THE WIZ (Movie) w/ Kaisha Huguley

Summary

Broadway Breakdown: THE WIZ (Movie) with Kaisha Huguley

Release Date: February 20, 2025
Host: Matt Koplik
Guest: Kaisha Huguley

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Introduction

In this engaging episode of Broadway Breakdown, host Matt Koplik delves deep into the legacy and impact of the 1978 movie adaptation of The Wiz. Joined by special guest Kaisha Huguley, the conversation navigates through personal experiences, critical analyses, and the broader implications of the film within the landscape of American theater.

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Personal Reflections and Childhood Memories

Ariana Grande shares her childhood encounters with The Wiz, expressing mixed feelings about the film's imagery:

"[04:33] Ariana Grande: ...the imagery in the film actually scaring me... I was also scared of the wizard of Oz, so I was equally scared of both of these products..."

In contrast, Cynthia Erivo recounts her limited childhood exposure, focusing more on the Broadway cast recording rather than the movie itself:

"[05:47] Cynthia Erivo: ...the Broadway cast recording weirdly was... I never watched the movie until my adult life..."

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Casting Choices: Diana Ross as Dorothy

A significant portion of the discussion centers on Diana Ross's portrayal of Dorothy. Kaisha Huguley critiques the age disparity and character development:

"[12:26] Cynthia Erivo: ...Diana Ross's Dorothy in The Wiz movie doesn't have a ton of agency... She's always scared and needs saving..."

Ariana Grande responds by appreciating Ross's performance within the context of its time but acknowledges its limitations in modern settings:

"[16:06] Ariana Grande: I overall enjoyed Diana's performance mainly because I'm also a Diana Ross fan... But the kind of performance that she was showing in that film is not necessarily what we go for in 2025..."

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Direction and Cinematography Critique

The film's direction by Sidney Lumet receives substantial criticism. Kaisha Huguley points out Lumet's lack of expertise in musical filmmaking:

"[09:38] Cynthia Erivo: ...the camera needs to move. Because there's so much talent in the movie... why does this feel kind of lifeless?"

She further discusses the impact of long, static shots on the film's energy and audience engagement:

"[16:06] Ariana Grande: ...the camera's so far away and just sitting there... I wanted to see more close-ups of the costumes and details."

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Musical Numbers and Their Placement

The placement and execution of musical numbers are scrutinized, particularly how songs like "Ease on Down the Road" and "You Can't Win" were handled. Cynthia Erivo expresses frustration over the pacing and energy of these numbers in the film adaptation:

"[08:30] Cynthia Erivo: ...watching the movie, you can't win is very necessary because up until then we've had nothing but mid-tempo and ballads..."

Ariana Grande adds that the film's musical energy doesn't translate as effectively as it does on stage:

"[30:10] Ariana Grande: ...if I had my way, I would have also wanted to see them do [the journey into Oz] a little bit earlier."

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Comparisons Between Stage and Film Adaptations

The conversation highlights the inherent challenges in adapting stage musicals to film. Kaisha Huguley emphasizes the importance of maintaining the theatrical essence while utilizing cinematic tools effectively:

"[44:40] Cynthia Erivo: ...movie musicals are just hard to do in general. I think that is the hardest genre of film because theater is a living, breathing art form."

Ariana Grande reflects on successful adaptations like Wicked and contrasts them with The Wiz, suggesting that some stories thrive better in their original medium:

"[49:31] Cynthia Erivo: ...not every movie that's successful should be a musical. Not every musical that's successful should be a movie."

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Legacy and Influence on BIPOC Performers

Despite its flaws, The Wiz holds a positive legacy by inspiring many BIPOC performers and providing representation in a major Broadway adaptation. Kaisha Huguley acknowledges both the inspiration and the stylistic influences the film has imparted:

"[61:21] Cynthia Erivo: ...the positive legacy is it has really given an inspiration to many BIPOC performers since it came out..."

However, she also notes the negative impact of stylistic deviations introduced by the film, which some believe have steered subsequent productions away from the original's magic:

"...the theater community has taken away stylistically from the movie is like, oh, okay, so now every interpretation of The Wiz should be even more edgy and more on the cusp of pop culture."

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Challenges of Movie Musicals

The episode delves into the broader challenges faced by movie musicals, such as maintaining audience engagement and effectively translating stage energy to the screen. Kaisha Huguley emphasizes the importance of intentional musical placements and aligning them with narrative progression:

"[36:30] Cynthia Erivo: ...if you invest in that work of figuring out why the song needs to be as long as it is, and really taking people through a specific journey..."

Ariana Grande echoes these sentiments, advocating for clearer intentions behind musical numbers to ensure they serve the story:

"[34:11] Ariana Grande: ...I have not... one movie musical where someone is like, oh my God, another song failed, because it's entertaining and takes us on a journey."

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Future Adaptations and Improvements

Looking forward, both hosts express hope for future adaptations that honor the source material while leveraging cinematic strengths. Kaisha Huguley envisions a The Wiz remake that combines the joy and grandeur of the original with contemporary storytelling techniques:

"...there is a Wiz that we have not experienced yet that literally will have people being like, oh, my goodness gracious, because the music is too good..."

Ariana Grande concurs, emphasizing the need for thoughtful production design and closer attention to costume details to enhance visual storytelling:

"[68:38] Cynthia Erivo: ...the camera's always just so far away. You don't get the intricacies of those costumes..."

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Conclusion

The episode concludes with a reflection on the enduring appeal of The Wiz and the complexities of adapting beloved stage musicals to film. Kaisha Huguley and Ariana Grande advocate for future projects to learn from past missteps, ensuring that adaptations not only showcase talent but also respect and enhance the original material's essence.

Additionally, Matt Koplik hints at upcoming episodes focusing on Angels in America, promising continued deep dives into iconic Broadway pieces.

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Notable Quotes

• Ariana Grande ([04:33]): "...the imagery in the film actually scaring me... I was also scared of the wizard of Oz..."
• Cynthia Erivo ([12:26]): "...Diana Ross's Dorothy in The Wiz movie doesn't have a ton of agency... She's always scared and needs saving..."
• Cynthia Erivo ([09:38]): "...the camera needs to move... why does this feel kind of lifeless?"
• Ariana Grande ([16:06]): "...the camera's so far away and just sitting there... I wanted to see more close-ups of the costumes and details."
• Kaisha Huguley ([44:40]): "...movie musicals are just hard to do in general. I think that is the hardest genre of film because theater is a living, breathing art form."
• Ariana Grande ([49:31]): "...not every movie that's successful should be a musical. Not every musical that's successful should be a movie."

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Final Thoughts

This episode of Broadway Breakdown offers a comprehensive and nuanced exploration of The Wiz movie, highlighting its strengths, shortcomings, and lasting impact. For theater enthusiasts and casual listeners alike, the discussion provides valuable insights into the challenges of adaptation and the enduring significance of musical storytelling.

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If you enjoyed this summary, consider tuning into the full episode for an in-depth conversation on one of Broadway's most iconic adaptations.

Transcript

[Ariana Grande]

Hi, I'm Ariana Grande.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Hi, I'm Cynthia Erivo and you're listening.

[Ariana Grande]

To the Broadway Podcast Network. Visit VPN FM to discover more.

[Cynthia Erivo]

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[Ariana Grande]

And it does without me lifting a.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Finger so so I can get in more squats anywhere I can. 1, 2, 3 will that be cash or credit? Credit. 4 Galaxy S25 Ultra the AI companion that does the heavy lifting so you can do. You get [e-mail] compatible with select apps. Requires Google Gemini account. Results may vary based on input. Check responses for accuracy. Sweet thing, let me tell you about the world. The way things are done.

[Ariana Grande]

You come from a different place and I know you travel far. Now that you told me what it is.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Hello all you theater lovers both out and proud and on the DL. And welcome back to Broadway Breakdown, a podcast discussing the history und legacy of American theater's most exclusive address, Broadway. I am your host Matt Koplik, the least famous and most opinionated of all the Broadway podcast hosts and this series is called Grab Bag and it is covering shows and movie musicals that you selected and I picked out of a bowl. My guest today is brand new to Breakdown. You might have seen her On Cuny TV theater, all the moving parts, with me talking about Wicked, the movie, part one. Or as I like to call it, wicked before good. But I'm.

[Ariana Grande]

Thank you.

[Cynthia Erivo]

And we are back in the land of Oz. Please welcome to the pod. Kyesha Hughley. Hi, Kyisha.

[Ariana Grande]

Hi. Thank you so much.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Thank you for coming on. How are you doing today?

[Ariana Grande]

Listen, you know, we're starting the week off strong after Kendrick Lamar's performance in the super bowl, so I'm feeling really motivated and happy. Black History Month.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Black History Month. I guess I am technically speaking a hat on a hat with this, because I. I just this the way this time down, because. Keisha, what are we talking about today? We're talking about the Wiz, the movie in particular.

[Ariana Grande]

Yes, yes.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Now, Kaisha is very booked and blessed, very busy and important, so she has a heart out. So we are just gonna jump right into it, guys, and we're gonna do as much as we can in a short amount of time. Kaisha, when did this movie enter your chat of life?

[Ariana Grande]

You know, I don't remember how old I was when I saw the Wiz, but I was definitely a child. And I remember some of the imagery in the film actually scaring me. But to be fair, I was also scared of the wizard of Oz, so I was equally scared of both of these products because, I mean, are you kidding? The Wicked Witch of the West? Like what? Like, I was like, that can happen. So the Wiz brought a different scare to me. Some of the. Some of the imagery was really uncomfortable for me. I think I was just too young at the time when I saw it. And so I didn't really get into the Wiz until, like, my adult life.

[Cynthia Erivo]

If you will, to be fair. So I. This movie was not much a part of my childhood. The Broadway cast recording weirdly was. And I say weirdly just because there was no production of the Wiz happening around me as a child. I just had. I just had the cast recording, and I really enjoyed it. And for some reason, I never watched the movie. I think I had wizard of Oz and I had the cast recording, and for me, that was enough for a time. And also, coming up, as a movie buff, I don't know if you're aware of this, the original movie wasn't deemed much of a success when it came out. Um, Legacy has, you know, lasted a lot longer after the fact. So I didn't. I didn't watch it until my adult life after. Spoiler alert. I assistant directed a production of the Wiz in College, which I, you know, that's a story for another day. That's a story for off the podcast, that Emerson College production of the ways that I had no business being a part of. But I watched it finally, I think when I was like 30 or so, and then watched again for this episode last night. And I don't blame you as a child for being scared. Some of those scenes are getting intense.

[Ariana Grande]

No, literally, I'm like, I don't know if that is for children also too. Just thinking about the themes of what I feel like the Wiz was trying to do, that would have completely gone over my head as a kid. And I vividly remember wanting to watch it because I was like, I want to see Michael Jackson. Like, Michael Jackson is the scarecrow. And I had just. I feel like at that time I was just kind of getting over my fear of thriller. So I don't know why I thought I was going to be able to handle the Wiz, but I was like, Michael is in it. I have to see it. And I just, as a kid remember, like watching only the scenes that Michael was in. Like, I remember like forwarding to you Can't Win or He's on down the Road, because those are the parts that I really, really wanted to see. Like on, I guess at the time would have been vhs. Oh, my God. But yeah, I just, as a kid, it wasn't something that, like, I think for the age that I was something that I was able to like, really enjoy and appreciate for. For what it was.

[Cynthia Erivo]

That's fair. I love that, like child, you goes, Michael and I are in a good place right now. We've come to an understanding. I think I can go on to this one. But yeah. So as an adult now and have you. Are you familiar with the stage show of the Wiz? Have you seen that as well? Yes. Did you see the last production that was on Broadway?

[Ariana Grande]

Yes. That was actually the first stage production of the Wiz that I had seen. So I was familiar with like, of course, like scenes here and there and some of the variations between the stage production and the film, but I had never actually seen like a full on production of it.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Right. So what's fascinating to me about the legacy of this film and how it has influenced the Wiz as a stage show is the original, like, original original, the one that opened in 1974 and, you know, has been licensed forever, is a pretty straightforward interpretation of the original book by L. Frank Baum and I, because I knew that the movie was sort of in an Asian New York City. I, I think all of us just sort of assumed that was what the Wiz was. And so when, when you watch, like the original stage show, you go, oh, it's, it's, it's pretty straightforward wizard of Oz. But so this revival that was just on Broadway, they do incorporate a lot of the movie elements to it, which I'm not mad about. There's a lot. There's always a debate. We have a Broadway breakdown discord, and someone asks, you know, do you prefer I was born on the day before yesterday or you can't win. And it's hard for me to say because watching the movie, you can't win is very necessary because up until then we've had nothing but, like, mid tempo and ballads and you desperately need some, like, adrenaline.

[Ariana Grande]

Right.

[Cynthia Erivo]

But the stage show has actually far more adrenaline in it leading up to that moment. So you can kind of accept a sort of. It's not a slow song. Born before Day Before Yesterday. It's kind of, I guess it's like a groovy mid tempo is, I guess, how you would describe it, right?

[Ariana Grande]

Yeah, yeah, absolutely.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Yeah. I think it just fits a lot better. Rewatching the movie last night, I famously did not watch the Super Bowl. Uh, I watched Kendrick Lamar's performance this morning because that's what's important to me. Not, you know, which football team wins, but fair. Also, Kaishi and I were. Were messaging last night about the, about the podcast, and I sent her a screenshot of me watching the movie and she was like, I'm literally doing the exact same.

[Ariana Grande]

No, I was. And like, honestly, I had the super bowl on my television and I had the Wiz on my iPad, and so I only turned off the Wiz to watch Kendrick, and then I turned the Wiz back on.

[Cynthia Erivo]

You are a woman with all the right priorities and you have my heart forever, you know? Yeah. So what I'll say about the movie, there's a lot of things about the movie that I think are really enjoyable and as well as me understanding why it did not connect when it came out and why it wasn't well regarded when it came out.

[Ariana Grande]

Mm.

[Cynthia Erivo]

My hot take is I don't ultimately think this is a very good movie musical, I think, but it's not the fault. How do I describe this? So the movie was directed by Sidney Lumet, who is. Who was a phenomenal film director, you know, directed such classic movie musicals like 12 Angry Men, Dog Day Afternoon, and Network. And it's sort of, it's sort of like when they're like, oh, we're making a movie version of Rent and we're having the dude who made Home Alone direct it. And we're like, so the dude who directed Network is going to direct the Wiz. And you're like, those two things don't mesh.

[Ariana Grande]

Right.

[Cynthia Erivo]

So you watch it and you're like, oh, this man A does not really know how to film a movie musical. And especially after our conversation about Wicked with Patrick and Aaron, I feel like you can see that with so many stationary shots where the camera just sort of sits there for like 80 seconds and like in a long shot. And granted it gives you a great perspective of the set and the choreography, but you're also like, the camera needs to move. And then because there's so much talent on in the movie. Yeah. And you're like, why does this kind of for me anyway? I was like, why does this feel kind of lifeless? Because, you know, 19 year old Michael Jackson and 33 Diana Ross should be, you know, getting me pregnant. Why am I kind of just going, yeah, like, why am I sort of like, okay, like Lena Horne literally singing into my throat, like, why am I right? Yeah. And I think part of it that is, you know, City Lumet is not a, not a musical person and also just wasn't. Did not have sort of the right attitude for the movie. Joel Schumacher also wrote the screenplay. For those of you who don't know Joel Schumacher directed, eventually we're going to direct the Phantom of the Opera movie. I think he wrote and directed St. Almost Fire. Don't quote me on that last part. But he's and granted, you know, a flaming homosexual. So in some ways I'm like, okay, I see the connection for why you would do the Wiz because flaming homosexuals wrote Dream Girls. And like sometimes we know how to set up good talent to shine. But this is a case where like Joel Schumacher made a whole lot of choices when I was like, why? Why are we doing that?

[Ariana Grande]

Right.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Yeah. But I, you know what, I'm going to ask you a question and we'll have a conversation like we're supposed to do. Diana Ross at the very young age of 33 is playing Dorothy. Ms. Stephanie Mills at the very old age of 16, originated the role and was about 19 when the movie was getting made. So Dorothy is supposed to be a child and they have to be. They have her be a 30 year old or I guess she's 24 in the movie. They're trying to tell she's 24. Even though Diana Ross in that wig does not look 24. She's a kindergarten teacher, and she has to go through all the journeys of Dorothy. But, like, as a grown woman.

[Ariana Grande]

Mm.

[Cynthia Erivo]

All that said, what? How do you feel about that creative choice? And then how do you feel about Ms. Ross if you're Nasty's performance?

[Ariana Grande]

Hmm. Okay.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Safe space, too. Kyesha. She's not gonna find us.

[Ariana Grande]

Listen, thank you. But what if she does? Because you just never know. You know, her daughter is one of my favorite people on earth. I am such a Tracee Ellis Ross, Stan. So hopefully, if she does find us, she'll call me. Anyway, so I have so many thoughts. I actually, you know, looking at Diana Ross, I didn't think, oh, she's too old for this role. I just thought, okay, we're setting this as she's an adult who should have moved out of her parents house a long time ago. And that narrative is a narrative that I feel like I've heard many times, specifically in the black community, that there's a child in probably every family that is a little shy in terms of going out into the world and living on their own for the first time and trying to figure out what they want to do with their lives and basically have been complacent and not wanting to actually do the thing that scares them. So I saw where maybe that was coming from versus Dorothy, you know, in the child version is obviously different. So that. That. That change didn't necessarily bother me. What I don't think particularly landed for me is just how we did that. It felt like we got through it so fast. Like, why couldn't she love teaching pre K? Like, I wanted her to be able. Like, you can still thrive and. And literally fall into. Into the thing that you really love. Like, you know what I mean? Like, there was nothing wrong. Like, her aunt was telling her that she needed to look into teaching high school students. And I'm like, well, what if her passion is actually teaching preschool students? I don't understand why she can't be passionate about that and live on her own and be a thriving adult. So that's like some of those breakdowns were kind of in my mind, like this. And I don't want to say it didn't age well, but I think that it was a thing of its time. Because during what, 1978, whenever this came out, I feel like that would have been something that aunties and uncles would have said to their, you know, their nieces, children, whatever, to be like, hey, you know, you need to do better. You need to excel, climb the ladder, all these things. And so I think that that's where that general thought is coming. I. It's just so funny to me, like, when I look at things that are as old as this is, I can understand for the period of time that it existed in. Why specifically, like, my elders would have gone up for this. Like, it's like, look at Diana, look at Michael. Like, I could see them, you know, celebrating this for a multitude of reasons, for representation, for just the kind of spectacle of it all. I could see people being like, oh, did you see her? Like, she was running all around and she did. Like, I could just hear that. If I was an adult in 1978, I think that I would have had maybe a similar appreciation. But I think that coming back to this, because it's been a while since I've seen the film, I can't even tell you. Like, I was actually thinking about that last night when I was watching that. I was like, when is the last time that I have seen this film from start to finish? And it's been probably like years and years. I can't think of a time that I sat down and watched it. And so watching it last night, I was like, oh, my goodness. I kind of forgot what it was as an entire piece and just what the environment, how the story changes with it being in New York City and it being an all black cast, all these different things. So anyway, let me answer the question.

[Cynthia Erivo]

You've been answering the question. I love it.

[Ariana Grande]

Oh, well, thank you. I overall enjoyed Diana's performance mainly because I'm also a Diana Ross fan. But I enjoyed it because I think that for what it was at the time, it makes sense. If we saw someone do what she did in the Wiz today, it might. It would hit different because we're just at a different time. But the kind of performance that she was showing in that film is not necessarily what we go for in 2025 when it comes to a movie musical. Going back to what you were saying before about, like, how this was direct, how it was shot, I was very much feeling like I wanted some different shots. Specifically when we talk about the Emerald City. The Emerald City with all those different costume changes and the colors and the vibrancy of those moments, I wanted more close ups. I wanted to see what the. What the actual costumes looked like. And because it was so pulled back, I couldn't get enough of a feel. I felt like I started to get a little bit of that feel in the scene with the poppies like, the very first scene, I was like, oh, this is bright. This is vibrant. Like, I can see it, but I never got close enough to be able to see the details that I wanted to see. So I agree with you on that. I think that if it had been shot differently, especially in those moments that, like, where I think it really matters, that would have been something that I would have loved those scenes even more. Because, I mean, honestly, those are two of my favorite scenes from the movie. Because I just love. Like, this is a commentary on fashion, and fashion is something in my life, is something that's important to me. And so I was like. I immediately clocked it. I was like, fashion, fashion, fashion. And so I thought that that was something of note. I don't even know what I'm saying anymore, but I literally.

[Cynthia Erivo]

This is what my podcast does to people. We go on dangers. They're like, where are we at again?

[Ariana Grande]

Right? So help.

[Cynthia Erivo]

So I hear you. I think rewatching Diana's performance, and again, remember, I. I spent the majority of my very supple life being addicted to Stephanie Mills's interpretations of those songs. And. And I think my biggest critique of Diana's performance of, like, her end is I don't think that she allows herself really Until Home, which you could argue is a. Is an artistic choice, but vocally, Until Home to really kind of let loose. I don't even think she's really giving it her all on Bl Lion. I mean, she's. She is singing, but, like, there's. We know that Ms. Ross also has, like, a head voice that she can absolutely flip into. And, like, there are some notes that I just are burned into my DNA of Stephanie Mills's interpretation. So something like, I think as soon as I get home, which is right after the he's the Wiz is actually a much more uptempo song. It's not, like, super pleasant, but it has more of a momentum to it than the way that they have it done in this version. And so I wish that they would allow Diana to really sing that way in terms of what the character is. You're right. Like her, because she is not a literal child. And the thinking behind Diana's casting changes, based on any readings that you do. Some say, oh, she really lobbied to do it. Some have written like, oh, because Motown was the producer of Was only going to be Diana, and that's what they wanted. Even though she thought she was told, like, everyone's opinions change, but they're like, okay, we have Diana Ross, who is objectively not a child and can't pass for once. We have to rewrite the role. And I like the idea of if it's gonna be this. She's sort of in an arrested development. And I, I. When she was. When she first meets Michael Jackson, Scarecrow, and she says to him, you know, you are the product of, like, negative thinking or like, negative critiquing or something like that. I thought, oh, what a great moment that they kind of. That they dropped the ball on of. We can see, we can watch since we hear, oh, she teaches kindergarten and pre K and she, she really loves it. And she doesn't want to do high school. The movie frames it as. She's too afraid of change and of progressing. And I think that there could be an interesting blend of she as a human being is afraid of progressing, but her talent really is in this field of education. And then watching her, watching those skills come into play while she's in Oz with each of the friends, that never really happens. We never see her kind of use those tools to help the Scarecrow and then help the Tin man and help the lion. Because in a lot of ways, those characters are children. Like, they're, they're adults in Oz, but they're children in the real world. And so I thought it would, it also would have given her a lot more agency because Dorothy, I feel like Dorothy in the actual book and in the stage show of the Wiz does have, like, an attitude and she does things. Judy Garland's Dorothy is a little more sort of things happen to her, but she's Judy garland and she's 17, and so we, we don't mind it.

[Ariana Grande]

Right.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Diana Ross's Dorothy in the Wiz movie doesn't have a ton of agency. She's kind of just. She's scared all the time and she's always thrown. And I would have loved it if we could have had a little bit more of that. She's always like, she always needs saving. She always, she's always terrified for her life. And I would have loved to have seen the growth of. And the back and forth of, okay, she's scared in this moment, but she uses what she knows to get her through this moment. And then she's feeling good, but then something undermines her and, and yada, yada, yada. It's it for while watching it this time. And part of it is also, like, the movie's pacing is a little sluggish for a movie musical. There. There were only so many times I could hear her, like, scream in fear for two hours and 20 minutes. And, right. I was like, okay. By the time we get to the Emerald City, I kind of need her to stop screaming in fear. I need her to kind of be used to Oz by now. Just for my own, you know, peace of mind.

[Ariana Grande]

And.

[Cynthia Erivo]

And I. We never really got that. Also, I remember saying this with a friend the first time I ever watched it, when she's in Eveline's sweatshop, and. And she's being held captive, like, oh, okay, I want those silver shoes. And all of her friends are. Are, you know, about to get tortured. The Tin man fully gets, like, pressed into scrap metal. They're pulling apart the Scarecrow. Each. Like, they go, with each friend being like, I'm gonna do this if you don't give me the shoes. They press the Tin man down, and they're like, don't worry about it, Dorothy. I'll be okay. They start pulling apart the Scarecrow. He's like, I'll be okay. The line. They start pulling up into the. Into the air. And then the second they're about to take Toto, she. She goes, no, please don't. I'll give you my shoes. And I'm like, that is a New York City woman. She will let her friends rotate. But the moment you try to hurt her dog, she's like, it's fine. I'll give you what you want.

[Ariana Grande]

Also, she knew that they could survive. You know what I mean? Like, yeah. So, like, I think for her, it was, like, total will burn to death.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Yeah, that was literal fire with a literal dog with 1000%. But I did watch that. I was like, of course. The moment they take your dog away, you New York biddy. Yeah.

[Ariana Grande]

She's like, I need my dog. But also, did you notice that? Did you see the Toto in the ending scene?

[Cynthia Erivo]

He's not in the. The scene right before she sings home. Like, she's not. He's not by her feet, but when she's walking back into the apartment.

[Ariana Grande]

Yeah.

[Cynthia Erivo]

It looks like she's holding him.

[Ariana Grande]

Maybe that's what it was. Because I was like, wait. Did she really not come home with this dog? Like, for 12 seconds? I was like, I know we didn't go through all this for her to leave that dog.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Especially with every single scene, they make it a point at the end of every single adventure or, you know, scary moment, it always ends with her being like, toto. Where's Toto? Where's Toto? And grabbing him. Yeah.

[Ariana Grande]

I literally was like, wait. And I, like, I kind of needed to see the dog a little bit more because I'm like, that isn't. That's how this whole thing got started. She was chasing him out of the apartment.

[Cynthia Erivo]

So anyway, we'll talk about exactly what got her into Oz in just a second. But first, let's take a quick break.

[Ariana Grande]

Billy, I'd beg to differ with you. How do you mean? You're the top. Yeah, you're an arrow collar. You're the top.

[Cynthia Erivo]

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[Ariana Grande]

Instead.

[Cynthia Erivo]

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[Ariana Grande]

Edu.

[Cynthia Erivo]

And we're back. So as I said in Normal, the Wiz, the stage show, it is pretty straightforward. She lives in Kansas and an actual tornado takes her up and there's a. Oh God, there's such a great number with the. With the tornado gonna get Ya. And the original production, there's no video of it, but you can see photos. It's like this giant silk prop that sort of like extends across the whole stage. It's so Jeffrey Holder was the original director and costume designer and. Genius, genius, genius man. The movie, as we said, takes place in New York, in Harlem. They make a whole joke of how Dorothy is 24 years old and she's never been south of 125th Street. And then this giant blizzard. I guess it's like a blizzard. Tornado blizzard.

[Ariana Grande]

Yeah, it's like a snow tornado. Yeah, I guess, yeah.

[Cynthia Erivo]

That seems to have been caused by Lena horns. Glinda. It's the, the, the books and the stage show. It's like a literal tornado that lifts her up and puts her into the literal land of Oz, the Wizard of Oz movie. It's like, is it a dream? Is it real? Who cares? And then this is sort of like, no, it's real. But Oz is also just all the other parts of New York City that Dorothy's never been to, right? Yeah. And it's the way they show it. It makes they make it seem like Glinda's the one who's kind of orchestrating it all, which I think is kind of suspect. I'm like you. That's like, that's a lot of energy to make a 24 year old go on an emotional journey. Like, you also could have just given her a copy of E Pray Love, but just saying, but, right? Yeah, yeah. So it's, it's this giant snow tornado by Lena Horn. Also, by the way, did you notice all the floating babies in Lena Horne's.

[Ariana Grande]

Yes.

[Cynthia Erivo]

What's that about? Why are there floating babies?

[Ariana Grande]

You know, I need to do a deep dive on that because I have no idea. And I thought I was like, are these like people who don't reach their potential? And I'm like, that's way too much. Like, that does not feel real. You just went all the way in the opposite direction of probably what the intent was. But I'm like, are these like people who have never grown up or like babies that just didn't make it? I was trying to figure out what was the purpose of having them there. Yeah, I don't know.

[Cynthia Erivo]

I don't know. It's. It's the souls of all the people who didn't believe in themselves. Like, she sings.

[Ariana Grande]

That's it. That must be it.

[Cynthia Erivo]

It's like a combo of believing yourself and poor unfortunate souls. She's like, believe in yourself. And if you don't you'll turn out like the babies in my garden who didn't believe in themselves. Yeah, it's.

[Ariana Grande]

It.

[Cynthia Erivo]

It's one of those things where I'm like. Because it's not that the movie, I feel like aesthetically, a lot of things are thought through, at least in terms of how are we going to adapt New York and make it Oz. Like, that's one of those things where I watched and I went. I feel like the whole team, you know, Sydney Lumet, Joel Schumacher, very white British. Tony Walton, who did the designs for this movie, were like, I don't know, floating babies. And you're like, but why?

[Ariana Grande]

Why?

[Cynthia Erivo]

Yeah, right. I don't know.

[Ariana Grande]

Yeah, I don't know. I will have to dig deep on that one because I'm like. I looked at it and I was like, huh? And like. I mean, thinking about imagery of, like, you know, Glenda the. You know, as a wicked witch and seeing that behind her, I'm thinking of all these different movies where there's been someone in the stars and how, like, it said that babies are like stars in the universe. So I'm like, is that what we're going for? I'm not sure.

[Cynthia Erivo]

It's possible. It's possible. It's. Yeah. I don't know. I don't know. Do you have a favorite performer in this movie?

[Ariana Grande]

Michael Jackson.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Fantastic. That's a. That's. I think that's a very strong choice. Do you have a particular favorite number of his? Is it. You can't win. Is it.

[Ariana Grande]

It's Easel down the Road.

[Cynthia Erivo]

The first one with him and Diana.

[Ariana Grande]

Yeah. Like, when they're actually. Yep. Going down the road. Yep.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Yeah. They. They edge you for quite a while with the beginning of that. Ease on down the Road when they find the bricks. I forgot just how long they make you wait before they start the actual number.

[Ariana Grande]

Right. I feel like the beginning of the movie up until that point, it's really. I guess the intent was to really set the scene because it takes you a while to get there. Because I remember what was like, 45 minutes in.

[Cynthia Erivo]

It feels like 45 minutes. It might be. Yeah, it might be 30, but it's. Yeah, it's a while.

[Ariana Grande]

Yeah. And it kind of takes you a while to get into. Even just, like, take the journey into Oz, if you will. Like, she lands, I guess, technically in Oz, prior to that. But them actually going down the yellow brick road takes some time. And I'm like, oh, I would have liked to see them do that a little bit earlier. Like, if I had my way, I would have also, too. I just can only imagine, like, you know, Michael Jackson and I don't know what his influence on this film was specifically, but, like, he was always known for people, for him saying that, make them wait. Make, you know, really let the audience anticipate what's coming. And I'm like, we really had to wait for you, sir. We really did. So I don't know.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Yeah, because so in the stage shows, I think anytime. Anytime they start, quote, unquote, easing down the road, that is when the song is sung. I feel like they sing it. I could be wrong. I feel like in the original, original libretto, it is sung before she meets the scarecrow. And then it becomes. It's, you know, it's the. It's. It's reprised every time they get someone new in the gang. And also, the Yellow Brick road is an actual. I don't say it's an actual character, but there are usually three or four people who, like, represent the road.

[Ariana Grande]

Right?

[Cynthia Erivo]

Yeah. So I understand them wanting to make us wait a little bit. I think part of the reason why, again, it was a little frustrating was it took until you can win to get, like, an actual uptempo in this movie.

[Ariana Grande]

Right.

[Cynthia Erivo]

And that's 30ish minutes. And. And I'm. I'm sitting here going, like, come on, you got to give me something. Like, Wicked, at least starts with no one warns the Wicked, which is. Right. And this one, they're. They're doing kind of more of a hymn like version of the Feeling We Once had, which, you know, Teresa Merritt sings beautifully. But normally in this show, it's. It's a bit more actually. Okay, so. So I. I was watching it, and my mom decided she was gonna sit in and watch some of it with me. And my mom has. Now she watches all sorting, like, police procedurals and British dramas. So anytime she and I watch something that's on the lighter side, she asks questions that are kind of, like, morbid. So, like, I introduced her to Gilmore Girls and the episode where Paris Geller doesn't get into Harvard and she shows up at school, like, in sweatpants, like, hair disheveled. My mom. My mom's immediate response was, oh, no. Did she. Oh, no. Did she get sexually assaulted? I was like, you need to stop watching Law and Order. Like, you need to stop. That was like, none of that. That stuff doesn't happen in Gilmore Girls. Stop it.

[Ariana Grande]

But.

[Cynthia Erivo]

So we're watching. We're watching the Wiz. Or she's watching it with Me. And the feeling we once had begins. And it takes place at Thanksgiving. And Auntie M begins with her own daughter who has no lines, but she comes in with her. Her baby and, and her husband and Teresa Merritt. No. Holds her when she begins the number. You know, put your head against me, child. And her daughter has like this kind of sad look about her and. And I just viewed it as. Oh, that's just her resting face. Like when she's not really thinking about it, she just has like a naturally sad looking face. My mom goes. My mom goes, oh. She goes, why is she, why is she so sad? Did her, did her husband leave her? Is the baby out of wedlock? Like, what's going on? It's like, why is she so sad? In the scene? I was like, you need to stop watching British dramas. Correct. I'm like, it's the Wiz. She's about to go to Oz in 10 minutes. You need to calm down.

[Ariana Grande]

Oh my God.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Because she like came up with this whole backstory for Auntie M's daughter. I was like, stop it. It's like she listen, it's just imagination. Yeah. I was like, I love your imagination, but like, it's Thanksgiving and she just had a baby. It's all fine, it's all good. But yeah, like, it's, it's. It is a sort of somber tone of that song. So to take that long before we finally get to an up tempo, like, you can't win. I was like, I, I could have used a ease on down the road a little sooner. Just right.

[Ariana Grande]

Real quick. Just the music, right? So thinking about the music with Quincy Jones and all that, like, there were some songs, you know, revisiting songs I haven't heard in a while that I really liked and other ones where I was like, man, like, I just wish this was placed differently or it was a little bit shorter. Like, especially towards the end of the movie. I feel like we're hit with three back to back numbers and there's not a lot of like dialogue that happens in between and that I think there's something to be said about how movie musicals were created versus how they're being created now. And maybe some of them still need some work because I think that movie musicals that are really successful are ones where people are not paying attention to the fact that they are watching a movie musical. The moment someone is like, oh my God, another song we failed, like, you know what I mean? Like, I feel like a lot of people say they don't like musicals because they. I don't enjoy listening to a six minute song, but I have not. And also, I mean, clearly I'm in the musical world, but I have not heard anyone be like, I can't stand the seven minutes of what is this feeling for a movie? No one's saying that because it's entertaining. We love it from start to finish. It takes us on a journey. And so if the music, if the songs in a movie musical are doing the job they are intended to do and they are pushing the plot forward, people won't get bored. And I think that that is maybe what is happening not just in the Wiz, but in old movie musicals. People aren't able to see the journey that the song is supposed to take people on. And so it's like, oh man, like, this is really pretty, but where are we going with this and why is it so long? And I think that like, I mean, attention spans in 2025, it's hopeless. They're shot. But I do think that when we invest in that work of figuring out why the song needs to be as long as it is, and really taking people through a specific journey, people will paying attention to what is happening. It's the moment when there's no intention behind it or, you know, essentially people don't understand why they're watching the thing or why they're listening to people saying is when we start to lose people. So anyway, a complete tangent, but that was just something I was thinking about because the beginning of it I just kind of felt like I see that we're setting it all up, but can we set it all up and keep it. And keep it kind of snowballing, if you will.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Yeah, well, because that song in the stage show is only for Dorothy and it is set up as, you know, she's. She and Auntie Em are having sort of a problem in their relationship. Dorothy's in the middle of. Is in a very vulnerable part of her adolescence where she's really transitioning from child to womanhood. And. And there's a lot of stuff going on and she and Auntie M are sort of butting heads in that way. And it's a plea from Auntie M to Dorothy of, you know, like, let's get back to again the feeling we once had and sort of informing her that the world is out there, that she's about to head into it. And we need this connection in order for you to go out there with that kind of confidence and strength. And anti does sing to Diana Ross in the movie a bit. But the song isn't directly for her. And in fact, Dorothy keeps going in and out of the room during the number. So it just sort of feels like it's there because it's. It's there. And I also. The other thing I feel with the best movie musicals. All right, because you're. You are right. Our attention spans are different now. So some of the best ones in the 60s, it doesn't necessarily do this, but I would argue from like, probably from like Little Shop of Horrors onwards, the best movie musicals, we do get like three or four numbers pretty close together to a. Keep our attention invested, but also to remind audiences you are watching a musical. Numbers are going to be happening. So, like, if you. I don't know, last time you, like, watched Chicago. But I mean, that's a very tight movie, right? All that jazz funny honey when you're good to mama Cell block tango. All are within, like the first 25 minutes.

[Ariana Grande]

Right.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Very close together. And they all. They introduce character or they move plot along. All that jazz overture moment of Chicago. I'm like, It's. That's like a masterclass of we're giving you high, you know, energy number. We're introducing Velma. We're introducing Roxy. We're showing you like, Velma has just clearly come from killing someone. By the end of the number, the police have shown up. Roxy is having an affair. Like, things are happening. And the wiz. The feeling we once had. It's. It's Thanksgiving and Diana Ross can't be in the room for longer than 20 seconds. That's all we get. So.

[Ariana Grande]

Right.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Yeah. I think it doesn't have to go full on Sound of Music where they're showing us the Alps of Switzerland for five minutes, where we even get to Julie Andrews twirling. We don't have to go that far, but we all. I mean, not to go super, super hardball with Chicago, but somewhere in the middle, especially when, you know, Quincy Jones does a very beautiful job making this movie sound lush and full. But as I said, like, some numbers that are much more. Have much more energy to them on stage for some reason, they kind of really dial it down for the movie. And it's a shame because I think that score is just so good.

[Ariana Grande]

Yeah.

[Cynthia Erivo]

And with the talent involved, you would expect it to be, you know, the. The. These numbers really should be like the definitive versions of these numbers, considering who's doing them and we're only a couple of them to really be that, I think is. Is unfortunate. I also forgot, by the way that they put if I could feel the Tin Man's number. They make that his intro instead of slide some oil to me.

[Ariana Grande]

Right.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Which I. I still don't know how I feel about that.

[Ariana Grande]

You know, speaking in general, I think that I understand sometimes why changes are made to movie musicals, but there's some that I just feel like maybe we should have just kept what we were already doing. And I don't know if in this case, that was more successful. One thing that really stands out to me, and it's not drastically different from what I know from the stage musical, but, like, A Brand New Day sounds different to me in the movie than it does on stage. Like, it sounds. Or maybe I'm just thinking of this recent revival where I felt like my ears were literally being blown off. Like, it's just like, Brand New Day is full of energy. It's full of sound, and just all the right noises happening together. And I felt like in the film, it was slightly muted. And I don't know, maybe if I had my headphones up, I don't know. But, like, it just didn't feel like it was the full.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Like, don't blame yourself, Geisha. You. You were out. You were in. Blame them. Blame them.

[Ariana Grande]

I was like, wait, like, why does this not feel as full? It just felt a little. It felt muted. And I think that that number, like, obviously my favorite number is Eason down the Road, but that number is supposed to be doing a lot of different things, and it just didn't feel. And again, maybe it was how it was shot, because these dancers are dancing. Like, dancing. And I'm like, first of all, how'd you find all these people to be this talented? Like, I'm looking, kicking their faces, literally giving everything they can possibly give. And so I don't know, just thinking about all this, maybe I'm being slightly unfair, because seeing a staged musical is different than seeing a movie musical in the sense that when I'm sitting in an audience at a theater, I'm going to feel that energy from the cast in a different way than I will feel from a movie musical. Not that I can't feel the energy, but, like, I'm in the same room with a cast of people versus being at home or at a movie theater. It's just a. It's a different vibe. So maybe that is contributing to it a little bit, but I just can't get over, like, even the. The Emerald City. So for the most recent Wiz revival, Emerald City, when act two come starts. Oh, my goodness gracious. And I mean, Their take on Emerald City and is one that I didn't necessarily expect. I thought it was going to be a little bit more. They basically made it modern. They made it. It felt like Renaissance. It felt like something of. When did it come out? In 2024. It felt like something in 2024 that we would see in terms of, like, a concert or performance and what have you. And so, I don't know. The long story long is that I just feel like there were some things that didn't land as hard for me in. In the movie. Now, speaking of the world of Oz and all of these different, you know, kind of properties that exist. Wicked, I was just saying to someone the other day, I was like, I don't know how people are seeing Wicked Movie and then going to see Wicked Musical. Like, for the people who are experiencing Wicked movies for the first time, and then they go to see the stage musical. I would just wonder what people are feeling and what they are talking about. Because Wicked Movie is like color song, boom, boom, stage tulips. Like, it's just like a whole, like, there. And then when you go and you see Wicked Musical, the stage is pretty simple. Like, there's color, there's definitely life, and all of these different things, but it is definitely not what you see in this cinematic explosion that is Wicked movies. So anyway, I just, I. I have so many thoughts about this because, like, I do want to continue to see stage musicals become movie musicals because I think it provides access to people who don't have access to theater. And I think that that's important. And also, I just think that things should exist in different mediums just so that that extends the legacy and the life of the art that was created. How we do that, though, is definitely, I think, still needs to be a part of the conversation even in 2025. Because, I mean, I tell you, there's some movie musicals where I'm like, why do we do this? Yeah, like, this. Because then people will see it. Like, for example, I remember when Mean Girls came out, there was a lot of conversation on Tick Tock. People were like, I didn't know it was a musical. I thought it was just a remake because there was no singing in the trailer. I'm like, let's never hide the singing. We can never hide the singing when it comes to a movie musical. I know we want to market it, but people will like musicals if we do them well. Like, they will love them. We love the Lion King. We love. I mean, there's so many different musicals that people don't even necessarily put a musical category that we love, but we can never just hide. Hide the fact that we are putting a musical in a theater and then just let people show up and think it was a remake. That can. That has to not ever happen again.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Yeah. Well, musicals, first of all. Music has been around since the dawn of time. And musical storytelling audiences have loved for hundreds of years music, musical theater, it's still a relatively new art form. It's only really been around for a hundred years, a little less than that, but it has persevered. We. We. It again, we. We were saying this on. On theater, all the moving parts. We are in a. We were in a valley with movie musicals for a while of a lot of them not being very good, and it's a very good one. And also celebrates that it is a musical and surprise, surprise, people are flocking to it. And movie musicals are. They are just hard to do in general. I think that is the hardest genre of film because theater is a. Is a living, breathing art form. And musical theater was created from that medium. Right. We had stage musicals before. We had film musicals and film musicals for every. We're just trying to catch up to stage musicals the entire time. And even when movie adaptations of stage musicals are happening in the 50s, 60s, 70s, a lot of them, you know, they made money, but they haven't aged as well because they were still kind of figuring out, how do you do it? There aren't a lot, I would argue, in terms of movie adaptations that have held up. There are the ones that do really hold up. Sound of Music holds up. I think the original west side Story holds up. I have. We can't go into it too much here because we only have so much time. But I have a whole diatribe about how the Oliver movie is actually kind of a phenomenal adaptation that acknowledges what film can do while honoring the musical material. I think what helps is that Oliver, in my opinion, is a mediocre stage show. So the movie was like, we don't have to, you know, do a cut, copy, paste job, but we'll. We'll keep the songs that work and move things around with the whiz. So I hear you about Brand New Day, and I think it goes back to what we were saying with something like ease on down the Road, which, you know, granted, is your favorite number in the movie. But, you know, that final. That there is a. That shot of them going down the road. It's like. I think it's. Is it one take? I can't Recall. But I do know, like, at the very least, at the end of it, for like 90 seconds, it is that. That wide shot of them from super far away with them, like dancing their. Their butts off and singing their. Their faces off. And it's a. It's a wonderful number. And. And the design is lovely. And you're like, why does this kind of feel, like, so stayed? And it's because the camera is so far away and just sitting there. And it's the same thing with everybody Rejoice slash, Brand new day. The camera, like, my mom was watching. She was like, oh, like, did you notice? Like, that dancer just made a mistake and like that proposal dropped. I was like, yeah. Cause Sidney Lumet is doing all of these like, like 82nd one takes in the long shot. And this choreography is insane. There's so many components going on. You're never going to get a take that is perfect.

[Ariana Grande]

Right? And.

[Cynthia Erivo]

And the camera's not. Is not dancing with the dancers. The editing isn't dancing with the dancers.

[Ariana Grande]

And.

[Cynthia Erivo]

And that number should just thrive. And on stage, it thrives because.

[Ariana Grande]

Right.

[Cynthia Erivo]

I mean, the music is so good. Like, yeah. You're like. It's being sung well, it's being danced well. But something about it just is. Either they. They're being too beholden to thinking that the talent will make up for whatever, or just there's. There's a. There's a miscommunication happening in the post with it. All right. And so I. I absolutely hear you, and I think you're absolutely correct. You. You want to make a movie that works while also channeling the thrill of seeing something in a live theater. And not a lot of people have been able to do it. Billy, I beg to differ with you.

[Ariana Grande]

How do you mean? You're the top. Yeah, you're an arrow collar. You're the top.

[Cynthia Erivo]

You're a Coolidge dollar.

[Ariana Grande]

You're the nimble tread of the feet of Freddy. We're so done with new Year. New you this year it's more you on Bumble. More of you shamelessly sending playlists, especially that one filled with show tunes. More of you finding Geminis because you know you always like them. More of you dating with intention because you know what you want. And you know what? We love that for you. Someone else will too be more you this year and find them on Bumble. You know, it's so interesting to me, like, kind of thinking about this musical, you know, and all. All the different iterations, because I was thinking about the Wiz Live I don't know if you saw that, but I did.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Yeah.

[Ariana Grande]

Literally, the thought I'm having is, does every musical need to be in every form? You know what I mean?

[Cynthia Erivo]

Yeah.

[Ariana Grande]

Like, for example, like, Hamilton, I think, has an excellent pro shot, but I don't think we need a Stage two movie musical of Hamilton. Yeah, I don't think it would work in the same way. And so I'm kind of wondering, like, for the Wiz, like, the Wiz Live, out of all of these different versions of the Wiz, the Wiz Live probably is my least favorite. And, like, no shade to the performers and the creative team, but, like, in terms of enjoyment level, that one is probably number three on the list because I very much. I think this. This is tough. I think I have to tie the Wiz movie, the Wiz film, with the Wiz on stage. It has to be kind of tied for me, and I really don't want to put it in a tie, but I have to, because I have not seen the original stage production. Yeah, I think it. I think it has to be tied. It just does.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Yeah, I hear you. I. So I. I won't go into too much. If people want to hear more. More about my thoughts on that revival that we had last year. I did do a review of it on the podcast and then talked about it When I did my final rankings of the season. I actually. I felt that Amber Ruffin's new book was actually quite good, but I did not enjoy the direction of the production. Shelley Williams, I don't know her personally, but every interview I've seen with her, I'm like, oh, you're an intelligent, articulate person, and everything you're saying makes total sense. But then I see the work, and I'm like, I don't think you translated what you were like. Like, you're great in the room pitching it. And then once I see, I'm like, I'm not seeing that on stage.

[Ariana Grande]

Right.

[Cynthia Erivo]

And so I was watching that revival, and I'm listening to the dialogue. I'm like, I'm. I am 85 confident. Ruffin's written a good scene here. I just don't like how it's being done, and I don't like the design of it. You know, all the AI, computer graphics, whatever. Right? Yeah. Because, like this, I absolutely think that the stage show has so much life to it and so much humor and cheek and style. And it's not perfect. The original production, I'm not holding up to a pedestal because the original libretto is. It's not a disaster. It's just not. It's very weak. It's basically an excuse to get to each number. And it's the Wiz's success wise kind of this miracle that happened because it was such a disaster out of town and they just sort of somehow they were able to figure out what made it work. But yeah, it's. How did I even get here? I've caught your fever. But yeah, I think I'm. I'm personally waiting for an interpretation of the ways since the original that can channel the joy and musical theater know how of the original version with.

[Ariana Grande]

Yeah.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Style and grandeur of the movie and a talent level of the movie that can maybe even make the book a little more cohesive, like the recent revival or even the Ways Live.

[Ariana Grande]

Right.

[Cynthia Erivo]

So. So you were saying. You were saying not everything on stage needs to be a film. I think that is 1000% gospel. And everyone should get. Every person in Hollywood and theater should get that tattooed on their arm. Not every movie that's successful should be a musical. Not every musical that's successful should be a movie. Like, yeah, I. I said this on a podcast a while ago that, you know, Hadestown should never be a movie. It lives, it succeeds because of its theatricality. And you're just. Once you make it literal on film, it's gonna die.

[Ariana Grande]

There is now, I won't be mad if there's a pro shot, like a really good pro shot, 1000. I don't know how it would work. Work as like a fully staged thing. You know what I mean?

[Cynthia Erivo]

Yeah.

[Ariana Grande]

On film, I feel like a pro shot. Yay. Anything else? I don't. I personally don't know. I mean, I don't look at it, but I don't know.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Yeah, I don't need it. In the same way that there's. They reported, I guess, like two, three years ago that they're developing La La land for the stage. And whatever anyone's opinions on the movie are, if you do find it successful, and I do, it's successful because it is an homage and love letter to movie musicals and specifically of the 50s movie musicals when, like, you had Fred Astaire whisper singing into the mic and like, that kind of thing. And, And. And it's specifically a love letter to cinema. And so the moment, like, well, we're gonna make it a stage show, I was like, oh, are you gonna rewrite the whole thing then? Because that's the only way that can. Can work. Like, how do you do a love letter to film on stage? It's. It's.

[Ariana Grande]

Right.

[Cynthia Erivo]

It's a different medium, so I don't know, but I think their eyes. Those producers go, well, I made half a billion dollars. I'm like, that's not enough of a reason, right?

[Ariana Grande]

It is for them.

[Cynthia Erivo]

But I mean, listen, every time people are like, well, it's a billion dollar enterprise. We can put it to the stage. I'm like, that's how we ended up with Back to the Future and did that. Is that still running? No. Oh, the. The. The bus. The bus is no longer in the station. It left.

[Ariana Grande]

You didn't like Back to the Future?

[Cynthia Erivo]

Sure did not. But we don't have to get into that.

[Ariana Grande]

Okay.

[Cynthia Erivo]

It's not the worst thing I ever saw. I just watched that. I was like, these. We didn't need to do this. It's fine. It's fine.

[Ariana Grande]

It's fine that I feel like Broadway in this current season and even seasons before is very much in this art form is dying. And so we need to create musicals that are based off of source material that people love so that we can sell tickets and get them to the theater. I feel like that's very much the season that we're in. Because if you look at just how many musicals recently have had a. Based off a book, based off a movie or whatever, I think that people are nervous that people will not give new things a try. And then when new things do pop up, they close before they even really have a chance to be open for a longer period of time. Like, it's been so long since we've seen, like, a Hayes town come onto the scene and, like, be commercially successful and be here year after year. That's not the norm anymore. Like, the government jobs of Broadway are like, you know, the Lion King and Hamilton and, you know, all the things. And I just don't know. Depending on what happens in the future, we could see more of those happen. You know, Six in Hadestown and Wicked. You know, we could see more musicals, stay a little bit longer. But, like, new, original musicals are not really having their shine in the way that they used to.

[Cynthia Erivo]

It's true. I think part of that is the economics of Broadway are so hard now that putting a musical up is already expensive. Keeping it running is expensive. And right people, if people are gonna drop 300 bucks, they want to know they're getting their money's worth. It's really difficult for a lot of people to take that chance, and I absolutely understand that. I will say we've had two shows this current season that really have taken off that are different from the norm one is Omar, but that is also. Which is very different from any success that we've had in a long time, which I appreciate.

[Ariana Grande]

Right.

[Cynthia Erivo]

I think Omari is also a great example of smart producing, of building buzz off Broadway. So, like, people will take a chance on something new. If there has been. If they've been assured from previous press and buzz, they're like, no, we tell you, this is good. The other one is maybe happy ending, which is an original piece. And I. I also don't want to fetishize original over adapted. Anything can be good. It can come from anywhere. My issue with Back to the Future is that I just found it a very lazy adaptation. Like, if something. If they. If anyone made an adaptation from a movie into a stage show and they did it, well, I will give their props. I will give them their flowers. Yeah, but maybe Happy ending. You know, everyone thought it was kind of DOA when it arrived because of everything you said. And luckily the community very much has, like, been very loud about, no, we are telling you, go see it. And people are starting to do it. But there have been plenty of other shows that haven't gotten their. Their chance, which is a shame. I hope that because you are right, a lot of people are going, well, we're IP the Musical. The Musical. And I'm hoping that we can learn lessons from these two things. One is like, okay, if you're gonna adapt the ip, give it a reason to be adapted. Give us something exciting and new to see, right? And if. And if you're gonna be original, really do the work to give us, to give it something exciting, don't just go. Because there have also. We won't name names on this podcast, but listeners of this podcast know maybe some shows I'm referring to. There have been original musicals that definitely came on Broadway. Not ready, not ready at all, but sort of looked in our faces like Veruca Salt and like, well, I'm an original musical, so you should support me. I'm like, are you a good original musical, Glinda? Are you a good original musical or a bad original musical? And they're like, I don't understand that question. I'm like, exactly. But I. I'm hoping, and maybe everyone can listen to us on this podcast today and. And take this lesson and go, oh, okay. Really? Like, think about what, as you said, you know, does this need to be made art? Whether you're a movie version of a stage show or your stage show being adapted or, you know, like, does. And not like, oh, does this meet the moment? Is this politically what we want? Or is this, like, just is. Do I. Do you have a take? The whole reason the Wiz stage show came about was the producer was like. He was seeing. In this time where there was. Pearl Bailey famously went into hello Dolly, the original hello Dolly. I think it's like, halfway through the run, and they did it all black cast, and it was a huge success. And Broadway, rather than go, oh, we have so much black talent that we really should be writing for them, they're like, oh, well, now we'll do an all black Guys and Dolls. We'll do an all black. And it took this producer being like, what if we wrote a new musical? And we'll. We'll have, like, sort of a safe space, so it'll be our take on the wizard of Oz. And.

[Ariana Grande]

Right.

[Cynthia Erivo]

And of course, lo and behold, having that take on it, because it was unique and they really honed it. It blew up and we gave us the movie we had and all these other iterations and. Yes, but. But then when making the movie, they weren't thinking, like, well, should this be a movie? Or, like, even if it is movie, how do we make it one? They're like, well, you know, we've got Diana Ross and Michael Jackson. Just put a camera on them and let it go. I'm like, no, no, no, no.

[Ariana Grande]

Right. And I just. I just have to say that I really feel like in all of these different mediums that this exists. The talent is always there in some way, shape or form in terms where there is dance, music, singing, whatever. There is always like, wow, talent, talent, talent. It is the execution of these different things that don't always align and make them the masterpieces I think they were intended to be. And I mean, obviously art is subjective. This is personally my opinion. But, like, I feel like kind of what you said earlier, there is a whiz in the vault or brewing somewhere in the cauldron, if you will, that we have not experienced yet that is really going to blow people's minds. I think it takes really, like, a longer period of development over time to figure out what that is and how that will hit in whatever, you know, decade we're living in at that time. But I feel like there is a Wiz that we have not experienced yet that literally will have people being like, oh, my goodness gracious, because the music is too good. Like, the music is so good. And I just feel like. Like it's a combination of things that are not Fully in alignment, while some of these versions maybe don't fully like, land in the way that they are intended.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Yeah, absolutely. I think there's a negative and a positive legacy with this movie. The positive legacy is it has really given an inspiration to many BIPOC performers since it came out of really kind of going on home video and being on TV and, And showing like you can go out and be successful and be the center of this giant, mega, million dollar enterprise. It's there, the opportunities exist. The downside is what the theater community has taken away stylistically from the movie is like, oh, okay, so now every interpretation of the Wiz should be even more edgy and more on the cusp of pop culture. So like, I, I know I mentioned this last revival, but there, there was a major production at La Jolla starring Nicki M. James that was directed by Des Macanoff and that was all about like, cameras and multimedia and like just things that have nothing to do with the wizard of Oz. And then they did it at City center and encores for one of their summer productions. And that starred. Who started in. That was that. I think that was Ashanti. Is that my. No, maybe Lashan's. I know was Auntie Emmon and Glinda. Bunch of other people. But that was directed by Tommy Kail. And that one. They kind of went back and forth. They went semi between the movie and the original and, and, and. But it wasn't as joyous and as full of magic as the wizard of Oz, which the whole point of the Wiz was. We want to channel that, but with our, with our point of view and our heritage. And I think that we need to kind of go, start, go back to basics first and then and bloom from there. At least that is my feeling. And I'm hoping someone out there feels the same way and will do so because as you said, like, the score is incredible and we can't just rely on the talent to sell it. You want to set the talent up for success. Like, lay it up so they can spike. Spike the. I was going to make a sports analogy and I failed, but lay it up so they can spike the ball. Let's just say that, you know, because it's, It's. I don't think the Wiz will ever objectively be a great musical. I think that the book is just. The roots of that book are a little too weak. And the wizard of Oz as a novel is just so episodic that it's really hard to give it an arc. But you can make it a thrilling night of theater and really an inspiring night of theater if you don't just rely on the music and the talent, like, really kind of figure it out from all angles and. And. And give it the joy that it deserves, you know?

[Ariana Grande]

Yeah, yeah. I fully agree. And, like. Like, build it out in a way that you really feel like you're in this different world. That's, like, the. The biggest thing for me when it comes to this musical period. I want to feel like I am in the world that you're building. And I don't know if in. I mean, I would say I have to look back at it because, again, it's been years since I've seen the Wiz Live, but I feel like, because it's TV and there's a different budget, and a lot of this, I feel like, does come back to budget. Like, what resources were available for this thing to be made, like, for it to happen? And were we working. What kind of funds were we actually working with? But the Wiz Live. I do remember being like, okay, come on, budget. Like, I just remember seeing it and being like, okay, clearly money was invested to make this thing. The thing.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Yeah.

[Ariana Grande]

I felt about the most recent revival that I was like, man, I wish that they had more actual sets. I kept thinking, I want to see the thing and not just on the screen. Like, I know that we're in this age now where we are using more digital screens, screens, whatever, in theater, and sometimes they are successful, and other times they are not. But the thing that I like about theater is that I would prefer just to see the set built. But I understand that that request comes with. That's going to cost more money to have that thing exist. But I don't know. I prefer it. I like it. I like it better when the sets are built.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Absolutely. And I think for me, you know, having projections, whatever, it's all fine. It's a matter of how you mesh it together. I think you can find a world with realistic sets and projections and make it feel just as great. I mean, I don't know if you've seen the Great Gatsby on Broadway. Yeah, yeah. That is. My feelings on that show aside, the design of that show is actually very clever because it has a bunch of practical sets, but it also has far more projections than people realize. They are just married really well with the sets, right? With the sets. Yeah. And. And I've seen other shows like An American in Paris that used projections really well. The Wiz was just. That was a revival that was designed to tour that. They then came to Broadway for a few months. And you watch like, oh, this is a. This is a tour set. These are eight panels that get broken down and put in trucks and get put into any new theater. And.

[Ariana Grande]

And now it's going back on tour.

[Cynthia Erivo]

It is. It is going back on. On tour. It didn't have. It did not have a flair, a stylistic flair for me, the way you talked about Emerald City in the movie. Right. And.

[Ariana Grande]

Right.

[Cynthia Erivo]

That absolutely does have style. But unfortunately, because Sidney Lumet was like, no, let's do everything in the. In the long shot, which is a shame. Also, the thing that Cindy Lumet did that really sets that movie up to fail is by being in the long shot. And we'll wrap things up because she has to head out soon. Like, the Emerald City, that's, like, you look at the screen, it's objectively like 100, 150 people in that shot. A very wide plaza that is shot from a mile away, so it looks empty. And that is unfair because 150 people is a lot.

[Ariana Grande]

Right.

[Cynthia Erivo]

And that is a case where it doesn't have to be, you know, up into somebody's pores, but that is a case where the. The. The close up and the editing and. And a swirling of a camera can really make 150 people look like a thousand people.

[Ariana Grande]

Right.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Going back to Wicked, we all saw the pictures of the Munchkinland set when, you know, paparazz were taking photos of it, and we're like, oh, that looks small and dingy, and why there are only, like, 90 people on set. But the way that Jon M. Chu edited together made it look far bigger and far more populated than it was. And that's just smart movie magic. Yeah. Yeah, that's. That's an example for me of the Wiz movie where Cindy Lumet did not set his cast up for success because they are dressed beautifully, they are serving, you know, RuPaul Drag Race Runway realness, very Castellica ball. But it's there. How can. How can what? Their. How can their personality come through when the camera's a mile away?

[Ariana Grande]

Right? Like, I wanted to see some of those, like, fascinators and hats and all the different headwear and the neck where I wanted to see it up close because I'm like, I need to go get one of those for myself. I can't see it. I can't see the details. And the details, I think, do matter, you know, I mean, as I was watching it, I was like, wow, that's A lot of people to dress because when they were in green, then they were in red and they were in gold. I was like, all those people need all those costumes. And I was like, are we backing away because we don't want to show maybe some of the imperfections that we're trying to hide? Like, I was trying to think about like the production side of it and maybe that wasn't a thing at all and that was just the artistic choice that that director made. But I did want to see more up close. I wanted to see their facial expressions because, I mean, they were doing some really iconic things and I wanted, I wanted to be closer to it.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Absolutely. So last thing and then we'll go. I was looking at the award situation for this movie and it didn't get any Golden Globe nominations, but it got a couple of, of Oscar nominations. Didn't win. One was adaptation of a score for Quincy Jones cinematography, which I don't agree with that nomination at all. Again, because you're saying, like, I just don't think the movie's terribly well shot. They were nominated for production design, AKA the sets, but not costume design. And I do think, well, I think it's because what we were saying, the camera's always just so far away. You don't get the intricacies of those costumes a lot. You don't, as I said, you don't see the fascinators. You don't get a lot of the details that I think are probably there because money was, this money was spent on this movie at that time. I think it was the most expensive movie musical made, not adjusted for inflation or anything.

[Ariana Grande]

Yeah.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Because the camera was always taking in the grandeur and the scale of the sets. Got an impression of what went into that, but not always what went into the costumes. And I wonder, this is me putting on my tinfoil hat right now and doing my Homeland cork board being like, if this happened, like, I don't know if we had more close ups in that movie, they might have gone a costume nomination because Oscar voters would have seen the details of those costumes.

[Ariana Grande]

Right. And I think the, I mean, the costumes, in my opinion, is one of the more impressive parts about the movie. So that's really interesting. I, Huh. I guess that makes sense. Maybe that's not. Maybe.

[Cynthia Erivo]

I think that's where you, you and I, I think that's where our eyes go and we are able to. Not to say that we're better than 1978 Oscar voters, but aren't we? Like, we're able to see this and recognize that the camera's not doing the costumes justice while still seeing that the costumes are good.

[Ariana Grande]

Right?

[Cynthia Erivo]

Yeah. I think this is. This whole episode, by the way, is this is the inciting incident that gets you and I to either get funding for our own production of the Wiz or where you and I get to reshoot the Emerald City sequence of the movie with our. With, you know, our own designs and our own ideas, and we collaborate and we get this thing made, and we're like, guys, this is what it should be. And then we get our own Wiz remake.

[Ariana Grande]

Listen, I love how you think manifesting.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Yeah, let's go. Yeah. Listen, I would love to be an assistant director for the Wiz again for a production that's not Emerson College. I would like. I would like to. I would be happy to assist an artist on that movie and just help them carry out their vision. I'm happy to do it. And I. If you're that artist Geisha, so. So be it.

[Ariana Grande]

Okay. Period. Listen, I. This is a show that is on my list. I don't actually even know who I want to play or, like, what I would even want to do in a production of the Wiz, but it is one that I actually do want to do.

[Cynthia Erivo]

This is where you and I will get drinks at Glasshouse Tavern, and I'll bring my journal and. And I will pick your brain and we will figure it out. This is what. This is what I'm good for. This. I help. I help bring these things out in people. So I love it. You guys heard it here, 2028. It's going to happen. With $100 million budget and cast to be determined. All right, Kyesha, this has been wonderful. I know you have to go. Thank you so much for indulging me. Where can people find you if you want them to find you?

[Ariana Grande]

You can find me at Kyisha creates on every social media platform. I post the most on Instagram, Tik Tok, YouTube, and on Substack, which I'm new to. And I'm like, obsessed and I love. But yeah, I'm Kaisha. Creates everywhere.

[Cynthia Erivo]

That's wonderful. If you want to follow me, guys, I'm on Instagram only at Matt Koplik. Usual spelling. If you like the podcast, please give us a nice 5 star rating or even write a review. You guys have been killing with reviews lately. Next episode will be the end of the Grab Bag series, which is going to be three episodes each on Angels in America. And it's three episodes because there's no way that one episode will be able to cover the whole thing. Believe me, you're gonna. Yeah, you guys are gonna hear that. Kaisha, we close out. Out every episode with a diva Broadway film, what have you. And it can be connected to what we've talked about, or it can be just a diva you. A Broadway diva you love. I put in the song in post. But what. What musical theater diva would you like to close us out today?

[Ariana Grande]

Heather Headley. Ah, yeah. Yeah. That's my queen. I knew I liked you. I love her so much. I want her on Broadway more. I'm like, give me Heather Headley every single time.

[Cynthia Erivo]

She. When. When Audra has decided she's finished with. With Gypsy.

[Ariana Grande]

Heather.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Heather, get in there. I don't care what it takes. We do it.

[Ariana Grande]

Heather. I am obsessed with her. I literally watch Still Magnolias on Netflix just because she's in it.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Oh, God. I. I can't. We can't. You have to go. I can't talk about it, but thank you so much for.

[Ariana Grande]

I'll come back and we'll talk about it 1,000%.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Oh, God. I could talk about that woman till we're both blue in the face. Okay, thank you, Kaisha. Guys, join us next week. We look forward to having you there. Take it away, Heather.

[Ariana Grande]

Bye. On my days in the storm, you touch me, you understand what happened?