Sean McDermott & Brian Daboll's DYNAMIC plus WHERE THE BILLS STAND AFTER LONDON

Summary

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Buffalo Plus Podcast: "Sean McDermott & Brian Daboll's DYNAMIC plus WHERE THE BILLS STAND AFTER LONDON"

Date: October 13, 2023
Hosts: Mike Catalana, Jenna Cottrell, Dan Fetes

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Episode Overview

This episode dives deep into the dynamic between Bills head coach Sean McDermott and former offensive coordinator (now Giants head coach) Brian Daboll, their differing philosophies, and the unique relationship both have with star quarterback Josh Allen. The team also breaks down the Bills' troubling loss to the Jaguars in London, growing injuries on the defense, where the Bills stand going forward, and public perceptions around Josh Allen–Stefon Diggs “drama.” Candid insight and behind-the-scenes observations bring fans closer to the locker room and the pulse of the team.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

The McDermott–Daboll Dynamic: "Awkward Energy" and Different Philosophies

• Daboll's Return to Buffalo: The hosts open with how Sunday’s Bills-Giants matchup brings the Allen–Daboll connection and McDermott-Daboll dynamic back into focus.
  • “He’s a big part of the building block of what this team is...You can't downplay his importance.”—Dan, 01:27
• Downplaying the Relationship Publicly: Josh Allen and Sean McDermott have both tried to minimize the narrative, but it’s clear Allen credits much of his development to Daboll.
  • “It’s almost like, how much did you love your ex-girlfriend?...like, you're trying to be like, hey, moving forward. Like, we're great now.”—Dan, 01:53
• Contrast in Styles:
  • Daboll desired a “high-flying offense” powered by Allen’s playmaking, while McDermott’s vision is rooted in “a physical identity.”
  • “Brian Dable was the one that got away...there’s this awkward energy—just different philosophies.”—Jenna, 05:08
  • “Sean wanted to be a physical team, and Brian Dable's like, well, we don't have a physical roster, so let me do what I'm doing kinda thing.”—Dan, 10:09
• Ego, Credit, and Control: There were clear tensions about credit for the team’s success.
  • “Sean McDermott definitely got a little annoyed that he wasn’t getting as much credit for turning the Bills into a Super Bowl contending team...I think that was part of the power struggle.”—Dan, 06:55
  • The group disagrees if McDermott openly craved attention but agrees ego is “always a piece of it.”
  • “He does want to have control. And with control comes praise or blame.”—Dan, 10:09

The Giants’ Struggles Under Daboll

• “His team, the talent stinks. That is not a good football team...I don’t care how good of a coach you are.”—Mike, 04:06
• Daboll “knows Josh Allen so well" but “doesn’t have the bodies” to exploit it this time.
  • “I don’t think he has the capacity to do that.”—Dan, 06:55

Bills’ Identity Crisis: Offense, Play-calling & Regression in London

• Loss to Jaguars Highlighted Old Problems:
  • Hosts lamented the “lack of identity” that has plagued Buffalo since Daboll left.
  • During the hot streak (Vegas, Washington, Miami), the team embraced play action and under-center looks, but “abandoned it” for shotgun in London.
  • “The Bills ran 58 snaps offensively, 47 of them were out of the shotgun. That's 81%...Josh Allen is maybe right now statistically the best under-center thrower in the NFL, and he's the best passer in the league on play action.”—Dan, 16:39
• Ken Dorsey’s Decisions Under Fire:
  • “Why would you ever go back on what you thought? You were right the first time. This was concerning to me.”—Dan, 16:39.
• Overcoaching & Self-Sabotage:
  • “Sometimes I think teams outsmart themselves...the thing you did worked, so maybe you should do it again and make them stop it.”—Mike, 20:29

Defensive Woes: Injuries, Confidence, and the Elam Experiment

• Key Injuries:
  • Matt Milano, DaQuan Jones, and Tre’Davious White’s absences loom large.
  • “I still believe this defense...can still be a top 10 defense in the league...but again...it's crazy to say this, more concerned about the offense than I am, philosophy-wise, than I am the defense.”—Dan, 25:09
• Kair Elam's Struggles:
  • The first-round corner’s lack of fit and confidence is dissected.
    • “What is most concerning to me is...all of those things, he had this swagger about him...Now you see him...he looks like a deer in headlights...a guy that has his confidence rocked.”—Dan, 30:04
  • The coaching staff has “no confidence” in Elam. His press, man-to-man style just doesn’t mesh with the Bills’ heavy zone philosophy.
    • “Hand to hand stuff...and then he's obviously 10 yards off the receiver...he will get tortured by a quality NFL receiver.”—Mike, 34:02
    • “Kair can’t balance between those. It’s a total mess for what he’s supposed to do.”—Dan, 32:48
• Next Man Up: Dorian Williams “will get on the field”—he isn’t Milano, but he “can move and he can hit.”

The Josh Allen–Stefon Diggs Narrative: Media Misinformation

• Josh defended Diggs after a sideline outburst was overblown on national TV.
  • “Josh pretty much teed off on a question...He was mad at himself for running a route or running a release....That’s not a good story. That’s not a good narrative in the national media...Josh was like, it ticks me off the way that people, like, turn this stuff.”—Dan, 36:51
• Locker Room Camaraderie:
  • “We saw three chairs. And it was Josh Allen, Gabe Davis, and Stefan Diggs having a conversation. There was no...reactionary emotion. It seemed like the conversation that teammates should have after a loss...nothing further in terms of there being resentment or frustration.”—Jenna, 39:14
• Critique of National Media:
  • “I get it. Stephen A. Smith has a huge platform...but he is not there. He does not know these players like we do.”—Jenna, 44:41

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On the Allen–Daboll Relationship:
  • “It’s like father-son at some points...They say they still talk every other week. It’s, what’s up, Miss you, Bye. It’s a special relationship.”—Dan, 01:55
• On Coaching Credit Battles:
  • “Sean McDermott wasn’t getting it as much as he probably feels he should have.”—Dan, 06:55
  • “Pride and ego...they share the same wall.”—Jenna, 12:09
• On Giants' Challenges:
  • “That roster doesn’t scare anybody, certainly offensively. No matter what Daboll knows and can do, it’s hard to do with, yeah, your average quarterback and no weapons.”—Mike, 13:26
• On Play Calling and Play Action:
  • “If you threw the ball 16 times in a row and then ran play action, guess what? The linebackers would bite.”—Dan, 22:18
• On Kair Elam’s Fit:
  • “He just doesn’t seem—the talent and the system or the talent and the technique just aren’t lining up...He looks like a guy that has his confidence rocked.”—Dan, 30:04
  • “They don’t trust him. John Butler doesn’t trust him. They don’t trust him.”—Mike, 31:36
• On Diggs and Sideline Drama:
  • “It was not at all playing into that narrative...What we saw on Sunday was just another example of the Josh Allen, Stefon Diggs being teammates and nothing further...” —Jenna, 41:12

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Timestamps for Important Segments

• 00:43 – Main topics overview and setup of Allen-Daboll relationship.
• 01:27 – Daboll’s influence on Allen, downplaying public dynamics.
• 05:08 – Daboll as “the one that got away”; philosophical differences with McDermott.
• 06:55 – Tension and ego around coaching credit/power.
• 10:09 – Emphasis on control, team-first vs. individual approach.
• 13:26 – Giants’ roster and odds; discussion of Tyrod Taylor’s potential start.
• 16:39 – Bills' offensive identity crisis; deviation from play action in London.
• 25:09 – Confidence in defense despite injuries; philosophy on adapting.
• 30:04 – Kair Elam’s struggle with fit and his shaken confidence.
• 36:51 – Josh Allen’s strong defense of Stefon Diggs; media narratives.
• 39:14 – Locker-room observations supporting team unity.
• 44:41 – Jenna’s commentary on the distinction between local and national media narratives.

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Summary

This episode offered a nuanced analysis of the Bills' developmental arc under McDermott and Daboll, highlighting how ego and style differences shape a franchise. The team dissected the team's schematic regression in London, lingering offensive identity woes, and pressed the need for consistency, especially as key defensive injuries mount. Insight into locker room dynamics, especially regarding Allen and Diggs, cuts through misleading national narratives. Throughout, the show balances insider expertise with the fans’ emotional pulse, giving listeners a true “inside the building” perspective.

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Transcript

[A]

We were talking about it yesterday at practice, Jenna. It didn't make the blog, but we had both joked around about it off the air. And I said, mike goes, Sean really wants to win this game. And I said, dable really wants to win this game. And Mike. And Mike responded with, sean has a much better chance of winning this game.

[B]

Yeah, that's a perfect way to put it.

[A]

Ain't that the truth?

[B]

It's literally that. Also, when you were talking, Dan, Mike, it, like, reminded me of. Yeah, Brian D. Was the one that got away.

[A]

This is the Buffalo plus podcast, brought to you by Connors and Ferris.

[B]

All right, welcome back to the Buffalo plus podcast, presented by Connors and Ferris, Mike Catalana, Dan Bates. I am Jenna Cottrell. We're talking the Bills, Brian Dable coming to town. Him and Josh Allen's dynamic, the injuries to this team, as well as where the Bills are at now. Please be sure to, like, comment and subscribe to the podcast, as well as share it with friends. And please be sure to follow along on Stitcher, Apple podcasts, Spotify, wherever you listen. All right, guys, let's talk about it. Brian Dable coming back to town. Dan, we know he has been so influential to Josh Allen's career. What do you make of this matchup heading in, especially a guy who, you know, means so much to Allen as well as the team.

[A]

Yeah, he means a lot to what this team is now. He's a big part of the building block of what this team is, and for you can't downplay his importance. And Josh was asked multiple times how important Dable was in the grand scheme of his football career to getting him to where he is today. And at one point he said he's the most influential. And then he kind of backtracked and said he's one of the most. And then he also said, there are a lot of hands that went into this. Like, I think that Josh specifically, and I know Sean McDermott did, are trying to downplay this. It's almost like you're looking in the past. It's almost like, how much did you love your ex girlfriend? Like, like, it's almost like, hey, like, you're trying to be like, hey, moving forward. Like, we're great now. Like, everything's good over here. But I went back and just like, all I had to do is search through my tweets of Josh Allen and Brian D to see how many times Josh said, I love him, not only as a coach, but as a person. I love the guy DL saying, I love him you know, like pretty much father, son relationship at some point, like where they, where they came from. So it's an interesting dynamic. They say they still talk about every other week. They FaceTime. The conversations are short. It's what's up, Miss you, bye. It's a special relationship that those two have. There's no getting around it. I think they are trying to downplay it heading into Sunday night because it is a just another game. The Giants are a disaster and the Bills have injury problems and just need to get a win.

[C]

Yeah, I'm with Dan on that. I think he wants to play it down because, you know, these guys are the opponent this week and Josh is a competitor and he's going to want to destroy the Giants. I mean, that's the way you play in this league. I think there's also an element of, there have been a lot of would it be cooks in the kitchen for Josh Allen through his career, whether Dan, you did a story back with his high school coach, his college coach, like, think about what that development was like, you know, and then Dable got him as this first round draft pick in the NFL and helped elevate him to starter and became franchise quarterback. So that's probably certainly on a national scale, that's what everybody saw. But I also think he wanted to be respectful to everybody else. And Jenna, then there's the other element where, you know, there's a little Brian Dable, Sean McDermott. Ah, what would I say?

[B]

Awkward energy.

[C]

Oh, that's it. That's. That's it. There is. And look, we love Dable. We love him, but his team, the talent stinks. That is not a good football team. And I don't care how good of a coach you are. And I think he's a great coach. He doesn't have a lot there. And I don't know what they were thinking, the way they operated this year. So, you know, Sean McDermott understands. I think Josh has a lot of respect for Dable and they work together, but it's a few days to the game, like the love fest will end and go play the game.

[A]

Yeah, we were, we were talking about it yesterday at practice, Jenna. It didn't make the blog, but we had both joked around about it off the air and I said, mike goes, Sean really wants to win this game. And I said, dable really wants to win this game.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And Mike. And Mike responded with, sean has a much better chance of winning this game.

[B]

Yeah, that's a perfect way to put it.

[A]

Ain't that the truth?

[B]

It's literally that also when you were talking Dan, Mike, it like reminded me of Brian Dable was the one that got away. Like, like the way the romantic. Really if you. It's not a romantic relationship, but if you were to put. Play it off of that and. No, I mean that. That's the thing. I think the awkward energy that you talk about, Mike, is just the different philosophies. I feel like for people who want the curtain pulled back a little bit, this is the different philosophies of like, you know, Brian D. Felt like he wanted this like high flying offense ran through Josh Allen in terms of his playmaking ability. Whereas we even heard Sean McDermott say at training camp, like a physical identity is what this team wants. And those are obviously at kind of opposite ends of the spectrum. Spectrum. And I think you're right. Like Dable also really wants to win this game to prove like, hey, I'm. I'm better off without you type of thing. But at the same point, I mean, damn, like where the Giants are at. I almost last year they performed so well that it was like you knew it was going to be a tougher schedule. You knew the expectations. Like last year, this. No one was expecting the Giants to do anything. The way this went into the season with the roster structuring and things like that, like people were not going to be surprised by the Giants and that's almost been a hindrance to this team because it kind of. Mike reminds me of when Sean McDermott came in and he made the playoffs in the first season and then that next year where this was a little bit different. They took the roster down to the studs and kind of relied on trying to build things up from there. But Dan, my thing is though, like, D knows Josh Allen so well. The only way I feel like the Giants could be in this game is exploiting the things that he knows Josh Allen does not do well. But can he even have the capacity to do that?

[A]

No. Yeah, that's the thing. I don't think he doesn't have the bodies to do it. And offensively I just don't see how they're going to move the ball. And we were talking about it yesterday too at practice. The fact of. Jenna, head coaches in the NFL are control freaks, right? They want everything the way that they want it. That's how they've gotten to be head coaches because they are so driven in focus and all of those things. Sean McDermott definitely got a little annoyed that he wasn't getting as much credit for Turning the Bills into a Super bowl contending team. That Brian Dable turning Josh Allen and the Bills offense became the story. It wasn't the Bills top five defense that was talked about as much. It was Josh Allen, Brian Dable, the. These offensive guys, look at what they're doing. I think that was part of the power struggle. I think that was part of it, of who gets the most credit. Sean McDermott wasn't getting it as much as he probably feels he should have.

[C]

All right. I know Jenna well enough. I know you well enough. You and I are in the same spot here. I don't believe Sean McDermott starts his day saying, why am I not getting the credit? Yeah, but you're the head coach of an NFL team. You have given away. Given away, delegated a huge part of your team to another person. Right. It's. Josh Allen is not hanging with the head coach.

[A]

Correct.

[C]

And so he. It is a great way to develop the quarterback. But when you're Sean McVay in LA, like, you know, you've got your quarterback, whether it was golf or, you know, you know, now he's got. Let's say then you won the super bowl with him. Stafford, you're connecting like a Kyle Shanahan.

[A]

Like a Kyle Shanahan.

[C]

You're known all the time for the quarterback and the head coach can't do that when you're a defensive coach. Yeah. I don't know if you guys are aware of this this year against now Brian Dabel's offense, But, Jenna, Sean McDermott calls the plays on the Bills defense, so he really is. Even though they'll say Mike Kafka. I think they'll say. And they say Kafka calls plays. Right.

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

Okay, whatever. This is Brian D's offense against Sean McDermott's defense. And I think Dan's point is correct. That McDermott. I. I don't think it's like, credit. Like, look how good I am. It's maybe shine.

[A]

It's ego.

[C]

It. There is an ego, but not a public ego. Like, I want everybody to say how great I am. It's like, know I don't want it to be the Josh Allen show, and I'm just along. You know, he does clap.

[B]

Correct.

[C]

I don't think that's the deal.

[A]

Correct.

[C]

Am I. Am I?

[B]

I. I agree. I feel like there was maybe if resentment is too strong, but I think that there was some tones of tension.

[C]

Y.

[B]

Maybe because they were so different and were viewed very differently in their attachment to why the team was successful.

[C]

Different.

[B]

Like Sean is like, oh, he's the head coach. He's the head coach. But it's like, oh, well, Brian Dable has done all of this.

[A]

And Johnny, you made the point philosophies. Sean wanted to be a physical team, and Brian Dable's like, well, we don't have a physical roster, so let me do what I'm doing kind of thing. I think they butted heads there. And Sean, while, again, Sean is team. You ask him about a player, he says he talks about the whole position group, and then he talks about the whole side of the ball. Like, that's what he does. He does not make anything individually, but. But he does want to have control. And with control comes praise or blame. And that's also what's happened with the defense when. When you take control of something. We talked about Sean wanting more control of the defense.

[B]

Like, yeah, yeah.

[A]

Leslie Frazier got a lot of the blame at times and got some of the praise. So you move forward from there. So that's what I'm saying. I'm not saying that. That Sean sits there at night watching NFL Network going, why is nobody complimenting me on my team? That's not what I'm saying.

[B]

That doesn't seem as.

[A]

As he has his malted milkshake at night. Like, it's the fact of a matter of him just going, whoa, whoa, that's one.

[C]

He's not having one every night. No.

[A]

Oh, you're right. It's once a month, this treat. But, yeah, that's where I'm at. I guess.

[C]

I. Dan, I also think, you know, I think their relationship was good. Look, they've coached against each other before. Like, it used to be with New England. Maybe it was different in the terms of what the control was. But, you know, sometimes when people work together for a long time, there's occasions when, you know, somebody's ways can get a little annoying. Like, I mean, look, Dan, you and I put up with it, but we love her. But there's times when, you know.

[B]

Yeah. There's times where Mike have my Nerf gun ready to go. No, that's fair. I think that's pretty normal. Like, that's. It makes sense to me that. Like that. But also, I think the pride piece for these two guys is also at play.

[C]

And ego. Ego is the right word.

[B]

Ego. Yeah, you're right. Ego is a piece of it. But I think pride and ego are. They share the same wall.

[C]

Yeah. And look, I'm. I'm on the Giants here saying this. Like, I just don't like their roster and Dan started to make the point about where they were. I'm a little surprised. Look, is it saying they couldn't come in and win an Orchard Park? Sure they could win but I'm looking at that roster like fellas, like, I'm surprised you sort of and would have been like the Bills holding on to. To Rod Taylor. It's kind of interesting that he may be. By the time this gets out, maybe they'll announce that Taylor's playing. It didn't look good for Jones. But yeah, it's kind of like saying, well, you know, we made the playoffs and you know, Darren Waller like, I just don't see what. What Josh needed. Right. What did Josh need? He as good as she was. He needed talent around him to. To bring that out and for Dable, I mean. And look, we know Joe Shane is a talented guy and being thinks a lot of them but like, man, that roster doesn't scare anybody anybody certainly offensively. So no matter what day bold knows and can do correct. It's hard to do with yeah. Your average quarterback and no weapons.

[A]

Dable was talking yesterday and he was asked about Josh and yeah, obviously he gave one of the most. There have been coaches that praise Josh Allen. I don't know if anybody's ever opposing coaches ever praised Josh the way he is saying that he can run, put on the tape. He does everything exceptional. He can throw, he can roll to his right, throw to his left. He can put the ball wherever he wants. All these things. And after about 65 seconds about Josh and then he goes and they got Dawson Knox and he was there and he goes. They got Stefan Diggs and they got Gabe Davis and I'm familiar with. And he goes and their offensive line is intact and all these. And it was like. That was like he's like standing outside the window of like a romantic comedy. Like, look at that team. Like, oh, the weapons and the talent.

[C]

It was like he was scrolling through. Well, maybe it would have been Facebook or Instagram now gone.

[A]

Oh yeah, yeah, that was. That was nice.

[B]

And would have been.

[A]

Yeah as he's got, you know, us three blocking for his, you know, quarterback that's highly overpaid and you know, his. His best players injured and can't really do anything.

[B]

Yeah, that's. You can't really. Yeah, you're right. You can't really do much with that. And but here's the thing. The Bills need a win so bad. Like at this point where they're at Mike, I mean we saw how I don't think. I think dejected. Is it just where the team was coming off of that loss to Jacksonville in London and all of the injuries piling up like they have a stretch coming up. What is it? It's the Giants, it's the Patriots, the Bucks, the Bengals, the. The. The Broncos. Like, there's a stretch here where the Bills really need to, like, what do you need to see from them here? Because first of all, on Sunday night, like, they need a win back. But where do you think this team is at, considering now with all these injuries?

[C]

It's kind of funny that they bookended these performances because they were great in the middle three. The defense was dominant. The offense just rolled. People. Dan's made a point and he can make it again, too, about the way they played offense and then they didn't want to do it in London for whatever reason. Where are they? They're three and two. They. They've. I would say, look, I think Jacksonville is a good opponent with a good quarterback, really good wide receiver. Like, I give him even more than that guy could be really, really good. He can throw the ball. Super bowl winning. Coach some studs on defense. Like, that's not a bad team. That team was in the playoffs last year. You know, the jets are the jets with a great defense and that's what it was. But when I say give it away, they should be four and one.

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

And. And you could certainly make an argument for 5, 0. And I think they know that. But, man, you start giving these away and you know they'll always have to fight back with that jets game in the division. They're going to have to fight back with this Jags loss in the conference. So I think it's disappointing at that point. And you're right, it doesn't matter now. You just got to start winning games, piling up the wins. If you're not playing great, play better down the road when you got to get there. But this team should be better than three and two. There's no question in my mind.

[B]

Dan, that's a frustrating part.

[A]

Yeah. I think what's most frustrating about the Jags loss is it seemed like it was one step forward and two steps back, especially offensively. Meaning what has this team lacked since Brian Dable left? And actually, maybe even at times when Dable was here was a lack of identity on offense. And for those three games that we talked about, Vegas, Washington, and then against Miami, they had an identity and it was Josh Allen under center and Josh Allen doing play action. And while you guys were in London. I'm sitting there watching the game after it was over and I'm going, why didn't I see that? And then I remembered back to the four to five big plays that they had and I went, oh, that was play action. That was, that was play action. The long throated digs, the, the touchdown to, to digs, all these things. I'm going, oh, that was, that was really good play action. And I went and I looked it up. The Bills ran 58 snaps offensively, 47 of them were out of the shotgun. That's 81% out of the shotgun for a team that statistically. And Josh Allen is maybe right now statistically the best under center thrower in the NFL and he's the best passer in the league on play action. And caveat, you don't need to run the ball for play action to work. Mike and I talked about it yesterday. Like if I, if I believe that the salary cap, like my things that I'm really passionate about, that the salary cap isn't real and Daniel passionate about things then, then what? I believe that you don't need to run the ball for play action. Work is up here. Like it, it's unbelievable. So the fact that they only ran five plays of play action and I know some people are like, well they were behind in the game. That's why they ran so many plays with a shotgun. They were never down more than two scores in Jacksonville against Jacksonville and London like this thought that like they needed to throw the ball and be in this hurry. They didn't. They were down 11 points like, and they only had seven going into the fourth quarter. They went three and out. All three plays were out of the shotgun. They went three and out again, all three plays are out of the shotgun. They punted again. Four out of the five plays. We're out of the shotgun. Like it made me concerned where I was starting to compliment Ken Dorsey and all of a sudden it's like, Dan, why would you ever go back on what you thought? You were right the first time like this was, this was concerning to me. Where'd they go from here? And Ken was asked about it on Monday during his media availability and he's like, it's what Josh feels comfortable with. And all these things like comfortability is one thing. What works and what you're successful at should be also what, what factors into that a lot. So, so I'm a little bit concerned on where this offense goes from here because again, it seemed like we had one step Forward, and we're taking two steps back.

[B]

Mike, like, why do you think they were so hesitant to run? Play, act?

[C]

You know, I. I do think there is some element to what Josh likes. Now, look, he can be successful if you. If you sat Josh down and say, are you more successful there? Whatever it is, you know, the way he feels, he feels he can make it work, whatever they're doing. And maybe there is some element to that. Even Dable has talked about that a lot. They go over stuff. What plays does he like? What's he comfortable with? I mean, you are running everything through your quarterback. I just thought maybe, you know, because they were all so tired from the flight that they weren't allowed to run under center. They. They. Maybe there was an NFL experiment to see how you doing the shot. I'm talking about the. The theories as to why they lost. I bring that up because I'm looking at that team in that game, and it's so easy to just set it aside and go, well, you know, they should have flown out there two days earlier. Yeah, maybe that would have helped. Would have also helped to not lose Milano and to miss on some open plays and to, you know, Naquan Jones.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

You know, those kind of things that happen with them. But in terms of why they did that, you know, Jenna, this league, it used to be, and it wasn't that long ago, the teams were who they are, and they did it basically every week, and you had to stop it, and everybody kind of knew. And I think, really, I got to give. Even though he's getting roasted now, I give Belichick credit because I think the Patriots really felt like the first team that would constantly evolve, you know, offensively and defensively. Like, you didn't really know what they were going to do, even though they had identities, and now that's what teams do. And honestly, Jenna, sometimes I think teams outsmart themselves and they're like, everybody thinks we're going to do this. We'll do something else. Well, the thing you did worked, so maybe you should do it again and make them stop it. So I do think there is a tendency to. I'll say over coach a little bit and just instead of saying, this is what we do, go ahead and stop it.

[B]

No, honestly, that makes so much sense to me in terms of, like, the fluidity of which they want to keep evolving. And, like, this team does this well, so we'll do this even though this is not our skill set. It's like sometimes you're. You're thinking you're overthinking it. And usually that's, you know, I get it. There's so much care and preparation that goes into everything. But, I mean, those numbers don't lie. From Alan. And it's. I, I was thinking, Dan, I think you'll get this reference. Mike, I don't know about you, but there' like a gif of a woman, like, trying to eat a piece of broccoli. Do you know what I'm talking about? It was like a TLC show and she's holding the plate and she's like, trying to eat this piece of broccoli and she's just like, she can't do it. And it was just reminding me so much of Dan being like, why isn't play action a thing right now? Just like, you know, it's what you need to do. But it's like, I just, I, I don't want to do it.

[A]

But I, I go back, I was joking around with Mike. If you threw the ball 16 times in a row and then ran play action, guess what? The linebackers would bite and the safeties would bite because they're, they would think there's no way they'll throw it 17 times. And then if you run play action again, they'll be like, well, there's no way that they can run throw it 18 times. Linebackers are inherently aggressive. They want to stop the run. And when Josh turns his back to the defense, for whatever reason, maybe Josh doesn't feel comfortable, but the defense doesn't either because they don't know what Josh is going to do. And that's where it's kind of frustrating for me, where it's like, it's working. No, if it's not broke, don't fix it.

[C]

And to Dan's point, it's not always like the linebacker is in no man's land. It is a pause. We all like the pause. It's the pause pause. But everybody keeps talking about the tight ends and getting them involved. Just think of this. You get that linebacker to bite. You get now Kincaid deep of the linebacker, short of the safety. I'm simplifying here. You know, I don't want to go into too much all 22 detail for you, but it is a part where it's like, quick, boom, there's Knox, there's Kincaid in that spot, or there's Diggs, because that linebacker. And I do think, you know, there are times teams evolve, right? And maybe they're going to look back at that and go a little self scouting this week and Go. We got away from what we're good at. I also thought, Jenna and I tried to ask Josh this and he went around in circles on the answer. But when they lose that rhythm and pace, you know, the old Bills, what they ended up doing was going no huddle all the time. Which sounds, some teams do it, but they were like, that was the shot, the, the, their, their offense with Ted March, the way they ran it and they just, it just got them going all the time. And the K gun, I don't know why I couldn't think of it. And I, I sometimes think like that can be a conscious thing where you go, we've struggled three and out, we've done this, let's get moving and move it at a quicker pace. And I think they lost some of that too in the game because they weren't having success. So I do think with the problems that are on defense right now, I think this offense is going to need to be piling up a few more points. I mean, the defensive thing, great, but man, you're missing some studs on that defense now.

[B]

Yeah, the way to win is the formula has changed. It's like you need to outscore opponents and you need to, it's almost like they need to like reinforce, like double up on their, not double up on their offense, but like you need to double down, I guess, and be like, this is our strong suit. We need to play into this because, you know, you're not going to, you know, be defensively as stout as you once were.

[A]

I still believe this defense and in Sean McDermott, this defense still, without Daquan Jones, Matt Milano and Trey White, can still be a top 10 defense in the league. I don't expect them to all of a sudden turn into some sieve that is going to get marched up and down the field on. I still believe that this defense can be quality and still force turnovers and all those things. But again, it's probably not going to be holding teams to 10 to 13 points. It's probably going to be 20 points, which you could still find. But again, again, it's crazy to say this, more concerned about the offense than I am, to some respects, philosophy wise than I am. The defense, the defense is the system. Not that you can, you can't replace those guys and, and Sean McDermott said that, but you can work your defense to highlight now what you do have instead of lacking what you, what you've lost.

[B]

All right, well, at least in the defense too, you have a reason why they won't. Maybe Be like, you're missing an All Pro. And Mount Milano, you're missing a guy who was All Pro. And Trey White, Daquan Jones going out was a huge piece of that defensive line and how they were able to get so much pressure, whereas on offense, it's like, what's wrong, Janet?

[C]

I'm also in the past, and I'm talking about two years ago and before. You just felt. If you're a Bills fan, you just felt this sense of comfort with Poyer and Hyde. Yeah, we all love watching Poyer and Hyde. It's been awesome for the franchise. They are an iconic duo. They are something that I don't think. They had some very good safeties. Mark Kelso and. And back in the day, they had some really good players, but they've never had anything like this. But the days of that being a. The. The lead, of your defense, of it starts in the back. Remember we talked about that?

[A]

Yep.

[C]

I'm not saying these guys can still play. They're smart, they're tough, they're all those things. But I think that part makes it tougher now because, you know, the secondary has been a little nicked up. I was thrilled with the secondary. They. They just, you know, with all the injuries. You mentioned Trey and now you take Milano out. I think that part is concerning, especially with some of the offenses we're going to see, you know, the rest of the way. So it's more like a. It's not, you know, I see people. This guy's washed. Everybody likes to say everybody's washed. You know, that's such a. I don't know. Go talk to people. Go. Go really watch them play. I don't think people are washed, but, you know, they played at a high, high level. I don't know if they're still getting that out of those two right now.

[B]

Yeah, no. Well, and then there's like, Kair Elam. That's another piece of.

[C]

I don't know what you do.

[B]

I don't know what you do either. And he has no trade value. Like, you're not gonna. What are you gonna get for him?

[A]

You're like, yeah, Miami game.

[C]

Yeah. I mean, it. It's really. Honestly, there is a big disconnect there. I mean, it's like they put him in because they had to. And. And look, Dan, he could get traded and end up playing well somewhere else. That might be the case. Obviously, man has talent. Brandon Bean's not dumb. He sees talent, but it's just not working. And there is no. No confidence in with the coaching staff. And I give him credit. He talked again yesterday, Jenna, you know, we talked to him after the game. I give him credit.

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

For stepping up. And, and he didn't. He just said I have to do. And that's, that's good. That's what he should be doing. The truth is the rest of this year they still may. They need him to play like he's.

[B]

Going to Dane Jackson with a foot injury like that could be.

[C]

But that is a, that's a big piece there.

[A]

To get benched in the final stretch for Jamarcus Ingram is rough. The fact that I know, I think it was Devin McCourty tweeted, you know, on that the crucial third down, Micah Hyde was covering Calvin Ridley. And he's like, you can't put a safety on Calvin Ridley. And it's like, well, they tried their corner and that wasn't working either. So it's like, what else are you gonna do?

[B]

Indictment on Kairo 100.

[C]

And you heard after high after the game again, without saying it, he's like, you know, everybody's got to do their job, including me. I mean there was some other things going on in that play. I think they were trying to get to the quarterback guys didn't get there. But yeah, at that point, you know, look at what they had out on the field. And it ended up. If you had to look at that, what they had on the field, you'd say, well, who would you trust back there? He doesn't have the speed, but he's, he knows what he's doing. And, and it was a great route, a great throw.

[A]

Great throw.

[C]

Basically won the game for, for the Jacks.

[A]

So I, I just want to say one last thing on, on Elam because I know there are so many Elam defenders out there and why isn't he getting these playing times and, and you guys talked about like confidence like that. There's no confidence there, especially in his game. You can just watch it. He just doesn't seem the talent and the system or the talent and the technique just aren't lining up. And I don't need to be Some All Pro 22 to All Pro guy to like realize that. What, what is most concerning to me is that I remember when he got drafted and that first training camp and all of those things. He had this swagger about him. Like he had a sense of confidence. Like, look at my book. I'm, I've got this, I do this. I'm such a hard worker. I do all these things now you, you see him after games and after, after practices like he looks like a deer in headlights. Like, I'm trying to figure it out. I'm going to keep working harder. And it's like that looks like a guy that has his confidence rocked. And last year he talked about the fact that he had never struggled. He had never struggled in his entire NFL career. He picked up playing football in seventh grade and he's never struggled. He's now struggling. And again, I'm not trying to, I don't mean to say that he's mentally weak. That's not what I'm saying. I'm not trying to put words into Kair's head or anything like that, but I'm just saying, like what it looks like is a guy that is lacking confidence, that has not gone through this before and to his benefit. I guess the coaching staff really isn't doing much to it is what it is like.

[C]

Like they don't trust him. They don't, they don't trust him at all. John Butler doesn't trust him. They don't trust him.

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

And if, you know, we've talked about this a lot, Jenna, like, especially in the secondary, they gotta trust guys to be in the spot. That's why Dane plays. It's why Levi always played. He trusted those guys, you know, so this is, this isn't evolving. I will say this to Dan's point. I do trust McDermott, especially with this team and, and guys in the secondary.

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

If you can't make it work with this, this guy in the secondary, that's where. Because how many guys in the secondary have, have failed three years.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

Where like you look and go, this guy just can't play. Very, very rare. Like it seems like, I mean, look.

[B]

Davis, I was literally like, that was the. Okay, hold on. My thing that I keep coming back to is like Kair is such a, a manto man, press guy. And like the Bills play so much zone. Like it just doesn't. Like Phil philosophically, like, yeah, that to me is always. It just doesn't align with one another.

[A]

And again, the other thing too of that, Jenna, is that the Bills and Sean McDermott, they don't blitz. First of all, we all thought they were going to be more aggressive with blitzing. They are. They blitz the least percentage out of anybody in the entire NFL through five weeks. Unbelievable. Now their pressure rate is still like top three. They're getting there because of how dominant at Oliver has been, how dominant Greg Russo has been, all of those things. But we thought like, they're not sending any extra guys. The front four is just winning. But what Sean McDermott does do is disguise very well. And you can see Kair being stuck in between because he doesn't have the technique. He's trying to hide what you're doing and because of that, you're then being out of position at what you're trying to hide and get into. So it's almost like, I don't know how to play this, but I know I'm supposed to show one thing but get into another thing and I can't do either. It's a, it's a. Right now, it is a total mess for what he's supposed to. Like I said, it's disguising coverage is what McDermott does. And Kair can't balance between those. He's going to show press, but he needs to play in zone. Okay. Yeah, he's not getting the press. He's wrong spacing anything like that. It's not good.

[B]

Well, yeah, it's like his biggest strength is that hand to hand stuff. And then he's obviously 10 yards off the receiver.

[C]

So in the technique, Jenna, is you, you're that much off, you will get tortured by a quality NFL receiver.

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

And Calvin Ridley is a heck of a player. And when he had those. Always gets your hips the wrong way. Just giving, showing something. They just own you. I mean, Tyreek Hill makes a. I mean, everybody knows how fast he is. He just, he sees it and just attacks it. And that, that's what the best receivers do. And you, you line up now this week.

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

This team is not loaded with wide receivers, but there's guys who will still burn you if you put the wrong technique out there.

[B]

Well, too. You talked confidence like the Jags were picking on Kair Elam. And what does that do to your confidence when you know, like, I don't know about you guys, but that's, that's not gonna help you feel better about yourself. And you're like, I looked at the.

[A]

Box score and I went, Whoa. Kair had 11 tackles. And Mike goes, that's never a good thing when you're a corner because that means the guy in front of you is catching it and then you're tackling them.

[C]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, it's tough. But by the way, one quick last thing on the defense, I'm really intrigued by Dorian Williams. I just see flashes of him. You can see the athlete that he is. Now look, again, we talk about trust. I give Tyrell Dotson. He looked, he, he was effective. He helped them in there. You know, they like AJ Klein in moments, but, you know, there's part of me that starts to go, let's see what they really think. There's. There's a. There's a big learning curve for him. This isn't even Terrell Bernard.

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

You know, who had a whole year with the team. This is new for him. But I think this guy's going to get on the field. I think he's going to make a couple of plays. He's not going to be Matt Milano. No one is. But. But I think he's. He's. He does. He is an athlete. There is no question that guy can move and he can hit people. So that's encouraging, I think.

[B]

Yeah. And maybe it's like you kind of give, depending on what's going on, like, who you're more comfortable with. For passing downs, maybe it's.

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

Dorian Williams. And then for running what you expect to be running downs, it's Tyrell Dodson. Yeah, you're right. I have a. I have confidence in Sean McDermott. And for fans I saw that were like, oh, the Bills are so injured. I get it. The injuries, like, they have been so many. But at the same point, a lot of teams I feel like this season in particular are just. Have really been dealing with the injury bug. So it's.

[C]

The last two years have been brutal for the Bills. If you think of it, really, they went through a great stretch, and last year and this year, it's like it's. It is substantial.

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

And it's the key. Key players.

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

All right. Anything else, gentlemen?

[A]

I wanted to bring up one more thing. Josh, we talked about his relationship with Brian Dable, things like that. Interesting. He pretty much where he talked about. Josh is really good with the media, not saying anything. He can kind of like Mike said, he asked him a question. He kind of just tiptoes around it so he doesn't have to say anything. But he pretty much teed off on a question. It was like he was waiting for a chance to stick up for Stefan Diggs. Obviously. There was a clip in London of Stefan Diggs throwing the tablet down easily. It's clipped by everybody and says, look at how upset Stefan Diggs is. He's not happy. Josh was asked about it, to which Josh quickly said he was mad at himself for running a route or running a release, that he was upset about that he ran the wrong release of the route. So. But again, that's not a good story. Like, that's Not a good narrative in the national media. And so not only that, Johnny, you've been down on the sidelines the last two games. I've been on the sidelines the first three. The fact of how vocal Stefan Diggs is.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Is staggering. And we've seen the clip of. Even when it was the jets game, and he kind of went up to Josh, he's like, we're good. Like, we're good. Like, you got this. How much of a leader he has been. But that quickly gets brushed off as Diggs is a diva. Digs on the sidelines. It goes back to the Cincinnati game, all of these things. And Josh was like, it ticks me off the way that people, like, turn this stuff. And then when people talk about him, it ticks me off. And I, again, for all the people think that there's the disconnect. And again, it's. It's. Mike, I can teed up to you for the national media that you want to critique on, but I do find it funny where it's like, Stephen A. Smith probably hasn't watched more than four snaps of a Bills game, but he sees that clip and goes, josh Allen and Stefan Diggs, they're not good. He wants out. And, like, all of a sudden becomes like, that becomes it. And it's just so. It was interesting that Josh teed off on a question that was kind of nonchalantly about Steph and. And how the relationship's going with Steph. And he kind of just went off on it, which I thought was really cool for Josh to stick up for Diggs when a chance that he got.

[C]

To Jenna real quick. We walk in the locker room after the game. Very disappointing game. And put the context is what we say, it wasn't anything massive. But what we saw when we walked in.

[B]

Yeah, we saw three chairs. And it was Josh Allen, Gabe Davis, and Stefan Diggs having a conversation. There was no. You could. Like, we've all seen conversations. It just looked like kind of a. A talk about, like, okay, we did this. Maybe we should do this. It's like, so specifically, I was. There was no, like, reactionary emotion. There wasn't, like, throwing chairs. There wasn't bad body language. It just looked like the three guys were, like, talking about, like, we could do this better or what if we try this? Like, it seemed like the conversation that teammates should have after a loss trying to go over the plan of how to do things better. Like, there was no emotion whatsoever.

[A]

Boring story. Jenna, the media, no body language.

[B]

Well, I got text messages on the sidelines. Like, while I was at the game, like, I saw the clip of Diggs, like, what's going on? All this stuff. And I'm like, I think what's really important for fans to understand is players in the moment, on the field can be very reactionary, but it's almost like every series is a clean slate. Like, people in. It's the heat of the moment, people are reacting, and then it moves on to the next thing that's right ahead. It's not this, like. And I get it, like, the way last season ended compared to where we are now are two completely different feelings. Diggs even talked to us after the game on Sunday. Like, we weren't sure if he was going to talk. He came to the podium, he was calm, he was poised. He talked about what went wrong for the game, what the team needs to do better. It was not at all playing into that narrative. And I get why Josh would be like, you know what? I'm going to take this opportunity to kind of clear the air. Because what we saw on Sunday was just another example of the Josh Allen, Stefan Diggs being teammates and nothing further in terms of there being resentment or frustration between the two.

[C]

And one last thing on that, and just some context for people, you kind of get this. But he said it on a Wednesday. He's not saying it at the end of a game, and maybe he hadn't even talked to him. It's like, it's a Wednesday. It's a nice, calm day, and he's sitting there going, hey, cut the crap here with this.

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

Because it really is. It's overblown. Like, we see them all the time. I mean, he even has a nickname for him. He called him Sleepyhead.

[A]

Sleepyhead.

[C]

So, yeah. They're buddies, by the way. Janet, can we. Can we mention the. We can mention the one other thing that we saw as we were leaving the locker room, leaving the media room, you and I walking out. As we were leaving in the tunnel, we looked to the right. Oh, yeah, you can say. Because it was on tv, I think.

[B]

Was it on tv?

[C]

Yeah. Yeah. There was shots. Yeah.

[B]

Oh, Josh and his girlfriend were leaving the game.

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

Obviously, Josh was going to the bus to get on the team plane, but that was the first time that I had seen them together.

[C]

Yeah. Yeah. Like, so it's not. Not the Taylor Swift yelling up and down, but no, no.

[A]

Hey, Mike, when we were on the shuttle landing in Washington, there was a guy, and he explained to us that Josh Allen played poorly in New York because his Girlfriend's family was at the game, and that was why he played so poorly. Swear to God, honest conversation. We're in the shuttle, and this Bills fan is talking to another guy that didn't want anything to talk to him about, and he's going, the reason Josh played so bad was because his girlfriend was there at the game with her family, and he was trying to impress them. So that's why he played so poorly.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

Word for word, what was said. I know Mike and I wanted to jump off the shuttle.

[C]

Yeah. And by the way, we also had somebody who, I don't know, potentially covers the team, who told me the wrong Allen was playing after that game.

[A]

It's also true.

[B]

Yeah, yeah, that's. That's true as well. No, I think to kind of hammer it home, though, for people, like, there is so much emotion that goes into these games and on the sidelines, you're gonna see that. But I truly believe for these players, like, it is like a clean slate. Like, there are times where you talk to a guy and he's like, I don't even remember that. It's kind of the heat of the moment type of thing. And I bet Diggs was upset. I bet he was pissed off that he, you know, ran the round wrong route, wrong release, because he knows what he means to this team and how if he did one thing differently, it could have led to a different result. But.

[C]

And what did he say after the game? I asked him about the deep ball, and he's like, I love my quarterback, gives me a shot, and I didn't come through. And we're working on it. I take it as a positive. I. You can't give a better answer than that as an NFL player.

[B]

Yeah. You have to. I think it's important to listen to the post game interview as well, because I think that shows you a lot about the headspace and the tone of where someone is at. And Diggs had. I mean, he was calm and collected. Obviously, he was disappointed in the loss, but. But it's not the same. It's not. That's why I. Okay, real quick. I'm gonna get out of my soapbox. I feel like what the job of our, like, local reporters, what we do, is so important because we are with this team day in and day out. We are there. We see them, they. We know their personalities. They know ours. Like, I get it. Stephen A. Smith, he has a huge platform, bigger than I will ever have in my entire life, and whatever lives I have to come, but he is not there. He does not know these players like we do. So.

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

Done with it. I don't like stirring the pot just to stir the pot. Like, life is too complicated for that anyways.

[C]

Yeah. By the way, if you want to see an element of that on reacting, just type in Jason Kelsey in la. Did you. Do you see him flipping out on the sidelines in the Eagles game with Nick Sirianni? And it was about. It was a snap and they got a penalty. He's like, you don't usually see that out of him. This guy's been in the league forever, losing his mind on the sidelines, totally animated. If you don't know any better, you're like, he's screaming at. We have no context to what it was, but it's. They're highly competitive people. And what were you gonna say?

[B]

No, I'm only laughing because if you see us doing our jobs in the heat of the moment, sometimes it's not.

[C]

I know.

[B]

Prettiest.

[C]

Yeah. You know, like, it's like going in the stadium and things get a little. Little screwy.

[B]

Yeah. And then it's fine.

[C]

Yeah. And it's fine.

[B]

Mike, I forgive you. I'm kidding. I'm kidding.

[C]

No, Dan, I've. I've been forgiven.

[A]

No comment.

[B]

No, I'm joking. But. But, yeah. All right, we want to leave it here. Like, comment. Subscribe to the channel. If you enjoy our podcast, be sure to check it out on Stitcher, Apple Podcast, Spotify. Wherever you find your podcast, please be sure to subscribe to the channel on YouTube as well. We always appreciate it. For Mike and Dan, I am Jenna. Please remember to check out the buffalo plus store, buffaloplusstore.com you get free shipping on any orders over $25, that is. Oh, that reminds me, gentlemen, we got our to go mugs, so I will bring those to the station today. We also have our live show coming up on Thursday nights at 7:00'. Clock. Be sure to check it out on YouTube. Oh, yeah.

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

For Mike and Dan, I'm Jenna. Thanks for tuning in. We'll catch you next time here on Buffalo plus, presented by Connors. And be.