← Buffalo Plus: A Buffalo Bills podcast
Buffalo Plus: A Buffalo Bills podcast
The STATE of the BILLS OFFENSE: Expectations, CONCERNS and JOSH bleeping ALLEN
00:47:43
Mike, Jenna and Dan give their thoughts on the State of the Bills' Offense on the latest episode of the Buffalo Plus Podcast.
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A
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C
Limited availability pickup through participating Hyundai dealer in select markets.
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A
It's a lot to put on that guy year in and year out. And he won the mvp. Not because of his numbers. He won the MVP because people looked at it and said, look what he did with those guys.
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B
He's doing more with less.
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A
So that's my concern, like it was last year.
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C
This is the Buffalo plus podcast brought to you by Connors and Ferris.
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B
All right, welcome back to the Buffalo plus podcast presented by Connors and Ferris. Mike Catalana, Dan Fates, I am Jenna Cottrell. Please be sure to, like, comment, subscribe and share. We always appreciate it. Reminder, we have our audio podcast, Buffalo plus available wherever you find.
- [01:17]
C
Or you could share, comment and like.
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B
Yeah, yes, we did that on the video. Yes, whatever order, do it.
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A
Yes, do it.
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B
All right, we're gonna talk about the Bill's offense, the plan, what we see see, and some of the interesting numbers and the breakdown of what that could mean in the future for Buffalo. So we're going to talk all about it. We're also going to do credit to me and we're going to have some, some past Buffalo plus talk and how it plays into the future. All right, so let's start with pass catchers because I think, Mike, that is the most interesting group. And honestly, I know we usually will talk wide receiver, but the group that stands out to me is tight end.
- [01:55]
A
Yeah.
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B
And Dawson Knox and Dalton Kincaid.
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A
All right, so when you look at that group, right. Dalton Kincaid is a key to a lot of what they're going to do this year. Right. They brought him in as a first round pick. He had his injuries, there were issues. That's what the team keeps saying. So we'll wait to see in terms of where he is. But expectations for him were high from the get go. Last year was a step back. There may be reasons behind that. We will see. But they need him to be good. But I was looking at it from a roster manipulation part of it. Dan, when you look at Kincaid, he's a top draft pick first round. He's got the contract that you would expect. Four years, 13 million. And his production needs to go up for what they had. Dawson Knox's cap hit this year is the third highest on any player in the team. That is Josh Allen, Dion Dawkins. Dawson Knox, fifth highest cap hit for any tight end in the league. He's not going anywhere. It's $21 million cap hit. I think Dawson Knox is maybe one of my favorite players that I've ever covered on the Bills because I think he's a great dude. Great with the team. All those things. They paid him like a starter and then drafted over him.
- [03:07]
C
That is correct.
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A
From a roster manipulation thing. It's not great. His production is not there. But they're not doing anything with this. Right. So this is what they have. It is he and Kincaid. So you have a high draft pick who last year underperformed, and then you have a tight end, two on the team who is great dude, I'm happy for him with the money, but he's overpaid for his possession.
- [03:31]
C
Yeah, it's trying to balance out both of those things because one of them happened first. You paid Concade first.
- [03:42]
A
Knocks, knocks.
- [03:43]
C
I'm going to. Guys, I'm sorry. I'm not gonna do it. I promise. We're gonna. We're gonna get this. We're gonna get this back on the rails. You paid Knox first, so it's kind of a little bit of, you made your bed and now this is what you're lying in. And look, I. Knox has had moments.
- [04:01]
A
He.
- [04:01]
C
He's had games. And I thought it was funny in the middle of last year, there was like the time when Kincaid was out and Knox made a couple of big plays and the guys were coming up to him like, way to go, man. He's like, I've been doing this a long time. And. And that was kind of the story that Sean McDermott told. So whether or not they want to run this 11 personnel more in this kind of, you know, 12 personnel, all these kind of things, it just hasn't statistically resulted in what I think they were hoping it would evolve into.
- [04:31]
B
Yeah, I think that's fair. I. I will say, and we said this, whether it be the injuries to Dalton Kincaid at the end of last season, but we did talk about how much more confident we in Dawson Knox and just his ability to catch the ball, to make big plays, to make contested catches, all those things. But you're right. When you look at the numbers, it is Pretty. I mean we were talking about in the sports office of like who has, who has the highest cap hits on the team other than Josh Allen and Dion jumping out. But it took us a while, Dan, to. To get to Dawson Knox just because kind of an unexpected player at an unexpected position, especially considering the draft.
- [05:09]
C
Do you know how many catches Dawson Knox has the last two years combined?
- [05:15]
A
Combined, I would say he has 50.
- [05:20]
C
Lower. He has 22 in each of the last two.
- [05:24]
A
Oh, right, because I knew he had 22 last year, so 44. Yeah. And listen, his role on the team is tight end two when they play 12 personnel. He was on 60% of the snaps last year. Yeah, he is very good at his role.
- [05:36]
C
Yes.
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A
But again, when you talk about roster manipulation and this team looking for weapons and what they've used, it's a lot to designate towards tight end too.
- [05:49]
B
I think it's important to separate the artist from the art right now too. I can feel in the comments people are probably going to be like, and Dawson, amazing guy. There's. We like great player. We love talking to him, all those things. But when you look at the body of work that what Dan and Mike are talking about.
- [06:06]
A
Yeah.
- [06:06]
B
You do look at the numbers and you're like, wow, that's. That is a lot of money for 44 catches.
- [06:11]
A
And it's not all statistics. I know that's. Again, I can already read the comments. He does other things, but those guys don't get paid like this in the league. It just isn't the case. So I'm bringing that up because he's going to be there. He's not going anywhere. It really falls more on, you know, what Dawson Knox is for them. This is the player he is in that role. That's fine. They need more out of Dalton Kincaid and if he's healthy, they need big production out of him this year.
- [06:39]
C
Yeah, I guess I'm like, we can talk about Dawson's cap hit and things like that. And to me it's like splitting hair. It's like I, I don't really care. Like I know what I'm going to get out of Dawson Knox. And the expectations for Dawson Knox are pretty average, maybe below average for what you're expecting to get out of a tight end. The, the linchpin, the, the crucial point of this tight end room offense in general falls on Dalton Kincaid shoulders. It falls on the first round pick that you had high expectations for who had a solid rookie year and you hoped would develop into more and he hasn't. And I Think that the strength part that we heard at the end of the season and at the combine of he's got to get stronger, he's got to add weight, he's got to be. He's got to bulk up so that he can handle the physical grind of an NFL season is concerning to me, I just think that that's a red flag because not everybody is going to come. Like, your body size, to some respects, is your body size. Like, once they're. At this point, I don't see D. I don't see Dalton adding 20 pounds of muscle this season and coming into training camp.
- [07:50]
A
I don't know if that's necessarily what it is. I think they want to see an improvement there. But first and foremost, he's a. He's a pass catcher for this team. And I know again, people are going to point at statistics that will say uncatchable balls, especially those outside of 10 yards. There is something to that. Sure, it's nice to have the league MVP throwing you the ball. Now, there could be reasons, but those two weren't on the same page, or it just didn't work. Or maybe it was the length of target, for whatever reason, didn't match up. If you want to point to numbers that explain why his production was down last year, there are numbers out there.
- [08:30]
C
Sure.
- [08:31]
A
That can do that for you. Let's just get to the point. Like, they. They drafted him high, set a standard that they thought he would be. He showed definitely, like you think, oh, if he moves off of that and we can talk about that, he moves off of that. What could that mean for this team? Took a step back. This year is important.
- [08:50]
C
Well, and I think it's. Again, maybe it's me being petty, like, maybe Dan, maybe that's it. But I went back and looked because all. All I remember last offseason was very similar conversations. As to this year, it feels very deja vu of whether it was Bean's comments on WGR about the argument about a wide receiver is the dumbest thing ever. And look at, you know, we got to include Dalton in that. You know, he's a pass catcher, all of these things. And a lot of it hinges on there was no digs last year and there was going to be a learning curve. And everybody just said, hey, this guy's going to step up. This guy will step up, and all of these things. And I went back to look and we did a podcast, Mike and I, from Last year, on May 13, as we record this on May 15, a year later, and the similarities that we were talking about then are eerily similar to what we're talking about now a year later. Look, we're recording this on May 13, right? Understanding the season is, is so far away. But there is been this, this talk about where the Bill's offense is, what it's going to be and all of these things. And without Diggs, I think it's so, so many people are just saying, well this guy will step up and this guy will step up. And we've had these conversations before and I think a little bit of this is what are realistic expectations for filling stuff Stefan Diggs's shoes because the first one that always comes up is Duncan Kate. Well, you don't need a number one wide receiver because you have Duncan Kincaid, which I say that's a lot to ask for a second year tight end to be the focal point of your passing game attack. Progress isn't linear. Like I, I think it's realistic to some point to say that like maybe Josh doesn't have 4, 300 passing yards next year.
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A
Right.
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C
Like, like this offense can be more efficient while Josh's numbers passing without a true number one wide receiver while trying to figure out where this passing game goes. I don't think it's. Where do you want to put the over? Under 3900 if he throws for 4000 yards, I think that'd be pretty good.
- [11:04]
A
Yeah.
- [11:05]
C
Considering the circumstances that we stand at right now on May 13th. I understand Josh is Josh and we talked about how amazing he is. He's got to have some guys and some guys got to step up. If Khalil Shakir catches a thousand yards, I think that'll be awesome.
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A
Awesome.
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C
Yeah, I think that'll be awesome. I think that's a high bar for a guy, for a guy to jump. Yeah.
- [11:23]
A
I think it's hard to look at this offense and say, well, we know what this guy's going to do do because we don't have anybody in this whole roster that you know, the closest one is Kincaid and he did it for one year and there's going to.
- [11:35]
C
Be different attention now to Shakir, there's different attention to Kincaid and I'm not trying to be box score scout here and all over numbers, but like to sit there and say Dalton Kincaid is going to catch a thousand yards. He averaged 42 receiving yards a game. All I'm trying to do, and I'm not trying to rain on the parade, I'm not going to sit here and say the Bills aren't a good team or their offense. I have concerns. It's just where is this offensive, where is the production going to come from? And it's just, it's really easy to sit here and say well this guy will just have a thousand yards and well this guy, he's going to get more targets and that's how this works. I don't like putting so much pressure on players to step up to be their guy because we just saw it with Gabe Davis, we thought look at what he did. Yes, he's going to do it now when we with more opportunities. It's not always the case. Again, my last point. I've brought it up multiple times. Last 10 years there have been 23 tight ends that have had a thousand yard seasons or there have been 23 seasons of a tight end having a thousand yards. Travis Kel has seven, Greg KD has three, Gronk has three, Olsen has, Greg Olson has three, Darren Waller has two. Andrews Pits ers, Delaney, Walker and Gary Barnage are the other guys that have won. So think about all these great tight ends, Mark Andrews, Kittle, they've got one.
- [12:55]
A
Yeah, and maybe temper expectations, maybe Kincaid's that guy.
- [12:58]
C
All say is temper expectations. We were right on a lot of those things. And credit to me, and credit to us, like we'll pat ourselves on the back, like the offense was more efficient, there's no question about that. But the fact that progress is in development, isn't linear, is to sit there and say, well this year this guy's gonna get better and then this guy's gonna get better and then they always get better, every year better. That's not how this, that's how the NFL works.
- [13:22]
A
Credit to Josh Allen. Yeah, because those pass catchers were.
- [13:29]
C
And Joe Brady.
- [13:30]
A
Yes. Yeah, yeah, they made it work. And maybe that's. If you're hoping for that this year, which I'm sure most people are, and then hoping other guys maybe take other steps this year. That's great, that's. It's tough to do and especially when this offense somewhat was not built around Kincaid but it's obviously built around Josh Allen but it's built around him as a pass catcher to open things up. And you know, it's year three, it's a big year for him. A year from now they're making a decision on the fifth year. Option ship moves fast in this league. It just does. And so let's see where it is. It's a long season, a lot to come out about. Going to talk about the wide receivers but from that position. To your point, one guy meets his expectations even if he doesn't meet his salary. But hey, good for him. The other guy, not yet. So we got to see what he does this year.
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B
Could you see a world where they don't pick up his fifth year option?
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A
He would have to be that's.
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B
Yeah, I agree.
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A
Poor or there would have to be a reason behind it. I think they want this to work.
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B
Of course they do. They trade it up.
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C
I want a lot of things.
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A
I know they want this to work. So we'll see.
- [14:46]
B
I just think of like you traded up to get him. You didn't, you didn't get a wide receiver because you, you said hey, he's a pass catching tight end and this will be a huge year because you saw the, his first season of how. Okay, what will he be able to do? What are you doing, Dan?
- [15:08]
C
Nothing. It was like we were saying last year like this was going to be a big year for Kincaid to step up.
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B
Yeah. I mean the sentiment still stands because he has not lived up to the expectations yet.
- [15:19]
C
Well, and my, my point is too is that like it is tough to build your offensive ship out of a. With obviously outside your quarterback. A tight end, an undersized tight end. That is what Dalton Kincaid is like coming out of college and shout out to the Bill squad podcast. Jerry Ostrovsky, Jeremy White and Joe Marino and Jerry Ostrowski. Credit to him. He pointed out some of the things about like the, the size and weight of Kincaid and coming out of Utah he was 64246. That's what he measured at the combine. On the Bill's most current roster he measured 64240. He's lost weight according and again I'm not saying they put guys that are taller than that and things like that. So he's pretty much the same. There were only three tight ends in the league last year that weighed below 240. He is a smaller tight end like and it's tough to have that durability and that wear and tear in a physical position in a physical game. And he wants to play physical. We've seen him run over. I think it was the jets game.
- [16:23]
A
Yeah.
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C
First play of the game, put his shoulder into the cornerback and you're like that set the tempo. I remember McDermott being like that was a big thing. It's just there were three tight ends in the league last year that caught a thousand yards. Like it's a very hard bar to clear to say hey, we like this guy's receiving skills. He's, you know, the expectation of having a tight end catch a thousand yards is so, so rare.
- [16:49]
A
And also. So who was the third? Because it's Arizona.
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C
It was McBride, Bowers and KD K was weird.
- [16:57]
A
They lost all their wide receivers. He's been that player. He's been really good. But that's a losing team. Last year, Arizona has been a losing team. Vegas, a losing team. I don't think the goal is a thousand yards for the tight end, but you can be much more impactful. Four total touchdowns in two years. Getting in the end zone is. We can move to the wide receivers because this plays into it. But he is a, he is a prominent guy and a first round pick and a player that they have high expectations for. It's out there for him. He could go big this year, be much more impactful and sets himself up for a long career. Yeah, but, but it has to improve.
- [17:40]
C
And to me, it's, it's the consistency. It's. It's not just being on the field. It's.
- [17:46]
B
What do you do when you're out there?
- [17:48]
C
When is the game that he's had in two years that you went, man, they can't guard Kincaid, man, Kincaid's taking this game over.
- [17:58]
A
Yeah. Honestly, I've seen.
- [18:00]
C
Not trying to be a Debbie Downer. And I know the comments will be like, Dan so negative on Kincaid. Just Keon had that game.
- [18:07]
A
Yeah.
- [18:07]
C
In Seattle, like in the Tennessee game. Broke a tackle and went. And you were like, wow, I just haven't seen that for the guy that was talked about on draft night by Bean. As he's going to be this mismatch. Think of the way that he moves in the middle of the field and all that he's going to do. He hasn't done that. And yes, you can find analytics that say he does exponentially well. But don't get lost in the sauce of the statistics. Look at with your eyes and think about what game Dalton Kincaid took over. I'm not saying he can't, but it's all about that tempered expectations for me with Kincaid.
- [18:48]
B
All right, let's talk a little bit more about wide receiver here. We'll. We'll go to the other side. Is there a guy that stands out to you in terms of that? There'd be Curtis Samuel, Josh Palmer.
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A
Let's start with Keon in this case.
- [19:00]
B
Okay.
- [19:01]
A
Yeah, Dan mentioned it. Keon has shown flashes. Yep, he has. Where you're like, that's the dude they want. Right. That's the dude they talked about coming in and he had the injury. He, he did do that. In this offense. I don't think it's ever going to be total numbers for Keon. It's going to be making plays for them.
- [19:19]
C
Yes.
- [19:20]
A
And let's see how he comes back this year. I'm, I'm encouraged to see what the second year is. Let's see how he embraces what they're saying they need out of him this year. I mean, he's a second round draft pick. Before his injury, nine games, he had 22 catches for about 400 yards. Three playoff games, he wasn't right. Three catches on eight targets, 22 yards. Like there was nothing in third down in Kansas City. Yeah. And so I think he's a, he's a key guy because he's the one guy there with Shakir that they're thinking more long term with.
- [19:55]
B
Yeah, I think that's totally fair, I guess. To me, I'm, I am so curious how he will come back in his second season because they, Bean and McDermott talked about as critically as we've ever heard them talk about a guy talking about Keon coming back and what he needs to do. And so that to me is. You don't often hear that. And so to me, that was kind of stuck out in my mind of, okay, like they, they told you what you need to get better at and will you show up in year two? Because I do think a piece of this is the maturity factor as well.
- [20:25]
C
Sure.
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B
And, but that being said, like, you have to show up and be ready. And after the off season that he had, like, what, what will that look like when he gets to training camp?
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C
You were pointing at me.
- [20:38]
A
I was going to say he's young.
- [20:40]
C
He is young.
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B
I was literally trying not to say that he is young.
- [20:43]
A
Hey, we're going to have a little positivity just for a brief thing. I can't wait to see what Khalil Shakir does this year.
- [20:49]
B
Yeah, me too.
- [20:49]
C
I'm positive about this offense like that. I just, my expectation is that Dalton Kincaid may not have 800 yards next year. And that's okay because Josh Allen is really, really good.
- [21:03]
A
Yeah. And I think Shakir is a big part of that.
- [21:06]
C
Yeah.
- [21:06]
A
And I think if these other guys to go with Shakir, we don't need to spend a lot of time on Shakir. You saw what he did last year on a hundred targets. I think his targets, I think his targets are going to go up to this year. I think the, the connection he has with Josh is great. The two guys who are the absolute key. Obviously we talk about Keon coming back. You know what Shakir, they're Samuel and Palmer and Curtis Samuel, for a guy who's had moments in this league, we didn't see him most of the year and then you saw a couple in the playoffs late in the year. So hopefully he's healthy because he got paid.
- [21:44]
C
Yeah, yeah.
- [21:45]
A
And I bring that up because this is all about roster manipulation. It's not that Curtis Samuel isn't a good football player. You put him out there and you give him targets. It's that you might be able to get the same production out of a third round draft pick. That was the whole point about the drafting of wide receivers.
- [22:02]
B
Yes.
- [22:02]
A
Because between Samuel and Josh Palmer there's a lot of money going out the door. There was a lot of guaranteed money between the two of them and they need more. Well, obviously Samuel, now Palmer in his first year, they need the production.
- [22:15]
C
And to me, more than anything, it's the most important player on the Bills offense, skill position wise. Not named Josh Allen to me is Shakir because we saw what this offense was when Shakir wasn't out there and it wasn't pretty. So like the fact for how important he is this offense, like he kind of, I remember joke around like when I did that story with the wide receivers of like the utensil drawer.
- [22:42]
A
Yeah.
- [22:42]
C
It's like he's the straw that stirs the drink. Like he opens up a lot for everybody else around him. So I do have high expectations for Curtis Samuel and the. Hopefully he's healthy. I mean he was the toe and all that stuff started in training camp and it just seemed to linger through the entire season. But you saw again those moments and those flashes where you were like, that's the guy they signed. Yeah, this is why they signed him to do it. And there's a lot of faith in Josh Palmer.
- [23:09]
B
I was. What are your expectations on Palmer? 25 years old, 8 million dollar bonus, 15 million guaranteed, best season 2022.
- [23:18]
A
A lot of targets that year.
- [23:19]
B
Yeah, 107 targets, almost 770 yards. Like I, I guess he's a younger guy.
- [23:26]
A
I'm sorry, I did interrupt you, but the reason I wanted to bring it up, you just mentioned his stats. His stats are almost identical to Shakir stats last year. He had 100 targets. He had 100. Palmer had 107. Shakir had 821 yards. Palmer had 769, three touchdowns to four touchdowns. Now that was in 2022. In that case. So, I mean, he's shown his ability to play at that level with a lesser quarterback. I mean, Justin Herbert's okay and Josh Allen. So let's see what he, what he brings to them this year. But it's like I say before, Curtis Samuel has shown that in the NFL. Josh Palmer has shown moments of that. Now let's see what he can bring to this offense.
- [24:08]
C
Yeah. I think he's the interesting case study of another guy that a lot of the analytics community likes. And you know, some Chargers fans were like, well, he never got open.
- [24:18]
B
Like, well, say, do you feel like this is a Gabe Davis esque.
- [24:22]
C
No, no, I'm, I'm not. I'm not saying that. It's just. Okay. He wasn't leaned on that much at times. It feels like, like I said, The Chargers drafted Lad McConkey. They drafted Quentin Johnson. Like they kind of drafted to replace.
- [24:36]
A
Oh, no doubt.
- [24:37]
C
So they're letting him walk. He comes to Buffalo and there's again another guy that when Bean says, like, hey, we didn't draft wide receivers, like, this is another guy. I think Bean sticking his neck out for that. Like, we think we can unlock something that the Chargers didn't do for him.
- [24:55]
A
Yeah.
- [24:55]
B
Yeah. Which maybe that is the case. And I think it's a decent amount of money, though.
- [25:00]
C
Yeah.
- [25:01]
A
Yeah.
- [25:01]
B
I'm sad because I wanted Mac, I wanted Matt Collins.
- [25:04]
A
Yeah. I mean, for what he gave you. Production wise, look, yeah, Josh Allen won the mvp and we've mentioned this, but I like to repeat it because a lot of times people will say, well, he'll elevate the other players. Josh elevates the entire offense one way or the other. Whether he's got a run for it on third and fourth down, whether he gets James Cook going and James Cook had a really good year, or it's getting plays made when one game maybe you know, Keon made a play and then all of a sudden late, it's Curtis Samuel. All of it stems from 17. Right. It's a lot to put on that guy year in and year out. And he won the MVP not because of his numbers. He won the MVP because people looked at it and said, look what he did with those guys.
- [25:49]
B
He's doing more with less.
- [25:51]
A
So that's my concern. Like it was last year. He was incredible. That is a lot to put on a dude year after year.
- [26:01]
B
That's literally. This is. Why would you want to handcuff your best player, your generational talent that.
- [26:07]
A
Did I just go down that same rabbit hole Again.
- [26:09]
B
Okay. We don't have to.
- [26:10]
C
No. But like the other thing too that is worth noting and it's part of being. And his Adaman, his. The way he was so adamant about. Look at what we did and all these things. Do you know how many times the Bill's offense turned the ball over last.
- [26:27]
B
Year was comically low?
- [26:29]
A
8.
- [26:30]
C
8.
- [26:30]
A
Yeah.
- [26:31]
C
They had 13 games where they didn't have a turnover. That's the fewest since like 19 a long time ago. Like it is. The fact is, is that turnover luck swings like turnovers sometimes are fluky. Like I think about the one. Like they had eight turnovers. One of those ones was against the jets when the ball went through Keon's body and into the other guy. That was a Josh Allen interception.
- [27:00]
A
Yeah.
- [27:00]
C
Like so you can sit there and be like, man, like it's hard to think it actually, I'll say it. The Bills will turn the ball over more than eight times this year.
- [27:11]
A
Yeah.
- [27:12]
C
It's just a fact. So like to. To sit there and run it back out there with like what we're saying with. Josh did all of this with a hodgepodge group of utensils as Sean McDermott called them. It's tough but. And I go and I can eat the crow and sit there and say we had these same conversations this time last year. How are you going to replace it? Who's Josh Allen going to lean on? And he did it. And the Bills were really good and they were a dropped pass away from possibly going to the super bowl and all of those things. It's just tough to constantly bank on an MVP caliber season. Time in and time out. That's where my concern is.
- [27:51]
A
And a lot of credit goes to Josh. He was much more conscious of the turnover. So I think he changed his mindset a little. They ran the ball well. All those things were a plus. Offensive line was awesome.
- [28:02]
C
Unbelievable.
- [28:03]
A
He didn't get sacked.
- [28:05]
C
Josh was incredible.
- [28:06]
A
He was great. Yeah, it's. I don't care how great you are. That is tough to keep replicating. And so. But maybe this is the year a healthier Curtis Samuel. Maybe Josh Palmer does bring an element to the offense. All those things need to elevate Josh Allen's going to be Josh freaking Allen. But he was that last year and he kept it all under wraps for so much of the season.
- [28:30]
C
And so one last thing and I know it. It's kind of more skill position. We'll get to the offensive line and Mike has some really good points about that. What it also Comes down to is they were. I was listening to like the NBA and they're talking about the playoffs and they said that the first NBA game is 48 minutes.
- [28:47]
A
Yeah.
- [28:47]
C
Okay. The first 46 minutes, it's a team game. And in the final two minutes, it's a star game. And I look around and I go, the Bills have the best star in the league. Yeah, but who does Josh have to lean on in the final two minutes of the game? You know, Josh is going to be incredible. He always is incredible late in the games. But who's the other guy that you're going, this is our guy. And. And because I think it was Paul Pierce or somebody talking about it. It was Gilbert Arenas, he was on a podcast and he was saying, like, that's earned. They know at the end of games who's getting the ball. The coach doesn't have to say it. Like, they've earned it in practice. They've earned it one on ones. They earned it in training camp. They've earned it. Like, who else on this bill's team right now when it's third and seven and you're going, this guy's got it.
- [29:32]
A
So I will go back to. I said a couple weeks ago that all of a sudden I Turn on the TV and there's the AFC championship game.
- [29:39]
B
Oh, yeah.
- [29:39]
A
And the Bills scored by 29 points. And I watched it just to sit there and, you know, I knew the outcome. And the offense put up 29 points and it was a lot like there was fourth down. Like we talk about, they didn't make it on the fourth and short, but they had made it on another tush push. That was close right before that. And Josh ran for multiple first downs and James Cook dove over the line and got the touchdown like it was nothing. Was easy. And the. And I'm not saying it's easy in the playoffs, but to Dan's point, man, if a guy steps up for them and, hey, there's opportunities out there. Maybe it's Shakir, maybe it's Keon, maybe it's Kincaid.
- [30:27]
C
Like, maybe it's Palmer.
- [30:28]
A
Right. But the guy who. I'll say this to a credit to 13, when he needed him in that one game, that was the game. Hold on. When you look back at that game and listen, you can talk about how they overthought that game and everything, but in that game, Gabe made plays and Josh found him fourth downs and all those kind of things. He hasn't really had that with anybody, you know, in those big moments. So that's when. That's when I say he had those with Diggs. I think that's what I'm saying is since Diggs has been gone and, and Diggs wasn't great in the playoffs either.
- [31:04]
C
Correct.
- [31:05]
A
But the idea is, man, can we, can any of these guys, hey, look, make Josh's life in the big moments, 10% easier, 15% easier, catch it and go, go make a play. And that's what my concern is for the offense again this year. And I hope this, all these guys, including Elijah Moore is in there, whoever, go make plays for him and make his life easier.
- [31:29]
C
The one guy that was making plays in that AFC championship game is now in New England and he was the surprise. So maybe there will be another surprise and maybe Josh can turn Josh Palmer into a Mack Hollands like resurgence who led the team in receiving yards. But it's, it's. You're hoping.
- [31:46]
A
Yeah.
- [31:47]
C
You're hoping.
- [31:48]
B
Yeah, no, it's true. I mean.
- [31:52]
A
And I know we're going to do the offensive line, but the quick part on that is, listen, if they get the James Cook thing worked out or he just plays it out this year, yep, they're fine at running back. Cook was really good last year. They have cheap options behind them. I don't know if any of those guys is a number one, but James Cook was a very prominent player for them and they need that guy on the field this year. However it ends up that way. I think he's, I think he's playing this year.
- [32:19]
C
Yes.
- [32:19]
A
I don't think he can sit out. I don't know if it gets to that. They need him. He was a guy who made plays for them.
- [32:26]
C
I was going to say he was a playmaker like a lot of. I think it was. Jeremy was talking on the radio and the fact of, there are a lot of teams that give the running backs the ball inside the five and James Cook didn't have a ton of carries inside the five like his. He wasn't a touchdown stealer. He earned a lot of his touchdowns from 20, 30, 40 yards plus breaking runs in that Miami game. Like he is the other playmaker outside of Josh. When the ball got in his hands, you went, something big could happen here.
- [33:00]
B
So the level that he grew from two seasons ago to last season was so fun to watch.
- [33:07]
C
Yeah, that's the growth that they need to see out of a Keon, out of a Kincaid and those guys to turn into playmakers. That's the, that's what they're banking on. It can happen. It can Absolutely happen.
- [33:21]
B
Yeah. All right. You mentioned the O line.
- [33:23]
A
Yeah, I. All I wanted to say about the O line was it is an outstanding group. Those guys play. Fortunately, knock on. That's not wood. They stay healthy. That group is. You know, you look at the percentage of snaps that Spencer Brown and. And Osiris Torrence.
- [33:43]
C
There it is.
- [33:43]
B
There it is.
- [33:44]
A
Yes. Connor McGovern.
- [33:46]
C
There it is.
- [33:48]
A
David Edwards and then obviously with. With Dion, they. They're all in the high 90s. The only games that it wasn't the case, like Spencer missed the Kansas City game and that's when we got a chance to see Ryan Vandemart. Yes. Who played in that spot. And they obviously had a big game and that's great. Here's my only concern about the O line and I like even like the depth now. Like that's not an issue. My issue is more again, roster manipulation. When they brought McGovern in, Platy McGard and Edwards was the extra guy. And then the next year they moved on from the NFL networks. Mitch Morris, you see, he's on there all the time now. Look at Mitch. They moved on from him. Boy. They slid McGovern over. They moved Edwards in at guard. I love that kind of use of the assets. And they bring the players in. McGovern's in the last year of his deal. Edwards is in the last year of his deal. Alec Anderson's on a one year deal. Nothing has to be done. But you drafted Van Pran Granger. Is he a guy we're going to see? Like, we don't see him play.
- [34:48]
C
Yeah.
- [34:49]
A
Played in the Kansas City or the New England game.
- [34:52]
C
Yeah.
- [34:52]
A
Big win by the Patriots. We don't know. Is there a plan.
- [34:58]
C
Yeah.
- [34:58]
A
That he. They move on at the end of the year. These are not 20, 25 issues, but these are the type of things that you like. They have grable that they brought in. Like they like him a lot. Can. Is there a plan in place or is this Sign one of them, don't sign the other, bring in a free agent. Like I don't know what their plan is going forward.
- [35:19]
B
Do you know how old Conor McGovern is?
- [35:21]
C
Connor McGovern is 27.
- [35:26]
B
Wow.
- [35:28]
A
Were you not.
- [35:29]
B
I thought he was. I thought he was cheating.
- [35:31]
A
Yeah.
- [35:31]
C
Cuz I knew when they signed him he was like 24. Like he was real young.
- [35:34]
B
Okay.
- [35:34]
C
Yeah, well, not real young. He was. He's not Keon young, but he's.
- [35:39]
B
No, that was good. Okay. Honestly, I thought he was older.
- [35:44]
C
I mean, he's not. Well, no.
- [35:47]
B
One is.
- [35:49]
A
Hold on a second. When you look at what very quickly what Bean did with defensive backs this year, I love seeing that drafted three corners.
- [35:59]
C
Yep.
- [35:59]
A
Like high two later ones get them out there. Like that is what really helps. They needed the top one, get two more, start filling in spots players can play. Offensive line is different. But man, things change quickly.
- [36:13]
C
Yeah.
- [36:13]
A
As players get either contracted out or aged out. So I. I love the O line. I'm just. I'm curious what their thinking is going forward.
- [36:21]
C
Yeah. I'd like to think that something gets done with McGovern.
- [36:24]
A
Yeah.
- [36:24]
C
Like I'd like to think that because of his age and like it's not easy to plug in a right guard, but you have the tackles anchored. You have your left guard for the future in Torrance. And so like to not shuffle the deck too much and having that stability moving forward, I wonder if is a big plus.
- [36:47]
A
I wonder if Van Pran Granger can play guard. I mean he's a center. You know, it's an interior d lineman.
- [36:53]
C
Right. McGovern went from guard to center. You know, I mean.
- [36:58]
B
No, I'm just laughing how last year were like the snaps.
- [37:00]
A
Yeah. Yeah. For like that gave us something to talk about the first like week and a half. And then it was like, oh no, he's fine.
- [37:07]
B
Yeah, worked out well.
- [37:08]
A
Okay.
- [37:08]
B
Okay, there's that. Do you want to talk about that.
- [37:10]
C
Is funny when we have. When we think back to like those like what we're are like, oh no.
- [37:15]
B
Yeah.
- [37:15]
A
Mitch is gone. And we love Mitch.
- [37:18]
C
But McGovern was great.
- [37:19]
A
Yeah.
- [37:19]
B
All right. QB, backup QB.
- [37:22]
A
It's just they interesting thing when you look at the two. I mean obviously 17's okay. But then you look at Mitch, can't confirm final year of his deal. Dead cap a seven fifty. They have Mike White. I'm thoroughly confused what the league thinks of Mike White. No one signed him off the practice squad. Miami plays like nobody when two is out. They had him before.
- [37:43]
C
Yeah.
- [37:44]
A
You would have thought Miami plays.
- [37:45]
B
I like Mike.
- [37:45]
C
What do you mean Miami plays anybody?
- [37:47]
A
Well, that's what I mean. And they had Mike White, but they didn't.
- [37:50]
B
Yeah.
- [37:50]
A
And I don't know if Mike White thought I'm going to hang around here. Maybe. Maybe. That is a real competition this year.
- [37:56]
B
Yeah.
- [37:56]
C
Do we know what Mitch's dead cap is?
- [37:59]
A
It's 750. Yeah. Oh, 750,000. Yeah. So I don't think we have a.
- [38:07]
C
Day at training camp where we talk about the backup quarterback position usually like what's it week Two.
- [38:13]
B
Day. Two.
- [38:14]
A
Yeah.
- [38:15]
C
Yeah. Like the tenth practice.
- [38:17]
A
Yeah.
- [38:17]
B
Yeah. Which would. Yeah.
- [38:20]
A
I remember that one year.
- [38:21]
B
I'm so excited for camp.
- [38:22]
A
That one year we tried to talk to the third string quarterback, Josh Allen.
- [38:26]
C
Yeah.
- [38:26]
A
Why do you want to talk to the third string quarterback?
- [38:28]
B
I just will never forget. We're all the press waiting for Josh. He runs over, he goes, sorry to make you guys wait. I was like, oh, that won't last.
- [38:37]
C
Yeah.
- [38:38]
B
I was like, this man's way too nice to be good in the NFL.
- [38:41]
A
That just turns out today's show's still waiting for him.
- [38:44]
C
Dorian Strong introduced himself. Like, we shook hands after we did the little. A little thing.
- [38:49]
A
Nice. Yeah. Hey, that means he's. Because Shakir did that now. Dorian Strong.
- [38:54]
B
Yeah.
- [38:55]
C
Benford did it. Kind of.
- [38:56]
A
Yeah.
- [38:56]
C
He hung around after because we were like Villanova.
- [38:59]
A
Yeah. At Bedford.
- [39:00]
C
Go Cats.
- [39:01]
A
The Pope.
- [39:03]
B
You think they're close?
- [39:04]
A
Yes.
- [39:06]
B
Do we want to do credit to me?
- [39:07]
A
Why not?
- [39:08]
B
Is there anything else you want to wrap up before we do that?
- [39:10]
C
No. And like, I. I don't want this to come across as pessimistic.
- [39:16]
A
Oh, no. There's. There's people that just are so angry with us to be.
- [39:20]
C
Because they average 30 points a game. So you just roll that out. Because the Patriots will stink again. Because that's what they did last year. Like, there is the cat and mouse game and how are you improving? And I think the roster manipulation, as Mike keeps bringing up, is a really good point of how are you. While the salary cap is not real, how are you maneuvering with inside of it? And they. They've spent. They've spent money and like I said, finishing up with the wide receivers. We had all this discussion. We did all this last year, May 13th. We did it during training camp. All these things. Week six, they traded for a wide receiver.
- [39:55]
A
Yeah.
- [39:55]
C
They spent a third round pick on Amari Cooper. So, like, just sit here and go, we love these guys. We're set. This. Everybody eats. And then you quickly realized, like, oh, this isn't good enough. Like, are the Bills going to be in another position like that? It's a scary and expensive thing to do.
- [40:14]
A
And they don't think this way. But it's. It's a. It's a dangerous way to think, but we can think this way. This is not about winning that game in Week 6 against the jets or whatever. I'm not looking at the schedule. It's about beating the Chiefs or beating the Ravens or making that play that you need. That James Cook play is the kind of play.
- [40:33]
C
Yep.
- [40:34]
A
You need out of somebody that isn't wearing number 17.
- [40:36]
C
Yep.
- [40:37]
A
On offense, that's what you need. And James Cook made it when he dove into the end zone. That's what you need.
- [40:42]
C
What if. And this is like the fear, and we talk about how good Shakira has been and Jenna was all over that saying, like, this guy's going to be a difference maker. What if teams and defenses say, we're just going to take Khalil Shakir out, out of it? We're. We're going to make sure that Shakir doesn't beat us, that he doesn't have 70 plus yards against us. Who's the guy that's going to be the dependable one? Who's the guy that's going to have six for 70? It's. It's what they've been trying to find for years.
- [41:14]
A
I would say if Shakir. Yes, I see what you're saying is they could.
- [41:18]
C
Because when Shakir wasn't in at the end of that Baltimore game and the next game, like, the offense was lost.
- [41:25]
A
Yeah.
- [41:25]
C
He's so valuable.
- [41:28]
A
He is.
- [41:29]
B
Yeah.
- [41:29]
C
That's my fear is that if opposing teams say, hey, listen, we're going to load the box and we're going to make Shakir not beat us, who's winning on the outside? I don't know if the bills are 100% sure that they know right now. That's my. That's my fear with the offense. And we can clip this and we may be running it next year at this time.
- [41:54]
A
They did score 30 points a game. Somebody's going to remind us again and again. And by the way, they could do it this year, too, because I think they have an easier schedule this year. I think last year was a harder schedule.
- [42:04]
B
I agree.
- [42:05]
C
4 out of the first 5 at home is huge.
- [42:06]
A
Yeah.
- [42:07]
B
Yeah. Okay, let's do Credit to me.
- [42:11]
A
I'll start this one. Credit to me. They don't listen to the pod. They're wonderful people. But I am driving in a car to West Virginia for a graduation this weekend with multiple in laws, father in law, mother in law, maybe both of them. They haven't been married for 30 years. It is going to be quite a trip. It's going to be a lot of fun. But credit to me, I am the designated driver and if my wife falls asleep in the car, we're going to have problems. Here I am going for my stepdaughter, Charlotte. Congratulations, Char. She's graduating from West Virginia University. Proud Mountaineer. It's going to be a lot of fun. And I'm. I'm going there. Credit to me driving the car this weekend.
- [42:55]
B
It'll be worth it.
- [42:56]
A
Yeah.
- [42:57]
B
Yeah.
- [42:57]
A
It's gonna be fun. Yeah.
- [42:58]
B
Absolutely. All right. Dan might have. Might say he has a big weekend ahead, but I have an even bigger weekend because I'm officially becoming a godmother this weekend.
- [43:10]
C
She's stealing my credit to me.
- [43:13]
B
Ladies first. No. Dan's daughter Taylor is going to be having her baptism and I'm going to be her godmother. And I am so excited and honored and not gonna cry, but really excited and credit to me because I'm gonna be an awesome godmother. Zach was already telling me I'm doing way too much.
- [43:34]
C
Wow. Pretty big expectations. Haven't we just talked about?
- [43:37]
A
I just was gonna say, like, you.
- [43:40]
B
Know, sorry, I'm getting a phone call.
- [43:42]
A
Somebody, you know, like, temper us up a little bit.
- [43:45]
C
Yeah, Temper expectations. Like my brother's the godfather gonna be watching. I don't know, like, maybe the godfather is gonna have to step up if the godmother, he's already in a group text.
- [43:54]
A
So now it's three. I'm worried about your roster manipulation.
- [43:57]
C
Yeah.
- [43:58]
A
You're down to Jenna.
- [43:59]
C
We're down to Jenna and my brother.
- [44:02]
B
Yeah.
- [44:03]
C
Yeah. Sunday is baptism for our. For Taylor. So credit to all the moms out there. That's what I'll do my credit to me on. My wife Renee, talk about all the time. The pod, she had a rough mother's Day. Like, let. We're just going to be honest. The kids, we three girls, four and a half, one and a half. And our five month old allergies are kicking me in the ass. They're trying to take my voice away.
- [44:28]
A
But God, so many people are wishing for that.
- [44:31]
C
I know I literally did not talk much today because I knew I wanted to have takes for the state of the bill's offense. But yeah, Renee, only she does so much for her family, doesn't get enough credit. I gave our both of our daughters the pep talk of like, this is mom's day. It's whatever she wants to do. It did not reach expectations. Our oldest daughter wanted to do more things with me than with mom. That didn't go over well. And I had to. We were at going out and getting a drink before dinner and I had to tell my daughter, at four and a half years old, you get 363 days a year. You get two days that aren't yours. This is one of them. And it did not go well.
- [45:12]
B
But I couldn't understand that concept.
- [45:14]
A
Couldn't understand the concept, really. A three year old or four year old, right?
- [45:18]
C
Yeah, four.
- [45:18]
A
Yeah. Wow.
- [45:20]
B
So, yeah, better luck next year.
- [45:21]
C
Yeah. Credit to all the moms out there. I hope you guys had great mother's days.
- [45:26]
A
Now, when you're having a tough day and you need help with the three kids, just call godmother Janet.
- [45:31]
C
That's right.
- [45:31]
B
I'll be working so he can be home.
- [45:33]
C
That's right. I'll work.
- [45:37]
B
All right, well, that'll do it. I'm excited for you, Mike.
- [45:42]
A
Yeah, it's going to be. It's going to be a fun weekend. That's a. It's a nice campus out there. Morgantown.
- [45:49]
C
Morgantown, yeah. God's country.
- [45:51]
A
By the way, it's not that far. People go. You're driving to West Virginia from Rochester, New York. It's five hours.
- [45:56]
B
That's not bad.
- [45:57]
A
It's like Pittsburgh and then an hour south, go over the border.
- [46:00]
B
Don't understand the geography.
- [46:02]
C
By the way. When I've been out and about at whether it's been an Amherst game or dropping Shane off at preschool, I've had multiple people this week look at me and go, I know you and the one guy. It's like the last thing we. Jen and I always joke around about it. Like, if you see Mike out in Rochester, like, people know Mike.
- [46:21]
B
Oh, my gosh. Yeah.
- [46:22]
C
So, like, for us, it's like, you look so. And yesterday at the AMEX game, it was people that were going, that's the guy from the podcast. Wow. So I'm the guy from the podcast. Like, that should be it.
- [46:34]
A
He's the guy dad yells about all the time.
- [46:38]
B
That damn. Dan Fates.
- [46:40]
C
Comment in with what your. What you like about the Bills offense, what you don't like about the Bills offense, and what your concern and excitement are heading into the season.
- [46:50]
B
Highest ceiling.
- [46:51]
A
Yes. And your expectations for Dalton King. Kate.
- [46:56]
B
Yes. Curious about it all.
- [46:57]
A
Yep.
- [46:58]
B
All right. Please be sure to, like, comment, subscribe and share plenty more content. Pilates video coming up. Travel drafts coming up.
- [47:06]
C
Jenna is on the clock.
- [47:08]
B
I did not know I had the first pick.
- [47:10]
A
Yes, she has the first pick.
- [47:12]
C
I could have ran up. I could have ran up to the podium.
- [47:15]
B
You could have.
- [47:16]
C
Could have been the Vikings just asleep on the clock.
- [47:18]
B
I did not. I honestly did not know. Forgot about last year.
- [47:21]
A
Okay, So I did.
- [47:23]
B
I have to make my board. All right.
- [47:24]
C
Trust the board.
- [47:25]
B
Mike Catalana. Dan Fates. I'm Jenna Cottrell. Thank you for watching Buffalo plus presented by Connors and Ferris.