Broadway Breakdown: “THE WOMEN” w/ Adam Elsberry
Episode Date: December 12, 2024
Host: Matt Koplik
Guest: Adam Elsberry
Key Theme: A deep-dive into Claire Boothe Luce’s iconic 1936 play The Women—its biting wit, social commentary, queer legacy, Broadway and film adaptations, and why, for all its iconic lines and unforgettable characters, it’s still kind of a trash fire.
Overview
Matt Koplik and regular guest “gunkle of the pod” Adam Elsberry tackle Claire Boothe Luce’s all-female 1936 play The Women, dissecting its plot, characters, biting humor, and problematic legacy. They contrast the play with the more widely-loved 1939 Hollywood film, detail the 2001 Roundabout Broadway revival, discuss drag interpretations, and muse on why queer audiences (and theater queens) have latched onto its bitchy entertainment. Expect deep analysis, four-letter words, and gay canon realness.
Main Discussion Points & Insights
1. What Is The Women?
- Premise: The play centers on Mary Haynes, a New York socialite whose husband cheats with a shopgirl, Crystal Allen, and the ripple effects this has among a circle of “frenemies.” All roles—onstage and off—are female. The men are only ever talked about, never seen.
- Adam: “Since nobody ever really fully gets along with anybody in this show, but it ultimately focuses on Mary Haynes, who finds out she’s being cheated on by her husband with a shop girl named Crystal Allen.” [05:13]
- Matt: “We cover plays on this goddamn podcast.” [03:52]
2. The Play’s Tone & Legacy
- Satire meets Cynicism: The play satirizes high society women, but its actual message is surprisingly conservative and regressive: “At the heart of it, it’s like, you’re a woman, be a wife.” [07:03]
- Adam: “It’s a bitchy entertainment.” [07:17]
- Gay Canon: The film adaptation’s enduring legacy—a “gay canon” staple thanks to its quotable script, biting wit, and pure camp.
- “It was sort of like gay canon. Just because it was so quotable and bitchy and cunty...” [08:46]
3. The 1939 Movie vs. The Play
- Greater Legacy: The film (Crawford, Shearer, Russell, Goddard) is better known and beloved than the original play.
- Movie’s Strengths:
- Hays Code: Forces the script to punish its characters’ “sins” but brings closure and sharper plotting.
- Iconic lines: Many of the play’s most bitchy, legendary bits are movie inventions or expansions (by Anita Loos).
- Matt: “The movie is what people remember. The movie is what most people quote.” [08:33]
4. Claire Boothe Luce: Contradiction in Terms
- A Trailblazer—And a Conservative
- Accomplished journalist, playwright, open marriage, ambassador, sexually liberated, yet deeply conservative in her ideology about women.
- Matt: “For all that, she was very much like, women just really want to get married and have babies. And I think that’s what they should be doing.” [27:02]
- The play, beloved in feminist and queer circles, is steeped in a “wife first” worldview.
5. Plot Structure & Character Dynamics
“The Big Four”
- Mary Haynes: The wealthy, naive protagonist.
- Sylvia Fowler: Mary’s best “frenemy”—cunning, two-faced, and the instigator who exposes Mary to the truth about her husband’s affair.
- Crystal Allen: The ambitious shopgirl “other woman”; written to be unapologetically predatory and detested, yet still a showstopper.
- Edith & Peggy: Secondary friends, representing different angles of marital trouble and societal pressure.
Key Character Insights
- Mary: “In the play, she’s just getting tossed around like a rag doll by everybody because she thinks that everything is fine. She takes everything at face value.” [40:20]
- Crystal: “Crystal in the play is actually even worse than Crystal in the movie.” [46:14] Mean, direct, and self-serving.
- Sylvia: The ultimate “vindictive cunt”—the template for every evil sidekick and “housewife” to come.
- “Sylvia is someone who would tell you she wrote a play. She wrote five plays.” [40:07]
Gossip as Blood Sport
- “It’s all gossip. And every scene is centered around some type of gossip that reveals some kind of information to propel things forward.” [06:55]
6. Notable Comparisons, Quotes & Legacy
Birth of “Bitchy Comedy”
- Adam: “This is probably the birth of bitchy comedy. For sure.” [09:25]
- Movie lines that live forever:
- “There’s a name for you ladies, but it’s not used in high society… outside of a kennel.” (Joan Crawford, 53:54)
- “Thanks for the tip, but if anything I wear doesn’t please Steven, I take it off.” (Joan Crawford, 48:44)
- Queer Appeal: The style, the wit, the “everyone’s a bitch” vibe—The Women directly inspires drag, gay camp, and everything from Valley of the Dolls to Dynasty.
The Bechdel Irony
- Matt: “It is not a Bechdel test play.” [20:16]
- Women never appear with men, and yet talk about nothing but men—satirizing but reinforcing their social roles.
7. Broadway & Stage History
Productions:
- Original (1936): Smash hit—666 performances.
- 1970s Revival (1972/74): Short run; little impact.
- Roundabout Revival (2001): Cynthia Nixon, Jennifer Tilly, Kristen Johnston, Jennifer Coolidge, Mary Louise Wilson, Rue McClanahan.
- Mixed/poor reviews. Matt: “It was not well received. No one really talks about it much. You can watch the whole thing on YouTube.” [107:08]
- Key Moments:
- Jennifer Coolidge steals scenes as Edith (“Edith has an addiction to popping out cum nuggets.” [62:55]).
- A bizarre attempt at social commentary—Julie Halston, mud mask, and a black attendant (a sideways blackface joke) [104:29].
- Slow pacing and stilted staging: “The direction was just really draggy… at 1.5 speed, it felt more like the tempo of the film.” [111:16]
8. The Drag Queen & Queer Legacy
- Ideal Format: Many believe only a cast of drag queens or campy gay men can do The Women justice today.
- “That is it now… you need people... with the sensibility to make it happen.” [117:16]
- Legendary NYC drag/artists like Charles Busch and Lippsinka have performed it.
- Matt: “I would love to watch Jennifer Simard in The Women.” [118:53]
- Adam: “I think that's the only way you could do it—just… feels demoralizing [with women]. But with drag, it would feel lovingly parodying.” [122:01]
9. Broader Cultural Impact
- Influenced generational comedy and TV: From Golden Girls to Sex and the City to Housewives and “real-life” dynasties.
- Matt: “The women is really the grandmama of all of the divas being assholes that we love.” [71:58]
- Why do we love watching bitches?: “Who doesn’t want to look like a million dollars and say the exact right thing at the exact right moment and be able to walk away leaving everyone speechless?” [73:15]
Notable Quotes & Moments
- Matt (on Claire Boothe Luce’s hypocrisy): “She was liberated… But for all that, she was very much like, women just really want to get married and have babies. And I think that’s what they should be doing.” [27:02]
- Adam (on Broadway slow-downs): “If a play is just not landing, it is… But yeah, but when those songs and those rhythms are Paradise Square, is it really worth it?” [108:16]
- On the Women’s enduring appeal:
“I don’t think it needs to be revived. I would go watch a drag queen production for sure… I think it would just come off a little sad now.” [129:36, 122:01]
Timestamps for Key Segments
- Who they're talking about: [05:02] – Adam explains the plot; [40:20] – Mary as naive protagonist; [46:14] – Crystal’s cruelty.
- On the play vs. movie: [09:47] – Movie offers closure via Hays Code; [47:33] – Adding sharp lines.
- On Claire Boothe Luce: [24:01] – Not southern, contrary to Flying Over Sunset; [27:02] – Contradictory queen.
- Mary and her friends: [40:20-51:29] – Detailed breakdowns of Mary, Crystal, Sylvia, Edith, Peggy, Nancy, et al.
- Sylvia as the ultimate backstabber: [67:03-77:29] – Her role, motivation, and dynamic with the group.
- Reno plot & climactic catfight: [84:30-87:14] – Miriam’s affair with Sylvia’s husband; drag-out battle; bitchery at its best.
- 2001 Roundabout Revival: [99:33-111:56] – Casting, tepid reception, odd directorial choices.
- Drag queen/queer legacy: [115:51-122:38] – Why it works best en drag.
Final Thoughts and Verdict
- The play is memorable for its lines, characters, and “bitchy entertainment,” but it simply can’t compare to the film adaptation for sharpness, closure, and pacing.
- Quote (Matt): “Think of it not as a play with something to say, because the truth is that it doesn’t and it never really did.” [122:13]
- And, in the age of drag femme worship: “If we can incorporate more of the movie stuff in there, and that sensibility, and dial it up to 11, I think that’s how we get our women back.” [122:13]
Recommendations
- Watch the 1939 movie. The play’s a slog, but the film is a classic of gay camp, snappy dialogue, and “bitchy” brilliance.
- Skip the Roundabout revival, but catch Jennifer Coolidge’s best bits.
- Catch a drag staging if you ever can. Some things, only a queen can do justice.
Episode Closer
The pod closes with the customary showtune (Rosalind Russell from Wonderful Town) and classic podcast banter.
Matt: “I don’t know why otherwise why we would need to do this play again on Broadway... Cynthia Nixon talked about how the place has a lot more to say than the movie does. To which I say, Cynthia, you only say that because you were in the woods with it.”
For more Broadway breakdowns and spicy theater talk:
https://bwaybreakdown.substack.com?utm_medium=podcast
The Women—where everyone’s a bitch, but only half of them know it.