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Broadway Breakdown
When the Tonys Got It Right (w/ Peter Duchan)
02:43:31
Looking Back On Good Choices at the Tony Awards
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- [00:00]
A
Think of the prestige.
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B
Think of the respect. No, no, no. Think of the Tony.
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A
Hello, all you theater lovers both out and proud and on the DL, and welcome back to Broadway Breakdown, a podcast discussing the history and legacy of American theater's most exclusive address, Broadway. We are doing our Tony coverage this month as we lead up to the big day itself. And instead of doing predictions or reactions, we've done a whole bunch of that. We're taking a quick break, and we're doing some Tony history. But because this is Broadway Breakdown, it is indeed laced with opinions. My guest today is a writer. You might know his work from Dogfight. He is a French woods boy, so we can only somewhat like him. We cannot love him, but we let him live. Anyway, please welcome to the Pod. Peter Duchenne. Hi, Peter.
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B
Hi, Matt. How you doing?
- [00:57]
A
I'm well, thank you. Do you prefer Peter? Pete? Petey?
- [01:00]
B
I prefer Peter, but I'll take anything.
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A
Okay. Just call me at all. That's what we always say, right? So, Peter, we're doing something that's actually kind of odd for me. We're leading with positivity in this episode. I am known for my opinions. I. I mean, I will fight for the things I love. I'm also not afraid to talk about the things I don't love. And because I talk a lot, and this podcast is long form, I say it in very long paragraphs, but also just, you know, 2023 is a time, and thus positivity is sometimes elusive. But I said, damn it, we will be positive today. And so you are joining us, Peter, for the times that we felt the Tony Awards actually got the winner. Right?
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B
And I'm excited to be here. I'm excited to express some positive opinions myself.
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A
I'm very excited. We looked over each other's lists, and I'm sure we might come up with some others during this time. So when I was telling Peter everyone was that it's not just people who've won that were all like, oh, yeah, great winner. You know, because that's. The list is very long for that. You know, I think what I told Peter in terms of things we have to kind of try to cut out, is, you know, saying, oh, yeah, the Tony's awarding Sondheim best score for Sweeney Todd. That was a good win. It's like, yeah, no, no shit, Sherlock. Oh, you can also curse on this podcast in case you'd like to.
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B
That's great.
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A
Yay. But I, you know, best score for Sweeney Todd, Pretty fucking easy. There are ones where it's a Little trickier because. And it's hard for listeners to know because we all weren't alive for the entire Tony history. So we're mostly going off of the Tonys that we've been around for with a few historical ones that we can sort of look back on with their legacy and whatnot. But the idea is winners that it might have been a little harder to choose from, and they did actually go with a really strong choice or someone maybe came in with a lot of momentum and then the other winner came in and won and just. Yeah, it's worked out well for a lot of people. So I look forward to talking about this and debating and agreeing on some things. So on that note, Peter, let's start with you, because I just talked a lot. Let's start with one of your first choices for a winner that the Tonys got right and why.
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B
Okay, well, thank you, Matt. When you reached out to me, the first thing that came to mind for whatever reason was Rebecca Taishman winning direction of a play for Indecent possibly because I remember the moment when I was watching it and thinking, oh, my gosh, the right person won. You know, the person I was rooting for won. And that does not always happen, as we know. And I remember feeling so thrilled that I felt like an artistic achievement that I really was supportive of could triumph in that night. And I think that the work she did also. I mean, she co created the play, you know, co conceived it, et cetera. I don't know the exact credit, but she was really woven into the fabric of that piece, and I was thrilled to see her win despite some really tough competition in a pretty good year.
- [03:50]
A
Yeah, this is a baller category. Now that I'm looking at the nominees, we have Sam Gold for Doll's House Part 2, which honestly was my pick for best play that year. I adored that production. Ruben Santiago Hudson for Jitney, which was a stellar revival of August Wilson. Bart Sher for Oslo, which was the best play winner. Daniel Sullivan for the Little Foxes, another strong revival from our chardonnay subscript, Manhattan Theater Club. I say that with love, guys. I think everyone in Manhattan Theater Club knows that they are a giant bottle of Chardonnay because we enjoy them. But yeah, this is a great lineup. And I remember going in Bart. So Rebecca won the outer critic circle. You said that's.
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B
Yeah. But I think Ruben Santiago Hudson won the drama desk.
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A
Yeah. And ironically. Not ironically, but oddly enough, Bart share kind of went in that night with the momentum because everyone was so sure that Oslo was winning play. And I mean, it did, and it also won featured actor.
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B
But there was being a surprise, actually, the featured actor part of that was.
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A
It I. I having.
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B
At least to me.
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A
Well, so. Well, so that's. I was just listening to a podcast today where, you know, I'll just say it was friends of the pod, Connor and Dylan McDonald, sorry, McDonald McDowell, doing their drama podcast, and they were talking about their reactions to the Tonys and things that they had seen, things they had not seen. And there were some lack of nominations that surprised them, and they were not performances or shows that they had seen yet. And having seen those lack of nominations being performed, I thought to myself, see, there are some things that on paper make more sense, but when you see them, you go, oh, I get why this person won. And for Oslo, I don't remember if he was a surprise or not. I feel like no one really knew who the frontrunner was for featured actor. But I remember seeing Oslo not. Not super loving it. But when his character came on stage in, I think it's act two, right. And he's, like, talking all about the waffles, I was like, oh, this guy, like, brings all the energy into the show. And it was just one of those moments where you go, I think he's gonna win. Because if they're awarding Oslo Play, he's gonna be the performance. They walk away remembering not Jennifer Ehley or Jefferson Mays, even though they are on stage all the time. So that made sense to me. But with this, when Bart didn't win and Rebecca did, I remember being also very surprised because it didn't feel like there was any momentum for her and that. And it was just one of those moments, like you said, where you go, that is such a good choice. And it wasn't a sure thing. Yeah.
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B
And I remember seeing on her face, you know, at least from the television camera point of view, some seemingly legitimate surprise.
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A
Yeah. I love it when that happens. When the actual. When there's an actual surprise on the winner's face instead of just the, yes, that sounds correct. And they sort of like walk up to the podium, right?
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B
Like a Bette Midler. Phew.
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A
Yeah. The one time that had happened that I. I appreciate was when Mary Louise Wilson won for Gray Gardens. She kind of just walks up to the stage and she's like, yep, this is correct. And she even says it in her speech. She says something along the lines of, like, I've been nominated before, and I've always wondered, should I ever win? But I think they made the Wrong choice. And now that it's happened, I, I don't think they did we stan a queen. Yeah, that's. That's a great choice. We both actually have. Speaking of directors, Christopher Ashley for director of a musical for Come From Away and from the same year. The same year. They chose two good directions that year and neither of them won for shows that ended up winning the big prize.
- [07:19]
B
Yeah. And actually I had a similar reaction when Chris Ashley won for Come From Away, where I was not expecting that myself. I had thought it was a race between Rachel Chavkin, who I thought a really great job with Comet, and Michael Greif, I thought, who I don't believe had won. So maybe still hasn't won.
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A
Still hasn't won yet.
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B
And I really thought there was sort of a two way race there. So the Chris Ashley thing came from left field for me. But his work, again, it's so woven into the fabric of that piece. The transitions, the sort of storytelling aspect of it. The entire energy and tone of it really felt driven in some ways by that staging. And when then, you know, when I look back and see that he won on paper, I go, oh, yeah, of course. And I think that's great.
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A
Absolutely. Having seen Come From Away again right after Lockdown, I was just sort of reminded of that show is kind of like a magic trick. You know, it's because it's a show that on paper shouldn't work. And if you were to tell me sort of how they go about presenting it, I would say like, oh, that just sounds, you know, a little too much to bear the talking narration, constantly talking to the audience, that it sort of leads with kindness, that it's. It 911 is always sort of in the background and everyone's playing different multiple characters. And it's, it reminds me of those like Tyler Ellis videos where he's like the musical that takes place, you know, two days ago and just things like that. But I remember seeing it for the first time in 2017 and being really delighted by it and thinking, you know, that the whole thing just sort of like came together in a really fantastic way that I didn't expect. And then over the years I, I didn't sour on it, but I was like, yo. No, I, I really loved it. I. But I see why people would have problems with it. And then coming back to it after lockdown, having just seen the dress rehearsal of Hadestown like two weeks prior and being like, yeah, that was, that was nice to see a show again. And then just fully crying it come from away, I was like, this show works. This show works so well. And Christopher Ashley's direction really is a major component of that. Just, like, the fluidity of it, the. The work with the actors, the. The tone of the whole thing.
- [09:25]
B
Yeah, I really appreciated that there was, like, a sense of storytelling theater without feeling gimmicky. Like, it felt very casually done, but precise. And. And to my eye, that felt, like, pretty seamless over the course of whatever it is. Two hours and no intermission.
- [09:42]
A
Yeah. And, yeah, we do have. It is stagey. There's a lot of staging in it. Because something that I always kind of talk about with people when we go into direction of a musical or a play is people get very hopped up on the visuals. Like, oh, well, what's the staging? Like, how creative are the exits and entrances? And, like, it's not just about that. If you're having issues with a performer in a. That's also something you have to tie to the director. Their job is to make sure everyone in the cast is on the same page of what the show is, how they're telling it, that the rhythm is going well, that the pacing of the whole thing is working. So I think that's something that he just did very well with the show. In addition to good staging, because everyone else here, this is also a very strong lineup. We do have Chavkin for Comet, who did a really lovely job. Greifer Hansen, which very good control of the actors and also kind of countering the schmaltz that I think can be there with Evan Hansen, as we sort of saw in the movie, he added sort of a bit of cynicism in there to make it a bit more gritty. Warchis for Groundhog Day, which is a show I adore and I love adoring it. Because when this show came out in this season, Peter, let me tell you the friends I had who hated it and were angry that I loved it so much that I would go see it three times, mostly because I loved it. Also, it was just fun to troll my friends. And then we have Jerry Zaks for hello, Dolly, which was a very lovely revival. Yeah, that was a good winner. Good winner. Let's do another one of yours, shall we?
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B
Sure. I'm gonna jump around in time. How do you feel about that?
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A
I love it. Do it.
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B
Let's go back in time to, like, 1999, and I'm gonna pick best actor in a musical. Martin Short, who won for Little Me and beating, I think, the person that maybe, as time has passed, that people have thought, oh, my God, I couldn't believe that Brent Carver didn't win a Tony for Parade. So Parade was that year and so was Adam Cooper in Swan Lake, the Matthew born Swan Lake, and Tom Wopat in Anna get yout Gun, who actually had a surprising amount of momentum going into the evening because he was in the show that was open. Parade had long since closed. Little Me had long since closed. Both of them were at the, you know, institutional houses. They were not. They were limited runs to begin with. But Brent Carver had won the Drama Desk. And I think hindsight has said, oh, this is Brent Carver's Tony. And I heartily disagree. Not only because I think Martin Short was really, really great in the show and I have wonderful memories of seeing him in the performance, but also because he gives one of my favorite speeches in the history of the Tony Awards. It's one of the funniest, most sort of personality driven speeches and it's completely charming. So I would be really sad if we lost Martin short's Tony in 1999.
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A
No, it's a great win. The thing about this is also, I think the last time someone won for a closed musical because people have won for closed plays in the past and we'll get to some of those later. But it's harder to win in a musical that has closed if you're, if you're a performer. And I think Martin Short might be the last time that's actually happened.
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B
That would be wild if it's really been that long. That's incredible.
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A
Yeah. Because it happened twice in the 90s. Yeah, it happened once with Martin Short, with Little Me, Andrea Martin, for my favorite year. And I think those are the only two of the 90s. And then I think you have to go even further back after that to like Tommy Tune and Seesaw or maybe Angela Lansbury and Gypsy. For someone who won for a musical that closed.
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B
Wow. That is not a sort of window or prison through which I've ever thought about that. That's really interesting.
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A
Yeah, well, that's something that I was sort of telling people as we were going into this Tony's with performances being nominated and who could possibly win? Because, you know, when I'm so glad that, you know, Julia Lester got nominated for into the Woods, I adored her performance. I was a little surprised though. But now that woods has had all these nominations, people are going, oh, well, what's the likelihood of any of those actors winning of the show winning? And it's difficult for a closed musical to get awarded in the end, they can get nominated still, that. We've seen that happen with Falsettos and, you know, with Amor and. And things like that. And, you know, my beloved Smile got a best book nomination in 1987. But it's harder to win because you kind of need to be around to rile up enough voters to want to vote for you, because it's so much easier to get passionate about something that's right in front of you that you saw that week as you're casting your vote than something you saw six months ago. But so that just sort of tells you about the passion behind Martin Short's performance, that he was that well regarded in the role, that even though there was Tom Wopad who had. Who was in a successful revival at the time, was Swan Lake still running at this point? I feel like it was just about to close.
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B
Maybe it was just about to close, but he also, you know, Adam Cooper didn't speak in Swan Lake. Yes. Which I think does pose a challenge.
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A
Sure. Swan Lake was. But Swan Lake was also a cultural moment on Broadway. And I know it won director and choreographer that year. And it was just. It was. It was a cultural moment. But I don't think people were thinking of Cooper as the reason it was the moment. They were thinking Matthew Bourne was the reason that it was the moment. But sometimes. Sometimes people get swept up in the momentum, in the thing that is the moment. So that could have always happened.
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B
But I just want a side note, because you mentioned Julia Lester, that I always find it interesting when, like, a role that has failed, like an sort of iconic role like Little Red Riding Hood in Into the woods, that has failed to somehow get nominations for any of the actors who've done really great jobs with it prior. When it finally happens, like the Sweeney Todd revival in 2006, like Manuel Feliciano getting a nomination for a role that had been done so well before, but somehow never got a nomination.
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A
Ruthie and Miles this year for the Beggar Woman. Never been nominated for that role before. Yeah, it's. I always had Ruthie as a possibility this year. And I said, you know, my only caveat of what could do her in is no one's ever been nominated for the Bedroom before, shockingly enough.
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B
Similarly, Julia Lester. So two in the same category.
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A
Exactly. It's just.
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B
It. Fun.
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A
It's fun. And. And Brian Darcy James, our very first Baker to ever be Tony nominated.
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B
Yes. It's.
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A
Listen, these things do happen, and then sometimes we get people who win Tonys for the role that they created and Then, like the first revival back, the person who plays that role isn't even nominated, which we'll get to with one of my rightful winners when we get to the 70s, which isn't that controversial. It's more just. I'm not going to get to it yet. I just want to tease people. The reason why I picked it is because it was between this person and their co star. And going into the night, everyone thought it was going to be their co star. I do think the rightful actress won in that musical, especially because their co star would win only, like, three years later. So it's all always balanced out for them. But we'll get to her in a second with Martin Short. Yeah. This was also so, like, the interesting thing also. And this is why I want to talk to people about precursors. As you said, Brent Carver did win the Drama Desk, as did Carolee, as did Parade.
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B
Well, Caroly tied.
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A
Oh, she died with Bernard.
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B
She tied with Bernard Peters.
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A
Okay. Yeah. And Bernadette kind of went into this. Tony's not a sure thing because she sort of overcame the fact that everyone thought she was miscast. This, you know, that revival opened and everyone expected it to be a disaster. And the response was sort of like, you know, it's not a natural fit, but she does pretty good. And. But that didn't still feel like enough of a momentum for her to win. So when she did win, it sort of felt like a really wonderful actress who we all love, who worked really hard to make this role work for her. Here you go, kid. You did it, Jo. And it was a very nice moment.
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B
But similarly, I feel like her competition. I mean, she. I don't know if she was the only one in an open show, but Carolee was there. I think her name is Sean Phillips.
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A
I think it's Sean Phillips.
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B
Marlena, was there any. Oh, and was it D. Hody for Footloose even?
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A
Sure was, like, so.
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B
I mean, Footloose was open. Let's be clear about that. But I don't think that Dehoti was going to win a Tony for Footloose. It just wasn't in the cards.
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A
No, I love Dehoti. She has a nomination that bugs me because it took a nomination away from someone else who I thought should have been in there. We'll get to her, but we're talking.
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B
About 1994, but we'll go on.
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A
Yeah. I also. I want to let everyone know that I told Peter that we would not talk too much about the 1994 Tonys because y' all would be expecting it. But we are going to talk about it a little bit because Peter and I had a fun conversation via text that we want to expand on.
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B
Matt, are you known for. Forgive me. Are you known for talking about the 1994 Tonys?
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A
I'm talking. I'm known for talking about the 1994 carousel.
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B
Ah, okay. Because the 1994 Tonys were, for me, it might be a little older than you. The Tonys that I first discovered as a child. And that is the ceremony I could probably do from start to finish.
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A
So first of all, I'm so glad you said that, because I forgot to ask you at the beginning of the episode. Peter, what's the first Tonys you remember watching? So I'm glad that that was the one.
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B
Well, I remember watching 1993. I remember I asked my parents to tape it, and my mother said, sure, I'll tape it. You're gonna think it's boring. And I watched it and I thought, this is boring. And then a year later, I asked them to tape it again, and for whatever reason, it really clicked. And I was like, this is awesome. I want to see an inspector calls.
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A
I mean, I. Listen, I get it. When was the year of Kathy Rigby's Peter Pan? Was that nine? Well, that was the first one, but I feel. Yeah, this. Okay, so it was the 1999 Tony's. This one that we're talking about talking about right now. That was the first Tonys I remember watching because I remember watching the introduction for Kathy Rigby and Peter Pan, which I had seen on Broadway that year and was very into. I remember watching the you're a good man, Charlie Brown performance and watching Chenoweth win. And then I remember the Parade performance, and I didn't know anything about it. And I asked my parents what it was about. They had seen it, and they. All they could. All they were willing to say was, it's sad. Don't worry about it. Like, just, it's a sad show. And that was. That was the end of that conversation.
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B
Well, I had seen Parade, and, you know, I was, I don't know, 15, 16. I loved it. I loved it. I was. I mean, like, if you had asked me in 1999, in that moment, I was rooting for Brent Carver probably. It's in sort of hindsight that I go, I think what Brent Carver did was awesome. But I think what Martin Short did is maybe even a little bit harder or rarer even.
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A
Yeah, well, comedy's extraordinarily hard. There's drama. It's not that drama is easy. It's just, you know, to get 1200 individuals who all have different senses of humor to laugh together at a moment you need them to laugh. Takes an amazing amount of skill and intelligence.
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B
Totally. Although, to be fair, it was in the Criterion Center Stage. Right. So it was like 499 people.
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A
Sure.
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B
But we'll take it.
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A
We'll take it.
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B
He.
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A
Listen, he did it once before in the Goodbye Girl, which was even harder because that was bad material and that was Brent Carver. So listen, it all balances out that I am not a believer in karma, but karma, it all. It all comes circling back. Okay. You know, actually. Oh, so two things I do want to apologize to my listeners from last week. I mistakenly said that Stephen McKinley Henderson had a Tony. I had thought he had won for Joe Turner's Come and Gone. He had. He did not. He was not in Joe Turner's Coming On. At least I don't think so. He was nominated for Fences and I had combined the two. August Wilson plays together in my mind because I remember him in Fences being so fantastic and just thinking that he had won. He did not. He does not have a Tony Award. So I am so sorry. Kyle. Kyle Marshall, if you would like Stephen McKinley Henderson to win this year for Between Riverside and Crazy, he absolutely can go for it. Steve. It's yours, baby, if you want it. So I need to say that. Now, the other thing, if we're going to get into 1994 before we get into the rest of the stuff, the reason why Peter and I were sort of talking about that ceremony, in addition to the fact that I now know it was your first Tonys that made an impression on you. And it is a fun ceremony. I talked about this once before, but I'd like to expand on it. They opened that ceremony with a medley performance up from every revival. Every revival got about 90 seconds to perform something and it was tied together with Victor Garber as Applegate singing. A little bit of those Were the Good Old Days, connecting all the pieces. And, you know, when they finish, everyone sings Heart Together. All like all the cast from all the revivals come together and they all sing you Gotta have Heart. And then they bring out George Abbott with Gwen Verdon and Maureen. And Maureen Stapleton, Jean Stapleton, and they have George Abbott, Stapleton and Verdon name the nominees and then Verdon announces the winner. And it is very clear in the room. So the nominees are Carousel, She Loves Me, Damn Yankees and Grease. Of the four, she Loves Me had the most nominations. Carousel was actually considered to have underperformed with nominations that night because Michael Hayden was not nominated unfairly, so Sally Murphy was not nominated unfairly so Love Dehoti. But she was nominated for Best Little Whorehouse Goes Public. And I think even she would tell you she was baffled in that when that nomination day happened. But they are announcing the nominees and we were talking about this. They go down the line. And the way that they are announcing the nominees and the way that the audience is responding, you can tell what are the shows everyone's rooting for in the room. She Loves Me is a huge crowd favorite. The way that Jean Stapleton goes she loves Me. And was it it's Verdon who does Damn Yankees or Stapleton that says Damn?
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B
No, it's Stapleton.
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A
How does she say it, Peter?
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B
She goes, damn Yankees.
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A
Just living it up. And I think Stapleton was Stapleton, even in damning case originally. I feel like she was.
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B
Yeah, she was. She was Gloria, I believe, originally.
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A
Good on Gloria.
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B
The secretary. Not the secretary, the journalist.
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A
Yeah. Is that her?
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B
Yeah.
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A
Good for her. I remember she was the original Mrs. Stray. Caution in Funny Girl Fanny, when. When audiences pay good money in the theater, especially the male element, they want something to look at. And. And so not only do they finish the medley with Hart, they have Victor Garber tying everything together as Applegate. They have George Abbott, the original director of Damn Yankees, out there with one of the. With the two original stars of Damn Yankees announcing the winner. They were very sure it was either going to be Damn Yankees or she Loves Me. And it ended up being Carousel, which was the right choice. And the audience's response is polite but not enthusiastic. And then Carousel goes on to win every single award it's nominated for. And the only time there's, like, ever something above mild applause is when Audra wins. But even her win, it's not like the whole room is cheering. It's like it's polite. When Heitner won for director, when macmillan won choreography, and when Bob Crowley won for set design, everyone's like, okay. And I'm like, oh, boy. People are not thrilled that this show just completely swept. Which is so funny to me because you look at that year and I'm like, oh, no. The greatest revival of all time rightfully won every category it was. It was nominated for. You should be on your feet thanking them for giving you the greatest revival of all time. But everyone was just like, ugh, should have been Damn Yankees. And I'm like, whatever, whatever, Judy.
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B
This is where I have to Admit that I didn't see that revival, even though I was a fairly active theatergoer at that point.
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A
What were you doing seeing Dan Mickey's house?
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B
My mother and I have. Actually. I did see Dan Mickey's twice. The second time was somebody's birthday party. French Woods. So we'll skip the story since I know you won't appreciate it, but I do, vividly. My mother and I have talked about this years later. Like, why the hell didn't we go see that carousel? We would have loved that carousel. We didn't see it, but I will. I want to say a word on behalf of the revivals medley in 1994. Please do. I know it feels cruel that they only get 90 seconds each, but I think you can say about that category in 1994 something you can't say about most other categories of revivals. They all come off well. Even Grease comes off really well. And maybe having the extra three minutes or whatever actually isn't helping everybody. For whatever reason. I have found myself rewatching that medley a bunch. But we also left out. Oh, my God, the fact that the medley itself is hosted by Victor Garber.
- [25:47]
A
I was saying that.
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B
Yeah, he leads it. Oh, you said it.
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A
I'm so sorry. Because he ties it together as Applegate.
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B
Yeah. There's like this whole thing and George Abbott is so old that he's. I mean, they. They come out like on a flat. On the set piece because he can't walk out there. They really set up the moment. So I. I remember being shocked just because if you're like reading the room at all, it seems rather strange.
- [26:06]
A
Yeah, it's. It's a wonderful. I mean, the medley is wonderful. And you're right, they all come off well. And what I. It's not even just like the shortness.
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B
It's.
- [26:13]
A
It's a very. They're all very well curated performances because they fully represent what those revivals were. Right. You know, like Grease, they just come out with the hula hoops doing. We go full on. It's just bright. It's energy. It's Greece. Like, we're not going to do anything else besides this. She loves me. They do a little bit of I don't know his name into the title song. And it's so delightful and it's intimate. Dan Yankees, they do Shoeless Joe with, you know, amazing choreo. And again, it's like old school, a lot of energy. And then Carousel, they start with dialogue with Sally and Michael just breaking your damn heart. And then going into Shirley Verrett singing and then the entire ensemble singing. And it's just like very moving. I'm like, yeah, that's what each of those revivals were. They perfectly represented themselves, which is just so rare that I feel like so many times it's about trying to sell tickets and appeal to like middle America. And I'm like, no, no, no. Curate your performance to what your show is. That's why I love the Fun Home performance. Like, we could do Come to the Fun Home or we could just have Sydney Lucas doing the song. And it works so well.
- [27:19]
B
Much more effective. I mean, I, I actually think that all four of the shows are sold well in the revival. In 94. Like, I would buy a ticket to all four of them, although I didn't. So, no, strike that.
- [27:29]
A
That was a, that was a very good lineup. And the, the truth is, of the four of them, Greece was objectively the biggest hit because it ran the longest. Carousel was at a non profit, so it, you know, eventually had to close. But Carousel was also a very big hit. It was, it was a tough ticket for a while. And then because Lincoln Center Theater was still relatively young when they produced it and that was such a huge financial undertaking, the moment it looked like they might have a couple of money losing weeks in January, they're like, we'd rather close it than like survive January and February and come back making money again. And so like that show probably could have run twice as long or even three times as long if it was in a commercial house. But them's the breaks. Them's the breaks. But it is, it's so interesting to watch that ceremony because that was also, and I've talked about this before, I miss the Tony ceremonies that are in a Broadway theater and this one's in the Gershwin because it's mostly just the community, the industry in the community. It's not a lot of outside fans buying tickets to come in. So you get a sense in those ceremonies of who is, you know, really has the support based off of, you know, who, where the screams are coming from. Especially you can always tell from the mezzanine what, you know, who's got the support. When Tyne Daly wins for Gypsy, the gays in the mezzanine go absolutely insane. When Doro Loudoun wins for Annie, the gays and the mezzanine go insane for her. And it's like they are so beloved in that moment. It is such a triumphant win for those ladies and I love that and I miss that.
- [28:52]
B
94 is also the year I like, maybe It's. I'm sure. And I didn't do this in the moment, but because I've seen the ceremony so many times, I'm always. There's a piece of music that is played when Jane Addams wins her Tony for featured actress in a play. It's like, do, do, do, do, do, do, do, do, do, do. And they use it many other years in the Tonys. And I have no idea what this piece of music is, but anytime it comes up, I'm like, oh, that calls music. But it's not actually. It's just what the Tony Awards deemed they would play that night.
- [29:19]
A
That is so fascinating. I should look at that again. I remember Jane Adams winning Inspector Call was. Inspector Calls was the other major award winner that night. And then that was also the year of perestroika. Right. Angels. America.
- [29:32]
B
Yeah.
- [29:32]
A
Part two. Yeah. So, I mean, that's just a. They did a lot of good winners that night because not only does. Does my beloved Carousel, Sweet Passion wins musical. Donna wins actress. You know, Beauty and the Beast wins for their costumes. Fine and insp. Calls wins lighting design and featured actress. They win revival and director of a play. Angels in America wins play. Actor and featured actor, Jared Emick. Emick. Is that how you say his name? Wins, I think.
- [29:58]
B
Emek.
- [29:58]
A
Emma.
- [29:58]
B
Keyword. Although I think Nell Carter called him Emmett. Jared. Emmett, but I think it's Emmett.
- [30:03]
A
That sounds about right. I love it when Nell Carter presents the Tonys. It's always a laugh.
- [30:06]
B
She seemed very excited when he won.
- [30:08]
A
Yeah, she's always. She's. She's. She's always excited for whoever the winner is. And then Boyd Gaines winning for actor. Like it. There was a lot of good competition that year, and I feel like a lot of the rightful people won. It was like, I. I look at it, and I don't really have a lot of notes on the winners that year. Speaking of.
- [30:24]
B
No, but I will say, I can't let 94 go by without saying, like, they may have gotten some things right, but the Tonys really got one big thing wrong. The way they presented the design awards, they. That was the year that they just pointed to the winners in the audience and they stood up. And I'm not sure they had made a speech in advance. I think they maybe had, but on the telecast itself, all you saw was, you know, Ann Hooled Ward standing up, getting a gracious round of applause, and then sitting right back down at her seat.
- [30:48]
A
But what they do, which I wish they would still do, is they do a video segment where they get to talk about their work on their shows and you get to see the designs.
- [30:58]
B
That's true.
- [30:59]
A
I love that. That is true.
- [31:00]
B
There's the guy who. Oh, my God. The one who did the set for the Medea that had transferred from the Almeida. And he was like, some designers want their sets, or most designers want their sets to stand up. I want mine to fall down.
- [31:10]
A
Because the final reveal, that was the Diana Rigg Medea, where the reveal that she killed the children is. It's like the whole set was stones and it just fell apart to reveal her, like, covered in the kid's blood. And that's just a great image. I mean, that was also a good year of design. And it was between Carousel and An Inspector Calls, because it was. Yeah, they still did. They still combined plays and musicals up until, I think, 2003. That was the year they split it, right?
- [31:35]
B
You mean design wise?
- [31:36]
A
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. The design category used to be combined through all of the Tony Awards until 2003. Post.
- [31:45]
B
Yeah, they were definitely combined in 2002. I don't know.
- [31:48]
A
So let's actually go to that winner for you right now. The 2002 winner.
- [31:52]
B
Yeah. Tim Hadley, Private Live scenic design. Partly because I think it's fun when a play wins this category. Not the plays. Don't. I know you've got a play on your list that's a winner in the combined play and musical category. But I remember this. This is a category with really stiff competition. There was this set for Metamorphoses, the Mary Zimmerman play that had been designed by Danielle Osling. There was the revival into the woods, designed by Douglas W. Schmidt. And there was John Lee Beatty, who I. I think he had won many years earlier. But he was nominated that year for mornings at 7, which was a revival I really, really loved at the time. And his design was really beautiful. But Tim Hatley had that forced perspective. He had the little bit of automation. When the show began, the front of the set just crept towards the lip of the stage and really forced the perspective on the view of two hotel rooms outside. And he also had the benefit of designing a Parisian apartment that anybody would kill to live in. And it was just a lush, evocative set in a production that the Tonys voters clearly loved.
- [32:57]
A
Yeah, I. So that was actually the year that I learned about Private Lives. So I was. And I'm going to show my age here. I was a supple 12 years old, and all I knew all that season, the only shows I had seen were I had Seen Thoroughly Modern Millie. I had seen Mamma Mia. I had seen into the woods in Oklahoma, and I had seen Metamorphoses. Maybe one more play, but I can't remember what. First of all, metamorphosis still is stuck in my brain. I. That was one of the last times I saw a Broadway show. And I thought to myself, this is fudgeing sexy. Like. Like there was. That show was sex in the way that I feel. Like the Lachiusa Wild Party was just like sex. It was, you know, hot, but also made you uncomfortable because it just was so raw.
- [33:39]
B
I can confirm that was, like, deeply evocative to me, you know.
- [33:43]
A
Oh, yeah.
- [33:44]
B
Exciting to me at 17 or whatever.
- [33:46]
A
Yeah. Just like beautiful, sexy people who are also phenomenal actors, just moving and emoting in ways also while being soaking wet in that pool.
- [33:55]
B
It was.
- [33:56]
A
It was a lot and it was gorgeous. I loved that production so much. But I went into that night basically just being, you know, pro Millie and pro Woods. And I remember being so staunchly pro Woods. This was one of the earlier years that I was into the Tonys. For someone who watched their first Tony Awards in 99, it took about till 2001 for me to go. I have my predictions because at 11, you just know the world, you know, But I remember when Private Lives won set design, I was like, what is this play that beat a musical? There were books on stage and into the woods and then I saw the clips and I was like, oh, that looks fun and that. And I look back on that moment where that was like. I didn't realize at the time, but that planted the seed in my head of how I view rightful winners, where it's not just about what's the most, it's about what grabs you. You can do so much with so little sometimes. And I have a design winner that does do a lot as a play, but it's not as much as one of its competition nominees that year. But we'll get to her in a second.
- [34:59]
B
But you say you were obsessed with the into the woods that season. Had you also previously seen the filmed into the woods that had been on PBS?
- [35:07]
A
Oh, I knew it by heart, absolutely. At 12, I was still very much in the mind frame of just loving everything that I was seeing and which that started to change at after 2004. The joke I make on this podcast all the time, and we have two of these winners here is, I saw Caroline or change with my grandmother in May of 2004. And then I saw light in the piazza in I think April of 2005 with the same grandmother. And in those 12 months, a full monster was born because I became a hoity toity esoteric asshole. And I just, I started liking the more highbrow stuff. I started voting, rooting for the shows that weren't gonna win and just always talking about, oh, the mainstream choice. Even when it was, you know, the year of Spring Awakening V. Gray Gardens, neither of those are a mainstream choice. But I was like, great Gardens for the win. Spring Awakenings for the masses. And that's. That was me just being a dickhole of a 17 year old. But yeah, that's. That's what happened was Carolina Change and Piazza and before that I was just loving everything I saw. Absolutely everything.
- [36:10]
B
Yeah, for me, it was similar kind of a thing. It was probably when I was like 16, 17, and it was 99, 2000, 2001. So it was, you know, parade, Wild Party, Marie Christine, Caroline or Chan. I mean, that whole stretch there for me was really very formative.
- [36:28]
A
Did you see the Lachusa Wild Party on Broadway?
- [36:31]
B
Twice. Lucky pitch. I. Yeah, I loved it.
- [36:36]
A
I. What's not to love? It's all, first of all, that talent. But my friend is now in the cast of Funny Girl and I saw her this past weekend and we went backstage. I never know. Everyone's talking, taking photos, and I participate in all that too. But on two separate occasions, Peter, I should you not. I whip out my phone and I start to play. Queenie was a blonde, very low, so no one can hear what I'm doing. And I'm just starting to like, walk down the stage like Mark Kudish. And then I start to do the choreography that Toni Collett and the showgirls do and the Reba Dante Appalachian. And then I took a photo of the wings and I put it on my close friends and I said, it was here in these wings in 2000 that Toni Collette said, never again. Never again shall I do a Broadway musical.
- [37:21]
B
Oh, God, how heartbreaking. Because she really was so good.
- [37:25]
A
Oh, okay. We're so off topic, but I don't care. This is. Welcome to the pod. Talk about a lineup that is just perfect and killer. Best actress in a musical of the 2000 Tonys. Heather Headley and Aida Marin, Maisie and Kiss Me Kate. Toni Collette in the Wild Party, Rebecca Luker in the Music man and Audra McDonald in Marie Christine. That is a Murderer's Row.
- [37:46]
B
It's incredible. That is a category I looked at and I did not choose as a feeling like it was one that the Tonys got right. And not because I don't think Heather Hadley was awesome, but because I was so obsessed with Marie Christine in that moment in time. That. And I was so upset when Aida won the Tonys that it won at that time because I was so passionately wanting Michael John lachiusa, with his four nominations to take home a Tony that night. And when they announced Elton John for best score, I mean, it was like the gay gasp that created all the rest of them. It was the big bang of gay gasps. But I think I would have probably voted for Audra McDonald. But all five of them, so great.
- [38:27]
A
Phenomenal. That's also me. That's a year where you look at it and you go, oh, the nominators felt one way and the voters felt another way. Clear. I mean, very clearly. Yeah. I mean, 1994, with my carousel, obviously, like, the nominators only gave it the five, and the voters were like, right. And we give it all the five. But that 2000s Tonys. It's very clear that, like, the nominators liked Wild Party. I wish they liked it a little bit more to give George C. Wolf a rightful Direction nomination. And there are a couple more performers in there I would have liked to have seen get in. But also, like, I can't totally begrudge them when Sherri Renee Scott didn't get in for Aida and Amy Spanger didn't get in for Kiss Me Kate. Like, it's tough. It's just tough to get in there sometimes. It's like the Harvard and Yale of the Tonys. Like, sorry about it, you got waitlisted. But.
- [39:08]
B
But what's amazing about that to me, though, is keep in mind that 2000 is the first year that the acting categories expand to five. So any prior season, one of the five, like, actors who you just named wouldn't have been in the category of best actress in the musical.
- [39:21]
A
Yeah. And who would have.
- [39:23]
B
And we could. I don't even want to consider it. I mean, it probably would have been Audra because her show was the. Was closed a long time ago, I think.
- [39:31]
A
I think it would have been either Audra or Rebecca.
- [39:33]
B
And she'd won three already, so I wonder if it would have been like, a. All right, sit this one out.
- [39:39]
A
Yeah. Well, that's sort of how a lot of people felt when she lost was, oh, Audra's reputation is tarnished. And she's no longer, like, the queen of Broadway. And she was like, I had a great time. I went out, got drunk and realized I was pregnant two days later.
- [39:54]
B
And, you know, Marie Christine is an album that I visit quite frequently.
- [39:59]
A
I was looking actually that year of orchestrations because I was baffled that Wild Party didn't get an orchestration nomination. And that year it's Kiss Me Kate, Music Man, Swing, and Marie Christine, I think.
- [40:12]
B
Yes. And don't come for Jonathan Tunick here, because I like. Will defend that Tony.
- [40:15]
A
Oh, no, no, no, no. I would. I will absolutely keep the Marie Christine orchestration. What I was going to say was I would probably take out Swinger, Music man and put in Wild Party there just because the orchestrations of that Wild party are bonkers. Good. And especially when you listen and if you listen to a bootleg of it from the theater, because the cast recording is great, you can hear all the intricacies. But there's a stank on it when it was in the theater, starting with the fact that Adam Ellsberry Gunkle of the Pods talked about it a lot. Like, the drum kit for the cast recording is a little light. It's a lot darker of a beat in the theater, so you get that jazzy stank. But that's. That should have absolutely won score, no doubt. And I like Marie Christine a lot. There are some songs in there that I think are gorgeous. But Wild Party for me is just like. I have no notes on that score. I think it's a masterpiece from start to finish.
- [41:06]
B
The one thing I will say, though, about the Wild Party on stage on Broadway versus the recording is the tempos are a lot slower in the theater. Just. I think there's more information that you need to be processing at a time, and it's harder to do that. And on the album, they can just pump, or maybe they needed to do so in order to fit it on one disc. I have no idea.
- [41:26]
A
No, there's some slower stuff in the theater. Yeah. Although. Have you listened to the boot of the final performance?
- [41:33]
B
No. And I was at the second to.
- [41:34]
A
Last one, the final performance. I have it. I'll see if I can send it to you. Those tempos are on the faster side. It's. And it's one of those things like Patty's final performance in Evita, where you don't know if it's just like the energy in the theater so alive that everyone's kind of going a little faster or everyone was more comfortable with the music by that point. So because, you know, sometimes as shows continue and everyone's a little more comfortable playing, everything gets a little faster. Speaking of funny girl, that's sort of what happened on Saturday. But it's like. It's either that or it's like Toni Collette went to the conductor that day and she's like, get me the hell out of here. She's like, double time, one left. I got one left. Double time everything. But yeah, I mean, even. Welcome to my party. It's. It's. It go. It goes quick, but it's great. Like, it's all. That's the beauty of that score is that a little slower, a little faster. It's just so alive. But that was the time the Tonys didn't get it right. They got the lineup of best Actress, best perfect. But that is. That is something else. What I will say something. That year they got totally right was costume design, which was Martin Pakladina's for Kiss Me Kate, a revival I did see. It is burned in my brain, that production. And I think about it all the time. It was one of those, if not perfect, near perfect productions. Everyone was just right for what they were doing. The tone was correct, the design was gorgeous, the sound was good. I don't even begrudge them. Their orchestrations win because those orchestrations are really strong. I'll always remember watching Marin Maisie simulate childbirth on a picnic table during I Hate Men. It was a sight. I adore it. It was. It was glorious. So that show winning costumes, it's like. Seems like such a minor thing to talk about, but, like, they were always going to win revival. They were always going to win. Director Brian was always going to win. So, like, those wins are great, but they're not. They're not the sort of like, good choice. Tony's. It's more sort of like, yes. Tony's. You saw Stop. You saw the sign that said stop, and you stopped. You followed exactly the directions you needed to costumes. Like, they could have gone to. I think it was Music Man Aida and maybe Swing. Maybe There was.
- [43:40]
B
No, no, it's the green bird.
- [43:41]
A
Oh, the green bird. Oh, Ms. Julie Taylor.
- [43:43]
B
No, I do not remember that. I don't have that from memory, but I. Is that the only Tony that Aida lost that night, though?
- [43:50]
A
I think so. For Bob Crowley has yet to win a costume Tony Award. He is the Casey Nicola V Choreography Tony for costume designers because he's one set a bunch, but he's never one for costumes. And I. Yeah, I think that is their only Tony lost that night because they won score. No. Were they nominated for book? They weren't nominated for book. Yeah, they want. They want actress they won score, they won scenic design, they won lighting design. Yeah. They weren't nominated for anything else other than costumes.
- [44:20]
B
Yeah. I mean, I always think about Aida when you were saying before, you know, it was clear that the voters and the nominees, the nominators had different agendas that year. Like Aida was the best example. It did not get nominated in a lot of categories, but the category the nominate, the categories it was nominated in, it generally did well.
- [44:35]
A
Yeah. So I talked about this last week with Big where there are cases where people feel like there is a bit of a conspiracy against some shows when nominators go in and nominate. And it's less so now because the nominating body is actually a lot larger and they don't vote by preferential ballot anymore like they used to. They actually got rid of that after the big year because after some investigating they realized that there were people who put Swinging on a Star. And I think it was Chronicle of a Death Foretold like their number one and number two to keep Big and State Fair off the top four best musical list. But that year, I don't know if it was necessarily like everyone got together to like make a decision. But it was very clear that the nominators knew if they nominated Aida for musical, it would win and they didn't want that to happen. They really tried to give voters a choice among four very different shows. And you know, there's Swing, there's Wild Party, there's Contact and there's the Dead. And I would have voted for Wild Party, but I actually don't begrudge them Contact, which is not technically a musical, but was a very special theatrical experience and very well done. So I, I get it and I am not mad about that win. Even though I know we all look back and we like to joke, oh yeah, the non musical, one musical, I'm like, yes, but it was also a fabulous night of theater.
- [45:57]
B
Yeah, I at the time really begrudged contacted Victory, but I hadn't seen the show. And a couple months later, when I eventually made it to see the show, I went in with my arms crossed and I walked out with my heart full.
- [46:09]
A
Yeah, it was a wonderful evening. I saw it a little later in the run. I saw it when Charlotte d' Amoise had replaced Karen Ziemba. But it was a good time had by 12 year old me or maybe 11 year old me, I can't remember.
- [46:22]
B
Well, now that you've mentioned Karen Ziemba, I mean we sort of briefly went over the category of featured actress. In the Musical. This is not even one that I'm picking because I think Karen Ziemba was terrific. But just to look at how stacked this category is, also that it was Karen Ziemba, Eartha Kitt, Deborah Yates in Contact with the Girl in the Yellow Dress, and then Laura Benanti on her first Tony nomination, and Anne Hampton Calloway, both for Swing. But like we said, there's so many people who could have been in there who weren't. Sherrie, Renee Scott, Amy Spanger for Kiss Me Kate. But I also would have thrown Mary Testa in there for Marie Christine, which maybe not. I don't think that she stood a chance in 2000, but she did, you know, get her back. She bookended in 99 and 2001. But even Ruth Williamson in the Music Man, I remember there was chatter about her being a potential nominee there. It's a stacked category. And I do think, actually that the Tonys did. Right. Karen Ziembo was really, really stunning in that role.
- [47:12]
A
Yeah, there's. Have you read the book Nothing Like a Dame? Of course, I don't like to assume with anyone, but there are a lot.
- [47:22]
B
Of books I haven't read, but that one I've read.
- [47:24]
A
I've read four books in my life. One of them is Nothing Like a Dame. Karen Zamba talks about winning, and then I think she did some production or reading with Eartha, like, two years later, and they go, oh, yeah, Eartha, this is Karen Ziemba. You know, she wanted. She's a Tony winner. She won for Contact. And it all connects with Eartha. Like, all of a sudden, she realizes who Karen is and what she won for in the year that she won. And she just looks at her ever so Eartha, like, and she goes, oh, it's you. And it's. That's. That's such a great Eartha moment. I love that. And Karen, that's, from all accounts, was, at first, having only seen Charlotte in that role. I think that role is heartbreaking. And I can only imagine that Karen did wonderfully by it. So it is that Contact was most likely going to win musical. And Karen had been around for a while and finally was, like, getting her due after sort of like the heartbreak of Steel Pier, you know, Steel Pierre was supposed to be her Tony. And then that show didn't do what.
- [48:18]
B
They thought it would, which I totally hear. But I also think. I mean, Eartha Kate has. Eartha Kate won a Tony? I don't think she has never did. So I understand, you know, if that Story is true that like why she would even in a not funny way feel like, oh, that was my chance. That was my little lifetime achievement moment. And it didn't come to be. And she was great in the show when I the first time I saw it, I remember that the two gentleman sitting next to us had come in from Texas just to see Eartha Kitt on stage one more time. And they had told that to the usher as they were seated and the usher said she's great. The show isn't. Can you imagine before you sit down.
- [48:57]
A
To see the show what a bitch thing to say. And also just incorrect. That show is great. It's so great. I've often thought to myself if we were to do a star studded concert of that wild party, who would play Dolores? And I can't think of anyone just because Earth is impression on it is so extreme. But that's beside the point. Let's do one more category and then we gotta take a break. So I mentioned my costumes with Kiss me Kate in 2000. Let's do another one for you Petor.
- [49:32]
B
All right, let me throw in, here's one where I think it came down to two actors from the same show or that was sort of the conventional wisdom at the time. 2016 actor in a musical, Leslie Odom Jr. One for Hamilton. And I know there was a lot of talk going into the night about, you know, was Lin Manuel Miranda going to win for Hamilton. And I feel here that the Tonys really got it right.
- [49:54]
A
There was also talk of Danny winning for Fiddler that year.
- [49:58]
B
Yeah, that to me seemed less likely for whatever reason. It didn't feel like the revival from an awards perspective had a lot of momentum behind didn't.
- [50:09]
A
But again, Danny was very well loved. Tevye is just like, you know, it's that kind of a role. And he had won the Drama Desk and Outer Critic Circle because Hamilton had won everything the year prior. So when, when, you know, Danny wins all these precursors leading into the Tonys, there is some momentum behind him.
- [50:27]
B
Sure.
- [50:28]
A
I did not believe myself like you that he was going to. But there was talk of it in the same way that I think there was also talk of, of Lynn. I very much loved Leslie in, in Hamilton. I thought he was fantastic there. This was a case for me where the last two performances I saw in this category were Zachary Levi and Alex Brightman. And I think Alex might have been the last performance I saw going into the Tony. So I was actually very hopped up on his performance in School of Rock. Which I fully expected to hate, and walked out. Not hating. Didn't love, but didn't hate. And I pretty much put all of the thanks for that on him. And so I was sort of like, that's the kind of performance that I would totally reward that. Who is so good that I don't hate a show that I probably would have. Yeah.
- [51:20]
B
And it was sort of career making for him. There was a lot of hot energy behind Alex as just somebody who people could feel they had discovered.
- [51:26]
A
Yeah. But I agree with you about Leslie, especially because Hamilton swept that night in a way that I still question myself, which categories I might have handed over to another George C. Wolfe musical that year that I loved very much. But.
- [51:42]
B
Here. Here.
- [51:43]
A
Yeah, here, here. But Leslie, I don't actually begrudge his win for that because I recall seeing him at the Public and then seeing him on Broadway and just remembering, like, the magnetism that he had and the odd choices he was making. That all worked because I. I find so many times with performers in musicals and I won't name names and I won't say shows, but sometimes I find performances that are perfectly fine but very safe. And I really miss when aliens make weird choices that stick the landing. It's why I love Jennifer Simard so much, because that girl makes the oddest of choices, but they always land for me. And Leslie made some odd choices in Hamilton that all worked. And I love rewarding shit like that.
- [52:26]
B
And I think that it was supported by the writing. I think Burr is extremely well written as a character. And, like, obviously the show is Hamilton's, but for me watching it, I'm always more interested in Burr. He's Salieri, he's Javert. He's like all of those things that are really, you know, that he's the underdog, actually, in the story. And I think he gets some of the best material in the entire show. And he was so good in it that for me, predicting this, my heart, I was like, it's gotta be Leslie Odom Jr. Right? I mean, I personally actually would give Hamilton all of its acting awards. I think Daveed Diggs and Renee Lee Skolspray were all terrific in there, and I probably would have voted for them had I had that, you know, a ballot in front of me. But looking back on it, this is the one where I was like. I remember reading the day before people telling me that Lin Manuel was going to win and thinking, I hope it's Leslie Odom Jr. Because he was really great.
- [53:15]
A
Yes, he was. And it was the Correct choice. I will make my next pick in just a second. But first, we gotta take a break. You're the top.
- [53:27]
B
Yeah.
- [53:28]
A
You're an arrow collar. You're the top.
- [53:33]
B
You're a Coolidge dollar.
- [53:37]
A
And we're back. What a wonderful break that was. Peter, what did you do?
- [53:43]
B
I took a nap. I feel refreshed, and I'm ready to go.
- [53:46]
A
Fantastic. I have myself a second Clementine, and I look forward to eating it now that I have it. So this one, you might have to correct me on the pronunciation. And it doesn't seem like an odd choice. Now, some of these, we look back and we go, oh, of course. But I do want to kind of put people in the mind frame of this year. This is best book of a musical. Rachel Schenken for spelling bee. And is that right? It's Schenken, right?
- [54:13]
B
I think so. That's what I would have said.
- [54:15]
A
Yeah. She won over the librettos for Spamalot, Lightning the Piazza, and Dirty Rotten Scoundrels. And I mean, this is a very good lineup of best musicals in general. They're all very different from each other. I don't think any of them are particularly bad. The.
- [54:31]
B
And this category matches the best musical category exactly, too.
- [54:34]
A
It does. And score as well. And the thing is that Spamalot gets a bad rep for a lot of people because we look at the other three and go, oh, you know, why would Spamalot win? And I do think Spamalot is the least good of the four. But that's not because Spamalot is actually bad. It's just because these other three are just very strong in very different ways. But what I want listeners to understand in 2005 was going into the ceremony that night, there was a belief from a lot of people that Spamalot was gonna pull a producers and just win everything.
- [55:06]
B
Yeah.
- [55:07]
A
Yeah. Everyone knew Mike Nichols was gonna win. There was Sarah Ramirez winning was considered not a sure thing, but she was considered a front runner. And I'll get to her when later there was talk of them winning score and book and some design elements. Unless, you know, Chitty Chitty Bang Bang won set, and it didn't. And I have a design one for that as well. Spamalon was going in expecting to win at least six or seven Tonys. And so it only won three director, featured actress and musical and spelling bee won for its book. And I think that this show is a just so well constructed. But also, I don't know how they do it now, but on Broadway, there was an improvisational element to it. You know, we had people from the audience coming on stage to be other spellers, and the way that they could incorporate that night after night with all these variations was just so impressive. And the show was funny as hell, charming as hell. And I. I mean, I just think this book is one of the strongest of this century and should be studied by a lot of people. There are. There are like, a handful of librettos of the 21st century. I'm like, look at these. These are very good and, like, pretty concrete, and this is one of them. So I want to applaud the Tonys for picking the right winner for best book that year.
- [56:19]
B
And what I would say to that myself is I think the Richard Shenkin's book is awesome. And if you put a ballot in front of me, it would be a really hard choice. And I think probably in 2005, I would have voted for Rachel Shenkin. But I am a book writer myself, and what I find myself pulling off the shelf to look at from time to time is Craig Lucas book for Lighten the Piazza. There's some scene work there that is pretty astounding to me. And when I think about Lightning Piazza, which is a show that is so driven by its music, I often think of a book moment, you know, late in the show when Margaret says to her husband over the phone that, you know, they share something, a wealth or a depth of. Something like that, a wealth of feeling that we never did. And it's just a line, but it is so gutting and it so shifts the entire emotional trajectory of the piece that I think, in retrospect, I would have. What kept this off of my list was my love for Craig Lucas book of Piazza.
- [57:15]
A
Yeah, don't get me wrong, I think Lucas's book for Piazza is lovely. And Piazza is a show that also has stuck with me. And I come back to myself and just see the beauty and the detail in it. At the time, there wasn't as much momentum for his libretto, I remember.
- [57:32]
B
No, certainly not.
- [57:33]
A
Piazza was. Was a show that came out of those Tonys having done so much better than they ever expected to do. There. There they knew they had Vicky winning. That was pretty much a lock. Everything else was sort of hopeful. They were like, we could win score. We would like to win score. We might win orchestrations. We could win a design element or two because they had won some precursors, but again, those don't ever really mean anything. And so for Piazza to win score, orchestrations, actress, and then sweep the design categories was Beautiful and unexpected. And I was. I'm so glad they did it. Which actually leads me to scenic design. Michael Jurgen for lighting the Piazza lose, beating out Chitty Chitty Bang Bang Spamalot and Pacific Overtures. Chitty Chitty Bang Bang. Despite having not won, the drama desk was still considered the frontline runner that year simply because of it being the most of it being such a spectacle. The cars flying, you know, the huge sets that the now lyric, then Hilton and people said, oh, if it's not Chitty Chitty Bang Bang, it'll be Spamalot, because Spamalots will sweep otherwise. So for Michael Jurgen to win. I remember the message boards at the time because I was 15, I was still on the message boards. A lot of people who hadn't seen Piazza were like, I'm kind of baffled here, guys. Like, how could these two huge design shows lose? And the few of us who were pro Piazza were like, if you saw the show, you'd get it. Like, it's just. It's one of those sets that's not like massive. It is epic because it was a. It's a big design. It's the Beaumont. If you're filling out the Beaumont stage, you have to do it with something. But it was like poetry on stage that it looked and felt like Italy. As someone who's never been, but to me it looked and felt like Italy. And the way that Jurgen and Bart share were able to make all the different buildings sort of come together and create different locations the way they could make empty space feel full and full space feel empty. It was just a beautiful design and I'm so glad that they picked it over more. I don't say crowd pleasing. That sounds egotistical and esoteric, but fuck it, that's who I am. Over the crowd pleasing designs like Chitty Chitty Bang Bang, yes, that car flew, but so did Clara's hat. And we reward that.
- [59:44]
B
Fair. I also love the design of Lightning Piazza. I had seen. I was at school, I was in college during this period and I was at Northwestern, so I was near Chicago and had seen me out of town at the Goodman. So I also was aware of how the design had developed to a certain extent. And because I had liked the show so much when I saw it at the Goodman, I had scoured the Internet and seen photos and maybe even seen videos of the Intamin production that had preceded the Goodman, where the design was even a little bit darker. And obviously these are adapted to the theaters that they're in. And the Beaumont is A very different space than those other spaces. But I agree with you. I think that Tony's got it right here, that Michael Jurgens design is pretty terrific. But I do want to push back, actually, that my feeling contemporaneously was not that Vicki Clark was a lock. I actually remember feeling like, I really hope that she. Like that this happens for her, that it was clear she deserved it. But I also think that Christina Applegate had a real narrative behind her. You know, she had broken her ankle or whatever she had done to herself in the out of town tryout in Chicago. She had. They had been talking about canceling the show. And she rallied and, you know, kept all those people in their jobs, and there was a lot of emotional support for her. But I don't think it was enough to overcome the fact that Victoria Clarke was sort of more universally admired in the performance.
- [60:59]
A
I think that's sort of where we get to the discussion of what people are saying and what people are feeling. I talked about this a few times now, and I. The most recent example I can think of really is back at the Oscars of 2021, when, you know, that was the year of Nomadland Mank Minari. And I bring this example up all the time where Chadwick Boseman was considered such a lock because he had won all the precursors and was like, oh, it's him, it's him, it's him. And then I was reading all these articles about, they're. We're interviewing Oscar voters and they're like, well, Boseman's gonna win. But if I'm honest, Anthony Hopkins gave the performance I liked more. So I voted for Anthony just because, you know, I liked it more. And. But it's fine, Bose. Boseman's gonna win. And I read enough of those articles that I thought to myself, huh, I wonder if enough Oscar voters felt this way. And it turned out to be the case. And so with Vicki and Christina, you're absolutely right. Like, the narrative of Christina was really good. You know, big Hollywood star comes in, does okay out of town, then breaks her ankle. Oh, the show's gonna get canceled. No, she rallies. She's coming back, she's doing it. And there was that, you know, goodwill around her, but the overall response to her performance was underwhelmed. Like, everyone was like, we like her. We don't think she's doing a great job. And Vicky was someone who everyone did like, who everyone thought was doing a great job. And it was like, she's here. She's been amazing for 20 years. And now she's having the moment and she's in a show we like. Here we go. So at the time, it felt to me like she was a Locke. Maybe this is where, you know, I like having other perspectives because my line, the journey of my life that year. And maybe again, it's because I was so piazza focused, but I was like, yeah, it's. It's her. Because it was. It was her. Christina Sutton for Little Women, which had closed. Sheri for Dirty Rotten Scoundrels. And much as I love Sheri and good as she was, that show was about Norbert. He was the narrative of that.
- [62:53]
B
And she didn't enter until like 40 minutes into the show or something like that. I mean, it really was. I remember thinking, oh, they could have pushed her featured if they really wanted to, they could have.
- [63:02]
A
But I also stan a queen who gets. Who dares to be leading and not enter for 40 minutes. I think that is iconery right there.
- [63:09]
B
That she was fantastic in the show and also had built up similarly some goodwill towards her. And she'd been around a while and hadn't scored yet. And it was.
- [63:16]
A
Yeah, it was. It was. It was. It's a good lineup. Oh, and then we have Aaron Dilly for Chitty Chitty Bang Bang, who is another person, like, has been around for a few years. Goodwill. She, you know, the Millie thing happened, which could have been her moment, but it didn't happen. So she gets it for Chitty, it's. For me, it felt like it was Victoria. It was like Christina was a good option in theory. And then it was. Once you sat down at those two shows, you're like, you cannot deny that Vicky is in total control of this. And Christina, unfortunately, some of this eludes her. But, yeah, I don't know. This is what makes horse races, Peter.
- [63:48]
B
But you also are describing a thing or have described a thing that I love, which is I love when the predictions articles will do a will win and should win. Because when you see the should wins lineup, then you're. You know, the hair in the back of your neck goes, wait a minute, hold on. Yeah, like, if everybody thinks the same person should win, that's probably going to be the person who actually takes this.
- [64:05]
A
Yeah. That's how I felt when once on this island, one revival, because everyone thought it was nicely. Everyone thought it was gonna be My Fair lady. And I was like. But I really liked one Son of Silent. I was like, okay, then I think that could happen. We love to see it. Okay, let's do Another one of yours, my dear.
- [64:21]
B
Great. I'm gonna go way back in time, and I'm gonna say 1962, when Richard Rogers won best composer for no Strings, and he beat the score from Kwamena, or Kwamena, I don't know how to pronounce it. Like Kwamena. Thank you. He beat Jerry Herman's score for Milk and Honey. And I think the show that most people thought would win, I imagine, or most people think in retrospect, should win Frank Lester's score for how to Succeed in Business Without Really Trying. But I really stand by this one. I think the Tony's got it right. The score for no Strangers is one of my favorite old scores to throw on and just enjoy. It's jazzy. It's a departure for Richard Rodgers. It's his first foray into writing a musical after Hammerstein had passed away. And he does. You know, the metaphor of no strings is obviously emotional in the story, but in the pit, it's also literal. And I. I just think he comes up with some music that sounds unlike Richard Rogers. It's really jazzy. Apologies that my cats are fighting in the background, but it's really jazzy and really fun. I know. And neither named Grizabella. And I love the score. It's just. It's awesome. So full support. I think the Tonys got it right. 1962, best composer. I think what the Tonys got wrong is the fact that there's no lyricist. I mean, Richard Rogers, to be fair, is the lyricist of no Strings, but the category is for composer. That's one of the years where they had a category for, like, book, which they called author, and they had a category for composer. But lyricists were just completely unnominated and unfrazed.
- [65:52]
A
They would eventually go on to have a split Best. Best score, best lyrics, which I don't know if ever actually, that might have just been the year of Company that.
- [65:59]
B
They did that one time.
- [66:00]
A
Yeah. Yeah. If they had split. Split it that year in 62, I think lesser probably would have won lyrics, but we'll never actually know. That way lies madness to keep going down that road. No, I have no notes on that. The only reason why I know it's pronounced Kwamena is because of title of show.
- [66:18]
B
Bless you.
- [66:18]
A
Yes. The. They're the song in original musical. And they're singing about. It's an original musical original. And Jeff goes like Kwame. And so I learned about Kwamena because of Jeff. Jeff Bowen. That's his name. Yeah, it's. It I'll always remember Kwamena because of that. Like Kwame now or Starlight Express. Anywho, I do love that show. Okay, let me do one of mine now. Speaking of Cats, actually, best, another best scenic design. This was back when they were still combined in 1983, when Ming Cho Lee won for best scenic design for K2 over John Gunter Gunter for All's well that Ends well, David Mitchell for Foxfire, and most famously, John Napier for Cats. The design for the original Broadway production of Cats. I, I remember it to this day because I was again, a very, very sexy 10 year old when I saw it. And I had only seen the VHS with Elaine Page. I was like, yeah, that, that, that looks cute. And then I go into the Winter Garden Theater where it is just all around me. The design is all around me, very intricate. The claw, the silver claw coming out from the damn ceiling over my head to take Liz Calloway off of the tire up into the claw. It just, it blew my mind. That said, Ming choli set for K2, it's the Himalayan mountains and it's just, it's this really incredibly realistic, detailed, but also hyper theatrical design that's just a very, very striking image. And I love that the Tonys that year went for that over a very impressive grand design similar to, you know, what I was talking about with Piazza and Chitty and all that stuff. But I, having not actually been there in person to see K2, but have just like marveled over the, over the photos of that set. Many times I look at it, I'm like, you know what? Good on you guys. And also like rewarding Ming Cho Li, who is one of the most beloved designers in all of theater history.
- [68:22]
B
Yeah, I agree with you here. I've only ever seen the photos of K2, but if you imagine it's like a play about mountain climbing, that there's inherent danger in it, but like, how do you express that danger on stage? And that design really does evoke. It's tall and scary.
- [68:37]
A
Yeah.
- [68:38]
B
From the photos I've seen.
- [68:39]
A
Yeah. There's like the very first sentence I think of the Times review for. It talks about how the curtain goes up and just goes all the way past the proscenium and there's like no masking around the set. It just. That set went all the way up into the flies. So it really gave the impression of you are in deep in this mountain. And it is, it's just so fun. I love it when shit like that happens. One thing I want to say and then we can go to one of yours. I want to talk for a quick second about the 2014 featured actor in a play category, because we've talked about Murderer's Row. We've talked about when the Tonys just get a category of nominations, Right. And this is one where I looked at it and I went, oh, my goodness. Yes, this is right. And it. And it's so funny because it has three actors from the same show. So to have 60% of your category be from one show, and I'm still like, yeah, great diversity here.
- [69:30]
B
It's.
- [69:31]
A
I just think it's a really great lineup. We have Mark Rylance in Twelfth Night. Who's the eventual winner? Reed Bernie for Casa Valentina. Casa Valentina. Paul Tahiti for Twelfth Night as Mariah, Stephen Fry as Malvolio for Twelfth Night, and Brian J. Smith as the Gentleman Caller in Glass Menagerie. This is. I mean, I. I still think so fondly of this Twelfth Night. This is still my favorite production of Shakespeare I've ever seen. And I also saw the Richard III that they did in rep, and I did not like it as much, but also, I don't like Richard III that much, but I remember Mark Rylance just really finding all these nuances of comedy in the show. I'll always remember when Stephen Fry's Malvolio comes out with his yellow stockings and Mark Ryland says, how now Malvoli. And then sees him and goes, oh. And it was just one of those stupid, stupid line deliveries that we all laughed at. The way Paul Tahiti said, he's coming, madam. It's just all. It all is in there. I love it. Reed Bernie was so hateful in Casa Valentina in the most glorious, bitchy of ways. And then Brian J. Smith was just so endearing in Glass Menagerie. And my favorite scene of that production was him and Celia Keenan Bolger.
- [70:44]
B
I agree. I agree. I mean, I think they all were really great, and I did see all of them. I agree with the eventual. The eventual winner here. I think Mark Rylance probably deserved this. Yeah. But it's also, like, why vote against? Like, why bet against Mark Rylance? It's. Yeah, it's not going to happen for you if you. If you bet against Mark Rylance, you're going to lose.
- [71:02]
A
Exactly. More often than not, the man wins, so you might as well just put your speech in your back pocket and sit on it. All right.
- [71:11]
B
And I remember thinking that year that also Nick Westraight in Casa Valentina was also really terrific, but didn't get the same. There wasn't as much in the play for his character as there was for Reid Bernice.
- [71:22]
A
Exactly. I remember watching him and thinking that he was very compelling and that there was a lot I looked forward to seeing from him. But also it was that and the fact I was kind of thirsting after him. So the two go hand in hand. The two go hand in hand. All right, let's go with one of yours, sir.
- [71:39]
B
I'm going to go with 1996 Best Actress in a play. This was not a surprise when so Caldwell won for Masterclass. But this category is absolutely stacked and I saw 75% of it. The rest of the nominees were Rosemary Harris and Elaine Stritch for A Delicate Balance and Carol Burnett in Moon Over Buffalo. And I saw Delicate Balance and masterclass. All three of these women were like pretty astounding to my 12 year old, 13 year old brain. But Zoe Caldwell and I might actually have voted for again, like I was a voter. I was 13 years old. Elaine Stritch, had they put her in the featured category. But seeing her performance or even Rosemary Harris's terrific performance up against so called Will, who just dominated that play, she was in control. You know, one of those performances that I opted out of seeing the Tyne Daily revival because my memories of Zocald's performance in 1996, I just don't want to fuck with them. And she was. And I remember I had read the play because I really wanted to understand it when I saw it. And I was in the front row on tickets I had gotten from my bar mitzvah from my ophthalmologist. And she delivered certain lines to my mother, like by way of apologizing for, you know, there are lines where she curses and then she apologizes to the audience for cursing. But the night I was there, and I'm sure many other nights when there were children nearby, she looked at my mother and apologized to my mother for cursing in front of me. Like she was so alive in the text. And so it was just like this, the, the combination of actor and role. And I'm eternally grateful I got to see that.
- [73:16]
A
I wish I could have seen her live. I've only seen clips thanks to Aurora's Spider Woman. I. I will go to the library to watch it, especially because I want to watch the full final scene with her and Audra. Because reading the play, it doesn't feel like it ends with a on a great note. Not in terms of like happy or sad, but just, you know, you read it and you Go, oh, that's how it ends. And I just know, I just know that Zoe Caldwell and Audra acted that scene in a way where it felt complete. And I want to watch that. I. I mentioned it before. I don't think I actually ever said the story though, and I regret it. It was in the Love Valid Compassion episode. I have a Zoe Caldwell story and Tyne Daily and Terence McNally. I was invited to a benefit at the Players Club in Gramercy park that was honoring Aarons and Flaherty. And I think Anastasia was about to come into Broadway that year. So Derek, Lena and Christy Altomare sang a little piece from Anastasia. Derek, Klena, your boy and love Derek. Yeah, Derek's great. And someone else said something and something, but because it was anson Flaherty, Terrence McNally was there and Zoe Caldwell was there with Terence, as was Tyne Daly. And at some point in the night, I see the three of them on a chaise lounge just together and no one is bothering them. And that's great. We don't like to bother legends. But it was also sitting there, you know, I'm standing there, 16 year old, 1626 year old me in my little suit and my, the person who brought me was off with his, you know, friend. So I was kind of on my own and I went, I am never going to get this moment again. So I went on over, moseyed on over and I crouched down and I said, I have to just go down the line here. So apologies to do this like an assembly line, But I said, Ms. Daley, I am such a huge fan of yours. You, I think you're magnificent. I've seen you on stage. I wish I could have seen your gypsy. I adore your recording. I think you're great. I am such a huge fan. To which she stops me and goes, you're not a huge fan of mine. And I go, what do you mean? She goes, I've, like, look at you. I have much bigger fans than you. And I went, ah, Time Daily calling me thin in the best of ways. And then I said to Mr. McNally, I think you're wonderful. I think Kiss of the Spider Woman is one of the best librettos of the last 30 years. And I love, love Valerie compassion. I said, Ms. Caldwell, I've never seen you on stage, but I've only seen clips. And those clips are magnificent. I watched and this was around the time I think Aurora Spider Woman was just starting. So the clip of her and Audra doing the Lady Macbeth bit, the murder. Happy that clip was on YouTube. I was like, oh, this. These clips are on YouTube of you and Audra and they're wonderful. And she just looks at me like as if I've just told her that the walls of Jericho have come tumbling down. And Terrence McNally goes, There's footage of that? I go, yeah. He goes, can you send it to me? I said, how do I send it to you? And he writes down his email address and gives it to me. He goes, you send me these links. So I still have cataloged somewhere in my emails an email from Terrence McNally thanking me for sending him press footage of Masterclass. So that's my so Caldwell story. I live for another day. Also, like, Audra wasn't really considered the front runner that year for her category, was she?
- [76:32]
B
I don't really know because I entered the. The two women from Seven Guitars, Viola Davis, I think, and Michelle Shea. And then who was the. The fourth? Dominique?
- [76:41]
A
I don't know. This is a great question. I just remember, I know Audra has said she didn't expect to win, but Audra never expects to win, which is why we love.
- [76:48]
B
I mean, in 98, I remember vividly that people were predicting Sidi Lil Loca for the Lion King and that. That everyone thought that Audra was not going to win that award. And that one, you know, seemed to come as a huge surprise. Yes.
- [77:03]
A
Lois Smith for Barry Child.
- [77:06]
B
Oh, sure.
- [77:08]
A
I can't imagine anyone really had much hope on that one. But still, I mean, I think. I think Viola Davis was probably considered a front runner in that category or it kind of felt like a free for all for everybody. But yeah, I know that Masterclass and Ragtime were not considered locks for her. Those are both sort of considered surprises.
- [77:27]
B
Yeah. I mean, when this happened, you know, in 1996, I don't think I had any idea who Viola Davis was. I didn't really discover her until King Hadley ii and then it was. Was pretty blown away.
- [77:37]
A
Yeah. I first discovered Viola Davis in Knights of Rodanthe where she plays Diane Lane's sassy best friend. But that is not the point of this story. I remember King Headley II on Broadway. I didn't see it. I was still a little.
- [77:51]
B
But they did it on the Tonys. They did form from it.
- [77:54]
A
I miss when they would do things from plays on the Tonys. I've talked about this. I want them to go back to doing it.
- [77:59]
B
Yeah. I mean, the problem is they don't often do and do it.
- [78:02]
A
Right.
- [78:02]
B
I mean, look, specifically about the King Headley II thing. I remember that monologue that Viola Davis did on the Tonys in the theater was like, I didn't breathe during it. It was so compelling and fraught. And there's like, anything you would want from a performance. And then I remember watching it on the telecast and feeling like it hadn't really modulated for the camera all that well, which is amazing to think like, Bella Davis is such a great screen actor at this point and has been for many years. But I think it's probably really hard, as I imagine it is for all of these shows when they perform at the Tonys, to be playing for, you know, 1200 or, you know, 5000 people in the house while also playing to a camera that's a few feet from your face. I imagine that is extremely difficult.
- [78:41]
A
Sure. Maybe the. The. What the compromise could be is like a minute clip from the theater. Like, film it sometime the week before in front of a live audience in their theater and just show like a minute of the show. Maybe that'll be a. I just. I just would like. I would like plays to get a bit more representation. But.
- [78:59]
B
But we digress in 89, when they do clips from the plays again. The Heidi Chronicles, I love that clip. It's Peter Friedman and Joan Allen doing the scoops wedding scene. And it's a scene that reads really great on the page. But when you see these two performers, who they've been, you know, Daniel Sullivan has directed the shit out of them. And it is. The whole scene comes to life in a way that, like, I would never have imagined. No.
- [79:26]
A
And I think that's the same year as Prelude to a Kiss with Mary Louise Parker and Timothy Hutton. That's another really good one. Or is that 19? That might be.
- [79:33]
B
I think that's the next year.
- [79:35]
A
That might be the next year. But.
- [79:36]
B
So they were really trying around then. In 93, they did the whole thing where they were like, here are scenes from the plays in different stages of production. So, like, one of the scenes, I think Sisters Rosenzweig, they did the actors sitting around the table. Right. And then they did Angels in America. They did the, like, very end, I think, of Act 1 of Angels of Millennium Approaches with as a sort of like a dress rehearsal kind of a thing. And I don't remember how they did Song of Jacob Zulu, but. And I don't remember what was the other nomination there. But regardless, they just. They were trying to figure out how to present these plays effectively. And it just hasn't always been successful.
- [80:12]
A
No, it hasn't always been successful, but it also hasn't always been successful for musicals. So I say let's just take a chance on plays again. Everybody let me go on to one of man. Oh, this is one you and I disagree on. So I would love to have a disagreement for a second. 1982 best score. I said Mauryeston for nine and you say Krieger and Ian for Dreamgirls. First of all.
- [80:38]
B
Well, you know, I actually don't even know if it's Dreamgirls for me. It's. The whole category is. Is great, right? There's Dream Girls, there's nine, and there's also Sondheim for Merrily We Roll Along Song. I think nine is. And there's Joseph, an amazing technical dream code Sorry that I.
- [80:52]
A
Which is delightful. Let us. Let us not shit on.
- [80:54]
B
In its own way, nine is also a really great score. But if I were. If you're gonna like shoot me in a rocket to the moon and tell me I could take 10 albums with me, I would have Dream Girls and Merrily both on my long list. I'd probably settle and keep. Dream Girls would probably be the one that made it into the 10 out of that. But it would be hard for me to not cast a vote for Dreamgirls or Merrily because I find them so much more exciting when I listen to the original cast albums.
- [81:23]
A
Oh no. There's a. There's a yossification in Dreamgirls that I love very dearly. That said, when I. It's when I start analyzing these scores that I kind of go, okay, which one is doing the heavy lifting more? And I think that the score of nine. I think. I think nine and Merilee are actually very interesting. Interesting siblings. They're kind of like kissing cousins because they are both fantastic scores that are upholding a book that is not fully there. But I do think that nine does a better job of it. Only because with nine I can watch it and still feel like I'm watching a. A put together show. Whereas merely I've always felt like I am watching a great score just constantly be failed once the song ends and the book begins. I know they've made revisions. I've seen revised versions. It has gotten better, but it has never fully worked for me. And not only that, and maybe this is because I'm a complex asshole. But even though they've made the show make more sense and have streamlined it a bit, I still prefer the original version of the score. I prefer Rich and Happy to that. Frank. I don't necessarily need the Blob. And I mean, that overture is incredible. There's so much about it. I love the Broadway brassiness of the original version.
- [82:35]
B
I heartily agree with you actually about the score. And it's different versions. The one thing I would miss if we only ever had the original is the opening it back to Gussie's song, She's Only a Boy. Maybe the moon is cheese stuff.
- [82:46]
A
Okay, so the moon is.
- [82:47]
B
I know that there. Okay, so it is cheese. But some people dislike that section. I, for whatever reason, have always found it thrilling. Maybe it's Michelle Pak's fault, but I really enjoy it.
- [82:56]
A
Yeah, no, Michelle Pak and Elizabeth Stanley. No, I love that. I'm always down to give Gussie more to do. And I say that having just said Nick's the Blob, but I just, I just don't find the Blob very interesting of a song. And also a little too self aware for Gussie to be singing. But we digress that I think it's also just. There's something. I find the score of nine to be just so unique and special and precious that yes, like gun to my head, I probably would pick Dream girls to go out of the space with just so I can have like that energy and those Harold Wheeler orchestrations plowing me for days. But also the Cleveland Derrick's vocal arrangements, which have never sounded better than the original cast because no one is over singing. They are singing accordingly to the time period which I love.
- [83:47]
B
Cleveland Derek did the vocal arrangements.
- [83:49]
A
Sure did. Sure did.
- [83:51]
B
I had no idea. That's incredible.
- [83:53]
A
Yeah. And in fact, if you watch, there's a. There's a TV special where they're auditioning actresses out in LA for the LA production that Jennifer Holiday will eventually star in. And he's the one out there auditioning people, not Michael Bennett.
- [84:08]
B
Wow.
- [84:08]
A
Yeah.
- [84:09]
B
I had no idea.
- [84:10]
A
Yeah. The things we learn. I don't even know how I found that out, but I remember finding that out and just going, okay, Cleave and Derricks, you get it. But I mean, those vocal arrangements are insane. And I love watching the video bootleg of Dreamgirls where they just get applause for random vocal moments all the time. The Cadillac are the smoothest sound and the way they blend on fake your way to the top. I want to say one little tangent and then I swear we're going to move on something that bugs me. And I'm so glad that Sheryl Lee Ralph is on record as to saying this is Dina's now who are wonderful vocalists but overseeing the role of Dina.
- [84:56]
B
Right. And the whole point of it is that that's not who she is.
- [84:59]
A
Yes, she is not a bad singer. She's just a purely okay singer. And that is what gets them to the next level is that her voice is so not powerful that they can cross over. And she. She's even said in the original run of the show she would do nightclub acts and sing her normal way so people would know she actually was a good singer. And she said, you lose the dramatic tension if you have Beyonce wailing out. Listen next to Jennifer Hudson also wailing out. And I am telling you. And I think there's a bit of an ego to some performers these days where it's like, well, I do want the audience to know that I am a good singer. And I also want the audience to know that I'm smarter than my character. Which is why so much comedy now is like, wink, wink to the audience. I'm like, no, no, no, your character is dumb. And I don't just be in it. Yeah, just be the character. But so I love that original blend of the three of them on Fake youe Way to the Top when you have Loretta Devine doing and then Sheryl Lee Ralph and her head voice, it's just so smooth. And then they blend so well. And I love that. And I don't love it when it is over sung. So I just want to say that little diatribe. But I still maintain, I think that this score of 9 is a deserving winner. And especially because it is a tough one. Because Catch me on the right day, Peter. Catch me with the right amount of coffee. And I'll be like, you know what? Dream Girls or Catch me with a glass of. And I'll be like, fuck it merrily. And then catch me on a day where I'm feeling super antagonistic or I'm in a room full of assholes. And I go, joseph, just.
- [86:26]
B
I don't believe that. I don't believe that for a second.
- [86:28]
A
You know, what I actually love about the Joseph Tony performance that year is that it is just the whole show in four minutes. They do 10 seconds of every song in four minutes.
- [86:38]
B
Which is basically what into the woods did in its original production and in the 2002 revival where they do that. You almost try to get the whole show into five minutes. It's so fast.
- [86:49]
A
I love the original one with Angela Lansbury doing the voiceover. And then she gets to end the moral of the tale. And Felicia Rassad just starts to go, careful. The things you say, oh, my God, guys, you should be grateful that we're not doing video. But you just missed Peter's cat fully going across the screen, Jellicle style.
- [87:08]
B
She was like, I prefer my witch. Thank you very much.
- [87:10]
A
Yes, listen, there is a witch. Her name is Bernadette Peters, and she is. We Stan. We Stan. That queen.
- [87:18]
B
Sometimes there are roles that it's very hard for somebody else to come into, which is also why it's so funny to think that she did such a brief run. Run in that original production, but that filming just cemented her witch in the minds of multiple generations.
- [87:31]
A
I mean, that filming. It's so funny. We think about that filming, just how iconic and perfect it is. And it is. But it also come. They filmed it at the end of the run, and a lot of them had to come back to do it. But at that point, they all knew that show so well in and out. Like, they knew what worked. They knew how to play off of each other. They knew how to land certain moments. Like, they had a lot of time to really get the minutiae of that material down, which is why it's just so incredible, because they are just nailing everything. The. Some of us don't like the way you've been telling it.
- [88:03]
B
Yeah. I mean, her readings, they're unsurpassable, and people keep trying and bless them, but it's just. I don't know if you'll ever be able to climb that wall.
- [88:10]
A
I mean, you try to do Bernadette's stepmother and Cinderella, you can't. It's just. It's laughable. It's laughable. All right, give. Give me one of yours. Quorin.
- [88:24]
B
Let'S go. We'll do a Director. This is 2003. Joe Mantello directing Take Me out and winning the Tony Award. Joe was in the category with Lawrence Boswell for A Day in the Death of Joe Egg. Robert Falls for Long Day's Journey, who I think had a lot of momentum behind him going in there. And Deborah Warner for Madea, which was closed but had been quite celebrated. And to me, having seen three of the four of these, it was Jo's direction of Take Me out that took a really great play and made it fantastic. That I remember feeling that there was energy in the staging of the play. And again, I know we were talking about stagings before, but this was one where I think whatever bells and whistles Joe threw into it really helped tell the story and make it as exciting and energizing as possible.
- [89:17]
A
Agreed. And correct me if I'm wrong. I may absolutely be rewriting history here, but I feel like with Joe Mantello as a director on Broadway, because he had done some stuff in New York pre Love, Valor, Compassion around this maybe like a year or two before Angels, he had done some off Broadway stuff. But Love, Valor, Compassion was really the play that made him land as a director on Broadway. And then he didn't really do anything for the rest of the 90s that maintained that level of you're here, you're a director, we're here to watch. And I feel like Take Me out was sort of not a return, but like a, no, no, no. We were right to celebrate him before. Like he's back with something really great again.
- [89:56]
B
Yeah, I think Take Me out is sort of when he becomes like a hot Broadway director versus like a hot off Broadway director. But also Take Me up again. I didn't begin off Broadway. It began at the Donmar in London. I actually had seen it off Broadway and on and off Broadway it was three acts and on Broadway it was two acts. And again, you know, credit to Joe Mantello and Richard Greenberg, they were able to trim this three act play, make it a, you know, one intermission piece and keep all of the energy, if not actually make it more exciting.
- [90:25]
A
That does make sense to me though, that it used to be three acts, because act two takes a couple of turns from like, are we, Is this still the play? And that's just something that I, I felt. And the last revival, which is also why I'm not, I wasn't the most on board with that revival winning. But also I was such a. How I learned to drive Stan that season that like, you could not tell me. You could not tell me that anything else was better. I, I, I, I'm still kind of in that haze. I still won't hear it, but I will allow people to have their feelings about other performances and productions.
- [90:57]
B
I still remember seeing Take Me out on Broadway. Cause I had seen it off Broadway during fan Thanksgiving break and I was in college. And then during spring break, a bunch of my friends were in New York and I was like, no, let's go see this play on Broadway. And I remember the front row seats in that theater were $19. And even then I was like, ooh, a student rush under $20. This is exciting.
- [91:14]
A
Yeah, that's, I, I miss when Rush was actually affordable. Not that it's like super expensive now, but it's, it was, it was a little easier. It was easier back in the day.
- [91:25]
B
I mean, I touched the date off my student ID in 2005, but I don't think I. I could still use it.
- [91:30]
A
No, I still have my college id, but no, I can't still use it. Thank God for tdf, I guess. You know, this is, this is a good win and this is also a very good lineup. I had not seen any of these plays, but this was around the time I was getting into plays because this was. This was the same year as I Am My Own Wife, was it not? Yeah, yeah. Because.
- [91:49]
B
No, I actually don't think it was because Brian Denhy won and so did Jason Mitchell Maze.
- [91:55]
A
You're correct. Jefferson Mays won the next year. So, yeah, I think I. And my Own Wife was when I really started to go down the play route. I think before. Yeah, the only two plays I had seen on Broadway at this point were Metamorphoses and A Thousand Clowns of Tom Selleck, oddly enough. And yeah, my grandma wanted me to see it and I'm glad I did. But then, yeah, once I started seeing.
- [92:19]
B
7,000 clowns with Judd Hirsch, when he replaced, it was like the 90s roundabout revival and it was supposed to be Robert Klein and Jane Addams. And then during either rehearsals or previews, Robert Klein and Jane Addams left and Judd Hirsch came in and Marin Hinkle from Maisel. No way.
- [92:37]
A
Maren Hinkle would have been good.
- [92:40]
B
Yeah. And she was. I remember seeing it.
- [92:41]
A
Yeah. I mean, also, for anyone who wants to watch A Thousand Clowns, you can watch the movie version with. With our queen, Ms. Barbara Harris, who. Stay tuned. We're going to be honoring her on our Instagram in the next couple of weeks, but not in the way you expect, though. So. Yeah, no, this is a good win. I'm down for this. I'm down for this whole category. These are all good directors.
- [93:01]
B
Yeah.
- [93:03]
A
I've heard so many amazing things about that long day's journey. I. I would like to go to the library to watch that. We have Dennehy, we have Redgrave, and that's also Philip Seymour Hoffman and Robert Sean Leonard. Is it not?
- [93:14]
B
Sure is.
- [93:14]
A
I mean, talk about just you up with acting.
- [93:19]
B
Yeah. I mean, it was a star studded affair. Dennehy and redgrave1. I'm pretty sure the whole revival won.
- [93:26]
A
They did win revival. I remember that.
- [93:28]
B
Although I do remember actually that going into it, people weren't sure what Brian Dan, he was going to win. It escapes me now. Who the other front.
- [93:35]
A
I think there was talk of Izard possibly winning for Day and the Death.
- [93:38]
B
Death.
- [93:39]
A
Because that play has never totally gotten its due. And he was considered to be quite the surprise in it. Say what? Oh, sorry, she said, I apologize, everybody. Was Eddie going by he though at the time of the Tonys that year though?
- [93:55]
B
I think so. Yeah, I think so.
- [93:57]
A
So I, I'm going, I'm backtracking that respect. But yes, she, he at the time, she now was considered quite the not revelation. It wasn't like they had reinterpreted the role, but just that their Broadway debut was so strong and there was the celebrity quota to it. But yeah, I don't think then he was considered a lock by any means, I feel like.
- [94:19]
B
No. And then he had just won, you know, but four years earlier.
- [94:21]
A
Yeah. And I feel like it was between Red Grave and Fiona Shaw from a DEA that year.
- [94:27]
B
But that one at the time, you know, again, I was in college and I was not as adept necessarily at reading the Tea Leaf, but that one felt like Vanessa Redgrave kind of had it more locked up.
- [94:37]
A
Yeah. And again, that comes from. Oh, your show is still running. There can still be. There's an energy around a still running show that it's hard to maintain when your show has closed. And I just remember at the time and again, it's been a long time. And then I was young, I was young and naive. I remember the. There was a lot of talk from pundits of being more sort of like now that it was an all out battle, but that it just, it came down to those two. That those were the only two options to win, I believe.
- [95:06]
B
Fun fact, that was the one random year of my life where I kept like a GeoCities website about the Tonys that year with predictions. And I just want to get on the record that I predicted Michelle park for Hollywood Arms, which did obviously come to pass but was not expected by the pundits who are getting paid for their predictions.
- [95:26]
A
We love it when that happens. I mean, listen, pundits are wrong all the time, I'm wrong all the time. But I remember I was talking about this, I think last week on Gold Derby, all the pundits for months, none of them had Top Dog Underdog listed as a nominee for best revival of a play this year. And I was like, really?
- [95:44]
B
What? It's funny because my one outrage from when I looked at the nominations this year, my largest outrage, I should say, was not seeing Kennel Leone there. Yeah. Because I thought that revival was just sort of hands down the. My favorite revival this year. I think I have to go back and look at everything to be really sure. But if I'm going to be, you know, hyperbolic, I'm going to say yes.
- [96:06]
A
You know, it was favorite of the year. It was great. And I'm so glad that the two of them were nominated. Both of them. I'm trying to. There. Yeah. There are two directing nominees this year that I probably would swap out for Kenny Leon and then what's His Face for Prima Facie. But I won't say who's. We can get down that road later this month, y'. All. But it's overall a decent category. I'm gonna go to one of mine. Now we have Best Leading Actress in a Play of. I think this is 2007. Julie White for Little Dog Laughed. She's beating out Eve. Best for Moon for the Misbegotten, Susie Curse for Heartbreak House, Angela Lansbury for Deuce, and Vanessa Red Gray for Year of Magical Thinking. I recall this really being down to Eve Best and Vanessa Redgrave. I rem. This is what I recall, and this is something where. There's something where I. Because I have. I was at a Tony party and we all had our predictions down, and none of us had seen the majority of these nominees, so we were literally just going off of, like, Theater Talk and the New York Times Roundtable and all stuff like, okay, what are the people who've seen these performances say thing. And on the day of the party, like, Julie. Julie. They are announcing Julie's category. And as they're announcing, I shout very loudly from my gut, I'm changing my prediction to Julie White. Because I had in the back of my brain some of what we were talking about earlier. While all these pundits were predicting either Eve or Vanessa, they all were saying, like, but you know who was really great was Julie White. Like, she really kind of kept that show chugging along. And I was like, like, huh? If everyone's thinking this, it could happen. And then when they were naming all the nominees, the theater was really loud for Julie. I was like, yep, I'm sticking to it. It's Julie White. It's Julie White. And then she won. And I felt like a fortune teller. But that is. That is. Correct me if I'm wrong. That's the energy I recall going into that night was that those were the two that people were talking about the most.
- [98:02]
B
Yeah. Oh, I think so. I. I don't know that I. I didn't feel like Vanessa Redgrave was as much in the conversation as Eve Best. I think they were both certainly in the conversation, but I think the consensus had kind of circled around Eve Best a little bit. To this day, 2007 remains the One Tony Awards ceremony I actually attended. And I was there with a friend of Julie White's. And I had in the week leading up to the Tonys, been like, Julie's gonna win. I know she's gonna win. Trust me, I'm always right. And as we sat there and they started to announce the nominees in the category, my heart was, was pounding because suddenly I was like, what if I have gotten my friend's hopes up and she's all excited to see her friend win a Tony Award and like, she's gonna glare at me and be so annoyed that she took me to this ceremony and yada, yada, yada. And I was quite relieved to see that Julie White did win. And I agree with you, she deserved it. The only performance here I did not see, to be fair, was Vanessa Redgraves. But at the, but at the time, I felt pretty strongly that Julie White's was who I'd seen off Broadway and on twice, I think, I think I saw A Little Dog Left three different times. She was fantastic.
- [99:09]
A
She was. It's, it's. I love Julie. I've, I've been on the record as loving her so much. And one of the replacement actresses in a show where everything kind of sparks in a way that I didn't know could. When I saw her replace Sigourney Weaver in Vanya and Sonia and Masha and Spike, a play that I had already really loved. And then I saw her in it for, I believe it was Billy Magnussen's final performance. And I was like, oh, I didn't know I could love this play more than I did already. But like, Julie White has really elevated this part of. Yeah, Masha. Masha is that part. And I think she's just so incredible. You know, it was. I recall a lot of fervor around Eve Best. I feel like she won all the precursors and like the narrative was sort of like, she's eclipsing Kevin Spacey on the stage and like, that role is just such a role. Vanessa, again, it's like those on paper predictions where people are like, it's Vanessa Redgrave in a one woman show that is just very depressing. And she's holding it, she's holding down the fort.
- [100:09]
B
But she also, again, like, she'd won a few years earlier. It's not like this woman had not been honored sufficiently. And I think Julie White kind of, I mean, the play itself and her Performance. I think it just connected with like theater industry.
- [100:25]
A
Absolutely. When. When Little Dog Laughed got nominated for play as well. I feel like that was an indication that there was a lot of love for her performance because the play had closed by that point and did not last very long on Broadway. And it's almost felt like it didn't make much of an impression. They stupidly opened at the Then Court now James Earl Jones Theater, which is. That's a theater you really can't open at unless you have momentum behind you or a major star. If you are a play with no names or a musical with no names, good luck trying to get traction because you are so far out there, you are not in the thick of the hullabaloo of the streets.
- [101:03]
B
And I think another thing, Matt, that Eve Best may have had going against her that night is the fact that that revival came really quick on the heels of the prior moon for the Misbegotten revival. We're talking about seven years later to ask people to sit through a three hour play again, you know.
- [101:19]
A
Yeah.
- [101:20]
B
When people had really enjoyed it a few years earlier with Terry Jones and Gabriel Byrne.
- [101:26]
A
Yeah, that's true, that's true. And it's very difficult to compete with the memory of Jones, you know what I mean? Castane tried to do it with the Heiress and it just was losing battle, baby. But she's doing such a good job.
- [101:40]
B
Now in Doll's House, which I have not seen yet.
- [101:44]
A
I've said it before, I'll say it again. I did not think I was going to like this revival of A Doll's House, Peter, because I don't like Ivo Van Hoffe. And this revival was giving me very Van Hoffe vibes. And I went in and by the time it was over, I said, fuck, this is compelling and I really enjoyed it.
- [102:00]
B
Oh, funny. Because I mean, obviously it's Jamie Lloyd and again, I haven't seen it, but the vibes I get from it are very like the Betrayal revival which I had seen in London. And then they brought the same cast here in a production directed by Jamie Lloyd, where it is that kind of like really sp. Or, you know, it's just the three of us in this play and the set is going to be real small.
- [102:17]
A
Yeah, I actually didn't see that portrayal, but I. I have a friend who saw it who is not a play person. They are very big on musicals. They see Wicked every chance they can get. But he had said to me, he said, you know, Matt, I've never seen acting that good before. And I said, john. Not John Miscavige, everybody. My other friend, John. I said, John, look at you seeing a Pinter playing, enjoying it. Congrats, Jamie Lloyd. I, I, yeah, I think just anytime I see something that's like we're, I'm always like, oh God, is this going to be a Van Hoffe situation? Or they can have like camera phones and shit and like dance around in milk and they didn't. Let's do another category. I'm gonna pick one for you.
- [102:58]
B
Great.
- [102:59]
A
Because I want to talk about this one. I love, I love obsessing about her and I haven't obsessed about her in years. 2004, Ms. Anika Noni rose winning for Caroline unchanged. And I adore this win. I, in my mind I'm looking at, I'm looking at your precursors here with Isabel Keating winning for the drama desk for Boy from Oz. Karen Zamba winning the Outer Critics Circle where Anika Noni Rose wasn't even nominated. In my mind, in my 14 year old brain having just seen Anika like the month prior, I just remember being like, she gonna win, she's gonna win.
- [103:34]
B
Like it's, yeah. It seems so obvious in retrospect and maybe even at the moment because her performance was like, like kind of the heart of that show.
- [103:42]
A
Yeah.
- [103:43]
B
But for whatever reason, she just did not make an impression in the precursors. And I don't think going into it that there was a lot of momentum for her. But it's like kind of feels like it's just the best. It's one of those, like should win.
- [103:54]
A
Yeah.
- [103:55]
B
Like just it look, it's the performance of the category and a really good category. I mean, Beth Fowler from Boy from Oz is there as well as Isabel Keating from Boy from Oz. There's also Jennifer Westfeld in the Donna Murphy Wonderful Town revival and as you said, Karen Zamba for Never Gonna Dance. It seems like it's a no brainer that Rose would win.
- [104:11]
A
Yeah.
- [104:12]
B
And I'm really glad that she did.
- [104:14]
A
As am I. I'm, I am sad we don't have Vanne Cox for Caroline or Change in this category as well, who was so heartbreaking and funny in that show. Not that she would have beaten Anika, not for a second because Anika just pissed all over that stage. But. And it's hard, it's hard to talk sometimes about a person, performance that someone's given and while comparing it to another performance of that same role someone else gives and like not be shitting on that person. I don't Want to shit on Samantha Williams, who I actually saw this year in Dear World, and she was stunning. That girl is stunning. But seeing her as Emmy in the last revival of Caroline or Change just sort of reminded me how, how brilliant Anika was and how still Anika could be. Like the way that they had the ending of the show where Anika just stared out at the audience and stared you down as she did the final piece of music. It just, it. It just grabbed you by the coat and kept you there. And I thought to myself, 14 year old me, who knew nothing of the world or really of art, I just thought, who the fuck is this girl? I am obsessed with you. And when she won, it just felt so correct. And I feel like we all think it that way.
- [105:27]
B
I wonder if, you know, look, the reality is she was 20 years older than the role was when she played the role. She was like 33 years old. Not quite 20 years. 15, 16, 17 years older than the role really is. But I wonder if some of that allowed her to bring that incredible grounding to it. But the whole notion in the show that she is this next generation, you really felt by the end of that piece like you were in good hands and you wanted to the. The sort of stoic fighter that you knew lived in her.
- [105:54]
A
Yeah, yeah. And. And she's still so good at being a child. Like that first act when she's doing the. You remember Fun Mama down at the parking lot alongside the A and W. She's just, she's having a teenager's good time and she's being carefree and obnoxious, but you're not hating her. Like, that's the thing is there are times when Emmy is a like and like, she just being nasty to her mother, who's not.
- [106:20]
B
She's a teenager.
- [106:21]
A
Yeah, she's a teenager.
- [106:22]
B
She.
- [106:23]
A
And. And a teenager who's a bit holier than thou. And you know, she gets a little bit of information that her mother doesn't know about the world and she thinks that makes her smarter and better and stronger. And it's cute for a second until she just whips around and is nasty at the Hanukkah party and then she checks herself her. I hate the buses the way she sings. Mama, I'm sorry I called you a maid. Mama, I'm sorry I called you a mate. This. Honestly, this whole podcast, Peter, is very much a Janine Tesori Stan account because I mean, Caroline or Change Violet, Fun Home. I adore Kimberly Akimbo, even Millie with all of its problems. Has so many jazzy bops to it. And Shrek has such a fun score. I, I just, I. I love that woman. And I want her to keep working until she's dead because it will please me.
- [107:16]
B
I love that you pull out that. It's not a line reading, it's a lyric. It's sung. But that moment, mama, I'm sorry I called you a maid in the way it sung because it kind of reminds me of a couple other cast albums where sometimes when a soprano really holds back, it can be so touching. It's on Wicked when Kristin Shanawith is like, you can't have all you ever wanted. It's so restrained and gentle and it's like, like quarter voiced. And I love that. Or even like when Alice Ripley Inside show is like, but you're the man. I love to. To buddy at the end. It's like you could really make a meal of that and instead you. She plays just like the simple heartbreak of it and it really translates on an album.
- [107:57]
A
Absolutely. And. And the also being able to do musicality while also conversational. It's something that Emily Skinner is really good at. It actually bugs one of my music director friends. I won't name names because he might be working on Broadway right now, but he's always like, can Emily Skinner, like, hold a note longer than two beats? I'm like, yes, she can. But the actress in her knows when it's not necessary, which is what I love about her sideshow. When she goes the feeling love is normal. Hiding it is not like she's not extending any of it because she's acting. She's so good at it. And Anika does the same thing. Kristen does the same thing. It's what I love about how Kristen begins for good. She's like shortchanging all of the notes because she's so overcome with emotion. I've heard it said, said. Oh, God. You know what I love, Peter? Good actresses. I love good actresses.
- [108:40]
B
Me too.
- [108:41]
A
They can fuck me up. They can twist my arm and choke me. I love it. All right, I picked one of yours. You want to pick one of mine?
- [108:50]
B
Yeah. I want to talk about featured actress in the musical 2005, SATA Ramirez for Spamalot. Okay, yeah, tell me. I'm curious. I mean, again, I saw SATA Maria do this role. I think they were fantastic in the part. Part. Super curious why this to you is one that stood out as like the Tony's nailing it.
- [109:08]
A
So first of all, once again, talk about a goddamn murderer's row. Here we have Sara Ramirez for Spamalot. We have Jan Maxwell for Chitty Chitty Bang Bang. We have Joanna Gleason for Dirty Ron. Scoundrels. Kelly o' Hara for Piazza, and Celia Keenan Bolger for Spelling Bee. I mean, truly. Talk about an orgy I want to go to now. I love all these women. And going in that night, I was rooting for Kelly, having just seen Sarah. Actually, no, I was seeing Sarah in Spamalot, I think, a month later. So I hadn't even. I wasn't even knowing what she was doing in that show. And I saw her in the show, and she was extraordinary. But I thought to myself, well, it's the role. She's got these big, powerful songs. How can you not steal the show when you're doing all this? And then two years later, and again, it's hard to talk about this and make it sound like I'm shitting on someone. So let me just remind everyone how much I adore Marin Maisie, how much I loved her in Kiss Me Kate. I adored her in the King and I. I saw her in Spamalot about two years later, and by that point, the show was no longer, like, the huge hit that it was. It was still doing okay, but it wasn't selling out every night. And Marin, who is. Who was a very funny woman again, simulating childbirth and Kiss Me Kate and a glorious singer. But there was something a little off. She wasn't. The jokes weren't landing quite as hard, and the songs weren't blowing the roof off quite as much. And I thought to myself, oh, Sarah actually did something very special with this role that does deserve rewarding, because she made the role seem better than it was. She made her songs seem better than they were. Whereas, and this is not me saying, like, it one thing deserves it over another, because, again, if you were to say, well, Kelly o' Hara actually won that year, they counted the ballots wrong, I'd be like, okay, yeah, no, sure, you know, Kelly deserved it. Or you'd be like, oh, Celia one. Actually, I'm like, yeah, sure, totally give it to her. But why I'm happy Sarah won is I think it's so rare to take material that's not fantastic, especially in comedy where, like, there's a barometer to know how you're doing in a comedy. You know, they're either laughing or they're not with a musical number, they're either whooping and hollering or they're not. And what she does with Diva's Lament which is just, I think, a very unfunny song. And I've since watched Merle Dandridge not do it well. I've watched Lauren Kennedy not do it well. And it's not their fault. The song's not very good, but I recall how much Sarah just destroyed it. And there's even. There's video footage of it as well, of her just destroying it. And it's one of those things where, like, it's just she was the right fit for that role and something about what she could do. And maybe it was also just like she had the luck of being in it the year that. That it was a hot ticket. So people went in wanting to love it, but I just feel like she spun straw into gold, and that is very much deserving of recognition. So that's my take. It's not to demean anyone else in this category. Like I said, I would love it if they all would taught me to just take turns. But I am not upset at all about Sarah's win here.
- [112:06]
B
No. Nor am I upset about Sarah's win. I think that my. But I look at the category and agree it's stacked. But it's easy for me to say I would have voted for Kelli o' Hara and lighting the Piazza. I mean, at this point, I had seen Kelli o' Hara do suit Smell of Success, where I'm not sure that the material allowed her to make an incredible impression. And then I had seen Kelly do Light in the Piazza out of Town at the Goodman in Chicago, where she played Franka, where she played the Sarah Uriardi Berry role or the role that Sarah Uriarty Berry would play at the Vivian Beaumont, and which is a performance that remains to this day my favorite Kelli o' Hara performance, where I felt she was sexy and funny and fiery and just like completely 180 from the sort of meek character she'd played in Sweet Smell of Success. And then to go back a year later and see Kelli o' Hara do Clara on Broadway and see that she had that in her also. So I at that point was like, okay, I'm very excited about this performer. She, like the bag of tricks for the size of her toolbox is really apparent.
- [113:13]
A
You were ahead of the game. Because the oh, we keep underestimating Kelly o' Hara narrative started after Piazza. When Kelly did Piazza, we were all like, oh, glorious. A beautiful soprano on Broadway. We love it. And then she got cast a pajama game, and we all went the fuck. And then she nailed Pajama game, in my opinion, nailed pajama game. And we went, oh, I guess she's capable of more than we realized. And then she got cast in South Pacific and everyone once again went, the fuck. And then she did a great job. And again we all went, oh, I guess she's capable of more than we realized. And just sort of like it was that rinse and Repeat for like 10 years until finally we're like, you know what? I think there's a lot that Kelly o' Hara can do. So you were ahead of everyone on that.
- [113:56]
B
I just thought she was really stunning in the part. And these are all great. I mean, like, I loved Celia and spelling bee, you can't go wrong with Joanna Gleason, et cetera, you know. But there was something about seeing the range of Kelly o'. Hara. So sort of, I mean, I'm going to call it early in her career, but I'm sure it didn't feel early in her career to her, but to me as a spectator it did. And I was like, this is an actor I'm excited to watch and track.
- [114:22]
A
It was, it was good. I mean, I also say I saw her again do the role in the, the ten year anniversary concert that they did at the Beaumont.
- [114:30]
B
And how was that?
- [114:31]
A
Oh, it was amazing. Oh, it's one of my favorite nights of all time. First of all, Victoria just. I feel like Victoria wakes up out of bed and like, hey, Vicky do Piazza now. And she's like, okay, Florence, Italy. It's like, can just drop in, like in any moment. I also adore Sarah. You write Barry in that show. And I was so happy to see her do it again. And Kelly really just like, I saw her pretty early in the Broadway run and thought she was stunning. And seeing her on do it 10 years later, I'm like, oh, you have found so many things in the show that I feel like it took you a while to find. Not that you were bad before, but just like it went to a whole new level and she was so in control of it and it just was, it was just fantastic. And she's even said, like, it took her a minute to find Clara and it was just great to watch her be totally in command and get a full minute long ovation for the title song. Like, we would not let the show continue because she went and sat down and we just kept applauding and she did a nod and we were like, no, bitch, stand up and bow. And then so she finally had to stand up and bow and then we continued. Love It. Speaking of featured actress in a musical, I want to do my last one of this category. 1976, Kelly Bishop for A Chorus Line, beating out Priscilla Lopez for A Chorus Line, Patty Lupin for Robert Bridegroom, and Virginia Seidel for Very good, Eddie. Now everyone, I know what you're thinking. Matt. Virginia absolutely deserved it. Very good, Eddie. You know, classique, iconique. Classique, iconique, titanique. And I say, yes, I know, but no, the truth is that it was down to Kelly and Priscilla. And as at the time going in, everyone thought it was going to be Priscilla Lopez because Priscilla had what I did for love, which became the big pop hit of the show and you know, also had nothing. So she had, she had a lot of singing to do and Kelly's role was really all scene work. And I think it's, I mean, it sounds so weird to say like they made the right choice because I feel like a lot of people feel this way. But I want to kind of just congratulate the 1976 voters for picking Kelly A. Because no, just a short four years later, Priscilla would get hers. And so I don't, we don't feel bad. But when I watch Kelly do Sheila, when I watch either the Lincoln center video or I watch the video from the record breaking performance where they become the longest running show on Broadway.
- [116:58]
B
Oh my God, I love that recording.
- [116:59]
A
It's so gonna be. Her scene pre at the ballet is incredible. There you see the vulnerability underneath the tough exterior that we also would come to love in Gilmore Girls. But like she, like so many people just think of doing Sheila as an outright bitch and it's like, no, no, no. There is so much pain and insecurity underneath there. So you have, it's, you have to know what the exterior is covering. And you could see that with her and the sensuality and the humor. She's able to find. One of my favorite moments she does, and others have tried to do it, but they don't do it as well, is when she's talking about how.
- [117:39]
B
How.
- [117:39]
A
Her mother basically, you know, planted the seed of wanting to dance in her brain. She goes, oh. And then she would give me her old toe shoes which I used to run down the sidewalk in on my toes. And then she just looks over at the others. She goes, at 5. It was just with his total, like, yeah, I'm that bitch. And she does a little hip swivel afterwards because she's sort of repositioning herself after just serving everyone. And no one has been able to land that like she did. And it's just so good. I love her. I love this win. I love this win so much.
- [118:09]
B
I mean, I agree with you. I think that Tony's got it right. My real question for you is, do you think the Tonys got it right putting Donna McKechnie, Cassie, in leading rather than featured, where they would put her years later in a revival? Yes. Obviously, Gwen Verdon and Chita Rivera did not think that the Tonys got it right. Yeah.
- [118:26]
A
And. Well, also. And Gwen Verdon famously said, when Donna got nominated, she said, but she can't act. And I. I think Gwen was just being mean because that was. Chicago was her baby, and she could sort of feel it slipping away from her. The thing is, like, normally I would not say that Cassie is the lead. I think she's the most most prominent in the show, watching that original cast. And also just sort of. I think the energy of who everyone was in that show. Donna was by far the most well known in that production. And the way that she. The way that, like, the whole cast is sort of directed, Donna is a little more at the forefront. So I do think it is category fraud overall. But I can definitely get in the heads of the nominators that year of first of all, Chorus Line being the huge hit that it was. And, you know, if Bennett and Joe Papp say, we want to put Donna in lead, they'll be like, yeah, sure, whatever you want. Whatever you want.
- [119:24]
B
Yeah. I mean, I actually haven't heard many stories, and please correct me if you know of them, but, like, of producers requesting a category shift for somebody and not being granted it.
- [119:36]
A
Well, Rudin wanting one man, two governors to be considered a revival. That's the most recent.
- [119:40]
B
Interesting.
- [119:41]
A
Yeah. And. And then they ended up not getting in for play because of it. Because he tried very hard to get it in for revival. And they basically said, go fuck yourself. This is new. The play you are saying this is a revival of premiered 200 years ago and never on Broadway. So good day, sir.
- [119:58]
B
I also find it so fascinating when these roles flip categories. I mean, like, look at the Baker's Wife. You know, Joanna Gleason won the Drama Desk for featured actress, won the Tony for leading actress, you know, in the revival, even though, oh, my God, what's her name? Kerry O'. Malley. Even though she wasn't nominated in 2002, they had ruled her eligible for featured. And here we have Sara Bareilles in leading again.
- [120:19]
A
Yeah, well, and the same thing with the Olivier. Sometimes roles that win supporting here win lead over over there and vice versa. I mean, also think about this. We have what's her face? Is it Carlin Glenn from Best Little Whorehouse in Texas who is objectively the lead of the show put in feature.
- [120:35]
B
But at least then I can go. They didn't request that she be put in that category. She was under the title. So therefore, without intervention, she was going to be in the featured category. Right. It's not like the Oliviers, where things are absolutely wacky in every way. And they're like, we'll nominate, you know, 17 people from the same show that, you know, every year the Oliviers nominate Laurie Peters and the children for the Sound of Music kind of a thing.
- [120:55]
A
Yeah, well, so the, the, the name placement over the title thing, I believe that changed post 1776, I believe.
- [121:04]
B
Which is what, 69.
- [121:06]
A
69, yeah, because William Daniels, he campaigned to be put in league and got denied because of the title thing. So he, I think, I don't even think he got nominated for featured anymore.
- [121:16]
B
Because he would actually granted his wish and yeah, took it. Took him out of consideration.
- [121:21]
A
Yeah, he's like, I'm a lead. It's bullshit that I be put in featured. And so he just wasn't nominated at all, which is fine because Jerry Orbach's win for Promise Promises is wonderful. But after that, I think it became. That's when they started doing the petitioning of like, you put forward what you want and we'll decide whether or not to grant it it. And so, yeah, I don't think in terms of actors, there's many times that the committee denies a production when they say, we would like this actor here or there. And with Donna in Chorus Line, by the time that the nominations came out, the show had been open for almost a year and she became the face of the show. So just on a publicity level, it sort of made sense. It was like, you think of Chorus Line, you think of Donna. So I get it, I get why it happened. But no, I also, I do not think Cassie is the lead. But I'm not mad that Donna won that year either.
- [122:15]
B
I fully co signed that. I mean, I'm like, she's iconic in the role and I would have, you know, checked the box for her. Sorry to the women of Chicago and Christina Andreas, but that's just how it is. Once she was in the category, you would have gotten my check mark.
- [122:26]
A
But yeah, I mean, just the way she sings music in the mirror alone, I just go, yeah, no, give it to her. Just give it to her. Her.
- [122:33]
B
And that Dance that's like built for that instrument.
- [122:36]
A
Absolutely. And you don't realize how much it is fine tuned to her body until you watch other wonderful dancers who do not have her body do it. And something just always feels a little off, you know, it's like.
- [122:47]
B
But see, that's where I think it starts to get weird because like Ann ranking replaced Donna McKechnie. Right. And ranking. And I remember reading about this. It's in one of the famous, you know, coffee table books about a chorus line. And you know, and then I've got all of the. Exactly. I think it's the one that has the caricatures with Barbra Streisand as somebody, you know, whatever. In one of the bifold. Whatever it is. But in that book, I think they say something about how like Bennett came back and like addressed the fact that Ann Ranking is a legs dancer and Don McKechnie is an upper body dancer. Freddie me was an upper body dancer. Excuse me, lower body dancer. Ann Ranking. And then actually adjusted the choreography so that Ann Ranking would shine in it. Like, why don't we get that opportunity for other dancers in that feature? Like, why? Like, why not? Because we seem to be very stuck in a chorus line where it's like, it's gotta be what we see on these charts. And those charts are an incredible record of this original production. But I'm starting to feel like they are damaging the show in general.
- [123:45]
A
Yeah, well, Bennett was always good about that with his shows. I mean, Dreamgirls, he totally would restage things based on how the fe could move. Like, there's like three different choreography editions of Move, of Dreamgirls, of Party Party based on like your Effie's dance abilities. And so I like that he was able to do that like, because like Holiday couldn't move so that it's all port de bras for all the dreams movements. And then like Lillias White, she was. She could move. So he's like, okay, we'll do some fancy footwork for you. But Fosse was also like kind of a stickler about that.
- [124:17]
B
He.
- [124:18]
A
He would not bend in the way that Bennett would. Like. There's famous stories of dancing. And speaking of Ann Ranking with the trumpet solo, it was about, you know, if you were her understudy or if you were her replacement, you know, you had to do it as well as she could or almost as good. And he wouldn't. Rather than adjust the number to the dancer he had after Anne left, he was like, no, no, no, you. You do what Anne did. And if you don't do it as well, then you don't get the blue dress that she wears. And I, I find that, oh yeah, there's a whole story about that blue dress and dance and it's, it is hilarious and toxic. But no, I wish that we would do that more with Cassie now because if it was done so many times in the 16 year Broadway run, there have to be versions written down that we can give to women who have not Donna McKechnie's body totally.
- [125:06]
B
And they just have a different instrument that they're working with. But I want to piggyback on your William Daniels and talk about 1996 Best Actress in a musical. The tabloid Tonys, Donna Murphy winning for King and I beating Julie Andrews for Victor Victoria, Daphne Rubin Vega for Rent and Krista Moore for Big. And obviously Julie Andrews had basically all of the momentum going into the Tony Award nominations and then found herself one of Victor Victoria's, I believe two nominations was it. That's the thing.
- [125:35]
A
Literally the only, the only one. I think she was the only one.
- [125:38]
B
You know, after people really thought that Rachel Yorke, et cetera, were going to be, you know, Tony Roberts were going to be a part of the, the conversation and she made her famous speech and she asked to be, you know, removed from consideration. But the Tonys did not grant that in any kind of codified way. They simply left her on the ballot and they said, that's up to the voters. Like you can accept it or you cannot accept it. And there was a really. And I remember feeling that there was a strong sense that Julie Andrews was going to win this Tony anyways. She hadn't won for My Fair Lady. She lost to Judy Holiday. She hadn't won for Camelot. I forget who she lost to. Do you know, I'm, I remember.
- [126:14]
A
I think it's 60 or maybe, maybe it is 61, huh? Keep, keep talking. I'm gonna find out regardless that, that.
- [126:21]
B
Like there was a real sense. And actually I remember I was a child actor at the time and I was recording a series of voiceovers with one of the actors. That day was not a voiceover for theater. It was like A Sears AT&T commercial with one of the actors who was in Victoria and later won a Tony. You can figure that out yourself. And I remember in the green room hearing people ask him, what do you think is going to happen on Sunday? You know, it was like the Thursday before the Tonys or something, you know, do you think Julie's going to win or you think people are going to be like, no, she doesn't want it. We're not going to vote for her. And he said he was so confident that she was going to win because not only did he think people who thought she deserved it were going to vote for her, he was like, I keep being told that people are so curious about what would happen if Julie Andrews won that they were going to vote for her anyway. Now who, I mean this is obviously like what do you say to somebody was in a show. But that really lodged in my 13 year old brain at the time. And I went into that awards expecting Julie Andrews to win. I think like most of the audience did. And I think having seen every performance in this category that the Tonys actually did. Right. Donna Murphy, like I love Julie Andrews in the movie of Victor Victoria, but I think the musical doesn't land for me in the same way as the movie. It just, the music doesn't actually add to it for me. Whereas Donna Murphy's production of the King and I, not that she directed, I think was what Christopher Renshaw, but her performance in that, that production was my first exposure to King and I outside of the movie. And I remember being completely blown away by how dramatically sound this piece of theater was and how emotional it was. And she was such a huge part of that that it made. In retrospect, I look at the list of people and I go, I would give this Tony to Donna Murray Murphy.
- [127:58]
A
Yeah. Yeah. So I'm gonna say no only to be a. Because I love Krista Moore and I love Big and I.
- [128:07]
B
That cannot be. Of the four people in this category. You're going to go, you're gonna die on the Krista Moore hill.
- [128:13]
A
I'm not actually. No, no. What I, I. Who did Kristen Moore lose the Tony for Gypsy to? Because. Oh, Randy Graf, City of Angels. Okay. I can't begrudge Randy Graf, City of Angels, but I'm certainly not. Krista is actually kind of my favorite Louise and Gypsy. I think Benanti does such a banger job with that strip and, and makes the most of that arc. But Krista's first act is just so good and you really don't see her being the star she becomes in Act 1. So that transformation just takes you by total surprise. And not for nothing, she was Arthur Lawrence's favorite Louise until Benanti. But I'm also, I'm just, I'm a big Christopher Moore. Stan. I love that she's got such a heavy chest and such a heavy soprano and there's no mix. It's just flips.
- [129:03]
B
What's the 90s? Come on.
- [129:05]
A
Yeah, it's. I love that heavy singing from the 90s and 80s. Here we go again. She's great. I love her.
- [129:13]
B
What I also love about the category of best actress in 1996 is that when Bernadette Peters reads the names, she says, daphne Rubavega. Daphne Rubavega.
- [129:22]
A
Daphne Rubavega. Rent. I. That I also. Daphne is someone who I feel like I've only come to appreciate more and more over time. Especially I see other performances of hers. I think she's just such a class act, and she is so vibrant in Rent. But no, Donna's a great choice for that. And. And I think that win has always been tainted for her because of the Julie Andrews of it all. But she should take away from it that. That she was a deserving winner that night. Peter, we have to take one more break with you. How do you mean?
- [129:52]
B
You're the top.
- [129:53]
A
Yeah, you're an Arrow caller. You're the top.
- [129:59]
B
You're a Coolidge dollar.
- [130:03]
A
And we're back. Donna Murphy demanded we'd be back, so I say more nice things about her. Okay, so you had your Donna. Let's do one of man. I said the 2014 feature actor. How about best choreography of 2007 for Bill T. Jones on Spring Awakening? Now, this was not a sure thing. It seems like it was because Spring Awakening ended up sweeping, like, eight awards that night. And I do think. I think. I wonder if Jones actually won a precursor or not. But the momentum going in was mostly for Mary Poppins and kind of for Rob Ashford for Curtains. Everyone felt that it was his best work since Millie Jerry Mitchell. I think because Legally Blonde underperformed with nominations no one was really taking seriously. It was also his first time out as a director. So people were like, the nomination is your win. But I recall everyone being like, it's going to be Mary Poppins because of the tap of Step In Time. Gavin Lee goes up the proscenium of the theater. How can you not? And then when Spring Awakening slowly started gaining momentum throughout the night and then Bill T. Jones won, we were all like, oh. But of course, now that Spring Awakening is sweeping, but I recall that going in that it was not a sure thing. I also remember Spring Awakening wasn't a sure thing for book that year. A lot of people thought it could be Doug. Right. For Grey Gardens.
- [131:27]
B
Yeah, I remember that specifically.
- [131:29]
A
Yeah. Those were two awards that people were pretty sure it could. It could lose. And it ended up winning both of them. I'm still on the fence about the book win because I like the book for both of those shows and I think they both have their own issues and they both have their own merits. So I don't ask me to, to tell you which one's the right one. I'm just gonna say we have that award. Choreography though, I'll be down for. I also remember seeing Spring Awakening. They had just opened, the theater was half full. I went with my grandmother, same grandmother who took me to Caroline or change and lighting the piazza. She took me to all the big critical darlings and they were doing Touch Me. They were going across the stage, like sort of touching their chest and all that. And there were two couples in front of me. There was no two straight couple friends. And they were laughing so hard during that number. They just were not on board with it. And they were, they were mocking it all throughout the number. And then during intermission and I remember thinking to myself, oh, this show's gonna be more divisive than I thought. And going into the Tonys at night, that was sort of planted in my brain of those, of that two, those two couples mocking the choreography while they were watching it.
- [132:37]
B
I also think it's worth mentioning that Bill T. Jones had like a storied career in dance before ever entering the, you know, the world of Tony consideration. And I think that does help to a certain extent. Like Rob Ashford, Jerry Mitchell and Matthew Bourne all had Tony awards Rubisque choreographer already.
- [132:52]
A
Oh, sure, that. No, that absolutely helps. But again, they love to prove me wrong from time to time. They really do. And when they do, I love it. Like when Bob Crowley won set design for once. But a lot of times with these awards, with choreography or with design, they go for most and not always for best. And which is not to say, you know, that like the other nominees are bad. It's just that when it comes to dance, oftentimes it's like, you know, okay, what has the most choreography going on? What is the most impressive, technically speaking? Not thinking about the storytelling or the, or the characters. I've mentioned it before, I won't go into it too much, but there is a choreography win in the last couple of years for a revival that I do not like for a choreographer who I think is good. But it's just, it was choreography that was not story based for me. It was not character based taste for me. And in fact, the number they performed on the Tony Awards was a prime example of this because it was a Bunch of characters who are low class, degenerate criminals, and they're dancing like a bunch of power bottoms doing a Hasty pudding show. And I'm like, this is. And they're doing impressive dancing, but none of it feels like it comes from those kind of people. And I was like, this should not win based on this alone. But it did win. And then I've had people yell at me and say I was wrong, to which I say, okay, that is your journey.
- [134:16]
B
But I think that's how, like, someone like Graciela Danili doesn't have a Tony award for choreographing and, like, wasn't even nominated for the Visit because there isn't that much dance in it. But to my eye, what dance there was, was so perfect and so character driven that I remember the night before that nominations came out. I was like, come on, please give this woman the nomination. She needs it. I mean, she. She doesn't need it. I want her to have it.
- [134:38]
A
We all want her to have it. And that's the thing is, like, there have been times when the Tonys actually did recognize this. If you read any of the Michael Bennett books. With Dream Girls, when they won Choreography, people actually thought. People thought that Dream Girls was going to win direction and that nine was going to win choreography. And then it was. When it happened the other way, a lot of people were sort of baffled by Dream Girls's choreography when they're like, there's not that much dancing in it, and at least dancing in the way that people think of dancing.
- [135:05]
B
But, like, motion. Yeah.
- [135:06]
A
And that's sort of what. That was the argument that Bennett and Avian talked about. They're like, no, they're like, that show is choreographed down to, like, the pinky. It's. And it's always moving. That is choreography as much as any kick.
- [135:18]
B
I mean, actually, in the conversation about Spring Awakening choreography here in 2007, I mean, and this is in concert, certainly with Michael Mayer's direction, but that's a show that was choreographed, you know, that was staged down to, like, every millisecond was prepared that he had a stage full. The two of them had a stage full of young actors, in many ways untested. And they really, like, codified every motion in that show to make sure the audience got the show every night.
- [135:45]
A
Absolutely. They kept it moving, and that was why they deserved their awards. They deserved their roses. All right, we've got a couple more. Let's wrap this mother up.
- [135:56]
B
Great.
- [135:57]
A
I'm you, you, you, you.
- [136:00]
B
I'm gonna do you know, we sort of touched on this before, but I, you know, when you said, when did the Tonys get it right? One thing that came to mind isn't actually a victory or, you know, a winner, but in 1972, they finally got their shit together and they figured out the Best Score category. After decades of, like, throwing everything at the wall and seeing what stuck, and spoiler alert, nothing stuck. You know, they had composer category, where lyricists weren't even acknowledged. They had the category best composer Lyricist that, you know, people like Lionel Bart won for Oliver and, you know, Jerry Herman won for hello Dolly, and then the category would disappear, and then Sondheim is the sole, as you mentioned, winner of a category for best music and a separate category for best lyrics. But thankfully, in 1972, the year after Company, they finally got it together, and they said, the category is called Best Score. It honors composer and lyricist. And that was pretty much with very little alteration how it's been ever since, with the exception of the shift that I think is great. Also in 1994, they started to say it has to be written directly for the theater after the. Who won after Pete Townsend tied for best score in 1993 for a score that had been written 20 years earlier. And you see in the decades prior between 1972 and 1990, you definitely see a couple times where, you know, like, a score that had been on screen gets nominated or that kind of a thing.
- [137:21]
A
Yeah.
- [137:22]
B
Or when at least finally the lyricists are in the mix, it feels really strange and cruel to not have included them.
- [137:28]
A
Absolutely. I think the. The thinking behind, like, Gigi winning in the 70s and then, you know, Townsend winning or tying for score in the 90s was like, like, well, if the music was written for that story, that still counts. And then by the time Tommy happens, like, no, no, we cannot award someone for a score they wrote 20 years ago that was never meant to go on stage. That is. That's a whole other thing. There have been loopholes, like things with Hadestown, which were like it. That was just always in development. So it's not like the score came out as an album and then got repurposed for this.
- [138:01]
B
No. And it was written for the theater.
- [138:04]
A
Yeah. But, you know, that's. That's. That is. No, that is a good shift. I. I agree with you on that.
- [138:09]
B
And so after years of getting it wrong, I think in 1972, the Tonys finally got it right.
- [138:14]
A
Yes. They finally. So it's so odd. It took them, you know, 23 years to get there, but they did.
- [138:19]
B
They.
- [138:19]
A
They did. Okay, I have. I think I have two more. I have Katie Finneran, best featured actress in a play for noises off in 2002. And it's not so much that this was a surprise. I feel like this was definitely. People are like, this is. This is what's going to happen. She's absolutely stealing the show. And this is a role, actually, that always gets nominated. Deborah Rush got nominated in the original Beck, and Hilty got nominated in the most recent. But I just want to look at for a second who she's up against here. We have Kate Burton for the Elephant Man, Elizabeth Franz, Estelle Parsons, and Frances Sternhagen. All, I believe, for mornings at 7. That is. I mean, think. And like, N.K. finneran was, like, relatively young. She had had, I think, three or four Broadway shows at this point, but this was her first, like, real feature. She understudied the female lead in My Favorite Year, which. That's, like, the one role that no one really cares about. She played the maid in the Heiress. And then she was the first. I think. I think she was. No, she was the third Sally Bowles in Cabaret. But, like, for all of a month. She played it for, like, a month while they were in between movie stars. Oh, wow.
- [139:27]
B
I didn't know that.
- [139:28]
A
Yeah, she was.
- [139:30]
B
I saw these performances.
- [139:32]
A
Yeah.
- [139:32]
B
And I agree that Katie Finneran was totally wonderful. If you put a ballad in front of me, though, I would hesitate for not a millisecond and check off Elizabeth Franz, because her performance in that lives in my memory so vividly.
- [139:47]
A
Elizabeth Franz is one of those actresses where if you don't know who she is, you don't. You don't, like, think about, you know, what you're missing out on. But if you do know who she is, if you experience just one of her performances, it's you. You're. You're on board for life. I am devastated. I am devastated. I don't believe that there is any video footage of her doing Sister Mary Ignatius Explains it all for you. I want to see that performance so badly.
- [140:16]
B
I would love to see that.
- [140:17]
A
I think the reason why she didn't win is that she had just won for Linda in Salesman four or five years prior. And Mornings at Seven is a bit of an ensemble piece. And Katie Finneran was a major standout in Noises off. And it was that idea of, like, oh, we found a new talent. And then it sort of took a while for her to kind of come back into the fold after that. But Katie Finneran is a very Gifted comedic actress and was very special in that production. So I'm just. I think that is a good win. Again, put a ballot in front of me. I don't know what I would tell you, but I look at that on paper and I go, nice. Nice work there.
- [140:52]
B
Oh, yeah, I agree with that.
- [140:55]
A
All right, hit me, daddy.
- [140:58]
B
All right, let's do 1992 Best Actor in a Musical, where Nathan Lane and Guys and Dolls had won the Outer Critics Circle and the Drama Desk. Leading up the other nominees were Michael Rupert, who was in Falsettos and had been for, at that point, what, 15 years. There was Harry Groener or Grainer. I don't know how to pronounce it. I think it's Groener for Groener for Crazy for you. And then the winner, Gregory Hines in Jelly's Last Jam, who I think surprised people when his name was called. But I think if you. To me, having seen these performances, and actually Hines is the one that I had to see at the public library. The other ones I saw live. Hines is heartbreaking. He is astonishing in the role. And you hear it on the album, too. I had always, you know, the reason I got off my butt and went to the library to see it was because I was obsessed with that album. Album. And the ache in his voice in that performance. And, you know, the depth that I feel like sort of exists in everything George C. Wolff touches is so apparent in Jelly's Last Jam. To me, and I say, yes, the Tonys got it right in 1992. It was controversial in the moment, but Gregory Hines, I think, really deserved that award for best actor.
- [142:05]
A
No, no, I'm on board with it. I mean, again, a wonderful lineup. And there is an argument to be made for any of them. You know, Nathan Lane had had some off Broadway success with Lisbon, Traviata and Guys and Dolls was his first big Broadway musical success. And the show was a huge smash. Michael Rupert and Falsettos. Falsettos was a big community favorite. You listen. I mean, talk about when a show goes to perform on the telecast and a theater filled of community, people only respond when Falsettos begins their performance. The entire Gershwin theater is. Is so pumped for it. Everyone's loving that Falsettos is finally here on Broadway and being a success. And there is a world in which Michael Rupert could ride that wave with it. And then there's Harry Groner, who had sort of been around in Oklahoma and in Cats and finally gets his own leading role in another big smash doing all the dancing in all of the world could totally win. But I think ultimately Heinz is the choice. And I think Heinz is asked to do the most emotionally, physically. He's asked just as much as Groener. And it is a show that is. Jolie's Last Jam is such an interesting show because, like, this show did well. It ran for a year and a half. It launched Tanya Pinkins and was critically adored and won other Tony Awards. But it's such an odd musical. Like, it's. So this is not a show that would probably last today like it did in 1992.
- [143:34]
B
You know, I'm gonna push back on that one, though, Matt, because I feel like maybe a couple years ago that would be true. But I think, like, Jelly's Last Jam is this, like, really dark and I think kind of deep musical about internal racism. And I feel like maybe the world is more ready for it now than they were in 1992. I just think that George C. Wolfe, you know, Jelly's Last Jam and Wild Party, the original Top Dog underdog. I think, like, everything George Wolfe touches, there is a real sense of time and place. And he really, you know, he wrote the book for Jelly's Last Fame in addition to directing it. I think it's one of the smartest musicals out there, and I would be thrilled to see it live. I'm kind of bummed I didn't go see it at the Signature in Arlington when it was there. I'm a huge Jared Grimes fan, but I'm a really big supporter of Jill Xtram in general, and I think when it is revived, it will get its due and people will see it.
- [144:35]
A
I hope I'm wrong, because I love the show. And you think you're a George C. Wolfe fan. I am a George C. Wolfe fan. I will George C. Wolf you down the house booze, honey. No, George C. Wolfe is he. Heitner and Mantello are probably my favorite directors working right now. And I did say on the podcast a few weeks ago that I have not had a Joe Mantello production since the closed Virginia Woolf, and then they announced Gray House. So I brought that into existence. And now I'm saying, okay, haven't had a wolf since. Gary, I would like another George C. Wolf, please. And we haven't had a George C. Wolf musical since Shuffle Along. Even when he does stuff. Yeah.
- [145:15]
B
And it's not fair. We need it.
- [145:16]
A
We need it. Even if he does something that doesn't always work, there's something to it. You know, he's rarely had failure, failures the, like, the, the only few I can really think of are, like, his revival of on the Town that no one really liked and.
- [145:29]
B
But people liked it enough to move the show from, you know, the Delacorte to Broadway.
- [145:34]
A
Well, so that is. Okay. There's a. There is a weird thing about when George was the artistic director of the Public, which he was at the time that that happened. There was. There was like a two year period. It's. It was the back to back of on the Town and Wild Party. And in fact, I think the Wild Party that he directed had a bit more stink on it because of on the Town, not just because it didn't do well, but because it wasn't super well received at the Delacorte. And yet it still moved. And a lot of critics were like, why would you do this? We didn't like it that much to begin with, and it only got worse than the transfer. And so then when Wild Party opened just straight on Broadway, a lot of critics kind of came at it with, oh, great. The public is just trying to get. Get as much money as possible. It's going full commercial opening straight on Broadway, which is unfair to that Wild Party. Like that. That production never belonged in the Newman. It belonged in the August Wilson. But I mean, and then there's, you know, also just internalized racism and that end of like, George C. Wolfe getting all this as the artistic director while this is happening. But again, I say, I only say this because, like, for anything he's done that maybe hasn't always worked for people, there are just. There are things about what he does that is compelling and fascinating and intelligent. And I'm. I'm always just down to clown with whatever he wants to do. And I, I love this musical. I think this musical is so good. And the other thing about this musical that I think would actually help is that with all the serious subject matter, it is still wildly entertaining. Like it.
- [147:05]
B
Yeah.
- [147:06]
A
George C. Wolfe has a theatrical flair to him that even when he's doing things like the Colored Museum or Angels in America, he's like, but we will design it impeccably and have it flow like a musical because, well, if you.
- [147:17]
B
Watch the B roll from the original Angels in America, you will never see a funnier Angels in America. It's like, it plays like an out and out comedy in a way that, like, sometimes I think the importance of that play sometimes buckles under the importance of it because we just think of it as such a. You know, we all read it in college, whether we were theater Majors or not. And I think that experiencing it in 1993 and 1994, when certainly it had a tremendous amount of. Of, you know, momentum and people were excited about it, but that. That B roll, always. I'm just. I catch myself laughing. It's just a really funny and fast play.
- [147:50]
A
Yeah, no, it's. I. I never like to say, like, it'll never be better than the original. And Angels is such a brilliant work that there are so many interpretations that I'm here for. But, I mean, Kushner and George C. Wolfe combined is always just a recipe for magnificence. And then that cast is incredible. And they do lead with. With fire and humor. And that is always how Angels should be. Something I had an issue with with the revival, which I liked better on Broadway than at the National. At the National, I found it completely humorless. And then when they moved to Broadway in front of a New York audience, it's like they were reminded that there were jokes. And while it wasn't as funny as the original, it was funnier than when it was in London. And I feel like if you are a draw, all dramas have jokes in them. Like, they're. They're just there. There's humor in even the most serious of shows. Just because you cannot sit for four hours and be depressed, you need something to disarm you. And humor disarms people. And Angels is a brilliant example of, like, leading with comedy all the time. I mean, just the opening speech from the rabbi alone when. When they're reading the list of all the grandchildren's names and I forget which one it is, but they look at it at one of the names and they go, huh, this is a Jewish name. Whatever. And, like, keeps going and, like, that's a joke that disarms the audience. And all the Roy Cohn stuff with the phones. I love the, you know, Cats. It's about dancing, singing cats. You'll love it. It's. Oh, God. I just love. We're not talking about Angels, but we love George C. Wolff. And I love Jelly's Last Jam. I like this win. Thank you for this win. My last one is very niche. Best orchestrations for Early Modern Millie in 2002. I only say this because usually orchestrations go to whatever wins best score. Not always. Usually the exceptions tend to be revivals or when a pre existing catalog gets reinterpreted somehow. So, like Girl from the north country taking Bob Dylan and making it sound like 1930s radio or the Kiss Me Kate orchestrations or moving out even. Yeah, exactly. And here we have Mamma Mia. Which does take a pre existing catalog and makes it more theatrical. We have Urinetown, which wins best score. And Millie is sort of half and half. It is an half original score, half old songs. And the orchestrations don't necessarily reinterpret the pre existing songs, but what the orchestrations do is that they unite the songs that are new with the songs that are old and help make it sound like one complete score. I remember when I saw Millie in 2002, not knowing that it was a movie previously and not hearing any of the original songs afterwards for many years. I had no idea that Millie was half pre existing songs. In fact, I think I heard the melody for Modern Major General from Millie first and then Pirates like four years later. And I was like, oh, that's the speed test.
- [150:43]
B
I wonder if in this case what was working against Urinetown is best score winner, but not the winner of Orchestrations is the fact that those orchestrations are so spare and the instrumentation is just. I mean, it doesn't compare to the Millie or even like. I think what my choice honestly would be, Sweet Smell of Success, if only because I think it's just so. Oh God. I just like love the brassiness of it and I love how big it feels and how like nighttime it feels.
- [151:09]
A
It's very nighttime. I mean, again, talk. I like this lineup for the most part. And they're all very different from each other. I do like that Urinetown's very small orchestrations got recognized with a nomination. And I think because they are not big, it does work against them, but it's just so very vile. It's so Kurt Violi and it's perfect. I think you make it any bigger of a sound and it doesn't work right.
- [151:32]
B
They chose the sound that suits the material. I just don't think it's the sound that like, as we were saying, you know, best choreography, most choreography, it's never going to win most orchestrations because it's just. That's not. That's not what they're going for.
- [151:44]
A
No, honestly, the moment for me that clinches Millie's orchestration win is the transition from not for the life of me into the title song. That whole piece is just so Broadway in a way that like makes me happy to be alive, which is not all every day. So that is that. That transition is just so good. And I'm like, you know what? You guys get it.
- [152:11]
B
I'm just surprised that you would give this, you know, that you would honor Doug Besterman here. Who is so obviously a French woods boy.
- [152:18]
A
Listen, I don't hate the French woods children, Peter. I just think I'm better than them. There's. Listen, we don't have a Best Orchestration winner in our alum from Stage Door Manor, at least none that I know of.
- [152:30]
B
Better get on that.
- [152:32]
A
It's going to be me. Hi, it's me. I'm the orchestrator. It's me.
- [152:38]
B
So my final thing, my final pick here for Tony's Getting It Right is going to be Best Actor in a musical. In 2007, when David Hyde Pierce won for Curtains after Rowless Barza had won both the Drama Desk and the Outer Critics Circle, the other nominees were Michael Serverus for Love Music, Jonathan Groff for Spring Awakening, and Gavin Lee for Mary Poppins, all of whom were terrific. But it really did seem like it was Raoul Esparza causes Tony to Lose going into the night. You know, this was his umpteenth nomination. He'd never won. There was. It seemed like on paper, the momentum was his. And Again, this is 2007, the only Tony Awards I've ever attended. And let me tell you, in the room, it was very clear that the audience felt the Tonys had got it right when David Hyde Pierce won. The energy in that space when they announced David Hyde Pierce, clearly people were surprised, and clearly people were really happy. I remember clocking that and feeling that in a very clear way that is.
- [153:37]
A
So fascinating, I can only tell you in the apartment of my friend Lily. We all were devastated. Now, to be fair, one of the children in the room with us was devastated on behalf. On behalf of Jonathan Groff. And this is the first time in my memory where I became a jaded old theater queen, where I just turned to this girl and I said, honey, that was never in the cards. And then we went back to the actual conversation at hand. But it's I. Again, it's the Anthony Hopkins Boseman thing, where it's on paper, it felt like it was as far as it's losing, as you say in the room, when Pierce won, the whole theater felt happy about it. It's. It's one of those things where there's what people say and then what they feel, and everyone says, well, Raul's doing such a wonderful job in Company, but everyone feels differently, you know, like.
- [154:26]
B
Yeah. And I think that David Hyde Pierce had a lot of goodwill. Number one, he, you know, Frasier was done. He had come back to New York where he had began everything, and he returned to the stage and committed, you Know, wholeheartedly to it. And I think people just liked him and were happy that he was, like, rejoining the theater community.
- [154:44]
A
Absolutely. And I think this was a show that people wanted to award in some way. And him as leading actor was the award that people probably felt best about because they could have done choreography, but they ended up going for Spring Awakening. They could have done, you know, God, who has a featured actress for Ziemba? But obviously that was going to go to Mary Louise Wilson. I've had some listeners tell me that they would have given it to Orfeh and Legally Blonde. And I said, that's a choice. I love Orfeh, but it's Mary Louise Wilson. Understand that, or die. And especially in a year like this where, you know, one musical is very much dominating, you have to try to spread out the love in any way you can. And in retrospect, it does make sense. But there, this is still a hot button topic for a lot of people. And you are very much opening the floodgates here by not only bringing it up, but by saying, well done, Tony's.
- [155:39]
B
I think they got it right. And I'm. I'm telling you this. The. The feeling in that room was that the Tonys had gotten it right. I like, it was. And I remember just feeling like a wave of, oh, wow. I didn't realize how much people wanted that.
- [155:53]
A
I. Oh, God, there's so many ways I could address that last statement, but I'm not going to because the two times I've been at the Tony, I went. So I went last year where I was. I was part of the New York City Gay Men's Chorus and we sang a little tribute to Angela Lansbury. And then we got to sit in the audience afterwards. And I think the only time somebody won last year where it did feel like 5,000 people were just fully on board and like, thrilled was a Michael R. Jackson. One book for Strange Loop. His. His standing ovation was immediate, whereas it took Patty like a solid 45 seconds to get everyone on their feet. And we love Patty, but that's just how it went. The. And then the last time I went was in 2018 with Band's visit, where again, and this is where I kind of talk about in the old days when was at a theater and it was like only 1800 people. This time it's 6000 people. So people can just buy a ticket. The, like, top two balconies were just filled to the roof with spongebob and Mean Girls fans. So anytime one of their nominations were Announced the upper levels were going crazy. And then Band's visit would win and the applause would be fine, but not to that extreme of craziness. And so I don't recall maybe other than once on this island winning revival. There was no award that night where I was, where I felt the energy of, oh, everybody wants this. Everyone's happy about this. So I. I envy you with that experience.
- [157:24]
B
Oh, I mean, listen, I was in one of the balconies, so maybe it was a different story, but it really felt. Felt like the whole room, I swear.
- [157:31]
A
Yeah, well, Raul Esparza still isn't over it.
- [157:35]
B
Well, who knows? This all people are loving Oliver. We'll see.
- [157:38]
A
Well, I only say this because I think later that year, he had the article come out in the Times where he talked about it and basically said.
- [157:45]
B
Like, no, it was. Oh, wait, I thought you were talking about the article, because I think part of the. There was an article that came out that I think is part of why he didn't win, to be honest.
- [157:52]
A
Oh, sure.
- [157:53]
B
Predated it. Yeah.
- [157:55]
A
No, he had another one afterwards after he lost, and he talked about it and he said the next day or two, they went back to the theater and Sondheim was there, and Raoul Esparza was like, oh, I'll get over it. And Sondheim said, no, you won't, and then said something along the lines of like, I'm still not over west side Story losing Best Musical.
- [158:12]
B
Yeah, I read something once where Kathy Bates said, like, it's just never fun to lose one of these things in front of the whole country. Now, granted, she was talking about the Oscars, so I don't think the whole country is watching the Tonys, as nice as that would be. But again, I'm sure it's never fun to, like, quote, unquote, lose one of these things. But also, it's probably thrilling to be there, like, good for all of them.
- [158:31]
A
I mean, we all want to be a winner, baby. But sometimes just being in. I'm at a stage where I'm like, if I get to be in the room, I am thrilled. And so I look forward to the day where I'm no longer happy with just being in the room. I need to get the hardware. I need the pudding. As Amy Poehler says it, it's pudding season and I want the pudding.
- [158:54]
B
Fair enough. I think.
- [158:54]
A
I think that's all we've gone through. Peter, thank you so much. This has been delightful.
- [159:00]
B
My pleasure. This was so much fun. It was really great to talk to somebody else. Who cares as much about this as I do?
- [159:05]
A
I listen. If I can make my brain understand medicine or law, I would go down that road in a heartbeat. But unfortunately, my brain works in featured actress in a musical land. That is how it goes.
- [159:16]
B
I know. Like, what if I could use this energy to better myself, but I can't.
- [159:20]
A
Better oneself in this economy, Please. On that note, we have a new review, y', all, that I would like to read. It was posted just on Friday and it is quite lovely. So come on, please. Peter, cue light in the Piazza Overture. Five stars. The best Broadway podcast, exclamation point. As someone who lives over a thousand miles from New York City, this podcast is the best way to hold myself over until my next trip to Broadway. I love that Matt is unapologetic in his opinions and he's so knowledgeable, so he always has the facts to back those opinions up. Keep doing what you're doing because we appreciate it. Thank you, Erica. That was very sweet. I may or may not have guilted my listeners last week into writing more reviews because I've just been on an emotional whirlwind and, like, getting a new review keeps me from crying. And that has. That'll keep me from crying for the next couple of days. Thank you, love. Yeah, guys, if you like this podcast, give us a nice 5 star rating. Write me a little review so I don't cry. It helps with the algorithm and it keeps me happy. Peter, where can people find you if you want them to find you?
- [160:27]
B
You know what? I left Twitter last fall and I haven't been back and my Instagram is private, so you're just gonna have to click your heels three times, you know, sprinkle some salt into the wind, and hopefully I'll materialize.
- [160:44]
A
That is a great game plan. I should do the same. If you want to find me, I am on Instagram only at Matt Koplik. Usual spelling. I. I think yeah, this comes out Thursday. By this point, I will have my dual review of Camelot and Parade out. I'm holding myself accountable to that. If it's not out by Thursday, y' all can flood my DMs and say, get to step in. Join us next week as we do another Tony's episode. Unclear what the focus will be, but it'll be something. And I'm trying to think what else I need to cover. Oh, by this point, I will have guested on Kyle Marshall's podcast, Putting It Together, the music of Stephen Sondheim. I will be deconstructing. Everybody loves Louis. Great song. Killer song. We love her very much, Peter. We close out every episode with a Broadway diva. What Broadway diva? Would you like to play us out for this episode?
- [161:37]
B
I'm gonna go with my gut. I heard Bernadette.
- [161:41]
A
Bernadette Peters.
- [161:42]
B
It's gonna be Bernadette.
- [161:43]
A
Okay. Falling in love with love is falling for make believe. I. My Bernadette Peters is just sort of like a zonked out Alice Ripley.
- [161:54]
B
That's funny, because I always blame Alice Ripley and Bernard Peters for whatever damage I did to my voice as a teenager.
- [161:59]
A
Yeah. The number of people who have just destroyed their voice trying to sing Tunnel of Love.
- [162:04]
B
And I, I, I spent my teenage years, you know, playing that album and then like, putting one butt cheek to the wall to play one sister and then turning around to put the other cheek to play the other sister. It's like, who needs Jekyll and Hyde when you have Sideshow.
- [162:16]
A
Exactly. I was, I was talking to someone the other day, actually about Sideshow, and there. This is a straight person, a straight male person. And I, I bring up Sideshow and they just start laughing. They go, oh, God, that Tunnel of Love song. And I said, I'm sorry, have you not been finger blasted at a carnival while your sister feels the phantoms of your orgasms? Because if you haven't, then you don't get to comment on Tunnel of Love.
- [162:40]
B
I mean, deeply relatable content.
- [162:42]
A
Absolutely. That is drama, honey. That is drama with an exclamation point sung to the highest of heavens. Yeah. So we will do brunette. Peters. Peter. Thank you so much much for joining. This has been a glorious time. And thank you everyone for listening. We'll catch you next week. And that'll be all for now. Take us away, Bernie. Bye. I fell in love with love One night when the moon was full I.
- [163:08]
B
Was unwise with eyes unable to see I fell.
- [163:17]
A
Everlasting.
- [163:23]
B
With me.