How to be yourself in a world that wants you to be like everyone else with Cyrus Veyssi

Summary

Podcast Summary: Brutally Anna Episode - "How to be Yourself in a World That Wants You to Be Like Everyone Else" featuring Cyrus Veyssi

Release Date: November 18, 2024
Host: Anna Kai
Guest: Cyrus Veyssi

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Introduction

In this episode of Brutally Anna, host Anna Kai welcomes Cyrus Veyssi, a renowned TikTok star, soon-to-be television host, and beauty guru. The conversation delves deep into themes of self-identity, navigating societal expectations, and the challenges of maintaining authenticity in a world that often imposes rigid standards.

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Personal Backgrounds of Anna and Cyrus

Anna Kai opens up about her upbringing as a first-generation Persian immigrant in Brookline, Massachusetts. She discusses the pressures of assimilation in an affluent, predominantly white neighborhood and her early experiences with her gender identity and sexuality.

[02:55] Anna Kai: "I was born in Brookline, and I'm the child of first-generation Persian immigrants. We assimilated heavily into the sort of, like, New England 'elite' energy."

Cyrus Veyssi shares his own journey as a first-generation immigrant from China, highlighting the similarities and differences in their experiences. Both acknowledge the complexities of balancing cultural heritage with personal identity.

[08:39] Seerus Vasey: "My parents are also educated. They moved here for higher education, and navigating those expectations has been challenging."

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Navigating Race and Identity

The duo explores the intersectionality of race, gender, and sexuality. Anna discusses feeling othered in her predominantly white schools despite being culturally affluent, while Cyrus reflects on his experiences with racial identity and the additional layers of being non-binary.

[06:05] Seerus Vasey: "I was always so concerned about the race card growing up, but I didn't have to deal with being a straight woman. That is easy."

[06:30] Anna Kai: "It's like a three-step program. Do you have any questions? Reach out? No, but yeah, it really was. It was like one after the other."

They emphasize how their racial identities were often the first aspect they had to navigate before addressing their gender and sexual identities.

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Social Media and Emotional Challenges

Anna and Cyrus delve into the psychological toll of being influencers. They discuss the relentless negativity, hate comments, and the pressure to maintain a certain image online.

[26:33] Anna Kai: "Snacking never felt or tasted so good. Perfectly popped, endlessly delicious."

[26:33] Anna Kai: (Advertisement segment skipped)

Moving past the advertisements, the conversation shifts to the realities of online influence.

[28:08] Seerus Vasey: "I was naive to what being an influencer meant."

[28:18] Anna Kai: "I share responses of people who leave hate comments on my page. Those don't scratch the surface of what I've seen in my DMs."

They highlight the dark side of social media, where public personas can attract severe harassment, including death threats.

[42:10] Anna Kai: "The conversations that I really do look forward to the most actually do happen with people that may not completely see the world as me again."

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Beauty as Expression and Forgiveness

The hosts discuss beauty as a form of self-expression and an act of self-forgiveness. Anna shares her journey of using makeup not just to enhance her appearance but to reconcile with her past self-criticism.

[44:06] Seerus Vasey: "Beauty is an act of forgiveness."

[45:29] Anna Kai: "Beauty is a form of expression. Doing makeup is a form of expression. But I also do really think it's an act of forgiveness for me."

This segment underscores the therapeutic aspects of beauty routines and their role in personal healing.

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Dating in the Queer Community

Anna and Cyrus explore the dynamics of dating within the queer community, particularly in a city like New York. They discuss the challenges of finding compatible partners and the complexities introduced by gender and sexual identities.

[55:31] Seerus Vasey: "What is dating even like for a single non-binary gay person?"

[59:57] Anna Kai: "Dating is so fluid in queer relationships. There's so much more that we can do beyond traditional norms."

The conversation touches on the difficulties of dating apps, societal expectations, and the importance of authenticity in relationships.

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Financial Dynamics in Relationships

The hosts delve into the often-taboo topic of finances in relationships. They discuss the expectations around who pays for dates, the cultural influences on financial dynamics, and the importance of open communication.

[72:52] Anna Kai: "I don't do it to get something back. I've never grown up in a culture like that."

[73:20] Anna Kai: "If you're not okay with that, that's fair. It just means that relationship might not be the right one."

They emphasize that financial arrangements should be mutually agreed upon and flexible to accommodate each partner’s circumstances.

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Conclusion and Future Outlook

Anna and Cyrus wrap up the episode by reflecting on their personal growth and the ongoing journey toward self-acceptance and authenticity. They encourage listeners to prioritize their mental health, embrace their true selves, and foster relationships based on mutual respect and understanding.

[81:16] Anna Kai: "If you spend more time every day thinking that to yourself, what is my life when people are trying to convince me to do things that I'm not convinced by, what am I doing? Am I wasting my time?"

The episode concludes with a hopeful message about the power of reinvention and the importance of staying true to one’s identity amidst external pressures.

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Notable Quotes

• [02:55] Anna Kai: "I was born in Brookline, and I'm the child of first-generation Persian immigrants. We assimilated heavily into the sort of, like, New England 'elite' energy."

• [06:05] Seerus Vasey: "I was always so concerned about the race card growing up, but I didn't have to deal with being a straight woman. That is easy."

• [28:08] Seerus Vasey: "I was naive to what being an influencer meant."

• [44:06] Seerus Vasey: "Beauty is an act of forgiveness."

• [73:20] Anna Kai: "If you're not okay with that, that's fair. It just means that relationship might not be the right one."

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Final Thoughts

This episode of Brutally Anna offers a candid and insightful conversation about the multifaceted challenges of being true to oneself in a world that often demands conformity. Anna Kai and Cyrus Veyssi provide valuable perspectives on race, gender, sexuality, social media, and relationships, encouraging listeners to embrace their unique identities and find strength in their authenticity.

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Follow Anna Kai on Social Media:
Instagram: @maybeboth
Snapchat, YouTube, TikTok: Seerus Veyssi
Tune in every Monday for more insightful discussions on Brutally Anna.

Transcript

[Anna Kai]

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[Seerus Vasey]

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[Anna Kai]

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[Seerus Vasey]

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[Anna Kai]

Get [e-mail] marketers.

[Seerus Vasey]

Welcome to Brutally Anna, a podcast about finding love, losing love, and all the things we think about but don't talk about enough. I'm your host, Anna Kai, AKA maybe both across social media, here to remind you that life can be beautiful even when it's freaking brutal. Our guest today is an example of what's possible when we let go of what society tells us is imposs. TikTok star, soon to be television host and beauty guru Serous Vasey proves through their often cheeky videos that makeup is an art form that transcends gender and that the only definition you need to be happy is the one you give yourself. And thanks so much for being here.

[Anna Kai]

Oh, what the perfect intro. Oh my gosh. Thank you for having me.

[Seerus Vasey]

Oh my gosh. I have so many questions that I so see Reese and I have so many answers.

[Anna Kai]

Yeah, tell them the backstory.

[Seerus Vasey]

We met in France, which is so bougie, but we met in France on a brand trip and got to know each other and I found out some really fun facts about you. We share a very odd shared background.

[Anna Kai]

It's so random, but also like, I feel like our energies met way before this trip because of that reason.

[Seerus Vasey]

I was like, oh, there's like a hidden wasp inside all of us. This is the way we go.

[Anna Kai]

We can unpack that for sure.

[Seerus Vasey]

We have a lot to unpack. Oh, yeah, but you know, I just. You scream so New York to me. And I was like, oh my gosh, they've been in New York forever. Born and raised. I knew you were a Persian immigrant or child of Persian immigran. And then I was like, where did you grow up? And you're like, oh, I grew up outside of Boston. I was like, oh, well.

[Anna Kai]

Cause I always say outside of Boston. Cause no one knows.

[Seerus Vasey]

No, I know. And then I was like, what high school did you go to? And you were like, I went to A small school named Nobles in Greenough. And I was like. My husband went there.

[Anna Kai]

I thought she was kid. Like, I thought she was. I thought you were trolling me. And I was just like, what an odd thing. But, like, it's. And then you immediately. It's like, one degree of, like, oh, I'm closer to this person just because they know.

[Seerus Vasey]

Oh, they get it.

[Anna Kai]

They get it. No, they get it. 100%.

[Seerus Vasey]

They get it. And so I really wanted to ask you what that experience was like, and I guess let's give a little back story for what Sangrino and the town you grew up in. And just sort of. I think that's really shaped a lot of who you are in the most beautiful way. Because I feel like.

[Anna Kai]

No, it could have gone in either direction. I mean, I just. For some background, if you don't know me, I was born in Brookline, and I'm the child of first generation. I'm first generation. So my parents were both born in Iran, and they moved to France and they moved to the US and so they. And we had a pretty. I would say, like, sheltered, you know, life when I was young. We were in a predominantly white neighborhood. We went to affluent schools. I think we assimilated very heavily into the sort of, like, New England quote, unquote. I'm saying elite, like, energy, especially into Nobles, which was. I think I was, like, one of two or three Middle Eastern people, including my brother. So it was really like, two thirds of the whole school. No, but I think I was just concerned about. Because at first, it's sort of like. I think with people who have intersecting identities, you're so aware of how each part of your identity plays a role into the space that you're in. So it was like, at the time, I wasn't out, and I was very visibly brown, and I was just like, which part am I gonna navigate first?

[Seerus Vasey]

You're also, like, huge. You're, like, so tall.

[Anna Kai]

I know. Well, I went through a little growth spurt. I was a little. Yeah, I had, like, a list. It was a whole thing. It was a whole thing. I was like. It was real. The gay lisp was real for me back then. So I really didn't have a lot going for me. But then I think once I got into high school, I came out to my dad and my mom pretty early. I came out before middle school, and they were phenomenally accepting. Did they? I mean, I was really. I think they really. They sort of felt like my feminine energy was rooted in something. I mean, I had Barbie books. Like, my parents would literally incentivize me when I was a kid to like get rid of kids toys and like replace it with a Barbie book. And I was just so. And I just thought it was so.

[Seerus Vasey]

Funny how progressive of them, because they're immigrants. And it's a very, you know, what you talked about with this assimilation, that is a very immigrant thing. Because I'm also the child of immigrants. I'm first generation. And it's like, we just, we need to just blend in to survive. But they were teaching you, hey, if you like Barbie books and this is what you like, we're not gonna force toy trucks down your throat. Totally.

[Anna Kai]

It was that. And also, like, you need to get rid of your pacifiers. Like, that was like truly the reason. But it was. No, but I, like, I think it was. The interesting part is my parents also grew up in a more open minded sort of community. They went to art school. They like, both were around, I think, a lot of queer people, whether or not they were out at the time. And so I was really lucky. I came out to my dad and then I came out to my mom. And then when I was at Nobles, I didn't come out until my senior year. And I think people I've told, I told like close friends and they knew, but I wasn't concerned about what most people would think. I was class president and I was like, I wasn't. And I had a lot of people on my side and I had a lot of protection going to a private school. I feel like people don't realize how inundated with security it is regardless of who you are. I was more so unwilling to take that part of my identity on at that time because I was so hyper focused on, like, how does race play a role in my life right now? Do you know what I mean? It was like one step at a time. There was so many different parts of.

[Seerus Vasey]

My life because I had to deal with, if we're talking about the minority card we're all playing is that I was always so concerned about the race card growing up, but I didn't have to deal with. I was born a straight woman. I have always liked men. And that is easy. You know, that makes sense. So I don't. So you had to contend with race first and then your gender identity and your sexuality.

[Anna Kai]

Yeah, it was like three steps. It's a three step program. Do you have any questions? Reach out? No, but yeah, it really was. It was like one after the other.

[Seerus Vasey]

So was race predominantly the issue first for you, because you were very brown.

[Anna Kai]

It was very that. And it, it was like people. It was almost a classist thing. It was like when I grew up, it was one of those things where I was predominantly surrounded by rich white kids that summered in the Cape, right?

[Seerus Vasey]

Yes.

[Anna Kai]

And so they would sort of be explaining to me like, you know, Falmouth. And I'd be like, I summer in the south of fucking France. We don't have to play this game. Do you know what I mean? And I never. I'm not that type of person. But it was just like I always felt very othered, even though I felt very cultured in a way that they did not experience. And I just couldn't explain. I mean, even when, I mean, flash forward to like trying to get an internship in the city, I was so gender coded and race coded. And like, I'd be around all these executives who'd be talking about like this cafe in Paris and I'd be like, I used to go there when I was five and they'd be explaining it to me and I'd be like, you don't need to play this game. But I think that is something that.

[Seerus Vasey]

I need to whip out. Something in French, because.

[Anna Kai]

No, completely. And that too, like, that was such an experience then moving on. So going back to your question, I was so. I think my race was so hyper focused on because it was so obvious that I was not white in those spaces. But it also was not an issue in terms of how I felt about myself. It was how I felt othered by the people around me. And that wasn't their fault. It was just a matter of, again, being in this country. My parents being first generation, but we came from a background that was very similar in class to the people that I was with. But when you're assimilating in America, as you know, it's not the same. They'll always see you as another.

[Seerus Vasey]

I feel all of that so hardcore because my parents are also. They're educated. They were highly educated in China. They came here because they were getting an education here. They both have higher education. And the problem is when you move to these. Because I grew up outside of Philly, which is a very similar field to outside of Boston.

[Anna Kai]

Yeah, it's always.

[Seerus Vasey]

And I didn't go to private school, so there was that at least. But in some ways, I've heard through my husband that Nobles does foster a very protective environment because there is at least that barrier of. Yeah, you know, public health is kind of a shit show for me.

[Anna Kai]

I mean, I was it. Do you think a lot of it was also because you may have been with more. Was it like you were around more people that looked like you, but at the same time there were more silos? Because like our grade, my class was 97 people. So it was like you sort of had to force yourself to accept people.

[Seerus Vasey]

Otherwise it's hard to dislike anybody. I've heard at Nobles because it was. Because you guys were such a small class, we had much. You know, there weren't that many people that looked like me still. There were probably. I could count on one hand the amount of Asian kids.

[Anna Kai]

Because you were still in that environment where I was predominantly white.

[Seerus Vasey]

Exactly. And I think, you know, when you say it's not their fault, that's what I've made peace with as an adult. I don't know if I've made peace with it. I think it's always going to have it.

[Anna Kai]

I think it's always a process.

[Seerus Vasey]

I think I'll always have a chip on my shoulder. But the thing is, I'm willing to talk about it now. Whereas I don't know for you. Like, it took me so long to admit that I was angry at the people that made me feel othered, even if I didn't blame them. Because you can be angry at the system, but not at the person. And I always say, because it still happens. And I think it's not just about being white. It's about the ignorance that sometimes permeates through that culture. And it still frustrates me because it. It's ignorance, it's not racism. Cause it's not done out of hate. And it's taken me a long time to be okay to talk about this like publicly. Because for so long I was like, I don't wanna embarrass anybody. But then the other part of it is that like so much of what I feel like, I feel like if I say something embarrassing, like if I misgendered you, right?

[Anna Kai]

Yeah.

[Seerus Vasey]

I would feel like, I'm so sorry. I just, you know, it's not like I deserve to be embarrassed, but it's like, hey, like self awareness. I deserve to be called out for something that I did out of ignorance. And I will continue to do stupid shit. That's just life. Right. But I feel like growing up for us there was a. Well, they said this to offend us, but you can't call them out because you can't make them feel be the bigger person.

[Anna Kai]

Because it's intent versus impact. And I'm like, If it does. If I'm mispronouncing someone's name and I continue to do it. I use this all the time with pronouns.

[Seerus Vasey]

Yes.

[Anna Kai]

I'm like, if you continue to call someone Nick and their name is Daniel, at what point are they gonna start to take that personally and be like, you're just not trying.

[Seerus Vasey]

Exactly. That's the difference. I think that is the difference between white privilege and the rest of us. Because that is a privilege that has been allowed to straight white men. Yeah, right.

[Anna Kai]

But that's the thing too, is I never. I think people think that when they come to my page, they're like this, like, blue haired, liberal, non binary conf. I'm like, it's. It's so simple. Like, there's so, like, I. Actually, there's like a very large community of straight guys that follow me, that love my content and know that when I say things. First of all, because I'm also like. I'm like, if you can be a fucking comedian, can I swear. I'm sorry.

[Seerus Vasey]

Oh, yeah. No, I'm like, if you can be.

[Anna Kai]

A fucking comedian, I can be a fucking comedian. So, like, if, like, you can't take things personally or you're a snowflake, like, I'm like, what? Like, I'll take the hit. Like, you can, like, call me, like, a cross, whatever, like, Transformer. I get it. It's funny. Like, whatever, do your little gig and I'm gonna hit you back. And if you can't take it, then don't come up to plate. Like, it's one of those things that I think doing comedy on my platform has given me so much peace because those straight guys love my. And I know when I say, like, men are this, men are that. They know that it's not all men. They know that they're lovely men who are working on themselves.

[Seerus Vasey]

I mean, we're with lovely men.

[Anna Kai]

That's the thing.

[Seerus Vasey]

That's the thing.

[Anna Kai]

Or like, it's just he's such a wonderful ally and realizes that it's the system, it's not necessarily the person. And also, like, have a fucking sense of humor. Like, it's not like, okay, like, all these snowflakes. Like, okay.

[Seerus Vasey]

But you beat them at their own game. And I think that's what it is, is you're very intelligent. And, like, people don't. Unfortunately, I think it's an assumption about the line of work we're in is that, oh, like, look at this snowflake wearing makeup and dancing around. Like, he must.

[Anna Kai]

Fair. I am doing. But I'm also like, there's so much more craft that goes behind what we do. Like my videos, which are 15 seconds long and I'm being chaotic. 90% of those are strategic.

[Seerus Vasey]

It's very intense.

[Anna Kai]

And I think about them and I think about how they're gonna be received and what I want people to get from those videos.

[Seerus Vasey]

And I think that's like the best part about you is that you're catering to an audience that is not just. You don't just talk about one topic, you talk about a lot of things and it's. It's controlled. Chaos is the best way to describe it.

[Anna Kai]

I want everyone to be in the universe of seerus. It's not like it happens that I think a lot of women find empowerment on my platform and queer people. And that's amazing. But I don't want to isolate people. Even when I make videos every other day that are like, these men can be trash. Or like me too. I mean it's not. But again, I think it's like the intellectual people who realize that there's a message behind it that I'm trying to convey, I think is where I find my community. And if you come on my page and you hate it, leave, like, I don't know what to tell you. I don't want you to stay. I don't mind.

[Seerus Vasey]

It is what it is. I find so much, I relate to so much on your page. Even though I am not.

[Anna Kai]

It's very neutral when I see your videos. I mean it's really is so thought out. You are such a craftsperson in what you do. It's an expertise.

[Seerus Vasey]

Yeah. And I think it makes it fun, you know, as opposed to trying to, you know. I always think about creating from a place of inspiration and not a place of necessity. And it becomes tough because we have to do it so much.

[Anna Kai]

That's such a great way to put it.

[Seerus Vasey]

Or creating out of anxiety. It's like because I have to post something and I don't. I don't post every day because.

[Anna Kai]

Tell me why. No, because. But that. I just thought about that too. Like at first it was because when I was working a full time job and I started to create content and it started to hit. I was allocating time to film 15 videos in one day because that's all I could do. I couldn't afford to do it in my nine to five. And then I would space those videos out. And then what I've realized now is like this literally happened an hour ago. I was like Literally on the street. And I came up, I had three ideas. I filmed all those three videos on the street. And I know they're gonna perform well. Cause it came from like, wait, I have this to say. Oh my God. I have this to say. And then tomorrow I'm probably not gonna film anything the next day. I might be out of ideas. Like, it's just. It comes when it comes. And I have to just do it right then.

[Seerus Vasey]

Exactly. And it keeps you very present and in the moment. And I think that's the thing. There's no way to plan it.

[Anna Kai]

No.

[Seerus Vasey]

And it's stressful sometimes because I know you and I are very meticulous planners. You are literally half an hour early to everything.

[Anna Kai]

And guys, I'm like, it's crazy.

[Seerus Vasey]

It's actually amazing.

[Anna Kai]

I told you, I tricked Michael. I told him our flight was at 8pm and it was really at 11:30. So we were six and a half hours early to the airport. And he was so mad at me. But I was like, I don't know what to tell you. I have to be like. It's just one of those things, like immigrant parents. We would never miss a flight. So I get anxiety. I have to be early.

[Seerus Vasey]

I've always been taught, if you're on time, you're late. So I hate being late.

[Anna Kai]

Persians are notoriously late though, so we're very much. Oh my God. I tell my cousins to meet me at dinner for six. If it's at six, 45 or seven. Like, there's no way. They're not going to be like, it's, it's.

[Seerus Vasey]

But how have they haven't picked up that you're lying?

[Anna Kai]

I don't. I think it's just force of habit. Or I keep just going earlier and earlier.

[Seerus Vasey]

Like, dinner's at three. Literally, dinner's at three.

[Anna Kai]

But I, I think it goes back to this. And again, I. I'm sort of the accidental content creator because my background is in speaking, is in writing, is increasing.

[Seerus Vasey]

You were thinking you were going to go into media?

[Anna Kai]

Well, percent I was at. Yeah, I. I graduated from Tufts with a degree in sociology. And everybody was like, like, nice major, bro. Like, you're never going to get a job. I was like, oh, okay, we'll see. And then I got two jobs out of college because sociology applied to so much of what I wanted to do in media, which was understand how people work. I think it made me a better person to talk about social issues because I became so much more aware in sociology and learning about how people's minds work, how social encounters are like. It's just. It's almost like the study of self awareness. So I worked at Paper magazine and I love that. And then I got a job at.

[Seerus Vasey]

That's a great first job.

[Anna Kai]

It was amazing. I like, showed up in like, fully corporate, like, coming from Nobles, like, dressed up and there's a guy wearing like. Did you wear chaps next to me? I wore a collared shirt with these, like, lapel pants and a blazer. And there was a person wearing assless chaps next to me at my desk. And I was like, okay, I'm in New York. Like, it's a very. It was a very amazing.

[Seerus Vasey]

It's a culture shift.

[Anna Kai]

It's a culture shift. And then I got hired at a brand marketing agency and I loved my experience there. And I was there for seven years. And so again, like, I didn't plan on doing this full time. I knew eventually that I wanted to maybe become a CMO or grow into like a creative position because I was a strategy director. So I worked with brands to help them cultivate and create creative from soup to nuts. From like conception brainstorming with strategists to working with makers and designers and ad agencies to actually produce the creative we thought of. So that. That was my career. And so I think a lot of the joy that I get now is, and I think you get this too, is you're stronger creative when you can see things from different angles. Like, I'll never submit a piece of content late. I'm not that type of a person. Not only because it's in me, in my DNA, but it's also because I just imagine my old colleagues and how they would feel if a creator delivered content late. And then they had to go to the brand and be. You know what I mean? It's like a cycle that I had.

[Seerus Vasey]

A whole life prior to my content creation. And it's just not. When there's no creative element to your job, you are expected to perform on time. And that is kind of baseline 101. So I agree with you. I would not be able to have the career I have now without that.

[Anna Kai]

History 100% or even like, I think you're such a talented person, you'd still have the career you have. But I do think. But maybe, but. But perhaps it's also like, you wouldn't have the level of nuance that you understand as a person and that you have.

[Seerus Vasey]

I always wanna skip ahead to the good part. And I look back on my life now and I was like, this is God teaching me that you can't skip ahead. Because if everything had gone the way I wanted it to when I was 22 to 32, I would not have the life experience to draw on to be relatable. And that's my content. I am not. I like fashion. I love beauty, all of that. But I think primarily people come for the messaging, and that's what I love.

[Anna Kai]

Yeah, I agree.

[Seerus Vasey]

There's a com, and that's for you, too. It's like, I think people love to see your gender fluidity, and they love to see somebody who was born male do quote, unquote, female things. But they also love you and your humor. You are shockingly intelligent in person. Not that I think you're unintelligent online, but it's hard to tell in 15 seconds.

[Anna Kai]

100%. Oh, 100%.

[Seerus Vasey]

And then when I found out you're back, I was like, oh. Cause Nobles is egregiously difficult to get into. And then Tufts is also very difficult to get into. I was like, oh, they're really educated. And so I dug up a piece that you wrote for Tufts in 2017.

[Anna Kai]

Oh, yeah, I think I know.

[Seerus Vasey]

And I loved it. And I just wanna. So the piece was called A Space that Wasn't Made for me.

[Anna Kai]

Yep.

[Seerus Vasey]

And it was an op ed I.

[Anna Kai]

Wrote my senior year, and it was.

[Seerus Vasey]

I mean, you guys have to go look it up. It's not that. It's probably on page two of the Google search history first. It's in there, it's in there, it's in there. But I just identified so much to what you said. And this is circling back to the first part of our conversation. I wanted to talk about this one sentence because you said the socially unaware, uninvolved, and generally conservative white population at Tufts is truly, however, the largest demographic of individuals who have contributed to my anxieties, anger, and frustration. And later on, you commented on how you were constantly trying to make yourself palatable to your community at Tufts. And the word palatable, I just wanted to talk about that because I was like, that is the perfect word to describe my upbringing and how I felt when I was first introduced to your world via my husband, is that I was constantly trying to make myself palatable to the people around me. We had our engagement party outside of Boston, and I had two girlfriends there from college. One was Hispanic, one was Korean. The Hispanic girl, he is now married to a Taiwanese man. So Asian and Mexican, right?

[Anna Kai]

Yeah, yeah.

[Seerus Vasey]

And then the Korean friend is single, and she came up to me after. And she was like, because we all met in New York. Like we. You forget in New York City that diversity isn't a given elsewhere in the world. Yeah, right. So she comes up to me and she's like, anna, some older person at the party came up to me and was like, I just met your husband, he's so sweet. Blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. And she was like, I don't have a husband. Who are you referring to? And it was the Taiwanese boyfriend of my Hispanic friend. Yeah. And I was like, how ignorant do you have to be to. Because there was no validation.

[Anna Kai]

There's. That's a really like, fuck up situation.

[Seerus Vasey]

That's pretty brutal.

[Anna Kai]

Yeah, that's pretty brutal.

[Seerus Vasey]

And I think, you know, telling that story to certain people, I think what frustrates me even more and I'm curious what you think about this and you know, maybe your similar experiences. I told that story to somebody else and they were like, oh, well, you know, that's just stupidity. They're just stupid. And I'm like, no, it's not just stupidity. It is actual ignorance and racism. And I think it's diminishing to our experience as minorities to say, oh, well, they're just not thinking. It's like, that's why I'm like, hey, if I make, you know, I'm still struggling with pronouns. I have to actively think, think to call you a day.

[Anna Kai]

Yeah.

[Seerus Vasey]

If I up, it's not because, oh, you know what? I. I didn't mean it. It's like, just remind me. I'll learn eventually.

[Anna Kai]

Exactly.

[Seerus Vasey]

But if you never admit that you're wrong, you never learn.

[Anna Kai]

That's the only line of distinction where I decide whether or not I'm going to engage in discourse with someone. Like, if someone comes to my platform and they're genuinely. The intent versus impact is there. Like they intend well, but their impact is not reading. I'll entertain a conversation with that person because I know that they actually want to learn. It's very easy for me to see people who don't try. It's very easy for me to see people over and over again mess up and fuck up over and over and over again. It's the same with like something as simple as my name. Like, I know if you're trying versus if you're not. And I think part of it too is there's definitely a segment of the population let's use pronouns. As an example, I use they, he, any pronouns. Because I'm a non binary person. I was born male. I'LL never deny that there's no point in dying. I don't think anybody who's. Who's not transgender will ever deny that they weren't. Like, that's. That's. I think that's such a homogenous piece of, like, right wing sort of, like, mentality that comes in. It's like, no, I'm male. I'm very much aware that I'm male. And I'm very much, very much. I. I know that I read as man to most people. Back to your point, though. I think when people really try to make a difference and are, again, they're. They intend well, that is the difference between someone I will engage in a conversation with or not. However, that will still hurt me as a person. So this person, whether or not they wanted to hur. Hurt you, they did. And they said something offensive and they said something racist. Even if it was a microaggression, it still happened. I think, again, people that I really care about, I want them to learn. I will make that effort. But I've also realized that I just turned 30, and I need to be at peace. Like, I need to start to, like, really start a journey of finding peace and realizing that it's just. It's. I don't need that many people like that. Like, now. Like, I was probably so much more concerned with how people thought of me five years ago, and now I'm like, it's none of my business. Like, if you believe me, I'm not gonna convince you to, like, call me. They. I don't. I don't give a fuck. I'm tired. I've been in the sun. I need to go sleep. I need to hydrate. Like, I'm like, if you. Again, I just need some spf. Like, I don't. Okay, like, you got me. You're right. Like, I'm. I. Because there are so many people who do want to learn. I think I've found that I don't need to change the world. I just want to impact the people around me who genuinely want to learn. The same way I want to learn, and I want to make a difference. And I have to practice, too.

[Seerus Vasey]

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[Anna Kai]

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[Seerus Vasey]

Well, I also think it's not your responsibility to educate the masses as minority. No, because they're not.

[Anna Kai]

That's emotional labor. I mean, I'm not doing that for free.

[Seerus Vasey]

Yeah. No, I'm like, it's not my job to explain to you why just assuming the Asian girl at the party that wasn't me was married to another Asian guy is fucked up. Like, you should figure that out, you know, and that's.

[Anna Kai]

And like, I think there's also, like, I've realized there's points in my life where I'll do the education and points in my life where I won't like, for example, with pronouns, I always say if you want to practice general neutral pronouns, which are typically they them, there are many. But they them is probably the most commonly used in the spaces that I've been. I always say just practice with me because again, I don't like. The funniest thing ever is when people come on my platform and they're like, thanks sir or hi male. And like, you're missing like you're not like, these are all things I know. And I'd also like he. And I'm like, yeah, I use he. Like I'm not.

[Seerus Vasey]

Like, you're not doing it.

[Anna Kai]

And then they're like, okay, she. And I'm like, honestly, okay. Like, I'm like, you're not hurting me. Like, it's not. But again, I think it's. I would rather people come to my platform and do that to me than to a 22 year old who just came out. Because I've. I've gone through a lot. And I also don't think people, anybody watching this, I don't think people quite realize the level of how bad it is with hate on platforms. Like, I do this thing where I share responses of people who leave hate comments on my page. Those don't scratch. Begin to scratch the surface of what I've seen in my DMs.

[Seerus Vasey]

Oh, I know.

[Anna Kai]

And it's really dark. I mean, like, it's. I have a whole team dedicated to ciphering through that kind of stuff. And so I think people do at the same time think it's all fun and games because again, they come to my platform to laugh. But if I showed people what people send me, I think they would get nauseous. Like, it's really crazy. And I think we forget sometimes that, like, there is a lot of division that happens on social media, across social media, and I'm not responsible for how people perceive that. And I can't be. Otherwise you go into a really dark place. Do you know what I mean?

[Seerus Vasey]

Yes. Well, I think people, the people sending you those atrocious hate comments, see you as an example of something that you never signed up to be kind of a spokesperson for.

[Anna Kai]

Totally.

[Seerus Vasey]

So, you know that hate coming towards. And I believe it because I get a lot of hate. But I also, again, I think there's levels where, again, I am afforded. I think it's important to acknowledge the privilege we have. And for me, it's a privilege.

[Anna Kai]

Me included.

[Seerus Vasey]

Yeah, right. It's like it's a privilege for me to be a straight woman for a second. I remember when I first went viral, I was like, oh, people are like, probably. I'm like a pretty, you know, whatever. I'm Asian, so maybe they'll come at me for that. But I don't think people are gonna find fault with what I say. Oh, my God. I mean, I'm just championing feminism. I'm just saying don't settle for less than what you deserve. And people have a problem with that.

[Anna Kai]

They'll take that and skew it. However, you know what I always say.

[Seerus Vasey]

Yeah.

[Anna Kai]

People come to my platform and they pick and they probe and what they're trying to do is they're trying to identify my trauma, but they're just revealing their own.

[Seerus Vasey]

Exactly.

[Anna Kai]

For me, I'm so at peace with who I am and where I am. And I think I really do believe that people who are hurting hurt other people. And I'm just, I can't imagine going on a stranger's platform and saying something negative about them. It's just not who I am. In. In my heart now. I probably would have when I was 22, 23, when I was young, and I think so. I never take it personally. I always, I always think to myself, like, I'm so lucky that I'm free. Like, I'm so lucky. And that is the greatest gift that I've had in life is that I've found peace. And it's taken so many years and it's taken so much therapy and it's like not one of those things where I ever want people to assume. You just wake up and do and oh, you're confident. It's 10 plus years of actively working. And the only piece of advice that I give people when they ask me is I'm like, take your mental health seriously. Start taking yourself seriously. Because I think there's this really interesting energy. I'm curious to hear your perspective on social media where we can be like dulu and like all these things about like my little mental health walk ended up with me having a cigarette and a spritz. It's funny, it's comedy. But then I do think you have to take your mental health seriously and then you have to take yourself seriously. That's when I started to really put in the change that I needed to be able to deal with my presence online, to be able to deal with the negativity and find joy all at the same time.

[Seerus Vasey]

Right. I completely agree because I was naive to what being an influencer meant.

[Anna Kai]

Same.

[Seerus Vasey]

I totally had no idea because I was trying. I was not an accidental influencer in a sense.

[Anna Kai]

You were putting in the work to be a content creator. Yeah, work.

[Seerus Vasey]

And it wasn't working. And then it worked and then it happened and I was shocked at the way it happened. But I think I still think we have one of the greatest jobs ever. It is not that. It is just the psychological warfare that happens from this job is the price we pay. And I think that's just something I never thought I would deal with.

[Anna Kai]

It's just different. I heard there's a creator named Bran and he said something that I agree with.

[Seerus Vasey]

Oh my God. Bran Flake.

[Anna Kai]

Yeah, he's so funny. I follow him on TikTok. He said something One of the things that I really resonated with was, and I agree with his perspective, the job isn't hard. It's getting to where we were. That was the hardest part and the emotional part of it. It's something I signed up for. I signed up to be public and to have my life online. I signed up for that and the job itself. Now I've gotten the hang of it. I know how to film. I know how to do my little things. But getting to where we go and the next steps, that's the hardest part.

[Seerus Vasey]

Right?

[Anna Kai]

Especially for people who will never take me seriously. I mean, like, I had brands straight up tell me, you will never be in luxury, and I'm like, look at me now.

[Seerus Vasey]

Really?

[Anna Kai]

Yeah. 100%, verbatim. I had people at executive in house. I worked at a fashion brand who told me that it was not the right industry for me again. I think they saw me as, like, a brown, gay kid. And they were like, you'll go into, like, alt media. And I'm like, okay, I'll see you in five years.

[Seerus Vasey]

You could be alt media too.

[Anna Kai]

And the best part about it is I have the power and the privilege and the army behind me now. I have a team that champions me, and they don't pigeonholed me into just doing, I don't think, like, to be very honest, I think I had one Pride campaign this year, and that was so relieving. Like, I was like, I don't have to girl boss. I don't have to boots the house down. Like, I'm chilling. Like, I'm just.

[Seerus Vasey]

But again, that's. The weight is off your shoulders.

[Anna Kai]

The weight is off my shoulders representing the entire LGBTQ community. And so much of Pride is so. Has always been so much more beyond corporate Pride and so much more before. I think it's just, like, education, understanding that even, like today, there's so much violence. There's so much violence that happens to queer people. And this happens all the time, too. It. It's like it happens in New York so much. There's trans people that are killed in New York regularly and around the country. It's like, I sometimes think about these social issues going back to, like, again, I don't want to be too serious, but my platform is about educating about the issues that are really pervasive behind what most people just imagine to be the issues. And that is rewarding to me when I can educate people about it. I have people come to my moms come to my page, being like, I never knew where the gay rights movement started and I was like, yeah, I don't blame you. I mean, it's not really something that I would imagine you would know.

[Seerus Vasey]

Well, it's not really taught in our history.

[Anna Kai]

No, it's not exactly that too. Very heavy on that part.

[Seerus Vasey]

Yeah. And I think, you know, you had to learn this on your own because you and I did not grow up in an era. We're very much millennials. We did not grow up in an era where any of this was talking about.

[Anna Kai]

What are you talking about? I'm 23. I'm not 30. Yeah, no, I.

[Seerus Vasey]

With the skincare, you could, you know. Yeah, yeah, zoom in.

[Anna Kai]

I actually don't. I'm very, like, oily today.

[Seerus Vasey]

Is it oil powder?

[Anna Kai]

I didn't. Powder. No, but I agree. I. I mean, it's just. We did not. That was not something that was taught.

[Seerus Vasey]

But how did you. Okay, so there's one thing between. You can be gay but not non binary.

[Anna Kai]

Yes. So you, sexuality and gender are very different.

[Seerus Vasey]

Exactly. So you came out to your parents in high school as gay.

[Anna Kai]

Yeah.

[Seerus Vasey]

I was like, were you non binary at that point?

[Anna Kai]

So here's the interesting thing. I always knew that my gender felt weird because I was like, I was like, oh, I need to transition. I'm a trans woman. Like, I feel so feminine. I want to wear women's clothing. I want to do all these things. I didn't know that gender inclusive energies existed. I didn't know that what not being non binary was. And then at the end of the day, it was also like, I. I finally was like, I. I went to college, we went around the circle and everybody was like, hi, my name is so. And so my pronouns are. And I was like, what the fuck are you talking about?

[Seerus Vasey]

Oh, so tough back then.

[Anna Kai]

Yeah.

[Seerus Vasey]

I was like, pronoun.

[Anna Kai]

Yeah. And I had no idea. And then I was like. I talked to some people who identified as non binary and I was like, oh, my God, this is it. I can be everything and nothing in between. I can be whatever you want me to be. I can. I'm whatever you like. I'm like, again, it goes back to. I found peace in freedom. I was like, I don't. Maybe I don't have to transition. And I didn't want to. Maybe in 10 years I want to. Like. It was about the idea of freeness and living in masculinity and femininity and not being bound by the binary binary. That's what being non binary is to me. It's not about how you See me. You're going to see me as a man. Okay. I'm at peace with that. I'm comfortable with myself. I'm comfortable with my masculinity and femininity. And that is the most important thing to me.

[Seerus Vasey]

I think also what is interesting about you being non binary is that at least for somebody like me, it forces me to be more intelligent about the words I choose. Because I was. I was listening to an episode that you had done on, I don't know, I was listening to something, an interview you were giving, and my husband walked into the room and he was like, oh, is that the guy that's coming on your podcast? I was like, it's not the guy. And then I stopped. I was like, it's not the girl. It's not. And then I was like, how would I describe. I wouldn't describe you as guy.

[Anna Kai]

Yeah.

[Seerus Vasey]

And I. I was like, you know what? See, Rus, is my guest coming on the podcast this time?

[Anna Kai]

Yeah, the person.

[Seerus Vasey]

The person.

[Anna Kai]

I've tried to do that. I mean, I do that all the time now. But then I'm also like, if you said the guy wouldn't again, it no longer comes from a place where I feel hurt because I am so sure in myself. I mean, people only use he for me all the day. And then I get very like, hi, male. And I'm like, okay, like. But like, it is like using. And I think part of it too is in Farsi, which was my first language. And this is so funny, a lot of people always say, oh, like they them is so grammatically incorrect for a person. First of all, we can unpack that. Second of all, in Farsi, we don't have she and he. We don't have those pronouns. It's only they. Like, it does not exist. You'd say, un, un, Adam, that person. Or like, who are you talking about? Oh, un. It's they them. And so I think part of it too is like understanding how intentional you are with language is actually language is a social context and being int. And how it is. Exactly, exactly. And I think part of it too is I'm like, let like my favorite part. And I use this example especially with like very right wing religious people who come to my page and they're like, this is not in the Bible.

[Seerus Vasey]

First of all, why are they on your page?

[Anna Kai]

And I'm like, but they're like, this is not in the Bible. And I'm like, Mary, Luke 23:34, Father, forgive them, for they do not know what they do. Thank You. They. Them. They do not. And I'm just like, again, I have so many different ways of approaching this conversation. I was talking to this guy once, and I was with a group of my guy friends. A lot of my guy friends are straight from high school. Love them to death. They're so sweet. They're allies we love. There was this friend of theirs who was there, and I was. He was like, I heard you use, like, they like, whatever. He's like, I'll never learn it. And I was like, okay, what am I gonna do? You're never gonna learn it. And then we were chatting more. He was like, it's just so difficult. And I was like, yeah. And I think we talked about this a little bit earlier. I was like, you know, Gavin. I don't. His name wasn't Gavin. And he was like, oh, are you talking to me? I was like, yeah, no. And I kept talking. He was like, no, my name is. I'm not gonna say his name. And I was like, oh, no, I like Gavin. You look like a Gavin, so I'm just gonna call you Gavin. And he was like, I think he was just really. He wasn't making the connection, so I just kept waiting. And then I was like, yeah. And then I called him a different nickname and he was so confused. And I was like, are you seeing what I'm trying to do where, like, your name is something. We learned thousands of names and we remember them and we choose to respect that person. And then he said this. He was like, yeah, well, I don't just change my name. And I was like, you're right. You know, it would be crazy if people in the middle of their lives, when they had a ceremony, decided to then change their name. And again, he just wasn't quite getting it. But I try and use these tactics to be like, do you just really hate me? Because that's what it is. It's like there's so many ways that you can try and learn. I can only give you the tools up to a certain point.

[Seerus Vasey]

Well, you can lead the horse to water, but it's the same thing. It's the same example with names. How people say. People are much more willing to learn how to pronounce a difficult sounding western name. Like, everybody knows how to say Timothee chalamet.

[Anna Kai]

Why? Completely 100%.

[Seerus Vasey]

Why do we all know how to say that perfectly? I know, but all of a sudden you throw in a non western sounding name and they're like, wow, I don't know. I know these woke liberals Want me.

[Anna Kai]

To learn their name? I get it. It's literally. That's what the argument is. And then what are you gonna say? It's so frustrating. I think that's the frustrating part of what we talked about, which was like the inundation of how big social media is now.

[Seerus Vasey]

Yeah, exactly. And it's the loudest, angriest minority that has to feel like the majority. But it's not. But, you know, back to your. So it's interesting in Farsi that there's no pronouns, no ta pronouns. In Mandarin, there is only written pronouns, but then spoken, it's all the same. So it's all ta.

[Anna Kai]

Ah.

[Seerus Vasey]

So when you write it, there's a male and a female form of ta.

[Anna Kai]

Sure, sure, sure, sure, sure.

[Seerus Vasey]

But when you spe, it's all them. And my parents have a really difficult time with pronouns in the US because of that. So they're constantly calling a he, a she, a she, a he. That is the time when I realized it's like gender and language is such a social construct, and we. So much of the English language is contradictory within itself, I think, about the way words are pronounced in English. Right. Okay. So the thing that I've never. Because. And you'll get this reference because, you know, we. We about Cape Cod here. There's Chatham in Cape Cod, but then there's the town Eastham. And if you're trying to apply the English. This is why English is so fucking hard to pick up for a person who's. Because it's like. Well, it's spelled East H A M. And it's spelled Chat H A M. Why is it not Chatham and Eastham or Eastham and Chatham? It's Eastham, but Chatham.

[Anna Kai]

Those are Worcester. Worcester is how it's spelled. Get the fuck out of here. You can learn how to pronounce. See? Roos you out of your fucking mind. Like, Truly, I think it's one of those situations where I'm again, I think, grateful that I have the background that I have to be able to unpack these conversations. And now I just do it in my head alone in my apartment. Like, I'm like, literally talking to myself and I'm.

[Seerus Vasey]

You just argue with me.

[Anna Kai]

I do know I'm arguing with myself in my head. Like, there's no one around me. My boyfriend goes to work. He's in the office. I'm like, truly talking to myself and I'm like, having, like. I'm like. I'm either, like, clapping back at people who don't exist. I'm just preparing myself for this.

[Seerus Vasey]

Videos are brilliant because you're clapping back at the people that do exist, just not physically in your apartment. Thank you 100%.

[Anna Kai]

And thank you. No 100%. I'm like it. I think the conversations that I really do look forward to the most actually do happen with people that may not completely see the world as me again. I think we have to have this understanding and this mutual respect for each other. But then again, I think part of it is when it comes to my identities, those don't have to be yours. I'm not taking. You're a straight dude. You're a straight dude. You love puss. Great. That's awesome. I'm not gonna take. I'm not gonna be like, ooh, maybe you're on the spectrum. Maybe you're not. Maybe you just aren't. And that's. I think it's just. I'm not trying to take away anything from anyone. I'm not trying by wearing makeup. I'm not taking it away from women. I'm like, do it with me. Like, we'll do it. Get ready with me together. I'm not trying to. Do you know what I mean?

[Seerus Vasey]

That Bob is like, you know, men who wear makeup or people who are born males. Born male wearing makeup. I don't feel threatened by that. Whereas sometimes I feel like there's this discourse around, oh, they're trying to be a woman and they're trying to take our space. I think there's enough space for everyone.

[Anna Kai]

Yeah. And also, like, my haters are my most gender affirming.

[Seerus Vasey]

Like, demo that video of yours.

[Anna Kai]

I say this all the time. They'll be like, you're a failed man. Yeah.

[Seerus Vasey]

Yes, that's true.

[Anna Kai]

And then they're like, you'll never be a woman. Correct. Also true. One plus one, equal. And I'm just like. Again, I laugh because there's so much fodder that exists behind this discourse that I, like, cackles myself alone in my apartment when those people come. Those things, it's just so good. It's so good.

[Seerus Vasey]

I know. Well, it's like free inspiration is what I.

[Anna Kai]

Absolutely.

[Seerus Vasey]

I'm like, oh, my gosh. You are my trolls. Give me some of my best ideas.

[Anna Kai]

Absolutely. Give me my best again. I like, I'm not a religious person, but I have learned a lot about the Bible and I really do. And again, it's just more Knowledge is power. It really is. It's helpful for me to know where you're coming from.

[Seerus Vasey]

It's an education if anything, if it's not a positive experience. Experiences in education.

[Anna Kai]

Absolutely.

[Seerus Vasey]

Okay, so you said this in a piece. You said, beauty is an act of forgiveness, which I love, because I want to talk about. You know, when I first started doing makeup, I did it as a means to cover up who I was. I was like, I want to look more white. I want to look like the girls with the double eyelids with the huge. All of this, you know, with the, you know, narrow faces, and I look crazy. And then we also grew up in an era where over plucking our eyebrows was all the norm. Oh, my God. The, like, shaving your eyebrow off in the thin line. Why?

[Anna Kai]

Why? I was very much in the bathroom alone.

[Seerus Vasey]

You wrote about that. And, like, first of all, your genetics is like the opposite of the over plugged. I mean, look at this that you're displaying right now.

[Anna Kai]

I'm hairy and, like, that's just what it is. Like, I'm not. But I'm very lucky. I don't have, like, I. My mom walked in on me one time plucking my eyebrows, and she was freaking out, and I was like, I just want to look more, like, feminine. She's like, you are like. She was like, mary, you don't need to do much. Like, you're good. Like, the brows aren't going to do that much. Like, it was, like, very, like. It's actually. My grandpa had these beautiful tufts, and it's so reflective of, like, my. You know what I mean? So I think it was a lot of undoing.

[Seerus Vasey]

It's a trend now to have the tufts.

[Anna Kai]

I know. So don't let your 100%.

[Seerus Vasey]

Do not let how you look be a trend. You know, it's like, this is you.

[Anna Kai]

And going back to, like, I think when I say maybe is a practice of forgiveness. Like, I do think beauty is a form of expression. Doing makeup is a form of expression. But I also do really think it's an act of forgiveness for me. Right. Like, I just remember all the times that I was really cruel to myself when I'd look in the mirror. And I think it's so lovely that now every time I do a beauty look, it's like each one of those is a separate apology. It's just like a very. And again, that's when I say it takes a really long time to find peace. And I think one of the things that I've now realized is there's a difference between being affected by what someone else says versus being impacted. So, for example, years ago, maybe someone would Say, oh, you know, your five o'clock shadow is showing. And that's a reality of like what I deal with when I do beauty. It would affect me. That's step one. And then it would impact me. So then I would make a decision based off of that. I'd want to cover it up more. I take down the photo, I would place an action towards it. Now it doesn't impact me, it affects me. I'm human. Like, I'm not going to sit there and be like, you know, when my videos go viral, I don't get hundreds of hate comments. I get hundreds of hate comments a minute. Like, I will go through and it's really getting on the wrong side of the algorithm. It affects me. I mean, it's hard to see that many people sending you death threats, you know what I mean? But it is also no longer impacting me. I don't make a decision. And I think a lot of that is because of growth and because of, okay, this person, these people are saying these things. I'm, you will not throw off my piece. And I think that is the most profound change I've gone through. And especially beauty has helped me with that. Yeah, I have a five o'clock shadow. I can't do much.

[Seerus Vasey]

But that's part of your look. I mean, again, it's another social construct to say that you can't wear mascara and foundation and have a five o'clock shadow. Why not?

[Anna Kai]

Why and why? And also like, I just, I think it becomes too like, you know, we, we start to forget that there are like biological females who have pcos and grow facial hair. We have especially like when I, when I have conversations when my boyfriend or whoever it is, when talk about like a couple who's maybe engaged, like a gay couple. Oh, you want you not having biological kids, it means like you're, it's a failed marriage. What do you say to women who can't have children, biological females?

[Seerus Vasey]

What about adoptive kids?

[Anna Kai]

That's what I was going to say.

[Seerus Vasey]

Are their parents not their real parents?

[Anna Kai]

Exactly. Like, what would you say to them? Again, it's knowledge is power. And it's also, I think it all goes back to the greatest piece that I found is this difference between something affecting me and impacting me. And I'm no longer in the impacting zone. And that just took growth, that just took maturing and literal years.

[Seerus Vasey]

And it's still, I mean that is something that I struggle with because it is, that is the mind fuckery of being an influencer. I think the Irony of getting hundreds of hate comments. I don't get quite as many as you, I think. But when I know, I know a video is going viral. When people start getting on my case, it's no longer my supporters. It's, you know, and I think that's the thing is it's like, you see it and you're like, oh, that's great. This video is doing so well because, like, this is my career. And then it goes on the wrong side.

[Anna Kai]

I get shared in Reddit, I get shared in Reddit threads. So then all of those guys come to me and it's like, hi, male. Or like, and again, I'm like, fully inhaling my takeout order, like, cackling on the, like, reading these comments and being like, I think five years ago I would have been so. But like, now I'm like, some of you really know how to read well. Like, some of them will be like, receding hairline. So far back I had to go for a run and I'm like, you could be a drag queen. That's really fucking funny. Like, I, you have to like, I've just, I've had to dissociate myself from what people say because otherwise, I do not recommend people going into our line of work if they can't start the relationship with themselves to learn how to heal and learn how to protect themselves from that energy. Because otherwise, how are you going to do it?

[Seerus Vasey]

I mean, it's. You really cannot. We're in an industry where it feels like we are defined by the people who talk to us, but we're not. And that's the thing, that's how I've survived because I got trolled very early on by a massive right wing account on YouTube.

[Anna Kai]

Oh, I've been there.

[Seerus Vasey]

He reposted my TikTok video. And this is a guy that I think actually, literally, I was like, wow, could you be any less creative? All he did was took my video. And I remember it was the video about me railing against why a couple didn't get into, like a social club because the woman was a little too outspoken, but they used all these different euphemisms. And I was just like, you know, you would never have said that if she was a man, right? Because the man was allowed to be gregarious and, you know, over the top. So it was a video about that. And this guy took my video reposted on his YouTube that has a million subscribers and didn't say anything. All he said was, I think I found the angriest feminist Ever. And then reposted my video. And I started looking at the comments and I was like, oh, my God.

[Anna Kai]

Yeah, no, it can. It's really dark.

[Seerus Vasey]

It's really dark. It's really dark when you get on the wrong side of the algorithm.

[Anna Kai]

And I'm fine. When it's. To me, my issue has always been if it's been directed to someone that I know or if it's my family, then I immediately will screenshot report, send to my teams to make sure that I'm. I'm. That's my zero tolerance.

[Seerus Vasey]

Yes.

[Anna Kai]

No, you can say whatever you want about me. I'm not.

[Seerus Vasey]

Yeah, but my family. No, my. My friends. Like, I mean, I post so little of my family. My husband as a result.

[Anna Kai]

I mean, a lot of the videos. A lot. I know, but it's. I know, but a lot of the videos that I repost now are either videos we've already done or, like, I'm very. Because again, my platform is growing. I need to protect them. We don't post where we are. I'll never post something unless I've left that location. It's just. Again, it's those things that I like when hotels want to do partnerships. I can post after I've left the week after. And people think it might be dramatic. But, like, I've heard really scary stories and I'm not going to risk it. Especially like, even. That's why I don't do meet and greets. I don't do those because I'm not. I don't.

[Seerus Vasey]

You and I are paranoid in the same way.

[Anna Kai]

I don't. New York is fucking crazy. There's people just swing on the subway. I'm not putting myself in a situation like that.

[Seerus Vasey]

People think I'm crazy because I do. I do. I don't do meet and greets. And I said, you know, eventually, I would love to meet some of my followers in person.

[Anna Kai]

Me too.

[Seerus Vasey]

I would love to meet when that happens. I told my agent when I was first interviewing with her, she was like, would you ever want to do like a live tour? I was like, absolutely. But I absolutely need two men with a gun outside the male tactor.

[Anna Kai]

I will be hiring detail. I will be hiring seven foot, two scary fucking guys like the SWAT team.

[Seerus Vasey]

But here's the thing. And I tried to explain this to her. I was like, it's not that I think I'm JLo. I know. I'm like, I'm not.

[Anna Kai]

Oh, it has. No, no, it's. It's literally.

[Seerus Vasey]

I'm just Trying to stay alive. Okay.

[Anna Kai]

It's one crazy person to die to kill you. I've seen. I've true. I've know these examples. I've seen friends of mine who are in the industry come. Not even stalkers. Like, it's. These are real things that happen.

[Seerus Vasey]

Right.

[Anna Kai]

That is like the dark side of what we do that I'm not stepping my foot into.

[Seerus Vasey]

Well, people think they know you and then they make up this whole fantasy. And like, that's. Yeah, that is the dark side. But it's interesting, the people who think. And I was thinking about this the other day, I was like, the people who think they know me. And then. Because also. Do some of your trolls follow you? Yeah, so many of my. I'm like, you're literally on my page all the time commenting.

[Anna Kai]

What is it called? It's called like a hate follow. Hate follow. Yeah. Yeah.

[Seerus Vasey]

I'm like, you think you know me. And by thinking that you know me, you think you know yourself better.

[Anna Kai]

I know.

[Seerus Vasey]

Because you think you're the opposite of why.

[Anna Kai]

That's the thing too. It goes back to, like, when people comment hate stuff on my page. You're trying to identify my trauma. You're just showing all of yours, like, this is not me. You're trying to project onto me how you're feeling. And that's not how you feel. If you tell me this is a red shirt. Okay, you can say those words, but it's not. I think again, it's like people will really try and convince you that you're not happy or that you're not X or you're angry.

[Seerus Vasey]

You know, you should be like, I get. You should be less angry all the time. You have so much going for. And you know, and I hate it when they try to wrap it into a compliment. It's like I have in particularly, like, one hate follow where I think it's a man. I mean, it's one of those nameless accounts and he's always like, you know, you have so much going for you. You know, why are you so angry? You complain so much. I'm like, I'm first. First of all, you can be angry at certain systems in place, but you can also be a joyful, happy, fulfilling.

[Anna Kai]

None of you know what you should do. Yeah, you should tell them. You know what? You are so right. If you venmo me at the small cost of 20 grand, I will no longer be angry. I do that all the time. Go back to being a man. Yes, I will. If you venmo me x amount. I will go buy a suit from men's supply, I will get my ass to bonobos and I will do it up. You wanna fund that? Absolutely. Like, okay. You just have to like. I kind of just. But I have, I've. I've become a little bit better at not trying to respond to those sorts of hate comments because it, you know, you never want to aggravate people to a point and you don't know who these people are behind to the point.

[Seerus Vasey]

Where they try to come and find you and kill you.

[Anna Kai]

No, I was convinced that was happening to me like two weeks ago and I had a panic attack. So I'm like, I'm really trying to be much more cautious about, you know, all that kind of stuff.

[Seerus Vasey]

The people who share their like home address.

[Anna Kai]

I will never. That's why, that's why I won't vlog either. Like, I'm not, I'm just, I don't. You don't need to know where I go.

[Seerus Vasey]

I know just a faceless and nameless, like just non descript background. Great for my.

[Anna Kai]

You never know. You never know.

[Seerus Vasey]

Okay, so I want to talk about dating for a second because I think dating as a single straight female in New York City is difficult enough.

[Anna Kai]

Yeah.

[Seerus Vasey]

So what is that even like for a single non binary gay?

[Anna Kai]

It's like you're at a Troy Savon concert and everyone's a bottom and you're all horny and no one is a match. That's what dating in New York is like. And there's 50 twinks jumping after the one masculine jock and like fighting to and nail for that attention. That was what dating was like in New York for me. And especially because with clearly I'm like joking a little, but I'm not. I'm like, I really, I think especially like if we talk about when I was in high school, there was no option to date. There was like one closeted person in high school who was lovely and I really liked him. And we sort of like had a little kindling after. Didn't work out. And then I moved to New York and I was sort of like. And I was really into older guys and I was really into like fathers, like dads. Like it was my type. And like everybody always is so funny. They're like, it's because you have daddy issues. I'm like, I don't know. My dad and I have a great relationship. Like there's really nothing I'm looking for there. It's just like a preference. And then I was just. It Was. But it was. Again, it was one of those things where, like, I was in New York City and I wasn't finding any luck, and I was like, where the fuck can I go if I can't find someone in New York City, Louisiana. Oh, God. Are you out of your fucking mind? In WeHo, I would. I'd rather. We.

[Seerus Vasey]

Ho. I can't. I cannot.

[Anna Kai]

It perpetually smells like poppers. Like, it's, like, really one of those places. And I really don't like to lean into, like, gay tropes and stereotypes as much, even though, like, the past 20 seconds, I feel like negates all of that. But it is. It's not. And dating is also, like, the apps are just so limited. I think what it is is you have to realize, like, what is it that you're looking for? My. I always used to say this made me want to, like, fairly fight someone. Be like. Happens when you least expect it. What if I'm always expecting it, bitch? Now what I'm always expecting. I was always expecting it. And then what I learned, Anna, was maybe it happens when your guard is down, because those things are different if I'm always. I met Michael. I met my boyfriend at SoulCycle.

[Seerus Vasey]

Yes, I remember.

[Anna Kai]

And I was always. Trust me, I wasn't fitting into those XS spandex to have fun and to spin at 6am okay.

[Seerus Vasey]

Right.

[Anna Kai]

Like, I was always, like, expecting I would. And then I'd go out to a bar. I'd be like, oh, I'm just gonna, like, I'm just gonna be with friends. I don't want to. I had, like, half a sip of an aperol spritz, and I'd be, like, feral again. And I was like, I'm never gonna get into the mindset of. It's. I'm. I'm not expecting it. However, I was like, so you always wanted to meet. I always wanted same. I was walking out of. I was walking out of the suicide glass. I'm like, I. And I physically remember I was, like, sort of, like, tripping backwards up the stairs, and I made eye contact with him, and my guard was down, right? And it happened in that moment where then I was flustered because I had to go to work and I left my glasses in the studio and I was freaking out, and I was gonna be late for work, so I was, like, raining again. My guard was down. I wasn't like, me. And that was when the universe, like, brought me and Michael together in that moment. And it was so lovely, and it was, like, really One of those, like, never thought I'd meet someone in this type of a situation. And I was at the time on so many apps, you know, Right. I was never, I was just, I just. And I, again, I think it was. Dating is so difficult when you're not on the same page and you have to be okay with taking an L. I tell my straight guys, friends this all the time because it's like you go on these date, you meet up with people that you've been talking to for weeks or like, and sometimes just, just going to be fucking awkward and it's going to be horrible.

[Seerus Vasey]

And a lot of the times, a.

[Anna Kai]

Lot of the times it is and that's normal. And like, you can't force something that is not going to like. I always. One of the things that I tried to do a lot was hide my femininity when I went on dates because I was like, these guys are never going to be attracted to me if I'm hyper feminine. And then I just realized I was silly.

[Seerus Vasey]

Is that a thing in the gay community?

[Anna Kai]

I don't want to speak for gay. For me, for me as someone who's non binary, I was like, I'm not going to wear makeup on this date because what if they're like. And a lot of it is like this internal marginalized misogyny, frankly. Because if you're not attracted to femininity, so much of that is like, what, like, what is it like? I was like only attracted to masculine guys. I'm only attracted. And then I was like, Michael is masculine in many ways, in the ways that I would like for him to be, but he's also so feminine.

[Seerus Vasey]

And I was, I was gonna say he's not.

[Anna Kai]

Yeah. No, he's not. No. And it was like I had to unlearn a lot of that. But I always used to say like, I tried to like hide it. And then I was like, by week two, this man is gonna see me in a full beat. So would I rather it happen like later down the line or just right off the bat? And so then you know, someone like Michael, who is so embracing of my femininity and is so validating of me as a gender, non conforming person, whatever you want to call me as a non binary person. I think that was like a huge part of when I started to see myself as being validated by people in the dating world. And I think if you don't see yourself as beautiful before that, it's really hard to date.

[Seerus Vasey]

Amen. But you know, I. How did he know. Because I'm always curious, like, how did he ask that?

[Anna Kai]

I was perfect and stunning.

[Seerus Vasey]

He was like that. But I always am curious. How did he know you were gay? Like, or how did you know he was gay? Because that's the thing is it's like, okay, men and women, the, you know, whatever. Okay.

[Anna Kai]

I mean, my closet is like a drape. Like, it's really not. I definitely think.

[Seerus Vasey]

Well, he, I think is more straight presenting than you are. Yeah, he's definitely speaking. You wouldn't really.

[Anna Kai]

No. And he's also just. I mean, I mean, in general, he's just a very, like.

[Seerus Vasey]

So I imagine when you were at Soul Psycho, you were not styled the way you were.

[Anna Kai]

No. And he doesn't really play around a lot with beauty and makeup and stuff. I think he knew off the bat, I was again, I don't know if it was just by the looks of me. I think we, like, very quickly flirted in the beginning and, like, it was an energy. I think it's more about, like, what are you looking for? Because at the time, I don't think either of us were. I was 25. I didn't think I wanted to, like, settle down and date someone. It just ended up happening, happening. But I think when queer people are in spaces and I'm. I love. I love Gen Z because they're all non binary. I know all, like, they're gonna change the English language. It's so funny sometimes to the point at which I cackle. Like, I used to have Gen Z interns that would, like, go get a blowout at noon and post it on their Instagram story. And I'm like, good for you, bitch. I wouldn't have had the audacity to fucking take a lunch break. Like, they're so funny. So anyway, I think the queer community is in the spaces that I have been. It's been really refreshing to see how much more we're willing to unpack a lot of the traumas that we experience. Right. If I'm growing up in an environment where men were all straight white guys who were jocks, like, that is the sort of, like, motif that I'm attracted to and that I'm going to be attracted to. And then I think it really was taking, and I'm really lucky that I'm in New York is I started to see so much more attraction not only in just like, cisgendered men, but, like, trans guys. Like, I realized that, like, masculinity is such a turn on to me and so is femininity. But, like, why did it just have to be a cisgendered man? And that. So these are all things that I learned when I moved to New York and that I was unpacking for myself. And it definitely takes an open mind. And there are certain things that I like. The way that I like. Michael's the only exception to me only wanting to have dated someone that was over six, three. Because he's my short king.

[Seerus Vasey]

He's a short king.

[Anna Kai]

I look like I'm.

[Seerus Vasey]

He wears it well, though.

[Anna Kai]

He wears it well. But again, it's those things that I was like, I'm never going to do someone under 6'three have you met the right person? You don't know. Like, it's like, you never know until you try. And if you don't want to try, that's fair. But I. I think it's also like, again, with sexuality, there are guys who are straight. Like, there are guys. Like, not everyone, I think, is so funny as many people.

[Seerus Vasey]

So you don't think every. Because there is a scope. I do think that everyone's a little bit gay.

[Anna Kai]

Listen, I think sexuality is a spectrum, for sure. I think I definitely have met guys, friends of mine who are guys that have exclusively been in relationships with women. And then there's been an opportunity to like, kiss a boy. And they have. And they've been like, okay, I'm not going to do that again. And it's fine. Like, I do think that sexuality is such a spectrum. Spectrum for people. But I also genuinely think that, like, there. There are situations where, like, people just are attracted to. And that's. And that's. You can't. Like, you're not less woke. Like, you're just. That's just your.

[Seerus Vasey]

Just straight.

[Anna Kai]

You're just straight. Like, that's fine. And it is a spectrum. Like, again, I think, like, I have thought about intimacy with women before and I've been intimate with women before and maybe it's not.

[Seerus Vasey]

That was my other question is that. Have you had relationships with women?

[Anna Kai]

Never relationships. I think that's where my. I think I'm like much more of platonic life partner would be a woman for sure. But I do think that there is.

[Seerus Vasey]

You'd be a great remedy.

[Anna Kai]

No. Right. And I do think sexuality is a huge part of it. But there's women who've turned me on. There's like, I've been in situations where I've hooked up with women. And I've been in college and that was great. And it was really fun. None of it was off. It was great in the moment. And so I think in that way, it is a spectrum. But when it comes to. I'm like, okay, who do I want to date and build my life with? And I found that my attractions lead me closer towards men. And again, not just males, but men, like, people who identify as men. That energy is something that I think complements me so well in my life right now.

[Seerus Vasey]

But I think you bring the feminine. We all need to find a complimentary energy, like you need to find. And men can be feminine.

[Anna Kai]

Yes.

[Seerus Vasey]

So I think that's. It's not about, oh, you like makeup? It's what complements your energy.

[Anna Kai]

And then later on in life, guys who are. Who were straight and to this day, who are so in touch with their feminine and get so, like, gushy and blush when, like, gay men compliment them or women, like, I. That's so endearing. Like, it's like you're unlearning so much toxic masculinity, and it's so hot. Like, I think it's so attractive.

[Seerus Vasey]

I think it's so hot. You know what I think is so great is something as simple as a man at a party not going for the beer. That is such a beauty.

[Anna Kai]

Get yourself a little cosmo. Get yourself a little fruity drink.

[Seerus Vasey]

The guys now when I'm at a party and they're like, can I have a passion fruit? High noon. Totally, totally. There's beer. They're like, no, I want the pink one. Or I offer them a spindrift, and they're like, the grapefruit one. I'm like, it's just good. Okay, totally.

[Anna Kai]

Get the. They them drink. Get it. Do it. Like, you know what?

[Seerus Vasey]

No, go and start further. Get the she drink.

[Anna Kai]

Well, that's what I was like. I was like, it's again. Like, I had made this video this morning. I was like, it's not that gay to wash your hands, you know, after you use the public restroom. I feel like a lot of men.

[Seerus Vasey]

Wait, by the way, is that a thing?

[Anna Kai]

No, no, no, no, no, no, no, no. This happens 90 fucking percent of the time when a restroom with men is that they'll shit or piss and they'll walk right out. And I'm like, you're, like, making out with a man. More gay. Much more gay. Using chapstick. Not gay. Like, I'm just. It's so. I'm like. I'm like, how? Washing your ass. It's not that gay having a man play with your ass. More gay. Like, I'M like, how do we, how do I talk to straight guys in a way that like affirms them so that I'm like, you are good. Like, you are straight. You are so masculine. You're so hetero. You can do skincare, right? It's not. You're not. Nothing's gonna happen. So I, again, I think it's fun to be playful with that. But I do, I do see so much joy in having conversations with people who are so outside of my zone of comfort. But then intimately, I do like, like Michael is such a wonderful partner in that he complements me in many ways. And we, and not just in our energies and our masculine feminine energy, but also just in the, the way that we are as a couple and how we've grown together as a couple. So it's. But I always, I'm like, my favorite thing to do is set up is to set up my straight friends, my girls and my, and my guys. Like, I love it because it's, it is now I'm so at peace with how dating environments work that I think I can really help. I cannot set up gays. I cannot really. They're so hard to set up.

[Seerus Vasey]

Like, why is that?

[Anna Kai]

Because either it's like, I'll never date a fucking bottom or like this, like, he looked at me in the wrong way. I'm like, Mary, he was looking for like the exit. Like, he's not. Like, it's so much more complicated. Like, get me a 26 year old girl who lives in Kips Bay. I will find you the man of your dreams. Get me like a former finance bro who went to UCLA and does film. I will find you the girl of your dreams. Like, I'm so much more open when there's less drama. And I found that there's so much more drama with gay dating.

[Seerus Vasey]

I would have thought the opposite. Because.

[Anna Kai]

Right. Intuitively you would think.

[Seerus Vasey]

Because I think there's so much misunderstanding between men and women because we speak different languages. I'm like, men and men. You speak the same same language.

[Anna Kai]

I once set up two bottoms on a date and they, I don't think they spoke to me for like a month. Waste of time. Imagine.

[Seerus Vasey]

But I'm curious as genuinely have never. I know the terminology. I didn't realize that was the thing.

[Anna Kai]

Like somebody's calling, like how it is across categorization. So let me be like, you know, when. How do you enjoy sex? Right? Like there's so many ways. There's people who are like strict tops who want to penetrate and Then there's bottoms who want to be penetrated and then there's like a ecosystem around that. I think with sex it's so much of a conversation. It's really hard though, when you put two bottoms in. I've tried, listen, in the past, I've dated, I've gone on dates with, you know, and tried to make it work with bottoms. And at the end of the day, like, you just end up bumping purses. Like there's nothing more to it. There's really nothing more to it.

[Seerus Vasey]

But that's a conversation you have on the first date.

[Anna Kai]

Yeah, but also, like some people aren't interested in penetrative sex. Like a lot of queer couples. They're just, it's. The sex is so fluid. Like some people are like, I. There's two bottoms who have really great energy, who've always thought of themselves as bottoms. They meet, they love each other. And maybe penetrative sex isn't what they're. Then there's so much more that they can do with it. Like I try and not put those cross categorizations, unless I'm being cheeky and trying to be funny, into real existence because there is so much fluidity when it comes to sex in queer relationships and with trans people, like sometimes, sometimes there's also like asexuality, which plays a role in platonic and non platonic relationships. There's so much to it. So I think overall I've just found more success when I've tried to set up my straight girlfriends or guy friends. And like, I'm simple. My guy friends are so simple. From. There's my straight guy friends. I love them to death. They're so from Nobles. It's so much easier. I can like put together little Tinder profiles for. And it's great.

[Seerus Vasey]

It's so well defined. Maybe that's what it is with the straight relationship, is that everybody sort of knows their role. A huge point of debate on social media is still who pays for the date? But then in a queer relationship, what are the rules around that? What are the expectations? How does that all work, taking out.

[Anna Kai]

The cultural part of it? Because in Iran there's this culture of Tarof, which there's no word in English. It's like when you're about to go through a door, no, you go, no, no, no, no. You go for no, please. I would die. No, no, no, please. My ancestors would curse me. You go, it's very like, it goes on and on and on. It's paying the bill. It's rude.

[Seerus Vasey]

Same with Chinese culture.

[Anna Kai]

So when it plays the role into dating, you know, I think I've always been of the mentality of, you know, whenever I've, and this is with friends too. If I invite you somewhere and I've picked the place, then I offer. I mean it's me who's picked the place when I used to go on dates or you know, even when Michael and I go out now we split a lot and like. But then there's also times where like I'm being a passenger princess and I want to Uber and I'm not going to and he could take this train anywhere. I'm not going to force him to pay for something he usually wouldn't. And for me it's something that I would want to do. It's also like you have to figure out in your relationship where there's give and take. Like there's moments where Michael will be really generous disproportionately to me for a couple weeks and then I'm the opposite. Right. I think there is a very. And I also, but I think everyone's opinion is valid. Like I, you know, I have friends. When women put so much effort into these, their dates and they put so much effort into what they're wearing and like the dress and it's expensive and it's so much goes into it. And I do think that there is something really charming about chivalry and about men and all that. But I'm also like, again, I understand that whatever it is, whether you are in a 50, 50 relationship, 75, 25, whatever it is, like it just has to work for you guys and that's okay. Everything is everything. It just depends. Generalizations are really tough, especially in the queer community because you know, there is a lot of, there's a lot more that goes into it. All I'll say is that my mind has changed so much where when I was 22 or 23 and I'd go on dates and I'd be like, this 38 year old is going to pay for my dinner. You know what I mean? Like I went through that phase and now being in a relationship, I think there's, there's again disproportionate times and there's, there's moments where we, you know, one person is more generous in this way. One person. But it grows beyond just who pays for the first date. What I will say is I think that it is common etiquette that if you invite the person or you're the one who sets up the date and you pick the place, you know, you would. One would offer, but I don't know, I could get kids canceled for that. So. Really, that's. Trust me, I don't know. I just. That controversial. It really is right now. But again, I think I. I've like, I think it really depends on the situation. I mean, I know. I know women who are much more financially stable than their partners than men, and they end up disproportionately paying for a lot more. And they're okay with that?

[Seerus Vasey]

Yes.

[Anna Kai]

If you're not okay with that, that's fair. It just means that relationship might not.

[Seerus Vasey]

Be the right one.

[Anna Kai]

Exactly.

[Seerus Vasey]

But. And I think money is one of those things that people need to talk about way earlier in a relationship, because I think I've been in relationships and I see some of my girlfriends who are in marriages where you do not see money the same way. And I think maybe it makes it more complicated in a queer relationship because there's no expectation where the guy pays and, you know, all that.

[Anna Kai]

Yeah, we go. Yeah.

[Seerus Vasey]

But in some ways it probably forces the conversation a little bit sooner, which is good because I feel like for me, I had to come to terms with the fact that I was really just not gonna be okay paying for a first date. And I just. I just stopped offering because I felt like it was fraudulent to do the fake reach. And I would rather be seen as entitled because it is a little entitled. I don't know what it is.

[Anna Kai]

You're so swear about it. That's okay. I'm like, just, Mary, be honest. I'm like, everyone, just be honest. Like, what do you want? And that's okay.

[Seerus Vasey]

I know my mom's name, so I love her.

[Anna Kai]

Oh, I'm dying. Oh my God.

[Seerus Vasey]

I'm talking to her. Which is great in a loving way.

[Anna Kai]

But like, that's okay. And then I like my mother, you know, my dad was the provider in everything. And that's just how it was. That was their relationship. And that's how the culture was too behind it. So it worked and it worked. But again, like, I think it gets more nuanced. I don't need the things that I needed before. And getting our silly little takeout or like a bouquet of flowers randomly. Those little acts that before, they just mean so much to me. I think it's like, again, it's. It really is a give or take. And I find so much joy in treating him. He finds a lot of joy in treating me. It's just disproportionate at times. I think being in a relationship, we just go through different phases, and that.

[Seerus Vasey]

Works for us, but it evens out. And I think what the beautiful part is, neither of you are calculating. I think when people are calculating, because I have this. And I'm sure you've had girlfriends who talk about, well, he did this, I did that. But I think where the disconnect is when I see a lot of my friends who are. Who are going through this is they see spending. Spending money in different ways as their partners.

[Anna Kai]

Much more transactional in that sense.

[Seerus Vasey]

Exactly. And it's like, well, you know, they're 50, 50 relationships, which I don't have a problem with, again, as long as everybody's okay with it. But it's like, well, he bought this out of his account, and it was a frivolous purchase, so now I get to do this out of my account. And now we all have a little bit less money to put in the joint pool because maybe there's children because they have a shared account. And I'm like, that's too exhausting for me.

[Anna Kai]

I don't do it to get something back. I've never been that way. I've never grown up in a culture of that way. I'm just, you know, And I think it's. It's. It's very.

[Seerus Vasey]

Well, the 50, 50 account thing is also in our generation thing. I mean, my parents did not have separate finances. There were no finances to be.

[Anna Kai]

No.

[Seerus Vasey]

There was no money.

[Anna Kai]

It was. It's very. It's a very. And again, I think, like, I talked to a lot of my guy friends who do end up paying for a lot of stuff, like, especially in their relationships, and it can be frustrating to them. And I always say, listen, like, maybe it's just not the right person, because if they're feeling that entitlement and that's how they feel, okay, let them. Maybe they're just not for you. Maybe you will. Maybe you just need to wait till you find the person who is okay with doing this this way or being more this way. Because I get his perspective, too. I get. I get people's perspective. I think the most important thing is just really being aligned with the situation that you're in. Because then if you're not, you start to resent.

[Seerus Vasey]

And I think.

[Anna Kai]

And then you start to calculate.

[Seerus Vasey]

Right. Because you're trying to make sure you're not getting the short in the stick. And I think this money conversation also, when it comes down to is people not wanting to be dehumanized. I think when Men don't want to pay for everything. They don't want to be seen as just a blank check. Right.

[Anna Kai]

Yeah. Which.

[Seerus Vasey]

Which I totally get. And then on the flip side, I think when women want men to pay for dinner, they want to be seen as valuable enough to be taken out. Right. Not to just be.

[Anna Kai]

Yeah. You know, or feel like they have to transactionally, like, return any sort of favor.

[Seerus Vasey]

Exactly. They're just worth it that time.

[Anna Kai]

Of course.

[Seerus Vasey]

So we think it's sort of, you know, when people feel taken advantage of on either side, they're really talking about the same thing. It's the dehumanization of dating, which I think the dating apps have unfortunately done, because it is. So there's a plethora of choice. You know, we're spoiled for choice on these dating apps. People become transactional. It's this idea where it's like, there's too much, so it's no longer a privilege. Right. I mean, anything. We value it if there's less of it. And so, you know, it's very interesting that you were on all these dating apps and then you ended up meeting your partner.

[Anna Kai]

I know. Right there. It was so. It's wild.

[Seerus Vasey]

And then. Do you see? So what is a lifelong. So Michael's your partner. Right. Is he your boyfriend? Do we define.

[Anna Kai]

Yeah, I. Boyfriend.

[Seerus Vasey]

Are you his boyfriend?

[Anna Kai]

Yeah.

[Seerus Vasey]

Okay.

[Anna Kai]

He'll. Yeah, we joke about that every once in a while. Well, maybe you're both. Well, if I'm a little moody and he says boyfriend or he uses my he pronouns, I sort of freak out at him as a joke, which makes it so funny to me. No, but we're partners. I mean, we. He's my boyfriend. I'm his boyfriend. I don't. I don't. I. He. He's very respectful. Call me his partner to people, but I think, you know, we're in this sort of mindset of we're very respectful of each other's identities, but we're also able to, like, play and humor each other a little bit.

[Seerus Vasey]

And you don't take each other too seriously?

[Anna Kai]

No, no, no. But we have that relationship. Right. It took four years.

[Seerus Vasey]

Right.

[Anna Kai]

Four plus years to build.

[Seerus Vasey]

What does a future look like for you guys? Like, is marriage in the cards? What. What do you think about kids? I mean, you can have biological children now.

[Anna Kai]

Totally. I mean, I think part of it, too, is, like, I always like to think about it as. As long as we're always on the same page, the relationship will continue to work. So. And I think something my brother Actually taught me, which I think is really helpful, that I think about not just with relationships, but in life, is. I can imagine of my ver. I can imagine a version of life. Xyz. So, like, I can imagine various versions of life. I can imagine a version of my life where marriage is in the picture where marriage isn't in the picture. I can imagine a version of my life with kids. I could imagine a version of my life without kids. I think that gives me a lot of freedom into taking away the stress, and then I get more clarity, you know what I mean?

[Seerus Vasey]

And I think of what you want in the present.

[Anna Kai]

Yeah. Like, I think Michael and I are in such a great place together, and we've lived together. And when those conversations come up, like, we'll have them, and we just have to be on the same page about everything. And I could imagine a version of my life. Right now. The biggest version of our life that we're trying to figure out is whether or not we have a version with the dog or not. Like, it's. We're having that conversation.

[Seerus Vasey]

Oh, my God. The version with the dog is always a. Right.

[Anna Kai]

Yeah. So, like, for example, we're. It's constant communication and trying to figure it out and doing all those things. So. And his. His needs and wants are very valid and so are mine. So I think, again, it's whatever version of life it is with marriage. And I think a lot of, you know, cisgendered men in relationships don't have to, you know, always deal with childbirth and children. And I know, you know, couples that waited until they were 40 and if they were still together, they got married.

[Seerus Vasey]

Which, by the way, which is so great that you guys get. You deal with so much shit, you know, that it's like, at least you guys don't have the pressure of the ticking time bomb that women.

[Anna Kai]

Exactly. In straight relationships, we're really privileged. And I think that gives us a lot more freedom into just being together. For sure.

[Seerus Vasey]

You can have a kid at 40 and not think, oh, my God. Not have society telling you, you're messing up your kid. Your kid's gonna have autism.

[Anna Kai]

No, my parents. I mean, my parents were. My parents were 22 and 19 when they met. My mom was 19. She didn't have my brother until she was 32, so they waited 12 years. Again, it's. They were never of the mentality of, we need to have kids now. A lot of Iranians were, but you just. What is life? What is. What is. What is life? When you're pressuring yourself to do things. What is life when you're allowing people who don't know you to make you feel bad about things that you don't feel bad about? What is that? What kind of a life is that? I think that's always easier said than done, what I just said. But if you spend more time every day thinking that to yourself, what is my life when people are trying to convince me to do things that I'm not convinced by, what am I doing? Am I wasting my time? I think that has really been profoundly important for me in my day to day.

[Seerus Vasey]

That's beautiful. I think that's. I. I have no further comments. No further questions, your honor.

[Anna Kai]

This was so lovely.

[Seerus Vasey]

It was amazing. And where can people find you? Ceruse?

[Anna Kai]

You can find me on Madison between 50th and 60th at Tom Ford, at Prada. You can find me on Social C Y R U S V E Y S S I on Instagram, Snapchat, YouTube, TikTok, all the good things. And also make sure to tune in on August 1st Prime Video for the premiere of Influence, which is a show that I'm hosting, by the way, some lovely other creators.

[Seerus Vasey]

This is going to come out after August 1st.

[Anna Kai]

Make sure to tune in to prime video if you haven't already watched the show Influenced. I'm a host on that, so you can find me there. And I have some other fun little projects coming out, so definitely follow me on socials to stay tuned and updated.

[Seerus Vasey]

Thank you so much, Siruth.

[Anna Kai]

Thank you. Ryan Reynolds here from Mint Mobile. With the price of just about everything going up during inflation, we thought we'd bring our prices down. So to help us, we brought in a reverse auctioneer, which is apparently a thing Mint Mobile unlimited premium wireless. 3030 bid to get 30 get 20 2020.

[Seerus Vasey]

But to get 2020.

[Anna Kai]

But get 15 15.

[Seerus Vasey]

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[Anna Kai]

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[Seerus Vasey]

Slower above 40 gigabytes. You detail.