Broadway Breakdown – THE WIZ (Movie) w/ Kaisha Huguley
Host: Matt Koplik
Guest: Kaisha Huguley
Date: February 20, 2025
Overview
This episode of Broadway Breakdown spotlights the 1978 film adaptation of THE WIZ. Host Matt Koplik and guest Kaisha Huguley dive deeply into its legacy, music, artistic choices, and cultural impact, especially on Black artists and audiences. They candidly discuss their own introductions to the film, dissect differences from the stage version, and critique elements that have aged well—or not.
Kaisha brings a passionate, personal lens as somebody who saw the film as a child and returned as an adult, while Matt reflects as a theater obsessive familiar with the stage score but new to the film. Their fast-paced, reflective dialogue unpacks the movie's strengths, flaws, and lasting influence within the landscape of Broadway and Black cultural representation.
Key Discussion Points & Insights
1. Personal Entry Points to THE WIZ
[02:07-05:03]
- Kaisha: Saw The Wiz as a child after being lured in by Michael Jackson’s involvement. Scared by imagery but later grew to appreciate its themes as an adult.
- “Some of the imagery in the film actually scared me. But, to be fair, I was also scared of The Wizard of Oz.” – Kaisha [02:14]
- Matt: Grew up on the original Broadway cast recording but didn’t see the film until adult life after assistant-directing a college production.
2. Film’s Legacy vs. Original Stage Show
[05:36-07:03]
- The original stage show is much closer to L. Frank Baum’s book, while the film sets Oz in a stylized NYC.
- The Broadway revival has incorporated many film innovations, showing the movie’s influence.
3. Directorial Choices & Pacing Critique
[07:28-10:52]
- Matt: Notes Sidney Lumet (director of serious dramas) as an odd choice for a sprawling movie musical.
- “You watch it and you’re like, oh, this man does not really know how to film a movie musical...you desperately need some adrenaline!” – Matt [08:29]
- Critique: The film uses too many stationary, wide shots, lending it a lifeless feeling despite star power (Michael Jackson, Diana Ross, Lena Horne).
- Joel Schumacher’s screenplay is called out for “making a lot of choices where I’m like, why are we doing that?” – Matt [09:38]
4. Diana Ross as Adult Dorothy – Success or Misfire?
[10:52-16:10]
- Debate over casting a 33-year-old as Dorothy, a role originated by 16-year-old Stephanie Mills.
- Kaisha: Sees relevance in an adult Dorothy for Black families—a relatable story about delayed independence.
- “There’s a child in probably every [Black] family that is a little shy in terms of going out into the world... I saw where maybe that was coming from.” – Kaisha [11:02]
- Mixed on how the film executes the character’s growth.
5. Visuals, Fashion, and the Missed Details
[16:23-21:21]
- Both lament the lack of close-ups on costumes and set pieces, particularly in Emerald City scenes.
- “I wanted more close ups. I wanted to see what the actual costumes looked like. Because it was so pulled back, I couldn’t get enough of a feel.” – Kaisha [15:51]
6. Narrative and Character Agency
[19:29-22:13]
- Discussion of Dorothy’s passivity and lack of agency in the movie adaptation.
- “Diana Ross’s Dorothy...doesn’t have a ton of agency. She’s kind of just scared all the time...I kind of need her to stop screaming in fear.” – Matt [19:29]
- Re-imagining opportunities: Show how Dorothy’s skills as a kindergarten teacher might help her friends.
7. Setting & The Floating Babies (!)
[23:28-26:18]
- Movie’s adaptation moves the action from Kansas to Harlem, using a snow tornado to whisk Dorothy to Oz.
- Both are mystified by the floating babies imagery in Lena Horne’s Glinda scene.
- “I need to do a deep dive on that because I have no idea...are these, like, people who have never grown up or babies that just didn’t make it?” – Kaisha [24:38]
8. Musical Numbers – Pacing, Placement, and Impact
[26:26-33:15]
- Favorite performer: Michael Jackson as Scarecrow, especially “Ease on Down the Road.” Kaisha:
- “It’s the first one with him and Diana...when they’re actually going down the road.” – [26:40]
- Frustration that the first up-tempo number takes over 30 minutes to arrive.
- Kaisha observes some songs “should have been placed differently or maybe shorter”—noting back-to-back ballads can drag down energy.
9. Movie Musicals: Then and Now
[33:15-41:25]
- Contrast with modern movie musicals: Best ones drop a lot of key numbers early to keep audiences hooked (examples: Chicago).
- Problems with The Wiz movie: Songs don’t always move the plot forward, and some are too long or miss their emotional target.
- Kaisha: Contemporary audiences have little patience for lengthy, static musical numbers unless they’re emotionally or narratively justified.
10. Adapting Stage to Screen: Opportunities and Pitfalls
[41:25-54:31]
- Matt shares: Movie musicals remain tough to get right; recent years have seen only a few real successes.
- “Movie musicals that are really successful are ones where people aren’t paying attention to the fact that they are watching a movie musical.” – Kaisha [30:55]
- Criticism: Brand New Day and Emerald City scenes in the film are visually exciting but lack the energy of the stage due to the wide, static shots.
- The challenges of making theater’s immersive magic work on screen.
11. Need for Purposeful adaptation
[54:31-57:41]
- Not all stage musicals require movie adaptations (and vice versa).
- “Not every movie that’s successful should be a musical. Not every musical that’s successful should be a movie.” – Matt [48:53]
- Some stories, like Hadestown, lose their essential magic when moved to another medium.
- Film adaptation of The Wiz didn’t always ask “why does this need to be a movie,” and often relied on star power and spectacle alone.
12. The Quest for the Perfect Wiz
[57:41-60:23]
- Both agree: The score is sensational and the talent pool deep, but execution across adaptations has never aligned perfectly.
- “I feel like there is a Wiz that we have not experienced yet that literally will have people being like, oh my goodness gracious, because the music is too good.” – Kaisha [57:53]
- The hope is for a future version—whether on stage or film—that finally nails the balance of musical, story, and style.
Notable Quotes & Moments
On the film’s visual style:
- “Why does this feel kind of lifeless? Because 19-year-old Michael Jackson and 33-year-old Diana Ross should be, you know, getting me pregnant. Why am I kind of just going, okay?” – Matt [08:57]
On Dorothy’s priorities:
- “She will let her friends rotate, but the moment you try to hurt her dog, she’s like, it’s fine, I’ll give you what you want. Also—that is a New York City woman.” – Matt [21:21]
On adaptation fatigue:
- “I feel like Broadway, in this current season and even seasons before, is very much in this, ‘Art form is dying, we need to create musicals based off source material people love so we can sell tickets.’” – Kaisha [51:07]
On the enduring legacy:
- “The positive legacy is it has really given inspiration to many BIPOC performers… showing like you can go out and be successful and be the center of this giant mega million-dollar enterprise.” – Matt [57:41]
Important Timestamps
- 00:07 – Playful cold open quoting The Wiz
- 02:07 – Kaisha’s childhood memories and initial fears
- 05:36 – Differences between stage version and movie legacy
- 07:28 – Directorial mismatches and critiques
- 10:52 – Diana Ross’ Dorothy: age, narrative, and performance
- 16:17 – Missing close-ups and visual style in film
- 19:29 – Issues with character agency; Dorothy’s development
- 23:28 – Harlem setting and blizzard “tornado” concept
- 26:26 – Favorite performer (Michael Jackson) and musical moments
- 30:55 – The challenge of making movie musicals feel dynamic
- 33:15 – Numbers’ narrative function and pacing
- 41:25 – Movie musicals: adaptation struggles over time
- 54:31 – Why not every story succeeds in every medium
- 57:41 – The dream of a perfect (future) The Wiz adaptation
- 64:58 – Oscar nominations and snub for costumes, and why
- 67:27 – “Let’s make our own perfect Wiz!” (Joking future plans)
Closing
[69:01]
Kaisha picks Heather Headley as her ultimate Broadway diva, calling for her triumphant return to Broadway.
- “I want her on Broadway more. I’m like, give me Heather Headley every single time.” – Kaisha [69:09]
For more Broadway Breakdown, check out Matt Koplik on Instagram, and Kaisha at @KaishaCreates.
Tune in next episode for an in-depth dive into Angels in America.