Stagecraft: Bess Wohl on Liberation

Summary

BroadwayRadio Podcast Summary: "Stagecraft: Bess Wohl on Liberation"

In the March 5, 2025 episode of BroadwayRadio's premier podcast, Stagecraft, host Jan Simpson engages in an insightful conversation with playwright Bess Wall about her critically acclaimed play, Liberation. The discussion delves into the play’s thematic depth, creative process, research methodology, structural innovations, and its profound impact on diverse audiences.

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1. Introduction to Liberation

The episode opens with Jan Simpson introducing Bess Wall and her latest work, Liberation, which is currently performing at the Roundabout Theater Company's Laura Pels Theatre. Wall provides an overview of the play:

Bess Wall [01:12]: “Liberation is a play that functions on a bunch of different levels and in a bunch of different time periods. It's really about a woman or narrator character searching for answers about the life of her mother and trying to understand who her mother was before giving birth to her daughter.”

Liberation explores feminism across various eras, focusing on the narrator's journey to uncover her mother's past involvement in 1970s consciousness-raising groups in Ohio. This search leads to reflections on how radical ideals from the past influence present identities and societal roles.

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2. Inspirations and Genesis of the Play

When asked about the inspirations behind Liberation, Wall reflects on her personal connections and long-term commitment to the subject matter:

Bess Wall [02:55]: “Liberation, I mean, I have been trying to write this play for like 15 years. It has been really a journey for me... I was really interested in those women and I looked up to them, and I was curious about them.”

Wall draws from her upbringing surrounded by second-wave feminism, influenced by her mother, a writer for Ms. Magazine. This background ignited her desire to portray the lives and transformations of women activists, bridging her personal history with broader feminist movements.

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3. Research and Character Development

Wall elaborates on the extensive research process that shaped Liberation, which included primary sources, interviews with women from the 1970s, and organic connections facilitated by her interviewees:

Bess Wall [06:51]: “I did speak to actual women from that time who had lived through the movement and who were quite active in the second wave and who had been in consciousness raising groups themselves.”

This rigorous research ensured authentic representation of the era and the complexities of the women's experiences. The characters in the play are amalgamations inspired by various women Wall interacted with, reflecting a diverse spectrum of perspectives without mirroring any single individual.

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4. Structural Choices and Theatrical Techniques

A significant portion of the discussion centers on the innovative structure of Liberation. Wall explains her use of direct address and multiple actors portraying the same characters to enhance the play's thematic resonance:

Bess Wall [13:33]: “I was excited when I realized that that was going to be an element of this play. It was sort of liberating for me to have a character on stage who could talk to the audience...”

This approach allows for a more intimate connection with the audience, fostering an interactive and dynamic theatrical experience. The narrator's dialogue with the audience and the fluid portrayal of characters by different actors underscore the play's exploration of memory, identity, and generational dialogue.

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5. Inclusion of Nudity and Sensitive Scenes

Addressing the inclusion of a nudity scene, Wall provides a thoughtful rationale rooted in historical accuracy and thematic significance:

Bess Wall [15:22]: “It was important to me. The play, in a way, is about many things, but one thing is female friendship and the intensity of female friendship and of intimacy in those friendships.”

Wall emphasizes that the scene is not gratuitous but a truthful depiction of the solidarity and vulnerability within the consciousness-raising groups. Collaborating with intimacy coordinator Kelsey Rainwater ensured that the portrayal was respectful and integral to the narrative.

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6. Reception and Impact

Wall shares the positive reception of Liberation among both older women who experienced the 1970s feminist movement and younger audiences discovering its themes anew:

Bess Wall [17:54]: “The women that I spoke with...have been very effusive about feeling very seen by the play.”

The play resonates across generations, highlighting the enduring relevance of feminist struggles and fostering intergenerational conversations. Wall is gratified by the diverse audience reactions, including men and individuals from varied backgrounds, underscoring the universal themes of identity, activism, and personal growth.

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7. Concluding Remarks

As the conversation wraps up, Jan Simpson acknowledges the play’s timely relevance and its inspirational portrayal of collective action:

Jan Simpson [21:06]: “What's also been really gratifying...people who have a wide range of backgrounds and experiences...has been incredibly meaningful to me and really has taught me a lot about the story that we're telling.”

Bess Wall expresses her appreciation for the dialogue sparked by Liberation and the meaningful connections forged between the play and its audience.

Bess Wall [21:37]: “It's been such a nice conversation, and I really appreciate it from my end, too.”

Jan Simpson closes the episode by inviting listeners to engage further with the podcast, fostering a community around theatrical discourse.

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This detailed summary encapsulates the essence of the podcast episode, highlighting Bess Wall's creative journey, the intricate layers of Liberation, and its impactful reception. For those interested in contemporary theater that bridges personal narratives with broader social movements, Liberation represents a compelling exploration of feminism's legacy and future.

Transcript

[Jan Simpson]

Every play, every musical begins with some writer putting words on a page. Hello and welcome to Stagecraft, the Broadway radio podcast that talks to playwrights and musical book writers about the shows they've created. My name is Jan Simpson. My guest is Bess Wall, the author of Liberation, a play about feminism past, present and future. It is currently running at the Roundabout Theater Company's Laura Pel's Theatre. Hello, Bess Wall. Welcome back to Stagecraft.

[Bess Wall]

Thank you very much. I'm so happy to be here.

[Jan Simpson]

We last Talked back in 2019 about your play, Make Believe. So you know the drill here and you know, I'm gonna ask you to start off by telling listeners who haven't had a chance to see it what Liberation is about.

[Bess Wall]

Liberation is a play that functions on a bunch of different levels and in a bunch of different time periods. It's really about a woman or narrator character searching for answers about the life of her mother and trying to understand who her mother was before giving birth to her daughter. And what the narrator discovers is that her mother was in a consciousness raising group in the 70s in Ohio. And consciousness raising for people who don't know is that they were common in the 70s. Groups of women who came together to sort of raise their consciousness or find a higher understanding of their own lives with the idea that if you could understand the systems of oppression in your own life better, you could make changes that would ripple out into larger social change. So our narrator discovers that her mother was in a consciousness raising group and sort of goes on a journey to understand her mother's radical past and also sort of to understand how her mother went from being such a radical in the 70s to becoming a more quote unquote traditional wife and mother later in life. So Julia, asking questions about how. How we understand our parents lives and can we ever fully know who our parents are beyond their function in. In our own lives.

[Jan Simpson]

I know from our previous conversation that you draw on multiple sources to inspire your works, but could you talk a little about what were some of the main things that inspired this play? Sort of the genesis of this play?

[Bess Wall]

Yes, of course. And thank you for remembering that that is true. There's never just one thing for me. It's always sort of a bunch of different forces and ideas that come together. This play, Liberation, I mean, I have been trying to write this play for like 15 years. It has been really a journey for me. I knew that I wanted to find a way to write about certain elements of my own childhood and my own background when I was a kid, really Very small. My mother was a writer for Ms. Magazine for a time. And so in the great tradition of feminism and women's rights, I would go to miss with her. And I knew a lot of her friends from the time. And I was brought up with the ideas and aspirations of second wave feminism as sort of really part of the foundational elements of my childhood. And so I was really interested in those women and. And I looked up to them, and I was curious about them. And so I always knew that I wanted to write something about them. And it took me a long time to figure out how to do it and. And what. What I wanted to say and. And what my approach would be. And I think the. The thing that really cracked it open for me was introducing this character of a narrator, a contemporary narrator who is on a search for answers in the same way that I was on a search for answers when I wrote this play. You know, the play itself is not autobiographical. I wouldn't call the narrator a stand. And for me, really, she's on her own journey of trying to understand her mother. But some of the questions that she's asking and the themes that she's trying to excavate are themes that I was trying to excavate, like, you know, how. How to navigate the constant conversation in my own life between love and freedom and how to maintain your radical self and potentially become a wife or a mother. All of those questions were things that I was dealing with the narrator in the play. Her mother has passed away before the play begins. For me, my mother was at opening night and been part of this conversation with me. And beautifully, you know, my search for answers. I was able to be in conversation with my mom throughout this process. And so there's a sort of imagined conversation that the narrator in the play has with her mother that was an actual conversation that I was able to have with my own mother in the making of this play, which was a really sort of lovely and special part of this experience for me.

[Jan Simpson]

Was the conversation prompted by the play?

[Bess Wall]

Yeah, yeah. I was writing the play, and I was asking these questions, and I knew that without giving away too much for people who haven't seen the play yet, I knew that I wanted the narrator of the play to have a moment of conversation with her mother and to be able to ask her mother some really deep questions about her mother's life. And so I was able to do that with my own mother. And I think, you know, so much of what the play about is also sort of what is the burden for us as the sort of next generation, or as you know, children of that generation. What's the burden on us to sort of seek those answers and understand and ask the important questions before it's too late? You know, it's a shared burden. It's a burden on their generation to sort of pass down these lessons. But we also have to ask, and that's part of what the play is about.

[Jan Simpson]

Now you were able to have this conversation with your mom and you were also had sort of a front row seat, going to miss with your mom. But did you do any other kind of research for this play? Talking to maybe some of your mother's friends or reading biographies of women from that time? Did you do any other sort of research?

[Bess Wall]

Yes, I did. That was a big part of my process because, you know, obviously whatever I gleaned as like a 3, 4, 5 year old was not exactly, you know, material that I could. I mean, some of it honestly does underpin the play. Just a sense of these really primal memories that are so powerful and so alive still. So some of it, I think, did give me a certain kind of sense of, I don't know, like an authority almost of having been there even as a three year old. But I also obviously had a lot of research to do in terms of understanding the period and the people who lived through it. So a lot of it was consulting primary resources, books, documentaries, watching interviews, television shows from the period. All of that was part of it. And then another piece of it was speaking to actual women from that time who had lived through the movement and who were quite active in the second wave and who had been in consciousness raising groups themselves. And a very sort of lovely organic thing happened where I would speak to one woman and then she would say, you know, oh, you've got to talk to so and so. And then she would say, you've got to talk to so and so. And it was very interesting to talk to them about both what they experienced then and what they were feeling about our current political landscape and, you know, to sort of see what. What had changed about their feelings about activism and what was still the same.

[Jan Simpson]

I'm really interested in how you chose the characters you decided to focus on, because there's a group of five or six women that we follow in this play and they're very different kinds of women. And so how did you come up with these particular women?

[Bess Wall]

Yeah, they're a quiet, eclectic group. The way that the group is formed in the play is that one of them, whose name is Lizzie, who's the Mother of the narrator of the play has put up flyers because she wants to create this consciousness raising group. And so she's put up flyers. And these are the women who've responded. And I think she probably expected to get a few more respondents than she. Than she gets. You know, we played around in rehearsal with versions where she set up like 25 chairs, but only like five people come. But the people who come are a varied group. And that was important to me because I wanted to find a way to involve a lot of different perspectives without making it feel overly rigged. Like, oh, one person like this, one person like that. You know, it's a. It's a fine line, that sort of calculation. So I knew that I wanted to include a range of people. And I think some of them were influenced by women I spoke with. Some of them were sort of blends of people that I either knew about from my mom's past or knew about from research that I'd done. You know, they're kind of hybrid. None of them is a one to one of any particular person. But they do sort of take inspiration from different women that I spoke with. And it's such a strange thing. Like, what inspires you or sticks with you as a playwright? There's something a little bit magical about it, you know, to try to sort of really find out where, where these characters came from. As I told you, I've wanted to write this play for so long. And then I. Not to sound too woo woo about the whole thing, but I started researching and then I started to sort of see in my head this like, waiting room where these women were sitting, like, waiting for me to tell their stories. And I didn't, I was busy and I had a lot of other projects and I couldn't get to them. And I could feel them just sitting there in this waiting room saying, like, we're ready, we're here. We're waiting for you to show up and write this play for us. And so I really, I really kept sort of saying to them in my head, hold on, I'll get to you. I'll get to you. And as they sat in the waiting room, I think they became more and more specific for me. And then I went to an artist retreat in Florida called the Hermitage. That's just this incredible, incredible place. And the play kind of just poured out of me in like two weeks, you know, a very rough draft. Not at all like what you song on stage, but like a version of it. And then. And I think the other women there were. There were I think it was almost all women. There was one man at the Hermitage with me. Just their voices and their art also sort of inspired me and worked its way into the play in sort of surprising ways. So that's a long answer, but it's hard to talk about inspiration. There's something sort of like, who knows where it comes from?

[Jan Simpson]

Were there women who you had to take out, or did you look at the group and say, oh, I need X?

[Bess Wall]

That's such an interesting question. There was never a character who sort of made it through a full draft or even a partial draft that then I removed. Those women who are in it were really the women who were in it from the beginning. The end of the play changed a few times, sort of. I'm not a playwright who ever outlines or knows where they're going when they start. Which is unfortunate, because sometimes it turns out that I'm going nowhere. I have to abandon the whole thing. But I cannot. I shouldn't say I can. So far, I have not been able to really know where I'm going when I set out and write something that feels alive and dynamic. So I knew that these were the people in the play. And that kind of stayed the same through all the different drafts. But the realization that I was heading towards a sort of moment of connection between the narrator of the play and her mother. That was something that I discovered multiple drafts in. That wasn't the climax of the play. In my earliest drafts, I'm also really.

[Jan Simpson]

Interested in the structure of the play. Because the narrator interacts with the audience a bit. She also has other actors on the stage assume different roles. And I'm just wondering, how did you come up with this approach?

[Bess Wall]

Yeah, I had never written a play with what they called direct address in it before. You know, with a character who can talk to the audience. It just had never come up for me as a mode of storytelling that matched the stories that I was trying to tell. So I was excited when I realized that that was going to be an element of this play. And it was sort of liberating for me to have a character on stage who could talk to the audience, who could admit mistakes, who could say things like the narrator says of, you know, I think I'm doing a bad job. I don't know what I'm doing. I don't know how to tell this story. Story, like being able to show the themes of the making of the piece within the piece itself, was interesting to me and felt freeing. So I think that was something that I was very much Exploring in the. In the structure of the play and then being able to sort of embrace theatricality, you know, have multiple actors play the same character at different points in the play was really interesting to me as well. You know, to sort of do something in the theater that you just can't do anywhere else. You know, you can't do it in a movie. You can't like to really make a piece that belongs in the theater, and that's not possible in other. Other mediums. Felt really exciting to me as well.

[Jan Simpson]

Well, I don't think it's giving away anything to say that there is nudity in the play because the phones are locked up when you enter the theater to protect the privacy of the actors. Why did you decide to include that scene?

[Bess Wall]

It was a bunch of reasons. One reason was in all the research that I did and the people I spoke with, this was an important element of consciousness raising group. The meeting in the nude and the sort of expression of intimacy in that way was something that they did in the 70s and that the women that I spoke with were still very proud of. And it was sort of something that they really featured in our conversations. So there was just that piece of. You know, that piece of. It was important to me. The play, in a way, is about many things, but one thing that about, I think, is female friendship and sort of the. The intensity of female friendship and of intimacy in those friendships. So I think the nudity also felt like a natural expression of that. And I felt that there was something radical and important about including female nudity in a way that's not sexualized or gratuitous or exploitative, but that's really sort of honest and truthful. And it was difficult. You know, it was not an easy decision. It was something that talked about a lot. And we had an amazing intimacy coordinator, a woman named Kelsey Rainwater, who really walked us through the process and made sure everyone's boundaries were respected and had a lot of private conversations with the actors. And. And I had a lot of conversations with Kelsey as well, because she. She being an intimacy coordinator is very attuned to the idea that nudity can often be gratuitous and playwrights or directors will add it in just for some kind of shock value. And, you know, it was like, through working with her that I was able to make sure that that wasn't what this was. And it meant a lot to me that she felt that this. This expression of nudity on stage was respectful and essential and crucial to the storytelling and belonged in the play. And belonged in the theater.

[Jan Simpson]

As you say, the play works on so many levels. Because another thing it does, and it does it without hitting people on the head, is it deals with gender and it deals with race. And so it really works on just a lot of different levels. And I was wondering if any of the women that you interviewed, including your mom, what their response was.

[Bess Wall]

You know, the women that I spoke with. And I'll just say my mom also. And so far, just women of the generation that was active in the 70s who've come to the play have been very effusive about feeling very seen by the play. And that means a lot to me. And I think, you know, the fact that the play embraces and sort of tangles with some of the complications of that time doesn't sort of paper over the difficulties, but also acknowledges the achievements and the bravery of those women. That's the balance that I was trying to strike. It was difficult because it would be easy to imagine a play celebrating these amazing women or a play that's just incredibly critical and some takedown. I didn't want to do either of those things because I don't think that's. I think any movement has instances of incredible heroism and things that are thorny and difficult that we're still reckoning with. So that was really wonderful to see. And then what's also been really gratifying, honestly, is seeing younger women come and also find their own points of entry into the play and be moved by it. And I should say, not just women, people of all genders, people who have a wide range of backgrounds and experiences. Experiences. And who identify in a wide range of ways to be able to reach them with this kind of a piece has been incredibly meaningful to me and really has taught me a lot about the story that we're telling.

[Jan Simpson]

When I saw the play, the person who was having the most obvious response was a guy who looked to be in his 20s. And he was so into your play. He was nodding. He actually did a. Then there was a moment where he put his head in his hands. He was so emotionally moved. So this is a play that works for, I think, a lot of different demographics.

[Bess Wall]

I loved hearing that. And I think because in part, the play opens with the narrator coming on stage and talking directly to the audience with the. The house lights still up, you know, inviting a conversation. And people do talk back to her. Not every night, but there are some responses. There's something about that opening and I'm sure also the subject matter of the play that sort of invites conversation with the audience. And more than any play I've ever done, people seem to be really having strong feelings and often sharing those feelings with the rest of the audience and. Or with the actors on stage. And I love that. You know, the goal in making this was always to make a play, but also to have it feel almost like a theatrical happening. Like we're gathered together. We're all in this conversation together.

[Jan Simpson]

Well, I think also what's going on in the world right now, it's also a bit. Without overstating it, it's a bit inspirational. And I think people really welcome this reminder of women, people coming together and trying to make a change and make a difference. So thank you for doing that and thank you for talking to us about it.

[Bess Wall]

Well, thank you. It's been such a nice conversation, and I really appreciate it from my end, too.

[Jan Simpson]

And thank you for listening. I hope you'll come back next time. And if you have any comments, questions, or suggestions, please send them to [e-mail].