← Brutally Anna
Brutally Anna
How to stop being depressed and signs you’re dating a narcissist with Dr. Jaime Zuckerman
01:03:54
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- [00:00]
Anna Kai
This episode is brought to you by Progressive Insurance. Do you ever think about switching insurance companies to see if you could save some cash? Progressive makes it easy to see if you could save when you bundle your home and auto policies. Try it@progressive.com Progressive Casualty Insurance Company and affiliates. Potential savings will vary. Not available in all states.
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Dr. Jamie Zuckerman
Come to me.
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Anna Kai
Focus Features invites you to succumb to the darkness. From director Robert Eggers comes a masterpiece piece of horror.
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Dr. Z
He is coming. This creature is a force more powerful than evil.
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Dr. Jamie Zuckerman
It is death itself.
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Anna Kai
Nosferatu we do r under 17nm without parent only theaters Christmas Day special engagements in Dolby and Imax.
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Dr. Jamie Zuckerman
Welcome to Brutally Anna, a podcast about.
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Anna Kai
Finding love, losing love and all the.
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Dr. Jamie Zuckerman
Things we think about but don't talk about enough.
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Anna Kai
I'm your host, Anna Kai, AKA maybe both across social media here to remind you that life can be beautiful even.
- [01:07]
Dr. Jamie Zuckerman
When it's freaking brutal. I always like to tell you all that I'm no professional, but I am so excited to say that My guest today, Dr. Jamie Zuckerman, aka Dr. Z, is she's a licensed clinical psychologist and expert in narcissistic abuse and is a frequent media contributor in the arenas of mental health, relationships and wellness. He here to answer all of our burning questions about why relationships make us feel so crazy and more is Dr. Z. Thank you so much for being here today. I am so excited to chat with you.
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Dr. Z
Thank you so much. I've been waiting for this conversation for so long and just absolutely adore you and everything you put out there. So I'm honored to be here.
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Dr. Jamie Zuckerman
Ditto. Right back at you. So can you first tell me a little bit about yourself and why you decided to pursue psychology for a living and deal with everyone else's problems so.
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Dr. Z
I don't have to deal with my own? No. So I, I always, I was just fascinated by psychology, always, ever since I was younger, how the brain works. But I actually initially was interested in the brain itself. Not necessarily a psychologist, but I loved neuropsychology. I love neurology. I'm still fascinated by the brain. I'm like a closet brain nerd. And then when I went to college, the brain classes weren't as fun and so I started learning more about personality, which then kind of shifted into behaviorism. And I just find it fascinating that we can change behaviors without necessarily changing moods and emotions. And I just, I find that really helpful and fascinating because I think sometimes people get locked up in trying to change their thinking and their moods before they change their behaviors. So that's kind of the route that I took, and that's. That's kind of how I fell in love with psychology.
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Dr. Jamie Zuckerman
I love that you can change behaviors before you can change moods. Because here's the thing is, like, I struggle with this a lot. It's like, I want to feel good before I do something.
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Dr. Z
Absolutely.
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Dr. Jamie Zuckerman
And I think a lot of women do this when it comes to relationships because they're like, oh, I want to feel like the best version of myself before I go out and find a guy. And sometimes I feel like that's a little bit of an excuse to not go out and date and put yourself out there. Or for me, it's like, I want to be a hundred percent ready for something before I start on a new project. Like, with this podcast, I was like, I want to feel a hundred percent ready. And you realize you never feel quite there. So what do you mean by you can change behaviors without changing the moods and the feelings? Can we elaborate on that?
- [03:42]
Dr. Z
Yeah. So really kind of what you said is that, you know, take your podcast, for example. If you waited till you felt 100% ready, you never would have done it. Right. And so a lot of the times, the reason why we think or assume that we need to wait until we feel better is because we assume that until we feel a certain way, we can't behave a certain way. And that. And the two, to be honest with you, aren't really related. Do they help each other? Sure. But, I mean, I can say to my kids, you're going to school even if you don't feel like it. Just because they don't feel like going doesn't literally and physically prevent them from going to school. And so if they go to school, then they gain the experience of being at school. Things are allowed to happen during the day that then improves their mood. So it's kind of like you have to give yourself that new experience to challenge that thinking, that you have to prove it wrong to prove it right and give yourself a new experience to change the emotion. So, you know, if you take somebody who's severely depressed and you tell them, tell me three things. This is, like my pet peeve. Tell me three things that you're grateful for today.
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Dr. Jamie Zuckerman
Oh, my God. Thanks.
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Dr. Z
Okay. If you ask a depressed person what they're grateful for, what you're going to get is somebody who's even more depressed because they know they should be grateful, but they can't come up with anything that they're grateful for because their brains are not working properly. But if you say to them, can you put one foot on the floor and at the same time not feel like getting out of bed? Well, yes, I can do that. Can you brush your teeth and at the same exact time not feel like doing it? Yes, I can. It's difficult, but I can do it. If it's too difficult, can you just put toothpaste on your toothbrush? And you know when you break it down so small and the goal isn't necessarily to brush your teeth, the goal is to give yourself that feeling of self efficacy that I can do things and at the same time feel a certain way. Because I promise you, after you brush your teeth, what do you think happens to your mood? It increases better.
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Dr. Jamie Zuckerman
Yeah. Right. And so if you were like, exactly. Leads to the feeling.
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Dr. Z
Exactly, exactly. And so this is why I think a lot of times people get stuck in therapy talking in circles, because we could talk all day long about how so and so is not good for you, how so and so is bad for you. But if you don't actually take some actionable, tangible steps, nothing changes, period.
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Dr. Jamie Zuckerman
That's so interesting. And it's the same thing. Like when I get up in the morning to work out before my day starts, I never feel like it. It's the last thing I want to do. But I am always glad I did it. But there are a million reasons and excuses I can give myself for not getting out of bed. I'm like, oh, well, you know, sleep is more important, which it is. Like, look, if you've only had three hours of sleep, like, don't get up and work out, right? But you know, let's say it's a day where you got seven hours and you're like, but eight hours is optimal. And it's like, I could probably get out of bed and do a 20 minute workout. It's just, it's so simple. But it's not easy.
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Dr. Z
It's not easy at all.
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Dr. Jamie Zuckerman
Yeah. And it's like just doing what you say you're going to do is actually, I feel like the key to everything because we all know what to do. It's actually doing it that's so difficult. Whether we are in an abusive relationship and we know we need to leave, but we just can't do it because we won't do it.
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Dr. Z
That's right.
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Dr. Jamie Zuckerman
So your specialty is a narcissism. And I feel like that word is thrown around so, so much on social media to the point where like, I'm like, what does that even fucking mean? Honestly, I know. So can you give us a clear clinical definition of what narcissism is?
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Dr. Z
With pleasure.
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Dr. Jamie Zuckerman
Pleasure. Not everyone's a narcissist. They're a little selfish and people can act poorly, but that doesn't automatically make them a narcissist, Right? Correct.
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Dr. Z
I always say this, not all assholes are narcissists, but all narcissists are assholes. Right? So. And you know, the danger of this word being thrown around so much is that, is that one, it invalidates the experiences of the people who really are going through it. And two, it. It makes people not want to hear you out when this is really what you're dealing with by saying, oh, whatever, everyone's a narcissist. Even when I post stuff on social media, it's like, you call everybody a narcissist. Well, no, I really don't. And here's why. And so, you know, I think the term has, has, has really started to take off because I think it became a dumping grounds for you get broken up with and the person's an asshole, and so you throw them into the narcissist bin. And listen, they may be completely toxic and they may have really horrible patterns, but that is still extremely different than someone who has narcissistic personality disorder. And they're very different things. So somebody who has a true narcissistic personality disorder is going to be that way at all times with everybody, across every domain. They're not just going to be that way with me or with you. They're going to be this way with everybody. They may appear different to different people, but it's a facade. They're acting a certain way to get what they need in a given situation. So if you think of their core construct, a narcissist, it's like kind of like an empty shell. And then all the faces that you see of them are what they put on to be able to get what they need. Whereas somebody who's a toxic person but not a narcissist, they have a core sense of self. They just do stupid things. So there's a difference. But a true narcissist, somebody who lacks empathy, takes zero accountability for any of the harm that they have caused. They think that I need to get what I need to get. And if you're in the way while I'm trying to do that, well, you're kind of just a casualty of the situation. That's not my fault. That's your fault for being in the way. Little remorse. Like I said, they have these very grandiose ideas of themselves. But that doesn't necessarily mean that they think they are holier than now, that they should be be on top of the world and you know, all of these things. But there's also narcissists that think that they have these amazing ideas but yet they never put them into practice. But they think that they're great and they have all these concepts and I'm going to do this and this, but they actually do nothing. And then we have these kind of vulnerable narcissists who are the narcissists that always play the victim, right? Everybody is mad at me all the time. There's nothing I can do that's going to make it better. Woe is me, I'm always the asshole. And they kind of take on this nothing I ever do is right type of Persona. So you kind of like that, gravitate towards that. Always pushing them up and making them feel better. But they're fine. That's the thing. So there's different types of narcissists. I think the key is they're very non empathetic, not remorseful. They are very, very triggered by even constructive criticism. They can rage in response to that. They can. Nothing they do is wrong, nothing is their fault. You will never get them into therapy to make significant changes. And they, and they really do think that they are entitled and more deserving than others.
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Dr. Jamie Zuckerman
So what's the difference though between somebody who is narcissistic and somebody who is selfish? Because I think that's very hard to differentiate in a relationship because I have girlfriends who are dating, slash married, engaged to, I think, selfish men, right? But at the end of the day it's like, okay, there's a huge difference between somebody who's selfish and you know, really just kind of lives for themselves and somebody who's narcissistic. And then yeah, I have a girlfriend who I always never really liked her partner and I always thought he was very selfish and had a very inflated sense of self. But I thought that's where it ended, right? I was like, okay, look, he's a selfish guy. I would never date him. I think he's really inappropriate. Like I remember one time a couple girlfriends were saying, oh, he was telling me and my boyfriend, who, you know, this other couple, they've been together for a long time and they don't know if they want children and they're pretty sure they don't actually, but they're very committed to each other. And he basically sat them down and I don't know why, but he was like, you're really selfish for not wanting children and this is why you should want children. And I just thought that was the wildest thing because it's like, why do.
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Dr. Z
You care, first of all, right?
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Dr. Jamie Zuckerman
And I was like, what? I would never.
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Anna Kai
If somebody told me they didn't want.
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Dr. Jamie Zuckerman
Children, I'd be like, cool, More power to you. That shit's tough. But it's also, why would you waste your energy? And then he ended up cheating on my girlfriend when she was pregnant and leaving her for the woman that he was cheating on her with and takes no accountability and says that it's actually her fault that they have this contentious relationship because she is not willing to co parent amicably. And so now he's crossed over, obviously into narcissistic personality.
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Dr. Z
Right, right, right, right.
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Dr. Jamie Zuckerman
But how, how would we know? Like, for a woman who is in a relationship with a man like that, where do we say, okay, I can deal with a selfish man, but he's got all these other good qualities and, oh, this man's gonna royally screw me over?
- [12:53]
Dr. Z
Yeah. I mean, narcissistic abuse follows a very distinct pattern. It has a very distinct playbook. So, you know, somebody who, let's say, is selfish, just generally speaking, you know, but they're not a narcissist. That selfishness is going to be evident from the beginning, throughout all their relationships dynamics. You're going to see it. It's going to be one of those things about your partner that you're kind of like, all right, I know. They're like this. Can I deal with it, yes or no? Whereas with someone who has true narcissistic personality, that selfishness, which is a different type of selfishness, selfishness, which I'll talk about, that's never going to appear in the beginning of the relationship. The beginning of the relationship is going to be one of you're going to seem to bond on all of these things. They're going to be extremely nurturing and giving and kind, and they're going to love bomb you with, you know, let's say you have a love of hiking, they're going to have a love of hiking. Let's say that you're the type of person where you don't really like to discuss your feelings, they're going to love bomb you and say, you know what? I hate discussing my feelings too. They're just going to try to match you. And so in the beginning, you're really not going to recognize this person as a selfish. You're just not. You're actually going to look at them as somebody who's sweeping you off your feet. They're my soulmate. I can't even imagine that I've lived life this long without them.
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Dr. Jamie Zuckerman
Did you watch the Scott Peterson and Lacey Peterson documentary?
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Dr. Z
Oh, yes, I do.
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Dr. Jamie Zuckerman
I'm not done yet. I'm on the third and final episode. But so good that when you said, oh, they're gonna sweep you off your feet in the beginning, for those of you who haven't watched it, go watch it. Because it's such a good documentary.
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Dr. Z
Yeah.
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Dr. Jamie Zuckerman
And I can't believe it's been 20 years since that happened.
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Dr. Z
Isn't that crazy? I know.
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Dr. Jamie Zuckerman
Yes. I remember when it first came out because I was 12, I think. But at that point, you're already cognizant of what's going on in the media. And it was so huge. But I remember Lacey Peterson's mom saying that she found it very strange that as a 22 year old, he was taking her on vacation to Mexico and was really just showering her with love and attention. And all her friends were like, what.
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Anna Kai
He was doing was love bombing her.
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Dr. Jamie Zuckerman
But we didn't have that term at the time. And even if we did, my 20s.
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Dr. Z
Honestly, even if we did. And this is the problem, and this is why I love when people talk about this stuff, especially on podcasts, because even if you do have the language, find me one person who's going to look at that and say, no, it feels good. Right. Like you think you're, you don't realize it's love bombing because they're so skilled at it. And so it's really difficult to even, even if the back of your, you think it's love bombing, it really feels good. So you're kind of like, oh, I'll, I'll see what happens. I'll see how it goes.
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Dr. Jamie Zuckerman
Okay, but then how do we stop it? And how do we know the difference between somebody who is genuinely just cares and wants to see the relationship grow and somebody who is love bombing us so that they can use us for their benefit?
- [15:51]
Dr. Z
Great question. So if it is, you just connect with this person and it's just a really solid start. It feels a little bit more organic. Whereas with love bombing, it's going to feel like an absolute tidal wave. It's going to be, which could be a whole other discussion. I say this all the time. It's going to be that Disney that does not exist romance. It's going to sweep you off your feet like a tidal wave. Your head's going to be spinning. It's like a crash course. So that's the first difference. The second is I tell people, do your research. And I get yelled at for saying this, but I'm going to say it again because I swear I think it saves lives, what I want people to do. And people always say, I can't believe. Why would you start out a relationship like that? But here's why. One day, just cancel last minute, say you're sick. I know people are listening. What the hell is chugging? Say you're sick. Say you're just exhausted and see what their response is. If you are being loved bombed, and you call and you say, you know what? I really want to see you, but I was up so late last night with a migraine, I'm exhausted. Is there any way we can reschedule it for next week? And the person says, oh, gosh, absolutely. I'm so sorry. Yes, absolutely. Take all the time you need. Let me know when you feel better. Great. But if the person responds with, they just ghost you. Or they call you later on and say, you feeling any better? You feeling any better? Do you think you can do it? Do you think? Or they start an argument with you, or they show up to your door with a dozen roses when you've only been dating for a couple weeks and they've never been to your house. They show up with a dozen roses and medicine and all this stuff for you, which I know people are saying, but that's so sweet, that's so nice. Yes, but they violated your boundaries because you said you didn't feel good. You don't know them that well. I don't know about you, but I don't want someone showing up to my house when I look like crap and I haven't invited them. So there's these little things you can do. Listen for how they talk about their exes. Are they the victim in all of these relationships? If you find yourself saying, oh, my God, this poor woman or this poor guy, he, like, gets the shit under this, like, every single time in these relationships, That's a question. That's a red flag for you. How do they talk to waiters and waitresses? How do they talk to just customer service in general? How do they talk about their friends? Do they have friends when they're listening to you at dinner, Are they asking you the same question over and over again? Like they're interested, but yet every time you're with them, they ask them the same thing so they're not really hearing you. Are they talking about what you're going to name your kids after date number two? Are they asking you if you find yourself listen, there's nothing more refreshing than finding someone that you're able to talk about your vulnerabilities with, right? Even if it's a friend. But if you find yourself early on in these dating situations talking about how your dad left you when you were 2 and how you, you know, your mom was an alcoholic or how you were abused and you try, I mean, whatever the case may be, or how you're really insec about your weight and there are things that you normally wouldn't talk to about somebody to somebody after that one, that's a red flag. And it can get confused with comfortability. It can get confused with I'm really connecting with this person because wouldn't you guess they struggle with their weight too? Or their father left them too? Oh my gosh, this is crazy. And so if you find yourself pulling for that, that's a red flag too. But they're subtle, but you have to.
- [19:27]
Anna Kai
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Dr. Jamie Zuckerman
Length of time, which is obviously kind of an ambiguous term, but I didn't really realize what that meant until I met my husband because I had never really experienced a healthy relationship in an adult way before I met him because it was either like a situationship or I was interested and they were kind of interested but you know, it never really turned into anything or it was a love bombing situation which felt really good at the time. And when I met my husband, I just realized that he would call and text appropriately. He never made me question that he was interested. But he wouldn't text me throughout the day while he was at work because he's busy. He would call me. He's like, hey, I'm on the train going home, just wanted to check in. How's your day? You know, wasn't every day we see each other once or twice a week in the beginning and it just happened very organically. That word you used, which I liked, which prior to that I thought that a man showering me with love and attention and gifts. Oh my gosh, the, the money thing, right? When they shower you with gifts very early on or they say they're going to. I thought that was what I needed to strive for. And, and I have talked about this before, but I think that this, whoever this other woman is, sometimes the other woman saves you. So I remember in my 20s, yes, I went on a date with a guy, one date, and it was only an hour long because he said he had to go get on a call with Asia. I'm sure he had another date to go on. So we met at seven. We had a drink. He was very good looking, very put together. It was, you know, a nice time. And then he texted me after. It was right before the holidays. So I'm like Going away. I'm going back home for a couple weeks. He's going back home for a couple weeks. And he's like, hey, you know, let's meet up after the holidays. I would love to see you again. And I was like, oh my God, this is great. And he would text and it was appropriate. All right. It was nothing was a red flag in the beginning. So we were texting kind of on and off for the two weeks between like Christmas and New Year's. And then right after New Year's, I'm like, sort of excited to see him again. He's like, hey, I just wanted to let you know, like, I didn't think it would be fair to date two people, but I met somebody shortly before I met you and the relationship escalated very quickly. And I don't think it would be fair now to date both of you. So I just want to let you know, like, I really loved getting to know you all that. I was like, oh, okay. I mean, I was disappointed, but I was like, that was so refreshing, right? He's like, but. And I thought this was strange at the time. And it was about to get real weird after. He was like, if it doesn't work out, you'll be the first person I call.
- [24:21]
Dr. Z
Thanks.
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Dr. Jamie Zuckerman
And I remember saying at the time, I was like, okay, well, I said, haha, for both of our sakes, I hope that doesn't happen. And I really meant that, like, sort of underhanded, like, for your sake too, I hope that doesn't happen. Because I would love a boyfriend right now. I would have loved that guy to be you. But my self esteem is not so low that I would ever let myself be the backup. And so that was that. And that, you know, three months goes by and at midnight one night, I get a text from an unknown number and it just goes anna, exclamation point. And I was like, who the hell is this? And then I figure out it's this guy that I went on a date with three months ago. And I was like, oh, he's back. And I just didn't respond because I was like, you can't even say hi, Anna, blah, blah. Just Anna the exclamation point.
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Dr. Z
Because you're supposed to know and accept the urgency.
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Dr. Jamie Zuckerman
Yeah, exactly. I'm supposed to be like, oh my God, thank God you texted me. I have been waiting. And I didn't text back. And then he texted me an hour later and he's like, hey, sorry for the late text. It's, you know, so and so. But I'M in California right now, so I'm three hours behind. Like, let's catch up when I'm back. And I was like, are you delusional? Let's catch up when I'm back. We never. There's nothing to catch up on.
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Dr. Z
Something to catch up on.
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Dr. Jamie Zuckerman
Yeah. So then the next day, he texts me again, and he's like, hey, you know, Then. Then he comes out with the. It's Chad. I just wanted to let you know.
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Dr. Z
I had a great chat.
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Dr. Jamie Zuckerman
I know, right? Thank God I said Chad, because I almost said the man's name. And I was like, don't want to out him. But he was like. Then he came in with a paragraph that he probably should have started with if he actually cared about me. He was like, I wanted to reiterate how much of a great time I had with you a couple months ago, and I would love to see you again. And as I mentioned, things with the Harvard woman didn't work out. I was like, I didn't know she went to Harvard. Like, he never told me about this other woman, but he wanted me to know that he got a Harvard holiday.
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Dr. Z
He got a Harvard. Right, right, right, right.
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Anna Kai
You're up there.
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Dr. Jamie Zuckerman
You're not. Yeah, my NYU ass. So then I don't respond because I was like, this is just so ridiculous. And I was single as hell at the time. Right. It could have been very easy for me to be like. But it wasn't even tempting because I was like, I have worked on my.
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Dr. Z
Because it's, like, so ridiculous at that point.
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Dr. Jamie Zuckerman
It's so ridiculous.
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Dr. Z
Yeah.
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Dr. Jamie Zuckerman
And then he keeps texting every week. One or two texts a week for three months. And then it gets so insane that he. We matched on an app called the League. And on the league, you have 30 days to talk to the person, or else the chat expires, but you can pay to revive the chat. So he goes. And he's like, hey, Anna, just in case you changed your number, I, you know, paid to bring you back from the match cemetery. Kind of creepy. I know. And then he launches into a spiel again.
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Anna Kai
You were so great.
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Dr. Jamie Zuckerman
You were so wonderful. I would love, love to go out again. Blah, blah, blah. Like. And then that doesn't work. Then he texts me again, and he's like, hey, I know. Want to go on a fancy sushi date, verbatim, or purse shopping or puppy shopping. That and that. I was just like, this is insane. And I never blocked him because I was like, this is so entertaining.
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Dr. Z
Yeah. Yeah.
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Dr. Jamie Zuckerman
And I was like, wow. The Harvard woman saved me from a couple months of anguish because you are mentally unstable. So is he a narcissist?
- [27:57]
Dr. Z
So. So I. So I always say I can't tell from one behavior. However, what I will say is that the more you went on with that, the more it became about. Has nothing to do with you. As amazing and wonderful as I think you are, it has nothing to do with you. Right. It actually has nothing to do with Harvard woman. It has to do with. He just wanted to see if he still had access to you, and that was it. And that was all. So it really has nothing to do with the relationship or not. And so one somebody wanting to see if they can continuously still obtain access to your thinking, your thoughts, or, you know, what narcissists like to do a lot is, you know, sabotage meaningful days. So if it's my birthday and you contact me and you know, and you. You don't. It's not about wishing me happy birthday. It's just you want to make sure that if I'm going to have some sort of emotion on my birthday, you want to the one to provide it to me, whether it's happiness, sadness, anger, whatever the case may be. So in this situation, Chad, he just wanted to see if he still had access to you. And you blocked his ability to gain access to you, which is why he kind of started to go off the rails. Because when a narcissist realizes that they can't gain access to you anymore, their behavior starts to kind of unwind a.
- [29:17]
Dr. Jamie Zuckerman
Little bit, and it starts completely unhinged.
- [29:19]
Dr. Z
Yes, exactly. Exactly. Because all it is is about control. Remember, narcissist, this primary function of their behavior, whatever it looks like on the surface, suicide sushi date, purse shopping, you know, read renewing your membership on. On a dating app, all of those things on the surface look one way, but the underlying function of all of them is, I just want to see if I can gain access to you. It's power and control. And that's it.
- [29:44]
Dr. Jamie Zuckerman
Yeah. And it was just so crazy because when he realized he couldn't, he got very desperate and almost angry. And then he blocked me on the dating app.
- [29:53]
Dr. Z
I was just gonna say, he probably blocked you eventually.
- [29:56]
Dr. Jamie Zuckerman
Yes. Yeah, because I. Eventually I went back and looked. I was like, oh, he. We're not matched anymore. I can't even see the messages or anything like that. And I just thought, God bless the woman you marry.
- [30:08]
Dr. Z
Yeah.
- [30:09]
Dr. Jamie Zuckerman
But here's the thing, is that narcissists are walking around. Some of them, we date, some of them are family members. Can we marry a narcissist and be happy and figure out how to make it work?
- [30:21]
Dr. Z
No.
- [30:22]
Dr. Jamie Zuckerman
No, no. Okay.
- [30:24]
Dr. Z
No. So no, no, you can't. I mean, you listen, you can marry a narcissist and be in the relationship and have no boundaries and do whatever you need to do to survive on a daily basis, but you will become a broken down shell of whoever you once were. So can it work? I mean, I think you have to define what work means. If work means losing yourself completely, your values, your opinions, your ideas, your sense of self, then sure. But generally speaking, no, it doesn't. And so when people come to me, you know, who I work with, and, you know, a lot of times they're in different stages. Either they're questioning if who they're with is a narcissist, is my parent a narcissist, or they realize what they're going through and they, they want to figure out how to stay in the relationship, or they want to learn how to get out, or they need to deal with it once they've gotten out, because that's a whole other type of abuse that occurs. But I never tell people to stay or leave unless obviously there's significant abuse going on. What I will tell them is that staying is not what's going to make a narcissistic relationship better, period. If anything, it'll do the opposite.
- [31:30]
Dr. Jamie Zuckerman
But what happens if. Because here's the thing, you can leave a relationship, you can leave a marriage, but you can't leave a parent or a sibling. You had this great kind of like.
- [31:42]
Dr. Z
Illustration on, oh, did I get ripped for that?
- [31:45]
Dr. Jamie Zuckerman
Oh, my God. But I thought it was such a great.
- [31:48]
Dr. Z
Whoa. Let me tell you what I got.
- [31:50]
Dr. Jamie Zuckerman
At the top, right?
- [31:51]
Dr. Z
So it went viral. Yeah, so it went viral in like two days. It was like 3 million views or something. Ridiculous. But let me tell you, you can always tell the people that are most offended by stuff. Like that thing that got. I got ripped for the most was one joking around. I said, I'm leftist and my writing's horrible. My penmanship has been horrible, whether I'm a lefty or righty. You wouldn't believe the number of comments I got on there about don't blame left handers and yeah, it's your fault and you're lazy and you just hate moms. I'm like, wow, we missed the boat on that one. Then I got ripped for the markers I was using anyway, so. Right, I know. So, yeah. So, so often I always say this. We're never dealt our. You know, we get dealt cards and there's nothing we can do about it. We're dealt what we're dealt when we're, when we're. When we're born, and these are our parents or these are our caregivers, and there's very little control we have when we're younger over that. But when you're dealing with a narcissistic parent, majority of the time you don't realize that you're being raised by a narcissistic parent until you are outside of the dysfunction. And it's different than a toxic family, because at least within a toxic family, you know, things are messed up, and people will tell you things are messed up. The difference with a narcissistic, abusive family, whether there's physical, sexual, financial, emotional, all of that stuff going on, there is so much confusion, shame, and doubt that you don't even know what's happening because you're not able to separate yourself from it. Because narcissistic families do such a good job of keeping everything so. So hidden and so under wraps that you don't even know what you're experiencing is abuse. It's your normal. And then once you either go away to college or you leave to get a job or you get married or you have your own kids, hopefully what then starts to happen is you start to have these epiphany moments with a lot of therapy of, holy shit, like, wow, that's bad. Like that, you know? And so with narcissistic parents, the thing that I drew what you're talking about was this example was when you have a mom who's a narcissist. Because I always hear people say, why is it always the guy who's a narcissist? So I did a mom, and then I got, why is it always the mom narcissist? So. So I did a mother narcissist and kind of did a diagram as to what the family dynamics typically will look like when you have a mom narcissist. Female narcissists is particularly mothers. They view their children as accessories. They view them as handbags that they can switch whenever they want. They have different purposes, and when they're serving no purpose, they almost don't exist. And any step a child takes towards autonomy, particularly with a narcissistic mom, it is viewed as abandonment, rejection, embarrassment. How dare you leave me? AKA get married. How dare you leave me. Go to college, have a girlfriend, have a boyfriend. After everything I've sacrificed for you my entire life, you're just gonna leave me? Don't I matter to you? So instead of raising your children to spread their wings and, you know, I always say we raise our children to be little good humans and send them out into the world and hope they're okay. Okay, Right. And even as a parent, I get a pit in my stomach saying that, because I'm like, I kind of just want them to live with me forever. But we know that's sick, and we can't do that. And so they have to fly with a narcissistic mother. That is not her goal. Her goal is to have you be reflections of who she is and who she wants you to be. And if you do anything that deviates from that, you're bad. And so they will find a child within the dynamic that's their, quote, golden child, that they have very high expectations for that can do no wrong, that has no consequences, but only if you do what you're told. If you don't do what you're told, then you're bad. They're very good at painting you as, you know, all good or all bad. And then you have the child that puts the boundaries up, which is what I drew, puts the boundaries up. And then you have Mom. Now, narcissistic mom, who usually is married to a dad who is very. Just is not home a lot, flies under the radar, doesn't want to be bothered. Oh, please, just call your mom. Really? Because she's annoying me, and you're messing up the dynamics, and I don't like it. So what I drew was one son sets the boundary. The boundary is now set with Mom. Mom's not getting what she normally gets. So now mom goes to dad and says, can you please tell so and so to call? You know, he's being so rude to me and so mean to me. So then dad doesn't want to deal with Mom. So dad calls the son and says, can you please call your mother? She's panicked. She's crying. You're hurting her. Don't you know you're hurting her? Her son puts a boundary up to dad. Well, now mom goes to the other kid and says, well, you're the smart one. You've always done everything right. Can't you tell your brother that he's hurting me? So then that brother calls that brother, and that brother puts a boundary, and before you know it, you have all of these family members running circles around each other while mom is here doing absolutely nothing except watching everybody run circles around the chaos she created. And that I wanted to draw because I wanted people to have an objective view of what the chaos looks like in a family system when you have one parent who's a narcissist. Now, does that happen in other types of toxic dynamics? Of course it does. The difference is when brought to the mom's attention, let's just say she has toxic patterns that she grew up with. And you tell mom, mom, you're hurting me, or mom, you're hurting my fiance, you're hurting my marriage. A non narcissistic mother is going to say, that's not. I don't want to do that. I don't want to do that. And I'm not saying change is easy, but there's going to be empathy and remorse. You call out a toxic narcissistic mother on that, she's going to say, why is it always my fault? I never do anything. You left me for your fiance. None of you care about me. I mean, it's going to look very, very different. So that's why I'm saying the behaviors sometimes look the same, but the function is very different with a narcissist, and it's not going to change.
- [37:53]
Dr. Jamie Zuckerman
That's so interesting because I think again, it's like, we can have selfish parents.
- [37:57]
Dr. Z
Yep.
- [37:57]
Dr. Jamie Zuckerman
But that's very different than narcissistic parents because to some degree, I think with the selfishness, there's still a degree of empathy.
- [38:04]
Dr. Z
Yes.
- [38:04]
Dr. Jamie Zuckerman
And a realization like, they may say something really selfish or do something very selfish, but at the end of the day, you give them a couple hours, they're like, shit, I'm so sorry.
- [38:12]
Dr. Z
Correct.
- [38:13]
Dr. Jamie Zuckerman
You know, and with a narcissistic parent, they never come to that realization. It's always, this is what you did, and you did this to hurt me and blah, blah, blah and all that. How do we extricate ourselves from those relationships? Because what if we still love our mothers or fathers that are narcissists? How do we do that?
- [38:31]
Dr. Z
Yeah. So one doesn't necessarily have to do with the other. And this kind of goes back to that whole idea of emotions and behaviors can be two separate things. So, you know, a lot of times it's very confusing to not love a parent. Right. Like, what do you mean? I can't. It's my mom or it's my dad. But you don't have to stop loving somebody in order to set a boundary with them. And so what I always say is, the boundary that you're going to set, have it be something that you're able to walk away from the Scenario feeling more in control and more at peace. Not something that's going to solve the problem because you don't have any control over the other person. Right? All you do. I know it sounds cliche, but all we do, we only have control of ourselves and our responses. But you need to be able to walk away from the situation, even if it's just a short conversation or a text message. What do you need to do to walk away feeling in control and more at peace? And that's the only option that you have when you're in this kind of really icky relationship with a narcissist, because there's no other way except neutral responses to them.
- [39:38]
Dr. Jamie Zuckerman
I have an interesting and kind of controversial opinion that I'm curious to get your thoughts on as an actual therapist. I don't believe that couples who are married, who are not married, who are dating, should go to therapy to resolve issues prior to marriage. If they're. If you're dating a guy and it's that bad prior to marriage, like, I don't really think it's going to get better. Of course, there's a million scenarios out there. And every time I say anything, somebody's like, well, you know, I did. And like, you know, we're fine now. We've been married 10 years. Of course it can happen. But I feel like the general sentiment or what I feel like mostly happens is like one person wants to go to therapy to save a relationship so that they can get to the altar and the other person doesn't. But what is your opinion on couples who go to couples counseling before marriage?
- [40:33]
Dr. Z
So I think, I think it's exactly we said. I think it depends on the reason behind it. If it's that it's. One person wants to try to fix something, but before you get married and the other person's kind of just going along for the ride. I mean, I don't want to put a blanket statement on anything, but chances are the problems you have in the beginning of the relationship are something not going to go away throughout the marriage. And as soon as you add in, you know, joint mortgage payments and children and bills and, you know, got like a. I don't know, your. Your generator is broken. And now, I mean, like all of these things, like this isn't. This doesn't make life easier at all. Throwing money problems, throw them, throwing sickness. But if you have two people, let's say, who come to the table, and let's say they both have really screwed up family backgrounds, right? And they both are on the Same page. In terms of. All right, let's do this right. Let's make sure we hear each other. I know that you get angry when I do X, Y and Z. You knew I do. You know, we together, we want to make it work and we want to come up with some sort of almost like a game plan. So you're going in not trying to, to fix anything or change the other person, but you're going in to come up with almost like an agenda. Like, like honestly, like a game plan. If you're going to go into any type of football game or a tennis match, you're going to have a game plan. I don't necessarily think anything's wrong with having a game plan. And if this play goes this way and this play goes this way, what are some strategies that you can do? But I think that takes two very willing and intense, insightful and open minded people to do that because it's a lot of work, which I just don't think many people do that. I think they're just caught up in the moment and I don't necessarily think it's a bad thing if they do it. But I think to your point, I think going to fix something that's a characterological issue before the marriage, that's probably not going to help at all.
- [42:31]
Anna Kai
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- [43:58]
Dr. Z
Streaming now on Peacock. Paris Hilton and Nicole Richie are back. That's hot. Loves it. For a show stopping reunion that will prove putting on an opera is anything but simple. We're really good at this. One thing's for sure, they won't be upstaged. Good to have you back.
- [44:20]
Anna Kai
Come on, we've got a show to do.
- [44:22]
Dr. Z
The encore, a three part reunion special. Streaming now only on Peacock.
- [44:28]
Dr. Jamie Zuckerman
Yeah, because I think, you know, dating should be the honeymoon phase. Whether you're dating for two years or five years or whatever. I mean, like if you're dating somebody for 10 years and you still can't get them to commit to you, that's a whole other separate issue. But it's like I have been with my husband for six and a half years right now. And like we've been married for two and the first four years before we were married, there was not anything that we needed an outside influence to assist us with because we would just talk to each other when we have issues. And life has inevitably had its challenges, especially over the last four years. Oh my gosh, with the pandemic and everything. But I cannot imagine being with a man where I would need like a third party to decipher our issues. Right? I'm not talking about like 15, 20, 30 years into a marriage. I actually think at that point, I don't know. Right? I don't, I can't.
- [45:24]
Dr. Z
You don't know. And also, here's the thing. Things happen in life, right? And people change. And sometimes the person that you marry isn't the person you signed up for 20 years from then. And that's okay. And that's when people go to therapy and they try to figure out what happened or something happens, it's unexpected, or there's infidelity and you try. There's a million different reasons why people go to therapy. What, what I will say though is kind of, again, to your point, I actually think that you don't even real. And maybe I'm wrong on this, but I don't even think you really know a person until you have an argument with them.
- [45:58]
Dr. Jamie Zuckerman
That's true. Yeah.
- [46:00]
Dr. Z
I, I think it's so important to know how somebody argues in the moment. What do they do? How do they resolve it? How do they speak to you? That is so important. And so if you're going to therapy before that even happens, I, I don't know what you're, I don't know. I, I, my personal opinion is I think you need to fight for. Yeah.
- [46:19]
Dr. Jamie Zuckerman
And just, you know, it's like I, you know the couples that say we never fight, that's amazing. Good for you guys. I mean, I fight with my husband.
- [46:27]
Dr. Z
And we, of course it's not a bad thing.
- [46:29]
Dr. Jamie Zuckerman
Yeah. And I'm actually so glad we fight because I do know couples that are always walking on eggshells around one another. And my girlfriends come to me and we have our girls nights and they're talking about all these issues they have with their boyfriends or their spouses. And I'm like, well, have you guys talked about it? She's like, no, but I can never bring it up with him because he would get so mad.
- [46:49]
Dr. Z
Right?
- [46:50]
Dr. Jamie Zuckerman
And I'm like, oh, I just say what I'm feeling. And look, do I say stupid shit and hurtful shit? Sometimes?
- [46:55]
Dr. Z
Yes, but, but you're human and you'll have remorse and you'll say, I'm sorry. Right?
- [47:01]
Dr. Jamie Zuckerman
And Dave goes, you know, he was like, hey, look, you're at least honest. And with honesty we can go somewhere from there, you know, he's like, sometimes you're a little bit too honest, but.
- [47:13]
Dr. Z
That'S you and that's what makes you you. You know what I'm saying? And there's no ill intention with it. There's no manip. It is if it hurts somebody. You, you, you're genuine in your apology with it. It's not like, well, screw you. That's your problem. If you got hurt, I mean that. And that would be something more of a narcissist would, well, that's your problem. That's not my fault. You're too sensitive.
- [47:32]
Dr. Jamie Zuckerman
Yeah. And I think looking at the 20 year marriage, I think the ones that get divorced later in their marriage, it's because you've had 20 years of unspoken arguments and conversations that build up over time and then you just stop talking to each other because, because you're so afraid of what the other person is going to say and you don't want to deal with it. Where I'm like, I never want to go to bed angry. I don't. That's a very also controversial opinion. Some people really know you should go to bed because everybody's going to wake up in the morning and feel. But I never want to do that because I will just actually not go to bed. If we're arguing, what's your opinion on that? Like, should couples fight it out and just resolve it before they go to bed? Or do they need to be refreshed with a different point of view? Because every time we've gone to bed angry, because I'm just like, I'm tired and whatever. We just pick up where we started the night before.
- [48:22]
Dr. Z
I think it's not so much about resolving it. It's more about. I am a big fan of telling people to sit with their shit and sit with their discomfort. So I sometimes will sooner tell people, I know that you need to resolve this so that you can feel comfortable so that you can go to bed. But if that means pushing the argument toward an a quick result resolution, that isn't really healthy. Or you're just doing it because it feels so uncomfortable. Uncomfortable. I have to get rid of it right now. So let's just make up. But if it's a genuine. Let's talk this through before we go to bed, I think that's amazing. But I don't. If it's to avoid feeling bad before you go to bed. I think sometimes we make bad decisions and sad say bad things if it's just in the service of not wanting to feel icky.
- [49:12]
Dr. Jamie Zuckerman
Yeah. And I think that's. It's like, do you have enough time to really resolve the problem? If you don't, maybe you should just wait until you're both home alone without distractions and can deal with it, because otherwise, then you're not really dealing with the problem.
- [49:29]
Dr. Z
And you also can be angry at somebody and also say, like, I'm gonna go to bed. I love you, and we'll talk about this in the morning. Like, there's. There's a million other ways to handle that. Rather than like, f you, I'm going to bed. It could be, I love you. Let's discuss this in the morning. Give them a kiss on the forehead, you know, and. And be done with it for that. And then regroup in the morning.
- [49:48]
Dr. Jamie Zuckerman
Okay. So this time of year, people are dealing with a lot of complicated family dynamics that may not be their own. You know, if you have a great family, but your boyfriend, his family's a little crazy and you got to see them this time of year. Like, let's say your boyfriend's not a narcissist, but the dad is. We'll use the dad because we've given mom a lot of.
- [50:06]
Dr. Z
Yes.
- [50:06]
Dr. Jamie Zuckerman
You know, a lot of grief on your platform. Let's say your boyfriend's dad is a narcissist and you've been dating for a while and you know how this whole Christmas is going to go and how do we deal with our in laws this time of year?
- [50:20]
Dr. Z
Yeah. So that's a conversation that you have to have with your significant other prior to, because your s significant other and you need to present as a unified front and whoever's family it is kind of needs to be at the forefront of that. So text messages that are sent to just your significant other, they must include you and loop you in. Email sent that you're purposely left up, they must loop you in and include you in. And so you are a unified front. They must set boundaries. If they. If your in laws are speaking to you in a way that is really inconsiderate and you have tried and you have tried and no matter what you do, it doesn't matter, your significant other needs to step in and set that boundary, whatever that boundary looks like. And if they're unwilling to do that, there is nothing wrong with you turning down the invitation. If you do not feel protected, if you do not feel safe, there is nothing wrong with you saying no. Because what I want people to understand is if it is not your family and you're dealing with a narcissist, let's say, of your significant other's parents, you don't have any control over what's going on there. You didn't have control before you got in the picture and you're not going to have control during or after. But what you do have control over is how you choose to respond to it. So things like saying no, things like having a mantra statement that I like, such as, I'm not going to talk about that right now, or not responding to text messages or continuously putting the accountability on your partner. Partner, you need to handle this. I know it's uncomfortable. You need to handle this because remember, what the narcissist is trying to do is more likely than not trying to take control and ownership of the emotions within your marriage. And so you want to make sure that you don't allow them to do that, which is why the neutral responses are so important. So you'd want your significant other to respond neutrally to them. So if they start texting, you know, your wife is this. And then. And then she said this, that you want your spouse to either just not respond at all or respond with dad. I'm not having this discussion right now. So they really want to cause chaos. Like I, you know, we talked about the other example. So your responses need to be a unified front and must be neutral. I like to compare it to a rock climbing wall. You want to give them a sleek marble wall. Well, they. Where they can't grab onto anything. Even if you, if you are short with them or you roll your eyes at them, that's a little crevice they can put their hands in and now make you look like the bad guy. Your wife rolled her eyes at me. I don't think that's appropriate. She's in my house right now. Right. So you really just want to give them nothingness. Right. Which is not the same as ignoring.
- [53:11]
Dr. Jamie Zuckerman
Just do less almost.
- [53:12]
Dr. Z
Yes, yes.
- [53:13]
Dr. Jamie Zuckerman
And I think the unified front is so important because I think so often we let other people influence our relationship that are not in the relationship. And what I always loved about my parents, I'm super close with them. I'm an only child and I always. Woo. We're not all crazy. I mean, I am crazy, but.
- [53:32]
Dr. Z
But we're not like the only child stereotypical.
- [53:35]
Dr. Jamie Zuckerman
Right? Like we have. Right? Yeah. But my parents always said, because I always want them to like the person I'm with when I was dating. And they were like, you should take less stock and how we feel. Because in the end this is your decision and you should never let parents or in laws affect your relationship. Ultimately you are going to form a nuclear family with another person that is not going to include us. And we want you to make that decision. And now my parents are wonderful.
- [54:05]
Dr. Z
That's like the healthiest thing I have ever heard.
- [54:08]
Dr. Jamie Zuckerman
So they would never. And trust me, there were men that I brought home that they did not like. Like they would never tell me in the moment. It was always after we broke up. My mom would be like, he's such an asshole. Like, well, why didn't you tell me?
- [54:19]
Dr. Z
Why didn't you tell me?
- [54:20]
Dr. Jamie Zuckerman
Then she was like, because you were madly in love with him and I didn't want to influence you. But now that it's over, she trusts you. Yeah. And she was like, you know, you had to learn on your own. And obviously, I'm sure that was very hard for her to watch me date people that didn't treat me well. But she was never like, first of all, she was like, you wouldn't have listened to me anyway. Second of all, it's like you would have just resented me for it and so she's like, never let in laws or parents or anything get in between the two of you. And I see when my friends, spouses are not willing to stand up to their parents or to their siblings on behalf of their wife or girlfriend, that's when I'm like, how long is this gonna last? Because we're young enough too. I'm in my mid-30s where we can gloss over things for a little bit still. You know, things are starting to fray at the seams a little bit for people who met early on in their 20s. But you can still get by being unhappy for a While when you're 34 and you're newly married.
- [55:23]
Dr. Z
That's right.
- [55:24]
Dr. Jamie Zuckerman
What's the age that you see most people's relationships hit the fan if it's not built on a solid foundation?
- [55:34]
Dr. Z
I think it depends on when they get married. So people, let's say who get married in their 20, mid-20s. I usually start to see things or people coming into my office or things starting to happen probably around the 10 year mark. I would say 7 to 10 year mark. You know, it really, it really just varies though because so many things could happen. But I'd say if I had to give an average, it would probably be 10 years in.
- [56:01]
Dr. Jamie Zuckerman
Okay.
- [56:02]
Dr. Z
After kids. Yeah, after kids. Kids are kind of like maybe a little like I'd say 10 to. Yeah, 10 is. 10 is years. The kid, there's kids involved usually at that point maybe the, the, the woman is with somebody who stayed home and, and took care of the kids and now wants to get back into the, the workforce. And the husband's like, no, no, no, no, no. Or you know, you see the husband wanting to switch jobs and it just like life events and that they haven't ever experienced together yet. And now when these big shifts are happening in their lives, it's not what they signed up for. Do I usually see it as a result of, of that. Of more life transitions?
- [56:45]
Dr. Jamie Zuckerman
Interesting. What is your opinion on going back to your ex? Not going back to your ex husband? I'm saying in a relationship because people love to throw around the. He always comes back. Right? They always come back, back. I've never gone back to an ex. I don't believe in that. But obviously there are examples of people who've gone back to an ex and it's worked out and people love to say you're wrong. I'm like, I know I'm wrong in a lot of cases, but yeah. So what's your opinion on that?
- [57:15]
Dr. Z
So I think it depends on why you broke up. Right. Was it distance? Was it, you know, long distance thing? Was it you're just in different periods of your life, you're in grad school, the other person's not. You want kids, they don't. I mean, what's. So I think it depends on what the issue was. But again, if the issue was some sort of personality or character logical thing, chances are that it didn't change. It's not going to change. And so you get back together because you haven't been together for so long. So you come back again kind of in that new honeymoonish. I've made changes, I miss you and I keep coming back to you and we try to find this kind of fairy tale thing about that. How, how come we always end up back to each other? Will you come back to each other because you're both bored. Right. Or, you know, you're lonely or whatever the case may be. But when it's a character logical thing like that, or a personality thing like that, or that's not going to change. So eventually it's going to end again. So I think for those reasons, if you're getting back together, I don't think it's a smart idea. I think it's a waste of time. I think it's, it's just wasting, wasting energy. Emotional, physical energy you can put towards things that you enjoy or put towards dating. Right. Somebody healthier for you. I think you also need to ask yourself, when do they appear to come back? Is there a pattern to it? Why do they appear to come back? Is there a pattern to it? And you know, and look at it from a behavioral standpoint, not an emotional standpoint because your emotions will get you every time. So look at it from a behavioral standpoint. And truly, if it's a logistical thing, somebody was long distance. Now they're back in the same state as you. You. And you want to make it work. Great. But if it's, if nothing really has shifted except time, that's different, then you.
- [59:04]
Dr. Jamie Zuckerman
Probably shouldn't go back. Yeah, I mean, the answer is complicated. I just. Sometimes I think women in particular go back because there's nothing else going on.
- [59:13]
Dr. Z
And it's comfortable and it's familiar.
- [59:15]
Dr. Jamie Zuckerman
Yes. And you know, comfort lulls you into a dangerous tranquility. It's very, very dangerous to think that just because something is familiar, it means it's right for you. Because we get attached to really bad behavior and it's like, well, at least I know how to manage this.
- [59:31]
Dr. Z
Well, I was gonna say, you're an expert at that pattern of bad behavior, and your brain knows what to predict next. And when our brains can predict what comes next, we're naturally less anxious. So it feels calming. But it's calming because your brain knows what to predict, knows what's coming next, not necessarily because the anxiety. The situation itself doesn't have anxiety in it, if that make sense. So sometimes we confuse the two.
- [59:57]
Dr. Jamie Zuckerman
Yeah. So let's say we've broken up. And I think the worst part about a breakup actually is the feeling worthless after it. It's never. I remember my last breakup before I met my husband. I didn't feel good, but I actually was okay because I just realized I had value outside of my relationship with a man who just dumped me. So for the people who are just breaking up, and also, this is a tough time of year to break up with somebody. For the people who just got dumped by the love of their life, what are some actionable steps they can take to feel valuable and like a worthy human again?
- [60:37]
Dr. Z
Yeah, I think it's important to sit with the shittiness. Unfortunately, you can't rush that. I think it's important to understand that you're human and that. But this is what happens. This is what happens when breakups happen and everything you're feeling is okay and not bad, but the most important thing is not permanent. That I promise you, as bad as it may feel, it is temporary. It will get better, and it's going to get better without you realizing. So, you know, for those of you who are experiencing this, who are going through this, you're not alone. You've been here before. I know this time is worse. But you will be okay. And to find value outside of that, you want to take it really slow. Because, listen, it's really hard when you're heartbroken to go out with all of your girlfriends to go have a girl's day, because as much as you're surrounded by your friends, you still feel very lonely. So you want to maybe find one person that you can be your vulnerable self with and maybe, you know, have them come over. Maybe you don't feel like going out. I'm a big fan of breaking down plans and behaviors into tiny, almost insultingly small steps, Right? Even if it just means someone's going to come over and they're just going to drop a bottle of wine off and say, I'm not going to talk to you. Here you go. Call me when you feel like it. Or just send you a text message, hey, I'm here. You don't have to write me back. So just these little things to make you realize you're still connected to people outside of this bubble that you are in. And then you slowly start to bring yourself back out. Because, listen, people will say, well, why don't you go back to the gym? Or why don't you, you know, go shopping? You don't want to do any of that. You just want to cry. Try, Right? So I think it's important to acknowledge that you don't have to do anything big. You can just sit, watch TV with your best friend and just sit there, and then the next day, maybe you'll do one thing more, and the next day, one thing more. I think we try to rush breakups because they feel so horrible, which I get, but it just doesn't work like that.
- [62:35]
Dr. Jamie Zuckerman
I love that. Take small, almost insultingly small steps. Whatever you're going through, you know, whether it's a breakup or whether it's something in your professional life or anything, just take a step, no matter how tiny it may be.
- [62:49]
Dr. Z
Yeah.
- [62:49]
Dr. Jamie Zuckerman
Thank you so much for being here today, Dr. Z. So where can everyone find you and your infinite wisdom?
- [62:56]
Dr. Z
Sure. Thank you so much for having me. I told you I was so excited for this. I adore you. I think you're brilliant and hilarious, and I get all my makeup advice from you.
- [63:07]
Dr. Jamie Zuckerman
I'm glad.
- [63:09]
Dr. Z
So you can find me at Dr. Jamie zuckerman.com and my Instagram is Dr. Period Z underscore psychologist. Just put in Dr. Z psychologist and you'll find it. And my podcast is next up, Narcissism, where we talk all about narcissism, have guests on talk about narcissism. It's super informative. And I have courses, workshops, all that stuff on my website at Dr. Jamie Zuckerman.
- [63:35]
Dr. Jamie Zuckerman
Awesome. Go follow Dr. Z. Thank you so much.
- [63:38]
Dr. Z
Thank you.