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- [00:00]
Anna Kai
Dear old work platform. It's not you, it's us. Actually, it is you. Endless onboarding, constant IT bottlenecks. We've had enough. We need a platform that just gets us. And to be honest, we've met someone new. They're called Monday.com and it was love at first. Onboarding. Their beautiful dashboards, their customizable workflows got us floating on a digital cloud. 9 so no hard feelings, but we're moving on. Monday.com the first work platform you'll love to use. Welcome to Brutally Anna, a podcast about finding love, losing love, and all the things we think about but don't talk about enough. I'm your host, Anna Kai, AKA maybe both across social media, here to remind you that life can be beautiful even when it's freaking brutal. While all of us were grieving the loss of our daily freedoms, like buying toilet paper whenever we wanted to in 2020, my guest today, Ashley Lemieux, was is also grieving the loss of her unborn son due to sepsis. Four years later, Ashley has channeled her grief into helping others cope with loss through her chart topping podcast Healing her, her social media channels and her bestselling books. Ashley, thanks so much for being here today. I have to say after I went on your podcast, I had a friend of mine reach out who has dealt with a lot of loss in the last couple years and tell me, oh my gosh, I love Ashley. I can't believe you were on her podcast. And I like, oh, this is amazing. Like you truly reach people who are going through very, very dark periods in their life. This friend of mine, her mom had been battling cancer for at least 10 years and fought very courageously and finally succumbed to it last year. And then in the same year her father in law passed away very suddenly and they lost their dog of 14 years. That's a lot. That's a lot for anybody to handle. And she's got so much beauty in her life. Like she has four great kids and a great marriage and everything. But it's so hard dealing with that much loss, right? And I feel like my body knew I was obviously I knew I was coming to talk to you today, but I had the most horrific dream last night, which was not part of my questions that I was going to ask you, but I was like, I was just traumatized by this and I was like, interesting. I'm going to go talk to my friend the grief expert after this. I had this vivid nightmare last night that my dad sudden had a heart attack and died when My mom was away, which actually should have been an indication that it was a dream, because my mom never goes away without my dad. So I should have just been like, this is not real. But I remember that feeling of just. It was horrible. I was just screaming endlessly when I found out, like, my mom went away for one night and my dad dropped dead. And I was like, oh, my God. And I woke up. And I woke up my husband. It was 6am and I was like, I had the most horrible dream. I dreamt that my dad died. And he was like, I can assure you, he did not die. I just talked to him at 9:30pm last night on the phone, and everything's fine. But, wow, I did not. I mean, I knew that I would feel horrible one day when that inevitably happens, but I can't even. I remember in the dream saying to whoever I was talking to that it felt like I was being stabbed in the chest and I couldn't even cry. I was literally like, just. I was trying to cry because crying is a release. And I couldn't because I was so upset that it was almost like my body had nothing to give. It was just. I was just screaming. So that being said, that was a dream for me, but it wasn't a dream or a nightmare for you. It was very real. And I want to talk about this because it seems like, you know, the whole premise of your work was based off of this really horrific moment in your life. And there's this concept in screenwriting, and I swear I'm going somewhere with this. There's this concept in screenwriting that's called the all is lost moment, which is the point in which the protagonist story. They lose everything, right in the movies. You know, they lose their job, their boyfriend or girlfriend leaves them. They get evicted from their house. Like, everything is just going wrong and they don't know where to go. And that's a very pivotal point in a typical screenplay because they're pushed to the point of no return. And that is the point that they need to enact the change that they were always meant to enact that ultimately leads to their comeback or rebirth. So was losing your son your all is lost moment? And can you walk us through that night and what happened in the er?
- [04:43]
Ashley Lemieux
Yeah. Okay. This is such a good question. That wasn't my all is lost moment. My all is lost moment actually happened three years prior to that. And that's when I felt like all was lost for me. When we got pregnant with my son, Jace, that was kind of my first Step back into trusting that life still had good things for me. So making the decision to try to grow our family again by getting pregnant and just like, believing that there was a future for us that was full of love and hope and all the things that we are wanting was such a step forward of faith and trust in God universe that, like, this was the next step in our path. And so, I mean, you never expect to lose someone that you love, right? And we obviously didn't get pregnant ever. Thinking that I would go through a late pregnancy loss. What had happened, particularly to answer your question of that night, I had gone like it had been a normal day, but throughout the day, my body started aching and I didn't know what was going on. I thought maybe it's because I had gone on a walk with my mom. Pregnancy makes your joints move, so things start hurting in places you didn't know they could hurt. And we'd been planning the nursery that day because we also had just bought a new home. We had moved back to Arizona to be by my family, knowing that we were going to start just really planting roots because this was the new season of hope and love in our lives. And I ended up that night at midnight. I just couldn't. I couldn't move. I was screaming in pain and didn't know why. And my husband called the paramedics. They came, and it was scary because Covid had just been closing everything down. And so on a regular day, I probably would have gone to my OB earlier, but because no one was leaving their house and you definitely weren't going to a doctor unless you needed to, I was like, I'm fine. I'll stay at home. Was taken to the hospital where they found out that I had gone septic. And who goes septic when you are a healthy, functioning, you know, person. But apparently what we now know is that I have this particular type of thing that happens just when I'm pregnant that if it's not watched, it led to an untrackable UTI that then led to kidney infection. My kidneys were on the verge of failing, and I had gone septic. And what sepsis is, is it's the infection overtakes your body because it goes into your bloodstream and it is so painful. And they told me that the hardest part of that moment was they told me that that was the day that they had shut out any outside visitors from being able to go in with you. So I needed to be admitted, obviously, to the hospital for. We didn't know how long, but My husband couldn't come with me. And I remember feeling so alone. And I just kept saying, I just need you to check the baby. I need you to check on our baby.
- [08:12]
Anna Kai
Then I was for you at that point.
- [08:14]
Ashley Lemieux
At that point, I was 16, okay? And they wheeled me down, and the baby was great. Saw his heartbeat. I was like, okay, we're good. I can do anything. But then the next morning, I just. I wasn't okay. And I had gone through so much pain. And there was this moment where this. It's like a rapid response team is called in, and there's all these doctors around me because I'm telling them I can't breathe. And my body just feels like it's on fire everywhere. And in that moment, I just had this knowing, like, my intuition, I think, especially as a mom, I just knew that there was no way that I could survive what had just happened and also keep my baby alive through that experience, too. And so again, I asked for another ultrasound. It took him a while to get me one. And that night found out that we had lost him. And they told me I had time to make it. They told me I had time. But what ended up happening was that I ended up delivering him all by myself the next morning. And up until that point, they still hadn't allowed anyone to come and be with me. And I found myself being so pissed because I thought that that was my next right step in life. And I had felt just like life took me and just dropped, kicked me again. And I didn't know how I could possibly move forward. So that's. That's a lot happen.
- [09:54]
Anna Kai
That's a lot, given that you had already had a massive loss in your life, which actually ties really well into. My second question is that, you know, when you go through a traumatic loss of a loved one, it sort of feels like the grief is never going to go away when you're in it, especially in the beginning. It's like, how do I even move on from here? How long did that stage last for you after you lost your son? And what advice would you have to the people listening that are currently in the depths of grief right now and just feel like, which way is up?
- [10:27]
Ashley Lemieux
I love this question because I feel like we've been taught wrong. We've been taught wrong and taught that grief is something that we move on from and we have to get over. What I have learned is that grief is actually something to be experienced. And as we learn how to experience grief, it changes us, of course, and it changes our view of Ourselves and lives and the people around us. But it also allows us to start carrying our grief differently. It took me a little bit, but I learned and I finally accepted that grief isn't something that ever goes away. How could it? Your love never goes away for that person that you are missing, right? Like, that grief is the price that we pay for love. And so I had to learn, how do I keep experiencing grief while also experiencing all the other parts of my life, too? So that I like using the word and the word and of. I feel grief, and I also feel a lot of joy, and there's still so much future for me ahead. And so if you are in this space right now where you're like, I literally don't know what to do when you are in the acuteness of grief. I think that hearing something like this makes you might want to, like, punch me in the face, right? Like, what do you mean? Grief is something to be experienced and doesn't ever go away. And so right now, you're just trying to survive and you just take it minute by minute, and suddenly those minutes add up and then it becomes day by day, and then the day by days add up and it becomes month by by month. And you'll notice that healing will start coming in the forms of being able to laugh again or being able to, like, go to a favorite spot that you used to go with with the person who you are missing. And allowing all of the emotions to exist in your life is how we continue to move forward through our grief.
- [12:32]
Anna Kai
Was there a clear turning point for you in your healing journey after the loss of your son that you sort of suddenly felt, I'm not as kind of overwhelmed by grief as I was or was just a series of small moments that led there. Was there a turning point?
- [12:50]
Ashley Lemieux
I love this because I used to believe that healing was one big moment. I was waiting for this one thing to come and just change my life, change how I felt, take away the pain, bring whatever I was wanting back. But I learned that healing isn't one big moment. It's consistent movement forward that we have to take charge of making the decisions to invite it into our life. I created a process for myself, actually, and it's the work that I do. But it's called clarity mapping. Because what happens when you go through grief? Things get so foggy. Your brain gets so foggy on who. What is real? Who am I, what do I want to be doing? Where do I want to go from here and to. For me, sitting down and getting clear on who I was now because I was different. I. I was different. I had to grieve who I was before because that girl was no longer existing, because she knew different things now. And being able to get clear on who I was and where I wanted to go next helped me learn what small steps that I had the energy to make day by day that all could lead up into bigger choices that would continue me down this path of healing.
- [14:16]
Anna Kai
Interesting. And the clarity mapping, is that a guide now that people can tap in for?
- [14:21]
Ashley Lemieux
It's actually a book. It is. I have a book. I wrote a book on it. And I specifically work with female entrepreneurs to. In their businesses because we go through these life moments that just change everything. And being able to sit with people and help them lean into who they are now is one of the most beautiful, magical things that now I feel like it's my honor that I get to do so. Yeah, it's a guide. It's the process.
- [14:55]
Anna Kai
No, it's amazing. You know, I. When did I meet you? It was very early this year in person.
- [15:03]
Ashley Lemieux
It was last year.
- [15:04]
Anna Kai
It wasn't last year.
- [15:05]
Ashley Lemieux
It was November, last. Okay, that's weird because that it's almost September.
- [15:11]
Anna Kai
Oh my God. It was last year. Okay, so it was last November. And last year I had experienced the first death of a family member. I lost my grandpa. And I was very naive to how I would feel about that because he was 95 and we kind of all knew that his time was coming and he went sort of the way we all hope to go, peacefully surrounded by family. And I thought I was going to be okay with it. Like I thought I would be sad in a detached way. Kind of how when you see suffering on tv, you're sad for those people, but you're not. You don't feel it viscerally almost. And I was wrecked by it. I could not believe how upset I was. And I remember the worst moments were always that first two weeks after we lost him. The first night, I remember feeling shockingly okay. Like I think my dad told me around 6pm that night, my husband came home an hour and a half later from work. And I was like, my grandfather passed and he's like, are you okay? I was like, yeah, I'm fine. He lived a great life. I was actually okay. I was a little sad, but I was like, oh, okay. It was kind of going how I thought it was gonna go. And then I was in shock. I didn't realize that I was not at all processing kind of. I just felt shockingly okay. I Was like, okay, this is gonna be fine, you know? And then the next morning, I woke up, and I remember feeling like this. When I would get dumped in the City in my 20s, there's always a moment when you wake up in the morning and you forget that the loss happened.
- [16:50]
Ashley Lemieux
Yes.
- [16:51]
Anna Kai
And then you remember, and it's the worst fucking feeling ever. So I would wake up for the first week and forget that my grandpa just died and, like, it was supposed to be a normal morning, and then remember all over again that he's never coming back in a physical form, and it would just wreck me. And so I. The only other time I remember feeling like that I told my husband was when I was dating and you get dumped or you break up with somebody and you wake up in the morning for a second, you think everything's normal, and you're still with your boyfriend, and then you're not, and it's just like you're breaking up all over again. But that was the only kind of loss I had experienced. Luckily, up until the point I was 33, I had never experienced real death. And I told Dave, I was like, this is so much worse, because when I got dumped, even if it was with who I thought was the love of my life, and I remember telling my mom plenty of times, like, oh, my God, my life is over. So and so left me. You know, it felt like the end of the world. But in the back of my mind, I always kind of knew. I was like, I'm gonna be okay. I'm young. I can figure this out. And there's always sort of a redemption story around it. And I had the toughest time. For the first month after my grandpa passed, figuring out what silver lining there was, I was like, what good can come of this? It's not like some Chad left me, and I can be like, well, you know what? I'm heartbroken now, but I'll be better off later. I'm like, my grandpa's dead. Like, how do I make that a good thing? And, you know, that's when I've kind of really had to dig deep and figure out, well, what do I believe in? What happens after death? Because I wasn't raised with any religion, and I just never thought about it because I never had to. Right? So I knew growing up that I wasn't an atheist. I sort of believed in a higher power just because it had felt like in my life, there had been so many things that were just too coincidental to just be coincidences. But I never really had to sit down and think, well, do I believe in God? Do I believe in the universe, the higher power, whatever you want to call it? And I finally had to kind of reconcile with myself, like, what do I think about what happens after death? And so that was a really interesting sort of. That was the silver lining for me. But, you know, in your experience working with people who are grieving loss, because I assume you're working with people who are not only grieving the loss of a partner, a child, a family member, you're also. They're grieving loss in other ways. Like, do you think that grieving the loss of a marriage is similar to grieving the death of a significant other?
- [19:36]
Ashley Lemieux
So I once heard his name is David Kessler. He's. He's another grief educator. And he once said something that I'm like, that is so good. He said, I was asked once what the worst type of grief is. And he said, I replied, it's your own, right, Whatever it is that you are experiencing. What I know about grief is that there's so many different types of things that bring up grief in our life. And obviously the intensity of it is going to change based off of if it's an out of order death, meaning you lose your child, which no parent expects to lose their child. Right? That goes out of the natural order. There's deaths of our parents, of grandparents, but then there's also grief that so many of us don't talk about, that we don't have a lot of conversations around that can be the loss of a dream. Like things in your life just didn't go how you thought that it was going to go, and now you're like, what am I doing? Or it could be even the loss of a job or of a friendship that you really love, but something happened and you just aren't friends anymore. Or there's so many things that bring grief. Which is why it's so important that we have these conversations. Because when we aren't taught that it's okay to grieve whatever life has brought us, we can start comparing in our head and say, well, I only lost my friendship, no one died. Or I only am going through this thing. They have it so much worse. And what that actually is is called avoidance. All of us humans have this tricky thing called avoidance, which means that we don't actually want to acknowledge how hard something is for us, because that means we have to acknowledge how hard something is for us and we have to feel the emotions of it and then move it through. And when we start Comparing, well, what's harder or what's worse. It leads us down this path of never acknowledging our own emotions because we're always going to come up with someone or something that is worse than what we are currently going for, going through. And that's how we just keep running away from the pain or the reality of all of our lives.
- [21:56]
Anna Kai
That's so interesting. I've never thought about comparing grief because I've done that. I said, well you know, I lost my grandpa, but I didn't lose my parent at a young age. I mean my dad lost his mom very suddenly when he was 24. That unequivocally to me is worse. And so there was a part of me that felt like I didn't have the right to be as upset as I was. Also, I did not grow up with my grandfather in my life on a day to day basis because he lived in China, but he did spend extended periods of time living with us in the US throughout my childhood. So I did have a relationship with him in some capacity, but it wasn't like I saw him every day or every week or anything like that. And so there was this sort of odd feeling like I shouldn't feel like this, right? I should be a lot more detached, I should be more reasonable. And then there was the other layer of it where I didn't want to look too upset because I was like, well think about how my dad must be feeling. I can't be more upset than him. You know, it's almost like I gotta put on a brave face for him. Cause if I'm this upset then maybe he'll just be more upset. And it's this whole thing where we're trying to quantify how we feel and it's this idea of I love that you said it's like we're running away from our own feelings. I'm like, okay, well you know, my mother in law lost her father when she was 13. He died of a heart attack. I was like, okay, well my mother in law lost her father at such a young age. I should be able to handle this. Because you're trying to almost. It's a self soothing tactic. I never thought of that.
- [23:21]
Ashley Lemieux
Yeah, it's self soothing. But then something that you just said is I should be able to handle this. We think that grief is like how it's been taught and how we see it modeled around us is we start believing that grief is this bad emotion to feel and that if we were stronger we wouldn't feel it or if we could Just push it down. Then we could keep moving on. Um, but what if grief is one of those human emotions, just like joy and excitement and love, that we're supposed to feel because we're human? And as I look at grief in that way, it allows me to handle my grief because it allows me to feel it. And I honestly think that that's one of the most brave things that all of us can do, is to sit and feel and acknowledge whatever emotions that we have. It's also interesting to me that you had a dream last night about your dad.
- [24:29]
Anna Kai
I want to see you again, but I never want to see you again.
- [24:31]
Ashley Lemieux
This is what kind of thing. I'm so sorry. But here's what I been thinking about that I wanted to bring up, because I think that this is actually so beautiful. And part of what connects us as humans is that we all have the details of our lives. They're all different from each other. What you go through, what I go through, all different. But the feelings that we have, those are what we share. Those are the same, and that's what connects us. And as you have this dream about your dad, even though it didn't happen, you caught this glimpse of what it might feel like if it did. It's those feelings, though, that allow us to have more empathy for others when they come to us and they're going through those situations. It takes being sympathetic to this next level of, oh, I understand how you must be feeling. I can only imagine what you must be feeling, because I know how much I love my dad and how much, like, this would wreck me if this were to happen. And so I'm going to be here with you and just sit here and know that I can't fix it, but know that you have support from me as we go through this. And I think that that's such an important part of this conversation is so often these emotions that we want to just freaking run from are also the same emotions that connect us deep, deeply together if we allow them to.
- [25:59]
Anna Kai
Yeah. And I think that was my mind's weird way of being like, this is how you're gonna relate to Ashley tomorrow morning.
- [26:05]
Ashley Lemieux
I'm like, sorry, that was your dream. That freaking sucks.
- [26:07]
Anna Kai
I was like, I've met and hung out with Ashley before. I was like, I don't need to relate to her on this deep level. I was like, wow, I woke up and I was like, are you kidding me? Yeah. This is really brutal. It was. And I don't typically have vivid nightmares like that, which is very strange. I Don't really dream that much, or if I do, I don't remember them, but I remembered this one so vividly. You know, losing my grandpa actually just also put a lot of things into perspective for me, as I think any loss does. But I just realized that even at 95, when he had a full life and he had a pretty good life, other than the fact that he lost his wife at an early age, he lost his wife in his 50s, he went the way we all hoped to go, as I said. And I just was like, it felt like he didn't have enough time. And I always was shocked by how I felt. I was like, even at 95, it didn't feel like there was quite enough time. Like, what if he hung on for another year? And it really made me realize that we have so little time on this Earth, even at 95, even if I. We should be so lucky to make it to 95. Right. And so I just really, at that point, something clicked in me, and I was like, I do not want to spend any time with people who I don't want to be around. So if they're draining, if they're just annoying, I mean, not to mention if they make me feel bad professionally or personally or anything, I just stopped doing things out of obligation. It was perhaps the greatest gift that my grandfather's passing could have given me, was free up. So it made me. It free up so much time, but it also gave me the ability to say no so much more easily, because I was like, I could die tomorrow. And if I do, I am not spending my last day fucking at dinner with you. Okay. Or at this party that I don't want to go to. And so not that I had a ton of friends to begin with and extraneous relationships, because I was already at the point in my life where you're an adult and you don't have many groups of friends and everything, but it really kind of zoned in for me. Like, I'm not doing anything unless I absolutely want to do it. You know, barring professional commitments, obviously you can't always apply that to work. But was there anything in your life or were there any people in your life that you cut out after you lost your son because you were like, what the fuck was I doing? Trying to manage this relationship or situation when there are so many bigger things in life?
- [28:42]
Ashley Lemieux
Yeah. So what you're talking about right now is something that I love talking about, is that we don't realize oftentimes when we go through a loss, our values after it start rearranging, we get different priorities, obviously, because we realize, oh, like, nothing. My time's not guaranteed. Nothing is guaranteed. So then how do I want to spend that time? And for me, that kind of started happening in 2017 when my husband and I went through our big, just life changing moment. And then after we lost Our son In 2020, I was brought back to that space and time again of, okay, how are we moving forward from this? Because I felt like I was in this moment where we really were rebuilding our lives and what we wanted for ourselves. And I wanted to be so intentional with what came back into it. And again, it's one of those things that I've done little by little. And there's relationships that don't exist anymore. There were business partners that I'm no longer business partners with that. I mean, and I can say it just so flippantly and like easily right on a podcast in a sentence, but that shit is so hard to sit with and then clear away and believe that you can rebuild and that it's going to work out okay. But in doing that, there's so much more peace in my life. And having more peace in my life makes space for the things that I actually want to spend my time doing and the people that I want to spend my time doing with. Now that I'm a mother again, I have a toddler, she's two. I am such a different mom now than I would have been years ago without learning what I've learned in this way. And so that's part of my meaning making with my grief. I believe, you know, there's a point in everyone's grieving where you can make meaning with what has happened when you're ready to. And part of that for me has been being a very intentional mother because I know that time I'm not in control of that. And it is something that I definitely still is at the top of mind anytime I make any type of decision. Hi there, it's your vagina speaking. I know sometimes I have a hard time heading there when we get down, but OMG Cream from Wisp is here to help. The instant arousal makes it easier to. You know, it takes two minutes to order online, so let's give it a try.
- [31:23]
Anna Kai
Omg.
- [31:25]
Ashley Lemieux
I literally just went to heaven. I'm gonna try that again. Go tell your friends though. Get on WISP, order OMG Cream online@hellowisp.com that's hello WISP.com and have it delivered for free. Use code OMG for 15% off your first order.
- [31:40]
Anna Kai
Today's show is sponsored by Strawberry Me Bitties. Let's cut to the chase. You're stuck. Mentally, emotionally, physically. You know it and I know it. And even your boss knows it. But he or she is too busy maxing out their vacation days to care. You're waiting for the change to help you feel more like you're thriving and less likely you're just surviving. Maybe it's a promotion, maybe it's a new job, or maybe you don't know what you want and that's the problem. But here's the thing. No one is coming to save you. And while you're waiting, your life is ticking on by. If you want more money, a better job, a new job or a new life, you need to stop waiting and start doing. That's where Strawberry Me career coaching comes in. They match you with a certified career coach. And no, not the kind of career coach that your unemployed cousin who keeps telling you to manifest success is. Your certified coach helps you figure out what it is you're actually good at, what it is you want to do, and how to create an actionable plan to make the life you want to live actually happen. They hold you accountable because let's be honest, it's too easy to just do it tomorrow when left to your own devices. So now you can stop waiting, start doing, and start living. What are you waiting for? Truly stop doom scrolling through your for you page. One more viral dog video isn't going to make you feel anymore more ready to take the leap. Go to Strawberry Me Anna and claim your $50 credit. That's Strawberry Me Anna. Because if you don't start taking your career seriously, why should anyone else? How did your faith play into your healing process? Because I talked about this earlier, I really had to figure out what the hell faith meant to me. And I think where I've come to the conclusion is that I feel very spiritual. I don't feel like belong to a denomination or any sort, but I believe in God wholeheartedly. Like there were some weird things that happened after my grandfather passed that I was like, this is just not a coincidence, the timing of it and everything. And I got to a point in the beginning of my faith journey, I felt like I needed the people around me to believe in it too. I was like, you must believe that there is a God. I told my husband. I was like, you cannot be agnostic.
- [34:09]
Ashley Lemieux
Even if you don't. I need you to believe it.
- [34:11]
Anna Kai
I know. Tell me you believe it. Told my parents that. And I've gotten to a point now, a year and a half later, where I'm like, I'm okay if you believe that we die, and that's it. Because I believe the opposite. And I believe so strongly in what I believe in that I can't wait to prove you wrong in the afterlife.
- [34:30]
Ashley Lemieux
I'm sorry. I told my husband, Love, that.
- [34:34]
Anna Kai
I was like, you know, I'm okay with that if you don't believe it, you know? And it's not that he's atheist or agnostic. I think he's just got a question mark around it. But I'm like. I'm like, I can't wait to haunt you later and tell you that I was right, as I usually am with all things.
- [34:48]
Ashley Lemieux
You're right on everything.
- [34:49]
Anna Kai
Right. I was like, when we're dead, I'm gonna be like, see, I told you it wasn't a coincidence. But I think you were raised with religion, correct?
- [34:59]
Ashley Lemieux
Yes. Okay. When you asked that, I felt my heart start beating faster because this isn't something that I talk about ever, but I was raised with religion. Not sure how you knew that, but you knew that.
- [35:14]
Anna Kai
Yeah.
- [35:16]
Ashley Lemieux
And which religion? I'm like, I don't know. Okay. Let me tell you what I'm gonna say, and then maybe I won't. Maybe I won't tell you which religion just because I. I don't want to offend anyone who believes that way.
- [35:34]
Anna Kai
Okay.
- [35:35]
Ashley Lemieux
Okay.
- [35:36]
Anna Kai
I was like, wait.
- [35:38]
Ashley Lemieux
I was like, what religion is that bad? No, no, it's not that it's bad. It' beliefs started to change significantly after I went through grief.
- [35:49]
Anna Kai
Okay.
- [35:50]
Ashley Lemieux
So I was raised in this religious home where I. I guess God was kind of put in a box of who I believed God to be or who I interpreted him to be based off of what I was taught. And as I experienced loss and I experienced what I went through, my faith actually got really difficult for me because who I was experiencing God to be was different than what my brain had been taught. God was all growing up. Does that make sense?
- [36:26]
Anna Kai
Yeah.
- [36:27]
Ashley Lemieux
So I started feeling really unaligned with previous beliefs and now current reality and the new beliefs that that was bringing me. And so my faith, if we're talking from a religious perspective, was very much deconstructed. That was something I also had to grieve because it is so difficult. I don't even know the words because I've never talked about this before. It is. It's so. It feels so deeply difficult when things that you once believed you now and you based all your decisions and whole.
- [37:10]
Anna Kai
World around it was part of your identity. Yeah.
- [37:12]
Ashley Lemieux
Your whole. Yeah. So much of my identity now, I believed differently.
- [37:18]
Anna Kai
Right.
- [37:19]
Ashley Lemieux
That had so much grief and weight attached to it, especially because of the importance that our religion played in my family. So then I had to learn, what is faith now? What is my relationship to God now? What does that look like for me? And I remember someone told me once, they said, you're allowed to be mad at God. And so that's kind of what I clung onto for a little bit while I really wrestled with what do I believe? What do I have faith in? Because I'm really pissed at God right now. And so what does that look like? And so now for me, my faith journey. After going through what I've gone through the past several years, I don't consider myself a religious person at all, which is very different from how I grew up. But I am a very spiritual person, and I've always been a very spiritual, spiritual person. But now. And it's a. Now I'm in. I can't even, like, vocalizing this for the first time on a podcast, so.
- [38:27]
Anna Kai
Interesting, though. This is so interesting.
- [38:30]
Ashley Lemieux
Yeah. It's like, for the first time, though, I'm a spiritual person without the box of what I thought spirituality had to fit inside of. And that has expanded me in a way that I. I can't even put into words. It's. It's expanded who I am. It's expanded my relationship with who I believe is God. It's allowed me to get more intentional in that relationship, more intuitive. So. But, man, that's. And I think a lot of people listening go through this. It's like either in your shoes, where it strengthens this faith that maybe you didn't have yet, or it makes it stronger, or this huge deconstruction happens because you're like, well, shit, this actually isn't anything like I thought life was. And now I need to figure out, what do I believe in. I just gave you a very long, clunky answer, but I guess that's just still kind of where I'm at.
- [39:37]
Anna Kai
But I think that's so relatable because I have. Even though I wasn't raised with religion, I have a lot of girlfriends who were raised very religiously in a very kind of devout way, which I think is more so our parents generation, too, than ours.
- [39:52]
Ashley Lemieux
Yes.
- [39:53]
Anna Kai
And so when they got to an age where they had to figure out what they really believed in versus what they were told to believe in, it's a very jarring process. I Think it's just very jarring to figure out what you think about what happens after we die, because it happens to everyone, but it's just so final. And so I know people who are, like, who are raised with a lot of religion and are now atheists. And I know, obviously, myself, where I was raised with no religion and, you know, taught nothing, basically. And in some ways, that was even harder because I was like, well, it would be easier if somebody would tell me what the fuck would happen, what to do. And it made it almost easier when I was younger to date men who came from religious backgrounds, because I never realized this is what I was doing. But I had one serious relationship where the guy was Jewish, and I had one serious relationship where the guy was very, very Catholic. And I was prepared in both of those instances to convert, essentially, or get baptized. And I think I was willing to do that because it would have been easier than having to make my own decisions about what I believed in. I was like, I will just adopt their belief system.
- [41:13]
Ashley Lemieux
I'll take on yours. I'll give you what you need.
- [41:15]
Anna Kai
Yeah, exactly. I think I would have had a hard marrying into a family that was completely atheist. Like, I don't think I could have been down with that. But I was very into the idea of being okay with marrying into a very religious family because I was like, I'm a blank slate, you know? So that was a really interesting period for me. And I think a lot of adults go through that, and grief is a part of that. And it's interesting because grief does bring up faith. And. Yeah, I'm in the same boat as you right now. I didn't realize you were no longer religious. I knew you were spiritual, but I didn't realize, like, religion is no longer a part of your life at all.
- [41:51]
Ashley Lemieux
Yeah.
- [41:52]
Anna Kai
Yes.
- [41:53]
Ashley Lemieux
But. But I. I still hang on to a lot of the teachings, a lot of the beliefs, a lot. Many of the values. Right. That religion brought into my life. I think that. And I want to make sure I say this clearly, because I think sometimes people leave religion and it becomes something that they loathe, that they hate.
- [42:11]
Anna Kai
Well, you don't need to throw the baby out with the bath water. Right.
- [42:13]
Ashley Lemieux
And I. I don't feel that way, but I do feel like I now am able to just lean into my intuition a bit more and have a relationship with faith, with God. That serves me better.
- [42:32]
Anna Kai
Right.
- [42:33]
Ashley Lemieux
Yeah.
- [42:34]
Anna Kai
I want to pivot a little bit because, you know, a huge part of your content and your healing journey has actually been your relationship. With your husband, who has been a very willing participant in your content. You've both been together since you were really young, which I learned when I was guest on your podcast. Can you walk us through how you met in your relationship?
- [42:57]
Ashley Lemieux
Yeah. So we met in college through mutual friends and we got really married really quickly, partly because of we both grew up in the same religion. And the religious teaching was very much, you get married quickly. There's no sex before marriage. There's you. Like my, I was taught that my role was to be a wife and a mother. And he was taught his role was to be a husband and a provider, which is, you know, great for who that works for. Right. But I think because of that pressure, we actually got married very quickly. Of course we loved each other, but there was also this external pressure and we talk about this often. Of what? We had a different type of engagement. Like, would we have just been able to enjoy each other more without the pressure of, I don't know, these expectations that we were just so young trying to figure out. But so many religions have that type of pressure. So we got married. It was 23. We've been married now for 14 years. So spoiler alert, it worked out for us and it's great.
- [44:16]
Anna Kai
Which is incredible because most of the time when people get married that young because they feel external pressure, it actually wasn't the right person.
- [44:24]
Ashley Lemieux
Right.
- [44:25]
Anna Kai
Clearly he was the right person.
- [44:26]
Ashley Lemieux
Right before him, though, I had dated a lot of guys and I also had a on, off again relationship for several that lasted several, several years. And so when my husband and I, Mike, started dating, I just, and I hate saying this because I don't know, I don't believe specifically that we each have one soulmate, but we can love and make things work with people if like that feeling is reciprocated. But I remember meeting him and, and having the phrase of, well, when, you know, you know, like that made sense to me because just in my heart, in my soul, I just felt like Mike was the person that I was going to want to have by my side no matter what life was going to bring us. And now, you know, especially when you go through loss, it impacts your marriage significantly. And it's very understandable that the divorce rates after loss go up high because you grieve differently. Things change if someone's suppressing their emotions or has different needs. Like, how do you do that together? And we've figured it out. And I remember one time, and this is when I knew it was going to, we were going to be okay. We had gone through just hell and back, and I didn't know for me what I needed anymore in my life. And I looked at him, and I was, like, very clear about. I didn't know where life went for me from that moment. And he just looked at me so lovingly, and he said, ashley, whatever it is that you need, I'm going to be here to support you through it every step of the way. And I just knew that we were going to figure out how to make it work. And we have. And I think that with any relationship, we've had to really learn how to be intentional with each other. And now, even when we're in this new season of being parents to this toddler, it's like, okay, again, our relationship has changed because she gets all of our attention. There's not a lot of time and energy left at the end of the day. So it's like, intentionally, then how do we continue to grow together? And I think that that's the question that we always found ourselves coming back to.
- [46:50]
Anna Kai
I love how you check in with one another and how you're not just sort of married on autopilot, because I do feel like. I mean, you hear. I don't know what the statistics are, but after the loss of a child, I think there's a pretty high rate of duality.
- [47:03]
Ashley Lemieux
It's like over 75%. Yeah, it's.
- [47:05]
Anna Kai
It's not great. It's not working in your favor. And I think, correct me if I'm wrong, the reason is because the marriage almost becomes a reminder of the loss of that child and the fact that it isn't there, that sometimes a lot of people just find it easier to just divorce and to leave, which is really sad. But I also think it shows, you know, people always talk about the love languages, and, oh, our love language is matching up. So if my love language is words of affection, but you're not great with your words, and your love language is showing, you know, acts of service. It might be a mismatch, because I want to hear it, but you want to show it. I don't really care that you're showing it. I want to hear it. Do you think there's different grief languages?
- [47:44]
Ashley Lemieux
Yes. Oh, my gosh.
- [47:46]
Anna Kai
And what are they?
- [47:46]
Ashley Lemieux
Yes. So I don't know if there's names for the grief languages, but there's different phases, stages of grief that we can get totally stuck in. But for example, if you grew up never being taught how to express your emotions, and now you're in grief, and instead of Allowing yourself to express it. The opposite of that expression is anger and just being angry all the time. So you can have one spouse who's just angry all the time. They're slamming the doors. They have, like, shut themselves off from you. They're not emotionally available. They've never been modeled how to process through it. And maybe, and actually, I'll give you this example because statistically speaking, obviously, this does not apply for every man and every woman. But research shows us that men and women just biologically have different. And because of what society teaches us, men and women are and should be, we have different ways of coping. Men oftentimes do not want to talk about it. And instead what they do is they work more, they take on more projects, they're away from home more.
- [48:53]
Anna Kai
They distract.
- [48:53]
Ashley Lemieux
They distract. They want to just, like, move through it, suck it up big. You know, men don't cry type of thing. And women, we want to talk about it. We want someone to hear us. We want to talk about it over and over. And people sometimes will label that as being dramatic or just wanting attention. But what really, how we process is verbalizing and going through in our minds, what happened. Why did it happen? Am I safe continuing and existing in this world where scary things happen? Well, when you have one partner that's out of the house, working all the time, not talking about it, and another partner who needs to talk about it, we start creating stories in our minds of this isn't affecting you like it's affecting me, or you're just pushing it away, you're pushing me away. And that's one of, I think, the hardest languages of grief. And I actually just recently heard this. I wish I came up with this because it's so brilliant and beautiful, but I saw someone say that what grief is. Grief is a new language that must be learned. And as you learn your individual language of grief and then learn how to communicate with that, that with each other, then you're able to show up for how you need and for how your partner needs. But it takes so much communication and acknowledgement of your own emotions for that to happen.
- [50:18]
Anna Kai
Was your grief journey with Mike similar to that in the sense that you wanted to talk it out? And he was like, I'm gonna go to the office.
- [50:26]
Ashley Lemieux
He was in LA all the. At that time, his. I guess the details don't matter, but his company, the details always matter. They always matter. The company that he helped start up is sold to another company in la. And so he could work remote, which he was until things got really Hard. And then suddenly he was going to LA every week and I was just home with like the mess of what was going on. And I was getting a lot of resentment toward him and it was like he could go have this break and like this time and I was just like in the thick of this, just alone. And it's something now. And I share this because he's talked about it, that after the situation was over and he realized that that's how he was coping. It's something that he still says that he regrets most. So then when we lost Jace, how we grieved that loss was very different because of what had happened previously. We knew what each other needed and we knew what we individually needed more than we had known in the past. Even though you still have to figure it out every time.
- [51:36]
Anna Kai
Well, there's compromise. I'm sure you had to learn how to give him space to maybe go somewhere to process, and he had to learn how to be there with you to allow you time to chat it out. Essentially.
- [51:49]
Ashley Lemieux
Yeah. It was interesting though, because my pregnancy loss, I didn't want to talk about it actually then, like, I wanted. I kind of wanted to be an arm lengths away. I didn't want anyone to touch me. I didn't want. I wanted to feel free, but I felt trapped in my own body. And so then have a partner come and like get in my space. Just felt even more claustrophobic. And again, it's like the communication so that there's stories that aren't being told in. And one of the best pieces of advice I got is if you are in this situation where you know that you and your partner are just on different pages with how you are processing and dealing with things, being able to have a conversation where you're not. They don't feel like you're attacking them. This phrase, and I love using this phrase, you approach them with, hey, I've noticed your xyz. I noticed that you are at the office a lot during this time. Or I noticed that you are flying to LA a lot for work right now. The story I'm telling myself about this is that you don't want to be around me or that this loss that is devastating me, like you're already over it and that really hurts, whatever that is, and then following it with, is that true? And so being able to just have a conversation where you tell them what you're noticing, tell them how the story is that you're telling yourself, and then asking, opening the stage where you can like talk about it. Oh, My gosh, it's so healing. And so many relationships would have a path forward if we knew how to communicate this language of grief. But of course, we don't at first because it's so hard and new and messy.
- [53:33]
Anna Kai
That's incredible. And that's such a tangible thing that people can put into practice, not only with grief, but in any sort of argument in a relationship or disagreement. Like, hey, I notice you do this, and it makes me feel this way. I don't know if you mean that.
- [53:49]
Ashley Lemieux
Yeah.
- [53:49]
Anna Kai
Do you mean that? And more often than not, the answer is no. And if it's yes, then you have.
- [53:55]
Ashley Lemieux
Your, we gotta get you out of there.
- [53:56]
Anna Kai
Yeah, then leave. But it's so interesting because I feel like most people just jump to putting their meaning on your actions. So it's like, you know, well, you're at the office all the time, you clearly don't care about me, and then all of a sudden, they're on the defense already. Right. And so when we're on the defense, our natural instinct is just to armor up and it doesn't leave space for productive conversation. So that is really helpful to anybody in a relationship where they might not always see eye to eye. And especially just thinking about the way men and women work.
- [54:29]
Ashley Lemieux
Yes.
- [54:29]
Anna Kai
You know, it's like almost like I talk to my gay friends and they're like, it is easier in some regards because we are the same. We're operating on the same plane, sort of. You know, they're still different people. But it's like two women in a relationship understand the way women work, and two men in a relationship understand the way men work. Okay, so we've talked about this before, briefly on your podcast, but your ex.
- [54:56]
Ashley Lemieux
Boyfriend, I knew this was coming.
- [54:58]
Anna Kai
Oh, I had to. I was like, we did not dive into this nearly enough on your pod. Your ex boyfriend wanted you to wear a shock collar when you were in college.
- [55:09]
Ashley Lemieux
And I did it and you did it.
- [55:12]
Anna Kai
And before we dive into this a little deeper because it's, you know, it's such a shocking story.
- [55:20]
Ashley Lemieux
Shocking.
- [55:21]
Anna Kai
No pun intended. But how old were you when you dated this guy? And what was that relationship like? Was that the on off relationship you were talking about?
- [55:30]
Ashley Lemieux
No, this was a different one.
- [55:31]
Anna Kai
Okay. This was another fucked up one.
- [55:33]
Ashley Lemieux
You know, I've been through. I had a lot for getting married at the age of 23. I had a lot of crappy relationships, which is so bizarre to me. But I see, I was in college, so I probably was about between 19 and 21. 19, 20. I mean, I guess it wasn't on again, off again for like a little over a year. We dated for a while, but then broke up and then dated and then college. I don't. Who knows? It feels like so long ago also, which is crazy.
- [56:05]
Anna Kai
I mean, it kind of was. Honestly, I see college kids now, and I'm like, oh, I have aged. Despite the fact that I haven't noticed anything really that different. I mean, I have to dye my hair now, but I was like, I don't look like you. I don't like you.
- [56:18]
Ashley Lemieux
I'm like, I look like I could babysit you right now. I was just at a little cafe down the street right before this, and I guess it's by campus or something.
- [56:27]
Anna Kai
Everyone, you're close to nyu.
- [56:29]
Ashley Lemieux
Okay, that's where we are. Perfect. I was by nyu, but everyone. And I had my backpack that I was carrying around because I randomly have a backpack today. I was like, we're all wearing backpacks. One of us still does not belong here right now. And that person is. Is me. Like, I'm your mother.
- [56:45]
Anna Kai
Seriously, you could have been a young mom to one of those kids. Probably.
- [56:49]
Ashley Lemieux
Yes. Oh, yeah. I mean, I'm 37, so, yeah. I could have been 17. There, there.
- [56:54]
Anna Kai
So that actually probably happened in your, you know, religion, right?
- [56:59]
Ashley Lemieux
100%. Oh, yeah.
- [57:00]
Anna Kai
That was normal.
- [57:01]
Ashley Lemieux
Very normal.
- [57:01]
Anna Kai
Yeah, There we go.
- [57:03]
Ashley Lemieux
So.
- [57:03]
Anna Kai
So could have given birth to one of those backpacking ny.
- [57:07]
Ashley Lemieux
Back to the shock collar.
- [57:08]
Anna Kai
Yes.
- [57:09]
Ashley Lemieux
So, yeah, I was just this college young girl like so many of us have been, who just wanted to. Who gave up my needs so that someone else would want me. And I think that maybe that's the pattern that a lot of us find ourselves in is. I don't care. My needs aren't important because I just want you to want me. So. So anyways, the relationship was. I don't even know.
- [57:35]
Anna Kai
It just was nothing to write home about.
- [57:39]
Ashley Lemieux
I don't know. But he did meet my parents, so I guess it was.
- [57:43]
Anna Kai
Did they like him?
- [57:44]
Ashley Lemieux
And I met his. No. No, they didn't. Yeah, that was a big red flag.
- [57:52]
Anna Kai
Especially because with your parents, so. And they have your best interest at heart.
- [57:58]
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- [59:22]
Ashley Lemieux
His dad was in town, Actually, I'd met his parents multiple times too. His dad was in town. I think it was to go hunting. And they got a shot collar for their dog to go on the hunting trip. They got it. Telling the story is just so. It's just bottom of the barrel. You know what I mean?
- [59:40]
Anna Kai
We've all been there. We've all done something stupid for a.
- [59:43]
Ashley Lemieux
Man, but he's just like, I want to what this feels like on a person. I'm like, okay. He's like, I don't want to try it. It's like, do you want to try it? And I'm like, okay. Okay. It was like I was like the yes girl of okay, let's try this shock collar. So he put it on me and he shocked it. And that's. I mean, that's.
- [60:08]
Anna Kai
How did it feel?
- [60:09]
Ashley Lemieux
I mean, what do you think it felt like someone's shocking you in the neck, right?
- [60:14]
Anna Kai
Like, well, also, you don't have that fur. That's all protection.
- [60:19]
Ashley Lemieux
Protect your neck, he said. I said, cause there's different levels of it. So I remember him being like, I won't put it on the highest level. Thanks. Wow. That made the producer laugh. So you know that that's bad.
- [60:34]
Anna Kai
The awesome branch. Oh, my God.
- [60:36]
Ashley Lemieux
So, you know, I'm like, okay, I'll do it and just be the a cool girlfriend. And obviously it didn't work out. But you know what's interesting is that we remained just like, random friends on Facebook for. There was never, like, animosity there. So it wasn't like, I'M unfriending you on Facebook, which is what you did in college. Cause Facebook, it really mattered, right? So. But what I see now is that he's married with kids, and it looks like he has this great, you know, life for himself that he grew into. And so I always think about how interesting it is. Like, we can make these stupid decisions for ourselves in the moment, and then that person maybe later on is just in a different place of their life for someone else. But we can internalize that and be like, well, was it me, or was it. Was I not good enough? That's the story I hear from so many women of not being good enough. And it's like, no, right? Like, no.
- [61:38]
Anna Kai
Well, I always think. I used to think like this because I got into a very weird pattern of being the first girl a guy would date after getting out of an engagement or a very long relationship.
- [61:51]
Ashley Lemieux
And mine was the opposite. I was always the last girl before they got married.
- [61:55]
Anna Kai
Okay, so it's. But it's always sort of the same thing. And then I always felt like they were testing out the waters with me, and then they would feel like, okay, I can date again. And now I don't need Anna, so I'm gonna go out and meet somebody better than Anna. So I always felt like I never got the best version of the guy, but I was giving the best version of myself. And I have so many women who now DM me and saying, like, my. What you said, you know, I felt like he was such a jackass to me, and now he's this amazing partner to the next woman he was with. Like, what's wrong with me? And I always think something happened similarly to me right before I met my husband. And I remember thinking, oh, maybe if I'd just been the second or third girl he dated, it would have worked out because he got the best of me, truly. And I got the version of himself where he was figuring his shit out. Like, how is that fair? And what I realize now is, like, actually looking at my life now, six years later. He didn't get the best of me. The best was far yet to come. And so. But I couldn't become the best version of myself without leaving him or without him leaving me. Let's not put it, you know, he died. I did not leave him. That was not my choice.
- [63:07]
Ashley Lemieux
We can make the story be whatever you want, but, you know, it's like.
- [63:10]
Anna Kai
I could not be where I am today, living this life I am today, and I love my life, you know, without him leaving me. I look at his life now, and I'm thinking, it's not bad. He's married, I think, with a kid, and they're happy. But that was a life that was not for me. And I think God knew that. And that's what I've really always. I have, I think. Cause I look at my friends who are sometimes in relationships or marriages that they shouldn't be in that, you know, God or the universe has shown up in my life in so many ways, because he really has extricated the men that were not supposed to be in my life when I was too weak to do it myself. And they always left me. And you bet your ass I would have married every damn last one of them. And I would be 8,000 different religions at this point. And I really feel like there was a higher power kind of looking out for me when I was too weak to make those decisions. And that's what I think now. Like, my advice to people is, like, if you think it's bad luck, it's actually because there's a greater plan in store for you.
- [64:15]
Ashley Lemieux
It's like the phrase that I love, rejection is the protection.
- [64:19]
Anna Kai
Yes.
- [64:19]
Ashley Lemieux
And I feel the exact same way. That happened with me, too.
- [64:23]
Anna Kai
How did you go from being the girl that was like, yes, I'll put on a shock collar, to finally realizing that you deserve to find a person who respects you as an equal, who hears you? Because I think so much of the female experience here is that we need to unlearn the fact that our worth is tied to who wants us in the male gaze. I think so many of us, when we're younger attribute our worth to how many men find us attractive, when in fact, the actual only thing that makes us feel good is how attractive we find ourselves when we look in the mirror. So how did you go through that process of untying your worth to who wanted you?
- [65:04]
Ashley Lemieux
I remember that I had been cheated on again by someone who I really loved at the time. And I remember sitting on my bed just sobbing. And my mom came in, and she was just sitting on my bed with me. Like, this was one of the times that before this time, she'd always given me the books. He's really not. He's just not into you. What is that book?
- [65:26]
Anna Kai
He's just not that into you.
- [65:27]
Ashley Lemieux
He's just not that into you. Or like, these dating books, whatever. I remember she just sat there and she didn't say anything. And for whatever reason, it was like that was the final straw where I knew that I didn't want to live my life like that anymore. I couldn't fathom. Even though I was still young, I couldn't fathom living the rest of my life always trying to prove that I was who someone else wanted. And I made a decision that I never was going to be in a relationship ever again with someone who only wanted one foot in to keep the door open, then the whole rest of everything totally out. And that I was deserving of that. And I sometimes think, you know, I hear these phrases of, like, sometimes your reality, you have to get to this place where you just do not want it anymore. You cannot fathom having it anymore. And then that makes you finally change. And I think that's what it was for me. And so I started focusing on myself, and I started just wanting to become the type of person that I wanted to end up being with. And then after that, you know, the time would come where I would meet my husband who had also been on his own journey, because before me, he was the serial dater. And that's the other part of the story is, like, he was the guy who would just date the girls all the time, who would never commit.
- [66:55]
Anna Kai
He was the Chad.
- [66:55]
Ashley Lemieux
He was. He probably was the Chad. He never wanted to be a girlfriend. He never. I don't even know, like, if he would call anyone his girlfriend before me. He would never introduce anyone to his family. I mean, and he's the greatest human, greatest husband, greatest partner, greatest dad ever, right? But it's like we both had to go on the journey where when we met, that we were capable of being that version of ourselves, that it would connect. And even though he might have been a bad partner to the women before me, he. He was ready, and I was ready to choose something different. And so it wasn't easy, but that's what we chose and still choose every day to do together.
- [67:42]
Anna Kai
But I love that because I think that we're all collateral damage in everyone else's story. And I know I have acted poorly in relationships, and I. We're all the good and the bad guy at some point in our lives, right? And I think about the fact that maybe a lot of the guys that I talk about in my videos now, they went on from our relationship, and they didn't do that to the next woman. And that's great.
- [68:12]
Ashley Lemieux
And we hope that.
- [68:14]
Anna Kai
And we hope that, right? And maybe there are different people, because I certainly think the core of me is the same, but I think I had to get to what the core actually was through all those relationships. I remember when my ex. Ex left me before I met Dave, I really needed actually to be dumped by him because it was the first time that I finally felt like my life wasn't over because my boyfriend left me. Because it was the first time in my life that I was financially stable on my own. And so there was. I was sad, but it wasn't this sort of. I'm sad, and I'm really broke, and, like, I can't depend on my boyfriend for anything. I had, for the last two years, been building up my career in real estate, and I felt really good. I was like, I love my job. I have disposable income for the first time. I'm paying my way through life. And I just remember thinking when he left me, I was like, I'm gonna be okay. I'm really sad. But I'm also so invested in all these other aspects of my life, and there was a freedom there that I was like, I probably needed that to happen, because then and only then could I go into meeting my husband fully as a fully formed human being being like, I want a partner, but I don't need a partner to survive. Right?
- [69:31]
Ashley Lemieux
Yes.
- [69:32]
Anna Kai
Okay. So when we go through a breakup, which is a loss, I think the biggest loss that we feel is the loss of ourselves. We feel like we just lost a piece of ourselves, which I felt time and time again. I'm sure you felt before you met Mike. And that's the thing that most people say when they're asking for advice from me, is like, I feel like I just lost this huge part of my identity. And I rem. I can't remember where I read this, but I used to tell myself this all the time when I would feel this loss. I'm like, be a fucking starfish. And let me explain what you.
- [70:06]
Ashley Lemieux
I feel like I love this already.
- [70:08]
Anna Kai
I was like, just be a starfish. You are a starfish. So I learned that starfish, they're one of the most incredibly resilient creatures on this earth. They can lose most of their body and still survive and regenerate as long as the central disc and one arm remains. Okay, so they can completely recover. Which is wild thinking about that, because that's essentially saying, okay, well, if we lost everything, but we still had our torso and our arm, we could regenerate the rest of us. But it can take up to a year for them to completely recover from that. And so I always remember that I was like, okay, Starfish can literally go through getting whatever 80% of their body eaten off and come Back and be a whole starfish again. And I would just kind of tell myself this every now and then to remind myself that I have the ability to regenerate as well, emotionally. Right. I'm cheesy as fuck, but this is.
- [71:09]
Ashley Lemieux
How my mind works so much.
- [71:10]
Anna Kai
I was like, I need to work in metaphor. So I was like, baby, you're a starfish. Insert that joke right there. Okay, so were there any stories that you told yourself or any little things that you kind of had to remind yourself of during your darkest days of loss where you were, like, this silly little analogy or story, help me survive?
- [71:33]
Ashley Lemieux
That's such a good question. But first of all, I feel like you need to make merch, and it needs to say, be a starfish, or I'm a starfish. Can that come? I just feel like I want a shirt right now that says, be a starfish, and I would wear it everywhere.
- [71:49]
Anna Kai
Okay. Yes.
- [71:49]
Ashley Lemieux
Sorry. Just put that in the work. I. Yeah. If this happens. This was created here on this podcast episode, and I'm not right now. Was there anything. Man, you know, I. I don't know. I. To be totally honest, I feel like there were a lot of days that were harder and darker than. There were days that were bright and hopeful. And I remember one day looking at my niece and nephew, who were little at the time. They had to have been, like, one in three. So this was, you know, seven. Seven years ago. And I remember looking at them and telling myself, I want to be here for them as the best version of me. When they get older, I want them to remember me, and I want them to remember an auntie who they loved being around. And in order to do that means that I have to commit to staying here, and I also have to commit to rebuilding who I am so that I can find that light again. So I wish I had, like, this story, you know, maybe that I could pass on. But the reality of it for me was I just had to take it one day at a time. And I found the people for at the moment that got me through until the person who could get me through was myself. And that's. I think when I noticed that I was healing, was that it no longer was just for other people, but it was for me. And that has just taken me one little decision at a time.
- [73:43]
Anna Kai
That's great. Well, thankfully, you actually do have a child now, so you have a daughter.
- [73:50]
Ashley Lemieux
Yes.
- [73:50]
Anna Kai
And you've recently talked about how you're not sure if you can go through pregnancy again and how it sounds like the answer Is no.
- [73:59]
Ashley Lemieux
Yeah. Right.
- [74:01]
Anna Kai
So she's gonna be an only child.
- [74:03]
Ashley Lemieux
She'll be an only child. And, man, it's so hard because I would love to have another baby. And I also know what happens to my body when I'm pregnant. And now that.
- [74:14]
Anna Kai
Yeah, sepsis.
- [74:15]
Ashley Lemieux
Yeah, sepsis. Right. And now I'm like, there's more to lose. Right. Like, she's here and to go through a third pregnancy. I'm also 37, and not that that's old, but the recovery, like, it's just different now. If I could go into a pregnancy knowing that'd be healthy and okay, yes, sign me up, I want another baby. But I think that that's something that I've kind of had to grieve of just knowing it's not what I thought it was going to be. But damn, it's still so good. And I just want to enjoy it instead of being in this mindset of just waiting for that next milestone or that next thing that's going to make me happy. So it's actually for this. We're here in New York and going back to what we had talked about about, like, time just becomes more. More just palpable. Like, I'm just so more aware of how I spend my time. I always have said my whole life, one day I'm gonna have a daughter and, like, on her 10th, going to have this dream New York City trip. I want to take my kids, like, to wherever they want to go on their 10th birthday. That's always been my thing, as I was planning to come to New York. You know, my daughter's only two, but, like, so strongly, just in my heart, I was like, why do I have to wait till she's 10? I've waited so long for her to be here. We're going to go, and we're going to go right now. And it has been the funnest trip ever. And even though she's so little, anytime we. We've gone to do something, she looks at me and she goes, this is so fun. She's like, starting to string her sentences and it's just been this moment of, yeah, life doesn't look how I thought it was going to be to. But it is so good.
- [76:05]
Anna Kai
And you don't need to wait to start living. You don't need to wait till she's 10. You can just do it now.
- [76:09]
Ashley Lemieux
Yeah. Or until we have another baby.
- [76:10]
Anna Kai
Or what. That.
- [76:11]
Ashley Lemieux
It's like, this is our. This is it.
- [76:13]
Anna Kai
That's amazing. Well, this isn't so much a question as it just is sort of a statement of reinsurance as an only child and an only daughter. Because I know you had said that the fear of your daughter being an only child is that she's gonna be alone one day, because eventually, you know, you and Mike, presumably, if things go according to plan, would pass before her. And I want you to know from the other side that I loved being an only child. I am incredibly close with my parents in a way that most people aren't. They are my best friends, you know, and I love my husband.
- [76:54]
Ashley Lemieux
I love mom and dad.
- [76:56]
Anna Kai
I love my mom and dad. I'm so close with them. And, you know, our. Our house, even though our family was so small, we have no relatives in the US Was filled with so much love that I have found was even more so than traditionally big families that I've experienced of my friends and peers. And that's not to say that every big family is a real life version of succession and everyone hates one another and all of that. It's just to say that just because there's less people doesn't mean there's less love.
- [77:30]
Ashley Lemieux
Yes, I love that.
- [77:32]
Anna Kai
But also, you know, I think that. That your daughter will one day find a partner in crime and that will become her physical family when you and Mike are her spiritual family one day. And so I just want you to know that she's gonna be okay as an only child, because I love my life as an only child. And in some ways, it's made life a lot easier as an adult because my parents are nearing retirement and they live outside of Philly. Right now we're in Connecticut, and they're gonna move closer to be near us and be nearer to our eventual grandchild one day. Whereas if I had a sibling that was living in California, I mean, they're not gonna do that. They can't pick and choose.
- [78:14]
Ashley Lemieux
Well, we're following her across the country, so I'm glad that you. There we go. I will be where you are.
- [78:19]
Anna Kai
My dream is a family compound. I want to live next door to her.
- [78:23]
Ashley Lemieux
We talk about this all the time. It sounds like my dream come true, honestly.
- [78:27]
Anna Kai
Like, my dream is to have a little girl and, like, repeat the same thing. And Dave and I are also thinking about only having one child, mostly because I haven't tried to get pregnant yet. So I don't know what that experience is going to be like. So hopefully we can even have one naturally. But also because I think at two children, we've heard from people that somebody's career takes a hit it just becomes very difficult. One child is very easy to manage because there's always somebody you can kind of relay between the two.
- [79:00]
Ashley Lemieux
Tag team.
- [79:00]
Anna Kai
Yeah, exactly. And so I think it's interesting that our society here has sort of put upon all of us that we should have more than one child. And it's a very western thing because I don't know if you know this about China, for a very long time there was a one child policy. So my generation, our generation of people in China, they're all only children. It's only recently have they started enacting okay, you can have more than one child. Because now, now the population is not doing well because we had this for decades. And so it's a very western societal pressure that we need to have more than one child because one child isn't enough. I don't know where that comes from. But I also wanna say that, you know, I think there's this assumption that only children are really selfish and weird and socially maladapted and everything. And I'm very fucked up. So this is not to say that I'm not fucked up because I'm an only child. I am fucked up in many different way. Ways. But I will say that I've met plenty of people who have siblings who are equally as fucked up as I am. Because I believe that like having a brother or sister doesn't automatically make you a well adjusted human, that you can be a selfish prick even if your parents taught you to share with your siblings growing up.
- [80:23]
Ashley Lemieux
Oh, of course. And, and I know so many people, I have so many friends, family who have siblings and there's not a solid relationship there. So a lot of people will be like, well, don't you want to give her a sibling? It's like, well, there's no guarantee if there's an ideal situation. But yeah, we don't get to choose how anything works out. So I love that you just shared all that with me. Thank you.
- [80:46]
Anna Kai
We see very fucked up sibling relationships where at best there's no relationship. So it's not antagonistic. It's just we don't really talk. We're very different people. That's, you know, it's almost like a cordial relationship, which is sad.
- [81:01]
Ashley Lemieux
So sad.
- [81:02]
Anna Kai
And at worst it's very, very hostile. And then I see on, you know, the older our parents generation, I know friends, parents who have terrible relationships with their siblings and then when the parents pass away and there's anything to inherit and split up, it gets very ugly because everyone's just in it for themselves. And they hated the sibling anyways to begin with. And so it does make it easier to be an only child in many ways. And I don't think she's going to look, she is going to be well adjusted if you raise her to be that way, not because she has a sibling running around annoying her. Right. So I wanna end on this question. I think rejection and success are two sides of the same coin. And you cover a lot facets in your content online. You talk about obviously grief and loss, but you also talk about body positivity and how you're the happiest you've ever been, even though you're heavier than you were when you were in the depths of your grief and everybody was like, oh my God, you look so great, you're so skinny. You're like, I haven't eaten because I'm depressed in three months. Do you. Is there a rejection that you faced that you really felt was a pivotal point for you? Because you were like. That kind of changed the gears in my head and led me to this awesome life I'm living today.
- [82:25]
Ashley Lemieux
I think there's been multiple times, but the one that really sticks out is after we went through a first big loss. It was in 2017. And my dream, my whole life has been to be an author. It's why I started a blog back. I mean, this was before social media started like blogspot.com. i was starting my blog when blogging kind of became a thing. So I wanted to have an online community that I could pour into and then one day maybe I'd be a published author. Author. And I had gotten a top literary agent who had found me in 2017 and we made a book proposal together that took a whole year. And I mean, this was the type of agent who was getting like high six, seven figure deals for clients, like, was not taking them unless he knew for certain.
- [83:14]
Anna Kai
Right.
- [83:15]
Ashley Lemieux
He'd be getting you a big check. So I was so excited. And the final. So in the publishing world, what happens is your book proposal, meaning, like what you want to write the book about and you put some chapters together, it goes to bid. And the publishers have the opportunity to bid, meaning this is. They'll tell you what they want to pay for it if they want to pick you up. And usually if you have an agent, it means like you're going to get picked up because they don't waste their time. So it's the last day of bid and we're waiting for this publishing house who had expressed a lot of interest to send over their final bid and the other ones had passed because of some of the things in the book they wanted me to do that I just in integrity didn't want to do. And so I was like, I'm gonna hold true to me and not do this. Anyways, the day came and my husband and I had planned a trip to Europe for two weeks to like celebrate this book that I was gonna be writing. We were leaving the next morning. It came and we got an email from the agent, my publisher that or the publisher we had wanted that said, you know, after thinking about it, after taking this to all the internal team. So sorry, but we're, we're gonna have to pass on this right now. And I remember feeling so. Oh my gosh, there was, there was like nothing left for me to give the world or myself. We went to Europe, I moped also, had a great time, ate a lot of pasta. You know, I'm like, all right, lose the place, it's okay. But it was that moment where for myself for the first time in a while was like, I don't actually need a top publisher for me to write a book. So what happened was I wrote my book anyway. We launched it internally. We put my team put on this was pre pandemic. It was actually right in 2019, started 2020. My team and PR company, we put on a whole book tour, sold out. We hit bestseller lists as a self published author, which is like that's wild. Crazy. And so then I ended up getting two book deals with the same publisher who first rejected me. But it was this moment of like finding that fire again in myself that I had been missing. To finally be like, I don't need to keep waiting for other people to accept or approve of what I'm wanting to do. I can do it either way. And that and then seeing the result of that has really helped me keep moving everything that I'm working on Forward. Word.
- [86:01]
Anna Kai
That is so inspirational. What a way to end. Thank you so much for being here. Where can people find you?
- [86:08]
Ashley Lemieux
You can come find me. I love connecting online on Instagram, my community. There is Ashley K. Lemieux. It's my name. You can find my podcast wherever you listen to your podcast. It's called Healing Her. There's actually a great episode on there with Anna, so you can go listen and can't wait to meet you guys.
- [86:26]
Anna Kai
Thank you so much.
- [86:27]
Ashley Lemieux
Thanks for having me.
- [86:28]
Anna Kai
Geico's motorcycle expertise means I'm covered by people who know bikes like I do. I'm happy as a clam?
- [86:35]
Ashley Lemieux
No, conclusive scientific research has shown clams can experience happiness.
- [86:38]
Anna Kai
I just meant that I feel really.
- [86:39]
Ashley Lemieux
Good about my coverage. I mean, even if you took the clam out for the best day ever, visiting the zoo, taking a scenic ride, knowing you're insured by specialists, and sharing a strawberry ice cream cone together, the clam would not feel happy and your strawberry cone would taste sort of clammy. Geico's motorcycle specialists who know bikes like you to assume no liability for clammy ice cream cones. Geico expertise for your motorcycle.