← Build with Leila Hormozi
Build with Leila Hormozi
How Your Relationship Is Keeping You POOR (w/ Alex Hormozi) | Ep 202
01:15:21
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- [00:00]
A
Picking the wrong person can break your business. Picking the right person can make your business. In this episode, we're going to explore how this affects business owners, employees, and single people. It was like two weeks ago. I want to say that we were talking about it and we correlated pretty much every high performer in the company with having immense support, if not encouragement, not even just support, but encouragement from their significant other. Or they don't have one, or have one that is aloof, meaning they're just not interfering with their career. And so that creates an environment in which they are a top performer. Or at least the way I see it is I care less about the fact that it affects their job here. I care more about the fact that it affects their life and their goals. And I think what it led to, like a bigger discussion for us was just like, how many people that we know that they chose the wrong person and because they chose the wrong person, their life has not turned out how they wanted it to.
- [00:55]
B
Yeah, I think when I was thinking more about it after we. Because we talked like a whole evening on just this one topic and in the morning. Yeah. Which is actually a pretty meaty discussion for us to do like a two day topic on it. I was thinking about it more and I think there's like four levels of spouse or significant other, interference or support in someone's life. So on the most negative, you have somebody who's actively trying to sabotage the person's job. So they're like, anytime the person's frustrated, they lean into the frustration. So they're like, yeah, they do suck. You know what? They shouldn't work you that hard. You shouldn't have to do these things. Right. Lots of shoulds. And I think an alternative version of that negative is the competitive spouse who wants to beat their spouse. And like, if the spouse gets ahead, then they see that as a bad thing. And I think that happens more often in unmarried partnerships than married. But I still think it happens in both because they don't see it as one pot. It's still like two separate bank accounts or two separate scoreboards rather than our collective scoreboard. I think one degree after that you have the neutral, the aloof, the like you have a job, I don't want to hear about it. But just as long as it doesn't interfere with what we want to do, which I think oftentimes that ends up over time becoming the negative. Because the more involved the person gets in their career, the more they will bring work home with them because their work is their life. And they just are really interested in it and want to talk to the person they care the most about with it. And I think the degree after that is you have support, like the active support. And I think for most people this is like the best that most people will end up getting. I think the fourth, which is extremely rare, is where the person actively helps the individual. And that's where you see like working spouses, working relationships, where they actually work together towards the same goal. And I think that's still, I mean, I used to think there's like cheerleader, fullback, which is like this person's cheering for you and this person's on the field. And I equated them. But I actually, the more I've thought about it, the more I think if we're just talking long term, then how could you make the argument that somebody who's actually helping you actively rather than just eliminating other things that distract you. So one is removing negatives and the other one is like actively adding positives too.
- [03:15]
A
And I think that can look different for different people. Meaning, like adding positives can be that somebody makes work easier for you by what they do at home. You know, like the way that they take care of the house, the way they take care of the kids, you know, things like that. And they encourage you to keep doing work the way you want to do work. Or it could be like us, where it's like, you know, we're all in on doing the same thing together.
- [03:39]
B
I think why we were thinking about this more is that like we've seen people who have potential, who we've hired, who we've brought on the team, and through a poor mate selection, they have gone from rising stars to stagnant or even declining. Because it's kind of like this continuous. It's kind of like if you're driving a car quickly, like a tiny steering direction doesn't change very much when the person's a low or mid level person. But as they move up, it's like the car goes faster and each tiny little veering direction makes a bigger change in the person's trajectory. And so I think this was just like a theme that we've seen. And then we tried to back validate it. We were like, okay, let's look at past companies, let's look at past employees, let's look at all these different scenarios. And it just seemed to be like a 100% correlation. It was like we could not find a scenario where we had someone who consistently moved up, consistently improved, consistently got better and didn't have a spouse that was basically all in with them on their career.
- [04:42]
A
I don't know if you remember this, but when we first got married, I remember someone telling us that a healthy marriage or partnership more so is how it was positioned in most partnerships that are what people consider normal. When one spouse is down and they're thinking negatively about something, they're having a hard time, they're struggling, the other spouse is here, and then they come down here with that spouse. And what this person told me that reinforced how we interact is when one of us is down, the other one doesn't go down with them. Like if one of us is feeling negative about something, I actively am like, oh, I'm not gonna feed into that. I'm gonna remind of the goal, I'm gonna remind of all the hard work. I'm gonna remind of what you want. And you do that for me too. It's like encouraging. It's not like, oh no, don't talk about that. But it's, you can do it. You're so fucking strong. You've got all these things going for you. You've worked so hard. This is going to pass in a week. Like all these things. And I think what you see is just like over time enough times, somebody just pulls you down and pulls you down and pulls you down. It feels like they're being empathetic in a way, but they're actually just sowing seeds of doubt and they're feeding into like what our brains do, which is always go towards the negative. What resonated with me is when I heard someone say, you have to make it home to the dinner table. If you really want to help someone skyrocket their career, you have to make it home to the dinner table. And it has to be good news at the dinner table.
- [06:08]
B
Well, I'll say two elements. So one thing is when you have a spouse or a significant other who's at home and you have that negative day, right? What happens? And I can understand why that significant other will take the next steps, I'm about to say, which is they both reward the positive behavior. Sorry, they reward with something different than work and they punish talking about work in a negative way. And so that creates a two sided incentive that makes it really hard for the person who is struggling with work to talk more about it or work more. Because then the partner associates work with negative and says, don't talk about that. Or like they're pushing you too hard, right? So that's them basically punishing them, talking about this thing they're trying to get through. And then also says, hey, why don't we take some time and watch Netflix? Why don't we go out with friends? Why don't we? Whatever. In an attempt to help the partner, they end up creating a positive contingency around them not working and a negative contingency around them working, which are two separate things, but they do them both simultaneously. And so when you do that on a consistent basis, it ends up. This is where we're talking about what happens over the long term. This is those little NASCAR moves where like, a little bit, like, it happens once and then it happens again, and then the car starts steering. And so that person who was otherwise a really big contributor all of a sudden doesn't find themselves dedicating discretionary effort and time towards the work or their career because everything they do at home is punished. And they have alternatives to work that are given to them by their spouse that are, quote, reinforcing. But where it gets especially tricky is where that spouse or partner then wants this person. They want to enjoy the fruits of a really good career, but actively are punishing the person for talking about their work and actively distracting them from the work that they do. So it makes it even harder for them to succeed. And so at some point, the rubber hits the road. And I think most times the rubber doesn't hit the road. It just happens in the person's career. So the rubber, like, reality has to set in at some point. Either the conversation has to be had where it's like, hey, this career is really important to me, and so I need to be able to talk about this stuff, or I need to be able to, like, just work through it out loud. And that's just how I process things. And I just need you to support me. And, like, that's where you start giving instructions and directions on, like, when I say this stuff, this is what I would like you to do rather than you hear me say something negative and you take that as direction to encourage negativity and then distract me. Like, fundamentally, like, that's how you translate me coming home upset, which long term makes me worse at my job, which net on our whole life is not a good thing because then my career will get off track and then we'll both suffer.
- [09:00]
A
Has this ever happened to you?
- [09:01]
B
Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I'm curious.
- [09:05]
A
Cause, like, from my perspective, obviously, like, it's more traditional for, like, a guy to be like, I don't want you to work so much. Cause, like, how are you gonna do all this other Stuff, Right. And so like, I'm used to getting that until I met you. But I'm curious for you.
- [09:15]
B
Yeah, I was like, go make money, baby.
- [09:17]
A
But I'm curious for you, like, what was like, how did you handle that and how did you go into our relationship differently? Because when we met it was so clear to me. I think we were both really clear about what we wanted in terms of support in achieving our goals.
- [09:31]
B
Well, I'll say that, I'll say I had two relationships prior that had two of the scenarios I talked about. So one was the competitor where it's like both of us were trying to compete with who was going to achieve more. And so that was kind of like very subversive, very like passive, like passive aggressive. Which then, and I think long term ends up creating more space between you. And then you're both kind of driving these separate lanes, but not because of the benefit of the whole. You're just driving, you're basically growing apart. So I've gone through that and I didn't like it. And so then a different scenario was actually more akin to what I was describing earlier, which is why I feel like I have more like, you know, emotion around it, which is where you have someone who's really well intentioned and wants to help, but wants to help by getting you to not work and not talk about work. And so the way that looked was like, I'm like, hey, these are all the things that are stressing me out. And it's like, okay, enough talk about work for you. Let's talk about my day. And so I was like, man, I don't really care about your day. I'm still not done processing my day right now. And so the thing is, if work is the thing that means the most to me in my life, then it's like I no longer can talk about the thing that I care about most. That's tough when I'm talking to the person that I care about most.
- [10:50]
A
So then going into our relationship, after you got out of those two relationships, what did you decide?
- [10:57]
B
Well, for me it was like, and I probably have better words for this now than I did then, but it was like I decided that my relationship with my goals was my most important relationship. And so I was like, I'm just not willing to sacrifice my relationship with that for anyone. And so that became one of my non negotiables going in. Whereas before it wasn't a non negotiable, it wasn't even a discussion because I just didn't to be Fair. I just didn't have that much experience with it overall. Or at least the goals that I had of studying hard or things like that were, I guess, more commonplace. But I was just like, this is the thing that matters most to me right now. And so you can get on this train or you cannot, but this train's leaving.
- [11:32]
A
Was that hard for you? At first?
- [11:33]
B
No.
- [11:37]
A
I didn't think so.
- [11:40]
B
I mean. I mean, at the beginning of our.
- [11:42]
A
Relationship, it was funny because, like, I can't picture you.
- [11:45]
B
Yeah, I know.
- [11:46]
A
Even tolerating that.
- [11:48]
B
I know.
- [11:49]
A
And I am just. I've never been that person, so I can't. But I see it happen all the.
- [11:53]
B
Time, you know, I mean, it was a decision, right? It was like this. I mean, it was, you know, it's like you learn through experience. You're like, okay, I thought this wouldn't matter. I thought the traditional set up would work. And I think maybe for some people it does. But for me, I was like, this is my life. This is like, these goals mean a lot to me. And if I were to play out the alternative scenarios of like, I have a meaningful relationship, but I don't achieve any of my goals, or I achieve my goals and I don't have a meaningful relationship, I would rather have the goals. But I think that there's a way where I could have the goals and the relationship as long as the relationship is aligned with my goals. And so then you can have both. But I think a lot of people are afraid and because they feel like the false choice exists and there is no alternative, they just choose, well, I'd rather not be alone, which I can understand, but I think that I had been. I had never felt more alone than when I was in a relationship where I felt internal conflict between what I cared about most and who I cared about most.
- [12:53]
A
I think we've both probably defined goals the same way, which is like, the reason that the goals mean more than the person is because the goals are actually your relationship with yourself.
- [13:03]
B
So it really isn't what I care about most and who I care about most. It's that it feels selfish to say, but it's like you have to care about you more than you care about the relationship. And I think it's very much the. You have to put your air mask on before helping others. You know, that's the ethical workaround that people have. Seem to sleep well with in society. But like, if you feel unfulfilled in what you do with the vast majority of your life, most people will spend More time working than doing anything else in their lives, which is really just the relationship that you have with what you do on your own. That's tough to sacrifice all of that just to not be alone. But the thing is, I think that's a false answer. It's like you are alone because you're not able to be you. And so then you start having a split life where you're one person at work, which is who you really are. And then you have one person that you have to act like at home. You can't talk about the same topics, you can't think the same things. Now some people are like, well, I want to leave work at work, which is fine. It's just. That's not how I work.
- [14:03]
A
I think it's also interesting because, like, when I was thinking about it, when you talk about, like, goals, I think most people, when they hear us say that, they think, oh, it's like work, monetary goals. But I think there's so many different things it can be, because we've seen it where it's not just that a spouse conflicts with a. I would say, like a monetary goal, but like a spouse conflicts with personal goals, like health, like other relations, like so many other things that somebody's looking to achieve. I mean, I would say health is probably one of the first ones.
- [14:32]
B
Yeah, let's stay in and eat Cheetos. And you're like, hey, I'm trying to like, no, it's like, hey, like, let's. Let's have some fun. It's like, well, that means that any time that. Because when you say a statement like that, it also means that anytime that I'm actually trying to pursue my goals, you are implying the opposite, that it is not fun. And I'm like, I don't. I reject the premise. The reason I think this is so important is that when I look at my life and what I've achieved, who was in my corner had the largest influence on that? Like, I look at what I was able to achieve on my own versus with someone who was actively working against me. And I don't think that was deliberate by any stretch of the imagination. But just if we look at what happens as a result of this person, not intention, not desire, not goodwill, but just when this person is in my life, it is less likely that I achieve my goals. Just simply stating it like that I was less likely to achieve my goals. I struggled with business in the early days, and then when I went on my own, I did much, much better just working. Like, basically, if I removed interference. I simply did much better. And then when you came in my life, not only did I remove interference, but I now had support. I had like before a bad day gets worse because the person feeds into the bad day and distracts and says, hey, we have these other things that are also important, which if that's what that person wants, that's fine. It just might not mean that I'm the person for them, which obviously I wasn't once we were aligned. It's like you get your negatives become neutral and your positives become super positives. And I think, I mean, the difference. I mean, everybody in the world looks at the monetary change, but I look at the inner. My personal change of who I was able to become as a result of having the support. And I think the business growth was just a consequence of personal growth.
- [16:22]
A
I think why it's so important is also because you become like the people you spend the most time with. And so when I look at myself and getting into the relationship with you, I'm like, I'm going to become more like him in some ways. Now I would say that the more intelligent somebody is, the more deliberate they can be. Because I know some really intelligent people who are with people who are maybe not so intelligent. They're very deliberate about not, you know, assimilating anything from that person. But I think, like, we've both learned a lot from each other. And what scares me is to think, what would you learn from a person if they are not someone that you aspire to be?
- [16:57]
B
Like, if people pick their spouses, like, who do I want to become? Like, they would pick very different spouses.
- [17:03]
A
I mean, I think it's such an interesting topic to me because growing up watching my parents got divorced and then they dated all these different people watching that and even just how much they changed and their personalities changed based on the person that they were with, I immediately was like, oh, you become like these people that you date and if they have big areas that you do not fuck with, you might, if you're not careful, you absorb those areas. And so I think it's really interesting because I think one thing that we've actually, I'll just say I think we've done well is we try to take the best from each other. And then wherever, I think because we're kind of like things that I like, I tend to stress more. And so I've learned a lot of acceptance from you. Right? And then you tend to want to move really fast and you've learned patience from me. And so I would say, like, wherever each of us were, like, weaker, which I would say, like, in general, not weak, but, like, weaker. We've learned from each other. And so it's also been, like, very complimentary because there's no, like, big out points that either one of us have, like, absorbed. If anything, it's been, like a net positive for both.
- [18:08]
B
Yeah. And I think, you know, for me, I've learned kindness from you. I would say that I was much less empathetic in general.
- [18:17]
A
Less? No.
- [18:18]
B
Yeah, less than that. I know it's been a slow path, but. No, I learned a lot of kindness from you. And I think that just to a degree, you've also gotten some teeth from me. No, for real. I think that there were too many times that I saw in the early days of us even just dating, you had these relationships, friend or otherwise, that you needed to be willing to cut and people that took advantage of you that you needed to be able to be like, no, basically more standing up for you.
- [18:55]
A
It's interesting because I feel like we both had those to a degree, that's actually true.
- [18:59]
B
I think it was domain specific.
- [19:01]
A
It's domain specific. And I think that it's that we listened to each other when we said, like, hey, this person's not good for you, because we knew that we were aligned in that I was helping you achieve your goals and you were helping me achieve my goals.
- [19:13]
B
Yeah, that's true.
- [19:14]
A
And I think that that's the interesting part about it is, like, there's so many times where somebody says, quit the job, cut the friend, do all, and you can't even trust it because they don't. They're not aligned with your goals.
- [19:26]
B
Yeah.
- [19:26]
A
If somebody's not aligned with your goals and they have separate goals, then when they give you advice or they speak things to you about whatever your goals are, they're completely unaligned. I think that's the only, like, that's the major advantage we have is just that we have the same goal. Our paths there and how we want to develop ourselves within that greater goal are different, but we have that same big goal we're going towards. So it's like, if you win faster, I win faster. So we just know that we're aligned in that sense. And I think that's something that a lot of people miss out on because they don't get aligned on. Are we trying to go to the same place?
- [19:56]
B
Yeah, I think both of us have done a good job of protecting one another.
- [19:59]
A
And also, like, at times being like you didn't pick it the fuck up. You know, there's been, like, a few times where you've been like, this is not a big deal. And I'll be like, okay, I believe you. You know what I mean?
- [20:13]
B
It's interesting you said, I believe you, rather than like, okay, I accept that. But it's like, I believe you. It's actually a little bit different.
- [20:21]
A
Yeah. I think it's like, just thinking about the times where there's been times, I think for both of us that we've been like, we got this. We don't need to divulge into this. This is not a problem. This is not. And I feel like it has reduced the amount of drama for both of us in our lives. And personally, I think to such a degree that when I see these relationships where people are misaligned, it's almost like people want to capitalize on creating drama out of challenging situations for each other because it helps interfere with the other person's goal, which is good for this person, because they don't want them to achieve their goals, because then it means something for them that's bad. They lose more of this person's time. They lose more of their interest. They become further grown apart. So it's like they're constantly trying to prevent this person from achieving their goals. And so it's like they can't say it or not. Right.
- [21:15]
B
Are you conscious of it or not?
- [21:16]
A
That's what's crazy is that I think everyone listens. They're like toxic people. It's like, I don't think anybody. Most people in general, I would not say are toxic. It's that they're misaligned, but then you call them toxic because they're misaligned. So it's just twisted. It's like, you can have the nicest person in the world, but if they're completely misaligned with you, it's just still not gonna help you.
- [21:36]
B
I think the biggest filter that I've used for friendships and significant other obviously, is, does having this person in my life increase the likelihood that I hit my goals? And I've just used that as my 100% raiser for all relationships, friends or otherwise. And that also means that you can have somebody who you don't necessarily want to be friends with for a very long time, but if they increase the likelihood that you hit your goals, then there are things that you can learn from them. And I think that's been really valuable for me. And I think also there's a temporal component, so Like, I mean, we talk about seasons a lot, right. And I think that a spouse who's not in the know or a significant other who's not in the know extrapolates everything to forever. Like whatever happens now is what it's gonna be like forever. And then therefore I can't deal with it.
- [22:21]
A
Seen a lot of that recently.
- [22:23]
B
Uh huh.
- [22:24]
A
It's interesting actually.
- [22:25]
B
Right. And so yeah.
- [22:26]
A
And because of that, I need you to not do these things that are gonna help propel you towards your goals. Because I can't endure a season.
- [22:33]
B
Right. And it's typically because that person's never even seen the person go through a season. So if you go from being, you know, basically I'll use it like a simple me business owner example. It's like, well, if you're starting a business then, and you've been in a relationship with a person for a year or two, then it's like they've only seen that one thing and they don't even know what a season looks like. And I think seasons do last longer. Seasons are sometimes three years, five years. And some people aren't willing to deal with that, which I think is fine. It's just that if you are being influenced by that person, then be sure that that's the trade you want to make.
- [23:09]
A
It's interesting cause when I was listening.
- [23:10]
B
To cause some trains only take off once, that's tweet.
- [23:17]
A
Was it Jensen? And it's funny because he's one of the most successful people in this world. And I mean he talked about it, he was like, I have un, wavering support and not even just support, but encouragement from everyone around me. He's like, and I do not think that anybody can achieve outlandish goals without that. It is a requirement, not a luxury. And when he said that, I was like, man, it's a requirement to have people like this around you. And that really made me think about like we have people come to us all the time and say, I have these goals. And what's hard for me is when they want help with every single thing besides the things that they don't want to look at, which are who are you surrounding yourself with in and outside of work? I don't want to touch what people do outside of work. But it has more influence. I mean there's so many studies on this. Who you're with outside of work has more influence on your work than inside of work. It's so difficult because it's like, how do you toe the line between I genuinely want to Help people. I want them to achieve their goals, whether they be here or somewhere else. I also have my own. I know in their perspective, they're like, well, Layla obviously wants me to work harder and be here. And also it's like, I don't actually give a shit. Like, in general, I want you to be the best human you can be, but I also have.
- [24:34]
B
I want you to work harder, for sure.
- [24:38]
A
But it's been such an interesting line to toe because I can see so plain as day when it's interfering with someone's goals, even when it doesn't seem. It's not insidious. It never is. It's not. Because the easy ones are the ones that are just like, yeah, you should break up with that person. They're hitting you. You know what I mean? Or whatever. But it's always the difficult ones. And it's just interesting to see that.
- [25:02]
B
And we were talking about this, and so when we got thinking about the word requirements, right, like, this is a requirement for success, this is a requirement for the next level. And maybe this spouse can support you up to this level of your career, but will not be able to support you for the next level. So it's. In some ways it's like that spouse. I think there's some Michelle Obama quote or something like that, but basically it's like she does some quip that if she had dated a different guy, that guy would have become president, whatever it is.
- [25:31]
A
Oh, interesting.
- [25:34]
B
Insofar to say that her support was so meaningful, that that's one of the things that got Obama elected. But I think that there's. But there's elements of truth to that concept, which is there are some significant others and some significant spouses that may only be able to be with you for this season. And then it's a tough reality that you'll have to face, which is either they need to change or you do, which often means you have to change your goals, which means you change yourself. Or they have to change what they're willing to tolerate or what they're willing to accept, or you just find other people. And I think a lot of people really don't like that. Yeah, but when we were talking about this with regards to teammates, we even were, like, tossing around the idea of, like, maybe we should be interviewing spouses, because it has such a. I mean, it has a perfect correlation. We could not find a single person that became not only started well but then continued to rise. And what was interesting is there were some people who started who had higher potential when they came into our companies but then slowly faded or fizzled or got distracted or, you know, like, just. It was clear that things. Their priorities changed. Right? And in every one of those situations, there was a spouse who was pulling them out. And on the other hand, we had people who I would say had mediocre potential, but then we just kept seeing them just, like, improve and get better. And then we'd finally meet the spouse and be like, oh, this makes complete sense. Because, you know, in a guy situation, the wife's like, whatever he needs so that he can do a good job, I'm here to support. So I've got the home front down. If he needs to work weekends or he has to work late, I get it. You guys have a job to do. And he loves his job and he loves this work. He finds it really meaningful. And I just want to support him in that because I love seeing him get his dreams come true. When you have that at home, it's really hard to fail, too.
- [27:24]
A
I mean, I think of, like, you know, Yasmeen and how, like, unwavering, huh?
- [27:31]
B
Yeah.
- [27:31]
A
Is the opposite. Yes. But that's my reality, right? And Ricky would literally do anything. He wore the Jim launch swag, he wore the hat. He ran races in the Jim launch swag. And he came when he could to, like, any company thing. And he'd be like, love you guys. You know, like, just like, all he did was try and support her so much that now he works here and they work together. Because he. Even when times were hard, he would message me and be like, she needs a little extra encouragement today. Like, how, like. And I know she'd get so pissed off when she would find out that he would message me, but I was like, we're both trying to help her achieve her goals. And that is, like, I think about, like, why she's always been able to continuously improve and impress me with, like, how much she can take on. And it's because there's just. It's like, if you were to test him, he's like, no, this is what's best for her. She's growing, she's investing in herself. We're going to figure it out. And they're such a great team and how they work towards that. And then she does that for him, too. But it always really impressed me. I think that's when we see Maggie and Kale, how they were able to take on gymlaunch, just unwavering support in both directions. And the thing is, I think people think when you work in the same Business that it's like, oh, you get the luxury of having the same schedules and the same this. We so often it's completely opposite. So it's like, you'll be like, hey, I'm not gonna make it for dinner.
- [28:50]
B
I'm like, cool, I gotta do this speaking thing.
- [28:52]
A
You want me make you oatmeal? So when you get home, you got this thing. Do you wanna. You know what I mean? Or I'm like, hey, I can't, you know, have lunch together, do this because, like, I'm handling this thing over. It's like, yep, got it. Understood.
- [29:00]
B
Like, I want to hit on the. Meg and Kelsey think it's really interesting. So. And I think when. When. And if they listen to this, they won't take this. They'll take it the right way.
- [29:11]
A
Okay.
- [29:12]
B
I mean, Kale came in as a frontline sales rep. Maggie came in as a frontline customer service. And both of them, over years, worked their way up to the top two positions in that company. And so I see that as when we talk about potential versus actual. They came in with few experiential skills, but because both of them reinforced working hard and doing a good job and did this with a newborn kid and a young child and the gym that they had in the beginning, which they eventually sold and then continued to go more all in on this, that is the virtuous cycle of having a supportive spouse who gets what they see themselves as a unit. So they think of. And I think this is probably one of the bigger meta things between couples, is that unless you see the unit as one, it becomes very difficult to be supportive. And I also think that there is a high degree of trust between the spouses and us. So, like with Yaz, for example, it's like, I think Ricky knows that we just want to, like, we just want to help. Like, we're never.
- [30:24]
A
It's in eight years.
- [30:25]
B
Like, we just want to help. Like, in whatever way we can. We just want to help. And I think there's trust there. And so if. If we were like, hey, Ricky, I think she needs to work seven days straight and she can't see the kids. Which we would not ask that. But I'm just saying that's my hypothetical extreme. He'd be like, if they're asking for this, they understand the cost, and they still think it's worth it for her. And so there's a level of trust there. And I think that takes time to build and whatnot. And obviously, it takes character and. And track record to show that you have consistently delivered on the promises that you've made. But I think that's how you create lifers in terms of, like, it's really just, like, families being involved in the success of a company and building a team more than just individuals.
- [31:15]
A
Yeah, that makes a lot of sense. And I think the piece on the unit, too. It's like, I even think about the verbiage we use with each other. It's like, we're always like, thank God there's two of us all the time. Literally, like, all the time. And I don't see it, like, when. It's so interesting when people, like, do you feel competitive? And I'm like, we're.
- [31:32]
B
Yeah.
- [31:34]
A
What? Like, I'm like, I enable so that he can win. You enable so I can win. We know what we're both focused on and how we win together. It's such an interesting question because it's like, I even think people, even sometimes closer to us are like, oh, well. It's like, people don't know how close we really are. You know how in sync we are.
- [31:54]
B
Yeah, that one's so interesting, because I've heard you being on a podcast, they're like, so you feel competitive with Alex. It's like. It's like, almost a demonstration of how little you understand our relationship.
- [32:05]
A
Like, I create the environment for him to be competitive with other people.
- [32:08]
B
Right. We are very competitive against other people.
- [32:12]
A
Yeah. It's like. It's like being on the football team, and you're, like, watching somebody. It just makes no sense.
- [32:19]
B
Like, if you're captain of the cheerleading team, you, for some reason don't want the quarterback to score the winning touchdown because you want to look better than the quarterback does that day. But if the team wins, everyone wins.
- [32:29]
A
Yeah, it is. Yeah. So interesting. And I'm trying to think of, like, I don't even know what creates. Because there are people that can be married or working together, but they don't have that level of all in. They're not a team.
- [32:43]
B
They're not all in.
- [32:44]
A
Yeah. I don't know where that comes from. The only thing I can think is us eating shit for two years.
- [32:48]
B
But I do think that. And this is me being a little pro marriage. I do think that things feel different when you get married. Cause I remember when we got married, and for us, it wasn't a. We didn't have a wedding. We just signed paperwork and we were officially married. We worked that morning, and then we worked the next day. But I think there was a huge backdoor anxiety or worry of that one potential of are they really in? And then I think at that point, you can really just say, this is us. This is our family. This is our unit. This is how this benefits the whole. And then the decisions, in my opinion, should get made from there. I think a lot of couples just never even get there, even when they are married, because marriage is still just a legal contract. But at least for me, I intended to not get married again. And so it was like, all right, well, we're all in. We will make this work as long as we're both oriented towards growing.
- [33:49]
A
I think that's actually the key, which is, like, we both said, like, I don't want to have to be married twice. I want to be all in. Because we're both like, I don't want to have this to be.
- [33:57]
B
Dear God, no.
- [33:58]
A
I mean, the drama and the ups and downs of people that have to get divorced and do all this stuff, it's just, like a waste of life. And so it's like, I think we both went on the fundamental belief that if we need to change, we will to make it work. And I think we have both adapted to each other in many ways. That has also made us each better in our own. And I think we always look at it as, like, you know, like, this will make me better as well. If it wouldn't, then that would be, like, okay, if I would have to change, it's going to make me worse as a person, and it's not aligned with my values. Sure. But, like, in what instance has that ever occurred? Never. It always makes us better.
- [34:34]
B
Yeah. I think the big one was the goal and mission alignment. Because if that. I think that, like, under what. Cause I think, like, you know, under what context would we not be together? Right. It would be if one of our goals, if we didn't want the same thing fundamentally. And I think that's really just what it comes down to. And I think a lot of people don't pick their spouses based on what their shared goals are. I mean, some people don't even talk about their goals before they get married, which I find ridiculous. That was like, our first date. Yeah. First date. I was like, this is what I want to do. Would you like to come with me?
- [35:08]
A
Yeah. But I think that that's not. It's because most people don't know their goals.
- [35:12]
B
Yeah. Yeah.
- [35:13]
A
You know what I mean?
- [35:14]
B
Yeah.
- [35:15]
A
And I think even now, like, we're able to articulate our goals so much better than we were in the beginning. We just Knew we were, like, trying to fucking go places. You know what I mean? And, like, I'll do whatever it takes.
- [35:24]
B
Yeah.
- [35:25]
A
Hunger.
- [35:25]
B
But it's been like. And if the. If the goal shifted, it was more like it got clearer more than it changed.
- [35:31]
A
Yeah.
- [35:32]
B
It was blurry, but it was like, in the beginning, it was directional. It was like, I want to go this way, and we'll figure it out as we go. But if one day you were like, I don't want to build these things. I don't want to build hospitals and build cities and do this. You know, all this, like, see what two people can do in one lifetime, I would. It would be very hard for me because it would be asking me to not be me.
- [35:53]
A
Yeah.
- [35:53]
B
And I don't know if I would be able to do that.
- [35:56]
A
I wouldn't expect you to.
- [35:57]
B
No. And I think that. I'm saying, I think fundamentally because we both shared that goal the whole time. I've never felt like I've. I mean, we get probably. I'm sure, lots of flack from the Internet for this, but, like, I've never felt like I've had to make sacrifices for you.
- [36:11]
A
Mm.
- [36:12]
B
Like, I haven't had to compromise my goals, which is another way of saying I haven't had to compromise myself in order to be in our relationship.
- [36:19]
A
Yeah. I think I was really nervous in the beginning, and then over time, you only continually reinforced to me that I could be myself because it was so many years of conditioning to hide what I really wanted. And I think that's actually, like, what you've taught me a lot is just, like, complete self acceptance. A lot of it has been, like, me just sharing things with you of, like, how I really feel or, like, some may say, like, the dark side or, like, dark desires and the things that I want that feel in contrast with what maybe society projects on what I should want. And you've always just been, like, incredibly accepting every time. Even, like, when I was like, dude, I don't want to make dinner every night. I don't want to do all this stuff. And, like, I was really worried. I was like, oh, my gosh. Like, this is. But I was like, it's not aligned with my goals. Like, me cooking dinner every night to be a good wife. I value myself here. Leading people, making people's lives better. That lights me up. Making lasagna does not. And you were like, I don't even give a fuck.
- [37:16]
B
Yeah. I said, if you want to make dinner, I will be happy that you made dinner. If you want to make money. I will be happy that you made money.
- [37:25]
A
I think the question that people need to ask themselves is, does this person make it easier or harder to achieve my goals? And it doesn't mean that they're actively trying to sabotage you.
- [37:34]
B
It doesn't mean they're a bad person.
- [37:36]
A
No, it doesn't mean any of that. It's just like, it's that simple of a question. Also, I think the proxy to that is like, do I respect myself more or less being in a relationship with this person? That's something that I prompted to, you know, a friend of mine months ago when they were trying to navigate a really tough relationship, and I was like, do you? I watch you lose respect for yourself every day that you're in a relationship, because this person is actually. You're trying to go towards your goals and they're actively dragging you away. It was somewhat active sabotage. And then it's like, not only are you not going towards your goals, but you're actually degrading your sense of self.
- [38:17]
B
I think it's also the like, what traits about this person do I admire? Number one? Because whatever they have is going to rub off on me. And then if I see myself with a blend of my traits and theirs does that new person is that new person more or less likely to achieve my current goals. And so, like, I know that I need to be more patient. And so you having patience is like, yeah, if I had some of that rub off on me, that'd be a good thing. Hey, if I was a little more empathetic, that would probably rub off. That would probably be a good thing. That would probably increase the less that I hit my goals. And I think a lot of people have really mid, like, significant others just really like, bleh. Like just a human. Great. Congrats. They're like, this person did not leave when I was there. It's like, well, that's cool.
- [39:07]
A
It's actually interesting. Cause we even met somebody who said like, I met this girl on a date and she just never left. And that's why they were with them.
- [39:17]
B
They got married.
- [39:17]
A
They're like, yeah, she brought her bags. And then we just. First date, kept dating. I was like, do you ever pause to think that this is the right person for you?
- [39:24]
B
Yeah, she just hung around again. It's like, does this like, I love the sword of Gryffindor from Harry Potter. I say it again, but it had an enchantment on it, which was. It only drinks in that, which makes it stronger. And I think it's like, you're gonna. You are that metal, you are that sword, and you're gonna be putting yourself into a bath with this other person. But you may not only taking that which makes you stronger, you may just take in everything, and that may end up making you weaker. And when I say weaker, I mean less likely to achieve the things that you want or become the person that you want to become. And I think it's very hard for people because everyone is just so afraid of being alone. And I think maybe the first step is being okay with being alone. Being like, I would rather be with just me than be with someone who makes me less like me in order to be with them.
- [40:14]
A
I mean, I remember, well, before we met, I'd been alone for, like, almost two years. I got out about a relationship, and I was like, what am I doing? I don't want to recreate that again, you know? And I think being alone was. It's just never. And even so, like, even now, if I'm like, I. Like, we both actually really, like alone time, which I think is really important in terms of, like, we don't have, like, high requirements. You know what I mean? Everything's such a bonus, which I think is actually what I really like is things that, when I was young, were told, like, you need. You have needs. You have emotional needs. You have these. I think it was all a fucking lie. And I think it's actually really unhealthy if you have to put, quote, needs upon a partner. And I think I've become such a better person and a better spouse for looking at things as, like, bonuses. Like, if we get to spend an afternoon together on Sunday afternoon, bonus. But if you tell me that you have to work or I tell you that I have to work, fine. I'm not gonna be upset about it. I'm gonna go do stuff for myself.
- [41:17]
B
Right. Like, a lot of people don't know how to be busy, basically. A lot of people have nothing going on in their lives.
- [41:24]
A
Yeah, that's fair.
- [41:24]
B
And so they require their spouse or significant other for attention, affection, and approval.
- [41:30]
A
Dance monkey.
- [41:30]
B
They need them. Yeah. They're like, hey, I'm bored. Entertain me. And some people literally say that, which I find ridiculous. But I think a really good litmus test is, what does this person entering my life change about my behavior? And so thinking, okay, when I am on my own, I work out like this. I eat like this, I work like this. I go to sleep at this time. These are the social things that I find meaningful or interesting. Now when this person enters my life, how many of those things that, when I had nothing interfering with me, change in their expression? Do I work less? Do I work out less? Do I eat differently? Do I spend my time differently? Well, if that occurs, then all of those changes will certainly change the outputs of your life. And are those changes the outputs. Changes to the outputs what you want? And I think most people, if they really looked at themselves in the mirror, would be like, no.
- [42:18]
A
Yeah. I think there's something really interesting that I want to actually prompt you for, which was if you remember the person who, when you decided that you thought so we broke up. Let's rewind. We were dating. We'd been working together for, like, eight months, and then we broke up. This was the breakup for anyone watching. Alex was not talking to me much. And so I went into his office because we were working together, and I said, do you want to break up? And you said, yes. And then we broke up. There was no drama. There was no fight. And then I was like, I'm still.
- [42:52]
B
Going to go launch the gym. I think you said, do you want me to leave?
- [42:55]
A
I don't remember.
- [42:56]
B
I think this was.
- [42:56]
A
I thought it was. Do you want to break up? Either way, Maybe either way, sure. Then it was like, okay, well, we're still gonna work together. I want to go.
- [43:08]
B
Still talk every day after that.
- [43:09]
A
Yeah, I'm gonna go launch this gym. And then during that time, we still worked together, but we talked at the end of the day, and I would call you and tell you, like, what was going on at the facility, what happened, and what was the conversation that you had during that time? Because I always thought that was such a great way for, like, if somebody's watching this and they don't know how to know if somebody's right for them that somebody could use as a measurement tool.
- [43:32]
B
So I'll say two things that were kind of the most significant from that. So one is how Layla handled the exit gave me such great insight to her character, which was like, it would be really normal. I would say 95, not even 99 times out of 100, if I'd been in a relationship where someone had left what they were doing to come with me, and then, you know, we break up for whatever reason, they would probably just be like, screw this guy and everything associated with him. But, I mean, I've always said, like, you stood tall when things were crumbling around me. The reason that, for me, when you. As I recall, it said, do you want me to leave? The answer was, yes, because I was so overwhelmed. I had no bandwidth for anything. I was dealing with the DUI thing. I was dealing with the fraudulent partner. I had two other partners that were asking for me to do things in, like, three or four different businesses at the same time. I had nothing. Like, I had no bandwidth. I had zero attention. And so it was more like, I just can't right now. The idea of a relationship is so low on my priorities list right now that when she left, it was just basically less guilt around not doing what I was supposed to be doing or thought I should be doing. And so it gave me some attention back so I could create room. And so the first thing was how you behaved on the exit was so classy and so filled with character and all the traits that I would deem admirable. You still showed loyalty when I basically didn't show you any. And then you showed me respect when I probably wasn't respectable in that moment, I wasn't worthy of respect given how much my life was in shambles at that moment. And I think that was probably a big thing, number one of, like, Pro Layla. The other was that I saw a coach for 90 minutes every day during the time that you were gone for probably, like, five weeks, something like that. And during those 90 minutes every day, he would start with, what's top of mind? Like, what's on your mind? What's taking your attention? And so he would just slowly, we just start stripping away. Like, okay, let's deal with this. Let's deal with this. Let's deal with this. Just, like, kept working through this list, and when it came to, okay, so what are you gonna do about this girl? Because we're still talking every day, right?
- [45:56]
A
Only about work, though.
- [45:57]
B
Yeah. Which was amazing.
- [45:59]
A
What do we do now?
- [46:00]
B
Yeah, I know. Nothing's changed. And so he said, well, look at your stats. And I was like, what do you mean? He was like, look at your stats. He's like, when she's in your life, he's like, do you work out more or do you work out less? And I was like, well, she works out. So when she goes to the gym, I'm like, all right, I'll go. And if I want to go, she goes. So it's like we both. If one of us goes, the other one goes. And so I work out more because every time she wants to go and I don't want to go, I still go. He's like, okay. I was like, what about food? He's like, are you eating healthier or you're not eating. I was like, well, she preps food and she eats healthy. And so whatever she makes, it's. I'll eat right. And so, yeah, I'm actually, you know, I'm eating better meat, a little healthier. And he was like, okay. Plus, he's like, what about work? Does she support you with your work? And I was like, I mean, yeah, literally. She actually does the work with me, and I will literally take people when I'm busy so that I can stay, you know, like, she basically protects my space. And he was like, does she spend money? Do you make more now, just objectively than you did before? And I was like, yeah, way more. He was like, huh. So you're healthier, you work out more, you make more money. You have somebody who's not draining, not even neutral, but adding to your financial goals and is helping you focus. Because another part of this was I had all these different businesses. He's like, is she in favor of you having all this stuff or is she in favor of you focusing on one thing? And I was like, she just says focus on this one thing that's working. He was like, hmm, so she has good decision making. And I was like, yeah, so she helps you make good decisions. And so basically we just went column by column and everything was up. And he was like, maybe something to consider. And so when Layla came back, I basically just told her this exact same thing. And I was like, when I am with you, I am better. And so I would like to be better, and so I would like to be with you. And so I think fundamentally that was one of the main decision points in our relationship. And when she went there, also as a side note, so she showed me loyalty, she showed me respect, but also you crushed it. So it wasn't just like that. You went through the motions when you went into that launch when I wasn't there. You set the all time record. And I think that was so telling for me about the type of person you were. Because, like, I was always used to being the guy who had to put, you know, the team on, you know, his back or whatever to win the game. And it was just nice to have somebody else who could also, when the game was on the line. Fucking crush. And so I was like, man, if there's two of us who can win when the game's on the line, then every time I wasn't going to win. If you win, then it just increases the likelihood we both win. And so I think for all those reasons, it became a logical decision to be with you. And I think there's a lot of wisdom in this one part, which is if you stay together, if you are together because of your emotions, you will want to not be together when your emotions change. And emotions change all the time, but logic rarely does. And so if it logically makes sense for you to be together, then when you're emotional, the logic will still be there. It still makes sense for us to be together. And I think that's what has, at least for me, allowed me to have very little second guessing concern. It's just been like, no, this makes sense. Like, there's. This makes complete sense. There's no. I have very little air. There's very little movement in that for me.
- [49:43]
A
Yeah, I think it's. I think it was harder in the beginning and it gets easier over time. Yeah, Like, I think in the beginning we put in a lot of work. If I think about it, I think that we've gotten to, like, I don't know if, like, reap the reward of that over time. Like, it feels like it actually gets easier with time.
- [50:04]
B
It was a bet in the beginning.
- [50:05]
A
Yeah. Because it was so different from what either of us ever knew.
- [50:08]
B
Totally.
- [50:09]
A
But it just. And I think the first three years were really tough. First three, but like, now it just feels like just momentum, you know what I mean? Like our partnership, how we work together, how we understand each other. All those things take years to figure out.
- [50:26]
B
I have a question for you.
- [50:27]
A
Okay.
- [50:29]
B
So when you were away and then you came back, why did you decide to get back in the relationship?
- [50:35]
A
I think I just really understood where you were coming from. When we, when we broke up, like, I saw how things were. When you were like, yeah, I want you to leave or break up or whatever. I was like, yeah, that makes sense. I didn't take it personally.
- [50:54]
B
It wasn't personal.
- [50:55]
A
And I saw glimpses of you when you were not so stressed and inundated with all these decisions. And I really liked who that person was. And I felt like that we could really make each other better. And so I think that was part of it is like, I didn't cons. I didn't take it personally. And I wasn't humiliated, embarrassed, angered, Like, I wasn't angry about it. I didn't hold it against you in any way. So, like, the event itself of breaking up, like, was not a thing for me. I think that if I rewind. When I met you, I had had a list of all the character traits that I wanted in a person as well as, like, non negotiables And I remember that you matched DUI broke.
- [51:39]
B
All of those things. I was just checking.
- [51:40]
A
DUI broke. That happened after.
- [51:41]
B
Yeah.
- [51:42]
A
Catch 22.
- [51:42]
B
To be clear, I wasn't broke when Leila died. I became broke. Did that to myself.
- [51:49]
A
Yeah. And so I think that I grounded myself in that logic, and I saw that I. You represented a lot of things that I had deficiencies in. I think that, like, complete self acceptance. I don't know if you remember this. You know what I'm gonna say.
- [52:10]
B
Go for it.
- [52:11]
A
Like, it was like, our second date or something. Barely knew each other. And, like, you walked out of your room butt ass naked. I remember this. And you were on the phone. I was like, is he gonna come on? Like, what is going on? And then I literally remember you were like, what? And I was like, why? And you were like, I like walking around naked. And I. It's like, such a little thing. But it was like, wow, I judge myself so much that I don't even want to walk around naked to see myself because of how critical I am. And I was like, wow, that's, like, so freeing. They must feel so freeing to be able to do that and also do it in front of somebody and not care what they're gonna think or say. And somebody. You just, like so many things. The second was, you know, like, I think you told me on, like, our first second date, like, the worst things that you'd ever done. Like, you're basically, these are the worst things about myself, the worst things I've ever done, and I don't want any secrets. And I recognized that I, again, judged myself so harshly for so many things that I'd done in the past that it, like, crippled me with insecurity. And they weren't even things that were a big deal, but they were a big deal because I kept them to myself. And so I think that along the way, before that incident happened, like, I just recognized I had so much I could learn from you. And I thought that you would make me better because I recognized, like, those were things that I lacked myself. And I believed that if I partnered with somebody who had those things, and I did recognize as well the things that maybe you were looking for that I had. It felt like a mutual exchange. Like, we got to take the best of each other, and it would make both of us better. And honestly, I grounded myself in the logic the whole time, which was just like, this makes sense to me. And I think that I had read a lot about lasting relationships and how the relationships that made the most sense, logically, are the ones that last longest. And all my relationships prior to that had been easy in the beginning, harder later on. This had been harder in the beginning, and it has continued to get easier as time has gone on. Like, now it feels like riding a bicycle. So it's like, I understand you, you understand me. We know how to work together. It only gets better over time. And so it's really panned out.
- [54:22]
B
I think the exchange thing's really interesting because I don't think I ever felt like I had an exchange with the person that I was dating.
- [54:30]
A
What do you mean?
- [54:31]
B
Like, I never felt. Like, I never even felt transactional at all, with the exception of you.
- [54:36]
A
Oh.
- [54:37]
B
And I mean, this was almost like an ongoing joke for the first year of our relationship. I kept telling, saying to Layla, like, I don't know, if you're just, like, trying to absorb all the things that I know and then you're just going to leave with all of my skills. Like, it just. I felt like she would just nonstop be like, can you teach me how to do this? Can you show me how to do this? And I mean, I did have a lot of skills. And I was like, eh, you don't need to worry too much about that. I'll keep running the ads. You don't need to worry how that works. Cause I was so afraid that she would actually.
- [55:09]
A
You thought I was slippery?
- [55:10]
B
Yeah. This is my own insecurity. I thought that she would, like, if I taught her everything, I knew that she would have no more use for me. And so, I mean. And probably on some level, that's my own insecurity for always wanting to be useful for everyone. Like, always having skills to exchange. But anyways, no, when we. But I also learned a ton from you. And I think we talked about exchange a lot in the early days of our relationship. Mutual exchange. And I just think that. I don't think that that's common.
- [55:40]
A
Yeah. Like, how are we going to add value to each other's lives?
- [55:42]
B
Yeah. What are you gonna learn from me? What am I gonna learn from you?
- [55:44]
A
I think it's interesting because, like, when I think when I hear somebody say, like, should I just accept the fact that this person's not supportive? I think it's just a trade off, which is, like, you can keep them in your life, but you will lose respect for yourself, and you will likely also sacrifice these other things that you want. And so it's like, you could keep them in your life at what cost? And are you willing to pay the price of that. And some people are, and I think a lot of people aren't. But I think I always relate it back to, like, if being in a relationship with this person, I lose respect for myself, then all is lost. And I've been in relationships where I realized that I was losing respect for myself every day because they made me a worse person. And it didn't matter, like, their intention or how great they were in many different ways or how nice they were or anything. The fact that their influence was something that I had to fight or try and deflect in order to achieve my goals. I had one. An internal conflict, which was, like, I say I want these things, but I'm not willing to do what it takes because I'm not willing to get this person out of my life. And I under all. You know, even if I've been with this person for years, I knew that they weren't the person that was going to help me get to where I wanted to go. And then I had this internal conflict of, like, what do I do? Because I love this person. I care for this person. I don't think they're a bad person. I also feel like if I have them in my life, I can't achieve my goals. That conflict enough was enough for me to exit multiple relationships because I recognized it distracted me from everything. It distracted me from the relationship, it distracted me from my goals, and it distracted me from even, just, like, being alone with myself and my thoughts. And so, in a lot of ways, I didn't think it was worth the drama. I say drama as in distraction drama, whatever that it creates in your mind and in your life. And so even if you maintain it, I think the fact that, you know, it interferes with the things that you want creates enough drama that I'm just, like, I'm out. I don't have a tolerance for that.
- [57:54]
B
I think for me, it was. I've always had a greater fear of not living up to my potential than I have of being alone.
- [58:01]
A
Mm.
- [58:02]
B
And so, for me, that is the greater motivator. And I think a lot of people have a greater fear of being alone than not living up to their potential.
- [58:09]
A
Yeah. I do think that's the root of it.
- [58:11]
B
I mean, it's just, what do you fear most? And that's from away from. You could flip it to. Towards whatever. I'd rather have a meaningful relationship than achieve my goals or become the ultimate version of myself. Said in a positive tone. But I think if you. Let's say you were listening to this, or you're watching this and you're like, no, I do think I would rather become the ultimate version of me. And I don't think this person is the person. I think trying to break down what feels like a big event into, like, breaking up with somebody into its constituent parts makes it a lot easier to do. And so it's like, I don't want to break up with so. And so it's like, well, what it means is, like. And I overly simplify things on purpose to try and make them less intimidating. So it's like I have to vibrate my vocal cords in the direction of this person. And then after I do that, after a certain period of time, that person will leave, and then I will have to call a moving company in order to remove that person's belongings from my vicinity.
- [59:14]
A
We'll have to determine what happens with the animals. We will have to determine yet.
- [59:17]
B
Right. And then, like, and I will. And, like, again, once. Because the thing is, once you make that big break, then it's like, I don't care. Like, animals are not, you know, I mean, they're not going to help me become the ultimate version of myself or whatever. Right.
- [59:31]
A
No, I'm just saying, like, logistics.
- [59:33]
B
Yeah, no, totally. Yeah. Or I have to move to a different city now. It's like, okay, well, then I have to book a flight and I have to rent someplace. And so what we have now are expenses, not problems.
- [59:43]
A
I think that there's a lot of conditioning. And I think this is something that I've actually seen a couple of people that we know do it really well, where, like, it has to be a very bad thing.
- [59:50]
B
Right.
- [59:51]
A
But if you're breaking up with somebody in order to get into a relationship with yourself and with your goals, why would you not be happy about that? Yes, you're going to feel loss, which can cause you to feel sad, but you also fill that hole with something that you were. You had sacrificed the entire time. And so I think there's so much stigma around it, I should feel sad for a certain period of time when I was with this person for a period of time. And people feed into it, too, of like, oh, my gosh, that's half the.
- [60:22]
B
Amount of time you've been in a relationship.
- [60:24]
A
Exactly. It was bullshit. And I think, you know, before I met you, I was in a relationship. And then I went to a therapist, and she was probably, like, the only good therapist I've ever seen. And I remember I said, like, you know, I just feel really sad because I'm not with this person anymore. And she said, well, when did you break up? And I was like, well, you know, seven weeks ago.
- [60:41]
B
Whatever.
- [60:41]
A
It's almost been two months. I was like, but I heard it takes half the time that you're with somebody to get over somebody. She was like, I think that's stupid. And I was like, stupid. And I remember she was like, I think takes as long as you want it to. Layla. I was like, okay, so what does that mean? She's like, how about Thursday? And I was like, what? And she's like, yeah, how about by Thursday you're over it? And I was like, what does that mean? She's like, we stopped talking about it, and you move on. And it was so funny, because it's like, my relationship prior to that one, I would say, like, I had dwelled on the breakup, and it had been, like, a whole mess of a thing for months, and it, like, distracted me from moving off my life. I didn't feel any better about myself for it. I certainly wasn't happy. And this time it was like, I actually maintain a fairly positive view of the relationship because the way it ended was not so traumatic. I just moved on with my life. And I think so many people, they use words like heartbroken. I am heartbroken. I feel like a part of me has died. It's like, no, your heart has not broken. Nothing has died. You are no longer in a relationship with somebody, and the reality is, you're gonna find somebody else and fucking forget about them in five years.
- [61:56]
B
So said, in terms of behaviorism, you have a contingency of positive reinforcement that has been removed from your life.
- [62:05]
A
Yeah. Replace it.
- [62:06]
B
And so what happens is you simply, like, getting over someone is simply, how quickly can you replace this source of positive reinforcement? That's literally it. And so I think that for my life, I've been. Maybe this isn't shocking to people, shockingly resilient to breakups, like, to the point of people being like, you must be a sociopath. But I think that I've just always had this big bucket of positive reinforcement that I get from my work. That basically, whatever hole is there, I can fill it with the thing that I want to do with all my time anyways. And so it's like, oh, cool. I have this empty hole, and I will just pour the stuff that I love doing anyways into that hole. And then I'm like, basically, I have the same amount of positive reinforcement in my life. I just switch sources. And this is where there's old adages like, the way to get over somebody is to find somebody else. And some people hate that idea. But I actually think it's fundamentally, it's just true. Some people have social, societal norms. It's like, why is it that at six months it's okay to start dating somebody else? It's like, well, you have to process. It's like, what does processing even mean? You have to be good on your own, which I agree with. But I think that just means that you have to know how to find positive reinforcement stimuli in your life on your own so that you can't. So you are not beholden to someone. Because if I require this person's positive reinforcement in order to exist, then it's codependency in my view of the world. And so I just walked somebody in our company through this, but I wanted to give him warning flags. I said, so this is what's going to happen. You're going to have this conversation, you're going to figure out the logistics of moving, you know, separating belongings, whatever. And I was like, and then what's gonna happen is the first week, you know, you're gonna have all this time that you didn't know you had. And I was like, and I would encourage you to fill it with the work that you find the most meaningful and with some of the habits that you wanted to do when you were in the relationship but you couldn't do for logistical constraints or whatever. Like, they didn't wanna work out. You wanna work out whatever. It's like, so fill it with that stuff. Now, in a few weeks after that, what you'll start feeling is again, a longing for that person. And that is again, a reminder of the positive reinforcement that you used to have. The issue is that negatives fade with time, positives remain. And so, by the way, this is just why in general, like, when you train with reward versus punishment, reward sticks, punishment doesn't. And so that's why when you drink and you have a hangover, the next day you're like, I'll never drink again. And the next weekend you're drinking because the punishment of drinking has faded in terms of its importance to you, but the positive reward associated with drinking hasn't. And so that's why you keep going back. And so the bad relationships are a lot like drinking, where you then start yearning for the drunken high of seeing that person again and the positive things, because obviously you got a relationship for a reason. There's some positives they gave you, but you forget. And as soon as you get back into it or you talk. If anybody's ever gotten back into a relationship or, like, kind of started down the path again, then they like, oh, my God, I forgot all these things. This person's crazy. I forgot all these mood swings or whatever it was right then you're reminded of the hangover. You're reminded of the punishment. And so then I told the individual, I said, write down all of the bad things, all of the reasons that you're choosing to do this. And I said, when you have those, read it again to remind yourself of the punishment that you were choosing to do away with. And when I say punishment, I say that in the very literal, behavioral sense. I'm not saying the person was hitting them or anything like that. I'm just saying there's just aversive consequences to being in the relationship. They couldn't do some of the things they wanted to do, and they had to give up some of the things they did. So what do you think about changing a spouse or partner in order to, like, you're like, okay, well, I'm not sure. I'm on the fence. Like me, there's elements of this person that I like. There's elements of this person that I don't like. So, for example, in the beginning, you said you had seen glimpses of a version of me that you. That you like, but obviously had some other behaviors, that I drank too much too often, blah, blah, blah. How do you see changing?
- [66:03]
A
I think I view it the same way that I view somebody in the workplace, which is, what's their rate of progress and what's my return on my effort going to be? You know, I think the drinking thing, like, you acknowledged yourself that that was an issue, prompted the conversation with me. I was fully prepared to, like, be like, I. If this happens again, like, I can't because I have too much history with this. It's just like, too, you know, whatever. And you prompted it. You immediately stopped progress. So I think when I. When I think about, can you change somebody? I think the question is, at what cost? And then how quickly do they change? And if somebody's less intelligent, they probably take longer to change. And I think that they have to change on their own volition, which is the difficult part, because if you're trying to change somebody in a direction they don't want to go, I think that's the fundamental. Are you trying to change them to be somebody they don't want to be? I mean, the amount of times that people come to me and they say, how do I get my Wife to be like, Layla, I want to. I know it's ridiculous, but come on. And I'm like. I was like this. You don't understand. Like, it's not like Alex met me, and now all of a sudden, I wanted all these things. Like, I wanted those things and met him, and it worked between us, but people don't believe me. So the first is that I do not think that you will succeed in trying to change somebody to be something that they don't want to be, it will be very difficult. The second piece is, if you're going to change somebody, the question is, how long is it going to take? And what price do you pay for that? What costs do you incur in the time it's going to change for that person to change? And so, like, the example is, like, the drinking thing. It was immediate. So it's like, obviously you're very smart and you can change quickly. If somebody has. There's an aversive event that occurs or something occurs, they give feedback, and it. It doesn't happen immediately. All right, well, it's going to take a while. And I think the third piece to it is, if they are changing, how quickly do they change? Because again, it's just like, how long are you going to have to wait to resolve a situation where to get it to a point where it's a relationship that is productive rather than destructive? And if you have to endure a destructive relationship for three or four more years, but you're in that sweet spot, like 28, you're 30, you're 33, whatever it might be. Yeah, like, that's. That's kind of your golden era. So it's like, I think I look through it, like, can I change this person? Do they want to change? If I do invest the time in changing them, what is my return on my effort? All right, Is even worth my fucking time? Or should I just start over from scratch and find somebody else, get a version 2.0? Like, seriously, I think about that with employees. It's how I think about investing in somebody to stay. Is. Is this worth the return on effort? Or would it be easier to start over with somebody else who is more aligned with the goals that I also have and already has some of these skills, character traits, whatever.
- [68:51]
B
One of the most attractive things. So you had, like, that moment when I walked out naked or whatever an equivalent moment for me was. I think I've told this story before, but when I would say something funny, you would laugh and then be like, you're stupid. Like, you do whatever that thing is. And I remember, I don't know, a few months into our relationship, I was just like, hey, just so you know, I don't really like that. If you could not say that when you're laughing, that would mean a lot to me. And so from that day, and it's been years now, you have never done that since. And it's just like a micro example of your ability to change quickly. And I, you know, didn't have the same words I have now back then, but I used to say like, you were the most coachable human being I've ever met. And so like, your ability to respond to feedback quickly and permanently is unmatched. And when I saw that, I was like, wow, this is this like, basically, if someone is extraordinarily coachable, then you can actually overcome a huge deficiency quickly. And so that you get a very high return on investment because you yourself also get rewarded for prompting the change or the suggestion. And I think also having the candor or the relationship where you can give feedback to the other person. And this is where I think humility is important. And self awareness, where if you were to go to your spouse and say, hey, when you leave your stuff out, it makes me feel like you don't care about this house at all or that you expect me to pick everything up after you. If you could not do that, it would mean a lot to me. And if that person says, I had no idea I'll not a problem, or says, I hate doing that, if I do this solution, does that solve the problem? In either of those situations, they're trying to ameliorate whatever the problem is. And if they can do that immediately, then I see that as a very promising thing. It's just that most people can't. And so I think a lot it's like. But I mean, for me, and I think we see things really similarly, like when we look at teammates that we're trying to bring on, I think we more and more have continued to look for people who have very rapid changes in behavior with feedback, which we define as intelligence. And so if you have a dum dum as a significant other and when you give feedback, they cannot change, whether that's because of ego or because of incompetence makes it very hard to be with somebody. Because the thing is, conditions are going to change and so you are going to have preferences that shift over time. Now the stoic response is like, basically deal. But I would prefer to use as much of my deal with it rubber band of Resilience on other stuff that is not my spouse. And I think this is actually the big discussion we were having actually relation to this whole thing was that very competent people, people who have high potential, are still high potential people when they have a negative or detracting spouse. It's just that 50% of their intellectual effort is going into managing the relationship that they have rather than getting a productive output for that effort. It's like they have to spend all of this emotional time and effort into managing their emotions, managing, not getting angry, dealing with this person who when they get home, has this big flare or tantrum for the fact that they came home late or they didn't fulfill some unspoken expectation that they have. Like, that takes a lot to manage. And so all of a sudden, like, how they're dealing with their team or their subordinates or their. Or their supervisors, whatever it is, starts to falter. But it actually doesn't mean that the person in any way has less potential or less raw effort or talent. It's just that they're being drained from this other person. And a lot of times they're just not even aware of it.
- [72:33]
A
It's like people who are super overweight and then they lose weight. And it's like, you watch this because this attention, it was taking their attention. I think one of the things that we talk about the most is how much we value our relationship. Not only just not taking attention and not having drama, but giving us attention back. You know what I mean? And I think that's something we both value a lot.
- [72:51]
B
I like being left alone a lot. And I think if you have that preference, it's worth stating and delineating that for your spouse or significant other, saying, like, there's a very big difference between I don't want to be with you and I would rather be with myself. And a lot of people take that as like, why don't you want to be with me? What, you're mad at me? Why are you upset? And you're like, it has nothing to do with you. You were not involved in this equation. And I think being able to explain that you've always taken that. I mean, it's never even been an issue. You're like, I like being alone too.
- [73:22]
A
I was like, I like being alone too.
- [73:24]
B
So it works out great. Yeah, it's like, if you're alone, I'm like, great, I'll have time for me too. I specifically have very little need for quality time. I feel like if you and I saw each other once a week, we obviously see each other more than that, but if we saw each other once a week, I would be like, I'm good. I don't need a lot. Or I don't have a high requirement for that. And I think that trying to find somebody who has a similar match of needs or requirements also just makes significantly less compromise occur. And I think that benefits both people. If one person's like, I want to have quality time all the time. You have to call me every day, you have to, we need to spend three hours every night together. That can be tough if you're like, I don't need that now, because then means that those three hours are basically just a cost for you. Again, there's exchanges. Is it worth it? Maybe. I don't know. But one of the things that I've repeatedly said of why I think this relationship has worked so well, at least for me, has been my behavior before and after us being together changed minimally. And you more or less accepted the preferences that I had in terms of and didn't cast judgment on them. It wasn't like, oh, he is this way, therefore it is bad. It was just like, he is this way. And that works well because I am this way as well. And so it ended up just being a mutual benefit. And I think if you're matching up, like you have the basic traits of the person and your traits and how much they mesh, and then for the in between stuff, where those things are mismatched is how coachable is that person to match the preferences you may have in basically solutioning to figure out things that can be mutually beneficial for both of you. Like the. If I got a vendor to clean my socks up and pick them up because I don't feel like picking them up, does that solve the problem?