Sally Mayes (2:54)

Well, you know, they were both so different that it was kind of amazing to work with both of them, you know, because Judy was, like, really thoughtful, and really. Her Amalia was really thoughtful and really serious. And then she'd open her mouth, and of course, God comes out, you know, and. And then Diane was a lot more playful and flirtatious and. And it was a smaller. But it was. It was very, very different, and it was wonderful. It was equally wonderful. So we had the best time. So, you know, I. I was lucky that I got to work with both of those ladies because they're both brilliantly talented, so.

Matt Koblick (3:28)

They are. Sally, how did she Loves Me come into your life? How did that come across your path?

Sally Mayes (3:34)

Well, golly, I was headed to Los Angeles for pilot season. I'd already bought my ticket. I had a place to stay. I was ready to go. And I got a call from my agent, Barry Douglas, the late, great Barry Douglas from dgrw. And he said, I have an audition for you before you leave town. I just have a feeling about this. And I was like, okay, what is it? And he said, it's. She loves me, right? And. And it's the role of Alona, and I just. I have a feeling you need to get seen for that. And I went, okay. So. So I prepared and I said, what is. I don't know that musical very well. What? What? What? Tell me. And I read the breakdown and everything. And so I decided I should do a story song. And so I went and found on the SS Bernard Con from On a Clear Day. And I went over and rehearsed with Jason, Robert Brown, who played my audition.

Matt Koblick (4:34)

Never heard of him.

Sally Mayes (4:35)

Never heard of him. And I went in and sang for them. And then I kept getting called back. I was called back, like, five times. I had to learn all the scenes and all the songs, and I'm like, Jesus. And. And what? I didn't know. But he told me later how Prince actually, who did the original she Loves Me, he called Scott when he found out Scott Ellis was directing the revival. And he said, I only have one suggestion for casting. And he said, you have to cast Sallie Mays as Alona. And, you know, I'm. Scott was thinking, I will cast who I want to, but. But maybe that had a little bit to do. With him wanting to see me, I don't know. And so five auditions later, I get a call from my agent saying, well, they really want to offer it to Andrea Martin, but Andrea Martin has a TV series on hold, and they're waiting to hear because if CVS doesn't want it, they're going to take it over to Fox. And. And I went, you know what? I'm done. I'm going. I'm going to la. That's. Thanks, you know, And I don't know what happened. I don't know whether they released that thought or whether Andrea said, I got the pilot. I don't know what happened, and I don't really care. But I got a call about an hour later from Scott Ellis asking me to be in that revival, and that's how that happened.

Matt Koblick (5:59)

I can only imagine this is me just setting a rumor out there, and I don't want anyone to confirm or deny it. I think what happened is Hal Prince brought Scott Ellis into his office and said, I thought we had an understanding. And Scott Ellis. And Scott Ellis goes, well. And then Hal Prince whips out the vinyl of Closer than ever, plays Ms. Bird, and says, what is there to discuss, Scott? And then God called you.

Sally Mayes (6:23)

That's not it. That's not it. I will say, though, that Hal was always. He was like a chance. He was my champion. I never did a show with him, but he was always my champion. I did do a reading of Petrified Prince early on that was hilarious. And with Tony Goldwyn was the Prince. And it was me. Me. And Lucy Arnaz was the Evil Queen. I mean, it was like. It was like. It was like, you know, what is that movie? What's Up, Doc? That has every character actor from the time in that movie. It's one of my favorite Barbra Streisand movies. It's just brilliant. It's the best Peter Bogdanovich movie ever. And it's because of all those wonderful character actors. Well, this reading had all of the great Broadway character actors in it, and they were all hilarious, and it was so much fun. And then I did she Loves Me, and so Daisy did it.

Matt Koblick (7:12)

Petrified Prince. That was that. Lacusa. Was that his score?

Sally Mayes (7:16)

It was lachiusa. And it was. And it was. You know, Hal and Rob Marshall did it together, and Daisy was the star. And I believe that her husband, Sandy Chaplin, ended up being the. The Prince. And so I think she met her husband on that production. So isn't that nice?

Matt Koblick (7:33)

Yeah. How these things work out? So question for you, then. Because I was looking through your theaterography, and again, I know a lot of your credits, but the chronology of the beginning of the 80s and early 90s was always a little mixed for me. I always assumed closer than ever was before welcome to the Club, but I had that reverse. And I also didn't realize that you had replaced early in previews in welcome to the Club, which is a show that most people don't know. I know it because it's the last Broadway show Jodi Benson did before Little Mermaid came out. Because I am a millennial Gay Sally. And these things are important to me. But you. I mean, you come into welcome to the Club in previews, and then you get the only award recognition in that show. You get yourself a Theater World Award for that show.

Sally Mayes (8:21)

Well, you know, that was like. It was just crazy. You know, I moved to New York because at the time that I moved to New York, I was writing songs and I had a band, and I decided I was gonna go to New York and just see what happened. And. And I was gonna sing in cabarets, and I was going to try to hop my songs. And, you know, and three months later, I get a call saying, you know. Or Irv Rabel down at 88 gets a call saying, we're looking for a dumb blonde. And he goes, I got a gal for you. So I get this audition to go in for the swing of. Of. Because what had happened in the meantime was they decided to go black with the role. So Terry White was playing the role. And so I went in to swing for Terry White and another girl named Sharon Scruggs, who was a tall, thin blonde. And then there was Carrie. And then. And I was swinging for both of them. And I went in and auditioned for Cy Coleman in the Music Box Theater on the stage. And it was like, you know, and I. I trained in theater, and I had done theater, but I was doing a different thing. I was doing my rock and roll thing, right? You know, and so I. They said, just go in and sing the best thing you can sing. And I was like, well, what should I sing for size? I. Jazz. Jazz. So I did Mr. Paganini, the Ella Fitzgerald. And I went in and I just sang it because, you know, I scat a little and. And I finished it. And he walked up to the edge of the stage and he said, that was really good. He said, you know, this is a country western singer that we're looking for. Do you sing any country? And I said, boy, do I. And so I did crazy. And they offered me the role right there, which I see, I was so green that I had no idea that any of this was abnormal. Yeah, Abby, Normal was my name on this. And so I got the job. And I remember going back to the. I was staying at Irv Rabel's apartment, and I got the phone book out. I got the yellow pages out, and I flipped to agents, and I started going down the list. And I had met an agent at 88 one night, and I tried to get him to talk to me, and he was very snotty because I was nobody. And then I called and I said, do you remember meeting me at 88? And he said, yes. And I said, well, I have a contract, and I really need somebody to negotiate it for me. And he went, oh, well, what's it for? And I said, well, it's for a Broadway show. And so that's how I got my first agents. So it was all just, like, whack. And then I was like. And, you know, I had moved to New York, and I had quit smoking, and my hair was all blonde and permed and fabulous, and I had gained, like, weight, and it was mostly in my boobs, so I kind of looked like Dolly Parton, you know, and that's what they wanted. They wanted Dolly Parton. And so when I walked on stage, they went, you know, and so. Because the. The part that Sharon was playing at the time was of a country western singer who is thrown into an alimony jail with a bunch of guys. Yeah, I know.

Matt Koblick (11:20)

Yeah.

Sally Mayes (11:21)

And so I, you know, would go to rehearsal every day, and I was terrified, and I was green, and I didn't know anybody, and it was just like. And A.E. hotchner was really nice to me. S. Was really nice to me. And, you know, I. We. I. I was so lucky, because here are the other. I mean, if, you know theater history, you'll know all of these people. But here were the other understudies on that show. Salma and Walter Hudson and Joanna Glushak. And so they're all. And they have done a million shows. A million shows. And, you know, Joanna was Bernadette's understudy on Sunday in the park, and she did the road company of Young Frankenstein. She's brilliant, and she was in a Gentleman's Guide. Right. And so she's brilliant. And Sal did a million shows. You know, he was Pirelli. I mean, it's just so. It's like they were all so, like, renowned, even as understudies in this show. And so, you know, they kind of took Me under their wing. And I just remember the. The previews were not going well, and the director, Peter Mark Schifter, walked over to the understudies one day on a break, and he said. And he looked right at me, and he said, you know, we're gonna have a rehearsal tomorrow morning. And so you guys, like, know all your scenes and songs, right? And I was like, yeah. And they were like, yeah, so we'll just come in and we're just gonna have a little rehearsal. And he walked away, and Salmistretta looked at me, and I went, what? And he goes, do you know your stuff? And I said, yes. He goes, you be ready. Do you want me to run something? And so I was like, what? And he goes, sally, just be ready. And so I got up and. And what was weird about that was that all of the producers and Psy and Hotch came to this rehearsal, and I had no idea that that was abnormal because I'd never done a Broadway, so. But they were all there in the room, and we did all of our scenes and songs, and it was just the weirdest thing. And then the next day, they told me that they had let Sharon go. And, you know, she's so talented and so gifted, and I. I idolized her. But, you know, I don't know. I don't know any of that. I just know that they said they let her go, and I burst into tears. And then they said, you're on. And I went, what? And they said, you don't have the role. You're just on. And so I. I went to the theater and worked all day and. And. And went on that night, and I walked out on stage, and I had, like, three or four friends who came because they were trying to support me. And I walked out on stage, and I said my first line, which was. I remember it vividly. Jailer, lock me up in leg irons and throw away the key. And there was this sound, and it was like a laugh roll from the back of the house, and it was this huge laugh. And I just stood there, which is like. I didn't. I. I almost, like, didn't go on because it was like I was. What. And. And like, Bill Buell, who was the jailer, like, kind of pinched my hand, and I went on. But it was like one of those kind of nights, and I had one of those kind of evenings, and I didn't know they were auditioning other people. I didn't know they. About. Who can we get for this? And who can we get for this. But whatever, they ended up giving it to me. And so. And so it was just a wonder. And, you know, that character was kind of like, Billy dawn goes to Nashville. And so it was great fun. And I had, you know, I had wonder. I had. Scott Wentworth was my leading man. I mean, golly gee, you can't get any better than that. And, you know, it was just such a great group of people, and everybody knew that it was not going well, but I was just so happy, I didn't care. I was just happy to be in it. And, you know, Marsha Mitzman, Jody Benson, Scott Wara. I mean, Sam Wright, Terry White. I mean, it was just. It was an amazing group. And Avery Schreiber and Marilyn Sokol were the stars. And Marilyn made me, like. Marilyn had me come. Marilyn had me come in and chat with her in her dressing room. It was really weird. I'm a good old Baptist from. From Texas, or I was at the time. And she had me come in her room because. Chant for what you want. And I was like, what? Okay, just. Just say what I say. And so I had to chant with her for 45 minutes. It was very unusual.

Matt Koblick (15:57)

Unusual. In the theater, you say, everything about what you're telling me with the show is so fascinating and truly very like, storybook Broadway, right? You know, you come to New York and you audition on the stage for, you know, legendary people that you have no idea how legendary they are, and you just go and you do it, and you, you know, you do the understudy rehearsal and you. And you get to go on for the night, and then you kill when you go on and you get to have the part, and it all sort of rolls that way. I mean, show, like, welcome to the club. It's one of my examples of when people look at the pedigree of a show before it comes in and start already judging it. I always say, never judge whether good or bad. You never know. Welcome to the club. Print. I also say, speaking of Hal, but, like, love music. When that show was coming to Broadway, I was like, I know the. The pedigree is amazing, but, like, wait, you don't know what it's going to be like. Women on the verge. These shows happen, and sometimes they just don't congeal. Like, there'll be parts about them that really are fantastic. Or the idea is interesting. Like, welcome to the club. It's about a New York jail for alimony violators. And that's really all I know about it.

Sally Mayes (17:00)

Well, and my favorite song in the show was called don't fuck around with your mother in law. It was hilarious. And but then when they came to see it, it was not politically correct. And so what was. This has happened to me from the beginning in show. It happened later. And I'll tell you about it later too. Remind me. But, you know, you'd be on stage and they'd be doing a number and it would stop the show and they'd yell and scream. And then after we opened and all the critics wrote about it. Cricket, Cricket. And it was like, well, wait a minute, it was funny last night, you know, and so it, it was hilarious, but it was, it was politically incorrect. And so, you know, it's like, don't fuck around. Don't fuck around. Don't fuck around with your mother in law. Don't fuck around. You know, so it's like. Anyway, so. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Matt Koblick (17:48)

I mean. So you were saying, though, how you all could kind of tell that it wasn't working. Do you have a sixth sense about that kind of stuff now, or have you had that throughout your career of when, when you're in a show and you can tell that it's all kind of clicking or when it's not clicking? Do you have, do you have a good six, six sense about that in your career so far, would you say, or. No?

Sally Mayes (18:07)

I will tell you that I have a good sixth sense about my part, and that sounds very selfish, but it's really not. Because if I'm doing the best I can do with my character and it's not working for some reason, then the whole show's not going to work right. And it's because they all have to work and they all have to fit together. And so I have a sixth sense about that. I can't tell when a show is not. I can't always tell. Sometimes it's pretty clear. I mean, there are a few, you know, I've been in two of the biggest flops on Broadway ever. And so I. You do know when you're in trouble, but, but you are hopeful and you, you know, it's like, this is going to be okay and maybe it'll run for a while. And, you know, so you just kind of, you just kind of have to do your job and, you know, you're there to serve the vision of the writers and the director. That's what your job is. And if your job, and your job also is to protect your character and your character's integrity and to do that in a way that's not being an. You Know, and so I just. I. That's what I always tried to do. But, yeah, you have a sense about. About certain shows, you know, that, you know, don't buy a newspaper tomorrow. So, you know.

Matt Koblick (19:22)

Yeah, but. And as you said before, this reminded me of something that one of my former guests, Todd Buonapane, said, because he's, you know, he's been in hits and he's been in, you know, shorter runs, and he said no matter what, you kind of always have to drink the Kool Aid a little bit when you're in rehearsals, even if a part of your brain can tell something's not cl. Clicking, just, you know, in order to go on stage and give it your all. And as you said, your performance is what. The only thing you really have control over. So it's good to know, you know, if it's clicking or not. And then if you're doing everything you can to make it work for yourself, it keeps you a little more sane if every. If all the parts around you aren't maybe moving as well. With something like she Loves Me and Closer Than Ever, which I would say are, you know, two really big moments of your career that I know a lot of people know you from. They're. They both kind. Their success, I feel like, kind of came surprisingly. She Loves Me was the first musical done at Roundabout at that time, which was not the heavy hitter on Broadway that we all know it today. She Loves Me, I would argue, and I know that everyone there would agree with me, was sort of the first thing that kind of made them a major player on Broadway. And, you know, it was this summer, limited run that did super well. And then you guys got to go to Broadway and were super beloved. And then Closer Than Ever was this, you know, review off Broadway that just kind of kept running and running and running. Surprise. I feel like success like that is so hard to predict. Success in general is hard to predict, but something like that, you know, when. Let me rephrase this, because I was setting this up and then I had a question. Then as I went on my tangent, I forgot how I wanted to phrase the question. With moments like that, success like that, where there's no really fanfare. It's just the quality is good and the people come. When do you start to look around and go, oh, I think we're onto something here? I think. I think we might have a hit here?

Sally Mayes (21:19)

Well, you know, Closer Than Ever did not get glowing reviews. It got some good reviews, and I got great reviews, and Lynn got great reviews, and Brent I mean, we all got great reviews in different papers, right? But it was, they didn't love the show. And so all of a sudden we were like, oh, because we just assumed because the material was just so wonderful and it was, it was a beautiful set and the cast was so good and you know, Patrick Brady's work on that was so genius and his arrangements and, you know, and that's where our long 21 year collaboration began, you know. And so because we did, he did everything with me for a long time. And so it was this wonderful, wonderful jewel box of an experience. And yet because of the reviews, we were not selling as well as we should have been and we were always struggling. And so it ran for nine months and that's a long run on for Off Broadway, I think. And certainly now it is. But it was like I, I had thought because of the material being as wonderful as it was that it was going to run for a really long time. And so I was kind of surprised by that. Now I would say that like with Pete and Keely later on, which we'll get to, I assume. Of course, with Pete and Keely we had audiences that were, it was like being in a rock concert. Every night we would go out and they were packed and cheering and screaming and all these celebrities and friends and everybody was coming to see it and we just, we were like planning to, you know, host the Easter Bonnet and, and to do a Pete and Keely Christmas album. We were planning all the these things and George and I just assumed because of the response. And then the reviews came out. Cricket. Cricket. And so it was like, well, okay, so I, I can be full too. I can drink the Kool aid too because I can believe in something so deeply and think that it's so wonderful. And that's not the way it's perceived by some critics. And so, you know, I, I, and I don't have any control over that once again. So it's just like you just have to do your best work and you know, in Closer Than Ever, especially. Oh my. Well, in all of them. I'm such a lucky person. I have always been given such great material. I, I mean, you know, Patrick Brady just spoon fed me those songs like There and Miss Bird and I've Been Here Before. I mean, all of these wonderful songs and it, you know, I didn't even know how much of a gift it was at the time because I was too naive. I realized it as we went on, but it was like, wow. And those will always be my songs no matter how many revivals come along and no matter how great they are, they'll always be my songs, you know, and Lynn's songs and Brent songs and Richard's songs. And so it's kind of a really amazing thing. And I cannot tell you how grateful I am to Richard and David because they, you know, that doesn't happen anymore. They don't do that. They hire a star. They. I've had to deal with that in my later career. They hire a star. And they just went, no, you're going to be the star. And they gave me, they wrote material. David Shire wrote a song for me for the show when he found out I could scat sing. I mean, how amazing is that? And that's. And it led to me meeting my husband who was the bass player in the song. And so. And I had to come to the audition for bass players and there were three guys on stage and I was over it because I was tired, you know, and I didn't want to come early. And I'm sitting there next to David Shire kind of with my coat pulled up and I'm a little pissy about it all. And these three guys walk on stage and one is like an eight foot tall Rastafarian. And then there's this little nebuchy pharmacist looking guy with little round glasses and then there's this hunky Italian. And so I'm sitting there next to David and I went, I want him pointing to the hunky Italian. And I got him in every way you could. Well, he was also the best one. He was the. He's a Juilliard graduate and he was brilliant and oh my God, all that stuff too. But he was also cute and we had chemistry and that song required chemistry and that's why I was there. And so, so all good things have come from closer than ever for me. And so I'm so eternally, incredibly grateful to all of those people. Daryl Roth. That was Daryl Roth's first show as a producer. I mean, come on. Yeah, it was amazing. Jordan. Jordan Roth, who is like a fashion icon and a big Broadway producer now, was a little boy who would sit in my dressing room and sing Miss Bird for me. I mean, and it was, it was so cute. I mean, so, you know, it was like, it, it, those memories are nothing but amazing. And we had so many times of being on stage and cracking each other up backstage and going on stage and just trying like hell to keep it together because we would just make each other laugh so much, you know, and it was at the Cherry Lane, which. I don't know if you know that theater, but when you go. If you have. Like, our dressing rooms were on one side of the theater, and we had to go to the other side for our entrance, you know, for the Doors number. Oh, what do you know? What do you know? You know, and. Because the door opens and there's a light, and then we sing. And so to get to that, though, at the Cherry Lane, you had to go down into the basement through this little tiny rock basement with water dripping on the walls, and then you had to climb up a ladder to get to this little teeny, tiny offstage area. And so it was like. It was crazy. It was crazy. It was a crazy place, and it was. It. But it was the coolest, most fun gig ever. And so, you know, I. I just. I have nothing but love for all of those people. I just saw Lynn in a show recently, and we went and had lunch and. Oh, my God, you know, just. There's just so much love there, you know?

Matt Koblick (27:33)

Absolutely.

Sally Mayes (27:34)

So wonderful.

Matt Koblick (27:35)

Well, you all have wonderful chemistry on the cast recording. And it's a brilliantly sung recording. Definitely one of the best sung albums of the 80s. I was listening to you, Brent and Lynn, doing the Friends trio. What's that song called? Yeah, I mean, just the arrangements. Yeah, Three Friends, but the arrangements and then your. Your back and forth. It's. It's just awesome. For those of you who aren't familiar with Closer Than Ever, it's the second song cycle for Malpy and Shire after Starting Here, Starting Now. They. They obviously did works, but was in between the two. Baby was on Broadway before then, but, yeah, it's a trunk show.

Sally Mayes (28:11)

Yes.

Matt Koblick (28:12)

As it's Starting Here, Starting now, songs that were, you know, written for other shows that they had done that didn't make it to Broadway or got cut from other stuff and, you know, just making into a fully fledged review. And it's wonderful. It's so good. And it's like, very much. It's. It's the. If, like, if 30 something is like the TV show that. It is like a time capsule for boomers. I feel like Closer Than Ever is sort of like the musical version of that. And, I mean, that's a boomer musical.

Sally Mayes (28:37)

It sure was. It was a boomer musical. Also, I will tell you a little note about that album. You know, Brent and I got incredibly sick. Incredibly sick during. I got it first during previews. I had to miss, like, five shows. And we were about to open, and it was Terrifying. And because I didn't have full voice when we opened because I was still sick and I was on Prednisone, and, I mean, it was horrible. And. And then Brent got it because, you know, there's all four of us singing in each other's faces. And so everybody got sick, but he had it. And we recorded the cast album right after we opened, and so both of us were, like, really struggling, and he actually came back in because that ending on what Am I Doing? Out of My Mind With Love, that one. He had to come back and do that because he was sick, you know, and. But the big thing I remember was because there were so many songs in that show, and it's an album, they did everything at warp speed. So whenever I listen to it, it's like, whoa, that's so fast. It's like, you know, I can't act Ms. Bird at that tempo. I mean, come on. And the other big story about Ms. Bird was that, you know, they put me in a swivel chair behind a desk, and then Marsha Milgram Dodge had me dance in the swivel chair, which is a good thing, because I don't really dance, but I could do the swivel chair. And, you know, they're spinning and all this kind of stuff. And we worked on it, and it was great. And we did it up in Williamstown, and it was great. And then we came into the city and we saw the rendering of the set, and it was great. And then we walked in and saw the set, and there's a rake stage. And I'm like, what's the. That's a rake stage. That's a. I have to do it. I have to spin at the end of this on the chair three times, and it's at the rake stage. Oh, you'll be fine. And so I cannot tell you how many times my heel caught on the lip of that stage. I'm in love. I never went in the audience. I am so surprised that that never happened. But it was a rake stage. Isn't that crazy that.

Matt Koblick (30:41)

I mean, you were giving. You were giving me Streisand doing Miss Marmoldein vibes with this swiveling chair. But what Streisand didn't have to deal with was a rake stage. So you know how Ginger Rogers did everything Fred Astaire did, but backwards and in heels?

Sally Mayes (30:55)

Yes.

Matt Koblick (30:55)

You did everything Streisand did, but on a rake stage.

Sally Mayes (30:58)

Well, thank you for saying that. I wish I could do everything Streisand.

Matt Koblick (31:02)

Streisand couldn't do Ms. Marmalstein on a rake stage. Or maybe she could, but she never did it. So let's.

Sally Mayes (31:08)

Let's.

Matt Koblick (31:09)

Actually, you mentioned Pete and Keely.

Sally Mayes (31:11)

Let's.

Matt Koblick (31:12)

Let's talk about that for a second. First of all, costumed by one Bob Mackie, which is, you know, not many people can say that either.

Sally Mayes (31:19)

Oh, my God. We went. George and I flew to Los Angeles and stayed at a little hotel and at separate times, actually, I stayed with my friend Patty at the beach. And we went over to his little studio in Studio City and went and stood on his podium and he had a little, you know, Ukrainian woman who didn't speak English, but she had like a. One of those little pin cushions on her wrist and her mouth was always full of pins. And she'd walk around and, you know, she'd take my boob and lift it up and she would like. If she would go, yes, we have to do this. And. And they fitted me for these costumes. And it was the most astounding thing ever. And, you know, like, I can remember because I dieted and dieted and I didn't eat and I didn't eat. And they brought the show. We got the theater really fast. And you have to take a Broadway off Broadway house when you get it. And Hausman was perfect for it. And so we took. Which is gone now, by the way. And so we. We took it and we were in rehearsals for it. And Bob comes in with the costumes. And I. I am. I'm due for a fitting the day after Thanksgiving. And I went to our family Thanksgiving, and I didn't eat much, but I did eat Thanksgiving dinner. And the next day I came in and everything was tight and. And Bob went, what did you do? I'm sorry. I'm sorry. It's so funny. And during. And during. During, like, tech. They got a slant board for me because I. He put me in stilettos and I was like, I can't wear these, Bob. They're too. They hurt. And he was like, your legs look fabulous. And I was like, okay. But they would lean me back in the. On the slant board so I could rest my feet because I was wearing Paellette dresses and I couldn't. And they were so tight that I couldn't sit down in them. So I had to stand all the time for that tech. And all that tech was really. Because there wasn't much set. Did you see that show? Show.

Matt Koblick (33:22)

I did not see that show.

Sally Mayes (33:23)

Okay, well, that show. It was just a set. It was Like a. It was like a. It was like a. A studio, you know, and so they had set pieces that they would bring on, but it was all lighting. And Mitchell, Dana did the lighting, and it was genius. And then there'd be a set piece, you know, with like Mylar flames, you know, behind George when he's singing Fever and stuff like that, you know, And. And so we just had to stand there for hours and hours and hours and hours while they lit these gorgeous lights. Black coffee, just walking from. Do you know the score to that at all?

Matt Koblick (33:57)

No. So I was actually going to ask if you would inform the listeners a bit about the show so they can get an idea of what we're talking about here.

Sally Mayes (34:02)

Okay. Well, Pete and Keely were a fictional married couple, not unlike Steven Edie, who had a very public breakup of their marriage. They were a singing couple, and they were very famous, and they had a public breakup in Las Vegas, and they went their separate ways and both of their careers kind of tanked. And so Swell Shampoo and NBC decided to bring them back for a reunion special. And they hit the stage, and you get the idea from the minute that they hit the stage that they have not spoken or rehearsed together. They just have their stick, their shtick that they do, and they come on and they're professional, they're totally pros. And then along the way, it goes off the rails completely because they start sniping at each other and. And it's very funny and it's very sweet. And so one of my big numbers was, you know, a standard called Black Coffee. And it was. And Bob did this dress, and I had this huge wig. And so all I did in that number was walk from the piano to down center. And I walked, like, in a zigzag between verses, and it was like I would walk into the next pool of light, and it was the most glorious lighting. And I mean, so, you know, it was worth it. But boy, standing in those heels all that time, I mean, it was a great. It's a great show. It's a great show.

Matt Koblick (35:29)

And it. From everything that I've read, it sounded really fantastic. And you were nominated again for that, weren't you? For Drama Desk? Yeah, yeah, yeah. I was trying to remember. You have. Listen, you have so much hardware in your. In your resume, so it's hard. I was like, I need to remember exactly what we're talking about here, because there's a theater World award for welcome to the Club, the Cy Coleman alimony musical with you, Jody Benson Samuel Wright, Terry White, and everybody. There's the Outer Critics Circle nomination and also Drama nomination for Closer Than Ever or just Outer Critic Circle.

Sally Mayes (36:03)

It was an Outer Critic Circle nomination. Lynn got the Drama Desk nomination and.

Matt Koblick (36:08)

She remembers it to this day. She's not petty. Then we won.

Sally Mayes (36:12)

We won for the show.

Matt Koblick (36:15)

Yeah. Off Broadway musical for Outer Critics Circle. Nominated for Drama Desk and Tony for She Loves Me. Correct.

Sally Mayes (36:22)

And Outer Critics.

Matt Koblick (36:23)

And Outer Critics. Now, I believe you might have lost that evening to a. Has been nobody who never went anywhere after that evening, Is that correct? One Ms. Audra Ann McDonald.

Sally Mayes (36:36)

Oh, my God, she was so sweet. She brought us all flowers. We all knew she was going to win. Marsha Lewis and I sat in the dressing room because we'd had to perform in the opening number, which was all the. With.

Matt Koblick (36:45)

Yeah, that open. That revival medley. One of my favorite openings of all time.

Sally Mayes (36:49)

Yeah. And so we had to run downstairs and get pretty, you know, and so we were sitting in the dressing room and we were in our dresses and. And our people were doing our hair. Right. And we were sitting there together looking at each other in the mirror, and our arms were kind of swinging down beside our chairs and we just kind of linked fingers and our little pinky fingers and just started swinging along together. And I looked at her and I said, this is fun. And she went, yeah, we knew, you know, we knew she was gonna. I mean, that was such a. An amazing debut, you know, for someone, I mean, so. So. And. And she's very special, obviously.

Matt Koblick (37:24)

I love that Tony's of 94. First of all, all my listeners know that Carousel is my favorite musical. That production, that specific Lincoln center production, in my opinion, is like one of the greatest things that's ever happened to Broadway. But I'm obsessed with that 94 Tony's because first of all, it's a baller lineup of revivals. It's you guys with she Loves Me, Carousel, that super fun Damn Yankees, that Weissler Grease. And I love that opening revival medley for many reasons. First of all, you've got Dan Yankees doing Shoeless Joe. And it's so fantastic. Grease with the hula hoops. During we go together, we've got you and Diane doing if I Knew His Name into Boyd doing the title song for she Loves Me. And they're like, oh. And meanwhile, Victor Garber is like singing to kind of tie them all together.

Sally Mayes (38:14)

Yeah.

Matt Koblick (38:14)

And then you. He's like, now. He's like now onto something just as high energy and fun. Carousel. And it opens with Michael Hayden dying in Sally Murphy's Arms. I'm like, this is a change of pace. And then they had you all standing on stage afterwards, singing hard. And then George Abbott, Gwen Verdon and Gene Stapleton announced the revival winner. I'm like, oh, that's ballsy. To have all the casts on stage for the winner.

Sally Mayes (38:38)

Can I just tell you that that was the most horrible moment. It's like, I loved the whole. The whole pastiche. I thought that was fun.

Matt Koblick (38:45)

Fun, yeah.

Sally Mayes (38:46)

And it was great to do, but having to be on stage for the announcement was just like. Because you have to, you know, you have to have your show face on. And it was like. And also because we knew, because our box office had been struggling, we knew that if we didn't win Revival, we weren't going to stay open. And so when they said that Carousel won the revival, it was like we were all like, okay, we're closing. It was like, you know, and so that was hard.

Matt Koblick (39:10)

Yeah, I can imagine.

Sally Mayes (39:12)

But it was. It was still great. That was. It was golden. It was wonderful. You know, I don't think that any show that Boyd Gaines is in could ever be bad because he's a genius.

Matt Koblick (39:22)

So, yeah, he's a wonderful, wonderful performer. I. I love. I don't know him as a person. I hope to one day. That's on my list of things to do, is to get to know Boyd Gaines as a person. But, you know, I.

Sally Mayes (39:35)

It's.

Matt Koblick (39:35)

It gives me something to live for. Sally. But. And then I'm trying to think, what else was that year. There was also Passion, Abe Lincoln in Illinois and Inspector Calls. What was the.

Sally Mayes (39:48)

What was the Beauty and the Beast?

Matt Koblick (39:50)

Yeah, her again. I'm a millennial gay, so Disney's very important to me, and I love Beauty and the Beast. And that was, I think, my second Broadway show.

Sally Mayes (39:58)

But let me tell you, Gary. Gary was sitting. Gary beach was a very good friend of mine. You know, he did the California. A leg of closer than ever.

Matt Koblick (40:08)

Oh, no way.

Sally Mayes (40:09)

And he was brilliant. And he did the mun's part, you know, and so I love him. Loved him dearly. And he was sitting, like, you know, a few rows down from me on the aisle. And I was on the aisle, you know, up a little bit. And during the commercial break, he walked up to me and he said, it's going to be a complete shutout of Beauty and the Beast. And our box office just went over to over a million dollars today. And I went, that's fabulous. So, you know, it's like he. He was fine with it.

Matt Koblick (40:40)

You know, that's self awareness. Yeah, yeah, it's. It's such a. It is a fascinating ceremony. And sorry to make. Sorry and not sorry to make you relive Italy because I just. I love these kind of things. I miss when Tony award ceremonies were in Broadway theaters because that meant the majority of the room had to be the community. It wasn't, you know, sell 2,000 seats in the mezzanine of Radio City Music hall to fans, which, you know, like, I love the idea of fans getting to see them. But you got a sense from the ceremony what were the shows that the Broadway community was really behind. And you can tell from like the applause that you guys get that Damn Yankees get to like, Broadway was really into your productions. And. And I also, I again, I say this as someone who. Who is obsessed with that carousel. And Carousel, you know, went into that night with one of the fewer amount of nominations and then wins them all. And the room is like not super pleased about it. And I think it's. I think part of it is the British invasion of it all, but.

Sally Mayes (41:42)

Well, you know, I didn't get to see that production because we were working that show. And then I went into something else right after that. I don't remember what. But I went to do something and. And I just. So I never saw it because it didn't. It ran for a few more. I don't think it ran another year, did it? I don't remember.

Matt Koblick (42:02)

It ran until, I think January, so.

Sally Mayes (42:05)

And I probably should have seen it. I'm sorry. Sorry I didn't see it, but. But I heard all about it and I heard how wonderful it was and she was wonderful. She's wonderful. She's a nice lady, you know. She's a nice lady.

Matt Koblick (42:18)

Hot take, guys. Sallie Mae says that Audra McDonald is wonderful.

Sally Mayes (42:21)

Well, you know that when I had. When we were doing Pete, back to Pete and Keely for a minute, her first husband, it was a bass player named Pete and he. He was playing the show because my husband had left the show with Patrick to go and open the Producers on Broadway, right. And so. And so we had Pete and it was the final performance and Audra came to see the final performance with their baby that they had just had, their daughter, right. And so she. They came and said, said she needs a place to nurse. Can she come back? And I said, yeah, send her on back. And so she came to my dressing room to nurse the baby. And so it was very. So, you know, so I. I've known her since the Very beginning of her career. And she's lovely and kind, and, you know, she's. She's a good. She's a good girl.

Matt Koblick (43:08)

She's so talented, you know, So, I mean, again, hot. Take your. Sally mae's calling Audra McDonald talented. You're really coming in hot today, saying things that are very controversial. I don't know if I can put them all on air.

Sally Mayes (43:20)

I know it's gonna.

Matt Koblick (43:21)

It's gonna be bad, you know, saying you have this good material by Malpy and Shire. Like, what? I don't. I don't know if you're trying to get canceled or what, but, like, whoa. Here is a quick thing I want to bring up, because I was looking at the credits for this show, and the cast is awesome, but there's one person in particular that made me get very. For clumped. You did an off Broadway musical called Das Barbecue, and I believe it's like a Southern telling of the ring cycle from Wagner. Is that the idea?

Sally Mayes (43:54)

It's Wagner's ring cycle set at a barbecue in Texas.

Matt Koblick (43:57)

There we go. And I only clocked this because you played someone named Broomhilda. I was like, that's not a name you just throw around like rice. That's a name you're using for a purpose. You did the show with future Oscar winner JK Simmons, Carolee Carmelo, directed by Christopher Ashley. The person who did your musical staging and choreography was a man by the name of Stephen Terrell. Does that name ring a bell to you?

Sally Mayes (44:20)

Yes.

Matt Koblick (44:22)

Stephen Terrell went on to become the head of the musical theater department at Emerson, of which I am an alum. Oh, yes. So I got to know Stephen for my four years at Emerson. He has sadly passed, but I was very close to him, so I just saw that name, and it just. It made me me. It warmed my heart for a little bit. So I hope that's funny.

Sally Mayes (44:41)

He was a funny guy.

Matt Koblick (44:43)

He is a funny guy. Yeah. I would go into his office, and we mostly just talk about everything, and then he was like, did you come in here for a reason, Matt? I was like, no.

Sally Mayes (44:53)

I think that I probably annoyed him more than anything else because I'm not a dancer, and he would want me to do things. And when I. When I'm thinking about things, I frown. Like, I have a frown on my face. And it's not that I'm frowning because I don't want to do it. It's. I'm frowning because I'm trying to figure out, okay, now how the do I do that? Because I can fake it, but I have to figure it out for myself, right? And we were, like, doing, you know, ropes and jump rope and. Oh, my God. And we were like, we. We were the. Right. We were the ring maidens at Ocarina Springs. So we had this, like. We had this wonderful, like, Mylar. No, it wasn't. It was a. It was like yana. Almost blue kiana with slits in it. And we'd come up through it and we did synchronized swimming. Oh, it was. And so it was like, hard. But I was always frowning because I was thinking about what I was doing. And he would get so mad at me because he would think that I was not liking his choreography and. And refusing to be cooperative. And I'm like, I'm just thinking, honestly.

Matt Koblick (45:50)

That sounds like Stephen.

Sally Mayes (45:51)

I know. Yeah.

Matt Koblick (45:52)

Because Stephen always wanted everyone just to get along. So if he got any sense of not attitude, but like. Like someone was unhappy. He wasn't very good at being like, do you want to talk about it? He's like, be happier.

Sally Mayes (46:03)

Yeah. Yeah. He was very. He was very abrupt that way. But we laughed a lot. Because if you think that that was a crazy show on stage, and I don't know if you've ever seen a production of it, but it's a crazy show because every time you come on stage, you're in a different costume and playing a different person, and. And so it's nuts. And if you think it was crazy on stage, it was that, you know, they built the set for Baltimore stage and then they brought it into the Manette Lane, and it was like having the Empire. It was like having, you know, lady. Lady Liberty backstage. It was like this huge. And you were climbing over set pieces and grabbing your wig. It was like. It was crazy. And it was a non union house, and so, you know, it was just crazy. But, you know, what a cast. Once again, what a cast. What great. You know, Jim Lewigs and Scott Warrender wrote this beautiful little jewel box of a musical. And it's so funny. And, you know, I think it's funny whether or not, you know, the ring cycle, but if you know the ring cycle, it's doubly funny. It's just because, I mean, they got it all in. And I think it's wonderful.

Matt Koblick (47:11)

I love. Yeah, I love things like that where you can take not higher. You know, show works that have the stigma of high art and then just have a lot of fun with it. Throw. Throw it for a loop. I think that's always was a blast. Fun fact Stephen actually directed me my senior year at Emerson in She Loves Me. How do you like that? Yes.

Sally Mayes (47:30)

Who'd you play?

Matt Koblick (47:31)

I played Sipos.

Sally Mayes (47:34)

Oh, wow.

Matt Koblick (47:35)

Yeah, I. So the year before, Stephen directed me in man of La Mancha and I played what's his face? Sancho. Sancho Panza.

Sally Mayes (47:46)

Oh, wow.

Matt Koblick (47:47)

Yeah, well, I mean, you know, we didn't have middle aged men to play Sancho Panza and he was like, ah, 21 year old. Matt, you'll do. And so we did that show and that was a lot of fun. And that was a, you know, a challenge. And then we do she Loves Me and I get cast as Sipos and I say, Stephen, I feel like this role is just Sancho and easier to sing. He's like, kinda. So I was able to relax a lot more with she Loves Me. And also I just, I think she Loves me as a, as a better script. So I was, I was having a lot more fun with the scene work. I also, our assistant director and stage manager would have all these snacks for us backstage. And as you know from the show, a lot of the shop scenes, while it is an ensemble show, Amalia and George are really the focal point of a lot of the scenes. And Steven really wanted us to never have an empty stage. He was like, it's like, yes, they're the focus. But like we, we want things going on in the background.

Sally Mayes (48:39)

And so that's exactly how it's supposed to be. He's like that.

Matt Koblick (48:42)

Yeah, but I, you know, I'm 21 and like I'm going to. Well, you know, perspective is done. My song is over. And if I didn't have a customer, I would pretend that I was taking inventory. We would be out of something in the front and I had to go to the back to get something. And that was when I would go eat snacks and then come back on stage when I had my fill of snacks, which is not, you know, that.

Sally Mayes (49:06)

I think that the great acting challenge for me for that show was, was how do you create an inner life with no dialogue? How do you create. I mean, you know, the challenge is the inner life because you have to create and score for yourself a whole day in a shop and the, and, and the behavior of a whole day in a shop. And so it was fascinating to me. And you know, I had, I had it all set up, man. I, you know, I, I counted my money and I wrote in my little, my little ledger and I did the cash register and I opened the door and I mean, and, and I would sit and just watch things and, you know, so it was. It was. It was. I thought that was a great acting challenge. So good for you.

Matt Koblick (49:48)

And you have all your different co workers, and you have a different relationship with each one. Obviously, Kodai is a very specific relationship. What I love about Alone, and I love to hear your thoughts on this and sort of how you perceived her. She is. She is a sexual character, but she's not overly sexualized in the show. She's not played for sexiness, even though she is a woman who enjoys sex. And I've always found that, unfortunately, very rare in theater.

Sally Mayes (50:16)

But, you know, what's really interesting about it is that that is not how I approached her at all, because I don't think that she's a sexual being. I think she is a being who wants to be loved, and she wants. She wants to be loved so badly. And so she keeps getting into these horrible situations with men who don't treat her right because she just wants to be loved. And so I don't think of it as she's after sex or she wants to have sex. You know, the sex thing came up. And we'll talk about this, too, probably Dirty Blonde, you know, because that. Because May was a sexual being, but. And she treated it kind of like a man treats it, you know, or like the perception of a man treats it. And Alona just wanted to be loved, and so she thought he loved her, and she thought that he was going to marry her. And she had this whole fantasy life in her head of how it was going to turn out. And so. And when it didn't, she was heartbroken. And so I don't think of it in the same way.

Matt Koblick (51:15)

The same way as me. Yeah.

Sally Mayes (51:16)

Yeah.

Matt Koblick (51:17)

That's absolutely fair, though. I think that that's what makes it such a wonderful piece, though, and. And such a rich character is it can work in either respect. And you can hear from your performance the. The earnestness and the almost innocence of the role. But you. You. There's a. There's a lightness and to the way that you do a lot of the dialogue, like with the. The bicycle boy. I'm forgetting his name now. I'm just thinking of the actor, Brad Kane.

Sally Mayes (51:42)

Brad Kane, who was our pad.

Matt Koblick (51:46)

Yes. And in fact, I got into an argument.

Sally Mayes (51:49)

You owe me a Coke.

Matt Koblick (51:50)

I do. I. I got into an argument with Stephen about this when we did the show because he wanted the character's name to be called Our pod. And I said that. I shouted, sally May says our pad. In the Broadway recording And that's what I'm going with.

Sally Mayes (52:08)

Well, I mean, I think that. I think that she is in a wild affair with this man at the beginning of the show. And so, of course, there's a sexual element, and of course it's sexy. But I'm just saying that her spine doesn't come from, oh, I want sex. Her spine comes from, oh, I want to be loved.

Matt Koblick (52:26)

Oh, yeah.

Sally Mayes (52:27)

And the sex. The sex is just part of that, you know? And I think that when she meets this man who is respectful and kind and adorable and just wants to treat her like a queen, it's like the most wonderful thing that. Because that's what she wants, you know, she didn't even know it until it happens. And, you know, I have this wonderful picture. I was looking through pictures the other day because I'm. I'm doing this thing at the Green Room, and. And I'm posting old pictures. Right. And so I. I was looking through this book, and I found this picture that I'd forgotten about. They had a night with the press people. They had a night of optometrists come to see she Loves Me. It was all optometrists in the audience. Right. And so after the show, I went out into the audience after everybody had left except for the optometrist. It was like. I think there were probably like 150 of them. Them. And they all put them in the seats in the middle, and I sat in the front, and they took a picture of me in my glasses with all of the optometrists. And I thought that that was the coolest thing. I'd forgotten all about it. It was so darling.

Matt Koblick (53:36)

That's a wonderful one. Yeah. Yeah.

Sally Mayes (53:40)

You.

Matt Koblick (53:40)

You. I realize you have. You have a whole bunch of story songs in your rep now with Trip to The Library and Ms. Bird. How so? As a performer, as an actor, I find story songs to both be a blessing and a really big challenge, you know, because you're given an arc in the song, but you also can't play the ending at the very beginning. Right. You don't want to give away the.

Sally Mayes (54:08)

That's exactly right.

Matt Koblick (54:09)

Yeah. So when you're doing a song like, say, Trip to the Library, where you, as the actor know where it has to go, Ilona knows, you know, what the ending of the story is, but you still have to be in the moment, or you have something like, Ms. Bird, how do you find your way into it as an actor?

Sally Mayes (54:26)

I treat a song like a play, and every play has a beginning, a middle, and an End. And every play has an arc. And so you just have to play. Play the play. And I think if you play the ending of the. Of the song or the ending of the play at the beginning, then you have nowhere to go. And so you have to start. I mean, I think of it as, like, starting here and going up, starts at. Starts down low. And it's like a plane taking off. It just takes off and takes off and takes off and takes off. And I will tell you that of everything that I do and that I am known for, I think that the thing that I do best is tell stories. And so. And. And a great deal of my concert work and club work and all that kind of stuff is spent telling stories, whether in song or in. Just in life. And I'm a storyteller. And so I. I eat that up. I love it. I love it, and I love. And so it's not hard for me. And what's been really interesting for me is that, you know, like, I teach some now, too. I have a residency. I'm an artist in residence at my alma mater down in Texas for a month. Every semester. I go down there and I work with. With singers, young singers, and I teach them how to tell a story through song. And it was so good for me to do that because, you know, when you have your process and you do what you do, you don't necessarily think about your process. You just do your process and you learn your stuff and you go and you go and work on it. But when you teach somebody how to do it, you have to think about it, and then you have to verbalize it. And so it's been so good for me to do. And. And, you know, it's not brain surgery. Basically, you just tell the story. It's like, you know, and I do exercise. I make them tell me stories. The first day of class, they have to come in with a story that they've written about their life. And I said, it needs to be something that has an emotional resonance for you. It doesn't have to be terribly sad or terribly happy, but it needs to be something that, you know, hits you. You. And you come in and you tell me your story. And so they all come in and they tell their story. And then we talk about how we could maybe trunet that, truncate that, and say it in five sentences. Because the rule for good patter is, like, it should be five sentences or less. And so. And if it's not, it better be a damn good story. And so. So they come in and they. And they. Then they edit it, right? And then we talk about. Now, if you were going to sing a song after you told this story, what song would that be? You know, and so. So. So then you automatically have your setup for your song, right? And so that's kind of how we start the semester. And, you know, this year, last year I did it, and Faith Prince came in at the end. And so the first that we do a spring show, and the first act is the kids, and the second act was Faith, and I did a number with her, of course. And then this year, it's going to be Jason Robert Brown. He's coming down and he's doing a concert, and they're doing the first act. And so know, it's like, it's this thing now. So I'm trying. I'm bringing my friends down to do this because it's. It's fun, you know, And I find. I never thought that I would like teaching, but I enjoy the hell out of this. It's really fun, you know, it's like. And it kind of keeps me on my toes about being honest about what I do, and, oh, maybe I could do that better, you know, so it's. It's really good. I'm sorry, am I rambling? I'm just. It's. I'm very proud of it.

Matt Koblick (57:58)

This. This is a podcast where rambling is the specialty of the house. So you're. Come right on in. Take your shoes off. Make yourself at home. Would you say it's the same approach when you're doing your concert work? Because you do a lot of concert work in between, you know, musicals?

Sally Mayes (58:15)

Yes, it is exactly the same. And you know what's really interesting? It's like, so this series that I'm doing right now, just so, you know, came from doing concerts. And I would go down to Florida, Florida, and do a concert at the Del Rey. And it would be mostly for seniors. And so I'd think, well, I should probably do jazz and standards. And so I'd go through my file cabinet and I'd, oh, I haven't done that. And I pull out, and I'm realizing, oh, I've got a lot of great stuff. And then I'll go to a university and I'll do a, you know, a drama department, and I'm like, well, I'll do my Broadway stuff. And so I do a Broadway show and I pull all my Broadway charts out, and then I'll go and do a festival and I'll do my folk and my country and my story songs and my originals and. And I realized doing this, it was like after the pandemic kind of, you know, and I realized, geez, I got a lot of great charts, I got a lot of great arrangements. And so I decided. And I can still sing most of them, some of them I have to lower a little bit. But I decided I wanted to sing them all again. And so that's what the premise of this is. And I went to several people and said, hey, I want to do this. And they'd go, oh, no, just do one show. You know, I don't know if you can sell four shows. Just do one show. And I was like, like, okay. And then I went to Ben Rimmelauer at the Green Room and he went, let's do it. Let's make it happening. Let's make it an event. And so I'm so excited because they have been so supportive about it. And I did the first one in December and it's. It was called the show, the series is called now and Then. And this one was the teaser. And so it was a hodgepodge. It was like a bunch of different stuff. And then this one that I'm doing on the 21st of February at 7 o' clock is Jazz Standard Time. And so it's all of my jazz. And. And it's like, it has been so fun to go back in and look at all that stuff. And the point that I was going to make is that when you're putting together a show, and most of the time in the last umpteen years or so, it's been a hodgepodge for me. I haven't done anything new in a while. I'll add a new song here and a new song there. But I basically just do stuff. I like to sing. And so because I have a lot. And so I from doing those things for years and years and doing different shows of these things, I have setups, I have what I say, you know, I have. I have my. I don't know if you've ever heard any of my CDs, but I have set like the Story hour was one that I had set up. It was a live one. And so you heard all my setups. But it's like, you know, it's where you set up your song and you tell the story that gets you into the song. And sometimes you don't say anything, but sometimes you do. And so if you have something that works and it gets a laugh or that hits them emotionally and sets up the song beautifully, you keep them. And so what I do is I just go back through the files and just, okay, I'll do this and I'll do this and I'll do this and I'll do this and it's wonderful because I don't have to write a show because it's really written. All I have to do is kind of figure out where everything's going to go. You know, I'm gonna start with this and I'm gonna maybe do this as a little cleanser. And then I'm going to talk about this and then I'm going to do an up tempo and then I'm going to do a funny song and then I'll do a great big ballad and like the 11 o' clock ballad comes at the end and then there's a funny closer, you know, so it's like, you know, so. And after you do it for a gazillion years, it becomes like, easy. It's like you know what you're doing and so you just, you know, and, and, and then I rehearse with whoever I'm working with and it's done. And then I just go and have a great time. And so that's how I approach it.

Matt Koblick (61:51)

First of all, I got. I have two things I want to say. I'm going to say the shorter thing now before I forget about it. So you mentioned your albums and I, I swear to God, Sally, you said it. And I had a flashback of an image in my, in my head of my childhood with my grandmother who produced your album Our Private World. Do you remember the name of the label?

Sally Mayes (62:15)

Verez Sarah Band.

Matt Koblick (62:17)

Fantastic. That is exactly what I thought. I didn't know how to pronounce it. So thanks for saying it. They did a highlight album of some of their, you know, Broadway artists solo albums. And it is the album where I first heard Liz Calloway's Metal Arc. It's where I heard Kunzy's Just In Time, Randy Graf doing the mashup of Nobody does it like Me and you can always count on me and you're the party's over. And so I did not have your album Our Private World, but I have the image of the COVID of your album because it's on the COVID of that highlight album. Does that make sense?

Sally Mayes (62:52)

Yes, it does. Totally.

Matt Koblick (62:54)

Whole level of. First of all, I then eventually listened to your whole album as well as Liz's story Goes on and Kunzy and all that because, you know, it was my gateway drug. But for anyone who's like I don't know if I want to invest in, you know, a whole album with all these different artists. I tell you all the highlight album from this label. Say them. Say their name again.

Sally Mayes (63:14)

Verez Sarah Band.

Matt Koblick (63:15)

The Res Sarah Band. The highlight album from Fred Sarah Band. It is truly like, you know, home run after home run. Harry Groener's on there, I think doing 10. It's just, like, bonkers. Incredible. Anywho, that second thing I need to say is, while as much fun as Sally and I are having with this episode, y', all, this is, technically speaking, a commercial ford concert that Ms. Mays is doing at Green 40, Room 42, on February 21st. This episode will be coming out the Thursday before then. So let's talk about that concert a little bit more since we got some tickets to sell. Don't we, Miss Sally?

Sally Mayes (63:48)

We do. We need to sell that room to the rafters. I just. I demand it. You know, what I said to Ben was, you know, I really don't care. I mean, I want you guys to make money, but I don't care if I get press. I don't care if I make a lot of money. I just want to make enough to be able to pay my musicians, and I want it to be a good audience that loves what I do, and so I can just. Just have fun. And he said, well, we can do better than that. And I was like, okay. And so the first one was sold, sold, sold. And this one right now is like, you know, it's kind of the same place that the other one was at this time. And so we've got a few weeks, and we're gonna keep pushing and pressing, but I want it to. I want it to do well because it's good. It's going to be a good show. It's Ted Firth and Tom Hubbard, and my husband doesn't play bass anymore, so I have to get other bass players. And you can't do much better than Tom Hubbard. And so. And then Ted, of course, is. He's like, genius. And so we're doing my jazz and my standards, and it's so much fun. And I mean, you know, I have arrangements by Tex Arnold and Mike Renzi and Billy Stritch and Ted Firth and Patrick Brady. And so it's just like, I have the. This plethora of amazing arrangements, and I just really wanted people to hear them again, you know, and I wanted to sing them again. And. And. And, you know, I sit in the rehearsal room, and, you know, I'm behind Ted, you know, singing. And so he can't see me, but, like, tears just roll down my face because there's so many memories connected with every one of these songs and every one of these arrangements, you know, and a time in my life when I was doing that and. Oh, that's right after I had my son. That's like the. You know, and so you just have all these wonderful memories and. And, you know, it's like. It's not even me. It's the arrangements. The arrangements are gorgeous. And I. I mean, you know, you're not going to get much dirt out of me because, golly gee, I feel like the luckiest woman in the world. I feel like I have been so blessed to be able to work with such a caliber of people in my life. They're all. All so amazing. And I just. I'm like. Like this kid in a candy store. It's like, wow, I get to do this, you know?

Matt Koblick (66:10)

Yeah.

Sally Mayes (66:11)

And so. And so I. I just have had the most fun. And I will tell you that if there is something that I love more than anything else, it is being in the recording studio. And so going back and listening to all these albums again to relearn these lyrics has been such a treat for me. To hear how my voice sounded then, how it's changed, how. How it's matured and just. It's just. It's just a kick. I have just had the best time.

Matt Koblick (66:38)

Yeah.

Sally Mayes (66:39)

So your.

Matt Koblick (66:39)

Your voice is a wonderful, special kind of voice. It's so clear, but it's got such not heft. It's not a heavy voice, but it's got guts behind it. You know what I mean? It's. It comes from a clearly organic, heated place, which makes it so. So personable. And I'm really looking forward to your concerts because I can only imagine with the intimacy of a room. And granted, green room 42, the way that that room is designed, it's where you're sitting. You may not feel super intimate, but it's more intimate than, you know, a big Broadway theater. But that intimacy, I feel like will just smack someone in the face when they come see you. And I, I can only urge my listeners to go and. And get to step in and get those tickets.

Sally Mayes (67:27)

Oh, it's going to be so fun. And if you can't come stream it, we're streaming, you know, we're live streaming.

Matt Koblick (67:32)

I'll put. I'll put the link to the stream in the, in the. In the bio for this episode. I'll make sure that the right People send me the link for that. So they know and people know to go.

Sally Mayes (67:41)

And the room is not that big. And so, you know, I think.

Matt Koblick (67:45)

But it's long, you know what I mean? It's like, it's a little narrow. So, like, if you're.

Sally Mayes (67:49)

Every seat is a pretty good seat, I think. But also I. I would. I would challenge you and say, I want you to sit in back corner and I'm going to get you. I'm going to get you anyway, because I can do that. And so I'm going to get you with my intimacy and my stories, even if you're sitting in the back corner. So there.

Matt Koblick (68:09)

That, ladies and gentlemen, is confidence. Speaking of confidence, can we talk for a second about my gay awakening of 2002, which was the post the poster or one of your Broadway musicals? I think you know where this is going.

Sally Mayes (68:28)

Yeah.

Matt Koblick (68:29)

A 20 something Matt Kavanaugh shirt, open, oiled up, like he's in ancient Rome for a musical called Urban Cowboy. Now what's Urban Cowboy about? Don't know, don't care. That poster, though, was very important to me. I had it on the back of my wall and I told my parents it was just because I was obsessed with Broadway way. Now that is true.

Sally Mayes (68:53)

Did they. And they believe that?

Matt Koblick (68:54)

Well, to be fair, it was sitting right next to my poster of Caroline or change. So they were like, I don't know. Could be true, but. But I did have it up there for way longer than I should have. How did Urban Cowboy come into your life?

Sally Mayes (69:10)

Well, first of all, let me just say that that show was like being on a southern country, Titanic. And it was the crazy.

Matt Koblick (69:21)

You said you weren't gonna spill tea.

Sally Mayes (69:23)

Well, that's not spilling tea. That's the truth.

Matt Koblick (69:26)

It is the truth. It is the truth.

Sally Mayes (69:28)

It was, it was just. Oh, my God. And so the way that that happened was I auditioned for it when Phil Osterman, who died right after I auditioned for. For him. I don't think they're connected. No, I auditioned for him and I had been cast in this show and I read. I remember reading with Leo Burmeister and who played my husband in the show.

Matt Koblick (69:57)

Original, Original. Tonardi and Les Mis, Everybody.

Sally Mayes (70:00)

Yes, yes. Eight and eight Broadway shows and 250 movies. He was my gift for that show. I. I auditioned with him and I sang a song that I wrote. And you know, and they just. And. And I remember Phil Osterman looked at me and he said, well, you're just the real deal, aren't you? And I said, well, thank you. I hope so. And he cast me. But, yeah, it was just. It was hard. And I mean, I basically just kind of kept to myself and stayed in my dressing room. And I mean, I can tell you, because this is a fact, the police were called because one day the dancers were warming up naked in the. In the workout room upstairs in the windows, naked. Hanging in the windows, naked. So the police got. And I mean, you know, it was just. And. And they were all beautiful and lovely and kind and sweet people, and I loved every single one of them. They were just having fun. You. But it was just not what I was used to. And so I. I just was. I, you know, I had a little boy and I had a house and a family, and I, you know, and so I did my work and I came home and I didn't go hang out at the bars, and I didn't, you know, I didn't do all that stuff. And so I didn't see a lot of the things that happened with that. I know that we got reviewed and like, I can review. Remember, what happened was they killed the show. And then over the next few months, they kept killing it. Every time they wrote a review of any show on Broadway, they talked about our show and how horrible it was. So it was like it. You couldn't get away from it. And they talked about. The women were all. And, you know, and it was. And it was. It was not fun, you know, and we were. We were trying to get people to come and see it, and we were giving away comps and everything. And, you know, God bless Chase Mishkin and Leonard Solway. They kept it open. It was supposed to close. And on the night it closed, Lonnie Price got up and made a speech and said, it's, you know, we're going to keep it open. And so they. God bless them, they did that. You know, that's great. But it was. It was just. It was a lot of things, but it was not Gillies. The good part of that show was that Jen Colella was amazing, and I love her. She is my friend, my heart friend. I love her. And Matt Kavanaugh was a darling. Marcus Chait, very talented. Jody Stevens is one of my best this day, I mean, you know, and Leo. I mean, the gift for me was Leo because I got to do scenes with that man, and that man had cred. That man was a brilliant actor. And so I got to, like, I got to act with him. And so. And, you know, and Jason Robert Brown was leading the band and wrote some of the songs for the show. And my songs in the show were wonderful. And so, you know, I got Jeff Bloom and Krantz wrote me a hilarious song. And then, and then I had that country western. I don't even remember who wrote it, but it was something that we do. It was a song that Clint Black and Lisa Hartman sang together and it was beautiful. And so, I mean, I, I, you know, I was fine, but it was kind of like watching the Titanic because they just kept reviewing us over and over and over again. Hits kept coming and they were waiting for Tony nominations. And I think if we had gotten. Gotten a few acting ones that they probably would have tried to keep it open. But we did not. And we didn't get a musical nomination. So, you know, they closed it down.

Matt Koblick (73:41)

And you know, well, you got a drama desk nomination. Let us not slouch that, please.

Sally Mayes (73:46)

I did get that.

Matt Koblick (73:47)

You did get that.

Sally Mayes (73:49)

I think Jen got a Outer critics maybe. And I got the drama ness nomination. And you know, it was, it was, it was just so interesting because I had not done a Broadway show because I stopped and had a baby. And so I had not done a Broadway show and I'd done Pete and Keely and, And I had not done a Broadway show since she Loves Me. And so I'd done a bunch of off Broadway stuff and I'd done a movie or two and then I had a baby and you know, and so I just, I wasn't doing Broadway shows and so it was like, welcome to the new Broadway way. Because it changed. It really changed.

Matt Koblick (74:30)

Yeah.

Sally Mayes (74:31)

And so I, you know, it was just, it was a very interesting situation and not my favorite memory, but, you know, but I will say once again, I was given great material and I had great actor, great. I had a great co star, I had great people that I loved very much on that production. So, you know, and Chase was a doll baby and so was Leonard. They worked so hard to keep that show open. So I'm very, very grateful for that.

Matt Koblick (75:00)

You know, I mean, listen, it's. I think if you found any good things from any experience that makes it a notch on your belt as far as I'm concerned. And I also want to say, by the way, fun fact, I forgot that this show actually opened on my birthday, on my 13th birthday. And I always remember that I share, I share opening nights with you guys, Patti LuPone, Gypsy, and those are the only ones that I can remember right now. But it's all always burned my brain for that reason. I think, though, what's so interesting about. And I'm going to steer it away from Urban Cowboy and sort of more talk about this in general.

Sally Mayes (75:37)

Thank you. Thank you.

Matt Koblick (75:43)

More about in general, because this happened last year with Batsinderella, a show that I did not think was good at all, but I thought it was unfairly the punching bag of the season. And, and what, what has happened with Broadway now, in my experience, is that, you know, I, I appreciate how much we all say we want to lift each other up, support each other's work and, and be kind, and that's wonderful. But with that has now also come a veneer of toxic positivity. And we're not necessarily holding each other accountable to good work. We're not being. Being constructively honest. We're just being nice. And that doesn't stop us from having the thoughts of that's not working. I don't like this. This is making me feel a certain kind of way. We're just being told to suppress it for the sake of Kumbaya. And then when a show comes along that everyone has agreed upon, oh, that's the safe one to throw darts at, it gets such a bad treatment that, that it's. You start to go like, this is. This doesn't make any sense. And it's because we've suppressed how we're feeling about so many other things that we then take it out on this one thing. It, like it's, you know, when you are in therapy and you hit the pillow, you don't actually hate the pillow. It's about everything else that's happened and you're allowed to take it out on the pillow. You know what I mean?

Sally Mayes (77:03)

I will tell you this. Whenever I hear the phrase it's all good, I want to punch them in the face because, no, no, it is not all good. It's never all going to be good. And if you think it's all good, then you're an idiot. And that's how I feel.

Matt Koblick (77:20)

I am loving you, Ms. Mays. We are. We are. We are two Ms. Birds of a feather. Let me say that.

Sally Mayes (77:26)

Well, it's just not. It's not all good. And, you know, like, I did one show that I shall remain nameless. And, and we were in previews and it was like, I would say it was about 75% there and maybe 60% there. It needed some work. And we would go on stage and we would do our show. And you can feel the eggy places as a performer, you know, when it's not working. And so we would come out for notes after the show, and they go, oh, you were just wonderful. Go home. Because they'd fallen in love with their show. And when you. It's a. It's a fatal mistake. You cannot fall. You have to be able to kill your babies. Oh, yeah. You have to be able to kill your babies. You have to be able to rewrite. You have to be brutal. Brutal. You have to go, this isn't working. And it's going. And you have to replace it with something that does. And, and if they don't do that, then you are, you know, you're really basically just going in this cycle of, it doesn't work. It doesn't work, it doesn't work. It closed, you know. Yeah. So, you know, and, and, and so you. You can't say it's all good, and you can't say it's, go home. It's perfect. And yet my job, Job as an actor and what I am hired to do is to do what you envision. You, the producer, you, the writer, what you envision, and the director, what you envision this to be. That's my job, and I'm going to do that for you. However, if it's something that I really think is against the character, I am going to talk to you about it, and I will do that in a perfectly professional and nice way. But. But I have to talk about it because otherwise it's. I'm not a difficult person, but if you tell me to do something and it doesn't make sense to me, I can't. It's not that I don't want to. I will try. I will work my ass off to try to make it work. But if it doesn't make sense to me, logically, emotionally, as an actor, I cannot do it. And so it's like, I have to do that. I have to be able to speak up. And people that know me really well want me to speak up because. Because I have been doing this a long time, and maybe I know a little something, you know, I don't know how to write a show, maybe, or I don't know how to make a. I don't know how to direct a show, maybe, but I know what my character needs, you know, so, well, it's.

Matt Koblick (79:43)

Theater is the ultimate collaborative process. Right. You know, the. And actually, so I've been listening to the Office Ladies podcast, which is Jenna Fisher and Angela Kinsey, stars of the Office, doing it's, you know, office rewatch. But they bring people on, on from the cast and all that. And they talked about what made it such a charmed experience. And one of the things is, you know, it started with the head writer and showrunner and went all the way down, which was just always the best idea wins. It doesn't matter who it's from. Doesn't matter when it came, you know, throw it in. If it works, it works, and we move on. So, like, they talked about how there's this. There was this one cold open of the office that's pretty famous. And it actually was a combination of ideas from many different people. The idea started. Started with the writer of the episode, but they couldn't figure out exactly how it was going to get done. They go to the table, reading the actors are pitching ideas. They go with two of them, and they're like, we'll do alternates of both of them and see which one fits better. They shoot it. And on the day they shoot, a camera guy has an idea for a button for one of the jokes to make it land better. So it's this famous opening. Now, that came from, like, five different people. And that's collaboration. You know, it's you. You can't just. Just settle for what you think is right and saying, like, I'm gonna command this ship. You gotta listen to everybody. Also, other thing I remembered what. Now reading the Mike Nichols biography by Mark Harris. And Nichols famously was the producer of the original production of Annie, which was, you know, a disaster in Goodspeed. He goes to see it, thinks that there's something there, brings it to dc, where they go out of town, where they. They get incredible rave reviews, and they go into the hotel afterwards, and Nichols goes, okay, so what changes are we making? And they go, changes. Do you. Did you read those reviews, Mike? Like, we're a hit. And he goes, yeah, it can get better. We can make it better.

Sally Mayes (81:30)

It can always get better.

Matt Koblick (81:32)

Yeah.

Sally Mayes (81:32)

Let me just tell you that being on the other side of the table now, because I've written a show for myself. It's called Contradiction of the Southern Soul. And I've got producers, and I'm working on it, and I'm trying to do productions of it out in the regions where nobody sees it, so I can fix it and make it better, you know? And so. And then Pandemic happened, and then. And then we're just getting going again with it. And one of the hardest things for me to do the first time we did a workshop of it was to kill my babies. It was hard for me to let go of those things. And so my director who is my dear friend Brett Cullen would say to me. Noted television and film actor Brett Cullen. He would say to me, me, we got to cut that. We got to cut the old lady. It doesn't go and it upsets the flow. And I'd go, but it's so, you know, and so I say, okay, I have to go home and think about it. And so I would go home and think about it and then I'd go, okay. And I'd come back and go, okay, we're cutting it, you know, But I had to have that moment of grieving that part and, and grieving that little song or grieving that little monologue, and I had to have that. But you have to be ruthless and you have to be able to see past your own own ego and your own, your own love for your material. And you have to be able to just go, that practically doesn't work. And we need to make it better. And so, which is why I want to go and work on this because I think it's pretty good right now. I think it can be better, you know, and so I want to go and work on it because running it is what's going to let me find that because it's a one woman training show. And so running it is going to be the best thing because I will know what works after a week of doing it.

Matt Koblick (83:10)

But there's a difference between ego and confidence, right? Confidence is. No, is knowing you have something to bring to the table. And ego is thinking you have the only thing worth bringing to the table. And so I agree with you. I, I am working on a play myself and we've been doing readings for the past year. It's about making the best thing possible. It's not about, about, you know, having the, the right idea from the start and never being wrong. You gotta always aim to make it better.

Sally Mayes (83:38)

Yeah.

Matt Koblick (83:39)

And on that note, Ms. Sally Mays, I want us to go about the rest of our evenings because we both gotta eat and we both gotta sleep. So let's remind the listeners I have.

Sally Mayes (83:50)

A concert coming up at Green Room 42 on February 21st and it's at 7pm and my musical director is Ted Firth and my bassist is Tom Hubbard and we are doing jazz time and it's going to be so off the charts fun and you should come or stream. And I'm thrilled to death even be doing this anymore. I mean, My God, I'm 64 years old. I'm thrilled to even be able to phonate.

Matt Koblick (84:19)

You are an inspiration to myself. And to anyone who has the taste and intelligence to know. Ms. Ali, where can people find you if you want them to find you? Do you have, have any kind of website or social media that people can proclaim their love to you on?

Sally Mayes (84:36)

Www.sallymayes.net and there's a place you can write stuff. And I have, I have a Facebook and I have Instagram. I'm Sally Mays on those and I'm not on, I'm not on X. And I just got started on that threads thing. I haven't figured it out yet. So I'm so bad at all this.

Matt Koblick (84:59)

So it's like no one has figured out threads. Anyone who says figured out threads is lying to your face.

Sally Mayes (85:04)

Well, I just don't understand it. But, you know, it's like. And also I realized that it's just such a time suck. And so I, I really just use it now for, you know, promoting things and seeing pictures of my friend's kids, you know, which is kind of nice, you know, but I don't want to see what you had for dinner. And I don't, I don't, you know, I, I just don't have time. Time. I just don't have time. We didn't talk about so many things. Oh my God. Well, I'm glad we did and thank you.

Matt Koblick (85:36)

We'll have to do it. We'll have to do a two part. We didn't get to talk about you and Bye Bye Birdie, the TV film. We didn't get to talk about you on one of the most iconic episodes of Sex and the City or this I call him interview that you did with Ms. Lilius White. I mean, there's, that's right, you, you had a wonderful, you still are having a wonderful career. So it's, there's, there's always more to discuss. Discuss. And we will get to it at another point, I'm sure. But for now, this was a very meaty bonus episode for all of my phenomenal listeners. Uncultured I call them, because the whole point of this podcast is to get them cultured. If you want to follow me on social media guys, it's at Matt Koplik, Usual spelling. If you like the podcast, you can give us a nice five star rating or review. Ms. Sally, we always close out every episode with a Broadway diva to place out in post. And I can think of no one better than you. We are going to. But you get, you get to have a choice.

Sally Mayes (86:27)

It's.

Matt Koblick (86:27)

I'm, I've decided I want to be a closer than ever track. Would you rather it be Ms. Bird or you want to be my friend?

Sally Mayes (86:33)

Oh, go with Ms. Bird, Ms. Bird.

Matt Koblick (86:36)

I think that's a good choice. I mean, you are very ferocious and you want to be my friend, But I think Ms. Bird shows off that nice scatter.

Sally Mayes (86:43)

It's not as friendly.

Matt Koblick (86:46)

It is not as friendly. That is true. All right, take it away, Sex Alley. Thanks, guys, for listening.

Sally Mayes (86:52)

Bye. No letter Mum's the word Heard melodies are sweet but those unheard of.