You Need to Stop Saying “Sorry” | Spotify Video Exclusive

Summary

Podcast Summary: Build with Leila Hormozi

Episode: You Need to Stop Saying “Sorry” | Spotify Video Exclusive
Host: Leila Hormozi
Date: June 7, 2024

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Episode Overview

This episode of Build with Leila Hormozi aims to dissect the effectiveness and overuse of apologies—especially in business and team contexts. Leila, with insights from her own leadership journey and interactions with teams scaling to massive revenues, argues that apologies are only meaningful when accompanied by plans for tangible behavior change. She challenges the cultural tendency to overvalue verbal apologies and emphasizes the crucial need for accountability and demonstrable growth.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Defaulting to Apologies: Social and Workplace Dynamics

• Apologies are Overvalued:
  Taylor initiates the idea that culturally, we overvalue apologies and often excuse behavior with a simple “I’m sorry.” (00:34)
• Words vs. Actions:
  Leila highlights, “Instead of getting good at apologizing, get good at just not doing the thing.” She stresses that apologies without subsequent action are meaningless. (00:00)

2. Defining a Real Apology

• Apology Requires Commitment:
  Leila explains her practice: “Here's what I'm going to do moving forward. And then I commit to a plan... Me putting a plan in place and determining what I need to do differently is going to make it better.” (00:39)
• Collaborative Solutions:
  Whether behavior change is planned individually or collaboratively, the focus must shift to fixing the issue—not just smoothing it over. (01:28)

3. The Cycle of Meaningless Apologies

• Team Impact:
  Repetitive apologies destroy team culture. Leila describes scenarios where an unchanging employee’s apologies have led entire departments to underperform or disengage. (02:00–03:15)
• No Feedback, No Change:
  She criticizes the inaction after apologies: “There's no behavior change, there's no feedback given. Sometimes there is feedback but no demonstration of change.” (02:55)

4. Intent vs. Impact

• Intent is Irrelevant:
  Leila bluntly notes, “No thought or feeling that you claim to have had ... is going to change their mind. They just have the evidence, which is that you acted in...” (04:51)
• Perception Dictates Reality:
  Actions define identity in the eyes of others, regardless of intent. (04:47–05:21)

5. Limits to Coaching Problem Behavior

• Leader’s ROI on Effort:
  Leila questions whether leaders should spend their time trying to reform difficult employees:
  "What's my return on my effort for changing that person's behavior? Could I get a larger return if I put my efforts onto the people who don't have these adverse behaviors?" (06:20–07:56)
• Sometimes, “Helping” Isn’t Worth It:
  Even if leaders can help someone change, that doesn’t mean they should. (07:13)

6. Forgiveness vs. Moving Forward

• Redefining Forgiveness:
  Rather than seeing forgiveness as excusing the behavior, it should focus on, “What can we do to prevent that behavior from happening again?” (08:00)
• Frequency Matters:
  She considers the frequency of mistakes—is the person improving or repeatedly falling into the same patterns? (08:00–08:53)
• Emotional Release:
  The idea of “forgiveness” as releasing anger is discussed, with Leila challenging whether emotional release is productive compared to focusing on the future. (09:04–10:10)

7. Action Over Emotion

• Don’t Indulge Emotion:
  Leila advocates for not wallowing in negative feelings, but instead, reorienting quickly to solutions:
  “It’s like purposely making yourself the victim of a feeling. Why would I ever purposely make myself the victim of anything?” (10:10)
• Practical Application:
  When upset, Leila finds value in lowering emotional reactivity and giving neutral responses, seeing far better outcomes in both work and personal relationships. (11:31)

8. Advice for Mistake-Makers

• Show, Don’t Tell:
  Leila’s guidance: “If you really want to apologize, show them with your actions. You agree it was unacceptable... saying words to somebody seems lazy... Committing to an action plan demonstrates an apology.” (10:49–11:09)
• Learning is Behavioral:
  “You can't say, you learned your lesson until you do something different.” (11:19–11:21)
• Verbal Apology as a Start?
  Ideally, the focus should be on committing to a new action, not just saying sorry and moving on. (12:46–12:57)

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Notable Quotes & Timestamps

• Leila on the futility of empty apologies:
  “Instead of getting good at apologizing, get good at just not doing the thing.” (00:00)
• On team dynamics:
  “You see how it translates into the performance of the business... the team avoids them and hides from them and you keep them on the team anyways.” (02:46)
• On intent vs. perception:
  “People perceive you as a mean person. No thought or feeling that you claim to have had ... is going to change their mind.” (04:51)
• On behavior change:
  “You can't say, you learned your lesson until you do something different.” (11:21)
• Action over words:
  “Show me. Don’t tell me.” (10:49)
• On future focus:
  “When I focus on the future, what I’m gonna do next, I am much happier... When I’m focusing on an emotion tied to a past event, I feel much more anxious and depressed.” (09:21–10:01)

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Key Segments & Timestamps

• 00:00–01:20: Opening discussion on the cultural weight of apologies and the ineffectiveness of empty words.
• 01:20–03:28: How apologies without change foster negative cycles in workplace dynamics.
• 03:28–05:39: The disconnect between intent and the reality of actions.
• 05:39–07:56: Practical limits for leaders trying to change team members’ behavior.
• 08:00–10:10: Redefining forgiveness and the importance of focusing on solutions and future behavior.
• 10:10–12:57: Concrete advice: avoid emotional indulgence, take responsibility, and prove learning through actions.

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Conclusion

Leila’s episode challenges listeners—whether leaders or team members—to raise their standards around accountability. “Sorry” is not enough; only demonstrated change counts. Leaders must weigh whether the investment to change a problematic team member’s behavior is worthwhile, and everyone must move past rumination and apology rituals to future-focused solutions.

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For builders and leaders: The episode’s core message is clear—stop relying on apologies as a substitute for action. Demonstrate growth, prioritize future behavior over wordy regret, and invest your energy where it yields the highest return for your team and business.

Transcript

[Alex]

If somebody says, I'm sorry, I don't give a. Like, instead of getting good at apologizing, get good at just not doing the thing you're doing something else. I think I could start off with I just want to, like, get into it. You know what I mean? So context behind it, I think is there's been, like, multiple situations recently where different people have acted a certain way that has been mean or just like, bullying. But then they apologize and then say, that's not what I meant to do. And I'm like, I don't give a fuck. Like, instead of getting good at apologizing, get good at just not doing the thing. You're doing something else.

[Taylor]

We have a culture of we overvalue apologies.

[Alex]

I think most people do things because other people do things. It is in many cases socially acceptable. Or it's normal that when somebody says I'm sorry, we excuse the behavior and do not expect them to change or anything. We don't put a plan in place. If somebody was really sorry, they would change their behavior. Like, I've realized for myself, even with, like, Alex, for example, I will say I'm sorry, but I actually say I am sorry. Here's what I'm going to do moving forward. And then I commit to a plan with myself of how I'm going to change my behavior. And so I don't think, oh, me saying I'm sorry is going to change the relationship or make it better. Right? Saying I'm sorry isn't going to make our relationship better. It's not going to change my behavior. Me putting a plan in place and determining what I need to do differently is going to make it better.

[Taylor]

It seems like that's the difference in like, an apology. And a real apology believe you would accept is if it is accompanied by commitment to action.

[Alex]

I would say it's commitment to a plan, which you could make on your own, or you could collaborate with the person, depending on what kind of relationship it is. The same goes for intimate relationships. You know, couples fighting. A lot of the times somebody will do something bad or unethical to the other partner, and then they will say, I'm sorry. And then they get back together because punishment fades. Say four or six weeks later, the same thing happens. They say, I'm sorry, they get back together, but the frequency continues to go up and it happens faster and faster until eventually, like, something happens, right? Which is usually it ends, but it's like, wouldn't you want to end it before that happens? But I think the way to Resolve it is what I've given like advice to people who have asked me is what are you going to do differently due to this mistake or mishap? Like, what behavior will you change? And sometimes that means asking the person. You asking your boss, asking your spouse, asking your friend, what can I do differently next time? If you don't know, ask. Because I've noticed this cycle of somebody does a thing, then they apologize for doing the thing. And they're very good at apologizing. And so everyone says, oh, they didn't mean to and now they get to keep their job. There's no punishment, there's no consequences, nothing. I wouldn't say punishment. There's no behavior change, there's no feedback given. Sometimes there is feedback given and there's no demonstration of change. And so why is this person still on the team? If they have bullied somebody, you have told them not to bully somebody, told them what to do instead, they have not done that and instead just done the same thing again three times. Now the whole team avoids them and hides from them and you keep them on the team anyways. What I see is that that department that that person represents, for example, there's one where it's like a marketing department and then the two closest departments, sales and customer success, have gotten worse while this department's gotten better. Do I think that's because of the skill of the person or the fact that this person bullies these two people? And so you see how it translates into the performance of the business, which is frustrating because they all point like, I think it's the onboarding deck or the I'm like, it's the fact that Sally is a and she bullies the head of sales and the head of customer success. And so then they don't perform in their job, they don't apply discretionary effort and they're. Or because of that, the business suffers.

[Taylor]

But I think these cycles happen.

[Alex]

It's the unwillingness of somebody to say, hey, you know what? That person is a bully. They're acting like one. I don't want to have them on my team. And the next national thought is a lot of leaders like, but I should be helping them change. Do you have the skill to help them change? Do you have access to somebody who does have the skill? Is that within the scope of your job? There was a decent amount of leaders that exhibited bully like behavior to their teams. And I was on there and said, like, I do not think this person is a good fit. It has been clear that they have shown Us that they will say these words, and then they just do it again and then say these words. There's no consequence in order. And so the cycle continues to happen because of that. They. They say the same thing every time, which is, well, they didn't mean to do that. They didn't mean to come off that way. They didn't intend to be mean to the person. And the question I shoot back at them is, so who does? Does anybody intend to be a complete dick or bully to people? No, they do the thing. And so, like, the thoughts that are coming through your head or the feelings or the desire for something else to occur is irrelevant because you acted as a bully, Right? In those situations, you cannot prove the existence of these thoughts or feelings that you say that you have. And even if you do, they are irrelevant to the fact that you acted in this way. Therefore, you are perceived in that way.

[Taylor]

Will you say more about this idea of, like, perception and reality? Because I think it.

[Alex]

It's really important if you behave like a mean person. People perceive you as a mean person. No thought or feeling that you claim to have had, which they cannot prove the existence of, is going to change their mind. They just have the evidence, which is that you acted in. You said these words to me. You raised your hands, you raised your voice. You know, you told me, you threatened me, you told me you were going to fire me if I didn't do these things. And so to that person, you have acted like a bully. Whether you meant to or not doesn't really matter. And I think that a lot of the times it also means, like people say, because I didn't intend to do something, that I am not a bully. I didn't mean to bully the person, therefore, I'm not a bully. Okay, well, then what the constitutes a bully? And it's just frustrating me lately because I think I've had a lot of conversations with people who have said, no, I am not punishing. Well, you are because you do it.

[Taylor]

Do you find value in trying to understand what was going through their head and their intention?

[Alex]

I find value in trying to understand what somebody was thinking when they made a mistake. I find less value in treating it differently because I know why. For example, on a team, if somebody does something that exhibits like, punishing behavior to my team and I talk about, and I represent somebody who. I don't do that with my team. I do not intentionally punish people or threaten people to get them to change their behavior. Right? And I think we all know that if somebody else on my team were to do that. And they did it in front of a team, say in front of a group of people, 10 people, 15 people. But then later they tell me why they did it. And it was a reason that I'm like, okay, them thinking these things, it made sense because in their past, they were reinforced for acting that way. Okay, well, how long will it take me to change their behavior? How long will it take for the team not to be terrible terrified of that person? Can I afford that in my business? And so sometimes in business, it's like you sacrifice one for many. It's like determining who's on and off the bus, I think is really imperative. The world is not perfect. Like, even if I have the skill to change someone's behavior, I have to ask myself realistically, like, how much time is that going to take? What's my roi? What's my return on my effort for changing that person's behavior? Could I get a larger return if I put my efforts onto the people who don't have these adverse behaviors, or if I got somebody new because maybe it would take me six months to change this person's behavior? All the meanwhile, like, the team, they're not interacting with that person. They're not having those interactions. They're not seeing any progress made. And so they just have this perception that that's what is okay with Layla.

[Taylor]

And you might not even have a 100% probability that, like, you're going to be able to change the behavior even after.

[Alex]

But I think a better question to ask is, like, for me, it's understanding what is within my scope as somebody's boss in terms of helping change their behavior. Because I tend to reach outside my scope because I. I have the ability, and I've demonstrated that to myself in many relationships in my life that I could. But just because you can doesn't mean you should. And so I think it's asking your. Even this relationship, what is within my scope of work, you know, what is worth my return on effort? If you took that effort that you put to helping that one person change for eight months, and you have the likelihood of, like, you know, maybe 50%, whatever. But if you took that and you spread it around all of your team or onto the two people with the most potential, like, how much more return would you get on your effort?

[Taylor]

Do you think if someone acts in a way they do not intend to, they should be forgiven when they apologize?

[Alex]

I think we would have to define what forgiveness means. Like, what does it mean to forgive somebody? I think a lot of the times when we say like, oh, I forgive you, it's like, I excuse that behavior. I think something that would be more productive would be like, I understand you are human. What can we do to prevent that behavior from happening again? But my question is, how frequently does it happen? You know, if somebody up one time a year, I mean, I up more than one time a year. You know what I mean? Like in within the context of a certain situation, if they up once a year, okay. But if they up every week. So I think it has more like for me, it has to do with the frequency of the ups. Is the frequency going up or down? And so if it's going down, I would say that's progress. If it's going up, I would say that that's not progressing. It's interesting. Cause it's like, what's actually happening with somebody when they apologize? Like, I don't know. This like, is occurring to me. The day I'm like, somebody apologizes and then somebody says, I forgive you, it's like nothing. Nothing's happening. You know what I'm saying? Like, there's literally nothing. And so if no action is coming from that, people are just saying words to people. What's the point in either? You could just skip all of it and just say, I will do this differently next time, and here's what I'm going to do.

[Taylor]

When I think of people forgiving, I think of them releasing anger or like there's some kind of emotional component to that.

[Alex]

Does that feel, like, relevant? I don't know if you can physically release an emotion. Do you think so?

[Taylor]

I think you can maybe decide to stop ruminating on it as much.

[Alex]

I think that what I have found for myself, I was told for a very long time, like, you shouldn't bottle up your emotions. You should like, really feel them and like, allow them to like, move through your body and like, really, like, allow yourself to. To really feel the experience. And I actually think that is a form of rumination in many of the times. I also don't understand what is that doing for me. I'm reliving something that was a negative experience and like feeling more sad or more depressed or more frustrated. How does feeling more of a negative emotion help me move forward? But what I have noticed is that when I focus on the future, what I'm gonna do next, I am much happier. When I'm focusing on an emotion tied to a past event, I feel much more anxious and depressed.

[Taylor]

Yeah, it's so interesting. It's like the frame around forgiveness could just be like, what is your relationship with this person going to look like? Or not look like looking for, rather than like, how do I feel about them?

[Alex]

Yeah, I really try, and I think I've gotten a lot better at it and a lot faster to not indulge in an emotion. I think that's the word, indulge in an emotion. I think that that's a very different. It's a disempowering stance to be in. It's like purposely making yourself the victim of a feeling. Why would I ever purposely make myself the victim of anything? And so I think that when you say, I didn't like that, that felt bad, but I'm going to do this moving forward, or, hey, I didn't like what that person did, it felt bad, and I'm here living. So, like, it's obviously not that bad.

[Taylor]

And what if, as a viewer, I'm someone who has made a mistake and I'm trying to figure out, do I apologize? How do I approach this person?

[Alex]

Like, I would say, show me. Don't tell me. Like, if you really want to apologize, show them with your actions. You agree it was unacceptable if. If it was right. And I think that saying words to somebody seems lazy. In my opinion. Committing to an action plan and putting in the work to change your behavior demonstrates an apology. In my opinion.

[Taylor]

It's evidence of what they actually do.

[Alex]

Means they learned, a mistake occurred, they changed their behavior. That means they learned, and so they don't change their behavior.

[Taylor]

But you can't actually say, I learned my lesson until.

[Alex]

You can't say, you learned your lesson until you do something different. You did not learn the lesson because if you did, you would act differently.

[Taylor]

Is there an example of something that, like, you might just by habit, say, I'm sorry.

[Alex]

But I think that I often apologize for things that happen to people that I love that are outside of my control. Why? I don't know. I don't think it means anything. I think I just say it because other people say it. Probably if I really wanted to change that, I would probably just find a different word to say rather than, like, I'm sorry. I think there's two things that I focus on. Lowering my emotional reactivity when I'm upset. So remaining neutral and not showing my emotion because I do not think it's helpful if I'm upset to show that I'm upset because then the other person gets upset and then it escalates. That is probably like, if. If I were to look at, like, my job and where I get the most return on effort. Lowering my emotional reactivity has had, like, the highest return on effort that I've had with anything for all of my relationships, both work and personal. I would say a second piece is, yes, being less apologetic, mostly because I think when I say it, I say it because I've always said it, not because it means anything. I could probably be more articulate in those situations, but it's usually, like, in a moment where I feel guilty for something, then I say I'm sorry rather than avoiding the apology, because I don't see how that's a positive for the person I'm even delivering it to. Because the moment. If anyone actually catches me and says, like, you don't need to apologize, then I'm like, fuck. Like, why did I do that? You know? Like, I literally think I said it to Trevor today, and he was like, you don't need to say you're sorry.

[Taylor]

Do you think that a verbal apology can be effective if it is the beginning of the process of changed behavior, or would you rather someone just do the thing?

[Alex]

I have realized that there's a pattern a lot of people have, which is if somebody says, I'm sorry, then it is like, okay, there are no consequences and there is no feedback. Oh, they're sorry. We shouldn't do anything. You don't need to apologize. Demonstrate that you've learned. I think that it would be more effective if somebody stated what they learned and what they're committed to doing next. And then you just focus on the future. Even if, like, when I mess up, I think I've gotten much better at not dwelling in my own mistakes. All that energy that I. If I spend it dwelling on the mistake I've made, I steal it from the energy I could have taken to move myself forward. I think it's the same for other people. If Alex makes a mistake, if a direct report of mine makes a mistake and I continue to have them focus on the mistake, I would say that that's probably more likely they'll make the mistake again. Not more likely that they're going to improve and commit to and be successful in the next steps that they take to improve.