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Special Episode: Dane Laffrey on designing the world of ‘Maybe Happy Ending’
00:31:36
On today’s episode, Matt Tamanini is in conversation with Tony-nominated scenic designer and Tony-winning producer Dane Laffrey. Audiences are currently marveling at his design work eight times per week at the Belasco Theatre with “Maybe Happy Ending.
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- [00:01]
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- [01:07]
Matt Tammanini
Welcome to a special interview episode of Broadway Radio. My name is Matt Tammanini. On today's episode, I'm in conversation with the Tony Award winning producer and scenic designer of such shows as Once on this island, the 2022 production of a Christmas Carol Parade, and maybe Happy Ending, Dane Laffrey. In our conversation, we talk about the incredibly imaginative and unique designs that he did for maybe Happy Ending, which you can currently see on Broadway at the Velasco Theater, and how the visuals that he helped create helps to tell the touching story of Oliver and Claire. In our conversation we also talk about his working relationship with Michael Arden, who he has done five Broadway shows and a number of other productions around the country and world with what his process is when approaching each individual new project and why he has started getting into producing. In addition to his design work, Dane is also a part of Rise Creative along with Michael Arden, which in addition to maybe Happy Ending, has also co produced the Roommate and Sunset Boulevard on Broadway. So with all of that out of the way, here is my conversation with Dane Laffery. Dane, somebody told me this and I have not been able to find any official verification, so I figured you would be the expert. So I'm going to ask you directly, but is this is the concept for the apartments in maybe Happy Ending? Is that based on an actual building that had modular apartments that maybe never actually came to be? Is that real?
- [02:37]
Dane Laffrey
Yes, sort of. There is a. There is there was a building that we found highly inspirational. It was in Tokyo called the Nakajin Capsule Tower. And it was the sort of like, not basically the only example of this kind of like, conceptual arm of architecture called metabolism architecture that was kind of being talked about and thought about in the 70s. And the idea was that you would, you know, you would purchase a kind of like modular home that was like, like a pod full of all the most sort of modern conveniences. So in the 70s that was like an eight track player, right? And like, you know, you would set it up wherever you needed to be, but then if you needed to move, you wouldn't have to like dispose of your home in the traditional sense. You would be able to like take that home with you. But what happened to these places? And they were really, really small and, and they were sort of intended as like pied a terre for like Japanese salarymen basically. But what happened was that only one tower to hold them was ever built. So when we encountered them in terms of research, they were sort of falling into spectacular disrepair. And there was something about that, like, watching this kind of like utopian ideal collide with reality and sort of start to disintegrate, that felt like a really powerful idea in the context of the show and the characters. And so became bigger than just the visual reference points or the sort of like spatial reference points in terms of like, if you were to imagine where a, you know, a company that discovered they needed to do something about their obsolete technology that had become sentient enough that they couldn't just be disposed of, that it would have this kind of scale and sense of like, like efficiency and, and, you know, and a footprint that was as limited as it could possibly be. So there were a lot, there's a lot about that place that was really, really inspirational for us.
- [04:56]
Matt Tammanini
And that's like, hearing those background details is really interesting because I think it does really pull together both of the aspects of what I imagine your job is. And it is the physical side of things, but also the artistic storytelling side of things. When you start to go into a project, where do you start? Do you start with, okay, here's what the script says I need, so I'm going to work on the designs. Or do you start with this is what the story tells me I need, and you start working on what the aesthetic, I guess, is going to be? Or can you separate them?
- [05:32]
Dane Laffrey
I don't think I can separate them. Which I think is. Was going to be my answer to that question. I feel like those two things are kind of inextricably tied, for me, at least, and they have to be approached at the same time. So you kind of need to, like, start to meet a piece where it is, you know, artistically and conceptually and how it falls into the, you know, the context in which it's going to be received. And then also all of the sort of, like, practical considerations about, like, what it wants, which. Which are, you know, I suppose, about place, but they're often about, like, speed or, like, how quickly does it seem like this thing wants to move? Like, how fast do we need to go from A to B? Which in a musical is to a large extent defined by the music that already exists or the scene structure mixed with music that is sort of propelling you at a certain pace anyway. And so you sort of have to also think about those things. But for me, it's all at the same time. And you sort of by, you know, you work towards something that ideally captures all of those considerations into the. Into, you know, the most kind of, like, evocative and efficient package you can.
- [06:53]
Matt Tammanini
And specifically, with maybe Happy Ending, as we said before we started recording, we're going to. Not going to spoil any of the big things, but kind of a minor spoiler is that, yes, we have these apartments. They move. I think everybody at this point knows they move. But then you expand to a wider world outside of those apartments. When you are thinking about, like, you were just kind of talking about the. The speed and the efficiency and the different places that you have to move on set for this one. Specifically, what are the differences between those two worlds? When you're looking at the movement between the apartments, sometimes focusing on one apartment, sometimes focusing on two, and then in kind of a breathtaking way, pulling back into seeing this full world, what are the two different perspectives that you were working for, from a design perspective on those two things?
- [07:44]
Dane Laffrey
You know, I think with this show, with maybe Happy Ending, it was a lot to do with a sort of, like, range of scale. And part of what, again, I don't think a spoiler, but part of how the story is told is through this system of. Of, like, irises that lens the spaces for you. But they don't just, you know, lens one apartment or another apartment. Like, they do the lensing finer than that. And the show begins with just this tiny little image of Wabun Oliver's plant and expands a bit from there. And then you meet Oliver, and then you kind of meet the room. And when you first meet Claire, it's just like something moves Aside, and you just see her, it's like. It's as though you're in his pov, just encountering the thing in front of him that has just shifted. So we wanted to be able to go from there, from scale at that level of granularity into something that needed to expand hugely. And I think part of the reason why we were trying to create such a range is that at the end of the day, Broadway theaters are pretty small. And to conjure a feeling of vista or something with that kind of scope in the amount of square footage or cubic footage you have is challenging. And I think part of why it is pretty successful in the show is that we do kind of, like, start so small, and we build from something really tiny so that by the time you actually get that full expanse, you're like, oh, my God, I can't. Like, where does all the space come from? I didn't realize this volume existed here. And I think that's part of how it works. And so, yeah, it was really about creating a kind of range of scales from the very minute to the, like, as infinite as possible. But I think when you get into, like, the firefly scene, the idea is that that is, like, an infinite space that breaks the fourth wall and surrounds you and has no edges and boundaries, you know, that we go from, like, the tiniest box to the. You know, something that feels like you're in the cosmos or something.
- [09:52]
Matt Tammanini
Well, I think that's, you know, again, I don't know if this was done purposely or not, but, like, that kind of feels like a little bit of a metaphor for the show itself, where it is a fairly small show in terms of the cast size and all of that stuff. But then as you get into it, as more and more layers are peeled back, it really does feel all encompassing and expansive and emotional more than maybe you would think, oh, it's a musical about two robots living next door to each other. It is kind of beautiful the way that the scenic design overlays that, whether it was coincidental or, you know, specifically designed that way.
- [10:28]
Dane Laffrey
Yeah, no, I think that's right. And I think. And I think sometimes those are not your explicit intention when you make something. But. But I think somewhere underlying it, we knew that's the kind of thing we needed it to be. I think some of those ideas that are. To do that are a little more philosophical, I suppose, around, like, you know, what kind of environment will really, like, resonate or unlock the kind of the core of the piece or how an audience takes it in. Are not something you can immediately put your finger on and say, well, if we do this, then this will happen. But I think you can feel that you're building towards something that, you know, will have the right feeling, the right scope, will be in the right kind of tension with the story and the characters to like, to create that sense of, you know, that it is. That becomes, like, hugely involving, you know, And I. And I do think that the, you know, the physical production has a lot to do with that, and we're really happy about that.
- [11:32]
Matt Tammanini
Yeah, I think that so often we talk about the writing in musicals and we talk about the direction in musicals, but the physical aspect of that plays so much into it. And as I was kind of going through all of the collaborations that you've had with Michael Ardent, which is. I think this is the fifth Broadway show, with the sixth one coming up later this year. I think that's correct. Correct me if I'm wrong, though, right?
- [11:55]
Dane Laffrey
Yeah.
- [11:56]
Matt Tammanini
Okay. And all of them have been so visually interesting, but also very unique and very different, you know, from, you know, once on this island with the sand and kind of that in the round at Circle in the Square to what I thought was one of the most beautiful productions I've ever seen with A Christmas Carol. Just visually beautiful. When you start the process with Michael and with the rest of the creatives on any specific show, I guess because you've worked with him so often, how does that. I guess, how does that creativity work? Do you start with an idea and build from there, or is that. Do you kind of just get into a room and start throwing things against a wall and talk it out until you land on something?
- [12:38]
Dane Laffrey
You know, it depends. And I think what is really the most, you know, important part about it is that, like, we share so much vocabulary with each other, and we have built so much with each other. And, yeah, I think you're right about the count of the Broadway shows. But then you think about, you know, Parade we did three times. Christmas Carol we did twice. Spring Awakening three times. And there's been other things not on Broadway. You know, internationally and around the country, there's a huge body of work that. And just as a sort of like, shared knowledge and something that. And really a model that has been built together. And because of how closely we work together and that we're really in a true partnership artistically. You know, I. We. We start talking about these projects as they come up so much earlier than a design process would tend to start, meaning a moment where we're like, okay, right We've got a deadline. We've got to move forward in nine weeks. We've got to have this and this and this. We start so much earlier than that. So they kind of come in fits and starts, and, you know, we'll be talking about one project. Then he'll, you know, say something. They'll be like, you know, I was thinking about maybe happy ending, or I was thinking about this. And it will be a total, almost a non sequitur, but that, you know, you start to just chip away at it. And they could be like, oh, I saw a picture and I thought of this, or I saw something on Instagram, or I just. I had a dream and I thought this thing, and I wondered if what this could be. And so we really start to, like, chip away at things slowly, and I, you know, start to get a sense of what the other is, like, thinking about or leaning towards. And then at a certain point, with all of them, you know, like, I go away and do something, you know, I'll design something and come back. And usually it's just intended as a sort of, like, at a certain point, you have to physicalize these ideas, but they tend to be a really useful provocation to just be like, okay, so this is, you know, this is in physical form. What do we think? Do we hate this? Do we like this? What do we like about it? How does it feel? Like, where does it succeed? Where does it fail? You know, because finding what all of those kind of points are is super critical. And then you, you know, develop it from there. But, you know, we were talking about this the other day. I think what is so extraordinary about the way we work together is it just. It all. It is all part of one kind of shared story and shared collaboration. And I think that is sort of why the things are all so different, is that is. Is because we're not interested in, like, cultivating a style per se. You know, like, we're not trying to all the things that all feel the same, that we just, like, we approach the work from a kind of a really unique shared brain perspective. And thus, I think they evolve in their own way. And what we're much more interested in is not repeating ourselves as opposed to repeating ourselves. You know, we're really trying to find a new way every time. And once we've done something, you're like, all right, well, we did that. No more of this. We got to do the next thing. No more sand. You know, like, you gotta keep moving.
- [15:52]
Matt Tammanini
Yeah, well, I mean, speaking of doing something completely different, than the last thing you did. The next Broadway show that you guys are working on is the Queen of Versailles, which obviously had its out of town tryout already. Much different aesthetic than maybe happy ending. Obviously. When you are telling a story about opulence and grandeur, is that an exciting.
- [16:16]
Dane Laffrey
Challenge for a designer?
- [16:17]
Matt Tammanini
Or can it be overwhelming and a little bit daunting? Or I guess, again, like earlier, maybe a little bit of both. I think it's both.
- [16:23]
Dane Laffrey
I think it's both. And I think, you know, it. Of course, you know, it's not even so much of it's in Queen of Versailles is about opulence, but it was mostly about excess. Like, Queen of Versailles is about too much. And that's, you know, kind of interesting line to walk theatrically, I think, because it's, you know, you've got to find a way to express that that doesn't, like, overly burden the storytelling, you know, because again, that is a show that. That. That show moves at an incredible clip. And its structure is like. It's like 60 scenes or something. You know, it's really like, you know, we needed to find a way that both captured this. That sense of, like, grandeur and excessiveness that also was really, really light on its feet and nimble and you could just kind of like clip along to the next thing. And I think we have a pretty, like, interesting way into it that, you know, kind of gets you all the things you need. But a lot of that was to do with kind of like finding a. Or connecting to a central idea that, like, if you embark on a project in the way that the protagonist of that show does to, like, build the largest home in America, that would be this. This kind of all encompassing idea about family and the American dream and legacy. That. That is like an elephant on your back. Like, that is an inescapable idea that will affect every decision you make and every aspect of your life. And I think that is true of Jackie Siegel, who is the kind of person who has pushed that project forward. And I think it's, you know, it's true of the character in the show. And I think that's been the thing that, like, really unlocked it for us was like, there's no escaping this. You just have to be within it, you know, Which I think that's the idea that holds that show for us.
- [18:28]
Matt Tammanini
I live in Orlando. I'm about 45 minutes from the actual home. Did you guys come down to check it out in person?
- [18:36]
Dane Laffrey
Oh, for sure, yeah. Full tour.
- [18:39]
Matt Tammanini
Full tour, like, inside and everything.
- [18:41]
Dane Laffrey
And although yeah, the Seagulls have been very like, open about.
- [18:45]
Matt Tammanini
Oh, good.
- [18:46]
Dane Laffrey
They shared all of that with us, which was incredibly helpful and, and amazing. But it's a wit's. I mean, it's a wild like proposition. Right, you know.
- [18:59]
Matt Tammanini
Yeah. Well, in addition to all of the design stuff you have been working on, you're also represented on Broadway this year a couple times actually. Well, I think three times. Not only with maybe Happy Ending, but then with the Roommate and with Sunset Boulevard. On the producing side of things, I know you did Parade. You were a producer on Parade as well, but with Sunset and the Roommate, you're now listed as a producer on shows that you are not designing. So where did this side of your creative and show making endeavor kind of bubble up from?
- [19:33]
Dane Laffrey
Well, this is, you know, a partnership between Michael and myself called At Rise Creative, which, you know, came out of a desire to kind of understand the other side of the coin of making Broadway shows a little bit better. There is a kind of. There is a tendency to compartmentalize artists from the sort of like nuts and bolts of producing, which in our view, and I think I can speak for Michael here, doesn't make a great deal of sense. Like, we are interested in transparency. We want to understand the challenges. We want to, you know, Broadway is incredibly tenuous, as we know, and expensive and risky and all of those things. And the work on stage and the sort of like the balance sheet that goes along with that, we believe are just like, you know, completely connected to each other. And that if we as artists could have a better understanding of that and what goes into it and how the marketing works and whatever, that we would be better able to like make work that is the kind of work we want to make, but that is also like sustainable and is set up for success. So, you know, we started that idea with, with Parade and we, you know, got some amazing backers together and did that. And then, you know, subsequently we wanted to like, as you say, this season, you know, we. We did the Room in it, we didn't Sunset Boulevard. And we wanted to like, in that case, like support some work that we believed in and, you know, could expand ourselves a little bit, you know, just connect with some, you know, different investors and different general managers and different, you know, people on that side to just kind of like build towards something that I think we, we greatly hope is like looks a little something like the Hal Prince model where, you know, the producing and the directing and in this case the designing and the whole creative is all like, you know, it's it's one thing and I think we would be immensely excited to like, do that ourselves, to see more creatives doing it. I don't see a lot of creatives, like, there's a few, you know, but that like really want to engage in that side of things. And I think it's anyway, well, at least for, for us, I think we think it's a, a really interesting component to what we do and a texture and you know, we're going to be doing. We're taking a pretty big chunk for the Lost Boys, which we're doing later next season, after which we're, you know, doing a big raise for right now. And, and it's exciting and I think it just, it also, like, I don't know, I think, I think in our experience with the, the producers who we've been working with, they sort of love that we have skin in the game in this regard that we're willing to, you know, it's kind of like it's sort of literally putting your money where your mouth is a bit. And I think that's kind of. It seems good. I think it's good.
- [22:17]
Matt Tammanini
Yeah. Well. And you know, with your, both your and Michael's expertise and insight into things like picking good projects is a, is a good part to make sure that you're having some success with that. But I'll wrap up with a couple questions, one that I find fascinating because maybe happy ending, it obviously makes sense because of the story and the music that Oliver is really interested in. But why is it always a mid century aesthetic when we're talking about stories set in the future? What is it about that that just seems to be like the trope for whether it's Hollywood or Broadway or anybody telling a story set somewhere in the nondescript future.
- [22:58]
Dane Laffrey
That's interesting. I don't know. I hadn't really thought of it as a trope. I think for us it is all about Oliver's basically in his. Oliver's inheritance, right. That, that the obsession with Gil Brentley, who is a kind of, you know, is a mid century crooner, you know, figure and that, you know, we imagine that, you know, for Jane, you know, some of it is, you know, conjectural. Right. But like we imagine that like that is, you know, an obsession of James's that also goes pretty deep. And so when we spend some time in his, you know, in James's home and in sort of, sort of in Oliver's flashback as he's sharing that with Claire, you know, it is filled with Those kinds of objects and those pieces and those lamps and that art. And it felt like, so connected to the music. But most important, that they would be pieces that you saw Oliver, like, absorb the idea that he would absorb that he's like, you know, learned all of this from James. And actually there's many pieces that are shared physically between those two spaces. Like, Oliver has literally inherited things of James's. So, yeah, I think for us, it was purely germane to the story and not so much about an aesthetic as just about a set of things that you as an audience could connect to and then connect the dots between those two characters in those two times. And there's. And, you know, there's something about. I mean, there's something about Oliver that is incredibly nostalgic and that his, like, his sense of nostalgia, you know, fuels so many of his decisions that, you know, that just felt like something to, like, to lean into or express on some level.
- [24:50]
Matt Tammanini
Yeah, it makes sense for this show. I'm going to blame the Jetsons for everything else. Every other.
- [24:56]
Dane Laffrey
Well, the Jetsons was also made in, like, the 1965, so.
- [25:01]
Matt Tammanini
Yeah, well, that makes sense. It is mid century, and so everybody just assumes that that's what the future is going to look like. But. All right, I'll wrap up with this. You talked about some of the little Easter. I don't know if they're Easter eggs, but the things that are shared between kind of the past and Oliver's present. But what is something that, as audience are sitting down to watch, maybe happy ending that you are, I don't know if maybe proud of or like you're excited for them to discover about this show, whether it is a small little nugget in the corner of one of the apartments or one of the bigger moments. Again, no, not spoiling too much, but, like, what is something that you're like.
- [25:39]
Dane Laffrey
You know what?
- [25:39]
Matt Tammanini
This is the quintessential essence of what I wanted to do with the design of this show.
- [25:45]
Dane Laffrey
You know, I think I would answer that not with, like, a place that we land, but, like, the way that we move through between. Yeah, I really think that, like, the essence of what we have tried to make is something that just moves in a way you haven't seen before with a relentlessness you haven't seen before and with a. You know, what we've begun to think of as a sort of, like, willingness to create kind of transitional moments in space that are pretty risky and tenuous and that are, like, so exceptionally complex that they could, like, fall apart at Any moment that there's a sort of like, fragility in those moments that allows us to make, you know, a flow of the show and certain transitions that can kind of like, are hopefully at their best kind of mind blowing or that you really can't parse. Like you can barely understand what you're watching or how the things are relating to each other. And that, you know, has to do with a lot of different things happening at once in a very precise way. But I think the thing that like, really like tips it is that it's just so, you know, kind of like beautifully fragile. Like, the whole thing is, you know, it's for us, or at least for me, I find the show, like, incredibly nerve wracking to watch because I kind of know what's happening, I know what's coming up next. I know what the moments where things can go a little south. And I mean, I think it's thrilling, but I think an audience not knowing that just feels like your shoulders drop and you feel like you're in safe hands because the thing just like it just like we just take you on a journey and bring you back. And I think that's what I think is quintessential to the show and the thing that I'm the most proud of about how it looks and is it's just really about how it moves.
- [27:44]
Matt Tammanini
Yeah, well, one more question off of that, because I have to know. You talk about how nerve wracking it is for you to watch the show. Can you just kind of get without, like, I don't. I don't need the nuts and bolts, but like, can you talk about, like, how precise everybody backstage has to be to make sure that that thing moves both physically and in time, is able to move in a way that the audience doesn't really understand, how complicated it actually is?
- [28:10]
Dane Laffrey
Yeah, I mean, it's. The answer is like, it's incredibly precise. And we are so grateful to just an amazing family of stage managers and stage hands. And frankly, you have to count the ca in this because some of the things that they are needing to do and you know, in a certain pace is extraordinary. Yeah, it's. It's a. It's a. It's a very kind of like precision built machine, but it's not. But when I say machine, I really don't just mean like, machinery of which there is a lot, but like the combination of like this amazing, like, game set of human beings operating all that machinery, interacting with it, coordinating with it to make, you know, you would not be able to do the show without either party. Like, you could not do it without those people and you couldn't do it without the machinery. And it is the sort of, like, combination of them and the way they're deployed together that, yeah, it's wild. But it's a super, super challenging show for everybody working on it, I think. But I think in general, people seem to love that. I mean, I love going over to the Belasco. It is like the happiest, most warm, beautiful backstage experience. Everybody's having an amazing time and I think they all. I think that's to do with just an ethos around every single person rowing in the same direction. You're really working towards the same goal. And that at the end of a show that's gone really well, every single person in that building can and should feel super proud of the work they did that evening. Evening. Because it's not easy and a lot can go wrong and it is a little scary, but when it works, it's pretty transcendent. And I think that's exciting. And I think you can, whether an audience knows that or not, I think those are the kind of energetic things in live theater that you can feel. I think you can feel the electricity of something like that really working and like taking you from A to B to Z in like, you know, in 100 minutes. And you kind of walk and go like, wow, what on earth just happened? I love that.
- [30:27]
Matt Tammanini
It was a lot.
- [30:28]
Dane Laffrey
You know, that's how I felt about Our Christmas Carol too, which you mentioned. Like those. I think those shows have a. Maybe having Christmas Carol share a certain bit of DNA again in terms of the sort of, like the complexity of the machine and the fragility of the thing and that like you. Once you set a start, you can't stop and there's. There's nowhere. There's no rescuing yourself if you, if you, you know, you go, you know, get off. You really can't get back on.
- [31:00]
Matt Tammanini
Yeah. And then you. You throw in the element of live fire into A Christmas Carol as well. Like that, I'm sure, is another element that has to be maintained.
- [31:11]
Dane Laffrey
And that show just in pitch darkness, I mean, just absolute pitch darkness, all of this stuff going on. Yeah. Maybe having a little more like visible, you can see a bit more of what's happening in Christmas Carol. All that same things going on. You just can't see most of it, which was the intention. But yeah, I think there's something about both of those pieces really nerve wracking for us to watch. But I think really fun for an audience and, you know, pretty exciting if you can crack it. And I think that's the great. That's. I don't know, that's the thing that really, like, gets me out of bed in the morning. It's like really like cracking these complex problems and complex sequences and making like dynamic live performance that people are just like, wowed by. That feels so exciting.
- [31:59]
Matt Tammanini
Well, I think you have done it with this one for sure. And I cannot wait for Queen of Versailles and then Lost Boys and everything else that you guys have coming up. And I'm gonna. I'm actually trying to figure out when and where I'm gonna be able to see the parade tour as well, because I can't miss that group on the road as well.
- [32:15]
Dane Laffrey
Yeah. Awesome. Well, Matt, thank you so much. I really appreciate it.
- [32:36]
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