THE WOMEN w/ Adam Elsberry

Summary

Broadway Breakdown: “THE WOMEN” w/ Adam Elsberry

Episode Date: December 12, 2024
Host: Matt Koplik
Guest: Adam Elsberry
Key Theme: A deep-dive into Claire Boothe Luce’s iconic 1936 play The Women—its biting wit, social commentary, queer legacy, Broadway and film adaptations, and why, for all its iconic lines and unforgettable characters, it’s still kind of a trash fire.

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Overview

Matt Koplik and regular guest “gunkle of the pod” Adam Elsberry tackle Claire Boothe Luce’s all-female 1936 play The Women, dissecting its plot, characters, biting humor, and problematic legacy. They contrast the play with the more widely-loved 1939 Hollywood film, detail the 2001 Roundabout Broadway revival, discuss drag interpretations, and muse on why queer audiences (and theater queens) have latched onto its bitchy entertainment. Expect deep analysis, four-letter words, and gay canon realness.

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Main Discussion Points & Insights

1. What Is The Women?

• Premise: The play centers on Mary Haynes, a New York socialite whose husband cheats with a shopgirl, Crystal Allen, and the ripple effects this has among a circle of “frenemies.” All roles—onstage and off—are female. The men are only ever talked about, never seen.
• Adam: “Since nobody ever really fully gets along with anybody in this show, but it ultimately focuses on Mary Haynes, who finds out she’s being cheated on by her husband with a shop girl named Crystal Allen.” [05:13]
• Matt: “We cover plays on this goddamn podcast.” [03:52]

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2. The Play’s Tone & Legacy

• Satire meets Cynicism: The play satirizes high society women, but its actual message is surprisingly conservative and regressive: “At the heart of it, it’s like, you’re a woman, be a wife.” [07:03]
• Adam: “It’s a bitchy entertainment.” [07:17]
• Gay Canon: The film adaptation’s enduring legacy—a “gay canon” staple thanks to its quotable script, biting wit, and pure camp.
  • “It was sort of like gay canon. Just because it was so quotable and bitchy and cunty...” [08:46]

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3. The 1939 Movie vs. The Play

• Greater Legacy: The film (Crawford, Shearer, Russell, Goddard) is better known and beloved than the original play.
• Movie’s Strengths:
  • Hays Code: Forces the script to punish its characters’ “sins” but brings closure and sharper plotting.
  • Iconic lines: Many of the play’s most bitchy, legendary bits are movie inventions or expansions (by Anita Loos).
• Matt: “The movie is what people remember. The movie is what most people quote.” [08:33]

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4. Claire Boothe Luce: Contradiction in Terms

• A Trailblazer—And a Conservative
  • Accomplished journalist, playwright, open marriage, ambassador, sexually liberated, yet deeply conservative in her ideology about women.
  • Matt: “For all that, she was very much like, women just really want to get married and have babies. And I think that’s what they should be doing.” [27:02]
  • The play, beloved in feminist and queer circles, is steeped in a “wife first” worldview.

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5. Plot Structure & Character Dynamics

“The Big Four”

• Mary Haynes: The wealthy, naive protagonist.
• Sylvia Fowler: Mary’s best “frenemy”—cunning, two-faced, and the instigator who exposes Mary to the truth about her husband’s affair.
• Crystal Allen: The ambitious shopgirl “other woman”; written to be unapologetically predatory and detested, yet still a showstopper.
• Edith & Peggy: Secondary friends, representing different angles of marital trouble and societal pressure.

Key Character Insights

• Mary: “In the play, she’s just getting tossed around like a rag doll by everybody because she thinks that everything is fine. She takes everything at face value.” [40:20]
• Crystal: “Crystal in the play is actually even worse than Crystal in the movie.” [46:14] Mean, direct, and self-serving.
• Sylvia: The ultimate “vindictive cunt”—the template for every evil sidekick and “housewife” to come.
  • “Sylvia is someone who would tell you she wrote a play. She wrote five plays.” [40:07]

Gossip as Blood Sport

• “It’s all gossip. And every scene is centered around some type of gossip that reveals some kind of information to propel things forward.” [06:55]

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6. Notable Comparisons, Quotes & Legacy

Birth of “Bitchy Comedy”

• Adam: “This is probably the birth of bitchy comedy. For sure.” [09:25]
• Movie lines that live forever:
  • “There’s a name for you ladies, but it’s not used in high society… outside of a kennel.” (Joan Crawford, 53:54)
  • “Thanks for the tip, but if anything I wear doesn’t please Steven, I take it off.” (Joan Crawford, 48:44)
• Queer Appeal: The style, the wit, the “everyone’s a bitch” vibe—The Women directly inspires drag, gay camp, and everything from Valley of the Dolls to Dynasty.

The Bechdel Irony

• Matt: “It is not a Bechdel test play.” [20:16]
  • Women never appear with men, and yet talk about nothing but men—satirizing but reinforcing their social roles.

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7. Broadway & Stage History

Productions:

• Original (1936): Smash hit—666 performances.
• 1970s Revival (1972/74): Short run; little impact.
• Roundabout Revival (2001): Cynthia Nixon, Jennifer Tilly, Kristen Johnston, Jennifer Coolidge, Mary Louise Wilson, Rue McClanahan.
  • Mixed/poor reviews. Matt: “It was not well received. No one really talks about it much. You can watch the whole thing on YouTube.” [107:08]
  • Key Moments:
    • Jennifer Coolidge steals scenes as Edith (“Edith has an addiction to popping out cum nuggets.” [62:55]).
    • A bizarre attempt at social commentary—Julie Halston, mud mask, and a black attendant (a sideways blackface joke) [104:29].
    • Slow pacing and stilted staging: “The direction was just really draggy… at 1.5 speed, it felt more like the tempo of the film.” [111:16]

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8. The Drag Queen & Queer Legacy

• Ideal Format: Many believe only a cast of drag queens or campy gay men can do The Women justice today.
  • “That is it now… you need people... with the sensibility to make it happen.” [117:16]
  • Legendary NYC drag/artists like Charles Busch and Lippsinka have performed it.
  • Matt: “I would love to watch Jennifer Simard in The Women.” [118:53]
• Adam: “I think that's the only way you could do it—just… feels demoralizing [with women]. But with drag, it would feel lovingly parodying.” [122:01]

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9. Broader Cultural Impact

• Influenced generational comedy and TV: From Golden Girls to Sex and the City to Housewives and “real-life” dynasties.
• Matt: “The women is really the grandmama of all of the divas being assholes that we love.” [71:58]
• Why do we love watching bitches?: “Who doesn’t want to look like a million dollars and say the exact right thing at the exact right moment and be able to walk away leaving everyone speechless?” [73:15]

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Notable Quotes & Moments

• Matt (on Claire Boothe Luce’s hypocrisy): “She was liberated… But for all that, she was very much like, women just really want to get married and have babies. And I think that’s what they should be doing.” [27:02]
• Adam (on Broadway slow-downs): “If a play is just not landing, it is… But yeah, but when those songs and those rhythms are Paradise Square, is it really worth it?” [108:16]
• On the Women’s enduring appeal:
  “I don’t think it needs to be revived. I would go watch a drag queen production for sure… I think it would just come off a little sad now.” [129:36, 122:01]

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Timestamps for Key Segments

• Who they're talking about: [05:02] – Adam explains the plot; [40:20] – Mary as naive protagonist; [46:14] – Crystal’s cruelty.
• On the play vs. movie: [09:47] – Movie offers closure via Hays Code; [47:33] – Adding sharp lines.
• On Claire Boothe Luce: [24:01] – Not southern, contrary to Flying Over Sunset; [27:02] – Contradictory queen.
• Mary and her friends: [40:20-51:29] – Detailed breakdowns of Mary, Crystal, Sylvia, Edith, Peggy, Nancy, et al.
• Sylvia as the ultimate backstabber: [67:03-77:29] – Her role, motivation, and dynamic with the group.
• Reno plot & climactic catfight: [84:30-87:14] – Miriam’s affair with Sylvia’s husband; drag-out battle; bitchery at its best.
• 2001 Roundabout Revival: [99:33-111:56] – Casting, tepid reception, odd directorial choices.
• Drag queen/queer legacy: [115:51-122:38] – Why it works best en drag.

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Final Thoughts and Verdict

• The play is memorable for its lines, characters, and “bitchy entertainment,” but it simply can’t compare to the film adaptation for sharpness, closure, and pacing.
• Quote (Matt): “Think of it not as a play with something to say, because the truth is that it doesn’t and it never really did.” [122:13]
• And, in the age of drag femme worship: “If we can incorporate more of the movie stuff in there, and that sensibility, and dial it up to 11, I think that’s how we get our women back.” [122:13]

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Recommendations

• Watch the 1939 movie. The play’s a slog, but the film is a classic of gay camp, snappy dialogue, and “bitchy” brilliance.
• Skip the Roundabout revival, but catch Jennifer Coolidge’s best bits.
• Catch a drag staging if you ever can. Some things, only a queen can do justice.

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Episode Closer

The pod closes with the customary showtune (Rosalind Russell from Wonderful Town) and classic podcast banter.
Matt: “I don’t know why otherwise why we would need to do this play again on Broadway... Cynthia Nixon talked about how the place has a lot more to say than the movie does. To which I say, Cynthia, you only say that because you were in the woods with it.”

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For more Broadway breakdowns and spicy theater talk:
https://bwaybreakdown.substack.com?utm_medium=podcast

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The Women—where everyone’s a bitch, but only half of them know it.

Transcript

[Matt Koplik]

Women gotta stick together all across this.

[Adam Ilsbury]

Land Except Denise Martinez, that bitch I cannot stand. Oh, hey, Denise.

[Matt Koplik]

Hey, girl. Female's helping female like this girl here with the blotchy face.

[Adam Ilsbury]

She banged her best friend's boyfriend in the bathroom of that half price two she flakes.

[Matt Koplik]

What? Oh, you didn't know?

[Adam Ilsbury]

So let's all spread this message like.

[Matt Koplik]

Hey, let's spread disease Cause a change is coming faster Then Ashley drops to her knees Together we can clear these.

[Adam Ilsbury]

Hurdles Except Marissa, country's four foot eight.

[Matt Koplik]

We can climb every mountain if the.

[Adam Ilsbury]

Rope can support Haley's way.

[Matt Koplik]

Hello all you theater lovers both out and proud on the DL and welcome back to Broadway Breakdown, a podcast discussing the history legacy of American theater's most exclusive address, Broadway. I'm your host, Matt Koplik, the least famous and most opinionated of all the Broadway podcast hosts. And with us today is the gunkle of the Pod. You know him, some of you say you love him. I don't believe you, but we did miss him. Either way, please welcome back Adam Ilsbury.

[Adam Ilsbury]

He's back. He's back.

[Matt Koplik]

Adam, thank you so much for coming back.

[Adam Ilsbury]

Hi. Thanks for having me. It's been far too long. Partially my own fault.

[Matt Koplik]

Well, yes, you've been very busy.

[Adam Ilsbury]

I've been busy. I also, with conflict of interest with work, couldn't come in for some of the Tony Award episodes.

[Matt Koplik]

You can't come for the Tony episodes ever. Which is. Which is fine.

[Adam Ilsbury]

It's sad. I really wanted to talk about some of that stuff this year, too.

[Matt Koplik]

It's fine. I did just fine without you.

[Adam Ilsbury]

I know.

[Matt Koplik]

I listened to oh, you're the One, but you are back now for a deep dive. Yes, it's true. And I will say you and I both came into this being like, who knows who's gonna listen to this? Who knows how long this episode is gonna be, how short it's gonna be? But if ever there was someone who I want for this play, when I picked it out of Sally bowl for Grab Bag. Oh, I forgot to say, this series is called Grab Bag and it's covering shows that you submitted and I picked out of a bowl. There we go. That was part of the intro. I forgot.

[Adam Ilsbury]

What was the total number of submissions? Wasn't it like 300?

[Matt Koplik]

Over 400? Yeah. Holy crap. But, well. But, like, it was. People submitted, I think, like five. Yeah, you could submit up to five. Okay, so some people did a total of five, and some people did like three, but it was over 400. I want to say, like 400. 50 separate submissions. So that was like something's quadrupled. Or did. Like, we had 15 submissions for Great Comet, 15 for Angels in America, and yet we didn't pick out. Great comment. What we did pick out was the women. Hey. Hey. Which is what we're covering today.

[Adam Ilsbury]

That's right, yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

Now, Adam, for the Uncultured fucks, what is the women about?

[Adam Ilsbury]

Well, Matt, it's about women.

[Matt Koplik]

But what are they?

[Adam Ilsbury]

Wait, I have to tell. Wait, I have to say something really quick. So a couple of days ago, I was just telling Matt this before we started recording. I was listening to his Passion episode that he recorded with Ali Gordon, and at one the episode, and you were always like, I never remember what I say, so don't come at me with quotes, because I won't remember. But at one point, you were like, give me a dollar and I'll name you a woman. Do you remember saying that?

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah. Well, isn't that Billy Eichner?

[Adam Ilsbury]

Yes, sir.

[Matt Koplik]

For a dollar, name a woman.

[Adam Ilsbury]

Yeah, for a dollar, name a woman. And so I, for many dollars, were naming all the women.

[Matt Koplik]

All of the women.

[Adam Ilsbury]

All the women. Yeah, the women. It's a play. It's a play, Matt. It's not a musical. It's a play.

[Matt Koplik]

We cover plays on this goddamn podcast.

[Adam Ilsbury]

I know you call me in for plays all the time.

[Matt Koplik]

Do I?

[Adam Ilsbury]

Just this one, I've done Noises Off. I've done Significant Other. Significant other, and now this. There was one other play, I think.

[Matt Koplik]

No, I think that's it. Because Noises. Because you did. For Sondheim, you did Do I Hear a Waltz?

[Adam Ilsbury]

Yes.

[Matt Koplik]

For British Invasion, you did Noises Off. Yes. You did not do Tesori. No, I didn't. For Underestimated. You did Sideshow. Oh, that's right. Which at the time, was our longest episode ever. Then you did Significant Other for the Big Move.

[Adam Ilsbury]

Yep, yep, yep.

[Matt Koplik]

Um, and then. Did you.

[Adam Ilsbury]

The last one I think I did was a year ago. For Promises, promises, promises.

[Matt Koplik]

For problematic a.

[Adam Ilsbury]

Was that a year ago?

[Matt Koplik]

That was a year ago.

[Adam Ilsbury]

Holy crap.

[Matt Koplik]

I know. She's back. She's back. You. And the good news is that the last two times Adam was on, I did tear. I don't expect to tear during this one.

[Adam Ilsbury]

I don't think that'll happen today.

[Matt Koplik]

No, I mean, listen, there's. There's always connections to our lives, to shows and movies that we see, even if it's like the longest of threads, but. But no. Who cries watching the women? Except for Cynthia Nixon.

[Adam Ilsbury]

Oh, man.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah. Girlfriend loves to cry. What Is the Women about Adam?

[Adam Ilsbury]

The Women is a play by Claire Boothe Luce from 1936. It's about a group of New York socialites who are, I'll say, frenemies.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah.

[Adam Ilsbury]

Since nobody really ever fully gets along with anybody in this show, but it ultimately focuses on Mary Haynes, who finds out that she's being cheated on by her husband with a shop girl named Crystal. Wait, Crystal.

[Matt Koplik]

Crystal Allen?

[Adam Ilsbury]

Crystal Allen.

[Matt Koplik]

The scandal.

[Adam Ilsbury]

Crystal Allen.

[Matt Koplik]

It's not even one of her friends. It's a goddamn shop girl at Saks Blacks in the movie.

[Adam Ilsbury]

That's right. Cause they couldn't get clearance for Saks Fifth Blacks.

[Matt Koplik]

Fifth Avenue. Black's Fifth Avenue.

[Adam Ilsbury]

Jesus.

[Matt Koplik]

The laziest.

[Adam Ilsbury]

But ultimately, Crystal takes.

[Matt Koplik]

She's a shop girl at Groomingdales.

[Adam Ilsbury]

Groomingdales, ladies and gentlemen. I'm going over to Kirgdorf and Budman.

[Matt Koplik]

Sorry, Zurgdorf. It's like the 30 Rock episode where Chen is doing all the knockoff. Prader Manulu Blunig.

[Adam Ilsbury]

Oh, my God.

[Matt Koplik]

Sorry, continue. So, yes, Crystal Allen is the.

[Adam Ilsbury]

Crystal Allen is the whore who's fucking the married man. And basically Mary spends the entire rest of the show trying to wrestle her husband back out of Crystal's hands.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah, well, yes and no. She spends. She also, like, spends a. A lot of time morally figuring out what's the right thing to do. Oh, yeah.

[Adam Ilsbury]

I mean, I know we're going to get into all of these things.

[Matt Koplik]

We will, we will.

[Adam Ilsbury]

I'm.

[Matt Koplik]

I'm broad stroking and everyone has opinions and everyone is getting cheated on in some respect. Like either someone's husband is cheating on them or they're cheating on their husband, or friends are talking behind their back.

[Adam Ilsbury]

It's all gossip. And every scene is centered around some type of gossip that reveals some kind of information to propel things forward.

[Matt Koplik]

And the play doesn't have a lot to say. It's mostly meant to sort of be a satire of high society ladies, but ultimately, at the heart of it, it's like, you're a woman, be a wife.

[Adam Ilsbury]

Yeah. It's a bitchy entertainment.

[Matt Koplik]

Yes, yes. So we asked on the Discord Channel what people, any topics, questions people had for it. And again, if you haven't joined the Discord yet, please do. And unsurprisingly, there weren't many submissions for this one. The play itself was a big old hit, a big titty hit, as we like to say, in 1936, ran for almost two years and immediately made into a giant movie.

[Adam Ilsbury]

666 performances, according to the opening credits. Of the film.

[Matt Koplik]

Exactly. Which is like, for 1936. That was at big old run. It's a lot. Yeah, it was a big run and, you know, made it to a movie.

[Adam Ilsbury]

Unless you like Tobacco Road.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah, but who's Tobacco Road? Tobacco Road. Tobacco Road. But no, we're not gonna keep.

[Adam Ilsbury]

I'm not gonna start singing.

[Matt Koplik]

We're gonna keep going.

[Adam Ilsbury]

Keep going, Matt. Keep going.

[Matt Koplik]

We're keeping going. Made into a movie. Made into a movie with the likes of Joan Crawford, Norma Shearer, Rosalind Russell, Joan Fontaine, Paulette Goddard. Other people. Other people. Other people.

[Adam Ilsbury]

Other amazing people.

[Matt Koplik]

The kid's sister, Dinah Lord in Philadelphia Story. Lots. Lots of really awesome people. And the movie, I would argue, has the more beloved and longer legacy than the play.

[Adam Ilsbury]

Yes.

[Matt Koplik]

And there's the ease of. The fact that it is a movie. You can share it, you know, in cinemas and put it on TV and all these other things. But the movie is what people remember. The movie is what most people quote.

[Adam Ilsbury]

Yes.

[Matt Koplik]

Well.

[Adam Ilsbury]

And it's kind of become, well, I guess less so nowadays, but for a while it was sort of like gay canon.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah.

[Adam Ilsbury]

Just because it was so quotable and bitchy and cunty and.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah. Before the Golden Girls, before Dynasty, it was this.

[Adam Ilsbury]

I was gonna talk about at some point, this sort of. It's interesting to visit it and see really how much it influenced future comedy of that style. Cause was there much before then?

[Matt Koplik]

Of what?

[Adam Ilsbury]

Of comedy. That was that like, just that was that biting, Especially of. Of women speaking to each other like that.

[Matt Koplik]

I think this is probably the birth of bitchy comedy. For sure. There's. I mean, there's no Coward, which I guess you could say, but that's a little more dry.

[Adam Ilsbury]

It's not as acerbic and it's lighter.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah. It's not as mean spirited. Everyone's just silly.

[Adam Ilsbury]

Yeah. Yeah. I mean, yeah, the women, if anything, is really cynical.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah, Very, very cynical. And the movie, I think, gets away with it more because ultimately, because of the Hays Code, a lot of sins that these characters do had to be punished in the end. That's. That was the whole point of the Hays Code. And so there's. The movie has a sense of closure and conclusion at the end that the play doesn't.

[Adam Ilsbury]

Yes.

[Matt Koplik]

So it's just. It just feels more fulfilling in the movie, even if you're like, oh, we didn't have to go that hard on that person. It's more like, okay, like this just now finally feels like a wrapped up storyline. Whereas in the play, like it all, we'll get to it. But the last 15 minutes of the play feel very jumbled and rushed.

[Adam Ilsbury]

It's just sort of chaos. And the curtain goes down on chaos.

[Matt Koplik]

Exactly. With Mary kind of winning in the end, but in a weird way.

[Adam Ilsbury]

But we don't know for sure.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah. Because also, like. Yeah. So how did the women enter your chat, Adam?

[Adam Ilsbury]

God. I think the first. I remember. I don't know if I even watched at all. The first time I was aware of it was when. It was when Roundabout Revival revived it in 2000. 2001. 2001. And I watched. I think I watched half of it on PBS at the time. Sounds about right. And then shortly after, I moved to New York, which was in 2003. For those of you doing math for my age, good luck. Good old Hedda Lettuce, the drag queen used to. She still does them on occasion, but they're far fewer. They're fewer and further. But every week on Thursdays in Chelsea at Chelsea Cinemas, she would host Chelsea Classics. And she would. And it would always be some movie, basically, that, like, fell within the gay canon. Like, there I saw. What did I see there? I saw, like, the Bad Seed there. Whatever Happened to Baby Jane? Valley of the Dolls, all of these, like, you know, gay Classics. And the Women was one of them. And that was the first time that I ever saw it was in a movie theater with a whole lot of homos.

[Matt Koplik]

That's a great way to be introduced to it.

[Adam Ilsbury]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

You said the Bad Seed, Valley of the Dolls, the women. What was the other one you said.

[Adam Ilsbury]

Whatever Happened to Baby Jane?

[Matt Koplik]

So. Okay, keep talking. But that. Those all have a theme for me of why. Of why they're gay canon.

[Adam Ilsbury]

Totally. But, yeah, I mean, they were. I can't remember. Now we're talking. This was, like, almost 20 years ago at this point that I started going to that. But it was.

[Matt Koplik]

So you were 12? I was 12.

[Adam Ilsbury]

But that was my intro to it. And then I've watched the film a couple of times in years since then, and I. A local production, not in New York, but a local, you know, community theater production of it somewhere at one point.

[Matt Koplik]

Well, that sounds heavenly. That was great. They were on that stage and they said their lines. I am me with the father that I have.

[Adam Ilsbury]

Oh, right, of course.

[Matt Koplik]

So of course I saw the Women, the movie first at, like, probably the age of 8 or 9. And a lot of it went over my head. But I did enjoy the speed of it. I liked the style of it. And even there's Also, enough physical humor in the movie that even if you're nine and you don't get all the quips, there's enough going on that you enjoy it.

[Adam Ilsbury]

It keeps moving. Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

And I know that I saw the movie first because I didn't see the Women when it revived on Broadway. I remember the advertisements for it. I was a Tri State area kid. So you opened up the Times. You saw the ads with all the women's names in it. Sex and the City was huge. So I totally knew who Cynthia Nixon. Jennifer Coolidge was Stifler's mom. So, like, she was big to me.

[Adam Ilsbury]

Rue McClanahan was Golden Girls in your zeitgeist at that point.

[Matt Koplik]

Not when I was 11. I don't think I got into Golden Girls till high school.

[Adam Ilsbury]

That makes sense.

[Matt Koplik]

Yes, but, like, that roundabout cast was stacked just in terms of, like, Kristen.

[Adam Ilsbury]

Johnston was huge at the time.

[Matt Koplik]

Yes. Because the third Rock from the Sun. So I knew her from that as well. But it was Cynthia Nixon, Kristin Johnston, Jennifer Tilly. I don't. Oh, I think this is how uncultured I was at 11. I only really knew Jennifer Tilly from her one role in Liar Liar. I didn't know her from bullets of her Bravo yet.

[Adam Ilsbury]

Oh, yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

Right in your bra.

[Adam Ilsbury]

But I so, like, it was me.

[Matt Koplik]

It was me. So Jennifer Tilly, Cynthia Nixon, Kristen Johnston. There's also Mary Louise Wilson, who I didn't know yet, but went on to win a Tony for Grey Gardens, obviously. And is Frau Schneider in the Natasha Richardson Cabaret. Heather Matazzaro.

[Adam Ilsbury]

Heather Matarazzo.

[Matt Koplik]

Matarazzo from welcome to the Dollhouse and Princess Diaries. Oh, yeah. I knew who she was at that point because Princess Diaries had come out.

[Adam Ilsbury]

And who did you just recently, as of like, a couple of days ago, discover was in the show when I told you who she was.

[Matt Koplik]

Well, first of all, her name's Halle Hallie Eisenberg, who at the time. And I still think of her as the Pepsi Girl.

[Adam Ilsbury]

Right.

[Matt Koplik]

From those Pepsi commercials. She played the little daughter, Mary Junior. And a few days ago, Adam mentioned that she is the sister of one Jesse Eisenberg. My head exploded and I said, I guess all the talent went to one sibling.

[Adam Ilsbury]

They really do look quite alike.

[Matt Koplik]

Okay, if you say so.

[Adam Ilsbury]

You don't see it.

[Matt Koplik]

I haven't Googled. Okay. We have discussed many times how much I detest child actors, which is hilarious because I tried to be one, and I'm glad I didn't that I wasn't one, because I would have looked back on that Time of my life. And I would have been so embarrassed. Yeah. Because I couldn't act as a kid. I sang beautifully. I will say that I've seen videos of me at like 9 and 10 and 11 singing. And like, Jesus Christ, put that kid in, like, the tabernacle choir.

[Adam Ilsbury]

Voice of an angel.

[Matt Koplik]

Voice of an angel. I was a cute little kid. There are photos of me at like 6 and 7 and. And actually, sorry, from like 3 to 7, we were looking through photos of me at my mom's place and I was like, mom, why wasn't I a child's model? Look at this face. I should be in every Gap ad in the Tri state area from 95 to 97. But I couldn't act worth a damn. And watching the women movie with I forget the girl's name, but the one who plays Norma Shearer's daughter, who goes on to be Dinah Lord in the following year in Philadelphia Story, she's great.

[Adam Ilsbury]

She's great.

[Matt Koplik]

She's phenomenal. Hallie in the Roundabout version that is on YouTube via PBS is not great and is pretty much doing everything. That is the reason why I don't like child actors. She's loud, she's emotionless. She's clearly just saying the lines that she's been told to memorize. She has no idea what she's saying or what the context is for anything. And the applause and laughter are so canned in this pbs, which is which. I didn't realize PBS did that. And maybe they don't usually do it, but it's very clear for this woman that it is.

[Adam Ilsbury]

There are some spots where it's definitely amped up.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah.

[Adam Ilsbury]

Which is too bad because there are some laughs that are really earned that don't come off as well as some other things because they push the laugh harder for things that aren't as funny 1000%.

[Matt Koplik]

Like Jennifer Coolidge's ash line, which gets a huge laugh. But there are moments that are purely dropped in that just sound so much louder. But I did watch that PBS version at some point. Never thought of it again until they did the remake in 2008. Yes.

[Adam Ilsbury]

Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

Chris, was that 2008, I believe. Yes. Thank you, Chris. We're in a different studio today. The women remake that was made by Diane English. That's right. Who did? That's Murphy Brown.

[Adam Ilsbury]

Yep. Which would explain why Candice Bergen was in it.

[Matt Koplik]

Yep. So I think she wrote and directed it starring Meg Ryan. Again, the women has always been a reason to just, like, stack your thing with talented females because there's so many roles. But it was Meg Ryan as Mary Haynes, the one who gets cheated on the Cynthia Nixon, Norma Shearer role. Eva Mendes is the Joan Crawford, Jennifer Tiller, Crystal Allen Chaprel role. Annette Bening is Sylvia, the backstabbing whore played by Rosalind Russell.

[Adam Ilsbury]

It's Mary's gigantic quotes best friend.

[Matt Koplik]

Yes. Even though she can't stand Mary and she basically does everything in her power to undermine everything that's going on in Mary's marriage, the moment she gets a nugget of information, she goes off and tells Hedda Hopper like that's who Sylvia is. And that's a nut bending in the remake. But in the remake they don't make her vindictive, they just make her a blabbermouth. And she learns that she needs to keep quiet and like be a better friend. In the end, it's all female power, which is nice since the original play is not that at all, but it's just also not as fun. And Bette Midler I think is the Countess and I believe Candice Bergen is Mary's mom. Yeah, Mary's mom, Jada Pinkett Smith plays their author friend who in the play and movie is definitely queer coded. Yes. She's a spinster virgin who's also like a not best selling author, but a fine selling author. And in the remake they make her a best selling lesbian.

[Adam Ilsbury]

She's not, she doesn't do books, she's just a lesbian. The best selling of the lesbians.

[Matt Koplik]

When you're Jada Pinkett Smith, you sell. Well, that's true. Yeah. No matter which gender you're selling yourself to. That's true. And then Debra Messing is the Jennifer Coolidge Edith part who's always popping babies. The joke they make in the remake is that there are no men until Debra Messing gives birth at the end. And it's the one boy in the entire movie is the one she gives birth to.

[Adam Ilsbury]

I wonder if that's why they changed in. Because in the play the baby that, that Edith has at the top of the second act is a boy. But they mention, they only mention the baby in the movie they don't show that scene because they never show her being pregnant or talk about her being pregnant. But they say that she's had a baby and it's a girl. And I wonder if they did it to keep the woman, the women female, trapped.

[Matt Koplik]

Well, I think so because in the.

[Adam Ilsbury]

They also cut the child, Mary's boy, out of the.

[Matt Koplik]

I was about to say.

[Adam Ilsbury]

I'm honest.

[Matt Koplik]

Jesus Christ.

[Adam Ilsbury]

Sorry.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah. No, in the play, Mary has two kids and we only see the one. Right. And this because the second one's a boy. And then in the movie it's just the daughter. But also that just helps me for fucking economy. Fewer children in your thing is already better.

[Adam Ilsbury]

Oh, we didn't mention this. So the women is all about women and only starring women. The men. There are no men that actually appear on stage. They're talked about constantly. Yes, but you never actually see them.

[Matt Koplik]

The men are the subject. The thing is, men are the subject of the women. Yeah. And the women are the only ones around.

[Adam Ilsbury]

It is not a Bechdel test play.

[Matt Koplik]

No. Well, I guess if you could say two women talking about another woman, maybe there's that.

[Adam Ilsbury]

But it's still about her relationship. Does that count?

[Matt Koplik]

No. I know, I know. Okay. It's a kissing cuddle.

[Adam Ilsbury]

I'm just questioning.

[Matt Koplik]

These are technicalities. What I'm saying is, if we're going off the technicality of two women with names on stage talking about something other than a man. Right. It's like, yes, they are talking about Mary Haynes and the tabloids, but it's because of what Mary Haynes is going on with her husband.

[Adam Ilsbury]

Yes.

[Matt Koplik]

So, yes, it's all Clara Boothe Luce, for those of you who only know her from Flying Over Sunset, AKA the musical where Carmen Cusack held the severed leg on the Vivienne Beaumont stage as she sang with her dead daughter and dead mother.

[Adam Ilsbury]

And she also orgasmed at the end of the title song.

[Matt Koplik]

She sure did. And I kind of did too.

[Adam Ilsbury]

It was great.

[Matt Koplik]

It was great. Tony Yazbeck had a whole song about being a penis rocket it. He did. That's true.

[Adam Ilsbury]

Oh my God. That show was a fever dream.

[Matt Koplik]

James Lapine has made a career out of throwing spaghetti at the wall. And truly.

[Adam Ilsbury]

Wait, did all the people come back from the dead at the end of that show too? He loves. I almost waited for you to talk about it in your Passion episode, but how, like at the end of most of his shows, it's just like everybody just sort of appears out of nowhere and like, offers a moral kinda.

[Matt Koplik]

Well, falsetto's usually just ends with Marvin. Right?

[Adam Ilsbury]

Yeah. I guess. I was thinking more about like the Sondheim collabs.

[Matt Koplik]

Sure.

[Adam Ilsbury]

Cause Sunday and Into the woods and Passion.

[Matt Koplik]

Even Spelling Bee. No one's back from the dead. But it ends with the whole cast on stage being like Bee.

[Adam Ilsbury]

Yes, exactly.

[Matt Koplik]

Isn't it? Yeah. I think Flying Over Sunset ends with the whole company. I can't remember. They might have come Back from the dead. But the audience didn't come back from being asleep. Am I right?

[Adam Ilsbury]

That's. I managed to stay awake. But, yeah, that was a. For a play that was a toughie.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah. For a play that had bonkers things in it and an amazing cast.

[Adam Ilsbury]

I was so bored for every bonkers thing that happened. I was alert for, like, the 15 seconds in which it happened. And then I would find myself very quickly drifting back.

[Matt Koplik]

The reason why I keep coming back to Carmen Cusack holding the severed leg of her dead mother is because it's, like, one of the few things I totally remember with clarity about that show.

[Adam Ilsbury]

Well, she dug it out of a. Out of a bush, like a flower.

[Matt Koplik]

Bush during her LSD trip.

[Adam Ilsbury]

And her. Yes. And her mother appears in, like, this portal that's, like, surrounded by palm fronds and is missing a leg. And Carmen Cusack hands the leg up.

[Matt Koplik]

To her because her mom died in a car crash.

[Adam Ilsbury]

In a car crash and lost her leg.

[Matt Koplik]

Yes. As did her daughter, who lost her head.

[Adam Ilsbury]

And then they bring the head on.

[Matt Koplik]

Oh, I don't remember that. I might have blocked that out. That was another show that had a kid in it. Oh, I blocked that out because it was young Tony.

[Adam Ilsbury]

Oh, right, the tap dancing kid.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah, young Tony Yazbek.

[Adam Ilsbury]

Not the tap dance kid, but a tap dancing kid.

[Matt Koplik]

Exactly. That's a deep cut for people. Yeah.

[Adam Ilsbury]

No hint in battle. In.

[Matt Koplik]

No, no hint on battle. Or what's his face? Wright. Samuel Wright. Yeah. Or who's the cousin on Fresh Prince?

[Adam Ilsbury]

Alfonso Ribeiro.

[Matt Koplik]

Yes. He's the original tap dance kid. But so there was Tony Asbeck as Cary Grant had a younger self. And so they tap dance together with the younger self in a dress because I guess his mom would put him in dresses. Yes.

[Adam Ilsbury]

She would dress him up as a girl.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah. Fun times. But. So this all ties back to George Cukor because Cary Grant had been in many George Cukor movies. And George Cukor directed the movie version of the Women written by Clare Boothe Luce who was a main character of Flying Over Sunset. Now, again, you may think of her from this play and as Carmen Cusack. First things first. Claire Bouffous was not Southern. That's just because Carmen Cusack has makes every role now Georgian.

[Adam Ilsbury]

She just got stuck in that. In that bright, bright star drawl.

[Matt Koplik]

Well, I think she's from Texas. Right?

[Adam Ilsbury]

That sounds right.

[Matt Koplik]

I think she's from Texas and then spent 15 years in London. So she's just always.

[Adam Ilsbury]

Oh, so she's just gone lilty.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah, yeah. She's just always Rue McClanahan in Golden.

[Adam Ilsbury]

Girls, which, I mean, she always. She just always sounds incredible. I love her.

[Matt Koplik]

So it's my. I'm Southern. Being flirtatious is part of my heritage. What does that mean? Her mother was a slut too. So she's.

[Adam Ilsbury]

Oh, so she's actually kind of just turned into Cola Scola as Mary Todd Lincoln.

[Matt Koplik]

Kinda. Yeah. But. So Claire Booth Lewis is not anything in Flying Over Sunset other than the dead mom and dead daughter. Correct. And the lsd.

[Adam Ilsbury]

And the lsd.

[Matt Koplik]

But what they don't talk about in Flying Over Sunset is how conservative she was for a woman who built herself up from almost nothing and accomplished so much. It wasn't just like, this is definitely her probably most well known work. She'd written a couple of other plays that were like minor successes. This was the only big hit she had. She'd written some short stories and novels that all kind of went in and out. But she wrote a lot of opinion pieces and worked, I think at maybe Vanity Fair, like Harper's Bazaar or something, things like that.

[Adam Ilsbury]

Some editorial.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah, a lot of editorial. Was she a senator or a congresswoman?

[Adam Ilsbury]

She was, she was part. Yeah, she was. She was in politics, but I can't remember what she.

[Matt Koplik]

What she did. I know she was also an ambassador at one point and just like, also like very sexually free. She was married to, I think his name is Henry Luce. That was her second husband, but they had an open marriage. And I was reading on her Wikipedia page all the lovers that she had, including Roald Dahl, who I guess, when she was an ambassador, he, I guess was doing a lot of foreign correspondence on behalf of England because he was a semi well known figure and. And when they were sort of intertwined and his job was to keep her entertained, which meant her great and. But he, he, apparently he tried after a while to pawn the job off to somebody else because she was too exhausting. I love the idea that Claire Boothluz at this point, she was probably like in her 60s, early 60s, and like Roald Dahl was in his mid-50s and he's like, this woman won't stop writing me.

[Adam Ilsbury]

He's like, she wore out my everlasting gobstopper.

[Matt Koplik]

She Oompa'd my Loompa.

[Adam Ilsbury]

Oh my God.

[Matt Koplik]

Oh God.

[Adam Ilsbury]

She b'd my fg. I don't know what that say.

[Matt Koplik]

Her bfng. Know what I mean? The Fantastic mistress.

[Adam Ilsbury]

She crunched my ball.

[Matt Koplik]

Shut the fuck up.

[Adam Ilsbury]

You know what really trenches my bull.

[Matt Koplik]

The fantastic Mr. Silver Fox. Roaldahl yeah. You know what really trunches my ball? I love that Clara Booth Luce just riding British authors to death.

[Adam Ilsbury]

But everybody needs a hobby.

[Matt Koplik]

Everyone's got to be good at something.

[Adam Ilsbury]

Everybody's got to be somewhere.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah. And I guess if you're afraid of horses, you have to ride something else. But so. So with all of this in mind, everything that she's accomplished as a woman, especially for the time period that she did, as well as being like, I may be married and it may not be great to be so sexually liberated, but fuck it, I want dick for all of that. She was very much like, women just really want to get married and have babies. And I think that's what they should be doing.

[Adam Ilsbury]

Which kind of makes the whole plot of the women a little wild that all of them are so sternly domesticated.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah, well, it makes the women actually make more sense in terms of what she was going for because.

[Adam Ilsbury]

Right. You have no conflict if they're not tied to their men.

[Matt Koplik]

Exactly. And the women would be a much more interesting play if all of the different perspectives led to somewhere. But the voices of reason are the ones that are like, stick by your man, ride this out. It'll all be okay. Because a woman's nothing if she ain't a wife. And it's craziness, because that's like the message inside of the most bitchy gift box ever. So we'll get to all this. But it's sort of how that play kind of just gaslights you into thinking it's more feminist than it actually is. Speaking of Cynthia Nixon and all those women in that interview, which we'll also talk about. But, but yeah, just if you look up Claire Boothluz accomplished. Up the fucking butt. But. And I'm sure she tried stuff up the butt because again, she was liberated. But her, her ideology is so fucking conservative to the point that, like, she. There's a, an organization like a, or a building or like, school that she founded. Like, Anne Coulter speaks that, like, regularly. Because it's like, I know it's specifically for conservative women and let's be real, probably white conservative women, because, yeah, she wasn't an open minded person. But it is fascinating that this play that has, and this piece in general that has lived on in the queer community and female community all stems from this person who's like, yeah, I did a lot, but I really should have had more babies.

[Adam Ilsbury]

But she hadn't even. I mean, she had done quite a bit at that point, but I mean, this was 30 years. 36 when the play came out. And all of these, you know, some of the things you mentioned didn't happen until further after that.

[Matt Koplik]

It's true. Well, there's also the question of whether she felt this way when she wrote the women or if it's like it all kind of locked in. And when she quote unquote, found religion.

[Adam Ilsbury]

After her daughter died, that could do it.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah, because that's the other thing. Apparently she became a born again Christian or something like that after her daughter died and experimented with LSD during the 50s. That just what the whole flying over sunset thing is, didn't stop her again from riding Roald Dahl into a coma in 1960s. You know what I mean?

[Adam Ilsbury]

That's right.

[Matt Koplik]

Listen, there are worse ways to go into a coma. I would rather not be sex with a woman, but I would like it to be sex.

[Adam Ilsbury]

Yeah, but maybe not with Roald Dahl.

[Matt Koplik]

What did he look like in 1964?

[Adam Ilsbury]

Just like a younger version of what he looked like when he was older. I don't know. Yeah. Yes, he looked exactly like an anti Semite. You know, I don't know. He. I can't say that I've ever looked at Roald Dahl and been like, I would rolled that doll, but I just.

[Matt Koplik]

Eat my chocolate factory, daddy.

[Adam Ilsbury]

Oh my God.

[Matt Koplik]

And on that note, let's take a break. Billy, I'd beg to differ with you. How do you mean? You're the top. Yeah. You're an arrow collar. You're the top. You're a Coolidge dollar, You're. And we're back. Okay, so the women. Let's go through this like character by character because like the Discord Channel did.

[Adam Ilsbury]

Because there's a lot of characters, a.

[Matt Koplik]

Lot of characters, and the Discord Channel didn't really give us much. There was one question that I would like to talk about later, which was about drag queens.

[Adam Ilsbury]

Now that I know about.

[Matt Koplik]

Oh, drag queen.

[Adam Ilsbury]

I just know the subject. Yes, sure, sure, sure, sure.

[Matt Koplik]

Yes, I've watched Chu Wong Fu. I've read about the Birdcage. Uh huh. No, everyone knows that. I can quote. It's a lie. I know I can quote that movie from start to finish.

[Adam Ilsbury]

You just watched it again like two weeks ago, didn't you?

[Matt Koplik]

No, I just shared a quote from it.

[Adam Ilsbury]

Oh, okay.

[Matt Koplik]

Somebody has to like me best.

[Adam Ilsbury]

Just popped into my head and I.

[Matt Koplik]

Kept thinking, okay, I'm sorry. I want Elaine May to do a rewrite of the Women. I want her to look through this play and I want her to scrub it up and make it Even funnier and have more of a dramatic purpose. Just saying.

[Adam Ilsbury]

I'm down with that. I mean, I hope. I don't know if Elaine May. I want to say that I hope Elaine May still has enough life in her to make that happen, but I don't know if she does.

[Matt Koplik]

She has more life in her than I do. But that's true.

[Adam Ilsbury]

And she's 90 something, right?

[Matt Koplik]

She sure is. Good for her. It's because she avoids the sun and people. That's what's going to keep her alive forever.

[Adam Ilsbury]

Same. That's not true.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah, if you guys. If you want to live forever, avoid the sun. And people like Elaine May und Dracula. Nosferatu. Who's a character we want to talk about first?

[Adam Ilsbury]

I don't. Let's just. Let's just go down the roster. Let's start with Mary.

[Matt Koplik]

Okay. Mary Haynes. So Mary Haynes, as far as we know, she's like, what, 35?

[Adam Ilsbury]

She's in her mid-30s.

[Matt Koplik]

Mid-30s, yes. She's been married for 12 years to her husband Steven. They have in the play two kids. Little Mary, who's like, about nine, I guess.

[Adam Ilsbury]

I think so.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah. Eight or nine. Because the play also takes. The play and the movie both take place over the course of like, two and a half years.

[Adam Ilsbury]

Right. Midway through act two, we jump forward two years.

[Matt Koplik]

Yes. Act one takes place over the course of like, six to eight months. And then act two, we jump forward to two years. Yeah, because actually, act two, I realized.

[Adam Ilsbury]

Oh, right. Because there's two months when they go to bermuda in Act 1.

[Matt Koplik]

Yes. Sorry. No, actually, no, I take that back. I take that back. Sorry. Act one, it's about eight to nine months. Act two begins, and it's like about a month or two later, and then they're in Reno. And then after the second scene, that's when we jump ahead two years. Because the last three scenes all take place in one night.

[Adam Ilsbury]

So it's like three years.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah, let's say three years.

[Adam Ilsbury]

Let's stick with that.

[Matt Koplik]

Mary is probably the richest of all of her friends. It's unclear, but it's implied that she has the most money and that the money comes from her family. That she's. She's very well off. And she married a man who was.

[Adam Ilsbury]

Who didn't have anything.

[Matt Koplik]

Who didn't have anything. Yeah, but because I guess of her connections and his abilities. He's a lawyer, I guess.

[Adam Ilsbury]

I think that's right.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah. I think he's a lawyer. But he. It's. It's implied that he became A very successful lawyer. So in addition to her family money, he then started making a lot of money. So combined, they are incredibly rich.

[Adam Ilsbury]

Yeah, because she. Because she defends him at one point when her mother is trying to, like, talk her down on him, and she's like, no, he got there by. On his own.

[Matt Koplik]

Well, yeah, her mother is like, he wouldn't have been. He wouldn't have gotten where he was if it wasn't for you. And she's like, no, he would have gotten there. It's fine. And then also his assistant shows up with the contracts, and, like, she thinks that he actually would have been more successful before and for marrying the kids.

[Adam Ilsbury]

His assistant, who's also hot for him.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah, everyone's hot for Steven. Well, apparently he's like the one cute husband. Mmm. Yeah. With a little thinning on top, but, you know.

[Adam Ilsbury]

Sure.

[Matt Koplik]

That's life, baby.

[Adam Ilsbury]

Jude Law, baby.

[Matt Koplik]

Well, not anymore. Now he's got a rug sewn in there.

[Adam Ilsbury]

Oh, did he get a rug?

[Matt Koplik]

He looks it.

[Adam Ilsbury]

Oh, I haven't seen him recently, I guess.

[Matt Koplik]

Somebody look up Jude Law. Present day. I'm pretty sure there's a rug sewn into his scalp. I think it's. It doesn't. It's not a brillapad. It looks quite nice.

[Adam Ilsbury]

Well, anyway, before he had. Before he had a rugson, that. That thinning would have done just fine.

[Matt Koplik]

Yes, but. So the point is, Mary, she's the wealthiest of them and she seems the most secure. She's not. She has no ulterior motives, Mary.

[Adam Ilsbury]

No.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah. And there's. And we're gonna keep doing this. We're gonna talk about the movie version and the play version back and forth. Because the movie is what most people know. And in so many ways, the movie doesn't prove things. But also the movie doesn't have, like, necessarily a satirical point to be made. It's just trying to be a good time.

[Adam Ilsbury]

Oh, look, it's Jude Law.

[Matt Koplik]

Oh, look, we're looking at Jude Law photos right now. Yeah, see, that's my hair.

[Adam Ilsbury]

No, that is not.

[Matt Koplik]

It's not a rug. I think he got plants, but it's far more hair than he used to have.

[Adam Ilsbury]

Maybe hair transplant.

[Matt Koplik]

Hair transplant.

[Adam Ilsbury]

Thank you.

[Matt Koplik]

There it is.

[Adam Ilsbury]

Ding dong, ding my dong, baby.

[Matt Koplik]

You can ding my dong, ding my dong, Judah. But so I will always find that man hot. Yeah. Talented Mr. Ripley, baby. That's just. That's.

[Adam Ilsbury]

That's my go to for him.

[Matt Koplik]

Oh, yeah. Jude Law in a bathtub for a movie with no peen or any male on male Sex.

[Adam Ilsbury]

You can kind of see peen in.

[Matt Koplik]

The bathtub, kind of.

[Adam Ilsbury]

But you do get two butts.

[Matt Koplik]

You get. You do get two butts, and you get a lot of homoeroticism. You could definitely pleasure yourself to that movie. Even though there's not. It's not, technically speaking, gay porn. Same thing with Challengers. But there's actual peen in challengers.

[Adam Ilsbury]

I still haven't seen challengers.

[Matt Koplik]

Well, okay, so speaking of speaking of.

[Adam Ilsbury]

Hating women, somebody was watching Challengers on a flight that I was on not too long ago, and I didn't keep looking. I was watching something on the monitor that I had in front of me. But I looked up a couple times and I was like, I don't know if I would watch this on an airplane.

[Matt Koplik]

No. Was it a man or woman?

[Adam Ilsbury]

It was a man.

[Matt Koplik]

Could you tell if they were erect?

[Adam Ilsbury]

You know, I didn't ask. I should have just, like, craned my neck over the seat to just.

[Matt Koplik]

Just.

[Adam Ilsbury]

I don't know.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah, that's what I do. Yeah. Is that not how you.

[Adam Ilsbury]

Or do you just, like, reach between the seats and poke?

[Matt Koplik]

No, I. No, I respect people's boundaries. It's good. I look. I look from afar, and if I can't tell, I shout. If they're erect or not, you got a bower. You got yourself a little chirp. Because if they were erect, most likely they were a gay man. If they weren't erect, they were probably a straight man. Every time a straight friend of mine watches Challengers and tells me they saw it, I say to them, I don't know what you get out of it, but. But I'll tell you. I'll tell you what. The gays get out of it. But so how do we even get here?

[Adam Ilsbury]

I mean, everyone was just looking for an excuse to watch Mike Feist make out with a guy.

[Matt Koplik]

Mike Feist isn't even the hottest one in that movie. Joshua Connor is the hottest one in that movie.

[Adam Ilsbury]

Yes.

[Matt Koplik]

When he pulls that stool with his foot closer to him as they're eating the churros. That is hotter than any Sean Cody bullshit you could imagine.

[Adam Ilsbury]

Oh, man.

[Matt Koplik]

Sometimes it's about what you don't see.

[Adam Ilsbury]

We have to move on and you don't.

[Matt Koplik]

I can't keep thinking about this. Speaking of what? Speaking of what? You don't see men and the women. We never see Stephen Haynes.

[Adam Ilsbury]

Never see Stephen Taines. Nope.

[Matt Koplik]

No. But supposedly they are very content. They're very happy. But what we learn about Mary. So there's Mary of the movie Mary of the stage show. Mary of the movie is Norma Shearer. And she's not, like, she's not angelic. It's more that she's just sort of. She's warm.

[Adam Ilsbury]

Yeah, she's just a warm presence.

[Matt Koplik]

And she has no ulterior motives. Like, she just. Actually, I'll put it this way. This is. This isn't even negative, but I was in correspondence with somebody in. Regarding to my play who's in the industry.

[Adam Ilsbury]

And, like, you were to play. Yes, I know, I know.

[Matt Koplik]

Listen, I can make jokes about you, too, but I'm not gonna. You.

[Adam Ilsbury]

You. I. It's open. Doors open.

[Matt Koplik]

Hi. Hi.

[Adam Ilsbury]

We're holding hands now. Wait, are we doing that? Hold on. I'm Ariana Grande. I'm holding your pointer finger. Okay, go ahead.

[Matt Koplik]

Thank you so much. No, I only say this because it was a person who reached out to me about it who, like, is in the industry and works on this stuff, and they said, I would love to, like, meet up. And this was right before Thanksgiving, and I was seeing theater pretty much every day until Thanksgiving. And then it was.

[Adam Ilsbury]

I remember that. Yep.

[Matt Koplik]

And I responded with, like, absolutely. Would love to. I've sort of got a very busy week. And then it's the holidays. Like, could we meet after the holidays? And it was reported to me that this person was very taken aback by my response. They're like, what. What is he getting at here? He's. Most people would. Would just say he has a life. Well, like, he. Most people would just say, tomorrow. Is he, Like, I kind of take offense to this. And then I reached out again, and they didn't respond. And I said to our, like, liaison. I was like, that's just. It was just the truth. Like, it was. The truth was that I couldn't. I could not give more than five minutes of my time until this day. And I wanted to give more than five minutes of my time to this person. And, like, Mary is somebody who would be like, I can't meet you until after Thanksgiving. So, like, let's do a day after Thanksgiving. And people in her circle would be like, what kind of power move is that? Yeah, what is she doing? What's she getting at? And Mary's like, no, like, just genuinely, I have plans for the next five days. Can I see you on the sixth day? And someone like Sylvia Fowler, her best friend, will be like, well, I have plans till the 9th day. How about the 10th day? And then Mary, at face value, would just be like, okay, 10th day.

[Adam Ilsbury]

Yeah, Sylvia's definitely a 1 upper 1,000%.

[Matt Koplik]

Sylvia is someone who would tell you she wrote a play.

[Adam Ilsbury]

She sure would.

[Matt Koplik]

She wrote five plays.

[Adam Ilsbury]

Did you know?

[Matt Koplik]

And they're all going to Broadway.

[Adam Ilsbury]

Did you know she wrote a play?

[Matt Koplik]

She wrote a play. But so. So Mary in the. That's Mary in the movie. Mary of the stage play is more of, like, a wet blanket. She's kind and she's fine.

[Adam Ilsbury]

She's a doormat.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah, very much so. And is, like, just getting tossed around like a rag doll by everybody because she thinks that everything is fine. She takes everything at face value. Everyone knows about her husband's affair behind her back. And ultimately, Sylvia pulls a game of chess on her. Because the way Sylvia found out about her about Mary's husband's affair is through a manicurist. Yes. Cause the manicurist knows the mistress, Crystal Allen. And Sylvia's like, well, I can't be the one to tell Mary. I don't want blood on my hands. So I'm gonna send her to my manicurist.

[Adam Ilsbury]

She wants Jungle Red on her hands.

[Matt Koplik]

She sure do. Jungle Red. That's the nail polish. She sends Mary to the manicurist in what is a pretty great scene of basically just a monologue for the manicurist. Like, if you're a bitstress. That is the golden roll.

[Adam Ilsbury]

Yeah, it would be. It would be. Even if you were. Yeah. If you were playing, like, maybe two smaller roles in this show. Because it. There are how many characters in the show?

[Matt Koplik]

40, they say. 40. Yeah.

[Adam Ilsbury]

So they do a lot of doubling with the smaller roles. But if you had that scene and, like, one other one, it would. You could. You could be the standout of the show. If you were really good, you could be.

[Matt Koplik]

I mean, the actress who does it in the movie is a standout.

[Adam Ilsbury]

Yeah, she's great.

[Matt Koplik]

She has those eyes that look up and down a man, like a searchlight. So. Please. But, like, just everything kind of happens to Mary in the stage show, and the only real decision she makes is to divorce her husband. And then she kind of just lays low until the very end. Oh, right.

[Adam Ilsbury]

Because even in the film, she's the one that decides to go to Bermuda. Her mother isn't like, well, no, her mother. I'm taking you to Bermuda.

[Matt Koplik]

Well, so in the stage show, she and her husband. Sorry, in the movie, I could be wrong. In the movie, there's this whole thing about how Mary and her husband had their honeymoon in Canada and they were gonna go again.

[Adam Ilsbury]

Do you think that's a reference to Norma Shearer being Canadian.

[Matt Koplik]

Was she Canadian?

[Adam Ilsbury]

She was Canadian.

[Matt Koplik]

I had no idea.

[Adam Ilsbury]

Wikipedia.

[Matt Koplik]

She's a girl's best friend. Fuck diamonds. But. So that would hurt. But you can make more diamonds. That's true. But in the movie, they have this whole thing about, oh, Steven and I had our honeymoon in Canada and we're gonna go again. But then he cancels cause of Crystal, and she finds out about the affair with Crystal, and I think the mom takes the Canada trip and turns it into a Bermuda trip.

[Adam Ilsbury]

Oh, you're right. You're right. You're right. You're right. I think so. That sounds right.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah. Because it.

[Adam Ilsbury]

But she gets on the phone with Steven and says, mom and I are going to Bermuda, which I do. Which she does not do.

[Matt Koplik]

In the stage show, there is more interaction. There are more interactions with Steven in the movie than there are in the stage show. Not only just with Mary, but with Crystal. Yeah, there are.

[Adam Ilsbury]

Oh, yeah, there's some great phone calls.

[Matt Koplik]

There are three scenes that the movie adds that are so perfect and so iconic, and the stage show would be better off having them. One is when Sylvia and their other friend Edith go to Saks Blacks to scope out Crystal.

[Adam Ilsbury]

Yes. That is to swoop in.

[Matt Koplik]

To swoop in to spy on her and basically be like, we all know without saying it.

[Adam Ilsbury]

It's a great scene.

[Matt Koplik]

And the scene that precedes that is Crystal on the phone with Steven, manipulating him to cancel on his wife and be with her.

[Adam Ilsbury]

Cameo by butterfly, McQueen.

[Matt Koplik]

Absolutely. And that is a great scene. Cause it also shows you that Steven sort of has one foot in both sides of the door. Right. Like, he is definitely spending a lot of time with Crystal, but he's also trying to be with his wife, Mary. And it's more like anytime that he tries to, that's when Crystal gets him out of it. And the movie kind of keeps showing how much Steven tries to appeal to Mary and how miserable he is in the second half with Crystal. Whereas in the play, he kind of is all in on Crystal, as far as we know, in the first act. And in the second act, he's less happy, but he's not miserable. It seems like he's just kind of being dominated by her in their marriage in the second half. But, yeah, in the movie, Mary definitely has that phone call that's not in the stage of like, I'm going to Bermuda. I'm doing this. I'll see you later. And she's doing everything that she thinks she should be doing. And she keeps talking about her pride and, well, I have My pride. Shouldn't I leave Stephen because I have my pride? And everyone's like, no, you have children. You have a husband. You have a beautiful two story penthouse apartment in Manhattan. You stay. Even Crystal's like. She's like, yeah, I'm his mistress. Like, I'm not gonna upset the status quo. Like, I'm happy being a kept woman. You should be happy with everything you got. I love the way that Joan. That Joan Crawford asks her in the. In the standoff, in the dressing room scene. She's like, what do you got to kick about? She's genuinely curious. She's trying to not befriend her, but level with her.

[Adam Ilsbury]

She's like, after all this time, what are you hanging on to, girl?

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah. She's like, what do you expect? Yeah. Oh, yeah. We're jumping all ahead. We are.

[Adam Ilsbury]

It's okay.

[Matt Koplik]

There's a confrontation scene between Mary and Crystal. It's the straw that breaks the camel's back that leads to everything else tumbling. Because when Mary comes back for Bermuda, she thinks that all is good in the hood until she realizes, no, Steven is still with Crystal. And not only that, is renting her an apartment and is buying all of her stuff. Crystal is opening accounts all over Manhattan with Steven as her business reference, meaning Steven is footing all the bills. And when her friends say, crystal's in the next dressing room, you should probably go. And then it ends up being a terrible decision because Mary thinks she's going to go in and. And appeal to Crystal's humanity and be like, you're breaking up a marriage and you should look at my face.

[Adam Ilsbury]

Except that she's not prepared for the fact that Crystal's just a raging bitch.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah, well, Crystal knows absolutely what she's doing, and she has no qualms about it. And Claire Bethel has always said that of all the women in that play, she sympathized with Crystal the most, which I don't believe. I do not believe for a second.

[Adam Ilsbury]

Based on what?

[Matt Koplik]

Cause Crystal in the play is actually even worse than Crystal in the movie.

[Adam Ilsbury]

Yes, she is.

[Matt Koplik]

She.

[Adam Ilsbury]

She's mean.

[Matt Koplik]

She's mean. And maybe it's just how Jennifer Tilly says the lines, but, like. Cause she's. She's braying.

[Adam Ilsbury]

I read the play before, like, going through it quickly with the Roundabout version. And she's far meaner in the play.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah, no, she. No, she is far meaner. Oh, no.

[Adam Ilsbury]

But I should say she reads just as mean in the play on the page as she does if you're experiencing the genera fertility like, combo Olive Neil version of Crystal Allen.

[Matt Koplik]

Well, so in both versions, when they're talking, Crystal says to her, like, I know that I can't replace you as the new Mrs. Haynes. She goes, don't get me wrong. Your husband's obsessed with me. She's like, but he's a moral dude, and he's not gonna leave you for me. Which ends up being the seed planted in Mary's brain. Because when Mary. Mary eventually then has a confrontation with Steven offstage, and she's the one that. That does the divorce because she now has it in her head like, steven wants to leave me, but he just won't do it. So I'm like, I have my pride. I'll leave him. But what Krystal says to her is like, you. And it's. Again, Joan Crawford says to her, she's like, what do you got a kick about? You have the status, you have the money, you have the apartment.

[Adam Ilsbury]

Like, why are you just living the luxury girl?

[Matt Koplik]

Why are you so butthurt? And Norma Shearer, in all of her regality, she's like, the love of my husband means more to me than all of that. And Joan Crawford's just like, yeah, well, that's your problem. Well, well. And there are two lines that the movie has that are not in the show, and they're pretty iconic. They're quoted all the time. In the play, Mary says, steven doesn't love you. And Crystal says he's doing the best that he can under the circumstances. In the movie, she says, steven doesn't love you. And Crystal says, well, if he doesn't, he's a very good actor. And then I know this. Mary has this line in the play, which is, by the way, I should say, if you're trying. If you're dressing to please Steven, not that he doesn't go for obvious affair. And Crystal doesn't have this line in the play. She has it in the movie. It's a great line written by Anita Luce. All the best lines in the movie that are not in the play are written by Anita Luce, who wrote Jennifer Blondes. Yep. And she says, thanks for the tip, but if anything, I wear doesn't please, Stephen. I take it off. It is.

[Adam Ilsbury]

I'm an icdeasy ass.

[Matt Koplik]

This is 1939. They got that past the censors.

[Adam Ilsbury]

It's amazing.

[Matt Koplik]

It's amazing. And. And, like, the lines where Sylvia and Edith spy on Crystal, and they're like, oh, we're looking for a perfume. And, like, you know, I'm sure mentioned Come here all the time asking your opinion. She goes, oh, the men who come here asking for my opinion on perfume, like you tend to be with women already. And Rosslyn Russell goes, I never thought that would bother you.

[Adam Ilsbury]

Well, so that's okay. So that sort of covers Mary and Crystal, right?

[Matt Koplik]

A little bit. We haven't really. We're getting into Crystal now. The point of Mary is that, like, her arc is basically, she's oblivious. Then she's in a wet blanket, and then she comes back divorced from Rena two years later, and decides, no, I messed everything up. I'm gonna get my husband back. And that's her arc, essentially. Yeah. And the movie, it's more that she kind of just gets wiser and tougher.

[Adam Ilsbury]

Yes. She gains a backbone. Yes.

[Matt Koplik]

She always wanted to be with her husband. She never wanted to divorce him. She always loved him. And she let the influences of others affect her. And I think having pride is a good thing. I hate her final line. Pride is something of luxury a woman in love can't afford. But take that line out, and you have a woman who has come back to her husband a stronger person, and they can sort of begin again. But in the play, it's just sort of like, I love my husband. I'm devastated by my husband. I'm back with my husband and a play. Crystal is basically just like, riding the social ladder higher and higher and higher. And. And how does she really end in the play?

[Adam Ilsbury]

Well, so in the play, as in the film, after two years with Steven, Crystal has grown bored and is now seeing. Is he supposed to be meant to. Is he meant to be like a cowboy style actor?

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah, it's Buck Winston.

[Adam Ilsbury]

Buck Winston.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah. We'll get to the Buck Winston of it all when we get to the Countess and read it.

[Adam Ilsbury]

But she. But she starts a relationship with Buck Winston, and Mary finds out about that through little Mary.

[Matt Koplik]

Yes.

[Adam Ilsbury]

So I don't know. It's a little more vague, but ultimately, in the last scene, it's revealed to the Countess that the whole Buck thing is happening with Crystal. But I don't know. I think that Mary getting her shit back together just kind of sends Sylvia and Crystal into a tizzy and they just start fighting. Yeah, that's. That's kind of it.

[Matt Koplik]

It is.

[Adam Ilsbury]

It's a little thin.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah, it's all kind of vague and convoluted because Crystal. Yeah, she's cheating on Steven with Buck, who's an actor, a popular actor. And in the play, it. They don't have really any dirt on Crystal. It's all just about confessions. She manipulates into confessions. And even then, like, there's no real fallout about it because Buck is married to the Countess, who's very, very wealthy. And we find out that the Countess owns the horse that Buck is famous for being with in movies. And thus he can't make pictures at MGM without the horse.

[Adam Ilsbury]

So if he leaves her, then he. Then he loses his career is ultimately the point.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah. Which I'm also like. But in real life, MGM would just be like, get another horse.

[Adam Ilsbury]

Or MGM would be like, we'll buy the horse.

[Matt Koplik]

We'll buy the horse. Who fucking cares? In the movie, it's that he's a radio actor. And the whole thing with radio actors is your show is only as popular through listenership and you only make money off of your sponsors. And the main sponsor is this big conglomerate, as it turns out, personally owned by the Countess because no one would put Buck on the radio. So she bought out a sponsor to sponsor his show. So without her, he has nothing. Exactly. Which is much clearer. That is a clear thing. That is a stake.

[Adam Ilsbury]

Which leads to another great line in the film, which is not in the play.

[Matt Koplik]

Yes. When Crystal. Crystal in the movie is gonna leave Steven for Buck. And ultimately all the things that Mary does to, like, get a confession out of Sylvia. So that way Crystal can sort of be blackmailed and all this other stuff. Crystal, in the end, is sort of like, I don't care. I don't need it. I don't need alimony. I don't need Steven to give me anything. Buck is rich. He's making so much money on the radio, we're going off to California and fuck you all. And then we find out, actually his payday is going to end, like, the moment you two get together. Which means that basically, Crystal has two options because she's now admitted that she is cheating on Steven and leaving him. So she can't get alimony from him now. And he doesn't want to have anything to do with her. So she's done with Steven. And Buck either could run off with Crystal and have no money, or he could stay with the Countess and still have a career. Clear. Unclear. Either way, Crystal's having no money. And so she says, it's back to the perfume counter for me. And she says, you're gonna have.

[Adam Ilsbury]

You're gonna quote it better than I can.

[Matt Koplik]

Okay, great. I was trying to.

[Adam Ilsbury]

I'm gonna let you do it.

[Matt Koplik]

I was trying to give you.

[Adam Ilsbury]

I appreciate it, but I'm gonna paraphrase and it's not gonna be as good as.

[Matt Koplik]

Joan Crawford exits the powder room, she says, by the way, there's a name for you ladies, but it's not used in high society outside of a kennel. Meaning she's calling them all beaches. Beaches. Because they couldn't say bitches. They called each other beezle in the movie because that's the only way they could get away with that.

[Adam Ilsbury]

They do say bitch in the play.

[Matt Koplik]

Yes, they do.

[Adam Ilsbury]

At a different point.

[Matt Koplik]

I think they say bitch a couple of times.

[Adam Ilsbury]

Yes, yes.

[Matt Koplik]

And they even make references to cesarean scars, which they don't do in the movie.

[Adam Ilsbury]

The play itself has a lot. Not vulgar, but just a lot more stuff that you couldn't say because of the code in the 30s in film.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah. Which just makes the dialogue more clever in the movie because you have to work your way around it because you.

[Adam Ilsbury]

Can'T talk about pregnancy or morning sickness or any of.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah.

[Adam Ilsbury]

Anything pregnancy related, basically.

[Matt Koplik]

And any immorality a character does has to be punished. It's why Elizabeth Taylor's character dies off a cliff in butterfield 8 and shit like that. We talked about this in the Streetcar episode because Streetcar Named Desire's movie had to jump through so many hoops in order to make it to the screen, and they had to fight tooth and nail for so many plot points to stay. And so the whole thing about Blanche having a promiscuous past and all these things, they're like, look at the third act of the movie. Doesn't she pay for that? Like, come on, That's. That's Hayes code.

[Adam Ilsbury]

Oh. One of my favorite things, though, that they. Their friend Edith, throughout Act 1, is pregnant, but in the film she is not.

[Matt Koplik]

Or.

[Adam Ilsbury]

Well, it's. It's kind of hinted at, but they never actually say that she is, but she. She still says this line in the.

[Matt Koplik]

The film.

[Adam Ilsbury]

She talks about. They're eating lunch, and she talks about needing to unswallow her lunch because she's sick to her stomach. And I'm like, that is the best version of I need to go throw up that I've ever heard in my life. To go unswallow my lunch is great.

[Matt Koplik]

It is, I would say. Yeah. The main, like, culprits of this group, it's Mary, Sylvia, Edith and Peggy. Nancy. There's not much to say about Nancy.

[Adam Ilsbury]

Nancy's kind of an. Like, ultimately, she's kind of a pointless character. She really isn't even in the movie.

[Matt Koplik]

She's not really in the play because she's there for the first scene, because then she goes off to Africa for a book tour.

[Adam Ilsbury]

Something like that.

[Matt Koplik]

Something like that. And then comes back at the very end when we jump ahead two years. The whole point of Nancy's existence is that she's the only one who's not married and she doesn't really desire to be. And also, she's meant to sort of foreshadow that Sylvia's bad news because she's the only friend who doesn't like Sylvia. And she keeps telling Mary that Sylvia sucks. And Mary's like, no, she's actually a pretty good friend. And of course, like, Sylvia is the one who gets cut out of the friendship group two years later and lobs onto Crystal because Sylvia also has her own stuff. And I think we can do that after the next break. But so while we do that, let's just mention Peggy and Edith and get them out of the way, because Edith is more interesting of a character, Peggy's more important to the plot, but Peggy's dull.

[Adam Ilsbury]

Peggy is a bit of a wet blanket of a character. She's. Every scene she's in, she's just sort of mopey and sad because her and her husband don't have as much money as everybody else does. So there's a lot they can't afford to do.

[Matt Koplik]

Well, that's the thing. Is that what we. It's. It's what's hinting at? Well, it's.

[Adam Ilsbury]

She has money, but he's in control of everything.

[Matt Koplik]

Yes. He won't take her money. Right. And so, like, she's got, like, they're sitting on this pile of cash that she has from her family, but she.

[Adam Ilsbury]

Wants to have a baby and he won't have one because he doesn't want to have her paying for the expenses.

[Matt Koplik]

Yes.

[Adam Ilsbury]

Yeah. It's a.

[Matt Koplik]

That's a whole. It's a whole thing. Yeah. And it's John Fontaine in the movie who's, like, does the assignment for the most part. But she has, like, that one phone call with the husband in Reno because it leads to, as Mary's getting divorced and has to go to Reno to do the divorce. Because was that the, like, law at the time was that if a woman's filing for divorce, she has to do it in Reno? I think that's correct because men could file for divorce anywhere, but women could only do it? I think that's correct because that's another thing, is that women filing for divorce was a relatively new phenomenon, and it's something that Mary's mom talks about. She's like, I hate these modern laws. Back in the day when women couldn't file for divorces, they stuck around and, like, they made the best of it.

[Adam Ilsbury]

Well, one point, Mary. Mary has a line about her. She and her and Steven being equals. And I'm like, are you not then.

[Matt Koplik]

But in 1936, she kind of thought they were like. That's the thing is it does sort of.

[Adam Ilsbury]

It does show you how far we've come in certain aspects.

[Matt Koplik]

In certain aspects, yeah. But it also sort of shows you how at every point of our lives, we feel like we can't progress any further. Whether it's politically, society wise, or, like, scientifically speaking. It's like, oh, my God, like, look at all the technology we have. We can't. Like, we can't progress further than this. Right. But we can't. Like, when they're like, I don't have to throw my feces out the window. It's never getting better than this.

[Adam Ilsbury]

Just stick my ass out of a window.

[Matt Koplik]

No way. No way. I don't have to shit in a hole in the ground. My God.

[Adam Ilsbury]

Huzzah.

[Matt Koplik]

Huzzah. A marble toilet. You say so. Oh.

[Adam Ilsbury]

But, yeah, Peggy. Peggy sort of accompanies Mary to Reno because she decides that she's gonna get a divorce because things just aren't working, but then finds out while they're in Reno that she is pregnant and calls it all off and is like, I'm going back to my husband.

[Matt Koplik]

Well. Because she. Well, she calls him to see, like, sort of what his reaction is. And his reaction is, like, the best case reaction. He's like, oh, my God, I'm so happy. Forget everything that we were doing. Like, we have a baby. We'll do. We'll make it happen.

[Adam Ilsbury]

And.

[Matt Koplik]

Ugh.

[Adam Ilsbury]

But I will say that her acting in that scene in the film is like, quintessential late 30s, early 40s. Like, oh, darling. Really? Do you mean it? Oh, that's wonderful. It's so. It's so good.

[Matt Koplik]

Everybody who has an emotional moment in that movie has a quintessential 30s, 40s moment.

[Adam Ilsbury]

It's true.

[Matt Koplik]

It's Jon Fontaine on the phone of oh, Darling. And then even our little Mary, future Dinah Lord, who's, again, a phenomenal child actress. She has that terrible moment when Mary. She's.

[Adam Ilsbury]

The lines.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah, the lines are terrible. And she can't do anything with it. And it's when Mary tells her daughter midway through the movie, at end of Act 1 of the play, Mommy and Dad are getting divorced, and she doesn't understand. She's like, people fall out of love with each other. Are you gonna fall out of love with me? No. And she's like, okay, Mother, darling, you go to the car. I have to go to the restroom. And she goes to the bathroom, and she's like, oh, Daddy, darling. Mother, dear, do something. Mother, darling, dearly, darling. Daddy. I'm like, oh. Oh, that poor child.

[Adam Ilsbury]

Which is wild because the scene up until then is actually pretty good.

[Matt Koplik]

It's really well done.

[Adam Ilsbury]

It's a nice, straightforward conversation between a parent and a kid about a divorce. But, yeah, that last line is rough.

[Matt Koplik]

It's so rough. It's very well written. It's well acted from both of them. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And considering that Norma Shira was a movie star and she's the lead of this film where her husband was the head of the studio, like, she's not as indulgent in that movie as you would expect her to be.

[Adam Ilsbury]

No, she's really charming.

[Matt Koplik]

Her only real 30s moment is the very last shot of her with her arms out being like, Steven. Right.

[Adam Ilsbury]

Running to Steven, who we don't.

[Matt Koplik]

We never see. Yeah. Who would play Steven in 1939? Would it be Cary Grant? Or is he too dashing?

[Adam Ilsbury]

I think he. Well, I don't Me, Maybe Cary Grant. I'm trying to think of who else was huge at the time.

[Matt Koplik]

Because the thing about Steven is also that he's supposedly very weak.

[Adam Ilsbury]

Oh, Leslie Howard.

[Matt Koplik]

Oh, yeah.

[Adam Ilsbury]

I think it's a Leslie Howard moment.

[Matt Koplik]

And it's not in color, so you can't see the choice. Correct. Yeah.

[Adam Ilsbury]

He wouldn't need a tube. He'd be thinning.

[Matt Koplik]

It's true. It's true. But you know when he's. Because he's Ashley and Gone with the Wind. Right. Ashley with that again. With a rug on his face. Yeah, yeah. If that movie were in black and white, he wouldn't look as old as he does.

[Adam Ilsbury]

That's true.

[Matt Koplik]

It's just.

[Adam Ilsbury]

But. But no, he. I think Stephen would be an appropriate same move. Same year.

[Matt Koplik]

Same year. It's true. That was a great year for film. But yet Stephen is in 39.

[Adam Ilsbury]

1999.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah. The thing about Stephen is, what's so fascinating about him is he's talked about all the time is, like, he's the best of all the husbands. He's the handsomest. He's the kindest, he's the smartest. He's also the weakest. And, like, it's basically just being manipulated left and right by everybody. But also, like, is not Nastier in the play from everything we hear about him to marry. But like is just so much more indifferent towards her because he's. The word they always say is that she says, do you love me anymore? And he goes, well, I'm fond of you.

[Adam Ilsbury]

He blows her up off a fair amount. He also hangs up on her before a call is completely over.

[Matt Koplik]

He hangs up on her. He blows her off on too many times. And he says to her in the off stage confrontation, I'm awfully fond of you. And they're like, I don't want to get divorced and all these other things. In the movie, it's much more clear that he loves her very much. He's going through a midlife crisis and is sort of like in over his head with Crystal and ultimately marries Crystal out of obligation because once Mary goes through with the divorce, he's like, well, everyone has seen me in New York with this woman. We've been in the society pages together. I like, bought her an apartment. I gotta marry her now.

[Adam Ilsbury]

I love it that as a farewell to Mary, he sends her a flower with a note that says, what can I say?

[Matt Koplik]

Which can go either way. It's true. Edith, Edith. Edith is constantly getting knocked up.

[Adam Ilsbury]

Edith is always pretty.

[Matt Koplik]

Edith has an addiction to.

[Adam Ilsbury]

In the play.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah. Always pregnant in the play. She's an addiction to popping out cum nuggets. She just doesn't.

[Adam Ilsbury]

Oh my God.

[Matt Koplik]

What? That's what children are. They are overgrown Chia pets that you have to nurture. And then one day they resent you because they go to a psychoanalyst who tells them that it's all your fault. To which I say, bullshit, dearie. Edith. Edith, played by Jennifer Coolidge in the Roundabout Revival. Revival.

[Adam Ilsbury]

If. If you're. You can honestly skip most of the Roundabout Revival, but you could if you go and watch Jennifer Coolidge's scenes. They're all winners.

[Matt Koplik]

Coolidge is definitely the one who walks away with that production.

[Adam Ilsbury]

Yeah. Edith has. So Edith is kind of Sylvia's co conspirator. She. She actually does her fair. She. She does her best to try to talk Sylvia out of a lot of the awful things that she does. Yeah, she has a little bit more of a conscience and enjoys the gossip, but also is like she has a line.

[Matt Koplik]

It's more that she's a yes man. Like it's on all this bad stuff that Sylvia does. It's not that Edith endorses it so much as she doesn't stop her.

[Adam Ilsbury]

She's a Gretchen Wieners.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah. And I would Say in the movie, it's more that they imply more that, like, gossip is just sort of her weakness, but she is not her weapon. Whereas with Sylvia, it is her weapon, but also it ends up becoming her downfall. Like, it's hoisted up by Oren Petard.

[Adam Ilsbury]

And she has. There's an excellent scene at the top of Act 2, which is not in the film, sadly, because of Hay's code, probably.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah.

[Adam Ilsbury]

But she's just given birth to her fifth child, something like that, and she's grumpily breastfeeding and smoking whilst doing it and having it out with the nurse who isn't helping her. And is it Peggy that comes to visit her?

[Matt Koplik]

Peggy comes to visit her.

[Adam Ilsbury]

Peggy comes to visit it.

[Matt Koplik]

Oh.

[Adam Ilsbury]

Which is how we find out, I think, that Mary is going to Reno in the play where that exposition is given. But there's a great moment where, oh, my God. Peggy leans over to look at the baby whom Edith is holding, and she says, what's that on the baby's nose? And she goes, what? Oh, that's ash. And blows cigarette ash off of the baby's face. She has had. This poor child is. I don't know that it's gonna be neglected, but it is going to have the freest. It's gonna have the most freedom of any of her children.

[Matt Koplik]

Well, the play acknowledges that these women don't really raise their kids. Even Mary, her daughter is like. Her daughter was asking her, like, you know, what does her mom do? And she's like, well, I raise you and your brother. She's like, no, you don't. Right.

[Adam Ilsbury]

The native house staff.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah. Yeah. And she's like. And she's like, don't get me wrong, I love you. You're a great mother. Quote, unquote. You're around, you're swelling. She's like. But, like, we got people who raise me.

[Adam Ilsbury]

Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

It's like, I see. I see you every other day.

[Adam Ilsbury]

I get how it works, Mom.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah. Like, Mary Haynes is a good mother in context of 1936 high society. But how we would consider good mothers, Mary would be considered distant.

[Adam Ilsbury]

Yes.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah. Like, to her friends, Mary is considered overly involved in her kid's life, and she's actually more involved with her kid's life in the movie, probably because Norma Shearer was like, I want my first scene to be me and my daughter riding horse. And that's how we bond. Because if anything makes my character seem more approachable, it's that we have two houses, and in the second house, we ride horses.

[Adam Ilsbury]

It's Very relatable.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah. Again, it all comes back to riding Adam. Indeed. Yes. I think Claire Boothloos watched that scene and she was like, I'm gonna meet roald Dahl in 25 years. I'm getting ideas.

[Adam Ilsbury]

I think you're right.

[Matt Koplik]

Let's talk about Sylvia. But before we do that, let's take a. Take another break. Billy, I beg to differ with you. How do you mean? You're the top. Yeah. You're an arrow collar. You're the top. You're a Coolidge dollar. You're the nimble tread of the feet of Freddy St. You didn't like Eat My Chocolate Factory, Daddy. I heard that. That was a good one or something. Maybe. All right. Okay. Here go we. Here we go. And we're biak. So there's a big baddie here. Yeah. Her name is Sylvia Fowler.

[Adam Ilsbury]

Oh, she's great.

[Matt Koplik]

She's great. And we'll talk a little bit also about her comeuppance with the character of Miriam Ahrens. Oh, right.

[Adam Ilsbury]

We have to get to Miriam.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah. Miriam's fun. Played by Paulette Goddard in the movie. I don't know who plays her in the Roundabout Revival?

[Adam Ilsbury]

Not somebody I was familiar with.

[Matt Koplik]

No.

[Adam Ilsbury]

Oh, sorry. We're sucking on mints. If anybody's gonna complain about mouth sounds. Sorry.

[Matt Koplik]

Misophonia. Yeah. You're sucking on a mint. I'm sucking on Roald Dahl on his bfg.

[Adam Ilsbury]

Oh, is that who's over there?

[Matt Koplik]

That's who. Hi, Roald. Guys, Guess who's not dead.

[Adam Ilsbury]

Back from the grave, kids.

[Matt Koplik]

Yep. Listen, people say that they can't. We say that people can't change. But Roald Dahl and I have become very intimate. And he used to be an anti Semite. So I'm just saying, hand in hand, if we can live together, Jewish or not, it's all the same, black or white. We shouldn't kill each other. Cause it's lame. That's South Park. Thank you. So Sylvia is the quote, unquote, best frenemy of Mary. If you watch the movie, it's Rosalind Russell and her what is great. And I think it's her first comedic role.

[Adam Ilsbury]

Oh, was it really?

[Matt Koplik]

So, yes. There is a YouTube channel that I sometimes watch. It's called Tired Old Queen. At the movie Movies, it's Steve something or other. No, he plays the stand up comic in Trick. I'm forgetting his name.

[Adam Ilsbury]

Oh, I can picture him.

[Matt Koplik]

It might even be Haynes. Like H A Y N E S.

[Adam Ilsbury]

I can picture him.

[Matt Koplik]

Yes, he. And I bring him up because I Learned a little something about him that will come in handy when we talk about the, like, one major discord question. But he talks about how they were gonna go with the actress who did it on Broadway. And not many of the Broadway cast did the movie. The most of them who did the movie are, like, in small roles, like the manicurist and things like that. They were gonna go with the Broadway actress because we got Norma Shearer, we got Joan Crawford, and like, a couple of other actresses, like, we're good on marquee names. And Rosalind Russell really fought for it. And George Cuker, who was like a very famous women's director, said, like, well, Rosalind, you don't do comedy. And she's like, eh, I can do comedy.

[Adam Ilsbury]

And so she apparently auditioned just like, oh, I don't.

[Matt Koplik]

She's like, oh, I don't.

[Adam Ilsbury]

Watch me.

[Matt Koplik]

She said, sit your gay ass down, Georgie, and watch me. And then she apparently auditioned and did the sylvia scene like 12 different ways. Like, distinct ways. And then I guess, like, the biggest way was when the George Cukor was like, oh, I like that one. She was like, george, I had like all these nuanced takes. You go for the cartoon and he says, yes, because you are breaking up a marriage. You are, like, hurting this child's family's future. And you were doing all these manipulative, terrible things. The only way the audience. Audience is going to want to keep watching you is if you are ridiculous. And that is ultimately, I think, the template that people go with for Sylvia now. Because at the root of it, Sylvia is, first of all, she's very self conscious and vain and delicate. She's got a very fragile ego, but she is a vindictive cunt.

[Adam Ilsbury]

Oh, yeah, huh? Big, big, big time.

[Matt Koplik]

Big time twat.

[Adam Ilsbury]

Well, it's. I was gonna. I was gonna. I didn't know when I was gonna bring this up, but it was interesting in revisiting all of this material in its different forms of how, like, I don't know if a remake of this would happen now for a few reasons, but also just because we have housewives and I'm not really a watcher of Housewives. I was when they first started. But, like, I'm familia. Everything to know. Just sort of all of the levels of drama and crap that they do to each other. And it feels very much like the women.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah, yeah. Not as, I mean, I guess as quotable because people quote them all the time. Yeah. But not as refined and, But. But just as. As messy and otherworldly. In a way, because I think the thing about the women, it's sort of. Again, it's before we had Dallas and Dynasty and, you know, because we had. We had rich people plays and we had comedies and we had like, Oscar Wilde wit, but we didn't have women of high society on stage being ruthlessly cunty to each other in a way that the women is. And it is really the grandmama of all of the divas being assholes that we love. It's why we were talking about this in the Wicked episode with me and Joel of like, why we love watching women be bad, which ties us into the movies that you saw with Henna Lettuce of the Bad Seed, Valley of the Dolls. What was the other ones?

[Adam Ilsbury]

Whatever happened to Baby Jane? Bad Seed. I mean, any.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah. All of those women behaving.

[Adam Ilsbury]

Lots of Joan Crawford movies.

[Matt Koplik]

Women behaving badly and doing it while being quotable. Mm.

[Adam Ilsbury]

And usually looking fabulous.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah. Well, why do you think the gays love Evita the musical?

[Adam Ilsbury]

Right.

[Matt Koplik]

It's. I said it before. It's Dynasty meets Gypsy. You have the pipes of Ethel Merman and the bitchiness of Joan Collins with the, like, the furs and the heels. And it's somebody who society has told to be demure and quiet, being loud and obnoxious and usually getting their way and looking like a million. Looking like a million dollars while doing it. It's the ultimate fantasy.

[Adam Ilsbury]

Having a fur slapped on you by a chorus boy.

[Matt Koplik]

Yup.

[Adam Ilsbury]

Just hurting your arms, bruising your biceps.

[Matt Koplik]

It's why we all. It's why Samantha Jones is everyone's favorite Sex and the City character. Because. Well, not that she always looks fabulous. Kim Cattrall is a beautiful woman and she. She's so painfully thin in that show. But like, sometimes they dress her in ways from, like, are we in book a rattan? But. But when she's dressed well and she says a line that, like, cuts, it's. It's amazing. Who doesn't want to look like a million dollars and say the exact right thing at the exact right moment and be able to walk away, leaving everyone speechless?

[Adam Ilsbury]

Right. It's a lot of mic drops and flipping of hair.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah. I want to have so many mic drops without having to be held responsible for the damages to the mic.

[Adam Ilsbury]

Right.

[Matt Koplik]

Like, so present day society is mic drops. And then you kind of have to pay for the ramifications afterwards. Right. True. The women Valley of the Duels Dynasty bitchiness is mic drop and the other person has to pay the damages for the mic.

[Adam Ilsbury]

Right.

[Matt Koplik]

That is how you know you are the one.

[Adam Ilsbury]

I'm not paying for that.

[Matt Koplik]

No, that.

[Adam Ilsbury]

You made me say this. You can pay for it.

[Matt Koplik]

Oops. Look what you made me do. Look what you just made me do. Look what you just made me do. I don't think that's the exact right way to do that, but who cares? That's like, it's a B minus level Taylor Swift. Even if she. She is memorable and catchy and even she would admit that. But Sylvia is not fabulous. No, she's hilarious. Yes, she's memorable, but she's not fabulous.

[Adam Ilsbury]

Well, one of the bits of business that they give Rosalind Russell in the film that I find so interesting is that she's often knitting. Like when they go to the fashion show, she's sitting in the front row, but she's knitting while she's watching.

[Matt Koplik]

Because she isn't classy.

[Adam Ilsbury]

Right.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah.

[Adam Ilsbury]

I just think it's an interesting choice to add to her.

[Matt Koplik]

Sylvia is someone who clearly was probably not born into high society, but was born close enough to it. So when she married up, it was an easy transition enough for her. But she doesn't have any of the suaveness that everyone else around her does.

[Adam Ilsbury]

No, but she will ask to speak to the manager.

[Matt Koplik]

Oh, she will absolutely speak to the manager. For. She will try on a couture dress incorrectly ripping a seam, and then speak to the manager because the sales girl put it on her poorly. Right.

[Adam Ilsbury]

Well, that happens. She. She literally takes the. There's the one model when they're. When they go to the. The dress showroom and she manhandles the model who says. And says, you don't wear it like this. You wear it like this. This goes here and this goes here. But you find out that she's kind of vindictive toward this woman because this woman has been flirting with her husband, which kind of clues you into ultimately what will happen to Sylvia down the line.

[Matt Koplik]

Yes. The thing about Sylvia is that she is clearly jealous of everything that Mary has because Mary is wealthier than Sylvia. Her husband is. Is more attractive than Sylvia's. People like Mary more than they like Sylvia. She seems more content. And so when this bit of gossip happens with Steven, she cannot wait.

[Adam Ilsbury]

It's finally something about Mary that's not perfect.

[Matt Koplik]

Exactly. And it makes her so happy because Sylvia is. Sylvia is a Regina George in Gretchen Wieners station. And it kills her. Her.

[Adam Ilsbury]

Yeah, that's accurate.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah. She can never be the queen bee because she'll never be the richest, probably because she also, again, in my mind, she was not born into high society, she was one level below and married into it. And thus can never truly be at the crown. The only way you can be at the crown is if you just become so undeniably rich everyone has to flock to you. But that's never gonna happen for her. And Mary is just naturally all of that. And, and so even if like she doesn't have any reason to hate Mary, she still kind of does. Even if she's like kind of still her friend, if only because Mary is just so. It's hard. You don't want to betray Mary because she just has too many connections. But ultimately she does because it's just too many things pile up and she makes too many mean spirited choices against her, which Mary eventually has the wool pulled out from under her eye over her eyes to recognize that. But Sylvia, it's like Sylvia is the one who indirectly informs her about Crystal. She's the one who tells her go into that other room and tell her off. She's the one who fucking tells her like, oh, when you were in Bermuda, she was spending every day with Steven and met your kids.

[Adam Ilsbury]

Right? Well, and I remember you mentioned it a little bit ago, but the fact that rather than just say I was getting my nails done and this woman told me this, she decides to totally backdoor it and send Mary to the manicurist specifically just so she can get the gossip from the woman. Yeah, from the woman. Instead of, as a caring friend to say, I don't want to think that this is true, but this was said to me and I feel that I, as your friend I should give you a heads up. And instead she's like, eh, I'll let her get the gossip the same way I did and see how she deals.

[Matt Koplik]

Because Sylvia has no problem telling the rest of their friend friends.

[Adam Ilsbury]

Oh right, she's told all of the. So all the friends know before Mary has any idea exactly. Who then finds out indirectly through the manicurist because.

[Matt Koplik]

And Mary's even aware of what Mary understands what Sylvia did when she goes to the manicurist and finds out. Because when the manicurious, when she, when she walks away, she goes manicurious goes, I thought you came for all of Mrs. Fowler's friends come for her. And she goes, I think I just got what all of Mrs. Fowler's first friends come for. Hot goss. The hot goss. She knows, she understands that everyone's come to this woman for this and that's why Sylvia sent her. And it's and it's definitely the first crack in the foundation of their friendship. And Sylvia is also the one who kind of needles Mary towards divorce while also trying to play both sides. Because no matter what Mary does, Sylvia wants to be the one who's like, I told you that was the right decision. Because she'll be like, I mean, Steven's an absolute louse, but he does adore you. Well, he's very fond of you. And, like. And that Crystal girl is absolute nothing. But also, you should be very careful of her.

[Adam Ilsbury]

She. I mean, Sylvia is the queen of the backhanded compliment, because she can never say anything totally nice to somebody because there are a couple. I don't. I can't remember those specific lines, but the number of times where she'll, like, lightly compliment Mary, but also tear her down as soon as she's done, she'll be like, this dress looks great on you, although it could have looked better if xyz.

[Matt Koplik]

But she literally says to Edith, when she's giving the gossip about Steven, she goes, I was at Michael's getting my hair done. Oh, I really want you to go there too, babe. Whoever does your hair is terrible. Right? She goes, I despise whoever does your hair. And in the movie, they allow Edith to be like, oh, I know. I hate it right now. But in the play, Edith just fucking takes it. Right? But so Sylvia, all of this happens, right? And it culminates in, as Mary's in Reno, and in the movie, she meets the Countess and this other chick, Miriam Abrams. Miriam Aarons on the train to Reno. Yes. And we find out that the Countess has been married four different times. First guy died and left her everything because she was an A. First grade schlemiel.

[Adam Ilsbury]

Yeah. And are we introing Countess and Miriam now so we can tie in the Sylvia bit of the plot?

[Matt Koplik]

That's 1,000% what we're doing.

[Adam Ilsbury]

I just wanna make sure I'm on your train to Reno.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah. Thank you so much. Miriam is an ex chorus girl who got. Who, I guess, like, married someone. Like, not high society, but, like, higher up than a chorus girl. And she's going to Reno to get divorced. And we learned that. So the Countess is someone who basically, like, is in love with love. She gets married, the guy leaves her, she's heartbroken for all of a week, and she finds somebody else.

[Adam Ilsbury]

So she's in the play. She's introduced far earlier.

[Matt Koplik]

Yes. In the beauty salon. In the movie, we don't meet her until the train to Reno, and then the play there Is no scene on the train to Reno. We just are in Reno and we meet all the people that Mary has met.

[Adam Ilsbury]

Do we meet Miriam before? No, we just meet her at the ranch.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah, got it. Yes, exactly. So Mary meets Miriam and the Countess. Countess La Moor. Lamour. That's French for love. And again, love's love. She's getting her second divorce. Third divorce.

[Adam Ilsbury]

Third divorce. She's moving on to her fourth.

[Matt Koplik]

Yes, yes. What did she say she was like? We were skiing in the Alps and he pushed me down the mountain. And as I was tumbling down, that's when I realized he no longer loved me.

[Adam Ilsbury]

When I was halfway down, that's when I realized he no longer loved me. Then she falls directly into the arms of her.

[Matt Koplik]

Of her new husband.

[Adam Ilsbury]

Husband.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah. And again, she's like, l', amour. L'. Amour. Miriam. We find out she's divorcing her guy. Oh, I should.

[Adam Ilsbury]

Sorry. One other thing, because in the. They even changed it for the Roundabout revival with where the Countess doesn't appear in the parlor scene, but the lines are still the same. But at one point, she talks about how she's 42 and she walks out of the scene and they're all like, she's at least 50. Like, it's. Yeah, the Countess is very much trying to extend her youth as long as she can.

[Matt Koplik]

Yes, the Countess thinks that she is younger than she is. She acts younger than she is. She tends to marry younger men. Men.

[Adam Ilsbury]

Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

And because she's so wealthy, people let her get away with it. And she has a title. It's like a kind of bogus title, but it is a title.

[Adam Ilsbury]

And it's from her most recent marriage, though, isn't it? Isn't it her third husband, that's the count, Maybe.

[Matt Koplik]

Well, her most recent marriage would be the fourth one before Buck.

[Adam Ilsbury]

Okay, so.

[Matt Koplik]

So. And. And turns. And there's rumors in that the Count is actually gay. So it's like a beard marriage, right?

[Adam Ilsbury]

Oh, right. They say he's a fairy or a. Something along those lines.

[Matt Koplik]

Yes, both the movie and the play refer to it, but they use different verbiage. Actually, no, no, no. Because they use the same line in the movie, but it's about somebody else. But it's the same thing. Yeah. But, yes, in the movie, the Countess doesn't show up till the train. In the Roundabout revival, she doesn't show up till Reno. In the play, she's there early in the beauty parlor when Mary goes to get her nails done and gets all the gossip. And. Yeah, she. She's Getting her hair done. She's getting like, her skin tightened. She wants. She's learning what mud masks are. So now she wants a mud mask. And yeah, she says, like, oh, I'm 42 and I just. I want to be able to, you know, look a few years younger than my age. And she walks out and they're like, she's at least 50 or 55, and like, if she gets another hair dye job, like, she's gonna.

[Adam Ilsbury]

It's gonna fall out.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah. Like, she's gonna have no. Have no hair in her head. And they're all like. And by the way, she sheds like a banshee.

[Adam Ilsbury]

If I kept my hair natural like.

[Matt Koplik]

You, I'd be bald. Exactly. Thank you, Veer. But so Countess is. They all go to Reno. And wouldn't you know it, as soon as the Countess gets to Reno, that's when she falls for our rodeo hand, Buck Winston, who. She. Who's much younger but very hot and for some reason likes the Countess. And so they get married and flash forward two years later, she turns him into a movie radio star and he falls for Crystal. That's aside. Miriam, the showgirl, she's getting divorced because she's found a new man, a richer man, and she won't say who.

[Adam Ilsbury]

This is actually my favorite bit of drama in the entire show.

[Matt Koplik]

It's great. Well, it's also. And it. It happens so quickly in the play, it's a little more drawn out. In the movie you get the information earlier in the movie.

[Adam Ilsbury]

Yes. You. You find out who it is prior to the. The incident where in the play the information is revealed.

[Matt Koplik]

Yes, exactly. You. So let's go with the one that's better. In the movie.

[Adam Ilsbury]

Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

Miriam reveals to Mary and the Countess that she has been having an affair with Sylvia's husband, Mr. Fowler. Howard Fowler.

[Adam Ilsbury]

Howard Fowler.

[Matt Koplik]

And that he plans to divorce Sylvia for her, but she's got to get divorced first. And so all is well and good in the hood and everyone's having actually really lovely time in Reno. And Peggy shows up as well. And, you know, Peggy's not happy, but whatever. When is Peggy ever happy? And Sylvia.

[Adam Ilsbury]

And Peggy, she's truly, truly. And Peggy.

[Matt Koplik]

And Peggy. Yeah. If ever there was an end. Peggy, it's literally Peggy. It's literally. Literally. There's no bigger Peggy than Peggy.

[Adam Ilsbury]

She out peggies.

[Matt Koplik]

And Peggy, she really does out Peggy and Peggy, that, that, that is.

[Adam Ilsbury]

She's. And. And Peggy.

[Matt Koplik]

She'S asterisk. Peggy.

[Adam Ilsbury]

Asterisk.

[Matt Koplik]

And Peggy, she's an at risk asterisk.

[Adam Ilsbury]

Oh, my God.

[Matt Koplik]

I don't even know what that means, but I'm proud of it.

[Adam Ilsbury]

Sounds great.

[Matt Koplik]

Thank you so much.

[Adam Ilsbury]

I'm proud of you.

[Matt Koplik]

I feel like that's most quippy dialogue is. I don't even know what that means, but I'm proud of it. But. So they're all in Reno now, and who shows up but fucking Sylvia Fowler? Because Howard is divorcing her because he also has found out that she's been cheating on him. And he's like. He's like, let's just. We're gonna make this happen.

[Adam Ilsbury]

He's like, this is a one way street. You can't cheat on me.

[Matt Koplik]

And basically says, I'll give you the option of divorcing me if you go to. And go to Reno. He's like, that is like the one gift I'll give you. He's like, otherwise, I'm divorcing you. And you get absolutely nothing. So she goes to Reno and informs everybody of everything. And apparently the gossip columns show up in Reno that day that say, then Miriam's the one who's stealing Howard away from Sylvia.

[Adam Ilsbury]

And she happens to be standing right there, right there.

[Matt Koplik]

She reads it, she clocks it. She sees that it's Miriam. And one of the lines that's in the play that I'm glad is in the movie is because, like, Sylvia is getting some money from Howard. Like, she's not going away penniless. But basically the whole reason is Howard already wants to be done with Sylvia. She's given him this out, and he's like, basically, like, whatever it takes to make you go away. Like, here it is. And Sylvia is like, going on and on about, like, Miriam being like, a floozy and a gold digger and a slut and all you. And Miriam's like, you're just angry because Howard's paying you whatever it takes to go away, and he's paying whatever it takes to keep me. I'm saying the line incorrectly, but it's something along those lines.

[Adam Ilsbury]

Yeah, that's pretty close.

[Matt Koplik]

Yes. And they go into a giant cat fight.

[Adam Ilsbury]

Oh, it's so good.

[Matt Koplik]

Resulting in Sylvia biting Miriam on the leg. And they go, there's Iontine in the house. And she's like, I need a rabies shot. It's phenomenal.

[Adam Ilsbury]

It's great.

[Matt Koplik]

And so what I like about. About the movie, how they do this is that Miriam actually becomes. And she's. I would argue that Miriam becomes a good friend to Mary in the play as well. Yes. It's a more cynical lens. Because Mary more openly is like, I don't really like or trust women anymore. And, like, who I have around me is, like, the least worst of the bunch.

[Adam Ilsbury]

Yeah. I mean, Miriam is. While she did, you know, while she did cheat with Sylvia's husband, she's the least vindictive of anybody.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah. She didn't do it to spite Sylvia.

[Adam Ilsbury]

She.

[Matt Koplik]

She's like, she and Howard get along. She also is aware that Howard is miserable with Sylvia. Howard with Sylvia is what Steven is with Crystal. Like, he's drinking himself into oblivion. And she even says to Mary, because Mary's like, oh, you know, you need a man who really needs you. And Miriam's like, yeah, he needs me. She's like, without me, like, he's going to drink himself to death. And, like, I'm the only one that can get him out of it. And he is a sweetheart, like, down to his core. So, like, I'm gonna get out of him. There's a. They cut the line in the plot in the movie, one of the plays. She talks about how two years later, she's like, she's doing the greatest reconstruction job on him of all time. And they keep. They keep. They keep that line in the movie, but they cut the second half because she was like, we're already on, like, the next stage of his drinking progress. And they're like, oh, what's the progress? She goes, well, now he puts ice in it.

[Adam Ilsbury]

Oh, right. There are actually a lot of really good drink jokes in the. The show and in the movie. But there's, like, getting a Bromo, but with gin.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah, give me a. Yes, a Bromo and put some gin in it. But so I would say Miriam in the movie, Mary kind of has a much more healthy circle of friends in the second half of the movie because of, like, it's like the Reno brigade. They all bond over their divorces and their trauma and all this other stuff.

[Adam Ilsbury]

And, like, they're all just, like, doing peyote and Reno together.

[Matt Koplik]

Exactly. Peggy is in a happier place after the baby, and so she up ends and Johnny are happier. Now. Edith is, like, kind of severed ties with Sylvia because Sylvia also, like, has severed ties with all of them. And it's. It turns out, like, she's really kind of the toxic apple that's been ruining the bunch.

[Adam Ilsbury]

Correct.

[Matt Koplik]

Because Edith becomes a better friend when Sylvia's cut out. And Miriam is, like, a genuine friend. And even the Countess is a good friend to me.

[Adam Ilsbury]

Because Edith and Peggy are close.

[Matt Koplik]

Yes. I would say. I think that Edith, I feel Like Edith is the second best friend to all of them and the best friend to none. Them. Of. Of them. Yeah. Does that make sense? Cuz like I would. I would argue Peggy probably would say that Mary's her best friend. And I would say that like Sylvia would say that she was. That Sylvia would say that she was Mary's best friend, but maybe Mary wasn't her best friend. Right, yeah. You know what I mean?

[Adam Ilsbury]

I do, yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah. Know Edith is like the ultimate second tier gal.

[Adam Ilsbury]

Yes.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah. She's always invited. She's not usually top of the list.

[Adam Ilsbury]

So. So then we have.

[Matt Koplik]

Oh.

[Adam Ilsbury]

So moving Sylvia forward, combining her story with Krystal so the two of them end up sort of becoming friends.

[Matt Koplik]

When Sylvia cuts herself out of that friend group, she latches onto Crystal mostly.

[Adam Ilsbury]

Just so she can stay in that world.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah. Cause Crystal has done pretty well for herself considering she's the second wife that started in an affair. Like she. Steven's been doing well. They're well kept. And it seems that society has mostly welcomed her, if maybe not with open arms. They haven't totally shunned her from what I gather. Yeah.

[Adam Ilsbury]

No, it doesn't seem like she's been ostracized at all.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah.

[Adam Ilsbury]

So two years pass and we discover Crystal in a bathtub on the phone with who we find out is infinite fact.

[Matt Koplik]

Buck. Yes.

[Adam Ilsbury]

The Countess's. Are they married at that point?

[Matt Koplik]

Yes. Fifth husband and now officially a star.

[Adam Ilsbury]

So. And she's having a flirt manse with him. I don't know if they've actually like officially made anything happen. I think they have.

[Matt Koplik]

No.

[Adam Ilsbury]

They have. Have they?

[Matt Koplik]

Yes. Cause she said the line in the movie, she says, lord knows we've been discreet. Yes, that's right.

[Adam Ilsbury]

You're right.

[Matt Koplik]

And in the play they talk about the gothic apartments because that's where they go in and out of which are. And the Gothic apartments are notorious for affairs.

[Adam Ilsbury]

Oh, right, because she finds the key to the apartment.

[Matt Koplik]

Yes, Sylvia finds the key to the apartment.

[Adam Ilsbury]

So in this scene with the bathtub, Krystal's in the bathtub and on the phone with Buck and little Mary Jr, who's staying with Steven while. Oh no, Reno's over at this point.

[Matt Koplik]

Yes, Reno's been. Yeah.

[Adam Ilsbury]

But she's staying with Steven. She's staying with Steven for the weekend. Overhears Crystal on the phone and gets a sense that something's going down. Yeah. And Crystal has had a private phone line installed in this area of the house so she can keep up her shenanigans. Exactly. And Crystal discovers that little Mary is standing there and kind of knows that she knows and sort of threatens her. But I don't know, she doesn't really threaten her. She does a weak job of keeping Mary from battling.

[Matt Koplik]

She tries to confront her. She tries to be sweet at first, but it's not in her nature. And then she's basically just like, why don't you.

[Adam Ilsbury]

She's supposed to call me Auntie Crystal.

[Matt Koplik]

And then she's basically just like, you fucking little brat, you. You're supposed. You're. Why don't you like me? She's like, I've done everything I could to be nice to you. And like, God bless Mary. She's like, I have been perfectly pleasant to you, Crystal. I really have, because my mother told me to always be polite to you because you're married to my father. She's like. And I think that I have actually been very well behaved, considering. You are terrible.

[Adam Ilsbury]

The number of times in that scene that little Mary is basically like. I said, good day.

[Matt Koplik]

Yep.

[Adam Ilsbury]

Good day to you. And. And Crystal will be like, before you leave, I just need to say one more thing to you. And she's like, good day. Goodbye.

[Matt Koplik]

Goodbye. I gotta go.

[Adam Ilsbury]

Yeah, leaving. It's gotta rat your ass out.

[Matt Koplik]

It's. Well, also, it's just like. It's a matter of. I hate to say good breeding, but, like, good manners being shown to this girl in terms of. Like, yeah, of just learn to hold your ground, do not speak too much. And just like, take the high road. Take the high road. And she does ultimately, like. And she chooses her words very carefully because all she has to say to Crystal is when Crystal's like, I'll report you to your father. And little Mary just goes, daddy doesn't think you're special anymore, actually. No, sorry. In the play, she says. She goes, daddy doesn't think you're. That you're so wonderful, that you're as wonderful anymore. And in the movie, she says, daddy doesn't think you're so special anymore. And. And then her final line is, and by the way, I think this bathroom is perfectly ridiculous. Good day.

[Adam Ilsbury]

And then walks away, and then is quickly followed by Sylvia, who comes in.

[Matt Koplik]

Yes. So in the play, Sylvia realizes what's been going, no. Sylvia sees a key to the Gothic apartments, and she asks Crystal what's up? And Crystal blows it off. She goes, oh, that's where Steven and I used to go before the marriage. And I keep it for sentimental reasons. And then Sylvia doesn't really think much of it after that because in the play, Sylvia doesn't know about Buck, Right? Yeah. It's revealed to her from Mary in the bathroom. In the final scene in the movie, Crystal goes to take a shower, and the phone rings again, and it's Buck who's been drinking gin. And we learn when Buck drinks gin, he starts to blabber. And Sylvia picks it up, and she starts howling. She says, buck Winston was singing love songs into your phone. Crystal, you dog. Oh.

[Adam Ilsbury]

Cause there's a running sort of yippee ki yi yay song joke. It's in the play, but it's used more.

[Matt Koplik]

It's used better in the movie. And Crystal even says to Sylvia, she's like, chris. She goes, sylvia Fowler, you've got nothing on me. And Sylvia, to her credit, she's like, why do I care if I have anything on you? She's like, my life is better if you are still with Steven. She's like, I will say nothing. She's like, I'm just telling you. I know. And be careful.

[Adam Ilsbury]

Check yourself.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah, yeah. She's like, don't be messy. She's like, get your zhuzh. Because she even says, like, early, before she finds out that she and Buck are. She's saying, like, oh, he's like the chambermaid's delight. Meaning, like, I don't find him attractive, but I understand that the common woman finds him hot, which Crystal takes offense to.

[Adam Ilsbury]

It just means he's rugged.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah.

[Adam Ilsbury]

He's a cowboy.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah, I'm sure. I'm sure everyone in this room, no matter your affiliation, would see Buck Winston and be like, yes, please. Yeah, we see his bfg, and we'd.

[Adam Ilsbury]

Say, that is Big Friendly Giant.

[Matt Koplik]

And we would say, that is a fantastic Mr. Fox you have.

[Adam Ilsbury]

I'm no twit.

[Matt Koplik]

You want to break my glass elevator. The women may have broken the glass ceiling, but Buck Winston can break my glass elevator.

[Adam Ilsbury]

Buck, what's your real name? James. What a giant peach you have.

[Matt Koplik]

There we go.

[Adam Ilsbury]

Okay.

[Matt Koplik]

Moving on. Moving on. It's gonna keep. It's the gift that keeps on giving. But, yeah, it's. It's. Yeah, he's rugged. He's not like a classy man. Yeah, but so it's not like she's jealous of her for being with Buck or anything like that. It's just. She's like, yeah, like, you want to get dick down? She even says in the play, she was like, she. In the play. In the movie, she has a psychoanalyst who she blabs everything to. And he's a total Fraud. And she's like kind of secretly in love with. With him. And there's a great line in the play that's not in the movie where she was like, steven has a guilt complex. That's what my therapist says, that he has a guilt complex. And you know, he married you because so that way he could justify having an affair with you so he doesn't seem like a sexual monster. And Crystal goes, if Steven's a sexual monster, then psychoanalysm is really over. Like, it's. It's like that man is not a sex monster. No, no, but so in the play, in the movie, basically what happens is older Mary and young Mary are in bed and old Mary is like all content with her book and reading, hasn't washed yet. And little Mary asks her, like, why would someone need a phone in their bathroom? Why Krystal has one in her bathroom. She's talking to someone kind of lovey dovey. Don't know what that was about. And then she also makes it more clear in the movie that Steven's super, like, miserable with Crystal.

[Adam Ilsbury]

Oh, right.

[Matt Koplik]

Whereas in the play she's like. He doesn't say it, but I can tell. But in the movie, she's like, I watch him, like in his study with his head in his hands while Crystal plays solitaire, like with a radio on, which is like, I just imagine that image. I'm like, oh, poor Steven.

[Adam Ilsbury]

How sad.

[Matt Koplik]

How sad. But I love that. Like, that's the catalyst because she's like, why would someone need a phone in their bathroom? And Mary's antenna goes up. She's like, Crystal's doing something. And she goes, and if I know, know, who would know? It's gonna be Sylvia. So I'm gonna set a trap.

[Adam Ilsbury]

Gotta. Yeah, I gotta get Sylvia back in the mix just to get the info in.

[Matt Koplik]

And so the movie does a much better job of Mary scheming because whereas in the play it's more sort of like she just kind of keeps causing chaos till something happens.

[Adam Ilsbury]

Yes.

[Matt Koplik]

And in the movie she's like, I know who I need the information from, and I know exactly which hill to roll the rock down.

[Adam Ilsbury]

It's a great setup at the end of the film. Yes, it does. Does wrap everything up nicely in a neat little package.

[Matt Koplik]

Exactly. And maybe it's because it's a stupid shrink wrapped Hollywood movie with hays code, but it's just better constructed.

[Adam Ilsbury]

Yeah, it 100% is.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah. Because the reveal comes from Sylvia officially of just Mary playing her like a damn fiddle. And then they even get the physical comedy of her being in the closet. Like, can you imagine the good physical comedy Kristen Johnson could have done if they had done that closet bit in the Roundabout revival?

[Adam Ilsbury]

Great.

[Matt Koplik]

It would have been just like her falling out of the window in Sex and the City Split.

[Adam Ilsbury]

And her character is not totally unlike that character, the way she plays Sylvia, but just with a transatlantic accent.

[Matt Koplik]

I would argue that none of them in that Roundabout production. Okay, you know, here's what we're gonna do. Here's what we're gonna fucking do. We're gonna talk about that Roundabout revival after this break. And we're back. Okay, so the Women has only been on Broadway three times. Originally in 1936, where it ran for 666 performances in the 1970s. I want to say 72.

[Adam Ilsbury]

Like, right before or somewhere around there.

[Matt Koplik]

72 or 74.

[Adam Ilsbury]

It was either right before 74 sounds right.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah. It was either right before Follies or right after Follies. Because Alexis Smith, I believe, played Sylvia.

[Adam Ilsbury]

It was 74. It was after Follies.

[Matt Koplik]

Okay. She played Sylvia. Who else is in? It was.

[Adam Ilsbury]

That's not the infamous Elaine Stritch production. No, that was like a random large champion. Yeah, that was like summer stock somewhere, probably.

[Matt Koplik]

My God, she's finished. I believe that was a regional production.

[Adam Ilsbury]

Okay.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah. Somebody big was married. Was it Barbara Bel Geddes or someone like that?

[Adam Ilsbury]

There were a few good names in that production, but I. Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

The point is that the third time, the third and final time the Women was done on Broadway. It was 2001 at the roundabout, and it starred Cynthia Nixon as Mary Haines, Jennifer Tilly as Crystal Allen, Kristen Johnston as Sylvia Fowler. Fowler. Amy Ryan.

[Adam Ilsbury]

Amy Ryan as Peggy.

[Matt Koplik]

Yep. Jennifer Coolidge is Edith. Mary Louise Wilson as Mary's mother. Pepsi Girl as Mary's daughter, Heather Matarazzo as a maid. Yes, yes, yes. And then also Julie Halston. Julie Halston, yeah. Doing blackface. And then who's.

[Adam Ilsbury]

But not really well.

[Matt Koplik]

Okay, so the joke is that we're. So Adam and I were talking about this because the whole thing is directed by Scott Elliott, who was, like, considered this young, up and coming director in the 90s. 90s. And every time he would do Broadway, it wouldn't go well. And I say this because he would.

[Adam Ilsbury]

Always do edgy takes on things that were not quite there.

[Matt Koplik]

Yes. He would take classics and do an edgy take on it, and it didn't work. And Ben Brantley talks about this in his review for the Women. If you read it, basically, he's like, every time Elliot does something off Broadway, it's great. He's like, every time he comes to Broadway, I can't explain it to you. It just doesn't work. He also says, scott Elliott touch a full frontal nudity every time time. Cuz apparently he did it in present laughter as well. I'm like, where are you going to do full frontal nudity and present laughter.

[Adam Ilsbury]

I didn't see that production, so I couldn't tell you.

[Matt Koplik]

Listen, I know that Noel Coward likes Dong, but, like, not. Nothing about a no Coward play screams Dong to me, you know? And you're talking to somebody. Like, if he could find a way to put Dong in hello Dolly, he would.

[Adam Ilsbury]

Hello, Dongy.

[Matt Koplik]

Hello, Don. Gross. Take off your Sunday clothes. I say you put your hand in where Ribbons down. Shoot those ribbons all up and down my back. God, can you believe that I'm the second most streamed podcast on the Broadway Podcast Network.

[Adam Ilsbury]

Congratulations.

[Matt Koplik]

Thank you so much.

[Adam Ilsbury]

Spotify numbers just came out today.

[Matt Koplik]

They sure did. Yeah, that's that. I'm number two on Spotify. Probably number one on, like, Mega FM or something. Something fourth. Yeah, but it's because of all the children who listen to this and go to their parents and go, mommy, Daddy, what does it mean to shoot ribbons all up and down someone's back?

[Adam Ilsbury]

Oh, man.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah.

[Adam Ilsbury]

Don't. Don't ask your parents again how far we've come.

[Matt Koplik]

In the 1930s, kids used to ask you, mommy, why would a person need a phone in their bathroom? And now they're like, mommy, what's a cum dumpster?

[Adam Ilsbury]

What's pegging.

[Matt Koplik]

Mommy, what does it mean to have a third? Why would someone want to be spun around naked on a lazy Susan? Sorry, I don't mean to name drop, but I was telling a remus the other day, like, that's my favorite. Whenever I think of Stark Sands, I think of that quote from Dai. Mommy.

[Adam Ilsbury]

Dai. Which one?

[Matt Koplik]

When he's telling Charles Bush that he was accused of hosting a gay orgy in the faculty lounge of his college, that they found him in the faculty lounge naked being spun around on a lazy Susan. I'm like, that's how I prefer to think of Stark Sands whenever I can. But that's also my go to whenever I think of something very slutty, it's just like, put me naked on a lazy Susan and spin me around, baby.

[Adam Ilsbury]

Not. Not dealing with cannibalism on a lifeboat.

[Matt Koplik]

I said it before my review podcast when you told me that you were swallowing stock Sands. This is not what I thought you meant. I thought that was clever, too. But so salty. Yeah, but so in 2001. So who's the motormouth Mabel of Hairspray?

[Adam Ilsbury]

Oh, Mary Bond Davis.

[Matt Koplik]

She's in it. She is.

[Adam Ilsbury]

She's one of the maids.

[Matt Koplik]

Yes. Opposite Heather Matarazzo. Yes, yes, yes. I feel like there's one. Oh, and Rue McClanahan, obviously, she's the Countess. So the joke is Scott Elliot doing, like, all these edgy things. And in the scene in the beauty parlor before Mary shows up to get her nails did. Normally, what happens in the script as written is that the Countess is getting her hair and someone comes up to her in a mud mask and it's like, oh, my God, is that the Countess? Guess who it is. And she's like, oh, nice to see you. And she walks away and she's like, who the fuck was that? And they learned about the mud mask and all this other stuff. And a bipoc intendant comes in to take the woman to the mud mask away. She's like, you're gonna crack your mud. Get over here. Scott Elliott's like, oh, Claire Boothe Luce made that attendant a person of color. She's in a mud mask. Let's do some commentary. So Julie Halston is the friend in the mud mask. They don't make it the countess because Rue McClan Henna is like, I won't be getting to the theater till 9 o', clock, so make it someone else. She's like, my story's going till 8:30. But so someone else is in the. Is in the booth. And Julie Halston shows up in her mud mask with the black attendant. And she was like. She's like, oh, darling, it's you. And then she looks at the black attendant, points to herself and the attendant and goes, guess who I am. Am making a blackface joke. It's not what it's meant to be in the script, but Scott Elliott said, hey, let's make. Make a joke about how racist these white women are. And I'm like, they're white women. You already assume they're racist. Then you tell me it's 1936. And I'm just like, well, they hate everyone who's not a white person.

[Adam Ilsbury]

Yeah, that part.

[Matt Koplik]

Yes, exactly. I'm like, we don't need that joke. It's. It's not good. That revival. How would you say that it was received?

[Adam Ilsbury]

Well, I didn't. I haven't. I vaguely remember it was not terribly well received.

[Matt Koplik]

Yes.

[Adam Ilsbury]

I don't remember specific reviews, but I remember it I don't remember there it being like, you know, praised by any means.

[Matt Koplik]

I believe that Jennifer Coolidge got a Drama Desk nomination, which is correct. And Isaac Mizrahi got a nomination at the Drama Desks for his costume. And they weren't nominated for anything at.

[Adam Ilsbury]

The Tony Awards, which is surprising because I don't even remember what other plays were up for revival that year.

[Matt Koplik]

That was the season. That was the 2002 season. So that was Private Lives. Which one? Which was.

[Adam Ilsbury]

That was Alan Rickman. Rickman and Lindsey Duncan.

[Matt Koplik]

Sure was Okay. I remember they won Set Design and I was a 12 year old little nobody and I was like, how could into the woods lose set design? They had books on stage. The castle came up from the ground. No, it didn't. That was the og. But yeah, I don't know. I don't remember what the other revivals were, but whatever it was, the point is, like, the women was just considered so underwhelming that even with the PBS with the starry cast, they're like, fuck this, we don't need to.

[Adam Ilsbury]

They also opened really close to September 11th, right afterwards.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah, yeah. But in some ways that because it was financially successful, you look at the grosses like they did well.

[Adam Ilsbury]

I mean, if we've learned anything from. From that whole experience, people were looking for comedies at that point. And so it did do well, I think, because people were like, oh, it's all these women that I know and it's a comedy.

[Matt Koplik]

And yeah, again, Sex and the City was super huge. It was the idea of, oh, this is a precursor to Golden Girls in Sex and the City and the Things We Love.

[Adam Ilsbury]

And it's a pretty sad cast, especially for a Roundabout.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah, it was at the American Airlines Theater, which had just opened, I think man who Came to Dinner was the year before.

[Adam Ilsbury]

Yeah. Man who Came to dinner was 2000. And so it was like in the season following.

[Matt Koplik]

Yes. And so a hit for Roundabout on a financial level.

[Adam Ilsbury]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

But it was not well received. No one really talks about it much. You can watch the whole thing on YouTube. Scott Elliott, by the way, who I think is the artistic director of the new group.

[Adam Ilsbury]

Correct.

[Matt Koplik]

Which has had some successes and some downs, but in terms of his Broadway career, the last two shows he did were the same season, back to back, and it was the revivals of the Threepenny Opera at Roundabout and the commercial revival of Barefoot in the Park. Oh. With Amanda P. Patrick Wilson and Jill Kleyberg. Right. That everyone detested.

[Adam Ilsbury]

Yeah, they did.

[Matt Koplik]

They said it was like the most unfunny production of Neil Simon ever.

[Adam Ilsbury]

I remember kind of looking forward to that production because I'd never seen the play on stage. I knew it, but I only had seen the film and I was excited about it. And then I just remember it getting the most God awful response. And I could not waste my $5 that I probably had in my bank account at the time to come see it.

[Matt Koplik]

And two and a half hours of the life that you just had in your bank account. That's the other thing that. It's money aside, it's like, do I want to spend these minutes of my life doing this?

[Adam Ilsbury]

Yeah. I mean, I've said it a million times. I will happily go see a bad musical over a bad play. Because at least a musical, there's song and usually like some kind of rhythm that's moving things forward. And then when a play is just not landing, it is.

[Matt Koplik]

But. Yeah, but when those songs and those rhythms are Paradise Square, is it really worth it?

[Adam Ilsbury]

Listen, I saw Scandalous with Carolee Carmelo.

[Matt Koplik]

So did I. I was at opening night faggot. Oh, okay.

[Adam Ilsbury]

I sat in a very empty mezzanine with co workers of mine at the time. We had had several margaritas before the show and sat and laughed our asses off while some poured dance captain sat like two rows over from us taking notes because they were still in previews.

[Matt Koplik]

I was at opening night with that set that looked like the Mormon.

[Adam Ilsbury]

It's the Fortress of Solitude.

[Matt Koplik]

Yes. As designed by the Mormon Church. It was the most. Everyone was so obligated to stand at the end. There was not a cheer to be heard. It was just stand and clap. And the opening night party was at the Copa Cabin.

[Adam Ilsbury]

Great.

[Matt Koplik]

The one that's on 8th Avenue.

[Adam Ilsbury]

Right.

[Matt Koplik]

Like the one that's not the real Copa.

[Adam Ilsbury]

Right.

[Matt Koplik]

And everyone was just sort of like, bar, bar, bar, please, you should be.

[Adam Ilsbury]

Offering me a drink as I walk into this space.

[Matt Koplik]

Yes. I have. I don't. I have. I. I should have that playbill still.

[Adam Ilsbury]

I, I have mine somewhere.

[Matt Koplik]

Because I, I again, I was at opening night. I don't. I was. I was doing. I'm doing inventory of all my playbills. I'm like, I don't know if I have my scandal bill. I think I do. And, well, if I do, it doesn't have a sticker on the front, which you. A lot of shows usually do. But it could just be that the producers, like, we're not paying for stickers.

[Adam Ilsbury]

Yeah. I mean, that's an additional expense.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah.

[Adam Ilsbury]

So they probably just didn't. They probably didn't have the money to do it.

[Matt Koplik]

I mean, listen, my Annie opening night playl doesn't have the sticker on it. Yeah, I have, like, I have to. I had to put my after party slip inside to prove to people who want to buy it. Like, this is. This is opening that. I'm telling you. Promise? Promise. I was there. I was there. But so Scott Elliott with this. The whole thing is just. If you watch it, guys, the whole thing just doesn't click at all.

[Adam Ilsbury]

I think the thing that I have the most trouble with, I mean, the casting is great in some places, sadly. And I like Cynthia Nixon a lot of the time, but this is not her role. She's really shrill and, and just. And well. And as we've already talked about the character in the film, and I don't know if it's just because of Norma Shearer's warmth in the film, like, if it's just her portrayal or if they did enough zhuzhing of the script for the film, if Anita Luz coming in and adapting that play as a screenplay, if what she did softened the character up enough that you had a bit more energy, empathy for her.

[Matt Koplik]

Well, they gave her spunk.

[Adam Ilsbury]

They did give her spunk.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah. They gave her a sense of humor and an attitude.

[Adam Ilsbury]

But the thing that I, in rewatching it, and I told Matt this already, I rewatched, with the exception of two scenes, the roundabout one on YouTube at 1.5 times the speed just to get through it because it's not a short play. And the fact that at the 1.5 speed, it felt more like the tempo of the film has got to tell you something. Like, it, it was just. The direction was just really draggy. And it didn't have that fast talking, his Girl Friday bantery wit about it.

[Matt Koplik]

It didn't have a motor.

[Adam Ilsbury]

No, they just try to sit in too many moments instead of letting it just drive.

[Matt Koplik]

But that's sort of the thing, is that the reputation of the women outside of the original production, which was just objectively a hit, but also like, not critically successful. I, I used to have a book of New York Times reviews of the Ben Brantley compiled in the, like, early 2000s of like, specific productions that were very important. And one was the women in Brooks Atkinson's review. And basically, like, he goes on and on about, like, how witty it is, how fashionable it is, that the acting is great and like, it has a lot to say, quote, unquote. And like, ends the review with and I hated every second of it. He's like. I. It's like. And I thought it was terrible.

[Adam Ilsbury]

Oh, that's great.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah.

[Adam Ilsbury]

I love that.

[Matt Koplik]

Right? Like, yes. There's a reason why he used to have a theater named after him, but, like. Yeah, it's. The whole review is him just, like, he's. He's giving a lot of credit where it's due. And then at the end, he's like. I imagine. He's like. And I imagine this is going to be a very enjoyable night of theater for a lot of people. I hated it. And still a hit. The movie is ultimately what gives that property its reputation and it's. And its belovedness. And we know this because, like, pretty immediately after that movie, they did a musical remake in the 50s called the opposite Sex.

[Adam Ilsbury]

Oh, right, right, right, right.

[Matt Koplik]

With Ann Miller and a bunch of other people. Yep. And that one. They actually included the men.

[Adam Ilsbury]

Yes.

[Matt Koplik]

They didn't have that gimmick. They did a TV movie of the women as well. They were gonna do a male twist remake. I forgot what it was gonna be called, but. It's gonna be all men. Yes. And I was looking it up. The only two names I remember at the top of my head who were gonna be in it were Robert Wagner and Tab Hunter. And. But, like, the exact same plot just inverted with the sexes. And instead of a manicurist, it's a bartender who tells him, like, sure, your wife's cheating on you. I know, right? It got scrapped. But, yeah, I know, I know, I know. Good. And then we have our Meg Ryan remake in the. In the ottoman that our landlord Chris Nicolosi here absolutely loves because it's great airplane fodder. Chris's compliment for it, not mine. Right. Yes. Love it. Thank you. I need people to tell me that I'm correct. So on stage, though, it only has that 70s revival, which lasts less than two months, commercially speaking.

[Adam Ilsbury]

Yes.

[Matt Koplik]

And then. Isn't it.

[Adam Ilsbury]

Did Robert Moore direct that one?

[Matt Koplik]

Maybe.

[Adam Ilsbury]

Was that a Robert Moore moment? I could be very.

[Matt Koplik]

I hope not. I like to think that Robert Moore only had success. Exactly. Well, did Robert Moore do. He did Death Trap too, right?

[Adam Ilsbury]

Yes.

[Matt Koplik]

Yes. Because he has boys in the band. Promises, promises. Death Trap. Woman of the Year.

[Adam Ilsbury]

And then a couple Neil Simons, I think. Or a couple additional Neil Simon.

[Matt Koplik]

Okay, we're gonna. We're look this motherfucker up.

[Adam Ilsbury]

Great.

[Matt Koplik]

And people remember Robert Moore from our. Both our Promises, Promises episode and our Boys in the Band episode. My phone's not letting me tap his name. Here we Go.

[Adam Ilsbury]

Okay.

[Matt Koplik]

Robert Moore.

[Adam Ilsbury]

IBDB is a slow ass website.

[Matt Koplik]

It sure is. He was in these shows. Promises, Promises. Last of the Red Hot Lovers. That's our Neil Simon gingerbread lady. That's also Neil Simon. Right. Okay, Lorelei. Oh, Jesus.

[Adam Ilsbury]

That hit.

[Matt Koplik]

Yep. That's not about Lorelai Gilmore, everybody. My fat friend. Aww. They wrote a play about you. Death Trap.

[Adam Ilsbury]

It was before the Ozempic.

[Matt Koplik]

Ozempic. No, he didn't. He didn't do that. Women. His last two things were they're playing our song in Woman of the Year. Yeah. So he didn't have that many duds. And even his duds weren't like massive. They weren't Scott Elliot, barefoot in the.

[Adam Ilsbury]

Park, massive sidewalk turds.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah, exactly. They were like, oh, you tripped.

[Adam Ilsbury]

Oh, honey, it tripped.

[Matt Koplik]

Exactly. Now, I don't know who directed that. Women. But yeah. So we have our three versions of the Women, and the last two are not successful. And I think a lot of it is that the play just isn't as good as the movie.

[Adam Ilsbury]

Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

And we all. And we don't have a lot of people with the sensibility to make it happen. In Ben Bradley's review, he said that when it was announced that Roundabout was going to do the Women, directed by Scott Elliott, supposedly he had letters written by all of New York City drag queens being like, cast us. This is who should be doing the show. Yeah.

[Adam Ilsbury]

And because Charles Bush should be in the Women.

[Matt Koplik]

Well, well, tired old queen of the movies informed me of something via his episode of the Women. Okay. And it's Steve Hayes, not Haynes. I'm corrected. Steve Hayes informed us that there was a performance of the women done by all, mostly men. He said it was a town hall. I finally looked it up. It was somewhere in the Village in the early 90s. Charles Bush was Mary Great. Lipsynca was Crystal.

[Adam Ilsbury]

Okay. Correct.

[Matt Koplik]

Coco Peru, I believe, was Miriam.

[Adam Ilsbury]

Okay.

[Matt Koplik]

Lisa Krone was Sylvia. Oh, I know. Weird. I know. And Steve Hayes was the Countess. Okay. Doing his imitation of the woman for the movie. Yeah. And you can watch two clips of it on YouTube. YouTube.

[Adam Ilsbury]

Oh, I can't wait to watch it.

[Matt Koplik]

They're like seven years old and they have like 20 views. That's great. Yeah. But it's. It's one is of the final scene and one I don't remember the other one is. But it's clear that they're pretty much doing the play with a couple of touches from the movie because they.

[Adam Ilsbury]

And there's just some lines you have to keep. Well, they don't.

[Matt Koplik]

They don't have the kennel line. They.

[Adam Ilsbury]

Which is a shame.

[Matt Koplik]

It is a shame. But they end it the way the movie ends, with Charles Busch looking at him being like, Stephen. Yes. Because it's great. Because Charles also gets. Charles gets a massive laugh on the. Like, you can have my leftovers. I'll take them. Thank you. Just. Everyone just loving it. But that is it now. Like, it's. Yeah, it's. You need people or. So I talked about this. My Death Becomes her episode about how, like, Megan Hilty is a phenomenally gifted and intelligent comedic actress, but Jennifer Simard.

[Adam Ilsbury]

Is a. Oh, yeah, she is.

[Matt Koplik]

And if you want any proof, listen to her and Patrick Hines on the Golden Girls Rewatch podcast.

[Adam Ilsbury]

I still need to start that, but I'm very excited.

[Matt Koplik]

Oh, it's. If anything ever was your junk, it's that junk.

[Adam Ilsbury]

I also just. Quick side note. The four songs that they've released for Death Becomes her. You and I both have the same favorite song of those four. Yes.

[Matt Koplik]

And we talk about.

[Adam Ilsbury]

Tell Me Ernest. Yes.

[Matt Koplik]

And I've talked about how you and I have that line that we can hear in Julia Madison's voice. Oh, yeah. The roms, the comms, the rom coms, the tongue dramas, the drama tease. But the.

[Adam Ilsbury]

But I really love at the beginning of Alive Forever when you just get. It's basically Jennifer Simard asmr, where she's like, oh, God, oh, no, I'd like you to stop. Where she's like, barely talking. But man, is she a homo.

[Matt Koplik]

She's a total homo. But so what I mean is that there are. You listen to her on the Golden Girls podcast and the way she can just do Rue Mcclana.

[Adam Ilsbury]

I would love to watch Jennifer Simard and the women.

[Matt Koplik]

This is what I'm getting at.

[Adam Ilsbury]

Great.

[Matt Koplik]

Even Megan Hilty and the women, too. But like, sure, sure, sure. But like the way that Jen Samar just does her. Get out of here. Like, she could just drop into it like a. This is a woman who has studied every ounce of Rue McClanahan with, like, every gay of the West Village. And it's just in her DNA.

[Adam Ilsbury]

Also, take note because we've never had a successful Rue McClanahan on Snatch Game. And it's not. It shouldn't be that hard.

[Matt Koplik]

It shouldn't be that hard. You. Because the whole thing about Snatch Game is when you're playing a real person, most of the time you're just doing their most famous character. But you're not saying that because copyright. You can't.

[Adam Ilsbury]

Right.

[Matt Koplik]

So, yeah, you just Do Blanche.

[Adam Ilsbury]

And no one ever plays her as horny.

[Matt Koplik]

No.

[Adam Ilsbury]

And it's like, why not? She should be feeling it all the time.

[Matt Koplik]

And again, if fucking Kennedy is doing Richard and doing, doing. Shut up. Like, if you're doing room McClannon, you just do. Get out of here. Get out of here. Or you're like, I'm just so petite, but so Alaska.

[Adam Ilsbury]

Does a good room Clanahan.

[Matt Koplik]

Of course she does. But so Jen, with that, like, you need people with that mentality who can deconstruct every iota of golden girls of dynasty, of the women of his Girl Friday who have. And you need a director who has that energy, who has that rapport, who can make that happen. Like, this actually might be the play we get to entice Casey Nicholaw back to plays. Mmm.

[Adam Ilsbury]

That could be good.

[Matt Koplik]

Really? I beg to differ with you. How do you mean? You're the top. Yeah. You're an arrow collar. You're the top. You're a Coolidge dollar. You're the nimble tread of the feet of Fred Est. Like imagine, and with the respect of the Anita Luce and Claire Boothe Luces of their estates, finding a way to mesh the two together of the screenplay and the stage play, and getting the Beth Levels, the Jennifer Simards, the Alaska Thunderfucks, the Jinx Monsoons, to do it together. I'm sorry, you would sell that shit out. Out.

[Adam Ilsbury]

Oh, absolutely.

[Matt Koplik]

Yes.

[Adam Ilsbury]

Or just do it as a fundraiser at least.

[Matt Koplik]

Absolutely. With, you know, designs by Gregory Barnes by way of Donna Karan.

[Adam Ilsbury]

Oh, my God.

[Matt Koplik]

Have Gregory Barnes go through all of Donna Karan's wardrobe, take some Polaroids, and then be like, okay, now what if I added rhinestones and cocaine to all of it? Correct. And that's what we have with the women. But otherwise, I just don't see us doing this again because. And somebody asked. I say this because on the Discord, someone was like, the legacy of the show and the combination with that with drag queens, maybe. Is there something there? And there is. It should be.

[Adam Ilsbury]

I think that's the only way that you could do it. Just because of. I think to have women play these roles anymore, it just kind of feels demoralizing in a lot of ways. But to have a drag quite queen do it, I think you'll just feel it would. It would feel. It feels more like a drag show.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah.

[Adam Ilsbury]

Where it's like lovingly parodying this time period and these. And these women from this time period as opposed to. I don't know. I think it would just come Off a little sad now.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah. Don't think of it as a play with something to say, because the truth is that it doesn't and it never really did. Claire Booth. L thought she had something to say and it's more how she said it that we enjoyed and not the message itself. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. The movie has its cake and eats it too, far more so than the play does. So if we can incorporate more of the movie stuff in there and that sensibility and dial it up to 11, I think that's how we get our women back.

[Adam Ilsbury]

The movie also eliminates a lot of. So in the play, the way that it's constructed, there are a lot of scenes that we will start and. Or end with a group of some of who I would essentially call the ensemble of the cast. Like the smaller roled women who.

[Matt Koplik]

Beyond importance.

[Adam Ilsbury]

Yeah, yeah, well, sure. But of the ensemble of doubling in different roles where it will come in with them playing servants or counter people or, you know, people who are on the outside commenting on the characters that you're seeing.

[Matt Koplik]

The working class.

[Adam Ilsbury]

The working class characters. And they kept some of that in the movie. They did keep the scene between the. Between the maid.

[Matt Koplik]

The maid and the cook.

[Adam Ilsbury]

The maid and the cook where they.

[Matt Koplik]

Well, and that's. It's. First of all, it's a clever way to get scene. It's a clever way to get Mary and Stevens fight without having to see Stephen. Because it's them. It's them reiterating what has just happened.

[Adam Ilsbury]

And it's a great scene. It's a great two person scene also.

[Matt Koplik]

Well, because it's also their perspective on it. But the movie also talks about in that scene, the play doesn't do this of the cook saying if they get divorced, we could be out of jobs. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Adam Ilsbury]

But, yeah, I don't know, the movie's just better.

[Matt Koplik]

No, the movie is better. And it cuts a lot of the fat and the play has a lot more sexual innuendo and things like that. Like there's a. The final scene is at that nightclub which is where all hell breaks loose, but it's all in the women's powder room. And one of the things we see is a mother and her daughter who I guess, like, has just come out as a debutante and the daughter's like, being a little loose for her mother's liking. And she was like, you know, you were under the table with that boy.

[Adam Ilsbury]

Oh, yeah. This is. You're supposed to be. You're coming out. Not you. Not. Not you. What Is it.

[Matt Koplik]

It's the line somewhere. It doesn't matter. It's a good line. It's not a great line. Yeah, but.

[Adam Ilsbury]

It'S.

[Matt Koplik]

Oh, there's also the, like, two women talking about their men and one's like, he says he has to get back to his family. I said, why? Because they expect me every Easter. And I said, what do they expect you to do? Lay an egg dancing like that? What can those boys think of you? Oh, Mother, guzzling champagne like that after all I spent on your education. Oh, Mother. It's one thing to come out. It's quite another to go under the table. Right? That's one to which I say, I'm sorry. Let that diva be diva, okay? If she wants to get on her knees or on her back taking the old inn out for hours on end, I say a woman has a right to choose whichever hole, whichever position. I say diva. Go off. Pop off, sis.

[Adam Ilsbury]

Any hole is a goal.

[Matt Koplik]

Any hole is a goal. If there's one thing we learned from Natalie Walker in the Big Gay Jamboree, it's the women have the right to be sloots as long as they're thin, blonde, and sound like Marilyn Monroe.

[Adam Ilsbury]

Didn't see it, but I heard she was great.

[Matt Koplik]

She's the best thing in it for sure. And don't take my word for it, somebody on Broadway World said that exact thing today. Oh, good. Yes. So you know it's true. It's true.

[Adam Ilsbury]

Nothing but facts on that website.

[Matt Koplik]

Oh, absolutely. Listen, I should say now, speaking of gossip and get and facts and even saying how we don't like to jump the gun with our tea on this podcast. Yes, I'm aware that when Podmother and I, Ali Gordon, recorded the Passion episode, I said that Skyler Astin was going to be the next Gatsby. And of course, like, two days later, Ryan McCarten was announced to be the next Gatsby. At the time.

[Adam Ilsbury]

Oh, is he? I didn't. I missed that announcement somehow. I don't know.

[Matt Koplik]

Well, I have listeners who are very happy to hear you say that, but. So I have no opinion about it either way. I just have listeners on the Discord Channel who are anti him. I'm not sure why, but at the time that we recorded it, I had heard from four different sources that it was gonna be Skyler.

[Adam Ilsbury]

I think you told me. I think you had mentioned it to me also.

[Matt Koplik]

Well, what you just said is very much a woman thing of not a woman. The women where Edith says something and Sylvia's like, Who told you that? You did. Yeah, but so, no, I had been told by four different people that it was gonna be Sky. Skyler, and then Ryan happens. Those are the same people who told me that Jeremy was going to be Floyd Collins, so it seemed reputable. I have a feeling Skyler was approached. Skyler might have even said a soft yes, and then that thing got signed. That happens all the time. And if anything, it's a perfect example of why we try not to go to, like, Fort Broke with our tea on this podcast. Because things change all the goddamn time. That's correct. Listen, Anything Goes was supposed to be Sher Renee Scott before it was Sutton Foster.

[Adam Ilsbury]

It was.

[Matt Koplik]

And yet, did we say anything about it publicly? No. Wasn't it going to even be Megan Mulally before Sherry or like, that was who they wanted?

[Adam Ilsbury]

I think that might have been. Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah.

[Adam Ilsbury]

I think she was brought up. Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

But, like, again, like, this is what we're dealing with, y'. All. Before Kelly o' Hara was in South Pacific, she was up against Celie Keenan Bulger and Victoria Clark. Clark and possibly even Reese Witherspoon. Although that might have been a rumor.

[Adam Ilsbury]

I would have. Oh, no, it was Scarlett Johansson.

[Matt Koplik]

Scarlett Johansson, yeah.

[Adam Ilsbury]

Yeah, she was. I think she was even rumored for it initially. Like, there was a whole. I feel like they might have even announced that she was going to do it.

[Matt Koplik]

They didn't announce she was gonna do it. I think they. And I think it was leaked that she had auditioned because everyone thought that it was down to Kelly and. And ScarJo. And I think it got. It was revealed in maybe Celia's podcast or maybe Vicki said it somewhere that, like, Vicky, Celia and Kelly were actually like, the final three Nellies.

[Adam Ilsbury]

That is hilarious.

[Matt Koplik]

It just goes to show that Bart Sher has a really open mind when it comes to casting. Yeah, he thinks outside the box. He doesn't go beyond his immediate Rolodex.

[Adam Ilsbury]

He'll cast Margaret Johnson, Franke, whatever her last name is. Is she also a. No, I guess they're married. Franca Nacarelli and an ex Clara.

[Matt Koplik]

Well, you know, he goes, funny Girl. Who should I cast in Funny Girl? Who was that redhead I had in Awaken? Sing her. And then when Funny Girl doesn't happen, he's like My Fair Lady. Who should I cast? Who was that redhead I was gonna. Happy Fanny Brice. Her Braille chair's Rolodex is very small and indeed yes. Although I don't think he has any repeats in Floyd Collins, so that's nice. No, I lied. Taylor Trench from Tequila Mockingbird. Sure, sure, sure. Yeah. Always. There's always a minor little repeat.

[Adam Ilsbury]

Always one. Hold up.

[Matt Koplik]

There's, there's always a lunch that goes unswallowed in a bar lunch chair. Casting.

[Adam Ilsbury]

Wait, what? Who did Taylor Trench play? And he was the. He replaced.

[Matt Koplik]

He replaced.

[Adam Ilsbury]

He replaced Gideon. That's right.

[Matt Koplik]

That's right. That's right.

[Adam Ilsbury]

I didn't, I did not see the replacements.

[Matt Koplik]

That's why I. Neither did. Neither did I. But here we are. Okay. The women. Final thoughts.

[Adam Ilsbury]

Love Pink. No.

[Matt Koplik]

Jungle Red, baby.

[Adam Ilsbury]

Jungle red. I think that the movie is still a blast to watch. I do highly recommend it. Like, it's, yeah, it's, I don't, I don't think it needs to be revived. I, I would go watch a drag queen production of it for sure. A truncated drag queen production of it. Maybe like just a little bit of snipping. It's a long play.

[Matt Koplik]

It's a long play. Well, I think it felt long in that revival, too.

[Adam Ilsbury]

I think. Yeah. I think that might be my biggest problem with it, is that it just, it feels like it's treading back on familiar territory over and over again. Like things start to feel a little repetitive with her finding out information about Steven and then him calling and her seeming upset about it.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah.

[Adam Ilsbury]

It just, it all. I get that it's in the nature of the dramatic tension tightening as she continues to get blown off by her husband, but I don't know, it just feels a little drawn out to me.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah. Again, if you and I could sit down with Elaine, May be like, hey, Elaine, baby, here's the screenplay. Here's the OG Script. Let us go through and do some stuff. Let's have them make a baby. Exactly. Let's have them make a lovely little baby. A little paper baby. And if you have any nuggets you want to drop in there, I wouldn't say no to an Elaine May bonbon, please. Yeah. And then we serve it with the drag queens and the female fags and we say, can we serve this on toast? And Jennifer Smart's like, I'll take three months off if death becomes you, I've got nothing better to do.

[Adam Ilsbury]

That's right.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Adam Ilsbury]

No, I would say that the movie is worth it for the casting that sort of made it a new property. And I don't know if I have anything else to add. I, I, I, I like the movie.

[Matt Koplik]

It's, it's objectively a good movie. There, listen. Is it perfect? No, there's that, like 10000 minute long fashion sequence in Technicolor for no reason.

[Adam Ilsbury]

Oh yeah. Everybody. Wizard of Oz was not the only movie to go from black and white to Technicolor for a part of the film.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah.

[Adam Ilsbury]

There are in 39.

[Matt Koplik]

I know. I know. It was wild. Was not a lot alone.

[Adam Ilsbury]

Although we got full color with Gone with the Wind start to finish.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah. We had movies in Technicolor before those movies anyway. True. Yeah. We. We're not here.

[Adam Ilsbury]

Those are just the most famous.

[Matt Koplik]

Yes.

[Adam Ilsbury]

Intros.

[Matt Koplik]

39 was a good year. Yeah. I feel the same way. I don't know why otherwise why we would need to do this play again on Broadway. Cynthia Nixon talked about how the place has a lot more to say than the movie does. To which I say. Cynthia. You only say that because you were in the woods with it.

[Adam Ilsbury]

Oh. You were going to talk really quick before we wrap up. What were you going to say about Jason Alexander? Are you going to say anything?

[Matt Koplik]

No. The Discord wanted us to talk about it just like of his interview which is just like.

[Adam Ilsbury]

I mean it's just sort of cringy. I don't have much to say about it really. Just watch it. It's. It's a. It's in the video. If you watch. If you. If you search the women. Broadway great performances. It's. It's. It's in the act break.

[Matt Koplik]

It's. Well yes. It's. It's the act break. And it's Jason interviewing Jennifer Tilly. Cynthia Nixon. Mary Louise Wilson. Jennifer Coolidge. Is that it? I think that it's those four.

[Adam Ilsbury]

No. Kristen Johnson's in it too.

[Matt Koplik]

Yes. Kristen Johnston. But those are the ones. And they talk about. And they talk about the child actress and they talk about the place themes and they talk about the movie and all that stuff. They talk about the Iceman costumes. And Jason's like trying to be a gregarious host. But it. And he. It's just clear that there's a couple of times he steps in shit. And it's not like offensive shit. Like. No. Like these women are too tough for them to like be butthurt about it. They're just sort of like this man.

[Adam Ilsbury]

This guy over here.

[Matt Koplik]

And he just says a couple things where you're just like Jason, shut the fuck up. The only time where they actually kind of just like. We can't let that be. The last thing said is when he talks about the infidelity complex of the place play. Because the whole point of Stephen that Mary's mother tells her Is like, stephen cheating on you has nothing to do with you. It has nothing to do with, like, love. Like, he's a man. He's getting older, and he's like, you know, he's feeling his mortality, and he's feeling not special or young anymore. And when we feel that way, we hire new help or we decorate the kitchen, which is, like. It's a very regressive way to think about it, but it's not totally untrue for some people. And she's like, for men, what they can do is like. Like, they. What she. What does the mom say? She says, like, they can't stand to look at their reflection anymore, so they look for a new reflection in the eyes of a different woman. Yep. It's something like that. Did the.

[Adam Ilsbury]

Did the term midlife crisis exist at this point?

[Matt Koplik]

I don't believe so.

[Adam Ilsbury]

I don't think it did, because otherwise, mom would just be like, honey, he's having a midlife crisis. Exactly. And instead, we have to explain all of these things, which I think now people understand a lot better.

[Matt Koplik]

Yes.

[Adam Ilsbury]

Using that phrase.

[Matt Koplik]

That's shorthand here. Yes, the midlife crisis sports car. But. Yeah. But that's essentially what her mom tells her. He's having a midlife crisis, and it has nothing to do with you. And so when talking about that in the interview with all the ladies, Jason Alexander refers to infidelity. That, like, I guess he was talking to his wife about it or, like, you know, sticking through it anyway, and choosing to call it an accident, like a friend wants to. Would prefer to call, like, cheating an accident. I had an accident. Right. And. And everyone has been very polite and, like, having. Trying to have a meaningful conversation about what is ultimately a thin play. And this is the moment where, like, I think Jennifer Tilly is the one who sort of breaks the tension with it. And she isn't like, shut the fuck up, but she's more sort of like, yeah, no. And then, like, Jennifer Coolidge piles on. She's like, I don't like that idea. Like, oops, they had an accident. Like, no, you did it. You did what you did. You made a choice. And everyone's just sort of like, yeah, Jason. No, no, no.

[Adam Ilsbury]

This interview is over, everybody. Good night.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah. We have an Act 2 to get to. And, Jason, you want to. Speaking of rugs, you want to put that new rug on your head. And the thing is, he's a. From what I understand, he's a very nice man, and he's clearly a smart dude. It's one of those things where, like, he's trying. It's an impossible task. You're interviewing six accomplished, intelligent actresses in a play called the Women. And you are a man.

[Adam Ilsbury]

Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

Interviewing them. And you're not even a gay man. So he's just sitting there being like, how do I act? Like the ally. It's like Paul Schaefer on all of his podcasts, where he's like, I want you to understand that I'm one of the good white men.

[Adam Ilsbury]

Right, Exactly.

[Matt Koplik]

It's like, there's no such thing. Just, like, understand and know. You're gonna step in shit and let them talk. Yeah. As they should. Yeah. I think that's the tagline for the women. Let them talk as they should. That's it. Yeah. You're in marketing. You know how to do that. Make that happen.

[Adam Ilsbury]

I don't write taglines.

[Matt Koplik]

I wrote the tagline. Now you make the art. Okay. Okay. Adam, where can people find you if you want them to find you?

[Adam Ilsbury]

On the soches or really, the. The only social media I'm on is Instagram, and you can just search me.

[Matt Koplik]

With my name if you want to find me. I'm on Instagram only. Attcoplek. Usual spelling. If you like the podcast, give us a nice 5 star rating or review. It always helps with the algorithm. We. We haven't gotten any new Reviews since the 5 review Palooza with the Wicked episode. So a new one would be great to have.

[Adam Ilsbury]

I really hope you get another review where somebody tells you all the awful things you're doing wrong and then asks to come onto the and be a guest with you. I really want that to happen again because that went over so well.

[Matt Koplik]

Guys, here's the twist. It was Adam.

[Adam Ilsbury]

It was me. Can you imagine?

[Matt Koplik]

Honestly, I'm more likely to get another review that's like. And you're still talking.

[Adam Ilsbury]

Oh, my God.

[Matt Koplik]

Listen, it's fine, people. If people want to use their time to write that, they can. And I will read it out loud. I read. I read every single review. The five stars and the two stars. All of them. But yeah, write them. Write. Please write them. We like to have them. We would. We. We would prefer five stars, but write what you want to write. Adam.

[Adam Ilsbury]

Yes?

[Matt Koplik]

Who do we close out with today?

[Adam Ilsbury]

Oh, I hadn't even thought about that part.

[Matt Koplik]

I had it. Why Roxy? Brand new. Wait.

[Adam Ilsbury]

Because it's a play. Let's see. Oh, do Rosalind Russell. Do like, Wonderful Town or something.

[Matt Koplik]

Okay. I was gonna say we're gonna do her. Gypsy. I had a dream.

[Adam Ilsbury]

No, do one where she's actually singing. Do, like conga or. Or. Or swing or something.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah, we'll do Rosalind Ruslan in Wonderful Town. I always forget she did that. Oh, gee, I know she's the og but when we hear. Think of Rosalind Russell singing, we. We associate it with Gypsy and the dumpster fire of that. But no, she was legitimately in a Broadway musical and won a Tony for it. So, yeah, Roslyn Russell, which you can.

[Adam Ilsbury]

Watch on YouTube, by the way. They filmed it for television. They did a TV version of it, and it's great.

[Matt Koplik]

It's great. She's a fucking charismatic bitch, like out the wazoo. All right. Yes. So we'll close out with Roslyn. Join us for the next episode, which is either going to be nine or come from away. One of the two. One of the two. We'll find out then. All right, take it away, Roz. Bye. Swing dig the rhythm. Swing, dig the message. The jive is jumping and the music goes round and around. Wahoo. Dig. Hair goes running around. Cats make it solid, Cats make it groovy. You gotta get your seafood, mama. Your favorite dish is fish. It's your favorite dish. Don't be square. Rock right out of that rockin chair truck on down and let down your hair. Breathe some barrel house air.