← Brutally Anna
Brutally Anna
Why you should get a prenup and how to be the main character feat. Vivian Tu aka YourRichBFF
01:18:57
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- [00:01]
A
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- [00:22]
B
She's not just your BFF, she's your rich BFF teaching you everything that you didn't learn about money in school. My guest today, Vivian Tu, is the former Wal Wall street trader turned personal finance expert, a New York Times best selling author, and is one of the leading voices championing women to not only advocate for themselves in the workforce, but also advocate for each other. Vivian's simple and humorous approach to personal finance has garnered her over 6 million followers across Instagram, TikTok and YouTube and she is here today to talk to us bitties about money and how it affects our relationships.
- [00:56]
A
Please continue to say more complimentary things about me.
- [00:59]
B
I love that, but it's all true. And your resume is very impressive and thanks so much for being here. I am so excited to ask you about all the things that you normally do talk about already on your platforms, but also about your relationships and your opinion on how money affects relationships. So for those that are listening that aren't familiar with your content, can you tell me a little bit about yourself and why you decided to leave your six figure job at BuzzFeed to pursue a career in social media?
- [01:24]
A
Yeah, I mean I didn't have any of these dreams right? Like I am the only daughter to Chinese immigrant parents. They wanted me to become doctor, lawyer, engineer. That wasn't happening for me just based on what my skill set was and like my strengths in school. But I was always pretty sharp. I was the valedictorian in my high school, I try to work that into every interview by the way. And ended up at the University of Chicago. It's a very highly rated economic school and that means Wall street firms typically come and recruit on campus. And so I ended up getting a job as a trader at JP Morgan. I was there for two and a half years. I ended up leaving going to the greener pastures of tech and media because I wanted to wear ripped jeans and make more money. And honestly I never thought about working for myself because for me that felt like a very risky thing. And I don't want to say I was risk averse but like I had a good thing going and I knew it but I ended up starting to put content on the Internet because my colleagues were always the ones asking me about, what do I invest in my 401k. Like, which health insurance plan did you pick? Are company stock options worth anything? Check. Just so Everybody's aware, the BuzzFeed stock options were not, in fact, worth anything. But, yeah, you know, like, I just started doing it for my friends. I didn't think it would take off, but when it did, I quit my job after a year and three months, and it's the best decision I've ever made.
- [02:48]
B
That's amazing. So you described the absolute overt racism you experienced during your time on Wall Street. So I know you said you wanted to wear ripped jeans and everything, but I think part of the issue with your first job was the racism. And I can't believe this was actually said to you, but I found in an interview you did with Forbes that your superior said that, you know, the final straw for you was that you went into the office with a cardigan on, and he looked at you and he touched his hands together, bowed, and said, is that a kimono?
- [03:17]
A
Yeah.
- [03:18]
B
That's insane.
- [03:20]
A
Yeah.
- [03:21]
B
So what would you say to women, and particularly minority women in corporations where they feel like they're never going to get the same opportunities as the men and particularly white men around them because of who they are? You quit, right?
- [03:33]
A
Yeah.
- [03:34]
B
And I. I get dms like this, you know, probably a little bit misguided because I never really worked in a corporate environment where they're like, should I leave or should I stay and try to work it out? What would your advice be to those women?
- [03:46]
A
I think it really depends on who your direct manager is and who's exactly above you in the food chain. When I first started, my. My first manager was actually an Asian woman. And I was so lucky because she took me under her wing, helped me cut my teeth, taught me everything I knew. And even the guy above her, who was a white man, respected me and understood that I was smart, that I was sharp and I was hardworking. And that guy's boss, another white man, recognized that I was smart and hardworking and sharp. And I don't think you necessarily need to identify with every single person above you. But if you have a manager who is truly a bad manager, whether they are not recognizing your talent, they are overtly racist or misogynistic, or they don't treat you with respect, I hate to be the one to tell you this. It's not getting better. You need to find a new manager. You either need to move around laterally in the company, which I thought about. I had a couple conversations with mentors from other desks, from other teams, or you got to leave, you got to go to a competitor firm, you got to go somewhere else, you got to do something. Because one of the worst but best pieces of advice that my mentor gave me, she's an Asian woman. She told me, she was like, you know, I hate to be the one to tell you this, but you have to work twice as hard to get half as much. And you need to be beyond reproach. Because in a trading seat, oftentimes each week, you know, starting Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursday, you're going out and getting drinks with clients. And some of those clients, that's their one week night off away from their family and their kids, and they're trying to go hard. And so you could be out until the wee hours of the morning. But in a trading seat, I needed to be back in my seat at like 5:45 in the morning. And so my boss told me, she goes, I don't care what time you leave the party, but you always tell everyone you left just a touch before midnight. And I'm like, okay, why am I lying about when I left? And she said, because if you show up to work and you're not at 100%, if you're hungover, if you mess up a trade, they are going to use any reason to paint you as unprofessional as less than. And that was true. The boys could get away with coming in and sucking down a Pedialyte, but I had to be like, my hair had to be quaffed. Like I had to look nice and I couldn't look like I was still drunk from the night before. And I just think that like in an environment where your manager isn't going to real talk with you the way that my first one did, and you have a manager like I did when I left, you're not getting ahead, you're not going to make more money, you're not getting that promotion, you're not getting that raise, you're not going to be recognized. And it'll be so much easier for you to do all of those things if you have one that will advocate for you.
- [06:36]
B
What do you think is the difference between people who just stick it out because it's the devil they know versus the people who actually work up the courage to quit? Because I know so many people, and not necessarily women that don't leave jobs that they don't like because they don't hate their lives enough. It's like, we don't like our situation, but the alternative is scary and it's worse. So what is your advice to those people who really need to quit but can't quit?
- [07:04]
A
I would say one think about the time that you're losing. I know people make the comment of like, oh, but like, I'm. I'm too old now to go back to medical school, or I'm too old to go back to law school, or, you know, I've already done this for 10 years. Okay? Like, you're worried about law school taking three more years. In three years, it's gonna be three years later. You're either gonna have a law degree and have a new job that you like, or you're still gonna be in your shitty job that you hate. And now you're three years older, probably have suffered for three more years. Like, it's miserable. Like, just do it scared. But also, my big financial tip is build yourself a parachute. And I started doing that as soon as I started that job. And I started realizing that it wasn't going to be happily ever after. When I realized that my new manager, after my first manager was a racist, was a misogynist, a chauvinistic pig, honestly, I started to make a plan. I was like, how the hell do I get out of here? But also, how do I make sure that I have a beefier than usual emergency fund so that if I don't find what I need to find in X amount of time, I can probably still quit and keep myself afloat for long enough so that I can find the right job and not just the right now job. So be practical, but also just do it scared.
- [08:28]
B
Did you leave your current your job at JP Morgan to go to Buzzfeed, or did you quit and not have a job? Because I know people say, like, never quit a job and then look for a job. Always have a job while you're looking.
- [08:41]
A
The day that he made that kimono comment to me, I walked over to my first manager, my mentor's desk, and I said, I'm quitting today. And she said, don't you dare. I know you don't have shit lined up, right? And I was like, fine. I was like, fine, you're right. And so she was like, wait for after the close and we'll talk after the close being the close of the market. So 4pm, right?
- [09:01]
B
Okay.
- [09:02]
A
So we ended up going and getting dinner that night, and I told her what had happened. And I'm sure, like, she must have Been devastated to hear that as like an Asian woman. An Asian woman, but also the person who had invested so much time and energy and frankly, money into me. Like she had bought me lunch for a year and a half. She had taught me how to trade her stocks, she had taught me how to do all of these things. And she was like, well, I don't want you to be unhappy. And I understand that this is like, not something that we can fix. I have a girlfriend who also started on Wall street and is now in the tech and media game. Like, would you be interested in having a conversation? And I was like, I'd be interested in having a conversation with a brick wall. I don't care who it is. Gimme. And I ended up chatting with her, chatting with hr, going through a series of interviews, and that woman ended up becoming my first boss at BuzzFeed.
- [09:54]
B
That's awesome.
- [09:55]
A
Yeah. So I worked for two best friends. Isn't that so funny?
- [09:57]
B
That is awesome. And that's funny. But you know, it's. And your mentor at JPMorgan, is she still your mentor now? Because they know you have a mentor.
- [10:04]
A
Okay, she's still my mentor now. She's no longer at JP Morgan, she's at another firm. But she's had such incredible success in her own career and like, I still look up to her to this day.
- [10:13]
B
That's awesome. So you just got married. Congratulations.
- [10:17]
A
Thank you.
- [10:18]
B
But before you met your now husband Greg, you dated around in New York. And I would love to know what your experience dating as a single 20 something, very motivated Asian American woman was.
- [10:33]
A
It was horrible. So I had a guy friend from college and I was getting like a coffee or tea with him and, and we were platonic friends. But I was telling him, I was like, these are the attributes I'm looking for in a partner. And he was like, vivi, I'm gonna hold your hand while I say this. This man doesn't exist. Cause I was like, I want someone who's just as motivated as me. Make like, I don't need them to be like a sugar daddy, but they need to make as much money as I do so I don't have to limit what my lifestyle looks like. They have to be kind, they have to be funny, they have to be smart. I list all of these things which I did not personally think were going to be that hard to hit because they weren't like non changeable factors. Right? Like, I wasn't like, oh, I need someone who's this tall or this weight, has this eye color. Does this for work. I was like, I just need some of these things that, like, are relatively controllable. Like, I want you to be kind. I want you to be funny. I want you to be generous. I want all of these things kind.
- [11:28]
B
Of the bare minimum.
- [11:29]
A
Just like truly, like the bottom of the barrel.
- [11:31]
B
I mean, the bar is in hell, but yes.
- [11:34]
A
And for a man, my guy friend, to tell me he was like, that guy doesn't exist. I'm like, are you not embarrassed of your kind if this man does not exist?
- [11:43]
B
Right?
- [11:44]
A
And I am not even gonna lie to you. I kissed a lot of frogs.
- [11:48]
B
Like, were you on the apps?
- [11:50]
A
I was on the apps. And they were rancid then and they're rancid now. I went on a lot of really bad dates. I will say. I went on a couple good dates as well. Or, like, had like, short term relationships, a couple months with guys who were genuinely, to this day, I think of them and I'm like, you are a good man. You will make someone incredibly happy one day. You deserve to find love. I feel nothing, no ill will towards you. You are a good person. But you and I are not compatible.
- [12:21]
B
Right?
- [12:22]
A
And I think the ultimate thing was for me. I wanted someone who was going to be kind and compassionate and all of those soft things, but I also wanted them to challenge me. And I did end up dating a lot of guys who were all of those good quality traits, but they would just, like, roll over and agree with whatever I was saying. And for me, that was not intellectually stimulating, which might just be another personal shortcoming of, like, my desires as, like, a person. But I wanted someone to challenge me. I wanted someone to, like, actually, like, be able to go tete a tete with me. And it wasn't until I met Boo that, you know, I found that.
- [13:00]
B
I think I said this to you when we were having a conversation the other night, that you are not hardwired to live an easy life. Cause you were like, oh, I was.
- [13:08]
A
So mad when you said that to me.
- [13:10]
B
But it's true because you told me when we first met, you were like, I wanna retire at 40. Here's my fuck you number. I think I can get there. And I just. I talked to Dave about it. I was like, she's gonna hit that fuck you number and she's gonna double it. There's no way she's gonna work herself to the grave. You're not hardwired to live an easy life. Thank you so much. And I'm gonna be so right. Talk to me, when you're 40, right.
- [13:32]
A
You're gonna be right. And I don't like that you are. And you know that. I think like, for me it's, it's never been about choosing the easiest thing. Cause like, what's the joy in having the easiest thing?
- [13:43]
B
Right?
- [13:43]
A
Like, you didn't earn it. You didn't, you didn't like achieve something.
- [13:49]
B
Because for me it's like, okay, I could have become a Connecticut housewife easily, easily four years ago, could have just been like, my husband does really well. It would be very socially acceptable for me to stop working and have a child now. And people would understand that. And I just felt dead inside.
- [14:09]
A
Yeah.
- [14:10]
B
So I created a WordPress. But it's like, you know, I think that's the thing is that some people have that and some people don't. And I think genetically we are a product of our parents.
- [14:22]
A
Yes.
- [14:22]
B
And because we are the daughters of Chinese immigrants who obviously did not have it in them to choose the easy life.
- [14:28]
A
They couldn't.
- [14:29]
B
They couldn't. Right. But a lot of people stayed in China.
- [14:32]
A
Yeah.
- [14:32]
B
So those, you know, they always like to remind me, and I'm sure your parents remind you that, you know, this stereotype of all Asians being so smart and educated here is just because those.
- [14:41]
A
Are the ones who made it.
- [14:44]
B
My dad's like, there's plenty of dumb people in China.
- [14:46]
A
Yeah.
- [14:46]
B
They're just not here. Right.
- [14:48]
A
And I also find that to be a very interesting comment you're making because in the dating world, both your husband and mine work in financial services. And I feel like in the New York City dating pool, the high achieving, high earning men who work these finance, consulting, law, medicine, what, all these jobs, they either go one of two ways. They pick a partner who is absolutely terrifying, like you and me, like someone who is the, excuse me, our fries are not at the table yet. Or they pick someone who is very much like a secondary character in the, in the story.
- [15:33]
B
A supporting role to their own supporting role. Yes.
- [15:35]
A
And that is no shade on relationships that work that way. I'll be damned if someone else is writing the story of my life and I'm not the main character. Like this is first person I, I, I, and it took me a while, honestly, because I'm an only child and I'm not even a lie, like quite selfish. It took me a really long time and like seeing my partner treat me a certain way before it became we, we, we, we, we.
- [16:03]
B
Right. Did men ever ask you when you were dating in New York City if what Kind of race you mostly dated? Because this was a weird question I got, and I always thought it was so weird that men would ask me, oh, do you mostly date white guys or Asian guys? And here's my theory on why people ask you that and why I think it's so offensive. I think it's so reductive because you would never ask a white woman what type of race she typically dates. But for some reason, men thought it was okay to ask me very casually, too. It's like, oh, do you typically date white guys or Asian guys? I'm like, what if I just said, I typically date, like, Hispanic dudes? Like, that's got to be, like, the dichotomy. Like, white and Asian.
- [16:44]
A
Yeah.
- [16:45]
B
But I think it's very reductive because they're trying to size you up before they get to know you. They want to know if they're the norm or they're the anomaly.
- [16:56]
A
Yeah.
- [16:56]
B
And therefore, if they're the norm, they're like, oh, I get it. She's like, you know, she's like, American, whatever. Or if they're the anomaly, they're like, is she going to be too Asian for me?
- [17:04]
A
Yeah.
- [17:04]
B
And I always thought it was really reductive because, again, if you're a white woman and let's say you typically don't date white guys, nobody would be like, oh, my God. You know, you like Asian men or you like black dudes. That's some indicator of who you are as a person.
- [17:16]
A
I never got asked that question, But I had so many men volunteer that they're like, I primarily date Asian women. And as soon as I would receive that information, an ick would take over my entire body, and I would fake food poisoning or be like, my period just started. I gotta go. Sorry, bro. One time I actually had my roommate call. I, like, text her on the side and then deleted the text. I had her call and pretend to be locked in the bathroom and that the doorknob came off. I was like, I need to be, like, medevaced out of this date.
- [17:50]
B
Because he said that.
- [17:52]
A
Yeah. Cause I was like, like, was that supposed to be a compliment? I know that gives me the ick because now I feel like I'm just another notch on your bed post or, like, fulfilling a certain weird, like, kitschy, like, fantasy for you. And it's, like, icky. It's very icky. Because I think in my dating history, I have dated people. Dated is a loose word. Let's be real generous word. Let's say I have been with Pretty much every single race under the sun. And that has never bothered me. I will say that pop culture stereotypes around certain races of women and certain races of men are really deeply harmful. Because I think many Asian men who had interest in me thought I was going to be very, very demure, Very, very secondary to their lead. And then you get someone who's 5, 7 and brash and loud and obnoxious and big and a big, big personality. And like, I think they don't know what to do with that. And so I would say, like, many Asian men wrote me off. I would say I have not had a problem dating people outside of my race. But there has always been a thought in the back of my mind of like, would it be easier if I had an Asian partner? Or in specifically, a Mandarin speaking partner.
- [19:19]
B
Right.
- [19:20]
A
Because would it be easier to have, like, a familial relationship so that they could speak with my parents?
- [19:26]
B
Right. I think it's so interesting that you bring up the Asian men that wrote you off. Cause that's exactly what I felt in that.
- [19:34]
A
Yeah, it's. Cause you're mean.
- [19:35]
B
I know. And I'm loud.
- [19:37]
A
That's why we're friends.
- [19:38]
B
And I know. And I'm loud and I'm opinionated. And I went to nyu. So I started dating guys in the city when I was like, 18, 19, and I had a lot of Asian American girlfriends who did maybe fall into a more traditional stereotype. And they were more demure and they were less opinionated, um, and probably happier than me, let's be honest. But I always remember thinking, like, these men don't find me attractive. Like, when we would go out, because there are certain bars in the city, like, we would go to K Town, and there are certain bars that are very Asian American heavy, and nobody would ever want to talk to me. And it was before I even said anything. It's like almost the energy you give off. Like, I think I'm just aggressive looking. Like, we are.
- [20:24]
A
What do you mean?
- [20:25]
B
I know. I think, like, I just give off. Know that. I know, but it's like, it would. I didn't know it at the time.
- [20:31]
A
Yeah, I definitely didn't know it at the time.
- [20:33]
B
I didn't really understand. I just thought it was because I was dark and my friends were paler. And, you know, as an Asian American woman, you're, like, taught, like, oh, if you're dark, you're.
- [20:41]
A
Yeah, you're tan looking.
- [20:43]
B
But now I always think, like, am I attracted to non Asian men? Because that's what was attracted to me. To me.
- [20:52]
A
Yes.
- [20:53]
B
And is that just kind of how it works? We love who loves us back?
- [20:57]
A
Yeah.
- [20:58]
B
You know, I don't know. I never test that theory. I dated pretty seriously two Asian men when I was younger. And to answer your question, like, I do think it would be easier to marry somebody from your culture. 100%. Like, I actually dated a Shanghainese man for a while. My parents are Shanghainese, as are yours.
- [21:17]
A
I know, but just so everybody knows, she can't speak Shanghainese. It's so embarrassing.
- [21:22]
B
But you can't speak Mandarin.
- [21:23]
A
Yeah, I know. Which is ultimately very humiliating because that's the one that's really practical for use I speak.
- [21:28]
B
You know, my parents taught me how to speak Mandarin, and they did not teach me how to speak Shanghainese, the dialect, but I understand it completely because they spoke it to each other. To each other. And so. But the guy I dated in college was Shanghainese, and he.
- [21:41]
A
How stoked were your parents when you thought about that?
- [21:43]
B
Oh, and guess what? He was. I mean, we were in college, so it was so young, but he was an intern at Deutsche bank at the time and had Chris's producer lab. He was an intern at Deutsche Bank, Rachel. And he was. He had a job lined up because it's sort of senior year, and he was tall.
- [22:01]
A
He was your mom and dad, like, chef's kiss.
- [22:03]
B
Oh. When I broke up with him, my mom yelled at me. She was like, how dare you?
- [22:08]
A
Yeah.
- [22:08]
B
And then my dad was like, pull it in, Mary. This is our daughter. Yeah, he's not your son. But, you know. And then she was like, oh, I'm sorry. And I think, look, I don't fault them for that, because all our parents want for us at the end of the day is a stable and happy life, right? And they thought that that was going to bring me happiness. And I was like, I'm gonna kill myself if, you know, I live this life, you know, because it was very much similar. He was like. I think he thought he was being kind. And he was. He was like, you don't have to work, like, as soon as you graduate college. Like, I got us. And I mean, I was like, I love that, but I'm 22, graduating from NYU. My parents came here. I'm the only daughter, so that I could become your wife.
- [22:46]
A
Like, I just.
- [22:47]
B
I was like, I need to do more with my life. Right? But in terms of the families, 100%, I think it would have been easier to marry a guy who's Chinese because he could speak to my parents in Their native tongue.
- [23:01]
A
Yes.
- [23:02]
B
And so much of. I always think, like, my parents have totally different personalities. When they're around Chinese people versus around American people. They are so social, so smooth in their native tongue. And then you throw them into a situation with American people and they're not. They speak fluent English. They're very. But they just become much more reserved because it's just not their native tongue.
- [23:26]
A
Yeah.
- [23:26]
B
And I think had my husband and I not lived with my parents for four months during the height of the pandemic, he would have never gotten to know them in the intimate way that he knows them now. That was a blessing for us because we really lived full time with them and they're so chill, and it was great. And he was like, I really feel like I got to know and understand your parents on a very deep level, and it's great. But the cultural, like, there is a huge cultural divide between Asian culture and Western culture. And that's something we've had to bridge because we have great relationships with each other's families. But they're very different. And so it's for me having to readjust the fact that just because my husband's parents do something different than my parents, that doesn't make it bad. It's just what they do and what they're used to. And conversely, they're probably like, what are your parents?
- [24:14]
A
You know, it's like my first Thanksgiving that I brought Boo home. My mom made her first turkey because normally we would have duck and because. Because there was only three of us, so it's not like we're gonna eat a whole ass turkey.
- [24:29]
B
Right?
- [24:29]
A
She made turkey for the first time. She didn't really understand the premise of, like, white people turkey, so she made soy sauce turkey with sticky rice stuffing. I thought it was delicious. Honestly, my man's was. So when I tell you, he was so confused, he was like, what is this? What am I looking at? He, like, didn't even know. Like, we must have looked like aliens. But, like, it just makes we, like, look back on that moment and it's like such a cultural. I don't want to say, like, awakening, but, like, his eyes were wide open then of, like, you did grow up different than us. And like, when your family had, like, taco night, right? My family had, like, tofu and beans. Right. And like, that, like, I, like, look forward to eating tofu and bean night.
- [25:20]
B
Right?
- [25:20]
A
And, like, I had to explain that to him.
- [25:23]
B
The tofu thing is very much an acquired taste. Like, Dave eats a lot of Chinese food that I actually didn't think he would like. But he cannot get down with tofu. And I love to, like, a good mop with tofu. So good. And it's so comforting too.
- [25:34]
A
Like, the toaster texture is good. I guess the flavor's good. It's all good.
- [25:38]
B
Yeah. And it's very filling, but it's actually low calorie. Great protein. Great vegan source of protein.
- [25:42]
A
Do you feel like now as an adult, whenever you are down, bad, you're sick, you're sad, whatever, you just revert and want Chinese food 100%. Growing up, I literally never, ever wanted to bring Chinese food to school because people would tell me my lunch smelled weird. But now I am so excited. And, like, we do this dance every night right before we go and get our dinner. He's like, so, what are you feeling? And I'm like, oh, I don't know. Whatever you want. And boo will be like, so, like, Italian. I'm like, eh? And he's like, well, what about, like, you know, Mediterranean? I'm like. And he was like, do you want Asian? I'm like, yes, yes, Asian. Anything you want. Sushi, Thai, like, pho, Like Chinese. I'm in.
- [26:32]
B
Yeah.
- [26:32]
A
And he's like, I don't know why we do this.
- [26:34]
B
I know when we just end up getting Asian food.
- [26:36]
A
Correct.
- [26:36]
B
You also live in a city where you have readily accessible, good Asian food. I live in Connecticut. It's tough out there. I gotta say, that was an adjustment.
- [26:48]
A
Fighting for your life.
- [26:49]
B
I am fighting for my life. So that's why anytime I come in and I come into the city and get dinner with you, I'm like, let's do Asian food.
- [26:54]
A
Which, by the way, so everyone knows Anna and I are going to sushi after this. And I'm really excited.
- [26:58]
B
It's so. And also, Vivian got us a deal. How much is the omakase?
- [27:03]
A
I think it's like 70 or 65 bucks a person, which is a value.
- [27:06]
B
That is value in New York City. That's crazy. When she found that, I was like, this is amazing. Hopefully we don't get food poisoning from it. No, but it'll be great. I'm excited. But, yeah, I always want Asian food. I think Asian food is better than Western food. It's not that I don't like my cheeseburgers and my pizzas and my fries. It's just that, like, when I'm sick, especially, like, I want a hot and sour soup, or I want an egg drop soup or $1.
- [27:29]
A
Also, when I eat it, my Stomach doesn't hurt because I'm definitely allergic to lactose and I just don't take it seriously.
- [27:34]
B
So Asian food, like, there's no dairy.
- [27:37]
A
Except for sometimes with Korean, like rice dishes where they'll put some cheese on. Most Asian cuisines do not mess around with dairy like that. So I can like, really, really just get whatever I want.
- [27:48]
B
Yeah. And it's only the Korean dishes that mess around with the cheese and the corn, which I actually do like. But it's very rare.
- [27:53]
A
Yes.
- [27:54]
B
It's not really in Chinese and you.
- [27:55]
A
Can, like, avoid it.
- [27:56]
B
Exactly. Like it's. It's an option.
- [27:57]
A
Yeah.
- [27:59]
B
Yes. So Asian food all the way. Okay, so who should pay for the first date? Here's the thing. I love quality, but I don't always think you should pay a premium for quality. Because treating myself to that bag or sweater I've been eyeing shouldn't have to come at the cost of my savings goals. And that's where Quince comes in. With Quince, you can treat yourself to everyday luxury at an affordable price. Something everyone needs in their closet, in my opinion. Quince's iconic Mongolian cashmere sweaters, which start at $50. Or if you really want to up the lux factor, check out their Italian leather handbags, washable silk skirts, and European linen sheet sets. Whatever you're looking for, all Quince Items are priced 50 to 80% less than similar brands. They're able to do that by partnering directly with top factories and cutting out the cost of the middleman passing savings onto you. Quince only works with factories that use safe, ethical and responsible manufacturing practices. And of course, they use premium fabrics and finishes for that luxury feel in every piece. So many of my personal wardrobe staples come from Quince, and I can't wait to add some new pieces this winter, like the Mongolian cashmere funnel neck sweater and the Italian leather trapeze crossbody bag. All of my Quince picks are the epitome of quiet luxury and will stand the test of time in terms of sustainability, quality and style. Treat yourself this winter without the luxury price tag. Go to quince.com annakai for 365 day returns plus free shipping on your order. That's Q-U-I-N-C-E.com annakai to get free shipping and 365 day returns. Quince.com annakai renew your health and wellness purpose this year with the Reset on Alo Moves, a curated weekly program of Pilates, strength and step goals to kickstart your fitness journey. It's a 30 day, week by week program. Three days of Pilates, two days of strength, and 8,000 daily steps. Plus bonus nutrition tips from Sakara. Plus, for only $99, you get a year's worth of access to Alo moves on demand. Full studio experience wherever you are. Get moving.
- [30:04]
A
Today@alomoves.com I think whoever asks should pay. I know that's a little different than when I had you on my podcast and we talked about this. Here's my thing. The world is changing. More and more women are becoming breadwinners. I don't think it's a problem if a gal wants to pay on the first date. They want to, like, you know, treat, whatever. Maybe they pick the restaurant. Maybe they are in a very different situation. They're working. This person that they're trying to date is in grad school, whatever. There's a lot of scenarios where it may be different than the norm of just a man taking you out on a date and he pays. That said, I think if it's kind of like a mutual date, like, you know, you've known each other through a friend or whatever, and there isn't somebody who like directly asked, but you've agreed to make plans, it's nice if a man pays for the date. I also think everybody's allowed to have their own opinion because even though I logically and theoretically I'm telling you, whoever asks should pay. I have been on dates where somebody has asked me to split or allowed me to split when I did the fake reach, and I never contacted them again because you know what? Like that date, I'm thinking of a specific date in particular. This guy spent the whole date telling me about how much money he made that past year. And I was a first year analyst, so I was making a base salary of like 80 grand with some bonus. But like, I don't even know if I made six figures that year. And for you to sit there and talk to me about how you almost made a million dollars last year and then you want to split, that you're not a generous man, you're not a giving person. And I don't just mean that with dollars, but like, this is representative of how you will treat me with your time, with your care, with your love, with your compassion. I want to date a generous partner. I want to have a generous partner. And that's why I chose the man.
- [32:01]
B
I did the generosity point. So I've told this story a couple times, but my parents really instilled in me like, it is what the money represents. It's not just about the money itself, because when I was in college, I dated a guy that I was super in love with. I wanted to marry him and all of that. He left me. Let's just put it out there. But I call this the chicken and rice gate. So we were in our senior year of college and we were out at a party and we came back to my apartment late night, and I was hungry, right? And I was like, I want food. What else can we get at 2am? Chicken and rice. The halal carts.
- [32:40]
A
Yeah.
- [32:40]
B
So at the time, chicken and rice was $5, which I have been, wow.
- [32:44]
A
Inflation has been crazy, huh?
- [32:46]
B
I know. So I have, because I've told this story and I was like, it's a five dollar chicken and rice. They're like, where do you find a $5 chicken and rice? I was like, that's the takeaway from the story. Nobody pays attention to the rest of it. They're like, oh my God. But yes, in 2012 and 2013, a standard halal chicken and rice was $5. So there was a. There was a cart right downstairs of my building. And I just said, can you come down with me? To my boyfriend. And he was like, well, I'm not that hungry. I was like, that's fine, you don't have to get one. I want one. But like, can you come with me? It's late at night, It's New York City. And he was like, fine, I'll come with you, but you're paying for it. I had never asked him to pay for it. I'd never asked him for really to do anything because we were in college and back then I was very much more like, oh, we can split things. Like, nobody has any money and we're not going on extravagant dates anyways. I literally just was like, I'm your girlfriend.
- [33:36]
A
It's 2am in the dark. You are likely a larger human being than me. Like, have some sort of defenses.
- [33:43]
B
He didn't want to come with me because he didn't want to feel obligated to pay for it. And that had not been the tone of our relationship up until that point. And I was livid. And at the time I didn't know why. I was so angry. It just like ignited something in me. And I yelled at him. And then I went downstairs alone and I paid for my chicken and rice. And I was like, don't talk to me. And then we talked about it afterwards and I forgave him, of course. Cause no standards and you know, I didn't look at the red flags as red flags. So I really needed him to leave me. But I remember telling my parents that story, and my dad was like, he was trying to be nice about it, right?
- [34:19]
A
Yeah.
- [34:19]
B
He was like, that's a really stupid thing for someone to do who is typically very smart, which I thought was gracious. But then what they later said after this guy dumped me was they were like, it is not so much the fact that we were concerned about the five doll, it's that that is indicative of how he looks at your relationship. And the fact that, let's say it's.
- [34:40]
A
Always tit for tat with this guy.
- [34:41]
B
It is always tit for tat. And also, if you want to do something that comes at the expense of his comfort, then he's not going to do it for you. Because I always think it's like generosity really comes from if you guys agree on everything and always want to do the same things, then there's not really an opportunity for you to be generous with each other. I think true generosity is when it really doesn't benefit you as a whole.
- [35:02]
A
And it's inconvenient. And it sucks.
- [35:04]
B
Yeah, and it sucks. And so if he's not willing to do that for you on such a small level, like, the small things make up the big things, he's like, what about one day when you have a kid and, you know, you need him to do something for the kid and it's not convenient for him. Cause he's like, well, my job is so important. Like, you will never be an equal partner in that relationship. And I always took that with me. And I never, from that point, I basically never did the fake reach. I was like, I'm not doing it. This is the standard I want to set. And that was just my kind of how I, how I operated. And nobody ever said anything. It's funny, if you listen to the comments on social media, you would think that there is this massive, you know, like, blowout over, like, men paying and women being like, you know, entitled to men paying for dates. But, like, nobody ever said anything. You know, I just didn't reach and I never had anybody ask me to do it. But why did you do the fake reach? Cause it's very like, you just go for what you want if you wanted him to pay. It's very off brand for you.
- [36:08]
A
I think at the time I was still in my, like, power girl feminism means we are directly equal era. And so I was like, it makes sense for me to do the fake reach. And, like, at least offer, right? But the more I thought about it, like, I wasn't dating men who made the same amount of money as I did. They were all a year or two older, so they were making more money. They were probably, you know, more established in their situation. And frankly, like, gender pay gaps still exist. Babes, like, you paying, and also just, like, I think, like, over time, I realized that, like, the right guy, we would have that conversation later. So, like, for example, when my now husband and I started dating, he paid for probably, like, the first four or five dates. And then it got to a point where I was like, well, he's only a year older than me. He makes more money, but he certainly isn't making that much more, right? And then I offered to pick up the tab, and he was like, oh, really? And I was like, yeah. Like, listen, Like, I was like, I so appreciate that for the first five dates we've been on, you've picked up every single tab, whether they were big or small. And you've never made me feel any type of way. But, like, it is also reasonably not sustainable for you to keep doing this, because I have a general semblance of, like, what you're making. And we talked about this years and years later. He was like, oh, dude, I was running so in the red that first month when we were starting to date. He was like, I was just really trying to impress you. And, like, I did not have it like that. Like, I was just eating into savings, right? And imagine if me as a partner did not have, like, the, you know, emotional intelligence to recognize that, like, someone else also has financial goals and, like, financial stability to build. And I never offered. He probably would have just kept paying it, but, like, that would have probably led to the demise of our relationship ultimately. And also, you know, him knowing that I was, you know, new to the city, I was a year behind him, was still getting my feet under me. For him to do that demonstrated to me that he was investing in our relationship and, like, cared about me. I mean, like, there was one day after we finished the date, he was like, okay, like, I'm gonna, like, take you home. And I was like, sir, you're not coming upstairs with me. Like, I'm not like that. And he was like, no, I'm just gonna drop you off. And I'm like, wait, but we're at a restaurant that's, like, maybe four or five blocks from your apartment, and I live all the way in midtown, and we were in downtown at the time. And he was like, no, no, I just, like, want to spend a little extra time with you. And this man paid. I don't know how much the Uber was. Was back in the day, so probably like 30 bucks, if that. But he rode all the way, like, 25 minutes up to Midtown, dropped me off, didn't come inside, and then Ubered home by himself. And in my mind, I was like, this man has invested an hour in just commuting to spend time with me. And it wasn't about the commute. It was about the fact that we could have 25 more minutes together. And that is what made him different. Aside from the fact that he would call me on my bullshit, which I loved. Cause I had too many people tell me I was just right, right, right all the time.
- [39:13]
B
You had a lot of yes men.
- [39:14]
A
Around you, a lot of yes men around me. But this guy, you know, boo. He's boo for a reason. He was like, I would, like, say something out loud. He'd be like, yeah, well, I don't think that's how that works. He'd be like, actually, that's the dumbest shit I've ever heard.
- [39:29]
B
He's like, you're not the smartest person in the room.
- [39:31]
A
Yeah. And that was really nice to have someone be real with me for a second.
- [39:36]
B
Right. Who's gonna help you grow.
- [39:38]
A
Yeah.
- [39:39]
B
I find that interesting that you said you dated a lot of men that just basically said that you were right in everything. I feel like I didn't date a lot of men who thought that, like, I was smarter than them or whatever. Like, I had a lot of men tell me that they were the smartest person in the room and how much they knew. But I think the other thing is you guys are only a year apart. And that makes a difference too, in terms of, like, you're kind of building together.
- [40:01]
A
But I've dated, like, people who are like, my age or a year ab. But I've also dated people who are like six to eight years older than me.
- [40:08]
B
And that's a different dynamic.
- [40:09]
A
Yes, very different.
- [40:10]
B
Now it's my husband's six and a half years older than me. When I met him, he was 34. I was 27. He was very established in his career. I was making decent money as, you know, as a real estate agent, but nothing. What he was nothing close to what he was making in his job that he had been at for 10 years. And so the dynamic was very different. Now I. It, like, it's mind boggling to me that there's that age gap because we're so, like, equal in terms of, like, how we interact in our marriage. But it makes the difference, I think, in that situation, when you do realize that the man is making so much more than you. I was like, I don't feel bad.
- [40:47]
A
No, no, no, no. I was like, for the guys who were much older or I knew were, like, much more senior in their careers, I do think I was just more inclined to be like, okay, thank you so much for dinner. Like, but you know what? Like, I think it's. I am really happy that Boo is only a year and a half older than me. He's, like, the one grade above me. But we were like, we met as equals. Like, we really did meet as equals. We, like, neither of us had much more money than the other. I mean, over the first, I want to say, like, three, four, five years of our life together, he made significantly more money than me, probably 2, 3x. And it wasn't until relatively recently, the past couple years, that, like, I have become the breadwinner. And what I love so much was that he never made me feel less than for making less than. And he would never be like, oh, I'm gonna put you in a weird financial spot just because I want to live in a nicer apartment or live closer to the office or, like, any of that stuff. And just. You can tell a lot about a person by how they treat money.
- [41:53]
B
At what stage in the relationship did you guys disclose, like, how much you made? How much was in savings? Because I always think that's like a very.
- [42:00]
A
A month.
- [42:00]
B
In a month. That's it.
- [42:02]
A
It's because I was in a bad situation. So I had a girl roommate that I had lived with in Midtown. We were in, like, a high rise apartment, but we were splitting a studio. Like, it was basically an NYU dorm room. And we would, like, sit up and, like, look at each other like Charlie and the Chocolate Factory grandparents. So we end up, you know, living together well for a year. So we're like, okay, let's move downtown. We're cool kids now, right? We get an apartment. It's a third floor walk up. It's in the heart of Nolita. I think I am literally about to live my Carrie Bradshaw dreams, right? But we get this apartment, and the first weekend, I'm actually back in Chicago for alumni weekend. And I get a call from her, and she's like, yo, when you get back, like, we have to talk. And I'm like, babes, what's wrong? And she's like, nothing. Like, we just. We just have to Talk when you get back. And I'm like, are you mad at me because you're about to blow up my entire weekend? And she's like, let's just talk when you get back. I'm like, okay, I'm gonna think about this.
- [42:51]
B
So ominous. Why couldn't she just have talked to you when you got back? I hate that.
- [42:55]
A
Yeah, I hated it. So I came back. I'm like, yo, what's going on? And she's like, okay. So I want to be really honest with you. I slept here for the first night, and I was playing on my phone, like, looking at, you know, whatever. Like, she was like, just on social media on her phone at midnight. She's like, I put my phone down because I was ready to go to bed. I walked to the bathroom, I flicked on the light so I could go pee. And she's like, I saw a thousand little things scurry away. Ew. And we ended up having a horrific German, not regular American, German cockroach infestation. Why is that an important detail? Because they multiply and procreate at, like, six times the speed. So it was a real infestation. Like, we found a dead cockroach in our ice tray. We. I found them in, like, my clothes. It was everywhere. And I was like, I'm in hell because I hate bugs. I have asthma. And just the idea of a cockroach, like, crawling over my face is, like, all I could imagine every single night. And she was dating a guy at the time, and I was dating my now husband. And we were like, we literally can't sleep here. So we both essentially moved in with our boyfriends. And you have to imagine these boys at the time, like, we were 23, 24. Like, they had roommates. And so suddenly I'm living in 700 square feet with my mans that I've literally only been dating for one month. Like, we met one month, like, really, really bad one month ago. And then his roommate. And so I sat down with Boo and I was like, yo, I gotta talk to you. I was like, I'm not sleeping in this roach hotel. But the rent on that place was four grand, two apiece, her and me. And it's gonna cost us eight grand to break the lease for her for me, that is going to wipe out my entire first year bonus or what's left of it. And I literally cannot afford to pay you rent. Like, I'm about to start living paycheck to paycheck after this lease break fee and to pay movers and stuff. Like, that. I was like, this is how much I make. This is what I have saved. I'm putting it all on the table. You can let me know, like, if this is gonna be a problem, but, like, I can't afford to, like, chip in on rent with you and your roommate. I was very, very lucky. His roommate was super chill, very gracious. He was like, I literally don't care. I, like, don't even know she's here. I was a really good roommate, by the way. Like, I would do extra nice things because I knew I was intruding in their space. But also, he told me. He was like, I would never make you pay rent to live with me. He's like, I'm happy you're here. I'm like, is that a lie? But ultimately, I moved in with him a month into our relationship, 30 days into our relationship, and then that girlfriend and I actually moved into another apartment, midtown. We had to, like, literally have all of our stuff in, like, these bags, by the way, you suck out all the air, and then you leave them in the sun for, like, a week. So I had no access to any of my stuff that was in that.
- [46:03]
B
Because you're trying to kill eggs.
- [46:05]
A
Yes. Yes. And you have to, like, spray everything. It's, like, horrible. Anyway, she and I lived together for, I want to say, like, six to eight months, at which point I was just like. His lease was coming up, and we were like, we just really want to move in together. So we ended up moving in together, and I got a subletter, and she was great, too. So my roommate ended up becoming friends with that girl. But I look back on that, and it's so funny to me. One, because that is against every single piece of dating advice you've ever heard is like, don't move in with this person 30 days in. I'm married now. We've been together over seven years. But also, that exact same story happened for my roommate. And as soon as we got that new apartment uptown, the day after we moved into that apartment, she broke up with the guy that she had been staying at his apartment. Cause she was like, I hate you.
- [46:56]
B
Okay. So she kind of realized the opposite of you. You just strengthened your relationship. And she was, like, living with you for how long were you with each other's boyfriend? Or, I mean, living with your boyfriend?
- [47:06]
A
About a month.
- [47:06]
B
About a month.
- [47:07]
A
It was the month that it took us to, like, break our lease, get movers, find that much.
- [47:11]
B
She realized I can't live with.
- [47:12]
A
Yes.
- [47:13]
B
I mean, it's kind of that's how Covid happened. You know, a lot of COVID relationships.
- [47:17]
A
I know so many Covid engagement call offs.
- [47:19]
B
Really?
- [47:20]
A
Yes.
- [47:20]
B
Yeah. Cause they just.
- [47:21]
A
People don't like their partners.
- [47:22]
B
I know they don't like them that much. They like them in small quantities and everything. But like to live full time with your partner and not have any escape. I mean, that's the thing is like, when people hear that Dave and I lived with my parents for four months, that's hardcore. Everyone's like, oh my God. And I'm like, it was actually really easy. It was great. And had I known that we as a civilization would have lived to see the end of COVID and be fine, I would have enjoyed that time so much more.
- [47:49]
A
So much more.
- [47:49]
B
I would have taken that as a four month vacation. I would have learned all of my mom's delicious Chinese recipes. I just spent four months hoarding toilet paper and having an anxiety attack and.
- [48:01]
A
Wasting and like cleaning groceries with sanitizer.
- [48:03]
B
It's absolutely. And like, you know, we would do this thing in the beginning where we would get these groceries and then leave it out in the sun for like four days because my mom was like, and. But then produce doesn't work like that. Like, you can't get bok choy and leave it out in the sun for four days that it's all wilted. But then we would still eat it because we're like, at least it's safe. Yeah, it was dark days. But Covid really brought us together and really solidified the fact that, like, for me and Dave, I was like, this is it.
- [48:30]
A
Like, this is the man.
- [48:32]
B
And I think the other thing too, that maybe people don't understand with an interracial relationship like this. I was always afraid that I'm so close with my parents. I never wanted the guy I was with to judge them, to kind of look down on them for not being American because it happened. I have felt that before. It's like, you know, there are just a little.
- [48:50]
A
But if the guy that you were with did feel that way and look down on your parents, he wouldn't have been the right guy.
- [48:56]
B
100%. I would have left him. But I was just so comfortable. And Dave fits in so well with my family. Like we always say, he's an egg. Like white on the outside, yellow on the inside. He is oddly Chinese in his own personal values. And that's why it works. Like, now I know why it didn't work with all these other men that I dated because. Because we were just Too different culturally, like, as individuals. So he fits in really well with my family. Shockingly well. And we discovered that through Covid. But, yeah, I mean, look, in one of those situations, it's kind of make or break. One month in, you move in together, and it works out. You're like, this is probably gonna be fine, right?
- [49:35]
A
Covid was honestly, really, I don't even want to. I, like, don't want to brag. But, like, Covid was, like, pretty easy for us because really, we were in 700, 750 square feet. But, like, it was just nice to be together. And, like, we would be so tired with job and work stuff. Both of us. Like, our careers really picked up during that time, but it was just so nice. Like, we, like, halfway through the day, I would, like, go and, like, harass him while he was working, and, like, I don't get to do that anymore. And I'll just come in and, like, watch, like, you know, reels or something next to him, and he's like, can you go away? But, like, it was just so nice to be together. And, like, I think now that I'm bi, coastal, and I spend my time in New York and Miami and la, like, any time that we are together, it just feels so precious. And I get so sad thinking about how I did not spend even more time, like, literally glommed onto his person like a barnacle during COVID Cause, like, now it's, like, it's harder to come by. Like, my time is really, really scarce. And, like, when we are spending time together, it's just nice.
- [50:34]
B
No, I agree. And I don't even think we. Dave and I need to be doing anything special. Like, I just love being with him on the couch on a Friday night. And I almost think sometimes it's like, you know, and we know couples who love to travel, and that's how they spend their time together. But I'm like, this is the weirdest.
- [50:52]
A
Fun fact about you that you ever told me is that you don't like to travel.
- [50:55]
B
I do not.
- [50:56]
A
That is so weird. And not millennial coded at all.
- [50:59]
B
I know. It's. I am an anomaly, and my husband does not like to travel. And we are just very weird like that. We hate getting on flights. We hate the whole rigmarole of booking flights in a hotel especially. Oh, my God, don't even get me started on foreign travel. Like, we don't want to go to freaking Austin, Texas, for a weekend trip, right? Let alone Europe. Like, that is.
- [51:21]
A
I literally so deeply cannot relate to this.
- [51:24]
B
I know, this is where we. This is where we differ. We're very similar in a lot of ways. But you love to travel. You guys love going. I mean, you had your wedding in Italy, for fuck's sake. We had our wedding in my hometown in Pennsylvania. And guess where we went for our HoneyMoo? Palm Beach, Florida. That is where we decided to go. We stayed at the breakers. Yes. 100. I feel 85 inside, but I just really like my stuff. I like knowing where things are. I don't like having to deal with the plugs. Here's what I will say though. Going on a brand trip to Europe is so different than planning it yourself because I just show up and I just know people are going to get me places. Like if we go to Europe on our own and shit gets fucked up. Like, I've got to figure out how to handle this situation on a brand trip because that's honestly where I've really gone abroad these days is for work. They have like teams of people just making sure, like my personhood gets from point A to point B. That's very relaxing to me. But the other way, like where we're planning a vacation and it's a completely foreign country, like, that's not relaxing at all.
- [52:26]
A
That's so funny that you say that because I like that desire to not plan those things. Like, I don't wanna plan those things either, either. But I think about those opportunities as like, I have all this freedom to pick exactly where we eat. I have the freedom to decide the schedule. We can choose where we go and visit. It's just like, I don't know. I. I think it has a lot to do with like the first big, big memory we have with each other is travel. So again, don't do this. 0 out of 10 recommend. I had been dating this man for roughly 3 months.
- [53:03]
B
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- [54:28]
A
And on Wall street, when you are in certain roles, like trading, you have to take mandatory block leave, AKA you need to have your vacation, like, consecutive so that the auditing firms can basically make sure that you're not, like, doing anything sketchy while you're gone. Because, like, the numbers will change if, like, you're not doing something sketchy. But you were the whole time you were there. So I had two weeks off, and I turned to him and I'm like, I have two weeks off. None of my other girlfriends would ever be able to get two weeks off consecutively. But, like, in our industry, it's so normal to take that much time off consecutively because of the law. Do you think you could get your two weeks off around these dates, too? We somehow managed to make these two weeks line up. We took planes, trains, automobiles. We sat in the middle section on an Alitalia flight in seats two and three of the five, so both middle seats. To get ourselves to Italy, we stayed in Positano for one week. I just remember, I look back on that time and I'm like, that might actually be the happiest I've ever been. Because we had no concerns. And that's not to say, like, being in Italy for my wedding, I wasn't happy. But, like, things are different now. I'm older. I'm the CEO of my business. There's always, like, worries in the back of my mind. But at this time, I'm 22, 23, whatever, like, literally have four working brain cells. I am with this man that I am deeply in love with. I have no work responsibilities because I have a W2 job. So somebody else is covering my shit. And every single night. We went to a fun little restaurant during the day we would literally eat like power bars because, like, we couldn't afford to like go out to eat like multiple times a day. But like, we would go out to eat, we would have like a really nice meal for dinner and then we would walk home to the hotel and we would pass this stupid little gelato shop, shop, and we would get a cup of straziatella gelato to share every single night. And then we would sit on like the little terrace or the patio or even just open a window and we would laugh until probably like 2, 3 in the morning. And I can't even tell you what we were talking about or what it was, but like, I remember how it made me feel like for the first time, like I had found someone who truly, deeply understood me.
- [56:50]
B
Right.
- [56:51]
A
And, and we just, we, we had like so many fun little memories from that. Like after that we went to Athens and this. I don't know what happened. He must have like run out of socks. But like, he wore his sneakers without socks one time and it was just like this running joke about how stinky his sneakers were. And then we went to Santorini and we would, we would watch like Rick and Morty on the hotel WI fi through like a vpn because you like definitely were not allowed to be like streaming stuff on this hotel WI fi. But like, I only have good memories from that two weeks of my life. Like, not a single worry about my career, not a single worry about my friends, not a single worry about my family. Nothing in my life plagued me and I was just so carefree. Carefree is really the word. I think every trip we've taken since then, we've been chasing that. And don't get me wrong, our vacations have gotten way better. Like, we're not flying. You're flying. We're flying lay flat business. We're staying at the nicest hotel. You know, we're taking cars versus having to trek two miles back from the restaurant because we don't want to pay for a taxi. But like, I think it's always been trying to recreate the joy and carefree nature that we felt on that trip.
- [58:07]
B
Do you think money ruins that? Like, do you think you'll ever get back to that place? Because I, you know, it's this idea of like, oh, and I have this conversation with my parents every year around the holidays because we, you know, they are living in the suburbs of Philadelphia and it is the working class, blue collar neighborhoods that have the most Christmas decorations, that just the neighbors all know each other and they Just seem like true Christmas spirit. True Christmas spirit. And you go to these really wealthy neighborhoods and the lights are dark. Nobody puts out any decor. If they do, it's like a string of lights around the roof and like one reindeer. And my dad has always said, he's like, I feel like, you know, people with less money are ironically, sometimes happier because they live simpler lives. They want less. The richer you get, the poorer you feel sometimes, because you just think about how much more you could have. Yeah, I don't know if that's true. Like, I hated being poor, quite frankly. Like, we grew up without a lot anything. And so, I mean, the first time I lived in a house even, and it was a townhouse, I was 12 years old. So we had rented up until then. So I am not a believer that money can't buy happiness. I love having money now. But I also wonder if there's a balance.
- [59:26]
A
Yeah, I do. I think not that money ruins that experience. I think, frankly, perspective, responsibilities, and maybe age, wisdom and time do. Because now I just have a wider comparison set, right. Like, that was the nicest vacation I'd ever been on. And so I didn't know any better. Now my expectation is that I'm laying flat on the flight over. And I know how to use credit card points to get it, so I don't even have to pay for it in cash. So if I were to have to fly sitting upright in seats two and three in the middle section on an Alitalia flight where I play mahjong for eight hours, like, it feels a lot worse. But even recently we've had to do that and it's been still funny and. Okay, so, like, this is a personal shortcoming again. I have no concept of time management. And this was like a year or two ago. So very recently we had United Polaris, lay flat business class seats to Paris, and we were going to go to Paris, I think it was to, you know, just like, have a little vacation, whatever. I can't remember if I was, like, celebrating something in my career, what have you. And he was going from his office at the time, which was in Hudson Yards, to Newark. And I was going from our apartment, which is downtown in the SoHo ish area. And I had a couple tasks that. You're making a face. I had a couple tasks that I wanted to get done, but I may or may not have left a little later than I should have. And I got caught in the Holland Tunnel traffic. And I ended up calling him, being like, I don't think I'm Gonna make the flight. I'm so sorry. You go, I'll take another flight later. He goes, you dumbass, I have your passport. I cannot go without you.
- [61:28]
B
Oh my God.
- [61:29]
A
And so he's like, God damn it. He's so mad. We end up buying last minute flights on French B, which is the equivalent of Spirit Airlines of France.
- [61:42]
B
Like, I've never even heard of that.
- [61:43]
A
You've never heard of it because you don't need to. They were super expensive. Because they were. The day of we were taking the flight, they were like literally for three hours later, we sat in seats one and two in a four seater middle section. So he got the. I let him have the aisle because I was like, I. The reason you are currently suffering.
- [62:00]
B
Right.
- [62:00]
A
I will take a middle seat on this flight. I saw a woman balance her food tray on her bare foot. I saw some, I saw some stuff. And this whole time we knew in the back of our minds we, we had two seats right on a United Polaris lay flat experience. And I thought he was going to be so mad at me. We got to Paris and he was like, you're such an idiot. I can't believe you missed that flight. Look at how we had to suffer. We laughed about it the whole trip and it was still an incredible time. And even though, was it nice to spend eight hours next to bare feet people on a plane? No.
- [62:45]
B
Yeah.
- [62:46]
A
But it sometimes just reminds you like where you came from and it's honestly kind of comical. And now he always lords it over my head when I want to leave later and later and later. And he's like, I don't want to bring up old history, but remember French B. But he's like, french B, do you remember that time? I'm like, you know what? We'll leave when you want to leave.
- [63:09]
B
That is the other difference between you and I. I'm the person that at the airport three hours early, I would never be at. I would never miss a flight. Like, that's just not in my DNA.
- [63:20]
A
The frequency at which I'm running in an airport is almost 10 out of 10. Like every time I'm at an airport, I'm running late.
- [63:27]
B
My anxiety would not. I just can't. And Dave is not quite as bad as me, but he's not like you.
- [63:33]
A
Like, you're an airport dad.
- [63:34]
B
Yeah. I would have divorced you probably if. If you had missed our United Polaris flight and I had to fly French B, that would have been grounds for divorce.
- [63:44]
A
Honestly, he was such a good sport about it. Like, we laughed about it. But, like, I think now, like, money is able to buy the security that you need. And the best purchases that we have made together as a couple, but even as me as an individual are not so much like, oh, I bought, like, this amazing piece of jewelry. It was like I was able to call a Uber Black in the rain. Even though it was $97 to get home. I didn't have to take the subway at 11:30 at night. I was able to stay dry, stay in the car, feel safe, get home, no problem. And like, the way I think about money is like, money 1,000% buys you happiness. That baseline level happiness. After a certain point, without a doubt, there are diminishing marginal returns. There was a study back in the day that it was like, at $75,000, you aren't any happier. Then they found another. They did another study. That's not true. Your happiness just actually continues to increase.
- [64:42]
B
But to what point?
- [64:43]
A
To what point? I don't know because, like, they certainly weren't testing this with, like, Elon Musk.
- [64:49]
B
Right.
- [64:49]
A
Like, at a certain point, there are diminishing marginal returns between staying at the Amman versus the Four Seasons.
- [64:56]
B
Right.
- [64:57]
A
The couple staying at the Amman versus the Four Seasons. I highly doubt the Amman couple is happier than the Four Seasons. Do I think the Four Seasons couple is meaningfully happier than the, like, the Super 8 couple? Yeah, I do. And I think they have a better, safer life. But ultimately it's really what you make of it and what you value and what you want to spend your money on.
- [65:17]
B
Fair. You and I talked about this on your podcast. Here's where we also differ. Prenups. You are a staunch advocate of prenups. And I don't have one. Don't have one. And I really only believe in them in very special, certain circumstances, which I know is not the problem, which you.
- [65:35]
A
Are in because both of you are high net worth earners and high net worth individuals.
- [65:39]
B
Yeah, I think I just think about, like, how much money we would actually have to, you know. And the thing is, it's the families too. I really think of prenups, like, if there's generational wealth to protect that I was not a part of or you were not a part of, then I really think you should have a prenup. But in general, that's my own opinion. I am willing to make or lie in my bed or whatever the saying is. But why should women get a prenup? Because I also am not well educated on what prenups protect against. I know for me I have a very kind of maybe archaic idea of prenups and I'm like, actually okay with it. It's one area where I know I'm a little ignorant and I'm like, happy living in ignorance.
- [66:17]
A
You know what, if you can live with the consequences of something that were to happen, that's fine. You are allowed to be ignorant. I'm telling you, it may cost you.
- [66:29]
B
Oh, it would cost me.
- [66:30]
A
Yeah. Yeah. And in my mind, the reason to always write your own prenup is because even if you don't write one, you get one.
- [66:37]
B
Right.
- [66:37]
A
And the government gets to write it. And depending on what in the US Case, state jurisdiction you live in, you may be happy or unhappy with those terms. For me, I genuinely don't trust the government as far as I can throw them. More so now. But like, I want to be able to, to dictate the course of this ship. I want to be able to dictate the course of my life. And especially when you have a unique financial situation. In our case, my partner is in the private equity business. So not only does he get paid a salary, he gets to invest alongside some of those funds. So there's a lot of investing happening. He gets carry, there's bonuses, da da da da. That's a little bit of a already nuanced financial perspective. Then you've got me. My income is deeply inconsistent. I am my own CEO. I have huge costs. So I'm talking 25% off the top to agent, manager, attorney. I've got a publicist, a business manager. I've got two full time employees and editors that I pay. Suddenly these people's wealth and success is deeply tied to mine. And, and I wanted to make sure we had a prenup that was representative of how generous he was to me. And so honestly, when I tell people about the terms of our prenup, people are always like, wow, he got a sweet deal. He did. But it's representative of the generosity that I saw from him in day one. So I told you, the first four or five years he made more money 2, 3x. He paid for more stuff, he paid for more rent, he paid for the vacations. Now I'm making 2, 3x what he's making. We're both 7 figure earners, but anything that we take into the marriage is 50, 50. Anything coming out that we or anything that we obtain during the marriage, 50, 50. And we will split everything 50, 50. With the exception of a full carve out of my business, he will not have any equity. He does not get to get a say if things don't work out. He's not entitled to any future revenue if we part. The reason that was so important to me is because one, I built this by myself. Sure I was. He was there to support me. He was the reason why I felt so comfortable taking the sleep. But I am the one grinding in it day in and day out. On top of that. You know this. We both have representation. What representation would take you on knowing that your ex husband had a 50% stake in your business business and you couldn't make a single decision without consulting them? Nobody's touching you with a ten foot pole. Your career's done. And especially now in a society where social media often has massive financial repercussions, both good and bad. When you are building out your life with someone and social media is a big part of your business, you need to take that into consideration of like, who gets what. Like, this man can't be like, give me the login to like yaritch bff. If we get divorced, it's not our account, it's my account. And so I have just always wanted to make that very clear. Yes, you can enjoy the spoils and the benefits of the brand partnerships. I'm currently taking my book advance, money that I make on the podcast, my speaking gigs, anything like that, right now, the cash coming in the door is ours. But if things don't work out, that business is mine and every future dollar is mine.
- [70:06]
B
Okay, that's fair.
- [70:08]
A
Yeah, that's very fair.
- [70:09]
B
Do you think husbands and wives should keep separate accounts when they get married?
- [70:12]
A
Hell yes.
- [70:13]
B
Really?
- [70:14]
A
Hell yes. I think you should have a joint account, but I think in particular women need to hear this. You need to always have your own money. Money that is not controlled by any other human being but you. You. We just got the right to have our own credit cards, our own savings accounts, to be able to take out mortgages in our own name. And I'm not talking like just as in like a hundred years ago. I'm talking just as in a couple decades ago.
- [70:37]
B
Right.
- [70:37]
A
And so you need to retain that power. We do a yours, mine. In our system, we have a big joint pot that we use to pay things like our mortgage, that we use to pay things like my, like the rent in Miami that we pay, utilities, wi Fi, like all of that stuff. But he has his own account and I have mine. And I don't have to ask for permission to go get my eyelashes, you know, done. I don't have to ask for Permission to go to dinner tonight with you? He doesn't have to ask me for permission if he wants to go play a round of golf. Like, we are both responsible financial practitioners. I would not have married this man if he was not. And we have to recognize that, like, some of that money is ours, and some of that money can be used individually. It's not a bad thing.
- [71:24]
B
Oh, that's great. I think that's great advice. Dave and I have separate accounts only because we started off with separate accounts, and we've honestly just been too lazy to create a joint account.
- [71:32]
A
You guys don't have a joint account at all?
- [71:34]
B
We don't, but our funds are so commingled that it really doesn't matter. It's almost as if everything is a joint account.
- [71:40]
A
Yeah.
- [71:41]
B
Like, you know, we don't think about it. It's like, okay. Because we get paid in very strange ways. Like, he gets one big bonus at the end of the year, and his salary during the year is quite small, so he's really bonus heavy. So he really gets one big payment in December or January. I get paid like a crazy person, you know? So it's. Whoever has cash right now pays for it. And so, you know, we joke about. I just. I've hitched my wagon to his, right? I mean, check in with me in 10 years. But it's like, we joke about, like, if we were to get a divorce, it would be so financially messy because it's like, everybody pays for everything. There was never any. And also, in a. He is a W2 employee, so his taxes are very. You know, they're taken out of his paycheck. I am not. So I have to pay estimated taxes. And those are hefty bills now. And the way it worked, I don't know why. For any of you who are CPAs, you probably understand our CPA was like, he needs to pay your estimated taxes out of his account or else for some reason, it'll get fucked up with the government. They won't count that towards our joint household because we first started filing separately. Somebody. I need to get an accountant on here to tell me why that is. But so now he's paying my estimated taxes quarterly.
- [72:57]
A
This man's like, you make the money, I pay the taxes.
- [73:01]
B
But it's like, that's how entrenched we are. So. But I still think that women should keep their own bank accounts because we are fine like this, because we're on equal footing. And again, we don't ask each other for permission. And he also spends like, no money. Like, there's no. Like, I'm like, can I please buy you a new pair of jeans? Yours are falling. He's like, these work fine. I'm like, they're ripped and they're not. Like, they weren't meant to be ripped.
- [73:25]
A
Yeah. Like, they're not cool ripped.
- [73:26]
B
They're like, at the butt ripped. Yeah, they're just ripped, like, right. So I am the one that has, like, purchases that are kind of extraneous. But yeah, I think the women who are like, oh, I need to ask my husband. And that still exists in our generation. I'm just like, what are you doing? And also, there are still women that are like, I never look at a bill. I never look at a bank statement.
- [73:48]
A
That's crazy, by the way.
- [73:49]
B
I know. But I think it's just sort of like, we don't have the luxury anymore to do that.
- [73:54]
A
No.
- [73:55]
B
And I don't want to. You know, it's not a knock against women who are stay at home moms and wives, and they're the CEO of the house and they do a lot. But it's like you being in the home and running the house does not give you license to be ignorant about the finances because that might. Might come back and haunt you one day.
- [74:10]
A
Divorce happens.
- [74:11]
B
Yeah.
- [74:12]
A
Your partners die. Most women die alone because we live longer. So, like, at some point, you're gonna have to manage your own money. What are you gonna do? Like, you don't have kids, they're not gonna. They're not gonna be able to help you. You have a son, maybe he'll help you. You have a daughter. Are you gonna rely on her in a way that was not expected of you as a woman?
- [74:27]
B
Right.
- [74:27]
A
Like, that's weird. So I just think all women need to understand their money. They need to know where it's coming from, where it's going, what it's being spent on, how much debt you have, what you have as, like, a net.
- [74:37]
B
Worth and how to invest it.
- [74:39]
A
How to invest it.
- [74:39]
B
I know so many women who have no say in how the money is invested. We talk about every investment decision we make together. So my last question is, I had a follower who dmed me last year, and I'll always remember this, and I went back and I found it, and she said to me, I'm getting a divorce and I'm going to soon be a single mom. I never went to college or ever worked because I got married straight out of high school. And I have no idea where to even start. I'm so scared because I've relied on my husband for the last decade and the amount of child support he's going to give me is not enough to support my son and I. What's your advice to that woman?
- [75:17]
A
Yeah, that's. That's a really tough one. I'm curious why she feels like the child support wouldn't be enough because was it. Was how much that the husband was contributing while they were together enough? Because I feel like she might be able to go and get a bigger child support payment on top of that. I would say there is truly never a time where you can't start over. It's gonna be hard. Like let's not, let's cut the shit. Like you are gonna be down bad for quite some time. You're gonna have to rely on your village. So that means family, friends, people that are gonna be able to help you and take some costs off your back. So things like child care, like if they're already going to be driving that their kid to school, can they come and swing by and pick yours up? You're going to have to have some really humbling conversations. You're going to have to ask for help. But I would then try to upskill as best as you can. What are you able to provide? What transferable skills do you have? You've been a household CEO for, you know, however many years. Would you be able to go be an executive assistant? Would you be able to go and be like a business manager and do something along those lines? Think about what transferable skills you have, but also I would say go online. We are now able to be so deeply connected globally. She's not the first woman who's gotten through a divorce, has no degree and has a husband who's not paying her enough. This is a story, you know, as old as time. What are those women doing? They've talked about it. How have they navigated this process? Process. It's one taking advantage of the resources in her community. It's making sure that she is very, very clear about what ultimately does end up coming in versus what's going out and tightening the belt in the meantime. I think it's really about doing all of these things kind of in conjunction. And I know that sounds super overwhelming, but like you are the captain of the ship and you can make it happen.
- [77:17]
B
That's very inspirational. Thank you so much for being here today. Where can everyone find you?
- [77:23]
A
You can find me across all social media as yourrichbff and you can get my New York Times best selling book at richaf me. Check it out. Give it a read.
- [77:31]
B
Thanks so much.
- [77:33]
A
Of course. Hey, I'm Ryan Reynolds.
- [77:34]
B
Recently, I asked Mint Mobile's legal team.
- [77:37]
A
If big wireless companies are allowed to raise prices due to inflation. They said yes. And then when I asked if raising.
- [77:43]
B
Prices technically violates those onerous two year.
- [77:45]
A
Contracts, they said, what the are you talking about? You insane Hollywood.
- [77:50]
B
So to recap, we're cutting the price of mint unlimited from $30 a month to just $15 a month.
- [77:55]
A
Give it a try@mintmobile.com switch. $45 upfront payment equivalent to $15 per month. New customers on first three month plan only. Taxes and fees. Extra Speed slower above 40 gigabytes.
- [78:03]
B
Details.