WEST SIDE STORY (2021 Movie) w/ Margaret Hall

Summary

Broadway Breakdown: WEST SIDE STORY (2021 Movie) w/ Margaret Hall

Date: October 24, 2024
Host: Matt Koplik
Guest: Margaret Hall (Playbill)
Theme: An in-depth, passionate, and opinionated breakdown of Steven Spielberg and Tony Kushner’s 2021 film adaptation of West Side Story—its history, legacy, fresh interpretations, the performances, and its place in both Broadway and movie musical history.

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Episode Overview

Matt welcomes back friend of the pod Margaret Hall, a theatre expert and Playbill contributor, for a deep dive into Spielberg’s West Side Story (2021). The conversation covers the film’s challenging legacy, its connection to previous West Side Story versions, Kushner’s screenplay, controversies, Oscar outcomes, choreography, performances, and the film’s contributions (as well as its missed opportunities) in the ongoing evolution of stage-to-screen musicals. This is a true “theatre geek” discussion, blending personal history with sharp-eyed critique and plenty of laughs and memorable quips.

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Key Topics & Insights

1. Personal Histories with West Side Story

(05:02 – 14:56)

• Margaret’s Early Memories:

  • Grew up constantly aware of West Side Story: “I do not remember a point in my life in which I did not know West Side Story existed.” (05:25)
  • Fell in love seeing a high school production in rural Ohio: “I cried. I had known that I loved musical theater before then, but I hadn’t seen someone in front of me that wasn’t a professional move me in the way that that high school production moved me.” (08:31)

• Connection to Sondheim, Bernstein, Gimanani:

  • Margaret wrote a book with Paul Gemignani (longtime Sondheim conductor) and discussed how deeply the show’s music resonated with her and the Sondheim circle, noting this film as “the first major Sondheim project going out that did not have a Gemignani name at the helm.” (09:37)

• Matt’s Family Theatre Legacy:

  • “I come from a theatre loving family. …My grandfather was an entertainment lawyer… his wife worked at Lincoln Center… his second wife was a casting director…” (15:04)
  • Shared memories of seeing the all-white JCC production and participating in West Side Story youth theater—“we were all just like little Jewish kids who just wanted to do any role that was given to us…” (17:19)

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2. Approaching the 2021 Remake: Skepticism and Excitement

(03:56 – 13:39, 24:38 – 27:11)

• Spielberg’s multiyear development process created “the weirdest little, like, tease in the industry for the better part of a decade… people wouldn’t get excited about because they’re like, it’s never gonna happen.” (04:05)

• Legacy of the original: “The 1961 movie is considered one of the greatest movie musicals of all time. It was super impactful, incredibly influential… The movie is what made it an institution.” (12:23)

• Why remake perfection?

  • Spielberg’s first musical; intimidating legacy.
  • Matt points out that Spielberg’s energy pays off but that the why now? is always a question: “Why would you do that?” (12:19)

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3. Key Creative Decisions: Kushner’s Script, Representation, and Updating the Story

(13:39 – 14:33, 26:57 – 38:09, 39:03 – 43:05, 56:10 – 59:00, 116:49 – 117:33)

Libretto & Adaptation

• Lawrence’s original libretto discussed as “economic storytelling”—a script built to support the music and dance.
• Kushner’s screenplay praised for depth but critiqued by Matt as sometimes too “over-articulate” and leaving “a little too much air.” (13:39 – 14:11, 58:53 – 59:00)
• Dramaturgy: Kushner adds real-world context (post-war NYC, Lincoln Center demolition), explores race and class more deeply, and makes characters more realistic and complex.

Representation & Spanish Dialogue

• “I have so much affection for the art of making art. And this film, I feel—you can feel it in every single cel.” – Margaret (11:24)
• Use of Spanish without subtitles: “I have so much respect for the choice that they made to not caption this film at all in any of the Spanish…” (37:33)
• Improved representation for Puerto Rican and Latinx actors and culture, compared to the infamous whitewashing of previous versions.

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4. Performances: The Standouts & Oscar Conversation

(43:38 – 54:22, 62:07 – 71:38, 92:59 – 98:38, 172:45 – 176:46)

• Star-Making Turns:

  • “Mike Feist, through talent and chutzpah alone… turned [Riff into] the role.” (46:00)
  • Rachel Zegler as Maria: “I walked out going, ‘Oh, the two performances of this movie are Mike Feist and Rachel Zegler. Like, they own this movie.’” (47:53)

• Ariana DeBose as Anita:

  • Acclaimed as “lovely,” did the part, but Matt personally finds the performance not the heart of the movie.
  • Her best-in-show Oscar sweep discussed as perhaps a historical oddity: “…not saying Ariana’s bad, but these pundits are looking back, going, she was that undeniable?” (102:43)

• Ansel Elgort as Tony:

  • “I think Ansel is giving a half successful performance and a half not successful. Part of it is the part. Part of it is him, part of it is Spielberg.” (51:14)
  • “His eyes are constantly empty. …I like my men to look smart.” —Margaret (62:14)

Oscar Outcomes & Legacy

• How the film’s success appeared impacted by COVID and Elgort allegations more than by its quality.
• Ultimately, the movie’s “legacy” seems to be as a launchpad for Feist and Zegler, not for DeBose, despite her Oscar.
• “Feist has probably cashed in a bit better than Zegler. …They are young, lives are long, and everything is in flux.” (47:01)

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5. Choreography: Robbins vs Peck and the Role of Dance

(73:32 – 79:05, 119:26 – 123:02, 148:01 – 151:17)

• Justin Peck’s choreography: energetic, contemporary, fitting the film’s realism, but missing the storytelling clarity and structure of Jerome Robbins’ original.
  • “What Peck does really well is Peck does energy via dance really well…” (74:00)
• “Mambo needs more for me. Needed more personality and a difference from both sides. …America just plateaus from the start and stays there.” (75:06)
• Appreciation for the restaging of “Cool” as a knife-chase between Tony and Riff, though debate over whether dance is successful at all moments.

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6. Story, Character Changes, & Thematic Knots

(34:14 – 36:40, 41:41 – 44:28, 56:33 – 57:16, 135:03 – 138:29)

• Tony & Maria’s Relationship:
  “This movie made it more understandable to me, the attraction [between Tony and Maria]. …It’s a chemical thing.” (58:30)

  • Some feel Maria too strong for Tony’s “himbo” energy; others praise giving Maria and Anita more agency.

• Riff & Graziella:

  • “Graziella is the Little Rock Nine photo crossed with a Handmaid’s Tale wife.” (91:08)
  • Matt and Margaret closely read Riff and Tony’s relationship—a “breakup” scene that’s emotionally layered.

• Violence and Reality:

  • Spielberg amped up the real stakes—graphic violence (Baby John’s impaled ear), racism, sexual assault—making the story hit harder for 2021.
  • “Spielberg and Kushner are not shying away from the brutalism of this piece.” (82:28)

• Major Additions/Critiques:

  • Maria sharper, more fleshed out.

  • Tony’s parole, criminal past, and post-prison frustration with Riff deepen his character.

  • The use of Valentina (Rita Moreno) as “Doc”—gives a survivor’s perspective and lets Moreno sing “Somewhere."

    • “Giving her somewhere, like, it’s more—the fact that I love the idea of that character singing it and Marita Moreno sells it. Where it happens, where it happens in the movie is not necessarily my fault.” (114:12)

  • Critique: “The biggest issue I have with this movie is that there’s a little too much air. …There are a couple of things where (the script) fumbles because of that.” (58:53)

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7. Musical Numbers: Highs & Lows

(152:01 – 155:27, 165:01 – 167:07)

• Best:

  • “Best numbers are the prologue, ‘One Hand, One Heart,’ and ‘Tonight.’” (119:26, 172:50)
  • “The orchestra in this movie sounds incredible.” (151:23)

• Weakest:

  • “For me, it’s ‘Something’s Coming’ because I just—I don’t buy Ansel in this film… That song’s supposed to make you fall in love with Tony and it did not.” (165:03)

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

| Time | Speaker | Quote | |----------|-----------|---------------------------------------------------| | 04:05 | Margaret | “And it was the weirdest little, like, tease in the industry for the better part of a decade. …It was a project that people wouldn’t get excited about because they’re like, it’s never gonna happen.” | | 11:24 | Margaret | “I feel—really, you can feel it in every single cel.” | | 13:39 | Matt | “Movie musicals are hard. They're so hard to do, especially modern day ones.” | | 46:00 | Margaret | “Mike Feist, through talent and chutzpah alone… turned [Riff into] the role.” | | 47:53 | Matt | “The two performances of this movie are Mike Feist and Rachel Zegler. Like, they own this movie.” | | 53:44 | Matt | “If you make her [Maria] so much stronger, then some of the purpleness of the romance now feels less passionate to me.” | | 62:14 | Margaret | “Ansel Elgort never made sense to me because for me, everything is always about the eyes. And his eyes are constantly empty.” | | 82:07 | Margaret | “From the get go… Spielberg and Kushner are not shying away from the brutalism of this piece.” | | 102:43 | Matt | “It’s more that it’s rare when someone just sweeps that way… and there are very few times we look back and go, totally.” | | 116:49 | Matt | “My biggest issue with the screenplay… is that there is a time—Kushner is just so smart… There are times in the screenplay where he thinks to himself, a lot of people have questions about this… [and] don’t give Maria the line when she finds… Just do something off of impulse.” | | 146:30 | Matt | “I just, I… don’t have a lot of major overhauls I want to make with this movie. So much as I want to go in with him and be like, can we go through the entire thing and cut five seconds out of every scene and five seconds out of every transition? Just shave off five minutes.” | | 172:50 | Matt | “You think the number ones are ‘One Hand, One Heart’, ‘Prologue.’ Weakest are ‘Maria’ and ‘Something’s Coming.’” | | 177:13 | Margaret | “I am glad that it exists in concert to the original film. …You cannot just love musical theater to make a movie, and you cannot just love movies to make a musical.” |

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Timestamps for Key Segments

• Introductions & Background: 00:39–05:25
• Personal Histories with West Side Story: 05:25–14:56
• Spielberg’s Remake: Development & Reception: 03:56–14:33, 24:38–27:11
• The Kushner Screenplay & Representation: 26:57–38:09, 39:03–43:05
• Choreography: Robbins vs Peck: 73:32–79:05
• Performances: Standouts & Oscar Talk: 43:38–54:22, 62:07–71:38, 92:59–98:38
• Violence and Realism in the Film: 79:35–85:22
• Musical Numbers: Best & Weakest: 119:26–123:02, 152:01–167:07
• Screenplay Critiques & Third Act Issues: 116:49–123:18
• Legacy, Impact, and Final Thoughts: 177:13–end

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Conclusion

Matt and Margaret’s detailed discussion celebrates the ambition, artistry, and travails of Spielberg’s West Side Story while candidly acknowledging its shortcomings—especially regarding pacing and certain performances. The episode underscores the importance of understanding both cinema and musical theatre to make a movie musical soar, and hopes that Wicked and future adaptations will continue to evolve the genre.

Closing Quote:

“You cannot just love musical theater to make a movie, and you cannot just love movies to make a musical. You have to understand how both art forms work… in order to truly put them in conversation and make it meld.” — Margaret Hall (177:13)

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Want More?

• Find Margaret: @itsMargaretHall (all social), margaret-hall.com
• Support Neurodivergent Artists: Autistic Theatre Makers
• Listen to More Broadway Breakdown and join for episode questions, behind the scenes, and the Discord community.

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Transcript

[A]

Sam.

[B]

Hello, all you theater lovers both out and proud and on the DL. And welcome back to Broadway Breakdown, a podcast discussing the history legacy of American theater's most exclusive address, Broadway. This series is called Grab Bag, and it is covering shows and movies that you submitted and I picked out of a bowl. I am your host, Matt Koplik, the least famous and most opinionated of all the Broadway podcast hosts. And with me today is Friend of the Pod. She hasn't been on in a while, but we're lucky to have her back. You know her work on Playbill. Please welcome Margaret Hall.

[A]

Hello. Hello, everybody. So great to be Bat Mac.

[B]

Can you do three hellos?

[A]

Yeah, sure. Hello, hello, hello. Thank you for having me, Batmac.

[B]

Thank you, Valerie Cherish. I'm gonna keep all of that just because I need people to know that I coached you for something that was just for me.

[A]

Look, I am more than happy to oblige.

[B]

Yes, well, you're a friend, and we get along very nicely.

[A]

It helps when our brains work the same way.

[B]

It does. Yeah, we connect in a lot of ways that I don't connect with a lot of people, which is how I know that you're gonna be around for a while.

[A]

We're gonna be in the old folks home.

[B]

Well, you're significantly younger than I am.

[A]

Eh, you say that, but I like to think I was born at about 35 and we're just going from that baseline.

[B]

Sure, sure.

[A]

I feel that I'm definitely hitting my, like, mid to late 50s body problems, so it works.

[B]

See, I feel like I was born at 50, and then at 22, my whole enterprise went. No, no, no, no. 17 forever. Oh, no, Ingenue. We are ingenues. Speaking of being old and ingenue, what are we talking about today?

[A]

We are talking about the 2021 remake.

[B]

Remix. Remix.

[A]

We are talking about the 2021 remake of west side Story, directed by Steven.

[B]

Spielberg and adapted by Tony Kushner.

[A]

Lovely.

[B]

Yeah. You know, people who did things once.

[A]

Upon a time, just names that. They're footnotes in my history research.

[B]

Jeanine Tesori was, like, the vocal director. Whatever.

[A]

Gustavo Dudamel directing in terms of the orchestra. Just a tiny name.

[B]

Yeah, small names all abound.

[A]

It's really an indie film.

[B]

Really? Yeah. No one. It was not given any kind of promotion. It was done. It was shown in art houses. No one talked about it, but yeah. So this was one of those things where I told the listeners when they submitted they had to submit at least one play. They were given up to five Choices they had to make at least one a play.

[A]

Thank you for standing up for the.

[B]

American theater as well, as, well, I should. If not me, then who? I also said they could do one movie musical and they could do one repeat. And this is sort of one and a half, because we did cover west side Story and very first miniseries of this podcast when we did Sondheim, but this remake hadn't come out yet. We'd only heard about it. I don't even think they had dropped any teasers or trailers for it when that episode came out.

[A]

I don't think so, no.

[B]

Yeah. Because the Sondheim stuff started, I want to say, like, March of 2021, maybe.

[A]

It definitely predated Steve's passing.

[B]

It did. It did. And I think it was either somewhere like, February or March, something like that. And then went till, I want to say, April role. And I feel like the west side Story trailer didn't drop till the Tonys of that year.

[A]

That feels right.

[B]

Yeah. Yeah. And it was very. Everyone was both very skeptical and very excited about it because of the history of the original.

[A]

And it was the weirdest little, like, tease in the industry for the better part of a decade. He started working on this and teasing it in 2014. And so for the longest time, it was a project that people wouldn't get excited about because they're like, it's never gonna happen. And if I put my energy into it, I'm gonna be.

[B]

Yeah. I mean, listen, we're still waiting for Petal to the Metal for that Glenn Sunset, I believe. Okay. I'm glad someone besides Glenn does.

[A]

I believe in Glenn Close. She needs to rescue her film career from whatever the hell's been happening.

[B]

And you think Sunset Boulevard's the thing to rescue it?

[A]

I think it would make her happy.

[B]

It would make her happy. That is absolutely fair and totally accurate. Would it be good? I don't know. Rob Ashford's directing it and why. But listen, listen. So west side Story, we're going into.

[A]

A Dreamgirls episode for a second.

[B]

Oh, God. That is a song from the movie. And now the show, weirdly, west side Story.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

As die hard fans of this podcast will know, you are a theater girly. You've been in the weeds with this for a very long time. So obviously, you have a long history with west side Story, as anyone who's been a theater kid does. Tell me first your history with west side Story and then your journey with this movie, and then I'll tell you mine, and then we'll just dive into this baby.

[A]

Oh, delicious. So I do not remember a point in my life in which I did not know west side Story existed. I think that's true for a lot of young theater fans. My father was, and to this day is very devoted to the work of Ella Fitzgerald and to the poetry of Oscar Hammerstein ii. And so I was very much raised on Oscar. And if you're raised on Oscar, you also end up being raised on Leonard Bernstein. It's kind of just a thing that goes along with parents.

[B]

For sure. For sure.

[A]

And so I must have been. Cause like, when I say raised on it, we know exactly the first musical I ever saw. Because I was five days old, my father took my tiny little preemie body and propped me up in front of a television set to watch the wizard of Oz on VHS because he wanted to make sure he knew exactly what it was.

[B]

That's actually. I like a man who wants receipts.

[A]

He wanted receipts. He wanted proof. He had it locked in. There's like a photo of this that's got like the little orange timestamp in the corner. Someday I will blow it up and hang it on my wall of just me being zoned out as a preemie.

[B]

There's a photo of my sister where I am in the background. I must be like one and a half. The photo is of her and I am just in the background. And it's me standing up at the tv, touching the screen as Little Mermaid is playing. I'm like, if that's not me in a goddamn nutshell, I don't.

[A]

My favorite. And I cite this whole movie, like, regularly. If someone's ever going to, for some godforsaken reason, make a biopic of me. This has to be a scene. I'm three and a half. I am in my little dress up bridal gown. Beauty and the Beast is playing in the background. And I am making my father do the waltz with me to the title song. And he starts just dancing with his daughter and having a nice moment. And I step on his foot as hard as I can in my little princess shoes because that's not the choreography I like. I memorized the wizard of Oz. That was like my foundational as a kid. It was Judy Garland, the Wizard of Oz. We did not. We weren't like rich people who had a TV in our car. And I would just sit in the back and when I get antsy on road trips, my mom would be like, watch wizard of Oz. And I'd close my eyes and I'd do the whole thing for myself. I was that kid.

[B]

That is also how I know you're so much younger than me because when you're like, we weren't rich and had a TV in our car, I was thinking about my childhood. I was like, that wasn't a thing in our childhoods, Margaret. And then I was like, oh, no. By the time you were a kid, that was totally a thing.

[A]

It was totally a thing. We're nowhere near that tax bracket, but so I was always aware of west side Story, but it wasn't one that I really attached myself to emotionally until I was like, fourth or fifth grade. And I grew up in rural Ohio, bit north of Columbus. And the high school that I went to was doing west side Story. As far as I remember, it was an entirely all white production of west side Story.

[B]

They tended to be for a very long time. And my spoiler alert for my journey.

[A]

And my aunt took me to see the high school production. And when I tell you I fell in love with the woman playing Maria. It was a moment. My aunt was one of her teachers and, like, brought me backst to say hi to her. I cried. I was so just. I had known that I loved musical theater before then, but I hadn't seen someone in front of me that wasn't a professional move me in the way that that high school production moved me. And then for the second half of your question, my relationship with the 2021 film, I was very aware of the fact that this film was happening because while they were in that sort of pandemic limbo where they had started shooting it and, like, it was like, almost in post production, but then things were shut down. It was a mess.

[B]

They had officially finished all principal photography pre Covid, but it was in the middle of post when Covid happened.

[A]

Like, all sort of like, any reshoots that need to happen, all of that.

[B]

Yeah, like, they. I don't think they even got to do any of that.

[A]

I don't if they did, they barely started.

[B]

Yeah, yeah.

[A]

But that whole pause when the film was kind of up in the air was when I started writing a book called Life and Lessons from Broadway and Beyond. It is a memoir of Paul Gimignani's life. Paul, of course, being the longtime music director for Stephen Sondheim and someone who almost did this film. They ended up going with Gustavo because of a number of things. Paul does not really leave South Carolina anymore. But we had talked a lot about this film and how it was the first major Sondheim project going out that did not have a Jimigni name at the. The helm in a very long time. Because the west side story revival in 2019, early 2020, was actually conducted by Paul's son, Alex Cumignani. And so this didn't necessarily make it as much in the book because it just didn't necessarily make sense. But Paul and I talk to this day almost every day, and we spoke a lot about west side Story and how important it was to him, the way in which the west side Story suite had infiltrated Jerome Robbins Broadway, which is a show that Paul put together, and how emotionally moved he always was by that music. Leonard Bernstein was one of Paul's mentors. And so I went to the opening screening in the Midwest for West Side Story 2021, and I sobbed. And then I went back a week later with my mother, and I sobbed again. And then I went a third time, and I made my brother come. And when I started crying, he smacked me on the head because he's like, you've now seen this three times in two weeks. You need to calm down. Yeah, but I. To me, almost all of this film, I can feel the love with which it was made, even the parts that are not perfect. I can feel how much respect and care Spielberg has for this material.

[B]

Oh, yeah.

[A]

And that always moves me. I have so much affection for the art of making art. And this film, I feel. Really, you can feel it in every single cel.

[B]

Yeah, I. I think that's absolutely accurate. And I think that also does connect to some of the notes I have about this movie. And when we get to this, I want to emphasize this is Spielberg's first movie musical, which is insane. It is insane. He's always wanted to make one. And I feel like he was just sort of waiting for the moment he had enough clout and could get the timing in place to make this movie.

[A]

He was definitely flirting with it. I mean, the opening of Indiana Jones.

[B]

When they had the whole number, I think he always had one in. He always had one that he was thinking about, but this was sort of the one he kind of kept coming back to. I haven't. I read a few interviews with him about it. And ultimately, it's like the original movie meant a lot to him. He loves the musical. And I think probably one of the reasons why he never thought about remaking it was the question of when it was announced, of, like, why would you do that?

[A]

Because it's considered to be an almost perfect. The original Robert Weiss film.

[B]

The original 1961 movie is considered one of the Greatest movie musicals of all time. One of the greatest movies of all time. It was super impactful to incredibly influential. Yeah. It was, if not the highest grossing movie of its year. Like number two. And first of all, swept the Oscars. We're talking like 10 Oscars, something like that. Like major and fully turned around the reputation of the stage show, which was respected but not a hit. It was sort of like a soft hit in the 50s. It had a major cult following. The movie is what made it an institution.

[A]

It definitely is what established it in.

[B]

The General Public's eye 1000%. So that alone. And movie musicals are hard.

[A]

So hard.

[B]

They're so hard to do, especially modern day ones. And all of the notes I have are things that are like, if you do this again, Steve, I want you to hear this episode because what you've done so much amazing stuff in this movie. There are other things that are totally fixable and you will just know for the second time around.

[A]

Yeah. And it's the kind of thing that, like, I don't blame him for that. And also for your first to be west side Story, it's like taking a culinary class and the very first thing that you're cooking is a souffle.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Like you're not starting with an easy to adapt product.

[B]

There's. There's a. There's also a difference between understanding how musicals work on stage and on film. Which.

[A]

Oh, boy.

[B]

Will we talk about when we talk about Arthur Lawrence? Because that was the first question on the Discord Channel was what will the ghost of Arthur Lawrence say about this movie?

[A]

I don't give a.

[B]

Well, first of all, the short answer is would have hated it because if he didn't work on it, he hated it. Anything that he wasn't a part of, he hated. Any gypsy that he didn't work on, he hated. He's. He was just a nasty person who did three good things in his life, artistically speaking, and was.

[A]

Three is kind of pushing it.

[B]

Wes. I would say the libretto for west side is not a masterpiece, but it is a prime example of economic storytelling.

[A]

It is economic.

[B]

Yeah. I think it is a very. It is also a book that is. Exists to support everything else. And in that respect, I think it is a very successful libretto. If not necessarily as.

[A]

Here's the thing. I will give Arthur Lawrence. Here's what I will give Arthur Lawrence in terms of this particular libretto. I think the decision to make it west side Story and not east side Story was a very good call.

[B]

That was a good call. I will I'm also going to combine his screenplays for the Turning Point, the Way We Were, and Rope as one contribution.

[A]

You love the Way We Were, don't you?

[B]

I don't love the Way We Were. I love a third of the Way We Were. I love a third of Turning Point and I love a third of Rope combined. It is one good contribution.

[A]

Okay, Ochre. Okay. The only unshakable I will give him is juice.

[B]

How dare you come for me. You love the Way We Were, you gay Jew. I'm not putting words in your mouth. I'm putting words in mine.

[A]

But also, I have no fucking room to talk. My favorite film is Almost Famous.

[B]

Well, Almost Famous is great.

[A]

Almost Famous is great, but people give me shit.

[B]

Well, Almost Famous, I think has a similar problem to this west side Story, which is spoiler alert. My biggest complaint about this movie is that there's a little too much air in it. I think it's. And we will get more into that. What I mean by that. But there's just a little too much air discussing what will happen. So my journey, my journey back to the question. Yes, exactly. So I, like you, come from a theater loving family. I can't recall the day that this show came into my. To my consciousness. Also, my family, as I've mentioned before on the podcast, like, everyone is involved in theater in some way except for, like, current generation. Like my parents, or entertainment, I should say. Like, my parents met in the movie business. On the business side, my grandfather was an entertainment lawyer. He represented the Nederlanders and a bunch of writers. He was Jerry Bock's executor of his estate because they were best friends. His wife, my grandmother, worked at Lincoln center and then she worked at City Center. His second wife was a casting director. She did the original Joseph the Amazing, Technicolor Dreamcoat, Brighton Beach Memoirs, blah, blah, blah. My father's side, my grandfather was a dentist, but he had many, many entertainment clients. Herb Gardner, playwright of I'm Not Rappaport and Thousand Clowns for a time. Liza Minnelli and Peter Allen when they were married. Charles Nelson Riley was a long client, then became a close friend. Robert Morris, longtime client, close friend, and especially Chita Rivera. Yeah, the thing with my dad's side of the family is Cheetah and Bobby never made a mistake in terms of performances. They were sometimes in bad shows, but they were always amazing. So, like, they all saw the Big Boss or they're like, cheetah was great. That show blew. My dad got to see Sugar in college. During his out of town tryout. And he was like, bobby Moore should have won the Tony. Ben Vereen, who. Things like that. So with the Cheetah of it all was always just around. And that album was meant a lot to me. I know I saw the movie. I can't recall the day I did, but I know that I watched it. And then I did west side Story after also seeing it at the local JCC in Tenafly, New Jersey, where you better believe it was all white kids.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And then I did a stage for a manor where it was mostly white kids. We had three kids of color, of course, all sharks. And I was a shark. And they put me in some bronzer and they penciled my eyebrows. Tony. Two time Tony winner Shanna Tao was Anita.

[A]

Oh, my God.

[B]

I think she was 15, maybe 16. She was great. But, you know, we were all just like little Jewish kids who just wanted to do any role that was given to us. And 2004 was that kind of time where we didn't think about that so much as just like, can we just, like, do west side Story? Can we do the last five years? Like, when it comes to inappropriateness, west side Story wasn't even, like, the top tier of inappropriate shows that we did about year camp.

[A]

Children, when you're going to Stage Door, you don't feel like children. When you're the age that you're doing something that's staged door or interlock in, but you're a child, it should be up to the adults to make that call.

[B]

Sure. But also, that was sort of the magic of the time of, like, this is a safe space to just do things you're not ready for, you're not prepared for. And you can always have that story later. Like, the movie Camp is incredibly accurate in that respect of, like, when Anna Kendrick says, we did Night Mother together, I'm like, yeah, no, I guarantee you there were 20 girls at stage Door who were like, why am I not doing Night Mother? Why am I not doing Hedda Gobbler?

[A]

Yeah, no, that's what. So you were a stage Door kid. Like, I was in Interlock and Arts Camp, which is basically the equivalent, but in Michigan and slightly more psychotic. Because you're in the woods.

[B]

Yes. Yeah. And we were in Catskills without the Dirty Dancing.

[A]

Hey. But so I was notorious because my voice dropped very quickly the second I hit puberty. They were like, you are predestined alto belter.

[B]

There you go.

[A]

And my audition songs, the very first year I went there were happy to Keep his dinner warm from how to Succeed in Business Without Really Trying Phenomenon. Which again, I'm 13 and as long as he Needs me, from Oliver.

[B]

You really had a thing for being subservient to men.

[A]

I did. And then you want to know my coverage song? That was the one that the director pulled me sign. He's like, I'm casting you, but for the love of God, you need to take these out of your book.

[B]

I love a cop. I love a cop. From Fiorello.

[A]

That would be a great pull. I wish I had known Fiorello at 13.

[B]

I'm just thinking like the trio. Magnificent trio.

[A]

No, there are worse things I could do from Greece.

[B]

Amazing.

[A]

And he was like, I just. I really need you to grasp why we don't want you to be pregnant right now. Yeah, but it sounds so nice.

[B]

And we let nine year old girls sing it too.

[A]

The worst I've ever seen of that is I saw a group of like junior contemporary competitive dancers. So like 7 to 11, maybe do a number to Doctor's Orders from Catch Me if youf Can. And I couldn't breathe. It was so like, how did you choreograph this entire number? And no one listened to a lyric?

[B]

God bless the theater. Nerd. You know, the lack of self awareness gives you a confidence that you don't deserve, but you make. You learn a lot about life and yourself.

[A]

You learn a lot about who you are.

[B]

Exactly, exactly. So I was a Shark Louise. I had three lines. That was the show where I learned that I liked to dance. Of course, I didn't fully study dance after that. I would take class, but I didn't really concentrate on it. And that is one of my biggest regrets. Because every director I had at Stage Door after that was always like, why are you not going to BDC three days a week?

[A]

Because I do this for fun.

[B]

Yeah, Well, I was like. I think of myself more like as a singing actor. They're like, no, you can dance like go, go fucking train. And then I didn't really do it. So I regret that, but I have many regrets. But that was always just sort of my thing with west side Story. After doing it at Stage Door, I like always had it in my heart like, this is an amazing show. I loved doing it. We all had a great time and it was a very powerful experience for all of us. And then over the years, I remember when the revival happened in 09 and we all just kind of went, Kay. It was very.

[A]

It's so sad to me.

[B]

Yeah, we were all very Excited for it. And we all kind of willed ourselves for a minute into thinking it was phenomenal. If you read the reviews of it at the time, it's all these critics talking themselves into giving it a good review. And we look back on it now, we're like, no, we should have been a little more honest. Like, this was kind of dull. It was way too slow. Because Arthur Lawrence learned all the wrong lessons from Patti LuPone, Gypsy.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

And a lot of issues. But also, my hot take about Arthur Lawrence is in the last 10 years of his life.

[A]

He.

[B]

I'm not even going to say subconsciously, but he sneakily made it his mission to undermine the contributions of his collaborators.

[A]

Wouldn't shock me.

[B]

No. The Somewhere Ballet was cut, and he tried to cut and he cut the Small World reprise. All these things were like. I remember Patti lipone talks about it in her memoir of like, we're in rehearsals. And I'm like, arthur, why is this here? This makes no sense to me as an actor. And Arthur's response is like, well, we can always cut it. Like, I don't care. And I'm like, of course he said that because it's something he didn't write. But, like, it worked for four other actresses. I'm just. I'm just saying, like, in Arthur Lawrence's.

[A]

Fantasy, I think Gypsy and West side Story were one act plays.

[B]

I think in his fantasy, he wrote them and then other people made them worse with their music and their dance.

[A]

I think that's his reality, what he thought he lived in.

[B]

Yeah, yeah. And it's a lot of people telling him, no, no, no, Arthur, we don't have the pig faces. You have the pig face. This is not the Twilight Zone. You're just an asshole. That's a great quote. I'm gonna put that on a T shirt. This is not the Twilight Zone. You're just an.

[A]

You can sell a lot of those in this industry.

[B]

I think I can. I. On the Discord channel, we also have a subgroup of anything I say on this podcast that people are like, oh, that's a good quote. I'm like, guys, make a note of it. Because I forget everything I say after I finish recording. Someone make a note, make a note, make a note. And then we'll put it on a T shirt. One that I will remember now because I think two different people posted on the Discord was in the Miss Saigon episode where I say, the only person who can kill Kim is Kim. That bitch survives. The only one who can do her ending is her. She Margaret. Margaret. She goes through so much and still survives. She hides a pregnancy and a baby and a wedding gown during communist. During a communist takeover of her country. She is able to suse successfully hide from the government. And we know this because her ex boyfriend is in the government and has been trying to find her.

[A]

True.

[B]

She then is able to keep said wedding dress on a goddamn boat to Bangkok and it is in pristine condition four years later.

[A]

I just really. You need to call me when you make the Martin Gare episode because we need to talk about the way in which the plotting of their musicals works.

[B]

Plotting? Don't know her.

[A]

What is plotting?

[B]

I can't wait for you to listen to the Jekyll and Hyde episode where we're just like props to Yamama for having two women with names in this story. In an original novella where there were none, but, like, must both of their arcs be. I have no personality other than just wanting that D. But so Lucy being the sex worker with a heart of gold who dies because she must.

[A]

And it's always a Lucy.

[B]

It's always a Lucy. It's always a Lucy. So this remake is announced sort of semi or like Spielberg wants to make it and everyone's doing the whole shore Jan. But then when they. When they say no, it's greenlit now. I remember everyone going, oh, this is gonna be like three years till this is like finally in the can. And the fact with the moment they were like, no, we're doing it. It was like they cast it, they filmed. It was.

[A]

Yeah. Once they opened the PR can, it was huge. If I remember correctly, it was four years of pre production.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Because Spielberg really, like, sat down and was like, I have to. To like, relearn my craft almost for this new genre. He took, I think, four years. So that's 2014 to 2018. Which feels right as well.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And then 2018 to 2019, it's just. I feel like every time we turned around, there was a casting announcement or a crew announcement or, hey, everyone who's living in Harlem, surprise. They're going to be shooting on your street. Get ready. You can't get into your apartment.

[B]

Exactly. And they were filming at the same time as the in the Heights movie, so. And I was living in that area. It was. There's a. There was a specific building half a block away from my. My building. And the top floor was always vacant. And I have a feeling the landlords kept it vacant because it had a perfect view of the bridge.

[A]

Oh, boy.

[B]

And they're like movies And TV shows will want this always.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And true to form, like both in the Heights and West side Story shot in that apartment. In that empty ass apartment.

[A]

What was shot in that apartment for west side Story?

[B]

I couldn't tell you. I just know that they were there because anytime I came home late, work like it was, it was two months on and off. There were days when it was in the Heights and days when it was west side Story. I couldn't tell you what they were shooting because, again, it was. We just saw the lights in the trucks.

[A]

And there's honestly, something kind of poetic about those two films being made at the same time.

[B]

Sure. Because in a lot of ways, in the Heights was Lin's response to west side Story. Not a response so much as he actually was more response to Kate. Man. But also just the idea of we've only got, really one successful musical with Latin characters in it. He's like, let's have another.

[A]

For sure. And Lin is also directly cited. West side Story is one the of sort of the inciting shows behind him doing this.

[B]

And he wrote the Spanish lyrics for the boring revival.

[A]

But I would say that his contributions are some of the most interesting things from that revival.

[B]

Sure, sure. He did a very good job with his lyrics. I have issues with that revival for so many reasons.

[A]

No, we could make a litany of reasons. I just think his. I don't know if we could have gotten to Tony Kushner's screenplay, which I think is the best part of this film other than Mike Feist without Lynn having done that in 2009.

[B]

You can talk about that more. I don't know. Only because I haven't thought about it much, and thus I'm not gonna make any declarative statements.

[A]

That's fair. I just think a lot about estates and how you have to baby step changes to the estates.

[B]

Oh, for sure, for sure.

[A]

Lynn opened the door for a very different kind of representation of the Sharks.

[B]

Yeah, I think that's totally fair. The. What they learned was you actually can't have the Spanish lyrics during the quintet.

[A]

Because that's already impossible to make sense of who's singing what.

[B]

And also, it just becomes jarring because you have two gangs singing, technically speaking, the same lyrics in different languages, and it just sounds like gobbledygook. It's that. Okay, it's that thing. And if you listen to the bootleg recording of the first workshop of Carrie.

[A]

Oh, my God.

[B]

Stay with me. Stay with me oh, you know I.

[A]

Am right here with you Stay with.

[B]

Me they're doing Do Me a Favor, which sounds awesome. It's Liz Calloway's Chris. She sounds awesome. Also, the only time the Liz Calloway plays the popular mean girl ever.

[A]

Go off, Liz.

[B]

Pop, pop off, sis. But they're doing. They're getting to the second half where things are starting to overlap. And she. And what's her face from Fame, who's playing Sue Snell. And they're. They're doing the counterpoint, but Sue Snell singing Tommy and Liz Calloway singing Baby. So it's Tommy baby top. But at the same time. And it's just like, ow. It's. It's like fun. It's a fun clashy way, but it's also like, okay, they need to be singing the same words.

[A]

Counterpoint, I think, is incredibly difficult, and I think people pay lip service to how difficult it is. But I think there's a lot of theater fans who don't actually realize how hard it is to do it.

[B]

Good. Oh, yeah.

[A]

Because it's not just putting a bunch of things on top of each other.

[B]

Well, it's why mashups are an art form and also why I've cited it before. I'll cite it again. It's why I started to cry when I saw Book of Mormon in Standing Room the month after they won the Tony. And the finale was happening because I thought the story I tell everyone is we were watching. I was enjoying it immensely and man up was happening. And I was like, okay, this is a perfectly decent Act 1 finale. Josh Gad's doing his thing. Fine. And then he gets to the end of his verse and Nicky M. James came out and started singing Salt Lake City. And I started to cry because I realized what they were doing and I was so happy.

[A]

The moment that made me weep like that was Come from away. The prayer sequence, when they have the, like interwoven. The Christian prayer, the Jewish prayer, the Islamic prayer, and the way in which it all describes folded together beautifully. I adore that compositional piece.

[B]

That episode is coming. I've just confirmed my guest for it.

[A]

Yay.

[B]

She may or may not have been a princess at some point, and she may or may not be a friend of me, if not necessarily the pod, but so I just love. I love it when shit makes sense and fits because especially when you don't realize it. Like, I'm somebody who loves to be the last one in on the joke. Especially with music. Because I go, oh, oh. And it's like, I get very pumped. It's why I'm never the person when you haven't seen it. Something I loved. I go, you haven't seen it. I get pumped. I'm like, can I show you?

[A]

Oh, I'm the same way.

[B]

Yeah. So all that happened. I. I will. I will not lie. I will not tell a lie. Every single trailer and teaser they put out for west side Story did not do it for me.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

That's not the movie's fault. That's marketing's fault. Because they. There was one. I think it's the official trailer too, at the end, which something. Something about the orchestration they did in the instrumental at the end, which isn't in the movie, by the way. This was specifically for the trailer, which they do a lot.

[A]

Oh, my God.

[B]

Yeah, they do it all the time. For special reference, the first teaser for the into the woods movie, that orchestra, the instrumental they do of. Don't you know what's out there in the world? That's nowhere in the movie. And it's. It's baller.

[A]

It's legend and fun fact. They made Paul. That's the last thing Paul did on the movie was the trailer piece.

[B]

It's a good trailer piece. Just the drums going. It's very cool, you know.

[A]

You know, it's a Jimigny if the drums are just in the front of the mix.

[B]

That's what I love about him. Remind me after we record, I have questions that I want you to ask him about both Smile and Evita.

[A]

Oh, he would love it.

[B]

As well as the 99 Kiss Me Kate. But that one's more just sort of like. Can we talk about how much that production was amazing?

[A]

Oh, he weeps about it regularly.

[B]

That 99 Kiss Me Kate was incredible.

[A]

I. I saw Marin Maisie every single day.

[B]

I miss Marin Maisie when I'm asleep. So I beat you.

[A]

How dare you. How dare you.

[B]

I still remember what she did in that show. But so, but so, but so, but so I get to go to an industry screening of it.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

Yeah, I get to go. And I remember really liking it. And I. But I had thoughts and you and I kind of had the same thought about cast members out of our first impression. And I remember being very thrown what the response was from the public for a minute and then how the industry sort of awarded the movie in terms of cast. And I feel like now we're kind of more appreciative of. Of certain performances.

[A]

I think people are waking up.

[B]

Yay. I saw it two more times as well. I saw it opening weekend in Imax with pod podmother Ali Gordon and her husband. Yeah, we. So that one is also. We were sitting down in the IMAX screening and it wasn't imax, it was just on an IMAX screen.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And as the trailers are starting, my phone is blowing up and it was announced that Diana was closing the next week.

[A]

I know. Okay. I know exactly where. That's the day I saw Diana.

[B]

That's a wonderful day.

[A]

My phone exploded as I got my playable and I was like, should we like do something about this?

[B]

I. I was devastated because the final performance was when I was seeing Lehman trilogy with my mom and grandma. So I had to settle for the second to last performance. Whatever. But so then I saw that and then I took my mom to see it one more time and that was it. Hadn't seen it ever again until recently for this episode. And what did I think on my fourth viewing? I'll let you all know after this break.

[A]

Woo. Billy, I'd beg to differ with you.

[B]

How do you.

[A]

You're the top.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

You're an arrow collar. You're the top. You're a Coolidge dollar. You're the nimble tread of the feet of Freddy.

[B]

And we're back.

[A]

So, Margaret, that's a fun pronunciation.

[B]

Yeah, it's my Moira Rose of it all.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

For the uncultured fucks in the world.

[A]

So me for.

[B]

You are an uncultured fuck interpreter. You. You can translate?

[A]

I try.

[B]

Yeah. You speak uncultured.

[A]

Oh, God.

[B]

Whereas I just speak fuck. What is the plot story of west side Story?

[A]

Romeo and Juliet, who. So west side Story is essentially a musical modern reimagining of Romeo and Juliet where the conflict is not between two warring families, but two warring communities. Yes, Specifically Maria, who is a young girl recently immigrated to the United States from Puerto Rico with her brother Bernardo. And he is the leader of the Sharks gang. And they are very much in opposition to the. In this film, positioned as catch all white gang, the Jets. A member of the jets who was once their leader has since stepped away. Is a man named Tony Anton in this film. And Tony and Maria end up falling in love. And due to the hateful aspects of nativism, poverty, classism, every ism you can think of, really. Tony ends up dead, Bernardo ends up dead, Tony's best friend Riff ends up dead, and Maria is emotionally dead. But unlike Juliet, she does not kill herself.

[B]

No, she doesn't thinks about it, doesn't do it.

[A]

She has a thought.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And she decides, I'll figure this out.

[B]

Anita also kind of emotionally dead. Or at least her American dream is dead.

[A]

Her American dream is definitely dead.

[B]

Yeah. So is Maria's a bit.

[A]

Oh, and that's what we just. I completely skipped over Anita in that description. Anita is Bernardo's girlfriend, mother, big sister figure for Maria, who really was like, at the forefront of. We should try and assimilate in American culture. And by the end of the story, that is dead.

[B]

Yes. She is the one who is the most pro America at the start of the show.

[A]

And if anything, she's the most anti.

[B]

America by the end because America, other than getting murdered in America, she has the most shit put upon her because.

[A]

Of she is dropped in a manure pile time and again.

[B]

Yep. Which ultimately is why that role has often been considered the role of the show. She has the most dramatic arc of the show. She starts off fiery and interesting and hilarious. She gets the solo and the dance at the gym. She gets to America, she's sensual and then has a super intense act too. And of course, like, you start with someone like Chita Rivera introducing you to said role, you're immediately like, oh, who is that? And then Rita more rhino in the movie. So, like, it's always just been the. It's always secretly been the role, which.

[A]

Is so funny because it's like analogous part in Romeo and Juliet is the nurse, which most people are completely like, oh, this like bumbling old, middle aged lady who can't get a sentence out. And then you see Anita's like, how did we get from A to B?

[B]

Yeah, well, so it's actually interesting if you watch the Baz Luhrman Romeo and Juliet, you can actually see a little bit of the Anita DNA.

[A]

Oh, for sure.

[B]

In what Miriam Margulies does with it because she is bubbly and she's all like, you know, flittery. But then in the third act, when all hits the fan, you see her like, get more intense and direct. It's very natty. And Carousel where she's like, here's what you're gonna do, here's what's gonna happen.

[A]

And I'd argue you can actually even see a little bit of Anita in the Nurse in Aunt Juliet is. I feel like a lot of Romeo and Juliet adaptations since west side Story have paid attention to west side Story.

[B]

Yeah. Well, I think what I love about Anita and West side Story is that she's so unapologetically her. She is sexual without being punished for it. Or let's say she's not punished for her sexuality. She's punished more because of the way the world works towards her race.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

Because, I mean, Marie has sex by the end of it, and she doesn't get.

[A]

But she wears white when she does it.

[B]

She's always wearing white.

[A]

Anita wears a red petticoat.

[B]

But listen, listen. Marie is wearing white because she know what color works on her, all right? That has nothing to do with being a virgin. That has to do with, like. I know my color palette, thank you. I am a winter there.

[A]

Oh, my God. There is a line in the Kushner screenplay that I think about a lot when I think about the way in which I feel like Maria, like, grew an extra spine on top of the spine she already had in this adaptation. And it's when she and Anita, they're bickering back and forth in Spanish, and when you roughly translate the lines, she's essentially telling Anita, like, I look like I'm going to a christening in this dress. I would look so much better if it was in red. And Anita is basically like, you don't want to be the girl in the. In the red dress at the dance.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And I just. I. There's so much. And I have so much respect for the choice that they made to not caption this film at all in any of the Spanish, because Kushner has been very open about the fact that, like, if you are a bilingual Spanish speaker for which Spanish is your native language, unless you're going to a specific performance in an American cinema, you're having to figure out the English through context, and you wanted to give that reverse experience. I fully respect that. But I highly recommend sitting through and translating some of the lines if you can, because there's so many good character morsels in there specifically for Anita.

[B]

I think they also, I think, are very artistically intelligent about when they stop the Spanish and go into English, because it's the recurring. I won't even call it gag. The recurring theme with the Spanish is that they are always telling each other to speak English because they have to practice.

[A]

And it's specifically Anita telling Maria and.

[B]

Bernardo, like, we have to do this. We have to practice. Like, if we're gonna be here, we have to know English. And then there are times at public situations where they are told speak English.

[A]

Oh, constantly.

[B]

Yeah. And I talked about this in the King and I episode as well. Something that I've always thought was very unfair about people's criticisms of that show is how they portray the King. Oh, he's all these things. I'm like, actually Oscar Hammerstein, who was incredibly empathetic human being, especially for the era in which he lived in, to write a character like the king, who is. Who has the ability to be clever and make wisecracks in another language.

[A]

He's got to be so, so smart.

[B]

So fucking smart. And that is how I feel about the characters in west side Story. It's. I do think that with Kushner's screenplay, there are a couple of times where they do push the limit a little bit, but that's also where you just sort of have to let go of reality and embrace the medium.

[A]

And I think it helps that three of the strongest actors in the film, Ariana DeBose, Rachel Zegler, and his name just ran.

[B]

David Alvarez.

[A]

Thank you. David Alvarez. Are the three who primarily have that dialogue, even when you're like, I like. Like, I'm not a fluent Spanish speaker. I speak a little. I am not fluent. You understand what's happening in their scenes together as a trio, when they're speaking Spanish, because they're such smart actors. I think there would have been a much bigger problem if, say, Anton had started speaking Polish.

[B]

Well, so that's. So that's a line in the original libretto that I wish Kushner had chose to adapt, which is, when America happens in the stage show, obviously, it's all the women, Right. And then in the original movie and in this remake, it's the women and men, which is a very smart choice. There are certain. There's There's a certain thematic dynamo energy in the original stage show of it just being the Shark girls because they don't get a lot of chances to shine. So I do like the idea of just let the women take the stage and own it. On a dramaturgical narrative level, it makes more sense for it to be a battle between the women and the men of the Sharks.

[A]

And the way that it's specifically a battle of wills between Anita and Bernardo is so good.

[B]

Yes. And the lyrics, for the most part, that Sondheim rewrote for the original movie that are incorporated in this remake are better.

[A]

They're better.

[B]

They're better. This is all to say in the stage version, and it's in the original movie, too. They're talking about the double standard of immigration with the Sharks and the Jets. And Anita says, you know, Tony, like, all these jets, their parents came from Poland, they came from Russia and immigrated here. And she goes, the line is, tony was born in America, so that makes him an American, but us foreigners. And so Tony probably doesn't know a lot of Polish I would argue. I would. The whole point of the jets is that they consider themselves American, they consider themselves white. And also, just like tunnel vision, anything that's happening around them in their homes, they're running out on. The remake takes away pretty much any presence of legitimate. Not legitimate, but biological parents. Their presence are all gone. Whereas in the stage show, they are off stage, but they are there for everyone.

[A]

But anybody who's in this film. Yeah.

[B]

Oh, anybody who has parents in the.

[A]

Remake, there's a very brief. You don't see them in any world, but it becomes clear that anybody is. Part of the reason why they're really chasing after the jets is because they've been thrown out of their home.

[B]

Got it. So in the stage show, I'm pretty sure Riff's mom exists and Tony was or was living or is still living at Riff's place with his mom. Or Riff is staying with Tony's mom. One of their moms housed the other one.

[A]

Makes sense. I don't remember.

[B]

It's one of. It's one or the other. I'm not making it up, I swear. And also in this stage show, Maria and Bernardo live with their parents.

[A]

Yes, yes. And the choice to instead have Maria and Bernardo have sort of like, taken custody. Not Maria and Bernardo. Anita and Bernardo have taken custody of Maria, I think is really solid. Because it's also something that. There's something to the ways in which you fight against infantilization when you're a teen.

[B]

Sure.

[A]

And to the ways in which that changes when it's your big brother telling you to sit down and play nice versus your father.

[B]

I also think it's just. It helps simplify everyone's backstory a bit.

[A]

Oh, for sure.

[B]

Yeah. And it's. I think it's also ironic and successful for the most part. This is a much younger looking cast than the original.

[A]

For the most part. Yeah.

[B]

So for the original, everyone looks 25. And then when you hear, like that, their parents off screen, you. You're kind of always reminded, oh, these are, technically speaking, children.

[A]

Natalie saying that Natalie wood was like, 16. Theoretically, when she's supposed to be playing Maria, it's like, that is not a 16 year old girl.

[B]

That's not a 16 year old girl.

[A]

That is a woman who's been married and has a child.

[B]

Absolutely. She has seen things. She has experienced things.

[A]

And she will experience more.

[B]

She will absolutely experience more. What's something you want to dive into immediately? That. Because we've just sort of been talking, but I want you to like what's the thing. What's the thing you want to do?

[A]

Oh, okay. So I gotta set the stage for this one. So again, I mentioned I grew up in rural, ish Ohio. It's now very much become suburban. It's gone through a huge sprawl in the last 20 years. And one of the theaters that, when we went downtown to Columbus that I would interact with was Columbus Children's Theater. And when they did a beautiful production of the wizard of Oz, there was a really intriguing Lollipop Guild member who really, just. Like, I was young and even, like. Like, every. Like, he became the standard to which everyone in the Children's Little Ohio scene was, like, held to. He did many other things. He played Danny Zuko in Grease. And that would be a man named Michael Feist.

[B]

And it's Feist. Not Feist. Feist.

[A]

I've always known it as Feist, but I don't know his family.

[B]

I genuinely don't know.

[A]

I believe it's Feist.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

And, like, so he's older than me. He was, like, very much, like, grown. The. The version of the wizard of Oz that I saw was the tape that CCT has, and I love cct. They're doing what they can, and. And they would literally show this wizard of Oz tape as, like, a way of, like, if these kids can do it, so can you. And I'm like, these kids are in high school now.

[B]

Exactly.

[A]

But it worked.

[B]

It worked. So. So Feist showed up as a Lollipop Guild member, and you're like, who is she?

[A]

Who is that? And then continued to just be, like, the pride and joy of the 614 of beautiful work in Newsies. The best part of Dear Evan Hansen, like, just one of the most, like, genuine, lovely, like, came back to Ohio a lot. His family are known. I'm not going to name the town they're from, but, like, their family is very much respected, cool, and are good people. And when I tell you I went in preparing, like, I knew he was gonna be great, but I was also like, I need to, like, emotionally prepare myself if he's not the best part of this movie, because every single person I know in my hometown is like, go, Mikey, go.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And thank God I didn't have to prepare myself at all, because he was the best part of the entire fucking movie.

[B]

Well, I think part of why you might wonder is Riv is a big part of west side Story. He's not the focal point. And you also don't know, going into this remake, like, how much screen time does he have. How does Spielberg edit it around every.

[A]

Version of west side Story before this, I would say Anita is like, the role.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Mike Feist, through talent and chutzpah alone. And Jenna, the role for me. Ariana was also lovely, as Anita fully did the part.

[B]

She did it.

[A]

But there's a difference between doing the part and reimagining and reinventing the part in a way that makes it interesting to me in a way that it has never been before.

[B]

So one of the questions on the Discord was sort of, what exactly is this movie's legacy? Somebody said, I feel like nobody talks about it anymore. Well, so. So. So I think ultimately what this movie is now known for is launching the careers on film of Mike Feist and Rachel Zegler.

[A]

Honestly. Yeah.

[B]

And Feist has probably cashed in a bit better than Zegler. But that's. I think, now. But we'll see. They are young, lives are long, and everything is in flux. When the movie came out, it was already announced that Rachel was going to be in Hunger Games. She was going to be Snow White.

[A]

Was Snow White announced already?

[B]

It was because what had happened was Disney watched. Because Disney bought Fox, which made this movie, and they watched the dailies. It's very Julie Andrews getting Sound of Music from the My Fair Lady.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

From the Mary Poppins dailies. Yeah. Yeah. Rachel Zegler. They looked at the dailies of west side Story, and they're like, oh, I think we found our Snow White.

[A]

And they're right. She's incredible.

[B]

She's. Well, that was the thing. So I go into this screening, and I walked out going, oh, the two performances of this movie are. Mike Fais and Rachel Zegler. Like, they own this movie.

[A]

I want to know what the weird alternate universe that exists in somewhere in, like, String Theory where Maria and Riff and what happened.

[B]

Sure.

[A]

Yeah. Like, do they survive the plot if it's Riff and not Tony? Because. No, but, like, Tony dies. Okay, spoiler alert. If you're not familiar with west side.

[B]

Story, you've already said they both die.

[A]

But, like, I'm about to get into, like, okay, at this point, if you listen this far into the episode, go read Wikipedia.

[B]

Read.

[A]

Reading is fundamental. But. So the only reason Tony dies is because Bernardo kills Riff. Tony kills Bernardo in a fit of rage. And then Chino Bernardo's like, in this version, like, a friend who really looks up to him. And he's also, like, dating Maria, Aspiring to date Maria, groomed to, like, move the family into a different.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

He decides it is his duty As a man to defend Bernardo's memory and Maria's family. By killing Tony.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

If Riff just called off the Rumble because I'm in love with your sister, there's gonna be problems.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

But I don't know if Bernardo would have been like, I'm fast forwarding to murdering you.

[B]

I don't. I.

[A]

Because I don't think Bernardo. This is like a character controversial thing. I don't think Bernardo meant to kill Riff in this.

[B]

In the remake, it is staged.

[A]

Yeah. No, in this version.

[B]

In this version, it is staged. That Bernardo stabbing Riff is an accident.

[A]

And the. The look between the two of them when David and Mike lock eyes.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

It's a play.

[B]

Yeah. Because so in the Rumble. Usually what happens in the Rumble is that both Bernardo and Riff take out switchblades and start swiping at each other. And then ultimately, what happens is Bernardo stabs Riff and they both. In this. It's even shown in the original movie, like, when it happens, they both are like, oh, shit, I can't believe I just did that. Like, it was sort of. They were more in love with the idea of possibly stabbing each other. And even so, like, not necessarily fatally.

[A]

They were boys.

[B]

Yeah. They're. They're all children. And that's. That's something I will talk about with Kushner's screenplay in this version that I actually do have an issue with. Not in terms of the children, but in terms of the speed of things and the over articulation of reasoning, which is something that I. I have an issue with in general with the screenplay. There are so many things that he does structurally that I think are great. It's. That. That's my fundamental issue with his screenplay. But I'm gonna. I'm gonna hang myself. In this version, it happens because Tony is trying to get Riff out of it. And in a physical thrust, Riff comes out of it and accidentally thrusts himself into Bernardo's knife.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

So even though the knife is out there, he's not actively.

[A]

There is truantly no one to blame.

[B]

Exactly.

[A]

And Tony, I think, even recognizes that. Because while he ends up killing Bernardo in a fit of, like, pure brotherly fury, after this, he wasn't thinking sensibly.

[B]

It was a. It was a blackout moment. And this. And this. And this version makes it very clear that Tony has a history of violence.

[A]

And he goes into the red room.

[B]

Yes, he. Exactly.

[A]

And when we get to screenplay, another very, very good addition from Kushner, I think. I think it makes Tony much more interesting.

[B]

Well, something that I thought was interesting about Tony in this version and with Ansel Elgort's portrayal of him. And I think Ansel is giving a half successful performance and a half not successful. Part of it is the part. Part of it is him, part of it is Spielberg. Both in terms of the success and the not total success. This is not a Russell Crowe and Les Mis embarrassment. This is also not a Barbra Streisand and Funny Girl success. It is somewhere in the midd.

[A]

My controversial statement is that Russell Crowe would have been very good in a miniseries of the book Les Miserables. He just couldn't sing and they should have dubbed him, but I think he acted it very well.

[B]

I was also watching a video where they pulled all these interviews with Russell Crowe where he's like, oh, I actually went to like six different voice teachers for this.

[A]

Sometimes you just can't sing and that's okay.

[B]

But also they were like, you don't go to six different teachers because they're all gonna tell you different things and your voice is gonna come out mangle. Like, go to one and figure it out. Point is, yeah, this version of Tony is much more of a meathead. Whereas in the stage show, in the original, he's portrayed as the former leader of the jets of sort of the like of the charismatic leader and not Mastermind, but like, had brains to him.

[A]

Like, when Tony in the stage show comes out, like, they talk the way they talk about him before you meet Tony, it's kinda like, this is Tony.

[B]

Yeah, this was the head of this gang. Because. And, well, that is the problem with the role and how it's been really hard to find someone successful in it because you were told he used to. He was Riff 1.0, or like the prototype that Riff became. And then you meet him and he's just like such a dandy, and you can't make the connection, and you never make the connection.

[A]

What's sort of fascinating to me, predating the genesis of the term by like 30 or 40 years, Tony's kind of a manic pixie dream boy, is he. He sort of exists to love Maria with blinders on. And then everyone grows from him entering their life. He's not. He's not a full adherence to the trope, but it's kind of a fascinating thing where, like, normally it would be like the female ingenue that gets that trait.

[B]

Yeah, I'm gonna die and you're gonna learn a lot about yourself from my dying.

[A]

Exactly. But instead it's Tony.

[B]

Yeah, well, yeah, that's fair. I'm not sure if I think he's a manic pixie dream boy only because there's nothing terribly interesting about him. But also I think that. Okay, I have so much to say because another criticism that people have always had is like, why do Tony and Maria fall in love? Because it's Romeo and Juliet and it happens so fast. And then in this remake, a criticism that I've heard from some people is they did a lot of work to make Maria smarter and stronger.

[A]

She's so interesting in this version.

[B]

I mean I've always found her to be interesting.

[A]

I really love how they fleshed her.

[B]

They sharpened her a lot more in this version. A lot of things about that make her great. There are a couple of things where I think it fumbles because of that. Of if you make her so much stronger, then some of the purpleness of the romance now feels less passionate to me. But also I so. But a lot of people are like, well then why does she. How does she fall in love with Tony in this version if she's so strong and he's such like a dud? I think a. You can control who you're attracted to. And I will say that is something that Spielberg does in the filming of them in the dance at the gym.

[A]

Oh, the scene under the bleachers is beautifully shot.

[B]

The whole movie is beautifully shot. Which also is a double edged sword. But that of them walking to the bleachers, the looks they're giving each other aren't like I'm in love with you. It's a. Who are you?

[A]

Yeah, it's that instant attraction.

[B]

Yeah, it's. You're what? When you're watching Ansel look at her, it's the sniffing out of like I want to know you better. And you're watching Rachel just like kind of in a daze staring at him. And I honestly believe and I. You could obviously go into it further but that takes away from the romance of it. Tony looks like the American dream to someone like Maria. He's tall, he's blonde, he's pretty and he's like a sweet little dum dum. Listen, if you are attracted to men, I want you to look me in my Toni Collette loving face and tell me you have not been guilty of once loving someone or at least falling for someone or being attracted to someone simply because they were tall. They looked like they could be in a J Crew ad and they were kind of nice to you.

[A]

I have an allergy to blondes, but otherwise doesn't have to be blonde.

[B]

Doesn't have to be blonde. Could be a redhead. Even fucking better.

[A]

Redheads.

[B]

Yeah, redheads. Gorgeous. Kit Connor. Every ladies and gentlemen. I mean, there's like one of the famous gay memes of like, is he hot or is he tall? Is he. You know, all these things.

[A]

For me, it should be, is he hot or does he look a little like an alien?

[B]

Rat boy Summer. Yeah.

[A]

Mike Feist season.

[B]

Yep, yep, yep. But so I like, in this version that they say, it's implied more that, like, Tony wasn't the leader so much as he was, like, Riff was always the leader. Tony was more the muscle. You hear about their time and you hear about their time in the Jets. Like, Tony was the guy who came in, in the last third of a fight to, like, just pummel whoever was, like, last man standing and get them off their territory. And the last time they did it, it went too far. And then he ended up going away for sure.

[A]

But also, listeners, you did not see the look on my face. Just there. You implanted a vision in my brain of some crazy crossover in which Riff and Tony are Pinky and the Brain.

[B]

That's fun.

[A]

I'd watch it, but I will say.

[B]

Yeah, and it's Riff, Riff, riff, riff, Riff. Okay.

[A]

But I feel like there is legitimately a thing with this version of Tony where I think Tony Kushner did a lot of effort in terms of making Toni more interesting. I specifically, I wrote this down when I was rewatching the film in preparation for this because it's, like, maybe the most charming and just funny and actually a teenager line that I've ever heard in any version of Tony that has existed. Let's get some beers, get some weed and go to the zoo.

[B]

That's very teenagery.

[A]

It's very teeny, but it's also very. Yeah, that's like an 18 year old in his first love. And he's like, let's just go to the zoo and get high and be together.

[B]

The line that they give Tony, that Ansel. And it's a line that Ansel actually delivers perfectly, is right before it's in between Maria and Tonight.

[A]

Okay?

[B]

Because it's. Oh. People are always like, you know, how does he find her? All these other things? And, like, he finds her by accident, kind of. And they acknowledge that in the movie. Because when they're talking and she's up there and he goes, can I come up? She goes, no. And he goes, but I found you. He says it so sweetly. And I'm like, for me, the Ansel, you know, real world stuff aside, like that delivery of a tall, handsome boy who looks like the American dream looking up, and he's going, but I found you. I'm like, I get it. I absolutely get it. And I would not be immune. I fucking wrote a play about how I'm not immune. And there's. I think where the movie works in terms of their connection is that animal instinct. There are other things. There are times when watching it where I'm like, this would work even better if they did the original Robbins choreo. I have. I have conversations to be had about Justin Peck.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

This is better than his work in carousel. 1000% better. There are things about the choreography that I have issues with and things where I think, it's fine. I pin, pin, pin, pin.

[A]

We'll get to it.

[B]

Pin, pin, pin. But I understand this movie made it more understandable to me, the attraction. I think that this movie has a more compelling first half than the original. I think it actually fumbles the second half, whereas I think the original actually excels. And I will absolutely talk about that more. Part of that is the air. Part of it is the over articulation of stuff.

[A]

Interesting, because for me, one of my two favorite moments in the entire film is in the second half.

[B]

There are things in the second half that are lovely.

[A]

No, it's an extended sequence. It's not a moment.

[B]

So you talk about how you cried every single time. I've never cried watching this movie. So this morning I rewatched the first 30 minutes and I got a little choked up in the opening. Not for a real reason. It was when the sharks grab Baby John and are about to pierce his ear and he shouts jets.

[A]

Okay, yes. But also, I want to talk about that moment specifically. I wrote down two pages.

[B]

Can I tell you why I got choked up?

[A]

Why?

[B]

Because life and I'm so tired and depression and something about it I like. I always have a thing. And I don't cry easily. I really don't. Sometimes in theater, but almost never for movies, I cry more often when somebody comes through for somebody else. Because in this world, that's really rare. And it's never from the people you want. So, like, you want to make me sob.

[A]

Margaret Hall.

[B]

What you do is you play for me the Christmas episode of Bob's burgers from 2022, where Tina shows the fuck up for Louise's poem and I am a puddle every single time, without fail, like clockwork.

[A]

And see, for me, what always gets me is like a moment of silent Understanding that too. The episode of television that would, like, put on. So it's. There's this whole arc in the show called Bones with a serial killer called the Gravedigger. And there's an episode, it's a two parter, it's called Ancient, the Spaceship. And it's Dr. Brennan and. And it's Dr. Hodgins, who've, like, they've been colleagues for years, but, like, were never, like, particularly personally close. And they're. They both think they're gonna die together. They're buried in this car. And Hodgins looks at her and basically it's like, it's been a pleasure working with you. And she's like, notorious. She doesn't do physical contact. It makes her uncomfortable. She just grabs him and hugs him. And they. When they cut to show both of them closing their eyes and really just feeling the hug, I weep.

[B]

Oh, it's the toys holding hands as they're about to go into the furnace in Toy Story 3.

[A]

Exactly. There's something about, like, the silent understanding and communication beyond words that just gets me every time. But that's the very thing that makes me weep every time I watch this film. And it's in the second half, and it's in one hand, one heart. And it's the very, if not the final one of the final shots of that entire sequence. And it's just locked on Rachel Zegler, and it's the stained glass across her face. And she's looking at him with so much trust as she hits that final high note. And just the second I hear it ring in my ears, I'm just crying because she wanted it to work so bad and she believed it would.

[B]

Yeah, yeah. When you know what's coming. And it's still sad. So I bring this back to people asking about the legacy. They also asked about the Ansell vault. Somebody was like, well, you went to Stage Door Manor with Ansel. Any stories? No, not really. He was weird and he was a tap dancer, but he wasn't a structured tap dancer. He was like a Savion Glover. I go with the feel. So he was in the Our Time cabaret with us, and he couldn't do the tap break during the Give My regards to Broadway section. And because he spoke so much about how much tap he had learned, and we realized, oh, you're not like a choreographed tapper. Like, you have to be in the moment. It was very odd. And so it took him all summer to learn the tap break. And even when he did, he still was kind of. Of Weird with it.

[A]

And I'm being completely honest here. This was my opinion before any of the allegations or anything.

[B]

Sure, sure.

[A]

Ansel Algor never made sense to me because for me, everything is always about the eyes. And his eyes are constantly empty. And I know that, like, the himbo head empty, no thoughts thing is like, a thing for some people. I like my men to look smart.

[B]

Well, I like to know that there are thoughts in there for sure. Or at least emotions. Which is why I think he's half successful in this movie. Because the part of Tony that is meathead, that is former Jet Gang member, like, and he's trying to reform himself. That makes sense to me. Watching him out of his depth really try, like, overreaching for intelligence and emotional. And emotional maturity. Like, that, to me, is what makes his Tony endearing. It's again in the second half when actual emotions take over that I find that he is not.

[A]

But I don't think there was even a problem in the first half. And this is the moment that I sat back and was like, we're gonna be okay in the movie in regards to my, like, concern about Mike. And then me being like, oh, no, wait, no, it's better than I ever thought it could be. It's that scene that they have in the basement of Valentina's store.

[B]

Sure.

[A]

When Riff is trying to convince him to come to the dance and really playing on every manipulative tactic he has emotionally to get Tony to do this. And, like, Mike is acting his ass off. You're getting so much character and relationship information from the way he's interacting in that scene. And Tony is standing there stacking cans and looks like he's also doing math in his head. And there's a way to do that. In a way, he's like, no, I'm tuning Riff out here. And that maybe is the direction he was given, but it didn't read like that to me.

[B]

That is. That is the feeling I got watching that scene was that he is trying to move on as best he can. There's a. There is a. I don't know how many people out there have had the same experience where you have a realization about some of the people who are closest to you in your life, that they're actually not good for you, no matter how much you love them. And you don't know how to go about phasing them out. And so you're like, part of you is trying to cut them out, while part of you is also trying to not have them be mad at you have it go. And I don't. I'm not saying this is way much overthinking than I think Ansel or even Tony Kushner did with the screenplay, but I think that that is something to think about in that scene of his. Tony, who is on an emo, on an intelligence level of 1 to 10, is probably a 4.56 when he's had some sushi.

[A]

Oh, yeah.

[B]

And on an emotional level, it's like actually probably like a 7. This is a Tony who's learned probably while in Attica or wherever Attica Jr is, of being more open with himself and what he's feeling.

[A]

Because I do think he did a good job with the scene when he's explaining to Maria what he did.

[B]

Well. And also I think where Spielberg is smart in that can sacking scene is when Ansel is talking about what he's trying to do with his life. And rather he doesn't keep the camera on Ansel too long. He then cuts to Mike and you watch his Riff realize that his. That this Tony is actually starting to move on from him. And his response is like, you know what? You're too deep for me. And. And.

[A]

But what I love so much about it, I specifically rewatched that scene before coming here because I knew I wanted to talk about it, is I love, like, he's saying it and his tone is so cutting.

[B]

Oh, it's pointed.

[A]

His eyes are so sad.

[B]

Yeah, it's very pointed, for sure.

[A]

And it's layered in such a good way. And I just, I wish for all of, like, the like, difference between like, subtext and context and front text that we're getting from Riff in that scene. I wish we'd been getting equally as much from Tony because he has to be extremely conflicted because he does go to the dance. He does not resist the manipulation.

[B]

No. Well, it's also, I don't like the literal sentence of I can't go. My parole officer, you know, won't like, I. I'm on parole. I can't do that. Because then also now there's like a legal reason he can't go.

[A]

And also there's not a legal reason for the dance. He can't go to the rumble. Yeah, this is a, like, police sanctioned dance thing. He ab. I'm sure Krupke would love to see him there.

[B]

Well, he sees Grupki and he's like. But I. Yeah. So I have more things I want to say. But before we do any of that, we got to take another break.

[A]

Billy I beg to differ with you.

[B]

How do you mean?

[A]

You're the top. Yeah. You're an arrow collar. You're the top. You're a Coolidge dollar. You're the nimble tread of the feet of Fred Astaire.

[B]

And we're back. So the thing about Tony in this, and I need. We need to put the Ansel allegations aside, not because they don't matter, but because we are specifically talking about this movie. Obviously, his allegations are a part of the legacy because this is the last film he's done.

[A]

And also the one thing that I will flag with this is I think it killed the movie.

[B]

I don't think it killed the movie because that's a question that people ask was like, do you think that the time it came out killed its box office? I think it coming out in this time when we were just getting back to the movie theaters is ultimately what killed it.

[A]

Oh, I think that was the number one factor. But I think that it could have had a chance if teens had been able to really rally around it and create a fandom around it. And I think this killed that.

[B]

Yes. I think that the fact that as far as I know, teens are not super on board with this movie or don't care, don't know much about it. And part of that is probably the ansell of it all. Once I listened to a lot of Oscar podcasts and once this got put on Disney, they put it on Disney like three weeks before the Oscars happened. So voting was just starting to happen and all of these Oscar pundits were talking about how, oh, it's actually starting to enter the zeitgeist again. Yes, it. It didn't do well in theaters or like it did about as well as one could during this time. But like, now is actually entering the cultural chat and I guess it was for a minute and then the Oscars happened and then no one talked about it ever again. I think that this movie is mostly spoken of in terms of. Mike Feist has begun a really promising movie career. This is looked at as a major launching point for him.

[A]

It was his film debut, really.

[B]

He's been in other movies, but his principal debut. This is the legitimate film debut of Rachel.

[A]

Oh, yeah.

[B]

Has never been in anything. And it is one of those. It is, for me, it is similar to a Streisand and Funny Girl of. You've never been on film before. This is your first, you know, professional film or Streisand did TV specials for her singing.

[A]

What did. Maybe something. Because this movie got so delayed in terms of release. But I don't think Mike filmed a major, like non indie picture before this.

[B]

Maybe not. I don't know. I was looking at his IMDb. He had stuff between 2014 and 2019, but a lot of TV.

[A]

I mean, there's like the recorded newsies.

[B]

Yeah. But also, I mean, I think any major movies he was in prior to this, he was like a two line person.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

So when I say debut, I mean like legitimately never.

[A]

And this is very much what put him on like the general public's attention.

[B]

Yes. Well, because he started to get late Oscar buzz towards the end. I think he got a BAFTA nomination.

[A]

But he got something nominated.

[B]

He got one or two nominations towards the very end.

[A]

And then he brought Rachel as his date.

[B]

It was. It was bafta. It was bafta. Because also like Rachel came out the gate with Oscar buzz and then it all sort of died after the Golden Globes because she got the National Board of Review for best Actress. She won the Globe for actress in a comedy or musical. And then nothing. And then she got like one more thing right before the outfit. So it surprised me.

[A]

I feel like there's a lot of old guard who are allergic to these kind of success stories these days where they're like, you have to earn your stripes. Because I feel like people gave similar weird energy to Austin Butler. It's apples and oranges because Austin had been acting since he was a child. But people get weird about giving you awards for that performance and not for your life.

[B]

Yeah, the Oscar was Oscars. We could have a whole separate podcast about what, what makes you get the nomination, what allows for the win. Because. But let's put it more specifically towards this. Rachel gets pretty across the board, rave reviews for this movie. I thought her and Mike were the absolute standouts.

[A]

They were my standouts with David as a very close.

[B]

My issue, my biggest issue with Rachel's performance is again, the last 20 minutes. Part of that is her. Part of that is Spielberg. My only issue with Mike is there are two moments of dance that I don't like, but it's not him. Like, it's moments where I'm like, dance should not happen here.

[A]

What are the moments for you?

[B]

The last burst of dance and cool. I think every time I watch it, I find it laughable. Oh, my God. Part of it is I don't think Dan should happen there. And I don't think he's a good enough dancer to carry it off.

[A]

I don't agree on that one.

[B]

But what's your second One with Mike or.

[A]

I like. I liked it being a dance moment.

[B]

I don't like it being a dance moment. It's just.

[A]

I also, though, I'm like, a sucker for a good contemporary, angry dance.

[B]

Sure. It's just it. It's like any musical. It's high risk, high reward. Like, when it lands for you, it lands for you, and when it doesn't, it is weird. It doesn't land.

[A]

And the one thing I will say, though, is, like, even if it doesn't land for you, that's fine. I do think Mike was up to the task, dancing wise.

[B]

I don't know him much as a dancer. I only know him really, as a dancer from this movie. And I think he does the rest of the dancing very well. When I say he's not up to the task, I mean, that choreography for that burst is so odd. And he's like. He's not a Robbie Fairchild who's like, I'll make this look fluid because peculiar choreography always looks good on my body.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

I'm like, Mike is a. Is a dancing actor, and, like, it just doesn't have that vocabulary.

[A]

You're making me really depressed that we never got an American in Paris with Mike.

[B]

Ah, yeah.

[A]

He would have been so. He. I, like, have talked about this a lot on other podcasts and things of how there's, like, the Fred Astaire, Tom Holland movie that's happening. I don't understand why that's happening when Fred Astaire's, like, explicitly said in his will he did not want a biopic thing being made.

[B]

When has that ever stopped Hollywood?

[A]

I just. I don't understand why that is happening and not a Gene Kelly biopic. Because the man lived, like, 40 fucking lives.

[B]

Yeah, I'm sure would love a biopic.

[A]

I would love to put Mike forward because specifically Mike's performance in Singin in the Rain, which he did before Newsies. He can do the fluid suu, like, that whole, like, the title number. Singing in the Rain is not an easy dance.

[B]

I would actually even argue. I think that Kelly is a better fit for fights because, like, Kelly has a fluidity to him, but he's much more of an athletic kind of dancer. Whereas Astaire is all water, all technique. Esther is technique and water. Whereas. Whereas I find that Kelly is like caramel and dynamite.

[A]

I love that description for Kelly. Someone please put that on a shirt for me.

[B]

There you go.

[A]

But I also, I. Astera is almost even. Not even water to me. He's like vapor. He's like Steam.

[B]

But that's what I mean. It's like fluid and light.

[A]

Yeah, there's just. There's something.

[B]

Yeah, I think. I think steam is much more accurate because he is. It's very lighter than air. It's cloud. Like, he floats. You would not put a young Fred Astaire as a jet in west side Story.

[A]

No. Oh, my God, no.

[B]

But you would. You could put a young Gene Kelly in like that.

[A]

That I'd argue a young Gene Kelly is the archetype for which Jerome Robbins was originally choreographing.

[B]

Probably, but. So I don't know how we got here. Oh, so someone. So someone asked about Ansel. I'm like, yeah, that's what he was like at stage.

[A]

Wait, no, you're the Oscars.

[B]

So.

[A]

Oh.

[B]

Oh, I don't. I don't. So I think that where Mike succeeds best in dancing is in dance at the gym, which is also where I think the choreography. I think that's the best choreography in the movie. Although I think Mambo is not as good as the first half. But again, I will talk about that more in a second. I have a lot of thoughts about Justin Peck's choreography in this movie compared to Jerome Robbins, and it is ultimately the root of my issue with Peck as a musical theater choreographer.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

Because I think what Peck does. Well, fuck it. I said I was gonna get to Later. This is who I am.

[A]

This is later.

[B]

This is later. This is who I am. What Peck does really well is Peck does energy via dance really well. I've watched it when I have gone to see him stuff at New York City Ballet. Like, I watched his Copeland pieces with friend of the pod, Patrick Sulkin, and we both were like, oh, this is what Peck does. Like, this is his MO and it works a lot more in west side Story than it does in something like Carousel. Because in west side Story, it's very youthful, fireworky energy. It is all these hormones and sweat and rage with not a lot of places to go. So there's a lot of jittery action to his choreography in west side Story. It works for me in the prologue. It works for me in the first half of Dance at the gym. Mambo's not bad, but Mambo needs more for me. Needed more personality and a difference from both sides. And I think it doesn't work in America, where it never. Where it just plateaus from the start and stays there. I don't think America has a structure in its dance at all.

[A]

No, I'm not even arguing. I'm Gonna give you a piece of historical context, because I think I know why you're feeling that way.

[B]

Please do so.

[A]

For well over a decade, like, just, in fact, started New York City Ballet, like, was very much a member of their core for well over a decade. Maybe it might have even veered into almost two decades. One of his primary pieces of repertory within the New York City Ballet was dancing the role of Bernardo in the west side Story Suite. And, like, you can, like, dancers, like, yes. Choreography comes in and out of your muscles. You cannot dance a suite like that, that long without it becoming, like, rote memorization in your bones. Like, he. He can probably be 95 and still mentally at least be able to do it, even if his bones can't do it.

[B]

Oh, for sure.

[A]

Like, he knows the Bernardo track so solidly.

[B]

This is what Phyllis Smith spoke of in Follies when Ben is like, how do you remember that mirror number? She's like, it's in my bones.

[A]

Yeah. It will never leave.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And I. So to me, the mamba worked better than America. For me.

[B]

Oh, it works better than America.

[A]

But I think it's kind of fascinating, the moments of his choreography in this film that I like the most, which is absolutely the prologue. It is that glorious entrance into dance at the gym. And I really liked cool.

[B]

I like a lot of cool.

[A]

But to me, the parts that worked were the parts that he was not dancing in nearby City Ballet. So I don't think he was having to fight his own muscle memory as much of, like, I'm not doing the Jerome Robbins version. I'm doing a new version fair. And so I feel like he was able to find, like, I specifically think about the fact as I was watching for this when I watched the film recently. Call me out if I'm wrong on this, because I did not spot it. I don't think there is a single iconic, like, tuck, jump, snap in Justin Peck's choreography for this.

[B]

Oh, none.

[A]

Yeah. It's like, unless he buried it way in the back on an extra, there.

[B]

There is the only thing I can find in his choreography for this. Also, before anyone yells at me, Peter Gennaro, is he speaking responsible for the shark choreography of the original? Of course. Robbins, I'm sure, fine tuned it. He oversaw the entire thing. But it has been said Gennaro is responsible for the choreography in America. A lot of the shark stuff in.

[A]

Mama, specifically, everything, you know, from the film. Jerome Robbins got thrown off that set very quickly, and Peter was the one who was really putting it on screen.

[B]

Absolutely. So we will. As we. When we talk about choreography with the original and we talk about Robbins. Yes. Gennaro a part of it. We know you're talking to two people who absolutely know that. So we're saying that out before anybody yells at us.

[A]

Yes. I swear to you, I know it. I teach it to NYU students every year.

[B]

Yes, yes, yes. When I say that I prefer the first half of dance at the gym as opposed to the mambo in this version, rest assured, I think mambo is better than America. Yeah. I wonder if. So there's. Yeah, there's no. There's no snap jump thingy. The only thing I can think of is the very beginning of the prologue, when they are sort of each coming out of the groups, do, like, one little thing, and then they all start dancing together. They do something very similar to that in the original. But it's the, like, hands move over. They. It's his version of that, but it's not.

[A]

No. He's not throwing Robbins away by any means. But I feel like with the jets, he found a more fluid way to find new movement for them, because I think it was also new tracks for him, and I could kind of feel him like resisting something when choreographing the Sharks.

[B]

So what I do like about Peck's choreography is the fact. Because it was something that was always kind of has been not ridiculed, but has been questioned about the original Robbins Jack choreography in terms of how it has aged. Is. Is this a little too beautiful for these dancers?

[A]

Oh, yeah. People talk about it all the time.

[B]

Yes. And I think there's a fairness to that. Where Robbins and Gennaro were brilliant was knowing how to make that ultimately not matter of knowing how to build a number the way America builds in both the stage and the original movie.

[A]

And I also think there's something to be said for the fact that the musical originally premiered in 1957. And this brings me back to the Baby John moment that I'm so obsessed with and how Baby John, I think, is actually the most interesting character to track in terms of evolution in this new film of Baby John's. For lack of a better term, assault that happens in the prologue, in the original stage version and also in the original film is very clearly choreographed.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And it's, like, undeniably choreographed in this as well. For safety reasons, for not hurting actor reasons. Many reasons why it. Absolutely. But it does not feel that way in this film of. There is such. I have so much respect for Spielberg for out the gate with this Adaptation saying, no. This boy who we're going to cast as very clearly younger than every single other person on this screen, except for the girl who's his dance partner in the dance sequence. But like, the actor playing Baby John is very clearly young. Yeah, we see him running in terror. He gets cornered by actors who have facial hair as a very obvious marker of being older. Desperately tries to run up that chain link fence. One of my favorite shots in the entire movie. And no one ever talks about it. When he goes to jump off, the first shot we see, we see him, like, land as if he's landing on the camera. And then it goes to the right shot. I love that shot of him screaming right at the camera. And then Spielberg's willingness to unflinchingly show that much blood and pain on him with the nail through the ear, it's not just a cut, it's an impalement. And it's serious blood. And then for Schrank to rip it back out of his ear and then just. I think it's a really good moment of visceral. Whereas when they were doing the 1957 original, I'm sure people were already in their feelings about the fact that there were gangs on stage anyway. Yeah, I don't necessarily think putting a bunch of stage blood on stage for Baby John was gonna be the right call in 1957, but I think it was so the right call in 2021.

[B]

Well, I think, first of all, yes, the era in which the original stage show and the original movie came out absolutely influences how they project blood, how they project violence. Don't forget, the original film came out still during the Hays Code. The Hays Code was starting to die.

[A]

But it was still there.

[B]

Some Like It Hot Rip was the first nail in the coffin, but it did not totally die just yet. So in terms of blood and violence, it had to be a specific kind of way. I also think that the way that the violence is done in the prologue, in the original, either you buy it or you don't. Like, either you buy into the world or you don't. But it also is like, this is still a musical. It's going to be a musical. Which ultimately is. One of my conflicts of this version is the violence is very real. I remember being at that screening and during the prologue, you know, they're painting.

[A]

Oh, the paint can, but.

[B]

And then the. And then the sharks show up. And as they're fighting somebody, I think it's Baby John hits one of the sharks with the paint.

[A]

It's not Baby John, I think it's Arab.

[B]

What? One of them. I thought it might have been Baby John because when he is cornered, one of the guys, one of the sharks has some of the paint on his face, maybe a little bit of blood. So I. I got the indication that he was the guy that Baby John hit with the can. But maybe it was Arab. I don't know.

[A]

I thought it was Jess. But also, it's happening so fast.

[B]

These. These pretty boys from newsies and mean girls all look the same to me.

[A]

Okay. But I will say, just the Prado is so good in this movie and I love you and you did a very good job.

[B]

It's very. It's a very well cast film. But what I mean is that I remember when that paint can hit that shark. It was loud, it was real. And the entire. The entire. It was. I remember the entire theater all going, oh, like it was, oh, the violence gonna happen. And then when Shrank took out the nail, everybody. That was the second time everybody went.

[A]

Like from the get go. And I feel like this is a through line of this entire adaptation. Is Spielberg and Kushner are not shying away from the brutalism of this piece.

[B]

No.

[A]

With the violence, yes. But also how, frankly, Riff uses slurs. The ways in which the jets talk about the Sharks. It's pulling no punches in that regard. And then specifically the line that Valentina has when talking to Tony about his friends and basically being like, I married a gringo, so he thinks I'm a gringo, but I'm not. And that line, and then the way it echoes when we get to the end and Anita's assault. And that also brings me to the Baby John thread of it all, is normally Baby John does not participate in the assault on a Nita. Normally in the stage show, he don't.

[B]

They lower him, though, in the original, like, I thought he's the one that they lower.

[A]

Maybe in some versions, normally ice is outside the door, and I think Baby John is with him as well. The one that starts with an M is the one who's got her legs. Macavity, Mistoffeles. The one that starts with an M. Mouthpiece, maybe.

[B]

This sounds about right.

[A]

But from the versions I have experienced, Baby John is not normally a direct perpetrator, as far as I recall. And in this film, we track him go from being the innocent one to he is right in the thick of it with her. And I think that was a very good. And like, they're not drawing direct attention to it, but I really clocked it on this last watch and it really stood out to me.

[B]

I don't love that they have Graziella pounding on the door outside begging them not to hurt her. I am of the mind frame that it would be more impactful if they all were in this blur of rage and what's going for untenable feeling. Because I don't like having one person in that moment in 1956, in the. In this group of people that have just been nothing but tormenting one of them going, this is where I draw the line. I think it's more impactful if everyone is just in this blind rage. It's because we're also seeing it still true today.

[A]

In terms of the Jets. Yeah. I did like Valentina pushing against it, though.

[B]

Oh, but of course, Valentina, like Valentina's.

[A]

Little moment that she has is so.

[B]

I. I do. I would. I would like to. I would have liked Cushion to make one more look through of that speech. The point of that speech. Same thing as Doc in the original. I'm here for it. I still think it's a little on the nose in her wording. I think it can be shorter and I think it can be more direct. I remember not liking her literally saying, you have turned into rapists. I think a larger word of monster.

[A]

Animal.

[B]

Exactly. Or animal. Yeah. You are absolutely animals now. You are, you are.

[A]

You are unreachable in terms of the Graziella stuff. Just because I have a feeling we're not going to come back around to her.

[B]

I would love to do a three hour episode about Graziella. How dare you.

[A]

She went through so much.

[B]

She used to be with Tony, then she was with Riff and then Riff died. And she's like, does Tony know I'm.

[A]

Here's the way. I. I actually do like that. I do like it because normally in the stage show she's just dance partner number 50.

[B]

Yeah. And Velma and I ain't dumb like that.

[A]

But I specifically really liked. And it's in the prologue again. The prologue is just so damn good.

[B]

It is a really great prologue of.

[A]

When Riff and Grazzi come out. Like they're in like.

[B]

What are the construction things?

[A]

They're in something. And they come outside. They clearly have just finished getting to know each other. And Riff runs over and the way that she looks at him with like a. Like it's a shot of tenderness. And then she's like, wait, we're being watched. And I like watch her put on the cool girl energy. Loved that moment from Paloma and Also really dug the way in which she infused every scene with the idea that, like, she's not necessarily. Like, she cares about Riff and she cares about Tony. That's not why she's here. She's here because she is with whoever is the leader of the Jets.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And she is going to be with the person who is the most powerful because that makes her the most safe.

[B]

She also, I mean, she still has tenderness towards Tony.

[A]

Absolutely.

[B]

You see that at the gym when he shows up, and then you see.

[A]

See Riff clock it and, like, stab him again.

[B]

Yeah, absolutely.

[A]

And we even get that. Like, again, I really like the writing for the scene in the basement of the store between Riff and Tony. Ansel left something to be desired for me in terms of the performance. But if I was, like, producing west side Story, I would want to have this scene in there of the thing that Riff has being like, this is about me and Grazzi, and that's why you're so mad. And then Tony says something to him that's like, basically being like, you're doing what you always do. And I want to know so much more about what, like, what do you mean you're doing what you always do? Do you mean the manipulation thing? Do you mean picking up my seconds? Do you mean trying to, like, twist the knife with me with Grazzi? Like, it's so good. And I wrote down another one of these lines.

[B]

Talk me. No, I know. I love it. I love it. It's. Every time you do it, it makes me laugh because I'm like, clap. Classic Margie.

[A]

This is a line that Tony has to. This is Riff to Tony after Tony has had that moment.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

And I feel like this is the ethos of the entire way in which Kushner's really imagined the Jets. And I love that they put it into words here because, again, it's the unflinchingness of it, because I think there can be a tendency through a lot of directors to kind of defang the jets. And it's like, well, they're not that bad. It's like, meh. And I just. This. It's a couple lines I wake up to everything I know either getting sold or torn down and being taken over by people I don't like and they don't like me. And, you know, what's left after all of that? The Jets. And part of why I like that and why I feel like this is really a Jets film, but not in a way that I think other people would have made a Jets film is I think that this adaptation and like I always ask my students, the why now of why anything should be revived or why you should do something. I think the why now is because Spielberg and Kushner, especially with his adjustments to the screenplay, are really speaking to the white male incel culture. And I think Grazi's a part of that. And I think there's a really interesting energy. I agree that I don't want Grazzi banging on that door. What I would want to happen is her trying to resist it until maybe one of the jets says like, like, like somehow tying it back to her boyfriend killed Riff. And that being her the second it gets personal for her if you have to have her there. But I think overall, just she shouldn't be there.

[B]

Yes. There's. There are a couple of times in this screenplay where it feels a little bit like Kushner in 2018, 2019, putting that vernacular into character's mouth at this time. And there are just times where it doesn't feel right. There are also times when characters are a little too self aware and a little too articulate with their feelings where I'm like, I think it's more powerful just to have no one say anything. There are times when it works. Like, I think this, the line you just gave of rifts. Like, I think that is a very not cover. That's a very well crafted balance of. This is an encapsulation of his character and he is self aware enough to say it this way any further and it would be a little too Kushner's.

[A]

And it's the fact that he's not singing like a big public thing. It's him to Tony.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

It's just the two of them down there. But also the other thing, like, you just keep giving me some lovely mental images that I'm gonna stew on as a producer.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

I would love to see a production in which one of the like, photos on the mood board for Graziella Danielle is Graciela Danielle. No. Oh, for Grazie. Sorry.

[B]

For Grizabella Danielle.

[A]

Yes. Sorry. Other Grazzi, you're lovely and would never do this for Grazzi. In west side Story, the infamous photo of the Little Rock Nine and the white lady screaming.

[B]

Oh, for sure. I also do a photo of one of the wives in Handmaid's Tale of like, totally complicit. This totally works for her. That is a wonderful photo to think of. I highly agree. So we also steered away from the Oscar talk for a second. Again, this all comes back to legacy of this movie. Right. Like, for A movie that we all were very excited for, that got very well reviewed, that got major Oscar play, and we're having this whole episode about now. People are like, well, do we talk about it? I think we talk about it with Zegler, of this being the beginning of her career. And she is sort of in an interesting period right now. We'll see what happens. She's so young. There's so much left to go. But it felt like with this movie, she was just sort of launched out of the gate. Feist is very much playing a long game. That is proving wise. The person who got the Oscar play just dominated the entire four or five months of award season was Ariana DeBose as Anita, who is very good in this movie, but was not the person I walked out of thinking when I. Thinking about when I saw this movie any of the three times I saw it. I would say this fourth time was where I was the most up on her. I was never down on her, but, like, was the most. I was like, oh, I can kind of see why. But I. I'm all. Again, I listen to Oscar podcasts. Yeah. And I've listened to quite a few in the last year. And there are some people having the small talks where they're like, I think it's not going to be much longer before we all look back on the 2022 Oscars and we go, really? Ariana DeBose dominated.

[A]

Like, she's had a rough couple years. But it might.

[B]

But I think. I don't think that they're saying that because of the last couple of years. They're looking at that year going, oh, was this such an undeniable performance? So her biggest competition was Kirsten Dunst in Power of the Dog. Who.

[A]

Which is another movie no one talks about anymore.

[B]

It's true. But was such a major part of Oscar culture that year.

[A]

Does it. Kirsten already have an Oscar? That's always all over.

[B]

She doesn't.

[A]

Oh, I thought she.

[B]

That was her first nomination.

[A]

What?

[B]

And I know I don't want to.

[A]

Talk about it as an interview with the Vampire. 1994. Stan, that pisses me off. I thought she at least got Marie Antoinette.

[B]

No, she was. She got nominated for a Globe for Interview with the Vampire. Was. I was pretty close to a nomination. She should have been nominated so good. It also helped that was the same year that her Little Women came out so Oscar voters could see. No, this is not an anomaly. This girl has the juice. Marie Antoinette. Totally virgin suicides. I'm almost gonna throw a fucking Bone out there. Not for an Oscar, but actress in a comedy or musical at the Golden Globes. Dick. She is hysterical in that movie. And it came out the same year as Drop Dead Gorgeous and Virgin Suicide. So, again, you know, she has the juice. Or lead actress in a musical comedy for Bring It On. She is the fucking. She's the glue that keeps that movie fucking together. Point is, Ariana DeBose was up against Kirsten for that. She was up against Jessie Buckley for the Lost Daughter, which was a surprise nomination. It was the indie Angenue Ellis for King Richard, who is probably her biggest competition.

[A]

But also that. That's, again, you're naming a bunch of movies no one talks about anymore.

[B]

Yeah, and that. But that was the year. Well, that was also the year, like, no one talks about any of those movies in general. Like Coda 1. We're not really talking about Coda anymore. And that really kind of was a major story, but one.

[A]

I feel like everything in like 18 months post lockdown, it was a big.

[B]

It was a big haze. But Dune is the only thing we're talking about still. And it's because we have Dune Part two.

[A]

Yeah, but. And even then, like, are we talking about Dune? Are about. We talking about everything around Dune.

[B]

Exactly.

[A]

But that's.

[B]

Are we talking about the Eyes of Tammy Faye? Are we talking about how Jessica Chastain has an Oscar?

[A]

I'm talking about Eyes of Tammy Faye.

[B]

Are you talking about.

[A]

I also grew up near Appalachia.

[B]

We're also talking about Tammy Faye. Eyes of Tammy Faye is not a very good movie with which Jessica Chastain is very good in. But that's also something. I have a lot of things to say about lead actress that year as well. I say pluck Nicole Kimmin from being the Ricardos the fuck out of there and put Zegler in.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

Easy breezy, beautiful covergirl. But you look at the category Ariana is in, and it's one of those things where. Because it's also Judi Dench for Belfast, which was a surprise. Everyone thought it was going to be what's Her Face?

[A]

But it's Judi Dench.

[B]

It's Judi Dench. That it's a solid category in which nobody is so undeniable that it's like competition.

[A]

Because I really. I remember being. And not even just from my bias speaking, I was very surprised when he wasn't nominated.

[B]

I wasn't. Because he was such a late bloomer in the awards campaign that I was like, I think it might be a little too Late for him to have the momentum. If it had started like a month earlier, I think he could have gotten. Was so Trey Kotster one for Coda.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

It was J.K. simmons for being the Ricardos, which. Part of me is like, get him out of there. Part of me is like, he is the only good performance in that movie. Then it was both. It was Kieran Hines for Belfast, which makes total sense.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And then it was Cody Smith McPhee and Jesse Plemons for Power of the Dog. And Jesse was sort of the same. Jesse was the surprise. J.K. simmons was sort of a surprise. They both had been popping up here and there.

[A]

I think both of them had a lot of goodwill in the industry.

[B]

Yes. Jesse had the. He had been around. He was in the big Oscar contender. Jk Everybody loves. It was his second Oscar nomination finally. I think Mike. It was one of those things where he. He needed three more weeks of awards juice to get in. And I think Rachel, I think, missed out by like 10 votes. It was one of the things where she was just a little too young. It was her first movie and everyone was sort of like Ariana, I think, was just sort of decided on as we all really liked this movie. Not quite enough to overthrow power, the Dog or Coda. So let's. And we're not giving Spielberg a third Oscar right now, so let's give it to her.

[A]

And it's also an interesting thing with that. Not only give it to her, but also give it to that role. Because I think of Nita as one of the. Of sort of like the golden rules of. It's just such a solid role. Again, her and her direct analogy in Romeo and Juliet is the nurse. But I would actually compare her if we're doing a Shakespeare comparison to sort of like a Hamlet of like, if someone does. Like if David Tennant does Hamlet in London, he's getting a bafta.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Like it. That's actually. Look it up. Did he win the BAFTA for that? I know he did do a film, Hamlet.

[B]

But in short, keep talking while I look at it.

[A]

Yeah. Like that is a film or a play where the role is written in such a way that it hits every single award voter box. You get the happy energy, you get the trauma. For in terms of a musical, you're getting acting, you're getting singing, you're getting dancing.

[B]

Yeah, it's. Patti LuPone said something very, very bitchy that is technically true. But she wasn't saying it for the sake of art. She was saying it to be mean to Bernadette Peters when she said Mama Rose is a role where if you don't win the Tony, you're doing it wrong. And she's not totally wrong, but she didn't say it for, like, an artistic.

[A]

And it's also, I don't think, Bernadette's fault. I think there's something very interesting to the idea of a Mama Rose who has more in common with June.

[B]

There's. I prefer the one who didn't win a Tony. Although my favorite Mama Rose is still Tyne Daly. I will say it till I'm dead.

[A]

Oh, I love Tynes and everything.

[B]

Talk about a production that had air in it. Patti LuPone, gypsy. Do you want a gypsy that's five hours long? Well, have we got the production for you? Every line is important because the playwright for it is still alive and wants you to know he wrote a book. God damn it. On that note, let's take another break.

[A]

Billy, I beg to differ with you.

[B]

How do you mean?

[A]

You're the top.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

You're an arrow collar. You're the top. You're a Coolidge dollar. You're the nimble tread of the feet.

[B]

And we're back. The thing about the awards for this, you're absolutely right. Anita is always considered the golden role. The irony is that in every Broadway production, if we take out the Van Hove production because it ultimately didn't get eligible for Tony's For Covid. Gas leak year.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

But every other production of west side Story, Maria has been nominated. Every single time Cheetah was not nominated, which is psychotic. Yeah. I think it might be that by the time those Tonys happened, I don't know if Cheetah was in the show anymore. Cheetah was actually not in west side Story for as long as we think she was because she got pregnant during the out of town tryout.

[A]

It's like jewelry and wicked. People don't realize it was how little.

[B]

Yeah. How long, how short it was. Same thing with Bernadette. Into the Woods. Like, people forget she was only in it for, like, four months.

[A]

She did a favor.

[B]

She did. And. And Cheetah, in her memoir, if you read it like she was in west side Story till she was seven months pregnant.

[A]

And that's not an easy show to do. You're getting thrown around.

[B]

Yeah. And she would have gone longer, but her gyno came to see the show and visit her backstage. He was like, you need to put in your notice tomorrow. She's like, well, I'm not gaining weight. He's like, you will balloon once you stop getting fucking thrown around in this show.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

He's like, you are harming your baby. She didn't end up harming the baby. Lisa came out perfect. But like it. But, you know, she. Seven months. That. That is including rehearsals, that's including out of town. So, like, she was really only in it for four to five months, so I think would assume she just wasn't around for that time. But that's being said. Maria always nominated Anita winning in the last one for KO and then winning in the movie. But, I mean, Maria and Anita ultimately have, like, the only true arcs of that show. So it does make sense.

[A]

Anita's original iteration of the show. Yes, yes.

[B]

But what I mean is that their arcs in the. Yes. Their arcs in the stage show are the most defined. Anita's is definitely the most tragic. She has the most fire to her. But. But they have similar arcs of like, we have the American dream. It's now dead in our eyes. So you have that bang, bang, boom. Maria gets to be the young and in love. Anita gets to be the sassy, fiery.

[A]

And now in Darren's, Anita gets to be the diva.

[B]

Yes, exactly. What is. Okay, what is. So, yeah, there is a story I was told from someone who knows, and I told it to Margaret off Mike, and I'm not telling you lot, but ask around if not to me, but ask around if you want to know.

[A]

Industry gossip.

[B]

Yep. But there is that famous story about the first people to see the final product of this movie were the leads of west side Story. They were in a giant theater like 30,000ft apart, and they all got to see it, and then everyone else eventually got to see it. The majority of that cast did not get to see it first. There is a very widespread story about after that crew saw the screening, how they responded to it and how they responded to it to the rest of the company. I'm not saying what, I'm not saying who. I'm not saying how. Ask around.

[A]

People had conflicting reactions about who came.

[B]

Off best from that screening, which is.

[A]

Fascinating to me and I think speaks less to the film and more to the baggage some people brought to the film.

[B]

Yes. From their own careers. What they were hoping to get out of it and what not even that.

[A]

But also their expectations for what they thought their capabilities were and what.

[B]

And what they expected the film was going to do for them. I think, which is ironic because the film did wonderful things for a lot of people involved.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

But there.

[A]

I'd say there's only one person who came out of this film worse off and it's Ansel Elgor and that's his own fault.

[B]

Yes, absolutely. But as I said, that's. That's a nine hour podcast that I don't have the battery with for literally for this technology. But so it's just, it's just fascinating to look back on that Oscar race and as I said, people are talking about it more in terms of like, no one is saying that Ariana's bad in the movie. It was more that these pundits are looking back on that year and going, she was that undeniable. Like, she truly.

[A]

She had the momentum for sure.

[B]

She won absolutely everything. Any award you can possibly think of, a supporting actress in a film could win that year. Ariana won and she put in the work. Like anytime she won, she was there on Instagram thanking them. She was there on Twitter thanking them. But so it's more that it's rare when someone just sweeps that way when they just dominate the field. And there are very few times we look back and go totally like another performance that did that. First of all, Sally Field and Norman Wright. But I'm pretty sure, like Meryl Streep and Sophie's Choice is one of the few times where someone just like won absolutely everything. And so with Ariana, it's, you watch a performance and she's very good, but you're also like, like, wow, this is a performance that just. You could not give her awards fast enough, you know?

[A]

Yeah. And.

[B]

And I do wonder if part of it is how she cashed in that check. Since then she has had a lot of bad clout with her hosting abilities.

[A]

I liked her this year. I stand by that. I think she's a good Tony host this year. I think they need a better writer.

[B]

Well, she needs to get better writers around her.

[A]

Yeah, she.

[B]

There are certain people that she's had in her account for a long time and I'm like, you're now at a different level. People who wrote. Who co wrote the. Angela Bassa did the thing and wrote her opening number this year. I think her best year was the year where it was unscripted.

[A]

That was a good year. I really liked the. The. This is your round of applause.

[B]

Oh, that was the first one.

[A]

Yeah. I really, I enjoyed and I feel like it showcased her dancing in a really nice way. The thing that's wild to me, he must have said no because I feel like she must have asked of get Lin back because he consistently wrote the best Tony openers of the 21st century.

[B]

He did well, he's busy, but they're friends. I need to. I need to. Are they.

[A]

I think they're friendly.

[B]

Sure, sure. It's. No, it's. I've said this on the prom episode. It's no secret that, like, Ariana burned a lot of bridges during her Broadway time.

[A]

She really did.

[B]

She really did. She made it very clear that she knew her value as a talent and was not nice to a lot of people. So I wonder how many people are willing to do her favors now. But I need to actually watch the taping of that. This is your round of applause, because I was in the room for it, and in the room, it did not look great. But that's because we didn't see the camera angles. The sound was off. It was hot as balls.

[A]

It was so hot in that theater.

[B]

It was so hot.

[A]

That was a brutal Tony.

[B]

Yeah. Not to flex, but we were there. I might have sang.

[A]

But listen, I'll just say, like, that was a hot Tony.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

United Palace.

[B]

That's what I heard.

[A]

I thought I was gonna die.

[B]

That's Whatever. That's what I heard.

[A]

I literally sent a text to my mother being like, if this is it, I love you. It's so hot.

[B]

So hot. And it got hotter when Vicky won her second Tony because I ran all over that theater and I said, we did it. Oh, God, I love that woman. So, yeah, just interesting with that. With that, with that.

[A]

But see, that's where you went with that. I. I'm gonna be really interested to see what happens with Snow White, and. Yeah, I see. So Snow White is my favorite Disney princess, which I know is not common.

[B]

But listen, there's been a lot of online discourse lately defending her, which I.

[A]

Love, which is good. The questions I have are more about the director than Rachel at this point. Yeah, I really love Snow. I think she is an incredible example of protecting that, like, little light of kindness in the face of abuse and not letting that be stolen from you. I hope that this film has people finally, like, look at her in a different way, because I can't tell you the number of people who have rolled their eyes when I say she's my favorite Disney princess. Because they're like, oh, you mean the one who, like, sounds like a flute?

[B]

And I'm like, it was 1937. That's what Sopranos sounded like. Deal with it.

[A]

Give Adriana your Justin. She was good. She was also very lovely for her one line as Juliet, actually, in the wizard of Oz.

[B]

Yeah. Well, that's the thing is, like, tastes change in terms of what sounds good, what looks good, what dances like. That's why I talk about the Red Shoes all the time. But you look at the ballet dancing in the Red shoes and you look at the ballet dancing in center stage and that is a 50 year difference. Everything evolved. So you can't look at what Moira Shearer does and then what's her face does.

[A]

It's a completely different thing.

[B]

Jody Sawyer.

[A]

I was just at screening of Nosferatu 1922 yesterday, which is arguably the most influential vampire film of all time. The only reason you think vampires die in sunlight is because of that movie. That's not in the original Dracula.

[B]

It's true in Bram Stoker's Dracula. He's suddenly makes them weaker, but doesn't kill them.

[A]

He just has like human capabilities.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And it's a whole thing.

[B]

You want to talk about vampires, talk to Margaret. I can only talk to you about Wino's 1992 rhymes to Dracula, which is.

[A]

A lovely film, but it's gorgeous to look at.

[B]

It's so weird. I love every second of it.

[A]

I think they are one of the most interesting literary devices possible.

[B]

But enough about Andrew Lloyd Webber.

[A]

Ay. But specifically why I ring up Nosferatu is because it's still billed as a horror movie even though it's been over 100 years. And there's a lot of it that like, I watched people because I had seen Nosferatu before. I went to the screening yesterday and there were definitely people in the room who the. This was their first time. They like knew it from the spongebob bit or whatever. And I could like, listen as people would be kind of like laughing and it's like, oh, this is like campy silent movie acting. And then I'd like hear and feel in the room as they got scared and they were like, why the am I scared right now I'm at like, ah, it still works. And so I want. I understand what you're getting at in terms of like, it's been 100 years, Taylor. Tastes change. I talk about that constantly in my history musical theater classes. But sometimes good art is just good art.

[B]

No, that absolutely. And I think Snow White still absolutely is. I. I walk. I watch it all the time first. So it's gorgeous to look at. It sounds beautiful and it's very effective, simple, concise storytelling. And I'm so with Rachel and Snow White, it's just been. That's been a very toxic title for the past year now.

[A]

It's Been a very toxic title. But depending on how it turns, I want to see what happens with that because we have the direct contrast of Ariana was the voice of wish, which was Disney 100's big animated film that nobody saw. And that's not her fault whatsoever. But I'm sure that that has affected her career wise.

[B]

She has had the bad luck of being in a lot of projects that did not land well. I think the most successful TV film stuff she has done has been Schmiggoonschmacago, which more is a cult following than anything else. The most. The most high profile. The most high profile stuff she has been a part of is stuff that has not landed or has been stuff that she was miscast in. And that is difficult to overcome.

[A]

It's hard.

[B]

We will see. We'll see. Mike has been very strategic so far.

[A]

He's been so. And I think part of it comes down to the fact that from the get go, Mike has been about text and Tony Kushner. So there's this beautiful book called the Making of Steven Spielberg's film West side Story where they really talk about the making of the film and all of the pre production that went into it and also the post production and how they color graded and things like that. And Tony talks a lot in the book about. First he got a phone call from Rachel asking for a like written copy of Tony's backstory for Marie in this version. She wanted to like get the old context out of her brain and get new context in. And then the next phone call he got was Mike. And Mike asked for like a little biography of Riff because he. He just as an actor. It's funny because I. From what I know, he started as a dancer, but he's very actor. And like Paloma has talked about Riff and Grazzi when they were on set together. They were method. They were Riff and Grazzi. It was not Mike and Paloma. They. So long as they were in the same place, they were acting as a couple, not like making out or whatever, but they were in each other's orbit and stuck together in that regard.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And I think part of what's working out for him right now is he's picking scripts, not projects. Like, have you seen the pinball movie he made? No, I love that pinball movie. It's weird as hell. It's his what? Weird Al. That movie was to Daniel Radcliffe. This movie is to Mike Feist.

[B]

Amazing.

[A]

But it's so fascinating. Challengers. Before Zendaya got signed on, who was being like, yeah, the tennis threesome script, that's the one that's gonna change my life. But I think he picked it because he liked the script. And then Zendaya came along because, if I remember correctly, he was signed on before she was.

[B]

I don't know exactly the origins of the movie. All I just know is that it came out and I was with five gay men at the AMC at Lincoln Square, and not a sex scene was to be had, but we were grabbing each other's thighs the entire time out of excitement.

[A]

Although I will say so. I saw it on the very last screening in New York because I just. I had like, a weird battle in my brain of like, do I want to see Mike like this? I was like, nah, we're gonna do it. We're just gonna rip the band aid. He's not Lollipop Guild boy anymore.

[B]

Yeah, do it.

[A]

And so I went to the very final screening in Manhattan and I walked out of it. And I immediately, when people found out I was going to it, sent me like 30 texts being like, I need to know your thoughts. I can't believe you're just now seeing challenges this late in the summer. And the text I sent back to everybody was. It was a good movie, but good God, people are so starved for sex in cinema if they think that this is lewd.

[B]

Oh, it's. It ain't. It ain't lewd. But it was hot.

[A]

Yeah, it was perfectly hot. But, like, it's just. It's wild to me, the way in which people are just like, I can't. I can't believe this was made. And it's like, watch any movie from the 80s.

[B]

I couldn't believe it was made just because it was so bonkers, but not because of the lunatics. I was like, oh, they get away with so much just in terms of choices that they make. But I also feel the same way about Spielberg with this west side Story of just. He got away with casting very few known actors. And, like, the most known actor was not a multi million dollar.

[A]

It was the guy from Baby Driver.

[B]

Exactly. Who, like, his two biggest claims of fames were he was the love interest in Fault in Our Star, which is ultimately what gave him a leading man career. And then Baby Driver and I think the Goldfinch had come out the year that west side Story is being filmed, I think. Or either the year was being filmed or the year before, which was like a disastrous bomb.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

So he, like, he was not a guarantor. The other big name was Rita Moreno.

[A]

Like, Rita was Her. I just. I need to say it. So we've talked about it. The choice to give her somewhere. Little Baby bird heartbreaks, the discord.

[B]

Asked about that, of how we feel about that choice. I like the idea of her singing somewhere. Someone asked, would it make. Would it be more impactful if there was a way to have Tony Maria present for it? Which I understand, because I don't like on a chemical musical level. Maria singing that little bit of tonight as Tony dies. Yeah, I understand that. That's the only. That and One Hand, One Heart are the only things in this version that they sing together. It makes more emotional sense for it to be somewhere else. Part of me is like, well, then, what if instead of going to the Cloisters, she meets him at Valentina's and maybe they do One Hand, One Heart, like in the basement in his home. And. And. And she meets Valentina. They. Or, you know, whatever. They get to interact. And Valentina sings somewhere and. And they're there for it. And it's her little bit of like, I knew I had what you guys are starting to have. And you have to be careful because, like. Like, there's a beauty to being idealistic, but you have to be realistic as well.

[A]

That could have been a really tasty scene.

[B]

Yeah. Because giving her somewhere, like, it's more. The fact that I love the idea of that character singing it and Marita Moreno sells it. Where it happens, where it happens in the movie is not necessarily my fault.

[A]

It is in a weird spot.

[B]

It's in a weird spot. But that also ties into my issues with the third act of this movie, which is that ultimately, with west side Story, like, Romeo and Juliet, it has to be a bit of a runaway train. All of these things are just colliding. Because I will never Forget being in 8th grade English, we were reading Romeo and Juliet, and our teacher was like, what is the ultimate thing to think about of how everyone is acting in this play? I'm like, I don't know. Prejudice. And she's like, stop for a second before you do something. Just. It's epitome of, like, take a night of sleep before you send the angry email, take a minute. Yeah. Of like, just take a minute. Don't go with your immediate impulse, especially when you're young. Because the thing about west side Story. Like what? Like Romeo and Juliet, which is what I understand Sam Gold's current production is trying to emphasize, is like, these are young people. Their brains aren't fully developed. It is the middle of summer. They are hot. They are angry. They are horny. They are not thinking rationally. They're thinking emotionally and chemically. Which boils down to my biggest issue with the screenplay. A screenplay that I think is majority very good, and a lot of changes that I think work. But there is a time like, Kushner is just so smart. He is so smart. He is smarter than I will ever know smart to be. And I think there are times in the screenplay where he thinks to himself. A lot of people have questions about this, about that. I would like to find a way to rationalize it. I'm like, no, don't rationalize it. Don't give Maria the line when she finds. When Tony shows up in her window after killing Bernardo. Like, if I allow. If you give yourself to them, how could I forgive you? Now I have nothing. Like, no, don't say nothing. She's 18. She's just been given traumatic information, and she's. She doesn't know how to process it. She just does something off of impulse. I also don't like that Tony Kushner took out the line where Tony says, bernardo killed Riff.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

He's like, I wasn't thinking. Bernardo stabbed Riff. And I just. And she was like, what?

[A]

Like, there's a difference between stabbed and killed.

[B]

I think he says killed, though. I can't remember. I don't know. I'm going off of a memory of a libretto that I haven't read in a while. Okay. And I'm old, Margaret. I'm old. But he says something along the lines of stabbed or killed, something like that. And that's in the original libretto. And then they sing somewhere, and that leads into them having sex. That's just sort of like, we are young. Heartache to heartache, we stand. And in this version, it's a little. It gave me chills of the Disney remakes of. We need to address the things that online is saying about this.

[A]

Well, okay. That. Absolutely. To me, the contextualization that Kushner was doing worked the best when he was doing it environmentally, like, I loved the signs of, like, Lincoln center coming soon.

[B]

Oh, for sure.

[A]

And, like, that sort of thing, I felt like, worked really, really nicely.

[B]

It also, aesthetically, was nice to watch Enzo Elgort in the final scene. Just, what looked like a Bombtown shelter.

[A]

Yeah. Jesus Christ.

[B]

Yeah. It was a beautiful visual. Weird, too.

[A]

I don't know if this started with Kushner or with Spielberg or a PA That I need to buy a drink, but I love, love, love, love, love the choice to make the rumble. Not underneath the west side highway, but in the salt shed. I think that's so effective. And I cannot not think of this film every time I drive past a salt shed.

[B]

I think both are wonderful places to do it. And I. And I am here for both because they both just are very stark images.

[A]

Oh, for sure. But I think there's something fascinatingly private about the salt shed. Whereas, like, if you're freaking stabbing people underneath the west side highway, someone's watching you, you're not in a private place.

[B]

I mean, yes, it's like it's midnight underneath a highway. I don't think a lot of people are there.

[A]

My lived experience would not agree. But maybe in 1957.

[B]

I mean, I think all those gays are at the Ramble. I don't think they're at.

[A]

I ain't thinking about the gays.

[B]

Who are you thinking about?

[A]

The vampires, homeless and addicts.

[B]

Yeah. I don't know. Would they be there, though?

[A]

Underneath Highways is usually a pretty solid spot.

[B]

Listen, Margaret, the homeless men that I've dated. No, you're. You're right. I think the whole point of it being where it is is that it's supposed to be kind of out of the way.

[A]

Yeah. I also think, just in terms of cinematography, red on white is good.

[B]

Yeah. I also. I love the color palette of the second half of the original movie. I think it adds to the melodrama of it all while still being dark.

[A]

If we're talking about color palette, can we just take a pit stop and talk about Paul Tazewell's costumes?

[B]

Oh, yeah.

[A]

Cause it's so good.

[B]

Well, that is ultimately what saves America for me in this movie, is the color palette of her dress. Of all the dresses of red under the yellow, it's. All those outfits, I think, are very beautiful. The whole thing looks gorgeous. There are times. So when I. The third time I saw it with my mom, who I thought was gonna, like, just be a puddle afterwards, every now and then, she would turn to me and she goes, that's too pretty. Like, there were certain. There were certain shots where she just was like, that's a bit much. And I hear her. I hear her. I think there are times for simplicity and times for gorgeousness. Like, I think the way that. So, okay, I'll put this way. What number do you think is the most successful in this remake?

[A]

Either the Prologue or One Hand, One Heart.

[B]

Interesting. I'm also gonna say either the prologue and a different Tony Maria scene, which is for me tonight.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

I think that the way that Spielberg shoots It. The way it is staged is very effective.

[A]

You definitely. I feel like the entire audience fell in love with Rachel Zegler during tonight.

[B]

Yeah, the. Well, okay. The moment I was like, oh, this girl's gonna be on camera for a long time was when, prior to the dance, when Bernardo and Chino show up and he's talking about, like, they. Our girls make their girls look like, you know, corpses. It's the shot on Rachel staring at him, and she, like. She's looking at him sort of like, for real and. But I'm looking at her going, you're a model.

[A]

See? But also the bit of. From that very same scene. But the moment where I'm like, oh, like, frame this shot. Like, every frame a painting of. After Bernardo and Anita have left, Nina's like, we should go. She's like, one second, and she turns in the mirror and she puts on Anita's lipstick. After Bernardo's left, for sure. And just the, like, look of, like, satisfaction she gives herself, and then she grabs Gino's hand. I'm like, star, star.

[B]

Oh, yeah. Well, the way that she looks in so much of this movie is beautiful. First off, she always looks beautiful.

[A]

Oh, yeah. She's one of those people that glows.

[B]

The way they frame her in the dance, to the gym, when she and Tony connect, there's that. It's a great shot of she. They look at each other. The. She walks away and then turns on that. And the way that the light is behind her and the color scheme of everything, it's an angel. It's a gorgeous shot when she and Ansel are walking towards the bleachers. Someone on the discord also, they. Some person had an issue with it being set behind the bleachers, and I get that. But it ultimately vibes with Spielberg and Kushner being like, nothing takes place in a limbo land. It's all. Yeah, it's all in frame. Everything in frame is.

[A]

I liked their choice to avoid the limbo just because we know what the limbo is. And I also. I liked. It felt very American high school of, like, meeting under the bleachers.

[B]

If you're gonna. If you're gonna make everything happen in real space, that is the absolute correct choice to do. And I think it is shot beautifully. My only. My only concern. I also love that she's the one that goes in for the kiss first.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

My only concern is this is the peck of it all. The beginning movements of the original Robin's Genero choreography is them leaning in and leaning out. Out leaning in and leaning out, and that would have been perfect. Rather than her just starting to dance and Ansel doing the. We're doing this now. I don't like it when musicals, especially one like west side Story, that are ultimately purple on sleeve, commenting on, like, that's weird. Like. No, no.

[A]

In this heartfelt moment that might be one of my favorite moments in all of Robin's choreography is the little hands that they have.

[B]

Yeah, but starting with the lean in.

[A]

Yeah, no, no, the lean ins. Yeah, but no, just. There's something about the way in which they find a rhythm with each other.

[B]

That'S just so that whole thing is beautifully done, but again, it starts with that lean in. And that's Robbins ultimately having ballet and musical theater in his DNA in a way that I don't think it's in Pecks or Spielberg's. I think Spielberg has cinema in his DNA.

[A]

Yeah. Oh, yeah, he has cinema.

[B]

Like, that man knows how to make a movie. And the fact that he is as successful with this movie as he is is, I think, more in large part to the fact of how well he understands filmmaking there. I think if he makes a second musical, I think it'll be even tighter. Because the other thing is that, as I said, there's a lot of air. Part of it is in scene work. I think every scene could be three lines shorter. But that's also Kushner just being like, I've never met a word I didn't know how to turn into prose.

[A]

I love him, though.

[B]

What's not to love? The Man Made Angels in America and Caroline are change. He can drill me with a hack, with a chainsaw anytime he wants. Okay, but what I mean is that for. Whereas Lawrence's libretto is tight, if not necessarily deep, this. This screenplay is deep, but could be a little tighter, which leads into the third act. There's needing to be that Runaway Train, everyone talking.

[A]

And I agree with you that it needs more of that Runaway Train feel. But I can't. Like, I'm sitting here racking my brain. I can't think of something I would want to cut. So I wonder how much of that could also go into just how it's filmed.

[B]

Possibly. Well, that's the other thing. So I'm watching it this fourth time, and in my brain, I'm going, like, so, okay, I also have it written down. The original movie without credits, without overture.

[A]

Yeah, this one's five minutes longer, right?

[B]

Six minutes longer. Oh, how dare you be so close? Because I had to write it down. I was like, how Much longer is this. The original is 2 hours and 21 minutes without credits, without overture. This without credits is 2 hours and 27. It's. That's only 6 minutes. But again, with everything just being. Exactly. It's the idea of what the Chicago movie does. Brilliant. Is that it doesn't allow you a lot of time to ponder post musical number into the next scene. The only time you do is the opening because it's so big and you get a lot happening, but you only really get 3 seconds of blackout before we go into the next scene. Everything else, like the button is the sound effect for the next scene.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

And Spielberg, I think, could take a cue from that because there are some moments where, like. No, no. Go right into the next thing. Keep this train moving.

[A]

It's almost like he was pausing for applause. But you can't do that in a movie.

[B]

Exactly. That's him looking at the 60s and 50s. Like, that's what used to happen. Like, we're not there anymore. We're really not. Let. Keep it moving. Especially because that final Maria monologue in the third act should be longer. If there's one thing that Natalie Wood nails in the original, it's the how many bullets Monologue.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

And it's because Robert Wise, the director, allows her to take her time. And it's a. And it's rushed in this film.

[A]

Film.

[B]

It's also rewritten. And I don't think I. I think.

[A]

That'S the one thing we could have left for Lawrence.

[B]

Absolutely. Because Kushner does a good job. That's the one monologue that Lawrence just absolutely nails.

[A]

It's his one bit of lightning in a bottle.

[B]

Yes. And it's. And to allow Zegler to nail that scene and give her the space to nail it might have ultimately given her that Oscar nomination because it's. It's. It's a shame in a movie where.

[A]

She needed to stick the landing.

[B]

Yeah. In a movie where there's so much that is right. And any notes I have are mostly just tightening the screws and maybe, you know, giving Ansel a better take. I think where I do think this movie truly does fumble is in the last 10 minutes. It's not upsettingly bad. It's just there are things where I'm like, we're better than this. Like, there's a shot when. When Moreno tells Ansel Maria is dead. Listen, maybe that is the best shot, the best take they got of Ansel being like, what? But then I'm like, it is. He makes some weird faces And I'm like, Spielberg.

[A]

He's not crying, right?

[B]

Yeah. Cut around, Cut around and tighten it up. And then you're lingering on him too much in this debris, shouting for Chino. And I get it. It's weird to be shouting into the void to be murdered. What do you do with your hands when you're asking to be killed?

[A]

But even speaking of Chino and the idea of a naturalistic response to things, Chino in this film is so much more interesting than she has ever been. And I don't think it's any mistake that now Rachel and the actor who played Chino have been, like, together since making this film.

[B]

Yeah. I don't.

[A]

Maria picked Chino in the end.

[B]

I'm not gonna spill too much tea. There was a lot of banging on that set.

[A]

Oh, it's a bunch of young fit dancers. That happens on every single production in which young fit dancers are.

[B]

Yes. You're. You've never been hotter. You've never been more employed.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And you're in a thing. And that was also a set where it was absolutely encouraged for everyone to lean into their hormones. There may be a Broadway show happening right now where it's also being encouraged for everyone backstage to be leaning into their hormones in a toxic way. Not that in west side Story it was toxic. It's toxic on this Broadway show. But on west side Story, it was very much encouraged. You're young, you're hot, and this is the thing. Like, everybody bang it out. So there were some relationships that were formed after this. There may have been some marriages that ended because of this movie. Just saying. And you can see a lot of that heat on screen. Like, I think everyone has really good chemistry. I think even Ansel and Rachel have good chemistry where I think it's all.

[A]

About the eyes for me.

[B]

I get that. I get that. I think that's why, for me, tonight is the best one, because it's a constant. It's a good use of. It's a good use of Ansel because he has shot well. And Spielberg keeps them apart for a lot of it. And then when they get together at the end, it's not carnal passion, which I would prefer, but it is. It is a nice, tender moment.

[A]

Yeah. There is a tenderness to it. And I do like the way in which he just sort of like, hangs there off her balcony or like, you crazy motherfucker.

[B]

Yeah. Well. And again, a good use of him is in the same way that there may be a Tony winning actor when he had a performance in the Early Autumn where I said that was a good use of him. Watching Rachel react to him in certain moments. Makes that scene like the end when she says, wait. And he pulls back up looking like a pretty empty amber crompy and fish model. And she just looks at me. She goes, I forgot why I called you. Like, that's a great moment.

[A]

That was good.

[B]

Yeah. And they linger on her. Again, it's that when Ansel is used best, it is when he. When they allow him to do the But I found you and let him be a himbo. Yeah. When cool works, it is when the cinematography and the music take over and Mike is sort of at the center. I like how that song is used in the narrative of this film and it actually gives Tony more.

[A]

Yeah, I think the movement makes the song make more sense in the long run.

[B]

There's. I don't dislike the choreography of that song completely. I don't like it at the end with Mike. And there's one moment. Oh, there's one more where there were two of them were potted doing off of like wood. Where I'm like, that's odd. But again, part of me is going, is that the choreographer. Is that how that Ansel is just like, body's weird on it? I don't know. I don't know. But I do think it works in the film. I think it has to be there or it has to be where it is in the original. Something that Lauren said about the original. And then we got to take another break because then I got to change out the bat.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

Lawrence hated the reversal of cool MG Officer Krupke in the original. He's like, it has to be where it is in the script because you need that break in. There's a violence to it. I went, absolutely not Arthur. At that point in the story, in a movie, if after we have two fucking dead bodies and we're now going to go into G Officer Krupke, audiences would laugh you out of America.

[A]

Yep.

[B]

He is so wrong about it. I'm glad he's dead. Kill him. Kill him. Again with fire.

[A]

Oh, boy.

[B]

But. But I'm glad. I think where they moved cool in this movie is also works. It adds another tension and it gives us some more not depth, but another facet to Tony.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

You see him. You see shades of him being a former Jet here.

[A]

Oh, for sure.

[B]

Yeah. And that connection to Riff. I don't love the final shot of Ansel, the tear down his face. I'm like.

[A]

That was a bit hopeful.

[B]

I'm like, Steve, there are three hats in this room. They're all on each other. Take one off.

[A]

Yep.

[B]

Let's remove that hat and take one last break.

[A]

Billy, I beg to differ with you.

[B]

How do you mean?

[A]

You're the top.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

You're an arrow collar. You're the top.

[B]

And we're back. You actually said something right before I said that. That is very true about COVID Like world was ending. Everybody was making choices they weren't thinking through. Talk about west side Story. Am I right? Thinking. Not always thinking through your choices. Just like going off of impulse. Also, I want to ask you this. In musicals, can you think of love at first sight? Stories about people that are in comfortable financial situations? Because I'm thinking of these sort of we locked eyes and everything sort of tumbled from there. Like Carousel or West side Story about.

[A]

People who are below middle class to be in a stable place.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Okay. I mean, the first thing that came into my mind was Rodgers and Hammerstein's Cinderella.

[B]

Oh.

[A]

And like he's very much in a stable position and she is not.

[B]

Yeah. But that's more kind of. That's fairy tale I'm trying to think of.

[A]

Oh, okay.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Like realism, grounded.

[B]

Yay. Yay. I can't really think of any.

[A]

Honestly. Like, there's not the closest that's coming to my brain. And we don't see it. It's talked about it. But the enchanted evening that is discussed in South Pacific.

[B]

Totally. Totally. I can't imagine they talk about. Yeah. How they met.

[A]

It's like across a crowded room.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And somehow, you know. You know, even then.

[B]

Yeah. That seems more like one sided of Emile knowing. I feel like it takes Nellie the rest of that scene to figure it out.

[A]

I'd argue that that's kind of the case for all of. Of these though is it's. The guy falls hard and then the girl is like interested but wary.

[B]

I think.

[A]

Well, I think there's very few where. Unless they're like making a point about it where the girl is like 150% maybe big fish.

[B]

I can't tell you a single thing about that show. And I said opening night, the. The thing about love at first sight. But we were talking about this about and how this movie really does emphasize it. It's not necessarily I'm in love so much as it's a chemical. Who are you? There's something here.

[A]

And it happened. Like it's one of those things that until it happens to you, you're like, oh, that's goofy. And then it happened you're like, oh, my God, what the hell?

[B]

Not everyone experiences it. Listen. Podmother Ali Gordon had love at first sight with her now husband. And it was like a chemical thing. But because they had to spend a week filming something together, they got to know each other very quickly, and it was justified for them. And I think with this west side Story, it is chemical. There is something pulling them together. And then ultimately, the more they get to know each other, the more it sort of justifies for them being with each other. They don't. They don't know, like, each other's allergies and dislikes, but just sort of who you fundamentally are as a person.

[A]

Your soul stuff.

[B]

Yeah. Your attitude. The one thing that Kushner does about their having the date. Because all people are like, oh, I love that they have a date. They get to know each other better. I'm like, they, technically speaking, have a date in the libretto where they. Where he meets her at the. At the dress store.

[A]

They're just not the same.

[B]

It's not the same.

[A]

They're not speaking of the dress store.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

I feel pretty.

[B]

How do you feel about it being at Gimbels? Fine. I don't. I don't view it as the, like, revelatory, oh, they fixed the number that Zegler claimed in her interviews or that Sondheim was like, oh, they made it so I don't kill myself now. I watched. I was like, yeah, totally. It works.

[A]

I think it's fully functional. I've never agreed with Steve being like, I hate that song. I don't agree with it.

[B]

I understand where he's coming from. He is such a drama. He was such a dramaturgical writer. He was so big on. I need this to make sense for the character. I think that it is. That song is probably the closest to, like, Andrew Lloyd Webber chemical reality that he will ever get in terms of, like, sure, maybe it doesn't make dramaturgical sense for her to be this witty, but on a chemical level, I love it. And don't ask me to talk about it any further in the same way where I talk. This is my example I talked about in the Jekyll and Hyde episode. I cannot tell you dramaturgically why the sound for angel of Music then goes into the 80s synth of the title song of Phantom of the Opera. All I know is that, chemically speaking, it fits in my brain.

[A]

Fair. You keep giving me these mental images.

[B]

I'm a painter at heart. I just can't.

[A]

You really are. You are my George Surratt. Oh, my God. I think there could be a really interesting. And you'd have to really fuss with the rights. You'd have to really, like, have conversations with the States.

[B]

Well, Eva Van Hoff is canceled now, so take his. Take a spot. Put that man out to sea. I'm so done with him.

[A]

We don't have time. But I would be interested because one of the things I also really liked about Kushner's screenplay is the ways in which it gave Anita and Bernardo a life.

[B]

Sure.

[A]

Of like, he's got this whole boxing career. She's become this, like, seamstress, tailor, dress designer. What if I feel pretty was her and Anita. And we have this moment of somehow her and Anita coming together with, like, almost just like a bookend to a boy, like that of Anita thinks she's helping Maria, like, get a dress picked out for Chino. Maria is, like, picking it out for something. With Tony. We would have to. We would have to summon Sondheim's ghost to get the estate to agree to this is never gonna happen. But that would be interesting and make it dramaturgically land.

[B]

Well, I think that's very smart. Well, so again, in the original movie, they do move. I feel pretty to both before the.

[A]

Rumble, which I don't like.

[B]

I think that it helps sometimes. It helps the momentum of the third act of that original movie to just get to the finish line of just. We can't. No more distractions. Let's just. Here we go. And they do give her, like, the I feel pretty spot of her dancing on the roof. So it's the, like, calm before the storm. It's the clambake, as I always like to say. But I think that another thing that this movie kind of fumbles a little bit is the Anita Maria story, because they have the connection that we always establish. But they remove Anita knowing about Maria and Tony.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Where she. She turns a blind eye because she sees that her almost sister in law is happy. She thinks nothing of it. He seems like a nice enough girl.

[A]

And she's fully bought into, like, the idea, like, America's not all bad.

[B]

Exactly. This guy seems to like her. He. He seems, okay, I'm gonna turn a blind eye, whatever. And then to see that after learning about what happened with Bernardo Maria. But does the ultimate betrayal. Like I gave. Like I gave you this leniency, and you go and do this. Yeah, fuck you. It doesn't land as well for me in this version. I also think, again, talk. This is a case where I think It's a little too pretty. The first shot of a boy like that of the reflection. It's a good shot. The color scheme is too flowery. And I. You can make an argument of. But the contrast of the. This terrible thing's happening in this beautiful setting. I'm like, this is where you have to have musical theater in your bones. Of the color scheme has to start to get darker.

[A]

Now we can't buy it. I would have liked it more if it had been like a deconstruction of again like if like we stitched. I feel pretty really into a boy like that. And it's somehow like I do like that idea. I'm like seeing like a way in which it works.

[B]

And Anita is the friends being like, have you met my good friend Maria? Yeah. Have it just be the two of them. I don't care. Those other shark girls don't do anything.

[A]

You really have to get the estate to sign off. This is not something you can do. But if you got them to let you. I. And also specifically there'd be something so interesting in the idea of like how they had all of like these like beautiful fabrics in this film that are like hung up. That then get ripped down by Anita. Like, no, we're not doing the dream anymore.

[B]

Chasing her through all of it and ripping it apart. That would be awesome. I would love that very much. I there. There's also that final shot in this version of. Of the you're love. And they look out like Lassie. I don't like that shot. Again, it's. What it's this thing where like I think 90% of this movie is very good to fucking awesome. And the 10%, it's not in chunks. It's just sprinkled. Yeah. And I'm just like, can we go back to the. And it's not even 10% that that's bad. It's 10%. Like this isn't as good.

[A]

And I. I honestly wonder how much of it is. And again, I'm talking about like the weird fugue state of Post Covid.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

There's something to be said about the fact that he worked on this movie for almost a decade and had this giant thing happen in between the filming and the editing of like. Yeah. He still is working with the same footage but he's going to be approaching it slightly differently. I would be really interested to know what the film would have looked like if he'd been able to do reshoots in the way he originally intended.

[B]

Yeah. And didn't have basically Two years to just edit it all the time.

[A]

Yeah. And just to fixate.

[B]

Yeah. Because that's something that even the best artists have problems with. Sondheim has gone back and made changes to shows that I think make them worse sometimes.

[A]

They're perfect, though.

[B]

What changes do you think are perfect?

[A]

Assassins 2004 is perfect.

[B]

Oh, the Mantella revival. Well, absolutely. Well, they added something just broke in London and then just made it.

[A]

Yes, but like, that's an addition and people fight about it. I think it makes the show.

[B]

I am on mic at some point on this series saying that. I think that makes that show fit. Maybe. Maybe it was the American Psycho episode. I can't remember.

[A]

Maybe as someone who has written a thesis about Assassin.

[B]

No, it's the South Frank episode.

[A]

Oh, what? How you get.

[B]

Okay, don't ask questions.

[A]

But as someone who has written a thesis about assassins, as someone who fought bitterly with the man himself about the show, I have many thoughts of Assassins and I think that is one of the best post opening additions ever made to a musical.

[B]

1,000%. And yeah, people do argue about it, but I think they argue about it dramaturgically. And I'm like, I'm sorry, on a chemical level.

[A]

No. But also dramaturgically, it's what makes sense. I will send you my fucking thesis where I yell about it.

[B]

No, what I'm saying is that I think there can be a debate dramaturgically. I'm on the dramaturgical side of. I need some outside perspective after all of this. And I need to. We as an audience also, but this is also chemical. We need a moment to recognize the impact of these actions. It's all, it's all been insular and ultimately something just broke is what cancels out that one woman's yelling at them at Playwrights Horizons of you are endorsing these actions. I'm like, no, that song is telling you we are aware of all the things that happens here, but this is.

[A]

This is how we get here.

[B]

Exactly.

[A]

The other thing I just will also flag in terms of adjustments post opening, the sheer number of people that will, like, work a project for the act of working rather than because of the project needs it. It's always captivating to me when we get fifth or sixth editions. So I, I and Logan Coldwell Block, one of the other writers at Playbill is. We are the ones who talk the most to like Licensees and Concord and MTI and those folks. And when we get like fifth or sixth editions of shows, I at least will read through them. And it is very rare that I'm like, this warranted a new addition. I want to know. And I don't think there's any way we would ever actually be able to know this, but I would love to, like, hop in a time machine to 2019, final day of principal photography for this film. I want to know what the film was in Spielberg's head on that final day. Before you even, like, looked at anything more than dailies. You just finished shooting it. Because there's something that happens when you get myopic with looking at it, and that's, like, when we get, like, new estates of plays where all that's happened is they've, like, changed where a couple commas are. But that Dinner takes an entirely new license versus, like, to me, something just broke as a very, like, intentional, thoughtful adjustment and additional versus, like, how many shows have both of us seen where it's a revival that claims to fix the show and all it does is mess with it?

[B]

Any revival, Revisal, as they like to be called, or, sorry, they don't want to be called, we call them Revisals. Any Revisal that has ever said we are aiming to fix this or some version of that has always failed.

[A]

To me, the only one that worked was Flower Drum Song, and that's because.

[B]

It'S almost an entirely new show for me. It's the first iteration of Hal Princess Candide.

[A]

Oh, that. That's a good pull, too. Also, the Hal Prince, Porgy and Bess that finally reinstated everything.

[B]

But also the Hal Prince Candide is not without its detractors.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

People who miss the original.

[A]

And that's the thing where I think a lot of the people who detract from something just broken. Assassins. It's not actually because of the song Something just broke. It's because that's not the version they have in their head.

[B]

Well, and so with Something Just Broke, correct me if I'm wrong, that came about because Sam Mendes directed it at the Donmar, and it was a year or two after Playwrights, And I don't know if Weidman and Sondheim are like, we need this, or if Mendes looked at material and he said, we need one more thing here.

[A]

Sam asked for it.

[B]

I think that makes a lot of sense.

[A]

And also, Sam and is a smart man.

[B]

He is. And listen, he doesn't bat a thousand, but he is smart. He knows a lot of what he's doing. He has good intentions. He has good instincts. The original Donmar Cabaret, you see, the prototype of what it would become on Broadway. And, like, we don't get what we get on Broadway without what Sam originally did, but we also don't get it without Rob Marshall story for another day.

[A]

And also Sam Mendes. I really love his work for many reasons. The Ferryman is one of my favorite directorial jobs ever in Broadway history. But specifically, what I think his, like, superpower is, is I think he's an incredibly good collaborator.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And I think he's really good at listening and taking in and combining.

[B]

And I. But so with something like Assassins, similar to Hal Prince with Candide, similar to, let's say, David Henry Huang with Flower Drum Song of not being in the thick of the creation of this thing, coming at it, seeing everything that's there and going, I have an idea of how we can make this better. I'm not trying to necessarily fix it so much as, like, I think there's so much here, and I want to make people see what I see about it.

[A]

What show is it? Your darling, you can decide what is dear.

[B]

So Hal. There you go with Hal Prince of Candide. He's like, this is. It's a silly show. It needs. The music is silly, the original story is silly, and the original story is slight. So we got it for 100 minutes. Bing, bang, boom. Yep. David Henry Huang is like, I understand where Oscar Hammerstein was coming from in 1959, but he was coming from this at 1959, and he was white. So let's take that intention, add what I know, and bring that with a modern sensibility and give it the cheek that it deserves. You can't do fan tan fanny. Seriously.

[A]

No, it's got. It's gotta be done with a wink and a tongue buried in a cheek.

[B]

Yep. Yep. It's also the last time Robert Longbottom did strong work as a director choreographer, in my humble opinion. I think his work on the original sideshow is fucking awesome. And I think that his Flower Drum song has a lot of ties to that. But then we get into Bye Bye Birdie. We get into his Dream Girls, and I'm like, my love, I. I feel like Emma Carew being like once upon a dream. Talk about a show that keeps getting revised and you're just shuffling the chairs on the Titanic.

[A]

Guys, come on.

[B]

Yeah, stop. Stop changing the wallpaper. The floor is sinking. I do wonder, like, if, as you said, if Spielberg was able to do his reshoots or the reshoots he wanted.

[A]

Or the initial reshoots he felt were necessary instead of staring at until his.

[B]

Eyes go cross Exactly. And then, yeah. Spending two years in post production, what could have happened? I think. I think a lot of things could have happened. I ultimately, I mean, for all we.

[A]

Know, it could have been worse.

[B]

I just. It could have been. I just, I. I don't have a lot of major overhauls I want to make with this movie. So much as I want to go in with him and be like, can we go through the entire thing and cut five seconds out of every scene and five seconds out of every transition? Just shave off five minutes.

[A]

Except please don't touch one of the most perfect shots of his entire career. The intro into Dance at the Gym.

[B]

Why would you touch that?

[A]

That's a transition.

[B]

No, it's not a transition. That's an opening establishing shot.

[A]

It's perfect.

[B]

I'm talking. Once the number's over and you have five seconds of dead air. That's what I'm talking about. Yes, yes.

[A]

But it's like, that's a scene transition and it's perfect.

[B]

No, that's. That fucking shot. I'm not gonna touch with a 90 foot pole. Not one fucking bit. Are you kidding me?

[A]

No.

[B]

If I can make changes to the choreography, we can go in and we can just do some trims here and.

[A]

There could have been 30 seconds shorter.

[B]

And also, like, every now and then, maybe we don't cut to Ansel. We cut to Moreno or Zegler.

[A]

Please.

[B]

Just not even for. On a political level. Just like, he doesn't have. He has some. There are some shots. There are some shots of Ansel that I think are good. He has some line readings that I like, I'll always come back to. But I found you. I just think it's good. But every now and then I'm like, he doesn't have the depth. There are times where Rachel doesn't have the depth. She's 18. She can't barely.

[A]

18.

[B]

Yeah. So, like, just moments from, like, let's cut to someone else's reaction. Cut to Chino's reaction to her monologue. Every now and then we have a couple and he. When we do, they're so fucking good.

[A]

And you can like. There's a moment in the dance that I'm like, this was not choreographed by Justin Fest. This is just happening. Yeah, because it's just Maria and Shino having, like a brief moment. Oh, this is actually gonna work. Yeah, they're having a really good time.

[B]

She starts dancing. Yeah.

[A]

And I'm like, I feel like that can't be choreographed. I feel like that had been like, I'm gonna make Rachel laugh.

[B]

It could be. It could be.

[A]

It feels too real.

[B]

It's also nice to see her partaking and watching Tony watch her in her. Not in her element. Like, she's. She's just enjoying and being a part of it for once. I like that she gets to join for a second. And that is ultimately what. What he sees. It's not that she's the only one not dancing. It's not that she's the one in white. There's a joy. Yeah. Yeah. It's a good shot of her. I do wish, though, in that moment we had a better shot of her clocking him because it's a little too far away. But again, maybe that is something that could have been picked up in post. I don't know. It's one of those moments. And also because I like. I also. This is me being chemical of. I wish that they clocked each other or she clocked him on the. I can't sing it right now. It's the word. The orchestra scales down, but it's that when the orchestra goes all the way down, that's when I wanted her to clock him. Because if I were to stage it on stage.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And they're like, you are. They say, you cannot do the Robin's generic choreography. You have to come up with your own dumb choreo. I would have the whole number build where Tony and Maria are a part of it, but they are never close to each other. And the entire number is them slowly getting closer to each other. And we as an audience aren't even realizing it because Anita is popping off, Bernardo doing his thing. And then by the last 30 seconds before they get to each other, we realize, oh, shit. Like, they are snaking towards each other, but their backs are towards each other. And there's a moment where everybody's turning to each other like, flip, flip, flip. And then they flip and they see each other, and then they are just, boom, locked in. I need to find the exact moment in the music because it's.

[A]

I also should watch the Jerome Robbins Broadway Tony performance.

[B]

That is an amazing Tony performance. And you get to see Charlotte d' Noise kick her face as Anita. She would never play that role anywhere else, but we at least get to see her as Anita. And. And. And she is. She is dancing for the gods. And you get to see in an actual, professionally filmed version of that choreo, what it's supposed to look like.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Because the 09 revival, the one thing in their Tony performance that I will give credit to is that the Grazzi and the Riff are dancing for Jesus.

[A]

They are. Oh, my God, they are.

[B]

And I remember the message boards actually being angry because they were like, the jets aren't supposed to win that. That. That mambo. It's supposed to be Anita like, but. But Ko can't dance it well enough. So they're. So you're watching Grazzi fucking slide across the floor and jump up to heaven.

[A]

I also think for that Tony performance, they had some adrenaline going. So they were going a little higher than they even would normally.

[B]

For sure. For sure. I need to find a moment. It's okay. So they're slowly snaking towards each other.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

They don't notice it. Their backs towards each other. Flip, flip. Someone twirls Tony to the center. Someone trolls Maria to the center. They're dancing and everyone goes back to each other. And then Flip flips each other. And they just stand stock still as everyone else starts dancing around them. And they're just standing there the entire time while everyone else is moving around and moving. Okay, that's. That's where I want them. That's where I want them to clock each other.

[A]

I like that.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

I also love the extended trumpet solo that they gave for this orchestration.

[B]

The orchestra in this movie sounds incredible.

[A]

Did so good.

[B]

So good. This is there. We are very blessed to have quite a few recordings of west side Story that are all worth listening to. OBC has the fiery messiness, like it was recorded fast. That. Or when you listen to Future record a later recording, that orchestra sounds messy, but it's hot. The movie sounds good. Betty Wan is, I think, the wrong choice to dub Moreno on a boy like that. But that's okay. I think everyone else is actually dubbed quite nicely. I really love this soundtrack.

[A]

It's really, really good.

[B]

And I will also say I think Ansel sounds good. He's not. He's not. He's not operatic. I think he sounds best on Maria, weirdly enough. Which is because there's something croonery about him. It's almost like, oh, what if a young Frank Sinatra plays this role like a 20 year old Frank. He's not the vocally best Tony, but there is a. There's a. There's first of all a youthful energy to this whole cast that is nice. And there is a musicality to his Tony like. But it's also. Rachel is the best song Maria on record. She sounds perfect.

[A]

She. She is perfect. I'm trying to look it up there. So I never listen to the Ansel tracks. They just. His is not the voice of Tony for me.

[B]

You like Matt Kavanaugh?

[A]

Yes, I listened to that one.

[B]

How did I know? Because he popped up to the bee.

[A]

Because he pops up to the beat. But also he has like. So I'm really big on the color of voices and it's like, yeah, you're hitting the note, but are you giving like the tone that I want?

[B]

For sure.

[A]

And he has the tone that I want throughout the entire song of. He just sounds lover boy to me.

[B]

I think I would have loved to have seen young Jeremy Jordan in that production because Jeremy Jordan at that stage of his career when he was. Is still young and had something to prove. I feel like is kind of perfect for that role because he has lover boy energy, but also like roughness and sings with. Sings with heat, which is what you need.

[A]

Yeah. And in talking about Tony's though, I wanted to bring this to you because I went and I looked through the Playbill archives when I came here and at some point in like 2017 or 18, we put out a poll to our readers of like, who do you want to play the main roles in this film? Because we've all been waiting for it for so long. And Nancy and I'm gonna tell you the top three dreamcasts for Tony. If you were having to recast the role of Tony in the sim. Because I think we are in agreement that if we have to change one.

[B]

Of the principles, it's him.

[A]

Yes, for sure. So the three that were fan cast, none of them should have done this. I'm glad it was not them. They were all too old, but they were the most put forward. One of them is gonna really make you laugh. The first one was Jeremy Jordan, who I legitimately think was perfect for the role. He was too old by the time.

[B]

They made this film. If. If 09 or 2010, Jeremy Jordan did it. Yes, but not. But not 2019.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

No, not a 37 year old Tony to an 18 year old Maria.

[A]

Good God.

[B]

This isn't Lolita, folks.

[A]

Yeah, Lolita, my love. The second one was Aaron Tveit, who again, I think could be an interesting. Tony was too old already.

[B]

He would have had the opposite problem of Ansel. For me, I bought. I would have bought Loverboy. I would not have bought gang member.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

He's so clean.

[A]

You wanna know who's even cleaner?

[B]

Who?

[A]

Derek Klena.

[B]

Everyone I know who saw in Moulin Rouge said he slayed.

[A]

I. I did not see him in Moulin Rouge. The thing that I Would. Kept going to. When I was, like, looking at this option, being like. Like. Because I tried to legitimately picture each of them.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

I was thinking about Dog Fight because I feel like there is a world which, like, Dog Fight is kind of connected to the. Like that for sure. Like, Eddie and Tony share some DNA. But I think I like my Tonys to be a bit more like. What's like the word. I like a Tony that feels like he's more in love with Maria than Maria is with him. And that is not a slight on Maria's love. That is a statement for how much of, like, he's just a simp.

[B]

Oh, yeah. Do you ever watch Malcolm in the Middle?

[A]

No.

[B]

But you're aware of her.

[A]

I knew it. We didn't have cable growing up.

[B]

The parents are Jane Kaczmarek and Bryan Cranston. And there's an episode, I want to say, like, season five or season six, where they're talking about, like, basically who wanting to go first in terms of death and stuff like that. And. And Bryan Cranston is just being so, like, attentive towards her and all this stuff, and she's freaking out and he's like, what's your problem? She was like. She goes, I just. I worry. She's like, I love you so much. I worry that you love me more than I love you. And there's a beat. He goes, oh, I knew that. He's like. I've always known that. He's like. He's like, I know how much you love me. He's like, I like. But it's not comparable at all to how much I love you. And so I think that's. That's absolutely true. Like, I think Maria totally loves Tony.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Tony loves her more. It's not that she's any in danger of falling out of love. It's just. It's a testament to how much.

[A]

It's a testament to how much he loves her. And I think it also speaks to the reason why the ending is different in this than it is in Romeo and Juliet. He. If. If Maria had been killed by a stray bullet from Gino, I don't think Tony would have hesitated to have immediately kill himself.

[B]

Absolutely.

[A]

Maria does not.

[B]

She has a moment and then she ultimately can't do it. She is. It's more that she is stronger than Tony.

[A]

And I think she has a sense of who she is outside of Tony.

[B]

Yeah. Because strength doesn't come from how violent you are towards other people. It's how much you can hold up on your own.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

And that's ultimately what we see. The. I wish I had seen the Van Hove production, not because I like Van Hove. We've discussed this already. I'm so thrilled. He hasn't stepped foot in New York in a minute, thank God. But what everyone had said was that Isaac Powell, I've heard he was one of the best Tony they had seen. And there's footage of him on Aurora, Spider Woman doing Maria, and he's great. And I wanted to see the rest of that performance because what they said was he found the connection between gang member and lover.

[A]

I wonder if he wasn't allowed to audition for the film.

[B]

Probably wasn't. I think he's. I don't think he's also classically white, presenting enough. Like, I. I think in that and those. In the movie that Spielberg and Kushner were making, it was important to have jets who looked like that.

[A]

Yes. But I'm just gonna flag this very briefly. We don't have time to get into the dramaturgy of this.

[B]

You don't? I do.

[A]

I. I am intrigued by Kushner's choice to make the jets just General White, whereas originally they were very explicitly. There's a difference between the Irish. There's a difference between the Italians. There's a difference between the Poles.

[B]

Oh, absolutely. Yeah.

[A]

And, like, the choice of the name, like, the fact that Krupke's name is Krupke and Shrank's name is Shrank, that might not read as something to someone in the 21st century who doesn't like neurolinguistics. Those are very heavily coded German and Czech last names. And I, I. There's something like. Because, like, this version does not completely abandon it. There's, like, the whole bit of, like, everything that they're, like, tearing Puerto Rican stuff down is revealing Irish stuff.

[B]

Mm.

[A]

And yet Anton is now Polish.

[B]

He's always been Italian.

[A]

Wasn't he Italian?

[B]

No, he was Anton in the Seychelles.

[A]

I thought he was Tony Italian. Anthony.

[B]

No, no, no, no. Anton.

[A]

My brain did a math.

[B]

Teodor. Anton is from the original. He has been Polish. But that thing is, he's Polish. I would imagine the rest of the jets are supposed to be as well.

[A]

And I always thought that the jets were supposed to be Irish Italian.

[B]

No, they were. They were supposed to be Irish Catholic in Eastside Story.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And then I. And then they became Polish in West side Story.

[A]

Okay, interesting. I had a different sub narrative going on in my brain then.

[B]

Well, I think you were just combining five different truths in your post Covid haze, everything you're saying is true. Just a little separately from each other. No, they're Polish in the stage show. And I agree. But I agree with you. There's a little bit of mixing of that whiteness in the remake of Polish with Irish. With all of this stuff. Like, when Riff buys the gun from the pub owner, he's like, you remind me of your da.

[A]

I was like, so Riff's Irish?

[B]

I guess Riff's Irish.

[A]

I guess he is now.

[B]

Yeah. I mean, I would buy that from.

[A]

Mike, but, yeah, I would. Absolutely. For the Feist. With a last name like Feist.

[B]

Yeah. Listen, I would also buy him as German, but.

[A]

But also, it also is just, like, an accepted thing in the 21st century that people can't tell white people apart as much.

[B]

But I think that is why it would have been nice to have that Anita line from the libretto of Tony's parents immigrated from Poland. Tony was born in America. That makes him an American in the Jet's eyes. It's like, you were born here. You're from here in general.

[A]

Like, and this is even. Even just a Wessex story thing. I just want more art to debate the idea of nativism.

[B]

Sure.

[A]

It's like. I think it's a thing like, we're getting sort of this interesting arc of art that is looking at a lot of isms within the United States. But I feel like nativism is one that hasn't been fully interrogated yet.

[B]

No, not. Not in a way that I think audiences will find compelling. The few pieces that I have seen in the last couple of years have been a little too. I'm teaching you.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And I'm like, can you kindly go fuck yourself?

[A]

There's just something fascinating, too, because, I mean, like, even just getting into, like, people can't tell white people apart the way that they used to.

[B]

Like, if I, like, say that one more time. People can't tell white people apart the way that they used to. I think that's an amazing line.

[A]

No, it's all. People told my grandfather when he became a surgeon that he needed to change his last name from Crawford because they wouldn't trust an Irish dog doctor.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Like, that's very much a thing. No one is looking at my mother being like, Cindy Crawford, Irish lady.

[B]

But also, like. But it used to be you had to change your last name so it didn't sound Jewish.

[A]

Yeah. Like, there's so many bagel.

[B]

Yes. Jenna Moroney likes to say, we. We. I think my generation was the last generation to Change their Jewish last names to something more. Like we have a couple of people, maybe last names of Aston and whatnot. That used to be things like Lipstein, Bergen. They used to be Rosenberg, which there's no shame in it. You do what you want to need to do or want to do, but survival comes first. Yeah, but I think we're kind of in a more open space of like. No, like keep the name you got. Who cares? Like.

[A]

But it just, just I. In general, I'm sort of not fascinated in a good way, but fascinated academically.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

In the way in which the moving target of whiteness exists within this country. And I feel like Kushner got so close to including that in this version that I'm like, give me a. Come on.

[B]

Yeah, well, I think.

[A]

I know you can do it.

[B]

I think that's the. The really tricky thing of juggling so many balls in so little time. And in a musical you really have to have a specific target that you then expand from.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And it's. He got away with so much in Angels in America part one and two, mostly because there was just so much time.

[A]

Yeah, he could do it.

[B]

Yeah, you could, Billy.

[A]

I beg to differ with you.

[B]

How do you mean?

[A]

You're the top.

[B]

You're under.

[A]

You're an arrow caller. You're the top. You're a Coolidge dollar. You're the nimble tread of the feet. Maybe this is my pitching to Tony in the ether that this is what I want his next play to be. Although I. And the last thing I would flag for this before we leave this sidebar. Yeah, is it. It does make me laugh a little bit that Brian Darcy James, one of the most. To me Irish looking men. He looks like every single one of my uncles is playing Grupp Key and I'm like, would. I don't think that casting could have happened in 57 because I think people would have clocked that. He does not look Czech.

[B]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[A]

I think he was great in this though. I loved him.

[B]

If this is a very well cast movie when Ansel is the weakest link and he is not a 4 out of 10 in a movie musical these days.

[A]

That's fair.

[B]

I consider think about the movie musicals we've had in the last 20 years where like the worst performance is a genuine 0 out of 10.

[A]

A lot of them.

[B]

Yeah, yeah.

[A]

But then we have movies like in the Heights that I feel like are very, very, very good, but they just got paid dust.

[B]

I have issues within the Heights.

[A]

That's fair.

[B]

I Think it is. I think it is very well cast.

[A]

Yeah. It's like when I'm thinking of the cast of that there's no one I would pull out as the weak one.

[B]

No, my. I think my weakest person in the movie is Nina. But I ultimately blame that on the screenplay which took away all of her best stuff and gave it to Vanessa.

[A]

Some of it. This is another podcast episode outside Outside.

[B]

Of Breathe, which is a great song, but like I a lot of her.

[A]

Stuff, I, I, I was heartbroken that they cut everything I know because that's one of the most.

[B]

And cut her argument and gave her argument with Benny during blackout to Vanessa and and just took out all this self doubt about her about her being a now small fish in a big pond and became all about outside racism. Like, well, no, now it's everyone else's problem, not hers. It's. The libretto to in the Heights is not perfect, but it's better than the screenplay. And I will say that till the day I'm dead. Okay, moving on. But it is a very well cast movie and I think the opening number and 96,000 are two of the best numbers put on cinema. Put on cinema. Put in cinema in years, not since Oompapa have I been like, work bitch. We can't talk about her. We have an episode about that already.

[A]

Listen to our Oliver episode.

[B]

There's literally 20 minutes where Margaret and I are just like, you want to know one of the best adapted numbers of all time on film is perfect. Take that, dumbass welcome back from the bathroom song and make it work plot wise.

[A]

Make it cinema.

[B]

Boom, bitch. What is a number that you. Okay, so what would you say is the least successful number in this movie?

[A]

In this movie?

[B]

Yes.

[A]

And why for me, it's. Something's coming.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Because I just, I, I just, I don't buy Ansel in this film. And I feel like that's the song that's supposed to make you fall in love with Tony and it did not work for me.

[B]

If you were to replace Ansel with a more emotional actor, do you think how Spielberg and Kushner do that scene would work better for you potentially? Okay, Okay. I think that Tony, again, Tony has always been a very troublesome role.

[A]

But just that song in particular, I think is such a charm song that if you do not charm me, it cannot work.

[B]

It's in a stage show. I never buy it because he's just so vague. His like, reason for leaving the jets and his reason for starting this new life. He's like Every morning I wake up reaching for something, and I'm like, tell me more. Basic ass hoe. But. But. So in the movie, I think that number works fine enough for me, oddly. Not because of him, but because of Rita Moreno.

[A]

Fair.

[B]

Her reaction. No, I hear you. I hear you, though. Is that my least friend? Is there any. Do you think every other number works pretty much well for you in that respect, then?

[A]

I mean, I have a similar problem with Maria for the same reason. Although I think it's gorgeously shot, I love the range.

[B]

I wish that they revealed the janitor turning on the lights before they turned on the lights as opposed to after. Because it's similar to Zegler moving up her arms behind the bleachers and Ansel being like, what? That's. I'm like, no, don't make a joke of it. Like, show us that someone's turning on the light. So when he gets to that final Maria. Okay, action. This is. This is where I'm like Spielberg. Go back to the footage you have and see if you can make this change. So when Ansel's singing Maria, and we. And we have him sing Maria, Maria, and then we have the echo. Have a wide shot from above for the echo so we know the echoes are in real time. We know where it's coming from. We get a sense of the space because they wait too long to show it, to be like, this is why you're hearing the echo. I'm like, no, no. Show the echo when it happens from that space. Then as he's building, have a cut of the janitor in the shadows flipping switches. And when he hits that final switch, the light comes on in that final Maria. Make it nice. I say embrace the purple.

[A]

I love purple.

[B]

And west side Story needs that purple because otherwise all the tragedy isn't tragic. People are so afraid to be romantic, especially in musicals.

[A]

I don't know why.

[B]

I don't know why I cling to their cynicism in the same way that everyone's seeing challengers and you're like. And you're going, girls, that ain't sex. Like, it's sexy.

[A]

It's perfectly fine.

[B]

It's sensual.

[A]

I'm urging all of you to watch the movie Secretary. Did you ever think that was gonna get named after on your podcast at some point?

[B]

God, if Maggie Gyllenhaal could sing, she would be an awesome queenie.

[A]

The Gyllenhaal's are fascinating.

[B]

They are fat. They're a fascinating bunch.

[A]

Jake Gyllenhaal is my birthday twin, and I think that says a lot about me.

[B]

Yeah, sure do, baby.

[A]

I am saying that it says something about me in a tongue in cheek way. I feel I need to clarify since we made it, the fact that he's my birthday twin, I find interesting to the idea of birthday twins having anything to say about people. That's what I meant.

[B]

I don't think anyone was gonna take anything negative about you from that stuff.

[A]

Where it's like, in the same way that people are like, oh, someone has your exact same, like, lineup of like. You want to know what I actually think says something about me? The fact that I was born early so that I was on this planet for when Titanic the movie came out. I think that says something about me.

[B]

Like, actually, you know what it says about me? I was born two days after Howard Ashman won his first Oscar for Little Mermaid. And I was born the day the Madonna's Vogue came out.

[A]

Incredible.

[B]

So not only was I gay, but I was gay.

[A]

No, I was born the day of the Titanic premiere. Jake gyllenhaal was like 12 or something and, oh, like so much political unrest happened. So much happened. And so I just, I find that to be just. Yeah, I came in with a bang.

[B]

I share a birthday with Mariah Carey and Quentin Tarantino and I think that says a lot about me. I think I am. I have a little bit of both of them in me.

[A]

I can see it.

[B]

Yeah, I will make a weird pop culture reference and then go, ta da. Still got it. Like, that is who I am in my core.

[A]

The bit of Jake Gyllenhaal that I want, I will take with me is like an unflinching obsession with orchestrations. Yeah, I'll take that.

[B]

In a weird way, like, there was a when. When Jake Gyllenhaal would have been age appropriate to play Tony. I don't think he came into his looks enough to be that pretty.

[A]

She also has. No, he's never been that type of pretty boy.

[B]

No, but I, I don't. I don't want a soft looking Tony. I want someone.

[A]

No, I don't want a soft looking Tony. I like look as. As you want on the outside. I want soft eyes. And Jake has crazy eyes.

[B]

Yeah. Oh, that he do. I also want pillowy lips.

[A]

I'm all about eyes.

[B]

I want. The joke is gone now because I couldn't think of a furniture store, but I was like, I want lips that scream Sam's Furniture Basement. Whatever. I don't know. I couldn't think of a real, A.

[A]

Real doll but okay, so if I'm, like, redoing a number, something's coming. I think Maria is the second spot, and it's because of Ansel.

[B]

Yeah. If we can't. If we can't recast Ansel, I will. I will go back into the editing room and re edit Maria. There's beautiful shots and everything that Spielberg and Kushner set up, I'm okay with. There are, I think, establishing shots where they want the joke. And I'm like, no, don't have the joke. They even address the. I don't think it's this online discord. This is gay discord. Of the joke of he's singing Maria in San Juan Hill and, like, not 20 girls are coming out their windows.

[A]

I thought that was so funny.

[B]

It's. It's funny. I think that. I think there's a cuter way to do it, maybe.

[A]

But I really liked it.

[B]

Or maybe if we didn't have the joke of the janitor and that was the one joke in the song, I would be a little more here for it. After the Janitor one, I'm like. I got a little mad because I was like, stop undercutting the sweetness. So if that's the one, I would be like, well, that's the palate cleanser from all this sugar. I'm okay with that. But I also. I don't know. I think that after that number, because he is so Bryan Cranston. Malcolm Middle. And we'll wrap things up in just a second. But he is so. But I found you. Oh, of course. I love you more. I think I just wanted a little more of their Maria in this to just at the very least, really want him. If not necessarily be like. But of course we love each other equally. I wanted a little bit more of, like, you're like. You're saying ridiculous things, but I kind of want to unbutton your shirt right now. Like, I. I wanted her to be a tad more horny.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

Just a tad. She's really. She's really good at the. Rachel Zegler's really good at the I'm looking at you and a lot's going on behind the eye stare.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

I wanted a little bit of more. And something's going on in my south by Southwest. Like, I wanted a little bit of that.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

But I don't know. I'm very here for women claiming their sexuality and their horniness.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

If I can be it, so can they.

[A]

So is your favorite album right now short and sweet?

[B]

Oh, that's Sabrina.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

I do like it a lot. Yeah. What's the one about tasting me when you taste. Taste. Yeah, I like that one a lot. Yeah, she's fun. I'm always so late to pop music, but I got into Sabrina's album relatively quickly after it came out.

[A]

Nice.

[B]

I mean, it took me like nine months to get into chapel, and I fully waited another three months after she got famous. Famous because I'm just. I'm me.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

I think. I think I'm gonna listen to Rachel Zegler on the west side Story soundtrack again, and then I'll come back to this. Yeah. So, okay, you think the number ones are one hand, one heart? Prologue. Weakest are Marie or Maria. And something's coming. Okay, okay, okay. Debose worthy of the Oscar that year.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

Okay, so of the. So here's the lineup for Feist. Again, it's Jesse Plemons and Cody Smith McPhee for Power of the Dog. It's Troy Kotsur who won for Coda, J.K. simmons for being the Ricardos, and Kieran Hines for Belfast. Who are you kicking out for, Mikey?

[A]

J.K. simmons.

[B]

Not Kyrian?

[A]

No. He was great in that film.

[B]

Not Jesse Plemis.

[A]

I like him being an Oscar nominee.

[B]

I do too. And I'm not kicking out Cody because I love the ultimate message of Power of the Dog is you mess with a gay boy's mom will kill you.

[A]

And I also feel like Cody is another he. I think people are sleeping on him and he's gonna come out.

[B]

Oh, yeah.

[A]

Like five or ten years.

[B]

He's. He's not doing what Barry Keoghan's doing of, like, I'm just gonna say yes to Saltburn. Like, I'm just gonna do it. He's like, I'm gonna have my follow up be something cute.

[A]

And Cody specifically. So he has done his follow up. He was in Elvis 2022.

[B]

Oh, that's right, he was.

[A]

And he. No one paid attention to it, but he was doing some really incredibly clever work in that film.

[B]

But he was filming Elvis before Power of the Dog technically came out, right? Yeah. So I. Yeah, that was technically the following.

[A]

He sat this follow up.

[B]

Technically, yeah. But in terms of. I have my Oscar nomination. Here's my. Here's my chance. Because Barry's like, I'm giving the gays what they want in Saltburn. I'm showing my dick. I'm like, no, no. Cody is giving the gays that they want in Power of the Dog by having. By having tension, sexual tension with Benedict Cumberbatch. And then at the end, staring directly into the camera and looking at all of us and saying, if you mess with the gay man's mother, I will come for you. Gay boys will come for you if you mess with our mommies.

[A]

Yeah, No, I. I think he's gonna have a big moment.

[B]

Yeah. What's David Alvarez up to now? Our Bernardo?

[A]

Okay, so David's arc with this film is fascinating, Right.

[B]

Because he was. He was out of the business.

[A]

He was out for over a decade. He was in the military.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Like, he fully. Like, if I remember correctly, he had just gotten back from backpacking across Mexico when they finally tracked him down on Instagram and were like, please.

[B]

Yeah. Because they were having trouble finding a Bernardo.

[A]

It took while a him, like, two or three weeks just to get a hold of him because he didn't have an agent or a manager or anything like that at the time, as far as I know. And they were, like, trying to find him in, like, Twitter and insta dms. Like, can you please send us a self tape? He sent in a tape, if I remember, because he had, like, a big, like, hiking beard. Still. He was so good in this film.

[B]

He is.

[A]

And from what I can tell, he's partially retired again with a couple of things.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Like, he just did. I think it was called El Ortiz. He just did something earlier this year, but it wasn't like, it's not gonna be, like, competing at the Tonys. It was, like a small, personally significant thing.

[B]

I like that. I like the narrative because he got success young. He was a Billy Elliot, won a Tony and then walked away because he got what he needed and then was brought back in for this thing that worked so well for him. And he's like, yeah, great. Cool.

[A]

Yeah. And he did what he wanted to do, and now he's just back to doing what he wants to do.

[B]

And I think that's wonderful.

[A]

I'm thrilled for him. I think he was wonderful in this film. I know, like, there's people who have, like, a lot of, like, attachment to George's interpretation. This is the Bernardo for me, I.

[B]

Think what makes George's George Shakiris, by the way, what makes his Bernardo so effective in the original, is that there is a lot of blandness on the jet side of the pond in that movie. Sit your buns down, girl. With George, he is so specific and so pointed that I can understand why he kind of got the Oscar buzz that he did on that movie. Like, Russell Tamlin's very good, but, like, you know, you Have Richard Bamer, who's whatever. So it was him and Rita for sure. So I get that. But no, I think that David is an incredible Bernardo. It's a very well cast movie.

[A]

It's an incredibly well cast movie. And I'm very, very glad he came undertimer to do this.

[B]

Yeah, yeah. No, I'm sure. There are other things that I wanted to say that I didn't. I feel like we covered a lot of things that people wanted. We talked about the summer changing and Valentina. We talked about the aesthetic because somebody else mentioned they're like, I think it's really a beautiful movie or like, it's a good movie and it's very well shot. They're like, I. I don't get a lot of emotions from it. So I talked about that from my perspective, what Arthur Lawrence would say. And I think you and I both answered with, who fucking cares? Yep, I'm glad he's gone. Any last words on this west side Story? Margaret, you want to say, I am.

[A]

Glad that it exists in concert to the original film. This is my preferred that if I'm going back to watch one. Even in spite of how much I do not care for Onset Elgarte's performance. I do, however, think it is a part of a trend that we are currently seeing with 21st century movie musicals, specifically movie musicals that were filmed just a bit before COVID And I am really hoping, actually, that Wicked breaks the pattern, which is. And Jon M. Chu, I think, came really, really incredibly close on in the Heights. And I think Wicked, maybe he's got it unlocked now of. I think that we are entering an era where you cannot just love me musical theater to make a movie, and you cannot just love movies to make a musical. You have to understand how both art forms work incredibly well in order to truly put them in conversation and make it meld. I think Tick, Tick, Boom accomplished this. I loved that film. There were sequences of musical theater that could only work on screen in that film. And I think John and you had a moment of that in in the Heights with Basancia aifei. And I think that scene was incredibly well done. And I am hopeful that Wicked will be the big blockbuster that we need to prove to many people that musicals aren't just shot. You just need to pay just as much attention to both halves of the phrase movie, musical.

[B]

I mean, ultimately, I think the biggest flaw in Wonka is that the songs are just sort of okay. But I do think that Paul King made a good movie musical just in Terms of the structure and the pacing and all of it and creating a world. I will say, I think that Spielberg does a good job of making everything a world where it makes sense to sing and dance because it is real. But like where my mom was like, that's too pretty. I'm like, it kind of needs to be a little too pretty in order to make this world sing.

[A]

Yeah. And even with it being like a little too pretty, it was never too pretty. To the point that I'm like, oh yeah, we got like our snap and high jumping gangster. Yeah.

[B]

But that's why I love the original Oliver that you and I both love. Like, it is. It is a heightened version of London at that time.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And you need it in order for these urchins to sing a dance.

[A]

People like, they say they want realism. They don't. They want what they perceive to be realism. It's the Tiffany problem.

[B]

And we could. We could talk about that more. But there are plenty of YouTube videos that talk about this. There's a great one about the making of Les Mis, of why Tom Hooper was the wrong choice of going. That gritty realism frame for a work that is three hours of bombastic singing. You can reach that point of melody when you're going insular like that. And I think that this accomplishes that very well. Again, most of my issues are things that can be fixed in editing. Other things like choreography, which are not bad. Just I have. I would like them to go again. But I digress. Yeah. I think we've talked about this a great deal, Margaret. This has been delightful. I'm so glad you came on to do this in your game. And you have been just as long winded as I am. I love people who match me breath for breath.

[A]

Such a blessing. I love doing these with you.

[B]

I love these. It's been far too long. We need you back asap. Where can people find you if you want them to find you?

[A]

I am its Margaret hall on all relevant social media. My website is margaret-hall.com and support autistic Theatre Makers, the nonprofit that I helped found. I am now the president of the board and is it supports neurodivergent art makers and audience members across the industry.

[B]

Work girl. I love that. If you want to support me. I am just a person in this world. Join the Discord Channel if you can. You can submit your questions and topics for each episode. You'll also know when we are recording next so you can have little intel on that. You can also talk to everybody in the Broadway Breakdown community. Everyone is so awesome and knowledgeable sharing stuff. You also can get access to the Mega Files, which has content that you can watch to prepare yourself for these episodes. Fun, fun, fun times. Also, make sure to check out the fundraising page for the yours truly livestream reading that we'll be doing. If you like the podcast, give us a nice 5 star rating or review. I'm gonna do this one that I just got today. It was posted Saturday, but it just popped up today and I want to say it now because I think this episode's coming out in like five weeks, so I don't want this person to think I didn't read it. I want to say this is Play the Lightning and the Piazza Overture, five stars. The only Broadway podcast to listen to. Even though this is the only Broadway podcast I listen to, I can say, hands down, it's the best. You don't need any others. Matt is well spoken and knowledgeable and it feeds my theater nerd soul. Thank you. That girl, Alison. I know exactly who you are. We talk on Instagram all the time. You're awesome. Thank you, Alison. I would love it more if you guys did that. You guys are really good at writing these reviews and I enjoy it. Martin. Margaret. What? Oh. Unfollow me on Instagram. Matt Koplik. Usual spelling. What diva are we closing out with today? Margaret?

[A]

Elaine Stretch.

[B]

Oh, yeah. I wish there was audio of her doing the King and I. Oh, my God, yes. Because she did it and I'm like, what was that like? Hello, young lovers, wherever you are.

[A]

I love her so much.

[B]

She's great. No, I'll do a great one. I'll do a great one with her. Yeah, we'll close her out. Thank you so much for listening, guys. Check us back next week. It's either gonna be Streetcar Named Desire or Little Shop of Horrors. We've been recording these things back to back. All out of order. Depends on what I get out of the gate. But it's one of those two, so something to look forward to. Take it away, Elaine. Bye.

[A]

The Doors. And call me your because you took. You took advantage of me.