B (5:24)

Now you mentioned that you majored in cognitive science. I'm not sure that I know what that. So I'm going to ask you a double barreled question here. One, could you briefly Define what cognitive science is. And then could you say, how did you end up as a playwright?

A (5:47)

Yeah, well, so, yeah, cognitive science is an interdisciplinary field of study. The kind of most straightforward way of thinking about it is that it is a. I took classes in computer science. I took classes in psychology, and I took classes in philosophy. Those. Those are the three major fields of study that kind of add up to cognitive science. The way I like to think about it is the study of the relationship between minds and machines. It's the study of the relationship of how the human brain is like a computer, how you put a human brain into a computer, how you create interfaces that can help human brains interact with computers. And more broadly, though, part of the thing that really excites me as a dramatist is just the idea of what does it mean to be innately human? Right. Like, what are the things about being human that can be put into the algorithm? But more importantly, what are the things about being human that can't? What is innately human in a technological world? That was very intellectually interesting to me. But also, as I have started my playwriting career, I also find those questions very dramatic. And I think definitely, data is, as a play is very much concerned with that question of, are we our data? Like, is there something deeper within all of us that can't be quantified? And I think the play really tries to grapple with that. And so, to answer the second part of your question, I've always wanted to do what I'm doing right now. I've always wanted to be a writer. I've always wanted to write plays and movies and anything. And the advice that I got as a high schooler about to go into college was the only thing more important than knowing how to write is having stuff to write about, like following your passions, learning about a ton of stuff, and then using whatever skills you have as a writer to explore those things that are exciting to you. And so I went to Stanford expecting to be sort of psychology, maybe creative writing, you know, maybe theater. Pretty kind of open to. To what was interesting to me. I ended up taking more computer science than I thought I was going to. And, you know, basically by the time I ended my sophomore year when you had to declare your major, I looked at the classes that I had been taking, and I realized that just kind of following my instincts of what was interesting to me, I had ended up with, like, half of a cognitive science major. And so I. That's what I just committed. And definitely part of what the play is about is about how the world of Silicon Valley makes computer science very attractive to young people. But I was writing the whole time.

B (8:03)

It doesn't sound as though you needed to, but did you do any additional research for data, talking to friends who are in the industry, or additional reading?

A (8:18)

Absolutely. I mean, you know, as I, as I said, I started writing this play eight years ago and obviously the tech industry moves a lot faster than the theater industry. And so, you know, people who come see the show might be surprised to know that the core of the play is the exact same thing that it was in 2018. But a lot of the details around it have had to be updated over the years. By which I mean, you know, when I started writing this play, ChatGPT did not exist. Right. And the thing that we're talking about in the play is different than ChatGPT. But I also know that when people come in to see a show about quote, unquote, AI, they have a very specific thing that they're thinking about. Right. And so a lot of the work I've had to do over the years is try to just be very, very specific about the way that I'm describing the technology in the play and acknowledging that people are coming in with a different mindset than they might have come into the play with if the show had premiered in 2018. And as I said, this stuff fascinates me. And so I just recreationally follow AI news. I'm pretty consistent with keeping up with AI research. And specifically, you know, companies like Palantir that are a little bit less public facing than some of the big tech giants. I keep very up to date with their technological advances and their business practices. And then, yes, obviously having a lot of friends who work in the tech industry is really helpful. I've never worked at a tech company, so there are the little details, right, of like, I need the characters to, you know, to have a certain workplace problem that they're dealing with. And I have a bunch of people I can reach out to to be like, I need there to be something happening at the company that accomplishes X, Y and Z. Can you give me examples of what might be that at a tech company? And, and yes, having a broad network of people who work in tech definitely helps get those little details right. And I think that's been part of the reason why I've been able to hopefully write something that feels pretty current.

B (10:19)

Well, let me say to listeners, as my question about what is cognitive science suggests, I am not tech fluent. And yet it was very easy for me to follow what was going on. Was that a challenge for you to translate it for someone like me who has so little knowledge? Was that one of the challenges for you?

A (10:47)

Definitely. There are two kind of competing strands when you're writing a show like this, which is one, you want the play to be authentic. Right. Like I. I really was very excited by the idea of putting real corporate doublespeak and real tech jargon. And just like these characters talking the way that they would actually talk in, you know, there's this presentation meeting scene in the center of the play that I wanted to feel as truly like you were watching a corporate meeting as possible. But as you say, the other strand is trying to make sure that the audience can follow along with what the characters are saying or just being cognizant of what's important to know. And Raffaelli, the director and I worked really hard to try to make sure that you both get the thrill of kind of just going behind the curtain of a world that is kind of a black box, but also that anything that is important for the audience to track, you get.

B (11:45)

Now, although the play deals with the ethics of technology, it also takes on other issues. Class, race, sexism, immigration. Why did you decide to expand that palette of issues?

A (12:05)

Yeah, I mean, to be honest, it was trying to write something truthful to the experience of Silicon Valley. One of the things that I'm very interested in as an observer of Silicon Valley is the way that the world of it kind of presents itself as one thing, but then the experience of being inside it is. Is different. There is a sort of presentational aspect to. To life as an engineer in Silicon Valley. There's the kind of, we really value you as a human being. We're going to give you a ping pong table and nap pods and all of these perks so that you can really bring yourself to it. But, you know, the sort of wild west of Silicon Valley of these places being like anti bureaucratic, like anti capitalistic libertarian utopias, that's just kind of not the case anymore. And at the end of the day, a lot of these companies do function. The bureaucracies that maybe they claimed that they were rebelling against. And I say all that to say that it makes being an individual in a company like that very tricky. And I think it's something that a lot of the characters are grappling with over the course of the story is what does it mean to be an individual within a company with that kind of tension? You know, the female character in the show, Riley, is. Is consistently dealing with the same sort of latent sexism that was not expected from this kind of utopian industry, but is very much the kind of thing that exists for female engineers. And so that's all to say that I was very interested in how to show the characters trying to be both members of the team, the collective, the company, and also just really trying to zero in on the things that are making it impossible for them to be their full selves in the company. The other thing I'll say is in the world of Silicon Valley, there is a bit of separation from the effects of your work. When you're at a company like Palantir, let's say there is a lot of discussion about how you're doing work with quote, unquote, impact, but very rarely do you really, I think, face the reality and the consequences of that impact. And so a lot of what the story is about is like these individuals with their own sort of tensions within the workplace, confronting the real, true, actual impact of their work. Not the sort of amorphous, you know, buzzwordy version of impact, but the real, true impact of what it means to be a. A person working at a company like this.

B (14:49)

One of the storytelling devices, and you referenced it just a minute ago, is the use of ping pong.

A (14:58)

Yeah, yeah.

B (14:59)

Was that always a part of the. The show? It opens with two guys playing ping pong, and at certain intervals they play again. Was that always there? And why?

A (15:16)

Yeah, when I write a play, it typically starts with an image or some sort of theatrical conceit that is exciting to me, and it's what the rest of the play comes out of. I for data, the first image I had of the play was two young people playing ping pong having a incredibly complex moral discussion which happens later in the show. So, yes, the ping pong was a part of it from the very, very beginning. It's always very exciting for me when you. You can have something actually happening on stage, like, we're not faking the ping pong, they're actually playing ping pong. And so at first there was just a part of it which is like, oh, this is cool. But as I started developing the play, and specifically, a lot of the stuff I was saying before of, you know, the way that these companies present themselves is very kind of bright and sunny and fun in games, often obscuring a more dangerous, darker core, there felt to me to be something really interesting that as a symbol, the ping pong table could kind of take on that metaphor over the course of the show. And so at the Very beginning of the show, as you say. The first image of the play is two characters playing ping pong and having this very vibrant, buoyant conversation about life in Silicon Valley and about how cool it is to be working at this company and the cool projects that they're working on and, and Taco Tuesdays and like all this fun stuff. And then again, without spoiling it, by the end of the show, Symbol of fun and games has become much more dangerous and much more personal. So, yeah, it was one of these things that you write and then you're in a rehearsal room and you have two actors who have to memorize pages of very fast dialogue and then you're also acting them. Play ping pong and not mess up. You know, like, so far we have not had a ball go into the audience that, you know, if they mess up, they just calmly pick the ball back up and get back to it. It's not Marty Supreme. It's not like competitive ping pong, you know, but hopefully it does take on this sort of weight over the course of the show.

B (17:13)

I've read one of your other plays in Athena Technologies. The company in your play appears there too. And I'm wondering, are you going to be revisiting Athena Technologies in future work?

A (17:31)

What you're referring to is I wrote a play called the Machine, which is about a poet who is faced with a poetry writing computer. Play actually was set in the present day until ChatGPT came out and made the play kind of obsolete. And so I went back and set it in the 90s. But yeah, I've written three plays about AI the machine, data, and then another play that I wrote called Sisters. Sisters doesn't explicitly name Athena, but it's pretty clear that it's the same company. But you know, the Machine is set in the past and is about generative AI. Data is set in the present and is about predictive or analytical AI. And Sisters is set in the future, and it's about sentient AI. I wrote all of those plays before ChatGPT came out and before AI was kind of part of the, the conversation. And so there's a part of me that's like, I have this neat little trilogy of plays that's my kind of AI Athena trilogy. And maybe that's a good place to leave it and I can go write about other stuff.

B (18:32)

Well, in the meantime though, I hope people get to see Data at the Lucille Lortel. And I want to thank you for taking the time to talk to us about it.

A (18:45)

Thank you so much. This was great.

B (18:50)

And thank you for listening. I hope you'll come back next time. And if you have any comments, questions or suggestions, please send them to me@janbrudleyradio.com.