← Buffalo Plus: A Buffalo Bills podcast
Buffalo Plus: A Buffalo Bills podcast
Have Bills taken a step back?
00:47:30
Have the Bills taken a step back in AFC?
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In the time it takes you to.
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Actually board a flight from Group 8.
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Now boarding Premier Altitude Elite club members.
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It's time for the Buffalo plus podcast. Ellen again Rolls on the move, lets it fly. Oh Diggs. Oh, what a catch.
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C
Foreign welcome back to the Buffalo plus podcast presented by Connors and Ferris, Mike Catalana, Dan Fates I'm Jenna Cottrell. This week we're going to be tackling the Bills. Is it a coaching issue? Is it a roster issue? Who is to blame and what big decisions the Bills have ahead? Tremaine Edmonds, Jordan Poyer, just to name a few. And what the Bill's options are and what they should consider doing. All right Mike, we are in full off season mode. I know a lot of Bills fans not exactly pleased about that but we take a step back at what the season was and we know the Bills did not achieve what we were expecting them to do. Do you think it is more so the coaches not putting players in the correct position or do you think it's the players not being talented enough or what do you make of of where they are at right now?
- [01:17]
A
Everybody is at fault here and I am not absolving Brandon Bean. It's not a total roster issue but the roster is not good enough. Were the coaches up to it? No. We can find many examples of where especially at the coordinator level they didn't emphasize the talent that they had because let's stop pretending this roster is not a top five roster or wherever number you want to put them at and injuries played a part in that. And then it's, you know, obviously some is on the players themselves. We have there's some great players on this roster. There's guys that didn't hold up. So my only thought is it's not a cop out to say it's everything. I put roster number one. I just don't think it's an elite roster and we can blame coaches and there is plenty to go around. But Dan, I say it starts with the type of player and the level of player they have on the roster.
- [02:10]
B
I've calmed down a little bit since the game. Obviously you talk about like you have that initial emotion and that's part of why that our post game podcast that we do on the drive home is so great because it is just the, the your guttural reaction to that was Terrible. This is awful what's going on. But after watching that Bengals and Chiefs game, Mike, I was before the game, you know, after the Bills lost, I was 75 of the blame should go on the coaching staff and the coordinators and 25 on. And I am much more 50, 50, if not a little bit more on the player side being at fault because at some point you got to make plays. Like, you just have to make plays.
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C
And.
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B
And I'm sitting there and you saw the Bengals and Chiefs while both teams made adjustments. Like, you saw the beginning of that game and you went, wow, the Chiefs are going to get a dozen sacks on Joe Burrow. And the Bengals made adjustments. They went to max protection. Like, that's a good schematic adjustment. And I'm looking at that. And I go, Ken Dorsey, I don't know why I thought that he would make adjustments in the playoffs when he didn't make adjustments all season long. So my feeling hasn't changed on what Ken Dorsey is. But I'm with you, Mike, that like this roster just wasn't good enough. There wasn't. The Chiefs had so many backups in rookies playing, and they were fine. They were fine because they found ways to make plays. And I just never saw enough Bills players this year make enough plays.
- [03:51]
C
Well, I think it's interesting and I agree with you guys. Like, the truth between the matter is usually in the middle. Like it. There are both sides are at fault. But I felt like it was very indicative of where Brandon Bean was kind of at at his end of the year press conference by the tone in which it not being the usual, like, yeah, guys, we. We came up just short, but we're gonna make some minor adjustments. It was more of a, you know, very close to the vest type of feel because he, I think, feels that pressure because of the roster. And it's really interesting what he said because he was like, you know, you can't base your entire season and the results off of the way the last game went, because we really haven't been blown out of the gym in many circumstances. So I say, I take that. And I say, well, you can go back a lot further. And maybe you weren't getting blown out of the gym because obviously you had so many wins this season, but every game was. So they really struggled to close teams out, bad teams. And it's like this team, look, you can't expect going into the season you're going to have Micah High go down and Von Miller. But at the same point, you know, the injuries are apart. You just don't know which players are going to end up injured. But I just, I felt like that was very telling when he's like, you know, you can't let this Bengals loss kind of simmer in your mind like that. But it's like this team was barely good enough all season long.
- [05:14]
A
Yeah, you, you're right, Janet. It's funny, don't tell me why, but I was looking at the Vikings Bills game. My wife's away. I had too much time on my hands. That game was so strange, but they made so many mistakes in that game and we all know they should have won. It should have ended up as a win. But I was watching it, looking for something specific and I just kept seeing interceptions or near interceptions or fumbles or letting an 80 yard run go by. And I'm like, wow, this team, like, where were they? And we had so much of that this year. And when I put it all on the roster, I say, not all on the roster, but a lot on the roster. I say to myself, are these guys you're going to continue to go with? Meaning, like, we thought guys would step up. So when I look at Gabe Davis, I'm like, is that a mistake by coaching of not putting him in the right spot? Is that a mistake? Is that Gabe, did he not step up? Is it on Brandon Bean for thinking that he's good enough to be in that two spot? That's why I say it's a combination of things. But when I take a step back and I look and Dan, you're saying like, guys aren't making plays again, some of that is maybe it's not the right guys or not enough. And I know people are probably putting it in the comments now when they watch this. They were decimated by injuries this year on the defensive side. I mean, it was a weekly thing where guys were either out or you didn't know. I kept joking that the pregame 90 minutes when they're announcing who's active, it used to be the fifth wide receiver. Now it's like, oh, is Milano playing? Is Edmonds playing? Is Poyer playing? Like, it was real. And you lost Von and Hyde for the year, so. But none of that matters now. Now it's like, okay, who's back? Who's going to be healthy? Who do they want back? And trying to make it work. That's when you then get into, are these the right coaches to make it work? And we keep hearing about maybe Leslie Frazier. There could be some changes. I guess that could happen. I Know, it seems to me, Dan, that when I hear from fans, they want Leslie gone and I think they're willing, it sounds like many of them are willing to give Dorsey more leverage, more leeway. And I don't know if I see that.
- [07:29]
B
I'm the exact opposite. I think if there is.
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C
Oh, you are?
- [07:34]
A
Yeah.
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B
I think if there is, you know, an excuse to go around, you can look at Leslie Frazier and say, man, he was playing shorthanded like he didn't get the resources. And I was, I'm saying that knowing Von Miller was out, Micah Hyde was out, cornerstones for that team on that side of the ball were either out or injured or missed significant time and still put together a pretty productive defense. Now again, we can go back to this, you know, chicken or the egg thing first, because the fact of the matter is, is that was it the defensive line, the talent, or was it the scheme that they were in? But I, I looked at that Ken Dorsey game and I, and I just said the fact was they had all their guys. There was no real excuse on that offensive side of the ball today. Well, they didn't have blank. They had everything. So to me, again, and, and that's, I can't remember where we talked about it, guys. I don't think maybe it was the, the recap show that Mike and I did on the Thursday after the season, but the fact of the matter was we, we joked on that Bean kind of sounded a little defensive in his end of the year press conference. And it was a lot of like, well, he's a first year guy. Like, give, give him a break. It's like, give him a break. Like you hired him knowing he was a first year guy but wanted to keep him because of the familiarity. And the familiarity did not trump the rookie coordinator position that, that outweighed the familiarity. So this thought of, well, you just, you know, give him another shot. It's like, why, for what, what, what did Ken Dorsey do? And, and being will say, look, we did a lot of good things and all that stuff. I don't know, I'm just, I, I'm way more move on from Dorsey than, than move on from Frazier.
- [09:23]
C
Okay, so you, you bring that up and I feel like a lot of people echo that as well of this. Just the frustrations. And, and it is interesting because you look at the stats and like the Bills did sport score more points this season, but it just felt so different.
- [09:36]
B
As we all open your eyes.
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C
Yeah, no, I, I agree. Like, I think it's one of those things where maybe they didn't score as many points last year, but just the ease in which everything was. And I felt like this year was so dependent on. And we. We've talked about this. Just Alan having to be outstanding. Allen having to put the team on his back. And when he's the best player on the field, you expect him to play the best. But at the same point every single week, the expectations of that, like, you're going to be disappointed at certain moments because that's just how life works. But Dan, you. You talk about moving on from Dorsey. Like, what. What do you do then? Like, you. You'll have another offensive play caller in the building. You'll have another offense. Josh, like. Like there's. I'm not saying you keep Dorsey because, well, he's just been there. But at the same point, I. Where you're. Where this team is at and where they want to go. Like, this is a huge window for this team. And is it, do you think, beneficial for them to change an offensive coordinator knowing that they don't like, knowing the changes that would come?
- [10:43]
B
Yeah, yeah. Like. Like the repercussions of yeah, yeah, yeah. No, no.
- [10:48]
C
Because you have a new offensive coordinator doesn't mean he's better than Ken Dorsey.
- [10:51]
B
Correct.
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C
Doesn't mean he's worse. But there's obviously.
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B
To me, I'm okay with bucking the trend a little bit of this familiarity of, oh, he's, you know, he's been around. He knows this guy. Like, I would rather have a guy joke trying to with you guys, somebody that's had a cup of coffee with Sean McVeigh like that. That's where I'm at. Because I lack the creativity I lacked, you know, seeing a design from Ken Dorsey. Danielovsky did a great breakdown on what the Chiefs did against the Bills. And it was one of those things I was like, man, the Bills had played, in theory, decent defense. The Bengals just had every single answer to the test that the Bills were going to throw at them. And I went there and I went, man, that was really cool to see the Bengals go into a game going, hey, we're probably going to see zone, because, you know, you can't go manto man against the Bengals. Skill, position, players. So you're going to see zone, and here are five plays and six concepts that we're going to use to beat zone. I never saw that once going into a game. The Bills of, hey, if we see this, we're going to do that. It was a whole lot of, man, let's try and See if we can slog our way down the field. Let's see if Josh can, can throw it 50 yards. I just never saw that, Mike.
- [12:02]
A
Well, yeah, I mean, I don't think that's necessarily the plan. I think what it was was they believe that when Josh gets those coverages, they're going to let it go. And you know, that is a, you know, and teams started to give them that, like we're going to take the cheese away, as you like to say, and we're going to say, go ahead, let's see what you can do. And you keep trying that. It's a low percentage type offense and I think they had that. Jenna. I want to go back to when I was talking about the rosters and this is why I'm more, more on it. If I'm on either coordinator side, it would be Leslie Frazier. Is that wasn't the Bills defense that was out there by the end of the year.
- [12:38]
B
Yep.
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A
Between injury, injuries even. I mean, let's be honest. Jordan Poyer wasn't healthy. We know that. That was the starting offense. It was the starting offense. Right. Was, was anybody why missing something who wasn't on the field at the end of the year. They were all there. Right. So. And they were terrible. And last year in the playoffs, because, you know, I don't want to forget the Bills had a bad stretch of offense late in the year and they ended up getting to 7 and 6. And we know what happened and we thought they found something in Tampa and then they made some plays and then they were explosive in the playoffs last year. And that's what you gives you hope because you're like, this is what they can be. And then day ball leaves and they make these moves that looked okay on paper because you thought a guy coming off four touchdowns in a champ in a playoff game was going to elevate. I mean that's, that's not a big stretch to be saying, oh, look at who's, look at who's given the is. He's the Chicago Bulls security.
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C
Yeah.
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A
Seriously, if you're just listening to this, Dan's given the shrug because Dan was anti gay. But that's not it. Not anti gay. He's not anti game. It's anti thinking that he's going to be this week in, week out. And that's. And I gotta say for you, that's coming off one of the greatest games. I mean, I saw Jerry Rice at the Eagles game this week. Like Jerry Rice didn't have a game like Gabe did, but Dan Was like, I don't know if he's that number two guy. So, look, I am a fan of Brandon Bean. This is probably coming out to people like, I'm ripping him. General managers have, you know, a bit of an issue sometimes. And I think with Brandon, it's like he has built a really good team, but then it's making those moves around Josh Allen, all those kind of things. And look, forgive me again, I'm going to mention the Eagles, but only because they're playing. Howie Roseman has been celebrated, vilified, moved to the back of the building, brought back, build a Super bowl team, had it fall apart on him because of Carson Wentz, and build it back up again. I mean, any fan you look at the Eagles now, it's all working. But, man, there were times when it's like, it was like a mess. And this happens. It's hard to be a general manager. It's hard to Jalen Rager. Yeah. Jalen Rager instead of Justin Jefferson, by the way, now they end up with Devonte Smith and A.J. brown.
- [15:06]
B
Yeah, it's like I said, it's forgotten when you hit.
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A
And by the way, yes, Howie is so lethal. He makes stupid mistakes. Like they didn't draft Seattle wide receiver big guy dk and they ended up drafting a wide receiver out of Cal who was a stiff. He was terrible. He never did anything. He ends up trading him to Seattle. So he's like, puts him on Seattle after his bad move. He's like, I'm in such a good spot now. I'm a send a guy Seattle. And where does he send Jalen Rickery sends him to Minnesota. It's almost like, yeah, you can have both of these guys. I screwed up. You take them. I'm going to go with AJ and Devonte. My point was Brandon Bean has done 85% of what he's done is really strong the last two drafts. Now, it's hard to count the. This past year's draft their rookies. Well, you want to go back more, but certainly the last two. I mean, Greg Russo, we think is that kind of player. But you got to get. You got to get impact out of these guys. Spencer Brown, I mean, you're thinking he's a starter. Is he a starter in this league?
- [16:14]
B
I just want to finish one point on this because we're kind of zigzagging. But Jenny, you had said, like, what are the repercussions? Excuse me. If you were to move on from. From Dorsey and I. I remember saying it. It was tough to Give the keys to this Ferrari to, to a guy with a learner's permit. Like, I had said that several times. Like that was my big fear was that you let. And guess what? He's stalling out the clutch. He doesn't understand traffic signals and all of a sudden he's in a traffic jam and things aren't good. My point is it's not the exact person. Like we, we hinted at it after the game. Like Frank Reich would have been a really interesting case to make. Obviously now he's a head coach in Carolina. Yes, I, I understand that. And the name isn't exactly right, but I guess what, what I wished for and I don't know if it's possible anymore, but the fact of like a proven offensive coordinator, somebody that has called plays in multiple systems, that has his own philosophies. My analogy last year was it's not the right person because I think he's a terrible head coach, but a decent coordinator. It would be like a Norv Turner, like a guy that had been around the block that could sit Josh down and say, hey, listen, you've got unreal talent. I've got a great scheme that has worked. Just listen to me. And I feel like it's there. There's not that there. Whether it's the accountability like we have talked about with Dorsey and Allen or one thing or another, it just is lackluster for me. So what is the, the, the repercussions? Well, it's starting over, but I don't. Yeah, kind of okay with starting over. And, and, and I understand the points per game, but I would rather start over and, and see something that actually had concepts, plays, principles, designs, because I didn't see any of that.
- [17:56]
A
Yeah, I think the Bengals and the Chiefs are fascinating examples of this because the Bengals have a great offensive roster in terms of skill position players for their quarterback. The Chiefs have had that and then don't. And Mahomes still makes plays, but he also has probably the greatest play caller play designer in the history of the league in Andy Reid. So you can go either way. And to Dan's analogy about driving, Jenna, you're a better driver now maybe than you were with old Bessie. To you are with your fancy new ride now, right?
- [18:30]
B
Get a new car.
- [18:31]
C
Got a new car, guys.
- [18:33]
A
But what I'm saying is to Dan say. That's why I say you love to blame Dorsey because it's easy to say it's the coordinator. And there were certainly issues. Players aren't good enough. The line is not Good enough at all.
- [18:49]
C
You asked Josh to do everything they do.
- [18:52]
A
Dan, what was it? Third down. Go ahead, Josh.
- [18:55]
B
Yeah, the only thing I, I, I disagree with there is that the coaches are supposed to continue to develop those players.
- [19:03]
A
So if, well, yeah, there's development. No, no, that's two different things. That's position coaches developing and then it's.
- [19:09]
B
Coordinators in the right spots too. Like, like D pushed the right. And again, we, we got 18 minutes into this podcast without before I brought up my, my best friend, Brian Dable. But the fact is that, like, he put those guys into situations where they could be successful. And for the longest time for being this year, Dawson Knox didn't do anything. And, and people, people were showing his, his route trees and what he ran compared to last year to this year, and they were completely different.
- [19:35]
A
Like, yeah, he also wasn't had a block pass on pass plays because they had a lousy offensive line and needed help. And Gabe Davis dropped balls in the end zone. He's in the right spot. You got to make the catch. I'm saying is it's give them better play. Give Josh Allen, give Ken Dorsey, Jamar Chase and T. Higgins and that those guys on offense and Tyler Boyd and I think he'd be a play caller. Doesn't. Better play doesn't mean he'd be as good as you want him to be. Right. There may be a ceiling on that, but there is something about you say players making plays, Jenna, you need those players. They got to go get them for you.
- [20:18]
C
No, I, I completely agree that, but I get you always make fun of me for saying I'm in the middle. Well, and I get why, because I'm always in the middle. But, like, this is a perfect example where I believe that, like, the players weren't good enough and neither was the play calling.
- [20:34]
A
You're right.
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C
Both sides. You wanted to see more creativity. You wanted to see them utilize their guys. And then you also wanted to see players earlier on in the season, like a Gabe Davis and like a Dawson Knox. Knox had a great end of the season, but you wanted to see more consistent consistency throughout the year as well.
- [20:50]
A
Jenna, real quick, all I would say to somebody is into Dan. Even too, we talk about the coordinator, fire the coordinator, bring in Kyle Shanahan, bring in whoever you think is, you know, the great play caller in the NFL, Sean McVeigh, bring him in and say, okay, this is your roster because Kyle Shanahan's a lot better play caller when he's got Christian McCaffrey. Yeah, that's what I mean, then it's way more effective in that way. So as good as they are, Sean McVeigh, Odell Beckham made a huge difference to him when they brought in the other guy. I mean, that's the only point I was making with. It's a combination, Jenna. It's okay to be in the middle. I think that's the smart place to be.
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C
Well, I. Yeah. Huh.
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B
Kyle Shanahan made Brock Purdy look really good.
- [21:39]
A
He made him look. He made him look reasonable, like in the playoffs. I know he didn't play in the Eagles game because he got hurt and he was very, very mediocre against the Cowboys and Dallas probably should have won that game. He's Brock Purdy, so they made. They kept him from the offense falling apart. They weren't exactly a dynamic offense, but he's pretty good play caller, but he's got the guys around him.
- [22:02]
C
I think they were dynamic, but it was Brock Purdy being a game manager and letting the playmakers really step up when they need.
- [22:08]
A
They got some pretty good playmakers on that team.
- [22:10]
C
Yeah, yeah, they definitely. All right. I wanted to talk about too, because we talk about players and the defensive line. They have invested. They have sunk so much capital, whether it be actual money, signing free agents, draft picks, like, and it's still Vaughn Miller going out, huge piece of that. But at the same point, like, they just have consistently not gotten enough out of that position and they've spent a lot of money. Dan, like what? Or Mike, what did they. What do they do? Because it hasn't worked in the way that they've wanted it to. I mean, Ed Oliver, obviously, I think he's shown signs of progress, but, like, you wanted him to be more of like a game wrecker. You wanted. You want to see Greg Russo continue to take those steps. But what about guys like Boogie Basham, AJ Epanessa? I mean, you've just spent so much money. You signed Jordan Phillips, who obviously was dealing with some injuries, but Shaq Lawson as well. Like, you talk about the Chiefs and the Bengals and you see that they have great defensive. They have great offensive and defensive lines. But like, well, Bengals tried to rebuild and had injuries, but Mike, like, that's not working.
- [23:21]
A
No, it's not. It's not. And what I always think of is impactful players. Right. Everybody doesn't have to put up huge numbers. And I think there's a hope that Ed Oliver is that guy and we see flashes of it. But come on, your number one pick, top 10 pick, and now he's going into the fifth year of his contract. It's not that Ed's not a good football player, it's is he a good football player for what you paid him and what you need to do going forward? Not good. It's got to be great. Like if you're going to give him a big deal, he's got to be that guy all the time. I'm, I'm still on board with Greg Russo. I think he's still. I'll use the Tremaine thing. A young player. I think he's got ability. I think he's the type of player you want. But you know, Boogie Basham and AJ Epanessa are guys. If you drafted them in the fifth round, you'd say, okay, they're good rotational guys, they can make a few plays and whatever. I mean, you drafted them in the second round, you drafted them high, both of them. Epanessa was your first pick that year. And they've changed defensive line coaches, like things have changed with this team and when they needed them the most, you know, they were non existent in the biggest game and that's not overreacting to that game. Dan, they came into this season saying we don't have enough there. We've spent all this, we need a closer. I still love the Von Miller signing for what he brings you. And then he got hurt. You, you can't, I don't care what his age is. You can't plan for that. His injury could have happened to anybody. But that told you at that moment they knew they didn't have enough there.
- [24:49]
B
Yeah. Vaughn covered bandages of that defensive line and covered up some wounds that that Brandon Bean had had. But like we saw it over the last five weeks, they didn't have a single player in the top 40 of pass rush win rate, which is just pathetic. The problem is, and I don't mean to take this question a different way, Jenna, but talk about like, what do you do? I think you just have to kick the can down the road. Like, honestly, like in, in the sense of like where this roster is and I've joked that you can throw a dart at this roster and it'll hit something and you can say that group, that position room needs to be improved.
- [25:31]
C
Yeah.
- [25:32]
B
I think they got major issues otherware other, other places. Like I. And I really think that like this could be just a rolling the ball back out there with this same defensive line and, and hoping for a different result. Because you hope that Von comes back. He talks about that he's you know, expects to be ready to go at training camp. I thought Brandon B. Made a good point talking about that. The sense that, well, Trey White tore his and it took him a full year. Vaughn's gonna try and come back in like eight months. And Bean did say that that was Trey's first ever major injury, which is something I didn't factor into the oil change. I. I didn't know that it was the first oil change that he'd ever had. So, like, I was. Because Von street this. I'm not going to say it, but Von's, you know, he's gone through this, so he kind of knows what to expect a lot of those things. But I. I just think where I'm looking at, like, where can you improve, you know, this defensive line. I kind of shrug again because I think that there are much bigger fish to fry elsewhere, especially on offense.
- [26:37]
A
Yeah, well, hold on.
- [26:38]
B
Don't grow on trees.
- [26:40]
A
Before I get to Jenna, before Jenna goes, I just wanted to say, going to be a little different for Von with that oil change, because he had the last one when he was, what, 25 this time. He's like Jenna's age when he's having this.
- [26:52]
B
It's true.
- [26:53]
C
He's telling me he's an old man.
- [26:56]
A
He's an old man. Isn't that. It's crazy. I was telling somebody this week, and this woman's an older woman, and she doesn't follow football. And I said to the guy, well, that guy's older. And she looked at me and I go, well, he's like 32. And in the real world, they're like 32. I'm like, the NFL.
- [27:14]
C
Like, yeah, that's old.
- [27:16]
A
That's old.
- [27:17]
C
Especially be getting an oil change.
- [27:18]
A
That's it.
- [27:19]
C
But I. I hear what you're saying, and you talk about position groups and other things. I mean, Bean has some big decisions to make about Tremaine Edmonds.
- [27:28]
A
Yeah.
- [27:29]
C
I mean, I think Edmonds, we can all agree that he had one of his best seasons. Is he still young?
- [27:34]
B
Yeah.
- [27:35]
C
Or is he now old?
- [27:36]
A
Well, you know where he is. He's young for a guy going into a second deal, which might. Am I right, Dan? He. The second deal might end still before he's 30, right? Correct. Depending on what they give him. Well, that's where in the NFL, let's be honest, NFL people are looking at that. He's been a pretty healthy player. He's been a very consistent player. However you want to judge that. And he's still on the younger side. He didn't start in the NFL at 24. He's there now, so. Or whatever it is. So, yeah, I'd say we joke about it, but for him and his agent, he's young right now.
- [28:11]
C
Yeah. So what do you do, Dan?
- [28:14]
B
I think the message and like this is not trying to beat a dead horse, but I think that if they wanted to get something done, they. They would have gotten it done by now. And I think especially the way that Tremaine played this year had joked that they were hoping that Tremaine would have an all pro season so that he would price himself out of it. Or they could use the price as their excuse to why not to bring him back because the salary cap isn't real. But the fact is, is that I think that if they would have wanted to keep him around, I think they would have found a way to get something done beforehand. I don't think they would have let this contract that'll be telling to see what Ed Oliver does. Because both of those guys. I love how when I start talking, both you guys just look down and I hope people notice.
- [28:52]
A
I'm looking. I'm looking for something to add to what you're saying here.
- [28:56]
B
So it was just funny.
- [28:58]
C
You want to know what I'm looking at? The New York Times sent an article about. I follow the New York Times cooking, and it says the miracle of crispy cheese.
- [29:08]
B
But it's so funny because I'm sure a lot of people are like, dan's talking. All right, we'll. We'll just go back down to, like, the viewers are like, we'll pick this back up when Mike and Jenna start talking again. But I. I just think that if they would have wanted to get something done, they get it done. I think another team comes out there and. And offers a big contract for Tremaine, which he's earned.
- [29:30]
A
Yeah, I'm with you on that. This is. This is a seminal moment for them in terms of Tremaine because of the other issues they have with. We can say the cap is not real because you can work around it. Well, this is one of the ways you work around it where you don't give a big contract if you decide Terrell Bernard ready to be a starter in this league.
- [29:49]
C
That's what I'm. I know. That's how I feel where I'm like.
- [29:52]
A
This is where, like, you know, again, maybe he is, but you'd think you would have seen him on the field more. But that being said, maybe there's something else they do because There are going to be players out there that you can sign for lesser money, smaller contracts, and you spend your money in other places because there is a part where he's got to make a call on this. But this is a guy they drafted with Bean's first pick. It's first two picks. It's Josh and it's Tremaine. Jenna. We always talk about being there, and it was crazy to see the two of them. And he's almost done. He's done about 90% of what you would have hoped he would have done. Yeah, great locker room, great. Everything he does, everything. He's very well respected. He's the kind of guy you probably should find a way to keep, and they might still do that, but it's a lot of money and it's a commitment. And you drafted a guy relatively high, at least, with the thought that maybe he's a guy ready to step in. And I would have liked to have seen some more moments of him, more than AJ Klein getting those snaps at different times.
- [31:00]
C
I think that this, to me, is, like, the crux of, like, how challenging it's going to be this offseason for Bean, because you have big decisions to make about guys, but also, it's like, you could allocate that money in a lot of other ways. But you talk about what a middle linebacker is to Sean McDermott and, like, this defense and all these things where you're like. And he's had a lot of time in the system and the franchise tag.
- [31:24]
A
Is out, almost out of the picture because he gets lumped in with everybody else. It's too much money in one year.
- [31:29]
C
Yeah.
- [31:30]
A
I don't think they. I don't see any way they put the tag on him.
- [31:33]
C
Like, that's the thing. Dan, you said, like, oh, I think this deal, if it were to get done, would have already gotten done. And I hear you on that, but I really feel like Brandon Bean is, like, letting the hourglass like. Like, go through of just, like, what? Like, there's so many decisions to make. How do we make one here?
- [31:51]
B
I. I agree with you there, and I think he's hoping that there's some team that comes and offers him a big check and he can go good.
- [31:58]
A
We.
- [31:58]
B
We couldn't. We couldn't match that even if we wanted to. And it's. We're. We can move on, and it's kind of like, we didn't have to say we didn't want him.
- [32:07]
C
Yeah.
- [32:07]
A
Yeah. I don't. I. I don't think he's as concerned about have to say we didn't want him because once you allow the guy to go into free agency, I mean we're not, you know, there could be some negotiating going on. I'm sure there's something. But to Dan's point, they had time to do that. I, I think if he gets into free agency then their plan was to not sign him.
- [32:27]
B
What about this too? You guys talk about middle linebackers and how important they are. Is trail Bernard ready to step up? Could Milano play middle? I mean the Bills really only go out there with two linebackers. So can you find another kind of outside linebacker?
- [32:47]
A
You got small linebackers if that's your two.
- [32:49]
B
I know, I'm just. But Milano showed me a lot this year as well in his run stopping ability. Like he wasn't just this coverage guy that he was all over the place blitzing. He blitzed more than Tremaine did. Like he was all over the place. So. And I go back to this. Linebackers and running backs seem to be the, the position where you not necessarily save money but it's like you, you, you take the two three year flyers. Two three year deals. Hey, let's hope this guy hits, has a good year or two and then, and then we're good. And I don't see the Bills really giving a 4, 5 year deal to any linebacker. Slash running back. Yeah.
- [33:29]
A
Even though they did draft him, they did draft him 18th overall in the first round. So you know, their thought was he's a, you know, a franchise type piece for them.
- [33:40]
C
Yeah.
- [33:40]
A
So. And then, and because it starts with Poyer, I, I've never seen, I said this where I've never seen a guy have a year like he did where he fought through everything. Never ever covering this team, seen a guy do that. But I think it's going to lead to him playing for another team and because I believe they think Hyde is coming back obviously and you'll, you know, maybe Christian Bernard ends up being, ends up being Benford. I always want to say that it sounds better he should switch his last name. Christian Benford goes to safety or at least an opportunity to play there next to him because I think he's physically could do that. Be great to see him on the field that all of a sudden makes your draft class look better if he's there and you got Elam on the other side and you know you make those moves. But I think you make that move and somebody's going to pay Poyer because it's going to be a relatively Shorter deal, but that's going to be a good team that pays Jordan Poyer. That's going to be a playoff team that pays him.
- [34:37]
C
Yeah.
- [34:38]
A
Miami Dolphins, even though you know they have a safety, but there are teams that would. But then, then you start making those moves, right. And you start looking around as to what, how you're going to do things. And they're going to, by the way, you see the cap, they're already going to do some stuff. They're going to do something with Josh's contract where they can make a change in it. So there, there's some moves they'll make to free up space, but unfortunately, I think Poyer is going to go.
- [35:03]
B
I think a safety position is the number one thing that needs to be addressed for this Bill's off season. Even more than Tremaine. Even more than another linebacker. Yeah, I, I just think if, especially if you're going to keep Leslie Frazier around In the Sean McDermott system, they have built it back to front. I just think it is so crucial to have not necessarily a veteran, but somebody that has played a lot of snaps, knows what they're doing back there to go along with, to go along with. With Hyde. Because I just think that that's such a crucial focal point of lining up for the defense. Everything that they did. Think about all the things that Poyer did, and I know that Tremaine did a lot of things, too, but I just think the MVP or, you know, most valuable of that defense, it's. I think it's. The safeties are a lot.
- [35:53]
C
Yeah, Yeah, I agree. So does that lead you to believe that they will resign Poyer because they need that or. No. Okay.
- [36:00]
B
No, because it was funny. I was just looking at it too. It's just trying to see like Jesse Bates from Cincinnati is a really good safety and he's going into free agency. And I was like, what would he be like? And it's probably, he's probably going to get the same kind of length, same kind of money as Poyer, you know, top five safety money. But it's funny because. But Jesse Bates is 25 years old, so like you, you can sign him to a five year deal. It's really a three year deal. And, and you kind of were able to work around it because I think that again, the focal point of that defense, I think you're willing to spend more money on a safety, in my opinion, than I would be at a middle linebacker.
- [36:43]
C
Yeah, it's interesting. That is a good point. And especially with Hyde getting older as well, coming off an injury like it would be nice to have a younger piece there that could kind of rely on Hyde and then as Hyde, you know, gets older, he becomes a free agent. You could have somebody already in the system who has those, that experience of what you want and bring in someone else. Yeah, I, I see what you're saying. It is interesting because you like, like Mike said, like you could not have asked Jordan Poyer to do more for this team this year. And I hope he gets a lot of money because he obviously put it all out there. So. And I just, I don't think that's with the Bills because of where they're at and what they need to do and how many moves they need to make.
- [37:23]
B
But yeah, I Remember in, in OTAs when Jordan Porter didn't show up to voluntary minicamp and people were saying that he was a bad teammate. The comments of just shut up and play. You signed your contract. And then he played through literally everything this year. Ed was.
- [37:43]
A
Yeah.
- [37:43]
B
Besides Milano, their most important player. They only lost one game with him on the field. I just, I just wanted to sprinkle.
- [37:49]
A
That in, remind people of the pencil that these contracts are written in when guys are in the last year of his. Their deals. And he was an important player to this team, which is why they let it play out the way that it did. And his age was what kept him from signing him. But yeah, the last year, the deal like they're not cutting Gabe Davis. But look at Gabe Davis contract going into the final year where he was drafted. You can move on from players in those circumstances. They're not cutting Gabe Davis. I'm just saying that that's the way the NFL works. And I said, we said at the beginning about a step back. I think they've taken a step back as a franchise. They all have. Because it's funny I listen to people now talk about. Because it, it's become. When it was Mahomes and Allen and the Bills and the Chiefs and now obviously the Bengals have moved ahead of that. But Jenna, I think it's a good thing mindset wise that they've taken the perception is they've taken a step back, get a little pissed off, approach the off season with we need to make these moves, get back a little bit of that underdog which I think helps teams.
- [38:58]
C
Yeah.
- [38:59]
A
And look at the way they use it and. But they have. They're not, they're not. It's. They're. Three of the top two people are talking about the Jaguars slow down on that the Jaguars aren't there with them.
- [39:09]
C
That's aggressive.
- [39:11]
B
But.
- [39:12]
A
But they're behind the other two, so figure out a way to get the.
- [39:17]
C
The Bengals and the Chiefs and the Eagles next year. So, yeah, that'll be something. But I. I get it. I mean, I think. I think that. That being the underdog will be big for them because I think that. That they've earned that. They have. Which, like, you know, we all thought after 13 seconds, like, this is gonna be the year because of how motivated they are because of that, but I think anointing them super bowl favorites, which I understand why that was the case, but it. I think maybe it made them blind to the weaknesses in the roster because I feel like over time, it's like, oh, well, this. These guys always get better. When. That's not. We know that's not how it always.
- [39:59]
A
I blame Dan and his gambling buddies because they were favorites at Kansas City and favorites at Cincinnati. I mean, seriously, Dan, what are you guys doing? I don't know.
- [40:11]
B
Cincinnati game was so bad.
- [40:14]
C
Yeah. All right. Tom Brady retired.
- [40:19]
B
What if you. What if he pulls another psych.
- [40:21]
A
Oh, he's.
- [40:22]
C
No, there's no way. Okay.
- [40:23]
B
It's weird that he did it on the same day. That's not weird to anybody.
- [40:27]
C
No, this was the same. No, he retired last year on my birthday.
- [40:32]
B
Rumors came out.
- [40:34]
A
Oh, well, he didn't announce it then.
- [40:36]
B
He posted on February 1, both days. That's not a little.
- [40:43]
C
I don't think that's that weird.
- [40:44]
A
He's not. He could. He's not doing what he did today and then coming back from it. I mean, he. You know, he did the whole thing.
- [40:53]
B
Like I did for the Instagram video of him and Gronk playing, like, the.
- [40:58]
A
Jay Z. Gronk's done, too. Yeah.
- [41:00]
B
I'm just saying.
- [41:01]
C
No, think about it, though. Like, was the juice worth the squeeze?
- [41:06]
B
Yeah.
- [41:06]
A
Now, this was a terrible year for him.
- [41:08]
C
It was a bad year.
- [41:09]
A
His whole year was terrible. The crypto stuff, Giselle leaving him.
- [41:13]
B
Oh, I thought you meant going to Tampa.
- [41:16]
A
No, no, Tampa was good. Could have bailed after the first year and just would have looked like, hey, just wave at Belichick as he goes away. But he's going to do that anyhow. But, no, I think he and Gronk are both working for Fox now. I saw Gronk. You know, he's doing that horrendous pregame show that Fox puts on, and Gronk is by far the best one. He's the most alert one on the Set. And I can say that because those guys are even older than me. Man, that's a rough show. But Gronk will do that pre game, do all his stuff, his terrible commercials. And Brady will be getting $50 billion a year from Fox to do the games.
- [41:55]
B
Yeah, we, we talk a lot about some bad announcers and Romo, I wasn't great in that Bills Bengals game. Greg Olson is phenomenal. Greg Olson, Yeah.
- [42:07]
C
I feel like you heard people talk about that more. I don't know. I don't. Romo doesn't bother me as much. I don't also hear him every week because when I'm on the field, obviously I don't hear him and all that stuff. But.
- [42:22]
B
Greg Olson has been phenomenal on that A team for Fox.
- [42:26]
A
He's really good at both analyzing the play and saying it in the right way. And, and by the way, speaking of Romo, Joey Molinaro, he does great stuff. He does a. He's great at his voices. He does Romo voices in doing a game, if you get a chance to say it, Dan, you're better at it. He's great. But I'd rather hear Dan doing it.
- [42:49]
C
I don't know, Jim.
- [42:51]
B
I don't know, Jim.
- [42:53]
C
Yeah, I, I don't know. I don't like. I know that's. Everyone now is turning on Tony Romo, but I don't. I think it's fine.
- [43:01]
A
He's all over the map.
- [43:02]
B
It's the yelling. I, I agree. It's the yelling. It's not even the.
- [43:06]
C
It's football.
- [43:07]
A
But, Dan, this is the same thing that happened with John Madden. John Madden was unique and he was different. He was. And then he became like. People would look at him like a caricature where he was just saying things like, they've got the ball, which means they got over the line. And you know what that is? That's a touchdown. Like. And he kind of did say stuff like that, but it was cool the way he did it for a while. And then it was people, you know, saying, that's all he says, so.
- [43:32]
B
And look, Brady's got a great hater.
- [43:36]
C
What are you, a John Madden hater?
- [43:40]
A
Me?
- [43:40]
C
No. I'm kidding. I'm kidding. But you know how. That's how the Internet works.
- [43:45]
A
Oh, that's right. Yes.
- [43:46]
B
But I go. I also don't think that we can automatically pencil in Brady, who is shown that he has a great personality, understands social media, all of those things. It is not easy to just go in the booth. If there is one thing that we have have learned it is not that easy to transit. Drew Brees was horrendous at it. Tony Dungy is pathetic at it. Like, Jason Garrett is awful.
- [44:12]
A
Like, you could have predicted that. All of them were.
- [44:14]
C
They're all. That's not shocking to me.
- [44:16]
A
They're awful. Romo has a personality, but Brady does have one. Like, he has a personality and we saw it. You know, he kept it mostly under wraps for 20 years, but I think he could be. He could be good at it, but he's gotta. Gotta let go a little bit. And then I think. And a partner matters. Kevin Burkhardt is really good.
- [44:37]
B
Phenomenal.
- [44:37]
A
Yeah. At the number one team. So.
- [44:39]
C
Yeah, I agree. Wow. I didn't know you were a big Greg Olsen fan, Dan.
- [44:43]
B
Yeah, big, Big Greg Olson guy. He's. He was great. And again, Mike, like, you're saying he does the X's and O's and breaks down, like, what you think is going to happen, but then he also gives you that insight of, like, just recently being on the sidelines and recently being in a huddle, like, absolutely. This. Hey, right now you're thinking this and you're going, holy cow. What? What's going on? And, like, just a really nice balance. If you haven't heard him or noticed him, he's just really well done.
- [45:09]
A
He had a great line in the Eagles Niners game, and I was watching, he was showing Fred Warner, who's great linebacker, and his line was he got frozen on the play because he wasn't sure what they were going to do. And he said, that's how you turn a 4, 3 linebacker into a 4, 7 linebacker. And I thought, wow, that's really, like. Because you just get them to stop for a second. That's a quick way of anybody who's paying attention goes, oh, yeah, this guy can run, but you made him wait. And I thought that's a good way to express it in a quick way, like you have to do in the NFL of. Of letting people know what's happening.
- [45:45]
C
Yeah, I like Greg Olson. I'm still just. I don't know, Romo. I don't know, dude. I also don't listen to him every week, but.
- [45:53]
A
But, yeah.
- [45:54]
C
Okay.
- [45:55]
A
Yeah.
- [45:55]
C
Anything you guys want to add, gentlemen?
- [45:58]
A
No, but the off season started too soon. You know, we got our cups, we got our stuff, we got our merch.
- [46:06]
B
I can't wait to see Josh on the course this weekend.
- [46:10]
A
Yes. Yeah. Josh not going to the Pro bowl, and we'll be. Dan and I will be heading to combine yes. This year. Yeah. So that's when we'll get a chance to hear from Bean and McDermott. Be interesting time from him there.
- [46:26]
C
Yeah. All right, cool. Please be sure to like, comment, comment what you think the biggest need the Bills need to address in the offset season as well as subscribe. I was getting there, folks. My commander staring at me.
- [46:40]
A
You were delayed.
- [46:41]
C
Yeah. Turn a four three into four seven.
- [46:47]
B
Four three host into a four seven host.
- [46:50]
C
Okay. What? Oh, a host.
- [46:53]
A
Yeah, she's the host.
- [46:55]
C
All right. Thanks for joining us on Buffalo Plus. For Mike and Dan, I am Jenna. We'll catch you next time here on Buffalo Plus.
- [47:01]
D
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- [47:13]
A
Thanks.
- [47:14]
D
Have a good one. Yep, that too. Want one place to manage all your online and in person sales? That's kind of our thing wherever you sell. Businesses that grow grow with Shopify. Sign up for your $1 a month trial@shopify.com Listen. Shopify.com Listen.