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- [00:00]
A
This episode is brought to you by Progressive Insurance.
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B
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Not available in all states. My dad works in B2B marketing. He came by my school for career day and said he was a big roas man. Then he told everyone how much he.
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A
Loved calculating his return on ad spend.
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B
My friends still laugh at me to this day.
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A
Not everyone gets B2B, but with LinkedIn you'll be able to reach people who do. Get a hundred dollar credit. On your next ad campaign, go to LinkedIn.com campaigntoclaimyourcredit. That's LinkedIn.com campaign.
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B
Terms and conditions apply.
- [00:51]
A
LinkedIn the place to be, to be. Welcome to Brutally Anna, a podcast about finding love, losing love, and all the things we think about but don't talk about Enough. I'm your host, Anna K. AKA maybe both across social media, here to remind you that life can be beautiful even when it's freaking brutal. Back in 2022, y'all may have heard of the viral phrase jello skin, which is the term used to describe bouncy and hydrated skin coined by skincare influencer Ava Lee. But what you may not know is that Ava only started documenting her Skincare in 2018 as a creative outlet from her career in finance. Ava, I am so excited to talk to you today. What we're going to focus on today is the power of reinvention and not being limited by your current identity.
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B
I love that. I have gone through so many reinventions, so there's a lot to dive into.
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A
I first want to go back to the beginning. You have a very unique upbringing that I learned recently. You are 100% Korean, but you were raised in China.
- [01:54]
B
Yes.
- [01:55]
A
And then you went to college in the us. You went to Notre Dame, which nothing.
- [01:59]
B
Probably one of the whitest school.
- [02:01]
A
Okay, yes, thank you. I was like, that's random as fuck for a girl who grew up in China. So take me back. What was that like?
- [02:09]
B
So I was born in Korea. Both my parents are 100% Korean. I actually did a recent DNA test and apparently I'm 100% Korean. Not even 99.9%. So I am as Korean as can be. But I moved to China when I was 2 years old because of my dad's job. Um, we basically immigrated there and spent my entire life in China. Just between since and Korea. But that was another interesting experience because I was a foreigner, right? So I feel like I've been a foreigner everywhere I go. Even though I call China my home, it's still not my home. Home country. Right. I still relate to being a Korean a little bit more. But I did go to an American middle school and high school in Shanghai, which is how I was able to learn my English there and also fluent in Korean and Chinese, because outside of school, we speak Mandarin and Korean. And then when it was time for me to go to college, a lot of people from my high school go to American colleges. And mind you, if in order to go to our school in China, you have to be Chinese American. So there aren't Chinese people with Chinese citizenships. That's not allowed for an American school in order for you to.
- [03:19]
A
So you have to be foreign. You have to be to China in order to go to another school. So technically, I could have gone to an American school because even though I'm Chinese, I'm American.
- [03:28]
B
So all my friends were American, Chinese American, Asian American. And they all already had ties to the US they were born there or, like, lived there before. And I was, like, one of the few people who've never even been to the U.S. like, I've never even visited the U.S. until I stepped foot in Notre Dame. That's wild. It's why I, like, you know, people are like, go. They visit college campuses and see where they want to be at.
- [03:53]
A
Like, oh, you didn't even visit.
- [03:54]
B
I didn't even visit. I was, like, looking at images online of my ideal college life. And, of course, being the Asian family, like, I applied to the Ivies, and I thought, like, maybe, like, Georgetown, nyu, Columbia, these would be my schools. But then, so random. A college counselor, an admissions counselor from Notre Dame came to my school. This was the first time he came, and he was talking about how if you come to us, you can have the actual, true American college life in the middle of nowhere. You can watch football.
- [04:28]
A
He sold you on South Bend, Indiana.
- [04:30]
B
Sold me.
- [04:30]
A
Damn. That guy needs a raise.
- [04:32]
B
Yeah. He literally saw me because I was like, at that point, I've only been in Asia. Like, as I told you, I didn't really go on family vacations, right? So I was like, I'm so sick of this environment. I want to go somewhere where, like, no one even knows who I am or, like, I want to be the only Asian. Like, that was, like, what? Like, kind of sold me at that point. Even though I was so steadfast. On going to Georgetown. So, yeah, I was like, you know what? This is going to be a new change. That finally actually was when I changed my name to Ava. I was not. You did not know this. I didn't know this. You didn't know this.
- [05:05]
A
What's your.
- [05:06]
B
My real name, my legal name is Juwon in literally every single document. But my friend, my best friend and I, her name is Ji Won. My name's Juwon. And she ended up going to Northwestern. I went to Notre Dame. All Chicago area, we were like, you know, these people are not going to be able to pronounce their names. We should just change our name. So she had the idea first, and I was like, jotting down all these different name ideas, and I named myself Ava. So this is a reinvention.
- [05:35]
A
Wait, wait. Is it your legal name now or is that just what you tell white people?
- [05:39]
B
White people? Oh, my legal name is still Juwon.
- [05:43]
A
Okay, so your passport, all your documents, everything, when you sign a contract, they're like, ju On.
- [05:47]
B
Yes.
- [05:48]
A
Okay, so is it J U J.
- [05:50]
B
O O W O N J O.
- [05:52]
A
O W O N J Won Lee? All right, now I know that I start calling you Joan from now on. Does your husband call you Juwon?
- [05:58]
B
No.
- [05:59]
A
Okay.
- [05:59]
B
So whenever. My parents. My parents obviously still call me Juwon.
- [06:02]
A
Right?
- [06:03]
B
And my husband here, he's like, what? And I run into my high school friends a lot too, and they always call me Joo Won. Right.
- [06:09]
A
Because that was. I was actually speaking before the reinvention.
- [06:12]
B
Right. It's the reinvention. I was at Columbia Business School yesterday giving a talk. And someone who went to my high.
- [06:17]
A
School flex, by the way, amazing.
- [06:19]
B
Thank you.
- [06:20]
A
So cool.
- [06:21]
B
But someone from my high school was there at the panel.
- [06:25]
A
Oh.
- [06:25]
B
And she came up to me and she was like, hey, do you remember me? And I was like, yes, I actually remember you. We played rugby together, first of all.
- [06:32]
A
You played rugby?
- [06:33]
B
I did.
- [06:33]
A
Okay, so if you guys are watching this, you understand how weird it is that Ava used to play?
- [06:39]
B
Yeah, I don't tell that to a lot of people. They're like, what?
- [06:42]
A
So did you literally just pick Ava out of, like, a baby name finder on Google? And you're like, this sounds great.
- [06:47]
B
No, literally, that's why you don't see any Ava's that are our age group. But Ava was one of the popular names that was going to be trending back then. So I was like, you know what?
- [06:57]
A
You are ahead of the gang. You were like, I like this. And it's easy.
- [07:02]
B
It's so easy, Ava Lee. It has that flow. It does, yeah. So. And I think, like, having that name change so odd gave me that confidence boost when I came to the U.S. like, that name change was critical in my life.
- [07:19]
A
So you changed it and you came here to Notre Dame, and you were.
- [07:22]
B
Like, my name is Ava.
- [07:24]
A
My name is Ava and I'm in South Bend, Indiana. You said you wanted to be, like, the only Asian person in South Bend, which I think is interesting, because my whole life, I have always been struggling to find people who look like me. I grew up in Pennsylvania, so I feel like I had the opposite struggle. But you went to school in Asia. I mean, it doesn't sound like you were surrounded by a ton of Korean people, but, like, at least you were surrounded by people who look like you, right?
- [07:51]
B
Yes, exactly.
- [07:52]
A
So you were used to that. And you were like, I just want to be like a fish out of water. Were you scared? What was the first day week? What? Like?
- [08:00]
B
Okay, so I think I had this glamorized idea of the United States of America.
- [08:06]
A
Oh, they totally sold you on.
- [08:08]
B
I took AP U.S. history, and, like, all this stuff, and I'm like, oh, my God, America might be amazing. I, by the way, went to college by myself. My parents didn't even come with me, so I had two suitcases, and I went from Shanghai to Chicago by myself for college. And then you have to take this wanky bus from Chicago to Notre Dame. It's like a three hour bus.
- [08:30]
A
That's not shocking because there's no, like, airport near South Bend.
- [08:35]
B
And mind you, this is literally my first time in America. And I land in Chicago O'Hare Airport, and it's so dingy and gross. I'm used to Asian airports.
- [08:45]
A
Okay? That is true. All Asian public transportation systems are so much nicer.
- [08:49]
B
So much nicer. And, like, the only thing I see is a McDonald's, and I'm starving after this flight. And I'm like, I cannot believe my first meal is literally McDonald's right now.
- [08:59]
A
That's actually very American, though. Very on brand.
- [09:01]
B
Very on brand. I took the bus. I found the bus somehow. And I'm taking this to South Bend, Indiana. And I'm like, slowly. I'm only seeing literal greens and cows. And I was like, oh, my God, I made a mistake. I made a mistake. I made a mistake. Because I've only lived in the city my whole life. I haven't seen greens. Right?
- [09:21]
A
You're like, I don't know what the color green is.
- [09:24]
B
No. And this is like, what 15 years ago, we didn't have cell phones. We had cell phones, but there was no face.
- [09:31]
A
That was like the first. You and I are exactly the same age.
- [09:34]
B
Yeah.
- [09:34]
A
So that was like the first iteration of the iPhone when we went to college, because I remember my freshman year, somebody had the first iPhone and it had GPS on it. And we were trying to go to a warehouse house party in Brooklyn. Very NYU of us. Right. And this freaking GPS led us to literally our grave. I was like, this place, we're about to get murdered here. It was just literally a random building somewhere. So, yes, I understand. You were not like, hey, let me go online or share this or, you.
- [10:02]
B
Know, call my family. No, it's not like that. Because I didn't even have a phone at that point because I was gonna buy a new phone in the U.S. right? Like, I'm literally foreign. I don't have a phone. And the only way to even call my mom is to get set up on WI Fi and use Skype. Right? So my mom is dying at this point. She's like, has she arrived or not? I get to campus somehow. And then my second meal was Chipotle. Also very on brand. Right. And I found my way to campus. And it was hard in the beginning, but I did actually kind of enjoy being like, the only Asian for a bit. You know, people thought it was, like, cool.
- [10:39]
A
You're the token Asian.
- [10:40]
B
Token Asian, yeah. But at the same time, it was hard because I think, and I don't blame anyone for this, because even after four years of college with, like, my really close friends, people thought. Still thought I was Chinese. I'm like, no, I'm not Chinese. I am Korean, grew up in China. Right. But they just don't get these kinds of concepts. Right, right.
- [11:03]
A
Yeah. You know, and I think it's probably better these days, but 15 years ago.
- [11:08]
B
Yeah, like, a lot of these kids, they haven't even left the US and same thing as me, like, a lot.
- [11:12]
A
Of people have never seen, like, a non white person. And I think, and I don't mean to say that in a disparaging way, I just mean to say it's like how you had probably never seen certain ethnicities growing up in China.
- [11:24]
B
It's just like, I've never seen a Jewish person. Right, yeah, same thing.
- [11:28]
A
Yeah. And it would be confusing, like, if I had never seen a white person in my life and you tried to describe the difference between somebody who is Irish and Scottish, I'd be like, I don't comprehend everybody's pale, you know, so that's interesting. Did you feel like it was an accepting place, though, despite the fact that maybe people are a little bit unknowingly, like, ignorant to the differences between Chinese and Korean culture? Because I'm Chinese, you're Korean. We know that there are huge cultural differences.
- [11:55]
B
It was actually very accepting.
- [11:56]
A
That's so interesting.
- [11:57]
B
Yeah. Maybe I got lucky and I. Maybe. Or maybe I just found people who thought would be more accepting of me. Like, it's not like I was best friends with everyone. Some people just don't get it, or they just don't even want to be, like, friends with me. But my group of friends were just all very, like, nice, good people.
- [12:14]
A
Somebody that you were friends with, you said was from Connecticut, where I live.
- [12:17]
B
Yes.
- [12:18]
A
And she went home with her during the holidays because you didn't obviously, fly home, because it was crazy and things.
- [12:23]
B
Like, her parents were also so understanding of the fact that my parents didn't live here. Like, I'm just so grateful for people like that.
- [12:30]
A
Did you ever feel like, a point that you didn't belong or kind of have you always just gravitated towards the people you needed to find in your life every day?
- [12:38]
B
I knew that I didn't belong. I do not belong here. But I try my best to assimilate. Right. Because Notre Dame is a school where generations and generations and generations of people go there. So it's like a family history. So, like, most of my friends, their parents would have gone to Notre Dame, and every single football game, their parents come and they tailgate. It's a very. One of the most generational schools, I think. And because, like, I don't have any ties to this, that was kind of hard. And to feel like I really belong here. I'm like, do I really belong here? When, like, my parents didn't go here, where, like, my parents haven't even heard of Notre Dame before, that was a little hard. And even after graduating school, I was like, I don't really need to go back to school every single game. But, like, my friends would. Right, Right. Like, it's a different kind of belonging that I still don't have.
- [13:32]
A
So it sounds like you were like, I don't belong. But that doesn't mean I can't appreciate this experience for what it is, which I think is really interesting, because I've always felt, like, a deep need to belong right anywhere. And I think maybe that's, like, a really interesting concept. It's like, you can be like, I am different from these people, but I can still find Some sort of a home here. I can find a way to relate. And it's interesting that you said, you know, I always find a way to assimilate. But you still maintained your Korean identity. Like, I look at you and you're like, very Korean to me. You know, we talk about this all the time where it's like, I can tell you were not born in the US where you were like, oh, I can tell you sound white.
- [14:12]
B
Yeah.
- [14:13]
A
And my husband, who is 100% Korean, sounds very white. If you just listened to us on the phone, you wouldn't know that we were Asian. And I remember that growing up is that like I would call people because English is my parents second language. And so when I got to an age where it's appropriate to do so, I used to pretend to be my mom because my English was better. So I used to like call like the phone company for them. And I remember I called my school one time and I think my teacher was like, oh, I didn't realize because they heard my last name, they were like, oh, I didn't realize you were Asian. Did you maintain a sense of identity but also try to assimilate at the same time? Because it feels like it's a very kind of opposing idea.
- [14:54]
B
Well, I didn't. Now you see me, you know, way past 10 years after graduating college, where I finally feel more like myself and like accepting of my identity. But when you're in your 18, 19, like, you just want to fit in the best you can, right? So I try to be white. I try to be so white. And being in Notre Dame probably didn't help. But, you know, towards the end of, you know, my four years, or even after my four years, I was trying to be like that Connecticut, Rhode island girl, like, literally wearing Lily Pulitzer and like cape, going to Cape Cod. And I was like, you were like.
- [15:29]
A
Vineyard vines, tattoo, the whale on my everywhere.
- [15:34]
B
I was like. And I was wearing Patagonia vest because I, of course I went to finance after college too, Right. So I'm surrounded by these lacrosse guys too. And I was like, that's another way I had to fit in. Yet once again, that's like the only female in the office, right? So there were so many ways I had to assimilate. And I just tried to not be Korean. I tried to hide my Korean identity from my friends or even like the white guys I was dating and stuff. I tried to hide white guys.
- [16:01]
A
Mm, shocking. Yeah, you're so Korean.
- [16:04]
B
Like my elderly phase where I was like wearing my Lily Pulitzer or And trying to take bite guys too. It took a long time for me to. A really long time actually, to be like, I don't. This is not me. It's beyond the fashion. It just truly goes beyond, like, even the food, right?
- [16:23]
A
Yeah, we don't like no food as much.
- [16:26]
B
I want a big bro, like bone broth with noodles. Not a bacon, egg, cheese, boiled fruit.
- [16:32]
A
I saw that on your glow without Ava. Ava boils her fruit, which is a very Asian thing to do because Asians don't eat raw things. Speaking of cultural shock, my parents said that when they first came here, one of the biggest things that they had to adjust to is the fact that Americans eat salads.
- [16:48]
B
You guys, I never ate salads growing up. I literally never ate salads.
- [16:52]
A
My dad, he goes, we looked at iceberg lettuce when we first came here. And we're like, this is what we feed livestock in China. So, okay, you graduated Notre Dame or did you come right to New York after graduation?
- [17:03]
B
Yes. I was like, I cannot be in South Bend anymore. Okay. I was ready.
- [17:07]
A
Four years was enough.
- [17:08]
B
Yeah. I was ready for a grimy city. I was ready for anything.
- [17:11]
A
So you went directly into finance. Did you start off, like, the analyst path is that you were an intern and every. I entered a very traditional path.
- [17:19]
B
Yeah. So after my junior year, I interned at an investment bank. And right after college, I got a full time offer and I went straight into investment banking, which is ideal.
- [17:29]
A
Like, I remember looking at the banking kids at NYU when I was graduating and I was like, they have their path set for them. They are already successful. Like, everybody wanted those analyst banking jobs. Were you like, this is it. This is my identity. I'm going into investment banking. And I bet your parents were happy.
- [17:48]
B
They were happy. But honestly, I wasn't. I was going to be a diplomat my whole life. The reason I went to. I almost went to Georgetown was because I wanted to be a diplomat working at, like, the United Nations. Like, that was my dream job. And I never even thought about having, like, a job because I was like, I'm just going to work for the government or something. And I actually.
- [18:06]
A
Bridging cultures. Bridging Bop.
- [18:09]
B
Bridging cultures was what I wanted to do.
- [18:11]
A
That was. Yeah.
- [18:12]
B
My whole life. And I ended up spending six months in Washington, D.C. okay. And after that, that was like another culture shock. I was like, this is. I cannot do politics in America. That was the biggest culture shock. I did not like Washington, D.C. i couldn't find. I couldn't even find a way to fathom a career in politics at all?
- [18:33]
A
Was it because there was politics in politics?
- [18:35]
B
Right?
- [18:35]
A
Yeah.
- [18:36]
B
And I worked at a lobbyist firm, too, so that probably didn't help. But, yeah, after that, I came back, and all my friends were like, we are studying for, you know, investment banking interviews. And I was like, wait, what is investment banking? Like, I. I was so lost after six months of being away when everyone's been studying for this for the last six months, and I was like, oh, really? Does that mean I can move to New York? So I. I had two weeks of just cram everything in, and I worked my butt off.
- [19:02]
A
Those are really hard jobs to get, especially, like, right out of college. And also my understanding is that most of those firms like to take kids from the Ivies and big schools. Like Notre Dame is kind of at a left field.
- [19:14]
B
Also, I'm not an American citizen, so.
- [19:16]
A
They had to hire me.
- [19:17]
B
They sponsor me. They have to pay a lot more for me. So, like, that's another aspect. Usually they won't even look at my resume stuff.
- [19:24]
A
So it was an achievement for you to get to this step?
- [19:27]
B
It really was a big achievement.
- [19:28]
A
Were you proud of yourself or you're like, this is just a means to an end?
- [19:31]
B
No, I was proud of myself.
- [19:32]
A
You were proud?
- [19:32]
B
Yeah.
- [19:33]
A
Are you a US Citizen now or are you not? You're not.
- [19:35]
B
I'm a Korean citizen still.
- [19:36]
A
You're a Korean citizen, but, like, how does the visa work? Because you're an independent contractor now, right?
- [19:41]
B
I have a. I'm in the process of getting a green card through my husband.
- [19:44]
A
Oh, right, right, right. That's why you married. No, I'm joking.
- [19:46]
B
Yeah.
- [19:49]
A
In 2018, which is six years ago. You were like, this career, it's fulfilling my bank account, maybe, but not fulfilling my soul. I read that you were like, I needed a creative outlet. I needed to talk about my interests, and I was surrounded by men.
- [20:04]
B
This was in my private equity job, and I was working at a smaller PE shop. And once again, the only woman. And I. I didn't mind it. Okay. You know, like, it wasn't like, I was like, I want to quit. You know, I. I thought this was going to be my entire life. I was determined to just stay in finance.
- [20:22]
A
Right. Because I remember reading you were saying, I thought this was going to be the rest of my life. So it's like, oh, she didn't hate it. Like, a lot of people are like, oh, I hated my job. That's why I decided to try social media.
- [20:31]
B
No, I truly didn't Hate it. And it paid well. I had a good kind of gig going on, but it was just more like the mundane things every day. And I will say, being a woman in finance is not easy. It is truly not easy because there were so many opportunities or meetings that I had to prepare for. But I didn't get to go to the meetings because my bosses were like, well, if I'm going to take a car with someone for two hours, I'd rather take a guy kind of thing. Or. Or like, the guy can schmooze the client better. So, like, I was like, typical.
- [20:59]
A
That relatability thing, it's like the old boys club, right? It's like they can talk about, like, sports.
- [21:03]
B
Exactly.
- [21:03]
A
And you're like, but I used to play rugby and I went to Notre Dame. Take me.
- [21:09]
B
The only annoying part was, like, they made me do all the hard work because I'm the girl who does the math. And, like, you know, models behind the scenes and PowerPoints make it pretty. But then they fucking take the decks and go to the meetings. You know, those were the frustrating parts. But I still was okay just working my butt off. But I think at that point I was like, I want to do something a little bit more. And back then, I was not a social media person. I never took pictures or posted. Like, I was taking food pictures only. But I did like skincare. So I had, what, two weeks vacation every year. And I couldn't go on vacation because I had to use up all two weeks on Korea and China.
- [21:46]
A
Okay?
- [21:47]
B
So once a year, I go and I would bring back, literally, a suitcase full of two suitcases full of skincare to give to my friends. And even back in Notre Dame, because people didn't know, like, hey, Beauty back then. And I still loved having sheet masks. So I was already influencing before. Influencing was a thing to my very small group of friends. That's always been my life since college until work life. I give sheet masks to my assistants at my jobs and stuff. So that was, like, kind of what I was always doing. But I realized no one was explaining how to use these skincare Korean skincare products. And that was also when, like, hey, beauty. Was kind of trying to be on the rise, but it quite wasn't. So I was like, you know what I just want to talk about? How do you use a toner? What's a toner? How do you use a serum?
- [22:32]
A
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- [23:46]
B
It's easy. You just have to score a ton of leads and figure out a way to turn them all into customers. Plus manage a dozen channels, write a million blogs and launch a hundred campaigns all at once. When that's done, simply make your socials go viral and bring in record profits. No sweat.
- [24:01]
A
Okay, fine, it's a lot of Sweat.
- [24:04]
B
But with HubSpot's AI powered marketing tools, launching benchmark breaking campaigns is easier than ever. Get started@HubSpot.com marketers and I started writing stuff as if it was like a blog. Never really showed my face because I was terrified anyone in finance was going to find me. So my face is never shown. It was just product pictures.
- [24:24]
A
It was just okay. It was like flat lays and everything because this one also Instagram was very much like a photo sharing app.
- [24:30]
B
It was a photo sharing app. And the reason, the biggest reason I started my account was because there were beautiful pictures of shelfies, flat lace that were color coordinated. But I was like, that's bullshit because no one's explaining how to use it. What's the point of having all these products when no one knows how to use these products? And I'm not an aesthetic person. I'm sure you know you are.
- [24:51]
A
I'm not an aesthetic. I really struggled when Instagram was in its aesthetic era and I tried to do that. Rest in peace. The amount of Hours I looked at my grid and I was like, how does this all coordinate? I'm wearing red. It doesn't go with that.
- [25:03]
B
I bought a camera. Everything. It just was not an aesthetic feed. I tried, but I think the reason people like me was beyond the flat lace. I did the explanation of how to use it.
- [25:14]
A
And so you would write it in the caption. Because again, there's no voice or video at this time.
- [25:18]
B
But I did. The stories were available, so I would talk about my routine and my stories, but those go away in 24 hours. So my face was not on the feed.
- [25:26]
A
Oh, interest. Would you go to camera on camera? Oh, okay. So at least you were to camera.
- [25:31]
B
Popular because of my stories. Because people were like, go check her stories out.
- [25:35]
A
Do you remember your first story and what you talked about?
- [25:38]
B
Sheet mask.
- [25:39]
A
A sheet mask.
- [25:40]
B
It was a sheet mask. How do you use a sheet mask? But also in a way where, like, how do you reuse your sheet mask? What are the tips around using a sheet mask? You know, the little liquids that's left in the sheet mask thing. Use it on your body. And people were like, whoa, I can do that.
- [25:53]
A
Do you still have your first? Because it's somewhere in the archives. Do you ever look at it?
- [25:57]
B
Oh, my God. I could probably look at it.
- [25:59]
A
Go find it.
- [25:59]
B
I'm going to find it.
- [26:01]
A
Because here's the thing, is that I think it's so cool to go back as an influencer and look at your first post ever.
- [26:07]
B
Yeah.
- [26:07]
A
So I looked at my first Instagram story. I sent it to my lawyer on LS. It was back in 2020. And I sent it to my lawyer because he was like, I'm not comfortable talking to camera. And I was like, I wasn't either. Very few people are born with the ability to just speak into camera without any encouragement. I think conversation is almost so much easier than just talking into your camera on stories. Oh, my God.
- [26:31]
B
Cringely.
- [26:32]
A
Oh. I literally wanted to crawl out of my own skin. So I started off as, like, a home decor blogger.
- [26:39]
B
Believe me, I know that.
- [26:40]
A
Yes. I know most people don't. It was like the era of, I don't know if you remember, like, 2020.
- [26:45]
B
Was like, the Bohemians.
- [26:47]
A
No, it was really, like, mommy blogger. Okay. I was following, for some reason, a lot of women from Texas, which are fine, but just, like, moms doing, like, home decor. And, like, everything was so perfect. And I felt like I had to be like that. So I looked at my first story to camera, and it was literally me explaining how to Use a wood finish pen on my scratched floors. I was like, hey, y'all. And I was like, oh, God, where am I from? It's like, we have a puppy. And because of that, like, our floors are. It's so, like, I need to see this.
- [27:22]
B
Oh, my God.
- [27:22]
A
It's so bad. But I feel like maybe you were probably a little bit. At least you're still doing the same thing. You're still in skincare.
- [27:30]
B
Same thing.
- [27:30]
A
Yeah. Go back and look at your first story, because I guarantee. Guarantee you, like, whenever you're having a bad day, that's. This is what I do now. I'm like, let me just go back and look at where I started, and here's where I am now. And it's like, okay, we're doing okay. And I always think the best way to gauge how you're doing in life is if you're, like, constantly embarrassed by last year's version of you. Yeah, I feel like that's a very freeing concept to be like. I hope I can look at myself a year from now and be like, she was such a. Yeah, right. You know, in a way, it's good. It's like, okay. Like, you're never going to learn if you don't have the courage to look stupid first. Right?
- [28:07]
B
Yeah.
- [28:07]
A
So were you, like, nervous about posting on social media? Obviously, I know there was, like, a professional aspect. So you're like, I don't want my coworkers to see this. I don't want to affect how they look at me. But, like, I always think maybe, like, your friends and family are harder to talk to about.
- [28:22]
B
Oh, my God. I went to the U.S. i went to Notre Dame, and I got the most prestigious job on Wall street, and then I went to a private equity hedge fund. All of that. So I think, like, people in my town was like, oh, my gosh. She's like, the pride of our town.
- [28:38]
A
You made it.
- [28:38]
B
Have I made it right? And all of a sudden I'm like, well, I'm gonna do social media. Like, this was before this anything of being an influencer was a thing. My mom was like, are you crazy? She didn't tell her friends for, like, I think a legit three years that I.
- [28:53]
A
She's, like, so embarrassed. I'm sure.
- [28:55]
B
Yeah.
- [28:56]
A
She was like, my daughter literally drank the American Kool Aid.
- [28:59]
B
And I couldn't do it either. I couldn't even tell the only people who knew that I had my secret account back then.
- [29:06]
A
That was your Finsta Glow with Ava. Was your Finsta, Basically, yeah.
- [29:10]
B
Only people was my husband and my sister. They were. They were the only people who knew about it. And then, you know, like, slowly, as I got a little bit more followers, people find it through their suggested friends. I didn't know that was a thing, so I was like, no one knows about this account, but apparently a lot of my friends actually knew that I was doing this thing. But, you know, it's so cringe.
- [29:31]
A
Oh.
- [29:31]
B
When you're trying to start an account, it's so, so cringe.
- [29:34]
A
It is like, you got to climb to the top of Cringe Mountain and keep climbing is how it feels. It's so bad.
- [29:40]
B
It's, like, so bad. And I go back to that day. I'm like, I don't know how I did it, but I somehow did it. And I think even to this day, I don't actively tell people, hey, my handle is Glow with Ava. Like, it took me so long. I think, like, finally starting last year, I'm like, with by Ava. Now I'm finally being able to, like, tell people more about it. But first three, four years didn't tell a soul that I have this account.
- [30:06]
A
I still have this weird reaction when somebody asks me what I do for work.
- [30:10]
B
Yeah.
- [30:11]
A
And I kind of. You know, it's like a very natural question to ask, like, at a party or something. Not in an influencer event, obviously. People like, oh, what are you doing? I'm like, yeah. It's like. And then you say it, and you're like, I'm an influencer. And I don't love that word. Influencer.
- [30:25]
B
I don't like that word.
- [30:26]
A
I like content creators.
- [30:28]
B
That's what I say.
- [30:28]
A
But then people don't freaking know what that is.
- [30:31]
B
They're like, what?
- [30:32]
A
Wait, what?
- [30:33]
B
Yeah.
- [30:33]
A
And I'm like, I'm an influencer.
- [30:34]
B
They're like, oh.
- [30:35]
A
And I'm like, yeah, but.
- [30:37]
B
But, like, it's like you. It's better just to say upfront, I'm an influencer versus saying, like, content creator. They're like, whoa. And then you're like, okay, I'm an influence. You know? Like, yeah, that makes it sometimes even worse.
- [30:47]
A
I know. It's like the faux. I'm just like, I am just so. Because you know what it is? It's like, everybody who has a career in this had to start off where they were, and it's so cringy, I don't even know.
- [31:01]
B
I think there's a trauma factor.
- [31:03]
A
Oh, it's trauma.
- [31:04]
B
It's trauma.
- [31:05]
A
It's like being at a party and, like, I'll never forget this. I was at a party one time when I just started my account. And not just started. I was at it for a year. So kind of a longish time to still only have two followers. And she was like, what do you do? And I was like, oh, I work in real estate. She's like, okay, yeah. And I was like, and I'm a blogger, too. And she was like, well, everybody needs a hobby. I literally want to take myself out back and shoot myself right now. Because she was also a doctor.
- [31:38]
B
Oh, my God.
- [31:38]
A
So I was like, how illegitimate as a human can I feel?
- [31:43]
B
Yeah.
- [31:43]
A
So for three years, we're just like, Glow with Ava is like my alter ego, you know?
- [31:49]
B
And when people ask me, like, what's your handle? I would just straight up not tell them. I was, like, embarrassed in a way. You really want to go see all my cringe videos and stuff? No, no. Spare yourself.
- [32:00]
A
At what point did that change?
- [32:03]
B
I think, like, two years ago, maybe a year ago. Honestly?
- [32:06]
A
Really?
- [32:06]
B
Yeah. It took a very, very long time for me.
- [32:09]
A
That's interesting. So even when you already had a following, you were like, I still don't want to talk about it.
- [32:14]
B
I'd rather have people just find my content than me actively have to sell myself in a way. I know plenty of people who are like, I'm an influencer. Here's my hand to follow me, you know? Like, I just can't do that.
- [32:26]
A
I can't do that either.
- [32:27]
B
Don't look at my content. Please don't follow me. Like, I'm like that.
- [32:31]
A
But it's worked because I think you have about almost 3 million across all platforms, I guess so. It's insane. Yeah. I was like, 1.7 on TikTok, 700 on Instagram, and 500.
- [32:42]
B
Damn, you know more than me.
- [32:44]
A
And you've got, like, 34,000 on your glow Without Ava account, which I love, by the way.
- [32:49]
B
I just started that.
- [32:51]
A
That's hilarious. Casual.
- [32:52]
B
Oh, my God. With that account, though, a couple of people have been messaging me. They were like, hey, I'm sure you're aware of this, but, like, this is just not okay. Because they think it's someone trying to be me.
- [33:03]
A
Oh, my God. They think you're impersonating yourself.
- [33:06]
B
They think. They think that it's a hate account for Glow with Ava. Cause it's Glow without Ava.
- [33:11]
A
That's hilarious. That's kind of how you know you got something, though, you know, because that's hilarious. Do you respond and you're like, no, no, it's actually me. I'm, like, literally making fun of myself.
- [33:20]
B
Exactly.
- [33:20]
A
I mean, it's just. It's different. You know, I really love the content on. It's, like, very, like, raw and real. Not that you're not raw and real in your glow with Ava.
- [33:29]
B
Exactly. But at the same time, when I've been doing this for a long time, I have so many things I want to talk about. Especially now I'm. I have a wellness brand and stuff, too. I don't want to just talk about skincare and talk about skincare as if that's, like, the magic fix, which isn't right.
- [33:43]
A
And I think that's what's so interesting, is that your approach. You've always taken a very holistic approach to skincare. And one of the things you said is that your mom always taught you that beauty starts in the kitchen, which is like, abs are made in the kitchen. That thought that you're 80% of what you consume. How have you kept up with that? Because I think it's a. You were like, my first meals in America were McDonald's and Chipotle. And then you went to South Bend. You can't. I mean, how easy is it to find fermented foods in South. Yeah.
- [34:10]
B
Zero.
- [34:10]
A
And they went into finance.
- [34:12]
B
I did the opposite of everything my mom taught me to do when I came to America. Right. It's a food system. It's a little broken by little. It's understated in the US But I loved it. Like, our cafeteria was one of the best in the U.S. okay. Because we're in the middle of nowhere. Our food has to be good. So our cafeteria was amazing. But even though it had good food, I was introduced to all this new food that, like, I. I didn't have in Asia that I was eating. Pizza, pancakes, bagels. Like, it was the first time I had a bagel. Okay.
- [34:43]
A
With cream cheese or without?
- [34:44]
B
With cream cheese, peanut butter, everything.
- [34:46]
A
Did you love cream cheese?
- [34:48]
B
Kind of.
- [34:49]
A
Okay. You're not really into it. My dad's, like, favorite thing when he first. It's so funny talking to my parents about their favorite American foods. When they first got here, My dad was like, I loved cream cheese. He's like, philadelphia cream cheese was it. And he always tells me, he's like, Philadelphia cream cheese over the generic. Even though it's a little more expensive. They had, like, no money, and he was like, I wouldn't eat the generic stuff.
- [35:07]
B
Really?
- [35:08]
A
That was his treat.
- [35:08]
B
Mine was blueberry cream cheese. So I would wait until the dining hall had like blueberry cream cheese. It was like, every other day.
- [35:15]
A
Okay.
- [35:15]
B
That was my thing.
- [35:16]
A
That was when you.
- [35:17]
B
Blueberry bagel with a blueberry cream cheese. I'm a big blueberry girl.
- [35:21]
A
Antioxidants. That's why you look the way you do.
- [35:22]
B
I guess so. With bagels.
- [35:24]
A
That's so funny.
- [35:25]
B
But I was eating so much. And also, by the way, I didn't know. This is a little embarrassing, but I didn't know what a calorie was freshman year of college.
- [35:33]
A
Interesting.
- [35:33]
B
I've literally never even heard of the term calories.
- [35:37]
A
Wait, do they not talk about calories in China?
- [35:40]
B
No. And also, it was never a thing in my household.
- [35:42]
A
Right.
- [35:43]
B
So we just. It was very intuitive eating and healthy eating. Right.
- [35:49]
A
So I think that's very much our parents general, like.
- [35:51]
B
Right.
- [35:52]
A
Old Asian people, like, don't talk about, like, dieting. No, there's a lot they talk about, like, eating when you're hungry, but also, like, eating healthy. You know, they eat more, I feel like, than maybe Americans do, but they eat very whole foods that they cook themselves.
- [36:09]
B
Yeah. So I didn't know calories was a thing. But when I came to the US the first time I realized was because there are these, like, honey braided pretzels that I was obsessed with.
- [36:18]
A
They're very good.
- [36:20]
B
So good. But it was like a big bag. It was a very big bag. And it said calories were 90 calories.
- [36:27]
A
Okay.
- [36:28]
B
I was eating this whole bag of pretzels every day because I was like, this is only 90 calories. Turns out, I didn't know serving size was the thing.
- [36:36]
A
Okay.
- [36:37]
B
500 calories. You.
- [36:41]
A
Like, this is amazing because somebody was telling you how many calories.
- [36:44]
B
It took me a very embarrassing time to realize the serving size. But I think it became a toxic thing because I started counting calories.
- [36:51]
A
Right.
- [36:51]
B
Okay. So I think every woman goes through their bouts of different kind of eating disorders, but, like, that was my thing where I was became, like, when you.
- [37:01]
A
Realized what a serving size was, that's.
- [37:03]
B
When it hit me. That's when I was like, I've been doing this this whole time. And then I got stuck into calories and I was just eating unhealthy food very, very, very long time. That's probably why I developed all my. The health issues that I had. 2017 was the worst of my health. Right.
- [37:20]
A
What happened in 2017?
- [37:23]
B
I had stomach aches literally every single day. I was nauseous, leaky, gut. Like, everything was wrong with me. Like, if I take a bite of something, my stomach would Hurt.
- [37:34]
A
So did you go to the doctor? And, like.
- [37:36]
B
But I was just trying to fight. I was like, there's nothing wrong with me. It's just. I just normalized being sick all the time. But I was working at a healthcare private equity firm, and my coworkers, they were very in tune with, like, the healthcare world. They were like, ava, you need to go see a GI doctor. And I didn't even know the GI doctor was a thing.
- [37:53]
A
Specialist.
- [37:54]
B
Specialist. I didn't know. I didn't know a specialist were a thing. And I was like, it's a GI doctor. So I looked one up, and I went to see them, and they ran these tests there. I had everything. So that was when I was like, you know what? I'm going to rely again on my mom's recipes, Easter medicine. And basically healed with food. I did not take any medication.
- [38:12]
A
Interesting.
- [38:13]
B
No medication at all for any of my symptoms.
- [38:16]
A
And what did you have? Like, did they diagnose you with something specific?
- [38:19]
B
Or were they just like, yes, Sibo. Leaky gut.
- [38:21]
A
Okay. And you just decided, I'm gonna go back to how I ate growing up, in a way.
- [38:27]
B
And I just literally, for lunch every day. Because we would always, like, get lunches together, salads. But the doctor was like, sweet grain is the worst thing you can do.
- [38:38]
A
Wait, what?
- [38:39]
B
For my condition.
- [38:40]
A
Oh, okay. But, like, wait, why?
- [38:42]
B
Because raw food, raw salads is so bad for someone who has a sense of stomach like yours, right? You can't digest it. You need cooked fruits, cooked vegetables, everything. So I started eating rice every day for lunch. And I remember, like, my really good guy friend who worked in the same building as me from college. We will always get lunch together. And, like, he was like. He wanted salads, right? And every day I told him, like, hey, like, sorry, I can't eat salads. And he thought I was, like, the craziest person ever, because I was like, hey, I need to eat rice. Like, can we go get teriyaki?
- [39:18]
A
You're like, that's the way I can be healthy, right?
- [39:20]
B
Yeah. And I was like, no, it's. It's much healthier for me. And he was like, telling my. My other guy friends, he was like, he would think, like, eating rice with chicken is healthier than the salad. Like, always making fun of me. I was like, you don't understand. Like, that's the dichotomy between having, like, the eastern idea versus the Western concept where, like, you automatically think salads are so healthy for you.
- [39:42]
A
Right?
- [39:42]
B
But it's not, right?
- [39:44]
A
Well, you know, What? I also think, like, there's probably. And I'm not a doctor, so this is just, like, pure conjecture, but I feel like there's a genetic difference between Asian people and, like, white people. Because, for example, so my husband's white. I am always cold. And, like, every Asian person I know is, like, always cold. And we're always concerned about staying warm. Right. Whereas I feel like white people can't get enough ac. Yes. It's like, okay, well, maybe they were just built to be colder and eat raw food, you know, and the whole, like, Asian people don't like their bare feet to touch the ground. Like, you go to an Asian household and they always have slippers. Yeah. Because they feel like the cold is going to come up from the ground.
- [40:24]
B
Even in the burn. In the summer, I go to bed with socks. Socks on?
- [40:28]
A
You sleep with socks on?
- [40:30]
B
You don't sleep with socks on?
- [40:31]
A
No.
- [40:32]
B
In the winter?
- [40:34]
A
No.
- [40:35]
B
I can't remember the last time I slept with no socks on.
- [40:39]
A
What about Ben? Does he.
- [40:40]
B
Yeah, he wears socks to bed. Maybe not every day. I'm not sure, but he does wear a lot of socks.
- [40:45]
A
Interesting. Yeah, my husband Dave, like, goes to bed pretty much naked. Well, no, I mean, he wears boxers, but he's. Which is, like, very normal.
- [40:53]
B
You know, my husband, I think he doesn't. He's not cold, but he does wear a lot more stuff when he sleeps. Maybe that's the Asian side of it.
- [41:00]
A
Yeah, I think that's the Asian.
- [41:01]
B
And so it's like.
- [41:02]
A
Okay, so, like, there's a genetic difference between how we're made up. All right. You were like, I'm healing myself from within. I'm starting this, like, skincare blog that, like, nobody knows about. But your husband knew. What's your husband. Wait, how did you guys meet? So your husband.
- [41:16]
B
Men are not dating app. Way to eat a tea. You're listening to an ad for PC game Pass. Want new games on day one? Like Indiana Jones and the Greatest Circle? How about living out your Sims life with EA Play? We talking high quality PC games, all for one low monthly price? We got you. Learn more@xbox.com PCGame Pass or click the banner Indiana Jones and the Great Circle. Available December 9, 2024. Game catalog varies by region and over time. Okay, that's the ad. You can go back to doing whatever you were doing now.
- [41:47]
A
This episode is brought to you by Etsy. Oh, hear that?
- [41:51]
B
Okay, thank you.
- [41:53]
A
Etsy knows these aren't the sounds of holiday gifting. Well, not the ones you're hoping for. You want squeals of delight, happy tears.
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B
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A
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B
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A
Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah.
- [42:11]
B
Oh, yeah.
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A
Um, okay, the song needs a bit of work, but anyway, to get those reactions, make sure everyone on your list feels heard with handmade, handpicked and designed gifts from small shops on Etsy. Gifts like personalized jewelry, custom artwork, cozy style items, vintage pieces, and home decor to celebrate all of your favorite people and their specific kind of special. For original gifts that say I get you, Etsy has it. Oh, like an OG dating app?
- [42:41]
B
No, the league.
- [42:42]
A
Oh, the league.
- [42:43]
B
Yeah. So I had a non compete after I quit my hedge fund job. I was. I couldn't work for three months because of the non compete, but I was still getting paid. And I was bored out of my mind because I already had a job lined up.
- [42:54]
A
Oh, so this is when you were in between jobs?
- [42:56]
B
Between jobs.
- [42:56]
A
Okay, finance jobs.
- [42:57]
B
Yeah, between finance jobs. This is before 25. 26. 26. And I never believed in going on a dating app, but I was so bored at the point I was going to the gym every day because I had nothing to do. I didn't have glow with Ava. Right, right.
- [43:11]
A
So you were just in really great shape and you're like, I gotta do something with these.
- [43:14]
B
I had like eight a pack back then.
- [43:17]
A
You're like, if a man's not gonna do.
- [43:20]
B
I was like, you know, I'm just gonna go on dating app. And he was my first dating app date ever.
- [43:25]
A
I fucking hate you, first of all. Because people who are like, I went on one dating app and now he's my soulmate. I have girlfriends like that who like went on one Tinder date and the guy turned out not to be a tool. And now they're married with children. And I'm like, what? So Ben was your first?
- [43:41]
B
But trust me, I've had so many bad experiences before that.
- [43:44]
A
Right, right. Just not from a dating app.
- [43:47]
B
Not from a dating app.
- [43:48]
A
So how did you meet people before dating apps?
- [43:49]
B
Because I feel like friends of friends, bars, friends of. Okay, I'm telling you, I was an alcoholic. Like, I went out Wednesday to Saturday till 4am every day in my 20s.
- [43:59]
A
And now you and I like, don't touch the wine at like a brand event. And it's like, usually really nice wine too. I'm like, oh, God. Like five years ago, I would have been all opinion.
- [44:07]
B
Also that year I gave up alcohol for a year.
- [44:11]
A
Interesting.
- [44:12]
B
And I gave up raw sushi for a year. It was like a whole wellness thing. So actually, when I started, that was your first reinvention.
- [44:18]
A
Well, not your first, but one of your reinventions.
- [44:20]
B
AVA 1.0. Like, wellness.
- [44:22]
A
Right.
- [44:22]
B
And because it was so deep into this wellness journey. Journey. A lot of my glow with Ava content in the. Since the very first month, I talked about food.
- [44:32]
A
Interesting.
- [44:33]
B
Yeah. Like, one of the posts was like. Yeah, it was like this thing called. There was a. There's a toner called beauty water in Korea. It's like a cleansing water, but it's also a toner called beauty water. And then right next to it, in my office, I would have my beauty waters where I put, like, vitamin C drops or, like, pink stuff in it. And there was a picture. I need to pull this up. Or I would buy, like, these juices that would be like, Beauty water. And I would.
- [44:58]
A
This is water you drink, not water. Yeah, because I've seen you do that. You're like, you don't like the taste of water. Which is so interesting because I'm like, who hates water Water?
- [45:05]
B
That's why I was, like, always drinking these things. And I would take this, like, cringy picture of beauty water and, like, that you put on your face and Beauty water that you ingest, and I was like, not to be made. I was like, what's the difference between these? So, like, it was always part of my content since day one. That was actually probably one of my first posts.
- [45:24]
A
Okay, so this is like, all right, Ava 1.0 turns into, like, Ava 2.0. You meet Ben on the league. Did you know right away, like, hey, absolutely not. No, no. Did you like him at first?
- [45:38]
B
I don't think I did. No. He knows this. He. It's so funny because after our first date, he was like, she's the one. I, like, love her. And I was like, I don't think.
- [45:51]
A
Where was your first date?
- [45:53]
B
Do you remember Rain's lawroom? It was a cocktail bar.
- [45:56]
A
Shut the fucking front door.
- [45:58]
B
Yours, too.
- [45:59]
A
Are you kidding me? Wait, the one in Flatiron or the one in Flatiron? Okay, ours was at the William up to William. Oh, my. What?
- [46:09]
B
That's crazy.
- [46:10]
A
Okay. Yes. My first date with Dave twins was at Rain's. I know. All right, well, now Dave and Ben have to meet. Cause clearly they have the same first date spot.
- [46:18]
B
He picked it.
- [46:19]
A
Yeah. And Dave picked it. He was like, this is where I take on my first date.
- [46:21]
B
I know. That's what him too.
- [46:23]
A
Oh, my God. Hilarious. It is a great first date spot.
- [46:28]
B
It is. It is.
- [46:29]
A
I wasn't really drinking at the time, which was really interesting. So I drank half a glass of white wine and eight glasses of water that night at a freaking cocktail bar. Yeah, I'm sure.
- [46:40]
B
No, I actually. Ben always talks about this. He was like, she ordered the most expensive cocktail, and she drank not even half of it. I didn't think I was like, that into him. So I was like, I don't want to finish. And also, it was a Monday night, and I was going to Boston the next morning.
- [46:52]
A
Okay, for work?
- [46:53]
B
No, to visit Harvard Business School. Because I was gonna go to. I was thinking of going to business school.
- [46:59]
A
Right. Cause, okay, so you just spoke at Columbia, and I saw in your stories you were like, I always wanted to go to business school and didn't get in or didn't get into the one that you wanted to.
- [47:07]
B
I didn't get in Columbia.
- [47:08]
A
You didn't get into Columbia. And you're like, now I'm speaking here on a panel on how to run a business. Rejection is redirection.
- [47:13]
B
Exactly.
- [47:13]
A
Which is amazing. But. But okay, so you were gonna go to business school because you were like, all right, I'm in finance now. I've been working for a couple years. That's the next step. So you were just over Ben?
- [47:22]
B
Yeah.
- [47:22]
A
Okay, so what happened? Because now you're married. So something happened, or like, you're like, I still hate him.
- [47:27]
B
He's a very stubborn guy. He's very stubborn and, like, very, you know, like, very unlike any of the guys I've dated before. I've been hurt, and I've had so many bad relationships in the past, and he was the first nice person, like, truly the first good guy. And, like, he was like, let me. I think the third day was, like, he was gonna cook for me. And I was like, a guy has never cooked for me. Like, what? So that started.
- [47:53]
A
Can he cook, or was he just bluffing?
- [47:55]
B
No, he baked salmon.
- [47:57]
A
Oh.
- [47:57]
B
And mushrooms and broccoli. I was like, I've never even done that for myself. What is going on? And then I ended up getting, like, a fever right after that, a couple days later. And they asked from the salmon. No, no, no, no, no, no, no. Completely separate. But I went to Miami for a girls trip.
- [48:14]
A
Oh, okay.
- [48:15]
B
And then I was so sick in Miami. And before that, he was like, I. I can get you. He woke up in the middle of the night to get me Gatorade and, like, just trying to help me with my fever. And I truly never have I gone through something like this.
- [48:29]
A
Right.
- [48:30]
B
That was when you're sick you're so vulnerable.
- [48:32]
A
Right.
- [48:33]
B
And that won me over.
- [48:34]
A
Okay, so. And how long was this into, like, the courting phase? Like, a couple months. Oh, two weeks.
- [48:39]
B
It was two weeks.
- [48:40]
A
It didn't take. No, that long. Took it. Okay.
- [48:43]
B
Yeah.
- [48:44]
A
So he was very persistent. You were like, okay, you could be my boyfriend.
- [48:47]
B
Very persistent. He, like, bas. I always said he basically forced me into dating him. He was like, you're gonna be my girlfriend now. I was like, I wasn't ready for dating, but. Okay.
- [48:59]
A
This is so interesting because it kind of goes against everything I always preach on my socials, where it's like, if you're not into the guy or if you're not. But, like, it' like, if people who know, like, Ben from your social media, which I wish he would make more cameo appearances because he's always so great when he does. But, like, you could just tell Ben means well. So it's like, you know, we're joking and saying, like, oh, he forced himself onto me, essentially. But not in that way.
- [49:20]
B
Not in that way.
- [49:21]
A
There's a difference between men who do it because they feel entitled to you.
- [49:24]
B
But it's very different because I've only been used to liking assholes, and Ben wasn't an asshole.
- [49:30]
A
Everyone has that face, right?
- [49:32]
B
And Ben was an asshole. So I was like, why are you so nice? It was very weird to me. Like, a guy was nice to me, which. Which is already another warning sign, Right?
- [49:39]
A
Yeah, that.
- [49:40]
B
Like, I shouldn't think like that.
- [49:41]
A
But what do you think it was that you were attracted to assholes in beating? Because I feel like, you know, I have some girlfriends who really. I feel like they were born out of the womb just knowing how to pick good men, and they don't take shit. And, like, I had to learn it.
- [49:54]
B
No. I think I've always been attracted to men who treat me like shit.
- [49:57]
A
Thankfully, you married one that doesn't treat you like shit.
- [50:00]
B
I know.
- [50:01]
A
But you know what? It's good that you recognize that pattern in yourself. I went through a weird phase. I would date the nice guy. Yeah. But the guy that I didn't really like. That's the problem. I think what it boils down to is that you actually ultimately liked and now love Ben. Whereas I would try to convince myself this guy is such a good guy and I've been with him for two years, but, like, I don't want him to fucking touch me.
- [50:23]
B
Yeah.
- [50:23]
A
And so I think that's really difficult because it's like, I would then leave the good guy and then go Date the asshole, right? And then be like, okay, well, this guy's an asshole. And then go date the good guy that I didn't really like. So it's like a very weird balance. Do you believe in second chances since you gave Ben a second one?
- [50:40]
B
I do think so. And he was very persistent. But I will say this was my. This was the first, like, really, really good guy that I truly dated. That even to my sister, I was like, I'm just going to break up with him in like six months. Like, that was my mentality. Like, I was also bored. Right. And I was like, I'm going back to another private equity job. Like, this relationship is not going to last because I'm going to be so busy, I'm not going to see him.
- [51:03]
A
Right.
- [51:03]
B
So I was like, you know what? This is, like, this is good for now. But like, I didn't think of it as a long term relationship when I first started dating him.
- [51:11]
A
Which almost is good in a way because you're not planning and expecting like.
- [51:15]
B
A ring at the end.
- [51:16]
A
You're very moment to moment. You're like, this is fine for now.
- [51:19]
B
But then like previous guys, I'm like, thinking too much ahead.
- [51:23]
A
Right.
- [51:23]
B
Right. And that was.
- [51:24]
A
You're like, I'm literally gonna marry this man and go to Vineyard Vines.
- [51:28]
B
And my wedding trip, that was literally me.
- [51:31]
A
My trolls love to tell me that I'm not over my past because I talk so much about my exes and how certain men were very pivotal in my life to learn. But my husband knows all these stories. There are so many men that I'm like, thank God that didn't work out. But I think about that relationship all the time and how that needed to happen. Is there one guy in particular that you broke up with that. Or maybe he broke up with you that you were like, thank God that happened. And I still think I'm so glad I met you, even though I'm glad.
- [51:56]
B
I'm not with you. I'm so happy. There is one guy that I'm so happy that I met.
- [52:01]
A
Yeah.
- [52:01]
B
I still think about him a lot. Right. I hope he's.
- [52:03]
A
Well, who is he? I mean, don't say his name. Name. I'm sorry. Like, tell me everything about him without.
- [52:10]
B
Telling finance their friends.
- [52:12]
A
Okay. In your early 20s.
- [52:14]
B
Yeah.
- [52:14]
A
Yeah.
- [52:15]
B
And he was honestly, like a great guy, but, like, he's the type of person who will never get married, you know?
- [52:21]
A
Like, was he older than.
- [52:23]
B
Yeah, like, no. Like, maybe two years older.
- [52:26]
A
Okay.
- [52:27]
B
Yeah. But like, he's the type of Person who just probably won't get married. Still a great guy.
- [52:31]
A
Okay.
- [52:32]
B
But I could never be with someone.
- [52:34]
A
Because you want a commitment.
- [52:35]
B
Yeah. And also another warning sign is I don't like guys who follow other Laurens and Stacy's and Irene's of the world. Like he was one of those.
- [52:44]
A
Irene. I was not expecting Irene to follow after Lauren and Stacy.
- [52:51]
B
One of those unique ones.
- [52:52]
A
Agnes.
- [52:53]
B
Yeah.
- [52:55]
A
Honestly, if my husband was following an Agnes, I would not be.
- [52:57]
B
No, absolutely not. Sorry.
- [52:59]
A
To any Agnes out there, I will.
- [53:01]
B
Say, if Ben was following these people.
- [53:02]
A
Yeah.
- [53:03]
B
I could care less.
- [53:04]
A
That's the thing.
- [53:04]
B
No, I, I would tell Ben, like, go follow them, go follow them. Go pure like do it.
- [53:11]
A
Go look at some boobs. I don't have any say. You might strip club.
- [53:14]
B
I don't care like other men because I know they're so different and their tendencies.
- [53:20]
A
Right.
- [53:20]
B
It would bother me a lot.
- [53:22]
A
But see, I think that's what it comes down to is people ask me, should I be bothered by the fact that my guy is following hot insta chicks? And I'm like, if you have to ask me the question, that probably means that it's not just about following the models. Because I think when we get into a long term relationship, we're not immune to other people. I don't go around and like I don't see anybody but my husband. No one else is attractive. I think it's so healthy. It is in a relationship, in a marriage to be like, wow, that guy is not my husband. He's super fucking hot though.
- [53:51]
B
Yeah.
- [53:51]
A
And I'm like, good for you. But what we've built transcends any amount of hotness in front of me. And I tell that to my husband too. I'm like, he's allowed to look at other women. I'm like, absolutely. There are so many women I like. I'm like, you are so much like God just graced you with just physical attractiveness. Like you're literally the perfect specimen of a human being. Like, you're so much hotter than me. But I don't get nervous about that with my husband. Whereas I would have with other people. Because I think some men are always looking for the next best thing. Especially in New York. Yes. And that's what I always felt like.
- [54:22]
B
Yeah. And the only guys I've been with were all in New York. And yeah.
- [54:25]
A
So this guy that you were like, hey, I'm so glad I met him. He probably never going to get married. Do you think that was the issue is that he was always Sort of looking to see who was around the corner, like, what was.
- [54:34]
B
Yeah. And he, like, had a lot of client dinners or, like, you know, like in finance, so get introduced to other women and stuff.
- [54:42]
A
So, like, you just never really trusted him.
- [54:44]
B
I just didn't trust him. Could never trust him. And made me so anxious while I was with Ben. I could go to Asia for a month and I'm. I would. I'm not concerned a bit.
- [54:53]
A
Right. He could be following all the hot Insta models, and it's like, it's totally fine. But that's how, you know, it's like. Right.
- [54:59]
B
Yeah. And some women maybe are okay with being in a relationship where they're a little bit, you know, nervous, over the edge. Right.
- [55:06]
A
So I'm so, like, curious as to the women who end up marrying the men who always do have, like, a wandering eye. Do you think that's, like, a genetic thing? In some men and women, they're just predisposed to not be monogamous or always?
- [55:21]
B
I think so. I'm not sure about the genetic part, but let me tell you, it's not just a man thing. Women.
- [55:25]
A
Oh, yeah.
- [55:25]
B
A lot of women also have a wandering eye. Oh, yeah. Right. But I. I think that's why I'm like, I just don't think mentally I could be with someone with a wandering eye. I've always been with people like that. But now that I'm in the other side of the world, I could not do it. And I know plenty of people who are, and they're like, I always have to look good for my husband. Oh, my God, that's so exhausting, you know?
- [55:48]
A
Or like, I openly fart in front of my husband.
- [55:50]
B
Oh, me too. It's like.
- [55:51]
A
And I pee with the door open. We close the door for number two. But like. Like, there is a line.
- [55:57]
B
That's exactly what we do, too.
- [55:58]
A
The line is very thin and it's slowly fading. I'm sure after we have kids and he's seen everything that happens, I'm like, whatever. I'm having, like, a diarrhea attack right now. You just go into a different room.
- [56:10]
B
A lot of people who I know, they can't even, like, have their husband hear them pee or can't, like, have them see my complete bare face. Like, it's a thing that is exhausting to me.
- [56:21]
A
It's so exhausting for you. When you started glow with Ava, obviously your husband knew. I can't imagine if you're not comfortable with your man seeing you without a bare face on Knowing him, knowing that you're about to do this crazy thing and try social media for the. Wait, so what was his reaction to you being like, I'm gonna start Instagram and then I'm gonna quit my job?
- [56:42]
B
He actually did encourage me to start this platform.
- [56:45]
A
Okay.
- [56:46]
B
He actually bought me a first camera for my birthday a couple months into doing this, because I was like, I need to take better flat lays. You know, it was always compl.
- [56:55]
A
Laney, rest in peace. Our aesthetic lives.
- [56:58]
B
Right. Have not touched that camera. But he did encourage it. But at the same time, like, I wasn't making any money for two years. Okay. Like, I was just going off of my savings, and at one point he was like, you need to go back to finance.
- [57:13]
A
He's like, we need money. Were you guys living together already?
- [57:15]
B
No, we weren't.
- [57:16]
A
Okay.
- [57:16]
B
But I. But I did. Towards the end, I did move in with him, so thank God.
- [57:23]
A
And he was working, right? Yeah, okay.
- [57:24]
B
He was working. And it wasn't like he was, like, in finance or making a ton of money either.
- [57:28]
A
Right?
- [57:29]
B
So. But he kept telling me, you gotta go back to finance or something.
- [57:33]
A
He was like, this is not working out. Yeah, I supported you because he was.
- [57:38]
B
Like, are you gonna go to. I was like, I'm gonna go to business school. He's like, okay, well, that's another 300k. But it worked out.
- [57:45]
A
It worked out. Was it one video or was it like a series of videos?
- [57:49]
B
You know, everyone asked me that question because I think, like, in this day and age, like, there are a lot of, like, people who go truly viral. I didn't have anything like that. It was a very slowest, steady rice, but it was steady all along. 2020 was when I started growing, though.
- [58:06]
A
When did you start making, like, a full time living from this? 20.
- [58:10]
B
20. 2020. Late, late.
- [58:12]
A
2020, I think.
- [58:14]
B
Oh. So I went to Korea in the middle of the pandemic.
- [58:17]
A
How did you even even leave and why? You got on a plane.
- [58:21]
B
I went because I wouldn't even go.
- [58:22]
A
To a grocery store.
- [58:23]
B
My sister and my mom were in Korea, and Korea just had a much better system of, you know, quarantining people and just being safe.
- [58:30]
A
Oh, right. Yes, that's true.
- [58:32]
B
Yeah. So I did the whole two week quarantine in Korea.
- [58:34]
A
Did you bring Ben with you or. No?
- [58:36]
B
No, no, no.
- [58:36]
A
You were like, you can just die in America.
- [58:38]
B
Right. I'm just piecing out. So we actually got legally married the next day I left for Korea. I was like, all right, peace out. I left July 19th.
- [58:49]
A
Wait. This is so romantic.
- [58:50]
B
I know. Bye. And I was in Korea for a month. That was the month where I was like getting a little bit of sponsorships. It was like a three thousand dollar deal, which was one of the biggest ones I've had.
- [59:02]
A
That's insane. I used. I remember my first deal was like a 500 deal. And I was like, 500?
- [59:06]
B
I was 35. 35. I was like, I'm taking to Ben. I was like, ben, I'm taking you out to lunch.
- [59:14]
A
Taking you to Chipotle.
- [59:15]
B
Yeah, get the guac, get the guac.
- [59:19]
A
Get all the guac. Get the guac and the chips and the guac on your bowl.
- [59:23]
B
Oh, my God. Ben and I, we're so frugal in some ways. We still don't get the guac. He's like, just cut up the fucking avocado at home.
- [59:32]
A
This is. Okay. You know what the worst is? Sometimes they didn't use fresh avocados for it. And you can taste that, like weird taste after. That's the worst. I'm like, how much did I spend on this?
- [59:42]
B
And it's so expensive now. That's Ben. He's very frugal.
- [59:45]
A
In one of your videos, you said, always live well below your means. So live. You make 50% less than what you make. And you own an apartment now.
- [59:53]
B
Yeah.
- [59:53]
A
When did you guys buy your apartment?
- [59:56]
B
20. 19.
- [59:56]
A
That was a while ago. So you were young.
- [59:59]
B
Yeah.
- [59:59]
A
So you guys were just frugal. You saved. See, that's also a cultural difference between, I think American culture and Eastern culture. Whereas like in China, I don't know if it's like this in Korea, but it's like, there's no debt culture. People don't take out massive loans, they buy everything in cash. If you want to know the difference between Asian people and white people when it comes to money is that white people are like, oh, you know, here's how much I spent on this car or this house. Like, look how much money I have. And Asian people are like, look how much I saved on this car, this house. I got this Ferrari and I haggled it down so much that the guy basically wanted to kill himself. After I was done, he paid me to buy this car.
- [60:35]
B
That is the culture. It's so funny. Exactly. That's like, even though he is white, he has that kind of Asian thing in him.
- [60:43]
A
Yeah.
- [60:43]
B
But I do remember I got a three thousand dollar deal when I was in Korea and I was like, mom, I am rich.
- [60:52]
A
Was she like, ava, go back to.
- [60:54]
B
Finance yeah, she's still. At that point, she was like, can you please go to, like, she was like, get an mba. We'll take all loans and, like, pay for your mba. It was like. It was like that Asian mentality. Go to school.
- [61:06]
A
Right.
- [61:07]
B
And go back to finance.
- [61:08]
A
I know. Or go back to.
- [61:10]
B
Yeah, do something.
- [61:11]
A
Does she get it now?
- [61:13]
B
She does.
- [61:13]
A
Okay.
- [61:14]
B
She loves it now.
- [61:15]
A
Yeah. Well, you know, I. One of my favorite videos of yours ever is this one where you're spraying Baccarat Rouge 500.
- [61:22]
B
Oh, my God. Yeah.
- [61:23]
A
And so if you guys haven't seen this video, go find it. Because it's just, like, the epitome of just how I think Asian kids feel, immigrant kids feel. Because it sounds like your parents, they were not fabulously wealthy while you were growing up. Mine weren't either. And so it's like, for me, so much of my motivation to do what I do every day comes from the fact that I saw my parents struggle and give up every single luxury in life just to give me the bare minimum so that I could have an opportunity to do what I wanted. Do you feel like that's a huge motivating factor in your life right now to give back to your parents?
- [61:55]
B
I think it's the only motivating factor.
- [61:57]
A
That's the only motivating factor.
- [61:58]
B
It's the only motivating factor. More so than, like, my own ambition. It's to give back to them because.
- [62:03]
A
You saw how hard they worked to give you this.
- [62:06]
B
They sacrificed literally their entire life for me and my sister.
- [62:10]
A
So this video, if you haven't seen it, Ava is spraying this perfume onto her mom every day before she leaves for the day because her mom. It's like a perfume bottle that she gifted to her mom, and her mom refuses to wear it when she finds out how expensive it is. How much is it to buy retail?
- [62:26]
B
350.
- [62:26]
A
And at the end, my favorite thing is she finally accepts that, like, she deserves nice things, too. And she sprayed on one side, and she's like, oh, the other side too.
- [62:34]
B
Give me the other side. Yeah. The best way I've given back to them is my sister is still in college. It's taking her a little longer to graduate because she's changed majors in between. And because they have to wire money from China to the US there's wire fees, there's currency exchange rates. Like, it's all over the place. So I prepay all of my sister's tuition. Wow. For them. And I said, you can pay me back whenever.
- [63:01]
A
That's amazing.
- [63:02]
B
Yeah.
- [63:02]
A
And you get to do it off of your social media income.
- [63:05]
B
Right. And I'm not like, mom, you have to pay me back, you know, tomorrow. I'm like, pay me back whenever or whenever the currency's down, you know, and. Or just pay me back in food.
- [63:15]
A
Just come cook for me.
- [63:16]
B
Yeah, just cook for me.
- [63:18]
A
I want to end with this question. We've talked about this before, and we've talked a little bit about how rejection is redirection, but I think rejection and success are two sides of the same coin. And everybody I know who's gotten anywhere they want to be in life was, like, heavily rejected first. Was there one rejection in your life that stood out the most to you? That you were like, that's why I'm here today. That's why I'm. I'm successful today?
- [63:41]
B
Wow. That's a deep question. I think I've had so many rejections in my life. Like, honestly, so many. I think one of the biggest ones was in high school. I wasn't confident. It was a really competitive Asian in high school. And that's why I was like, I don't even think I'll get into any of the IVs, even if I tried. Like, it just, like, I just didn't believe in myself. I was like, this. This other girl who had the same exact gpa, did the same exact community service things. She was like, I can get into Colombia. I can do this, right? But for me, I was like, how can I even imagine that for myself? But then I think going to Notre Dame was great, but having that different name and having that identity change, in a way gave me this insane confidence that allowed me to survive in the U.S. and that confidence just drove me forward to until today, honestly.
- [64:32]
A
So what I love about that is you rejected yourself.
- [64:35]
B
I rejected myself.
- [64:36]
A
You rejected your previous self. You're like, I'm just not gonna be.
- [64:39]
B
Good enough for anything.
- [64:41]
A
Right? And so I will reinvent myself and, like, fake it till I make it, essentially.
- [64:46]
B
Yeah.
- [64:46]
A
That is so inspiring. Thank you so much for coming in today and chatting with me. This is awesome. So where can people find you on socials and tell everybody a little bit about your business?
- [64:56]
B
Yeah. So you can find me at Glow with Ava on Instagram, TikTok and YouTube. It's all the same handle. And I have my own inner beauty wellness lifestyle brand called by Ava. And that's where I do a mixture of Gua Sha tea elixirs, collagen products, everything to get your skin to glow from the inside and out.
- [65:18]
A
That's awesome. Go follow Ava. She's never going to tell you to do that herself, so I will do it for her. Thanks so much, Ava.
- [65:25]
B
Thank you. Hey, I'm Ryan Reynolds. Recently I asked Mint Mobile's legal team if big wireless companies are allowed to raise prices due to inflation. They said yes. And then when I asked if raising.
- [65:35]
A
Prices technically violates those onerous two year.
- [65:38]
B
Contracts, they said, what the are you talking about? You insane Hollywood. So to recap, we're cutting the price.
- [65:44]
A
Of mint unlimited from $30 a month.
- [65:46]
B
To just $15 a month. Give it a try@mintmobile.com switch. $45 upfront payment equivalent to $15 per month. New customers on first three month plan only. Taxes and fees. Extra Speed slower above 40 gigabytes. Details.