The Tony Awards: A Celebration in Excellence w/ Eila Mell

Summary

Broadway Breakdown – "The Tony Awards: A Celebration in Excellence"

Host: Matt Koplik
Guest: Eila Mell, author of The Tony Awards: A Celebration of Excellence in Theater
Date: June 4, 2024

---

Overview

In this bonus episode, Matt Koplik sits down with theater author and journalist Eila Mell to dig into the history, drama, and memorable moments of the Tony Awards, timed to the release of Mell’s new book chronicling 75 years of Broadway’s biggest night. What follows is a lively, opinionated, and affectionate exploration of Tony lore—past, present, and future—fueled by personal stories, favorite performances, industry insights, and plenty of off-the-cuff banter.

---

Key Discussion Points & Insights

Eila Mell’s Journey to the Tony Awards Book

• Personal History with the Tonys

  • Eila describes her early fascination:

    "I was a theater kid... I couldn't believe that this was on television. I get to see scenes from shows. How amazing is that?" (02:41)

  • Her grandmother was her only family member interested in the arts, making their shared Tony-watching ritual special. (02:53)

• Genesis of the Book Project

  • Introduced to the project by Emilio Sosa, now chair of the American Theatre Wing, after previously working with him on Project Runway book:

    “When they decided they wanted to do a book celebrating 75 years... he brought me into the project.” (03:31)

  • The book came together in just 10 months, a whirlwind process for such an expansive subject. (04:09)

The Tony Awards: Favorite Memories & Iconic Moments

• Unforgettable Performances

  • Both are effusive about Neil Patrick Harris’ “Bigger” opening number (2013):

    "My favorite performance in the show is 'Bigger.' Neil Patrick Harris doing 'Bigger.' I love that." (05:45, Eila) “What I love about that ‘Bigger’ number… there is a shot of Debra Messing, jaw open, looking around… I don’t know how that shot hasn’t been an Internet meme.” (06:52, Matt)

  • Other legendary performances cited:
    • Jennifer Holliday’s “And I Am Telling You…” from Dreamgirls (Book interviewees’ favorite, per Eila) (06:15)
    • Michael Jeter’s showstopper from Grand Hotel (06:15)
    • “One Day More” from Les Misérables: “That was life-changing for me at the time...” (07:47, Eila)
    • The tradition of showcasing full scenes from plays—something both wish would return. (08:00–08:39)
    • Discussion of medleys, live vs. pre-filmed performances, and what makes Tony numbers “truly electric.” (09:02)

• Personal Connections

  • Matt appears in the book: “The last Tony Awards in the book is the 2022 Tonys. And there is a photo that I am in.” (04:41)
    • Eila: “Oh, my gosh. I’m so happy I chose that photo.” (05:29)

• Funny Live TV Moments

  • Matt describes Elizabeth Taylor’s infamous, boozy 1981 appearance:

    “[She] comes out to present Best Musical… and she’s clearly had a sip of champagne or two… she goes, wait, this isn’t an acceptance speech. What am I doing?” (11:02)

  • Eila recalls George Abbott’s comically slow trek to the stage in early Tony ceremonies. (12:03)

What’s Missing from Today’s Tonys?

• Loss of Intimate Community Feel

  • Both reminisce about earlier ceremonies in Broadway theaters, before the move to larger venues like Radio City:

    “It truly felt like a representation of the community. …when certain winners won, you got a sense of how beloved they were or how excited people were for those wins.” (26:00–27:03, Matt)

  • Eila relays stories from Judy Prince (Hal Prince’s wife) about the family picnic-like vibe under Alexander Cohen’s stewardship. (28:05)

• The Evolution—and Pitfalls—of Tony Broadcasts

  • Both agree: more award categories should be back on the main broadcast—especially design awards (13:03–13:40, Eila).
  • Matt’s “controversial” fix: “Start an hour earlier. …cut out all the fat of things…actually show the nominations for the categories that were missing.” (13:40)
  • They lament when producer credits and onstage crowds dilute the recognition of real lead producers. (29:01–31:19)

• The Host Problem

  • Eila: “One thing you can totally cut is the bits that the host does.” (15:20)
  • Both cite Kevin Spacey’s 2017 hosting as the nadir (“He went on and on doing stupid bits…so frustrating,” Eila, 15:29–15:39).
  • Praise for the 2023 “no bits” Tonys—stripped by necessity due to the writers strike:

    “This might be the best Tonys in years because there's just no bits.” (16:11, Matt) "It was better. Right. It was just people being themselves. I don't care about banter." (16:17, Eila)

Behind-the-Scenes: Writing the Book

• Favorite Interviews and “Juicy Bits”

  • Mell dishes on what didn’t make the book:

    “Some things I couldn’t actually put out there… [a] legendary actress gave a story about a co-star that was 100% true and then said later that it wasn’t…” (16:45)

  • Reveals Jason Alexander’s candid stories on Jerome Robbins:

    “He could be cruel to his dancers and actually killed some people’s careers just because he destroyed their confidence. But…that was the only way he knew how to work…” (17:26)

  • Jennifer Holliday’s intense account of working with Michael Bennett is covered. (17:10)
  • Guest interviews included Mel Brooks, Bernadette Peters, Angela Lansbury (just before her death), Chita Rivera, and Carol Burnett. (21:17–21:58)

• Carol Burnett & The Hal Prince Theater Campaign

  • Mell is working with Burnett to rename a Broadway house after Hal Prince:

    “She always wanted a theater named for Hal Prince. And so we created that campaign together... We may be doing a book together that has something to do with that.” (19:45)

  • Both agree: no director more deserves a namesake theater than Prince. (20:28–20:57)

The Meaning of the Tonys and its Community

• Enduring Themes

  • Mell notes the most consistent sentiment from interviewees:

    “Everyone values the sense of community and loves the collaborative effort that goes into putting on a show... a real difference [from TV and film].” (22:22)

  • The deep embrace felt by non-theater artists when welcomed at the Tonys (22:58).

• Favorite Tony Wins & Upsets

  • Avenue Q’s victory over Wicked (“that was huge,” B, 23:59), Nikki M. James’ ascent from retail to Tony winner for The Book of Mormon (24:22), Lin-Manuel Miranda’s always-moving speeches (25:23), Bernadette Peters for Song & Dance (25:37), Jackie Mason’s acceptance speech.
  • The magic of surprise wins (“I love upsets…” 25:05, “I want all surprises because then it’s fun.” 36:49, Eila)

Producers, Categories, and the Modern Show

• Producer Credits and Acceptance
  • Debate over listing dozens of co-producers as Tony winners. Mell wanted only lead producers recognized:

    "Being a lead producer on something is a much different job than just being a co-producer." (30:07)

  • Matt suggests bringing the mic to the lead producer instead of crowding the stage (32:08).

Looking Ahead to 2024 and Beyond

• Predictions and Hopes

  • Both relish years with no frontrunner—“I hope that there will be surprises. I think this year is wide open because I don't think there's any front runner for best musical.” (34:42, Eila)
  • They hope for upsets and exciting, concise ceremonies, less presenter banter, more energy for the nominated works. (34:54–35:52)
  • Reflect on how competitive energy can elevate the theatrical art form. (36:07)

• The Enduring Relevance of Rodgers & Hammerstein

  • Eila shares what she learned about their once-revolutionary status:

    "I think of them as like these old standard shows, but they weren't. They were like the Hamilton of their time..." (39:08)

  • Matt: “They really pushed boundaries...It wasn’t until the 90s when we had the dark revivals… that everyone went, ‘Oh, these shows kind of are sexy and daring.’” (41:01)

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On the Community of Broadway:

  • “You don’t get that on TV or film… but in theater, you’re all there. ...That makes a real difference.” (22:22, Eila Mell)

• On the Ceremony’s Evolution:

  • “The Tonys are never going to be the VMAs. They are for the nerds. So make it the most catnip for the nerds ever.” (15:09, Matt Koplik)

• On Accepting the Messy, Live TV Aspect:

  • “It's just a star with star quality having a love affair with the audience.” (11:15, Matt on Elizabeth Taylor)

• On Producer Credits:

  • “If 40 people all were giving their opinion? I know, they’d never get put up.” (31:02, Eila Mell)

• On the Addictive Thrill of the Tony Ceremony:

  • “There’s nothing like the Tonys. It's my Super Bowl.” (10:18, Eila Mell)

---

Important Timestamps

• Eila's first Tony memories & connection: 02:34–03:31
• Book creation & inside stories: 03:31–04:45, 16:45–18:46
• Favorite Tony moments/performances: 05:45–10:18
• On what’s changed and what’s missing (category awards/designers): 13:03–15:20
• Hosts & ceremony structure gripes: 15:20–16:17
• Community/family feel: 26:00–28:33
• Lead vs. co-producers onstage: 29:01–31:19
• Dream for Hal Prince theatre and future projects: 19:45–20:57
• Looking ahead/predictions for 2024: 34:42–36:49
• R&H and controversial classics: 39:08–41:01

---

Final Thoughts, Plugs, and Closing

Where to find Eila Mell:

• Instagram: @eilamell
  (“Easy to type, but hard to spell. It’s E I L A M E L L.” – 41:35)

Where to get the book:
Amazon, Barnes & Noble, select NYC bookstores, Museum of Broadway, Theater Circle.
"You can actually go and get it in person in the stores, which is amazing." (41:51)

Book title:
The Tony Awards: A Celebration of Excellence in Theater
Foreword by Audra McDonald

Dream Broadway Diva to play out the episode:
Kristin Chenoweth (45:51)

---

For Listeners Who Haven’t Tuned In

This episode is a fast-paced, affectionate, and occasionally irreverent love letter to Broadway’s biggest night—packed with juicy backstage stories, industry inside baseball, heartfelt appreciation for what makes Tony night singular, and eye-rolling at the ceremonies’ occasional missteps. Whether you’re a theater geek, casual fan, or Tonys first-timer, you’ll come away with new historical tidbits, a sense for how much the event means to the community, and excitement for the next curtain to rise.

Transcript

[A]

Think of the prestige. Think of the respect. No, no, no. Think of the Tony. Hello all you theater lovers both out and proud and on the DL. And welcome back to Broadway Breakdown, a podcast discussing the history und legacy of American theater's most exclusive address, Broadway. I am your host, Matt Koplik, the least famous and most opinionated of all the Broadway podcast hosts. And we have one bonus episode for y' all before yours truly goes off to London for a week. We've got a nice interview today with a wonderful author. She has a new book out called the Tony Awards, A celebration of excellence in theater. Please welcome to the breakdown, Ms. Isla Mel. Hello, Isla. How are you today?

[B]

I'm good. How are you, Matt?

[A]

I'm very well, thank you. Thank you for coming on. Your book is perfectly timed. It's out in stores now because the Tony Awards are coming up and we've been doing a series of episodes about the Tony Awards. So this is just, you know, it's serendipitous, I would say.

[B]

Well, that. Thank you. I'm so happy to be here. And I actually listened to all four hours of you ranking the whole entire season.

[A]

Get out.

[B]

I did. I mean, I. I listened at bedtime, so it took a few days, but I absolutely did.

[A]

Thank you. Listen, when people have told me, oh, I've listened to it and they say, well, you know, I didn't do it all in one sitting. I was like, I hope it wasn't all in one sitting. Yeah, like, well, I. Sometimes I listen to work. I'm like, yeah, well, then you gotta go do the work. You can't listen to me talk about my thing, my thinkings of, you know, Mary Jane and Mother play.

[B]

I can't even imagine how long it took you to rank them. Did you go back and forth and make changes?

[A]

Yeah, so what? I do. Because I'm insane. I was keeping a tally of everything that I had been seeing all season and was sort of ranking them throughout the year as I kept going. But then the week leading up to the episode, I kept going through it and I was like, I don't. I think that one's too high, that one's too low. And then literally, like 30 minutes before I started recording, I looked at the rankings of Cabaret and Tommy and they were flipped. I was like, oh, that's not right. Like, I didn't love this production of Tommy, but I liked it more than Cabaret. I was like, it. It should be above Cabaret. So, you know, like, as like I had that mic on, I was still second guessing. Myself, but, yeah, big epic episode. So Isla is a. Is an ally, everyone. In case you. I didn't get that already. So what is your. What is your personal history with the Tony Awards? How do they come into you. Your chat, as I like to call.

[B]

It, in my life or this project? Which. Which would you rather?

[A]

Life. Life first and then project.

[B]

All right, so I was a theater kid, as probably everyone listening to the show was. It was just. I think I just found it. No one else in my family really cared about anything in the arts, except my grandmother. She liked the Tony Awards, but she didn't introduce them to me. But when I found them, I had someone to talk to about them, so we would follow it together. So that was cool. But really, it was just all my own thing. I just found it and I fell in love. I couldn't believe that this was on television. I get to see scenes from shows. How amazing is that? So that. You know. And then I grew up and have lived my whole life in New York City, so I grew up going to the theater, so that was incredible, too. So it's been something that's been very much a part of my life.

[A]

And then this project in particular. How did they come into your life?

[B]

Well, about. I don't know, maybe 10 years or so ago, I wrote a book called Project Runway, the show that changed fashion. And so I worked with the show to do that book. And one of the designers on the show at the time was Emilio Sosa, and he and I became very close friends, and we've been friends ever since. And now he's the chair of the American Theater Wing. And when they decided they wanted to do a book celebrating 75 years of Tony winners, he brought me into the project.

[A]

That's wonderful. So how long did this project take for you to. From, like, Inception to. To Final Product?

[B]

Well, so the wing got the idea to do the book very late. It was already the 75th year, so there was a really fast turnaround. So we did it in 10 months.

[A]

Okay, that's. Yeah, that is definitely a whirlwind.

[B]

Yeah, it has.

[A]

And. And it's. And it's a series of interviews and photographs, and I. I was actually at Barnes and Noble a few weeks ago and came across and did a little scan of it. Fun fact for you and some of my listeners. The last. Yeah, the last Tony Awards in the book is the 2022 Tonys. And there is a photo that I am in.

[B]

Wait a minute. Which photo?

[A]

It's the photo of the New York City gay Men's chorus singing their honor to Angela Lansbury. I am. I am front and center, baby.

[B]

Oh, that's so great. How amazing. Yeah.

[A]

Thank you. I'm a member of the New York City Gay Men's Chorus. It was a very cool situation. I had just left my temp job a week before, and they emailed all of us. They're like, hey, this amazing opportunity is happening. You know, send in your response now. But, like, no, you need to be available during the day, Tuesdays and Wednesdays, which, like, half the course is like, well, I work. And I went, I don't work right now. I could do it. So, yeah, it was really cool. But I. I flipped through, like, on a whim, just going, it's not going to be in there. But maybe it is. So I am in the book.

[B]

That's incredible. Oh, my gosh. I'm so happy I chose that photo.

[A]

I'm so happy you did, too. Again, guys, she's an ally. What. What is a favorite Tony memory for you? Like, a moment in the show, in many of the Tonys that you can think about.

[B]

So there are so many. My favorite performance in the show is bigger. Neil Patrick Harris doing bigger. Yeah, I love that. And I actually have in the book, he told me about doing it, what it was like performing it. And then I talked to Lin Manuel Miranda and he told me what it was like writing it. So it's funny, you get two different perspectives on that. That's my favorite moment. But what I learned was that everyone who I interviewed for the book, there's a lot of. A lot of Tony winners in the book, and half of them were their favorite Tony moment, was Jennifer Holiday singing and I'm Telling you. And the other half was Michael Jeter.

[A]

In Grand Hotel, Both absolutely iconic performances. What I love about that bigger number, which for anyone who can immediately make the connection, it was after the Tony Awards, had been at the Beacon Theater for, like, two, three years, something like that, and came back to Radio City Music hall. And, you know, Neil Patrick Harris did this whole number that encapsulated all the nominees that year. So it was like Matilda, Kinky Boots, Pippin. And it ended. Yeah. And ended with everyone sort of all over the theater. What I love most about that number, in addition to the fact that it is genuinely a wonderful opening number, there is a shot of Deborah Messing, which is like, jaw open, looking around, like, because everyone's all in the aisles and whatnot. And she's there. She was dating Will Chase. It's like, it's One of those things. I'm like, I don't know how that shot hasn't been an Internet meme because it's just so. It's so fantastic.

[B]

Oh, my gosh. Right? Like, the crowd just can't. They can't believe what's happening because, yeah, he's on stage and then two seconds later, he was in the back of the house.

[A]

It's. It was so, so creative. And also he had. It was. They had a dig in the Les Mis movie because he had them do a close up on his face. He's like, you don't need close ups to know you're singing live. We do it eight shows a week. Go for it. And then he does it. And it was. It was. Yeah, it was really fantastic. And I mean, Jennifer Holiday, obviously an iconic performance. And Grand Hotel, another iconic one. Do you have other favorite performances besides bigger? Like ones that stick in your brain?

[B]

I love the Les Mis one Day more. That was life changing for me at the time being, you know, very young then. That was amazing. I liked when they did scenes from the plays. That was fun. You do, too. Thank you.

[A]

I've been saying this for years.

[B]

I know. I wish that would come back.

[A]

Yeah. I think I'm hoping that they're figuring it out again. They definitely have been giving plays a bit more airtime the last two years. Not as well as I would like, but more so. And this year, especially, because the plays have been just rocking it, I'm like, can we really give them their due?

[B]

This is the year of the play, for sure.

[A]

That's what I've been saying. Isla. I'm like, I'm sorry. We have been given stereophonic Mary Jane, appropriate, Pearly, Victorious, An Enemy of the People, Ja Jaw's African hair braiding. And we're not going to give them 20 minutes of airtime.

[B]

I know. We really. We really should.

[A]

Yeah. There's that one. There's that wonderful scene from Prelude to a Kiss with Timothy Hutton and Mary Louise Parker. That's a wonderful performance.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And One Year into the Wood did a montage of numbers. I didn't like that. I like it to be live. I like it to be the way it is in the play. I don't want them putting together anything special for the Tonys.

[A]

I don't. I don't mind Medley's that much. What I mind is I think woods might have been the first show to do this. Don't quote me on this, everybody. But it might have been because the original production of into the Woods. And then it happened a couple more years after that was like, it would be a combination of live and pre filmed. They filmed like certain things in the actual theater and then they would cut to something on the Tony stage. Like Secret Garden did that. Tommy did that. And I'm sitting here going, no, no, no, no, no. Like, much as I enjoy Tommy, that OG Tommy, like, the best performance of that night was Kiss of the Spider Woman because it was all on that stage. You weren't. There was no quick, you know, fancy editing. It was Cheetah and Brendan, all of them. And yeah, I love that. I also love the. I mean, I'm. I'm biased, but in 94, the opening was a section from each revival of a musical nominee with Victor Garber sort of singing as the devil from in between them. But so you had she Loves Me and Grease and Carousel and Damn Yankees and it was just so much fun because each one was so very different and all very exciting and very much showcased what made those revivals so good. And I mean, that Damn Yankees one where like those baseball boys are back flipping and Vicki Lewis is singing her face off. It's just so fun. So good.

[B]

Yeah, yeah. There's nothing like the Tonys. It just. It's my Super Bowl.

[A]

Absolutely. I'm gonna question this to you, Isla. Do you recall in your research or in your times watching the Tonys? I believe it's the 1981 Tony's the year. It's the year 42nd street, okay. Elizabeth Taylor comes out. She is just on the Little Foxes, so she's like, you know, the toast of the town. And she doesn't win that night because she was never going to, but she comes out to present best musical for 42nd street and she's clearly had a ship, a sip of champagne or two, but the audience doesn't care. They're so in love with her. And she like is going on about how much she's so happy to be a part of the community and they've all been so welcoming. And she goes, wait, this isn't an acceptance speech. What am I doing?

[B]

And that's so funny. I don't remember that, but I definitely have seen it because I watched every single year, but. But I don't remember that. There's so many amazing moments, but that's hilarious.

[A]

It's one of my go to memories, which, I mean, I wasn't alive for it, but when I watch clips, it's one of my favorites because it's just a star with star quality having a Love affair with the audience. And like it. All she's doing is presenting this musical. But I'm pretty sure the clip is like six minutes long because. And then she like can't really read the nominees because she has to list all the producers on the envelope. And she gets to. I think she gets to Woman of the Year. And she mispronounces Nederlander. She calls him Jimmy Needleheimer. And everyone realizes what she's done. And she's realized what she's done. She goes, I'm sorry, Jimmy.

[B]

That's so great.

[A]

I love it. I mean, do you have favorite moments like that in. In Tony's. In all of your research of watching just things of that nature?

[B]

Yes. There's a really old clip. It's. It was actually before they aired on TV. But you can see like from 1960 to 1967, there are videos out there. And George Abbott trying to make his way to the stage is really funny. And then he makes some comment about it. You know, George Abbott had been a name to me growing up, but I never actually saw any video of him. To see him actually as a person was interesting.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

These stories. But, you know, I never saw him animated the same.

[A]

I think the only video I've ever seen of him was actually that 94 Tony's. When they do all the revival stuff and then Gwen Verdon and Maureen Stapleton bring him out. But at that point, you know, he's 100. It's not. Yeah. It's not the Mr. Abbott that they all.

[B]

Exactly this. He was young and strong and, you know, powerful.

[A]

Exactly. What are something. Besides performances from plays? What are some things about the Tonys of Tony's past that you miss, that you wish we would have again?

[B]

Who I. Well, definitely the plays. Yes. But I don't know because I feel like they just. They keep evolving. But I do wish that they would have all the awards on the one show. I don't like that it's split up. You know, I wrote a book about design on Broadway, so I'm very much in designers camps. And so I. Those are not lesser awards. I wish that they were on the same CBS broadcast or whoever's broadcasting. And it's not CBS anymore, but you know what I mean.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

You know, not in that extra hour that people have to search for.

[A]

Yeah. I mean, obviously it's tricky because there we have had more categories over the years than from the 60s, 70s, 80s. So it's harder to jam pack it all into three hours. But I say, you know, take a Note from the Oscars this year. Start an hour earlier. Yeah, give us four. And, like, this is where I'm going to be a little controversial here. Cut out all the fat of things of, like, you know, Medley's honoring the 94th anniversary of the person who did the thing for no reason. Cut out perform. Cut out performances from the shows that aren't nominated because they want to perform and actually show the nominations for the categories that were missing. And if you're going to do any kind of film montages, I say bring back the montages they did in 2000, 2001, showing you design, like, why it's important.

[B]

Yes. That was something they used to do in the past. They would give you a glimpse into what designers did. That was fantastic.

[A]

It was wonderful. And they. They did it with score, too. I'm pretty sure. Like, the. The 2,000 Tonys, they had. I think they had it right because those film montages they show you of, like, Crowley's designs for Aida and Robin Wagner sets for Kiss Me Kate and explaining how they came to their concepts and carrying it out, I'm like, that's so exciting. It makes you want to see the show. You want to see it live now.

[B]

And just know the thought that went behind the design. There's. It's. There's so much backstory that you never know just seeing the show, but when you know what the idea was, you can sometimes see it in a different light.

[A]

Absolutely. And the Tonys are never going to be the VMAs. They are for the nerds. So make it the most catnip for the nerds ever. And you're actually going to grow the nerd fan base from there.

[B]

Yeah, for sure. And one thing that you can totally cut is the bits that the host does. Do you remember the year that Kevin Spacey hosted?

[A]

It stays with me forever.

[B]

Oh, my God. He went on and on doing stupid bits. And we're missing, like, the creative awards that we could have seen. So frustrating.

[A]

So frustrating. Well, because some hosts, like, want to make sure you remember that they are the host. I'm like, your job is to keep the ceremony going. Like, you open the thing, keep it moving. That's I. Last year for the Kimberly Akimbo Tony's, because it was the writers strike, there was trepidation of whether it was going to happen, how they were going to do it, and they're like, okay, well, you can't. Nothing written, so everything's got to be off the cuff and online. Everyone's like, listen, I support the writers in. The writers strike. But like, this might be the best Tonys in years because they're just no bits.

[B]

It was better. Right. It was just people being themselves. I don't care about banter that's written for them.

[A]

No, no. I mean, 90% of the time the banter is terrible. Occasionally you get a good joke here and there, but mostly it's just, it's just filler. Get back to the things we love. Yeah, yeah. So with this book, with all of the interviews you've done, were there any particular insights that you found really juicy? And obviously you can't tell all of them because we want people to buy the book, but maybe one or two crumbs for people in case they're bye curious.

[B]

That's, let's see. Well, juicy. Wow. Yes. I mean, yes. There's so much that some things I couldn't actually put out there. I know some legendary actress gave a story about a co star that was 100% true and then said later that it wasn't. It was full of mis, you know, misleading quotes and it wasn't, it was exactly the way she told it to me, but I took it out. Of course. Jennifer Holiday talks a lot about Michael Bennet. It's really, really fascinating and just what it was like for her as this 18, 19 year old working with this famous director and how, you know, the relationship with was, he was her mentor but also, you know, sometimes he would overshare with her and make her concerned for his health and, you know, so that's that else. Yes, Jason Alexander was very candid about Jerome Robbins and how he could be cruel to his dancers and how he actually killed some people's careers just because he destroyed their confidence. But he said at the same time that was the only way he knew how to work. He wasn't trying to be cruel. He, you know, he thought he was loving and people did love him but you know, there was that side to him. So. Yeah, there's a lot of dirt in there too, which is fun.

[A]

Absolutely. Yeah. I, I have some theories about the actress you're, you're talking about and what co star. But I'm not going to say it on Mike, but actors tend to overshare when you kind of get them going and it's only after the fact that they go, oh, I think I said something I shouldn't have said.

[B]

Exactly. And that's totally what it was because I record everything. So I could have played it back for her and said, well, you did say it exactly like this. But I just cut it because that's what she wanted.

[A]

And, you know, absolutely, you could have called a RuPaul, said, don't blame the edit that you said what you said. But, no, you're a little classier than RuPaul, so we appreciate that.

[B]

Well, when I did the Project Runway book, I will tell you that this one designer on the show refused to be interviewed, even though almost every single person on the show was interviewed. And then she was really upset when the book came out, and I said, I gave you every opportunity to tell your story. And all I did was report exactly what she did on the show, which she had a bad attitude on the show. And I said so. And then she didn't like it in print. She could have told her side, but she chose not to. So, you know, carried on.

[A]

Exactly when. When you refuse to make your bed, you can't be mad when you show up that night and it's all ruffled.

[B]

Right, exactly. So.

[A]

So we digress is, do you have any future projects coming up after this one? Any other books on the. On the horizon?

[B]

I have a couple of proposals in the works, but I can't really say right now, but someone who I met through this project, through the Tony book, and became close with is Carol Burnett. She and I, when we did her interview for the book, we just got to talking, and she was telling me how she always wanted a theater name for Hal Prince. And so we created that campaign together to get a theater renamed for Hal Prince. And we're still working on that. And so we may be doing a book together that has something to do with that. So we'll see that that's in the works. But, you know, it's very early, very early that.

[A]

That I'm. I'm hopeful for that because there are definitely some theaters named for people that I'm wonderful as those people were not sure if they needed a theater and.

[B]

How friends theater anyway.

[A]

Not a Broadway theater. Yeah. And Hal Prince is. Was so instrumental to the progress of the American musical that you just cannot.

[B]

No, what he contributed was so far and above what so many people have done, and there's never been a theater name for a director. So it's time.

[A]

And if ever there was a director, it should be him. Yeah. Of all of them. I mean, I know you're a very professional professional, but were there any interviewees that you had to work very hard to keep your common, cool, collected self together while interviewing them?

[B]

It's so funny, not when I was doing it, but in retrospect, I would stand back or in anticipation, like, I got to talk to Mel Brooks. And for me, that was enormous. I mean, he's a total legend.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Bernadette Peters, Carol Burnett, you know, these. But, you know, when you're. When it's part of your job. Right. You don't think about it, but it's only later when people ask you about it that you think, that was really cool. You know, like, I got to do that. And it was never lost on me. I never, ever took anyone for granted. It was just amazing that I got to talk to all these amazing legends. We got Angela Lansbury just days before she died.

[A]

Oh, wow.

[B]

Which was incredible. And Chita Rivera is in the book. A lot of people that we've lost are in there. So I'm just very grateful that we have their words in there.

[A]

Absolutely. That's. That's invaluable to have those words. Did you find any common themes from people when they. When talking about their time with the Tony Awards? Any, you know, musings that kind of kept popping up with different people?

[B]

Well, sort of, yeah. I mean, the biggest thing is that everyone values the sense of community and loves the collaborative effort that goes into putting on a show. So that's the main thread, because you don't get that. You don't get that on TV or in film, because not everyone is there at the same time. But in theater, you're all there. Everyone has to be at every performance. And so that makes it a real difference. And a lot of people who come from outside theater, you know, like TV and movie people, they're so grateful when they feel embraced by the theater community.

[A]

Yeah. Like. Like Liz Taylor. And actually, who was it? It was. Was watching Steve Gutenberg, of all people, give Irene Worth her Tony for Lost in Yonkers. And he was so complimentary. Just like, he opened up the envelope, he goes, ah, what a privilege to be able to give her this award. I was like, I know Steve Cooper.

[B]

I know the Cocoon guy.

[A]

Guy from all the police academies. Him.

[B]

Yeah. Really? Who knows?

[A]

The dad from It Takes Two and one of the three Men of the Baby. Him. I'm. I'm. I'm a. I'm a Gutenberg fan. But I was like, I don't. I don't even know if he's ever done Broadway.

[B]

I don't know. I don't think so, but may maybe off Broadway.

[A]

He's just a fan of Irene Worth, which, I mean, if you ever get a chance to watch her at the library or you can even watch her performance in Happy Days on YouTube. She's. She's incredible. She was incredible.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Yeah. Are there. What are some of your favorite Tony wins of. Of Tony world history?

[B]

Well, I mean, just because it was such a great upset when Avenue Q won, that was huge. So that was big. I. You know, I mean. Well, on a personal note, when people that you know and care about win, that's fantastic. But that's not what you're really asking, right? It's different.

[A]

It's all encompassing any of them.

[B]

I love when people are so happy. Like Nikki M. James. I was so happy when she won because a few months before that win, I went to an event at Barney's. It was a Fashion Night out event. So it was this big thing where the fashion community took over the city for a night. And I had seen her and all shook up. And she was working behind the counter selling lipstick. And I went over to her and I said, you know, I thought you were great, and all shook up. Congratulations. And she said, oh, I'm just starting rehearsal tomorrow for a new show written by the south park guys, so I hope it does well. And then she won. So I always felt like I just wanted to be in her corner, and so she didn't have to work at Barney's anymore. That was fantastic.

[A]

That is absolutely wonderful. Yeah. I mean, I love upsets. I. And that was also kind of an upset because Laura Benanti had won sort of everything going up to it. And so she was. It did feel like Nikki was genuinely surprised when she won. And so that just makes you. Makes your heart melt when you watch someone genuinely surprised and happy to. Happy to win.

[B]

And then every time Lin Manuel Miranda wins, his speeches are so great that you're just thrilled for him. There's so many, though. I mean, really over so many years, it's like they just all pile up. Jackie Mason had a great speech. That was fun. I love Bernadette Peters. So I was so happy when she won for Song and Dance. You know, I mean, there's a million.

[A]

Yeah. It's also so with, you know, having to watch all of the Tonys for this book and, you know, I'm assuming you watch them in chronological order. Did you sort of go, no, I.

[B]

Watched them in chronological.

[A]

Okay, so this is something that I've talked about on the podcast a lot, and you can agree, agree, or disagree, but I. I miss when the Tonys were in a Broadway theater. Not, you know, I. I listen. I love Radio City Music hall hair toss. I performed There. But when it was a Broadway theater, it meant that only a certain number of people could be in the room. And it's not about exclusivity so much as it truly felt like a representation of the community. It was all the people who had worked that season who knew everybody. And so when certain winners won, you got a sense of how beloved they were or how excited people were for those wins. The two that I talk about all the time. And it's when Dorothy Loudon wins best Actress for Annie and when Tyne Daly wins for Gypsy, Especially the mezzanine, because the mezzanine is more like where the fans are or where, you know, lower level management and actors go. But you just like when they get on stage and you hear the cheers from the mezzanine. That's how you go, oh, that's. That's the energy behind that win.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And when it's Radio City Music hall, much as it's fun to have it be so epic, it's a lot of people can get tickets for it. And so, like. Yeah. And so the example I always give is, so I've actually been to Tony's twice again. Hair flip. The first time I didn't perform, so it was a Tony's, in my opinion. But it was. It was the 2018 Tony. So it was the band's visit year, where they just swept. And when we were there, you know, people cheer for each nominee as they're announced and then they give the winner. And for all the categories, anytime Mean Girls or spongebob had a nomination, the theater erupted. But it was again like the upper levels, where was people buying tickets to see the show. So it was just that SpongeBob and Mean Girls had a larger online fan base and Ben's visit would have sort of like a cute little applause and then it would win. And I just sat there going like, I. I wish that this was in the Shubert right now and it was only Broadway people. Because you would get a better sense of actually how the community feels about the band's visit, not just the fact that it's won something.

[B]

Right. Well, that, that I did find in talking to people who used to go years and years ago, like Hal Prince, I spoke to his wife Judy, and she said, when Alexander Cohen produced the Tony Awards, it was like that, and it was like going to, like a family picnic. He would show up and he would be there and he would ask people, how was your summer? Or what's going on with you? It was very personal. And it was just the family, right? It was just the community. So a few people mentioned that they missed those days.

[A]

Yeah. And I would like us to get back to it. We haven't. This will be our second Tony's post, Covid, not at Radio City Music hall. And they are in smaller theaters, but they're still large. The Koch Theater is a large theater. And apparently, I don't know if you can confirm or deny this. Apparently there's a rumor going around from Broadway Journal that the Tonys have limited the number of producers that can go up to accept the award for shows.

[B]

So I don't know anything about it. So I. I can neither confirm nor deny. But I think that's great because I hate. Thousand people go up. When I was writing the book, this is the thing that was a big deal to me. I wanted to really. I ideally wanted to only list the lead producers who won. And I talked to producers. I talked to Jill Furman, who produced Hamilton and In the Heights, and I said, what's your opinion on it? Does it bother you when people who really didn't produce the show, who just contributed to the show, when they come up, too? And, you know, she. It didn't bother her, but she would like some acknowledgment as to who the people were that really spearheaded and really did the job of producing the show. So then when I checked with the wing, the American Theatre wing, I said, can we limit it to those people? And they were like, there's no way of officially knowing who did what. So we listed every single producer. And listen, I respect all of them because they all contributed and made the show possible. But it's. Being a lead producer on something is a much different job than just being a co producer.

[A]

Oh, absolutely. I'm sure that they sat in on meetings from time to time, but a lot of people who contribute, let's be blunt here, money to a show for the producer title, those are not people doing the work of a David Merrick or of a Hal Prince or a Lynn Meadow who actually oversee the production and collaborate with everyone involved and help steer the ship.

[B]

And in some cases, like with Jill Fuhrman, she found the talent. She found Lin Manuel Miranda performing in the basement of the Drama bookshop.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And I think that's. Yeah, it's something that we have to acknowledge and really lift up, because if people want to be involved in Broadway works, that's fantastic. I'm like, maybe more than just a checkbook, like, don't you want to be in the room sometimes and learn more about it? And really be involved with it. Do you really just want to give a check so you can be on the stage? Like, if you want to be in it? Like, be in it.

[B]

Yeah. Although can you imagine if, like, 40 people all were giving their opinion? I know that never get put up.

[A]

Exactly.

[B]

It's different now than before because in the older days, you know, there would be like, one or two producers and that was it.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

So, you know, it was a much different form of producing back then, I guess.

[A]

Yeah, well, because investors were investors and they didn't. But then something broke where it became harder to get investors, and it's like, well, what if we gave you a producer credit, like, and you got to go to the Tony, sweetening the deal? And I think that's also just because financing shows has become so much more expensive and you're less likely likely to see any of your money. So it's, well, how much bang for your buck can we give you if we can't guarantee a return on your investment? So I absolutely understand it, and I'm not trying to vilify anybody, but I am also, like, if this is the situation we're in, like, let's maybe also, you know, put a little more, I don't know, creativity and effort.

[B]

And also you could cut like 20 minutes off the show if you don't have to wait for half the audience to get up on the stage 1000%.

[A]

Or just bring the mic to them to the know where that lead producer is sitting, run up to them with the mic and be like, here, go. Start talking now.

[B]

That's a great idea. Like a Q and A.

[A]

Absolutely. And just brings so much energy and dramatics to it. It's like, we got go, go, go. It's like Black Hawk Down. Go, go, go, go, go.

[B]

But do you remember in the COVID year, they only let two people go? Was great.

[A]

It was wonderful. And it was in a Broadway theater. It was at the Winter Garden.

[B]

Yeah, right.

[A]

Yeah, that was. That was a fun Tony's. That one as well. I mean, it was odd. Obviously. It was a Covid, what I call it the COVID Gas leak year, where unfortunately, everyone who did win sort of has that asterisk next to their win of like, they won during the COVID Tonys.

[B]

No, they're well deserved.

[A]

All of them. Isla. All of them. Well, yeah, that's all we got to say. I listen, but I feel that way about years where there was. Where was no Covid. So sometimes I'll. I'll remember a win happened. I'LL go, oh, right, you.

[B]

Right. It's like, how did that happen?

[A]

I know, but that's sort of what's so fascinating is. And I love talking about this with people like, and it's the Oscars, too. I listen to all these Oscar podcasts where they. They love to sort of dive into the years of certain ceremonies and talk about sort of what was in the zeitgeist, what was really exciting to voters. It used to be with the Oscars, like, Best Picture kind of was representative of what was the big. What were the biggest movies of the year. And, you know, one of the years that they talk about is the Sound of Music, which we all now love and know is this, you know, impenetrable classic. At the time, it was kind of railed over the coals by critics. This is sappy. This is dumb. And it was only because the movie was such a juggernaut that it ended up riding its way to the Oscars because it was the Titanic year where it was like, you know, you can't deny that this movie has made, adjusted for inflation, a billion dollars in America alone.

[B]

Yeah, yeah.

[A]

But so with Tony's, Sometimes it's fun to look at it and go, okay, what were. What were voters thinking at the time? What was the history going on here? What was the legacy of all that? Which is also why I love to look at those old ceremonies. Because when it is in a Broadway theater and you hear the responses, you go, oh, that. That's what had. Had the heat, you know?

[B]

Yeah, absolutely. I love that.

[A]

Yeah, me too. What are some of your hopes for this? Tony's. As you now, as, first of all, as you have a long history with the Tonys, but also now that you know how the sausage is made, what are you looking forward to seeing this year? And what are maybe like, secret hopes you might have? Not even for winners, just like for the ceremony itself.

[B]

Well, I hope that it will. I hope that there will be surprises. I think this year is wide open because I don't think there's any front runner for best musical.

[A]

Nope.

[B]

The only thing that I think is somewhat easy to predict is the merrily wins that I think are inevitable. So that's boring, but I think they're deserved. But it still makes it boring because.

[A]

Yeah. You like the excitement of what if.

[B]

Yes. So for me, this is my favorite kind of year, where it could be Hell's Kitchen, it could be the Outsiders, it could be, you know, we don't know.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

So I love that. So I love when there's upsets. I loved appropriate, but I really love Pearly victorious and I love that team. So I don't know, there's. There's a real race there. I hope that. I just hope it's exciting. I hope presenters are great and get on and off pretty quickly. You know, really, for me, it's about that moment where you see the five little faces in the screens and, you know, and who wins. It's just so exciting for me. I'm very competitive, so I like that.

[A]

Yeah, listen, a little competition never hurt anyone. It's when you maybe define yourself by it that it gets a little tricky. But when you have like that little bit of a competitive edge, I don't know, it. It pushes you to. To do better work on your part and maybe it convinces other people to do a little bit better.

[B]

Yes. It makes it so much fun.

[A]

Yeah. No, I love that I. This year is interesting because it could be so wild or it could be so predictable, and I'm hoping it's not super predictable.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

The. The year of Hamilton. All my friends and I really like to say, before every winter that they got, we were like, but like, what if this one goes to shuffle along? Like, it was just always that. And we like, it got down to best musical and we're like, but guys, what if it's Bright Star just every time? Because we just wanted it out, out there in the vain hope that something exciting was going to happen because it was cool to watch something dominate. But also you're like, I don't know.

[B]

Yeah, right.

[A]

You always want, like a little surprise.

[B]

Totally. I want all surprises because then it's fun.

[A]

Absolutely. And I mean, the fun. The, the most fun ones are when it's a surprise that still feels deserved. Like the year of Fun Home when Ruthie and Miles won and it was sort of down to. Everyone thought it was down to Judy Kuhn and Cindy Lucas for Fun Home. And the general thinking is that they kind of split the vote and Ruthie was able to win the award. And that's probably true, but also, like, I'm not mad Ruthie has that win either.

[B]

Good for her. She's in the book. She was one of the people I got to talk to. I mean, she deserved it.

[A]

She was wonderful. That was a wonderful category. I was. I was a big Fun Home Stan that year. And I was just. I was more thrilled that three women from Fun Home were in the category at all. And then to have Ruthie and Vicky Clark for Gigi, I'm like, yeah, no, all These women I'm obsessed with.

[B]

Yeah, they're all fantastic. I know.

[A]

Get them all the roses. Ruthie's Western people, Funny for me, was what won her the Tony. A lot of people look at her as something wonderful. I'm like, uh, the way she took that song and made you understand what it was Oscar Hammerstein was saying was when for decades, no one was able to do it. Like, yeah. Brava.

[B]

Ah. Well, when you get the book, read her interview, because she talks about auditioning for King and I and how she had the character all wrong at first. And Shearer got mad at her and sent her home and said, this is not who this woman is. He told her, she's Imelda Marco, she's Hillary Clinton. She's. You know, she has all these things to say, but she just can't say them. And that's what you bring to this. And she came back and got the part.

[A]

I loved that. I mean, I don't love that he.

[B]

Got mad, but in her, you know, to help her.

[A]

Well, yeah, exactly. You know, making her understand. No, no, no, no. There's power here. That's something that I've always felt with a lot of women in Rogers and Hammerstein musicals that for years, people never clocked was like, these women are very smart. They don't always make great choices. But that's also because that's how drama works.

[B]

And the time, too, that they lived in.

[A]

Yeah. You have to take into account who they are in their. In their time and what class they're in and their backgrounds like that. I mean, the women of Oklahoma and Carousel are so outspoken. It's just that their circumstances maybe aren't the most progressive. And some. Some of them make great choices, some of them make terrible choices. And. And that, again, that's how human beings are.

[B]

Right. Well, what I learned during the book, I mean, I know all the Rogers and Hammerstein shows, but what I didn't realize is that so Bart Shear, you know, he's. He knows everything about them. So through him and Andre Bishop, like, I really learned that they were actually controversial for their time. I didn't. You know, I think of them as, like, these old standard shows, but they weren't. They were like, the Hamilton of their time, and they were taking on subjects that no one else did, you know, like. And also, Oklahoma was the first time a character died in a musical on stage.

[A]

Yeah. They really pushed boundaries. And there's a wonderful book called Something Wonderful about them, Their lives and their collaboration and their legacy. First of all, both Complicated men. But one of the things I love about Oscar Hammerstein was that his mother was a raging feminist. And she actually this, this part is sad. She had died when he, I think was like 15, 16. She died from a at home self abortion. And. But her, but that her impact on him was so great. Which is why he always wanted to make sure that the women in his shows were very outspoken even, even if they were messy and conflicted, like they were not dumb. They were always steadfast. But what had happened with them was once the shows closed and the movies were made, because the movies were made was still during the Hays code. So they had, they had to change a lot of things. Billy Bigelow doesn't kill himself. He falls on his knife. And certain sexual innuendos had to get cut out. And everything was given a nice little golden haze. So for the 60s, 70s and 80s, everyone, oh, you know, good old fashioned Rogers and Hammerstein, creaky and dusty. And then it wasn't until the 90s when we had the dark revivals of everything that everyone went, oh, these shows kind of are sexy and daring.

[B]

Hey, yeah, we don't think of them that way anymore. But they were. So that, that was really fascinating to me.

[A]

Yeah, no, absolutely. And I think Ruthie wouldn't complain about it either, considering she has a Tony and a fabulous career post King and.

[B]

I. Oh my gosh.

[A]

Yeah, yeah. What a, what a, what a wonderful lady she is. I'm interested to see what she does next. Isla, this has been delightful. Thank you so much for, for coming on to talk about all this with me.

[B]

Oh, this was so much fun.

[A]

Quick questions. Where can people find you if you want them to find you online?

[B]

Oh, I would love for them to find me on Instagram at Ilamel. It's easy to, easy to type, but hard to spell. It's E I L A M E L L. Fantastic.

[A]

And then where can people order the book if they want to order the book?

[B]

So it's on Amazon, it's on Barnes Noble. You can actually go and get it in person in the stores, which is amazing. It's at the bookshop, it's at the Museum of Broadway, it's at Barnes and Noble, it's at Theater Circle. If you're seeing a show, it's right there. So I'm so excited about that.

[A]

Phenomenal. Yes. It's called the Tony Awards. A celebration of excellence in theater. There's also a Forward by one Ms. Audra McDonald, soon to be Madame Rose in Gypsy.

[B]

I know they Said it wasn't going to happen, but now it is.

[A]

It's. You know, I saw it and I was. I. I had heard rumblings of it being possible, but no one would confirm nor deny for me. Everyone was like, I may or may not be involved, but I can't tell you too much. And now that it's been announced, and now it's been confirmed that George C. Wolfe is directing it. I am.

[B]

I know.

[A]

I am sad.

[B]

I know. I can't wait. Now I want to know who's Herbie and who's Louise? And, you know.

[A]

Oh, I've been. I've been drafting fantasy casting all day with all of my homosexual friends. We, Everyone, we've been thinking of it.

[B]

Who's your dream Herby?

[A]

Well, so my dream her not matter. Yeah. No, my, My dream Herby actually is. I. I don't say his name. Keegan Kwan from everything, but he's my dream Herby. If Toni Colette were Mama Rose. So I don't think he's my Herby opposite Audra. The Herbie that I've been hearing has been Paul Giamatti, which I also am not mad about.

[B]

That would be really interesting. Yeah, Definitely not someone who I automatically would go to, but makes total sense.

[A]

Yeah, I. I also could see Danny Burstein doing it. I'm very much on the bandwagon of Steven Skybell since the Yiddish Fiddler Now Cabaret. So, like, I would see his Herbie. I just. It's got to be somebody who can not go to toe to toe with Audra because for me, a little bit submissive. He's a bit of a bottom.

[B]

Stand up to her at some point.

[A]

Yes, he stands up to her twice. So he's got to be able to do that. But he's also got to be a bit of a. Of a love bug. The tricky thing is Louise, because you have to find someone who can be that wallflower for all of Act 1 and then genuinely do that transformation for the strip.

[B]

I think someone new. It should be someone unknown.

[A]

Absolutely. I love that because, I mean, listen, that strip is. It's so tricky. You have to cover so much ground, but if you, if you clock into it, it's like such a showcase.

[B]

And the movie, that's my absolute favorite part in the movie. I grew up wanting to do that because I saw Natalie Wood doing that. I thought that was the coolest thing ever. So I don't know what that says about me, that I wanted to be a stripper as a kid. But, you know, there you go.

[A]

I think he just wanted to be fabulous like Natalie Wood, which I can relate. Even Sondheim himself, he's not super thrilled with that movie, but he says Natalie Wood is. Makes that movie.

[B]

Yeah. Just that. I only care about that scene. I don't even care about the rest of the movie. Just her doing that number. She's so great. She looks amazing.

[A]

Oh, she was. God, does she look beautiful in that movie. But I mean, she also is good in the rest of the movie. But the strip. The strip is what it all comes down to every time with Louise. And she does that. Yeah, it has to. I also love Krista Moore's version of Louise in that strip from the Tiny Daily Gypsy. Just. Yeah, I want to see all the women do that. Do that scene all the time because it's just so good.

[B]

It really is.

[A]

Okay, so Audra will be amazing. So the Tony Awards, a celebration and a celebration of excellence in theater. Available everywhere you can find books. If you want to find me, I'm on Instagram only at Matt Koplik. Usual spelling. If you want to give this podcast a nice five star rating or review, we would love that. It always helps with the Algorith. Especially since you're gonna have two weeks off from us. Get that algorithm driven for us, baby. Ms. Isla in post, I will be putting in a little Broadway diva to play us out as we go to our final commercials. Who would you like to play us out today as your Broadway diva?

[B]

How about Kristin Chenoweth?

[A]

Phenomenal. I'm. I'm very much here for it. Do you want. Do you want to also pick the show or do you want me to do dealer's choice? Hmm.

[B]

You pick.

[A]

Okay, I'll pick. All right, fantastic. Thank you so much for listening, guys. We'll see you in two weeks when yours truly comes back from old London town. And that's it. Take it away, Ms. Chenoweth. Bye.

[B]

I can't stand it I like it it's like a guarantee My new philosophy and things are sure to be a whole lot brighter oh, yeah Next what you think? Why are you telling me no I can't stand it now Life is free and easy Much more philosophy with my brand new no.