← Brutally Anna
Brutally Anna
Why you should stop thinking and start doing with Mathilde Thomas, co-founder of Caudalie
00:54:52
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- [00:01]
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- [00:23]
Anna Cai
Welcome to Brutally Anna, a podcast about.
- [00:25]
Mathilde Thomas
Finding love, losing love, and all the.
- [00:27]
Anna Cai
Things we think about but don't talk about enough.
- [00:30]
Mathilde Thomas
I'm your host, Anna Cai, AKA maybe both across social media, here to remind you that life can be beautiful even.
- [00:36]
Anna Cai
When it's freaking brutal. She's the founder of the cult favorite French skin care company Caudalie. And over the last 30 years, Mathilde Thomas, along with her partner in crime and in business, Bertrand, have been revolutionizing skincare as we know it by harnessing the power of grape seeds and committing to clean beauty. Before any of us were even aware that beauty could be dirty, I had the honor of spending a week in Bordeaux with Mathilde, Bertrand and the rest of the Caudalie team at the site of the company's origins. And I'm so excited to discuss not only Caudalie's story, but Mathilde and Bertrand's story. Because who we choose to love impacts not only our personal lives, but also our professional ones. Mathilde, hey. Welcome to Brutally Anna. It was such an honor to be part of the Caudalie heritage trip, and I'm so excited to have you on today. And I want to start off with this question because what I found was so interesting about that trip was you are very much the face of the brand. Everybody knows that. But this is actually a family business and your husband Bertrand is very involved. He's more behind the scenes. Can you tell me a little bit about how the two of you met in the early stages of your relationship?
- [01:44]
Bertrand Thomas
Oh, yes, of course. I'm so happy to be here, Anna. We met back in the days in. In school, actually, right after high school, back in 1990 and it was in Paris. He was parking his red motorbikes and I was parking my green bike next to his motorbike, and the rest is history. So we met. We were kids.
- [02:08]
Anna Cai
You met on motorbikes on the street? Literally just on the street?
- [02:11]
Bertrand Thomas
No, we were parking and we were going at the same school.
- [02:14]
Anna Cai
Oh, okay.
- [02:14]
Bertrand Thomas
He was a classmate.
- [02:15]
Mathilde Thomas
Oh, he was a classmate.
- [02:17]
Bertrand Thomas
He was my college boyfriend.
- [02:20]
Anna Cai
And it lasted into college.
- [02:22]
Bertrand Thomas
It lasted into college. And then we went into two different college. He Was in Paris. I was in the south of France because I wanted to study the fragrance business. So I was in Nice. And that was tough. It was three years being abroad.
- [02:38]
Anna Cai
And you're young and you're so young.
- [02:40]
Bertrand Thomas
I know.
- [02:41]
Anna Cai
When you first met him, was it sort of this instantaneous connection? Because that's so rare, first of all, to meet somebody randomly on the street and, you know, be next to them and then go into school. But then a lot of times these things don't work out long term. So what was that first connection like? How did you both know? Did he ask you on a date? Are you going on dates at 19?
- [03:07]
Bertrand Thomas
Well, he asked me. No, he just told me I could help you for your math.
- [03:13]
Anna Cai
That was his pickup line. I could help you with math.
- [03:16]
Bertrand Thomas
That's the pickup line of a 19 year old. Well, we didn't do much math.
- [03:22]
Anna Cai
Is that what we call it now? Actually, you know what's so funny? When I was in high school, my girlfriends and I used to all get together at each other's houses and obviously our parents were around and we would have a code phrase for talking about making out with boys because we didn't want our parents to know we were kissing boys. So we would call it doing homework. Oh, I did homework with Chad or I did homework with Brad. So the fact that he was like, let's do homework. You did homework with Bertrand?
- [03:55]
Bertrand Thomas
Yes, I did.
- [03:56]
Anna Cai
I did. Did you know right away that you were attracted to him or was it more like, did he sort of work on you?
- [04:04]
Bertrand Thomas
He was. He was super cute. And then he worked on me. He proposed many times to help me with my homework.
- [04:11]
Anna Cai
You're like, I'm actually good at my homework.
- [04:14]
Bertrand Thomas
And it worked at the end. But no, we had many connections. First, he was American. His mother is. I loved the US at the time already. And we talked a lot about that. And he was super handsome. And no, no, we were attracted by each other, but we didn't know we were going to create Kodali at the time. We were just working on our math.
- [04:36]
Anna Cai
Just working on math. Did you date anyone prior to meeting him, or was he your first boyfriend?
- [04:42]
Bertrand Thomas
Of course I did. I had a boyfriend for a year and a half before it was quite serious, but it was in the French Alps. And then I moved to Paris.
- [04:51]
Anna Cai
Okay.
- [04:52]
Bertrand Thomas
And when I met Bertrand, I forgot about my old boyfriend.
- [04:57]
Anna Cai
That's so funny. People ask me all the time whether long distance can affect a relationship. And my opinion is that if it's meant to be long distance won't matter, because if the distance kills you because there's no end date, then you probably weren't meant to be because you and Bertrand did long distance for three. Three years.
- [05:19]
Bertrand Thomas
But that was not easy. It was a roller coaster. And we were not always together during those three years. And you can believe that when you're in college, you are partying a lot and meeting a lot of young people. So it was not easy. But we knew that if we could make it happen through the three years, it would be for the rest of our life. We knew that it was a good test. Long distance is a good test.
- [05:45]
Anna Cai
It's a good test of work.
- [05:46]
Bertrand Thomas
Three years was long.
- [05:47]
Anna Cai
Did you date any? So you guys broke up. You said in between that three years, or you got back together. And it was very volatile.
- [05:55]
Bertrand Thomas
It was not easy. Let's put it this way.
- [05:59]
Anna Cai
That's fair, you know, and that's. That's so nice to hear, because so many of our listeners that are probably in that volatile stage, and many of them will make it, but I always think that the people who break up and get back together, like, I don't personally believe in breaking up and getting back together, especially at my age, right? I'm 34. If I'm dating somebody my age or somebody who's 40, and they need to leave me to figure out whether they want to be with me, it's like, guys, we're all adults. We're just not supposed to be together. But I think at that age, when you're 19, 20, 21 years old, it's actually acceptable to break up with your college boyfriend because everybody's trust trying to figure out who they are and what they actually want. So I think that's helpful to know. It's like, hey, it wasn't like we met on our motorbikes in high school, and then we just rode off into the sunset, and everything was easy. Like, it was difficult. You had to make an active choice to want to be together, right?
- [06:52]
Bertrand Thomas
No, it was not easy. It was far. We couldn't travel to see each other right. Very often. So it was not easy. But we knew that when we were not together that we're not happy that you're not happy. So we came back together.
- [07:08]
Anna Cai
And is that how you knew he was the one? Like, what was the moment for you? Was it one moment or was it just a feeling?
- [07:14]
Bertrand Thomas
But during those three years, we were sad not to be together. So that's when we discovered that we were probably meant to be.
- [07:23]
Anna Cai
You're just better together. How did he propose.
- [07:26]
Bertrand Thomas
We did that the reverse way. We actually created Caudalie right after college. And we knew that if we were going to create a company together and being 50, 50 in this company, we would get married at one point. But so we created Caudalie. We filed Caudalie 94 and he proposed a year after. And that was in Bordeaux in the.
- [07:51]
Anna Cai
Vines on your family property?
- [07:54]
Bertrand Thomas
On my family wine estate.
- [07:56]
Anna Cai
That's so beautiful.
- [07:57]
Bertrand Thomas
You know that we have. My family are the winemakers. My sister and her husband, they run and own the hotel in the middle of my family. And we created the cosmetic brand. So it's really a family business.
- [08:10]
Anna Cai
Right.
- [08:11]
Bertrand Thomas
All in all.
- [08:12]
Anna Cai
And if you guys ever have the chance to go to Bordeaux, you absolutely need to visit this property. It's the most gorgeous property, I mean, I think, in all of France. But I'm a little bit partial. It was also, let me just say we went to Bordeaux and we stayed at her lovely property and then we went to Paris. And not that Paris isn't lovely, but it was hard to go to a Parisian resort after staying in Bordeaux and just being around all of that. And it's so majestic and there's so much nature and history there.
- [08:41]
Bertrand Thomas
It's pretty.
- [08:43]
Anna Cai
That is so interesting that you guys created Caudalie before he proposed or got married. You basically did everything out of order. The way people say not to do it. They say, you know, the common knowledge is don't buy a house before you're married together. And you're like, yeah, I mean. Or don't create a company with your partner before you get married. But you just knew.
- [09:07]
Bertrand Thomas
No, I think we were not overthinking. We were super young and we just did it. At the end of our college, we did some market study on how to launch a new skincare brand and we thought it was possible, so we went for it. It just happened.
- [09:24]
Mathilde Thomas
You just didn't think.
- [09:25]
Anna Cai
It's almost better. Because I feel like the takeaway from what you said is don't overthink things. Just do it and see what happens. Because I think so often, I know, myself included, I wanna be ready for everything I do. Like, I want to feel 100% ready before I launch this or that or, you know, and it's sort of just like you're never going to be fully ready. So just dive in and see what happens.
- [09:47]
Bertrand Thomas
That's our philosophy. You just jump in the water and then you figure out how to swim. We were so young at 23, we wouldn't have done it later on. In life because it's so complicated to launch a skincare brand in this highly competitive, fierce industry that if we had known what it was going to be, we would never have done it.
- [10:10]
Anna Cai
But it's good that you didn't know. And it's also a testament to the fact that maybe all of us should find that youth within us. Not so much from a beauty perspective in the way that society says, oh, be young, be young. Right. But more so in spirit, because we're less scared. I remember when I was a kid, and I don't ski, by the way, so let me just. And I know your parents are champion skiers, so I don't ski because I decided that I didn't like it enough to dedicate the amount of time it would take to get good at it. But my parents took me skiing a couple times when I was a kid. I was 10 years old. And I remember at that time, I was fearless. I had no fear. I just shot down the mountain, right? And then I didn't go again until I was 18. And I went with a boyfriend at the time. And I remember hating it. I was so scared I couldn't get down the mountain because I had learned what fear was. And I think that's the idea. It's like the younger you are, the less you fear, because you don't know what you're supposed to fear. And in a way, that's really good. If I had kept that kind of fearlessness when I was 10, I knew it was all in my head, you know, I was like, I know I can get down this mountain and enjoy it. But I was like, well, what if I fall? What if I do this? What if I do that? You know, Natasha Richardson, at that point had passed away from her ski accident. I was, like, thinking all these crazy things. So that's a really inspirational note that you just need to jump and not think about it too much.
- [11:33]
Bertrand Thomas
True. It's true that when we told our friends and our family that we were going to launch a skincare company with grape seed antioxidant extract, they were laughing at us. We were 23 years old.
- [11:48]
Anna Cai
How cute, right? Yeah.
- [11:50]
Bertrand Thomas
So Bertrand's family was like, no, you have a good diploma. Go work for a big company. Go work for L'Oreal, for Lauder. And then you can do that in five years, 10 years. The only person who told us, you should do it now, otherwise you will never do it, because then you'll have mortgage, you'll have a family, you'll have a house. It's going to be more difficult and you have a good salary. With my dad, he said, no, do it now.
- [12:12]
Anna Cai
Really.
- [12:13]
Bertrand Thomas
And then later on he told us, I knew you had a chance out of 1 million of making it happen, but it was worth trying it.
- [12:23]
Anna Cai
Well, for certain, it was definitely worth trying it. You've been open about how you've always pursued a career in beauty. You were a perfumer first. You thought you were going to go into fragrances because you had a talent for that. There's a lot of rhetoric right now in the US about women going back to the home where they, quote, unquote, belong. Did you feel any pressure when you were younger not to pursue a career, or is that not a very French concept?
- [12:51]
Bertrand Thomas
No, it's a French concept. But you met my mom, right?
- [12:54]
Anna Cai
Oh, yeah, that's true.
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Bertrand Thomas
She's a workaholic.
- [12:57]
Anna Cai
Right.
- [12:58]
Bertrand Thomas
And my two grandmothers were also workaholic. One was a teacher of French and philosophy and Greek and Latin, and the other one was a business entrepreneur. They created a supermarket with my grandfather. So I've been surrounded by powerful women who were working, who were financially independent. So it was a no brainer.
- [13:19]
Anna Cai
It was a no brainer. There was almost never an option to be a stay at home mom.
- [13:23]
Bertrand Thomas
No. And I'm sure that my daughters will be like I am because I lead by example.
- [13:30]
Anna Cai
What is your whole opinion on stay at home mothers then? Do you think that that is something that women can aspire to if that's what they want, or do you think they should not aspire to that?
- [13:44]
Bertrand Thomas
I think it's very personal. I think if they like it, they should do it. But then what happens when it's an empty nest, when the kids are gone, when the husband has a very beautiful career and that is picking his brain and he's having so much fun, you have to have other passion. I think they should be careful.
- [14:10]
Anna Cai
Yes. Oh, I love that they should be careful. My parents always told me that the two most important decisions in your life are what you do and who you choose to do it with. And for you, the what and the who are inextricably linked. You are business partners with your husband, and it's very much kind of a 50, 50 thing. It's not like you know anybody sort of just on the sidelines. What are some of the challenges you faced in being business partners with your husband?
- [14:39]
Bertrand Thomas
First, we have the same parents because they told me the person you choose to spend your life with is extremely important. It's going to define your future. So I believe they think the same. And that's what I tell my kids. Working with your husband, it's tough. But my grandparents were working together, my parents are working together, my sister is working with her husband. So we've learned a few rules.
- [15:08]
Anna Cai
Okay?
- [15:09]
Bertrand Thomas
So we fight all the time, we disagree, yet we know how to work together. And what's important is that he has his own field and I have mine. We are very hands on at Kodali still. I'm still behind every single product development, all the content creation, all the research and development is about the organization of the company, making it, it happened, the strategy, all the important thing, making sure that we have money in the company. Basically I spend the money and he makes the money.
- [15:39]
Anna Cai
That's how it always works, right?
- [15:43]
Bertrand Thomas
On his field, he has the last word, he has the decision. And on my field I do. And then of course, I listen to him because if I launch a product and the field team is not behind me and Bertrand works with the field team, that's gonna be a problem. So I need to make sure that we're on the same bandwagon.
- [16:04]
Anna Cai
I love that you said, first of all, we fight all the time, but we know how to fight, because I think that's so important. I fight with my husband all the time. And it's not a contentious relationship, but we fight about things in order to work it out. And I've actually found, looking at my peers, that the ones who don't fight because they don't feel like they can bring up something are the relationships that are the most fragile. Because my husband and I were in it and we're in it together. We're not business partners, but there is stuff we disagree on big things sometimes finances and where we should live and all of those things. But at the end of the day, we're in the same boat together and we're not getting out of it. Right. So was there a moment, I'm curious, or a pivotal decision that you can remember in Caudalie's very long history now, where you and Bertrand vehemently disagreed and how do you move past that?
- [17:02]
Bertrand Thomas
It's a tough one because it's. I would say it's minor disagreement all the time. More than a big disagreement once.
- [17:09]
Anna Cai
Right. It's bickering.
- [17:10]
Mathilde Thomas
That's all.
- [17:10]
Bertrand Thomas
Married couples, why so? No, as I told you, I decide as far as product launching, product development, research and development. And he decides for everything that is the field, the finance, the strategy of the company. So we respect the other for that. But there was no major agreement yet not good.
- [17:37]
Anna Cai
Was there something he just on a minor level, like he didn't agree with some packaging or was there something like that? You were like, no, I really think that this should be the way this looks. And he was like, no, I don't. And then it worked out and you were like, ha. Told you because women are always right that this one. Okay.
- [17:56]
Bertrand Thomas
This beauty elixir is a strange product. You can see that you have essential oil floating at the surface. You have to shake it. It has a very strong scent. So when I told him I'm going to launch that, he had no idea what I was talking about. He was a bit clueless. He didn't like the scent of it. He didn't understand the set makeup prep makeup glow, minimize the pores. So he was not happy about it.
- [18:25]
Anna Cai
This is one of your best sellers. I know this is so viral but.
- [18:29]
Bertrand Thomas
That was back in 1996. It was not the bestseller at the time and he was very worried by this strange. It's a strange unique product.
- [18:39]
Anna Cai
It is. There's nothing like it, which I love and that's why people love it. It's so unique.
- [18:44]
Mathilde Thomas
When it comes to grocery shopping and meal planning, I've got this problem. I never have enough time for it. Between traveling for work, making sure my dog is living her best freeloader life, and prepping to move into our forever home, going to the grocery store gets pushed way down on my list of to dos. But that all changed thanks to hungryroot. It's the easiest way to eat healthy. Hungryroot is the answer to a crazed biddy's prayers because they take care of my weekly grocery shopping by recommending meals and groceries to buy tailored to my tastes. It's like having a personal shopper and nutritionist in one easy to use service. Now, when 4pm hits on a Tuesday, I'm not stressing about how to make sure I don't end up eating takeout again. Because hungryroot makes it easy to eat high quality, nutritious and delicious meals that meet my anti inflammatory and high protein diet goals. I just tell them about my goals and preferences and they fill my virtual grocery cart with personalized recommendations that get smarter each time they learn about what I loved and didn't love. There's no artificial sweeteners, high fructose corn syrup or preservatives in any of their food. And the best part, all of their 15,000 recipes can be made in 15 minutes or less.
- [19:55]
Anna Cai
You're going to love Hungry Root as.
- [19:57]
Mathilde Thomas
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- [20:43]
Anna Cai
That could help pay off some expenses.
- [20:45]
Mathilde Thomas
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- [21:21]
Anna Cai
And that's my grocery store.
- [21:23]
Mathilde Thomas
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- [21:49]
Bertrand Thomas
If I had done market study on that product, I would never have launched this product because it's very strange.
- [21:55]
Anna Cai
You're blowing my mind right now. That's amazing. Don't listen to the experts. Just trust your gut. I mean, that's how you've sort of lived your whole life.
- [22:01]
Bertrand Thomas
But it helped me because now Bertrand trusts me. When I want to launch a product.
- [22:05]
Anna Cai
You just point to the beauty elixir and you just say. You don't even have to say shut up anymore. Just be like, that's amazing. So building a business usually requires some pretty lean days in the beginning, before anyone's making any money. How did you and Bertrand handle your finances in the beginning of your marriage and your business?
- [22:25]
Bertrand Thomas
First, we were super young, so we didn't need much. We were living in my parents apartment in Paris. I remember his grandparents were giving Bertrand's money because we had no money. And we made sure that we were not losing money. The first two years of Caudalie, we were not making money, but we were not losing money.
- [22:45]
Anna Cai
So you were breaking even for two years?
- [22:47]
Bertrand Thomas
No, we were breaking even after year two, but we were not losing too much money. Sorry, sorry, sorry.
- [22:53]
Anna Cai
You were losing money for two years? Not a ton, but you were losing money. And then you broke even after two years?
- [22:58]
Bertrand Thomas
Yes.
- [22:59]
Anna Cai
I just want to sit on that point for a while because so many people quit because it's not happening right away. It took you two years just to break even. So for anybody who wants to start a business, think about that. Like you just believed in this business so much that you were like, we're not going to make any money, we're going to lose money for two years. And then two years you finally broke even, but you're still not profitable.
- [23:23]
Bertrand Thomas
No, it took us 30 years, Anna. It's long. It's a long process. It's true that when you start a business, you have to be patient. You shouldn't spend too much money because it's hard to make money selling skincare that costs 30 bucks a piece. It's not easy. And you should always go on the field and make sure that you know how to sell your product and you really keep your feet on the ground. It's very important.
- [23:53]
Anna Cai
And it's so interesting because you are now at a point where you could be very hands off, but you are still very hands on. Your team's very small, which you wouldn't think, given the recognition and the mass appeal of Caudalie, you would think, oh, they're owned by somebody at this point. But you are still privately owned.
- [24:11]
Bertrand Thomas
We're privately owned. Belongs to my husband and I. 50. 50. So that's a way of getting along also.
- [24:19]
Anna Cai
That's the way of keeping the marriage intact, no?
- [24:22]
Bertrand Thomas
Maybe it's true that we fight more about the kids than about the company now.
- [24:27]
Anna Cai
Interesting kids.
- [24:29]
Bertrand Thomas
It's complicated.
- [24:31]
Anna Cai
Why is it complicated? What are the big disagreements about your children?
- [24:35]
Bertrand Thomas
Because the mother, they spoil the kids too much. More than the father, always.
- [24:39]
Anna Cai
Okay, so you're the good cop, he's the bad cop. Because there's always one. I think when we have kids, I'm Going to be the disciplinarian, and my husband's going to be the softy. Because I see that we have a dog right now, and I'm the one that keeps her. She listens to me. She knows when I tell her to sit, she sits. When my husband tells her to sit, she's like, whatever, dad, you don't care. So there's always one. So in your partnership, if they want something, they go to mom first. They don't go to dad first, they.
- [25:11]
Bertrand Thomas
Go to mom first. Of course. And it's very important that both parents agree on the dog, on the kids, on whatever. And we are strong against this team.
- [25:22]
Anna Cai
So you have three children and two of which are daughters, right?
- [25:24]
Bertrand Thomas
Yes.
- [25:25]
Anna Cai
What advice do you have for them as they are now in dating age, approaching dating age, what's your advice on how to handle this? Pretty volatile part of their life. And things are very different now for people dating than they were for you 30 years ago. I mean, 30 years ago, the way you met was kind of the only way you could meet. Maybe not necessarily on a motorbike, but in person and who you're in your social circle with.
- [25:53]
Bertrand Thomas
True. Now you have dating apps.
- [25:55]
Anna Cai
Yes.
- [25:56]
Bertrand Thomas
Very different. So my daughters, one of them has a boyfriend and it's kind of serious, so we'll see. She met him at school, so maybe we're putting in indirect pressure on them. Having met so early with my husband, I tell them that they should be independent. That's very important, that they should be passionate about what they do in life, and then that the person they are going to meet is extremely important. It's their life partner. And it should be someone that really makes the best out of them and support them and is someone that is just a great person, that is balanced, that's. Well, in his head, super important.
- [26:41]
Anna Cai
Well, in his head. Oh, my gosh. I feel like all of us are unwell in the head right now. Do you think so your children are still young and one of your daughters has a boyfriend, but do you think you'd be the type of parent where if one of your kids was dating somebody that you did not think was treating them well or you didn't like, Would you say something? Because here's what my parents did when I was in my twenties.
- [27:03]
Bertrand Thomas
Tough question.
- [27:04]
Anna Cai
I dated a lot of people that were not great to me. Right. And my parents never really cared about much other than the fact that they just wanted to make sure that it was the person was good to me and a supportive partner and everything. But they never said anything while I was with them. It was only after I broke up with my exes would they be like, yeah, we never liked him anyways, and this is why we didn't like him. And they would come up with all these details about stuff they had said, but they never said it to me at the time because they said, we never wanted to influence you. So what do you think you would do if one of your children was dating somebody that you were like, this is horrible. Would you say something?
- [27:41]
Bertrand Thomas
Plus, I don't think you would have listened to your parents anyway.
- [27:44]
Anna Cai
That is so true.
- [27:46]
Bertrand Thomas
So it's a very tough question.
- [27:49]
Anna Cai
Yeah.
- [27:49]
Bertrand Thomas
I think they would see that we don't like the person they would see, because I'm sure you could see at the time that they were not huge fan of your boyfriend. Yeah, I don't think I would say blankly directly to their face. They wouldn't listen anyway.
- [28:07]
Anna Cai
What about Bertrand? Because he's a little bit more strict and more of a disciplinarian. Do you think he would especially. He's the dad of two daughters. And I'm sure to an extent it's like he probably feels very protective over them. If they brought a guy in and he was like, no. What would he do, do you think? Have you talked about that?
- [28:26]
Bertrand Thomas
Of course. Right now he loves the boyfriend. So. So far, so good.
- [28:31]
Anna Cai
Good on the record. Don't screw that up. All right.
- [28:35]
Bertrand Thomas
None of it. In the past, there have been some questionable boyfriends. What did he do? He did nothing. No, it broke out naturally.
- [28:46]
Anna Cai
Okay.
- [28:47]
Bertrand Thomas
It didn't work out.
- [28:48]
Anna Cai
Okay. So you were all grateful for that. And I think, too, if you raised your children with the right values and the same principles that you guys live by, eventually they end up picking people that will fit into your family. Chinese people have this phrase, and it doesn't translate very beautifully into English, as most translations don't. But it's not part of. If you and a person are not part of the same family, like fate, you will not walk through the same door together. It's only the people that are meant to walk through the same door together will you walk through together. And that's what I feel like with my husband, because I'm the daughter of immigrants. And despite the fact that I was born and raised in the US I am very Chinese in a lot of my values, because I was raised by Chinese immigrants. And I think for a long time in my 20s, it didn't work out with a lot of men because they were too American in culture. And Chinese culture is Just different than American culture. And it's not to say either one is wrong or right. It's just very different. And my husband, we always joke, he's like a hard boiled egg. White on the outside, yellow on the inside. He's so culturally Chinese with so many things that it could have only worked out with him. And he fits in so well with my family, you know Covid how we were all quarantined for four months. We were living in New York at the time in a tiny one bedroom apartment. And I knew about COVID in January before anybody else did because my family's in China. And they were like, this is going to be really bad. So I told my then boyfriend at the time, I said, we need to go back to Pennsylvania to my parents house in what you would call the countryside, what we would call the suburbs. I was like, we're gonna go and move in with them for a couple months. And he was like, that's crazy. I can't leave work for a couple months. I can't work from home. And we did March 14, when the city shut down, we left and he lived with my parents in their house for four months full time. And it was great. And it people are always like, oh my God, how could you live with your in laws for that long? Was it crazy? It wasn't. They're great and they're super relaxed and they stay out of our way and we stay out of theirs and we're together when we want to be. And I don't think that could have worked out with anybody else. I mean, think about living with your in laws in the Same house for four months in your 30s.
- [31:06]
Bertrand Thomas
Very impressed.
- [31:08]
Anna Cai
I know, it's like. And it was actually so great because he got to know them on a level that I don't think would have happened if he didn't have that because there is that cultural barrier. So you're not going to probably get to know each other in the same way over a dinner as you would, as if everybody was the same culture and everybody's first language was English. Right. So it was actually great. But thinking about it now, I'm like, I could have only married him. And I'm sure your children will end up with men and women who just feel like they were destined to be in your family.
- [31:43]
Bertrand Thomas
No, you're right. You know that we lived in China, we lived in New York, and we lived in Hong Kong. Hong Kong with my family.
- [31:48]
Anna Cai
I remember you lived in Hong Kong.
- [31:50]
Bertrand Thomas
Right. So I completely understand what you say about feeling too Chinese and dating two American guys.
- [31:56]
Anna Cai
Yeah.
- [31:57]
Bertrand Thomas
And yes, I'm afraid, because my. My daughter, number three, she wants to study in the US And I'm wondering, if she marries an American, is it going to work? We're French. It's different culture. She'll need an American who has a passport, who has been traveling, who wants to learn French.
- [32:15]
Anna Cai
It's scary, I know, because culture and you don't think about it when you're young. When I was in my early 20s, I was like, I'm American. I was born and raised here. I mean, what do you mean, cultural differences? And as you get older, you realize that if you have immigrant parents or any sort of different culture, it is so different. And you know, with French culture, Chinese culture, there's a lot, especially you guys. We are so rooted in the family. We don't operate as a solo person. I think in general, the people that I was dating prior to my husband, they were almost independent to a fault. You wanna be independent, but also, at the end of the day, you have to realize your family is the most important thing. And everything I do is like, with my family, we came here together, you know, I would go to work with my mom as a kid because she couldn't afford a babysitter. So I would go with her when she watched other kids. And we just. We just did everything together. And so now we're still that family unit. And I think that was hard for a lot of my exes to understand because they're like, you're an adult. Why do you want to see your parents this much? Like, why are you asking their opinion on all these things? Who cares, right? Like, I call my parents once a month and we check in, and it's almost like a friendship at that point. So I completely understand. But maybe your daughter will meet somebody who is French on the inside, an American on the outside.
- [33:41]
Bertrand Thomas
I need that. That's important for me.
- [33:43]
Mathilde Thomas
But especially.
- [33:44]
Anna Cai
Cause she wants to go to school in New York. Do we know?
- [33:47]
Bertrand Thomas
I don't know. There's plenty of school on the East Coast. We'll see.
- [33:51]
Anna Cai
It's somewhere easy to. I would say if she ends up going to a school in New York, it is a very diverse and metropolitan city. She will meet somebody and, you know, I think she'll figure it out because she'll figure out who she is at the end of the day. And she's probably more French than she thinks she is right now. Right?
- [34:10]
Bertrand Thomas
She is French.
- [34:12]
Mathilde Thomas
So a few years ago, Dave and I left a decade of living in New York City to move to Connecticut. And as such, we had to change all of our doctors, start over from scratch. And being the hypochondriac that I am, I knew I had to find a few critical doctors right away, like a primary care physician and a dentist and a dermatologist and a gynecologist for all of my annual health checkups. So I turned to Zocdoc because I'd used it before in the city to find some of my best physicians and I was using it again to start all over. Zocdoc made it so easy for me to find doctors that were not only accepting new patients, but also within my network. And this year I was reminded again how great ZocDoc was. Because I was sitting at my desk one night and I felt my upper arm and there was a lump in my upper arm. And guys, if you feel a lump anywhere on your body, I don't care if you think you know what it's from, go get it checked out. I turned to Zocdoc and looked for the first availability that a general surgeon in my area had who didn't need a referral and was accepting new patients and was seen the next day. Thankfully, the lump in my arm was much ado about nothing, but thanks to ZocDoc, I was able to assuage my fears the next day. ZocDoc is a free app and website where you can search and compare high quality in network doctors and click to instantly book an appointment. I use ZocDoc to find the best physicians in my area for my needs and you should too, because finding the best care should not be difficult. Stop putting off those doctors appointments and go to zocdoc.comannakai to find and instantly book a top rated doctor today. That's z o c-o c.com annakai zocdoc.com annakai While some people like to unwind at the end of the night to their favorite Netflix show, I like to unwind by opening my favorite app, the Redfin app. Because for the last year and a half, Dave and I have been searching high and low in this crazy real estate market for our forever home. And I am so happy to report that we found it finally via Redfin. We'll be moving in a few short weeks and it's all thanks to my love affair with Redfin and their easy to use Apple. The first step in finding our forever home was using Redfin's Open House search feature that lists all the open houses in our area for the Upcoming weekend, we walked into this house's open house, and voila, made an offer. And here we are. So whether you're looking to buy or rent your next place, you need the Redfin app. Redfin makes it fun to search all the homes and apartments in your neighborhood. And if you find a place you love, Redfin makes it easy to go see it in person. Just schedule a tour right from the app. Plus, if you're looking to sell, Redfin agents know how to get you the best price possible. Because they close twice as many deals as other agents. And with a listing fee as low as 1%, Redfin's fees are half of what others often charge. So whether you're looking to buy, rent, or sell, download the Redfin app to get started.
- [37:14]
Anna Cai
So your Vino Perfect serum. Can you hold that up? This is my favorite product in the whole world. I go through so many bottles of this. It's to correct dark spots. And it's a viral favorite. I mean, it's so good. And you launched the product, I believe, in 2005. Correct.
- [37:33]
Bertrand Thomas
It's gonna be 20th anniversary next year.
- [37:37]
Anna Cai
Exactly. No one bought it at first, you said, because nobody was talking about dark spots. In 2005, it was all about tanning, looking darker, and it wasn't profitable for a long time. So how did you maintain your belief in that product? How did you know, I need to keep making this even though it's not making me any money?
- [37:55]
Bertrand Thomas
It was complicated. We discovered this molecule because it was an ancient tradition. When people are pruning the vine, the vine is leaking SAP, and women working in the vineyard would rub the SAP on their face to erase the freckles. So it really was working on brightening the skin complexion on evening the skin complexion. So this is how we isolated this new molecule that we were the first one to use in the beauty industry. But then the anti dark spot category was not even existing in Europe at the time, only in Asia. People were caring about. They were calling it whitening product at the time. And in the US nobody cared at the time. So I told my sales team, okay, I have this product. It works extremely well. It's 62 times more effective than vitamin C to brighten all kind of dark spots. And they didn't know what to do with it, so they scratched their head because the sales rep are very creative, and they say, okay, we're going. People like to tan in Europe. It's going to be the serum of the summer. You're going to put that underneath your sunscreen so you'll have a beautiful suntan with no dark spots. So that was their first creative idea, and it still is the serum of the summer. And then they said a lot of French women smoke too much, so they have a gray complexion. And we noticed that this was giving a pinkish, Pinky. More pink complexion. So that was the second way of selling it.
- [39:26]
Mathilde Thomas
Interesting.
- [39:26]
Anna Cai
I did notice, by the way, when I went to Paris that a lot of French women smoke. I know. I was shocked because people don't really smoke anymore in the U.S. no, it's over. I know. It's, like, so over.
- [39:39]
Mathilde Thomas
And when I went, I was just.
- [39:41]
Anna Cai
In Paris again a couple months ago. I was like, oh, my God. The amount of people who smoke is wild. But then you think about. France is one of the skincare capitals of the world. So I don't know how that goes hand in hand. Like, how do you have a nation where all the women have such great skin and are so focused on skincare, but then they also smoke.
- [40:01]
Bertrand Thomas
Well, they smoke. I mean, French girls smoke too much to skip dessert or to be skinny. That's not good. We don't want that. But that's why they were using this product to have a. A nice complexion. So it became. I remember we launched it in 2005, and the category started in 2008. So we invented this anti dark spot category in the market in Europe.
- [40:24]
Anna Cai
That's wild. And I think this story is inspirational on so many levels because it shows us all how sometimes it's not necessarily that we have a bad idea. It's just that the timing of the idea is not right. Because if you had taken this to market and for the first three years it didn't really sell, you would have been like, okay, well, that's not a good product. We're just gonna stop making it. Right. And it's one of your best sellers now.
- [40:51]
Bertrand Thomas
We knew it was a great product, so it was doing immediately well in Asia.
- [40:56]
Anna Cai
Right.
- [40:57]
Bertrand Thomas
And in the America and in Europe, nobody really cared. So it's really the sales rep who helped me making it the Summer Serum.
- [41:06]
Anna Cai
Summer Serum. That's a really clever way of marketing it in the sense that it's not like. Like, oh, you know, people don't want it look lighter in the summer. They want to look darker. But it's like, oh, hey, you want to look darker, but you also want to look even. So that was a great way.
- [41:21]
Bertrand Thomas
That was smart.
- [41:22]
Anna Cai
That was very smart. So that's. When did it start to take off in America and in Europe?
- [41:29]
Bertrand Thomas
It's Quite recent. We soon became number one of the category because there was nobody else. But then in the US we've been successful, I would say maybe for the past eight years on this serum.
- [41:43]
Anna Cai
Okay.
- [41:44]
Bertrand Thomas
And now it's the anti dark spot authority because it's funny because at one point in the Sephora, it was doing well on the Gen Z because of acne scar.
- [41:56]
Anna Cai
Yes, hyperpigmentation.
- [41:58]
Bertrand Thomas
Exactly. Hyperpigmentation. In Europe it was because of sunspots. In Asia it was because it was evening the. So it was for different reason that it was doing well. And dark spots have become a big topic in the past 10 years.
- [42:16]
Anna Cai
It is now, it is one of the major concerns of a lot of people with skin issues. And for me too, especially Asian women, I have a lot of hyperpigmentation whenever I have acne scars, hormonal scars. So that's always been an issue for me. It's just we never had a way to solve it. So I just wore more makeup.
- [42:33]
Bertrand Thomas
But I mean, this one is unbelievable because it's sun safe, pregnancy safe. It works on melasma, it works on every single dark spot.
- [42:41]
Anna Cai
So what advice do you have for women who are maybe in that position that you were in when you first launched VinoPerfect and it's not selling and it's not working and they're trying to figure out if they should continue on with an idea that they feel very passionate about, but maybe the world doesn't see it yet. How do you maintain that faith within yourself?
- [43:02]
Bertrand Thomas
First, you need to be sure that the product is exceptional, it works. It's a skin problem solver. Then you need to pivot. We all learn how to pivot during COVID in a way or another. And we learn how to pivot with this one saying, hey, it's there. Put it underneath your sunscreen. You'll have a beautiful suntan with no brown spot. So be creative, but hang on to it. If you know you have something special, unique.
- [43:29]
Anna Cai
And you really knew because you almost had a test market in Asia first because you were like, this is selling so well in Asia. We know it's a good product. It's just people need to almost be educated on the fact that it's a good product in the US and in Europe.
- [43:43]
Bertrand Thomas
And we tested it versus vitamin C, who is the gold standard in brightening. And we were 62 times more effective with no side effect. So we knew we had something.
- [43:54]
Anna Cai
And it lasts forever too. It's a tiny bottle and it's the amount of, I mean, I go through it like for, you know, in 25 seconds. And what's great is that your team always sends me a bottle as soon as I run out. I don't know how they know. It's a little bit creepy, but I feel like every time I run out of one, there's one in the mail, usually with my name on it. And I'm like, are you in my house right now? I don't hate it. What are some products that have failed in development? Have there been any products that you have worked on for a long time that you were like so sure about and then you just realized this is just not going to work out?
- [44:37]
Bertrand Thomas
When we launched our first sunscreen in Europe, we had a great technology. We could encapsulate the filters in like mini glass balls. So it was perfect because you don't want the filter that are chemical to penetrate within the skin. We wanted it to be super clean to stay at the surface so they can protect you. Versus uva, uvb. The idea was wonderful. But when we released the product on the market, everybody was peeling.
- [45:07]
Grainger Ad
Oh, God.
- [45:08]
Bertrand Thomas
It was rubbing off your face. It was a.
- [45:10]
Anna Cai
Was it pilling and everything? Like kind of, yeah.
- [45:13]
Bertrand Thomas
Rubbing off the cream would not stay at the surface of the skin. It was this technology never, never worked out at the end. So we found another one that is really good. And now we are very clean for skin and very clean for the planet, but.
- [45:27]
Anna Cai
And it stays on faster. Sunscreens are tough because I try a lot of sunscreens and there are some that I'm sent that for some reason they don't mix well with my makeup. And maybe if it's just the sunscreen on, it's fine. But then as soon as I put on any bronzer or anything, it starts to interact with the sunscreen. So. And, and yeah, that's really tough because you also, you can't predict what other people are going to put on top of the sunscreen. So you have to really formulate something that works for every product out there.
- [45:59]
Bertrand Thomas
Sunscreen is complicated. It has to be FDA approved. But now we have a fantastic sunscreen. 100% mineral, really good, that mattifies the skin. Perfect makeup base. It's great.
- [46:11]
Anna Cai
It is wonderful. I can attest to that. If we could only pick four Caudalie products to use in a skincare routine, which ones would they be? Because here's the thing. I love my 20 step skincare routine. But let's be real, not all of us have time for that every night. Even me. You know, even somebody who pretty Much does this for a living. And I try products for a living. There are some nights where I'm like, I can pick one serum and a cream and I need to go to bed.
- [46:39]
Bertrand Thomas
I agree. At night we don't have time. So I would pick only one cleanser. It would be this one. It's the cleansing oil, 100% natural. Love this product. And it removes every single makeup, even the waterproof. And it has castor oil that make your lashes and eyebrow grow. And it smells. Almond oil. It's beautiful. So you put it on a dry skin, then you activate it with water, and you rinse it with a lot of water.
- [47:06]
Anna Cai
This is my. I have a travel size of this, which, by the way, I may need a refill on Christern.
- [47:14]
Bertrand Thomas
You know what? Take this one and you unscrew it and you refill the little one.
- [47:18]
Anna Cai
Oh, you're right. But I like it when it comes in the bottle. I'm just like.
- [47:22]
Mathilde Thomas
It's also just easier for me to.
- [47:24]
Anna Cai
Recognize because now I recognize this mini bottle in my bag. But this and then the foaming cleanser, those are my two cleansers that I bring with me to travel. They're so great. The sizes are amazing. Thank you for making a travel size, because I. It always kills me when I have a product that I love and I can't bring it with me because it's just. You can't bring it on your check or carry on luggage. So this is very good. Okay. So you clean at night.
- [47:49]
Bertrand Thomas
Then you prep your skin with my favorite beauty elixir that you shake. And it's going to minimize your pore to smooth your feeders. I use it like a toner.
- [47:58]
Anna Cai
I love that.
- [47:59]
Bertrand Thomas
Step number two, then you have to put a serum. And this one is the most popular caudalie serum. The one that brightens, lightens, evens the complexion. Love it. Don't forget your neck and decollete. Like your French face.
- [48:15]
Anna Cai
I always. Your French face is that I always forget the.
- [48:20]
Bertrand Thomas
And the back of your hand.
- [48:21]
Anna Cai
Yes, I forget that too. I remember the neck, but I forget that this part too. And the hands. Okay.
- [48:28]
Bertrand Thomas
And Premier Cru. La Creme riche would be the moisturizer I would bring on a deserted island. Because it's all in one one and done. It works with all the caudalie technology, the Harvard patent, the anti dark spot patent, the antioxidant. It's all in one. So I love it. And then eye contour is important. And this one I love because you can massage it. It's cold. It's going to decongest. And also for the daytime, it has 10% makeup, so it enhances the eye contour.
- [49:02]
Anna Cai
Interesting. I knew my eyes looked better after trying it, but I just assumed it was because I felt better. I didn't realize that's why it feels like it's a little brighter or something. It is. I always thought it was just in my mind because sometimes you're like, oh, I put on eye cream. Oh, interesting.
- [49:17]
Bertrand Thomas
Now you can see it with the light. And this one has ingredient that are anti puffiness, but also anti dark circles. So same. It does it all. So those will be my.
- [49:27]
Anna Cai
That's simple. That's two of that is doable.
- [49:30]
Bertrand Thomas
That's one minute.
- [49:34]
Anna Cai
In a very American work hard, play hard culture. I know it's very difficult for women to find balance. You know, when it feels like everything needs to be a thousand percent. Your Family needs you 1000%. Your job needs you 1000%. What gives on the days when you just can't be everywhere at once? How do you manage that? Because you do have to make sacrifices on both ends first.
- [49:59]
Bertrand Thomas
I think American women put so much pressure on themselves. You want to be so perfect, not just relax. You're already fantastic as you are. Guys, it's a question of balance. You cannot go full way. In a way, you have to balance your work life, your love life, your family life, your personal life. And it's a question of agenda and organization. So make sure that you keep time for yourself. Make sure that you keep time for your loved one, you keep time for your family, and that you have a job that you are passionate about and that you love.
- [50:44]
Anna Cai
What do you do for yourself these days? Because I think so many women have time for their jobs, they have time for their families, but they don't have time for themselves outside of those two arenas. So what do you do now? I mean, it could be simple.
- [51:00]
Bertrand Thomas
Like, I do a lot of sport. I do yoga. I swim whenever I can. I bike all the time. I read a lot. I watch series. Simple things.
- [51:12]
Mathilde Thomas
You make time for yourself.
- [51:13]
Anna Cai
That's great.
- [51:14]
Bertrand Thomas
It's important.
- [51:15]
Anna Cai
I mean, one of my favorite things you've ever said in an interview was, you do not have to suffer to be beautiful. And this is a great story because I was like, I just need to be more French. Like, I don't need to be American. I just need to be French. Because you have it figured out, because you said that the first time you ever saw somebody eating a protein bar for lunch was when you first Came to the US and you were saying, that's crazy. Like the French would never think about doing that. Like these women were eating protein bars and that's it at lunch to try and stay thin. And your whole argument, correct me if I'm wrong here, was that you can enjoy yourself while also being beautiful. You can eat good food and enjoy your food, but also not gain a thousand pounds. How do we do that? How do we enjoy our lives but also try to maintain our weight and maintain enough energy? Or is it just the food here? Because the food is better in France.
- [52:10]
Bertrand Thomas
The food is better in France, the food is better in China, the food.
- [52:14]
Anna Cai
Is less genetically modified, complicated in the.
- [52:17]
Bertrand Thomas
US So that's why we started when we were living here. We started to cook with my husband because we were so disappointed in every way. Yeah, the protein bar, I was shocked. We would never do that in France. First you sit down for lunch, you sit down for dinner with your family or with your friends. It's a moment of, of sharing. And you have to be conscious about what you're eating. If you're eating a protein bar, you will forget it and then you'll be hungry again like 10 minutes after. So no, it's important to enjoy life.
- [52:54]
Anna Cai
What's a normal French lunch.
- [53:00]
Bertrand Thomas
Just like here? Probably vegetables. Chicken or protein. But cooked in a good way, right?
- [53:07]
Anna Cai
People ask me, what was your favorite thing that you ate on that caudalie trip?
- [53:12]
Bertrand Thomas
I know, tell me.
- [53:13]
Anna Cai
And my favorite thing actually were the strawberries you guys left in our room when we first arrived. I have never tasted a strawberry that sweet before. Also, it was tiny. I'd never seen a strawberry that small because it hasn't been genetically modified to be a freakazoid of strawberries. But my mind was blown. I called my husband. I was like, this strawberry makes me want to. To cry. And everything else was so delicious. I mean, you guys really treated us so well. You took us to that Michelin starred restaurant on your property. But I just couldn't get over this strawberry.
- [53:49]
Bertrand Thomas
They were probably strawberry from the garden.
- [53:52]
Anna Cai
Yes, I'm sure they were.
- [53:53]
Bertrand Thomas
That makes a big difference.
- [53:54]
Anna Cai
It was so sweet. And I've never, I mean, I was like, do I really have to go back to the US and buy strawberries there? I didn't know fruit could taste that sweet. And so it's so interesting because it just goes to show how much crap is in our food here.
- [54:13]
Bertrand Thomas
It takes us a lot of time with my husband to figure out where to buy the best fruits, the best vegetables here in New York, but also in France. You have good things, but you just need to know where to source them.
- [54:27]
Anna Cai
Right? You have to do a little bit more work. So my last question is, you have obviously built such a beautiful life and career and from the outside, everyone's looking at you. It's like I would want to be Mathilde, right? But I'm sure you've had many moments of doubt, many moments of questioning. What is the piece of advice that you have to women that got you through your darkest days with Caudalie? Maybe you were not in a great place with Bertrand. What did you tell yourself?
- [55:01]
Bertrand Thomas
If you strongly believe that you have revolutionary products, which I thought I had at the time, you should never let go. And it's very important. You're going to climb the Mount Everest. You look once at the summit, but then you have to look at Camp Base 1, Camp Base 2. Don't look too high. When you're going up the mountain, it's very important that you cut the mountain into. You break it into pieces that are achievable. Otherwise it's going to be too hard and you're going to let go.
- [55:40]
Anna Cai
That's beautiful. I love that metaphor. That is the most inspirational note to end on. Thank you so much for being here. Can you tell everybody where they can find you?
- [55:50]
Bertrand Thomas
Oh, thank you. Well, they can follow me on my personal Instagram matilthomas on my LinkedIn. But if you want to see what the team is doing, Kodali us is the best on Insta.
- [56:02]
Anna Cai
Amen. I'll second that. Thank you again.
- [56:05]
Bertrand Thomas
Thank you so much. Ana.
- [56:06]
Grainger Ad
If you're a facilities manager at a university, you know students rely on the cafeteria for breakfast, lunch, dinner and the occasional late night snack. So when a dishwasher breaks down and dirty plates pile up, the mess hall can turn messy in the blink of an eye. Enter Grainger. With over a million industrial grade products and fast delivery, the product you need now is never far away. So you can turn that dishwasher back into a lean, clean washing machine. Call clickranger.com or just stop by Ranger for the ones who get it done.