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Interview: Karen Ziemba on ‘Master Class,’ the power of teaching
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On this President’s Day Special Episode, Matt Tamanini is in conversation with Tony Award-winning actress Karen Ziemba. The Best Actress in a Musical winner for “Contact” is currently playing Maria Callis in “Master Class” at the Riverside Theatre in V...
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To a very special interview episode of Broadway Radio. My name is Matt Timminini. On this episode, I'm in conversation with the legendary Tony award winner Karen Ziemba. Karen is currently down here in Florida over in Vero beach playing opera diva Maria Callas in a production of Masterclass over at the Riverside Theater. The show is just running through this Sunday, February 23rd. It's already had a couple weeks in its run, and I had the opportunity to see it a couple days ago, unsurprisingly. She is incredible. This has long been one of my favorite shows ever since I saw it on Broadway with Tyne Daly and Alexandra Silver, Sierra Bogges and others. So it was a delight to chat with Karen. We talked about teachers and what they mean not only in the arts, but in her career, specifically where the line is in musical theater, let alone opera, between singing and acting, and much more, of course, in the show notes, I'll have information on where you can purchase tickets to see Karen Ziemba in Masterclass at the Riverside Theater through February 23rd. So check that out if you are in the area. All right. With all that out of the way, here is my conversation with the legendary Karen Ziemba. Well, Karen, I, I know that when you got down to Florida, it probably wasn't the exact weather that you would have liked, but I think for the last couple of weeks, it's, it's given you a good time to spend February somewhere other than New York City.
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Yes. I'm so grateful to be down in Vero beach this time of year. It's. We, we haven't had snow in New York City for the last couple of years, but this year it really has been an icy, chilly, very, very less more than chilly winter. And so it's. I'm so grateful to be here. It's been really lovely. The first two weeks was like in the 60s, but still, that's a lot warmer than the 20s, so. Yes, yes, it's great. It's wonderful here. It's really just perfect, you know, in the 70s is my favorite weather.
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B
Yeah, absolutely. Well, and you're, you're getting to work on what is one of my favorite shows ever with Masterclass and taking on a role that is both grand and big, but also very vulnerable in ways that I don't think a lot of people would associate with the real life figure of Maria Callas. Before we get into, like the nuts and bolts of Masterclass itself, I wonder who are the teachers in your life that have hopefully made a more positive impact on your life and career than maybe Madame Callas did with the students in the show.
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Well, I want to disagree with you right there. Even though I think it was tough for them to take in her criticisms and her coachings, because to be an artist, you have to be criticized and you have to be corrected if you want to do it right, if you want to do it well, and people just don't. Nobody wants to be criticized. But you learn so much from what your foibles are and how you can improve and being. For myself, growing up as a young ballet dancer, I mean, I was being criticized from day one. So I know from whence I came. And I, you know, traveled to New York when I became a teenager and had, you know, Russian ballet teachers, they don't take. They don't, you know, give you any slack. Precise. And I had voice teachers that have been very precise. Somebody. Somebody that I talked to yesterday said, like, oh, you remind me of my voice teacher from college when you play this role. So there are people out there like this besides Maria Callas. But, yes, there's so much to her. She's such a very deep and very complex human being. She was. And to be able to play all those different roles and to be able to convey so much with her singing voice, she had to have such a deep well. So much vulnerability and so much strength and so much sadness and so much joy. She had to be so very, very, like I said, complex to make all that stuff work. And that's what she's trying to instill in these young students. And at a young age, you don't always realize how. How deep your well is, because you have to be to age and become a realized person. But she's trying to bring it out of them, and that's kind of her goal, is to make it more than just about singing high notes and sounding pretty. It's about, who are you and what are you doing and what are you trying to say and what story are you telling? That's what a real artist does, and I'm interested.
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B
That's a point that I wanted to talk about, because you are somebody who has made not completely, but predominantly your career in musical theater, including doing some musicals with opera companies. So I feel like you probably have a little bit of the insight on that as well. But one of those debates between Callas and her students is how important is the vocal talent and the technique versus that true emotional connection to the character. Obviously, it's ideal if you have both. But I'm wondering from your perspective, where is the push and pull for those things. Does it depend on the show, the role, the individual song? If you have to have one over the other, is it uniformly always the acting, or does it depend on an individual circumstance? And how do you find where that line is with each given performance?
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Well, for example, take Stephen Sondheim's musicals. His. His work, his music and his lyrics are so, again, I hate to keep badgering this word, complex and interesting and human and not just happy, go lucky, but really very getting into the human psyche. So it's very important that you have someone that can relay those words. So you need somebody who understands, who's intelligent, who can act, and yet the music is so beautiful that to have a voice buoying that an incredible singing voice with technique is like. Is like the pent ultimate. However, because so much of his stuff is about really telling the story and conveying human emotions, feelings, and psyche, it is, I believe I would much rather see, for example, a Desiree Armfeld in A Little Night Music be more of an actress than a singer, as Glynis Johns was when she originated it. She wasn't a great singer. She could carry a tune, but she's a great actress. And it was like, oh, my goodness, I totally get this woman. And you can have somebody, you know, sing the heck out of it, and that's lovely, but you want somebody that really understands what he's trying to say, and you can't. You have to be an intelligent individual to do that. So I. It's really. It's really hard. I think that depending on whether it's opera, musical theater, and depending on the piece, definitely something that's really more sweeping, like, for example, Rodgers and Hammerstein, Lerner and Lowe, all these gentlemen that were in. Influenced by the great opera writers like Verdi, like Puccini, like Donizetti, they. That's what they grew up on. Strauss, all these. You know, and so they wrote sort of in that vernacular. And so they needed great voices to sing their songs, but once they were telling these other stories in English, it became more human. And so you needed somebody who could convey it from their heart and soul, too, not just with their voices. So you really need both. But it's. I like it much better when somebody's a better actor, to tell you the truth, you know?
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B
Yeah. And it's interesting that you put it in the context of that evolution of what musical theater is, starting from, you know, opera and into those Golden Age classics, into Sondheim. And now we're at a different point in musical Theater, where it seems to me, and you would know much better than I would as somebody who works in the medium, but so much is built up to these huge, big belt y notes. And if a song doesn't have that, the audience almost feels like they're being let down. But that also is not the easiest thing to do, not only once, but on a repeated basis. So do you see that idea of the vocal technique and the vocal requirements of musical theater versus the acting requirements? It's. Is that changing even now? Are you seeing it different than, you know, when Sondheim was at his peak in the 70s and 80s and into the 90s? Are we in a different part of musical theater now in that respect?
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Yes, I think a lot of the change comes with everything else, comes with the change of technology, the change in instrumentation. In an orchestra, you have everything. You know, so many things done on a synthesizer. Not only the piano, but you have the violin, the clarinets, the trumpets, the drums. You know, so much of it now because the orchestras have been made smaller just for cost purposes, that everything's electronic. So you have human voices that are competing with a lot of this electronic music. And some of it is like, it's beautifully mixed with sound engineers and with orchestrators who know how to do those kind of programs. But that means the human voice needs to be amplified so much too. And sometimes it becomes like so huge that it's not connecting to it. What you're hearing is blasting, and that's what people get used to hearing. And so when you get. And as far as, like the high note thing, you know, the holding those long notes, I mean, a lot of that has to do with, you know, everything that's in our culture now, from the Voice to, you know, America's Got Talent to what it's all about, what we see in our culture. That's what is applauded and what gets kudos and what is. It's almost like it's an athletic event. You know, if you can hold that note, then you're really special as opposed to somebody who's like necessarily feeling something. It's. It's interesting. It is an interesting switch. But I think if you could do both, that's great. However, as you said eight times a week on Broadway live, it's really a difficult task for anybody to do eight shows a week. And especially a musical where you're singing that kind of music way up in the stratosphere, you have to be a really well trained singer or you're going to lose it.
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B
You know, yeah, and let's not even talking about the dance requirements that go into some of those shows as well, as you well know, but.
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A
Oh, there's that.
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Yeah, absolutely. Well, that gets us back to Masterclass, really, really perfectly, I think. Because what I find always so interesting about this show, every time I see it, is how important that idea of. And you kind of mentioned it earlier, about being open to feedback and any performer, but especially, you know, in our world of theater, there's an inherent vulnerability to just being brave enough to do the job before you get on stage, to go through the audition process, to go through all of the training and all of those things. And I think the show really does a great job of showing how difficult that life is. You are working with a number of other performers in this show, and I'm interested to see what your thoughts are about working with those young people, not only in the context of this show, but also as cast members. When you see people who are beginning or a little earlier in their career than you are, do you try to kind of not only impart some of your wisdom to them, but also learn anything from them as well?
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A
Of course. And each one of them has very little time on stage. I mean, they're on stage a lot, but I. In the show, I don't want to. Spoiler alert. Don't want to give giving too much away. But because I'm coaching them, I have to stop them. And we need to, you know, talk about stuff and improve stuff and try something again. You know, try and try again. And so you're being interrupted, which is difficult because it's like you're, you know, getting ready to sing your high note, and she says, stop. Whatever. Something's not right, so we need to fix this. And it's just like learning any kind of craft or any kind of art. You have to go through those steps before it's a smooth line or it's something that makes sense or something that actually is going to work, so to speak. And the people that I work with in this production here at the Riverside Theatre in Masterclass, they're all incredible vocalists, and they're also great people, too. So we can talk about things. But I think a lot of it for me is just being who I am and setting an example of who, you know, Karen Ziemba is. And, you know, I've been doing this for 40 years now, and it's like I doing this business for 40 years now, and there's a reason why I'm still doing it. It's because you know, and I'm not saying that, you know, I'm no Meryl Streep, but who I admire greatly. But it's, you know, I'm a. I'm a survivor in this business. I'm somebody who is to keep. I keep learning myself. I keep asking questions. I keep watching and observing other people and learning from them and. And sharing what their expertise is, and that's what you have to do. It's as Maria Kala says, in the end, she goes, singing is not an easy life. It doesn't stop here. It's a lifetime's work. It doesn't stop here. And that's so true in my own life. It's like I have to keep working on it myself because especially as you age, the body changes, the voice changes. You got to keep strong. You know, it's like when you get older and you don't want to fall down, you've got to work on your body to keep it strong. It's just the same thing. And so, you know, it's just like how I. How I lead my life, how I act when I'm at the theater, how I prepare. They're all looking at that, and I'm watching them and seeing what they do, and they give me suggestions about things, too, you know, oh, I use this kind of. This kind of breathalyzer for my lungs to keep clear, or I use this neti pot to clean my sinuses. I mean, whatever it is we talk about, it's all. We all need all these different things to do a performance eight times a week.
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B
And I think that's so interesting because Maria Kalis is in this show on, you know, the other side of her performance career. Even though you do get to sing a little bit in the show, she talks about the fact that her voice is essentially gone, although we know that that's not necessarily completely true. But. But like you said, you are a survivor, as Maria Callas was somebody who. You have to kind of reinvent yourself, not only every time you have a new role, but as you grow in a profession. For people who are earlier in their career, whether they are the people like the ones in the cast with you now or somebody who is looking to have a career, how do you survive? Is it just being flexible and open to growth, like you said, or are there actual actionable things that performers have to. Have to be able to last? I guess.
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A
Well, when I talk to students, I always talk about all the different facets of the theater, which isn't always about being center stage, hitting the high note. There's so many different parts of the puzzle and people that make it possible for a performance to go on and people in this business have many different skills. And I know people that have been on an acting track like say at college and, but they took as, you know, as an elective, they start going, learning how to do the lighting design. And I have a Broadway, a good friend, Peter Kasarowski, who did the lighting for Steel Pier and many other shows that I did. And he started out as an actor in college and he decided to take the lighting class and he got really tight with this mentor, this, this teacher and he became like a Tony Award winning lighting designer because he just happened to have those gifts. He was, he had that kind of engineering mind. He, he could, he was a, he was obviously good with, you know, concept and seeing how things, how colors blended and he understood the electronics of it. He was just really good at it. And it's because, because he had this one mentor that just really turned him on and said, hey, this is what you can do. And there's this other part of himself who said, no, this is what I'm going to give to the theater is my skill in this way or, you know, and there's so many other things too, you know, as a stage manager. People who have been actors become stage managers because they understand the life of the actor, but they are incredible organizers. They are almost ocd. They have to be so organized and know what every, everything that's happening with the orchestra, with the house, with the box office, with the director, with the cast, with every, you know, who's coming into the airport, you know, that kind of thing. It's like there's so many jobs that are so important in a collaborative field like this that you might have some of those skills too. And yet you still get to be part of the theater, which is one of the most incredible arch there is because it's live. We, everybody needs everybody else, everybody's responsible for everybody else. That's why I love it. It's hard, yes, but it's like a family. And so I wouldn't trade it for anything. So I just try to, you know, instill in other people. Like there's a lot of other things you can do too, but as a performer, it's just like, like I said before, you never stop learning and really take care of yourself. Don't blow yourself out, you know.
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B
Yeah. Looking back on this long career that you've had, you have done a lot of new shows, you have done a Lot of revivals. This is obviously an established show. Just last, I guess it was fall, you did the new musical version of Prelude to a Kiss, which is hoping to have a, you know, a longer life as Broadway bound. All of those things. What are the different things that you take from those shows? Like, if you go into a show, I don't know if Maria Callas was ever, like a dream role or whatever, but if you go into shows that are established and you have some sort of idea as to who they are, versus a new show, a new piece that you are working on, where you get to help create it, what are the pros of each of those types of projects that you've experienced over the course of your career?
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A
Well, there are certain. Excuse me. There are certain roles, like Maria caras in Terrence McNally's masterclass, that it was like, somebody said to me, karen, we'd like you to do this role, blah, blah, blah. And it's like, you say, yes, no matter what. How daunting it is, no matter what your considerations are. You try to make it work because they don't come around like that too often. This is like a Plum Cherish role that he wrote for an actor to convey, to play this character and to say these incredible words and go through all these different emotions, it's just. It's just. It's a gift. And so when I was asked, I said, yes, I'm going to make this happen. This is going to. I'm going to do this. I'm going to go down to Vero beach and I'm going to do this role. And I'm really scared. But guess what? You're gonna learn it. And it's like thousands of words. Thousands. And it's just. But it worked. And so now we're doing it, because I remember seeing it on Broadway, and it was magnificent. And many great actresses have played the role, but now I get the chance to do it myself. And it was like, step up. You know, lift. Step up and lift. It's like that. Yeah. So as far as, like, creating a new role, of course, years back when I was doing a lot more big dance musicals, creating roles that had a little bit of everything. You had to sing, you had to dance, you had to act. And that's always a big lift, too, because you're learning so many different facets of the story through many different types of. Through movement, through music, through everything. But now it's. A lot of. It is just, you know, how do I fit into this piece? And how can I enable the director to help me make this better. And I don't always agree, but sometimes you have to at least say yes and try. Each time somebody gives you something to do and they say, you know, maybe it's better if I enter from this side of the stage because of blah, blah, blah, you. You can collaborate. That's that where that collaboration comes in, which is so important. And not everybody wants to collaborate that way, but the people that do usually get the job done and usually have a better outcome, I think, you know, I like people who want to collaborate with you as opposed to just say, this is the way you do it. Don't ask me any questions, just do it. And you do it once or twice. And if it's not working, you need to speak up and say, like, how about. And you do it, you know, you do it with respect, and hopefully you come to some kind of good solution together, you know?
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B
Absolutely. Yeah, absolutely. Well, I'll wrap it up here with a couple questions about Masterclass. First, specifically about this production. You have one week ish left of the run here in Vero Beach. For people who might not know the show, who might not know Maria Callas at all, what do you think that they can expect to not only see, but more importantly, what can they take away from this show in this specific production?
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A
Well, I feel that it's about someone who has. Was at the top of their game, the top. The one of the best in the world at what they do, and they are sharing it with those who want to be like that, who want to do that same profession and the things they need to learn to make that happen and how you have to be willing to stand up there naked and take somebody judge you, somebody tell you how to make it better. And it's not easy. You have to really be. Have broad shoulders and say, yeah, maybe I should try it this way. And I'm gonna. And I'm gonna work hard to do this and not put up your hand and say, stop. I can't handle this. I can't do it. Now, there are points where you, you know, of course, want to abuse somebody, and I don't believe in that at all. But in art, you have to be willing to take the criticism. Sometimes it's harsh, but you're so much better off if you learn from that person and hold your head up high and take the advice. I worked with Jerome Robbins, the famous Jerome Robbins who, you know, choreographed west side Story and many, many other musicals and many ballets. And he was mean, but it was the best choreography I'd ever done in my life. And so I had to hold back tears sometimes because he was so mean. But guess what? I'm still here, and I have a story to tell. And I got to do those incredible dances of his at one point in my life. So it's the, you know, the chinks in the armor and the knocks on the knocks on the head, and you just have to get back up and do it again and try. And each time, you get stronger and stronger. That works for me. It's not for everybody. If you don't need to do this, you don't need to do something, and you want to do something else. If you can do something else, fine. If you're willing to have to go through the rejection, through the criticism, and then the success of it and the adulation, you're going to make it. You're going to do okay. But you have to be willing to be knocked down a peg on occasion to get there.
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B
Yeah. Well, last question here. From your perspective, what is the best piece of advice that Madame Callas gives in the show?
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A
Well, one line I say is, there are no shortcuts in art. It's not like life, where things are so easy. You know, you can make things happen just because a click of a finger. No, there's no being at center stage without an entrance first and an exit after. And there's transitions, there's technique, there's discipline, and there's moot, which is courage. That's the hardest one is the courage, because that comes from your insides, from your emotions. And then she says everything else is kaka pibi doo doo.
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B
Is that Greek? Is that. Is that what that is? Is that a Greek phrase?
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A
I think it's Latin. It probably comes because I know they use it in Spanish. They use it in Greek. They use it in Italian. Yes, it's. But everybody knows what it means.
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B
Yes, absolutely. Yes, they do. Well, thank you so much for taking the time to talk about this. I had just seen the show on Wednesday night and was as mesmerized as I have ever been. So thank you so much for that. Thank you for chatting about the show and enjoy the last.
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A
I'm glad that you enjoyed it, Matt.
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B
Oh, yeah. I love it. And enjoy your last week in the Florida sunshine.
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A
Thank you so much. It was great talking with.