THE WOMEN w/ Adam Elsberry

Summary

Broadway Breakdown: Episode Summary – "THE WOMEN with Adam Elsberry"

Release Date: December 12, 2024

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Introduction

In this episode of Broadway Breakdown, host Matt Koplik delves into the intricate world of Claire Booth Luce's classic play, The Women. Joined by returning guest Adam Elsberry, Matt navigates through the play's history, its cinematic adaptation, and various Broadway revivals. Their candid and spirited discussion uncovers the layers of character development, directorial choices, and the enduring legacy of this seminal work in American theater.

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Episode Overview

The Women is a cornerstone of American drama, first staged in 1936 and later adapted into a highly acclaimed film. The play offers a satirical glimpse into the lives of affluent New York socialites, exploring themes of friendship, rivalry, and marital strife. Matt Koplik and Adam Elsberry dissect how different productions and adaptations have interpreted these themes over the decades.

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Key Discussions

1. Understanding The Women: Play vs. Movie

   Adam Elsberry opens the conversation by clarifying the essence of The Women:

   “[05:34] Cynthia Erivo: The Women is a play by Claire Booth Luce from 1936. It's about women, but what are they?”

   Matt and Adam explore the core narrative—focusing on Mary Haynes, who discovers her husband's affair with a shopgirl, Crystal Allen. They compare how the play emphasizes gossip and social maneuvering, while the movie adaptation offers a more polished and accessible storytelling approach.

2. Character Portrayals and Development

   The hosts delve into the nuances of key characters:

   • Mary Haynes: Described as the wealthiest and most secure among her friends, Mary grapples with her husband's infidelity, leading to a quest to reclaim her marriage.

     “[07:12] Ariana Grande: Wait, Crystal Allen?”

   • Crystal Allen: Portrayed as the cunning mistress, Crystal's manipulative nature is scrutinized, especially in how she controls her relationship with Steven and undermines Mary's life.

     “[08:18] Ariana Grande: Yeah, well, yes and no. She also spends a lot of time morally figuring out what's the right thing to do.”

   • Sylvia Fowler and Edith: The discussion highlights Sylvia as the toxic influence within the friend group, and Edith's role as a secondary character struggling with her own issues.

3. Differences Between Play and Film

   A significant portion of the episode contrasts the stage play with its film adaptation:

   • Narrative Structure: The movie provides a clearer resolution adhering to the Hays Code, ensuring that immoral actions are punished, thereby giving the storyline a more satisfying closure compared to the play's chaotic ending.

     “[11:00] Cynthia Erivo: Because of the Hays Code, a lot of sins that these characters do had to be punished in the end.”

   • Character Arcs: Mary’s transformation in the movie is more pronounced as she gains confidence and seeks to mend her marriage, whereas the play leaves her arc somewhat ambiguous.

     “[12:15] Cynthia Erivo: But we don't know for sure.”

4. Broadway Revivals and Their Reception

   The hosts examine various Broadway revivals, particularly the 2001 Roundabout Theater Company production:

   • Cast and Direction: Cynthia Nixon as Mary, Jennifer Tilly as Crystal, and Kristen Johnston as Sylvia are discussed, with particular emphasis on Scott Elliott's directorial choices that included edgy elements like blackface humor, which were controversial and received mixed reviews.

     “[14:18] Cynthia Erivo: And that was great.”

   • Critical Response: Despite a star-studded cast, the revival struggled due to its lackluster direction and failure to capture the original play's sharp wit, leading to its short Broadway run.

     “[19:06] Cynthia Erivo: Yeah, which would explain why Candice Bergen was in it.”

5. Cultural Impact and Legacy

   Matt and Adam reflect on the play's enduring presence in the queer community and its status as a "bitchy entertainment" that paved the way for modern high-society dramas and comedies like Sex and the City and reality shows like Real Housewives.

   “[10:34] Ariana Grande: There's a sort of. It's interesting to visit it and see really how much it influenced future comedy of that style.”

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Notable Quotes

• On Directorial Choices and Adaptations:

  “[03:43] Ariana Grande: And I will say, you and I both came into this being like, who knows who's going to listen to this?”

• On Character Complexity:

  “[12:59] Ariana Grande: And everyone has opinions and everyone is getting cheated on in some respect.”

• On the Play's Themes:

  “[08:46] Ariana Grande: And the play doesn't have a lot to say. It's mostly meant to sort of be a satire of high society ladies, but ultimately, at the heart of it, it's like, you're a woman, be a wife.”

• On Revival Failures:

  “[20:35] Cynthia Erivo: Just because of the Hays Code, a lot of sins that these characters do had to be punished in the end.”

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Conclusions and Insights

Matt Koplik and Adam Elsberry conclude that while The Women holds a significant place in theatrical history, its adaptations and revivals often miss the mark by either diluting the original's sharp satire or mishandling character development. They suggest that modern revivals could benefit from incorporating the film's strengths—clearly defined narratives and character arcs—while maintaining the play's inherent wit and social commentary.

Additionally, they touch upon the potential for innovative reinterpretations, such as drag performances, to breathe new life into the material by leveraging contemporary sensibilities and humor.

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Final Thoughts

This episode of Broadway Breakdown offers a comprehensive examination of The Women, providing listeners with a nuanced understanding of its intricate character dynamics and the challenges inherent in adapting stage plays for the screen. Matt Koplik and Adam Elsberry's passionate discussion underscores the play's relevance and prompts reflection on how classic works can be reimagined to resonate with modern audiences.

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Find More Episodes

Stay tuned to Broadway Breakdown for more in-depth analyses of Broadway's greatest plays and musicals. Whether you're a seasoned theatre enthusiast or a curious newcomer, Matt Koplik's unapologetic passion promises engaging and insightful explorations every week.

Remember to subscribe and leave a review to support the podcast!

Transcript

[Ariana Grande]

Hi, I'm Ariana Grande.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Hi, I'm Cynthia Erivo and you're listening.

[Ariana Grande]

To the Broadway podcast network. Visit BPN FM to discover more.

[Cynthia Erivo]

My dad works in B2B marketing. He came by my school for career day and said he was a big roas man. Then he told everyone how much he loved calculating his return on ad spend. My friends still laugh at me to this day.

[Ariana Grande]

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[Cynthia Erivo]

Except Denise Martinez. That bitch I cannot stand. Oh hey Denise.

[Ariana Grande]

Hey girl.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Females help. Like this girl here with the blotchy face.

[Ariana Grande]

She banged her best friend's boyfriend in.

[Cynthia Erivo]

The bathroom of a half price sushi plate.

[Ariana Grande]

What?

[Cynthia Erivo]

Oh, you didn't know? So let's all spread this message like cave let's spread disease cause the change is coming faster Then Ashley drops to.

[Ariana Grande]

Her knees Together we can clear these hurdles Except Marissa, our country's four foot eight.

[Cynthia Erivo]

We can climb every mountain if the.

[Ariana Grande]

Rope can support Haley's wet. Hello all you theater lovers both out and proud and on the DL. And welcome back to Broadway Breakdown, a podcast discussing the history und legacy of American theater's most exclusive address, Broadway. I'm your host, Matt Koplik. The least Famous and most opinionated of all the Broadway podcast hosts. And with us today is the gunkle of the Pod. You know him, some of you say you love him. I don't believe you, but we did miss him. Either way, please welcome back Adam Ilsbury.

[Cynthia Erivo]

He's back.

[Ariana Grande]

He's back. Adam, thank you so much for coming back.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Hi. Thanks for having me. It's been far too long. Partially my own fault.

[Ariana Grande]

Well, yes, you've been very busy.

[Cynthia Erivo]

I've been busy. I also, with conflict of interest with work, couldn't come in for some of the Tony Award episodes.

[Ariana Grande]

You can't come for the Tony episodes ever. Which is. Which is fine.

[Cynthia Erivo]

It's sad. I really wanted to talk about some of that stuff this year, too.

[Ariana Grande]

It's fine. I did just fine without you.

[Cynthia Erivo]

I know. I listened.

[Ariana Grande]

Oh, you're the one. But you are back now for a deep dive.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Yes, it's true.

[Ariana Grande]

And I will say, you and I both came into this being like, who knows who's going to listen to this? Who knows how long this episode is going to be, how short it's going to be? But if ever there was someone who I want for this play. When I picked it out of Sally bowl for Grab Bag. Oh, I forgot to say, this series is called Grab Bag and it's covering shows that you submitted. And I picked out of a bowl. There we go. That was part of the intro. I forgot.

[Cynthia Erivo]

What was the total number of submissions? Wasn't it like 300?

[Ariana Grande]

Over 400. Yeah, but, well. But like, it was. People submitted, I think like five. Yeah, you could send up to five.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Okay.

[Ariana Grande]

So some people did a total of five and some people did like three, but it was over 400. I want to say like 450 separate submissions. So that was like something's quadrupled. Or did like. We had 15 submissions for Great Comet, 15 for Angels in America. And yet we didn't pick out Great Comet. What we did pick out was the women.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Hey.

[Ariana Grande]

Hey. Which is what we're covering today.

[Cynthia Erivo]

That's right.

[Ariana Grande]

Yeah. Now, Adam, for the uncultured fucks, what is the women about?

[Cynthia Erivo]

Well, Matt, it's about women, but what are they? Wait, I have to tell it. Wait, I have to say something really quick. So a couple of days ago, I was just telling Matt this before we started recording, I was listening to his Passion episode that he recorded with Ali Gordon. And at one point in the episode, and you were always like, I never remember what I say, so don't come at me with quotes, because I won't Remember? But at one point, you were like, give me a dollar and I'll name you a woman. Do you remember saying that?

[Ariana Grande]

Yeah. Well, isn't that Billy Eichner? Yes, sir. For a dollar, name a woman.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Yeah, for a dollar, name a woman. And so for many dollars, we're naming all the women.

[Ariana Grande]

All of the women.

[Cynthia Erivo]

All the women. Yeah, the women. It's a play. It's a play, Matt. It's not a musical. It's a play.

[Ariana Grande]

We cover plays on this goddamn podcast.

[Cynthia Erivo]

I know you call me in for plays all the time.

[Ariana Grande]

Do I? Just this one.

[Cynthia Erivo]

I've done Noises Off. I've done Significant Other. Significant other.

[Ariana Grande]

And now this.

[Cynthia Erivo]

There was one other play, I think.

[Ariana Grande]

Anyway. No, I think that's it. Noises. Cause for Sondheim, you did Do I Hear a Waltz?

[Cynthia Erivo]

Yes.

[Ariana Grande]

For British Invasion, you did Noises Off. You did not do Tesori for.

[Cynthia Erivo]

No, I didn't.

[Ariana Grande]

For Underestimated. You did Sideshow. Oh, that's right. Which at the time, was our longest episode ever. Then you did Significant Other for the Big Move. Yep, yep, yep. And then. Did you.

[Cynthia Erivo]

The last one I think I did was a year ago. For Promises, promises, promises.

[Ariana Grande]

For problematic a.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Was that a year ago?

[Ariana Grande]

That was a year ago.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Holy crap.

[Ariana Grande]

I know.

[Cynthia Erivo]

She's back.

[Ariana Grande]

She's back. And the good news is that the last two times Adam was on, I did tear. I don't expect to tear during this one.

[Cynthia Erivo]

I don't think that'll happen today.

[Ariana Grande]

No, I mean, listen, there's. There's always connections to our lives, to shows and movies that we see. Even if it's like the longest of threads, but. But no. Who cries watching the women? Except for Cynthia Nixon.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Oh, man.

[Ariana Grande]

Yeah. Girlfriend loves to cry. What is the Women about, Adam?

[Cynthia Erivo]

The Women is a play by Claire Booth Luce from 1936. It's about a group of New York socialites who are. I'll say. Frenemies.

[Ariana Grande]

Yeah.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Since nobody really ever fully gets along with anybody in this show. But it ultimately focuses on Mary Haynes, who finds out that she's being treated. Cheated on by her husband with a shop girl named Crystal.

[Ariana Grande]

Wait, Crystal Allen?

[Cynthia Erivo]

Crystal Allen.

[Ariana Grande]

The scandal.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Crystal Allen.

[Ariana Grande]

It's not even one of her. It's a goddamn shop girl at Saks Black's in the movie.

[Cynthia Erivo]

That's right.

[Ariana Grande]

They couldn't get clearance for Sax Fifth.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Black's Fifth Avenue Flex.

[Ariana Grande]

Fifth Avenue.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Jesus.

[Ariana Grande]

The laziest train. But ultimately, she's a shop girl at Groomingdale's.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Groomingdale's, ladies and gentlemen. I'M going over to Kurgdorf and Budman. Sorry, Zergdorf.

[Ariana Grande]

It's like the 30 Rock episode where Chen is doing all the knockoff Prader.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Oh, my God.

[Ariana Grande]

Sorry. Continue. So, yes, Crystal Allen is the whore.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Crystal Allen is the whore who's fucking the married man. Yes. And basically, Mary spends the entire rest of the show trying to wrestle her husband back out of Crystal's hands.

[Ariana Grande]

Yeah, well, yes and no. She also, like, spends a lot of time morally figuring out what's the right thing to do.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Oh, yeah. I mean, I know we're gonna get into all of these.

[Ariana Grande]

We will.

[Cynthia Erivo]

We will. I'm broad stroking.

[Ariana Grande]

And everyone has opinions and everyone is getting cheated on in some respect. Like either someone's husband is cheating on them or they're cheating on their husband or friends are talking behind their back.

[Cynthia Erivo]

It's all gossip. And every scene is centered around some type of gossip that reveals some kind of information to propel things forward.

[Ariana Grande]

And the play doesn't have a lot to say. It's mostly meant to sort of be a satire of high society ladies, but ultimately, at the heart of it, it's like, you're a woman, be a wife.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Yeah. It's a bitchy entertainment.

[Ariana Grande]

Yes.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Yes.

[Ariana Grande]

So we asked on the Discord Channel what people, any topics, questions people had for it. And again, if you haven't joined the Discord yet, please do. And unsurprisingly, there weren't many submissions for this one. The play itself was a big ol Hit. A big tittied hit, as we like to say.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Yeah.

[Ariana Grande]

In 1936. Ran for almost two years and immediately made into a giant movie.

[Cynthia Erivo]

666 performances, according to the opening credits of the film.

[Ariana Grande]

Exactly. Which is like, for 1936. That was a big old run.

[Cynthia Erivo]

That's a lot.

[Ariana Grande]

Yeah, it was a big run. And, you know, made into a movie.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Unless you were like Tobacco Road.

[Ariana Grande]

Yeah, but who's Tobacco Road? Tobacco Road. Tobacco Road. But no, we're not going to keep going.

[Cynthia Erivo]

I'm not going to start singing. We're going.

[Ariana Grande]

We're going to keep going.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Keep going, Matt. Keep going.

[Ariana Grande]

We're keeping going. Made into a movie. Made into a movie with the likes of Joan Crawford, Norma Shearer, Rosalind Russell, Joan Fontaine, Paulette Goddard, Other people.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Other people.

[Ariana Grande]

Other people.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Other amazing people.

[Ariana Grande]

The kid's sister, Dinah Lord in Philadelphia Story. Lots. Lots of really awesome people. And the movie, I would argue, has the more beloved and longer legacy than the play. Yes. And there's the ease of the fact that it is A movie, you can share it, you know, in cinemas and put it on TV and all these other things. But the movie is what people remember. The movie is what most people quote.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Yes. Well. And it's kind of become, well, I guess less so nowadays, but for a while it was sort of like gay canon.

[Ariana Grande]

Yeah.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Just because it was so quotable and bitchy and cunty and.

[Ariana Grande]

Yeah. Before the Golden Girls, before Dynasty, it.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Was this I was gonna talk about at some point. There's sort of. It's interesting to visit it and see really how much it influenced future comedy of that style. Cause was there much before then?

[Ariana Grande]

Of what?

[Cynthia Erivo]

Of comedy. That was that like just that was that biting, especially of. Of women speaking to each other like that.

[Ariana Grande]

I think this is probably the birth of bitchy comedy. For sure. There's. There's no Coward, which I guess you could say, but that's a little more dry. It's not as acerbic and it's lighter. Yeah. It's not as mean spirited. Everyone's just silly.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Yeah. Yeah. I mean, yeah, the women, if anything, is really cynical.

[Ariana Grande]

Yeah. Very, very cynical. And the movie, I think, gets away with it more because ultimately, because of the Hays Code, a lot of sins that these characters do had to be punished in the end. That was the whole point of the Hays Code. And so there's. The movie has a sense of closure and conclusion at the end that the play doesn't.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Yes.

[Ariana Grande]

So it just feels more fulfilling in the movie, even if you're like, oh, we didn't have to go that hard on that person. It's more like, okay, this just now finally feels like a wrapped up storyline. Whereas in the play it all. We'll get to it. But the last 15 minutes of the play feel very jumbled and rushed.

[Cynthia Erivo]

It's just sort of chaos. And the curtain goes down on chaos.

[Ariana Grande]

Exactly. With Mary kind of winning in the end, but in a weird way.

[Cynthia Erivo]

But we don't know for sure.

[Ariana Grande]

Yeah. Cause also. So how did the women enter your chat, Adam?

[Cynthia Erivo]

God, I think the first. I remember. I don't know if I even watched it at all. I remember the first time I was aware of it was when. It was when Roundabout revived it in 2000. 2001. 2001. And I watched. I think I watched half of it on PBS at the time.

[Ariana Grande]

Sounds about right.

[Cynthia Erivo]

And then shortly after, I moved to New York, which was in 2003. For those of you doing math for my age, good luck. Good old Hedda Lettuce, the drag queen. Used to. She still does them on occasion, but they're fewer and further between. But every week on Thursdays in Chelsea, at Chelsea Cinemas, she would host Chelsea Classics. And she would. And it would always be some movie, basically, that fell within the gay canon. I saw. What did I see there? I saw the Bad Seed there. Whatever Happened to Baby Jane, Valley of the Dolls, all of these gay classics. And the Women was one of them. And that was the first time that I ever saw it was in a movie theater with a whole lot of homos.

[Ariana Grande]

That's a great way to be introduced to it.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Ariana Grande]

You said the Bad Seed, Valley of the Dolls, the women. What was the other one?

[Cynthia Erivo]

You said Whatever Happened to Baby Jane.

[Ariana Grande]

So. Okay, keep talking. But those all have a theme for me of why they're gay canon.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Totally. But, yeah, I mean, I can't remember. Now we're talking. This was, like, almost 20 years ago at this point that I started going to that. But it was.

[Ariana Grande]

So you were 12.

[Cynthia Erivo]

I was 12, but that was my intro to it. And then I've watched the film a couple of times in years since then, and I saw a local production, not in New York, but a local community theater production of it somewhere at one point.

[Ariana Grande]

Well, that sounds heavenly.

[Cynthia Erivo]

That was great.

[Ariana Grande]

They were on that stage and they said their lines, I and me with the father that I have.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Oh, right. Of course.

[Ariana Grande]

So of course I saw the Women, the movie first at, like, probably the age of 8 or 9. And a lot of it went over my head. But I did enjoy the speed of it. I liked the style of it. And even. There's also enough physical humor in the movie that even if you're nine and you don't get all the quips, like, there's enough going on that you enjoy it.

[Cynthia Erivo]

It keeps moving. Yeah.

[Ariana Grande]

And I know that I saw the movie first because I didn't see the Women when it revived on Broadway. I remember the advertisements for it. You know, I was a. I was a Tri State Area kid. So, like, you opened up the Times. You saw the ads with all the women's names in it. Sex and the City was huge. So I totally knew who Cynthia Nixon was. Oh, right. Jennifer Coolidge was Stifler's mom. So, like, she was big to me.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Rue McClanahan was Golden Girls in your zeitgeist at that point.

[Ariana Grande]

Not when I was 11. I don't think I got into Golden Girls till high school.

[Cynthia Erivo]

That makes sense.

[Ariana Grande]

Yes. But, like, that Roundabout cast was stacked just in terms of, like, Kristen Johnston.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Was huge at the Time.

[Ariana Grande]

Yes. Because the third rock from the Sun. So yes, I knew her from that as well. But it was Cynthia Nixon, Kristen Johnston, Jennifer Tilly. I don't. Oh, I think this is how uncultured I was at 11. I only really knew Jennifer Tilly from her one role in Liar Liar. I didn't know her from Bullets Over Bravia. Oh, yeah, right in your bra.

[Cynthia Erivo]

But I so like, it was me. It was me.

[Ariana Grande]

So Jennifer Tilly, Cynthia Nixon, Kristen Johnston. There's also Mary Louise Wilson, who I didn't know yet, but went on to win a Tony for Great Gardens, obviously, and is Frau Schneider and the Natasha Richardson Cabaret. Heather Matazzaro. Heather Matarazzo Meta Matarazzo from welcome to the Dollhouse and Princess Diaries. Oh, yeah. I knew who she was at that point because Princess Diaries had come out.

[Cynthia Erivo]

And who did you just recently, as of like a couple of days ago, discover was in the show when I told you who she was.

[Ariana Grande]

Well, first of all, her name's Hallie. Hallie. Hallie Eisenberg, who at the time, and I still think of her as the Pepsi girl from those Pepsi commercials. She played the little daughter, Mary Jr. And a few days Adam mentioned that she is the sister of one Jesse Eisenberg. My head exploded and I said, I guess all the talent went to one sibling.

[Cynthia Erivo]

They really do look quite alike.

[Ariana Grande]

Okay, if you say so.

[Cynthia Erivo]

You don't see it.

[Ariana Grande]

I haven't googled. Okay. We have discussed many times how much I detest child actors, which is hilarious because I tried to be one and I'm glad I didn't I that I wasn't one because I would have looked back on that time of my life and I would have been so embarrassed. Yeah. Because I couldn't act as a kid. I sang beautifully. I will say that I've seen videos of me at like 9 and 10 and 11 singing and like Jesus Christ put that kid in like the Tabernacle Choir.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Voice of an angel.

[Ariana Grande]

Voice of an angel. I was a cute little kid. There are photos of me at like 6 and 7 and actually, sorry, from like 3 to 7, we were looking through photos of me at my mom's place and I was like, mom, why wasn't I a child's model? Look at this face. I should be in every Gap ad in the tri state area from 95 to 97. But I couldn't act worth a damn. And watching the women movie with I forget the girl's name, but the one who's who plays Norma Shearer's daughter Who goes on to be Dinah Lorde in the following year in Philadelphia Story. She's great.

[Cynthia Erivo]

She's great.

[Ariana Grande]

She's phenomenal. Halle in the roundabout version that is on YouTube via PBS is not great and is pretty much doing everything. That is the reason why I don't like child actors. She's loud, she's emotionless. She's clearly just saying the lines that she's been told to memorize. She has no idea what she's saying or what the context is for anything. And the applause and laughter are so canned in this pbs, which is which. I didn't realize PBS did that. And maybe they don't usually do it, but it's very clear for this women that it is.

[Cynthia Erivo]

There are some spots where it's definitely amped up. Yeah. Which is too bad because there are some laughs that are really earned, for sure, that don't come off as well as some other things because they push the laugh harder for things that aren't.

[Ariana Grande]

As funny 1000%, like Jennifer Coolidge's ash line, which gets a huge laugh. But there are moments that are purely dropped in that just sound so much louder. But I did watch that PBS version at some point. Never thought of it again until they did the remake in 2008. Yes.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Yeah.

[Ariana Grande]

Chris, was that 2008, I believe. Yes. Thank you, Chris. We're in a different studio today. The women remake that was made by Diane English, that's Murphy Brown.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Yeah. Which would explain why Candice Bergen was in it.

[Ariana Grande]

Yep. So I think she wrote and directed it starring Meg Ryan. Again, the women has always been a reason to just, like, stack your thing with talented females because there's so many roles. But it was Meg Ryan as Mary Haynes, the one who gets cheated on the Cynthia Nixon, Norma Shearer role. Ava Mendes is the Joan Crawford, Jennifer Tilly, Crystal Allen Shackle role. Annette Bening as Sylvia, the backstabbing whore played by Rosalind Russell.

[Cynthia Erivo]

It's Mary's gigantic quotes best friend.

[Ariana Grande]

Yes. Even though she can't stand Mary. And she basically does everything in her power to undermine everything that's going on in Mary's marriage. The moment she gets a nugget of information, she goes off and tells Hedda Hopper that's who Sylvia is. And that's a nut bending in the remake. But in the remake, they don't make her vindictive, they just make her a blabbermouth. And she learns that she needs to keep quiet and be a better friend in the. And it's all female power, which is nice since the original play is not that at all, but it's just also not as fun. And Bette Midler, I think is the Countess. And I believe Candice Bergen is Mary's mom. Yeah, Mary's mom, Meg Ryan's mom. Meg Ryan's mom, Jada Pinkett Smith plays their author friend, who in the play and movie is definitely queer coded.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Yes.

[Ariana Grande]

She's a spinster virgin who's also like a not best selling author, but a fine selling author. And in the remake they make her a best selling lesbian.

[Cynthia Erivo]

She doesn't do books. She's just a lesbian. That's the bestselling of the lesbians.

[Ariana Grande]

When you're Jada Pinkett Smith, you sell.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Well, that's true.

[Ariana Grande]

Yeah. No matter which gender you're selling yourself to.

[Cynthia Erivo]

That's true.

[Ariana Grande]

And then Debra Messing is the Jennifer Coolidge Edith part who's always popping babies. The joke they make in the remake is that there are no men until Dever Messing gives birth at the end. And it's the one boy in the entire movie is the one she gives birth to.

[Cynthia Erivo]

I wonder if that's why they changed in. Cause in the play, the baby that, that Edith has at the top of the second act is a boy. But they mention, they only mention the baby. In the movie they don't show that scene because they never show her being pregnant or talk about her being pregnant. But they say that she's had a baby and it's a girl. And I wonder if they did it to keep the woman, the women, female, trapped.

[Ariana Grande]

Well, I think so, because in the.

[Cynthia Erivo]

They also cut the child, Mary's boy, out of the.

[Ariana Grande]

I was about to say.

[Cynthia Erivo]

I'm on it.

[Ariana Grande]

Jesus Christ.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Sorry.

[Ariana Grande]

Yeah. No, in the play Mary has two kids and we only see the one. Right. And this because the second one's a boy. And then the movie it's just the daughter. But also that just helps me for fucking economy. Fewer children in your thing is already better.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Oh, we didn't mention this. So the women is all about women and only starring women. The men. There are no men that actually appear on stage. They're talked about constantly, but you never actually see them.

[Ariana Grande]

The men are the sub. The thing is, men are the subject of the women.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Yeah.

[Ariana Grande]

And the women are the only ones around.

[Cynthia Erivo]

It is not a Bechdel test play.

[Ariana Grande]

No. Well, I guess if you could say two women talking about another woman, maybe there's that.

[Cynthia Erivo]

But it's still about her relationship. Does that count?

[Ariana Grande]

No. I know, I know.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Okay.

[Ariana Grande]

It's a kissing cousin I'm just questioning. These are technicalities. What I'm saying is, if we're going off the technicality of two women with names on stage talking about something other than a man.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Right.

[Ariana Grande]

It's like, yes, they are talking about Mary Haynes and the tabloids, but it's because of what Mary Haynes is going on with her husband.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Yes.

[Ariana Grande]

So, yes, it's all Claremuth Luce for those of you who only know her from Flying Over Sunset, AKA the musical, where Carmen Cusack held his severed leg on the Vivienbaum on stage as she sang with her dead daughter and dead mother.

[Cynthia Erivo]

And she also orgasmed at the end of the title song.

[Ariana Grande]

She sure did. And I kind of did, too.

[Cynthia Erivo]

It was great.

[Ariana Grande]

It was great. Tony Yazbeck had a whole song about being a penis rocket.

[Cynthia Erivo]

He did.

[Ariana Grande]

It's true.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Oh, my God. That show was a fever dream.

[Ariana Grande]

James Lapine has made a career out of throwing spaghetti at the wall. And truly.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Wait, did all the people come back from the dead at the end of that show, too? He loves. I almost waited for you to talk about it in your Passion episode, but how, like, at the end of most of his shows, it's just like, everybody just sort of appears out of nowhere and, like, offers a moral kinda.

[Ariana Grande]

Well, falsettos usually just ends with Marvin.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Right? Yeah. I guess. I was thinking more about the Sondheim collabs.

[Ariana Grande]

Sure.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Cause Sunday and Into the woods and Passion. Passion.

[Ariana Grande]

But even Spelling Bee, no one's back from the dead. But it ends with the whole cast on stage being like, Bee.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Yes, exactly.

[Ariana Grande]

Isn't it? Yeah. Bee.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Yes.

[Ariana Grande]

I think Flying Over Sunset ends with the whole company. I can't remember. They might have come back from the dead, but the audience didn't come back from being asleep. Am I right?

[Cynthia Erivo]

I managed to stay awake. But yeah, that was a play that had. It was a toughie.

[Ariana Grande]

Yeah. For a play that had bonkers things in it and an amazing cast.

[Cynthia Erivo]

I was so bored for every bonkers thing that happened. I was Alert for the 15 seconds in which it happened. And then I would find myself very quickly drifting back.

[Ariana Grande]

The reason why I keep coming back to Carmen Cusack holding the severed leg of her dead mother is because it's, like, one of the few things I totally remember with clarity about that show.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Well, she dug it out of a. Out of a bush.

[Ariana Grande]

Like a flower bush during her LSD trip.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Yes. And her mother appears in this portal that's surrounded by palm fronds and is missing a leg. And Carmen Cusack hands The leg up.

[Ariana Grande]

To her because her mom died in a car crash.

[Cynthia Erivo]

In a car crash and lost her leg.

[Ariana Grande]

Yes, as did her daughter, who lost her head.

[Cynthia Erivo]

And then they bring the head on.

[Ariana Grande]

Oh, I don't remember that. I might have blocked that out. That was. That was another show that had a kid in it. Oh, I blocked that out because it was young Tony.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Oh, right, the tap dancing kid.

[Ariana Grande]

Yeah, Young Tony Yazbek.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Not the tap dance kid, but a tap dancing kid.

[Ariana Grande]

Exactly. That's. That's a deep cut for people.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Yeah. No hint in battle. In.

[Ariana Grande]

No, no hint on battle. Or what's his face. Right. Samuel Wright.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Yeah.

[Ariana Grande]

Or who's the. Who's the cousin on Fresh Prince?

[Cynthia Erivo]

Alfonso Ribeiro.

[Ariana Grande]

Yes, he's the original tap dance kid. But so there was Tony aspect as Cary Grant had a younger self. And so they tap dance together with the younger self in a dress because I guess his mom would put him in dresses.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Yes, she dressed him. She would dress him up as a girl.

[Ariana Grande]

Yeah, fun times. But so this all ties back to George Cukor because Cary Grant had been in many George Cukor movies. And George Cukor directed the movie version of the Women written by Claire Boothe Luce, who was a main character of Flying Over Sunset. Now, again, you may think of her from this play and as Carmen Cusack. First things first. Claire Boutluce was not Southern. That's just because Carmen Cusack has. Makes every role now Georgian.

[Cynthia Erivo]

She just got stuck in that. In that bright, bright star drawl.

[Ariana Grande]

Well, I think she's from Texas. Right?

[Cynthia Erivo]

That sounds right.

[Ariana Grande]

I think she's from Texas and then spent 15 years in London. So she's just always.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Oh, so she's just gone lilty.

[Ariana Grande]

Yeah, she's just always Roommahan in Golden.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Girls, which, I mean, she just always sounds incredible.

[Ariana Grande]

I love her.

[Cynthia Erivo]

So it's fine.

[Ariana Grande]

I'm Southern. Being flirtatious is part of my heritage. What does that mean? Her mother was a slut too.

[Cynthia Erivo]

So she's. Oh, so she's actually kind of just turned into Cola Scola as Mary Todd Lincoln.

[Ariana Grande]

Kinda. Yeah. But so Claire Bouthe Lewis is not anything in Flying Over Sunset other than the dead mom and dead daughter.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Correct.

[Ariana Grande]

And the lsd.

[Cynthia Erivo]

And the lsd.

[Ariana Grande]

But what they don't talk about in Flying Over Sunset is how conservative she was for a woman who built herself up from almost nothing and accomplished so much. It wasn't just like. This is definitely her probably most well known work. She'd written a couple of other plays that were like minor successes. This was the only big hit she had. She'd written some short stories and novels that all kind of went in and out and then. But she wrote a lot of opinion pieces and worked, I think at maybe Vanity Fair, like Harper's Bazaar or something, things like that.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Some editorial.

[Ariana Grande]

Yeah, yeah, a lot of editorials. Was she a senator or a congresswoman? She was.

[Cynthia Erivo]

She was part. Yeah, she was. She was in politics, but I can't remember what she.

[Ariana Grande]

What she did. I know she was also an ambassador at one point and just like, also like very sexually free. She was married to, I think his name is Henry Lewis. That was her second husband. But they had an open marriage. And I was reading on her Wikipedia page all the lovers that she had, including Roald Dahl, who I guess, when she was an ambassador, he, I guess was doing a lot of foreign correspondence on behalf of England because he was a semi well known figure and. And when they were sort of intertwined and his job was to keep her entertained, which meant fucking her.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Great.

[Ariana Grande]

And. But he caught. He apparently he tried after a while to pawn the job off to somebody else because she was too exhausting. I love the idea that Claire Booth Lewis at this point, she was probably like in her 60s, early 60s, and like Roald Dahl was in his mid-50s and he's like, this woman won't stop writing me.

[Cynthia Erivo]

He's like, she wore out my everlasting Gobstopper.

[Ariana Grande]

She Oompa'd my Loompa.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Oh, my God.

[Ariana Grande]

Oh, God.

[Cynthia Erivo]

She bead my FG.

[Ariana Grande]

I don't know what to say. Her BFNG. Know what I mean? The fantastic Mr. She trunched my ball. Shut the fuck up.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Oh, you know, it really trenches my ball.

[Ariana Grande]

The fantastic Mr. Silver Fox. Roll a dollar. Yeah. You know what really trenches? Bible. I love that. Clara Booth Luce just riding British authors to death.

[Cynthia Erivo]

But everybody needs a hobby.

[Ariana Grande]

Everyone's gotta be good at something.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Everybody's gotta be somewhere.

[Ariana Grande]

Yeah. And I guess if you're afraid of horses, you have to ride something else. But so with all of this in mind, you know, everything that she's accomplished as a woman, especially for the time period that she did, as well as being like, I may be married and, you know, it may not be great to be like, so sexually liberated, but like, fuck it, I want dick for all of that. She was very much like, women just really want to get married and have babies. And I think that's what they should be doing.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Which kind of makes for the whole plot of the women a little wild that all of them are so like sternly domesticated.

[Ariana Grande]

Yeah, well, it makes the women actually make more sense in terms of what she was going for because.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Right. You have no conflict if they're not tied to their men.

[Ariana Grande]

Exactly. And the women would be a much more interesting play if all of the different perspectives led to somewhere, but the voices of reason are the ones that are like, stick by your man, ride this out. It'll all be okay. Because a woman's nothing if she ain't a wife. And it's craziness when. Because that's the message inside of the most bitchy gift box ever. So we'll get to all this. But it's sort of how that play kind of just gaslights you into thinking it's more feminist than it actually is. Speaking of Cynthia Nixon and all those women in that interview, which we'll also talk about. But yeah, just if you look up Claire Boothe Lewis accomplished up the fucking butt. But. And I'm sure she tried stuff up the butt because again, she was liberated. But her, her ideology is so conservative to the point that like she, there's a, an organization like a, or a building or like, school that she founded. Like Ann Coulter speaks at like regularly because it's like, I know it's specifically for conservative women and let's be real, probably white conservative women because, yeah, she wasn't an open minded person. But it is fascinating that this play that has, and this piece in general that has lived on in the queer community and female community all stems from this person who's like, yeah, I did a lot, but I really should have had more babies.

[Cynthia Erivo]

But she hadn't even. I mean, she had done quite a bit at that point, but I mean, this was 36 when the play came out and all of these, you know, some of the things you mentioned didn't happen until further after that.

[Ariana Grande]

It's true. Well, there's also the question of whether she felt this way when she wrote the women or if it's like it all kind of locked in and when she quote, unquote, found religion after her.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Daughter died, that could do it.

[Ariana Grande]

Yeah, because that's. The other thing is apparently she became a born again Christian or something like that after her daughter died and experimented with LSD during the 50s, which is what the whole flying over sunset thing is, didn't stop her again from riding Roald Dahl into a coma in 1960s. You know what I mean?

[Cynthia Erivo]

That's right.

[Ariana Grande]

Listen, there are worse ways to go into a coma. I would rather not be sex with a woman, but I would like it to be sex.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Yeah, but maybe not with Roald Dahl.

[Ariana Grande]

What did he look like in 1964?

[Cynthia Erivo]

Just like a younger version of what he looked like when he was older. I don't know.

[Ariana Grande]

An anti Semite.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Yeah, that's exactly. Yes, he looked exactly like an anti Semite. You know, I don't know. I can't say that I've ever looked at Roald Dahl and been like, I would, I would rolled that doll.

[Ariana Grande]

Yeah. But I just eat my chocolate factory, daddy.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Oh my God.

[Ariana Grande]

On that note, let's take a break.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Billy, I beg to differ with you. How do you mean? You're the top. Yeah, you're an arrow collar. You're the top.

[Ariana Grande]

You're a Coolidge dollar.

[Cynthia Erivo]

You're the nimble thread of the feet afraid of.

[Ariana Grande]

And we're back. Okay, so the women. Let's, let's, let's go through this like character by character. Because like the Discord channel didn't. Because there's a lot of characters, a lot of characters. And the Discord Channel didn't really give us much. There was one question that I would like to talk about later, which was about drag queens.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Mm. But so now that I know about.

[Ariana Grande]

Oh, drag. Drag queen.

[Cynthia Erivo]

I just know the subject.

[Ariana Grande]

Yeah, sure, sure, sure, sure. Yes, I've watched Chu Wong Fu. I've read about the Birdcage.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Uh huh.

[Ariana Grande]

No, everyone knows that I can lie. I know I can quote that movie from start to finish.

[Cynthia Erivo]

You just watched it again like two weeks ago, didn't you?

[Ariana Grande]

No, I just shared a quote from it.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Okay.

[Ariana Grande]

Somebody has to like me best.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Just popped in the mail and I kept thinking.

[Ariana Grande]

Okay, I'm sorry. I want Elaine May to do a re rate of the women. I want her to look through this play and I want her to scrub it up and make it even funnier and have more of a dramatic purpose. Just saying.

[Cynthia Erivo]

I'm down with that. I mean, I hope, I don't know if Elaine May. I want to say that I hope Elaine May still has enough life in her to make that happen. But I don't know if she does.

[Ariana Grande]

She has more life in her than I do.

[Cynthia Erivo]

But that's true. And she's 90 something, right?

[Ariana Grande]

She sure is. Good for her. It's because she avoids the sun and people. That's what's going to keep her alive forever.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Same. That's not true.

[Ariana Grande]

Yeah, if you guys, if you want to live forever, avoid the sun and people like Elaine May und Dracula. Nosferatu, who's a character we Want to talk about first?

[Cynthia Erivo]

I don't know. Let's just go down the roster. Let's start with Mary.

[Ariana Grande]

Okay. Mary Haynes. So Mary Haynes, as far as we know, she's like, what, 35?

[Cynthia Erivo]

She's in her mid-30s.

[Ariana Grande]

Mid-30s, yes. She's been married for 12 years to her husband Stephen. They have in the play two kids. Little Mary, who's about nine, I guess.

[Cynthia Erivo]

I think so.

[Ariana Grande]

Yeah. Eight or nine. Because the play also takes. The play and the movie both take place over the course of like, two and a half years.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Right at the midway through act two, we jump forward two years.

[Ariana Grande]

Yes. Act one takes place over the course of, like, six to eight months. And then act two, we jump forward to two years. Yeah, yeah. Because I actually. Act two, I realized.

[Cynthia Erivo]

All right, because there's two months when they go to bermuda in Act 1.

[Ariana Grande]

Yes. Sorry. No, actually, no, I take that back. I take that back. Sorry. Act one, it's about eight to nine months. Act two begins, and it's like about a month or two later, and then they're in Reno. And then after the second scene, that's when we jump ahead two years. Because the last three scenes all take place in one night.

[Cynthia Erivo]

So it's like three years.

[Ariana Grande]

Yeah, let's say three years.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Let's stick with that.

[Ariana Grande]

Mary is probably the richest of all of her friends. It's unclear, but it's implied that she has the most money and that the money comes from her family. That she's. She's very well off and she married a man who was.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Who didn't have anything.

[Ariana Grande]

Who didn't have anything. Yeah, but because I guess of her connections and his abilities. He's a lawyer, I guess.

[Cynthia Erivo]

I think that's right.

[Ariana Grande]

Yeah, I think he's a lawyer. But he. It's implied that he became a very successful lawyer. So in addition to her family money, he then started making a lot of money. So combined, they are incredibly rich.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Yeah, because she defends him at one point when her mother is trying to talk her down on him, and she's like, no, he got there on his own.

[Ariana Grande]

Well, yeah, her mother is like, he wouldn't have been. He wouldn't have gotten where he was if it wasn't for you. And she's like, no, he would have gotten there. It's fine. And then also his assistant shows up with the contracts and she thinks that he actually would have been more successful before and for marrying the kids.

[Cynthia Erivo]

His assistant, who's also hot for him.

[Ariana Grande]

Yeah, everyone's hot for Steven. Well, apparently he's like the one cute husband.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Mmm.

[Ariana Grande]

Yeah. With a little thinning on top, but, you know.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Sure.

[Ariana Grande]

That's life, baby.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Jude Law, baby.

[Ariana Grande]

Well, not anymore. Now he's got a rug sewn in there.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Oh, did he get a rug?

[Ariana Grande]

It looks it.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Oh, I haven't seen him recently, I guess.

[Ariana Grande]

Somebody look up Jude Law. Present day. I'm pretty sure there's a rug sewn into his scalp, I think. It doesn't sound a Brillo pad. It looks quite nice.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Well, anyway, before he had. Before he had a rug sewn, that thinning would have done just fine.

[Ariana Grande]

Yes, but. So the point is, Mary, she's the wealthiest of them and she seems the most secure. She's not. She has no ulterior motives, Mary.

[Cynthia Erivo]

No.

[Ariana Grande]

Yeah, and there's. And we're gonna keep doing this. We're gonna talk about the movie version and the play version back and forth. Because the movie is what most people know. And in so many ways, the movie doesn't prove things. But also, the movie doesn't have, like, necessarily a satirical point to be made. It's just trying to be a good time.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Oh, look, it's Jude Law.

[Ariana Grande]

Oh, look, we're looking at Jude Law photos right now. Yeah, see, that's more hair.

[Cynthia Erivo]

No, that is not.

[Ariana Grande]

It's not a rug. I think he got plants, but it's far more hair than he used to have.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Maybe hair transplant.

[Ariana Grande]

Hair transplant.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Thank you.

[Ariana Grande]

There it is. Ding dong, ding my dong, baby. You can ding my dong, ding my dong, Judah. But so I will always find that man hot.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Ariana Grande]

Talented Mr. Ripley, baby.

[Cynthia Erivo]

That's just. That's my go to for him.

[Ariana Grande]

Oh, yeah.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Jude Law in a bathtub for a.

[Ariana Grande]

Movie with no peen or any male on male sex.

[Cynthia Erivo]

You can kind of see peen in the bathtub.

[Ariana Grande]

Kind of.

[Cynthia Erivo]

But you do get two butts.

[Ariana Grande]

You do get two butts and you get a lot of homoeroticism. You could definitely pleasure yourself to that movie. Even though there's not. It's not, technically speaking, gay porn. Same thing with challengers. But there's actual peen in challengers.

[Cynthia Erivo]

I still haven't seen challengers.

[Ariana Grande]

Well, okay, so speaking of hating women.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Somebody was watching challengers on a flight that I was on not too long ago. And I didn't keep looking. I was watching something on the monitor that I had in front of me. But I looked up a couple times and I was like, I don't know if I would watch this on an airplane.

[Ariana Grande]

No. Was it a man or woman?

[Cynthia Erivo]

It was a man.

[Ariana Grande]

Could you tell if they were erect?

[Cynthia Erivo]

You know, I didn't ask. I should have just, like, craned my neck over the seat to just. I don't know.

[Ariana Grande]

Yeah, that's what I do.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Yeah.

[Ariana Grande]

Is that not how you respond, or.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Do you just, like, reach between the seats and poke?

[Ariana Grande]

No, I. No, I respect people's boundaries. Okay. That's good. I look from afar, and if I can't tell, I shout. If they're erect or not, you got a boer. You got yourself a little chirp. Because if they were erect, most likely they were a gay man. If they weren't erect, they were probably a straight man. Every time a straight friend of mine watches Challengers and tells me they saw it, I say to them, I don't know what you get out of it. But, like.

[Cynthia Erivo]

But I'll tell you.

[Ariana Grande]

I'll tell you what the gays get out of it. But. So how do we even get.

[Cynthia Erivo]

I mean, everyone was just looking for an excuse to watch Mike Feist make out with a guy.

[Ariana Grande]

Mike Feis isn't even the hottest one in that movie. Josh O'Connor is the hottest one in that movie.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Yes.

[Ariana Grande]

When he pulls that stool with his foot closer to him as they're eating the churros, that is hotter than any Sean Cody bullshit you could imagine. Sometimes it's about what you don't see.

[Cynthia Erivo]

We have to move and you don't. I can't keep thinking about this.

[Ariana Grande]

Speaking of what? Well, speaking of what you don't see men and the women. We never see. We never see Stephen Haynes.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Never see Stephen Teens. Nope.

[Ariana Grande]

No, but supposedly they are very content. They're very happy. Yeah, yeah. But what we learned about Mary. So there's Mary of the movie, Mary of the stage show. Mary of the movie is Norma Shearer. And she's not, like. She's not angelic. It's more that she's just sort of.

[Cynthia Erivo]

She's warm. Yeah, she's just a warm presence.

[Ariana Grande]

And she has no ulterior motives. Like, she just. Actually, I'll put it this way. This isn't even negative, but I was in correspondence with somebody in. Regarding to my play who's in the industry, and, like, you were to play.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Yes, I know, I know.

[Ariana Grande]

Listen, I can make jokes about you, too, but I'm not gonna.

[Cynthia Erivo]

It's open. Door's open. Hi.

[Ariana Grande]

Hi.

[Cynthia Erivo]

We're holding hands now. Wait, are we doing the. Hold on. I'm Ariana Grande. I'm holding your pointer finger. Okay, go ahead.

[Ariana Grande]

Thank you so much. No, I only say this because it was a person who reached out to me about it who, like, is in the industry and works on all this stuff. And they said, I would love to, like, meet up. And this was right before Thanksgiving. And I was seeing theater pretty much every day until Thanksgiving. And then it was.

[Cynthia Erivo]

I remember that. Yep.

[Ariana Grande]

And I responded with, like, absolutely would love to. I've sort of got a very busy week, and then it's the holidays. Like, could we meet after the holidays? And it was reported to me that this person was very taken aback by my response. They're like, what. What is he getting at here? He's. Most people would just say, has a life. Well, like, most people would just say, tomorrow. Is he, like, I kind of take offense to this. And then I reached out again, and they didn't respond. And I said to our, like, liaison. I was like, that's just. It was just the truth. Like, the truth is that I couldn't. I could not give more than five minutes of my time until this day. And I wanted to give more than five minutes of my time to this person. And, like, Mary is somebody who would be like, I can't meet you till after Thanksgiving. So, like, let's do a day after Thanksgiving. And people in her circle would be like, what kind of power move is that? Yeah, what is she doing? What's she getting at? And Mary's like, no, like, just genuinely, I have plans for the next five days. Can I see you on the sixth day?

[Cynthia Erivo]

Mm.

[Ariana Grande]

And someone like Sylvia Fowler, her quote unquote best friend, will be like, well, I have plans till the 9th day. How about the 10th day? And then Mary, at face value, would just be like, okay, 10th day.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Yeah, Sylvia's definitely a 1 upper 1,000%.

[Ariana Grande]

Sylvia is someone who would tell you she wrote a play.

[Cynthia Erivo]

She sure would.

[Ariana Grande]

She wrote five plays.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Did you know?

[Ariana Grande]

And they're all going to Broadway.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Did you know she wrote a play?

[Ariana Grande]

She wrote a play. But so Mary in the. That's Mary of the movie. Mary of the stage play is more of, like, a wet blanket. She's kind and she's kind.

[Cynthia Erivo]

She's a doormat.

[Ariana Grande]

Yeah, very much so. And is, like, just getting tossed around like a rag doll by everybody. Cause she thinks that everything is fine. She takes everything at face value. Everyone knows about her husband's affair behind her back. And ultimately, Sylvia pulls a game of chess on her. Because the way Sylvia found out about her about Mary's husband's affair is through a manicurist. Yes, because the manicurist knows the mistress, Crystal Allen. And Sylvia's like, well, I can't be the one to tell Mary I don't want blood on my hands. So I'm gonna send her to my manicurist.

[Cynthia Erivo]

She wants Jungle Red on her hands.

[Ariana Grande]

She sure do. Jungle Red. That's the nail polish. She sends Mary to the manicurist in what is a pretty great scene that was basically just a monologue for the manicurist. Like, if you're a bitstress, that is the golden role.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Yeah. Even if you were. Yeah. If you were playing, like, maybe two smaller roles in this show. Because there are how many characters in the show?

[Ariana Grande]

40, they say. 40. Yeah. So they do a lot of doubling.

[Cynthia Erivo]

With the smaller roles. But if you had that scene and one other one, you could be the standout of the show. If you were really good, you could be.

[Ariana Grande]

I mean, the actress who does it in the movie is a standout.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Yeah, she's great.

[Ariana Grande]

She has those eyes that look up and down a man. Like a searchlight soak. Please. But, like, just everything kind of happens to Mary in the stage show, and the only real decision she makes is to divorce her husband. And then she kind of just lays low until the very end. Oh, right.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Cause even in the film, she's the one that decides to go to Bermuda. Her mother isn't like, well, no, her mother. I'm taking you to Bermuda.

[Ariana Grande]

Well, so in the stage show, she and her husband. Sorry, in the movie, I could be wrong. In the movie, there's this whole thing about how Mary and her husband had their honeymoon in Canada and they were gonna go again.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Do you think that's a reference to Norma Shearer being Canadian?

[Ariana Grande]

It was. She Canadian.

[Cynthia Erivo]

She was Canadian.

[Ariana Grande]

I had no idea.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Wikipedia.

[Ariana Grande]

She's a girl's best friend. Fuck diamonds. But.

[Cynthia Erivo]

So that would hurt.

[Ariana Grande]

But you can make more diamonds. But in the movie, they have this whole thing about, oh, Steven and I had our honeymoon in Canada and we're gonna go again, but then he cancels cause of Crystal, and she finds out about the affair with Crystal, and I think the mom takes the Canada trip and turns it into a Bermuda trip.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Oh, you're right. You're right.

[Ariana Grande]

You're right, you're right. I think so.

[Cynthia Erivo]

That sounds right. Yeah. But she gets on the phone with Steven and says, mom and I are going to Bermuda, which she does not do in the stage show.

[Ariana Grande]

There are more interactions with Steven in the movie than there are in the stage show. Not only just with Mary, but with Chris. Yeah, there are.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Oh, yeah, there's some great phone calls.

[Ariana Grande]

There are three scenes that the movie adds that are so perfect and so iconic and the stage show would be better off having them. One is when Sylvia and their other friend Edith go to Saxplax to scope out Crystal.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Yes. That is to swoop in.

[Ariana Grande]

To swoop in, to spy on her and basically be like, we all know without saying it.

[Cynthia Erivo]

It's a great scene.

[Ariana Grande]

And the scene that precedes that is Crystal on the phone with Steven, manipulating him to cancel on his wife and.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Be with her cameo by butterfly, McQueen.

[Ariana Grande]

Absolutely. And that is a great scene and shows you. Because it also shows you that Steven is like, sort of has one foot in both sides of the door. Right. Like, he's. He's definitely spending a lot of time with Crystal, but he's also trying to be with his wife Mary. And it's more like any time that he tries to. That's when Crystal gets him out of it. And the movie kind of keeps showing how much Steven tries to appeal to Mary and how miserable he is in the second half with Crystal. Whereas in the play, he kind of is all in on Crystal, as far as we know, in the first act and in the second act, he's less happy, but he's not miserable. It seems he's just kind of being dominated by her in their marriage in the second half. But, yeah, in the movie, Mary definitely has that phone call that's not in the stage of like, I'm going to Bermuda. I'm doing this. I'll see you later. And she's doing everything that she thinks she should be doing, and she keeps talking about her pride. And, well, I have my pride. Shouldn't I leave Steven because I have my pride? And everyone's like, no, you have children, you have a husband, you have a beautiful two story penthouse apartment in Manhattan. You stay even Crystal's like, what? Like, she's like, yeah, I'm his mistress. Like, I'm not gonna upset the status quo. Like, he. I'm happy being a kept woman. You should be happy with everything you got. I love the way that Joan Crawford asks her in the standoff in the dressing room scene where she's like, what do you got to kick about? Like, she's like, genuinely curious. She's like, trying to not befriend her, but, like, level with her.

[Cynthia Erivo]

She's like, after all this time, what are you hanging on to, girl?

[Ariana Grande]

Yeah, she's like, what? She's like, what did you expect? Yeah. So, yeah, we're jumping all ahead we are.

[Cynthia Erivo]

It's okay.

[Ariana Grande]

There's a confrontation scene between Mary and Crystal. It's like the mo. It's the straw that breaks the camel's back that leads to everything else tumbling. Because when Mary comes back for Bermuda, she thinks that all is good in the hood until she realizes, no, Steven is still with Crystal. And not only that, like, is renting her an apartment and is buying all of her stuff. Like, Crystal is opening accounts all over Manhattan with Stephen as her business reference, meaning Stephen is footing all the bills. And when her friends say, like, crystal's in the next dressing room. You should probably go. And then it ends up being, like, a terrible decision because Mary thinks she's gonna go in and appeal to Crystal's humanity and be like, you're breaking up a marriage and you should look at my face.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Except that she's not prepared for the fact that Krystal's just a raging bitch.

[Ariana Grande]

Yeah, well, Crystal knows absolutely what she's doing, and she has no qualms about it. And Claire Bootheous always has said that of all the women in that play, she sympathized with Crystal the most, which I don't believe. I do not believe for a second.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Based on what?

[Ariana Grande]

Cause Crystal in the play is actually even worse than Crystal in the movie.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Yeah, she is. She's mean.

[Ariana Grande]

She's mean. And maybe it's just how Jennifer Tilly says the lines, but, like. Cause she's fucking. She's braying.

[Cynthia Erivo]

I read the play before, like, going through it quickly with the Roundabout Version. And she's far meaner in the play.

[Ariana Grande]

Yeah, no, she is far meaner.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Oh, no. But I should say she reads just as mean in the play on the page as she does if you're experiencing the Jenner fertility, like, combo Olive Neal version of Crystal Allen.

[Ariana Grande]

Well, so in both versions, when they're talking, Crystal says to her, like, I know that I can't replace you as the new Mrs. Haines. She goes, don't get me wrong. Your husband's obsessed with me. She's like, but he's a moral dude, and he's not gonna leave you for me. Which ends up being the seed planted in Mary's brain. Because when Mary. Mary eventually then has a confrontation with Steven off stage, and she's the one that does the divorce, because she now has it in her head, like, steven wants to leave me, but he just won't do it. So I'm like, I have my pride. I'll leave him. But what Krystal says to her is, you and it's again, Joan Crawford says to her, she's like, what do you gotta kick about? You have the status, you have the money, you have the apartment. Like, what?

[Cynthia Erivo]

Like, why are you living the luxury girl?

[Ariana Grande]

Why are you so. Why are you so butthurt? And Norma Shearer, in all of her regality, she's like, the love of my husband means more to me than all of that. And Joan Crawford's just like, yeah, well, that's your problem. Whale. Whale. And there are two lines that the movie has that are not in the show, and they're pretty iconic. They're quoted all the time in the play. Mary says, stephen doesn't love you. And Crystal says he's doing the best that he can under the circumstances. In the movie. She says, steven doesn't love you. And Crystal says, well, if he doesn't, he's a very good actor. And then I know Mary has this line in the play, which is, by the way, I should say, if you're dressing to please Stephen, not that he doesn't go for obvious affair. And Crystal doesn't have this line in the play. She has it in the movie. It's a great line written by Anita Luce. All the best lines in the movie that are not in the play are written by Anita Loose, who wrote Joan Jennifer Blondes.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Yep.

[Ariana Grande]

And she says, thanks for the tip, but if anything, I wear doesn't please Stephen.

[Cynthia Erivo]

I take it off.

[Ariana Grande]

It is.

[Cynthia Erivo]

I'm an ECDZT.

[Ariana Grande]

This is 1939. They got that past the censors.

[Cynthia Erivo]

It's amazing.

[Ariana Grande]

It's amazing. And, like, the lines where Sylvia and Edith spy on Crystal, and they're like, oh, we're looking for a perfume. And, like, you know, I'm sure men come here all the time asking your opinion. She goes, oh, the men who come here asking for my opinion on perfume, like, you tend to be with women already. And Rosalind Russell goes, I never thought that would bother you.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Well, so that's. Okay. So that sort of covers Mary and Crystal, right?

[Ariana Grande]

A little bit. We haven't really. We're getting into Crystal now. The point of Mary is that, like, her arc is basically she's oblivious. Then she's in a wet blanket, and then she comes back, divorced from Reno two years later, and decides, no, I messed everything up. I'm gonna get my husband back. And that's her arc, essentially.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Yeah.

[Ariana Grande]

And the movie, it's more that she kind of just gets wiser and tougher.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Yes. She gains a backbone.

[Ariana Grande]

Yes. She always wanted to be with her Husband. She never wanted to divorce him. She always loved him. And she let the influences of others affect her. And I think having pride is a good thing. I hate her final line. Pride is something of luxury a woman in love can't afford. But take that line out and you have a woman who has come back to her husband a stronger person, and they can sort of begin again. But in the play, it's just sort of like, I love my husband. I'm devastated by my husband. I'm back with my husband. End of play. Crystal is basically just like, riding the social ladder higher and higher and higher. And how does she really end in the play?

[Cynthia Erivo]

Well, so in the play, as in the film, after two years with Steven, Crystal has grown bored and is now seeing an, Like a. Is he supposed to be meant to. Is he meant to be like a. Like a. Like a cowboy style actor?

[Ariana Grande]

Yeah, it's Buck Winston.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Buck Winston. Yeah.

[Ariana Grande]

We'll get to the Buck Winston of it all when we get to the Countess and read.

[Cynthia Erivo]

But she. But she. She starts a relationship with Buck Winston. And Mary finds out about that through little Mary.

[Ariana Grande]

Yes.

[Cynthia Erivo]

So I don't know, it's a little more vague, but ultimately in the last scene, it's revealed that to the Countess that the whole Buck thing is happening with Crystal. But the. I don't know. I think that Mary getting her shit back together just kind of sends Sylvia and Crystal into a tizzy and they just start fighting. Yeah, that's kind of it.

[Ariana Grande]

It is.

[Cynthia Erivo]

It's a little thin.

[Ariana Grande]

Yeah, it's all kind of vague and convoluted because Crystal. Yeah, she's cheating on Steven with who's an actor, a popular actor. And in the play, they don't have really any dirt on Crystal. It's all just about confessions. She, like, manipulates into confessions. And even then, like, there's no real fallout about it because Buck is married to the Countess, who's very, very wealthy. And we find out that the Countess owns the horse that Buck is famous for being with in movies. And thus he can't make pictures at MGM without the horse.

[Cynthia Erivo]

So if he leaves her, then he. Then he loses his career is ultimately the point. Yeah.

[Ariana Grande]

Which I'm also like. But in real life, MGM would just be like, get another fucking horse.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Or MGM would be like, we'll buy the horse.

[Ariana Grande]

We'll buy the horse. Who fucking cares?

[Cynthia Erivo]

Yeah.

[Ariana Grande]

In the movie it's that he's a radio actor. And the whole thing with radio actors is your show is only as popular as your listenership. And you only make money off of your sponsors. And the main sponsor is this big conglomerate, as it turns out, personally owned by the Countess because no one would put Buck on the radio. So she bought out a sponsor to sponsor his show. So without her, he has nothing. Exactly. Which is much clearer. That is a clear thing. That is a stake.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Which leads to another great line in the film, which is not in the play.

[Ariana Grande]

Yes. When Crystal. Crystal in the movie is gonna leave Steven for Buck and ultimately all the things that Mary does to, like, get a confession out of Sylvia. So that way Krystal can sort of be blackmailed and all this other stuff. Krystal, in the end, is sort of like, I don't care. I don't need it. I don't need alimony. I don't need Steven to give me anything. Buck is rich. He's making so much money on the radio, we're going off to California and fuck you all. And then we find out his payday is gonna end, like the moment you two get, you know, get together. Which means that basically, Krystal has two options because she's now admitted that she is cheating on Steven and leaving him. So she can't get alimony from him now, and he doesn't want to have anything to do with her. So she's done with Stephen. And Buck either could run off with Crystal and have no money, or he could stay with the Countess and still have a career. Unclear either way. Crystal's having no money. And so she says, it's back to the perfume counter for me. And she says, you're going to have.

[Cynthia Erivo]

You're going to quote it better than I can.

[Ariana Grande]

Okay, great. I was trying to.

[Cynthia Erivo]

I'm going to let you do it.

[Ariana Grande]

I was trying to give you.

[Cynthia Erivo]

I appreciate it, but I'm going to paraphrase, and it's not going to be as good.

[Ariana Grande]

As Joan Crawford exits the powder room, she says, by the way, there's a name for you ladies, but it's not used in high society outside of a kennel, meaning she's calling them all Beaches. Beaches. Because they couldn't say bitch. They called each other Beezel in the movie because that's the only way they could get away with.

[Cynthia Erivo]

They do say bitch in the play.

[Ariana Grande]

Yes, they do.

[Cynthia Erivo]

At a different point, I think they.

[Ariana Grande]

Say bitch a couple of times.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Yes, yes.

[Ariana Grande]

And they even make references to Cesarian scars, which they don't do in the movie.

[Cynthia Erivo]

The play itself has a lot. Not vulgar, but just a lot more stuff that you couldn't say because of the code in the 30s in film. Yeah.

[Ariana Grande]

Which just makes the dialogue more clever in the movie because you have to work your way around it because you.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Can'T talk about pregnancy or morning sickness or any of. Yeah. Anything pregnancy related, basically.

[Ariana Grande]

And any immorality a character does has to be punished. It's why Elizabeth Taylor's character dies off a cliff in butterfield 8 and shit like that. We talked about this in the Streetcar episode because Streetcar Named Desires movie had to jump through so many hoops in order to make it to the screen. And they had to fight tooth and nail for so many plot points to stay. And so the whole thing about, like, Blanche having a promiscuous past and all these things, they're like, look at the third act of the movie. Doesn't she pay for that? Like, come on, that's Hayes code.

[Cynthia Erivo]

One of my favorite things, though, that they. The friend Edith, throughout Act 1, is pregnant, but in the film she is not. Well, it's kind of hinted at, but they never actually say that she is. But she still says this line in the film. She talks about they're eating lunch, and she talks about needing to unswallow her lunch because she's sick to her stomach. And I'm like, that is the best version of I need to go throw up that I've ever heard in my life. To go unswallow my lunch is great.

[Ariana Grande]

It is. And they're. I would say, yeah, the main, like, culprits of this group. It's Mary, Sylvia, Edith and Peggy. Nancy. There's not much to say about Nancy.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Nancy's kind of an. Like a. Ultimately, she's kind of a pointless character. She really isn't even in the movie.

[Ariana Grande]

She's not really in the play. No. Because she's there for the first scene and. Cause then she goes off to Africa for a book tour.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Something like that.

[Ariana Grande]

Something like that. And then comes back at the very end when we jump ahead two years. The whole point of Nancy's existence is that she's the only one who's not married and she doesn't really desire to be. And also, she's meant to sort of foreshadow that Sylvia's bad news because she's the only friend who doesn't like Sylvia. And she keeps telling Mary that Sylvia sucks. And Mary's like, no, she's actually a pretty good friend. And of course, like, Sylvia is the one who gets cut out of the friendship group two years later and lobs onto Crystal because Sylvia also has her own Stuff. And I think we can do that after the next break. But so while we do that, let's just mention Peggy and Edith and get them out of the way because Edith is more interesting of a character, Peggy's more important to the plot, but Peggy's dull.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Peggy is a bit of a wet blanket of a character. Every scene she's in, she's just sort of mopey and sad because her and her husband don't have as much money as everybody else does. So there's a lot they can't afford to do.

[Ariana Grande]

Well, that's the thing. Is that what we. It's what's hinting? Well, it's.

[Cynthia Erivo]

She has money, but he's in control of everything.

[Ariana Grande]

Yes. He won't take her money. Right. And so like she's got like, they're sitting on this pile of cash that she has from her family, but she.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Wants to have a baby and he won't have one because he doesn't want to have her paying for the expenses.

[Ariana Grande]

Yes.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Yeah, it's a. That's a whole. It's a whole thing.

[Ariana Grande]

Yeah. And it's Joan Fontaine in the movie who's like, does the assignment for the most part. But she has like that one phone call with the husband in Reno because it leads to as Mary's getting divorced and has to go to Reno to do the divorce because was that the like law at the time was that if a woman's filing for divorce, she has to do it in Reno?

[Cynthia Erivo]

I think that's correct.

[Ariana Grande]

Cuz men could file for divorce anywhere but women could only do it? I think that's correct. Because that's another thing is that women filing for divorce was a relatively new phenomenon. And it's something that Mary's mom talks about. She's like, I hate these modern laws. Back in the day when women couldn't file for divorces, they stuck around and like they made the best of it.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Well, at one point, Mary has a line about how she and her and Stephen being equals. And I'm like, are you not then?

[Ariana Grande]

But in 1936, she kind of thought they were like that sort of thing is.

[Cynthia Erivo]

It does sort of. It does show you how far we've come in certain aspects.

[Ariana Grande]

In certain aspects. Yeah. But it also sort of shows you how at every point of our lives we feel like we can't progress any further.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Mm.

[Ariana Grande]

Whether it's politically, society wise, or like scientifically speaking, it's like, oh my God, like, look at all the technology we have. We can't. Like we can't progress further than this. Right? But we can't. Like, when they're like, I don't have to throw my feces out the window. It's never getting better than this.

[Cynthia Erivo]

I don't have to stick my ass out of a window. No way.

[Ariana Grande]

No way. I don't have to shit in a hole in the ground. My God.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Huzzah.

[Ariana Grande]

Huzzah. A marble toilet.

[Cynthia Erivo]

You say so. Oh. But, yeah, Peggy. Peggy sort of accompanies Mary to Reno because she decides that she's gonna get a divorce because things just aren't working, but then finds out while they're in Reno that she is pregnant and calls it all off and is like, I'm going back to my husband.

[Ariana Grande]

Yes, well, because she calls him to see sort of what his reaction is, and his reaction is like, the best case reaction. He's like, oh, my God, I'm so happy. Forget everything that we were doing. We have a baby. We'll make it happen.

[Cynthia Erivo]

And. Ugh. But I will say that her acting in that scene in the film is like quintessential late 30s, early 40s. Like, oh, darling. Really? Do you mean it? Oh, that's wonderful. It's so good.

[Ariana Grande]

Everybody who has an emotional moment in that movie has a quintessential 30s, 40s moment.

[Cynthia Erivo]

It's true.

[Ariana Grande]

It's Joan Fontaine on the phone of, oh, Darling. And then even our little Mary, future Dinah Lorde, who's again, a phenomenal child's actress. She has that terrible moment when Mary. She's.

[Cynthia Erivo]

The lines.

[Ariana Grande]

Yes, the lines are terrible. And she can't do anything with it. And it's when Mary tells her daughter midway through the movie at end of Act 1 of the play, mommy and dad are getting divorced. And she doesn't understand. She's like, people fall out of love with each other. Are you gonna fall out of love with me? No. And she's like, okay, mother darling, you go to the car. I have to go to the restroom. And she goes to the bathroom, and she's like, oh, Daddy darling. Mother dear, do something. Mother, darling, dearly, darling. And I'm like, oh, that poor child.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Which is wild because the scene up until then is actually pretty good.

[Ariana Grande]

It's really well done.

[Cynthia Erivo]

It's a nice, straightforward conversation between a parent and a kid about a divorce. But, yeah, that last line is rough.

[Ariana Grande]

It's so rough. It's very well written. It's well acted from both of them. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And considering that Norma Shira was a movie star and she's the lead of this film where her husband was the head of the studio. Like, she's not as indulgent in that movie. Would expect her to be.

[Cynthia Erivo]

No, she's really charming.

[Ariana Grande]

Her only real 30s moment is the very last shot of her with her arms out being like Stephen. Right.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Running to Stephen, who we don't.

[Ariana Grande]

We never see.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Yeah.

[Ariana Grande]

Who would play Steven in 1939? Would it be Cary Grant or is he too dashing?

[Cynthia Erivo]

I think he. Well, I don't.

[Ariana Grande]

Meh.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Maybe Cary Grant. I'm trying to think of who else was. Because you just.

[Ariana Grande]

The thing about Stephen is also that he's supposedly very weak.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Oh, Leslie Howard.

[Ariana Grande]

Oh, yeah.

[Cynthia Erivo]

I think it's a Leslie Howard moment.

[Ariana Grande]

And it's not in color, so you can't see the tube. Correct.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Yeah, he wouldn't need a tube. He'd be thinning.

[Ariana Grande]

It's true, it's true. But you know when he's. Cause he's Ashley in Gone with the Wind.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Right, Ashley.

[Ariana Grande]

Ashley with that again. With a rug on his face. Yeah, yeah. If that movie were in black and white, he wouldn't look as old as he does.

[Cynthia Erivo]

That's true.

[Ariana Grande]

It's just.

[Cynthia Erivo]

But no, I think Steven would be inappropriate. Same year.

[Ariana Grande]

Same year. It's true. That was a great year for film. But yet Stephen is 1939.

[Cynthia Erivo]

1999.

[Ariana Grande]

The thing about Steven is what's so fascinating about him is he's talked about all the time is like, he's the best of all the husbands. He's the handsomest, he's the kindest, he's the smartest. He's also the weakest. And like, it's basically just being manipulated left and right by everybody. But also, like is not nastier in the play from everything we hear about him to marry. But like is just so much more indifferent towards her because he's. The word they always say is that she says, do you love me anymore? And he goes, well, I'm fond of you.

[Cynthia Erivo]

He blows her off a fair amount. He also hangs up on her Before a call is completely over, he hangs up on her.

[Ariana Grande]

He blows her off on too many times. And he says to her in their off stage confrontation, I'm awfully fond of you and I don't want to get divorced and all these other things. In the movie, it's much more clear that he loves her very much. He's going through a midlife crisis and is sort of in over his head with Crystal and ultimately marries Crystal out of obligation because once Mary goes through with the divorce, he's like, well, everyone has seen me in New York with this woman. We've been in the society pages together. I, like, bought her an apartment. I gotta marry her now.

[Cynthia Erivo]

I love it. That as a farewell to Mary, he, like, sends her a flower with a note that says, what can I say?

[Ariana Grande]

Which can go either way.

[Cynthia Erivo]

It's true.

[Ariana Grande]

Edith, Edith. Edith is constantly getting knocked up.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Edith is always pregnant.

[Ariana Grande]

Edith has an addiction to.

[Cynthia Erivo]

In the play.

[Ariana Grande]

Yeah. Always pregnant in the play. She's an addiction to popping out cum nuggets. She just doesn't.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Oh, my God.

[Ariana Grande]

What? That's what children are. They are overgrown chia pets that you have to nurture. And then one day they resent you because they go to a psychoanalyst who tells them that it's all your fault. To which I say, bullshit, deary.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Edith.

[Ariana Grande]

Edith, played by Jennifer Coolidge in the Roundabout Revival.

[Cynthia Erivo]

You can honestly skip most of the Roundabout revival. But if you go and watch Jennifer Coolidge's scenes, they're all winners.

[Ariana Grande]

Coolidge is definitely the one who walks away with that production.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Yeah. Edith has. So Edith is kind of Sylvia's co conspirator. She actually does her fair. She does her best to try to talk Sylvia out of a lot of the awful things that she does. She has a little bit more of a conscience and enjoys the gossip, but.

[Ariana Grande]

Also is like she has a line. It's more that she's a yes man. Like, it's on all this bad stuff that Sylvia does. It's not that Edith endorses it so much as she doesn't stop her.

[Cynthia Erivo]

She's a Gretchen Wieners.

[Ariana Grande]

Yeah. And I would say in the movie, it's more that they imply more that, like, gossip is just sort of her weakness, but she is not her weapon. Whereas with Sylvia, it is her weapon.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Yeah.

[Ariana Grande]

But also it ends up becoming her downfall. Like it's hoisted by armpitard.

[Cynthia Erivo]

And she has. There's an excellent scene at the top of Act 2, which is not in the film, sadly, because of Hayes code. Probably. Yeah. But she's just given birth to her fifth child, something like that. And she's grumpily breastfeeding and smoking whilst doing it and having it out with the nurse who isn't helping her. And is it Peggy that comes to visit her?

[Ariana Grande]

Peggy comes to visit.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Peggy comes to visit.

[Ariana Grande]

Oh.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Which is how we find out, I think, that Mary is going to Reno in the play. This is where that exposition is given. But there's a great moment where. Oh, my God. Peggy leans over to look at the baby whom Edith is holding. And she says, what's that on the baby's nose? And she goes, what? Oh, that's ash. And blows cigarette ash off of the baby's face. This poor child is. I don't know that it's gonna be neglect, but it is going to have the freest. It's gonna have the most freedom of any of her children.

[Ariana Grande]

Well, the play acknowledges that these women don't really raise their kids. Even Mary, her daughter is like. Her daughter was asking her, like, you know, what does her mom do? And she's like, well, I raise you and your brother. She's like, no, you don't. Right.

[Cynthia Erivo]

The nanny, house staff.

[Ariana Grande]

Yeah. And she's like. And she's like, don't get me wrong. I love you. You're a great mother. Quote unquote. You know, like, you're around, you're swell. She's like, but we got people who raise me.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Yeah.

[Ariana Grande]

It's like, I see. I see you every other day.

[Cynthia Erivo]

I get how it works, Mom.

[Ariana Grande]

Yeah. Like, Mary Haynes is a good mother in context of 1936 high society. But how we would consider good mothers, Mary would be considered distant.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Yes.

[Ariana Grande]

Yeah. Like, to her friends, Mary is considered overly involved in her kid's life, and she's actually more involved with her kid's life in the movie. Probably because Norma Shearer was like, I want my first scene to be me and my daughter riding horses. And that's how we bond. Right. Because if anything makes my character seem more approachable, it's that we have two houses, and in the second house we ride horses.

[Cynthia Erivo]

It's very relatable.

[Ariana Grande]

Yeah. Again, it all comes back to writing, Adam.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Indeed.

[Ariana Grande]

Yes. I think Claire Boothe Luce watched that scene, and she was like, I'm gonna meet roald Dahl in 25 years. I'm getting ideas.

[Cynthia Erivo]

I think you're right.

[Ariana Grande]

Let's talk about Sylvia. But before we do that, let's take another break. You didn't, like, Eat My Chocolate Factory, Daddy. That was a good one. All right. Okay, here we go. Yeah. And we're Biak. So there's a big baddie here.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Yeah.

[Ariana Grande]

Her name is Sylvia Fowler.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Oh, she's great.

[Ariana Grande]

She's great. And we'll talk a little bit also about her comeuppance with the character of Miriam Arends.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Oh, right. We have to get to Miriam. Yeah.

[Ariana Grande]

Miriam's fun. Played by Paulette Goddard in the movie. I don't know who plays her in the Roundabout Revival.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Not somebody I was familiar with.

[Ariana Grande]

No.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Oh, sorry. We're Sucking on mints. If anybody's gonna complain about mouth sounds.

[Ariana Grande]

Sorry, misophonia. Yeah, you're sucking on a mint.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Mm.

[Ariana Grande]

I'm sucking on Roald Dahl on his bf.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Oh, is that.

[Ariana Grande]

Who's over there? That's his. Guys. Guess who's not dead.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Back from the grave, kids.

[Ariana Grande]

Yeah, listen, people say that they can't. We say that people can't change. But Roald Dahl and I have become very intimate. And he used to be an anti Semite. So I'm just saying hand in hand, if we can live together, Jewish or not, it's all the same great. Black or white, we shouldn't kill each other. Cause it's lame. That's South Park. Thank you. So Sylvia is the quote unquote, best frenemy of Mary.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Mm.

[Ariana Grande]

If you watch the movie, it's Rosalind Russell and her what is great. And I think it's her first comedic role.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Oh, was it really?

[Ariana Grande]

So, yes, There is a YouTube channel that I sometimes watch. It's called Tired Old Queen. At the movie movies, it's Steve something or other.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Bushemi.

[Ariana Grande]

No, he plays the stand up comic in Trick. I'm forgetting his name.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Oh, I can picture him.

[Ariana Grande]

It might even be Haynes. Like H A Y N E S.

[Cynthia Erivo]

I can picture him.

[Ariana Grande]

Yes, he. I bring him up because I learned a little something about him that will come in handy when we talk about the, like, one major discord question. But he talked about how they were gonna go with the actress who did it on Broadway. And not many of the Broadway cast did the movie. Most of them who did the movie are like in small roles, like the manicurist and things like that. They were gonna go with the Broadway actress. Cause we got Norma Shearer, we got Joan Crawford and a couple of other actresses. We're good on marquee names. And Rosalind Russell really fought for it. And George Kukor, who was a very famous women's director, said, well, Rosalind, you don't do comedy. And she's like, eh, I can do comedy. And so she apparently auditioned just like, oh, I don't. She's like, oh, I don't.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Watch me.

[Ariana Grande]

She said, sit your gay ass down, Georg, and watch me. And then she apparently auditioned and did the Sylvia scene like 12 different ways, like distinct ways. And then I guess, like the biggest way was when the George Kukor was like, oh, I like that one. She was like, george. I had like all these nuanced takes. You go for the cartoon and he says, yes, because you are breaking up a marriage. You are like, hurting this child's family's future. And you were doing all these manipulative, terrible things. The only way the audience is gonna want to keep watching you is if you were ridiculous. And that is ultimately, I think, the template that people go with for Sylvia now, because at the root of it, Sylvia is, first of all, she's very self conscious and vain and delicate. She's got a very fragile ego, but she is a vindictive cunt.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Oh, yeah. Big, big, big time.

[Ariana Grande]

Big time. T W A T.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Well, it's. I was gonna. I was gonna. I didn't know when I was gonna bring this up, but it's. It was interesting in revisiting all of this material in its different forms of how, like, I don't know if a remake of this would happen now. For a few reasons, but also just because we have Housewives. And I'm not. I am not a. I'm not really a watcher of Housewives. I was when they first started, but I'm familiar enough with everything to know just sort of all of the levels of drama and crap that they do to each other. And it feels very much like the women.

[Ariana Grande]

Yeah. Yeah. Not as. I mean, well, I guess as quotable, because people quote them all the time.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Yeah.

[Ariana Grande]

But not as refined. No. But just as messy and otherworldly in a way. Because I think the thing about the women, it's sort of. Again, it's before we had Dallas and Dynasty and, you know, because we had rich people plays and we had comedies and we had, like, Oscar Wilde wit, but we didn't have women of high society on stage being ruthlessly cunty to each other in a way that the women is. And it is really the grandmama of all of the divas being assholes that we love. It's why we were talking about this in the Wicked episode with me and Joel of, like, why we love watching women be bad. Mm. Which ties us into the movies that you saw at. With Hedda Lettuce of the Bad Seed.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Ariana Grande]

Valley of the Dolls. What was the other ones?

[Cynthia Erivo]

Whatever happened to Baby Jane? Bad Seed. I mean, any. Yeah.

[Ariana Grande]

All of those women behaving.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Lots of Joan Crawford.

[Ariana Grande]

Mo Women behaving badly and doing it while being quotable.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Mm.

[Ariana Grande]

It's.

[Cynthia Erivo]

And usually looking fabulous.

[Ariana Grande]

Yeah. Well, why do you think the gays love Evita, the musical?

[Cynthia Erivo]

Right.

[Ariana Grande]

I said this before. It's Dynasty meets Gypsy. You have the pipes of Ethel Merman and the bitchiness of Joan Collins with the furs and the heels, and it's somebody who society has told to be demure and quiet. Being loud and obnoxious and usually getting their way and looking like a million. Looking like a million dollars while doing it. It's the ultimate fan is having a.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Fur slapped on you by a chorus boy.

[Ariana Grande]

Yep. Just hurting your arms, bruising your biceps. It's why we all. It's why Samantha Jones is everyone's favorite Sex and the City character. Because. Well, not that she always looks fabulous. Kim Catchall is a beautiful woman and she so painfully thin in that show. But like sometimes they dress her in ways from like are we in book a rattan. But. But when she's dressed well and she says a line that like cuts, it's. It's amazing. Who doesn't want to look like a million dollars and say the exact right thing at the exact right moment and be able to walk away, leaving everyone speechless?

[Cynthia Erivo]

Right. It's a lot of mic drops and flipping of hair.

[Ariana Grande]

Yeah. No, I want to have so many mic drops without having to be held responsible for the damages to the mic.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Right.

[Ariana Grande]

So present day societe is mic drops. And then you kind of have to pay for the ramifications afterwards.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Right.

[Ariana Grande]

True. The women valley of the duels dynasty bitchiness is mic drop and the other person has to pay the damages for the mic.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Right.

[Ariana Grande]

That is how you know you are the one.

[Cynthia Erivo]

I'm not paying for that. No, you made me say this. You can pay for it.

[Ariana Grande]

Oops. Look what you made me do. Look what you just made me do. Look what you just made me do. I don't think that's the exact right way to do that. But who cares? That's like it's a B minus level Taylor Swift. Even if she is memorable and catchy. But. And even she would admit that. But Sylvia is not fabulous. No, she's hilarious. Yes, she's memorable, but she's not fabulous.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Well, one of the things, one of the bits of business that they give Rosalind Russell in the film that I find so interesting is that she's often knitting. Like when they go to the fashion show. She's sitting in the front row but she's knitting while she's watching it.

[Ariana Grande]

Well. Cause she isn't classy.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Right.

[Ariana Grande]

Yeah.

[Cynthia Erivo]

I just think it's an interesting choice to add to her.

[Ariana Grande]

Sylvia is someone who clearly was probably not born into high society but was born close enough to it. So when she married up, it was an easy transition enough for her. But she doesn't have any of the suaveness that everyone else around her does.

[Cynthia Erivo]

No, but she will ask to speak to the manager.

[Ariana Grande]

Oh, she will absolutely speak to the manager. For. She will try on a couture dress incorrectly ripping a seam and then speak to the manager because the sales girl put it on her poorly. Right.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Well, that happens.

[Ariana Grande]

She.

[Cynthia Erivo]

She literally takes the. There's the one model when they're. When they go to the dress showroom and she manhandles the model who says and says that you don't wear it like this, you wear it like this. This goes here and this goes here. But you find out that she's kind of vindictive toward this woman because this woman has been flirting with her husband, which kind of clues you into ultimately what will happen to Sylvia down the line.

[Ariana Grande]

Yes. The thing about Sylvia is that she is clearly jealous of everything that Mary has because Mary is wealthier than Sylvia. Her husband is more attractive than Sylvia. People like Mary more than they like Sylvia. She seems more content. And so when this bit of gossip happens with Steven, she cannot wait to.

[Cynthia Erivo]

It's finally something about Mary that's not perfect.

[Ariana Grande]

Exactly. And it makes her so happy because Sylvia is. Sylvia is a Regina George in Gretchen Wieners station. And it kills her.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Yeah, that's accurate.

[Ariana Grande]

Yeah. She can never be the queen bee. Probably because she'll never be the richest. Probably because she also, again, in my mind, she was not born into high society. She was one level below and married into it. And thus can never truly be at the crown. The only way you can be at the crown is if you just become so undeniably rich. Everyone has to flock to you. But that's never gonna happen for her.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Mm.

[Ariana Grande]

And Mary is just naturally. All of that. And so even if, like, she doesn't have any reason to hate Mary, she still kind of does. Even if she's like, kind of still her friend, if only because Mary is just so. It's hard. You don't want to betray Mary because she just has too many connections, but ultimately she does because it just. Too many things pile up and she makes too many mean spirited choices against her, which Mary eventually has the wool pulled out from under her eye over her eyes to recognize that. But Sylvia. Sylvia's the one who indirectly informs her about Crystal. She's the one who tells her go into that other room and tell her off. She's the one who fucking tells her, like, oh, when you were in Bermuda, she was spending every day with Steven and met your kids.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Right. Well, and I remember you mentioned it a little bit ago, but the fact that rather than Just say, I was getting my nails done and this woman told me this. She decides to totally backdoor it and send Mary to the manicurist specifically, just so she can get the gossip. From the woman. Yeah, from the woman. Instead of, as a caring friend to say, I don't want to think that this is true, but this was said to me and I feel that I, as your friend, I should give you a heads up. And instead she's like, eh, I'll let her get the gossip the same way I did and see how she deals.

[Ariana Grande]

Cuz Sylvia has no problem telling the rest of their friends.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Oh, right. She's told all of the. So all the friends know before Mary has any idea.

[Ariana Grande]

Exactly.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Who then finds out indirectly through the manicurist.

[Ariana Grande]

And Mary's even aware of what. Mary understands what Sylvia did when she goes to the manicurist and finds out. Because when the manicurist, when she walks away, she goes. Manicurist goes, I thought you came for all of Mrs. Fowler's friends come for. And she goes, I think I just got what all of Mrs. Fowler's friends come for.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Mm. Hot goss.

[Ariana Grande]

The hot goss. She knows. She understands that everyone's come to this woman for this, and that's why Sylvia sent her. And it's. And it's definitely the first crack in the foundation of their friendship. And Sylvia is also the one who kind of needles Mary towards divorce while also trying to play both sides. Because no matter what Mary does, Sylvia wants to be the one who's like, I told you that was the right decision. Because she'd be like, I mean, Steven's an absolute lass, but he does adore you. Well, he's very fond of you. And like. And then that Crystal girl is absolutely nothing. But also, you should be very careful.

[Cynthia Erivo]

She. I mean, Sylvia is the queen of the backhanded compliment, because she can never say anything totally nice to somebody because there are a couple. I can't remember the specific lines, but the number of times where she'll lightly compliment Mary but also tear her down as soon as she's done. She'll be like, this dress looks great on you. Although it could have looked better if xyz.

[Ariana Grande]

But she literally says to Edith, when she's giving the gossip about Steven, she goes, I was at Michael's getting my hair done. I really want you to go there too, babe. Whoever does your hair is terrible.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Right?

[Ariana Grande]

Like, she goes, I despise whoever does your hair. And in the movie they allow Edith to be like, oh, I know. I hate it right now, but in the play, Edith just fucking takes it. Right, but so, Sylvia, all of this happens, right? And it culminates in. As Mary's in Reno, and in the movie, she meets the Countess and this.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Other chick, Miriam Abrams.

[Ariana Grande]

Miriam. Miriam Aarons.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Aarons.

[Ariana Grande]

Miriam Aarons. On the train to Reno.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Yes.

[Ariana Grande]

And we find out that the Countess has been married four different times. First guy died and left her everything because she was an A. First grade schlemiel.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Yeah.

[Ariana Grande]

And are we.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Are we introing Countess and Miriam now so we can tie in the Sylvia bit of the plot?

[Ariana Grande]

That's 1,000%.

[Cynthia Erivo]

I just want to make sure I'm on your train to Reno.

[Ariana Grande]

Yeah. Thank you so much. Miriam is an ex chorus girl who got. Who I guess, like, married someone. Like, not high society, but, like higher up than a chorus girl. And she's going to Reno to get divorced. And we learned that. So the Countess is someone who basically, like, is in love with love. She gets married, the guy leaves her, she's heartbroken for all of a week, and she finds somebody else.

[Cynthia Erivo]

So she's in the play. She's introduced far earlier.

[Ariana Grande]

Yes. In the beauty salon. In the movie, we don't meet her until the train to Reno. And in the play, there is no scene on the train to Reno. We just are in Reno and we meet all the people that Mary has met.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Do we meet Miriam before? No, we just meet her at the ranch.

[Ariana Grande]

Got it.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Couldn't remember.

[Ariana Grande]

Yes, exactly. So Mary meets Miriam and the Countess. Countess. L'amour. L'amour. That's French for love. And again, love's love. She's getting her second divorce. Third divorce.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Third divorce. She's moving on to her fourth.

[Ariana Grande]

Yes. What did she say she was like? We were skiing in the Alps and he pushed me down the mountain. And as I was tumbling down, that's when I realized he no longer loved me.

[Cynthia Erivo]

When I was halfway down, that's when I realized he no longer loved me. Then she falls directly into the arms.

[Ariana Grande]

Of her new husband.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Husband.

[Ariana Grande]

And again, she's like, l'amour, l'amour. Miriam. We find out she's divorcing her guy.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Oh, I should.

[Ariana Grande]

Sorry.

[Cynthia Erivo]

One other thing. Because in the. They even changed it for the Roundabout revival with where the Countess doesn't appear in the baby parlor scene, but the lines are still the same. But at one point, she talks about how she's 42 and she walks out of the scene and they're all like. She's at least 50.

[Ariana Grande]

Like, it's.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Yeah. The Countess is Very much trying to extend her youth as long as she can.

[Ariana Grande]

Yes. The Countess thinks that she is younger than she is. She acts younger than she is. She tends to marry younger men.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Yeah.

[Ariana Grande]

And because she's so wealthy, people let her get away with it. And she has a title. It's like a kind of bogus title, but it is a title.

[Cynthia Erivo]

And it's from her most recent marriage, though, isn't it? Isn't her third husband. That's the count, maybe.

[Ariana Grande]

Well, her most recent marriage would be the fourth one before Buck. Okay, so. And in terms. And there's rumors in that the count is actually gay. So it's like a beard marriage, right?

[Cynthia Erivo]

Oh, right. They say he's a fairy or something. Something along those lines.

[Ariana Grande]

Yes. Both the movie and the play refer to it, but they use different verbiage. And actually, no, no, because they use the same line in the movie, but it's about somebody else. But it's the same thing. But, yes, in the movie, the Countess doesn't show up till the train. In the Roundabout revival, she doesn't show up till Reno. In the play, she's there early in the beauty parlor when Mary goes to get her nails done and gets all the gossip. And, yeah, she's getting her hair done. She's getting, like, her skin tightened. She wants. She's learning what mud masks are. So now she wants a mud mask. And, yeah, she says, like, oh, I'm 42, and I just. I want to be able to, you know, look a few years younger than my age. And she walks out and they're like, she's at least 50 or 55, and, like, she gets another hair dye job. Like, she's gonna.

[Cynthia Erivo]

It's gonna fall out.

[Ariana Grande]

Yeah. Like, she's gonna have no hair in her head. And they're all like. And by the way, she sheds like a banshee.

[Cynthia Erivo]

If I kept my hair natural like you, I'd be bald.

[Ariana Grande]

Exactly. Thank you, Vera. But so Countess is. They all go to Reno. And wouldn't you know it? As soon as the Countess gets to Reno, that's when she falls for a rodeo hand, Buck Winston, who.

[Cynthia Erivo]

She.

[Ariana Grande]

Who's much younger but very hot and for some reason likes the Countess. And so they get married, and flash forward two years later, she turns him into a movie radio star, and he falls for Crystal. That's aside Miriam, the showgirl, she's getting divorced because she's found a new man, a richer man, and she won't say who.

[Cynthia Erivo]

This is actually my favorite bit of drama in the Entire show.

[Ariana Grande]

It's great. Well, it's also. And it happens so quickly in the play. It's a little more drawn out in the movie. You get the information earlier in the movie. Yes.

[Cynthia Erivo]

You find out who it is prior to the incident, where in the play the information is revealed.

[Ariana Grande]

Yes, exactly. So let's go with the one that's better in the movie.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Yeah.

[Ariana Grande]

Miriam reveals to Mary and the Countess that she has been having an affair with Sylvia's husband, Mr. Fowler. Howard Fowler.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Howard Fowler.

[Ariana Grande]

And that he plans to divorce Sylvia for her, but she's gotta get divorced first. And so all's well and good in the hood and everyone's having actually really lovely time in Reno. And Peggy shows up as well. And Peggy's not happy, but whatever. When is Peggy ever happy? And Sylvia.

[Cynthia Erivo]

And Peggy. She's truly an Peggy.

[Ariana Grande]

And Peggy. Yeah. If ever there was an end Peggy.

[Cynthia Erivo]

It's literally Peggy.

[Ariana Grande]

It's really literally. There's no bigger Peggy than Peggy.

[Cynthia Erivo]

She out Peggy's. And Peggy.

[Ariana Grande]

She really does out Peggy. And Peggy. That is. She's.

[Cynthia Erivo]

And. And Peggy.

[Ariana Grande]

She'S. Asterisk. Peggy.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Asterisk.

[Ariana Grande]

And Peggy, she's an at risk asterisk.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Oh, my God.

[Ariana Grande]

I don't even know what that means, but I'm proud of it.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Sounds great.

[Ariana Grande]

Thank you so much.

[Cynthia Erivo]

I'm proud of you.

[Ariana Grande]

I feel like that's most quippy dialogue is. I don't even know what that means, but I'm proud of it. But. So they're all in Reno now. And who shows up but fucking Sylvia Fowler? Because Howard is divorcing her because he also has found out that she's been cheating on him. And he's like. He's like, let's just. We're gonna make this happen.

[Cynthia Erivo]

He's like, this is a one way street. You can't cheat on me.

[Ariana Grande]

And basically says, I'll give you the option of divorcing me if you go to. And go to Reno. He's like, that is like the one gift I'll give you. He's like, otherwise I'm divorcing you. And you get absolutely nothing. So she goes to Reno and informs everybody of everything. And apparently the gossip columns show up in Reno that day that say, then Miriam's the one who's stealing Howard away from Sylvia.

[Cynthia Erivo]

And she happens to be standing right there, right there.

[Ariana Grande]

She reads it, she clocks. She sees that it's Miriam. And one of the lines that's in the play that I'm glad is in the movie is because, like, Sylvia is getting some money from Howard. Like, she's not going away penniless, but basically, like, the whole reason is, like, Howard already wants to be done with Sylvia. She's giving him this out, and he's like, basically, like, whatever it takes to make you go away. Like, here it is. And Sylvia is, like, going on and on about, like, Miriam being, like, a floozy and a gold digger and a slut and all these things. And. And Miriam's like, you're just angry because Howard's paying you whatever it takes to go away, and he's paying whatever it takes to keep me. I'm saying the line incorrectly, but it's something along those lines.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Yeah, that's pretty close.

[Ariana Grande]

Yes. And they go into a giant cat fight.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Oh, it's so good.

[Ariana Grande]

Resulting in Sylvia biting Miriam on the leg. And they go, there's iodine in the house. And she's like, I need a rabies shot. It's phenomenal.

[Cynthia Erivo]

It's great.

[Ariana Grande]

And so what I like about the movie, how they do this, is that Miriam actually becomes. And she's. I would argue that Miriam becomes a good friend to Mary in the play as well. Yes. It's a more cynical lens, because Mary more openly is like, I don't really like or trust women anymore. And, like, who I have around me is, like, the least worst of the bunch.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Yeah. I mean, Miriam is. While she did, you know, while she did cheat with Sylvia's husband, she's the least vindictive of anybody.

[Ariana Grande]

Yeah. She didn't do it to speak. Despite Sylvia, she and Howard get along. She also is aware that Howard is miserable with Sylvia. Howard with Sylvia is what Steven is with Crystal. He's drinking himself into oblivion. And she even says to Mary, because Mary's like, oh, you need a man who really needs you. And Miriam's like, yeah, he needs me. Without me, he's going to drink himself to death. And I'm the only one that can get him out of it. And he is a sweetheart down to his core. So, like, I'm gonna get out of him. And there's a. They cut the line in the movie, but in the play, she talks about how two years later, she's like, she's doing the greatest reconstruction job on him of all time. And they keep that line in the movie, but they cut the second half. Cause she was like, we're already on, like, the next stage of his drinking progress. And, like, oh, like, what's the progress? She goes, well, now he puts ice in it.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Oh, right. There are actually A lot of really good drink jokes in the. And in the movie. But there's like, getting a Bromo but with gin.

[Ariana Grande]

Yeah, give me a. Yes, a Bromo with. Put some gin in it. But so I would say Miriam in the movie. Mary kind of has a much more healthy circle of friends in the second half of the movie because of, like, it's like the Reno brigade. They all. They all bond over their divorces and their trauma and all this other stuff.

[Cynthia Erivo]

And like, they're just like doing peyote and Reno together.

[Ariana Grande]

Exactly. Peggy is a. Is in a happier place after the. After the baby. And so she and. And Johnny are happier now. Edith is, like, kind of severed ties with Sylvia because Sylvia also, like, has severed ties with all of them. And it turns out, like, she's really kind of the toxic apple that's been ruining the bunch.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Correct.

[Ariana Grande]

Because Edith becomes a better friend when Sylvia's cut out. And Miriam is like, a genuine friend. And even the Countess is a good.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Friend to me because Edith and Peggy are close.

[Ariana Grande]

Yes. I would say. I think that Edith. I feel like Edith is the second best friend to all of them and the best friend to none of them.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Yeah.

[Ariana Grande]

Does that make sense? Because, like, I would. I would argue Peggy probably would say that Mary's her best friend. And I would say that like Sylvia would say that she was. That Sylvia would say that she was Mary's best friend, but maybe Mary wasn't her best friend.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Right.

[Ariana Grande]

Yeah. You know what I mean?

[Cynthia Erivo]

I do, yeah.

[Ariana Grande]

Yeah. No, Edith is like the ultimate second tier gal.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Yes.

[Ariana Grande]

Yeah. She's always invited. She's not usually top of the list.

[Cynthia Erivo]

So. So then we have.

[Ariana Grande]

Oh.

[Cynthia Erivo]

So moving Sylvia forward, combining her story with Crystal, so the two of them end up sort of becoming friends.

[Ariana Grande]

When Sylvia cuts herself out of that friend group, she latches onto Crystal mostly.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Just so she can stay in that world.

[Ariana Grande]

Yeah. Because Crystal has done pretty well for herself, considering she's the second wife that started in an affair. She's. Steven's been doing well. They're well kept. And it seems that society has mostly welcomed her, if maybe not with open arms. They haven't totally shunned her, from what I gather.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Yeah. No, it doesn't seem like she's been ostracized at all.

[Ariana Grande]

Yeah.

[Cynthia Erivo]

So two years pass and we discover Crystal in a bathtub on the phone with who we find out is, in fact Buck.

[Ariana Grande]

Yes.

[Cynthia Erivo]

The Countess is. Are they married at that point? Yes.

[Ariana Grande]

Fifth husband and now officially a star.

[Cynthia Erivo]

So. And she's having a flirtmance with him. I don't know if they've actually officially made anything happen. I think they have.

[Ariana Grande]

No, they have. No, they have.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Have they?

[Ariana Grande]

Yes. Cause she said the line in the movie, she says, lord knows we've been discreet. Yes, that's right. You're right.

[Cynthia Erivo]

You're right, you're right.

[Ariana Grande]

And in the play, they talk about the Gothic apartments. Cause that's where they go in and out of. And the Gothic apartments are notorious for affairs. Oh, right.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Because she finds the key to the apartment. Yes.

[Ariana Grande]

Sylvia finds the key to the apartment.

[Cynthia Erivo]

So in this scene with the bathtub, Crystal's in the bathtub and on the phone with Buck and little Mary Jr, who's staying with Steven while. Oh, no, Reno's over at this point.

[Ariana Grande]

Yes, Reno's been.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Yeah, but she's staying with her. She's staying with Steven for the weekend. Overhears Crystal on the phone and gets a sense that something's going down. Yeah. And Crystal has had a private phone line installed in this area of the house so she can keep up her shenanigans.

[Ariana Grande]

Exactly.

[Cynthia Erivo]

And Crystal discovers that little Mary is standing there and kind of knows that she knows and sort of threatens her. But I don't know, she doesn't really threaten her. She does a weak job of keeping Mary from tattling.

[Ariana Grande]

She tries to confront her. She tries to be sweet at first, but it's not in her nature. And then she's basically just like, why.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Don'T you supposed to call me Auntie Crystal?

[Ariana Grande]

And then she's basically just like, you fucking little brat. Why don't you like me? She's like, I've done everything I could to be nice to you. And, like, God bless Mary. She's like, I have been perfectly pleasant to you, Crystal. I really have. Because my mother told me to always be polite to you because you're married to my father. And she's like. And I think that I have actually been very well behaved, considering you are terrible.

[Cynthia Erivo]

The number of times in that scene that little Mary is basically like, I said, good day.

[Ariana Grande]

Yep.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Good day to you. And Krystal will be like, before you leave, I just need to say one more thing to you. And she's like, good day. Goodbye.

[Ariana Grande]

Goodbye.

[Cynthia Erivo]

I gotta go. Yeah, leaving. Gonna rat your ass out.

[Ariana Grande]

Well, also, it's just like. It's a matter of. I hate to say good breeding, but, like, good manners being shown to this girl in terms of like. Of just learn to hold your ground, do not speak too much. And just, like, take the high road. Take the high road. And she does ultimately, like. And she chooses her words very carefully because all she has to say to Crystal is when Crystal's like, I'll report you to your father. And little Mary just goes, daddy doesn't think you're special anymore, actually. No, sorry. In the play, she says. She goes, daddy doesn't think you're. That you're so wonderful, that you're as wonderful anymore. And in the movie, she says, daddy doesn't think you're so special anymore. And. And then her final line is, and by the way, I think this bathroom is perfectly ridiculous. Good day.

[Cynthia Erivo]

And then walks away, and then is quickly followed by Sylvia, who comes in.

[Ariana Grande]

Yes. So in the play, Sylvia realizes what's been going. No. Sylvia sees a key to the Gothic apartments, and she asks Krystal what's up. And Krystal blows it off. She goes, oh, that's received when I used to go before the marriage, and I keep it for sentimental reasons. And then Sylvia doesn't really think much of it after, because in the play, Sylvia doesn't know about Buck, right? Yeah. It's revealed to her from Mary in the bathroom in the final scene, Right. In the movie, Crystal goes to take a shower, and the phone rings again, and it's Buck, who's been drinking gin. And we learn when Buck drinks gin, he starts to blabber. And Sylvia picks it up and she starts howling. She says, buck Winston was singing love songs into your phone. Crystal, you dog.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Oh. Cause there's a running sort of yippee ki yi yay song joke. It's in the play, but it's used more.

[Ariana Grande]

It's used better in the movie.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Yeah.

[Ariana Grande]

And Crystal even says to Sylvia, she's like, chris. She goes, sylvia Fowler, you've got nothing on me. And Sylvia, to her credit, she's like, why do I care if I have anything on you? She's like, my life is better if you are still with Stephen. She's like, I will say nothing. She's like, I'm just telling you. I know. And, like, be careful.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Check yourself.

[Ariana Grande]

Yeah. Yeah. She's like, don't be messy. She's like, get your zhuzh. Because she even says, like, early, before she finds out that she and Buck are fucking, she's saying, like, oh, he's like the chambermaid's delight. Meaning, like, I don't find him attractive, but I understand that the common woman finds him hot, which Krystal takes offense to.

[Cynthia Erivo]

It just means he's rugged.

[Ariana Grande]

Yeah.

[Cynthia Erivo]

He's a cowboy.

[Ariana Grande]

Yeah. I'm sure everyone in this room, no matter your affiliation, would see Buck Winston and be like, we'd see his bfg.

[Cynthia Erivo]

And we'd say, that is Big Friendly Giant.

[Ariana Grande]

And we would say, that is a fantastic Mr. Fox you have.

[Cynthia Erivo]

I'm no twit.

[Ariana Grande]

You want to break my glass elevator. The women may have broken the glass ceiling, but Buck Winston can break my glass elevator.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Buck, what's your real name? James. What a giant peach you have. There we go. Okay, moving on.

[Ariana Grande]

Moving on. It's gonna keep. It's the gift that keeps on giving.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Mm.

[Ariana Grande]

But, yeah, it's. Yeah, he's rugged. He's not, like, a classy man. So it's not like she's jealous of her for being with Buck or anything like that. It's just she's like, yeah, like, you want to get dicked down? Because she even says in the play, she was like, she. In the play. In the movie, she has a psychoanalyst who she blabs everything to, and he's a total fraud, and she's, like, kind of secretly in love with him. And there's a great line in the play that's not in the movie where she was like, steven has a guilt complex. That's what my therapist says, that he has a guilt complex. And he married you so that way he could justify having an affair with you so he doesn't seem like a sexual monster. And Crystal goes, if Steven's a sexual monster, then psychoanalysis is really over. It's like, that man is not a sex monster. No, no. But so in the play, in the movie, basically what happens is older Mary and young Mary are in bed, and old Mary's, like, all content with her book and reading, hasn't washed yet. And little Mary asks her, like, why would someone need a phone in their bathroom? Why Crystal has one in her bathroom. She's talking to someone kind of lovey dovey. Don't know what that was about. And then she also makes it more clear in the movie that Steven's super, like, miserable with Crystal.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Oh, right.

[Ariana Grande]

Whereas in the play, she's like. He doesn't say it, but I can tell. But in the movie, she's like, I watch him in his study with his head in his hands while Crystal plays solitaire, like, with a radio on, which is like. I just imagine that image. I'm like, oh, poor Steven.

[Cynthia Erivo]

How sad.

[Ariana Grande]

How sad. But I just love that. I love that that's the catalyst, because she's like, why would someone need a phone in their bathroom? And Mary's antenna goes up. She's like, crystal's doing something. And she goes, and if I know, who would know? It's gonna be Sylvia. So I'm gonna set a trap.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Yeah, I gotta get Sylvia back in the mix just to get the info in.

[Ariana Grande]

And so the movie does a much better job of Mary scheming because whereas in the play it's more sort of like she just kind of keeps causing chaos till something happens.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Yes.

[Ariana Grande]

And in the movie she's like, I know who I need the information from and I know exactly which hill to roll the rock down.

[Cynthia Erivo]

It's a great setup at the end of the film. Yes, it does wrap everything up nicely in a neat little package.

[Ariana Grande]

Exactly. And maybe it's because it's a stupid shrink wrapped Hollywood movie with Hayes code, but it's just better constructed.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Yeah, it 100% is.

[Ariana Grande]

Yeah. Because the reveal comes from Sylvia officially of just Mary playing her like a damn fiddle. And then they even get the physical comedy for being in the closet. Can you imagine the good physical comedy Kristen Johnson could have done if they had done that closet bit in the Roundabout revival? Great. It would have been just like her falling out of the window in Sex and the City. Splat.

[Cynthia Erivo]

And her character is not totally unlike that character, the way she plays Sylvia, but just with a transatlantic accent.

[Ariana Grande]

I would argue that none of them in that Roundabout production. Okay, here's what we're going to do. Here's what we're going to fucking do. We're going to talk about that Roundabout revival arrival after this break. And we're back. Okay, so the Women has only been on Broadway three times. Originally in 1936, where it ran for 666 performance in the 1970s. I want to say 72, like right.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Before or somewhere around there.

[Ariana Grande]

72 or 74.

[Cynthia Erivo]

It was either right before 74 sounds right.

[Ariana Grande]

Yeah, it was either right before Follies or right after Follies. Because Alexis Smith, I believe, played Sylvia.

[Cynthia Erivo]

It was 74. It was after Follies.

[Ariana Grande]

Okay. She played Sylvia. Who else is in? It was.

[Cynthia Erivo]

That's not the infamous Elaine Stritch production.

[Ariana Grande]

No, that was like a random barge champion.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Yeah, that was like summer stock somewhere. Probably.

[Ariana Grande]

By God, she's finished. I believe that was a regional production.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Okay.

[Ariana Grande]

Yeah, somebody big was married. Was it Barbara Bel Geddes or someone like that?

[Cynthia Erivo]

There were a few good names in that production, but I. Yeah, the point.

[Ariana Grande]

Is that the third time, the third and final time the Women was done on Broadway, it was 2001 at the roundabout and it starred Cynthia Nixon as Mary Haynes, Jennifer Tilly as Crystal Allen, Kristen Johnston as Sylvia Fowler, Amy Ryan.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Amy Ryan as Peggy.

[Ariana Grande]

Yes. Yep. Jennifer Coolidge as Edith, Mary Louise Wilson as Mary's mother, Pepsi Girl as Mary's.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Daughter, Heather Matarazzo as a maid.

[Ariana Grande]

Yes. As. Yes. And then also Julie Halston. Julie Halston, yeah. Doing blackface. And then who's.

[Cynthia Erivo]

But not really.

[Ariana Grande]

Well, okay, so the joke is that we were. So Adam and I were talking about this because the whole thing is directed by Scott Elliott, who was, like, considered this young up and coming director in the 90s. And every time he would do Broadway wouldn't go well. And I say this because he would.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Always do edgy takes on things that were not quite there.

[Ariana Grande]

Yes. He would take classics and do an edgy take on it, and it didn't work. And Ben Brantley talks about this in his review for the Women. If you read it, Basically, he's like, every time Elliot does something off Broadway, it's great. He's like, every time he comes to Broadway, I can't explain it to you. It just doesn't work. He also says, scott Elliot, touch of full frontal nudity every time. Because apparently he did it in the present. Laughter as well. I'm like, where are you going to? Through full frontal nudity and present laughter.

[Cynthia Erivo]

I didn't see that production, so I couldn't tell you.

[Ariana Grande]

Listen, I know that Noel Coward likes Dong, but, like, nothing about a Noel Coward play screams dong to me, you know?

[Cynthia Erivo]

Mm.

[Ariana Grande]

And you're talking to somebody. Like, if he could find a way to put Dong in hello Dolly, he would.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Hello, Dongy.

[Ariana Grande]

Hello, Dongy. Gross. Take off your Sunday clothes. I say.

[Cynthia Erivo]

You put your hand in, wear ribbons down.

[Ariana Grande]

Shoot those ribbons all up and down my back.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Oh, my God.

[Ariana Grande]

God. Can you believe that I'm the second most streamed podcast on the Broadway Podcast Network.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Congratulations.

[Ariana Grande]

Thank you so much.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Spotify numbers just came out today.

[Ariana Grande]

They sure did. Yeah. I'm number two on Spotify. Probably number one on, like, Mega FM or something. Something fourth, right? Yeah. But it's because of all the children who listen to this and go to their parents and go, mommy, Daddy, what does it mean to shoot ribbons all up and down someone's back?

[Cynthia Erivo]

Oh, man. Yeah. Don't ask your parents again how far we've come.

[Ariana Grande]

In the 1930s, kids used to ask you, mommy, why would a person need a phone in their bathroom? And now they're like, mommy, what's a cum dumpster?

[Cynthia Erivo]

What's pegging.

[Ariana Grande]

Mommy, what does it Mean to have a third. Why would someone want to be spun around naked on a lazy Susan? Sorry, I don't mean to name drop, but I was telling a Remus the other day, like, that's my favorite. Whenever I think of Stark Sands, I think of that quote from Die, Mommy, Die.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Which one?

[Ariana Grande]

The he's telling Charles Bush that he was accused of hosting a gay orgy in the faculty lounge of his college, that they found him in the faculty lounge naked, being spun around on a lazy Susan. I'm like, that's how I prefer to think of Stark Sands whenever I can. But that's also my go to. Whenever I think of something very slutty, it's just like, put me naked on a lazy Susan and spin me around, baby.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Not dealing with cannibalism on a lifeboat.

[Ariana Grande]

I said it before on my review podcast when you told me that you were swallowing stock Sands. This is not what I thought you meant. I thought that was clever too.

[Cynthia Erivo]

But so salty.

[Ariana Grande]

Yeah, but so in 2001. So who's the motor mouth Mabel of Hairspray?

[Cynthia Erivo]

Oh, Mary Bond Davis.

[Ariana Grande]

She's in it.

[Cynthia Erivo]

She is? Yes. She's one of the maids.

[Ariana Grande]

Yes. Opposite Heather Morazzo. Yes, Yes. I feel like there's one. Oh, Ed McClanahan. Obviously, she's the Countess. So the joke, Scott Elliot doing, like, all these edgy things. And in the scene in the beauty parlor before Mary shows up to get her nails did. Normally, what happens in the script as written is that the Countess is getting her hair done and someone comes up to her in a mud mask and is like, oh, my God, is that the Countess? Guess who it is. And she's like, oh, nice to see you. And she walks away and she's like, who the fuck was that? And they learned about the mud mask and all this other stuff. A bipoc attendant comes in to take the woman to the mud mask away. She's like, you're gonna crack your mud. Get over here. Scott Elliott's like, oh, Claire Booth Luce made that attendant a person of color. She's in a mud mask. Let's do some commentary. So Julie Halston is the friend in the mud mask. They don't make it the countess because Rue McClanahan is like, I won't be getting till the theater till 9:00, so make it someone else. She's like, my stories go until 8:30. But. So. So someone else is in the booth and Julie Halston shows up in her mud mask with the black attendant. And she was like, she's like, oh, darling, it's you. And then she looks at the black attendant, points to herself and the attendant and goes, guess who I am making a blackface joke. It's not what it's meant to be in the script, but Scott Elliott said, hey, let's make a joke about how racist these white women are. And I'm like, they're white women. You already assume they're racist. Then you tell me it's 1936. And I'm just like, well, they hate everyone who's not a white person.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Yeah, that part.

[Ariana Grande]

Yes, exactly. I'm like, we don't need that joke. It's not good. That revival, how would you say that it was received?

[Cynthia Erivo]

Well, I vaguely remember it was not terribly well received.

[Ariana Grande]

Yes.

[Cynthia Erivo]

I don't remember specific reviews, but I remember it. I don't remember it being praised by any means.

[Ariana Grande]

I believe that Jennifer Coolidge got a Drama desk nomination, which is correct. And Isaac Mizrahi got a nomination at the Drama Desks for his costumes. And they weren't nominated for anything at the Tony Awards, which is surprising because.

[Cynthia Erivo]

I don't even remember what other plays were up for a revival that year.

[Ariana Grande]

That was the season. That was the 2002 season. So that was Private Lives, which won.

[Cynthia Erivo]

That was Alan Rickman. Rickman and Lindsey Duncan.

[Ariana Grande]

Sure was okay. I remember they won set design and I was a 12 year old little nobody and I was like, how could into the woods lose set design? They had books on stage. The casual came up from the ground. No, it didn't. That was the og but yeah, I don't know. I don't remember what the other revivals were, but whatever it was, the point is the women was just considered so underwhelming that even with the PBS with the starry cast, they're like, fuck this, we don't need to.

[Cynthia Erivo]

They also opened really close to September 11th, right afterwards. Yeah, yeah.

[Ariana Grande]

But in some ways that because it was financially successful, you look at the grosses like they did well.

[Cynthia Erivo]

I mean, if we've learned anything from that whole experience, people were looking for comedies at that point. And so it did do well, I think, because people were like, oh, it's all these women that I know and it's a comedy.

[Ariana Grande]

And yeah, again, Sex and the City was super huge. It was the idea of, oh, this is a precursor to Golden Girls and Sex and City and the things we Love.

[Cynthia Erivo]

It's a pretty sad cast, especially for a roundabout.

[Ariana Grande]

Yeah, it was at the American Airlines Theater, which had just opened, I think. Man who Came to Dinner was the year before.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Yeah. Man who Came to dinner was 2000. And so it was like in the season following.

[Ariana Grande]

Yes. And so like a hit for Roundabout on a financial level.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Ariana Grande]

But it was not well received. No one really talks about it much. You can watch the whole thing on YouTube. Scott Elliot, by the way, who I think is the artistic director of the new group.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Correct.

[Ariana Grande]

Which like has had some successes and some downs, but in terms of his Broadway career, the last two shows he did were the same season, back to back, and it was the revivals of the Threepenny Opera at Roundabout and the commercial revival of Barefoot in the Park.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Oh.

[Ariana Grande]

With Amanda P. Patrick Wilson and Jill Kleberg. Right. That everyone detested.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Yeah, they did.

[Ariana Grande]

They said it was like the most unfunny production of Neil Simon.

[Cynthia Erivo]

I remember kind of looking forward to that production because I'd never seen the play on stage. I only, I knew it, but I only had seen the film and I was excited about it. And then I just remember it getting the most God awful response. And I could not waste my $5 that I probably had in my bank account at the time to come see it.

[Ariana Grande]

And two and a half hours of the life that you just had in your bank account, that's the other thing that. But money aside, it's like, do I want to spend these minutes of my life doing this?

[Cynthia Erivo]

Yeah. I mean, I've said it a million times. I will happily go see a bad musical over a bad play. Cause at least a musical, there's songs and usually some kind of rhythm that's moving things forward. And then when a play is just not landing, it is.

[Ariana Grande]

But when those songs and those rhythms are paradise square, is it really worth it?

[Cynthia Erivo]

Listen, I saw Scandalous with Carolee Carmelo.

[Ariana Grande]

So did I. I was at opening night faggot.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Oh, ok. I sat in a very empty mezzanine with co workers of mine. At the time we had had several margaritas before the show and sat and laughed our asses off while some poor dance captain sat like two rows over from us taking notes because they were still in previews.

[Ariana Grande]

I was at opening night with that set that looked like the Mormon.

[Cynthia Erivo]

It's the Fortress of Solitude.

[Ariana Grande]

Yes. As designed by the Mormon Church. It was the most. Everyone was so obligated to stand at the end. There was not a cheer to be heard. It was just stand and clap. And the opening night party was at the Copacabana.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Great.

[Ariana Grande]

The one that's on 8th Avenue, right? Like the one that's not the real Copa.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Right.

[Ariana Grande]

And everyone was just sort of like, bar, bar, bar, please.

[Cynthia Erivo]

You should be offering me a drink as I walk into this space.

[Ariana Grande]

Yes, I have. I don't. I have. I should have that playbill still.

[Cynthia Erivo]

I have mine somewhere because again, I.

[Ariana Grande]

Was at opening night. I don't. I was. I was doing. I'm doing inventory of all my playbills. I'm like, I don't know if I have my scandalous opening night playbill. I think I do. And, well, if I do, it doesn't have a sticker on the front, which a lot of shows usually do. But it could just be that the producers, like, we're not paying for stickers.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Yeah. I mean, that's an additional expense.

[Ariana Grande]

Yeah.

[Cynthia Erivo]

So they probably just didn't. They probably didn't have the money to do it.

[Ariana Grande]

I mean, listen, my Annie opening night playable doesn't have the sticker on it. Yeah, I have. I have to. I had to put my after party slip inside to prove to people who want to buy it. Like, this is. This is opening that. I'm telling you. Promise, Promise. This is. I was there. I was there.

[Cynthia Erivo]

But.

[Ariana Grande]

So Scott Elliott with this.

[Cynthia Erivo]

It's just.

[Ariana Grande]

The whole thing is just. If you watch it, guys, the whole thing just doesn't click at all.

[Cynthia Erivo]

I think the thing that I have the most trouble with, I mean, the casting is great in some places, sadly, and I like Cynthia Nixon a lot of the time, but this is not her role. She's really shrill and just. Well. And as we've already talked about the character in the film, and I don't know if it's just because of Norma Shearer warmth in the film, like, if it's just her portrayal or if they did enough zhuzhing of the script for the film. If Anita Loos coming in and adapting that play as a screenplay, if what she did softened the character up enough that you had a bit more empathy for her.

[Ariana Grande]

Well, they gave her spunk.

[Cynthia Erivo]

They did give her spunk.

[Ariana Grande]

Yeah. They gave her a sense of humor and an attitude.

[Cynthia Erivo]

But the thing that I, in rewatching it and. And I told Matt this already, I rewatched, with the exception of two scenes, the roundabout one on YouTube, at 1.5 times the speed, just to get through it because it's not a short play. And the fact that at the 1.5 speed, it felt more like the tempo of the film has got to tell you something. The direction was just really draggy, and it didn't have that fast talking his girl Friday Bantery, you know, wit about it.

[Ariana Grande]

It didn't have a motor.

[Cynthia Erivo]

No, it really. They just try to sit in too many moments instead of letting it just drive.

[Ariana Grande]

But that's sort of the thing, is that the reputation of the women outside of the original production, which was just objectively a hit, but also, like, not critically successful. I used to have a book of New York Times reviews of that Ben Brantley compiled In the early 2000s of specific productions that were very important. And one was the women in Brooks Atkinson's review. And basically, he goes on and on about how witty it is, how fashionable it is, that the acting is great and it has a lot to say, quote, unquote, and ends the review with. And I hated every second of it. And I thought it was terrible. Oh, that's great. Yeah, I love that. Yes. There's a reason why he used to have a theater named after him, but, like. Yeah, it's. The whole review is him just, like, he's. He's giving a lot of credit where it's due. And then at the end, he's like, I imagine. And he's like. And I imagine this is gonna be a very enjoyable night of theater for a lot of people. I hated it. And still a hit. The movie is ultimately what gives that property its reputation and its belovedness. And we know this because, like, pretty immediately after that movie, they did a musical remake in the 50s called the opposite Sex.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Oh, right, right, right, right.

[Ariana Grande]

With Ann Miller and a bunch of other people.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Yep.

[Ariana Grande]

And that one, they actually included the men.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Yes.

[Ariana Grande]

They didn't have that gimmick. They did a TV movie of the women as well. They were gonna do a male twist remake. I forgot what it was gonna be called, but it was gonna be all men. Yes. And I was looking it up. The only two names I remember at the top of my head who were gonna be in it were Robert Wagner and Tab Hunter. But, like, the exact same plot just inverted with the sexes. And instead of a manicurist, it's a bartender who tells him, like, your wife's cheating on you. I know, right? It got scrapped, but. Yeah, I know, I know, I know.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Good.

[Ariana Grande]

And then we have our Meg Ryan remake in the. In the aughts that our landlord Chris Nicolosi here absolutely loves because it's great. Airplane. Fox. Chris's compliment for it, not mine, right? Yes.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Love it.

[Ariana Grande]

Thank you. I need people to tell me that I'm correct. So on stage, though, it only has that 70s revival, which lasts less than two months, commercially speaking.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Yes.

[Ariana Grande]

And Then isn't.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Did Robert Moore direct that one?

[Ariana Grande]

Maybe.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Was that a Robert Moore moment? I could be very wrong.

[Ariana Grande]

I hope not. I like to think that Robert Moore only had success. Exactly. Well, did Robert Moore do. He did Death Trap too, right? Yes, yes, because he has boys in the band. Promises, Promises, Deathtrap, Woman of the Year.

[Cynthia Erivo]

And then a couple Neil Simons, I think. Or a couple additional Neil Simon.

[Ariana Grande]

Here we go. We're going to look this motherfucker up. Great. And people remember Robert Moore from our. Both our Promises, Promises episode and our Boyz in the Band episode. My phone's not letting me tap his name. Here we go. Okay. Robert Moore.

[Cynthia Erivo]

IBDB is a slow ass website.

[Ariana Grande]

It sure is. He was in these shows. Promises, Promises. Last of the Red Hot Lovers. That's our Neil Simon gingerbread lady. That's also Neil Simon. Okay, Lorelai. Oh, Jesus, that hit. Yep. That's not about Lorelei Gilmore, everybody. My fat friend. Aw, they wrote a play about you. Deathtrap.

[Cynthia Erivo]

It was before the Ozempic.

[Ariana Grande]

Oh, sempic. No, he didn't do that. Women. His last few things were they're playing our song in Woman of the Year. Yeah. So he didn't have that many duds. And even his duds weren't like massive. They weren't. Scott Elliott, barefoot in the park. Massive sidewalk turds. Yeah, exactly. They were like, oh, you tripped.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Oh, honey, you tripped.

[Ariana Grande]

Exactly. No, I don't know who directed that. Women. But yeah. So we have our three versions of the women, and the last two are not successful. And I think a lot of it is that the play just isn't as good as the movie.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Yeah.

[Ariana Grande]

And we all. And we don't have a lot of people with the sensibility to make it happen. In Ben Branley's review, he said that when it was announced that Roundabout was going to do the Women, directed by Scott Elliott, supposedly he had letters written by all of New York City drag queens being like, cast us like, this is who should be doing the show.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Yeah. And because Charles Bush should be in the Women.

[Ariana Grande]

Well, well, tired old. The queen of the movies informed me of something via his episode of the Women. Okay. And it's. And it's Steve Hayes, not Haynes. I'm. I'm corrected. Steve Hayes informed us that there was a performance of the Women done by all, mostly men. He said it was a town hall. I finally looked it up. It's. It was somewhere in the Village in the early 90s. Charles Bush was Mary Great Lip Lipsinka was Crystal.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Okay. Correct.

[Ariana Grande]

Coco Peru, I believe, was Miriam.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Okay.

[Ariana Grande]

Lisa Krohn was Sylvia. Oh, I know.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Weird.

[Ariana Grande]

I know. And Steve Hayes was the Countess.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Okay.

[Ariana Grande]

Doing his Invitation of the woman for the movie. Yeah. And you can watch two clips of it on YouTube.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Oh, I can't wait to watch it.

[Ariana Grande]

They're like seven years old and they have like 20 views.

[Cynthia Erivo]

That's great.

[Ariana Grande]

Yeah. But it's. One is of the final scene and one I don't remember the other one is. But it's clear that they're pretty much doing the play with a couple of touches from the movie because they.

[Cynthia Erivo]

And there's just some lines you have to keep.

[Ariana Grande]

Well, they don't have. They don't have the kennel line. They.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Which is a shame. It is a shame.

[Ariana Grande]

But they end it the way the movie ends, with Charles Bush looking at. And being like Stephen. Yes. It's because Charles also gets. Charles gets in a massive laugh on the. Like, you can have my leftovers. I'll take them. Thank you. Just everyone just fucking loving it. But that is it now. Like, it's. Yeah, it's. You need people or. So I talked about this. My Death Becomes her episode about how, like, Megan Hilty is a phenomenally gifted and intelligent comedic actress, but Jennifer Simard is a fag.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Oh, yeah, she is.

[Ariana Grande]

And if you want any proof, listen to her and Patrick Hines on the Golden Girls Rewatch podcast.

[Cynthia Erivo]

I still need to start that, but I'm very excited.

[Ariana Grande]

Oh, oh, it's. If anything ever was your junk, it's that junk.

[Cynthia Erivo]

I also just. Quick side note. The four songs that they've released for Death Becomes Her. You and I both have the same favorite song of those four. Yes.

[Ariana Grande]

And we talked about.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Tell me Earnest. Yes.

[Ariana Grande]

And I talked about how you and I have that line that we can hear in Julia Madison's voice.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Oh, yeah.

[Ariana Grande]

The roms. The comms. The rom coms, the dramas.

[Cynthia Erivo]

The dramatist. But the. But I really love at the beginning of Alive Forever when you just. It's basically Jennifer Simard asmr. Where she's like, oh, God. Oh, no. I'd like you to stop. She's like, barely talking, but man, is she a homo.

[Ariana Grande]

She's a total homo. But so what I mean is that there are. You listen to her on the Golden Girls podcast. And the way she can just do Rooma Clanahan.

[Cynthia Erivo]

I would love to watch Jennifer Simard and the women.

[Ariana Grande]

This is what I'm getting at.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Great.

[Ariana Grande]

Even Megan Hilti and the women, too.

[Cynthia Erivo]

But like, sure, sure, sure.

[Ariana Grande]

But like, the way that Jen Simard just does her. Get out of here. Like, she could just drop into it like a D. This is a woman who has studied every ounce of Ruma Clanahan with every gay of the West Village, and it's just in her DNA.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Also, take note, because we've never had a successful Rue McClanahan snatch game. And it shouldn't be that hard.

[Ariana Grande]

It shouldn't be that hard because the whole thing about Snatch Game is when you're playing a real person, most of the time you're just doing their most famous character. But you're not saying that. Cause copyright. You can't. Right. So, yeah, you just do Blanche.

[Cynthia Erivo]

And no one ever plays her as horny.

[Ariana Grande]

No.

[Cynthia Erivo]

And it's like, why not? She should be feeling it all the time.

[Ariana Grande]

And again, if fucking Kennedy is doing Little Richard.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Richard.

[Ariana Grande]

And doing. Shut up. Like, if you're doing Rimaclan, you just do. Get out of here. Get out of here. Or you're like, I'm just so petite, but so Alaska.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Does a good room Clanahan.

[Ariana Grande]

Of course she does. But so, Jen, with that, like, you need people with that mentality who can deconstruct every iota of golden girls of Dynasty, of the women of his Girl Friday who have. And you need a director who has that energy, who has that rapport, who can make that happen. Like, this actually might be the play we get to entice Casey Nicholaw back.

[Cynthia Erivo]

To plays that could be good. You're the top.

[Ariana Grande]

Yeah.

[Cynthia Erivo]

You're an arrow collar. You're the top. You're a Coolidge dollar. You're the nimble tread of the feet.

[Ariana Grande]

Afraid of, like, imagine. And with. With the. With the respect of the Anita Luce and Claire Booth, loose the looses of their. Of their estates, finding a way to mesh the two together of the screenplay and the stage play and getting the Beth levels. The Jennifer Simards, the Alaska Thunderfucks.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Yeah.

[Ariana Grande]

The Jinx Monsoons. To do it together. Like, I'm sorry, you would sell that shit out.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Oh, absolutely.

[Ariana Grande]

Yes.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Or just do it as a fundraiser at least.

[Ariana Grande]

Absolutely. With, you know, designs by Gregory Barnes by way of Donna Karan.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Oh, my God.

[Ariana Grande]

Have Gregory Barnes go through all of Donna Karan wardrobe, take some Polaroids, and then be like, okay, now, what if I added rhinestones and cocaine to all of it?

[Cynthia Erivo]

Correct.

[Ariana Grande]

And that's what we have with the women. But otherwise, I just don't see us doing this again because. And somebody asked. I say this because on the discord, someone was like, the legacy of the show and the combination of that with drag queens, maybe. Is there something there? And there is. It should be.

[Cynthia Erivo]

I think that's the only way that you could do it. Just because of. I think to have women play these roles anymore, it just kind of feels demoralizing in a lot of ways. But to have a drag queen do it, I think you'll just feel. It feels more like a drag show where it's like lovingly parodying this time period and these women from this time period as opposed to. I don't know. I think it would just come off a little sad now.

[Ariana Grande]

Yeah. Don't think of it as a play with something to say, because the truth is that it doesn't and it never really did. Claire Boothe Luce thought she had something to say and it's more how she said it that we enjoyed and not the message itself. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. The movie has its cake and eats it too. Far more so than the play does. So if we can incorporate more of the movie stuff in there and that sensibility and dial it up to 11, I think that's how we get our women back.

[Cynthia Erivo]

The movie also eliminates a lot of. So in the play, the way that it's constructed. There are a lot of scenes that will start and. Or end with a group of. Some of who I would essentially call the ensemble of the cast. Like the smaller role women who.

[Ariana Grande]

Beyond importance.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Yeah, yeah, well, sure, but the. But of the ensemble of doubling in different roles.

[Ariana Grande]

Yeah.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Where it will come in with them playing servants or counter people or, you know, people who are on the outside commenting on the characters that you're seeing.

[Ariana Grande]

The working class characters.

[Cynthia Erivo]

The working class characters. And they kept some of that in the movie. They did keep the scene between the maid.

[Ariana Grande]

The maid and the cook.

[Cynthia Erivo]

The maid and the cook, where they.

[Ariana Grande]

Well, and that's. It's. First of all, it's a clever way to.

[Cynthia Erivo]

It's a great scene.

[Ariana Grande]

It's a clever way to get Mary and Steven's fight without having to see Steven. Because it's them. It's them reiterating what has just happened.

[Cynthia Erivo]

And it's a great scene. It's a great two person scene also.

[Ariana Grande]

Well, because it's also their perspective on it. But the movie also talks about in that scene, the play doesn't do this of the cook saying if they get divorced, we could be out of jobs.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. But, yeah, it's. I don't know. It.

[Ariana Grande]

It.

[Cynthia Erivo]

The movie's just better.

[Ariana Grande]

No, the movie is better. And it cuts a lot of the fat and the. The play has a lot more sexual innuendo and things like that. Like, there's a. The final scene is at that nightclub, which is where all hell breaks loose. But it's all in the women's powder room. And the. One of the things we see is a mother and her daughter, who, I guess, like, has just come out as a debutante. And the daughter's, like, being a little loose to her mother's liking. And she was like, I like, you know, you were under the table with that boy.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Oh, yeah. This is. You're supposed to be. You're coming out. Not you. Not you. Is it.

[Ariana Grande]

It's the line somewhere. It doesn't matter. It's a good line. It's not a great line. Yeah, but it's. Oh, there's also the, like, two women talking about their men and ones like. He says he has to get back to his family. Why? I said, why? Because they expect me every Easter. And I said, what do they expect you to do? Lay an egg dancing like that? What can those boys think of you? Oh, Mother, guzzling champagne like that after all I spent on your education. Oh, Mother. It's one thing to come out. It's quite another to go under the table, right?

[Cynthia Erivo]

That's.

[Ariana Grande]

To which I say, I'm sorry. Let that diva be diva, okay? If she wants to get on her knees or on her back, take the old in, out for hours on end, I say a women. A woman has a right to choose whichever hole, whichever position. I say diva, go off, pop off.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Any hole is a goal.

[Ariana Grande]

Any hole is a goal. If there's one thing we learned from Natalie Walker in the Big Gay Jamboree, it's the women have the right to be sloots as long as they're thin, blonde, and sound like Marilyn Monroe.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Didn't see it, but I heard she was great.

[Ariana Grande]

She's the best thing in it for. And don't take my word for it, somebody on Broadway World said that exact thing today.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Oh, good.

[Ariana Grande]

Yes. So you know it's true.

[Cynthia Erivo]

It's true. Nothing but facts on that website.

[Ariana Grande]

Oh, absolutely. Listen, I should say now, speaking of gossip and facts and even saying how we don't like to jump the gun with our tea on this podcast. Yes, I'm aware that when Podmother and I, Allie Gordon, recorded the Passion episode, I said that Skylar Astin was gonna be the next Gatsby. And of course, like, two days later, Ryan McCartan was announced to be the next Gatsby. Be at the Top.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Oh, is he. I didn't. I missed that announcement somehow. I don't know.

[Ariana Grande]

Well, I have listeners who are very happy to hear you say that, but. So I have no opinion about it either way. I just have listeners on the Discord Channel who are anti him. I'm not sure why, but at the time that we recorded it, I had heard from four different sources that it was gonna be Skyler.

[Cynthia Erivo]

I think you told me. I think you had mentioned it to me also.

[Ariana Grande]

Well, what you just said is very much a woman thing of not a woman. The women where Edith says something and Sylvia's like, who told you that? You did. Yeah, but so, no, I had been told by four different people that it was gonna be Skyler, and then Ryan happens. Those are the same people who told me that Jeremy was gonna be Floyd Collins.

[Cynthia Erivo]

So it seemed reputable.

[Ariana Grande]

Yep. I have a feeling Skyler was approached. Skyler might have even said a soft yes, and then nothing got signed. That happens all the time. And if anything, it's a perfect example of why we try not to go too, like, fort broke with our tea on this podcast, because things change all the goddamn time. That's correct. Listen, Anything Goes was supposed to be Sherri Renee Scott before it was Sutton Foster.

[Cynthia Erivo]

It was.

[Ariana Grande]

And yet, did we say anything about it publicly? No. Wasn't it gonna even be Megan Mullally before Sherry or like, that was who they wanted?

[Cynthia Erivo]

I think that might have been. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I think she was brought up. Yeah.

[Ariana Grande]

But, like, again, like, this is what we're dealing with, y'all. Before Kelly O'Hara was in South Pacific, she was up against Celie Keenan Bolger and Victoria Clarke and possibly even Reese Witherspoon. Although that might have been a rumor.

[Cynthia Erivo]

I would have. Oh, no, it was Scarlett Johansson.

[Ariana Grande]

Scarlett Johansson, Yeah.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Yeah, she was. I think she was even rumored for it initially. Like, there was a whole. I feel like they might have even announced that she was going to do it.

[Ariana Grande]

They didn't announce she was gonna do it. I think they. I think it was leaked that she had auditioned because everyone thought that it was down to Kelly and Scarjo. And I think it got. It was revealed in maybe Celia's podcast or maybe Vicky said it somewhere that, like, Vicki, Celia, and Kelly were actually, like, the final three Nellies.

[Cynthia Erivo]

That is hilarious.

[Ariana Grande]

It just goes to show that Bart Scherer has a really open mind when it comes to casting.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Yeah.

[Ariana Grande]

He thinks outside the box. He doesn't go beyond his immediate Rolodex.

[Cynthia Erivo]

He'll cast Margaret Johnson, Franca, whatever her last name is. Is she also a Knockarelli? I guess they're married.

[Ariana Grande]

Yeah.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Franca Knockarelli and an ex, Clara.

[Ariana Grande]

Well, you know, he goes, funny Girl, who should I cast in Funny Girl? Who was that redhead I had in Awaken? Sing her. And then when Funny Girl doesn't happen, he's like, My Fair Lady. Who should I cast? Who was that redhead I was going to Happy Fanny Brice? Her brother. Chair's Rolodex is very small indeed. Yes. Although I don't think he has any repeats in Floyd Collins, so that's nice. No, I lied. Taylor Trench from Tequila Mockingbird. Sure.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Yeah.

[Ariana Grande]

Always. There's always a minor little repeat.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Always one holdover.

[Ariana Grande]

There's always a lunch that goes unswallowed in a chair. Casting.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Wait, who did Taylor Trench play in?

[Ariana Grande]

He was the same.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Oh, he replaced. He replaced Gideon.

[Ariana Grande]

That's right.

[Cynthia Erivo]

That's right. That's right. I didn't. I did not see the replacements.

[Ariana Grande]

That's why I. Neither did I, but here we are. Okay, the women. Final thoughts.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Love pink.

[Ariana Grande]

No, Jungle red, baby.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Jungle red. I think that the movie is still a blast to watch. I do highly recommend it. Like, it's. Yeah, I don't think it needs to be revived. I would go watch a drag queen production of it for sure. A truncated drag queen production of it. Maybe like, just a little bit of snipping. It's a long play.

[Ariana Grande]

It's a long play. Well, I think it felt long in that revival, too.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Yeah. I think that might be my biggest problem with it, is that it just. It feels like it's treading back on familiar territory over and over again. Like, things start to feel a little repetitive with her finding out information about Steven and then him calling and her seeming upset about it.

[Ariana Grande]

Yeah.

[Cynthia Erivo]

It just. It all. I get that it's in the name of the dramatic tension tightening as she continues to get blown off by her husband, but I don't know, it just feels a little drawn out to me.

[Ariana Grande]

Yeah. Again, if you and I could sit down with Elaine, May be like, hey, Elainey baby. Here's the screenplay. Here's the OG screen. Let us go through and do some stuff.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Let's make a baby.

[Ariana Grande]

Exactly. Let's have them make a lovely little baby.

[Cynthia Erivo]

A little paper baby.

[Ariana Grande]

And if you have any nuggets you want to drop in there, I wouldn't say no to an Elaine Mae Bomb Ball, please. And then we serve it with the drag queens and the female fags and we say, can we Serve this on toast. And Jennifer Smart's like, I'll take three months off of Death becomes so I've got nothing better to.

[Cynthia Erivo]

That's right.

[Ariana Grande]

Yeah.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Yeah. No, I would say that the movie is worth it for the casting. That sort of made it a known property. And I don't know if I have anything else to add. I like the movie.

[Ariana Grande]

It's objectively a good movie. Listen, is it perfect?

[Cynthia Erivo]

No.

[Ariana Grande]

There's that like 10,000 minute long fashion sequence in Technicolor for no reason.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Oh, yeah. Everybody. Wizard of Oz was not the only movie to go from black and white to Technicolor for a part of the film in 39.

[Ariana Grande]

I know, I know. It was wild. Was not alone.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Although we got full color with Gone with the Wind start to finish.

[Ariana Grande]

Yeah. We had movies in Technicolor before those movies anyway.

[Cynthia Erivo]

True.

[Ariana Grande]

Yeah, we're not here.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Those are just the Most famous intros.

[Ariana Grande]

39 was a good year. Yeah. I feel the same way. I don't know why otherwise why we would need to do this play again on Broadway. Cynthia Nixon talked about how the place has a lot more to say than the movie does. To which I say, Cynthia, you only say that because you were in the woods with it.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Oh, you were going to talk really quick before we wrap up. What were you going to say about Jason Alexander? Were you going to say anything?

[Ariana Grande]

No, the Discord wanted us to talk about it. Just like of his interview, which is just like.

[Cynthia Erivo]

I mean, it's just sort of cringey. I don't have much to say about it, really. Just watch it. It's in the video. If you, if you search the women. Broadway great performances. It's in the act break.

[Ariana Grande]

Well, yes, it's the act break and it's Jason interviewing Jennifer Tilly, Cynthia Nixon, Mary Louise Wilson, Jennifer Coolidge. Is that it? I think it's those four.

[Cynthia Erivo]

No, Kristen Johnston's in it too.

[Ariana Grande]

Yes, Kristen Johnston. But those are the ones. And they talk about. And they talk about the child actress and they talk about the play scenes and they talk about the movie and all that stuff. They talk about the Ice Pinkestra Rocky costumes. And Jason's like trying to be a gregarious host, but it. And he. It's just clear that there's a couple of times he steps in shit. And it's not like offensive shit. Like. No, like these women are too tough for them to like, be butthurt about it. They're just sort of like this man.

[Cynthia Erivo]

This guy over here. Yeah.

[Ariana Grande]

And he just says, A couple things where you're just like, jason, shut the fuck up. The only time where they actually kind of just like, we can't let that be. The last thing said is when he talks about the infidelity complex of the play. Because the whole point of Steven that Mary's mother tells her is like, stephen, cheating on you has nothing to do with you. It has nothing to do with, like, love. Like, he's a man. He's getting older, and he's like, you know, he's feeling his mortality, and he's feeling not special or young anymore. And when we feel that way, we hire new help or we redecorate the kitchen, which is like, that's a very regressive way to think about it, but it's not totally untrue for some people. And she's like, for men, what they can do is like, they. What she. What does the mom say? She says, like, they can't stand to look at their reflection anymore, so they look for a new reflection in the eyes of a different woman. Yep, it's something like that.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Did the. Did the term midlife crisis exist at this point?

[Ariana Grande]

I don't believe so.

[Cynthia Erivo]

I don't think it did, because otherwise, mom would just be like, honey, he's having a midlife crisis.

[Ariana Grande]

Exactly.

[Cynthia Erivo]

And instead, we have to explain all of these things, which I think now people understand a Using that phrase.

[Ariana Grande]

That's shorthand.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Yes.

[Ariana Grande]

The midlife crisis, sports car. But. Yeah, but that's essentially what her mom tells her. He's having a midlife crisis, and it has nothing to do with you. And so when talking about that in the interview with all the ladies, Jason Alexander refers to infidelity that, like, I guess he was talking to his wife about it, or, like, you know, sticking through it anyway, and choosing to call it an accident, like a friend wants to. Would prefer to call, like, cheating an accident. I had an accident.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Right.

[Ariana Grande]

And. And everyone has been very polite and, like, having. Trying to have a meaningful conversation about what is ultimately a thin play. And this is the moment where, like, I think Jennifer Tilly is the one who sort of breaks the tension with it.

[Cynthia Erivo]

You're right.

[Ariana Grande]

And she isn't like, shut the fuck up. But she's more sort of like, yeah, no. And then, like, Jennifer Coolidge piles on. She's like, I don't like that idea. Like, oops, they had an accident. And like, no, you did it. You did what you did. You made a choice. And everyone's just sort of like, yeah, Jason. No, no, no.

[Cynthia Erivo]

This interview Is over, everybody. Good night. Yeah.

[Ariana Grande]

We have an Act 2 to get to. And, Jason, you want to. Speaking of rugs, you want to put that new rug on your head. And the thing is, from what I understand, he's a very nice man, and he's clearly a smart dude. It's just one of those things where he's trying. It's an impossible task. You're interviewing six accomplished, intelligent actresses in a play called the Women. And you are a man.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Yeah.

[Ariana Grande]

Interviewing them. And you're not even a gay man. So he's just sitting there being like, how do I act? Like the ally. It's like Paul Schaeffer on all of his podcasts, where he's like, I want you to understand that I'm one of the good white men.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Right, Exactly.

[Ariana Grande]

It's like, there's no such thing. Just, like, understand and know you're gonna step in shit and let them talk.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Yeah.

[Ariana Grande]

As they should. Yeah. I think that's the tagline for the women. Let them talk as they should.

[Cynthia Erivo]

That's it.

[Ariana Grande]

Yeah. You're in marketing. You know how to do that. Make that happen.

[Cynthia Erivo]

I don't write taglines.

[Ariana Grande]

I wrote the tagline. Now you make the art. Okay. Okay, Adam, where can people find you if you want them to find you?

[Cynthia Erivo]

On the Soches or. Really, the only social media I'm on is Instagram, and you can just search.

[Ariana Grande]

Me with my name if you want to find me. I'm on Instagram. Omi Atkoplik, Usualspelling. If you like the podcast, give us a nice 5 star rating or review. It always helps with the algorithm. We haven't gotten any new Review since the 5 review Palooza with the Wicked episode, so a new one would be great to have.

[Cynthia Erivo]

I really hope you get another review where somebody tells you all the awful things you're doing wrong and then asks to come onto the and be a guest with you. I really want that to happen again because that went over so well.

[Ariana Grande]

Guys, here's the twist. It was Adam.

[Cynthia Erivo]

It was me. Can you imagine?

[Ariana Grande]

Honestly, I'm more likely to get another review that's like. And you're still talking.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Oh, my God.

[Ariana Grande]

Listen, it's fine, people. If people want to use their time to write that, they can. And I will read it out loud. I read every single review. The five stars and the two stars. All of them. But, yeah, write them. Please write them. We like to have them. We would prefer five stars, but write what you want to write. Adam.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Yes?

[Ariana Grande]

Who do we close out with today?

[Cynthia Erivo]

Oh, I Hadn't even thought about that part.

[Ariana Grande]

I hadn't. Why? You acted brand new.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Because it's a play. Let's see. Oh, do Rosalind Russell. Do Wonderful Town or something.

[Ariana Grande]

Okay. I was gonna say we're gonna do her. Gypsy. I had a dream.

[Cynthia Erivo]

No, do one where she's actually singing. Do Wonderful Town. Do conga or. Or swing or something.

[Ariana Grande]

Yeah, we'll do Rosalind Russell in Wonderful Town. I always forget she did that og. I know she's the og, but when we think of Rosalind Russell singing, we associate it with Gypsy and the dumpster fire of that. But no, she was legitimately in a Broadway musical and won a Tony for it. So, yeah, Rosalind Russell, which you can.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Watch on YouTube, by the way. They filmed it for television. They did a TV version of it and it's great.

[Ariana Grande]

It's great. She's a fucking charismatic bitch out the wazoo. All right. Yeah. So we'll close out with Rosalind for the next episode, which is either going to be nine or come from away. One of the two. One of the two. We'll find out then. All right, take it away, Roz. Bye. Swing, dig the rhythm. Swing, dig the message. The jive is jumping in the music goes round and around. Wahoo. Dig her goes round and around. Cats make it solid. Cat, cats make it groovy. You gotta get your seafood, mama. Your favorite dish is fish. It's your favorite dish. Don't be square. Rock right out of that rocking chair. Truck on down and let down your hair. Breathe some barrel house. Can you identify an Elphaba just from her defying gravity war cry?

[Cynthia Erivo]

Can you name every actress in the Wicked to Waitress pipeline? Or does the phrase witch switch mean anything to you? Well, then, good news. My name's Quincy. And my name's Kevin. And we're the host of Sentimental Men.

[Ariana Grande]

We're here to talk and maybe scream.

[Cynthia Erivo]

About our favorite women in musical theater.

[Ariana Grande]

The Witches of Wicked.

[Cynthia Erivo]

So if spending a Friday night in a no good deed Rabbit hole on YouTube sounds like your idea of a good time, then Sentimental Men is the podcast for you. And with guests like Jessica Vosk, Lucy Jones, and Stephanie J. Block, chances are we've already got an episode with your favorite Elphaba or Glinda.

[Ariana Grande]

Like Laura Bell Bundy, Brittany Johnson, and McKenzie Lindsay Kurtz.

[Cynthia Erivo]

So pause your riff compilations, put down your copy of the Grimmery, and give Sentimental Men a listen.

[Ariana Grande]

You can find us on the Broadway Podcast Network or wherever you listen to podcasts.