← Brutally Anna
Brutally Anna
Date them until you hate them and why love isn’t enough with matchmaker Aleeza Ben Shalmon, the star of Netflix’s Jewish Matchmaking
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Not available in all states. This episode is brought to you by Dutch Bros. Big smiles, rocking tunes and epic drinks. Dutch Bros. Is all about you. Choose from a variety of customizable handcrafted beverages like our Rebel energy drinks, coffees, teas and more. Download the Dutch Bros app for a free medium drink. Plus find your nearest shop, order ahead and start earning rewards offer valid for new app users only. Free medium drink Reward upon registration. 14 day expiration terms apply. See DutchBros.com welcome to Brutally Anna, a podcast about finding love, losing love and all the things we think about but don't talk about Enough. I'm your host Anna Kai, AKA maybe both across social media, here to remind you that life can be beautiful even when it's freaking brutal. I am so excited to introduce my guest today, relationship coach, matchmaker, author and star of the hit Netflix dating show Jewish Matchmaking, Aliza Ben Shalom. Throughout her career, Aliza has successfully helped marriage minded singles find their soulmates and is here today to give us all of her expert advice on how you can find clarity in your love life. Thank you so much for being here today Eliza. I am so excited to chat with you.
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B
Thank you so much for having me and I'm ready to like dig in whatever you want to know.
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A
Oh, we, we have all of the questions and you are a real professional. Unlike me. I just give unsolicited, unqualified dating advice on my Instagram. But like the girlies have questions and you have the answers. So for people who didn't watch your show, can you just give us a little bit of background as to how you grew up and how you realized that this was your calling?
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B
Yeah, so I grew up in Philadelphia. I heard you grew up in Philly.
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A
I am in Philly right now, hence the I'm trying to make a makeshift studio work. I'm in literally my mom's bedroom because my room is like too noisy because the landscapers are there right now. So I don't know when this is going to come out but we're filming this the day before Thanksgiving. So I'm currently in my parents house in the suburbs of Philly, which is also where you're from. Which is wild because when I was watching on the show I Was like, oh, my God. She's like, worlds away. She's in Israel. No, we're both Philly girls.
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B
No Philly girls. So I grew up in Philly. Grew up Jewish, secular, just enjoyed life. I also love to, like, talk to people. And, like, I remember talking to my girlfriends, like, oh, I think he likes you. Oh, maybe you like him. And, like, I was always playing matchmaker as a kid, and then as I grew up, like, I didn't think, like, oh, this is a profession, because there is no such thing as going to university and getting a degree in matchmaking or doing something with it. So it wasn't until I got married myself, and then I had a couple kids, and I was like, I want to do something. I wasn't working. I was home raising two young kids. And I was like, but I need some adult interaction. And not just like, I love babies. I love children. But I was like, I needed something more. And my girlfriend's like, oh, I'm like a matchmaker online. You can help people. And I was like, awesome. She's like, it's like a volunteer community thing. I was like, great. This is beautiful. And I started volunteer matchmaking back in 2007, and I fell in love with it.
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A
What does that even look like? Like, online matchmaking in 2007. What that look like?
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B
So in 2007, it's kind of like having a database on steroids that you could, you know, click to match somebody up. It'll give you what they call mutual matches. Like, both ways. It makes sense. One way matches, like, it's good for her, but it's not exactly what he's looking for. And it will literally tell you, like, with green and red lines, like, aligned, Aligned. Aligned. Nope. Not. Not aligned. Check this out. And it just kind of gave you insight into who may be aligned from everything that they told you. But it's still a piece of paper. Like, it's not paper, but you know what I mean? Like, it's on the computer. Like, click, click. You're matching up screens. You're not matching up people. So I used to get on the phone, like, I'm gonna go like this, right? Old school. Like, hold the phone.
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A
Way of saying of doing the phone. What is. There's Gen Z is like this. I know. It's wild. And the way they do the heart, I don't know what it is. Oh, you know the Gen Z heart. It's this. Yeah, we do this. I know.
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B
Come on.
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A
This is my.
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B
Come on. This is my generation.
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A
I know. This is the phone. This is the phone now. They're like, when I do that, when.
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B
I have audiences and I talk to people, because we have all ranges from young to old, and only half the room understands it. I'm like, good, I know what generation you grew up in.
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A
Except for the social media people. Then they understand everything. But, yes, it is hilarious. We all have. Okay, so you're gonna do the old school phone with the thumb and the.
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B
I felt I'm in the pinky. And I would get on the phone, I'd be like, hey, I'm Aliza. You know, I'm a matchmaker. And they're like, you're not my matchmaker. I'm like, no, but I might have a match for you. And they're like, good, just send it over. And I'm like, no, no, no, no, no. I'm sorry. I didn't say it was a good match. It's just an idea. But I don't know you. But if I know you, maybe it'll be a good match, because I know the person that I'm trying to work with, and if I get to know you, maybe I could really help you. And they're like, oh, like, you want to get to know me? And I was like, yeah. So we'd talk, I'd coach, we'd schmooze, we'd connect. And by the end of the call, they're like, I. You. When I have dating questions. And I was like, okay, sure. You know? And I started giving out free dating advice because I was working as a matchmaker and just supporting people, and I kind of naturally fell into a role of coaching people. And then when I launched and started my business informally in 2011, I started as a coach in 2012, and I developed, you know, the coaching aspect of matchmaking, which is really. There's three parts to matchmaking. One is the connector, the actual matchmaker that sticks two people together. One is the coach who walks the walk and talks the talk. Oh, you like them? You don't. You're up, you're down. I don't know. And one is the closer. Are you in or out? Is this your person or you moving on? Like, is this the one? Or are you done? And I fell in love with coaching and also closing. Soulmate Clarity is one of my favorite things in the entire world. Like, how do. But how do I know? Everybody asks that question, and I've googled it. Nobody has an answer, but I actually have an answer. And I have a whole system called Soulmate Clarity that literally can tell you if this is your person or not.
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A
That is wild. I wish we had enough time to go over it, because my sense is that it's gonna take a lot more than an hour to go over all of the soulmate clarity. Am I correct?
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B
We can do it another time. But it's just like. It's a formula, and it takes your thinking and your feelings and combines it with my relationship wisdom. And then it gives you a little p that says either strong potential, maybe potential, or I don't care if you love them, you'll never, ever, ever make it. This is a relationship that is doomed to fail. Sorry.
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A
That's amazing. And that's kind of the hard truth we all need sometimes. But I'm curious. Who was the first couple you ever successfully matched? Whether it was through the service? Do you remember?
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B
So way back before the service, I had a girlfriend from high school, and we, like, I came back from university one summer, and we hanging out, we went out to a local bar, and some guy that I had worked with at a restaurant, he was there too. And I was like, hey, you know, meet my friend. Meet so and so. And I just saw it in an instant. They clicked. And I was like, oh, my gosh, there's something going on here. I was like, I. I gotta go to the bathroom. And I left them alone at the table, and I call my mom from the bathroom. I'm like, I'm hiding out in the bathroom. Talk to me. And she's like, what? I was like, you gotta keep me busy. I gotta let them have their alone time. She's like, I don't know what you're doing, but, like, whatever. And it was a couple that ended up getting married.
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A
It was.
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B
It was like an accidental match, But I saw it as soon as they came together. I was like, oh, I got to get out of their way. There's something magical happening here.
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A
You just seem to have an intuition for this. Like, when you meet people, you're, you know, you're obviously good with people, but it's also. There's something about being good with people and then knowing if they match, which I've always thought is very, very difficult because I couldn't even match myself, to be honest, for so long. So what did that look like for you when started dating? And how did you meet your husband? And was something in you that clicked too, Just like when you saw your friends or how did that whole process look like?
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B
So you're spot on. For me, it is based on intuition, but I think it's head and heart. So for me, a lot of people are very strong in one area and significantly weaker in the other. So they're either strong thinkers or they're strong feelers. Right. And for me, I'm actually both. I'm a very strong thinker and a strong feeler, which is much more. It's not as commonplace like, really, again, we. Like, somebody really rises to the top in one area. And for me, I'm always doing a calculation, like, what am I looking for? What makes sense long term? What are my values? What are my goals? What kind of a human do I like? What kind of a personality do I like? What kind of things trigger me that I just don't want to deal with in somebody? And what are the ick things about them that I totally can't tolerate? And what are the ick things that are, like, not my favorite, but I could live with? So I'm always going through a little checklist in my head. And at the same time, when I meet somebody, I also have a strong intuition. And usually it's like, you know, no, but be nice. Be nice. Or like, oh, maybe. Oh, maybe. And when I met my husband, so I first met him at a retreat, and I was looking to be dating somebody else, and he was looking to be dating somebody else. But we were both from Philadelphia, so, like, the Philadelphia people there were like four or five of us. We, like, exchanged numbers and decided we were going to all, you know, go from this retreat in Orlando and go hang out in Philly. But it wasn't. I didn't meet him and be like, I knew it. He was the one. I just met him, and I was like, okay, cool, whatever. And then I went on dating the person I was dating. He dated the person he was dating. We both broke up. We met up in Philly with this whole group of people, and I was like, oh, I like him. Oh, oh, this is who this. There's something here. I don't know what this is, but this is something really good. And. And it was. I have an unusual timeline. I do not. I'm going to give you, like, a caveat. I don't recommend this to anybody, but we dated for three weeks, we got engaged, and four months later, we got married. And poo, poo, poo. 22 years later, married, five kids. So.
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A
So it can work. Like, being crazy can work, but only.
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B
If you're soulmate, clarity, crazy. Like, if you have your head and your heart and you know what you want and you know who you have and you align it all. And you're like, look at that. It adds up. And if you're a human that's committed to marri. Because even if it adds up, over time, you know, things happen, and we kind of, like, go in and out of connection, and we constantly have to bring ourselves back to center. It's like a plane flying from point A to point B. You know, if you don't realign, even a car driving a car, like, you're gonna swerve off the road, it's gonna lean to the left, it's gonna lean to the right. We constantly have to hold on and bring ourselves back to center. And center is the point of connection where people meet.
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A
What do you think it was about you and your husband that everybody was just so sure right away? I mean, do you think that's because of the shared cultural background, or did you talk about it explicitly? I mean, that's an insane timeline by any standards.
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B
It's. Yeah, it's not normal. I'm not gonna lie. It's just not normal. It wasn't normal for me either. And I wasn't looking or expecting that. And I'm not. How old were you? I was 25.
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A
That's very young, too.
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B
Yeah. And I would tell you, I would call myself thoughtfully impulsive, meaning my actions look really impulsive. If you hear this story, you're like, nuts. She's crazy. I'm never doing that. But I'm somebody who's very mindful. I'm very intuitive. So I'm constantly balancing the head, the heart. I'm doing a calculation. And I had been looking and dating, and I dated a lot, and I met a lot of different types of people. We do have a shared cultural background. We did have a shared vision of the future. Like, if I look ahead 2, 5, 10, 20, 50 years out, our visions totally aligned. We wanted the same kind of life lifestyle. We talked about where we wanted to live, where we wanted to move, how we wanted to build our life. Everything was aligned. And then all those little things that are, like, bothersome. I was like, yeah, but I could live with that. Like, I don't love it, but I could live with that. Oh, that may. Yeah, but I could live with that. So to have such a high alignment and then the things that bother you, not to trigger you to a degree where you can't handle it, and it's like spiking out on a chart where it's just like, you know, a bump in the road, like, that's not nice. That's not pretty. Didn't like that, but, like, we'll get through it, you know?
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A
Well, that's a very practical view of love and marriage. Because so often, you know, you hear the words compromise all the time. You don't really know what it means, but it's like, hey, what you're really saying, and what I really believe in, too, and I talk to my husband about this all the time, is that we have the same shared vision of what our future looks like, even if it's not conventional. And I think so. I'm 34 right now, and I'm in that stage where my girlfriends who got married young are either still happily married or they are in the process of getting divorced, unfortunately, because when they met younger, they did not know what their vision was. So they met somebody that could be great, but they want totally different things. And I think a huge component of that is. And nobody wants to talk about this, is money in a relationship is you look at money very differently when you're 24 versus 34, and especially when you're in college versus when you're now. Because I remember in college, I was like, I don't care who I date. It doesn't matter if he has aspirations or whatever. You know, even though I was always very driven, it was not so much of a concern because nobody had any money. And then you realize as you get older, you know, my husband and I have a shared goal of what we want our life to look like. And we're both very driven in our work, and, you know, we want a family, but we've delayed having a family because it's, you know, you only have so many hours in a day. And my. A few of my girlfriends, they have a vision of what they want their life to look like. And maybe their husband doesn't have the same vision. So how do couples bridge the gap? Or can they even bridge the gap if they have differing ideas of how much they value money? So to kind of distill this question into, like, an example, it's like, okay, let's say the woman really values money. She's a go getter. She's a corporate girly. She's a CEO, and she's trying to be, like, the best she can be, and she wants all of the nice things in life. And her husband's like, I just need a job that pays me a living wage that I can live off of so I can pursue my passion projects, my hobbies. I don't need to live in a mansion. All of that. Like, how do they bridge that. Because that happens.
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B
Yeah. So you asked both, how do they bridge that? And can you make that work? So if you're in a relationship already, yes, you can make it work. If you're, like. Meaning if you're already married and you're, like, still listening, and you're like, what? Whatever. If you're single, then the question is, how aligned do you need to be in order to make it work? I personally believe that similarities are much easier to deal with. As we navigate through marriage. There's so many challenges that come our way. The more similar we can make things, the easier it is on us. Everybody's like, o, opposites attract. It's amazing. They balance us out. I'm like, balance us out means you're gonna hate it in two months, in six months, in six years, you're gonna.
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Be like, oh, my gosh.
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B
They keep doing this. And you're like, but you used to love that. That was your favorite thing about them. But not anymore. So, like, back in the day, what you love, you might come to hate. And finances are probably one of the top three reasons that people get divorced. Mostly, I think it's because of either, A, a lack of shared financial goals or B, a lack of financial communication. I think that there's a lot of different types of intimacy. You know, we can have emotional intimacy and intellectual intimacy and financial intimacy. I think that being able to be vulnerable with our finances. Talk about it. Talk about shared goals. I grew up a saver. So you earned money. You put it in the bank account. You left it there, like, you want to go out and do something. Okay, earn a little more to go do that, but then save the rest of it. And you put it there and then got married. And it was like, well, you have to do things, and maybe you're gonna buy a house. And you had to, like, be a spender because you had to constantly spend. I'm like, no, no, we save. We don't spend anything. And my husband's like, but we have to buy dinner. You know, what do you want to do about dinner? And I was like, I don't know. I don't. We don't. It's okay. We'll be fine. And he's like, no, no, you have to spend. You know? So financially, we grew up experiencing money differently. And for me, it was like, no, we earned it. We saved it, and whatever. And I personally didn't have huge financial goals. I made a decision at a young age that I wanted to find a human being that I wanted to live with I wanted to get married, I wanted to have children and I wanted to build a beautiful life. And I would rather do that with less money than have more money, but without those things. If I had a choice between the two, I would choose that. Do I want to live comfortably? Yes. Do I have different financial goals now than I ever had before? Absolutely. And when I got married, I wasn't looking for somebody who was a high earner because I also didn't want somebody who was more dedicated to their job job than raising a family and being a part of a family because I highly, highly valued family. So much so that I was willing to give up financial comforts in order to have a human being at home that wanted to be involved with the family. And I didn't want an absentee dad. So how do we bridge these, these gaps and come together? I think first of all we have to have financial literacy. We should learn about not just how you think about finances because. Because your way isn't the only way and it's not the right way. It is just your way. That's the first thing. What are the other ways of living in the world with finances? Some people are low earners. Some people live in debt their entire lives. That's just how they live. And they don't care. I'm not like, I'm not going to make a judgment. It's another way of living. If it's not your way of living and you don't like it and that would drive you crazy, it probably would be really hard to marry somebody like that. So I would say similar to other areas like even personality and other values, if you are polar opposites, it's going to be really hard. But if somebody is a little bit on one extreme but you're in the middle, you could kind of meet somewhere between the middle and the extreme and come to an understanding. But I think when like the more opposite and the more different that you are, the more difficult it's going to be to build that communication, that bridge and really that financial comfort to feel like you're meeting your goals and everything that you want to do. Streaming now on Peacock. Paris Hilton and Nicole Richie are back. That's hot. Loves it. For a show stopping reunion that will prove putting on an opera is anything but simple.
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A
Salah Sa sa sa sa we're really good at this.
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B
One thing's for sure, they won't be upstaged. Good to have you back.
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A
Come on, we've got a show to do.
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B
Paris and Nicole, the encore. A three part reunion Special streaming now only on Peacock.
- [19:33]
A
That is such an important conversation to have not only with your partner, but with yourself in the beginning. And I think what's interesting about what you said is you knew from a very early age that family was the most important thing to you, that you were willing to give up whatever the creature comforts of life to have a little bit less so that you could have a man at home who was raising the family. And that's really astute of you, because I think if you didn't know that and you met a guy who was super driven in his work, but worked 100 hours a week and giving you all of the luxuries in life, and from the outside, everyone's like, well, Lisa, why aren't you happy? You know, it's like, well, because this isn't what I really value, right? So it's like. And I think there's. Everything comes at a cost, and that's what we don't. I do believe that you can have it all eventually. I don't think you can have it all at once at the same time. So, you know, you guys built your family first, and now you're clearly. I mean, you've got a very flourishing career. You're obviously very driven, and I'm sure you have different goals now than when you were 25. But it's about the fact that you started off on the same page, and you're still building together. And I think a lot of people are like, well, this is what I really want right now. And he doesn't have that, but he has this other thing that I guess I want maybe someday into the future, but I don't know if I care about it that much. And I always knew that for me, I was like, never. I wouldn't say I'm not a family person, but I'm very close with my parents. But I never wanted to be a mom straight out the gate. I wanted to develop a career first. I wanted to really have a solid financial footing, and my husband feels the same way. And that's why we've delayed starting a family. And we're so on the same page, where we live in the suburbs of Connecticut. Right now, we're the only couple in our neighborhood that doesn't have kids. And we live out there for my husband's job, you know, but we would have probably stayed in the city. We were just happy working, and that's what fulfills us. But it's all about what's important to you and really being honest with yourself about that versus what you think other people want. Because other people are gonna be like, well, you should start a family or you should focus in your career where everybody has all these other opinions. How do you navigate handling family opinions, friends opinions, when you're dating and you are very close with those around you that who do actually want the best for you, even if it's misguided, right?
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B
Misguided advice is my least favorite advice in the world. So if somebody is giving you misguided adv, think about it right now, who's that human? They talk to you and you're like, no, bad advice, bad advice. If they talk to the little boy, listen. Yeah, yeah, you just don't listen. It's just they talk. It should be like white noise, like you cannot hear what they are saying. I would say that there are certain family members and friends and community members, co workers that give really great advice. They're probably healthy, stable, level headed, even keeled, emotionally available human beings that when you talk, they listen. If you have somebody who's giving you advice and they talk twice as much as they listen to you, I wouldn't even bother listening because they don't know what you're saying. And the problem is that you don't know what you're saying. Right. When somebody opens up and gives you a space to share something and they ask you questions, well, what did you think and how did you think that went? And what are you feeling right now and what do you want for the future? They're asking all these questions and as they ask you, they're drawing you out and they're drawing out your wisdom. And then what they can do is listen to your wisdom and reflect back. Wow, it sounds like you're feeling really settled in this. And normally when I talk to you, three dates in, you're actually a mess in a basket case. But this time you actually sound calm and they're going, hmm, you're right, I do feel calm. Right. When somebody is actually just asking questions and then reflecting back, that's the right kind of mentor, that's the right kind of human being that you want in your life compared to somebody who just wants to tell you, oh, you always do this, oh, here we go again. And they make drama and it's always story. Those are the types of people that we really don't want to have in our lives. We want to have great humans who can hear us out. And the first person that you have to listen to is you. So I usually tell people after a date, don't even Talk to anybody else. Just talk to yourself. If you need to, like, process with somebody else, talk out loud to yourself. Listen to what you're saying. Ask yourselves. Like, make a list of questions. Did I have a good time? Do I think our values are aligned? Would I want to see them again? How am I feeling? On a scale of 1 to 10? Ask yourself these things and say it out loud. Don't just answer it anonymously in your head. Actually say the answer and listen to yourself. And then when you're done, then I want you to think about, how do I feel right now? Right? And then if you want to talk to somebody about it or the next morning, talk to them and get reflections. But when you have other people's opinions and you don't even know what your own opinion is yet, then it's like a big soup, and I don't know what. It's all mushed together, and, like, we can't get clarity. And I also trust people's own opinions a million times more than I trust anybody else's opinions. Like, people need to learn to trust themselves and listen to themselves and know themselves so that they can make the best decision. Because you're gonna live with your own decision. It's not gonna be your mother, father, sister, brother, co worker, who told you, well, you have to marry them. How could you not? And then you do it, and you're like, but I didn't want that. You wanted that for me. So we have to listen to ourselves first before we listen to anybody else.
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A
I think that's great advice, especially coming up on the holidays when we're gonna be surrounded by a lot of opinions. And I know a lot of the single bitties out there, they're like, I'm gonna go home and Grandpa's gonna ask me why I'm still single, and I'm gonna have to explain to him.
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B
You have to have a funny answer. Just a funny answer. Something, you know, why am I still single? I'm such a great catch. I'm just hard to catch. I don't know. Grandpa, what do you think? You know, you have to play with it. Holiday time. I call temporary insanity.
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A
So.
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B
So don't take it seriously and stop answering their questions. And when they ask you, how are you doing? And oh, how come you're still single? And you're like, oh, I'm doing great. How are you? How's work? How are the kids? How's life? How's the house? Like, literally, just they just. Because somebody. Okay, this is the. If you walk away with nothing else. This is it. Just because somebody asks you a question does not mean you have to answer it. You literally can hear the question, and you can ignore it if it's inappropriate, and you can just talk about something else. And if they ask it again, you can ignore it again. And if they go, why aren't you answering my question? And you can be like, I'm gonna go grab some pumpkin pie. Want some?
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A
That's actually great, because I think, especially as women, we feel like we have to give an answer, and we have to give an answer that they will want to hear. So often in my 20s, I was just telling people not what I felt, but I knew what they wanted to hear to validate their own way of living. And I think the best thing about my 30s is now I realize that the truth may not be pretty and they might not like me for it, but it frees me from having to feel like I'm living a fraudulent life. You have this very interesting phrase, date him until you hate him. Can you explain that? Because I kind of feel like this goes against my feelings on how you should date. But you are the expert, so clearly I am wrong here. So why. Why date him until you hate him? Because my personal opinion here, and then I'm. I'm curious to hear yours, is that if there's nothing really on the first date, if you have to wonder if you like them on the first date, I kind of feel like it's a no. But date him until you hate him would seem to indicate otherwise.
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B
Okay, so first of all, I'm gonna do a little plug, because my new book that's coming out, Matchmaker Find Me a Love, that last first chapter is all about date em until you hate him. It was also the first episode on Jewish matchmaking, and it's really fabulous because. Because this phrase is actually not for people like you. There's 15% of the people in the world like you. Okay. And 85% that are not. So this advice is actually for everybody else. Date them till you hate them. Is for people that have a hard time making a decision or that feel neutral, because neutral can either go into drive or reverse, right? So we either go into, like, picking up speed, or we're just going nowhere with it. This, and most people, you really won't know until you give it more of a shot. You are probably more of, like, the intuitive. I know. Probably I don't know you, but, like, you're probably very picky, very fussy, very particular. You knew what you want. You knew how you were going to get it, you knew it was going to make happen. It was either going to happen that way or you were not going to be with them.
- [28:07]
A
That's it. You don't know is yes to all those things. However, I generally tended to love everyone in my 20s. That was the problem is, like, it wasn't like, oh, do I like them? It was like, I just. And I had that like 10 times. So much to the point where when I actually met my husband, people were like, oh, was it love at first sight? I was like, no, I was jaded as all hell. And I said to myself, this was an amazing date. I had a great time with him, but who knows? I've had this feeling 10,000 times before. Oh, so you. Okay, actually, 85%. What?
- [28:42]
B
Yeah. So there's. Okay, so let me see if I have my little notebook here. Hold on, wait, I'm gonna show you something. Hold on. I gotta, like, print this out. This is just a hand sketch, but I'm gonna. I'm going to describe it for anybody listening. It's a bell curve where on the right side we have what I would call idaters that are 15%. I thought you were this kind of dater, but you're not there on the other side is 15% of daters that are you daters. And then in the middle, this bell curve is 8. Is 75. 70. Sorry, 70% of daters, which are what I call we daters. Okay, I. Daters are what I described. Decisive. They know what they want. Like, that's it. You daters are what you described. Like, you just love everybody. You can get along with people. You see the vision. You're like, oh, this is a great human. Like, you could be my human. This is wonderful. And like, the. We daters are the ones that are like, I don't know. What do you think? You know, those girlfriends, like, you go out like, what do you think? They're like, I don't know. And you're like, well, do you want to see them again? They're like, I don't know. You're like, do you feel anything? I don't know. You're like, well, what do you know? Like, I don't know. You know those people. So that's the majority of the world. That's 70% of people. And those people. For those people, date them till you hate them is great. For your kind of daters also, date them till you hate them is great. Like, you don't hate them, so keep dating them. It's Basically, either you're my person or you're a good person, but you're not for me. Like, you're a good person, but you're not the best person for me. Right. You've got to be the right person and the right person for me. Not just that you're a good human. Like, I'm so happy that you're a good human. But if you make me a better human and I make you a better human. Now we're talking. Now we got something to work on. So the challenge is that a lot, again, people go out and, like, I don't know. I don't know. Well, if you're in the middle, if it's not a no, it's a yes for another date. When it's a no, it's very clear. I don't want to look at your face and wake up to that every morning. It's not going to happen. And I can't listen to your voice again because that's just not going to happen. And the way you, like, like, click your teeth or give me that little smile and wink and nod, like, no, I don't. I can't.
- [30:41]
A
I can't.
- [30:41]
B
It irritates me to the core. I cannot live with you. It's not going to work. Right? So we have to know. And if the only way to know is to dating them. And, like, to me, people are like, I don't want to lead anybody on. Okay? But if they're your soulmate, you want to dump them after a date, that would be a really bad move. Then you have to go back and date them, which is what I call mystery in your history. Go back, like, five years later, date them again, only to marry them. And I'm like, you could have figured that out sooner. Like, let's just not ruin your life. Let's go out on a few more dates. Date them. So you hate them. If you. Not that you hate. I never. I mean, like, really, I never, ever, ever want anybody to hate us. Anybody.
- [31:15]
A
Right. But date them until you're absolutely sure. So you believe then that you can break up with somebody and then not be together for a couple years and go back? And it actually was meant to be.
- [31:26]
B
35% of people, I believe do that. It's my Aliza statistic from all the people I've worked with. 35. If you give me 100 out of 100, 35 of those people will marry somebody that they either knew previously. Like, it could even be a friend's brother or have dated previously or, like, weren't interested in and said no to previously, they will marry somebody that that's already in their own little black book.
- [31:48]
A
Okay, so here's the fine line, though. How do you differentiate? Because so many women do this. They're like, should I go back to my ex? And a lot of the time the answer is no. Because the ex and you had a toxic relationship and it wasn't meant to be, and you're just romanticizing it because it's easier to live in the past than to move on. How do you differentiate between the guy you should go back to and the guy you really should not go back to?
- [32:09]
B
Never go back to a toxic relationship ever. Never, never, never, never, never ever changed.
- [32:15]
A
Right.
- [32:18]
B
Right. So the likelihood that he's changed and you changed and you've both changed for the good, because people can change for the bad also. And for the greatest good, where you actually bring out the greatest good in each other and a beautiful life, the likelihood of that is like 0.01%, maybe less. Like, it's not. It's just a toxic relationship is toxic. I have broken up toxic couples. And they're like, but I love them. And I was like, but love doesn't matter. You can love them. You cannot live with them. They cannot live with you. You will not make it in the world, and you'll both be miserable. Like, I'm just doing you a favor so you could go find a human being that you actually care for, that cares for you, that makes life a little bit easier. You're gonna have challenges, but, like, the daily grind of who you are and what you're doing, you're just like, that's my person. Like, if I. If I, five years after being married, 10, 20, if I walk into a room with a whole bunch of couples, amazing, good looking, wealthy, whatever, I still look around the room and go, yeah, but that's my person. I don't want anybody else. Like, I got what I got. Who knows what schmutz they have? Who knows what skeletons is in their closet? I got what I got. I'm really happy. So we should be able to say that. I mean, on a good day, not on a bad day. On a bad day, it's like, I love you, but today I don't like you at all. So don't talk to me. It's okay. I'll talk to you another day. Not today.
- [33:38]
A
Right? No, that's fair. So it's more like, okay, if you broke up for circumstantial reasons, maybe jobs or you were too Young or whatever. And then you go back, that's fine. But if it ended in a catastrophic fire, maybe don't go back to that person. So it's a very case by case basis. Okay, so if you have a client that has completely unrealistic expectations of what they want in a partner, how do you navigate that conversation? And I'm not talking about baseline stuff, because some women are like, my realistic. My unrealistic expectations are I want him to be kind and have a good job. And what I'm like, that's just like, bottom of the barrel stuff. I'm saying, like, okay, let's say the guy who wants, you know, the supermodel who's also got, like 8 degrees and just all these things that you're like, this is not realistic. How do you tactfully handle that as a matchmaker?
- [34:28]
B
I like to ask questions. So I'd be like, oh, well, how often do you date women like that? And then they'll say, like, oh, well, I've dated a few. And how many of those women you liked them? And how many of them also liked you back? You know, know. Oh, well, a few. And how many did you break up and how many broke up with you? You know, like, just curious, just seeking a little information. That's interesting. And how many more people have you seen like that in the world in the last three years and in the last six months, how many people? Well, if I'd seen them, I'd be married to them. Oh, okay, okay. So how many people do you know? Like, well, I don't know many. That's why I'm coming to you. I want you to find them. And I was like, right, okay, good. Like, horses, I can find unicorns, they just don't exist. So, like, I just want to know the difference. Like, if you're looking for a horse, like a white horse, or you want, like a unicorn, Because I. I mean, I could put a little, you know, hat on, but, like, it's just not the same. So I like to have a. I'm a little bit playful. I'm being a little more playful with you than I would be with somebody else. But I like to ask a lot of questions of. And I like to see what they've had in their life. Now, if they tell me, oh, my gosh, I meet those kinds of people all the time. And I'm like, oh, great. Well, why didn't you pick any of them? Why aren't you married to any of them? Well, it didn't work out. Well, how Many people have you met like that? So most people, when they've met, like, amazing, their, you know, ideal unicorn that they're looking for, Most people will tell me they haven't seen or met more than 3 or 5ish, maybe 6, something like that in their entire lifetime. 20s, 30s, 40s, 50s, even 60s. They've only met that quantity in their lifetime. I said, good, so how many more of those do you think are in the world? Right? Out of the billions of people that we have here, you've only met six in your whole lifetime. Are any of them still single? Because I think maybe we should do mystery in your history and look a little bit backwards before we look forwards or if we're looking forwards, I want you to realize that if you've only met six out of how many people are on this earth, think about how few there are. And the next time that you see something even remotely close to that, I think that we should say yes to a date and another date and a third date and a fifth date, and we should really dig in because it doesn't seem to be that what you're looking for exists so much in this world.
- [36:49]
A
That's so interesting, and that's very kind, because sometimes I hear people, people's checklists, and I'm just like, I want to smack you. And this is why I could never do what you do, because people are like, oh, would you ever be a coach? Which I'm like, no, because I'm just way too emotional. I'm way too partial, you know? But this is why you go to Aliza if you need professional advice and you come to me for entertainment. Okay, Very interesting definition of soulmates. I was gonna ask you if you believed in soulmates, but then I found something you said on another interview, and I want you to repeat what you said said, because your definition of soulmates gives us all a little more. Bit more agency over that word as opposed to, like, oh, like God or whatever deity you believe in preordained you with this one other person. So can you give us your definition of soulmates?
- [37:33]
B
Okay, so the ELISA definition, which is probably in alignment with my, you know, faith and beliefs, is that we are a body and soul. There's two. There's two parts to us, right? One is this physical body that you see in this world, and the other part as the spiritual side of us, which is our soul, which you can't see, but you could experience only through the body. And in order for the soul to live in this world, you've got to come into this body, and when we're talking about soulmates, you have to have a soul. Right. You have to have the two souls mate, a life partner. You have to have the soul and the body that align. So I do believe that there is divine order in the world and divine wisdom in the world, and that there is a person that is. Is uniquely for you and very good for you. And the thing about soulmates by me is you can have only one soulmate at a time, but how many will you have in a lifetime? How many times do you want to get married? Because the way that we make a soulmate is we get married and we say, I pick you. There's nobody else in the world that I want. This is not like poly anything. This is like you. You are my human. Great. You are my soulmate. You're not just my human. You are my soulmate, and I pick you. We're going to stick together. But if somebody dies or if there's a divorce or that relationship tears apart, not just separation. I am talking about death or divorce. Then you're a free soul. You get to go out back into the world and choose another mate that will become your soulmate when you marry them. And are they more, they, less, once you marry them, that's it. It's your soulmate. There's no more, less, higher, lower, better, worse. It's. It's just different. I love the word different. It is just different. You can have this kind of soulmate. You can have that kind of soulmate. You get married, you do blind dating, and you just never do anything. And you do an arranged marriage, poof. You have a soulmate. You didn't even meet them.
- [39:26]
A
Yep.
- [39:26]
B
But if you choose to marry them, they become your soulmate in that moment. So that's my, like, Aliza thing. But how many can you have in a lifetime? You know, like, how many times you want to get married? Two, three, five? The most I've heard is about. About, you know, eight or nine. For the, you know, regular humans in the world who have, you know, lost people or, you know, consistently gotten in or out of relationships. I once heard of something where his parents gave him an incentive that if he got married, they'd give him a large sum of money. So he just kept getting married and divorced for, like, 12 times in order, and he split the money with the women. I was, you know, bad parenting.
- [39:59]
A
That is just about the worst parenting I've ever heard. I've. I've heard of multiple divorces, like, three times. I've never heard of 12, but hey, it exists. So that person has 12 soulmates. The more the merrier, I guess, right?
- [40:11]
B
No, I think it's. Listen, listen, I'm married. We're married 22 years. And I think that having a soulmate is wonderful. And it's one of the greatest gifts in the world, and it's one of the greatest challenges. The only way to have the greatest gift is you, is if you also have the greatest challenge. And it's a tremendous blessing. But, like, God forbid, if there's a divorce, like, I don't want to have two of them. I got to deal with one and the other now. Like, that's okay. I'll just take one. Just give me one. I'm. Go ahead.
- [40:39]
A
Just one. So what, what brings people to divorce for you? And you know, at what point is divorce the right decision? Because there's two schools of thought. It's like, you. Everybody can work it out. Like, you can work it out, right? If you're trying hard enough. I feel like that's a very old school kind of definition. I'm from a Chinese American background. That's kind of like what Chinese people thought it was. Like, they just did not believe in divorce, even if it meant living in misery forever. And nowadays, you know, our generation, it's very, you know, divorce. Happy is probably a little bit too strong of a word, but now there's. It's like, oh, you could just get divorced, right? So for you and your experience and the couples you've worked with, at what point is really divorce?
- [41:21]
B
The option to make 231. That's the average number of apps used by many companies. This leads to a lot of context and tab switching that drains employee focus and costs your company. Grammarly can help. Grammarly's AI works in over 500,000 apps and websites, making it easy for your team to write clearly and on brand without disrupting workflow. Join 70,000 teams who save an average of $5,000 per employee per year using Grammarly. Go to Grammarly.com enterprise to learn more. So you and I are similar in terms of background, because from our Jewish background, we have the same beliefs. Like, you get married like, this is it, you're in it. And that's kind of our old world old school belief. But the truth is, I really believe in marriage as long as it can be something where couples can function and hopefully to a high degree. I think that when there are cases like abuse and addiction and things that are really not able to overcome, those are times when People need to get out. I also think that there's times where couples totally get give up and they're like, I'm done, I'm done with you, I'm done. And they're not just done with you, they're done with themselves. Like, I'm done dealing with anything and I'm not willing to work. And when somebody's not willing to work, it's not their soulmate that they don't belong with nobody, they just belong with nobody if they don't want to work. Like, I would rather if a couple needs to get divorced that they do say, look, I'm going to work on me and do my thing, you know, whether you work on you or not, I'm going to do my best on my side. If it's, it doesn't work and it comes to divorce for these reasons that we absolutely cannot make it work, then I'm still going to leave the relationship, a functional human being and somebody who can pick myself up and then try again. And also sometimes modern day, I don't know, maybe it's the same as it used to be, but there's a lot of different things going on. And modern day, I think people have a lot more baggage and a lot of different kinds of baggage that people just don't know how to handle. So if you see people that date the same kinds of people over and over again and you're like, but why do you always go for somebody like that? Like, it's not healthy or it's not good, but if they had it in their upbringing, they're used to it, so they know how to navigate it even though it might be a challenging relationship. Whereas if you pick a different kind of a partner, you might not be able to navigate it because you've never actually dealt with it. So when, when is it, you know, in extreme cases, when there's very difficult situations, I would say, you know, we have to deal with it in terms of financial things, I do think modern day we do have way too many pressures on finances and way too many expectations and way too many things that are just really irrelevant. And I think it gets in the way of healthy relationships, but it is an issue. But I'm just gonna say this one reason that people don't get divorced. Like you don't get married and wake up one day and go like, oh, they look so ugly, I'm just gonna divorce them, right? So like when you marry based on love looks, you know, you're not like, you have to marry based on values and the reason that many divorces happen is because the values either were never aligned from the beginning or as they grew, they didn't grow together, and they didn't keep bringing themselves back to center. You're not always staying on course. You're again, you're going in and out and weaving together and apart. But they didn't pull themselves together enough along the road, and eventually they just split and went their own direction.
- [44:45]
A
That's very interesting. So I'm gonna ask you this specifically, because you are the Jewish matchmaker. So fun fact about me, when I was in college, I went to nyu, and the predominant, like, student body makeup at NYU was Asian women, Jewish men, and Indian men and women. So I had a Jewish boyfriend my senior year of college that I was madly in love with. I don't know the type of. Of Jew he was, like, whether. But I know he was trying to figure out how. I guess Orthodox he wanted to be at the time when he was dating me. And that was a huge point of contention in our relationship was he was discovering, you know, he was coming into his religion more and more. And I. When we were dating, he never wanted to tell his parents we were together. So he would bring me to his house. House and just tell them that I'm a really good friend and they really liked me. And he was like, oh, my dad said to me in the car the other day, you know, Anna would be perfect for you if only she was Jewish. And I said to him, I said, I will convert for you. And I was dead serious. I would have done whatever it took to convert for him because I was not raised with religion. And if that was important to him, I was willing to do that. And I still stand by. So, you know, it was my dream to be a Jewish man's wife in Congress. And he eventually, I think, realized. He didn't tell me this at the time. He eventually realized he wanted a woman who was born into the Jewish faith, which I think is totally fair. Like, when I tell this story to people, they're like, oh, well, how could he? I'm like, we were 21 years old. Like, that is the time you kind of use to explore. But I guess for people who are in his position, who are maybe not 21, who are older, who are trying to figure out, like, how important should it be to me to find somebody of my shared cultural background, whether that's Judaism or not. But let's just talk about Judaism because that's what you have the most experience with. Like, how do you navigate that? Conversation with yourself without making somebody else, like 21 year old me collateral damage in the process.
- [46:52]
B
Yeah, I so appreciate this question. And faith based people really dig into this a lot. Christians and Hindus and Muslims and Jews and Chinese, like all different backgrounds. People are looking into how much does my culture, how much do my family values and my cultural background really mean to me. So in terms of Judaism, when we deal with it, your answer was almost correct, right? Like, oh, I'd be open to converting. That's good. Jews, we don't go out and seek to proselytize and bring people into Judaism. But if you chase down and say, like, I want to do this, I need to do this, right, so then you can be brought in. But you said, I'll do this for you and it was the wrong you. So in Judaism, we believe if you're going to convert, you're doing it for God. You're doing it because you believe in the faith and in everything that we believe in, which is God and the Torah and all the wisdom that comes with it, by the way.
- [47:51]
A
I had no idea about that. I was just trying not to get dumbed. Let's be real here. I was like, I will do whatever the hell.
- [47:57]
B
She's like, I'll do anything for you. I'll do anything. I can burn. And some people are okay with that. And they would say, like, sure, no big deal. Sure you can convert, you know, that's enough for me. But truly at the root of it, if you're doing it for them, when you no longer like them or you no longer have a good day with them, you're not doing it because the only reason you're doing it is for them. When you're doing it for you and your relationship with Judaism, with God or with Christianity or with whatever your background is, when you're doing it because of that reason, then you have a belief. Belief. And now your beliefs are aligned and we need your beliefs to be aligned. Not that I love you and my love is aligned with you and therefore I'll love what you love, that's not a lot. Enough. The beliefs have to be in alignment. So you were close. Like you were very close to. No, but it's not, it's not wrong. Like if, if there really is a beautiful relationship and one side says, well, my religion and where I came from, I don't connect to it. Wow, let me explore this religion that you're so passionate about. And let me. There's a show that just came out that nobody wants this. Did you hear about this on.
- [49:01]
A
Yes, I did. I haven't watched it, but yes.
- [49:03]
B
Okay, so I won't give spoilers, but there's, you know, a rabbi who starts to date somebody who's not Jewish and she's like, okay, he's like, you'll convert for me kind of a thing. And she was like, maybe, you know, like, she would be into it or whatever, but it's not for me. It's gotta be for God and for the beliefs that you have. And therefore, because your beliefs are aligned now, you'd be appropriately matched. And I think that again, similarities, like attracts like. And the more that you have in common, the easier it is to raise children. But also for children, they need an identity. They need, like, who am I? What am I? Where do I belong in this world? And when they know, oh, this is who we are and this is where we come from, then they have an identity. Then they can discover and explore the world if they want to choose something different. You can always choose something different. But it's really grounding safe and comforting for children to know who they are, to know where they come from, and to know what that means. So I like when those backgrounds and culturally and religiously people align as much as possible. I find it to be very healthy for the families.
- [50:04]
A
And I agree, as somebody who is, by the way, in an interracial cross cultural marriage, that is very healthy. And I'm madly in love with my husband. We talk about this all the time in the sense that it would have been easier in the beginning if we were from the same shared background. And I think for me, and you know where I grew up, because it's where you grew up. I grew up in a very homogenous area. There were not many Chinese immigrants around me. And so I grew up thinking I'm American like everybody else. And then you go to college and I went to nyu, which had such a diverse student body. And I was like, oh, I'm actually a lot more Chinese than I thought. And I just. The older I got, the more Chinese I became. And honestly, now it's funny, even though I'm married to a white Irish Catholic man from Boston, I have become more Chinese even in my thinking and the way I just act. Because he allows that in our relationship. And he culturally is, oddly enough, very Chinese too, even though he didn't grow up in that background. And my parents say this, they're like, it's so bizarre. Dave is more Chinese than some Chinese people. We know in a lot of things how he handles money you know, he's a saver, like you were. You know, we save. That's not a very American thing, because America's built on debt culture and everything. And so there's just so many aspects of his personality that after I met him, I was like, this is why it didn't work out with all the other American, maybe guys from Boston that looked on paper to be the same, but culturally, we're very different. And I always just think, like, oh, it probably would have been easier to have ended up with a Chinese American guy, because I did date them when I was younger. And the cultural differences, there's just a tacit understanding that I think people don't quite realize, because as much as I do believe that you can make interracial, interfaith, intercultural relationships work, it's like not having to explain yourself, maybe not even so much to your partner, but to your partner's family and friends is just something that you don't really understand until you don't have to do it, especially if you are the minority. So I think that's kind of what I discovered. But, you know, obviously, we've made a really great relationship, and I'm all for it. It's just I was like, oh, this probably would have been easier for you to understand my family and for me to understand yours if we came from the same background. But, you know, people should figure that out. And look, at the end of the day, what I believe is we're all collateral damage and each other's stories. So unfortunately, like, that was the journey that my college ex had to go through, and I was collateral damage. And it's fine, you know, we were 21. I think I would have a lot less sympathy for something like that if he was 34 at this age. But it's like in college, like, you get a pass, right? And it's like, honestly, I should not. I had no business converting to Judaism. That's the thing. It's like, I should have never done that because I knew nothing about the role religion. I was literally just trying not to get my ass dumped. So there we go. So speaking of, like, compromise and just doing things for the other person, what is the difference to you between compromising and completely conceding in a relationship? Because I get a lot of dms from women who are like, you know, X, Y, Z. He's great on paper. This. This is why he makes me feel great. But there's this one aspect of him that, you know, he needs, like, once a week to go out with the Boys or like, you know, play poker or whatever. Like, I feel like I should just learn to compromise. Like, am I not being generous enough? You know, how do you bridge the gap between compromising and conceding?
- [53:43]
B
I think that compromising is a place where we're meeting sort of somewhere in between where like, I don't like this. You don't, or you don't like this? Or like this time is for you.
- [53:52]
A
This time.
- [53:52]
B
Time is for me. And conceiting is almost like, I just don't feel like dealing with this anymore. So like, whatever, do your thing. Right? It's almost like you, you give into it, but like you write it off. You, you distance yourself in the relationship. And I think that compromises actually knitting the relationship closer together. Like, who are you? What do you need? Oh, you need your guys night out. You should go, you know what? And then like in, you know, two weeks, oh, I need, I gotta go do my girl thing. I'm going on a girls retreat. I'll be back in a couple days. Like, I need to refresh, I need to recharge. Here's what I need for me. I think that there's ways where we can learn to love our partner, understand our partner, appreciate them and go. That would be good for you. So you should probably do that. Even though it's not what I want, like, I'd rather spend time with you, but you need that. So if I, if you can give that to yourself and I can give you that time and space, you're probably also going to come back to the relationship in a more healthy way. So I think that there's this beautiful knitting of a relationship together through compromise, through navigating and negotiating the yeses and the no's and what people need and the me and the we. Right? Like, there's me and there's you and then there's us, the we between us, like right in between. Like, how do we hold sacred space for us and honor? Yeah. We're also like, we might be one soul, but we're two bodies in this world. And sometimes I just don't want to be with you. I need to do my own thing. And I think that there's a way to do that. And compromise is the healthy balance. Conceding, I think is like without, you're not doing the work, you're not doing the work of building that bridge and that relationship. And eventually it turns out pretty bad for a couple.
- [55:28]
A
So that's very inspirational and also very practical. My last question is, do you think there's somebody out there for everybody. Because there's a lot of people out there that are like, I'm never gonna find anybody. Maybe I'm just destined to be single. Single. But they desperately want to find somebody. So do you think there is a match for everybody?
- [55:46]
B
Yes. And I think that there's even possibly more than one match, only one at a time. But for sure, your person is out there. They're living, they're breathing. They exist in this world. They are here for you, and you should meet them. And then even if something should happen or if this is your second time around, you're like, oh, I already had it. No, no, no, there is still somebody here for you. That, that is, to me, that's in the blueprint of creation. That's how the world was created. You're here. Your person is here. And now we play Where's Waldo and we go and find them.
- [56:15]
A
I love that. Thank you so much, Elisa. Okay, where can everyone find you? Hold up your book again. I want to know where people can go to you for your advice.
- [56:25]
B
So you can find my book, Matchmaker. Find me a love that lasts on Amazon or any of your favorite booksellers. And you can find me at elizabenshalom.com or my business name, which I say, but I'm like marriagemindedmentor.com we do coaching and matchmaking and we have courses and podcasts. Matchmaker, Matchmakers. My book and my podcast with lots of wisdom, inspiration, and really great things to help people find a love that lasts.
- [56:55]
A
Amazing. Thank you so much.
- [56:58]
B
Thank you for having having me.
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B
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