Broadway Breakdown: "TORCH SONG TRILOGY w/ Mom!"
Date: November 10, 2022
Host: Matt Koplik
Guest: Danny Tickton Koplik (Matt's mother)
Overview
In this episode of "Broadway Breakdown", host Matt Koplik and his mother, Danny Tickton Koplik, take a deep dive into Harvey Fierstein’s seminal play "Torch Song Trilogy." The conversation explores the play’s history, its impact on Broadway, the evolution of queer representation, and Matt and Danny’s personal reactions—anchored by the mother-son dynamic that mirrors the play’s third act. The episode is marked by humor, heart, insightful theatre commentary, and candid mother-son banter.
Key Discussion Points & Insights
1. Introduction and Context of "Torch Song Trilogy"
[03:47]
- Danny: Summarizes the plot: "It is about an out gay drag queen who...is more sensitive than stereotypes might suggest...and he falls in love with a bisexual man."
- Matt: Explains its three-part structure: "Act one is called the International Stud. Act two is called Fugue in a Nursery, and three is Widows and Children First."
2. Personal Connection and History
[01:51 – 02:22]
- Matt: Asks his mother about her recollections of the play and Harvey Fierstein’s rise.
- Danny: Did not see it when it first arrived on the scene, though she lived through its era.
3. The Structure: Plot vs. Theme
[03:47 – 06:10]
- "What's it about?" vs. "What's the plot?" Danny and Matt differentiate between the narrative and the deeper thematic content:
- Central theme: "Arnold stays true to himself...Other people change, and he stays very true to himself."
- The trilogy covers Arnold’s journey through love, loss, family and self-acceptance across three life stages.
4. The Iconic Third Act: The Mother-Son Showdown
[06:10 – 07:08]
- The arrival of Arnold’s mother in Act 3 (originally played by Estelle Getty) injects familial conflict and intergenerational drama into the story.
- Danny notes the emotional engagement: "If we go with the fidget meter, I didn't fidget at all over a quadrillion hours."
5. Blending Humor and Heartbreak
[07:46 – 08:52, 11:42]
- Matt discusses Harvey Fierstein’s process: "You couldn't lecture an audience. It had to be a conversation...what better way to let an audience in than humor?"
- Comedy is used as an entry point for difficult truths: "It played as comedy because it was so true...it played as comedy because it was so true."
6. Genesis and Development of the Play
[08:04 – 14:00]
- Arnold’s story is semi-autobiographical for Fierstein; many situations are pulled from his life.
- The trilogy emerged strategically so Fierstein could guarantee himself a slot at La Mama—"tell her it’s a trilogy...it guaranteed Harvey Fierstein a slot for the next two years."
- The famous "backroom scene" is rooted in real experience.
7. Casting and the Show’s Move to Broadway
[17:39 – 19:43]
- Despite early commercial failures, glowing reviews saved the show and propelled it to Broadway, where it became a hit and won Fierstein the Tony.
- Fierstein’s unique voice suffered during the run; his performances are marked by vocal strain in recordings.
8. Act-by-Act Analysis and Character Focus
[19:46 – 32:17]
- Danny prefers Act 1 and Act 3, finding Act 2 too “messy”—Matt appreciates Act 2’s development of the female character Laurel.
- Laurel’s complicated reaction to Ed’s bisexuality and infidelity is discussed with nuance ("She put up with a lot.")
- "Ed acted like a stereotypical macho male prick toward his wife."—Danny, [27:03]
- The play wrestles with norms, binary views of sexuality, and the struggle for authenticity.
- Arnold’s growth is charted through his responses to unrequited love, self-worth, and eventual emotional maturity.
9. Emotional Honesty, Mistakes, and Redemption
[36:13 – 38:23]
- "People make mistakes." – Ed
- Matt delves into how Arnold, like many today, can be rigid in defining people by their mistakes.
- Theme of unconditional love, particularly parent to child, and the struggle for respect and acceptance.
10. Motherhood, Conditional and Unconditional Love
[38:23 – 45:54]
- Matt and Danny analyze the parental dynamic, comparing Arnold’s mother’s struggle to modern attitudes.
- "There is a fantasy that you’re gonna have unconditional love...but because we’re all flawed, we can’t really give unconditional love." – Danny, [39:48]
- The theme of parents seeing children as reflections of themselves and the pain caused by unmet expectations is front and center.
11. Societal Pressures, Sex, and Heteronormativity
[45:54 – 56:56]
- Matt critiques how heterosexual norms are “flaunted” yet denied, while gay men are accused of “throwing sexuality in your face.”
- Anecdotes about family and societal expectations for children’s lives, i.e., marriage and babies, and the double standards of what’s "acceptable" to discuss.
12. Relevance of the Play's Era: AIDS and its Shadow
[57:38 – 59:14]
- The trilogy was written mostly pre-AIDS epidemic, which colors the representation of queer love and risk.
- “When they say that Alan died...you go, 'Oh God, it’s AIDS.' But [it’s] because of when it was written...the play is technically pre-AIDS.” – Matt
13. Relating Play Themes to Personal Lives
[75:12 – 83:27]
- Matt draws parallels between Arnold’s story and his own past relationships and emotional growth, discussing “unconditional love” for someone who has caused pain.
- "[The] weird kind of unconditional love where eventually the pain hurts less, you grow from the scars, and you end up just seeing someone you care about really struggling, and it hurts to see them struggle.” – Matt, [77:38]
Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments
“One of the major reasons I brought you on to this podcast for this particular play, Mama, is because of Act 3. Because who shows up for Act 3?”
– Matt, [06:04]
“So Arnold...is the string that holds all three acts together.”
– Matt, [05:27]
“If you’re gay and the only people who know you’re gay are the ones you’re gaying with, that’s the closet.”
– Danny, paraphrasing the play, [22:19]
“People make mistakes.”
– Ed, [36:13]
“There is a fantasy that you’re gonna have unconditional love from children to parents and parents to children. And the fact that Arnold then is going to be adopting this young man, David, is another parental thing.”
– Danny, [39:48]
“Normal is not a real word, everybody.”
– Matt, [53:31]
“Unconditional love: I think we’re all capable of it. We’re not all capable of it all the time, even with parents and children.”
– Matt, [39:51]
“You don't want to forget him, do you?...That pain doesn't go away. You learn to live with it.”
– Estelle Getty's character, paraphrased by Matt, [70:03]
Important Timestamps & Segments
- 00:33 – 01:51: Introductions, establishing guest and episode focus
- 03:47 – 07:08: Overview of "Torch Song Trilogy" plot and themes
- 11:25 – 14:00: How humor worked in the play and its real-life inspirations
- 17:39 – 19:43: Broadway transfer, casting, and Harvey Fierstein’s Tony win
- 22:19 – 24:00: "The Closet" and sexual identity
- 36:13 – 38:23: Human error, generational attitudes, and the risk of defining people by mistakes
- 39:47 – 45:54: Parental love, expectations, and generational conflict
- 53:31 – 55:25: Deconstructing "normal"
- 58:04 – 59:14: The shadow of AIDS and its effect on queer storytelling
- 70:03 – 71:54: The pain of loss and the mother-son reconciliation scene
Closing Reflections
- Matt and Danny draw frequent connections between the play and their personal lives, offering rich insight into both the art and the reality it reflects.
- The play’s themes of identity, unconditional love, loss, and chosen family remain powerfully relevant.
- The mother-son dynamic in the episode provides a palpable emotional parallel to Arnold and his mother in Act 3.
Additional Insights
- The episode ends with a brief history of the play’s legacy, its revivals, and a game connecting the show to other Broadway productions (Six Degrees of Jeanine Tesori/Sally Murphy).
- Danny’s closing thoughts highlight the pain in the mother-son scenes: “It hurt me like a stake in my heart, you know, that someone could reject their child that way.” [65:58]
- Matt’s closing: “What Arnold wants is someone in his corner. And by Act 3, he does have at least two people there.” [85:20]
Links & Further Reading:
- bwaybreakdown.substack.com
- For more from Matt’s mom: DTKResources.com
This episode is essential listening for anyone interested in queer theatre history, mother-son relationships, and the enduring humanity at the heart of Broadway’s greatest plays.