Broadway Breakdown: URINETOWN w/ Marc Tumminelli
Podcast: Broadway Breakdown
Host: Matt Koplik
Guest: Marc Tumminelli
Episode Date: November 24, 2022
Episode Overview
This episode of Broadway Breakdown dives deep into the off-Broadway-to-Broadway transfer, URINETOWN. Host Matt Koplik welcomes back Marc Tumminelli (fellow podcast host, Broadway Workshop director) for a raucous, passionate, and highly opinionated discussion. The pair recount personal connections to the show, analyze its structural genius, dissect its musical and comedic influences, and reflect on its impact and legacy as a groundbreaking, meta-commentary satire. As always, there’s irreverence, inside-Broadway gossip, and a cascade of memorable moments — all in the spirit of celebrating musical theatre’s oddest and bravest.
Key Topics & Discussion Points
1. Personal Histories with Urinetown (02:11–04:11)
- Marc’s Experience: Saw the original Broadway production multiple times using a post-9/11 ticket initiative; describes it as "musical comedy perfection" and shares longing to direct the show, currently battling with rights holders.
- Matt's Experience: Only saw amateur and regional productions, heard about the Broadway version through older theatre kids reenacting favorite scenes (Skylar Astin as Officer Lockstock’s slow-mo run), and found the bootleg on YouTube later in life.
“I was truly… it's like musical comedy perfection to me. So I have a great love for the show.” — Marc (02:11)
2. The Comedy and Satire of Urinetown (06:20–09:42)
- Comedic Style: The show’s machine-gun joke density, demands subtle serious acting to land the humor—a "Law & Order, but in a musical" approach.
- Influences: Parallels to Airplane! and South Park — straight-faced delivery is the key to the comedy’s success.
- Bootleg Praise: The original Broadway cast bootleg is held up as a masterclass in musical comedy timing.
“It is very rare that there's real musical comedy where it's like there's a joke every three seconds. Yes. And Urinetown delivers that in a way that very few shows can.” — Marc (06:20)
“It’s Threepenny Opera by way of South Park.” — Matt (08:49)
3. The Show’s Development and Legacy (10:20–13:12)
- Writers’ Backgrounds: Greg Kotis and Mark Hollmann, both based in Chicago, developed Urinetown over years, struggled to get Chicago theatres interested until success at the New York Fringe Festival snowballed into off-Broadway/Broadway productions.
- Aftermath: The creative team mostly faded from New York post-Urinetown.
- Meta-commentary: The show is both a satire of social systems (capitalism, bureaucracy) and musical theatre structure/tropes.
4. What is Urinetown About? (11:19–15:39)
- Plot Summary: In a dystopian city with a water shortage, citizens must pay to use public toilets or risk being sent to "Urinetown" — a mysterious, fatal punishment.
- Main Characters: Bobby Strong (rebellious everyman), Hope Cladwell (naive ingenue, Cladwell’s daughter), Officer Lockstock (narrator/enforcer), Little Sally (child sidekick and meta-commentator).
- Satirical Elements: Spoofs elements of Threepenny Opera, Les Mis, bureaucracy, and American musical theatre’s own rules.
“It's a musical about people having to pay to pee. And we are not that far off from that at any time here in America.” — Marc (12:29)
5. The Importance of Tone & Staging (07:13–08:49; 42:34–43:10)
- Straight-faced Satire: Director John Rando instructed the original cast to play everything with earnest seriousness, never "winking" at the audience. Many school/amateur productions err by going “too broad.”
- Comparison to Airplane!: “All those jokes … there’s trouble in the cockpit. What is it? … That to me is what a joke is.” — Marc
6. Original Broadway Cast & Backstage Drama (18:28–25:46)
- Comedic Standouts: Special praise for Spencer Kayden (Little Sally) and the unique chemistry of the ensemble.
- Casting Drama: Only Spencer Kayden transferred from Fringe to Broadway. Lawsuits erupted over claims of stolen staging and regional theaters copying the Broadway production after its run.
7. The Show’s Origin Story (20:08–22:12)
- Greg Kotis’ Eureka Moment: Forced to pay for public toilets while backpacking in Europe, inspiring the premise that would become Urinetown.
- Environmental & Political Satire: The writers’ political awareness shaped the show’s themes.
8. The Show’s Structure and Satirical Devices (43:10–55:06)
- Meta-narration: Officer Lockstock and Little Sally regularly break the fourth wall, discussing musical convention and narrative mechanics.
- Favorite Moments:
- Officer Lockstock refusing to explain “Urinetown” in Act I: “I can’t just blurt out, there is no Urinetown. We just kill people.”
- Hope’s ingenue humor, especially in “Don’t Be the Bunny”:
“Bunnies don’t drive cars. Don’t they, Hope? No, actually, I don’t think they do.”
- Snuff That Girl choreography as “angry snapping”: John Carrafa’s vision ensured the dance numbers looked slightly beyond the actors’ reach, “real people in a musical who think they’re Sid Charisse and Fred Astaire.”
9. Musical & Score Analysis (45:58–47:36)
- Musical Influences: Score fuses influences from Kurt Weill, Brecht, Blitzstein (Threepenny Opera, Cradle Will Rock), Les Mis, and West Side Story.
- Vocals & Replacements: Nancy Opel’s belt redefined Pennywise, despite originally writing the role for a classical soprano (Victoria Clark type).
- Favorite Songs:
- Marc: “I See a River,” “Follow Your Heart” (for ingenue moments).
- Matt: “Follow Your Heart,” Act I finale, and to watch, “Snuff That Girl.”
10. Standout Characters & Performances (56:08–58:29)
- Marc: Hope Cladwell (Jennifer Laura Thompson), for blending comedy chops with a luminous soprano.
- Matt: Officer Lockstock (Jeff McCarthy) for the meta-humor, plus all Officer Lockstock/Little Sally exchanges.
11. Social & Political Satire – The Dark Endgame (70:28–77:05)
- Plot Endgame: After the revolution, when people finally “pee for free,” the water is quickly depleted, and society collapses anyway. The show ends with “Hail Malthus,” a reference to economist Thomas Malthus’s theory that population will always outgrow resources.
- Marc’s Critique: The “Hail Malthus” ending may be too inside-baseball for most audiences, risking confusion.
“Despite all the amazing jokes... there is a dark undercurrent to it.” — Matt (75:05)
12. Broadway & Cultural Impact (92:32–98:39)
- Meta-musicals After Urinetown: Paved the way for meta-comedy musicals (Spamalot, Something Rotten, Shrek, etc.), but none blend commentary and substance as deftly.
- Forbidden Broadway Redundancy: As more shows commented on themselves, Forbidden Broadway became less relevant.
13. Awards & Closure (95:03–99:08)
- Post-9/11 Broadway: Despite positive reviews, some wondered if NYC was ready for a black comedy about social collapse.
- Awards:
- Lost Best Musical to Thoroughly Modern Millie
- Won Best Score, Best Book, Best Direction — a rare trifecta for a non-musical winner.
- Reason for Closing: Forced to vacate the Henry Miller Theatre due to building demolition (“the Sondheim” now stands there).
14. Fun & Favorite Quotes
“Knowing me just makes life seem a lot longer, don't it?" — Matt (01:21)
“[Urinetown delivers comedy with] a joke every three seconds.” — Marc (06:20)
“Play it straight. And when you watch the bootleg of the original production, that is exactly…” — Matt (07:13)
“It's like Threepenny Opera by way of South Park.” — Matt (08:49)
“It's a musical about people having to pay to pee. And we are not that far off from that at any time here in America.” — Marc (12:29)
“He’s the hero of the show, she has to love him.” — Matt as Officer Lockstock (99:09)
“Hail Malthus. Thank you, and good night.” — Officer Lockstock (72:41, 99:11)
Memorable Moments & Timestamps
| Timestamp | Segment/Highlight | |-----------|-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------| | 02:11 | Marc's origin story with Urinetown | | 07:13 | The importance of straight-acting for the comedy to land | | 18:28 | Special praise for Spencer Kayden (Little Sally) | | 20:08 | Greg Kotis’ European inspiration for the premise | | 42:34 | Ingenue humor: “Bunnies don’t drive cars...No, as a matter of fact, I don’t think they do” — Hope (39:36–39:53) | | 43:10 | Why playing the jokes straight matters: “The character can’t know, the actor can know.” | | 53:01 | “Snuff That Girl” as angry, intentionally awkward choreography | | 72:41 | "Hail Malthus" ending explained | | 92:32 | The show's meta-theatrical legacy on Broadway | | 95:03 | Show’s closing due to theater demolition; recouping and awards season | | 100:09 | Meta-jokes: Officer Lockstock & Little Sally on love |
Notable Broadway/Life Tangents
- Millie vs. Urinetown: Sibling rivalry on Broadway (Hunter Foster in Urinetown, Sutton Foster in Millie).
- Guest’s personal anecdotes about actors, auditions, and celebrity run-ins (e.g., Jen Cody, Charles Shaughnessy, Tom Cavanaugh's infamous flop as Bobby Strong, Spencer Kayden’s desk-job-to-Tony-nominee journey).
- Quick detours to Annie, forbidden Broadway, wild party, and favorite theatre podcast moments.
Final Thoughts & Legacy
- Urinetown is hailed as the gold standard for meta-musical satire, blending social commentary with awareness of musical theater mechanics.
- The original production’s tone and ensemble work are seen as nearly impossible to top.
- Its legacy is felt in subsequent Broadway meta-musicals—none so incisive or effective.
- Both hosts gush about performers (esp. Jennifer Laura Thompson) and mourn that there’s no return to the show’s original magic.
- The episode closes making the case for the musical’s genius, dark wit, and enduring relevance.
Closing Quote
“Hail Malthus. Thank you and good night.”
— Officer Lockstock, Urinetown
Diva Send-Off
As tradition, the episode closes with tribute to Jennifer Laura Thompson (the original Hope Cladwell).
Listen to Marc Tumminelli on "Little Me: Growing Up Broadway."
Follow Matt Koplik on Instagram: @mattkoplik.
For rights to Urinetown, good luck!