← Brutally Anna
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- [00:00]
A
Work management platforms. Ugh. Endless onboarding. IT bottlenecks admin requests. But what if things were different? Monday.com is different. No lengthy onboarding, beautiful reports in minutes, custom workflows you can build on your own, easy to use prompt, free AI. Huh. Turns out you can love a work management platform. Monday.com, the first work platform you'll you'll love to use. Ryan Reynolds here from Mint Mobile. I don't know if you knew this, but anyone can get the same Premium Wireless for $15 a month plan that I've been enjoying. It's not just for celebrities. So do like I did and have one of your assistant's assistants switch you to Mint Mobile today. I'm told it's super easy to do@mintmobile.com Switch upfront payment of $45 for 3 month plan equivalent to $15 per month Required intro rate first 3 months only, then full price plan options available, taxes and fees, extra fee, full terms at.
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B
Mintmobile do Welcome to Brutally Anna, a podcast about finding love, losing love, and all the things we think about but don't talk about enough. I'm your host, Anna Cai, AKA maybe both across social media, here to remind you that life can be beautiful even when it's freaking brutal. My guest today, Joanne Lee Molinaro, not only knows how to wear many hats, but also how to wear them well. While Joanne may be known to most of her nearly 5 million followers as the Korean Vegan, across her social channels, she was also a seasoned trial lawyer and part at a law firm specializing in bankruptcy and litigating claims disputes in some of the largest Ponzi scheme bankruptcy cases in the United States. And if that wasn't enough, Joanne's 2021 cookbook, the Korean Vegan, was named as one of the New York Times best cookbooks of 2021 and won the James Beard foundation for Vegetable Focus Cooking in 2022 award. Here to remind us all that you can actually have it all is Joanne. Thank you so much for being here today. We talked about a little, we talked about this a little when you first came in. But do you sleep?
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A
Yes, I run a lot. I'm a marathon runner and sleeping is a very integral component of being a successful runner. So yes, I sleep at least seven hours a night.
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B
Okay, that's very aspirational. So you're the daughter of Korean immigrants and specifically North Korean immigrants who escaped present day North Korean when they were young. Can you tell me a little bit about how you grew up?
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A
Yeah, well, I grew up. That sounds so Dramatic. And I grew up so undramatically. I, you know, was born in Chicago and we moved to Skokie, Illinois, small suburb of Chicago. And I grew up there. And it was very Leave it to Beaver, you know, just like staring out the front window of our home and imagining the lives of all the other kids who lived in my neighborhood, learning to ride my bicycle in my backyard and playing hide and seek and tag and, you know, going to the swing sets with my grandma and, you know, running errands with her and stuff like that. So it was very, very. It was a very picturesque childhood. I had a lovely childhood.
- [03:11]
B
Did you feel like you belonged because you were an immigrant kid in presumably not a super Korean area?
- [03:18]
A
You know, surprisingly, Skokie is actually very diverse. So there were a lot of Asian American families, immigrant families around me. I do remember though, I grew up speaking Korean. That was my first language because my grandmother's raised me. My mother was working professional. My father worked at night. And he was also quite taciturn. Just very typical of Korean fathers and.
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B
All Asian fathers in general, by the way.
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A
But yes, I have met verbose Asian fathers, but my father certainly isn't one of them. And my grandmothers raised me. And because they didn't speak English, I didn't speak English for the first few years of my life. And so when I showed up to kindergarten and everyone was speaking. This is funny, I used to call it the Dominick's language, which you would only really understand the reference if you grew up in the Chicago area. Because there was this grocery chain called Dominick's. And anytime my parents went to Dominic's, they would speak this language that I didn't understand, you know, and I. So I called it the Dominick's language. So I show up to kindergarten and everyone's speaking the Dominicks language. And I'm like, I don't know the Dominick's language. And I, yes, in that moment, I felt severely like I didn't belong. And there were other idiosyncratic moments throughout those very first few formative years where I felt like, you know, whether it was the food that I ate or the clothes that I wore, obviously the language I spoke, even my appearance made me feel a little bit like I was on the outside looking in and that I would never quite belong.
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B
So how did you get over that? Did you end up finding a group of people that made you feel like you belonged, or did you just leave high school feeling like you didn't belong and then tried to figure it out.
- [04:58]
A
In your Adulthood, I think belonging is such an, you know, it's not a black and white concept. You can feel like you belong in one sense and feel like you don't belong in other senses. Right. So in answer to your question, you know, from first through fifth grade, like I said, I lived in a very diverse neighborhood. There were other Asian immigrant families, and yes, I tended to befriend those. I had a friend named Sally, she was my best friend, and she was also Korean American. I had a friend named Tracy, Japanese American, Linda, she was Vietnamese American. And we kind of formed this very tight knit friendship at that time. But also, like, I felt like I didn't belong because I was, you know, much more musically inclined and artistically inclined and creatively inclined, as opposed to, you know, being the best at math, although I was good at that too. But you know what I mean, like, there are other areas that made me feel like I didn't belong, but there, at least I was like, okay, I have another friend who understands what kimbap is, which is, you know, very Korean food or kimchi. And, you know, she speaks Korean at home and things like that. So, you know, in that way, yes, I did. But, you know, growing up, you know, in high school and later in college, it was a constant excavation of finding out what belonging meant and how valuable it ultimately was to me.
- [06:23]
B
So what does it mean for you now?
- [06:25]
A
I think a sense of belonging is a going back to family. For me, that is like the most important thing. And I know that that's not true for everyone because not everyone is born into the kind of family that I was born into. I'm very lucky and I'm very grateful. But I also think that belonging more fundamentally is about having confidence in who you are and knowing who you are first, because you create your own circle. And of course you are going to belong to that circle because you created it. And you can really only do that once you have a certain footing on your identity.
- [07:07]
B
It's interesting to me that you said that you were much more creatively inclined as a kid because then you went on to become a lawyer, which, look, isn't science or math or anything in that arena, but it's not necessarily like singing and dancing and putting on plays. So what made you want to become a lawyer?
- [07:25]
A
I didn't want to become a lawyer. I wanted to be a singer. I wanted to be on Broadway. And my parents know this and they tried to, like, literally wring it out of me. It's so ironic because of course I started singing and Playing piano at their encouragement when I was 3, 4 years old. And you know, music was always such a huge part of my life. I get that from my father's side. My father is very musically inclined. One of my aunts on my father's side, my Komo, she was a professional singer in Korea back in the day. So that was always such a huge thing in my life. And I thought I would make a career out of it, but my parents were like, absolutely not. We're not gonna pay for your college education if you decide to pursue that. So I took English as my major in college. That was sort of like my compromise. I love to write, I love poetry, which I get from my mother, she's a published poet. So it's interesting. Both my parents are very artistically and creatively inclined, but both chose profess that were, quote, responsible, which I understand given everything they went through during the war and their lives. And I think I inherited their anxiety. Like their really intense anxiety about poverty and homelessness, which at the time I didn't understand quite fully where that came from. But it was such a visceral feeling, like, oh, I have to have a steady paycheck and I have to have a good job and security. And I remember I graduated a year early from college, which I think partly exacerbated that anxiety. And I was like, oh my God, I have to be an adult. Like, I have to do like insurance and stuff. And I was like, I don't know what that even is. And so I graduated with an English degree, which everybody knows gets you nothing. And so I was like, okay, well, what do I do next? And I became very much my parents daughter, as in, I have to stifle all of my creative ambitions. And I have three choices. I could go to business school, law school, or medical school, which so ironic.
- [09:27]
B
You were such a good Asian daughter.
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A
But I came around to it because they were always trying to get me to do that. And I was like, no, I'm going to be a singer, but.
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B
And then you realized you had bills to pay.
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A
Exactly, exactly. And so I chose law. It was like process of elimination.
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B
Okay. Did you like it?
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A
I loved law school. I'm. You know, I think my. My mom always knew. Maybe she was like, you should be a lawyer because you're so disobed. You're always fighting.
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B
And you're a trial lawyer too, so that means you're actually in the courtroom literally arguing.
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A
I might. I'm arguing all the time at my job. I was literally, whether it was in an Email, a letter, a motion, a brief, or in court. I'm always arguing.
- [10:08]
B
But you're so well spoken. And I think that's maybe what it comes. Were you always this well spoken, even in your early 20s when you first started out?
- [10:15]
A
No. When I see some of the people, especially, you know, creators, even politicians, young politicians, I see how well spoken they are. I'm like, oh, my God, I was like a raging idiot at that age.
- [10:26]
B
That is funny. Cause I listen to your content now, and it's like, even your vocabulary. I'm like, I have to read more. How do I get to this level of just. Just the way you convey your thoughts is just so succinct, but it's also so eloquent. And so I attribute that to your law degree and just you having to probably be very argumentative and prove your point in a really high pressure setting. Like, I don't. I know you struggled with mental health, but I'm like, that would just give me anxiety.
- [10:53]
A
Oh, of course.
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B
Yeah. So you just decided to put yourself in those positions day in and day out?
- [10:59]
A
Yes, but I found it more fun than the alternative. And also, I mean, thank you for your very kind words. And I could turn it right back at you. Your monologues are always very succinct, but very persuasive and compelling. And I think doing it within a certain framework, whether it's in the courtroom or in front of a judge or, you know, with a jury or with millions of your followers, there's like a. There's an art to trying to figure out, how can I convey this in a way that's impactful and that can change people's hearts. That was my job. Right? It was to change people's minds about whatever they were thinking. And, you know, I. I tried for, like, you know, two minutes to be a transactional attorney, which is, you know, less in the courtroom, less arguing, and a different kind of fighting. And while I found it somewhat stimulating because I am analytical by nature, I was like, this isn't fun.
- [11:56]
B
Right?
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A
Like, I want to be arguing a point.
- [12:00]
B
You're like, I want to elevate my blood pressure.
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A
Yeah, there's something, you know, fun about that to a point. But it is like, every time before, like a large argument, I'd be like, why did I choose this? Why am I doing this as my job? What am I signing up for?
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B
And you did it for so long, so you just kind of got used to that, I imagine, towards the end.
- [12:19]
A
I don't think I ever get used to It. I never did. There are probably some lawyers who are like, ah, yeah, I could walk into a courtroom and just, you know, wing it. I never could. I'm again, my parents daughter. I over prepare. And that is how I cope with the anxiety. There's no reduction of anxiety. It's more just like, well, how do I beat it down?
- [12:40]
B
You're the duck metaphor. You know how they say when ducks, you see them on a pond, they look so calm and they're just gliding, but underneath they're about to faint. About to faint. Yeah. I feel like that's me to an extent too, but I very much, you know, can feel that. So you went Vegan in early 2016. Did I get that right?
- [12:59]
A
Yes.
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B
Okay. And I love how honest you were about why you started because you said in an interview, I'm gonna quote you, I decided to adopt a vegan diet because I thought it would help me lose weight and keep me from getting dumped by my then vegan boyfriend. And thank you for saying that because I went vegan actually too, for 10 months also in 2016, because I was dating a guy who was vegan. We didn't get to the point where he was my boyfriend. It was a situationship, but he was very much vegan. And I adopted it because first I was like, I just want to absorb you. Right. I'm just gonna become you in hopes that you will not leave me. But then he did leave me, and I just decided to keep it up because I was living in New York City and it's very easy to be a vegan in a major city, and I actually liked it. I went back to eating meat, so I'm no longer vegan. But you decided to keep up with it. Why?
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A
Well, I think there are a lot of reasons, some of which are underpinned by, you know, I say it in this sort of funny but very, you know, brutally honest way, which is, yes, it was because my then boyfriend was like, I'm vegan. And I could sense, like, it would mean something if I joined him. And also I was like, well, I'll probably just lose weight, you know, But I think that there was also a part of me that's like, well, you know, health wise, this is a good decision. More importantly, the environment that started to grow heavy for me, like, what is my obligation as a human being? Is there something small but impactful that I can do in my personal life that will at least mitigate the damage that I'm causing by just being alive? And then finally, I've always Loved animals. I've always loved animals, like, to the point where, like, it hurts me how much I love them. And so once I had made this decision, which was driven again, very intellectually, health, my boyfriend all up here. And then at a certain point, the feeling I got of knowing that, oh, finally, this love I've had in my heart for my dogs and pigs and cows and chickens, I can do it with my whole heart and I don't have to reserve any of it for eating them. That feeling was so liberating and so addictive. I was. I never want to let go of this feeling, ever. I don't care who I'm dating, what happens with Anthony. I love this feeling more than anything in the whole wide world. And you know what, like you said, I lived in Chicago. It's not that hard to keep that feeling.
- [15:29]
B
Exactly. Because even if you don't want to cook, there is no shortage of vegan places or places with vegan options. It's much. I found it is harder to even eat vegetarian now that I live in the suburbs because you just have less options. And especially on those weeknights when you go out to dinner at a sit down restaurant, they typically now have vegan or vegetarian options. But takeout food is still tough if you're not in a major city. So you've used your blog to not only write about your recipes, but talk about just womanhood in general and what everybody struggles with. And you talk about body image and disordered eating. Did you feel like you had a bad relationship with food when you were younger? And what has your relationship with your body?
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A
Like, that's a great question. I did not realize I had a dysfunctional relationship with food until much later in my life. Probably when I was a young adult growing up, I just thought that was normal. Like, I thought it was normal to hate my body. And I thought it was normal to hate, like, love food but be afraid of it, you know, And I thought, I thought it was normal that everybody's mom told them that they had to lose 10 pounds, you know, like, I just didn't question it. I started questioning it probably in college when I gained a lot of weight. You know, the guardrails were off. There was American food everywhere. I was like, oh, I could eat French fries for breakfast, lunch and dinner. You know, no one's gonna.
- [16:59]
B
You went ham on the ice cream bar in my college cafeteria. I gained 11 pounds just from eating my fill of ice cream. Cause at home my mom was like, no sugar, no sugar. And I was like, I Am. And then I realized what that freedom meant, and I was like, I should not have ever been given this freedom.
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A
I mean, it's. You know, these foods are addictive.
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B
They're.
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A
They are addictive. And, you know, cigarettes are addictive. Drugs are addictive. While sugar can be addictive, fat can be addictive. Fried foods. And partially because of the emotional deficiency that we walk into these circumstances with, and for at least a short, you know, intense 7, 10, 15, 20 minutes, a plate of French fries can do a world of good for you when you feel so isolated and alone.
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B
It's therapy.
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A
It's totally. It's not the healthiest therapy. I think there's a place for comfort food, certainly, but it can be done in excess. And when that happens. I gained 35 pounds in college. And then the, you know, slight, hey, you should lose ten pounds, which I'd heard literally since I was, like, six years old, turned into, you can't eat your birthday cake. You can't come with us to Korea. We're ashamed of you. And then I knew. I was like, this is not normal. And that's when I realized, oh, I have a very long history of lots of very complicated feelings about food, my body, and my family.
- [18:23]
B
So how did you overcome these feelings, and how has your relationship with food changed since then?
- [18:30]
A
I think overcome is probably too strong a word.
- [18:35]
B
It's a process of overcoming, I think, or an undoing.
- [18:38]
A
Maybe a little bit of an undoing or relearning and also kind of understanding. Humans are imperfect beings. My parents were imperfect in the way that they sort of ingrained me with these feelings. But also, I'm imperfect. I will never in my life, I don't think I will ever cure my eating disorder. I think of it more like an addiction. It is an addiction. Restrictive eating is an addiction. And it's more just like, well, how do I learn to navigate this world knowing I have that propensity that it's always there? And I think that's the best that I can do, and that's okay. There are some people who have cured their eating disorders, and I'm very happy for them. I'm never gonna be one of those persons. I'm 45, and it's still as dangerous and pernicious as it was 10, 15 years ago, despite therapy and all sorts of things. Right. I think there are two things that have helped me, though, to really center my understanding of this disorder. Number one was going vegan. All of a sudden, food was no longer just calories in calories out it was no longer just about, well, how is it going to affect my appearance? And in my mind, my lovability. Right. It was also an act of activism. I am doing something that advocates this planet and that advocates animals with every plate of food that I create and that I consume. So that helped. Did it make it perfect? No, of course not. Because it was still a form of restriction, and it was like a little bit of, like a crutch. Right. I think the other thing that helped massively was running. When I started marathon running, then it was like, okay, you have to eat. Like, you literally have to eat. If you starve yourself and you try to run 18 miles, you will keel over and it will be very unpleasant. It doesn't feel good, and it doesn't look good, and it's not a good thing. And when I started marathon running, I had to eat. And I developed a much more, again, intellectually driven approach to food that curbs some of my proclivities, doesn't remove them, but at least helps with them.
- [20:49]
B
I like that because I think it's so hard to get down. It's so easy to get down on ourselves when we don't cure whatever it is we're working on. But if you think of it like, you know, if you're a drug addict, most drug addicts will say, I'm always gonna be an addict in recovery. And to some extent, you are always going to be an addict in recovery, and it's just about managing it and not trying to deny it.
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A
Exactly.
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B
So switching gears a little, you're now happily married to your husband Anthony. However, you were married once, right out of law school, to your ex husband, who, correct me if any of these facts are wrong. But you met at 18, right?
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A
No, I met him when I was, like, five or six.
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B
Oh, you met him at. Oh, God, yeah.
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A
Okay, I've known. I've known him, like, all life, childhood, whatever.
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B
Okay, so you married at 26. All right, and then you divorced when you were 35. Okay, so that I got right in the archives of your blog. I read this entire thing, and I hope you guys can all find this. You wrote a post titled that Time I Googled how to Stop Crying, and it details the abuse, mostly psychological abuse you endured during that relationship and the aftermath of your divorce. Everybody just paused this podcast. It's the only time I will encourage you to stop listening to me and go and find this. You have to. It's very weird. You have to go to her Wikipedia page. Click on, you know, the footnote and then go to the cached version of her blog to find it.
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A
Wow, you dug deep.
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B
It's stunning, though. I was like, this is the most eloquent and heartbreaking story ever. And, you know, you tell the story of how you really got out of that abusive relationship that lasted for such a long time. For people who want the abbreviated version of their story, can you tell me about how your relationship started with your husband, given that you met him so young? And why did you think he was gonna be your forever person? Because they always say you never go into a marriage thinking you're gonna get divorced.
- [22:45]
A
Yeah. Yeah. Well, I met him when I was very young. Our friends were family. You know, our family. Families were friends. And I started having a crush on him when I was probably 13, 14 years old. And I'm an intense person. When I crush on someone, I give them my whole heart. And I gave him my whole heart when I was 14. And I never took it back, not even after the divorce. There's a part of me that will love him forever. And so to your final question. I think I'll always love him because that's what first loves are. It's just this. The bottom falls out, and you happily fall into that abyss. And a lot of the times it turns out great. And that abyss is beautiful, and it creates other abysses. Children, families, lives. But I discovered very quickly, and maybe it was because he himself was subjected to abuse. He had this side to him. It was like a Dr. Jekyll, Mr. Hyde. Like, he just. Or I don't. Mr. Hyde, Dr. Jekyll. I never know which one. When he got angry, he turned into this other person. And we would talk about it, and he would just say, when I'm mad at you, I just. All I wanna do is hurt you. And it was very obvious. And I'm a very sensitive person. I get hurt easily. And he knew that. And he took advant, and I just. But I loved him so much. And I was like, he's my life. He's everything to me. And I. I couldn't imagine my life without him. But it became so clear. I mean, I'm a smart person, I like to think, and I was always that girl who would watch Oprah and be like, leave him, leave him, you stupid, stupid woman. But we can never take our own advice. Yes.
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B
Right.
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A
We can't. We can't.
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B
It's like, do as I say, not as I do. Yes.
- [24:41]
A
And also, like, nobody prepared me for falling in love with a man who would hurt me all the Time. Nobody prepares you for. Your mom certainly does. My mom was the one who was like, why the f are you marrying this guy? Please don't marry him.
- [24:52]
B
Really?
- [24:53]
A
Oh, yeah. They sent me. They gave me a car. In Korean culture, on New Year's Day, you always eat ddukguk, which is a rice cake soup, right? And I was so excited to eat takg at my parents house. This is the year I was getting married. So four months before my wedding. And they're like, okay, Joanne, come over for tteok. I get over there and there's a huge bowl of ddukg between us. And then they slide over a Hallmark card, a pink Hallmark card. And I'm thinking, oh, am I getting money this year? It's been years since we've done that, but I'll gladly take some money my wedding year. And I open the card, and it's this very heartfelt plea by my parents, please don't go through with your wedding. We know this guy is not good for you. And I was so incensed, I was hiding.
- [25:39]
B
How dare you?
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A
How dare you? Four months before my wedding. You're gonna do this? I love this man, and that is all I need. And I said that so many times. And this will reveal how different my parents are. My father, who always capitulates, anytime I start to raise my voice, he goes, oh, you right. Love is the most important, you know? But my mom, she didn't say a thing. And I could read her thoughts without her saying anything. I knew she was saying, love is not enough. Love is never enough. But I was 25, 26. I was like, no, no, love is enough. But of course, even in my heart, I think the reason I got so mad is because I knew they were right. And I just didn't want to believe it. I didn't want to hear it. I didn't want to believe it. Nothing was going to stand between me and this first love. And I tried so hard. I gave everything that I gave everything. Until I realized his poison was poisoning me. And it was making me believe I was not a good person. That's when I realized, this is not okay.
- [26:45]
B
You were being gaslit before we even had a term for it.
- [26:48]
A
Oh, yeah, I.
- [26:48]
B
Psychological manipulation.
- [26:50]
A
Exactly. He made me think I was a bad person. Like, I would literally tell my girlfriends who were trying to defend me, like, no, I'm wrong. I'm the bad person. I deserve this.
- [27:02]
B
But it's so much easier to say I'm the bad person, because then I can change myself versus you're the bad person. Or maybe, you know, good and bad is obviously kind of reductive in this situation. But it's like if he's the one fucking up, I can't control if he wants to change. But if I can change how I am and diminish myself enough, then maybe I'll get what I want. And in essence, you kind of dwindle down to nothing. Cause you're just always walking on eggshells trying to make sure that what you do doesn't, you know, set off a bomb in your house. Do you remember? Cause I assume at one point it was a healthy relationship. Maybe it was 19, 20, or whatever. Okay, because you, you can't just come out the gate like fighting and what, There's a honeymoon phase, or at least there's a phase at which everybody thinks this is on the right track. Was there a clear delineation between the before and after? Or was it slow and steady? Like just one day he got mad at you when you were and you were like, oh, easy enough to kind of brush off, as we all do. And then it just became more of a repeated pattern. Let's face it, weight loss can feel overwhelming. But thankfully hers is here to help by providing access to GLP1 medications plus expert care. They make your weight loss goals easier to achieve with prescriptions delivered straight to your door. Because losing weight is enough of a challenge without having to make an extra stop on your weekly errand run. HERS offers a holistic weight loss program personalized to your needs and includes medications like compounded GLP1 weekly injections, which feature the same active ingredient as Ozempic and Wacov. It's easy to start. You just submit an online intake form and a licensed medical provider will determine what plan is best for you. Your prescription program includes medication, ongoing care and online Support, all at one low cost starting at $165 per month with a 12 month month plan paid upfront for new subscribers, no hidden fees and no membership fees. Start your initial free online Visit today at Fourhers.com brutallyanna that's F O-R-H-E-R-S.com brutallyanna for your personalized weight loss treatment options. Forhers.com brutallyanna hers weight loss is not available everywhere. Compounded products are not FDA approved or verified for safety, effectiveness or quality. Prescription required restrictions apply. Wacov and Ozempic are not compounded. Actual price depends on product and plan purchased. While some people like to unwind at the end of the night to their favorite Netflix show I like to unwind by opening my favorite app, the Redfin app. Because for the last year and a half, Dave and I have been searching high and low in this crazy real estate market for our forever home. And I am so happy to report that we found it finally via Redfin. We'll be moving in a few short weeks. And it's all thanks to my love affair with Redfin and their easy to use app. The first step in finding our forever home was using Redfin's open house search feature that lists all the open houses in our area for the upcoming weekend. We walked into this house's open house and voila, made an offer. And here we are. So whether you're looking to buy or rent your next place, you need the Redfin app. Redfin makes it fun to search all the homes and apartments in your neighborhood. And if you find a place you love, Redfin makes it easy to go see it in person. Just schedule a tour right from the app. Plus, if you're looking to sell, Redfin agents know how to get you the best price possible. Because they close twice as many deals as other agents. And with a listing fee as low as 1%, Redfin's fees are half of what others often charge. So whether you're looking to buy, rent, or sell, download the Redfin app to get started.
- [30:42]
A
He was my first boyfriend. Cause I loved him since I was 14, so I didn't know what healthy, not healthy, normal, not normal looked like. All I had was him and television and rom coms, right? So I didn't. And my parents, who were not a good model of healthy behavior in the least when it came to that sort of thing. So I think the problem was, I remember, like, really almost within the first month of us dating, like, he said something while we were eating lunch that I found a little off. I remember I wrote about it in my diary, and I was like, this doesn't. This is not good. And it devolved into a big fight. And I remember after that, we fought every single week for like, 10 years.
- [31:30]
B
Oh, my gosh. There was one fight a week.
- [31:32]
A
Oh, like a week. I think it, like, slowed down to once a month at a certain point. But I wrote everything down in my journal at that time. And I remember, like, oh, we had one fight this week. I mean, we just fight all the time. And, you know, it's hard for me to grapple with the word abuse. I know that in the end, his anger changed me. And I think that that only happens when it's as toxic as abuse. But I also know that I was young, I didn't know how to do relationships, and I probably made all sorts of mistakes that triggered him. And I know I'm sounding like that wife who's like, no, it was my fault, but, like, you're trying to take.
- [32:19]
B
Responsibility for what you can take responsibility for because it's never. Usually one person is not to blame for everything.
- [32:27]
A
Exactly. And I think that we were both young and we both didn't know how to handle our very, very large emotions. And his, unfortunately, exploded in a way that caused me irreparable damage, damage that I finally managed to extricate from. But that's not to say that there weren't points where I could have probably just been cooler or more mature. I had severe separation anxiety. I was like, never wanted to let him out of my sight. I was like, you can't hang out with your boyfriends. No, you have to be with me all the time. You know, stuff like that, but I think you did.
- [33:00]
B
I mean, my theory on why women do that, and I have felt the exact same way in other relationships, is that we do that because we know they don't want to be there for us. And so it's like with my husband, when I first started dating him, I was like, go, do what you need to do. Because I know at the end of the day, if I need you, you'll be there. I think almost when the relationship is a little bit more tenuous, you feel like you have to hold onto it more because it's not a given. And that's how you know it's the wrong relationship. But when you're younger, you think love takes work. You hear that all the time, and you think, well, I need to put in the work I need. It's a compromise. Everything's a compromise. And women especially, I think, end up compromising themselves. Whereas, like, men don't, you know, they're not really taught. That is like, most of the time, I feel like, especially when we were growing up, I think it's so different for Gen Z these days. I'm like, you guys are so lucky in the sense that you have all this dialogue around you about the fact that you don't have to just fit into a man's life. But especially when we were growing up, it's like, most of the women that I saw who were older, they were just ancillary characters to their husband's eyes. And I knew I never wanted that. But then I didn't know what else there was. I was like, how do you have a happy marriage? Right.
- [34:07]
A
I think you. You said is so true. I felt all of those things to my core. I just kept telling myself, love is hard. Love is compromise. I have. I'm the one who needs to see a therapist because I need to change my fucked up behavior. I'm the one who's selfish, and I'm the one who, you know, needs to change my personality and be stronger and tougher and be less needy. Be less needy.
- [34:30]
B
I can need less. I actually literally said that to an ex while he was, like, literally dumping me. I was like, don't leave me. I will call you and text you less. I'll be, you know, I'll be less me. I mean, it was actually insane. But you're just so devastated in that moment. You're just like, whatever you need. I will basically not be in a relationship with you if you say you won't leave me. Right?
- [34:51]
A
Why do you. Why do you think? What is it that you feared so.
- [34:55]
B
Much about being left so that at that moment, I dated a guy my senior year of college. And at the time, I was also like you. Growing up, I was very creatively. I was not good at math or science, and I did not choose a practical path out of college. And I knew that. I also graduated a year early. And I knew I was about to go get a ton of gig work and try and be an actress in New York City, which is incredibly unstable. And I had this great Jewish boyfriend. And I was like, I'm gonna be a Jewish man's wife. That was my identity. I was like, even if I don't become an actress, at least I know I'll be a Jewish man's wife. I was willing to convert for him because. Because he said that that was really important to him. But then he ultimately, I think, left me. And I don't actually even blame him for leaving me because we were 21. He wanted to find a woman who was born Jewish, which I actually don't think there's anything wrong with that. He was trying to figure it out too. You know, we're all collateral damage in each other's stories. So I don't blame him for that at all, but because he was all I had. My identity up until that point had been a high school student and college student. And now I was about to go become a failure for the next 10. In a good way, you know, I'm happy where I ended up. I really did not want him to leave me because I felt like I had nothing. And in actuality I had an auntie say this to me as I called her crying. And I was like, oh, my God, my life is over. You know, my ex left me and she was like, anna, your life isn't over. Your life is just beginning. You know? And it really was true. It opened up so much more for me. Thank God I did not become just a Jewish man's wife. Right. But that's what was so heartbreaking for me in that particular moment. And it became less and less heartbreaking in my 20s as I continued to get dumped by other men that I love. Because you survive and you realize that life goes on, but when you're so young, you don't think you have anything else.
- [36:52]
A
That's exactly how I felt. I felt there would be nothing without him. I believed that with my whole heart and that.
- [36:57]
B
That even though you were very much living life on your own and supporting yourself, and you were, you know, you had a great career and everything, you were an individual standing on your own two feet supporting him, right?
- [37:11]
A
Yes. But I was doing it all for him.
- [37:13]
B
Right.
- [37:13]
A
Everything was in furtherance of our love. That's how I viewed it. Like, I literally viewed, like, oh, I got this job for our love. Like, everything.
- [37:23]
B
People were like, why are you so successful? It's like, because I'm trying to keep my husband, bitch. Yeah, exactly.
- [37:29]
A
Like, I can't live without him.
- [37:31]
B
So it's for that I need to make more money so I don't get a divorce.
- [37:35]
A
Exactly.
- [37:36]
B
I might be litigating my own divorce very soon.
- [37:39]
A
You know what I used to say? This is so funny. Kind of going back full circle to a creative life. I wanted to go to New York. I wanted to live that life. But when I met him and I married him, I was like, well, thank God I didn't do that, because I never would have fallen in love with him. I never would have married him. And now we wouldn't have this life that we have together. I was willing to sacrifice every goddamn thing for our love and our love. I sound so prosaic, but it's literally the way I thought of it. Right.
- [38:06]
B
So I know this story, but for people who don't, can you tell us the story about the moment you finally decided to walk away? It happened in a closet, I believe.
- [38:16]
A
Yeah. I think that it was more just like a series of moments. I do remember that moment in the closet. I actually just.
- [38:22]
B
In the car. I. The car was really worth it.
- [38:25]
A
Yeah. And I think he had just. He not had just. He had lost his job. He I think he got laid off the day we closed on our house. So the day that I bought my first house, he got laid off. But of course I said, I love you and I will do everything for you. You can do whatever you want. My job is your job, my money is your money, because that's our love. Like I said all of those things and I really meant it.
- [38:54]
B
You believed it?
- [38:54]
A
Yeah, I believed it with my whole heart.
- [38:56]
B
Wait, by the way, at that time, were you making enough to pay the mortgage for both of you?
- [39:00]
A
I worked at a large law firm. Yeah. So I never wanted for those things. And I didn't need his money, I needed his buy in. And that clearly disappeared over the next three years when he just didn't get a job. And I was like, I need a partner, like emotionally, intellectually and all of those things. I didn't know how to articulate that because I was still very young. But you know, I think it was like year three into him not having a job. And it was obviously taxing our relationship because I felt like I would come home from 17 hour days and he'd be playing video games and I'd be like, I can't do this, you know? And so we went on this walk in the park. Beautiful day. Like every single person in the neighborhood was out at the park. I'm not even joking. Everyone was rollerblading, picnicking, crossword puzzling, riding their bikes, helmets everywhere. It was just huge park with lots of people. And we started walking around this man made lake in the middle of the park. And I very gently, because I knew it was a potentially nuclear conversation, hey, how's the job search going? What do you think your future looks like? And of course, by the time we made it around one loop, he was screaming at me. And I was like, let's just, let's just go home, you know, because like, I don't want you to be yelling at me in front of all these people. So we get in the car and the yelling just continues. I mean, he is screaming at me so loud. And I'm a very sensitive person. And I remember I wasn't even in my seat. I was in that little space between the seat and the dashboard, like curled up into a ball. Cause he was yelling at me so much. And finally I was like, I can't take this anymore. So before he pulls out of the parking lot, I just get out of the car, slam the door, and I start walking in whatever random direction that vaguely resembled home. And I'm walking, walking, crying and all Of a sudden, I hear somebody honking at me behind me. And then he starts screaming at me.
- [41:04]
B
Get back in the fucking car, you bitch.
- [41:07]
A
And just screaming at me. And I can still see his face through the window. But I think what was harder was just how everyone around me just quieted down. The bicycle stopped, the rollerblading stopped, and people were looking up from their books, staring at me, being yelled at by my husband in this park. And I so vividly remember this man with his two daughters on a bicycle, and they were helmets, and he just stopped his bicycle, and he's just staring at me. And I was just like, oh, my God. Like, how is this my life? How is this my life? And I think that was when I knew, this cannot go on. This cannot go on. That was the beginning of knowing. There were other moments that added to my knowledge and my resolve. But that was probably when I realized, I will. I cannot be a sham. I cannot be this fake person anymore. I just can't.
- [42:14]
B
I think what's interesting is that you had been fighting with him in this capacity for decades at this point, but you needed to be almost publicly humiliated in order to really understand what you were enduring.
- [42:31]
A
That's very true. It's an interesting thing, what the gaze of other people can unearth in you. It's kind of like you tell yourself, would you ever talk to your sister the way that you talk to yourself? Would you ever talk to your best friend the way that he talks to you? No. But you don't even really realize what that means until it happens in this open forum. And you're like, oh, I can see what that man on the bicycle is seeing. And I know what he's thinking. He's worried about his two girls. He's worried about his two daughters who are behind him and wondering, God damn it, I will do everything to protect my two girls from ever being in this kind of relationship. Why can I not protect myself in the same way that this man wants to protect his two girls? Why have I allowed this to happen? And me, I'm a fucking trial lawyer. Like, what the hell is going on?
- [43:27]
B
That is the irony of it all. You defend other people, but you could not defend yourself.
- [43:31]
A
I could not protect myself. And that is what love can do. When my mom said, love is not enough, that is what love can do. And I know people are gonna be like, that's not real love. No, I loved him. I loved him. It may not be perfect love, but I loved him, and he loved me. But that is what love can do. If you do not protect yourself.
- [43:52]
B
Have you ever spotted McDonald's hot crispy fries right as they're being scooped into the carton and time just stands still.
- [44:07]
A
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- [44:37]
B
For people who are not in abusive relationships or have never even come close to your situation with your ex, I think it's very hard for them to understand, like why would you stay? It was so dysfunctional. What do you wish? People who have an injuries this new about people who are stuck in psychologically or even physically abusive relationships, it's really hard to leave. And somebody looking in from the outside doesn't understand that. How can they understand it?
- [45:08]
A
I think that you have to analogize it to something that they can understand, which is like, oh, I should probably not eat this bucket of ice cream, but I'm going to do it anyway. I'm not feeling good. I'm feeling lonely or I don't want to imagine my life without this ice cream or well, I've been eating ice cream my whole life and I'm okay, I'm not dead, you know, like it's. Or I should probably go work out. I don't really want to. I kind of just want to sit here and watch Netflix or, you know, I know working out is good for me, but it's really hard. I don't want to do hard thing right now. I want to do comfortable things right now. I think if you boil it down to the habit of accepting abuse, the habit of denying yourself the habit of unrecognizing your worth, it can be habitual. These big groundbreaking choices that will alter the rest of your life can be boiled down to it's just habitual. I remember when I thought about leaving him, I was in the garage, like our two car garage, and I was like, I really need to leave. Like this is not a healthy situation for me. Like intellectually I can see it. And then I remember looking around at the garage and just was like, yes. But then I would need to extricate all of my stuff from his stuff. Look at this will take forever.
- [46:36]
B
It's a logistical nightmare.
- [46:37]
A
I Was like, I don't want to do it. I don't want to do it. I'll just stay. I'll just stay in this relationship, even though it's killing me, because I would rather do that because it's comfortable, but.
- [46:45]
B
It'S what you know.
- [46:45]
A
It's what I know. And it's the ice cream. It's the sitting at home on my couch instead of working out, doing the hard thing, because I didn't think that the hard thing was doable. But also, I didn't think that the rewards of doing it were worth it.
- [47:01]
B
But you didn't know what the rewards were, because my dad always had this phrase in Chinese that he would tell me when I was in the depths of my despair after I got dumped by yet another man in my 20s. And I would be so depressed. And I just feel like, when is this gonna end? It's never gonna happen for me. It's happening for everybody else. You know, I had girlfriends who met the love of their lives in college. And my dad goes, anna, win. Your head is stuck in a hole in the ground. I think of, like, ostriches. Like, you can't see that there is a whole world outside of that dark hole that you're in. But as soon as you have the courage and the strength to extricate your head from that hole in the ground, you can see that the world is truly your oyster. And that always stuck with me because it was like, I think depression for me and kind of being in these really, really sad situations where I attributed my worth to men was always like. It felt never ending. Like I would never get out of it. But inevitably, I. But you forget that in the moment because your head's in the hole, you're like. It's just darkness, and it will always be darkness. So I'm curious as to why your parents didn't want you to marry him, though. Did they know it was this verbally abusive? And did they know how angry he was? Or did they not like him for other reasons?
- [48:15]
A
My father had no idea what was going on. He just was listening to my mom, which is very typical.
- [48:21]
B
Smart man.
- [48:22]
A
Yeah. My dad was like, I'll do whatever my wife tells me to do. And so he signed the card.
- [48:30]
B
All the thank you notes we write from our wedding, it's just. I write them all, and, you know, Dave signs. Yeah.
- [48:35]
A
Jay Chung Lee. Yes. My mom, I don't think she ever knew the extent of what was going on. But it's interesting. I'm writing this memoir right now. About my mother. And it starts with this prologue where this was, like, the broken moment, you know, this is when, in my view, it was, like, obvious it was abuse. Like, I was like, okay, now we have crossed the line. It is now abuse, you know? And I remember it was like two or three in the morning, and I ran out of my house with my dog. And, like, just pajamas, no shoes, just ran out of the house with my dog. And my parents, luckily lived in the same townhouse complex as us, so their house is literally like 300 yards from mine. So I ran with my dog to my. My mom's house. And, you know, I'm knocking on the door, you know, two, three in the morning. Is she going to answer? Is she going to answer? And sure enough, she answers. And she's like, you know, come on in, come on in. And I tell her, it's over, it's over, it's over. You have to understand, I had done this maybe, like, 50 times. Okay, so my mom had seen that over and play out repeatedly. A lot of times she would open the door and she'd be like, why? You're just gonna go back. I don't even wanna let you in. Don't bother me anymore with this. You're just gonna go back. She had seen that before we got married, when we got married, after we got married, she had to watch that. And my mother is a very tough woman. And she is a very. She knows her worth, you know? So to see her daughter do that was, like, more shameful than anything in the whole wide world. And it was also so emotionally taxing because she felt like she was trying so hard to protect me and just didn't know how. So, you know, I don't know if you have children, but as a mother, I can't even. I can't even imagine, like, how hard it must be. I don't.
- [50:27]
B
But I have a dog.
- [50:28]
A
Imagine if somebody hurt your dog.
- [50:30]
B
Oh, my God. And, like, I could do. But then my dog was like, yeah, I just want to keep getting hurt.
- [50:35]
A
I love it.
- [50:35]
B
I love the human that's hurting me. It would tear me up inside.
- [50:39]
A
It's exactly what it did to her. And that's why at a certain point, she was like, just get out of my face. Like, I can't deal with it. But that night, she didn't. And you know that.
- [50:47]
B
Do you think she knew it was different that night?
- [50:50]
A
It was different because in my mind, when you physically act out in anger against a woman, then it is. The line is crossed. And when I went home that night and I told her what happened. It was different in everybody's mind. We knew it was a matter of time. It was just a matter of how do we execute on this plan to remove Joanne from the situation.
- [51:21]
B
And it's heartbreaking that it had to get to that point, but I think that's really just indicative of how people learn. Like, I really think that people have to learn the hard way. You cannot learn from other people telling you so. Maybe your mom would have said, he's gonna hit you one day. And he's. You'd have been like, no, no, no, it's fine. It's fine.
- [51:40]
A
Oh, I didn't know. I would never have believed that you.
- [51:42]
B
Would never have listened. Never have believed that you would have never listened. And only when you experienced it did you say, okay, I have to leave. But I will say it takes a lot of courage to leave, and it takes a lot of courage to leave even after they've done something physically to you. And there's a lot of women who have a difficult time leaving even though they're in physically abusive relationships. For women who are on the precipice of leaving their spouses who are abusive but just can't pull the trigger, what's your advice to them?
- [52:14]
A
Oh, man. That is. I think the first thing you say is, I understand. Like, I understand where you're coming from. I understand what you're feeling, and there's space for that feeling. You're allowed to want to stay. Like, you're allowed to. Don't listen to anyone who says you're not allowed to want to stay. You're allowed to have that feeling. But, you know, a good therapist of mine said, but feelings aren't facts, okay?
- [52:38]
B
Like, you think, thank God they aren't, by the way, because there's a lot going on in my head that I'm glad isn't real, factual.
- [52:43]
A
And you can want that. You can feel that to your core. But that's not factual. What is factual, I think, is that there is a way to safely remove yourself from those situations. That way may have not revealed itself to you yet. I think it is important to be as safe as possible when trying to uncover that path. What is that path? What does it look like for me? Does it mean that I have to start saving some money? Does it mean that I need to start building a circle around me to the extent that I'm allowed to? Maybe it's a professional circle. Maybe you're not allowed to have friends, but you're allowed to have colleagues. You know, maybe it's. You're not allowed to have a therapist, but you're allowed to have an obgyn. You know, you need to start identifying the people who can be a resource for you and start building that relationship as slowly as you need to, but as quickly as you can, you know? And I think that ultimately, I mean, I say all these kind of practical things, but ultimately it's understanding to what you said, to what your father alluded to. There is this whole wide world out there for you. You deserve that world. It is there. It is your inheritance. You deserve it, but you have to fight for it. Unfortunately, it's not gonna fall into your lap as women. It never falls into our fucking lap. We have to claw at it. We have to fight for it, we have to dig for it. All of those things are true, but it is there. And the lie that you get told early on is that the world you're living in, that's the one that you deserve, and that is just not true.
- [54:30]
B
Well, like all good things in life, it's simple, but it's not easy. It's very easy to say it, or it's simple to say it on a podcast and be like, do this and do that. But then the actual practice of moving yourself towards that. They say inertia is the most powerful force. And I believe that because there are so many times where I just want to wallow in how I feel. And even though I know going on a run, running has actually really helped my mental health. But sometimes just deciding to run is the hardest. Oh, yeah, it's the hardest thing. It's not actually running itself. Once you're out there, 10 minutes in, you're like, oh, this is great. It's the physical act of saying, I'm gonna do this, even though I could just languish in my bed right now because it's so much easier to continue what you're doing than to change. So what's interesting about you is that since you met your husband so young, and you got married so young, and you divorced at 35, you never actually dated until you were 35.
- [55:27]
A
Yes. That's so true.
- [55:29]
B
I know. That was so weird. Okay, so walk me through that. How long after did you start dating before you were legally divorced? Cause there's a period of separation, right, that lasts for many years. And I know you were paying him alimony for a long time and everything, but when did you first decide you were ready to date? Not again, but for the first time in your life. And how did you find dates?
- [55:53]
A
So. So it's funny that you say that, but yeah, we were separated for about a year before the divorce is finalized. And during that time I actually met a young man. I always call him a young man. Cause in my mind he was like a boy. He was like, you know, seven or eight years younger than me. And I met him through Tumblr.
- [56:13]
B
Oh my God, my life is like so ridiculous. You can meet people through Tumblr.
- [56:20]
A
I met him through the poetry tag. He was a poet.
- [56:26]
B
And I was like, so you invented online dating before anybody else? I don't know, it might have existed.
- [56:33]
A
I was not aware of it. But yeah, I met him through the poetry tag on Tumblr. We were both poets and he was phenomenally talented and very cute. And you know, we started just like exchanging like first it was very like innocent. We were just like, you know, hearting each other's poems and commenting.
- [56:50]
B
So. Did you not know what he looked like?
- [56:52]
A
No.
- [56:52]
B
Okay.
- [56:53]
A
And then we.
- [56:54]
B
This could have turned out very poorly.
- [56:55]
A
For you, by the way, but you know, he was such a talented poet. And we just started exchanging emails, which turned into texts and, you know, messages. And then we met in person and we had a very intense, wonderful, life altering relationship that, you know, it was very intense. But I remember, like, shortly after my divorce was final, I realized this is a lovely chapter in my life, but it's not my future and it's not his future and it's not fair to either of us to prolong this any longer than it needs to be. And so I ended it with him. But I still think of him so very fondly. And you know, he's married and hopefully he has children and all those things because he deserves all of those things.
- [57:40]
B
And so you go on Tumblr, you meet your first boyfriend after your ex husband. And how long did that relationship last?
- [57:48]
A
For about a year. Like we ended things like probably like a month or two after my divorce is finalized. Yeah.
- [57:56]
B
So this was because you're 45 now. So this was 10 years ago, right?
- [58:00]
A
Yes, it would have been 2014.
- [58:04]
B
It's the early days of online dating apps.
- [58:06]
A
Yes, yes.
- [58:06]
B
So did you get on a dating app?
- [58:08]
A
Yes, I did. I started getting on whatever, OkCupid and Match.com and those things, those were the things that were on the TV commercials at the time. And my sister in law, my brother and sister in law, they moved in with me, me and they like. My sister in law was like my schedule keeper. She managed like a lot of it. For me, because she was just like, you have to date. You have to date. She thought it was really fun to be sort of like my person who helped me with that and became almost like a job. It was really kind of hard, but yeah. And that's how I met my current husband.
- [58:44]
B
On which OkCupid. OkCupid. There we go.
- [58:48]
A
I know my life is, like I said, very weird. No, it's great.
- [58:52]
B
I mean, that's very. Of our generation. Like, who. Who meets in real life anymore? I met my husband on Bumble. Oh, lovely.
- [58:58]
A
Yeah.
- [58:58]
B
But I graduated college the year that Tinder really blew up or the year after that. Tinder really blew up. And before it became kind of. I feel like what people think of it as a hookup app. Like, at the time, I think people. These apps were so new that people were still looking at them as like a younger, cooler version of match.com and OkCupid. And they were not nearly as complicated. It was like five photos and a little blurb about yourself and male, female, age. That's it. You're located, the radius, all of that. But because you had been burned so badly by your ex, you meet Anthony. How do you know that you want to do this again? Because I meet people who get divorced and they're like, I'm never getting married again. I don't care. I'll find a partner. And especially because you don't want children. Like, I guess there's no. It's not that. There's no reason, but you don't have that factor pressuring you. So why did you decide to get married again? And how did you know Anthony was really the person you should be marrying?
- [60:01]
A
I think there were a lot of things. That's an astute observation on your part. I didn't have any pressure, for sure, because children were not something that I felt a need for. I wouldn't say I didn't want children. I think actually one of the perks of divorcing my ex husband was now I. I never would bring children into our relationship. And so I was like, well, if I find a healthy guy that I feel safe around, maybe I could have kids. So that was actually very nice, having that as an option. But I think, like some of your friends, I was like, I don't ever want to get married again. I don't need it. I just want to have fun, be promiscuous, and date as many men as I can, which very quickly became quite boring to me. I was like, you know, like, I don't actually like this this is not fun for me. I'm. You know, physically, it's like. So it became not fun. I stopped using the apps for a bit because I was like, this is so stupid. And then, you know, I was just. I actually went through my filtered section. Anthony's message had been filtered out. And I looked at it, and I looked at him, and I was like, oh, you know, classical musician, pianist, and my age, nobody appreciates classical music. So it's like, oh, this guy actually knows something about classical music. And it turned out, like, he knows a whole heck of a lot of classical music. He's one of the great pianists of our time. And so I was like, okay, I'll hang out with you, whatever. And four dates in, I was still like, this has gone nowhere. But I was like, but I'll just, like, keep dating.
- [61:40]
B
It was not love at first sight.
- [61:41]
A
I. I don't really like him, and he's not for me and all this stuff. And then he played piano for me, and I was like, well, I could just do this for a little while longer because he was just so talented and so gifted. And I think over time, I just sort of fell in love with him. I don't know what. There's no, like, you know, oh, this is the love of my life. It was just, like, over time, I started to see things about him that I really loved, and I just was. Was like, we're really great friends, and I don't want my life to be without him anymore. I think that what I learned from my first relationship is that letting the bottom fall out from beneath you can feel awfully wonderful. But eventually, you got to figure out a way to replace that bottom. And if you don't have the strength to do that, then that relationship is going to be very difficult to manage because you want to have a sense of who you are. Anthony never, ever made me lose myself. There's something, you know, sometimes I wonder, but it's not that love that I had, you know, from the first love, you know, like, the one where I literally felt like my soul just being torn apart in this delicious way that I never have with Anthony. But I have respect. I have boundaries, which sounds so romantic, I know, but I have wonderful laughter. I have somebody who believes in me when I don't believe in myself. Somebody who's always telling me, you are so extraordinary, and I wish you could see how extraordinary you are. Somebody who challenges me to be better in every way. Someone I wake up with every morning, and I never have to feel like I'M threatening his masculinity, his intelligence, his self confidence with using words that, you know, he doesn't understand. Which is always a big deal with my previous husband. Like, I could just be me. And he wants that of me. And I think those are the things that, you know, maybe don't spell the great saga of romance, but spell sustainable relationships. Again, I make this sound so unromantic. My husband is super romantic, but I.
- [63:55]
B
Should say that I think we've been fed a very distorted version of love by Hollywood that's great on film and in stories, but not practical or healthy in real life. Because you talk about the saga of love. Well, our lives, our day in and day out should not be a saga. It should be boring. Like, I always think that your love should be boring if it's functional because you just can't be excited, good or bad all the time. And I think for women who are only accustomed to dysfunction, peace feels like born.
- [64:27]
A
Oh, it gives you anxiety, actually. Yeah.
- [64:29]
B
You're like, wait, am I in the right relationship? We're not fighting all the time. What do you mean? You don't care that I said this or did that? Like, and you're kind of looking for ways to like. And then that's when you kind of lose sight of what's functional versus. Oh, there's no spark there. No, there is, but, like, it's not that super crazy. It's not like a bomb going off all the time. But I always say it's the notebook of fact, especially on our generation that. You've seen the Notebook, right? With Ryan Gosling?
- [64:59]
A
I know of the movie. I have not watched.
- [65:00]
B
Oh, okay. Go watch it and tell. I'm actually. I need you to read. I need you to write an op ed on the Notebook, please. Okay. That is write an op ed on the Notebook. So in the movie, the protagonist Ryan Gosling and Rachel McAdams character, they have a very dysfunctional relationship. And it really starts off pretty dysfunctional, but they always make up and it's always super hot and sexy. And then they break up for like 10 years because he gets sent off to war. And her mom, she's from a well to do family and her mom doesn't wanna be with him. And then they get back together and it's just like this explosive relationship the whole time. But in the end it works out and then they die together in the end.
- [65:41]
A
Oh, that sounds so beautiful.
- [65:42]
B
It sounds so beautiful, right? But then you think about what that looks day in and day out when nobody in Hollywood is romanticizing this life, and it's actually horrific. Who wants to be fighting with their partner all the time? And the way they got back together was she was actually engaged to be married to another guy who was, like, amazing to her. I was like, I'm like, that guy Lon Hammond got screwed over so badly because all he ever did was love that woman. And she saw something in the paper about her ex, and she was like, I must go see him. And of course, she leaves her fiance, her stable, loving fiance for the dude with a beard.
- [66:19]
A
That sounds terrible. Toxic.
- [66:21]
B
Yeah. But it's a great story.
- [66:22]
A
It is a great story, and I think we're all pining for the great stories of our lives. I wrote in one of my newsletters, podcasts, that the reason I am here today is because of Twilight, the book. And I'm not. I mean, it is. I mean, when you were talking about your father saying, get your head out of the ground and see that there's world out there, that is. That is what propelled me to get my head out of the ground is that book. I was like, oh, my God. There is a world where this vampire, this really hot, sexy vampire, will help me gain ownership of my femininity. Like, that is what I need to do to feel passion and desire again. There's a world out there for me like that. Where is it? Where is it? I'm. I'm in pursuit of that world, and that's what ultimately led me down this path. So, you know, I think we're all looking for some version of that story, and there's something good about that pursuit, but at the end of the day, like you said, you gotta. Feelings are not facts. We have to somehow wrap facts around that story.
- [67:24]
B
That is beautiful. And that's where we're gonna end. Thank you so much for being here today. Where can everyone find you?
- [67:31]
A
You can find me at the Korean Vegan pretty much everywhere in the world.
- [67:36]
B
Go watch, listen, consume all of our content. It is so beautiful.
- [67:41]
A
Thank you so much. It's been a pleasure.
- [67:42]
B
Thank you.