York he has to cater waiter in between gigs in Indiana, people still know him.

[A]

Right. I guess my version of that pitch was sort of of like, comedy focused, just being like, what's like a funny way? Like, I think scare these kids straight.

[B]

So there's a comedic edge to this as well. I think that you can do. But, like, you know, you can talk about fucking experiences he had that are bonkers. I'm like. And I learned from that. Yes, it can be. You know, my first time on the set of Talk to the Hand, and I had to do blow with Laurie Metcalfe. And I learned don't do blow with Laurie Metcalf.

[A]

And the kids are like, yes, yes, yes.

[B]

Exactly.

[A]

Like, they're like, oh, from RoseAnne, my favorite TV show.

[B]

Exactly.

[A]

Because these kids have. What? Who are they? We don't know.

[B]

It's the. I think what it is is more sort of the confrontation the kids can have is just sort of like, you think you're older than you are because, okay, you. You now with your boyfriend, guess what? I 10 guys, and it's like, has like, does your boyfriend know how to do this to you? I do. And I'm not gonna. But I know. And you're gonna learn one day, too, because that's how life works. You go out in the world and you learn, and you learn new things. You learn. You. Hey, what's it, Kaylee? Oh, it's like, kaylee, you want to know what I know about you and your boyfriend? You don't know where that clit is. You've had sex, but you did not come. It's like. And guess what?

[A]

She's like.

[B]

She's like, you're right.

[A]

She's like, no, Trent, you're right. I'm talking about this with an adult. I'm 17, and I'm talking about coming with an adult. This is gonna go great.

[B]

If Perry Glickman can make anorexia jokes. Like, I think Trent can talk to women about owning their sexuality. He's like, we're all gonna go see Emma Stone and poor things, and you're gonna learn thing or two about the female sexual response.

[A]

I will say, okay, so this is sort of like dovetailing into a related but not the same conversation, which is just about, like, writing pet peeves of mine that this show has a couple of. This is true of so many things and quite. And I want to be clear that I think almost always it is the. The fault of producer interference. I actually don't think this is the fault of writers. So a lot of this show is over explained to me, and I hate over explaining. I think people fear that if you leave a singular gap, people are gonna be like, well, it didn't make sense. And they didn't explain that. And it's like, no, they're not. Actually, it's quite a joy to, like, sort of fill in the blanks with your own whatever, because sometimes it actually helps you see yourself in a show more when you kind of like, you're like, that happened to me or somebody I know or whatever. Like, they are so insistent on explaining how and when Emma got kicked out of her house by her parents and the fact that she lives with her grandma and that her grandma is cool. And it's like, they talk about it so much and they fill in literally every gap. If the dialogue had literally just been her being like, I'll meet you tomorrow. I'm at my grandma's house. And her being like, my grandma's gonna be thrilled to meet Dee Dee Allen.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

You're like, I've learned so much. One, she doesn't live with her parents. Why? We can assume. We can assume.

[B]

I mean, you could even do one extra line of just like, oh, we'll meet you at your parents. Oh, I don't live with them anymore. I live with my grandma. Done.

[A]

We're done. We're done. And then, like. And then they have that whole scene, and then in order to, like, come back to it more and to be like, all like, poor Emma, the principal's like, it was a really rough time. Emma was 15, and her parents kicked her out. And it was a really rough scene. And it's like, we know, and we already love her because you've. You've created this sweet little girl, played to perfection. Umbrella, Broadway. And, like, I love her. You don't have to tell me to love her. I fucking love her. Leave me alone. Do you know what I mean? Like, and I think. I think that's another part that, like, the Indiana stuff suffers from. Is it like New York? We're sort of like, we get it. Eleanor the Musical. We get it.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

We get who they are. We get the kind of gigs they accept. We get it. But the minute we get to Indiana, he's like, this used to be a mining town, and the mining went down. It's like, you know what I'm saying? It's like, shut up.

[B]

Yeah. No. Well, as someone who overwrites and over talks, like, I do know how you have to get it all out and then reduce, reduce. Like the economy. Musical theater is really. Is about economy.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

You have to. You are given a gift of. You can get across so much in so little time. In a song, in a piece of dance. It's that thing that Vulfi talks about in Amadeus when he's like, the beauty of operas. You can have like nine different people singing different thoughts and you can hear all of them because of how it's written. Whereas in a play, you know. Good. And sometimes I do think that the prom does not take full advantage of that. It is a little too old school in its musical theater structuring, which some people really enjoy. I think there's. There is benefit to that. But I do think that there are some harder edges, harder bumps. And part of that is the over explanation. For sure. Going back to Love thy neighbor, but in a positive way about it, I suppose. And this is the queer thing that I'll talk about and sort of where the movie. Movie, in my opinion, truly up. The prom does something with a queer narrative that we almost never see, which is. It gives us three different outcomes of acceptance for queerness. We have Barry Glickman, who we learn has not spoken to his parents in 30 years, even though he's now a very successful Broadway actor. Relatively famous. Still hasn't won his Tony, has his drama, which looks like a bubble plug. And we. But, you know, so there's that. We have the kids who turn over immediately and Love thy neighbor, which, yes, super pat, but you know, again, opposite end of the spectrum. And then we have Alyssa Green's mom. And remind me, we have to talk about Alyssa Green for a second. Of just my sourness. And part of this is the script, and part of this is Courtney Collins as Mrs. Green, who in my opinion is giving the most underrated performance in that show.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

As who is essentially the villain. But how she plays it is truly wonderful, in my opinion. She doesn't play it like a villain. She plays it just like a woman who truly believes she's right and doesn't understand why she's getting hounded.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And is like kind of always on the brink of a nervous breakdown. Whereas Kerry Washington plays it very scandal.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

And doesn't help that her kitchen looks like it's out of a Shonda rhyme show, but whatever. But like, Mrs. Green is constantly just sort of like, I'm doing the right thing here. Why am I the one getting Village vilified? Like, stop it, stop it. What happens is in the final scene with Alyssa, when Alyssa finally comes out to her, like, for real. Real, not for play. Play. And she. You see her get very conflicted. There was a book I read, a queer YA book by David Levithan, I think is his name. It's called Boy Meets Boy. And the main character, like, lives in this town where everyone just accepts queerness. It's like, yeah, everyone's great. And, like, the quarterback's a drag queen and the lesbian cheerleader. Theater is on. Motorbike. Motorcycles. Motorbikeles. Motorbikeles. The manor. But one of his best friends, Tony, lives in, like, a neighboring town, which is not quite that way. And his parents are religious and he's gay and. Oh, out to them. But, like, they are very strict about his life. And in the third act of the book, Tony says to his friend. I forget the friend's name, who's literally the main character. He's like, why are your parents so awful? He's like, they're not awful. They love me so much. He's like. And they truly believe I'm going to hell, and they don't want that. They are trying to figure out how to love me and support me, but also not have me go to hell. They are just so confused. They love me and they don't know what to do.

[A]

Because I think that's probably a very realistic depiction of a lot of people's upbringing.

[B]

Absolutely. And that is kind of what is happening with Mrs. Green in that final scene, or at the very least, how Ms. Collins plays it. I think I'm saying her name correctly.

[A]

I'm craving more of that to be.

[B]

Well, this is also the problem of the problem with so many characters. You don't get as much of certain things as you want because we have so many people to go through. And again, this is where we wonder, like, is it the actor really just selling it? Is it in the text? I do think it's in the text, but I think Colin sells it better than anyone can, which is when she and Izzy are, like, in front of everyone and she's tr. Like, she's still trying to go on that. Like, you're confused. You don't know. And Barry just says, stop. Yeah, you are going to lose her if you do not, like, give this part up. And you watch Courtney kind of start to cry. She says, I just don't want you to have a hard life.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

And Izzy says, it's already hard, and that kills her.

[A]

I also think that is really good writing and also so true. But, like, a lot of parents are just, like, but it's. But you're gonna suffer.

[B]

Yeah. That's what my.

[A]

I didn't raise a kid with the hope that they'd suffer.

[B]

That's what my parents said to me.

[A]

I totally get that.

[B]

My parents were very accepting. I. I was very fortunate to have a, you know, welcoming environment when I came out. But like, my parents honestly said, and part of this is, like, Jewish upbringing of just coming from a long line of people and out of a religion where it's like, we just. We are survivors and we do whatever we can to survive. And my parents, like, I love you so much, and I support you. You know, this is gonna be harder. Right? And I was like, yeah, I know. And so.

[A]

But it's also like a thing of, like, when parents say that they're saying it out of love, but they don't realize that kids are so smart.

[B]

Yeah. But.

[A]

Do you know what I mean?

[B]

And this is. But where we end with Ms. Green, Mrs. Green is her final lines are, we'll talk tonight, and she leaves. And that's how it ends. And it's not, I fully accept you. It's not. I was so wrong. It's not even like, no, go away. It's, we'll talk. And it's a step. And the prom has those three situations of acceptance. Not at all.

[A]

Total acceptance.

[B]

And somewhere in the. That, yeah, the movie does away with all of this. I don't even remember the movie. The kids come around like, no one will believe. And part of that is because, you know, Andrew Reynolds.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Whatever he tells me to do, I'll do.

[A]

Oh, yeah, it was Andrew Rannels. I was literally this entire time going, like, who was it?

[B]

It was Andrew Randalls, who's fine. He sings the. Out of it.

[A]

I was gonna say, I don't. And I would never say this about him, but I don't remember his performance.

[B]

There's. Performance wise, there's nothing to know. And, um, it's because the. The Broadway actors are actually softened in the text of the movie, but the performances are actually dialed up more, which is a weird conflict because in the stage show, they're actually kind of a little more grounded performances, but the writing is over the top. Yeah. Which I buy more.

[A]

Me too.

[B]

In the movie, the kids come around immediately. We are introduced to Barry's mom, played by Tracy Ullman, in the worst wig since.

[A]

Oh, yeah.

[B]

Honestly, since Ariana DeBose's wig in the prom. The wigs in that movie, other than Meryl's, are all garbage.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

But you know, she Shows up. Barry's mom shows up at some point, and they have this big, tearful conflict. And then she keeps coming back and, like, they dance at the prom together. So he gets his full result. He gets his full resolution with his mom. And then Mrs. Green has her. We'll talk tonight. Except Kerry Washington doesn't play it, like, hopeful. She's like, I can't right now. We'll talk tonight. And all right. DeBose has her big crying moment. I'm like, you're gonna win an Oscar next year. And then she shows up two hours later in a rainbow dress, right.

[A]

And dances with them at the.

[B]

And she's like, you're my daughter and I love you. I was like, first of all, that woman would not make a 180 in two hours. I was about to follow Jenna Maroney. It's even better, Jack. She's made a full 360. But she wouldn't make that 180 so quickly, not with how she's been. She wouldn't have a rainbow dress in her closet. But there are two reasons for that. One is Kerry Washington apparently said to Ryan Murphy, I want to be in the finale as a performer myself. I get that, that the finale slaps. You want to dance to the end. But also. And then Ryan Murphy's like, well, I just wanted this version of the show to be a truly, like, fantasy for all queer kids so they could see that, like, it's okay, and blah, blah. And this is where I actually think Ryan Murphy is wrong and where the prom actually does something. Something really good for queer kids by having these three different versions. It is so hard to come out. You never actually know what's going to happen. Even people who seem cool. You don't know. Like that episode of Derry Girls when what's her face comes out to. Is it Claire who's the one who comes out? Or is Claire the main girl?

[A]

No, Claire. Claire is the little lesbian.

[B]

The wee lesbian.

[A]

The wee lesbian.

[B]

She comes. What's the name of the main girl? Aaron. Yeah. When she comes out to Aaron and Aaron, like, not okay. And you think she would be all for. The other friends are totally okay. But not Aaron.

[A]

Right. Who is, like, the pioneer of, like, rights and everything.

[B]

She's like, I don't want to get with you. She's like, I don't want to get with you. You're my friend. I was coming out to you, but. So it's really hard. And queer kids are gonna look at things like Heartstopper and call me by your name. And the movie version of the prom and be like, oh, so I'll come out. My parents will be totally okay, and I'll get a beautiful speech and I'll be quite great. And if their parents don't do that, the kids will blame themselves and go, what did I do wrong? Like, where did I mess up with my coming out?

[A]

That's a really interesting perspective. I was gonna say, my perspective on it is. It's not. It's not hateful or pessimistic to reflect a sense of realism and that it might actually be comforting.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

For people to just be like. Like, there are a lot of different ways this can happen. And I'm just gonna kind of get ready for any of the above. Do you know what I mean? Or even if you didn't have. You know what I mean? Like. Like, it's like you were saying, like, coming out is difficult, but also it's like, it's not a thing that happens once and one time only. You might have a bunch of different kinds of reactions from a bunch of kinds of people over different times in your life, and it might change and your perspective on it might change other, like, whatever.

[B]

And the people who are awful to you will be. Might become lovely eventually. Or like, your parents might still not talk to you. You might still have to live with your grandma. Or like, you and your mom will take many years to get there.

[A]

Right.

[B]

And it's. That is everyone's experience is different. And there's no better reality of that than this series where people have different reactions to all these different kinds of shows because everyone's life journey is different.

[A]

Yeah, totally.

[B]

How I've said this before, like, you know, how you respond to a show depends on where you are in your life when you see it.

[A]

Because there are probably some people who are like, I went to go see a Broadway musical. I want to everyone to be happy in the end.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

I didn't like that Mrs. Green was like, we'll talk later, and wasn't in the finale. I want everyone to hug and kiss and be happy.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And it's like, okay, if that's what you want, then that is what you want. I can't. I can't tell you that anybody is right or wrong. But, like, respect. That's what you want. And there might be some people who are like, this is a fucking fantasy. This is a cartoon. These kids would never act this way. Those kids. Kids would be horrible to her. And it's like, look, if that's what you're craving, because it, like, reflects something that's. That's more true to you. We'll get first. Sorry. And second of all. Okay. I'm sure there is something out there that reflects that, but, like, this might not be the one. I think what's a little tough about this show and I think why people are responding to it in the way they are, is that it. Like, it kind of exists in both worlds a little.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And I think it doesn't quite feed the fire for anybody. The person who wants the fantasy or the person who wants the realism. It's like, somewhere between the fantasy and the realism. But I. I agree. Like, I mean, my thing about Alyssa's mom is, I think, again, I don't know if this is writing intent or this is, like, producer interference or whatever, but, like, I think that they want her to suspect her daughter's a lesbian, and they think they, like, drop that thread and then never talk about it again. But I think that's a much more interesting story.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Than a woman who's just sort of like. I don't know. This is how I was raised. Like, the idea that this mom really loves her daughter. Loves her daughter, actually, so much that she's quite in tune with who she is and really has started to suspect over the last couple years that her daughter's a lesbian. And she just thinks, if I can just do this, this, this, this, this, I'll spare her that. She doesn't have to go through that. Not even from a hateful way. Not even like a my daughter's gonna go to hell way, but in a way that's like, not in this town. Not with these people, not with this pta. I'm on it. I know what they say. Say, not my daughter. You know what I mean? Like, that feels so realistic.

[B]

And I. I do think that is how Izzy and Courtney. I say say their names like I know them, but I think that is how they play it.

[A]

It's in the script. I read the script before I watched, and it's like, it's a little in there. There's a whisper there.

[B]

It's like, no, you. Again, I think the. The theme for the prom for both of us and for a lot of people who have their issues, is more sort of like just more. Just a little more throughout, as opposed to, like, a little bit of all of it at different points.

[A]

Yeah. I would have almost, like, in the way that she's, like, so obsessed with talking about the pta, I almost wish she, like, let her daughter in a little bit of Just being like, you should hear the way these people on the PTA talk about Emma.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And then. And that being like a little bit of like a. And I don't want that to be you, because that'd be so horrible if it was. But also being like, wink it.

[B]

Well, I think it could explain a bit more why she's so intense about this specific issue. Because like again, when. When something's hitting close to home that you don't want it to, you kind of go whole hog in the other direction. I mean, there's that joke of like, oh, every homophobe is secretly gay. Obviously not everyone. But like, how many times do you see in life a senator or politician who's so anti gay who gets caught with a male prostitute? And it's like when there's a part of yourself that you hate or part of someone you love that you don't like and you see out in the world, you're like, if I crush it out there, maybe it'll get crushed here. And I mean, that's sort of the, the hope that a lot of like, you know, Republican people have when they see queer stories around. They're like, well, if we have little fewer representations, it won't influence my kids so much. It's like, no, no, no. Your kid is seeing a safe space and they go, oh great, it's out there so I can be honest with myself. It's giving them the tools to be happier and more centered. But that's not how they view it. They think it's imposing. And the truth is like everyone's just always imposing all the time. Just how something existing is not imposing, it's just, it's existing. You know, sometimes a flower is a flower is a flower and it is not the flower moon, it's just a flower.

[A]

Wow.

[B]

I know. And it's not a killer either. And I think sometimes shows or stories or whatever you want, whatever it is, they do sometimes fan those flames because they can be so over heavy handed about it. But then you have something like, you know, like a call me by your name or a birdcage, which is just like, no, this is just a story about these people living this kind of life and the things that are happening to them. Yeah, that's no. The birdcage. Yes, there's like a tolerance element to it, but it's not, there's no ham fisted moment of the birdcage. It's like, you need to understand the only moment we get is when Robin Williams tells his son, like, yes, I'm A middle aged fag. I know who I. I am. Bye. Like, it's so simple.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And part of that is because everyone on that movie is a fucking All Star and they know exactly how to tell stories.

[A]

Right. But, but it's also like the script does a really good job too, of just like you, you understand where the child is coming from in asking this, this very insensitive task of his parents.

[B]

Honey, Elaine May is part of this All Star lineup. Don't you fuck. Do you think I would never include Elaine May in my praise?

[A]

No, I'm certainly not.

[B]

Elaine May has tried to get me pregnant five times and the only reason why I didn't take is because she decided to pull out.

[A]

Wow. I mean, she's amazing. But again, just like it's.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

You as an audience are starting to, to want the kid to learn a lesson.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Because you're starting to feel worse and worse for the position that he's putting his parents in, who are obviously like, deeply loving of him and you understand why he's freaking out. But you're like, okay, now you're just erasing your parents entirely. And then he gets his reckoning. But it's not like you shouldn't be embarrassed. It's like, it's just. It happens.

[B]

Okay? So actually, okay, here's. Here's what, here's what I want to do for a second with the Bird Cage to give an example of how to properly sprinkle little bits throughout a movie about. With a character that it's not really about them. And yet the arc still makes sense with the character of Val. And the Birdcage. And the Birdcage is an American remake of the French film La Cage Fall, which is a film adaptation of the stage play La Cage Fall. And the movie of La Cage Fall, in my opinion, is better than the stage play for many reasons. The first thing is, is that in the stage play of, you know, the play, in the musical, the son is the one who comes up with the lie to the fiance about what his parents do. The movie version, both the French and the American, it's the girlfriend that does it. So we already learn that he's open about what his parents do. The drag stuff.

[A]

She got them into trouble.

[B]

Yes. And the way that the Birdcage plays it, it's not that Calista Flockhart is not okay with it. She's 17, so she's young. They're both, both young. And her parents are Republican. And it's again, it's that thing of like, I know they love me, but, like, at the same time, like, I don't know how they're gonna react. And I'm 17. I'm making an impulsive decision. So she's the one who lies. Not because she's embarrassed. And Val even says when. When Robin Williams, like, do you want me to be somebody else? He goes, no. And neither does she. It's like her. We're young, and her parents. I'm like. And all he can see is the finish line. I'm like, I just want to get married.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Can I just get married? So that everything just gets more complicated. And he. And you have a moment with him and Nathan Lane early, so you know that there's love there. Like, they have the bond. It's all good. It's like, it's. He's doesn't hate Nathan Lane, but it's also a different relationship than the one he has with Robin Williams. So, like, there's love, but it's different. So all this is established and all little pieces. And then as things rile up and. And. And more complications happen. And then Nathan Ling comes out in the suit with the pink socks. And, like, you can tell that it's not right. And he's trying, and he just thinks that he's failed. And he's like, oh, God, why do you both hate me? And, like, walks away. And Val goes off to, like, light the candles and sees Hankazara without the shoes. And Hankazar is like, I do not wear shoes because they make me fall down. And then you see Val, like, snappers, and he's like, just put them on, please, and cut me some slack today. And it's not that he's angry at everyone. Like, he's angry at himself, right? He's like. He's just watched someone he cares about try really hard and fail. And, like, he's like, part of this is my fault. Fault. Now he's like, but I'm. I'm in too deep, right?

[A]

It's too deep now. Now you have to put on shoes.

[B]

And, like, the man who helped raise me is so. Is miserable right now, right? He's like. And he's like, will this end? I don't know. And it's. It.

[A]

It.

[B]

You can see that it affects him. He's not blind, and he's not a total dick.

[A]

And he's not callous about it.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And then in the end, he's the one who makes the decision to reveal that Nathan Lane is his mother. And he doesn't do it. It's like, you can go yourself. He's like, this is my mother. This is really. This. These are my parents. And it's like. It's a really beautiful arc, and it's. There are no major scenes about it. It's all tiny. And a movie that has multiple characters and all these different storylines, that is a way to do it.

[A]

And it has two different. Two very different worlds meeting.

[B]

Yes, it is.

[A]

It has this, like, Miami.

[B]

Are we saying that Elaine May needed to write the Prom?

[A]

I think if Elaine May wrote the Prom, it'd be pretty. Pretty exceptional.

[B]

If Elaine May wrote the Prom, it wouldn't be featured in the series, and no one would have any issues whatsoever. And Ryan Murphy would have stayed the fuck away.

[A]

Yeah. It's just tough because, like.

[B]

Because Ryan Murphy's everywhere.

[A]

That's exactly what I was gonna say. No, I was gonna say, like, the Birdcage is. I mean, this is a silly example because, like, there also is La Cage, but I think the Birdcage is better than La Cage in the Musical. And it's because movies deal in naturalism and musicals do not. And so sometimes that works better. Sometimes you see something taken to the stage as a musical, and you're like, holy shit. This needed music. This really needed music. And, like, I don't know. Maybe the Prom would have been an amazing Elaine May movie. I don't know. I don't know.

[B]

I don't know. I would have loved it. I would have loved to have seen it. But we digress. I would like to now go into my little sourness about Alyssa Green.

[A]

Yeah, go for it.

[B]

Before we do that, we have to take one more break.

[A]

Where are we going? Billy, I beg to differ with you.

[B]

How do you mean? You're the. The top. Yeah.

[A]

You're an arrow collar.

[B]

You're the top. You're a Coolidge dollar tread. And we're back.

[A]

That was so fun.

[B]

It was so much fun.

[A]

We had such a good time.

[B]

I know. I didn't know I could wear heels that well, but here we are.

[A]

Yeah. It's seven inches.

[B]

Seven inches.

[A]

Have you been watching? I don't think you do because you don't do reality tv.

[B]

I don't.

[A]

There's a thing right now called Golden Bath. Does this sound at all familiar to you?

[B]

Yes.

[A]

Okay. In the first episode, when he was meeting the women.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

This one woman, she's awesome. Love her.

[B]

Sure.

[A]

She got out of the car, she goes and she meets the guy who's the bachelor, and she goes, do you like my heels? And he Goes, oh yes. And she goes, that's how you know I can handle 6 inches. Or she said something like, I'm proving to you that I'm comfortable with whatever. It was so fast. It was so slick. She didn't make too much of a moment. It.

[B]

Well, first of all, it's the Golden Bachelor. Everyone's of an age where, you know, they've been pounded a couple dozen times.

[A]

And she made that clear. And I want to say that I respect that. I was jaw dropped. I rewound like five times. It was really special. God bless that woman.

[B]

Also let me be very clear. I'm not anti all reality tv. I haven't watched Drag Race lately, but I do still watch Drag Race. I watch Great British Bake Off.

[A]

Yeah, no, I wasn't saying that. I meant that brand. I also have never watched the Bachelor before. I'm watching the Golden Bachelor and it's my introduction to the Bachelor franchise entirely.

[B]

I've watched a total of three seasons of the Bachelor. Two very early in the run. And then I watched the Nick season because my roommates were watching it and I caught on.

[A]

It's not really my thing, but I am really enjoying meeting these sure, sure, sure. Very fierce older women.

[B]

I'm very aware of the Golden Bachelor. So Alyssa Green. Who is Alyssa Green? Ali?

[A]

Alyssa Green is Emma's secret girlfriend. Friend. She is on the cheerleading team. She's Mrs. Green, who's the head of the PTA's daughter.

[B]

She's on the prom committee. Yeah, she's very popular.

[A]

Yes, they say.

[B]

Yes. They always say how no one ever.

[A]

Really treats her that way. But they say she's popular.

[B]

They say she's very popular. She's one of the, the in girls.

[A]

And she's a straight A student.

[B]

Exactly. And we only really get two major scenes with Alyssa in act one. She's like introduced a little bit is like, leave her alone. But like in a very casual way. And then we find out that she's actually Emma's girlfriend during the I just want to dance with you scene because she's freaking out cuz the Broadway actors are there and she's like, the whole thing with prom was like, we had a plan. We're going to go, we're going to dance and everyone's going to know we're together. And that'll be your big coming out. It's a way for Alyssa to come out with actually having to say to many, many people, I'm gay, I'm gay, I'm gay. Which is, you know, that Is certainly a plan. But is it the plan? I don't know.

[A]

I can see how it's some people's dream.

[B]

Yeah. When you're a teenager again, you're sort of like, you know, it's going to be a thing. It'll be, it'll. Everyone will be shocked for a second, but it'll be great.

[A]

And everyone be having so much fun at prom. Yeah.

[B]

Who's going to care? Everyone's going to be having a great time. And then the second one is you happened. Which is when the prom is back on.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

And the kids freak out and they start doing these giant posals. Yeah. The giant promos. Which are apparently really a thing. I looked them up. Like people go all out.

[A]

Yeah, people go all out. What did you do for me?

[B]

You asked me.

[A]

That's true.

[B]

And I believe what you texted was Joe and I are no longer together. I'm desperate. Can you please, please, please, please, please be the breathing body next to me?

[A]

That is so not what happened.

[B]

That is absolutely what happened.

[A]

That is so not what happened.

[B]

You said since. Since I can't find someone in my world.

[A]

That is so not what happened.

[B]

Can you please, please.

[A]

This is not what happened.

[B]

You said I'm doing.

[A]

I'm looking down the barrel of the camera here. I want you all to understand that this is not what happened. I probably begged him to go with me.

[B]

Beg? You haven't begged me for anything in your fucking life.

[A]

Too proud. And I never will.

[B]

Hallie Gordon will never star in Ain't too Proud to beg.

[A]

So many reasons.

[B]

Story. Well, you don't like narration and over explanation. And that show doesn't have a single scene that. That doesn't get interrupted by Derek Baskin going here's the thing.

[A]

Yeah, I just hate. Here's the thing. While you talk about Alyssa Green, I'm gonna pull up my notes. Just make sure I haven't forgotten anything.

[B]

So yeah, we have the promposal things and we see for like really the first time Alyssa and Emma having like a genuine sweet. We're a couple. This is us happy. This is what we're like in our normal day to day. And you know Izzy, Michaela in the video she does like the inflatable arm waving tube man dance. But then after that it's pretty much nothing but conflict. And when we find out that there are the two separate problems that the PTA held a secret prom that Emma doesn't know about. So Emma shows up to the gym all alone and call and. And Alyssa calls her. You know, two of Alyssa's friends find out about her, her and Emma, which is why they don't tell Alyssa about the fake prom. And it's all very convoluted. It's a lot of, like, they didn't tell me in this. And, like, there are so many reasons why. Like, it was a giant conspiracy to make sure that neither of us ever found out.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

I think it's actually would have been interesting and honestly more in character for Alyssa if she found out at the last second. And instead of texting Emma not to go to the gym, she just kind.

[A]

Of went, let her go.

[B]

She kind of just went. Not out of vindictiveness, but out of just self preservation. Because that is sort of my take on Alyssa at the moment. Isabelle Michaela plays her like a girl with extreme anxiety and. And a dark sadness in her, which is her being a wonderful actress. This was the show that made me fall in love with her. And now I'm like, anytime someone's like, who is like, someone who's like a quirky ingenue who you think could bring depth, like her isn't Kayla. But my issue with Alyssa on this rewatch. And again, this is where we talk about sort of like your personal journey and what you.

[A]

What you crave in a narrative.

[B]

Yes. This. This relationship between Alyssa and Emma. Emma is the one who has. Is out. Alyssa is not out yet. And they've been together for a year and a half.

[A]

It's a long time. It's a long time for high school. My God.

[B]

It's a long time where Emma is the one who has to face the brunt of rejection every day. And we don't really know necessarily what Emma's life was like before the prom stuff. It could have just been that she was fully isolated. No one necessarily made fun of her. But also no one included her in anything.

[A]

Right.

[B]

It's very murky with that narrative. We don't know because, like, in love thy neighbor kids are like, well, you used to hang out with Emma before she turned gay. Hey, it's like, okay, yeah. So did you start making fun of her? Do you just ignore her? Unclear, unclear, unclear, unclear. But we don't know how Alyssa and Emma met. Part of me, like, views it a little bit like Charlie and Ben in Hardstopper. Like, Alyssa sat down with Emma one day with her guitar. She's like, that's really pretty tune. You're gay now, right? Kiss me. And just like. She's like, you're out. I can take advantage. I'm sure. That's not what happened.

[A]

But you know, you're gay now.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

That song was by the Indigo Girls. Fucking got you. You're gay. That was least complicated by Indigo Girls off of Swamp. Ophelia. You're fucking gay now.

[B]

You were so.

[A]

Got you.

[B]

You were so mad at me for not including Closer to Find in my Barbie playlist.

[A]

It's one of my favorite songs of all time. I love the Indigo Girls.

[B]

Yeah, I know you do. But point is, so my issue with Alyssa, it's. The whole thing is like, I can't come out. I'm too afraid. I'm too afraid. I'm too afraid. There's also a bit for me of like, that selfishness, that self preservation of Alyssa, in her mind has more to lose by coming out in the wrong way at the wrong moment.

[A]

And.

[B]

And it's just easier to let Emma stay on the island because she's popular, she has friends, she's on all these committees. Like, what would go away for her if she came out in her mind.

[A]

Right.

[B]

And I don't. And I recognize the fear, but I also do recognize a bit of the self selfishness, especially because, again, I have to say this. Emma is the one who is having to deal with all of it. Alyssa doesn't have to deal with any of it. And I feel for her. I do. I'm an empathetic person, but part of me, and it's the part of me that got broken last year because I had to deal with something very similar. I was just like, girl, I'm recognizing the selfishness. And luckily you and Emma work it out in the end and you come out. It's all good. But like, the worst night of Emma's life was made worse because you weren't there. Weren't there?

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And you kept saying, I can't. And Emma's like, no, it's. You won't.

[A]

Right. Which again, I thought that was good writing.

[B]

It was good writing. And you know, hangs up on her. And then in the next act, when Alyssa tries to plead her case to Emma and Emma's not having it, she sings the song about her life. And like, yeah, no, I recognize in the song, Alyssa Green.

[A]

It's like, teens love this song.

[B]

I'm sure they do.

[A]

Many a girl has sung this for me in our initial consultation.

[B]

It's a good acting song.

[A]

Yes. And they like it. They like the confessional quality.

[B]

It's a good confessional quality. It's not too Jason Harper Brown Wordy. It's not too Jason or Brown belty. It's the right amount of the vocal range, so you really can act it. It gets to a nice. And talk about economy. There's a good amount of economy in those lyrics where you get the full picture in each new chapter she's talking about.

[A]

It's also, like, they do a good job of. In this one, explaining that it's not just that Alyssa doesn't give a shit if Emma is alone all the time. It's that, like, she feels like the great dream for this family. If she's perfect, dad will come back. I think she knows that won't happen, but she feels a responsibility, and she.

[B]

Feels that her mom feels it. And.

[A]

And then also, like, she's gonna go to college. She's gonna have these things. She's gonna. Whatever. She's gonna be the. She is the future of this family.

[B]

It's a lot of pressure, and I. I understand that, and I think the song does a good job of. Of giving us that insight.

[A]

Yes. And I think if we didn't have that insight, she'd be a quite hateable character.

[B]

Agreed. Agreed. It would fall completely on the actress to make her more likable or relatable in some way. And I think that song helps a great deal. Where I think the prom is actually really good at the writing is that the song doesn't win Emma over in the end. Emma says to her, I rec. I do believe you have to. Feelings for me. The hateful person wants to be like, I want to believe you have feelings for me, but saying, I believe you have feelings for me, but I can't do this anymore. It hurts too much. And Alyssa says, are you breaking out with me? And Emma says, yes, I think I am. Bye. And part of the reason why I think Alyssa is driven to come out in the end, not just because it feels like a much safer space because all the kids are now okay with it, but also, until that moment, and I don't think she realizes it, that she's been doing this is that in a weird way, she's kind of wanted to have it both ways. She's wanted to have the girlfriend so she can, you know, stoke those lesbian flames while also being able to take advantage of a heterosexual norm.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

Of. Of everyone thinking that she's straight so she can still do all the things she wants to do, but in secret, she's still doing the gay stuff, which is very selfish. And I think this is a moment. It unfortunately happens off stage, but I do think that Izzy sells it. Of the. It Would be a really great moment if we could have seen it of. Of Alyssa recognizing. Oh, I've actually. Even though I love Emma, and I've thought I've been doing all these good things for her, and I thought that I've been caring. She's like, I've actually been very selfish the last year and a half. And if I love her like I say, I. I do. And if I want the life that I say I want, I do have to take this chance. And I can't let her be alone anymore. And I think that would be a great moment to see. We never see it, unfortunately.

[A]

Right. She just kind of shows up and is like, and this is my girlfriend.

[B]

It's me.

[A]

I'm the lesbian.

[B]

Hi, it's me. Hi, I'm the lesbian.

[A]

I'm the wee lesbian.

[B]

I'm the wee lesbian. It's me. Do you think that's what Taylor Swift wanted to write?

[A]

I don't know. I recently got introduced. And by recently I mean, like, introduced in the last four days. Got introduced to this whole world of, like, is Taylor Swift gay?

[B]

Oh, well, that was introduced, I think, during the you need to calm down video when everyone's like, she's wearing bi colors.

[A]

I'm just saying, I. This was brand new information because apparently something happened that made them all feel quite invalidated. And so, like, the whole community of people who are like, she's gay. I've just, I. I've learned so many things.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

Every day I learn something.

[B]

It's good to learn.

[A]

It's so good to learn. Sometimes I go, oh, I'm old. This isn't gonna stay in my brain.

[B]

Ask Kate Winslet if she's gay. Because Kate Winslet apparently knows who everyone that's closeted in Hollywood is.

[A]

How does Cade Lindsay know all that?

[B]

Because she said in an interview, she's like, I can name you five actors right now who are gay but won't come out. She's like. And they. They're all names you would know and are like a list.

[A]

Is it because she.

[B]

She wasn't saying it to be like, I have the tea. She was saying it to. She was saying it because they were like, well, you know, Hollywood's inclusive. And she's like, it's not inclusive. She goes, hollywood's still incredibly homophobic.

[A]

Right? If you came out, you wouldn't get the roles you got. You get now.

[B]

Because, yeah, she's like, people are coming out now. She's like, but even those who are coming out now, like, it's still like, they have to still prove themselves.

[A]

Yeah, totally.

[B]

Yeah. She's like anyone. There's so many people who are, who have been famous for years who are gay and couldn't come out when, when they were famous and now they're in too deep and they can't do it.

[A]

Do you think that some of your feelings about Alyssa would have been helped if she, she had. I mean, again, this doesn't make it right morally, but from a storytelling perspective, if she had said something along the lines of like, I just need to wait until after prom when we're, when we're seniors. Because if I say, if I come out about this now blank, like, I'll lose this. Da, da, da, da. Or my. This money comes entirely from a thing I won from the pta. And if I come out, they'll pull this scholar. Do you know what I'm saying?

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Would you feel better if there was like a, like a tangible thing?

[B]

No. Because it all just comes from selfishness. The truth is that I did not have this problem when I saw the show in 2018. I did not have this problem when I watched the movie. I only had this problem in the last week researching it. And again, it's only because of my experience.

[A]

Do other. Did you get other people saying that they felt this way?

[B]

No, this is purely me.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

And I don't. I think a lot of people enjoy Alyssa and I believe it's because of Izzy's performance.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Which brings us back to the topic of, like, how much of this, of the success of the Prom comes from the performances. Because as I said, this is a whole conversation, but it'll be short. When the movie happened, when Ryan Murphy announced that he was making a movie version of the Prom, and I was asking some friends about this because I forgot for a second how, like, intense the fandom was about that he was not going to use any, like, Broadway cast.

[A]

Yeah, I sort of vaguely remember those too.

[B]

Because he, Brian Murphy, got a 300 million dollar Netflix production deal, which I believe Hollywood was a part of as well. That miniseries that blew.

[A]

Oh, I thought you said, like, Hollywood is part of it. I think they were. I think Netflix is in Hollywood.

[B]

Netflix is in Holly. Rude. No, it's that miniseries I understand, where Patti LuPone got fucked on the banister. Bad show, but decent fucking. But the Prom was a part of that. And he saw the Prom on Broadway and loved. And like, I think he and the producer of that show kind of conspired to keep it running till the Tonys, even though he was losing money every day. And there was confusion as to whether he was going to film it like they eventually did with Diana, like on stage, or if he was gonna make a movie. Movie. And then it became clear, no, he's making a movie movie. And he said pretty early on, I'm not using the Broadway cast. I'm using Hollywood actors. And it's still unclear if, like the. If the entire Broadway cast was able to audition for it. And then he made his decision. I know they, I know know that Caitlyn auditioned, but she had to, like, fight to get in the room.

[A]

Yeah. Which is pretty crazy.

[B]

It is crazy.

[A]

Like, at the, like, who cares?

[B]

Yeah. They should.

[A]

Who am I is.

[B]

They should. They should have just granted her, like the audition up front, even if they didn't really think they were going to use her. Be like, yeah, absolutely.

[A]

Yeah, of course. Yes. Who originated it. But it's also like, there's a difference between Meryl Streep.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

And like some other 20 year old girl.

[B]

But the, but yes, the, the thing about the movie, and there's two sides to this that I understand. One is it doesn't matter who's in the movie. It was going to get made anyway. It was part of a package deal that Ryan made, and part of that deal was like, he had full creative control.

[A]

Right. So he could have cast.

[B]

Netflix wasn't breathing down his neck. He could have truly cast whoever he wanted. He chose this. This was a creative decision of his. So I understand the, the fur of the fans in that respect of, like, you could have. Why not?

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Also would have made the movie be cheaper. Like, why not? But also, you know, no one cares if Beth Leavel and Brooke Seshmaneskis are starring in a Netflix movie. It's the sad reality, like, the world doesn't know who they are. The world knows who Meryl is. They know who Nicole is. Most of them know who James Corden is, and they don't like it. And some people know against their will. Yeah. And some people know who Andrew Randalls isn't. A lot of people know Kerry Washington. It's like, that was just the truth of the matter. And I think that it shines a light on sort of this weird alternate reality of the musical version of the problem where, like, these actors are not only successful on Broadway, but, like, have money. Trent, you know, going from job to job, even though if, if Talk to the Hand is playing in syndication in Indiana, like, I don't know. How's he not making syndication?

[A]

I know. I believe that too. That was another thing I was thinking about while revisiting. This is. I was like, if everybody knows it, so much so that the guy behind the front desk at the hotel knows. Talk to the hand. Then this man has syndication money and all. Also, he says he's joining the non Equity tour of Godspell. What did he do? Do a Patti LuPone where he was like, I'm giving up my card.

[B]

I think, I truly think that's what it is. Or like, maybe it's an off the books kind of contract. Because like, let's be clear, the man is Equity.

[A]

Hashtag, ask if it's Equity.

[B]

But also, I know Equity people who've done non Equity productions. And just don't tell the union because they're like, I just. I want to work.

[A]

Sure, when you're doing like a Friends.

[B]

Show, but not when you're doing. Not when you're doing a national tour. Exactly. It's going to the Bible Belt. And then you have Angie who's been in Chicago for 20 years and like they still won't let her play Roxie Hart. I'm like, okay, let me be very clear. In 20 years of Chicago, you've absolutely played Roxie Hart once. Because Tina Louise absolutely called out. Yeah. Or like Melanie Griffith absolutely called out. Like that shit just happens.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Lisa Rinna called out and they keep saying, like, oh, the producers won't let me. I'm like, it's management, baby. Like, the Weisslers are not in that have not been in that theater since 1999. Its management. And like, if management has not let you gone on yet, there's probably a reason. Like you are probably a nightmare.

[A]

Or she is the dance captain and so good in the ensemble that if she's not in the ensemble, it all fucking falls apart without her. So they're willing to sacrifice her.

[B]

That is entirely possible. But in 20 years, there's absolutely a moment where you do go, yes, completely. But again, but you know what I'm saying?

[A]

Like that again, this is something that no one would give a shit about except for people watching on who are like Broadway people who would be like, my friend got stuck as a swing too. You know what I mean?

[B]

It's the alternate reality. But again that it, it plants this false seed in the fans heads of what Broadway is and like what Broadway actors can get. When it's like, well, they originated the role. It's tailored to who they are. I'm like, yes, and welcome to the world. It's now in Hollywood and Meryl's doing it. It's, it's how it is. And it took Meryl Streep like 25 years of being a two time Oscar winner to get to the point where, where she just gets offered things.

[A]

Right?

[B]

Like she, all of the 80s, she was like. Even though she was like first on the list for so many things, she auditioned for a million things. And she was considered not a box office draw until Devil Wears Prada. Like, it took her forever. And we now just look at this. Well, it's Meryl now. I'm like, yeah, she had to fight too.

[A]

Yeah. I mean, I just, I really, I remember being that kind of a teenager who like when, you know, the revival would get cast and they'd put some star in it and I'd be like, they don't need this. This is insane. This used to be Barbara Harris. Do you know what I mean? Like, I was that 13 year old. So, like, I really get it. And I think everybody needs to have their.

[B]

Like, why is Barbara Harris both of our go tos? Because she's, she's the best. I know, but I'm just saying because.

[A]

We want 14 year olds to know who. Barbara Harris.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

You know what I'm saying? Like, that's our dreams that we meet a 14 year old who knows who Barbara Harris is.

[B]

So. Ally. Ally. And I also guess, just so you know, Ally and I probably see each other in person, like actually more frequently now. But for a while it was like every six months. Yeah, just, you know, busy life and things. And, you know, you had a boyfriend and then a fiance and then a husband. And as we all know, once a man enters your life, it just takes up all your time.

[A]

But so, because famously, I love men so much. I talk about it all the time.

[B]

Ally, you can't joke about that because it's true. That's how we bonded. You're like, you're like, you're gay. I love dick. I was like, that's not true.

[A]

It was like, you're gay. I love Barbara Harris. Are you kidding? This is rewriting history.

[B]

This is. But this is where I'm getting at.

[A]

This is. This happened at the manor, by the way.

[B]

This happened at the manor. But Allie, when we sit down, Ali will say things like. And a lot of people say this, like, even though it's been six months, I sit down, it's like nothing's changed. Like we're picking up where we left off. You're truly the only person who can say that. And I don't get upset about it. Other people say that. And I'm like, you say that as an excuse to not see me for your teeth.

[A]

I didn't text you back.

[B]

Yeah, exactly. No, but for you, you say that. And the reason why I'm not mad is because both of our go tos is Barbara Harris. And it's because we need the youth to know who she is.

[A]

We really need the youth to know.

[B]

We can act on the spiritual level. And I love it. Barbara Harris back in the day would have made a great Dee Dee Allen.

[A]

A million percent.

[B]

She would have made a great everything.

[A]

I'm just saying, I think it is every Broadway fans, like, Crucible to go through the, like, I can't believe, yeah, blah, blah, blah, didn't get to do this on film. Or I can't believe blah, blah, blah, didn't make the transfer. Yeah, this was theirs.

[B]

And it's. And because sometimes. Because sometimes it happens and people think that that should always be the norm. Like, well, sometimes it should. Shouldn't be. For every Yul Brynner in the King and I, you have the cast of Rent where it's like, no, this doesn't translate.

[A]

Yeah, it didn't translate.

[B]

Or the producers cast was like, no. Or Ben Platt and Evan Hansen. It's like the performance just doesn't translate. And it actually would have been better to have someone who's more comfortable in front of the camera and Platt, you know, talented as he is and as many times in front of the camera as he's been, I think that there are other actors around his age who probably would have been more comfortable and known how to tone it down in that way.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

But that's a story for another day for me. Do the Evan Hansen episode. Yeah.

[A]

You got a whole episode.

[B]

Yeah. Favorite song in the prom.

[A]

Barry's going to prom.

[B]

It's a great one.

[A]

I just really love it. And also, I will say my only major thing that I feel at the end of the prom is I cannot believe that he says he has a line where he's like, I was going to wear a silver tux with an aquamarine tie and cummerbund and I was going to wear those contact lenses that turn your eyes bright blue. I cannot believe that he didn't enter for prom and go and have like, the brightest bluest Mayhem Miller contacts in. I cannot believe that they left that joke on the table. That was a free joke. Do you understand how hard it is to get free real estate? That is free real estate.

[B]

Would bright blue eyes have popped on stage for the entire theater? To see girl.

[A]

You think that drag queens don't think about that when they pick their blue contest?

[B]

I know, I know. I'm just saying. It was also a quick change. This was.

[A]

I'm curious.

[B]

I didn't mention this yet, and I wanted to the moment that always makes me clamped. So after, like, the whole kerfuffle with prom at the end of act one, tonight belongs to us and you and all those bss, which also, I don't know why I get. Even though the girls are the villains of the show until the end of Act 1, I prefer the part of tonight belongs to you or to us. When the girls sing, they're a bit. For some reason.

[A]

Yeah. I actually love that Barda Spears.

[B]

I love it when nine girl girls from Elon in Michigan come together in short shorts and go. Belongs to us. Like, it's just. I don't know.

[A]

I love it.

[B]

It's. It's.

[A]

I really didn't like the choreography of the production.

[B]

I don't. I. I don't like the choreography of the original production. And I was like.

[A]

Especially, like, in the. Like, this is how kids dance at prom. I was like, oh, my.

[B]

Casey Nicholas, a very talented man. The one thing I don't like is his choreography for the youngins. Because I. I felt the same way about mean girls where it's. It's like an alien who came to Earth, wrote down what he saw, then went back to his planet. He's like, how do I explain to you how they do things? So it's like, I do believe, like, he. He, like, did the research and then, like, tried to invest it into musical theater know how? And just something got lost in translation because it, like, I see it. I. I see the nuggets from, like, I know how you got to here, but this isn't what it is.

[A]

Yeah. It's like Ariel brushing her hair with the fork. We see how you got there, girl.

[B]

Yes, exactly. I also. My other hot take is. And I'm hoping he'll prove me right now, is for years, I feel like Nicola was trying so hard to win that choreography, Tony. And every show, the choreography got more insane and a little sloppier in hopes that he'd win it. And now that he's won it for something like, it hot. I'm like, okay, well, relax. Yeah. I'm like, go back to your Mormon drowsy chaperone days where, like, it wasn't about everything and the kids. It was about tightness and inventiveness and structure.

[A]

Yeah. Mormon is Some perfect choreography.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

So fun.

[B]

And the choreography and chaperone's fucking great. And. And there's no, like, outside of Sutton's one Cooter slam. There's nothing, like, wild crazy.

[A]

And she feels really.

[B]

She builds to it.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Like, the staging for show off, isn't that, like, winded? It's a lot of jokes, like. But I digress. All that happens, and we get the new prompt at the end of the show where everyone pays to. For her to go to prom, and she invites all the queer kids in the state to come.

[A]

Yeah. And they all show up at prom.

[B]

That's the moment that makes me feel clapped. I love that when they. When they sing, it's time to build a prom. And all the kids start running in and their queerness. And they look around and they're just so happy. And I'm just like. Every time I even listen to it and I imagine it happening, I get very. For clemped.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

It's.

[A]

It's the one I also like. I was reading the sage turn directions, and it's like, kids start excitedly entering proms. There are gay couples, There are lesbian couples. There are even straight couples. And I loved the phrasing of that, of just being like. Believe it or not, even straight people came.

[B]

Well, because they pitch it as just inclusive. It's not a gay prom. It's an inclusive.

[A]

I know. I just think it was funny. I sort of like.

[B]

I know. I wish.

[A]

Don't faint.

[B]

Well, for anyone who ever wants to, like, have fun with stage directions, if you get your hands on the script of Thoroughly Modern Millie, Dick Scanlan's stage directions are art because they're.

[A]

They're fun.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

I want to read them.

[B]

Because he's telling you how to act, essentially, how to, like, say, certain line deliveries. So, like the bit when Dorothy first shows up to the hotel Priscilla, and what's her face, whose room she replaces, is already sold into white slavery. And Mrs. Mears says, like, oh, we've got a room open. And Millie's like, but what about what's her face? And Mrs. Mears, like, book the tour, blah, blah, blah. And Millie keeps being like, but she said this, and she said this. And every time. Time, Mrs. Mears has to answer. Every time Mears answers, in parentheses, it says, shut up, Millie. And then each following line, it gets bigger and bigger till it's like, all caps with a million exclamation points. She goes, well, that show business. Shut up, Millie. Like, it's Scalman. He's like, I Don't I love that. Yeah, I really love.

[A]

I really like a cheeky stage direction as well, though.

[B]

Absolutely. What's my favorite song? I gotta say, I listen to you Happened a lot.

[A]

I also think what's it called is an amazing song. Song. The first one, the Changing Lives. Or no, Sorry, I lied. What's Dee Dee's song when she arrives in Indiana?

[B]

This is not about me.

[A]

Great. So funny. Really great lyrics.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Great song.

[B]

You know what? Some people have had issues with the miracle worker joke. And I'm like, that's funny.

[A]

It's funny because she's insensitive.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

If that was her joke at the end of the show, you might be like, oh, did Dee Dee learn anything? But it's her second song of the show. She hasn't learned anything. It's exactly the kind of thing that one would say.

[B]

When I was doing my research again for this, and I was looking online at the reaction during previews, it was very divided. There were people who were so on board with the show and loved it. And they're like, yes, it's got bumps, but I loved it. I cried, I laughed. I'll never forget Whizzer. One of the, you know, Broadway world people who always wrote at their first previews and wrote usually pretty insightful comments was like, this is floptastic. They're like, this is camp.

[A]

Do you know this person's real identity?

[B]

No, no, but they're. They're. Their handles like wizard. Marvin. Trina.

[A]

See, I would like. When you make a ton of money, will you please make a documentary about the message boards? Will you make like, an all that chat Broadway world documentary and, like. And, like, have some of these people expose who they are and, like, how they know your business.

[B]

Four years ago, I did do an episode with Melanie. God, I'm forgetting her last name. She. She's the one who did the, like, don't sing audience audition medley.

[A]

Oh, yeah.

[B]

Melanie, I'm so sorry. I love you. But we did an episode about Robbery World, and it got shared on the message boards and some people loved it. And some people were like, this is stupid. I didn't learn anything about the message boards. And he says, too much. And I said, I'm sorry.

[A]

I'm thinking, yeah, people really hate. And, like, even though we all say I'm in, like, I tried. The minute you listen to anybody else, you're like, that person must be the stupidest little shoulder walk the planet. It's like, okay, well, I guess I. I am.

[B]

I am. And I've got some tiggle bitties, but that doesn't.

[A]

That's not because I am the stupidest little ever walk the.

[B]

It's not because I say not in delusion here. But wizard was. I remember Wizard's review and I read it again where they were saying, you know, this is floptastic. Total camp. This, this show basically calling him like Diana before Diana ever happened. And then a lot of people were saying, oh, so this is so bad, it's good. And then people coming out saying, I don't think this is so bad, it's good. I just think it's genuinely good.

[A]

Yeah, totally.

[B]

I. And then the reviews were mixed, some positive and then a couple of raves like the Times. And they. And it lasted and it got some traction, but there were people who had issues with the off color jokes. But that's just sort of how it is now because if you establish a world where you have characters who don't learn anything or don't know anything, are very insensitive and make an off color joke, people go, well, the show is saying this. It's like, no, no. Just because the character says it doesn't mean that the show.

[A]

Dede's saying it.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

And it's also like, like of they even precede that joke with them talking about how desperate they are to make a change in the world. But they can't do anything too complicated.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Too hard to solve. Or anything that requires any knowledge of American politics.

[B]

And they're not even trying.

[A]

So funny.

[B]

And they're not trying to make a change in the world. To make a change in the world. They're making a change in the world for themselves. Yeah. To pivot the bad PR they got from their show closing on opening night. That is all it is. Which also I love the idea of like, oh, you think the rest of the world of cares theater show open on opening night.

[A]

I know. I will say they have a PR person guy with them and he has a line really early on in the show that's like, it's like, they don't hate you because the reviews are bad. They hate you because you guys are unlikable.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And I was like, so. So. Because there's no proof of that.

[B]

Yeah. Like we see that they're clearly up their own. But they, it's, it's. Yeah, but.

[A]

Yeah, but that's sort of like being like, Jesse Green didn't like the show because he's got a personal problem with you. It's like, well, I don't think that that's yeah.

[B]

Although I do remember when Charles Isherwood was like, I will no longer be reviewing Adam Rat plays because I just don't like his work.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Which is not saying he doesn't like him, but he's like, I. I was like, I'm gonna send someone else to do this because, like, I can't.

[A]

Honestly, I'm fair.

[B]

He's like, I don't like what he does, so I can't.

[A]

It's so. Yeah. And it's so unfair to be like, I'm a person who holds a ton of power, and I get to really kind of say, like, who buys tickets, who doesn't? And if I just know I don't like your thing, like, why am I gonna come and see the thing I know I don't. I don't like, and then tell people I didn't like it? And then your show's bad, like, or suffers from it? You know what I mean?

[B]

Like, every now and then you get the person who's like, I haven't liked a single thing you've done until now. But, yeah, no, this is not about me. Very good. And people had issues with that. But also, this is something that I'm having an issue with with young writers now as they come up through the musical theater ranks, is having to make it very crystal clear where the show stands with everything, all the time, all at once, always. And I'm like, let's continue to live in the gray, because that's life, and that's where drama lives. And, yes, the Prom wears its heart on its sleeve. It does make a big, bold message at the end. It is very campy, but it does live a little bit in that gray with those Broadway characters of, like, these are people who are in the right politically, but in the wrong morally.

[A]

Yes. And also they're in the right politically, but only because somebody told them to be.

[B]

If Dee Dee Allen were in a Broadway actress, she'd absolutely would be a Mrs. Green. Like. Like, it's. And it's what the PR guy says about Mrs. Green is like, if she didn't shop at Dress Barn, she'd totally be in pr.

[A]

Yeah. But it's like, I. It's so fun when women characters are somewhat reprehensible. It's kind of rare, and it's great. And people love to complain about how we don't give women enough fun material to sink their teeth into. And where are the campy, memorable performances? And why does this woman. This woman's in a comedy, but she didn't do any of the funny things. I agree with all those things.

[B]

Sure.

[A]

So then we simply must support the TD Allens. Do you know what I'm saying? If your note is, I don't want women to always have to play the straight man and doesn't get to have fun and doesn't get to be the bad guy and doesn't get to be the person who learns something. They're always the moral compass who's like, guys, you're acting crazy, then you have to let Dee Dee Allen be stupid.

[B]

Absolutely.

[A]

Dee Dee Allen's never met a deaf person. She has only seen the miracle work.

[B]

She's caused some people to go deaf.

[A]

See what I'm saying? Like, like that is true of that character. That's. I'm not saying that that's correct morally of the world, but she doesn't know anything about the deaf community. She has only seen the miracle work and been like, I didn't book that at Bay Street.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And so I'm mad at the Bay street theater. Like, that's it. That's. That's her only perspective on it.

[B]

It's when people look at 30 Rock and they're like, well, that's probably Jenna Maroney's problematic. Like, no. Jenna Maroney is a raging narcissist actress with many issues. That is who she is. The show is not saying what she's saying is true. What she's saying is right. Sometimes Jenna Maroney does make a good comment, but that's because a broken clock is right twice a day.

[A]

Right. And people always comment on that. They'll be like, oh, my God, I'm agreeing with Jenna.

[B]

Or like, or like, I can't believe I'm. I'm getting relationship advice from Tracy Morgan. And it's, it's. That's, that's where the humor comes. Where like, sometimes the crazy one or the story, the reality impaired one doesn't has, like, a bit of insight. That's a joke from Barbie, which, like, that she like that nut job, that reality challenged individual.

[A]

Oh, yeah.

[B]

That's actually a good example. By the way, is Sasha in Barbie someone who has really upstanding moral politics but is a raging and like, is just not a nice person? And she softens a bit. Her morals are still the same, but she softens as a human being and recognizes that people up well also she's.

[A]

Like seeing people's individual individuals and not as like monolith.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

Where it's like you represent a kind of femininity and womanhood that I Don't like.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

You are a person who happens to ascribe to these things that I may or may not agree with, or I don't like how you were, whatever, but you. But you're not. You don't represent. She called me a fascist.

[B]

I don't have control of railways with the flow of commerce. I've seen the movie so many times, but it's so great. But like, Sasha and D. Dee Dee, both of them are like, I have my ideals and I have my way of doing things. And I sit there and go, all I see is a girl you just made cry.

[A]

And it's also funny because it's like, how funny is it that Dee Dee comes in and says, all you hick rednecks don't know shit about the world, and then says something really insensitive. Yeah, well, and that's funny because it shows that she's.

[B]

And that's not better than them. That's the whole joke of Changing Lives reprise. And then we have to wrap things up because we started late and I have my next recording coming in. I know. No Changing Nights reprise. Which is after they learn about Emma and their show has closed. And, like, we're going to make it better and we're going to go in there, we're going to fix everything. And they just saying, like, we're going to tell everyone to be less prejudiced. And then they start name calling everyone from Indiana. Like those hillbillies, rednecks, blah, blah, who go. Their cousins. And as you said, like, if the joke is they aren't any better. Like, you know, yes, they want people to have rights and they technically don't discriminate in terms of like your civil rights, but they do still descript. And Mrs. Green even says so when they show up. She's like, you don't know anything about us. Like, what the fuck is wrong with you? And that's the joke. And you know that they're going for the wrong reasons because of the button of that reprise. When Barry says, now let's go help that dyke.

[A]

Yes. Also, like, we're gonna help that little lesbian whether she likes it or not.

[B]

Yep. And they changed it to let's go start a fight in the movie. And people have issues with them saying dyke at the end. I'm like, the point is that it's an issue that they are going for the wrong reasons. They're using. Using that word. They don't. They are so out of the loop.

[A]

Right.

[B]

And that's the point. There are things about the Problem that I think could be worked better. It has its bumps, but I. But I do think my ultimate judgment is that it's not necessarily problem. It. You know what? The prom is not problematic in terms of its morals, in terms of its social issues. I think it's problematic in terms of some of its execution in the actual writing, in the way that the term problematic should be used. Like we said at the beginning. Beginning. So that is my verdict. Ali Gordon.

[A]

Yeah. I think I share a similar thing where I don't entirely know if it wants to be an earnest drama or it wants to be a camp classic. I think I really admire its scope and its ambition in being like, this is a much more fun story if we bring these two different worlds together. It's way more fun than it just being New York or just being Indiana. I agree with that. I just think it's like all the things we said of just being like, there's a lot of characters, and a lot of them just exist to, like, say. To say what the audience thinks. Like, the poor principal just being like, no, Emma, those people in there are homophobic. And that's why they're saying what they're saying. And it's like, who are you telling, Emma? The person who knows because she's gay. Are you telling me the person who's been watching? So I know. Do you know what I'm saying?

[B]

Like, I would love to.

[A]

There's a lot of that.

[B]

I would love to watch you watch a show. That's all. That's all I'm gonna say.

[A]

I actually watch shows like this.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

I have, like, no reaction up here.

[B]

When I watch shows. I'm just constantly tilting my head side to side. You wanna know why? Because I know that people are watching me because I'm very famous and they want to know what my reactions are. And I will give them nothing.

[A]

I've had friends be like, I saw you in the audience, and you really seemed to not be having a good time. And I was like, what are you talking about? I was having the first blast. But I really.

[B]

You go to a place, I really think you lost me. You don't think, enough, we're done. But I also just want to say, for the record, I don't think James Corden is good in the prom. It is a bad performance.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

And I'm also not someone who says that only gay people should play gay roles. As sexuality is fluid, it's a spectrum. And you can learn more about yourself when you play other roles that are not like, you I don't want to speak too much, but I believe that Caitlyn has even said this about the prom. She identified as frustrated believe at the beginning of her journey.

[A]

Yeah, like learn more.

[B]

Yeah. And I think she. She identifies more as buyer fluid now and that. That can happen. James just did a terrible job but he. I do think he sounds good on Barry's going to prom. That's my one thing. It's the one thing. My one thing. My one thing I want thing. Ali Gordon, we got. Shut up. We gotta wrap this up because we started late and I have another episode coming in. Where can people find you if you want them to find you?

[A]

Don't find me.

[B]

Great. Fantastic. I love this for you. If you want to find me, I'm on Instagram only at.

[A]

When is this coming out? Is coming out soon.

[B]

Like the week before Thanksgiving or. I think this is actually coming the week of Thanksgiving.

[A]

Oh, then never mind. I'm doing a show in Chicago next month.

[B]

Yeah, no one cares. So like next month like December.

[A]

No, no, like I'm leaving on like Monday.

[B]

Yeah, no, no, you're. This won't be out in time and then.

[A]

And we close right before Thanksgiving.

[B]

No one cares. So yeah, you can find me on Instagram at Mac Koplik. Usual spelling. You can find ally on Instagram. Ms. Alice Nutting.

[A]

It's true.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

It's a show I did at the Manor.

[B]

That. It's a show you did do at the Manor. That's how you got your name. If you like the podcast, you can give us a nice five star rating or little review. We've gotten some new five star ratings. But no, but no reviews. We love having reviews again if you write me one. It doesn't have to be clever, doesn't have to be earnest. Could be whatever the you want it to be. I will read it on the pod with our little. With our lighting the piazza overture background music. You know, we know we love to do that. That Join us next week for. I'm not sure what yet because I've been recording a bunch of episodes out of order. I don't know what's coming next, but it'll be something good, I promise.

[A]

I believe you. Yeah, I believe you.

[B]

I believe you, Ali. This has been delightful.

[A]

It has been fun. This is fun to do it in person.

[B]

Yeah. I hope people like this episode. I don't know because when we get together it's like the world melts away and it's just us in a ball of fire and fury.

[A]

We'll cut A lot of this.

[B]

I'm not cutting up.

[A]

I don't cut a lot of those.

[B]

No. This is gonna be long. This is long form podcast now. We do long episodes.

[A]

This is long form podcast.

[B]

Yes, this is. I want it to be longer than Killers of the Flower Moon.

[A]

We felt. We see it, we feel. This is very npr. So let's give an NPR sign off.

[B]

Okay. Well, we also have to close out with a diva, remember?

[A]

Okay. My diva is Glass, James Corden.

[B]

Okay, now we'll close out with. We've done Beth, we've done Caitlyn, we haven't done an Izzy. But I don't think there's any solo audio for. Unless we do Alyssa Green. Do you want to give that shout out to your students?

[A]

Yeah. Shout out to all the teens who sing Alyssa Green for me.

[B]

I respect you and we're. And it's a huge slight against Ms. Dubose. Yes. So thank you for listening, everybody. Join us next week. I am Ira Glass. This is this American.

[A]

And I'm Terry Gross.

[B]

This is this American life.

[A]

I love this American life. Thank you so much. Please take us away.

[B]

Izzy is Miguela, or best friends. And I call her Dizzy.

[A]

Thank you. And you wish there was a world where you were simply free to live. And when people criticized you, you had no more shits to give. And in this other lifetime, when you tell yourself, be brave, you won't cave. That's the one thing I truly crave. But your feelings have to be phony. You're weight has to be tracked. If you don't like shaking pom poms, you'd better learn to act. Just have everything perfected.