Class Notes: Carl Holder (Out of Order)

Summary

BroadwayRadio Podcast Summary Episode: Class Notes: Carl Holder (Out of Order)
Release Date: July 7, 2025
Host: Lauren Klash Schneider

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Introduction

In this engaging episode of BroadwayRadio, host Lauren Klash Schneider sits down with Carl Holder, the innovative writer and performer behind the avant-garde show Out of Order at the East Village Basement. The conversation delves deep into the creation, execution, and personal significance of Carl's unconventional theatrical piece.

Overview of Out of Order

Out of Order is a unique performance where Carl Holder challenges himself by drawing index cards from a bowl, each dictating a different task or scenario he must perform. This method introduces an element of unpredictability and showcases Carl's adaptability and willingness to embrace vulnerability on stage.

Quote:
“The show is performed in a different order every single night... I have to be ready for anything and then take whatever ride comes my way that night.”
— Carl Holder [01:44]

Development and Creation Process

Carl shares the genesis of Out of Order, which began during a residency in December 2023. Initially, the concept was vague, centered around the randomness of index cards determining the show's flow. Over two years, Carl refined the piece, touring across nine states in an indie style, performing in intimate settings like living rooms. This grassroots approach emphasized personal connection and flexibility, leading to a two-week run in a theater lobby before settling in New York.

Quote:
“The show represents like the most work I've ever put into anything. But it also is something that I feel like I have the least control over in kind of an exciting way.”
— Carl Holder [01:44]

Collaboration with Skylar Fox and Night Drive

A pivotal moment in the show's evolution was partnering with Skylar Fox and his company, Night Drive. Carl highlights the importance of this collaboration, praising Skylar's ability to enhance the show's essence without overshadowing it. Skylar's expertise in writing, directing, and stage illusion brought a new depth to Out of Order, allowing it to resonate more profoundly with New York audiences.

Quote:
“Working with him is more getting at the heart of what it wants to be and then helping it become that.”
— Carl Holder [06:10]

Venue Selection: East Village Basement

Choosing the right venue was crucial for maintaining the show's intimate and experimental nature. The East Village Basement emerged as the ideal location, offering a cozy atmosphere that fosters close interaction between Carl and the audience. The venue's rich history with avant-garde theater, including ties to the legendary La Mama, adds a layer of legacy and authenticity to the performance.

Quote:
“It's very clear that that was like the perfect home... It's the right room for the show that we want to bring.”
— Carl Holder [10:45]

Themes and Content of the Show

Out of Order is deeply personal and confessional, with each index card reflecting significant events and internal conflicts from Carl's life. Themes of aging, artistic struggle, and self-imposed challenges are prevalent. The randomness of the card draws symbolizes life's unpredictability, pushing Carl to confront uncomfortable truths and embrace moments of humiliation with dark humor.

Quote:
“If I can't complete the show for any reason, then I am retiring from theater forever.”
— Carl Holder [10:02]

Challenges and Rewards of Performing the Piece

Carl candidly discusses the emotional and psychological toll of Out of Order. Being both the creator and the performer adds layers of complexity, as he navigates the fine line between self-exposure and artistic expression. Despite the inherent difficulties, Carl finds immense liberation and joy in the unpredictability and the intimate connection with his audience.

Quote:
“It's some of the most liberating fun I've ever had.”
— Carl Holder [01:53]

Future Possibilities

When asked about the potential for other actors to take on Out of Order, Carl expresses skepticism but remains open to the idea. He acknowledges that while the show is deeply rooted in his personal experiences, a different performer could bring a new dimension to the piece, potentially transforming its essence.

Quote:
“It could take on sort of like what the Constitution means to me... it would take on the life of whatever performer does it next.”
— Carl Holder [04:39]

Conclusion

Carl Holder's Out of Order stands as a testament to innovative theater, blending personal narrative with experimental format. Through his unwavering commitment and creative collaborations, Carl has crafted a compelling performance that challenges both himself and his audience, inviting them to explore the unpredictable journey of life and art.

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Notable Quotes:

• “The show is performed in a different order every single night... I have to be ready for anything and then take whatever ride comes my way that night.” — Carl Holder [01:44]
• “Working with him is more getting at the heart of what it wants to be and then helping it become that.” — Carl Holder [06:10]
• “If I can't complete the show for any reason, then I am retiring from theater forever.” — Carl Holder [10:02]
• “It's some of the most liberating fun I've ever had.” — Carl Holder [01:53]

Transcript

[Carl Holder]

Foreign.

[Lauren Klash Schneider]

Hi, I'm Lauren Klasschneider with Class Notes for Broadway Radio. I'm here with Carl Holder, the writer and performer of out of Order at the East Village Basement. Hello.

[Carl Holder]

Hello.

[Lauren Klash Schneider]

Well, thank you. We're going to dive right in and talk about the fact that this character Carl, turned 40 and after 20 years couldn't try to play anymore. So he made this instead.

[Carl Holder]

He.

[Lauren Klash Schneider]

A game, a challenge. A bowl of index cards pulled at random now controls his fate. Each card holds a task designed to test his grit, his ingenuity, and his willingness to be humiliated. So you've written this play or created this challenge that's presented as a play. What's it like performing in this piece?

[Carl Holder]

Um, well, I mean, it's. It's definitely the most difficult thing I've ever had to do. It's. It's like the hardest challenge I've ever gone through. And of course, part of the joke of that is it's. It's one that I created for myself. There is some degree of humor in the fact that I'm kind of my own jailer, so to speak. And it's also, it's. It's some of the most liberating fun I've ever had. You know, the show is performed in a different order every single night. You know, the index cards are remove from the bowl and whichever card comes first, that's the one that I do. And I pull cards until the bowl is empty and then the evening is over. So it's something that it represents like the most work I've ever put into anything. But it also is something that I feel like I have the least control over in kind of an exciting way. I have to be ready for anything and then take whatever ride comes my way that night.

[Lauren Klash Schneider]

So the content for the cards themselves, is it different cards each night? Who writes the cards?

[Carl Holder]

Yeah, the cards are all written by me. The show. I've been working on the show in some form for going on two years now. I was born in a residency that I went to December 2023, and very, very vague understanding of what I wanted to make at that point. I was lucky enough to get some time and a pretty, pretty free in terms of what I could explore and how I wanted to explore it. And the only thing I knew when I went to LA was that I had this idea for a show that would be a bowl of index cards and the show would be done in whatever order they were removed from the bowl over time. What those cards needed to be in order for this piece to not only be somehow cohesive, but also satisfying. Not just kind of a random event that's become clearer and clearer. So the version in LA was probably the most scattered, the most random. But some kernels of that are still on the show that I do today. I then toured the show for most of 2024 in kind of like an indie band style. I drove around, I made it to nine states. I did it in living rooms, different homes. One of those living rooms led to an invitation to perform at a theater. And they were very kind and they offered me their theater. And I said, no, no, no theater. So I did a two week run in their lobby, just staying dedicated to this piece being presented in sort of unexpected locations. And then from there, I always knew that the show wanted to come back to New York, where I did some of the developing before the road. But I also knew that it needed to go through kind of a final transformation to make it make sense in that context. That's the performance, that's the version of the show that I'm doing now. So the cards are a mix of events that the room goes through together, sort of challenges that we all have to work through together. Certain cards are more monologue driven, confessional. And then other cards are characters that I play. And then as the cards are drawn, hopefully card by card, the piece kind of takes on a certain cohesion as one card bounces off a theme of the other. One card better illuminates why the heck the first card happened. And then hopefully by the end of the night, there's some version of the show that you've seen that is cohesive and also very personal because it's kind of to the individual, what they make of the event.

[Lauren Klash Schneider]

Sure, yeah.

[Carl Holder]

So the cards are about me and about where I've been in my life as a theater maker, and certainly where I've been over the past couple of years as I've run my head up against a wall of some writer's block. And also just kind of, you know, the life questions that come up when. When you turn 40 and you look at all the things that you've done and think about the things that you haven't done and try to make sense of it.

[Lauren Klash Schneider]

Now you've titled the character Carl. What are your thoughts about other actors doing this play or accepting this challenge?

[Carl Holder]

I mean, at this point, it's hard to imagine anyone else doing the show. But I would also say the version that we've created for New York is probably the closest it's come yet to something that could be done by someone else. I mean, it would take a little bit of a re imagining process. And so much of the show is conventional and driven by me and my own experience. But I do think that there is a world, especially now with what we've made for New York, that someone else could perform it. I don't know what that would look like. It would be an exciting conversation to figure out. I don't know if that means it would take on sort of like what the Constitution means to me, quality, where some actor would need to acknowledge that they actually are playing me. And this did start out as something more straightforward where I played it, or if potentially the shape of the show can morph in a way where it kind of takes on the life of whatever performer does it next if someone else were to do it next. So right now it seems sort of crazy to think of someone else stepping into this, because it's also part of where the show has gone is it's gone to places that I would only permit myself to go. You know, I wouldn't write some of these things for someone else to have to go through, but I'm willing to put myself through it in a sort of masochistic way. But, yeah, it would be interesting to see what that would look like.

[Lauren Klash Schneider]

The show was co created and directed by Skylar Fox.

[Carl Holder]

Yes.

[Lauren Klash Schneider]

So for something so personal, how did you come to this collaboration and how does that artistic, creative relationship work?

[Carl Holder]

So I've known Skyler for years and years, and I've always just been the biggest fan of his work. You know, it's tricky pursuing a life in the arts because more often than not, it's not anything that we do to each other. But artists are often kind of pitted against each other, and it's easy to feel like, you know, we're all clamoring for the same opportunities. And that can create, you know, all sorts of feelings of jealousy or just feeling like, you know, you're left behind or missing out. But I've never felt that with Skyler and his work that he does with Simon, who's also part of this production. They are a company in themselves, Night Drive. And just like I said, for years I just thought the world of the things that they've made. And Skyler had directed some readings of mine, of other plays that, you know, a little more straightforward than this one. But we had never had, like, a full steak dinner of a collaboration. And when I knew that I wanted to bring this back to New York at some point, I knew it would need further Developing. And the first person on my mind was Skyler, because I think so much of him as a creator of theater himself. But I also knew that he had a unique set of skills that would benefit the particular kind of developing I imagined this piece wanted to do. You know, he's a very adept writer. He's a very talented director, designer, and he also has a lot of specialties in magic and stage illusion. And I felt like that was just sort of the. The ideal skill set for someone to. To bring onto this. And also, he is, as a person and a collaborator, not someone who needs to step in and impose himself too much on the thing. I would describe working with him as more getting at the heart of what it wants to be and then helping it become that. And so we went through a very. It's. The show is very different than what I was doing for a year on the road, but it somehow feels like it's the same thing. It's just maybe we've gotten closer to its essence, closer to, like, you know, what its distilled form is. And I attribute all of that just to how easy it was to collaborate with him and Simon. And I feel very lucky that they said yes and that, you know, able to make it what it has become. Now for New York.

[Lauren Klash Schneider]

Words that I know are associated with the piece are willingness to be humiliated. Russian roulette. Will you describe a little bit, without giving too much away about what might be on the cards? That's incredibly dangerous or.

[Carl Holder]

Sure. I mean, I. I confess some very. I mean, all of it's real there. The show is. Is. Is. Is a sculpted reality. So if anything is omitted, it's. It's not for purposes of deceit. It's more just to focus on certain aspects that speak to the themes of the show. But everything in the show really happened to me, so it's very confessional in of itself. And there also are moments where the things I'm confessing, you know, maybe not every performer would want to include that in the show. And I would definitely say, in addition to just me being very forthcoming with events from my past that feel relevant to the themes I'm exploring in this piece, the show kind of takes a dark, humorous delight in making me do things that are just, like, understandably uncomfortable. Like, I get into the reality of my finances in a way that's extremely in your face. I talk a lot about what my life is like when I'm not fortunate enough to have a show up and running that I can share with people. So it's just very forthcoming in a way that we certainly have leaned into. Is. Is challenging for the performer to actually have to stand up and admit some of these things. And I think, again, the way the piece has taken its shape for New York, there's also a bit of, like I said, sort of mischievous delight in the fact that some of what we're saying is a little bit naughty and a little bit risky, but we're gonna do it, and I have to do it. The conceit of the show is that the show isn't over until I take every card out of the bowl. And if I can't complete the show for any reason, then I am retiring from theater forever.

[Lauren Klash Schneider]

Whoa.

[Carl Holder]

And again, we're leaning into sort of the dark humor of. No one created this challenge but me. You know, I. I, as much as I'm. I'm sweating and running around and. And being tortured, the joke of it is like, I. I created this gauntlet. I am the one that made this obstacle course that I am forcing myself to run through.

[Lauren Klash Schneider]

As a venue you've chosen or it shows you the East Village basement. And I. It seems as though in the gestation period of this whole piece, where it was performed has mattered a lot. How did the East Village basement become your New York home, and how do you feel about it?

[Carl Holder]

Well, as much as I knew that the show had to change, something that's been clear from jump, you know, because when I did the first iteration of this at the residency in LA in 2023, you had to share something that you were working on as sort of like part of your agreement with the residency. And those sharings took place in their rather spacious living room. When I left, something that I just felt like was right, and not just kind of incidentally right, but, like, right in a deep way, was that this piece wanted to happen somewhere very intimate, where I had close proximity to the audience and they had, you know, close proximity to each other. And then, you know, touring two living rooms, that. That stayed true. You know, it was very special to be welcomed into people's homes and into people's family and friend groups and share this very personal, very strange little show with them. And I knew that if anything were to be left intact, it was that when we did it in New York, it had to be somewhere that felt as intimate. You know, I was open to the dialogue of, you know, what do we have to do practically in terms of rent and ticket sales, but something that I was committed to, and I made sure everyone that was working on the show was committed to is that, you know, we wanted to do it somewhere that felt special and felt intimate for. For me with the audience and the audience with themselves. So everywhere that we looked and, you know, sniffed around was a smaller space, but that still could accommodate a show like what we were imagining. And then I feel like we had a few conversations going, but then once we started talking to East Village basement, it was just very clear that that was like the perfect home. Jacob and Elias, who run the space, have. Have wonderful tastes, and they're very, very kind and understanding hosts, and they've done everything to make this possible for us in the way that we wanted it to be. And it's the perfect size and scale. You know, it's the right room for the show that we want to bring. And it's in a fun neighborhood, too. There's something very appropriate about this being in the East Village, you know, the home of sort of avant garde downtown theater for, you know, decades. A rumor which I think is actually true. We've done a little bit of research. That building that we're in the basement of now, at one point in the history of La Mama, La Mama was based there before they moved now. So there's sort of a. A fun tie in history wise with. With shows of kind of a daring, experimental nature ending up not just in the Village or even just on 9th street, but in that actual building. So it was just the right venue in a million ways, and it just continues to prove to be the right home for it, because I feel like we've really brought the show that we wanted to bring to that space.

[Lauren Klash Schneider]

Oh, that's great. And it sounds like it's filled with friendly ghosts and Carl.

[Carl Holder]

Absolutely.

[Lauren Klash Schneider]

I thank you, Carl. This has been wonderful.

[Carl Holder]

Thank you. Yeah.

[Lauren Klash Schneider]

I'm Lauren Klash Schneider with Carl Holder, writer and performer of out of Order at the East Village Bas with friendly Ghosts. Thank you.

[C]

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