James Marino (3:17)

Also with us is Michael Portantier. Michael's a theater reviewer and interviewer.

Instacart Announcer (3:21)

He.

James Marino (3:21)

He's the founder and editor of castalbarviews.com he is also a theatrical photographer whose photos have appeared in the New York Times and other publications, and he writes reviews of cabaret shows@nightlifeexchange.com Additionally, Michael is known as a producer and director of shows at 54 below Laurie Beechman and other venues. Hello Michael.

Mark Kudish (3:43)

Hi.

Peter Felicia (3:45)

Hello.

James Marino (3:46)

I need to do a little bit of catch up with Broadway radio terrier stuff. Last week, starting Monday, was the return of Matt Tamini. As I previewed last week, he his kickoff show last week on Broadway premiered where last Monday. And then he went on to have five shows last week. I don't think that's going to be the normal for Matt, but he had a lot of content built up. He talked about the national tour of N. Juliet at the Dr. Phillips center in Orlando. He premiered the show called Broadway Grosses Report where he talked about last week's Broadway Grosses. He had a special episode where he spoke to Autumn Hulbert on Come From Away at the Maltz Jupiter Theater. And then he finished the week with Grace Otke in a review recap of Tracy Letts Bug, which was the official opening. And we will talk about Bug next week with Jenna, Tessa, Fox. And then finally yesterday in the feed, we had the latest episode of Jan Simpson's all the Drama the Time of youf Life, the 1940 winner for the Pulitzer Prize for drama. Michael Peter, have you ever seen a production of Time of youf Life?

Peter Felicia (5:13)

A couple of them, yeah. In small venues. Even though it's a big cast, it it's not unlike the Iceman Comets, even though of course, it predated it. But a lot of people sitting around in the bar, so you need a lot of people to do it. And so that's why I've seen it off off Broadway twice, but that's about it.

Michael Portantier (5:31)

And the only place I've seen it was in community theater on Staten island for the same reason, I'm sure.

James Marino (5:36)

Yeah, I'm sure Jan chatted with the head of the William Saroyan foundation and lots of interesting tidbits on Sir Ryan, who I get the impression from this discussion I don't really know much, but a complicated, difficult person, notoriously so.

Peter Felicia (6:08)

Yeah.

Michael Portantier (6:08)

And as many as many musical theater fans will know at least the name from that great line in the song Zip from Pal Joey.

James Marino (6:18)

Yeah.

Michael Portantier (6:19)

Will Sir Ryan ever write a good play?

James Marino (6:25)

Well, he wrote a Pulitzer, so check that out in your feed. Of course, our Patreon listeners, this is old news for them because they've had it for weeks, but it Went available to the public just yesterday. With us this morning, we have a very special guest. Mark Kudish is with us. Broadway fans will know that Mark has appeared in 18 different, different productions on Broadway. He's a three time Tony nominee. He's a Drama Desk winner. A five time, five time Drama Desk. That's a tongue twister. Five time Drama Desk nominee. Mark, thank you for getting up on a Sunday morning and chatting with us on Broadway radio.

Mark Kudish (7:07)

Oh, sure. Thank you for having me, guys.

James Marino (7:10)

So last week, Mark, we were, we were talking about Charles Kirsch's Production over at 54 below.

Michael Portantier (7:20)

Backstage babble.

James Marino (7:21)

Backstage Babble. And Peter and Michael were mentioning that you were there. And I was like, oh, we haven't talked to Kudosch in a long time. Let's see if we can get him back on. But we also had a question about, there was a chat about your appearances in opera. So why don't you start us off out of the box and tell us about your opera appearances.

Mark Kudish (7:46)

Wow, that's wild that you bring that up. I just finished doing, you know, the Prototype Festival, which is the premier festival for new modern opera in this country. We just did their gala opening literally just two nights ago for a couple of nights. And we were. It was just sort of like what she calls Beth Morrison, who is the producing artistic director of it, the her song book. And it was. Oh, it was amazing. The work over the last 20 years that prototype was done. And it's the first time there's been a compilation book of modern opera works. And anyone that is a classical singer knows that when you were training or you came up, you always had your book of like Italian arias or, you know, it was like this classic Schirmer. Remember Shermer? The music store Shermer?

Michael Portantier (8:42)

Yes, yes.

Mark Kudish (8:43)

And, you know, they had their classic, you know, like American aria book. And everyone had it. You had it. And there hasn't been anything like that in, I mean, honestly, almost half a century. Half a century. And the work that, you know, Beth has been doing, the pieces that she's been supporting, it's amazing work. And for me, I mean, when I first got on Broadway, and you guys are gonna, you know, totally understand this, like there was a, a commitment to dramatic work in music theater that pushed boundaries to a large degree for a period of time, I would say. And, you know, I could talk about Jason, Robert Brown, Adam Gettle, Michael John Lachiusa, that whole generation of writers that were coming from that classical music theater background and training and then pushing boundaries and in My opinion that has waned quite a bit on Broadway at least. And where I have discovered it more and more is in the world of modern opera. And I was drawn there. I was invited there to start, and then I was just drawn into it because the stories were deeply impactful and resonant, and it was a place to tell really complicated stories about really sensitive subject matter that in our genre, in, you know, our lane, let's say, of Broadway, I found more and more people apologizing for and pulling back from. And it was exploding in the opera world. And it's new, it's. It's in English, it's exciting. I'm very proud of the work that I've done there. I have done some of my favorite work in the opera world.

Peter Felicia (10:56)

Wow. Let me ask, when you were a kid, did you have any interest in opera?

Mark Kudish (11:01)

No. No, My father loved it. And I just was like, this is stupid. And, you know, but you know, guys, I didn't sing a note. When I got to New York City, I was dramatically trained. I didn't sing. I went to a university where there was a music department on one side of the hall, the theater department on the other, and neither the twain shall meet. And, you know, I mean, but my instructors at school. So here's a list. Josh Logan had him for a year. Wow. In his last, like, sort of year of clarity, Edward Albee had him for directing Love Dead. Love Edward, loved Edward, loved arguing with Edward, and Edward loves to argue. You know, I had Zoe Caldwell, who I love dearly. I had Hume Cronin and Jessica Tandy. They sort of tag teamed each other. So, like, this was my training ground, along with, you know, our professors and my mentor, whose name was J. Robert Dietz. They were all friends in the 50s and they came to our small little university in South Florida because the guys that ran it were really good friends of theirs. And that's how I was trained. And when I moved to New York, that's what my focus was on, dramatic theater and I fell into music theater.

Michael Portantier (12:35)

Mark, have you seen or heard any of the fairly recent new operas that have been done at the Met? And which of those, if any, did you especially respond to?

Mark Kudish (12:50)

Well Grounded by Jeanine Tesori. Now, I also helped in the early workshops of that. So I knew what the material was, I knew what the story was, and I found it to be such a thrilling story based on a one woman play that had run at the Public Theater. And I thought it was even more timely now than it was then because technology has caught up to the story that they were telling. And I think it's fantastic. I think it's riveting. I think I know that my friend Josh Schmidt, who I did A Minister's Wife at Lincoln center, which in itself was a chamber opera. I know he and my good friend Dick Scanlon are developing a new piece called Falling Water over there. I look very forward to that coming forward. Fire in my bones. I think these are exciting pieces of theater that are being introduced into a crowd that needs fresh energy now. This is not a new thing. Back in the day, when New York City was around, New York City Opera was around. Y' all remember that? Yeah, they were on the forefront of that. They were bringing like. Like Dead Man Walking. Okay, so there's another one, Dead Man Walking, which is a fantastic opera, which the Met did and they had a huge success with it, premiered at New York City Opera. I remember because I was working at the New York City Opera when it premiered. And it's a brilliant piece of theater. Jake Heggie is such an incredible writer. There's so much. Really, there are so many talented writers. There is such great new opera being written. People need to adjust their idea of what they think opera is. So do opera companies, to be honest with you. Look, opera was just the popular music of its day. That's all it is. That's all it was.

Michael Portantier (15:07)

On that note, on that note, to switch slightly, is Sweeney Todd a role that you ever might see yourself in?

Mark Kudish (15:18)

I think, look, Sweeney's the kind of role, it's come along once or twice, and I was always like, it's got to be right. Sweeney's one of those roles that I felt like to do it. It's got to be right. I don't want to just do a production of it. I don't have interest in doing something someone's already done to the point that I go, you did it. That's beautiful. No one's going to do it like that. Like, I like doing new work. I like process. I like practice. I like development. I like creating. That doesn't mean that I don't like pre existing material, but there just really has to be a reason to do it for me because. And this is truth, too. I don't know how much I love performing or how much I've ever loved it, really. Like, I'm not fueled by an audience applauding. I am fueled by the engagement and the conversation of it. So, like, as an example, one of my favorite things that I've ever done on a Stage was hand to God. And what I loved about it was you didn't know what to think when the play was over. You didn't know what to think moment to moment to moment to moment. But the joy of it was, you didn't know what to think moment to moment to moment. And because of that, the audience forgot themselves, and they allowed themselves to genuinely react and respond to what they were seeing. Like, when I was out there, half the audience would be laughing their asses off, and the other half would be shushing the half that were laughing their asses off. And I found that to be this amazing, like, communal conversation where everyone with their own ideas or points of view had space to feel them and express them, which I really feel like we're missing. Guys.

Peter Felicia (17:23)

Let me ask this. So here's a former Conrad Bertie, showing up at an opera rehearsal. Do people welcome you warmly, or are they skeptical of this Broadway performer going up a step?

Mark Kudish (17:39)

Well, when I first started doing it, I think people were just like, who's this guy? That's cool? And then. Right. And then they clearly could see that I had classical training, but the practice and the. The process of opera compared to music theater is quite different. And I've never been one. I've never been shy. You guys know that. And I'm like, let's tell the story. What's the story? What's the story? Yeah, yeah, yeah, I get it. I know what the notes are, but also what's the intention behind the notes, you know? And I found that when people would push initially, they would always sort of warm to it because they were being asked to think in a way that they didn't think before. Or I would. I would. I would be an example of not doing what the expectation was. I would purposefully make sounds that were not beautiful.

James Marino (18:50)

Depending on the moment.

Mark Kudish (18:52)

I would make very active choices that would go beyond the boundaries of I don't care what the critic is going to say about my tone, as much as I care about telling the story to the audience and getting them engaged, you know? So, I mean, now, obviously, there are certain characters doing little night music in the opera. I would not want to do little night music anywhere but in the opera because the piece itself is so musical and music is, in my opinion, the primary character of the night. And also, it's just so grand. And what Steve wrote was just so lush and beautiful. That doesn't mean there's not character. Those are great roles. But to sing Carl Magnus with 40 plus pieces behind you in the orchestra is really Exciting. And you're only going to get that in the opera world.

Michael Portantier (19:58)

Ah, you certainly didn't get it in the last Broadway production.

Peter Felicia (20:04)

That's right too. Yeah.

Mark Kudish (20:05)

And you know, look like again, it's those strings. It's the horns.

Michael Portantier (20:10)

Oh, God. God, yes.

Mark Kudish (20:12)

The piece is called A Little Night Music and it's meant to be an ocean of sound. And so we surf that. And I've loved doing it in those spaces.

James Marino (20:25)

Now, this podcast is sponsored by Squarespace. If you're listening to Broadway Radio, we know that you are a theater maker or a theater lover. And we are all storytellers now. Telling your story is easier than ever before using Squarespace. If you have a story you want to tell, start telling it with a Squarespace website. With Squarespace, you can be up and running in an afternoon without needing to know anything about technology or design. Squarespace helps you with all of that with Squarespace's collection of cutting edge design tools, which includes a complete library of professionally designed and award winning website templates. See your story come to life on a website in front of your eyes and you can stay in touch with your audience using Squarespace's email campaigns. Let people know what is new with your story or if you're a performer where you can be seen next. It has never been easier to launch a website. Check out squarespace.com broadway for a free trial. And when you're ready to launch, use offer code Broadway to save 10% off your first purchase of a website or domain. That's squarespace.com Broadway we'd like to thank Squarespace for sponsoring Broadway radio.

Mark Kudish (21:44)

And I've loved doing it in those spaces. Now also as an actor and as a performer, and this goes for opera and believe me, I had this conversation, I've been having these conversations last week. The music does its job. You don't have to do what the music's doing in that. That's like putting a hat on a hat. Like, for instance, there's a particular opera that I did called Anatomy Theater, and it's very dark, it's very grand. You know, Guignol, if you know what that is. It's very macabre, it's very dark and at times sinister, satirical, based on actual studies from the late 18th century. And it's about the hanging of a woman for the killing of her husband and two children, which she does. And then immediately following the hanging, which is an aria, by the way, we are going to dissect the warm body of this woman for a paying male audience. So that we can find where original sin resides in women. Now, it's dark, I'll say, and it's in many ways gruesome. But it's written by David Lang, who is the forefather of modern minimalism in music. It is one of the most lush, gorgeous scores you've ever heard, juxtaposed to some of the most gruesome, horrific events you've ever seen live. So the music does its job. It's romantic, it's lush, it's beautiful, it's light. And we work against the music. I particularly in that, worked against the music. So because I created that. And in the opera so often, we're used to working on pieces where the composers are dead and have been for a very long time. Everyone treats everything preciously, as though this is it. And those of us in music theater know that it's a collaboration. And when you've created something, there is an ebb and a flow, and there's agreements between all creatives happening simultaneously in the moment. And so to, you know, explain to the maestro, I know that that says this here, but this is what's going to happen here, and here's why. This is what this is. This is why, you know, it's not just the music. I know, I know it's slow tempo, but. But trust me. And then finally, you just pull out the recording to say, here's the recording. This is what we actually did. If you want to listen to it, and it's not to be disrespectful, it's to be respectful of the music of the moment. And opera's moving more and more in that direction. Opera's getting more and more practice at these original pieces in creation. But you also have to understand guys, like, they score an opera almost immediately. So, like, before you've even worked the thing, it's already scored, which I think is a huge mistake. Your first performance with orchestra in front of an audience very often is your opening night. I'm going to repeat that.

James Marino (25:08)

Okay.

Mark Kudish (25:09)

Your first performance, like our first preview in Music Theater is their opening night more often than not. And so, like, when you do a production and if you're fortunate and the production gets picked up to different opera companies, you know, like when we did Anatomy Theater, when we did New York, it was great. I said, what a great preview process. Even though that was the opening of the opera. And then we went to LA Opera, and then we got into it even more. This other piece that I did for this amazing composer, Emma o', Halloran, remember that name she's magnificent. I love her. She writes great modern stuff. I did this great piece called Two Men in a Hotel Room in Dublin, which, by the way, was nominated for a Grammy this year.

Peter Felicia (26:01)

Wow, I'm impressed.

Mark Kudish (26:03)

Was, as was also another opera called Adoration, which I premiered and am in, and was also nominated for a Grammy this year. So I've been nominated for my first Grammy, not for music theater, for opera, and in the opera category this year in the Grammys for new recordings. Three out of the five are all new works. Jeanine Tesori for Grounded because she's amazing. My friend Mary for Adoration and Emma for Trade and another piece called Mary Motorhead. And they played in tandem at night. All three amazing operas. And for the first time, literally, I think maybe in history, perhaps three brand new pieces of opera in the opera category. And that's a big move.

Michael Portantier (26:59)

Well, that is wonderful. Although, of course, part of it is from the other end of the spectrum. They're making far fewer recordings of the classics nowadays than they did back in the day. So, you know, I think on, you know, certainly on balance that's a really good thing because we, you know, I mean, I have myself, I have maybe like 15 recordings of Madame Butterfly. I don't think I need another one.

Mark Kudish (27:27)

No, but, but like, but they're done. That's my point. It's just sort of like this is where the future is. There's. There's things to talk about, there are things to write. And we're certainly in a space and an environment and in a society in this moment today, where a lot of people have a lot of feelings and they have a lot of things that they want to say and they want to talk about, which is where opera originally came from.

James Marino (27:51)

Right.

Mark Kudish (27:51)

Look, people forget. Look, most all music came out of the church. Most all music came from that place. A spiritual place. I don't want to call it religious, let's call it spiritual. But while that was going on in almost every culture outside of whatever that spiritual house was on the street, there was music happening out there to counter it. So, you know, out of the church came what was known as opera seria, serious opera. And it was very designed by and through what was the church music of its time. Right out on the street was opera buffa, which was comic opera, which, you know, came out of madrigals. And that is the opera that we know today. That is Mozart, that is Rossini, that is Verdi. And then the development of all that went along. But again, that was just street music. And Then that became opera. And so, like you said, Madame Butterfly, any of those other famous recordings that we know and love, they're fantastic. But we have to keep the form moving forward. And I mean, that includes music, theater, right? Like, you know, last year was an explosion of shows on Broadway, and this year we're still waiting. And I understand the fear, and that's really what it is, is that things are being fueled more and more by fear, less and less by, I want to say, courage and risk. And I understand why, because of the dollar. But then there needs to be a restructuring, guys. There needs to be a restructuring of how we do things. We need to take a sort of take a step back, reconsider what the structure is, what the costs are. You know, in my opinion, I think that the Tony Awards should extend its time. Long overdue off Broadway. Even if there was one Tony Award for Best Off Broadway play and Best Off Broadway Musical, I think it would blow open the opportunities for producers, for creatives, for everybody. Because really, the only reason everybody wants to go to Broadway is that that's it. And it's become more and more linear because of it. You know, now everyone's looking for a guarantee. Now it's just star, star, star. It's always been celebrities or stars being in the mix, but it used to be you'd create a show and then after the show got into its run, you'd replace with stars. You replace with that. And now it's all just totally leaning on, we need a big name. And you're looking at names that you literally go, have they ever stepped on a stage? You know, no, but what you're also thinking is, but we can sell out this limited run before it even opens. And that's the formula. And it's suffocating to the creativity of new work and discovering new voices. But in the modern opera world, it's booming. I'm not trying to be a downer here.

James Marino (31:19)

No.

Mark Kudish (31:20)

But I am saying that's why I was drawn. Look, I've always drawn to a story that has intention in it. Like I'm always, especially in the latter half of my career. It's why I love Tan to God. It's why I loved Girl from the North Country. It's. It's why I love God Bless Floyd Collins, finally helping it get to that place that is long deserved. It's why I loved Assassins so much. When we did it on Broadway, that was the right time for it. I wish more people would have actually been listening. Right.

James Marino (31:55)

Yeah.

Michael Portantier (31:56)

Well, to close maybe this Part of the discussion, as I'm sure you know, the new operas at the Met and, you know. And of course, the Met is not the be all and end all of opera. Right, let's make that point. But at the Met, a tremendous success was the Adventures of Cavalier and Clay.

Mark Kudish (32:15)

Oh, I haven't seen it yet.

Michael Portantier (32:16)

Oh, my gosh, You've got to see it.

Mark Kudish (32:18)

Yeah, I have to see it. I'm dying to see it. First of all, I love that story. I'm such a nerd. I love that story so much, I didn't get a chance to see it.

Michael Portantier (32:27)

Oh, well, yeah, you've got. I'm amazed you haven't, but you must. But anyway, that. That must have been so gratifying to everyone for a new opera to literally sell out. Yeah, that just is unheard of. Unheard of.

Mark Kudish (32:40)

But doesn't it also tell you that's what the audience wants?

Michael Portantier (32:49)

Yes, if it's the right combination of, I guess, story and composer and. And people and. Yeah, I mean, they.

Peter Felicia (32:56)

They.

Mark Kudish (32:58)

But audiences are hungry for new stories. They don't want revivals, like, all the time. They want new stories. Look, the only reason that we all go to the theater is that we want to see ourselves. We collectively go to the theater to sit communally so that we can see ourselves on that stage. And it gives us permission to forget ourselves for a moment and, like, explore those difficult issues together in a safe environment, hopefully, where you forget yourself so you can see yourself and you're being entertained. So in a world like right now, where we're pointing fingers at each other and we're talking at each other, that's when we get to be together and we get to experience those emotions together. And if it's a good piece, we get to do it how we choose to do it, you know, and that's why it sells out that way, you know, and people are hungry, they want that, and I think it's exciting as hell.

James Marino (34:09)

Can we consider that opera is the new Broadway?

Mark Kudish (34:15)

I wouldn't say that opera's the new Broadway. I would say that modern opera is a bridge between the two vernaculars. And that for anyone who is looking to explore beyond that linear rail that they've been on, and you're looking for something, you know, to excite you in a way that maybe you've not seen yet, I cannot stress where modern opera lies in terms of its importance and effectiveness. Like, I have friends that have seen me do modern opera that now go to the opera, that have subscriptions out at LA Opera.

Michael Portantier (35:02)

Oh, that is great, because they were.

Mark Kudish (35:04)

Like, I mean, you know, like one buddy of mine, celebrity buddy of mine, I'm not going to mention names, but, like, literally came and saw me do something at L. A Opera. And he was like, dude, you told me I was coming to see an opera. And I said, you saw, dude, that is not an opera. And I said, yes, it is, dude. He's like, that is not what I thought it was going to be. And I said, no. And now he goes to the opera. You know, he's like, I just saw a great production of, you know, what did he say? He was like, I saw a great production of Traviata, man. It was really good. And you just kind of go. But like, you know, in Europe, this is a given. You know, in Europe, there's the youngest generation are going to the opera because it's affordable, right? Because it's, it's, it's, it's funded and it's supported by the country. And like, you go to the opera and then you go to a jazz club after or you go to a comedy club after, like, it's, it's a no brainer. You know, it's just in, you know, in our structure, it is structured in such a way that we all know, like, look at the dollar signs for a ticket. It's really expensive to go and enjoy yourself at the theater. And it should be made far more accessible. And I think that we would find far more success in our risk taking. And through risk taking, we find our voices, and through our voices, we find all those new, exciting things that are going to be legend in 50 years from now.

James Marino (36:44)

Mark, tell us what's. So you've had this foray into opera. What else is going on in the world of Kudish these days?

Mark Kudish (36:56)

Well, I'll be honest with you.

Peter Felicia (37:00)

I'm.

Mark Kudish (37:02)

It's an interesting thing when you get to a certain age, right? Like, look, I've done more Broadway than I would have ever expected to do. It was never the intention that I had when I got into this industry. And I've created, like, I'm really, really proud. Like, now revivals are all coming to the stuff that I created. You know, they're all coming, and that's pretty great. Like, to be able to say that you were a part of the creation of stuff that's just sort of now in the pantheon is really pretty awesome. I'm very excited to see the Wild Party at Encores. Michael Johns.

Michael Portantier (37:42)

I figured that's what you were thinking of.

Mark Kudish (37:45)

Well, but, you know, it's the kind of thing I remember when we were doing it originally, and I said to George and Michael John, the revival of this is going to be incredible, because I just felt it was so ahead of its time in terms of storytelling. It's a jazz opera. My modern opera days really started with Michael John Lachiusa, who I love, who I've had my longest working relationship with. I've done more with him. I'm working on two new pieces with him right now. And I just. He's. I just, you know, what can I say? He's my friend and he's a collaborator, and he's my inspiration, and I just. He keeps pushing boundaries, and I love it.

Michael Portantier (38:25)

And with the Wild Party, we're so happy that you survived Mandy Patinkin.

Mark Kudish (38:30)

Look, let me tell you. Let me tell you something. Mandy's a force. Mandy is a force. And more than that, Mandy is a guy that has always been out there really hunting for answers. And at times, that was challenging. I will not. I absolutely will not deny that. But I will also say that he is one of the most creative, empathetic, passionate, forthright human beings I've ever met in this industry. And when he believes in something, he stands for it. And he's so eloquent in what he stands for. And he's got such a great sense of humor, and he's got such a massive heart. He is complicated in his process, but he is also so loving. And his joy of engaging with an audience and really having a conversation with them is something very unique. That was a big. That was a big, tough show in so many ways, because every person in that show could hold the stage on their own, and it was exciting. And the story itself was so out of its time, if you will. Like, I remember one of the reviews said that, you know, our Wild Party made Chicago look like the Sound of Music, you know, like, you know, and. But, like, you know, that's where I met Eartha Kitt, who became a friend and one of the. You know, I learned more watching Eartha and just, like, how she presented herself and engaged and just. I mean, man, I remember.

Michael Portantier (40:25)

I remember how much you loved her. You were just talking about her at the time.

Mark Kudish (40:29)

Yeah, she's amazing. And, like, she knew what it was to be an ensemble player. And, like, we're talking about Eartha Kitt, who was already a living legend, and she was the easiest person in the cast, by far. By far in a cast of big personalities. But, like, it's at a point now where I do genuinely look around and go, do I want to do that? Do I not want to do that? Like Sweeney, if it ain't right, I don't want to do it. If I don't have something to offer to it that someone else hasn't already done, I won't do it. So for me right now, more than performing, I've been writing a lot. So, like, I'm super happy to say my good pal Dick Scanlon and I have co written a play together about Mark Twain that we have been developing over the last year and a half. Two years. We've been giving a fellowship through the Mark Twain Institute. We were invited to Oxford, you know, a summer and a half ago to develop it. We were at Theater Aspen this past September presenting it, and we're continuing to move forward with it. And that very much excites me. I'm very proud of what we've written. It's not what you would expect at all. And that's the joy of it, is that you walk in with certain expectations and you leave with a whole lot of questions. And I'm developing a new musical right now with my friend Paul Iacono, which is, like, kind of ridiculous and crazy, but again, it has teeth and it goes to surprising places. And we're presenting it, you know, like. Well, we're not. We were going to present it, and then all kinds of things happened. And now we're doing a reading of it at the end of January. And again, I'm very proud of where we are with it. And, you know, I've. There are performance stuff, and like I said, I've got two different pieces with Michael John. There are other pieces that are also in development. But I guess I'm discovering more and more that it's time to do something else in this industry for me, you know? And that's what I mean. It's like. I guess that's why I've been drawn to modern opera, because that. I don't want to call it that dark side of me, but that side of me that wants to engage in a way that makes an audience.

Michael Portantier (43:08)

I.

Mark Kudish (43:08)

Don'T know, forget themselves for a minute. I'm finding it more in modern opera.

James Marino (43:15)

Is this when you, Paul Iacono, that you did the unauthorized Batman parody with?

Mark Kudish (43:24)

Yes.

Michael Portantier (43:28)

Yes.

James Marino (43:29)

Is that your. Yeah. What were you gonna say?

Mark Kudish (43:33)

Well, I'll. I mean, you know, here's the thing. Yeah, yeah. And look, we can talk about it. We got a cease and desist, of course.

James Marino (43:48)

No, absolutely.

Mark Kudish (43:50)

We got a cease and desist. So, like, literally A couple of days before, we were presenting it at Joe's Pub. Sold out. We got a cease and desist from Warner brothers and from D.C. and I engaged with the attorney and really, really nice guy, actually. And it was a really interesting conversation. And, you know, the bottom line ended up being that we. We canceled. Not because there was anything in our piece that wasn't under the umbrella of parody.

Michael Portantier (44:25)

Exactly. That's what I would think.

Peter Felicia (44:27)

Yeah.

Mark Kudish (44:27)

But more because, you know, these days, and this isn't a judgment, this is the observation. These days, you know, pretty much anyone can, you know, sue anyone for anything, whether or not there are actual. And, you know, you could go to court to prove it, but that's money, right? And we were at such an early development point in our process that it was like, is it worth it? Because Joe's Pub was like, hey, guys, we're behind you 100% of the way, and whatever direction you want to go with this. And even Joe's Pub was like, we've never quite gotten a cease and desist like this before. And we chose to cancel because it was like, you know, it's not worth the hassle of going through proving something before anyone's even read it, do you know? But what I found it to be was a great gift, and it has inspired us to our continued writing of where we are now, which I have to say is far and away way better than where we were. Not that where we were wasn't really good, but now we're in our own domain, we're in our own world, and we're able to do things in a much deeper way that you kind of just can't do with parody. I mean, parody can be great, but also there are those rules and there are those laws. And the minute that you start to go from parody to satire, and we've gotten to a place that is far more satirical and then ultimately far more from the heart, and it's become something not just fun and funny, but actually quite round, and it goes places. And it's kind of really nice to feel that freedom of things that now we're just expressing ourselves and we're not beholden to anything. So I'm very happy about that, actually. Both of us are. It's nice to be in this place of, like, a different kind of creativity. And it's nice to know why you do what you do beyond just feeling like you are defined through whether you're doing it or not. And that's experience, you know? Like, we all understand that when you've been at something for a really long time and you've had success at it as we all have. Invariably you're going to start to say okay, what next? You know, like why do I keep doing it? What keeps driving me to it? And I've been asking myself those questions for a really long time.

James Marino (47:25)

Well, Mark, I want to really thank you for joining us on Broadway Radio on a Sunday morning. I want to let you get back to your dogs.

Mark Kudish (47:33)

Yeah, dude, thank you.

James Marino (47:35)

I'm sure they are nipping at your heels saying hey dude, it's time to go out.

Mark Kudish (47:40)

Well dude, we just came back in so I'm hoping that they're chill right now.

James Marino (47:46)

Folks can find mark@markcoodish.net and we'll have links to everything in the show notes. Mark, thank you so much for joining us again on Broadway Radio.

Mark Kudish (47:55)

Oh, my pleasure guys. A joy to have some coffee with you this morning. Everyone deserves to be connected. That's why T Mobile and US Cellular are joining forces.

Peter Felicia (48:06)

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Peter Felicia (48:26)

Stop if you cancel any lines.

James Marino (48:27)

Qualifying credit required. All right, so we had a little bit of, of news come out in the last week concerning Broadway. And first of all, we did have a teaser as to updated casting for Death of a Salesman. But Michael, the, the, the newshound and that you are noticed that something was missing. Tell us what was missing.

Michael Portantier (49:01)

Well, I would say this is one of the most newsworthy new productions of the spring because of the, you know, if nothing else because of the presence of Nathan Lane and Laurie Metcalfe in the leads. You know, whether or not people think they're well cast or not, it's still newsworthy. So most of the cast had been announced but there was this past week a new press release announcing new cast members including Jonathan Cake in the role of Ben Loan woman. Which first of all, some people might wonder what kind of genetic pool would produce Jonathan Cake and Nathan Lane as brothers. But we can, we can, you know, speculate on that. And, but the, the most interesting thing to me is that several of the new cast members were listed without the roles listed next to them and I could not figure out why that was and I was guessing that maybe these new People were going to be understudies. So I wrote to the press agent and got no response. This was at least four days ago, so they had time to respond. So I thought, well, let me go look at IBDB and see if perhaps they have something there. And sure enough, this is really interesting because Christopher Abbott and Ben Allers had previously been announced in the roles of Biff and Happy. But according to ibdb, Joaquin Consuelos will be playing young Biff. And Jake Termine, or Termine, however he pronounces it, will be playing young Happy. And then also a fellow named Carl Green will be playing young Bernard. Now this is really interesting to me because as far as I know, the roles of Biff and Happy and Bernard and those flashback scenes have never been played by separate actors for the very good reason that there's not supposed to be that much time between the two time periods. And also the youngest that we see Biff and Happy and Bernard is when they're in high school. So they're pretty much full grown men, young men. They're not pre adolescents. And so every production of the past, as far as I know, has made the decision to have the actors playing older Biff, Happy and Bernard also play the younger roles with, you know, maybe just a little change in costuming and maybe hairstyle or whatever just to. To make them look a little different. So I was very, very sur by this casting for that reason. I have no idea why the press release just failed to mention the roles they're playing. If they wanted to keep it secret, they didn't do a very good job of it because you can just go to IBDB and see who they're playing. There had been talk that this production is going to incorporate some notes from early drafts of Death of a Salesman that Miller, Arthur Miller had made. I don't know if this has anything to do with that or if it's just an idea of maybe the director, Joe Mantello, but it will be interesting to see. And one of the most interesting things about it is that to me, one of the most devastating scenes in the play is the scene where Biff discovers in a flashback where he discovers his father, Willie, in a hotel room with a woman other than his mother. And he absolutely. That's supposed to be the moment where his world is completely shattered and he breaks down and nothing is ever the same after that. I will never forget how Andrew Garfield played that moment in that production on Broadway with, with Philip Seymour Hoffman as Ben. It was absolutely. It was completely devastating and why? You know, and so I'm wondering, is Christopher Abbott willingly giving up that scene to have it played by Joaquin Consuelos, who by the way, is the son of Mark Consuelos and Kelly Ripa? Or then I had some crazy idea, is Joe Mantello going to maybe do something weird where he's going to have both Biff and young Biff in the scene?

Peter Felicia (53:52)

Ah, sure, yeah.

Michael Portantier (53:53)

You know, I mean, I'm just speculating there. Either way it's interest. But I do think it's very odd for the simple reason that the roles have never been cast before with separate actors. For the simple reason that the age difference is not supposed to be that great. But it is intriguing and it might. You know, I'm sure some of us will be looking forward to see this production, just to see exactly what they do with that and whether or not we feel it works at all.

Peter Felicia (54:28)

Wow.

Michael Portantier (54:28)

Thoughts.

Peter Felicia (54:30)

Wow. Yeah, you know, I mean, there may be a disconnect because we may not really relate to those characters as much if indeed other people are taking over. So we'll have to wait and see. But it doesn't sound like that good an idea to me.

Michael Portantier (54:49)

Yeah, that's my reaction. We will try to keep an open mind.

Peter Felicia (54:53)

Yes, indeed. Yes, indeed.

Michael Portantier (54:54)

And at any rate, why they didn't, why they just sent out the press release only listing the names of the people but not the names of the roles for those three roles. Oh, and they also didn't list Jack Fallahy is says understudy for Biff and Happy. Now whether that means understudy for older Biff and Happy or younger Biff and Happy or all four, I do not know. But I could not understand the lack of specificity in the press release, especially when you just can go to IBDB and it's all there right in front of you.

James Marino (55:38)

I would think that it is less of a mistake than it is a thought that it's not important.

Mark Kudish (55:49)

Ah, no, I think it is important.

Michael Portantier (55:52)

Because it's never been done before. Okay, go on.

Peter Felicia (56:01)

I'll say that I don't think it's impossible. It's been done before from the vantage point of some community theaters doing it, wanting to get as many people in the cast as they possibly can. So I, I wouldn't be shocked if indeed it has been done before for that reason. But nevertheless, we'll see the reasoning here and how much they even resemble the older versions.

Michael Portantier (56:25)

Well, yeah, I have not seen every non professional community, needless to say, I'm talking about every major Production that I have. Tv, film, stage, you know. Sure. So we'll. Yeah, well, we'll see.

James Marino (56:41)

What movie was it that Kevin Klein was doing? A dinner theater production of it.

Michael Portantier (56:46)

Oh, Soap Dish.

Peter Felicia (56:48)

Yeah, right.

James Marino (56:50)

Which we've even seen.

Peter Felicia (56:51)

Developed into a musical by Drew and Stiles, but I haven't heard about it in a long, long time. Ron Cowan, who wrote a play in the 70s called Summer Some. What is it? I forget. I'm sorry. Summer something. It's a one word title at Lincoln center at the New House. So they were working on it, but I haven't heard anything for a long time. So that not. May not be happening. Yeah, probably not.

James Marino (57:17)

So, salesman coming to you with lots of buzz.

Mark Kudish (57:23)

Big, big.

James Marino (57:26)

Big names. We'll see how it goes. Ah, and also, you know, as big of a name as Death of a Salesman was, there was other big news that the. The longtime title holder for off Broadway, the Fantastics, is gonna make a hop to midtown. They don't say when, but this is not just an empty press release. This has got names behind it. And when one of the names is Daryl Roth, you know that this is not a vapor show, that this is very likely to happen. When they find the theater that they want directed by Christopher Catelli, the Fantastics, reimagined as a gay contemporary love story, is going to come to Broadway. Michael, you know, we, we have sort of tangentially talked about this before.

Michael Portantier (58:31)

Yes. Because I had originally planned to do the Fantastics in concert at 54 Below sometime in the year just ended 2025, because that was the 65th. Is that right?

Peter Felicia (58:47)

May 3rd, 1960.

Michael Portantier (58:49)

Yeah. So 65, right?

Peter Felicia (58:51)

6.

Michael Portantier (58:52)

Is that right? Yeah, yeah. My math is obviously not good. All right.

Peter Felicia (58:58)

Yeah.

Michael Portantier (58:58)

The 65th anniversary year of the show and. But we were denied doing the. The whole show in concert for this very reason. I was told that. That there were hopes of bringing the gender switched version to Broadway, which I had mentioned that I had seen. It's been done, I think, in three or four previous productions, one of which I saw in Provincetown at the Provincetown Theater just about three or four years ago. And I have to say, a lot of people have reacted to the news of this upcoming Broadway version with the genders switched. A lot of people have reacted negatively without, of course, seeing it. And I can understand their trepidation. It might sound gimmicky, but I, I would say it's the opposite of gimmicky. And when you think about the shows that Tom Jones and Harvey Schmidt wrote, they're the opposite of gimmicky and Tom Jones. This entire rewrite was the work of Tom Jones. So it's not like someone else took it on themselves to. To, you know, to revise the work because they felt, oh, you know, we have to make it new and we have to, you know, so it'll speaks to today and have a whole new audience. Tom Jones himself did it and I think he did a very wonderful job at it. I thought it came over beautifully with Matt and Louisa. Louisa is now called Louis.

Peter Felicia (60:39)

Yeah.

Michael Portantier (60:40)

Y. Matt and Lewis. And with two mothers instead of two fathers. EL Gallo is still a male character.

Peter Felicia (60:49)

I saw the production in Flint, Michigan that spurred all this. It was Michael Liberis who had the idea and got in touch with Tom Jones, who was initially reluctant because he said, I know it's not just me changing every she to he and her to him. You know, it's gonna be more than that. And so I went out to Flint, Michigan to see it and I thought it worked. Qu. Of course, I was very interested to hear what some of the new lyrics were. Please don't let me be normal Came to Please let me be something special. Lewis didn't go to town in a golden gown but with a golden crown. He didn't have hair long enough to unfasten till it billows to the floor but let my hair keep growing until it billows to the floor. And he wanted much more than this small town rather than keeping house. So Michael Liberis indeed is connected with. With this production and should be. I'm glad they haven't left him behind because as I say, he was the person who said what if? And eventually enticed Tom Jones, who was approaching his 94th birthday, to go back to work. So. So I'm with you, Michael. I didn't feel it was an abomination or a scandal of any kind. I thought it worked very well on its own terms. And you know, the other things come. My God, but it's such a small show. Yeah, but I don't think if you go to the haze of the booth that it's gonna be a problem. I mean, sure, it's a small show.

Michael Portantier (62:20)

And look at maybe happy ending indeed.

Peter Felicia (62:23)

You know, I mean, really, I don't see that at all. No, of course I don't want it at the Gershwin, which is occupied, needless to say, but you get my point. But it's not as if there isn't a Broadway theater that's intimate and indeed I can certainly see it. One of those smaller spaces.

Michael Portantier (62:44)

Well, I think it's great that you saw the one in Flint and I saw the one in Provincetown Theater. And more good news is that Christopher Gattelli will be directing and presumably choreographing this production. And I think we're all fans of his, so I think he's a great choice for that. And I would ask everyone to keep in mind that, that however they feel this turns out, it's not going to replace the original. You know, I mean, I think that that one is very well established.

Peter Felicia (63:19)

Yes.

Michael Portantier (63:20)

And will continue to be done. So. So in case you don't like this one, don't, don't get too upset about it.

Peter Felicia (63:27)

I will never forget the Monday paper on May 5, 1970. Remember, it opened May 3, 1960. May 4 was a Sunday and I didn't get the New York Times on that day, but I was very interested to see how they would say, wow, you know, We've been here 10 years in the ABC ads and to see second decade was really something, you know, and indeed there would be many more than second. So I still remember being in church on May 3, 1963, and saying, wow, the Fantastics has run three years. So I guess my mind wasn't on what the church was telling me that day, but. But I was just thinking about the Fantastics. That's me all over. All right.

James Marino (64:17)

All right, so that wraps it up for today. Before we get on to our brain teaser, our musical moment, I want to remind everybody that you can subscribe to these broadcasts by going to the front page of broadwayradio.com there's a subscribe link that way each and every time we have a new episode of this week on Broadway, it'll be automatically downloaded to Apple Podcast view. Of course, you don't have to listen to and listen to us in Apple podcast as many ways to get us. One way is Patreon P-A-T-R-E-O-N.com BroadwayRadio. You can get us early, get special bonus episodes as well as be able to support all of Broadway radio's shows. Contact information for Peter for Michael and Me can be found in the show notes@broadwayradio.com as well as links to some of the things we've talked about today. So, Peter, do we have an answer to last week's brain teaser?

Peter Felicia (65:05)

What Oscar winning film that had the exact same name as a musical that closed out of town, but it was not an adaptation of the film and had nothing to do with it, only the name was the same? Well, I'm Talking about the 2015 Oscar winning spotlight, which was also the name of the musical Spotlight, which closed in Washington in January of 1978. Juliet Green was first, followed by Tony Janicki, Sean Logan, J. Aubrey Jones, Stephen Sokoloff, and Brigadou. Okay, this week's question. Listen to the cast album Chicago, and one sequence might bring to mind something in the Miracle Worker. Now, please don't give me a metaphorical answer in the style that Tony Janicki loves to do. Who would say, oh, it's cell block Tango. Because Helen Keller's unfortunate life is akin to a prison. And the way she spins around the dining room table could be mistaken for dance moves. No, don't say anything like, well, Billy Flitt is a Mirac worker because he got his Roxy off. No, no, no, no, no. I'm looking for something far simpler. So anyway, and this will give you a good chance to listen to Chicago again, which is always a good way to spend time.

James Marino (66:18)

All right, if you have an answer for that, email us@triviaroadrayradio.com we'll let you know if you're on the right track. So, Michael, what do we have in this week's musical moments?

Michael Portantier (66:27)

Well, we have two selections by Mark Kudish. The opener is the very beginning of the very first song in Michael John Lachius, the Wild Party. Queenie Was a Blonde. And the first voice you hear is Mark Kudish. I thought that was so much fun to see him come out on stage and open that show. So enjoy that. And then the closer is. This is kind of special, I guess, because so few, few people saw it. But in 2018, the transport group did a concert of music from Promises Promises, as they've been doing in, you know, for several years now. They do a. Every year they do a fundraiser musical, as you know well, as a fundraiser for themselves. And the most recent one was hello Dolly at Carnegie Hall. The one before that was the wildly successful Follies at Carnegie Hall. But before those two Carnegie hall shows, they did them elsewhere. And this was in 2018 at Merkin Hall. And Mark, you know, as usually happens when the Transport Group does these shows, they don't have one person playing each role. They split the songs up among different singers. And in this case, Mark got to sing Wanting Things, which is a song that J.D. sheldrake has in Promises Promises. And I have always loved that song. So he marked it a beautiful job of it. And, and all of these Transport Group concerts have had full orchestra, so that made it very special. Also, I'm pretty sure this this audio is from a video clip that we're also including the link in the show notes. And I'm pretty sure it's a rehearsal because of the way that Mark is facing while he's singing the song on stage with the orchestra behind him. There is some applause at the end, but I think it was a rehearsal. I did get to see the actual concert and it was fantastic overall. And I think this was a great song for Mark and a great role for him if he ever wants to play Sheldrake in a full production of Promises Promises. So please enjoy the those two selections.

James Marino (68:59)

All right, so on behalf of Michael Portantier and Peter Felicia, this is James Marino saying thanks so much for listening to Broadway radios this week on Broadway. Bye Bye.

Michael Portantier (69:10)

Bye bye.

Mark Kudish (69:24)

Must I keep putting things? Eating things that just can't be? Mine are things that just can't be.

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