What divorce can teach you about the power of being alone and the rebirthday of Katie Maloney

Summary

Brutally Anna: Episode Summary Title: What Divorce Can Teach You About the Power of Being Alone and the Rebirth of Katie Maloney
Host: Anna Kai
Guest: Katie Maloney
Release Date: November 4, 2024

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1. Introduction

In this episode of Brutally Anna, host Anna Kai delves deep into the transformative journey of Katie Maloney, known for her stint on Vanderpump Rules. The conversation centers around Katie's experiences with love, loss, self-discovery, and reinvention following her divorce. Through candid discussions, listeners gain insights into navigating life's brutal moments and emerging stronger.

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2. Early Life and Education

Katie Maloney shares her unconventional path through education and early adulthood:

• Dropping Out of College:
  "I went to one semester of college and decided it wasn't for me... I didn't have something I truly wanted to study." (03:24)
  Katie emphasizes her passion for drama and theater, leading her to leave college in pursuit of real-life experiences rather than a traditional academic route.

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3. Moving to Los Angeles and Career Beginnings

Katie recounts her move to Los Angeles and the challenges she faced:

• Initial Struggles in LA:
  "I moved here at 20... living in West Hollywood for 13 years... houses are more affordable over there." (08:30)
  She discusses working as an assistant for a fashion wardrobe stylist, navigating a new city's complexities without the conveniences we have today, like GPS.

• Adaptation and Growth:
  "If you can stick it out and find a good group of friends... you're probably going to hate it for a couple of years." (07:35)
  Katie highlights the importance of perseverance and building a supportive network in a sprawling city like LA.

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4. Life on Vanderpump Rules

Katie reflects on her decade-long journey with the reality TV show:

• Personal Exposure and Its Impact:
  "You've put a lot of yourself out there... it's a massive city... Every neighborhood has its own sort of personality." (02:32)
  She discusses the balance between public persona and private life, navigating relationships under the public eye.

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5. Personal Challenges: Divorce and Recovery

A significant portion of the episode delves into Katie's divorce and subsequent recovery:

• Decision to Divorce:
  "I kept thinking, maybe once we get past this season... nothing's gonna change... I'm not getting what I need." (24:43)
  Katie explains the internal struggle of loving her ex-husband but recognizing the need to prioritize her own happiness and well-being.

• Emotional Recovery and Self-Love:
  "I started to love myself again... understanding that I really wanted to be happy." (26:44)
  She underscores the importance of self-affirmation and rebuilding self-worth post-divorce.

• Rebirth Day Concept:
  "November 9, 2009 is your rebirth day... recovering from the accident taught you." (67:00)
  Katie introduces the idea of celebrating pivotal moments of transformation, likening her recovery from a severe accident to a personal rebirth.

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6. Approach to Relationships and Dating

Katie offers profound insights into her dating life post-divorce:

• Navigating LA's Dating Scene:
  "Through friends mostly... just in the wild. IRL." (46:20)
  She prefers meeting through mutual friends over dating apps, valuing vetted connections over the often superficial nature of app-based dating.

• Challenges with Casual Dating:
  "I don't do casual dating very well... I'm very intentional with people." (49:10)
  Katie emphasizes her preference for meaningful connections, rejecting non-committal relationships that don't align with her values.

• Setting Boundaries:
  "I just wanna remove the access... not everyone deserves access." (63:06)
  She discusses the importance of establishing boundaries to protect her emotional well-being, especially when dealing with ex-partners or persistent suitors.

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7. Reflections on Self-Love and Personal Growth

The episode highlights Katie's journey toward self-discovery and empowerment:

• Choosing Herself:
  "I choose myself... I wanted to keep moving on... being more physically active." (70:21)
  Katie talks about prioritizing her own needs and happiness, focusing on personal goals like her sandwich shop and maintaining a healthy lifestyle.

• Building a Supportive Community:
  "Connecting with old friends... women who were really making things happen for themselves." (74:57)
  She underscores the significance of surrounding herself with motivated and positive individuals who inspire her growth.

• Mental Health and Therapy:
  "I was diagnosed with obsessive-compulsive disorder... I was spending time trying to fix myself." (73:25)
  Katie candidly shares her struggles with mental health, emphasizing the role of therapy and self-work in her journey toward healing.

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8. Conclusion

In concluding the episode, Katie Maloney encapsulates her evolution from a reality TV star navigating the pitfalls of fame and personal relationships to an empowered entrepreneur committed to self-love and personal growth. Her story serves as an inspiring testament to the power of resilience, the importance of prioritizing one's happiness, and the beauty of reinventing oneself after life's most challenging moments.

Key Takeaways:

• Self-Prioritization: Emphasizing the necessity of putting oneself first in relationships and life decisions.
• Resilience Through Adversity: Demonstrating how personal trials, like divorce and accidents, can lead to profound personal growth.
• Intentional Relationships: Advocating for meaningful and committed connections over fleeting or casual interactions.
• Building a Supportive Network: Highlighting the importance of surrounding oneself with positive and inspiring individuals to foster personal development.

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Notable Quotes

• Katie Maloney on Choosing Herself:
  "I choose myself. That's what I choose, 100%." (32:46)

• Anna Kai on Personal Growth:
  "What you're building can be anything because you're not working with an old foundation." (32:46)

• Katie Maloney on Mental Health:
  "I was emotionally supported... it's a terrible place to be." (69:08)

• Anna Kai on Relationships:
  "The only thing better than a gift wrapped under the tree is wrapping the ones you love in luxury with Cozy Earth." (76:07)

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Timestamp Reference:
For clarity and ease of navigation, timestamps are referenced in brackets corresponding to the specific moments in the podcast transcript.

Transcript

[Katie Maloney]

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[Anna Kai]

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[Katie Maloney]

Oh so light and crunchy.

[Anna Kai]

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[Katie Maloney]

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[Anna Kai]

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[Katie Maloney]

Perfectly popped, endlessly delicious.

[Anna Kai]

Give yourself permission to snack and pick up Skinny Pop Original Popcorn today. Welcome to Brutally Anna, a podcast about finding love, losing love, and all the things we think about but don't talk about enough. I'm your host, Anna Kai, AKA maybe both across social media, here to remind you that life can be beautiful even when it's freaking brutal. So I always say that sometimes the right choice in life is not always the easy choice. And our guest today, Vanderpump Rules star Katie Maloney, is a prime example of how far you can go if you just make the right choice for you, even if it is the difficult choice. Between sharing the last decade of her life with us on reality tv, getting divorced, and now being an entrepreneur with her new sandwich shop, something about her that she co owns with fellow Vanderpump Rules castmate Ariana Maddox, Katie has shown time and time again that she isn't willing to settle for anyone in anything just because it's the path of least resistance here to inspire us all with the power of telling yourself a different story and why maybe we should all have what she calls a rebirth day. Thanks so much for being here.

[Katie Maloney]

Thank you. That was wonderful.

[Anna Kai]

W got a lot to go through. I mean, there's a lot about you online that I was like, I have so much to ask you.

[Katie Maloney]

I know it's a blessing and a curse that there's so much out there.

[Anna Kai]

But you've lived many lives.

[Katie Maloney]

Yeah. You know, I mean, I would say, I say it's a curse because when you're trying to like get to know somebody new or you meet somebody, it's not an even, even playing field 100%.

[Anna Kai]

Because they think they know you well.

[Katie Maloney]

They can just google and get all this intimate information about my life where they're just like, I gotta just ask questions.

[Anna Kai]

I'm like, hold on, you gotta stay present.

[Katie Maloney]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. So yeah, I mean, but you know, it's. Having been on the show for over a decade, it's just piles up.

[Anna Kai]

You've put a lot of yourself out there. Well, before the show, you grew up in Park City and then you. I love what you said about college because it was a very interesting thing. So you went to one semester of college and decided it wasn't for you and you stopped. And I think what you said was, I wanted to go to college to try it out and see if it was right for me. Whereas, like, I grew up the daughter of Chinese immigrants. Like, it wasn't an option for me. Right, and so it was always an option for you. And I'm just kind of curious, like, were your parents supportive of this? Sort of unconventional, like, find your bliss path or did you. So they were also very much unconventional in the sense of like, no, they don't care that you need to go to college.

[Katie Maloney]

If you want to go, go. I mean, I just, I didn't have something I really truly wanted to study or major in or anything, you know, that was. I wasn't planning to be a doctor or anything of that type of like professional where you really do need the degree, you need the education. It's going to be years to, to get into all that. But I, because I grew up in, I loved drama and theater and acting and all that. So I just felt like it would be a waste of time and money to be at a four year school. But being that I was only 18, I was like, what do I know? I know maybe I should just go and maybe I'll love it. But I did not.

[Anna Kai]

You did not love it?

[Katie Maloney]

I didn't jive with it, no.

[Anna Kai]

So you dropped out and then what did you do after that?

[Katie Maloney]

I worked. I wanted to have real life experience. So I lived in the big city, Salt Lake. Salt Lake City. I moved from a little tiny town and just got like some real life experience of just being on my own and working and what that really felt like and looked like to be responsible for my own rent and finances and expenses of that. So. But I also really always wanted to move to Los Angeles, but I was like, I don't think LA is for a 19 year old, for an 18 year old.

[Anna Kai]

Very wise of you to think that, because they think a lot of people are like, I'm 19, I'm going to figure it out, you know.

[Katie Maloney]

No, but I didn't move here when I was 20.

[Anna Kai]

At least. You waited until you're 20?

[Katie Maloney]

Yeah. Yeah. So, I mean, I just. I try to be smart because I feel like LA is a really tough city and without even knowing that, I just, I could sense that because I'm from a really small town. So I was like, well, if I move to, like, a slightly bigger city where I'm not in my little mountain town bubble, maybe that kind of experience will get me ready for something more major.

[Anna Kai]

And it did for a year.

[Katie Maloney]

Yeah. I mean, I moved here in June, so of 20 or 20, not 20 2006.

[Anna Kai]

Oh, my gosh.

[Katie Maloney]

It's been nearly 18 years.

[Anna Kai]

That's wild, man. Before the crash.

[Katie Maloney]

Yeah, before that.

[Anna Kai]

That is.

[Katie Maloney]

I wasn't really affected by that. I was like, barely. Barely getting by.

[Anna Kai]

You were like. My whole life was a crash. So when the rest of the world came down to my level, I was like, great, I'm no longer the only hot mess here.

[Katie Maloney]

Yeah. The weather or the water's hot. Get in.

[Anna Kai]

Yeah. What was that like? Your first few years in la, were you. You knew you wanted to pursue acting when you came out here, Right? Is that why you moved out here or did you come out for a job?

[Katie Maloney]

That was always the plan. But I did get offered a job and that's really what inspired and kind of accelerated my move out here. So when I first moved out here, I was working for a fashion wardrobe stylist as an assistant and that was crazy because 90% of my job was running around town and I was brand new to a huge city and did not know what I was doing. We didn't have, you know, GPS on our phones or even maybe you would have one in your car, but, like, no one had that. I. So I had to get around with, like, printing out MapQuest directions. I remember those.

[Anna Kai]

The turn by turn direction.

[Katie Maloney]

Yeah, yeah.

[Anna Kai]

And go.3 miles. As if I know what.3 miles feels like on foot or in a car.

[Katie Maloney]

Or how long that takes. No. Yeah. So I learned really quickly. City and getting around, but also just life in la. And luckily I'm like one of those people that I am really, really great with directions. I can go somewhere one time and then get back there by memory.

[Anna Kai]

Oh, wow. I cannot say the same for myself.

[Katie Maloney]

I'm fortunate in that sense. But yeah, I mean, it was a tough few years. A couple years. I mean, I always tell everyone when they're new to this city that you're probably going to hate it for a couple years. If you can stick it out and find a good group of friends or where you like to live. Because it's a massive city. I mean, it's, it's not just one neighborhood. I think people kind of always tend to think that it's just like West Hollywood because that's like glamorized, I guess, but.

[Anna Kai]

Well, that's what's in the media.

[Katie Maloney]

Exactly. So they think. And. And I lived in West Hollywood for 13 years, and when I considered moving out, I'm like, but I'm moving so far away from everything. And then I was like, wait a minute. Every. This is not everything. Like, there's so much that the city has to offer and so many cool little pockets that you can like, go. And it just. Everything has its own sort of like, personality. Every neighborhood, whether you're on the west side.

[Anna Kai]

Well, LA is huge. And that's because I lived in New York City for 11 years and New York is actually very small. LA is this massive swath where like, huge neighborhoods exist and everybody kind of just sticks to their own neighborhood because it takes so damn long to drive everywhere.

[Katie Maloney]

But yeah, especially if you're on the west side. No, no, hate to the west side. I mean, I love it, but it's like once you're there, you're kind of like there, right? Like, you can't really. The accessibility isn't enough to bring me up. I don't know.

[Anna Kai]

Where do you live now?

[Katie Maloney]

I live in like Studio City. Valley Village, just over the hill in the Valley. The Valley.

[Anna Kai]

What precipitated that move?

[Katie Maloney]

Well, me and my ex husband, we wanted to buy a house and the houses are much more affordable over there. You get a little more bang for your buck than you do around here. And it's just, it's a slightly quieter, relatively speaking area. And I feel like I could get around a lot easier. There's not just tons of traffic right outside your door. It's not as noisy. There's parking, there's parking everywhere. So, yeah, when we bought our house, we moved out there in 2019 and.

[Anna Kai]

It'S kind of hard to go back. That's how I feel. Because we, my husband and I lived in the city for 11 years. We weren't together the whole time, but then we left. During the pandemic, we moved to Connecticut. And like, I mean, that's a massive change, going from Manhattan and midtown to Connecticut. And now I can't imagine going back. Could you ever see yourself coming back to West Hollywood?

[Katie Maloney]

Probably not, no. I mean, what I love about the area that I'M in is I can get anywhere and everywhere else so much easier. Because the 101's like, right there, you can just hop on and. I mean, there's still traffic, but it just feels like I can access everywhere else I want to go a lot easier. As opposed to. Once you're in West Hollywood, it's not like you're stuck. You're still in a pretty central area, too. You know, if you want to go west side or if you want to go east. But it's not as easy. But I really like it. I don't. I'm. I'm feeling like I want a change of scenery and. But I just. I hate moving. I hate moving so much that I'm just like, ugh, might as well just take it out.

[Anna Kai]

Yeah, might as well. But it's interesting because you've moved around a lot in your professional career, I feel like. So you're very good at that. Because I was actually wondering where your handle came from. Your Instagram handle. Musickillscate. And then I figured it out. Cause I was doing some Googling. Cause again, everything about you is online. But even before we get into what music kills Kate means, I found out that you, before Vanderpump, you were considering going into music publishing because you were starting to think, hey, maybe acting is not for me, right? And you kind of fell in love with publishing. And you and I share this in common because when I was a freshman in college, I interned at a music publishing company. It was Cherry Lane Music Publishing. They got bought by bmg. And I remember being an intern and just. I mean, this was 2010, and, like, I feel like technology was very different back then. Like, I would get an email from, like, the managers that would send it to all the interns and be like, here's a commercial client or a film client, and here's the vibe. It was always some vague email, like, some, you know, the tempo and, like, what they're looking for in the mood, and, like, go search through our archaic catalog and find a song. And I really liked it. And so what about publishing?

[Katie Maloney]

Did you like the longevity? And they're always going to need music for film and television. But I also really loved that aspect of finding the right type of music for a particular project or whether it was a commercial and just being able to submit the music that I thought was best because I could consider myself to be very audio, visual, like, being able to see something and know how, like, what kind of music could really evoke a sense or feeling or whatever emotion that they want tell a story. Yeah, exactly. So I just really, I really like that. I just like love, love music. So I thought like, well, you know, the record industry, unless it's like a major record label, it's, it's. People have always been concerned whether or not there's purpose or need for it because everyone can kind of publish their own music online. That it's like, what does, what does a record label offer you besides being indebted to them?

[Anna Kai]

Yeah. And money to get started.

[Katie Maloney]

Exactly. That's what I mean. So I was like, well, maybe I don't work at a record label, but I just kind of like became familiar with the publishing end of it all and licensing through interning at Warner Brother Records because I interned in both of their A departments. But then when other interns or assistants had to like leave town, they were like, can you come in and fill in in this department? And I just really enjoyed it.

[Anna Kai]

Do you think you could still go back to that? Because I think this was forever ago. I found this interview. It was 10 years ago. You had said that your ultimate goal was to own a small record label that was also under the umbrella of a music supervision company as well, doing songs for movies and television and working with artists and supervise them. I mean, do you still feel like that's like in the cards for you given how much has happened in the last 10 years and like now you are a business owner in a very different sense. But oh my God, I would love that.

[Katie Maloney]

I would love that because I do still enjoy music in the same capacity that I always have. And I always love like newer artists, emerging artists and finding that like band or the song that like no one's heard before. And I just thought like, it would always be cool to work with a really like not young artists in terms of age, but just like new to like industry and just like really like help, you know, make connections and help them along in, you know, their career. Because there's some people that I just like when I, when I. Even with my friends, when I find someone or an artist or band that I really, really like, I always want to champion for them and be like, who do I know that I can introduce you to that's going to help you? And that's just always been the person I am.

[Anna Kai]

So that's, that's awesome, you know, and also I really appreciate your love of early 2000s emo music. I mean, you talked about it like, it's like we're like around the same age and for Gen Z, I'M like, they missed that era because, like, Death Cat for Cutie's album plans, like, changed my life and, like, I don't know. Were you in high school when that came out?

[Katie Maloney]

Do you remember what year was this?

[Anna Kai]

I don't remember, but I remember I was solidly in high school.

[Katie Maloney]

I graduated in 04.

[Anna Kai]

Okay, so maybe you were in college.

[Katie Maloney]

But I wasn't in college.

[Anna Kai]

Or you were of college age.

[Katie Maloney]

Sorry, had I gone to college? Perhaps, but yeah. Yes. Yeah.

[Anna Kai]

Or maybe you were in your one semester of college. Who knows? I need to look up when they. When that came out. But do you remember that song, I Will Follow youw Into the Dark? Yeah. And I remember every single boy in high school who had ever even looked at a guitar learned how to play that song. It was like a teenage mating call. And I also learned how to play it, you know, on guitar, like, very, very poorly. It's actually not, like, a super difficult song to learn on guitar. The chords are, you know, fairly basic. And I don't mean that as, like, any sort of shade. It's a brilliant song, but I think that's why so many people learned how to play it. But did you ever learn. Cause you love music. Did you ever learn how to play an instrument or be a musician, or were you just, like, an admirer of music?

[Katie Maloney]

I. I did for a little while pick up guitar, and I did lessons and the whole thing, but I was. I was never really great at that. And so if I can't be really good at something, I almost, like, I'm discouraged. I'm not one of those people that, like, is like, I'm gonna. I. It just felt like one of those things. I'm like. I just feel like I'm just probably never gonna quite get this, and I don't want to grow to resent it, so I'm just gonna. Not. Even though I still have a guitar, but now I have wear nails usually all the time. So I don't. I don't know. But when I was younger, I played in band. I played the clarinet and the saxophone.

[Anna Kai]

Sexy.

[Katie Maloney]

Yeah, real sexy. I know. I was like, I do.

[Anna Kai]

Which you could still do with nails, I think.

[Katie Maloney]

Yeah. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. I sometimes pick up the saxophone and we'll like.

[Anna Kai]

Do you still remember how to play?

[Katie Maloney]

Barely.

[Anna Kai]

And also you own a saxophone that you can just pick up and play?

[Katie Maloney]

Yeah, I own a beautiful song. It's like a black saxophone. I want to. I would actually take lessons and get back into that because I feel like that's Because I was. I was very good at it.

[Anna Kai]

Saxophone.

[Katie Maloney]

Oh, yeah. I was like firsthand jazz band and shit. Yeah.

[Anna Kai]

Oh my God. This third alert. Yeah, I love that. And also, if I'd known that, I would have had you bring your sax.

[Katie Maloney]

I've never played in front of them well, in a long time, but I was like, maybe once I can like, get a little bit more comfortable with it. I don't remember all like, the fingering, but I mean, I can still read music and things like that. I just have to like, re. Learn what notes.

[Anna Kai]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, you would just. Because, you know, it. It's just kind of. It's like you never forget how to ride a bike. Like, you're probably never going to forget how to play sax. You just need to brush up on yours.

[Katie Maloney]

I don't have a lot of time these days, but when I do, that's probably something I'm gonna.

[Anna Kai]

And that feels like something. Cause I feel like people are always telling me, you know, my therapist used to tell me when I was always so stressed out, she's like, what do you do for fun? You know, something that doesn't make you money, that isn't like a responsibility or whatever. And I'm like, I don't know, Like, I don't have hobbies. Like, truly, I don't. Like, I go out to dinner with my husband, I hang out with my dog, but I don't have hobbies. And also I love my job. So, like, it's so unique. I get to just do this for my job. So I don't feel like I need a break from it. But occasionally I'm. I also go fucking nuts. And like, my therapist was like, you need something to do that just is pure joy. And like, the saxophone could be that for you.

[Katie Maloney]

Yeah, I mean, I. Playing music, listening to music, going to shows, that's like what I do for fun.

[Anna Kai]

Right?

[Katie Maloney]

So I could easily turn that into work to get it.

[Anna Kai]

Yeah, yeah. It's always like, well, how should I turn that into? I mean, was there something in your childhood or like adolescence that made you realize you love music? Because I asked this question because I always assumed I love music. I mean, I grew up just like, you remember the, like, cassettes, and then it was the portable CD players. And then it was the first iteration of the MP3 player. It wasn't an iPhone, it was an MP3 player. That was huge. It was like that box that all of a sudden you could put 100 songs onto, whereas before you'd only have to. You'd have to listen to one CD at a time. Yeah. And I thought everyone loved music, or at least some type of music. And then I met my husband, who's not really into music. It's not that he dislikes it, but, like, there are people that are just not that into music and they're not that artistically incline.

[Katie Maloney]

And I feel.

[Anna Kai]

And I. Thinking about it, I was like, why do I love music? Well, it's. Cause, like, I feel like I went through a lot of shit growing up as a kid, and, like, music was my escape. Like, you remember Good Charlotte in their inception?

[Katie Maloney]

Yeah, yeah.

[Anna Kai]

And that, you know, that first album, I was an angsty teenager listening to, you know, the Anthem and like, hold on and all that. It was like, you know, it was the only thing that I had that I felt like I didn't have therapy. So I had Good Charlotte, you know. I mean, did you have that growing up? Like, what was it like in Park City? Did something make you love music?

[Katie Maloney]

I mean, I've just. I always just really loved music. And I did dance for a long time, so that was a big component of dancing, you know, was music. And in high school, I started making playlists for my friends, burning CDs, aka playlist. And they always, like, love them. So I was like, okay, so I guess I'm like a tastemaker.

[Anna Kai]

You were an influencer before you even knew it.

[Katie Maloney]

And then when I was introduced to, like, the Scene, as we call it, which was like, a lot of, you know, undiscovered bands playing in these, like, dingy, makeshift, you know, music venues. There's one in Park City or in Salt Lake called Kilby Court. And it was, like, down a really narrow, like, almost alleyway, and it was a converted shed and there was a fire pit. And, like, everyone just, like, hung out and, like, smoked cigarettes at the fire pit. And it was just the smallest, sweatiest venue with the stage was like, in a corner and it was maybe like 8 by 8ft. Like, not big at all, but it was incredible. And I was like, this is the coolest thing I've ever seen. Like, all these, like, bands. I don't. They're not. They're not like Good Charlottes. They weren't the some 41s that. But, you know, they were bands that the. That were influenced by them. So it was like all that same music and emo music. Going to, like, Warped Tour. It was like, oh, my God, Warped Tour.

[Anna Kai]

That is the name I haven't heard in so long.

[Katie Maloney]

Yeah. And it's just I don't know. I just was like, these are my people. I resonate so much with the indie emo music of the 20. Sorry, why do I keep saying 2023? 2003 to 2005 was such an incredible time for me. Just some of the bands that came out then. My Chemical Romance was playing really teeny, tiny shows in 2003 and 2004, but then they blew up. So seeing the emergence of bands that eventually got big, or maybe not quite as big, but. And they're all. And now there's another resurgence now happening where, like, all those bands I loved and went to go see on Warped Tour are, like, touring again. And it's such a cool time to, like, reunion.

[Anna Kai]

I know.

[Katie Maloney]

Yeah. So that area makes me feel old.

[Anna Kai]

Yeah.

[Katie Maloney]

The younger. The younger generation, they are really getting to experience it almost in the same way that we did because these bands are playing live again. But, yeah, it's just. I don't know. I just always love music. And then being introduced to that world, like, really set it off for me.

[Anna Kai]

And you were like, this is home. This feels like I found my people, which is awesome.

[Katie Maloney]

Yeah, I know. And then. But the problem is I got introduced to, like, dudes and bands and their trouble. And it's still an issue for me now, but I don't know.

[Anna Kai]

Maybe working on it.

[Katie Maloney]

Maybe I'll recover. I don't know. I don't. I just. I have no idea.

[Anna Kai]

But was there a song or an album that got you through, like, the toughest days of your divorce? Because I. You know, because there are songs that I listen to now from maybe five, eight years ago, where it's like a visceral. I, like, remember. I'm like, oh, my God. I remember exactly what I was. Where I was in life. When I was listening to the song on repeat.

[Katie Maloney]

I wouldn't say there was any songs that, like, got me through, but because it's so precious to me, all that, like, it's just all like. I'm trying to think if there's anyone, like, super specific, but I just really immersed myself back into all of that because it made me feel connected to some. A time that I really loved in a version of me that I really loved. So it's just. It's kind of like, as a. As a whole, I don't think there's any one specific album that really, like. I mean, there's a lot, but one specific. I mean, I always, like, was such a big co. Eden Cambria fan, so I've just, like, just.

[Anna Kai]

Oh, My gosh.

[Katie Maloney]

Started consuming all of it, all the time. And then I got really into like, metal. So that's.

[Anna Kai]

Oh, wow. That's. I could never do that. I never got into metal.

[Katie Maloney]

There was like hardcore stuff that we'd go. I, like, I was into back in the day, but now, like, metal is a big one for me.

[Anna Kai]

Is that what you're listening to these days?

[Katie Maloney]

I'm listening to everything, but, like, metal's definitely, like up there for sure.

[Anna Kai]

You're playing saxophone and listening to metal. Like, who are you?

[Katie Maloney]

Well, I mean, saxophone could fit into like, maybe like some swancore vibes, which is like, they mix a lot of like, jazz elements into the music, even though it's like post like hardcore music.

[Anna Kai]

That's so interesting. That is so wild. That's so cool.

[Katie Maloney]

So maybe I could. Yeah, maybe there's a place.

[Anna Kai]

Maybe there's a place for. Yeah, this is the next business of yours, the band you start. Saxophone. Oh, no, metal saxophone. You know, I think what I loved about your divorce. Not the fact that you got divorced, obviously, I'm sorry about that. But you know what's really empowering about that whole situation and how it went down is that like, you expressed your needs, you gave your ex husband multiple chances and your needs were not met and you left. And it sounds like such a simple thing, but you were like, I'm not getting what I need and I'm probably not going to, so I'm not going to sit here and try to fix this situation. Whereas, like, you know, because of the nature of my content, I get a lot of DMs from women who are in the position you were in maybe in 2021. Because you said you kind of saw the writing on the wall for a while before. Obviously, it's not like you wake up one day and you decide to get divorced.

[Katie Maloney]

No, it's always kind of a process. Yeah, I mean, you definitely wake up and I think once that little voice starts to creep up in your head, maybe it's not like I want to get a divorce, but like, hey, maybe this isn't the life and the future and everything that you wanted. And maybe there's something to pay attention to there. Like, I think it's like that was sort of internal dialogue I started having with myself because I. For a long time, yeah, I normalized bad behavior and treatment that I just didn't deserve. And I'm not saying that I was innocent in all of it. Of course I can be very difficult, but ultimately I just was with someone that didn't know how to be a partner. And I really wanted that. I wanted that kind of marriage and that type of life as somebody where we're both building something together. We both have the same goals and intentions and everything like that. And I just, like. It wasn't there. And I kept thinking, like, well, maybe once we get past this, you know, season, or, you know, maybe once he opens the bar, or maybe. And it just. It never. It never happened. And I think all of us did different things during pandemic to, like, take care of ourselves. And I was just like, I've been feeling not great about myself, and I was, like, insecure about a lot of things, and I wanted to. To just work on feeling better about myself and, like, practice affirmations and. And that stuff is very powerful, and it really works. And so I think once I started to feel a lot more confident and I had that sort of boost of. I don't know, what do you mean, serotonin and happy. Like, I just started to love myself again. And I think through that process, I was looking at the rest of my life being like, hold on. Like, I don't deserve this. I would. I just. I always thought I did. I don't know. I think I just normalized it so much to myself. But I. Yeah, I just wanted to be happy. And I was still very much in love with him. And it was really heartbreaking to come to that sort of conclusion of, like, understanding what's best for me, but just trying to fight it.

[Anna Kai]

I think that is the strongest thing any woman can do, because it's not like you fell out of love with him. Because it's easy to break up with somebody. Like, I have never broken up with somebody that I'm, like, actively in love with. I've always been dumped by the person that I'm in love with. And, you know, it's like thinking about breaking up with some of my exes in the middle of being in love with them. I mean, that's so tough because it's so easy to break up with a guy that you're like, yeah, I fell out of love with you. Right? But you were still in love with him, and you were just like, but I'm just not getting what I need, and I need to put me first.

[Katie Maloney]

I mean. Yeah, I mean, there was. There were things that I became checked out of once I really started to, like, put my head in it.

[Anna Kai]

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[Katie Maloney]

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[Katie Maloney]

So I mean like maybe I was still in love with him, but emotionally it became very difficult to be with him because you know, when someone doesn't show up for you the way it hurts. There was a lot of hurt that was built up. There was a lot of, you know, I mean, he had like cheated on me in the past and so there were things I hadn't healed that were definitely weighing on me and affected my feelings towards him. But like all in all, yeah, I was still very much in love with this person and wanted to be with them, but they just didn't know how.

[Anna Kai]

Yeah, but I think so many women in your position would not pull the trigger and are still with the men who don't treat them well, but they're in love with them. So what would you say to those women, women who are maybe in the position you were in in 2021. Like, how do you pull the trigger when you know? Because so much of my advice is not because people don't know it. It's because people don't want to act on it.

[Katie Maloney]

Yeah. I think it is the hardest thing to take a leap of faith, to bet on yourself, to really center de. Center everything else and put yourself at the center of it all. Because it feels counterintuitive to us as, like, being with somebody and wanting to care for them and be a partner and show for them to all of a sudden turn it around and just start to focus on your own needs. And I think a lot of times there's a. I don't want to, like, bring emotional abuse into it, but that's kind of, I think, a big part of it, because I think so many women feel that they don't deserve more and that if they leave, they have to start over. And what if they're alone forever? So, like, maybe I'll just stick it out. You know, maybe I can just stay with him. Maybe we can try therapy or maybe the lies we tell ourselves, basically.

[Anna Kai]

Oh, my God. I mean, we're experts at gaslighting ourselves.

[Katie Maloney]

So I think just like, anyone that's feeling that way just needs to. I don't know if it's like writing lists, journaling, however it is that you can get your inner thoughts out and, like, the. To the core, the deepest bits of you to see them in front of you. And I think that's a big thing if you were actually writing it out and seeing it, like, in front of your face and not just, like, thinking on it or, you know, reflecting on it, but really seeing it. I think you'll begin to realize that, like, wow, like, I really want more for myself and just decide whether that's important to you or not, which it should be. But I think it can be really. I know it's difficult because once you start saying those things out loud, you cannot take them back.

[Anna Kai]

Right.

[Katie Maloney]

It's really hard to just ignore the voice. The voice for me, got really loud. So I just think if you're already kind of in that place, it's probably not going to get better because you're entertaining thoughts. You obviously have feelings. There's obviously elements about the relationship that aren't working. And I mean, and not to say that it can't turn around for a lot of people, but it takes two to do that. Yeah. So I just think. I think being brave and not being scared and the unknown at first is really scary because that your Life as you knew it, the future we're building is gone and done. But understanding that, you're like, no, now I can decide what kind of life I want. Like, what's gonna, like, fill my cup every day? What's gonna make me happy? And you don't have to worry about someone else's feelings. You don't have to worry about how they make you feel. You get to just really put yourself at the center of your life, in your universe. And the unknown now is, like, really exciting. I'm like, I don't know. I don't know where I'm gonna be next year. Who knows? I could be anywhere. I could meet anyone. Anything could happen. And I think just having slightly delusional mentality helped me.

[Anna Kai]

That's amazing. But it's starting. It's like, you know the whole metaphor of the Phoenix rising from the ashes. Right. Because I'm a sucker for metaphors. But it is true. It's like you burned off. You burned your old life down to the ground, and now what are you gonna build on top of it? And you can build anything because you're not working with an old. I mean, I talk about this a lot. I think about. I live in Connecticut. There's a ton of old houses. And sometimes you look at these old houses and people have tried to add on to these old houses because the kitchen too small back then, or like, you know, and then. But they look like Frankenstein houses. You know, it's like they don't look right because it wasn't the original structure. And they're trying to, you know, make up for what just wasn't working. And it's still not really working, but now you have an extra bedroom off of the garage. That doesn't make sense. And I think of relationships like that where it's like, if you're trying to build onto a foundation that doesn't support what you're trying to build, it's better to just demolish it. And that's what people do. They demolish old houses and they build a new on the land, and then the new house is somewhere and it fits today's needs, and it's got all the fancy things, and, like, that's what you're building, you know? Yeah. And, like, that's kind of how you're living your best life right now. So I'm curious, because you were with Tom for so long, and people always say that the person you marry is not the person you divorce. Do you feel like the Tom you divorced was the same Tom you Married and you just ignored it? Or do you think he changed as you guys grew up together because of how long you were together?

[Katie Maloney]

A lot of times I think he is the same person I married, and that person is wonderful. But that person I also fell in love with when I was 25 years old, and I'm not 25. I've grown a lot and I've had to drag him through, but I feel like I really had to drag him through a lot of phases in life of, like, committing, moving in together, getting engaged, getting married, talking about having kids. Like, all of those things. I just feel like I was constantly just like, come on, you can do it. Come on. And I don't know why I did that. I just felt like he just was so unsure. It wasn't because he necessarily didn't want to or couldn't, but that he was just, like, unsure. And he needed, like, confidence, support, like, whatever. I don't know. He needed a woman to prop him up, as usual. But I think just. Yeah, when I look back, I'm like, wow. Like, no, it's. I just grew and he didn't. Or we didn't grow together at the same pace. And I just. I can't be in this, like, arrested Development with him where I'm just sort of stuck in that place. Like, I really felt like I was meant to be more in a different person, and I couldn't do that in that relationship. And, like, he was content with how things were and still up to the same, no good. You know, he just. He wanted to, like, hang out with his friends and do that. And I was just like, okay, like, I get that. Like, I love spending time with my friends, but, like, I also want us to come home to each other every night and do that thing as well. And he just. It just. It didn't. He didn't get it. And I couldn't understand why. So I. Yeah, I think ultimately just history kept repeating itself over and over, and it kind of just beat me down into. Into that place where I just felt like, okay, well, this. I guess I've been with him for so long. I'm getting to this age. Do I really want to start over? Can I start over? Will I meet someone? Am I worthy of that? Like, really sad thoughts. But, I mean, when I had to be honest with myself and be like, but nothing's gonna change. He's not gonna change. He doesn't wanna change. And I can't. This is one change I cannot drag him through.

[Anna Kai]

So, you know, I always say, don't be friends with your ex, kind of as a general rule of thumb. But what is so interesting about you and Tom is that you've maintained a friendship. I mean, not without struggle, but you guys are on good terms. And I think part of that, you know, you have to work together. I mean. But do you think it was possible. Did you think it was possible to be friends with your ex prior to Tom, or have you learned?

[Katie Maloney]

I. No. I mean, yeah, I. I always thought it was so sad when you would be in a relationship with somebody or be so close to that person and then you break up and you become like, strangers. Like, I think it's. Is just feels wrong to me, and it's not an excuse to keep someone around, but it just feels like if they were once up special to you, they should try to remain in your life in some capacity. So, I mean, like, I'm not like, super tight with all my exes, but, like, they could to. Every now and then you get a text, how's life? How are things? How's your kids? How's the family? How's that? And it's really nice that there's still that we can maintain some semblance of a relationship. And with Tom, and I think our problem was never our friendship. We had a great friendship. It was when I needed him to step up to be a partner. That's where he couldn't struggle. That's where he struggled the most. So when we broke up and there was no longer that pressure on him or on I. Or on this, like, marriage and relationship that we had together, I gotta just go like this and be like, all right, like, however you show up, you can show up however you want to. This. Because I. It doesn't.

[Anna Kai]

I don't need anything from you.

[Katie Maloney]

Yeah, I don't. So we just kind of have been able to have that sort of fun banter and talk. And like, we did. That little part of what we had is still there. Even though it's not romantic. It's nothing like that. It's just.

[Anna Kai]

Well, maybe your friendship is what kept you together for so long.

[Katie Maloney]

I think that has a lot to do with it because we had. We did have a lot of fun. And I really liked him.

[Anna Kai]

Right.

[Katie Maloney]

You know, I thought he was just a fun guy, funny, like, good sense of humor. He's really smart. All of those things that you really like out of friendships that you don't need anyone to have any real responsibility to you. We're all there. But.

[Anna Kai]

Yeah, and I think that's the toughest part is so many of us, you know, myself included. I think you want to demonize your ex and say, like, they were the bad guy, but it's like, okay, like, of course, I'm sure he did things that were not great, and maybe you did things that were not great, but at the end of the day, you still like him as a person. And I think that takes a really big person to admit that, because, you know, it's over, and you sort of. I think the immediate aftermath is you always want to blame somebody, but it's like, look, he's not there. I mean, we all have our opinions on what happened there, and I think, you know, you deserve better. But at the end of the day, he's not a bad guy, and you can still be friends with him. I mean, do you think you'd be friends with him if you didn't have to work with him? I think so.

[Katie Maloney]

I mean, we have dogs, and we don't. We're not sharing the dog's, like, one week.

[Anna Kai]

A custom arrangement.

[Katie Maloney]

I mean, we tried that for a while, but ultimately, I feel like it was causing us to be in a. A lot more contact, which I. As much as I want to, like, be tied with him, I don't. I have to tell him my schedule every single week. I don't really want to know his schedule every week. And also, most importantly, I think it was harder on the dogs because they really thrive in, like, their routine, and they're. You know, they got. And he was always the one that implemented all that. Like, I did other stuff in the household, but, like, he was always like, the dog. You know, the dog guy. He can make their dinner. Like, I couldn't make their dinner, because what he does for them is. Is insane, and I will never do that. What does he do for that? He would just chew up. If he's making. Like. If he's putting steak in there, he'll, like, chew up the steak and then spit it into the bowl.

[Anna Kai]

Oh, my God. Really?

[Katie Maloney]

And then mix it up with his fingers. He's like. It really integrates all the flavors in the juice. I'm like, most dogs just get kibble, but, like, these dogs are so spoiled by him and the attention that he gives them that, like, I'm never gonna match that. And also, they're like. They're like his. I love them endlessly, right? But he. They're like his lifeline.

[Anna Kai]

Okay?

[Katie Maloney]

So I just knew that, like, okay, if push came to shove and, like, one of us was gonna move out of state, or something. They're. They're not gonna come with me. I'm not gonna do that to him. And it breaks my heart, but I just.

[Anna Kai]

It would break his heart.

[Katie Maloney]

Oh, my God. Yeah. And we're not gonna separate them. So I just. Having. Having the sort of week on, week off or then sometimes a little bit longer kind of helped prepare me for that because it was just going from like, being with him every day to like, not was the hardest part. But I got acclimated to not being with them as much. And so now I'm with them even less. But I mean, I can see them anytime I want.

[Anna Kai]

Right.

[Katie Maloney]

Or if he, like, is traveling or goes outside, like, I think so I still, like, they're still with me like every four to six weeks for a little period of time. And it's nice.

[Anna Kai]

It's just not as regimented of a schedule.

[Katie Maloney]

Yeah, they just. They need. They need familiarity, they need consistency. He and I both have very different schedules and lifestyles and. And I'm not gonna get on his pattern and he's not gonna get on mine.

[Anna Kai]

That's how you got divorced, right?

[Katie Maloney]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Anna Kai]

Do you think you'll get married again? I mean, I assume you wanna find, like. Because I have a girlfriend going through a divorce right now, and she shares a kid with her ex husband. So that's a whole different level. You can't just be like, yeah, I'm actually just only gonna see my kid. You know, it's different. I'm a dog mom. So, like, I get it, but I'm sorry, kids are different than dogs. And she's like, you know, I don't wanna get married again, but I want a life partner. I want on companionship. She's like, I'm very open to that, but I don't need the paper and all of that. So how do you feel about that? Post divorce?

[Katie Maloney]

Yeah. If it means not having to get divorced again, then I will avoid marriage because it's really devastating. No matter who asks for it, no matter how necessary it is. It is really just a mind fuck to go through that with somebody and then you just get this notification like, all right, you're divorced, just like that. It's so funny because the marriage part of it's so celebratory. It's so fun and everyone's obsessed with it and everyone's so happy. And then you get to divorce. Everyone's like, ooh, it's just so like, ugh. I don't know. I don't. I don't like it. But if I met someone and like fell in love and they loved me and they were like, I really want marriage. I really, like, that is super important to me. I'd be like.

[Anna Kai]

You would do it for them?

[Katie Maloney]

I would do it for them. But for myself, like, no. I mean, I definitely, like, don't want to be solo alone forever.

[Anna Kai]

You don't want to be alone forever?

[Katie Maloney]

No. I mean, we all like companionship. We all kind of want that person to like, spend vacations with and holidays with and those special, you know, the.

[Anna Kai]

First call after something good happened.

[Katie Maloney]

For sure. Yeah. But I don't know, like, I have such great friendships with like my girlfriends right now that it's almost like, unless you can compete with that and with myself, like, no.

[Anna Kai]

Yeah, you're not welcome into my life.

[Katie Maloney]

It's so not a priority to meet someone right now because, you know, I've met people, but they're just so disappointing. It's really. It is so tragic. It's.

[Anna Kai]

Well, dating in la. I mean, I dated in New York City, which I thought was enough of a shit show, but I feel like dating in LA is its own shit show because I hear from people out here that. I know that it's like, it's just crazy because due to the fact that entertainment is the main industry out here that bleeds a lot into dating and just the men out here, I mean, what's your experience? And also, I don't even know how to even be begin dating as you where, like, we were talking about this, like, everybody can find out everything about you or at least a lot about you. Maybe not everything. But how do you navigate dating?

[Katie Maloney]

I do my best. But yeah, it's. It's always interesting because when you meet somebody and you know, maybe you get on social media and they see, like, they start, oh, okay. Because if they, if they meet me out, they might not know the most. Most guys that I'm meeting, my. They're not watching Bravo.

[Anna Kai]

Really? Oh, my God. All my husband's friends watch with their wives. Sometimes the wives don't watch. And these are My husband's friends are like finance bros. So this is not, yeah, a lot of interesting.

[Katie Maloney]

I mean, but that's just not as common. Usually if I meet someone and they like, know the show, I'm like, who cooked you? Like, and they're like, oh, I used to watch with like my ex. And I was like, okay, well, that origin story makes a lot more sense, right? I'm not judging a guy that sits at home and watches some housewives. I was like, it's great, great. It's culture, but.

[Anna Kai]

It's culture.

[Katie Maloney]

It is, but yeah. So then I usually have to explain it. And they're asking a lot of questions. They're like, oh, should I, Should I check it out? And I'm like, no. Like, if they happen to have seen the show, what can I do about it? They're still sitting here talking to me. So clearly I didn't completely turn them off. But I just. I don't know why someone would want to watch it. That was a whole lifetime. Basically. I lived on a show of, like, a life that isn't mine anymore. And I'm like, I don't know if you want to, like, watch me, like, get engaged and get married and do that whole thing with like, another person, like, go ahead. But I don't know, I just. I want someone to, like, get to know me in real life. Right. The person I am today and not just from a TV show, from seasons back where I'm like, you're a different person, different place. Yeah, I just. I've had like 17 software updates since then, so I just like, I can't, like, imagine, like them trying to compare that version to me. And I just, I feel like it's not great, but they can still go on a Google. And that's kind of not fair, right? Because sometimes there's just like, articles that pop up and without a lot of context, they're like, what is this about? Like, are you beefing with all these people? I'm like, that's just gossip column, you know, like talking about fights. Like, it's so much to explain to a person, but I do worry that it would be a turn off for someone and that just would mean that they're not for me. But I'm gonna probably run into that a.

[Anna Kai]

But I think the right person is not gonna care. They're gonna figure out who you are, like, face to face in the present moment. I mean, how do you meet guys or girls or anything, you know? How do you meet people right now?

[Katie Maloney]

Through friends mostly. Like just in the wild. Irl? Yeah, like through friends. I mean, that's my favorite way to meet somebody because they're kind of vetted. They're like, he's not a creep. He's actually a really good guy. I can get like a little more background on the person. Whereas apps freak me out. I never.

[Anna Kai]

Have you ever done them?

[Katie Maloney]

Okay. The only time I ever did taking out was when we went to Europe this holiday season.

[Anna Kai]

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[Katie Maloney]

They'Re living in it.

[Anna Kai]

Open the moment. Shop [e-mail] oh, and that seems not.

[Katie Maloney]

Exactly safe, but you would be surprised.

[Anna Kai]

I feel like I'm not going to do a dating app in my hometown of la, where I know my way around and how to escape, but I'll go to Europe and date some stranger on there.

[Katie Maloney]

Yeah, exactly what happened.

[Anna Kai]

Okay, wait, so walk me through what happened.

[Katie Maloney]

Well, we were. So I was with a couple of my girlfriends and we were going to London, and then we went to Barcelona, Spain, and then we went to Lisbon. So it was just kind of like, wonder what's it like out here in these streets with these guys? And I did end up meeting with. Meeting up with one, and he was so attractive and so nice and. And, like, I had shared my location with my friends. Like, I was like, you know, it was middle of the day, so.

[Anna Kai]

Brought your pepper spray? I felt.

[Katie Maloney]

No, I felt. I feel like I'm pretty good at reading people and, like, energy and understanding.

[Anna Kai]

If they're safe or not. Yeah.

[Katie Maloney]

So I was like, I can. I'll just leave if that's the case. Like, you know, it's not like you knew where I was staying or anything like that, but. Yeah, no, it was a lot of fun. But, like, I just felt like, because I'm like, I'm never going to, like, probably see any of these people again. Like, what does it matter if, like, in the likelihood of them knowing, like, who I am? I don't know. Yeah. Here. I just feel like I'm like, I can meet all those, like, rodents out in the world. Why. Why do I. Why do I need to play the numbers game and quantify my dating experience? It just feels like such a sport and it's. Again, it's just not been a priority to me. I'm like, I feel like. I don't know, I just don't like to go on, like, a bunch of dates.

[Anna Kai]

Right.

[Katie Maloney]

It's not how I like to spend my time. I'd rather hang out with my friends.

[Anna Kai]

Well, you're, like, fulfilled enough. Like, you don't feel lonely in your personal life. So it's like, why would I then take time away from people I know I like spending time with to go sit on A bunch of first dates with men that I probably don't like as much, you know. Cause it's just not a priority right now. Which is great.

[Katie Maloney]

Yeah. And I don't need a free meal anymore, so I'm good. I just. But yeah, no, I'm not trying to like fill a position in my life. Right. My life is rocks as I know it. So if I meet someone and they can really compete with everything else I got going on, then cool. But yeah, I just, I just don't feel like forcing that into my life. And I'm at this point too where it's like, I also don't do like casual dating very well because I can either it's going to be miserable or I'm going to really like somebody and.

[Anna Kai]

That'S, it's like there's no in between and.

[Katie Maloney]

Exactly. And some people just. I want to be so casual and nonchalant about stuff and the nonchalant stuff really irks me because I'm very like intentional with people. Like I like really am direct and transparent and I communicate things and when I get the wishy washy, kick the can around, shit, I'm just like, I gotta go.

[Anna Kai]

And that's, there's so much of that in the big cities. And that's what I struggled with when I was dating is that so many guys were like, oh, I really like you, you're so special. But you know, I don't know, you know, And I'm just like, okay, well if I'm not great, like why aren't you trying to take the next step? And it's like so hard. I think it's our generation too. We're a very non committal generation and I don't know what that is, but it's like, I always think it's so bizarre that people are, oh, we're exclusive, but we're not boyfriend, girlfriend. I'm like, what the fuck does that mean? Right? Because it's like to me, if you are on a traditional path towards marriage, if that is the end goal, and it might not be for a lot of people, but for a lot of people it is. The boyfriend girlfriend, dating phase is the test phase for marriage. Why is there a test phase then? For the test phase? Like you're in this weird, you know.

[Katie Maloney]

It'S like talking stage situationships, exclusive stage.

[Anna Kai]

Maybe boyfriend girlfriend, you know, it's bizarre and I think it all comes down to people are so afraid of making the wrong decision that they don't make any decision. And therefore like they just are directionless with their life. You know, I heard this great thing I remember from a college professor one time. They were like, if spoiled for choice, do not fail to choose something, because without choice, the world becomes unmanaged. And I very much felt like that, you know, in college. I was like, I don't know what I'm gonna do with my. Like, you know, the world's your freaking oyster. And in some ways, I felt that again when I was researching you, because you, by far, so have been the most. There's so much about you that it was almost like, what do I even focus on? You know, because your life is just. You've lived it in front of everybody for so long. And so it's like, that's the thing. It's like, what do you choose? Because, like, you're spoiled for choice.

[Katie Maloney]

Oh, I know. I choose myself. That's what I choose, 100%. Because I. Yeah, I don't. I don't understand people that want experiences like a partnership or companionship or commitment, but don't themselves understand the responsibility or their end of it all. And that's confusing, right? And frustrating. And I just. Yeah, I. I don't know. I. Especially sometimes I'm. Because I'm like, you're like, 35. Like, what are you still out here being like, I just am not long further in my career than I want to be. And I'm like, I. Whoever is, I know the more successful you become, the more success you want. The more money you make, the more money you want to make, the more like. Like, I don't think you're ever going to be completely satisfied.

[Anna Kai]

Well, the goalpost is always moving. And I realized that because I always thought, like, oh, if I ever got to this point, I'd feel like I've made it, I'm good, you know, I don't need more. And now I'm just like, now I want more, you know, and it's you again. If you're just a driven person and you achieve things, it's just. There's always more. And the men who used to say to me in New York, I can't be with you because I'm not where I want to be in my career or my life. I'm like, that's just, like, such a cop out. I'd rather honestly have you tell me that you don't like me enough to want to commit to me, Then tell me it's your life circumstance. Because I had that happen. The guy I dated prior to meeting my husband broke up with Me, Really? Because I was the first girl I think he dated after he broke off his engagement. So I think I met him like two weeks after his ex fiance moved out. And he wasn't expecting to get into. He was just going to try out the apps, right. For the first time in his 30s. And I was his first date or second, I don't know, you know, but I was up there and I remember saying to him, I'm not gonna hook up with you unless this is a committed. And I was very, very intentional. Like you are. I don't date casually. I don't even know what. I don't know how to be casual. Like, I hate small talk, you know, because I'm just like, let's just get to the core of who you are and what this is. And so. And I think, you know, we had enough of a connection where he was like, yeah, like, I think he thought. I don't think he was trying to deceive me. But May was deceiving himself into thinking that he was ready for a relationship when he wasn't. Because who would be after breaking off an engagement.

[Katie Maloney]

Totally.

[Anna Kai]

And so he broke up with me nine months later. And he told me it was because it was. He was not where he wanted to be with his life and his career and he wasn't ready to be with somebody. But I see him on the apps because we met on an app. So you can see when the person's like, active again and he's like changing his bio. I'm like, you just were not ready to commit to another girl. You wanted to see what kind of person you wanted. And like, that to me was like, more insulting because again, it's like, don't use your career as a cop out. Right.

[Katie Maloney]

Because the fine print there is that I'm just not into you.

[Anna Kai]

I'm just not that into you. Or I thought I could do better than you, you know, and that is.

[Katie Maloney]

The case of death, when people get into like, the grass is greener thing, that it becomes cyclical and that they stay in that cycle for a really long time.

[Anna Kai]

Well, I'm sure you've seen it. I mean, LA is like the.

[Katie Maloney]

Yeah, there's just. Everyone's looking for the next thing. Truthfully, I just would. I've had like, I've had maybe two guys in my whole dating experience before Tom to now be straight up with me being like, hey, there's somebody else that I was also seeing and I like really want to pursue that person. And I think you're wonderful and this and that and like. And I had so much respect for them that they were just so kind about it and just really just brutally honest. And I didn't feel like they were trying to like sugarcoat any. It was just there and I was like, damn, like, thank you, I appreciate that. Rather than like ghosting or just like giving me the bullshit, like, excuse of not being further along in your career.

[Anna Kai]

Because it's like, you know, I will say I did have one guy tell me that he was going to pursue something with somebody else. And this was after. And this is where the opposite thing sort of happened to me. Like, and this man was totally unhinged in retrospect. But I rem. I went on one date with a guy and he was like perfect on paper. He was really good looking and it was a great date. And then we had went on a date right before Christmas. You know, like Christmas kind of always like screws everything up when you first start seeing somebody. Because like, I left for two weeks and he was gone and everybody is like gone to see family. And we were texting all throughout Christmas and New Year's and he was like, I can't wait to see you. And you know, we get back and I was like, cool. And then like right after New Year's Day, he texts me and he's like, hey, Anna, like, I loved meeting you and spending time with you, like all fucking one and a half hours I spent with you on our only date. And he was like, but I have to be upfront. I met somebody else shortly before meeting you. And the relationship progressed very quickly. And I feel like I'm at a point with her right now where like, it wouldn't be fair to continue seeing you. And I was like, wow, respect. Right? And I was like, totally understand. Thank you. So was I disappointed? Yeah, because I had also spent the last like two weeks kind of texting with him thinking, you know, you're like, oh my God, like I'm going to see this person again, right?

[Katie Maloney]

I was like, I know.

[Anna Kai]

And I was a little disappointed, but I was like, whatever. It was one date. And he was like, but if it doesn't work out with her, you'll be the first person I call. And I was kind of like a little taken aback by that comment. I was like, haha, I hope for both of our six that doesn't happen. And I was serious because I was like, even though I was like a hot mess at the time, I was in my 20s, didn't know what I was doing with my Career. There was a lot going on. I had just broken up with a very long term relationship that I'd been living with. And I was like, you're not coming back to me because I'm not gonna let you come back to me. Cause I was your second choice. Like, I don't care, like where in the progression you met me. If I was that great, you would have stopped seeing this other person. For me, I believe that.

[Katie Maloney]

You would not have been an option. You would've been the option. Exactly. Yeah. So that's.

[Anna Kai]

Well, guess what? Four months later. And I made it a practice not to save the numbers of the guys that I wasn't actually in a relationship with. So I didn't say this guy's number. I went on one date with him. I. A text out of the blue, and I have no idea who the hell it is. It's midnight east coast time. And it was just Anna. Literally the text was Anna, exclamation point. And I was like, I have no idea who this is. And so I actually, I found out. And this doesn't always work, but it sometimes does. If they have WhatsApp, if you save an unknown number as just some random name. So I just put whatever Chad in my phone and then you go into WhatsApp and you. You pull them up on WhatsApp. If they have a WhatsApp profile with their picture on it, you'll know who it is. Oh, I know, right? I know. Sneaky, sneaky, sneaky. So that has worked for me a couple times because a couple of the guys I've dated have WhatsApps. And I pulled. This is how little, like, we got to know each other. I pulled up his photo and I still didn't know who it was. For like a beat, I was like, who just texted me? And I was like, oh, my God, that Chad. I was like, wow. I like, this was literally, I mean, again, one date. And I was like, this motherfucker actually thought he could come back to me. And then I didn't respond, of course, because I was like, I have nothing to say to you. I was single at the time. And so it was like, it wasn't like I was with somebody. And like, it was easy for me to say no. I was like, very single and I didn't want to be single. And then he followed up like 10 minutes later, and he was like, sorry for the late text. I was like, oh, now you say it. Because I didn't respond. He's like, I'm in SF right now. I'm on West Coast. You know, let's catch up when I'm back. That's all it said. I was like, we're not friends. There's no catching up. And then he proceeded to text me, I shit you not, every week for the next three months. And the texts got progressively more and more insane. And then he. We met on an app called the League. I don't know if you remember that.

[Katie Maloney]

I've heard of it, but I don't.

[Anna Kai]

It was, like, a big thing in New York, I feel like, back then. And on that app, the matches would expire after 30 days. So after 30 days, you wouldn't be able to talk to somebody anymore. But if you went into your, like, match archive, you could pay to revive the conversation so you could reconnect with them. So he paid to revive. He was like, hey, Anna, sorry I brought you back from the match cemetery. Kind of creepy. I know. I'm like, no, what's been creepy is that you've been messaging me every single week for the last two months without any response. And they were so weird. He was like, can I just get, like, a response? I totally get it if you're not into it. I totally get it. But just let me know. Just let me know, like, can I get a proof of life? Anything. Then he rematched me on the League because he was like, oh, just in case, like, you changed your number and you're not getting my text. Like, I just want to know. And I feel like that is an example of, like, there is the guy that lets you go because he's like, truly, I found somebody, you know, that I like better or I mesh with better. And there's the guy that lets you go but thinks you're still. Still an option. And, like, that's what happened to me. So that my one experience with a man being honest and, like, not ghosting me was actually horrible.

[Katie Maloney]

Good.

[Anna Kai]

And I told that story on social media a while ago. And it's funny because people will say, like, well, like, you're such an asshole. Why didn't you respond? Like, he was so gracious in not ghosting you and being upfront with you. I was like, no, no, no. Actually, if you read the fine print, he was not gracious because he was doing me a favor. He was being gracious. He sent me that initial text saying, I'm going to go with somebody else because I want to keep you as an option in case it doesn't work out. And so that's not him being gracious. That's him Looking out for him. I was like, this is insane. Like, you don't owe anybody an explanation. It wasn't ghosting. The conversation had ended four months ago.

[Katie Maloney]

Yeah. You made your decision.

[Anna Kai]

Right. It's like, it's wild.

[Katie Maloney]

Yeah. And no one should be able to. And listen, I've been a real dumb bitch in the past, but when someone is telling you, basically, I'm going to put you on ice.

[Anna Kai]

Yeah.

[Katie Maloney]

On the back burner or whatever you want to call it in case things don't work out, like, as if they get to make that choice and you don't have any agency in it, like, it's kind of wild to me. I mean, the audacity.

[Anna Kai]

The audacity. I know. The audacity isn't that crazy.

[Katie Maloney]

I mean, I just, I. I've never been the person that, like, blocks or does that kind of thing. I don't know. I feel, like, weird about it, but I've had to do that recently just because, you know, sometimes it's not necessarily that the guy's like, an asshole. Like, they're usually really nice guys, but.

[Anna Kai]

They just don't get it.

[Katie Maloney]

They're just don't get it. Well, but they're also kind of like, you want to just keep dragging me along when I've made it pretty clear what I think and what I feel. And you want to kind of match that energy but not really do anything about it. So, you know what? Rather than me just being in some entertainment in your phone when you feel like it, when it's convenient to you, because I'm never going to be convenient for anybody. I'm just going to remove the access.

[Anna Kai]

Right. I love that. So not everyone deserves access.

[Katie Maloney]

No. And as much as, like, I don't necessarily think they're bad guys, but it's just like, I don't know what's going on with them in their life, but it's not.

[Anna Kai]

You don't need that chaos in your life.

[Katie Maloney]

No.

[Anna Kai]

Yeah. I mean, you dealt with it and you kind of came out on the other side. So you don't need to reinvite that chaos in the form of another man into your life.

[Katie Maloney]

Oh, God, no. Sounds awful.

[Anna Kai]

You know, I think it's super brave of you that you shared your abortion story because, you know, regardless of which side of the, you know, political argument you land on, I think everybody can agree that it takes a lot to even share that because of how divided our country is right now. And, you know, you said a huge part of the reason you and Tom decided not to Keep the baby is because you were too young and ill equipped to handle being a mom. I mean, do you feel like you're in a better position now to be one? I mean, I know you're not with anybody, but, like, what's your stance on like, motherhood and like, like, what are your feelings?

[Katie Maloney]

It's kind of the. Kind of changed a bit. You know, when you're with somebody and you're kind of building up future, it's a little easier to envision, like family and all that. But then when you're kind of out of it, it's not because you're just alone. But I just start to think, like, I'm looking at the chaos in the world around me and just wondering, like, do I really want to bring more life into it? Right. It's kind of a mess. So there's that aspect of, of considering family. But I just. I'm 38. I'm so, so single. I've not even met anyone. And I'm not somebody that, like, I really desperately wanted to be a mother. I wanted to build a family with somebody. But I feel like maybe that ship has sailed and I really like my life and that would completely change things and not, you know.

[Anna Kai]

So you're not going to go freeze your eggs and become a single mom and just get a sperm donor? No.

[Katie Maloney]

And. And I know people that do that, and I think that's one. I think that is so wonderful that women have that choice. They're able to do that. They can, you know, be independent woman and raise a kid.

[Anna Kai]

Single moms by choice.

[Katie Maloney]

Exactly. But for me, I just am like, no, I. I think I just in redesigning my life, it hasn't really included. I mean, again, I don't want to. I hate to say, like, never.

[Anna Kai]

Yeah. But I think, well, even if one day you can't have your own biological children, I mean, if you really, you could adopt. Adopt. I mean, there's a lot.

[Katie Maloney]

Yeah. And that's. And I would be open to that if that. If that was what was really important to somebody else. Because it's not just about me wanting to be a mom. It's about, like wanting to build that with someone else.

[Anna Kai]

Would you date or end up with a guy who had kids from a priority marriage or relationship?

[Katie Maloney]

Yeah, that has come up in meeting people for sure. And I think it's very dependent on the person, what their relationship is like with their ex. What, you know, I think it varies. So it's definitely like a no. But I mean, I don't Know, there's some instances where I'm just like, this feels weird, right?

[Anna Kai]

Like, I don't know if I'm signing. I don't know if I want to sign up. To be a stepmom to your kids?

[Katie Maloney]

Well, it's not even that. It just seems that, like, maybe them and their ex don't have the best relationship. And it's like, I don't. I don't really want to be drug into any of that. I don't want to have to, like, if, like, if you can barely get along with your ex, I don't think I'm going to. I don't like a lot of people in the world and I don't want to have to feel like I have to fake it with someone just because they're like this important person in your life because you have a kid with them and you're trying. You know, it's just. It can be really messy.

[Anna Kai]

Right.

[Katie Maloney]

So it just really depends on, like, what's. What their child's mother's like, what their relationship is like, what the. You know, there's a lot of things. I'll take it case by case. Right, right.

[Anna Kai]

You'll see. It's a case by case. Yeah. Decision. That's smart. Well, you know, part of the reason you said you didn't want to be a mom was because you were in a really bad place mentally, like, after your accident. And it's crazy. You fell through a skylight.

[Katie Maloney]

Yeah.

[Anna Kai]

In New York or. No, in la. In la. You fell through a skylight in LA and you broke your jaw, collarbone, and you suffered a traumatic brain injury. So, like, you kind of. You came out very scathed. But then you talk about how, like, November 9, 2009 is your rebirth day because of how much, you know, recovering, you know, both physically and mentally from that accident taught you. I mean, what was the best thing to come out of that accident?

[Katie Maloney]

I mean, gosh. I mean, just being able to celebrate being alive and life in itself. I think. You know, I was also really, as a young adult, I wasn't like a child, but, like, being 24 when it happened and faced with mortality, it like, really shifts how you look at things and how you handle things. And that's when I made the change of, like, wanting to, you know, go into music perhaps, because I was just like, wow, life, it could be so uncertain. And I'm over here just, like, going on auditions and, like, not getting work because of some subjective whatever, or not enough.

[Anna Kai]

You're not this enough.

[Katie Maloney]

Yeah. And I'M just like, that's not the kind of life I want. I want to have a little bit more control over my future and the things that I'm doing and filling my time with and career wise. So that was a nice thing to come out of it. Just being kind of having a new lease on life and a new perspective on things. For sure. I mean, it was a. It was a lot of like, emotional mental recovery too, that impacted my relationships, friendships, everything. So that was probably the worst thing to come out of it.

[Anna Kai]

It impacted your friendships?

[Katie Maloney]

Well, yeah, because I, as a result of having brain injury, it just, it alters your personality. I, like, had a hard time regulating emotions and it was very short fused and that was not anything I was familiar with. I mean, I was like. Could always be like a little like, sassy when I'm growing up, but like, no, this was like on another level. And so. So I definitely had a hard time relating to people in the same way because I just was like, how do you not get this? How do you not understand this? I just felt like I was frustrated all the time.

[Anna Kai]

Right.

[Katie Maloney]

So, yeah, that definitely impacted my friendships and especially in relationships too, because when you're not feeling. You're like, you're emotionally supported, it's. It's terrible. Right? It's a terrible place to be, especially for somebody that, like, has a hard time understanding. Understanding what they're feeling sometimes.

[Anna Kai]

How long did it take you to recover from that? I don't mean just physically, like, I just mean, like, was there a moment or like a year or a week where you were like, oh, I'm. I'm through it. I'm on the other side of this mentally?

[Katie Maloney]

No, not really. It's a kind of. You just get to a point where you have to accept that this is how things are and just try to work on whether it's like therapy or your own sort of practices of just learning how to navigate through life again, just how you operate. That was. Yeah, so it was, it never was like a moment where like, okay, I'm through it, right? Because I would have good days. And then I go through months of just like, not great and like mental.

[Anna Kai]

Health and depression and all that. So you went to therapy more recently?

[Katie Maloney]

In the last, like, few years, post sick divorce, I got into, like, doing like, shadow work. And so I feel like. I feel like I'm in the best place I've ever been personally. Just as well, actually.

[Anna Kai]

One of my. So one of my friends was like, oh, you know, you're interviewing Katie can you ask her this? And I thought it was such a. She was like, I feel like, you know, post divorce life has provided so much, like focus for you and your next steps. Like, you just seem like she was like, oh, she seems like she's living her best life. Like, how has the divorce taught you that? I mean, this is. The divorce is almost like your second rebirth day, you know?

[Katie Maloney]

Yeah. Having new lease on life in that sense too has been really nice because like I said, I really chose myself and my happiness, whatever that looked like, whether I was like, alone, which I'm never going to be, like, alone or met somebody new. Like, I was just, I was open to it all, but really just wanted to focus on myself and continue because I. I'd only got to that point of deciding or, you know, what I needed to do because I had been working on myself and my relationship with myself, my body, my mental health, everything like that. So I wanted to keep moving on that. And sometimes when you start making yourself available to other people, emotionally, mentally, physically, like, that can derail the work that you're trying to do. So that just became my primary focus of just like woke up every day, like, how do I want to spend today? On just one day at a time time. And then obviously having like, goals to like, focus on and work towards, like with the sandwich shop and I don't know, just like being more physically active and like, just with whatever things I knew made me feel good. I just had to focus on that because I didn't have anyone else I need to show up for, call, check in on, be accountable for at all.

[Anna Kai]

You didn't have to take care of anybody but yourself. Well, and I think what's great about your life now is people are always asking me, like, how do I be happy before I meet the guy? Right. Cause that's still. That's what we were taught, at least growing up. It's like, you know, your life begins when Prince Charming kisses you and all that stuff. The Disney princesses, I mean, the OG Disney princesses fucked us all over, I think. Not the new ones that are like feminist and everything. But you are very much single, but you are not alone. And you seem so content and beyond that, fulfilled with your group of friends. And so I think that's the important part about being a woman is realizing that you can foster a community and a family without a man.

[Katie Maloney]

Yeah, I think some people also, when it comes to identity too, like, who are you? What do you like? What do you like to do? What is like, what makes you happy and what's, what's fun in your life, your hobbies, your interests, all those things. I think really discovering those things about yourself can make you feel so whole and so fulfilled that, like, you're not trying to, like, look for it in anybody else. Because I think when you're kind of. Well, I see a lot of women and women I know that have gone from one serious long term relationship to the next, and they don't spend any time alone. And I'm just like, who are you? You become a slightly different version of yourself depending on or of themselves, depending on who they were dating. But I don't think they ever spent time fully alone where they're like, who the hell am I?

[Anna Kai]

But I think that's so much harder to be alone and try to figure out who you are, because then all of a sudden you have to make your own decisions. And I think I know, and I speak from experience. In my twenties, I spent so much time jumping around from relationship to relationship because I didn't want to get to know myself because the voices were not great. And I think I realized when I met my husband and the relationship was so not dramatic and it was just easy. And everyone's like, oh, I thought my life would be perfect when I met the one, right? The guy. And I actually, for the first time, could hear my. I went fucking nuts. I mean, it was the first time I realized, like, a year and a half after I met my husband, I was diagnosed with obsessive compulsive disorder. Not in the way that people like, oh, I'm so OCD about clean. Like, true, pure ocd. I had more mental health shit than I ever did because I realized I'd spent so much time focusing on trying to fix broken relationships as a way to distract myself from trying to fix myself. And so now all of a sudden, I was with, like, a guy that didn't need fixing. I mean, he wasn't perfect, but he was like, I'm going to take care of my own shit. You got to focus on you. And so I was really lucky to find that in my marriage. But if you're jumping around from guy to guy because you don't want to fix yourself, like, you got to take a look at that.

[Katie Maloney]

Oh, 100%, I think, also just taking a look at the people around you and do these people motivate me and inspire me? Like, what is the value of the people around you? That's kind of a big shift that I made too. Not that I didn't have like, friends always. But, like, my social network was very entangled with Tom's.

[Anna Kai]

Right.

[Katie Maloney]

And so I just, like, started connecting with old friends, friends I didn't get to spend a lot of time with just because they were, like, a little too far out of my social circle, but also, like, around, like, women who were, like, were really making things happen for themselves and really powerful individuals. And I was like, that's the kind of energy I want to be around because it's going to rub off the osmosis. I just. It has to just, like, see, like, visual diets are so, so important as well and can really be detrimental if you're constantly consuming things that aren't good for your mental health. Like, so just shifting all of that. I think it's only scary for a little while, but, like, the unknown is.

[Anna Kai]

Always scary until you get to know it and then it's not the unknown and.

[Katie Maloney]

No, but it's. It's. Even though it's unpredictable.

[Anna Kai]

Right.

[Katie Maloney]

It's actually really. It's a huge gift. Like, I consider. Gave myself a gift. Like, I thought I was losing my house, losing my marriage, losing my husband, losing my future, but I was like, I just gave myself the rest of my life. So that's really cool.

[Anna Kai]

That's beautiful. And that's the perfect way to end this. Oh, my gosh. Thank you so much, Katie. This was so inspiring.

[Katie Maloney]

Thank you.

[Anna Kai]

Really appreciate you being here today.

[Katie Maloney]

Well, thank you for having me. I love watching your videos and content because I'm just like, yes, she gets it. She gets all the good advice and, like, again, the things that we all have, like, told ourselves and thought at one point, but just.

[Anna Kai]

Sometimes you just need it from a random stranger on the Internet like me. Right.

[Katie Maloney]

I love it. That's part of my visual diet.

[Anna Kai]

Thank you. I'm really happy to be part of your visual diet. Don't cut that part of the diet out.

[Katie Maloney]

No, no, no, no.

[Anna Kai]

Thanks again. All right, thank you.

[Katie Maloney]

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