Does Josh Allen need to change for Buffalo Bills to succeed?

Summary

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Buffalo Plus Podcast: "Does Josh Allen Need to Change for Buffalo Bills to Succeed?"

Date: September 15, 2023
Hosts: Mike Catalana, Jenna Cottrell, Dan Fetes

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Overview

This episode dives deep into the Buffalo Bills’ troubling Monday night loss to the New York Jets, focusing on Josh Allen’s four-turnover performance. The team debates whether Allen needs to fundamentally change his style for the Bills to succeed, who (or what) is responsible for the ongoing issues, and whether adjustments from coaching or a supporting cast can drive needed improvement. With the Raiders game looming, the panel also discusses Ken Dorsey's offensive approach and what needs to happen going forward.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Overreaction vs. Real Issues (00:50–01:43)

• Mike urges against overreacting to a single game but notes that Allen’s mistakes are becoming too frequent to ignore.
  • “You can't overreact to week one... But on Monday night, a lot more was on Josh than I've seen in the past... I think it's a bit of a tipping point for him.” (01:15–01:43)

2. The Allen Problem: Recklessness or Wiring? (01:43–05:36)

• Dan points out Allen’s “arm arrogance”—the very trait that fuels both his best and worst plays.
  • Allen himself described it as a "double-edged sword": “What makes Josh great also makes Josh Monday night... it's year six. I know these things, I have to be able to do them now.” (02:35–03:25)
• Jenna agrees the recklessness isn’t new, and “what once felt risky is now just reckless.” (04:41–05:36)

3. Coaching, Growth, and Accountability (05:36–09:07)

• Is this a coaching problem or entirely on Allen?
  • Mike: “You gotta understand circumstances. You have to understand the game… That’s not coaching. That is the guy being aware of circumstances.” (06:29–07:39)
  • Jenna: “That’s absolving Josh from the fact that he’s a grown man and has been in this league for so long.” (07:56–08:12)

4. Will Allen Ever Really Change? (09:07–15:56)

• The group is divided on Allen’s ability to evolve.
  • Mike believes this game hit Allen harder, possibly spurring change.
  • Dan argues these games aren’t new; Allen has “lived and died” playing this way throughout his career.
    • “This is who Josh Allen is, guys.” (12:25–12:28)
    • “What makes him a star makes him the butt of a lot of jokes at the same time… We have seen this before.” (19:09–20:07)
• Jenna offers cautious optimism: maybe it takes hitting rock bottom for change to click. (16:07–16:59)

5. How Bad Was Monday Night? (17:29–19:09)

• Mike: “I think you could make an argument that was probably the worst game he’s played in the NFL.” (18:29–18:38)
• Dan: “But Josh said it best. It’s the double-edged sword... When he's bad, he's really, really bad.” (15:08–15:56)

6. Role of Coaching Staff & Organizational Change (24:04–25:18)

• Dan: “Josh can evolve, but he needs to have real change around him… drastic change if things don't get better and get better quickly.” (24:07–25:18)
• Mike: “In the pecking order of this franchise, it's Josh Allen above Brandon Bean, Sean McDermott, Ken Dorsey, everybody... At some point, Josh is going to be the last man standing in this organization.” (25:18–25:54)

7. Offensive Structure & Ken Dorsey’s Role (28:13–35:19)

• The crew discusses new personnel groupings (12 personnel, Dalton Kincaid) and the early signs from Ken Dorsey’s play calling:
  • Mike: “I like the 12 personnel. I like Kincaid on the field. I like the pace that they had early… I think Kincaid is going to be a more and more valuable pass catcher in this offense.” (28:48–34:18)
  • Dan: “It is very tough to dink and dunk your way all the way down the field… There needs to be chunk plays.” (32:54–33:56)
  • Jenna still wants a bigger sample size to properly judge Dorsey’s approach. (34:18–34:21)

8. Supporting Cast: Is There Enough? (35:23–37:34)

• Sean McDermott has publicly said they need someone to step up alongside Stefon Diggs. The offense seems “still just reliant on Josh,” which may reinforce Allen’s hero approach. (35:19–36:51)
• Issues with receivers running the wrong routes and lack of a clear “Robin” to Diggs’ “Batman.”

9. Defensive Bright Spots (38:02–40:56)

• Praise for Greg Rousseau, Leonard Floyd, and the defense’s performance.
• Christian Benford and Matt Milano singled out for effort/intangibles.
  • “He talks sometimes, but like, you gotta pull it out.” (39:23–39:28)

10. Raiders Preview & Urgency to Respond (41:04–43:51)

• The Raiders present real threats (top RB, WR, Maxx Crosby). Bills are heavy favorites but the game carries huge pressure.
• Mike: “Bills need to go figure out a way to win the game… It doesn’t have to look pretty.” (41:38–41:45)
• Dan: “If they lose again, we got issues.” (42:43–43:51)
• Jenna: “If they are in a rock fight with the Raiders at home in the opener… that would feel like rock bottom and rock bottom is where changes will happen.” (42:01–43:52)

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Notable Quotes

• “What makes Josh great also makes Josh Monday night is this fact of playing reckless... It's year six. I know these things, I have to be able to do them now.”
  — Dan paraphrasing Allen and his own view, (02:35–03:25)

• “There are times. Look at the Minnesota game last year… It was stupid, but it worked. He's got to be better than that.”
  — Mike (06:43–07:39)

• “Do men change? This is—this is the podcast.”
  — Jenna (08:11–08:12)

• “This is who Josh Allen is, guys.”
  — Dan (12:24–12:28)

• “I think you could make an argument that was probably the worst game he's played in the NFL.”
  — Mike (18:29–18:38)

• “Josh can evolve, but he needs to have real change around him.”
  — Dan (24:07–25:18)

• “At the certain point… the ball's in Josh's hands… it's Josh's call.”
  — Mike (25:54–26:10)

• “For this team to be good, Josh needs to change. He needs to adapt… this team needs for it to click.”
  — Jenna (15:56–16:48)

• “The sky isn't falling but a loss and you should grab an umbrella.”
  — Quoting Matt Bové, via Dan (42:16–42:43)

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Timestamps for Important Segments

• 00:50 – Setting the mood: Is Week 1 a fluke or a red flag?
• 02:35–03:25 – “Double-edged sword”/Allen’s arm arrogance.
• 05:36–07:39 – Recklessness vs. awareness and the coaching dilemma.
• 12:24–15:56 – Debate: Will Allen ever really change his approach?
• 17:36–18:38 – Was this Allen’s worst NFL game?
• 24:04–25:18 – Can Allen evolve without organizational change?
• 28:48–34:18 – Reviewing Ken Dorsey’s offense and 12 personnel.
• 35:23–37:34 – Supporting cast woes; need for a true #2 option.
• 38:02–40:56 – Defensive praise and notable performances.
• 41:04–43:51 – Raiders preview and “must win” pressure.

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Tone & Memorable Moments

• Engaged, passionate, occasionally exasperated—hosts mix sarcasm and genuine concern.
• Jenna plays the optimistic but realistic “counselor,” challenging the group to hope for change but preparing for more of the same.
• Dan offers tough love and skepticism, repeatedly referencing Allen’s history as proof that “this is who he is.”
• Mike balances realism with cautious hope, believing that Monday’s loss may serve as a true wake-up call for Allen.

Memorable lighthearted bits include a closing story about Dan’s daughter using curse words in perfect context—demonstrating how coaching (at home and on the field) can have unpredictable results.

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Conclusion

This episode underscores the tension between Josh Allen’s remarkable talent and his costly habits, asking whether either personal or organizational change can unlock the next level for the Bills. Concern abounds over whether the Bills’ staff and supporting cast can help Allen evolve—or whether fans should brace for another season of “the Josh Allen experience,” full of wild highs and lows.

Discussion Question

Can Josh Allen evolve, or is this just who he is?

Let the debate continue.

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Transcript

[A]

Foreign this is the Buffalo plus podcast.

[B]

Brought to you by Connors and Ferris.

[C]

All right, welcome Back to the Buffalo Plus YouTube channel, presented by Connors and Ferris, Mike Catalana, Dan Fates. I am Jenna Kotril. We're talking to you today, previewing the Raiders game and talking a little bit about what happened on Monday night. Before we get started, please be sure to like, comment and subscribe to the podcast if you enjoy our content. There's a lot to talk about. Gentlemen, Josh Allen, four turnovers on the night he now leads the NFL. It's obviously very early on in the season. Mike, what do you make of Josh and where this team is at?

[A]

So I go back to saying you can't overreact to week one and I'm not going to do that. I am going to say that there's an issue and I hear from people all the time that, that want to dismiss it or want to put blame on any one individual. Dan, we know it. It's not just on Josh, it's not just on Dorsey, it's not just on McDermott. It's not just on the offensive line. Name all those things you want. But on Monday night, a lot more was on Josh than I've seen in the past. And those things have contributed to where he is right now starting this season. And that part has me concerned. I think it's a bit of a tipping point for him. I think he recognized it even more that Monday night was a problem regardless of the way he got there.

[B]

Yeah, I tried to back away from the ledge over these last few days and, and understand that, hey, you know, and try to say, try to comprehend that it is a good jets defense and they are trying to work in some new pieces and all of these things. It's, it's hard for me to swallow that pill knowing that this hasn't just been one game, that this goes back to last year where it just feels like something's off. And we joked around about it after on Monday night saying that the offense looks uncoordinated, like that was kind of the joke. And this is especially after hearing and talking to, to Josh on Wednesday as we record this Thursday morning. There is a disconnect between this. I called it arm arrogance. He calls it a double edged sword that like what makes Josh great also makes Josh Monday night is this fact of playing reckless. And while I've tried to tune out some of the national media, I think Dan Orlovsky did a really good job of explaining it on the K. Adams show of just the fact of like he needs somebody to be able to say like grow up, like figure this out. And even Josh said like the double edged sword, like sometimes I get away with it and it's the greatest play ever and other times it's I don't and sometimes I hurt the team. And he's like, it's year six. I know these things, I have to be able to do them now. That's where I'm that I think that's where I'm most frustrated that he knows better obviously. But when he gets in these phases, there doesn't seem to be anything or person or coordinator or coach that is able to get him out of it. And how much of coaching Jenna is relationships and trust and all of those things. That's where I'm not seeing the old Josh Allen, the fun Josh Allen that we saw dominate and, and take defenses, rip their hearts out. I just haven't seen it.

[C]

I am concerned because those glaring things that we talked about last season are seemingly still the concerns going in. And we joked on the car ride back from Jersey how we woke up the next morning after the game and like we felt worse about where this team was at.

[A]

Yep.

[C]

And now having a couple days to settle in there are just this, we've talked about this how many times. And I think Josh acknowledging the fact that his confidence is a double edged sword is actually an improvement. But there is risk and reward and I feel like Josh is always just mashing the buttons and we've seen that that has led to turnovers and it's okay if you have turnovers and you win the game, but I think Monday night is very telling of when you have turnovers and you lose the game and, and it's because of that recklessness that you are losing the game. Josh feels like he needs to be superman every down. He doesn't. He does need to figure out that balance of being the game manager, of moving the ball down the field and then in certain moments showing his excellence. But so many plays when we were in the press box on Monday night, Mike, we're like, what is he doing? What is he doing trying to get hurdle guys for an extra yards even though he wouldn't have even been close to a first down. Stuff like that, where it's just, it's not risky, it's reckless and that's the line that he needs to figure out and move back.

[A]

Yeah, I agree with you on that. It's not one thing. And Dan, even his mistakes on Monday night, I think they were all a little Bit different. There are times he's trying to fit the ball in with the big arm. There's times, let's also be honest, he's looking for digs. And there is something about him wanting to make sure he's got digs in the offense. And look, that's a smart thing to do. The guy's phenomenal. He was great on Monday. But. And then you're. Jenna, you're right. It's like, hey, look, you're six years in the league. I don't care if it's Brian D. In your ear or Ken dorsey or Shawn McDermott. You gotta understand circumstances. You have to understand the game. Right. And there are times. Look at the Minnesota game last year. Not the fumble at the end. Was it the Minnesota game right before halftime, where they tell him, hey, you know, there's only six seconds left in the quarter. And he runs around or whatever the number was. I think it was the Minnesota game. He throws a touchdown. That is right on point. New England game. I'm sorry, New England. Jenna is right on your point where it works. And Josh says, hey, you know, works. Yes, it does. It was stupid, but it worked. He's got to be better than that. He has played football his whole life. There are certain things to Jenna's point. Third and 16. You're going to run over the linebacker. It puts him at physical risk, puts the ball at risk, Dan, Even on the play where he's in. He. He fumbled it, but it was after they rolled him down. Josh, what are you doing? That's not coaching. That is the guy being aware of circumstances. And let's also be honest, they respect their opponents. It was not Aaron Rodgers on the other side. Okay? Yep. So you got to respect your opponent, but you got to know that team's not putting 35 up on you, and you got to play it differently. And that's the part. I'm not disagreeing with you at all about having somebody in his ear. But I think there's a point in that room with Brady and with DORSEY and with McDermott and maybe even some other coaches where they're like, come on, Josh, you're better than this.

[C]

Also, too, to your point, like, I know what you're saying, Dan, or at least I think I'm. I'm hearing you be like, you know, Dorsey has to find a way to reach him and all these things. Like, Dable had his ear. I also think that's absolving Josh from the fact that he's a grown man and has been in this league for so long. Like, he should also.

[B]

That's what Sean said.

[C]

Yeah. He should also know better at this point. Like, and do men change? This is. This is the podcast.

[B]

Hang on, Mike, one second. Because the fact that what you're saying, too, is that, like, it's not all of one thing. Like, it is asinine to think that Sean McDermott isn't pounding it in Josh's skull. Be smart with the football. You can't turn the ball over. But what is. What did Sean say? He's got to take some ownership. I'm not the one running. I'm not the one throwing the ball. So, like, we can't just be like. As much as I want to blame Dorsey for everything, I can't hear because Josh is being crazy and it's so frustrating. But to some respects, I almost am over getting up, trying to get over getting upset about it, because I don't think it's going to change.

[A]

Oh, I don't. I don't buy that. I don't buy that. I think. I think Monday night, we were all in there. Jenna, I think it hit him harder Monday night than at any point. Josh, you don't agree with me. I'm looking at him going, he takes the blame all the time. He deserves a percentage of it. Usually it's in a game where he didn't make the play at the end or like the Vikings game where he made the stupid fumble at the end. But there was a million plays in that game. He killed them on Monday night. He just did. And he didn't make enough good plays to make up for it. And he's sitting there, Week one, national tv. He's going to get ripped. And look, we know Dorsey, but this is on. This is on Josh Allen, right? I mean, certainly around the country, nobody outside of Western New York is really talking about Ken Dorsey. And even though Dorsey's part of the problem, they're all talking about Josh. And, you know, he hears it, too.

[C]

That's the thing that, to me, is the biggest difference is for so long, when Josh would make a mistake, it was. The response was different on the outside. Like, Josh is always taken ownership when he's played like crap. And he's been. We've seen that throughout his entire time with the Bills in the league. But what's different about this time is now I'm hearing way more negativity, way more criticism, way more blame on Alan from the fans, from national media. Dan, you're shaking your head, but I've had more people come up to me about Josh Allen and being critical of him. Whereas for a long time they would. It was a lot more protecting him. Like, it's all right. He's got all this stuff like that outside noise. I think whether you like it or not is different now. And that finds a way to a player. Like, these guys can say that they're not on social media and they can say all these things, but that's. They are. They hear stuff, they see stuff, all that stuff.

[B]

So my. My reason is. Is Mike saying, like, Monday night was the straw that broke the camel's back for Josh Allen to check.

[A]

Hold on, hold on, hold on. I didn't say anything about straw.

[B]

You said that Monday night was gonna. Sunday night was going to be the moment that. That he.

[A]

At least the recognition. The recognition that it's him.

[B]

Okay, so my. My rebuttal to that is we have seen games like Monday night for the last five years. What. How about this? How about Houston? Wasn't that Monday night?

[A]

Oh, my.

[B]

Very reminiscent.

[A]

You're. Wait a minute.

[B]

Oh, my God.

[A]

Which game are we talking about? You're talking about the playoff game. He was a kid.

[B]

Okay, how about the jets game last year? How. When he said it's tough to win when your quarterback plays? Like, how about when they played New England early on in his career? We are seeing the same Josh Allen that we saw early in his career that we did last night. And guess what? That's what Josh said. Mike. Josh said it. Same shit, same new season.

[C]

Like, different.

[B]

This is who Josh Allen is, guys.

[A]

Now, no, I'm saying to you is he didn't. He had a bad game against the jets last year. Not as bad as this. It wasn't as much on him. It. This one was. And it's. Jenna. It's the first game of the year after an off season of. I'm going to be different. I've recognized it. I'm. I'm telling you, he's got to be sitting there going, that proves my point. Crap. Huh? If you think in that way, then the Bills are in trouble.

[B]

I agree.

[A]

They're in trouble. The.

[B]

The thing is, is, Mike, you were saying, what is Josh Allen doing throwing down the field to Deontay Hardy in double coverage? I was. Weren't we all saying, what is he doing throwing the ball to Pat DeMarco in double cover down the field in Houston?

[A]

He's had thousands of snaps since then.

[B]

And what has changed?

[A]

Yeah, he's become a superstar. He was up and coming talent then. Jenna, come on. Are we really going to compare 2019 to 2023, Josh?

[B]

No, no.

[C]

I guess what I'm trying to understand, or Dan's arg. I don't really understand what I'm saying.

[B]

Is that this is who Josh Allen is. And Jenna, you make the, the thing of like, oh, he's going to change. I talked, I remember in 2019 talking to his Wyoming head coach and being like, what's the best Josh Allen story? And he said that there was a play in training camp that he was supposed to throw the ball to the fullback. Instead he rolled to the right, threw it across his body 60 yards on the dime. And the coach said, great play, Josh, but the play is designed to go to the fullback. And Josh said, no. Coach Brett Favre says touchdowns first. This is who he is wired to be. He is wired to be Superman on every play. And, and I'm starting to believe that you can't coach that out of him. He is who he is. He's going to live and die on every play.

[A]

Timeout. You can't coach it out of him. You just told me that Day Ball had this relationship with him and could change him if Dayball was back. Now, are you saying we'd still get the same Josh?

[B]

Nope.

[A]

Well, then you can coach it out of him.

[B]

That's how I started this whole thing was saying that it's the relationship that he needs. So, like, yeah, like where we are now is what. Is what we're gonna have. I don't think Josh is going to change with what, with what things are happening. I think we can all either needs to be changed.

[A]

Hey, Jenna. Then he better make a lot of big plays to go with the bad ones because Monday night he only made a couple of those.

[B]

All I'm saying is the, the Josh Young we saw on Monday night is the same Josh Allen. The same mistakes we have seen from year one, year two, year three, year four, year five, where we come on these podcasts and we say, man, that was pretty bad and man, he needs to grow up. And then next week he can have unbelievable plays. And I'll be like, that was crazy. But Josh said it best. It's the double edged sword. That's what I'm saying, is that all of a sudden Josh isn't going to dull one end of his sword to, to, to make one side better. Like, this is who he is. You're going to live with the highs and the lows of the Josh Allen experience. It's going to be always frustrating. I didn't learn Anything new on Monday night about Josh Allen? That's who he is. When he's bad, he's really, really bad.

[C]

I hear what you're saying, Dan. I think while there is a possibility that is the case for this team to be good, Josh needs to change. He needs to adapt. And now he is an adult. So I think that while he is wired to be that Superman guy, to mash all the buttons, to do heroics every down, they don't need him to do that. And I would like to think with him continuing to progress, continuing to mature, to continuing to get hit really, really hard, maybe it clicks, maybe it doesn't, but this team needs for it to click. I am hopeful that Josh will heed that advice and play a little bit differently. You're right. I have no idea. What we've seen in the past is not that it hits different after a loss. And this season is. Feels like a continuation of last year. And that's why I think that's why I both worry that things won't change and that I also feel optimistic that it's almost like in things have to be at rock bottom for change a lot of times. Like that is how things work. And I think we are, if not there, we're closing in on Josh being like, it's got to be different.

[A]

Let me ask you this.

[C]

That uncomfortable and. And playing like all this stuff, like, it's gotta be that for Josh to change. And we're seeing it be like that.

[A]

I'm sorry, Jenna. How often has he had a game as poor as he had on Monday night?

[B]

I think he had a couple of those games last year.

[A]

Yeah, which ones?

[B]

I mean, like the Cincinnati game turned it over.

[A]

The Cincinnati game, they were down 14 early, got him a touchdown. Yeah, he wasn't great in that game, but they were getting run over in that game. This was a game he didn't have any sense in terms of how you manage the game. He needs to learn more about that. I'm talking about he had four turnovers in the game. He could have easily had six. Easily threw one right in the hand, got away with a fumble. Easily could have had six, made a few really good plays, few Josh plays that he made, but it was limited. I think. Honestly, I think you could make an argument based on where he is in his career. So that would be over the last few years and the game itself. I think you could make an argument that was probably the worst game he's played in the NFL.

[B]

I disagree. But, Mike, we're in the close sure, it's in the bottom. Yeah, it's in the bottom.

[A]

But. But I'm saying in terms of he's, he's a star. He's Josh Allen. And to play like that, you don't see it very, you don't see it. Look, I know. And there's people probably going to be commenting, well, Burrow had a bad game and you know, Mahomes threw the picks and this happens. But it just. And we're looking at Josh all the time. Go ahead.

[B]

I'm not saying Josh is a bad quarterback by any means. Like, like, okay. I'm just saying, like, Josh is a star in the league. And what I'm trying to say is what makes him a star makes him the butt of a lot of jokes at the same time. Because he tries, guys, he's ladling the ball down the field to Latavius Murray on third down. And it works. He did that in Houston to Dawson Knox and we're like, holy bleep. Like, what is going on? My point is, is that. And these are a lot of the comments again, I know like when I say like people are saying and all these things. Mike, you asked him the question in the, in the podium after the game. This loss seems to hurt you more, right? We've seen you despondent before. A lot of people were kind of annoyed at his response of I, I hurt my team. A lot of the responses instead of in years past, it was love that Josh takes ownership, love that he's a leader. A lot of the comments now were, then fix it, Stop doing it. Enough of it. Like, we have seen Josh come to the podium, be very upset and that he plays better for a few games. And it goes back to a Monday night game. Like, this is like what we saw Monday night is not an aberration. We have seen this before, right?

[C]

Yeah, I hear what you're saying. I'm just saying that I think whereas, and you mentioned in the past, people be like, it's all right, Josh, you got it. Now that noise is different. Now that pressure is different. And now it's on him to actually change. And we'll see. Like, look, we will see how this goes. But whereas before people had confidence in Josh playing better. All this stuff now it's not, it's all right, Joshua boy, you got it. It's fix it. So Willie fix it.

[A]

And did you guys notice a little, a little different tone in the locker room? You know, Dan and I went in there, Jenna was in the press room. That was, it wasn't like, this isn't on Josh. It's on all of us. It was. We ride with Josh. But they recognized. I mean, come on. His teammates recognized that that was bad. That was bad. And I don't always hear that. I hear more of like, it's not on him. We got to do better. Yeah, you hear a little bit of that. But they recognized it, too. And I'm not saying he's got the locker room still. I'm not going down that road. But there's a point where it's like, okay, you know, get the ball to other people. Like, even this week. And I know we're going to talk about this week, even this week. Raiders are a decent team. They've got some talent on the team. Go out there and win. Go out and do what it takes to win without thinking. You got to do it all. And there is a level of game manager that he needs to say, I don't need to be this in every game, in every moment. And I think his teammates want him to recognize that, too. It's a little. Because he. Because they hear it's Josh Allen. Show the Josh Allen experience all those kind of things. And I think a little bit with his teammates is going to be like, you know, we can play too. Give me the ball and let me make a play. And I think he needs to recognize that a little bit. And maybe that'll come from his teammates more so than the coaches.

[B]

Jenna, real quick, because I know you want to. We move forward. I know you got one more point. I guess what is so concerning to me is that we've seen this story a few times before. I guess that's what's most concerning is that this feels like Groundhog Day. That. And guess what? These issues may be swept under the rug. And Josh can go out against Vegas and throw for five touchdowns, run one in and throw for 300 yards, and it'll be like, okay, we're fine. But when other quarterbacks that are more not so up and down at times, like, Josh is like, that's just kind of who he is. It's like when Burrow has a bad game, I think there's a sense of, like, that was just an off game. Like, Josh has had these games before and I get it. And maybe year six, even he says, I know better now. I've got to go out and do it. I just don't think that this is the first time coaches and teammates have come up to him and been like, hey, dude, like, let us help you. Like, I don't think this is the first time that they have said, like, figure it out, man. Like, trust me, I think that this is. That's all I'm saying. I'm not sitting here bashing Josh Allen, saying he's not a good quarterback or any of those things. And I hope the comments, like, at least you're watching the video to this point before you say, like, Josh is incredible. I just don't know if anything is really going to change, in my opinion because this is who Josh Allen has shown us to be. The highs and lows, the good and bad for his entire career.

[C]

Dan, do you think. I'll ask Mike this too. Do you think Josh Allen can evolve?

[A]

Go ahead, Dan.

[B]

Not without change right now. Like, they're like, and again, whether it's Dorsey coming down onto the field, whether it's a new offensive coordinator, whether it's a new quarterbacks coach, I think for a while we sat there and said, you know, after the season we said, well, give Dorsey some more time and all of these things. We were afraid of him having three OCs in three seasons. Maybe you just got to rip the band aid off and say, well, what is. Whatever is happening isn't working and to move on. So I think there needs to be change. I think that this isn't just one game. I think that I remember going this Cincinnati game thinking, I think Ken Dorsey's coaching for his job. I think Ken Dorsey's coaching for his job again on Sunday. I think, because I think that this is a real chance that there needs to be drastic change if things don't get better and get better quickly. This is too good of a team with too much, with too high of expectations, too much invested to just be a okay team. There's no more of these kiddie mistakes for them to say, well, it's fine, like, why? Why change something? There needs to be change. Josh can evolve, but he needs to have real change around him.

[A]

I don't disagree with Dan. I will tell you this. In the pecking order of this franchise, it's Josh Allen above Brandon Bean, Sean McDermott, Ken Dorsey, everybody. It's hard to find these guys, right? And they all make mistakes. And at some point, Josh is going to be the last man standing in this organization. That's what I think. No matter what else happens, right? And maybe Dorsey becomes, and I'm not absolving him saying sacrificial lamb, but there is times when there has to be change. I don't like a lot of the things that he has done but it's funny, and I really want to get to talk about this, about some of the things they've attempted to do in the offense. Those are things the coordinator does, right? Give them different options, change things around a little bit. But at the certain point, Jenna mentioned this at the beginning, a certain point, balls in Josh's hands, like, and then D's call. It's not Dorsey's call, it's not McDermott's call, it's Josh's call. So I believe he can evolve. I think he is a super talented player, and I think I saw something in him Monday sitting there that looked a little different to me. It's why I asked him that. And I think he. He will begin to. This will come out, but not as much as what we saw on Monday.

[C]

I mean, that, to me, though, is, oh, go ahead, Dan.

[B]

I don't want to add this to it. How much do you want to take that away out of Josh? Like, how much do you.

[C]

I think it's refining because you know what I'm saying? Like, last year, I don't think it's changing. That's why I asked, Like, I didn't ask, do you want to change Josh Allen? I said, or, like, do you want. Does Josh Allen make changes? Like, does Josh Allen need to evolve?

[B]

So that. That's my thing is that, like, there needs to be change around him to evolve. Because if you're telling Josh, like, be a little more again, it. It comes across as like, a. A negative. But to call himself a game manager, like, you need a little bit more game manager, well, then you need to give him help. So that on third and 14, it's not just Josh, go be Superman. Like, there needs to be help around him. Like, they didn't. Remember we talked about last year, like, there wasn't an identity on offense. And like, their plan was, Josh, go be Superman on third down. Like, we're sitting here and again for 15 minutes, we can say, like, Josh has got to be better. Josh has got to be better. That's what I'm saying. There's got to be change around it. Because the organization, the last 18 games has just relied on Josh being Josh Bleep and Allen. Like, there needs to be other things around him, whether Josh doesn't trust it or there's that trust around him.

[A]

Jenna, that sets us right up to go into the next part of the podcast.

[C]

All right, so let's talk about it. Dor.

[B]

Jenna's so sad.

[C]

No, I'm not sad. It. This is honestly, I Think our best podcast because I love your discussion, your.

[A]

Coup'S counseling that you were giving Dan and I. When you said Dan, I hear you, I thought it was great.

[C]

Oh, I thought you were talking about.

[B]

I just want to feel heard, guys. Mom, Dad, I just want to feel heard.

[C]

Can you tell? I've been in therapy for years. All right, let's talk about though, Kendor, what. What are the change? What do we want to see? Mike? What do you want to see from him?

[B]

What are we doing?

[A]

I. What are we doing? I like a lot of what I saw and it's one week and you cannot judge it. I like the 12 personnel. I like Kincaid on the field. I like the pace that they had early. Right. You know, you did see a little bit different in Josh at the beginning of the game. Quick decisions, dump it off. I know it's not. Get it to cook. Get it to. Well, Fountain, Kincaid, you got to look more over the middle of the field. We did also see there were times Josh even admitted there's a good example on the one where. And it's Diggs, by the way, who was open in the middle of the field. But that's more of a normal play. They ran 12 personnel, more than any team in the league, which is different for them. I think that is the kind of thing that is going to help Josh look. You can't expect it. Week one, limited time in the preseason, Week one. That it's all going to be great. But I like the idea of what they're doing. I think they will be a more versatile, better offense when we can take a little better sample than just one game against a really good jets defense. But I like that. I like giving him those options. And to Dan's point, they did not do that last year. They were a stagnant offense that just relied too much on. I think you will see benefits of that as we go forward. Maybe that we didn't see him in week one, but I like. I like the plan. Even though it's going to take a little while to get the execution going.

[B]

Yeah, that's a. That's a good point. And McDermott talked about it. They got off script a lot. And I think that's for the inside. You know, inside baseball, like teams, offenses, colleges, even high schools, they probably have the first 12 to 15 plays scripted. It's what they go through with the walkthrough. It is okay.

[C]

That part of the NFL is scripted.

[B]

Yeah, legitimately scripted. And you pretty much have plays that like, we're going to run These plays, we've ran them all week. We know they're going to be successful. They are our bread and butter plays. But you could have 12 plays scripted and on the first play you get a holding call and now it's first and 20. You are now officially off script. The plays that you have scripted are not first in 20 place. That's a different part, part of your play calling sheet. Now all of a sudden you're not getting to that. And on I think they had 13 drives, I think seven of the drives started with zero yards gained on first down or negative yard gains.

[A]

You're screwed.

[B]

You're screwed. And so like I can't put necessarily all of that on Dorsey because like as much as I, I could, like I, I am being objective enough to realize like Dorsey calls. It was same thing I used to say with table. Like you can't judge a play call on the result. You have to judge it going before the ball is snapped. Is it the right call? Should you have checked out of it? What were you seeing? If you're calling a run play to the right side because you see an uneven defense, but then the right tackle gets blown up and it's a two yard loss. Was it a bad play call? No, it was poor execution. That's not on Dorsey. So it's tough to judge him based off that. My only fear, Mikey, talk about the 12 personnel, which is all we've heard about all off season. And it could be because the jets are a different monster. The jets didn't change. And this 12 personnel was supposed to help dictate what defenses did for you, that they could have lighter boxes because you'd have to accommodate for more passing options for the tight ends that they could block and also got for passes. The jets didn't adjust at all. They said your 12 personnel like, cool, we don't care.

[A]

And no, they stayed in nickel more than they ever do. They stayed in nickel. They went small the whole game because the bills were in 12.

[B]

It just didn't affect them. And again, maybe it's because they're a Jets, a really good jets defense. And Sean McDermott said like, they don't do a lot, but they fly around and give them credit and they're right.

[A]

Tackle and you're right. You use that as an example and the right tackle gets blown. Blown up.

[C]

I was thinking when you said that, yeah, I was like, yeah, why would you give that example?

[B]

That wasn't a, that wasn't a Freudian slip. That was just so. Yeah, I guess I Wanted to see a little bit for as much as we, we talked about. Like there needs to be more safety valves and taking the cheese. It is really tough in the NFL to have 12, 13 play drives. Like there need to be chunk plays and there need to be catch. There needs to be run after the catch because it is very hard to plot yourself down the field without a possible holding call or a full start that gets you then again off script. It is very tough to dink and dunk your way all the way down the field. It's Brady was really good at. It was death by a thousand paper cuts. But like that is very tough. Like you need 15, 16, 20 yard chunk plays. There wasn't any of that.

[A]

No. But Jenna Mahomes does it because teams drop deep and they would try to take that when they had certainly when they had Tyreek Hill. And I know he's Mahomes, but I'm saying is sometimes you just gotta take a breath, don't worry about making that play and look who's out there. I'm talking about this 12 personnel. Dan's right. How the jets did. The Bills will adapt too, but that's what they're going to run this year. They're going to be giving him more of those options and I think honestly we'll see how it goes. I think Kincaid is going to be a more and more valuable pass catcher in this offense. Yeah, we'll give him those options. Maybe we didn't see it enough in week one, but I think we're going to see it this year.

[C]

I'm gonna say I think I need more of a sample size.

[A]

Right.

[C]

I need, I need a bigger sample size to really evaluate in terms of. I know some people might be like, well, what do you think of Dorsey, all this stuff? I think there was obviously last year there were some issues. Issues this season now with them and having Dalton Kincaid, I guess in just in general like the offense just pretty lackluster. Like yeah, I wanted to see Gabe Davis involved more. I felt like Stefan Diggs, they got away from him. They need to go back to him. Like Dawson Knox really wasn't a part of it. I thought James Cook had some nice flashes, but it just felt like things were still just reliant on Josh. And I think that feeds into him feeling like he has to be the guy that does it all. So it's like a symbiotic relationship of maybe we expect Josh to be the Superman because there's just not enough going right for him to feel like he can give the ball away to someone else.

[A]

Yeah, that's.

[C]

That's my thoughts.

[B]

Sean talked about it on Tuesday. I don't think it's getting blown out of proportion, but I think it's. It's valid. And again, it is overreaction week one, but the fact of. Jace Gerski of the Buffalo News asked Sean McDermott about the need for a somebody else to step up as a number two option. Stefan Diggs was incredible. Once again, 13 targets, 10 catches, over 100 yards, and a touchdown. The next guy had four catches, I think, was James Cook. Gabe only had two. Kincaid, I think, had four things like that. And he said, like, we need it. Like, we need it. And I think a lot of people are like, what? Like, that's a shot at Gabe. I don't think it's a shot at Gabe. It's just the fact of, like, it's all. Again, it's all fun and games and everybody's got a plan. So you get punched in the mouth like some. When. When things started to go south in that second half. You need somebody that's not number 14 to win one on one and get open. And they're still trying to find that. And I guess that's. That's frustrating and worrisome to me that, like, we're still trying to figure out over the last 17 weeks or 18 weeks went back to that season, like, Diggs needs a. A robin. Like. Like Diggs is the guy and he needs somebody to help him out. And I don't know where they're gonna find that, but they need it. And Sean didn't shy away from that. He said that Gabe did good on the. The. The final drive, but one of his catches. I still don't know if Josh was throwing the ball to Gabe or Diggs.

[C]

I was thinking that, like, Diggs and him were in the same spot.

[B]

The same spot. And again, we saw that last year with Dorsey wide receivers, that same spot.

[A]

Hey, hey, let me tell you something. If two wide receivers are in the same spot, that's not on the oc. That's on the wide receivers, okay? The play's not drawn up to put two guys in the same spot. Somebody went the wrong way. Heck, it happened with Allen and Diggs on the first drive where they were mixed up on the play. He thought he was going to go in, he went out. I'm not blaming that on Diggs. I'm saying is there are plays like that, but when two guys are in the same spot, that's the execution of the play. No one designs a play to put two wide receivers in the exact same spot.

[C]

I agree with you, Mike. I think someone messed it up.

[B]

Someone gave an Isaiah last year, like ran into each other in the middle of the field and we were sitting there going like, what is. What is going.

[A]

Probably Isaiah's fault.

[B]

Yeah, big Isaiah fans. Isaiah fans love the guy.

[C]

Yeah. Okay, real quick, do what was. What was some good that we saw Monday. I feel like fans need. Yeah.

[A]

Yes, I'm with you. I thought Rousseau looked good. I thought obviously Leonard Floyd looked really good. Yeah, he did. And I'm thinking again, bigger picture. Hit Von Miller back on that field in a few weeks and that can be a really effective outside pass rush. Run defense, not so much. That's a separate issue. But to Dan's point, right away that I thought that looked good.

[C]

Yeah, I agree.

[B]

I thought, I thought the defense in general, again, I know it was Zach Wilson, but like, I know we can knock Trey White for the Garrett Wilson touchdown. You throw that ball 90 more times, I don't think Garrett Wilson comes down with it more than two or three more times.

[A]

What a play though. Man, that was 100 something else. Right?

[B]

And again. And I know you can't take away the one run, but like they, they were okay. Like, like I thought the defense was fine. They held up against them. You know, they always talk about that sudden change, like turnovers and things like that. Like they held the. They held the jets to field goals. Like, I don't think it was. I thought Sean McDermott was, was good. I wouldn't say fine. I thought he was good in his first game. Again, I know it's Zach Wilson, but like it's still, I thought still Breeze hall, it's still Dalvin Cook. Like it's still. There's still dudes over there on the jets offense. So I thought that was a positive. And I'm so glad I Talked to Sean McDermott yesterday. I was the one that asked him about Christian Benford because, yeah, you look at him, maybe it's just the number 47. He just looks un athletic at number 47. But like he just has it. And I was trying to say, like, what is it that makes a six round pick that seems undersized, that isn't overly freak athletic like some of the other corners on the team. What makes him so special? And he talked about the play where he chases down Breeze hall and he's like, that should be a play that we're showing on SportsCenter. Like that effort saved a play. And I'm hoping to sit down with him next week just because he also doesn't say anything. And in a sport where every cornerback is like a wide receiver on defense talking trash 24.7micah I joke gesture that he goes. He. I go. He goes, oh. I went up to him after the play was over and said like, great play. And I go, did he say anything back? And he was like, nope. I was like, of course he didn't because he doesn't say anything. And he's like, he talks sometimes, but like, you got to pull it out.

[C]

He's the Matt Milano of the secondary.

[A]

Yeah, that's what I was gonna say. Speaking of guys who don't speak. And Milano was. Milano was great.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

Yeah. And I'm encouraged by, you know, what we've seen at a Terrell Bernard. He made like in some of those plays. But I. I need to see more. We all need to see more, but I'm encouraged at least to some of the athletic plays he made.

[C]

Yep. All right. And then just finally, are the Raiders.

[B]

Yep.

[C]

A threat?

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

What are they doing? Nine and a half point favorites. The Bills are.

[B]

Well.

[C]

I'm a little nerd.

[A]

Garoppolo doesn't make mistakes. He's not. He's the 180 from Josh. They've got a stud running back, stud wide receiver. They got some athletes in the secondary and they're going to come in off a win. They won a game. I tell you guys all the time, you know, it bad. Teams don't know they're bad yet they think they're going to be the one. I don't know how good the Raiders can be. They've got some decent talent there. So Bills need to go figure out a way to win the game and the better they look. That's great, but it's figure out a way to win the game.

[C]

I'm scared.

[B]

Yep.

[C]

Yeah, I'm scared, too, because I'm like, I don't want them to just win. I want them to dominate like that. I don't expect that, but I'm saying that would be what would make me feel better.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

No, truly, you're right. I would be like, okay, they. It was a shitty week one, but if they are in a rock fight with the Raiders at home in the opener.

[A]

I might happen as nine and.

[C]

A half point favorites.

[B]

Yeah. I kind of said the end of my story and I. I did steal it from Matt Beauvais, friend of the channel. So I. I will say that I did steal it from Them. When I talked about Mike's always expression is that in the NFL you either win or you panic. And Bovet said to me, we were talking yesterday practice, it was his line that he goes, the sky isn't falling but a loss and you should grab an umbrella like, like if they lose again, we got issues. And my fear is that we just mentioned it. They've got enough dudes to cause havoc in a game. Devonte Adams is one of the best wide receivers, Josh Jacobs is one of the best running backs. And I am, I think I woke up today in a cold sweat thinking about who's going to block Max Crosby because I can, I can see him going TJ Watt on this right side of the Bills deep offensive line and just having three sacks, a force fumble, five quarterback pressures and, and my fear is, is this goes back to Dorsey and I'm not trying to pile on sometimes I am. But just to say like if you had all off season and that was what you drew up against the jets, you now only have five days to now draw up a new thing and that's concerning to me. If you didn't make the adjustments all off season, what adjustments can you make are you going to make in five days? Because Sean McDermott said it after the game. Jenna, you asked what's his message to his team? He said they had to learn from it and then he finished that sentence by saying they got to learn fast. And that's concerning.

[A]

Yeah, agreed.

[C]

I will say though, if, if they lose again in our ow and two to start the season, that would feel like rock bottom and rock bottom is where changes will happen. Just something, just something to to say and consider. Okay. All right, gentlemen, this was a spicy episode. I liked it. And Mike, your Mike was great. So we, we appreciate your.

[A]

I'm outside, I got people working. It's me and the dog. I, I will get all this fixed at some point.

[C]

We know.

[A]

Oh my God, I'm having I T. Issues, but it is nice out today and I got to wear the hoodie.

[C]

Love it.

[B]

He's phenomenal. So Mike just left. I don't know why, but the life advice that I that or life problems that I'm going through. Jenna, Shane, my three year old daughter's going to preschool. She's cursing like a swale a sailor and she's using the swear words in the correct context which makes me both happy and also aggressive and also very sad. I get a text from my wife yesterday, I'm up at Bill's and she goes, shane just said the F word. And I said, like, are you sure it was the F word? And she said, clear as day. She goes, My wife said, shane, we forgot to make protein balls. And Shane responded with, o F, we forgot to make protein balls. So.

[C]

Honestly, I personally love that. I'm sorry. That's funny.

[B]

A week earlier, we were driving home and there was a delivery truck in our driveway. And she said, oh, shit, people are here. Like, she's using the context perfectly. So I have. I have concerns about my daughter and her potty mouth. She must learn it from Aunt Jenna.

[C]

I mean, that's fair, but it's not on me. That's on you. Oh, shits. All right, thank you for joining us, everyone.

[B]

Mike had radio.

[C]

Mike had radio. That's why he had to leave. Please be sure to, like, comment. Comment your opinion on the Josh debacle.

[B]

Can Josh evolve?

[C]

Can Josh evolve? That's the question. Yeah. Be sure to subscribe if you enjoy our stuff. Also, check out the Buffalo plus store, BuffaloPlus.com free shipping on anything over 25. So if your order is over 25, free shipping. So somebody.

[B]

It's on me. John.

[C]

Mike, thank you for joining us. For Mike, who's having more technical issues, and Dan, I'm Jenna. We'll catch you next time here on Buffalo plus, presented by Connors in Ferris. Thank you.