← Mondays with Matt
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- [00:02]
Matt Reynolds
You're listening to the Build you'd business podcast, powered by Turnkey Coach, where we help business owners find freedom over fear. I'm Matt Reynolds and I'm his brother, Chris Reynolds.
- [00:12]
Chris Reynolds
Join us as we help build your business and move from fear to freedom together. You're listening to the Build you'd business podcast. I'm your co host, Matt Reynolds, here with my Chris Reynolds. We missed you last week because crap hit the fan.
- [00:38]
Matt Reynolds
Yes, it did. That's what happens, which is what we're.
- [00:41]
Chris Reynolds
Going to talk about. So we sent emails out to producers and Radcast and everybody helps with the podcast and said, hey, this is probably not going to happen this week. We've tried a whole bunch and we were going to talk about the game plan, which we'll talk about next week because we led into that, well, last week or week before last, but I think this is a really good topic for business owners is when crap hits the fan. And we'll try to use the word crap as much as we can because it's clean. This is a family show.
- [01:11]
Matt Reynolds
Family show. Kids can listen and learn how to start their business.
- [01:15]
Chris Reynolds
That's right. And if we say something we're not supposed to, we'll just leave it out. So the reality, as I said last week, really short podcast, is that you and I are both business owners. When you're really legitimately both business owners, sometimes crap hits the fan, sometimes you have emergencies, sometimes you stay up all night long working on a tech issue or whatnot. And I thought while it's fresh in our mind, let's talk about how we've handled some of those scenarios over the past 20 years when crap hits the fan, when everything goes crazy and you have to really pull weeds on everything else, which included this podcast last week. So as much as you can give detail because from what I understand, it wasn't really you guys fault. What was last week like for you?
- [02:03]
Matt Reynolds
I think what I'll do is I'll describe this type of scenario because it's not super uncommon for our business. We are typically brought in to help companies and I'm in particular brought in to lead through very intense change inside of engineering organizations. And so this is typically in any kind of company that has an engineering group and they're, you know, they have a bunch of stuff that's going on and they're trying to figure out how to get out of it and, or change or, you know, maybe they're, maybe it's just scaling. They're trying to scale and the move from where they are right now to their scaling point is just it's a big lift and they need a lot of help to do it. And so that's, that's typically what I'm involved in. And because of the nature of that, things that look like emergencies or look potentially catastrophic during some of those changes is almost commonplace. Like it's not that rare for me. So last week was a really good example. I think when I talk about particulars, I'm going to talk about particulars of other examples just for the anonymous nature of what I do. The reality is, here's what happens. You end up with a situation that is unexpected, right? It's not a thing.
- [03:16]
Chris Reynolds
What time did that happen last week?
- [03:19]
Matt Reynolds
So I was made aware of this particular event at probably around 4:00pm, maybe 3:34pm Yep. And so, so when this happens, you know, you, you get, you, you find out there's a thing, we gotta do something about it. And it's always, there's sort of two constraints that are really important. One of them is you or your client, your customer or your customers all see this as a pretty big deal, right? So it feels like it could be a really critical turning point in the company's history, you know, to bad or good, really in, in either situation, it's probably rarer for me to be involved in one where if you push crazy hard like through a, you know, all nighter, 24 hour, 48 hour day, whatever, that there's just something amazing on the other side of it that does happen. Like there, it's, there are times certainly when you got investors that are like, if you can do this, we're going to hand you an enormous pile of money. It's like, okay, well we got to jump on it and do it. And so those circumstances show up. But more frequently it's a circumstance where something is pretty intense and the probability of something really negative happening is pretty high. And the most important part about it is it's super time constrained. So the way that I always think about it is it's like the clock is ticking. If you ever watch the show 24, it's like that basically it's like, tick, tick, tick, tick, tick, tick, tick. And I hear this in my head.
- [04:48]
Chris Reynolds
It'S hyper urgent and hyper important.
- [04:51]
Matt Reynolds
And that's exactly what it feels like. Like it's this very sort of intense, intense moment. And so, you know, it almost always hits in a time frame where you, you become aware that like, oh, this, this is, this is going to happen. This is one of those days. And it's always, you know, it's always between 4 and 6pm that you find out. So you get to. Whatever day you had is, is over. We're going to talk a little bit about what that looks like. And I think, especially as I thought about this podcast and what I could help other people do and learn in it is I've done this so much that I feel like there are a lot of lessons, a lot of takeaways that I think could be really helpful for other founders. And, and while my example is in the tech space, I actually think this works in basically in anything.
- [05:38]
Chris Reynolds
Sure.
- [05:38]
Matt Reynolds
Where you have the same kind of intensity. So.
- [05:41]
Chris Reynolds
Well, first off, you got this emergency at 4 or 5, 6pm and then you were up all night long and I assume a lot of your staff trying to fix a tech problem that was not something that you created, but something that you had to be brought in to clean up. Right.
- [05:59]
Matt Reynolds
And actually these circumstances are interesting. Sometimes this happens and nobody changed anything. So the last two of these events that I've had in the last three to six months or whatever have both been circumstances where nobody changed anything. And it actually wasn't the fault of anyone that, that we were in direct contact with. Sure. It was an example of a situation like I think the first one was a third party that is completely unrelated, had sort of a breakdown situation. And so we had to scramble very quickly to get around that problem. And then this one was actually just a certain level of scale got hit. And as that scale got hit, it had never been hit. And you know, the system hadn't really been pressure tested as, as highly as it should have been. And so there was a little bit of, a little bit of work to do there. But yeah, no one's a direct fault in this case. It was just the emergency is on us and now we got to do something about it.
- [06:55]
Chris Reynolds
Yeah, I mean, we hire you guys to do a lot of dev work for us. And Barbel Logic online coaching Turnkey Coach utilizes the Turnkey Coach software. And we've had one or two times where it just stops working like it breaks. And clients can't upload videos for strength coaching, coaches can't give feedback. And we've had a couple of these over the past couple years as well, where the day to day process of the business stops until the tech is fixed. And so you are, as you've said in previous podcasts, you are a problem solver. You have to go in and solve the problem and figure out how to fix the tech and get it back up and running.
- [07:41]
Matt Reynolds
Yep, yep, that's exactly it. And I mean, I can't tell you why I don't.
- [07:45]
Chris Reynolds
I.
- [07:45]
Matt Reynolds
There's no. I can't pin it to a particular thing, but I can, I can say with pretty close to 100% certainty that I was born to solve these kinds of problems and lead through this kind of change. I have a personality that is setup for handling this. I'm calm when things are crazy. And that's a really critical piece. We'll talk about that here in a second. But I think there's a lot about probably that I found my way into this space also, you know, and into SaaS and all the things that I've done over the history of my business career. But I think part of it is just that there is a. There's a lot of it in this space. It's almost always around tech. Like most businesses have so much around tech and tech is so complicated. So it's just like a hundred million moving parts. Can you just imagine, like it's almost more of a miracle that we get any of it working at all. Right. There's electrons flowing around in the, in, in wires and we get that to turn into the Internet and apps on our phones and stuff. So super complex ecosystem. And I think it's part of, you know, the way the, the way these things work.
- [08:53]
Chris Reynolds
Yep, makes perfect sense. I've had a few of these in my business that is not tech specific. So when I got bought out of Strong Jim, my first company, it was kind of an overnight thing. I remember meeting with my two other business partners, so three. And we sat down in the attorney's conference room. The attorney represented everybody. So he said, I'm going to leave because conflict of interest and I want you guys to try to work it out. And pretty quickly we realized two of the three of us were going to get bought out of the company. And this was in 15. And so, okay, what are we going to do? So that was one. I had one where when we started Barbell Logic, we were associated with another name in fitness and that we licensed out that name and. And they pulled our license with no lead time. It was just like, you don't have the license to use this anymore. That was a tech piece. Luckily, we were in a position for several months that we kind of refer to in the company as the Cold War. So we kind of prepared for if that happened. We had a mirrored site with an updated logo, brand, all that sort of stuff that we could just kind of Flip the switch. I remember waking up the next morning, working through most of the night and then waking up the next morning and we had flipped the switch so fast that the Internet world and Reddit and everything thought that we had left that company and kind of had a mutiny and did our own thing. That's not at all what happened. I also have to be careful because there's a lawsuit there that I can't speak about the details of the lawsuit, but about a month after we lost the license, we had a lawsuit that their attorneys came back and said, here are 473 things on the Internet that we want taken down where it associates you and your company with this other company. And so my attorney called me and he said, hey, you know, this is all your, your content, but if you can pull it, if you can get it off the Internet in the next like 24 hours, there's. They don't have a lawsuit. Yep, there's nothing left.
- [11:15]
Matt Reynolds
That's an example. That's a great example.
- [11:17]
Chris Reynolds
So my coo Andrew, he created a document that he called Searcher, which I know nothing about, but I'd actually typed. This is like a, like a mythological creature. The idea there was, I can remember I was in Mexico and it was a Friday afternoon again at 4 or 5pm and I had an all hands call on a Friday night. And I said, we're working all through the night and in the morning when we wake up, all of these things are going to be pulled off the Internet. It was 473 things, a lot of things. And so we did it. And when we woke up the next morning, it was gone. Everything they'd asked for was gone. And so without going into any more detail, those are the things that occur sometimes as a business owner that you're just like, it doesn't matter what time of the day or night it is. It doesn't matter whether you're on vacation or not. Everybody's all hands. We're all working together and we're solving this problem to get it fixed as quickly as possible so that we can get back to homeostasis.
- [12:29]
Matt Reynolds
That's right. That's exactly right. And there's so many. It's funny, you know, like, I think most founders have been through this to, to some degree at some point in time, but almost everybody reflects back positively on these things, which is kind of crazy. Like, you think about what you have to go through and the intensity of it, and it's not like you would wish that you would have that intensity on a regular basis or anything like that. But it's just that there are some really incredible things that come out of it. And I think one of those things is it is usually a time of hyper learning.
- [13:01]
Chris Reynolds
Yep.
- [13:01]
Matt Reynolds
There is just a period of time when the whole rest of the world is completely faded away. I mean, you've had to. And I'm going to go through some steps to tell you how to deal with this, that I actually think, like part of this is by design. You have to go in there, you have to actually stop all the other stuff. This is the only thing you can be focused on during that time. But I think while that's happening, I think you just get this incredible deep focus and you can learn faster than during other times.
- [13:28]
Chris Reynolds
The concept of. Probably everybody's heard of this. The college professor who has the jar and he puts the big rocks in the jar and he's like, is the jar full? And the college kids say yes. And then he puts in pebbles. He says, is it full now? And they say yes. And he puts in sand. Is it full now? Yes. And he pours water in it. Is it full now? And this is not the concept of the video. But there are, I would make an argument there are times you have to break the jar and go to the singular big rock.
- [14:03]
Matt Reynolds
Yep, that's right.
- [14:04]
Chris Reynolds
All the other rocks, all the other pebbles, the sand, the water, all this stuff has to go away. And the singular focus of the entire business is the big rock.
- [14:13]
Matt Reynolds
That's right.
- [14:14]
Chris Reynolds
Because that's the emergency. Right?
- [14:17]
Matt Reynolds
That's what it is. Right. I, I think you, how effectively you do this or don't do this is essentially these are clutch moments in the history of the business. And so you have to be the kind of person who can show up to, to that clutch moment and not fold and not panic and not do all the things that a lot of people do. A lot of things that feel super intense and ca. I think cause people to make mistakes during this time are really what you're looking to avoid. So I also say, like, I think you build a lot of credit, long term credit from a leadership perspective from your staff during this time because they're seeing you as a wartime CEO for all practical purposes. And I mean that, that, that feels almost like, you know, there's hero status and it's weird, but it, it does, it does work that way. Again, you don't want it for that reason. You. That's not why we're doing this kind of thing. But it does yield some benefits that are, are pretty impressive. And very helpful.
- [15:17]
Chris Reynolds
Yeah. These are not the only times we've had to deal with this. Right. Like every founder, almost every founder deals with a time when they are running out of money, capital.
- [15:29]
Matt Reynolds
Yep.
- [15:30]
Chris Reynolds
You don't know how you're going to make payroll in seven days. And that's the only thing you have to do, like as a CEO, as a founder, like the checks can't bounce.
- [15:41]
Matt Reynolds
That's right.
- [15:41]
Chris Reynolds
That's the deal.
- [15:42]
Matt Reynolds
Can't run out of cash.
- [15:43]
Chris Reynolds
Yep. You can't run out of cash. And so those things are incredibly important. And then piggybacking off of what you just said. Is that what I have found? So while I wrote an entire book called Undoing Urgency, there's a section in that book, I think it's like page 67. I think, as I was peeking at it this morning, is that there are times when hyper urgency is healthy.
- [16:07]
Matt Reynolds
Yep.
- [16:08]
Chris Reynolds
That's true. And that my experience is that when those times come, if they don't come every two or three months, but they come once in a great while, once a year, once every two, three years, whatever those hyper urgent, hyper important times are. When we look back now with these kind of rose colored glasses, nostalgia, they were the most galvanizing times of the entire company. And this story is really all laid out. I'm sure we've mentioned this book so far on the podcast. But the hard thing about Hard Things with Ben Horowitz, it's my favorite business book because the vast majority of business books are written by guys who are super successful. Ben Horowitz, super successful, is one of the founders of a 16Z with Andreessen Horowitz. So one of the big venture capital now private equity firms, but there were several times that they were within 24 hours of death. And when you get to that point, you find out who's really on the team. And what tends to happen is everybody's on the team. Or 98 or 95 or 90% of the people are on the team. And the ones that aren't leave. And now you've got your galvanized team that everybody's focused on a singular task. And so when we attacked the 473 things that had to be pulled off the Internet for the lawsuit, by the time everybody woke up the next morning, it was gone.
- [17:47]
Matt Reynolds
Right.
- [17:47]
Chris Reynolds
But no individual pulled all 473. We divvied it up. We had a very clear system and SOP for how we were going to do that report on it. And in the end, when we looked back, we Were like, this is an incredible galvanizing experience. So you've got when hyper urgency is actually healthy. And I think that should happen occasionally for a business. You have the concept that you mentioned of the wartime CEO. And I would argue that you hear all the time about wartime CEOs and peacetime CEOs, and I think that concept is relatively crap because I think no one ever remembers the peacetime CEO. Nobody remembers the peacetime generals when we go to war. You remember Patton, and you remember these generals that were the best of the best in the most dire circumstances all the way back to Washington, let's say. And so nobody remembers what it was like to be a great general or a great leader during good times. It's what does it look like to be a great leader during the bad times? During the. And bad is probably an understatement during the 24 hours of do or die time. How can you do that? And so you started to kind of tease into this concept of staying calm and solving problems. So when that situation arises, how do you rise to the occasion and get the job done?
- [19:21]
Matt Reynolds
Yeah. All right. So there are a couple of things that I feel like can really help when it comes to navigating a crisis. And I think that the very first one is the most important of all, and that is you need to stay completely calm. And the reason for this is that it is not possible to think clearly and to make good decisions in a state of heightened emotion. You can't do it.
- [19:48]
Chris Reynolds
Panic mode.
- [19:49]
Matt Reynolds
Panic mode. You can't do it. And so part. We've talked a lot about this on the podcast, and I think this is actually this in many ways gets down to maybe one of my big core ethos things. It's the reason that we train our emotions or train our responses to our emotions. Right. Because we can't do anything about our emotions, but we can do something about the way we respond to our emotions. And the more we feed the hysteria, the worse it gets. So it is far better to learn how to have a thing like that. You're going to have a moment of panic. I've done this so many times. And I can still tell you that at that 4:30pm time when I know that I'm supposed to have dinner with my family at a particular time, I maybe had an event I was supposed to go to with my kids. I have a moment of panic, too.
- [20:37]
Chris Reynolds
Sure.
- [20:37]
Matt Reynolds
And that moment lasts for about three seconds. That's how long it lasts. I have it. I acknowledge that I'm having it. And I move the hell on. That's what I do. Because I have to. Because we're in the middle of a war and now it's time to go to war, right?
- [20:51]
Chris Reynolds
Yep.
- [20:52]
Matt Reynolds
So staying calm is really, really, really critical. And I actually think this is a useful personality trait for literally everyone. I think everyone can work on it in various ways. I will admit that. I'm sure there are people whose personalities are naturally tuned to it, some that are not. And so, you know, some probably something to be aw yourself if you're a CEO and this is a real struggle. I think this is an area where you want to make sure that your number two in command is as calm as can possibly be, because they need to be in the middle of the storm. Immediately after you sort of got yourself calm, it's let the right people know that you are in the middle of a crisis. So, like, this is like a pretty basic thing, but, like, you need to tell your spouse, you might need to tell your kids, you need to tell, you know, whoever on the team needs to know. Ideally, one of the people that's really helpful if you have one, is anyone at all in your organization. This doesn't need to be like an executive assistant. I'm not, you know, I'm not even advocating for executive assistance, but I would say someone who can go in and clear your calendar for the next 24 hours. That is absolutely a must. Like, one of the things that will absolutely crush you is the idea that you've got to do a 24 hour overnighter. You got to go through all this stuff. And then also I've got all these other critical things that I've got to deal with.
- [22:04]
Chris Reynolds
This is like, last week we had to do a podcast and you were like, dude, I've been up all night long. I don't know how long it's going to take to free this up. And so we started to look at, okay, well then how do we manage the podcast while Chris is in emergency, urgent and important mode? And that's why the podcast didn't come out on Friday, because we're not primarily content producers and podcast makers. We're business owners. And so you had a critical thing you had to deal with that then didn't just elevate it above everything else, but actually pulls the weeds of everything else. Like, okay, there's no more baseball games for the kids. There's not dinner with the family. There's not sleep at night, there's no podcast in the morning. It is one big rock. That's it. That's what I'm focusing on.
- [23:00]
Matt Reynolds
I always feel like if you pull sleep at night, you better be pulling everything else. Yeah, right. That's a pretty critical piece of the puzzle. But you get to this point where you're ready. Okay, now what do you do next? Well, the next thing that you do is you gather a bunch of facts, okay? So you've got to get all the facts about the situation written down somewhere. Now, people do this a bunch of different ways. If you are in a physical office with a group of people, a great way to do this is with a whiteboard. One of the things that I tend to recommend to and sort of goes hand in hand is to start what we call a war room. And a war room in a physical office is an office. Like pick an office, pick a conference room. Everybody's going to go in that space and you get everybody there in a virtual office, which I actually like many times better than a physical office in this situation and have done this many, many, many, many, many times. This way we use Slack, but if you use something similar, you can do the same thing. You create a new channel. And that channel is literally called War room or such and such. War Room or whatever. And all the people are in there and it is the only thing they're paying attention to. It is the only place we're going to get alerts and we don't change channels during that time. We're not looking at emails, we're not doing anything else. We are focused completely on this one space. So gather all the facts. One of the things that I do just as an internal trick is I'm a programmer. And so one of the things that I will do is I will actually make a Python project because it's a tool that I can use to think. And it's a superhuman tool. It gives me the ability to do things like go get a bunch of data with a tool that I can write crazy fast, right? I've been doing this for 25 years, so I am insanely fast at Python. And I can make these little markdown scripts which are kind of like, I don't know, they're like really fast HTML or something. It's like this really fast way to document things in a hierarchical way. Every time a crazy war thing happens, I start doing that, I document, I start getting all the details down in a place where I can see them, I can organize them, I can think about them in different ways. And you'll always want to do the same thing again. If you're in a Physical. One of the easiest ways to think about this, I'm in a. Is if you're in a physical office. This is in a conference room with a big old whiteboard and you got people there and you're writing stuff down on the whiteboard. After that, the. The key next step is to gather the right people. So ideally, maybe right off the bat, you know about a couple of them, but you need to maybe reevaluate. Like who are the experts that I need that are to help me solve this problem? By its very nature, an emergency event of this type is not a one human event.
- [25:30]
Chris Reynolds
Right.
- [25:31]
Matt Reynolds
You need a team to execute because it won't be true that you will be the expert in every possible way. In fact, in many times, you aren't the expert at all. You are merely the leader. You're the person who is beating the drum, who is keeping calm, who's doing all the things that needs to happen in order to lead the team through the crisis. But one key role, and I think this is really important, I learned this many, many years ago. One key role is somebody to take care of communication. And so this is, I call this comms. But essentially your communications person needs to never or almost never need to ask the team anything. They are in that war room to observe and take notes. There's going to be a lot of chaos and a lot of weird things that are being said inside of that room that are not ready for public consumption. But you have outside stakeholders that you're trying to talk to. Matt, in your case, you're talking to a lawyer, right? You got a, you got an attorney that you need to talk to or whatever. So like, in that case, what you really need is someone who can observe. They're very good at figuring out how do I clean this communication for an outside audience. And that allows you to stay focused because it is its own task to do the thing to help lead through the crisis and to communicate about that thing. You don't want to have cycles in your brain trying to figure out how you're going to word it just right. That's one person's job and you give them that role.
- [26:55]
Chris Reynolds
And so the other thing I want to touch on, because it's not innate for you or for I, is that when these times come and they will, quitting is not an option.
- [27:08]
Matt Reynolds
Right? Right.
- [27:09]
Chris Reynolds
Procrastination is not an option. So never in ownership in my business did I ever think, this is it, we're done. Yeah, you just immediately go into wartime CEO mode. And wartime CEO mode doesn't look like I'm screaming orders at people. It's the opposite. I'm hyper calm, hyper focused. Here's the task at hand. Here's the plan to accomplish the task. Go.
- [27:39]
Matt Reynolds
Yep.
- [27:40]
Chris Reynolds
And then you go back to the war room and then people come back and they say, this is done. This is done. You go, perfect. Now you go from this to this thing and they start knocking out that stuff. And so, yeah, figuring out who your wartime people are. And I can remember even coming back to the lawsuit situation. We had, I don't know, 12 people on the call and one person who doesn't work for us anymore, and I won't give any more details I can remember said, can't this. It's Friday night. Can't this just wait till Monday?
- [28:12]
Matt Reynolds
Right.
- [28:13]
Chris Reynolds
No. You've worked for me for years. I'm on vacation in Mexico. It's 6pm My time. Pacific coast is 3. How often do I do an all hands call emergency and say this is what we're doing tonight? Almost never. And by the way, on the other side, if you're a CEO or a founder who considers everything an emergency, that's a problem as well. You have to be able to identify like what is the actual do or die moments in the business. And then when it's there, you collect your war room personalities and you give them all a job to do and then you trust them to do the job and they come back to Slack. Or again, we own online businesses. If you were in an actual conference room, it'd be different. And they say done. You go, cool, now this. And they do that thing. And so when I look back at the staff that we had, every single person on that staff, this is years ago. This is 19, right? So six years ago are still part of the staff with the exception of one. And the one that isn't is the one that said, can't it wait till Monday?
- [29:31]
Matt Reynolds
Right? No, that's. And I said, yep.
- [29:35]
Chris Reynolds
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- [30:07]
Matt Reynolds
Because it never enters my mind. It has never entered my mind ever. Maybe until you said it just now that quitting is an option, that the end is the option. That's not the Option? Are you kidding me? You know how many hours there are between now and tomorrow morning? A lot.
- [30:23]
Chris Reynolds
We've talked a lot about waking up early and working when people are sleeping on the once every three years. You have to stay up all night long. How much time do you have? Especially if you have 8, 10, 12 people in the war room. Can you get accomplished so that by the time the rest of the world wakes up, everything has changed?
- [30:45]
Matt Reynolds
That's right.
- [30:46]
Chris Reynolds
That's the key.
- [30:47]
Matt Reynolds
A good example, if you are an adult who has watched the movie Pulp Fiction, there's a character on that movie who I think basically perfectly personifies what you're trying to go for. And that would be Harvey Keitel's character, Winston the Wolf. That's who you're looking to be. It's just this very good example of completely calm and focused in the middle of complete disaster.
- [31:16]
Chris Reynolds
Right.
- [31:17]
Matt Reynolds
And how do we cut out all the nonsense and get straight to the thing that's going to solve the problem at hand?
- [31:24]
Chris Reynolds
That's really the key in the movie. You've got Vince and they accidentally shoot a guy in the face in the backseat. They have a gun go off, and now they get a mess in the backseat and they need somebody to come in and clean up the mess.
- [31:39]
Matt Reynolds
Yep.
- [31:39]
Chris Reynolds
And that's the wolf.
- [31:41]
Matt Reynolds
There is no good way to quote any portion of what I just said with hand. Keeping it still family friendly. So we'll leave that. But there are certainly other examples. Here's another good one for you in the movie. I think it was in Apollo 13, and I use this one as an example fairly frequently for our teams. And that is you've got a spaceship. Ship that's in. You know, it's in space, can't get back. And they're having issues turning the. The ship on at all. Basically. Like, stop working the rocket.
- [32:12]
Chris Reynolds
Yeah.
- [32:12]
Matt Reynolds
And there's a scene at NASA where they get everybody into a room and they say, this is what we have, and you have to figure it out. Like, you have to figure out how to get them home.
- [32:23]
Chris Reynolds
Oh, yeah, yeah. And they're like, we have duct tape and a sock and like, whatever.
- [32:28]
Matt Reynolds
Exactly. Like a toothbrush. And it's MacGyver. You know? And essentially, in many ways, the constraints will help you solve the problem, because you don't have infinity options. You have a finite number of options. And so your brain has only so far that it can go down any of the paths. Any of the possible paths. Right, sure. So the constraints are actually helping you in these situations, which I think are Actually really, really helpful if you're a fan of movies. Those, those are two good examples that you can go take a look at and see how it fits well.
- [33:00]
Chris Reynolds
And the point here, again that I think is important is that the goal is to get the fastest from point A to point B and get the problem cleared up.
- [33:09]
Matt Reynolds
You got to get out of that chaos moment, get through the crisis. And getting through the crisis is going to mean there are going to be things that you don't do perfectly. There's going to be a bunch of, we're going to go clean some stuff up afterwards, whatever, but we got to get out of the emergency as soon as physically possible because we can't think clearly when we're in the middle of chaos. That's right. All right, so one of the things that, you know, we've sort of hinted around, I think this is obvious, but I'm going to say it anyway, and that is that all of the normal rules of society are off during this, during this time frame, completely off. So when we talk about things like sleep, you know, everybody tells you it's critical that you get X amount of sleep. And sleep is extremely important. I'm very pro sleep. I want to be clear about this. I'm very pro sleep. You know, when should you eat, when should you drink coffee?
- [33:58]
Chris Reynolds
None of it matters.
- [33:59]
Matt Reynolds
Stimulants, all that stuff, none of it matters. All of it is out the, out the window. The only thing that matters during this timeframe is that you do whatever you have to do to make sure that you get through the crisis and you get through safely. So obviously be careful, don't do stupid things, but in general, make sure that you are as focused as you can possibly be and that you basically don't pay attention to all of the other, like all the rules are off. Like the rules just go away. And now you've got other things that are going on. There's a couple other reasons that I say that, because I've had people before thinking about all of these other rules that matter. They're like, well, you know, we have certain budget constraints and we have certain other kinds of time constraints and people constraints and all these things. And I, I, I try to help them understand. Even those are pretty much off during this time frame.
- [34:48]
Chris Reynolds
It depends on the thing. So the thing you were working with this past week where it was like you were solve a problem actually for a client, it's a little bit different. But there are times for us and you as well in your business past where it's 24 hours. Do or die.
- [35:04]
Matt Reynolds
Yeah.
- [35:04]
Chris Reynolds
Like, we don't solve the crisis. The budget doesn't matter. The payroll doesn't matter. None of it, because we're dead.
- [35:11]
Matt Reynolds
Yeah.
- [35:11]
Chris Reynolds
People.
- [35:12]
Matt Reynolds
People miss this. I think founders inherently get it, but the reason we're bringing this up is because employees tend to not get it.
- [35:20]
Chris Reynolds
That's right.
- [35:21]
Matt Reynolds
You have to make it explicit for them. You know, you think about this every day you go to bed, and if you're having a hard time sleeping, it's because, you know, every night that, like, very thin line between you and the end of the company. Right.
- [35:37]
Chris Reynolds
And so, like, you're the only one that knows.
- [35:38]
Matt Reynolds
Right.
- [35:39]
Chris Reynolds
I think this is actually really important, too. And it comes back to. You've mentioned this several times about staying calm as a leader, rallying the troops, those sorts of things. Deep down inside, maybe no one else in your company knows how truly pivotal this moment is. Yeah, maybe you've got a few executives that do, but for the most part, nobody does. You do.
- [35:59]
Matt Reynolds
You do.
- [36:00]
Chris Reynolds
So if anyone had an excuse to freak the F out, it's you. But that's the one time you can't.
- [36:08]
Matt Reynolds
You cannot do it.
- [36:09]
Chris Reynolds
I don't know if you've seen this yet, but there's a really good documentary on. I think it's Netflix. The True Story of Blackhawk Down.
- [36:15]
Matt Reynolds
Oh, I've been wanting to watch this. It's on my list. Yeah.
- [36:19]
Chris Reynolds
And one. You know, some leadership was, like, it was awful. But the one thing I could do is maintain my composure, stay calm, rally the troops, and tell them what they had to do. Because when someone is the leader and they're freaking out, people don't follow people who are freaking out.
- [36:40]
Matt Reynolds
That's right.
- [36:40]
Chris Reynolds
They follow people who are like, even though the sky is falling, I am calm. I am collected. I know what to do. Everybody, do your job.
- [36:51]
Matt Reynolds
That's right.
- [36:52]
Chris Reynolds
That's the point. And you have to understand that there's this variance from your executive team down to your just normal employees of how much each. No. And the reality is you talk about social norms or, like, business norms. How much they know doesn't matter anymore.
- [37:11]
Matt Reynolds
Nope.
- [37:11]
Chris Reynolds
Your job is to, like. If I have to explain all the details of how important this job is, that's a waste of time. You have to have built up enough social credibility and trust with your team so that when you say, hey, guys, I need you to trust me here. Next 24 hours, do or die. I need everybody to do their job. I'll explain afterwards. I'm not going to ask you to do something I'm not going to do. If I ask you to stay up all night long, I'm going to stay up all night long. If I ask you to not eat, I'm not going to eat. We're in this together in urgency and importance mode to save the business, to save the company. It's massive. And again, this should not be happening very often. But if you've done what you should have done as a leader for the previous five years, 10 years, whatever, then you should be relatively surprised at how quickly the troops will rally and say, okay, like, I tr. He's never led me astray up to this point. I'm going to do what he says or she says or whatever.
- [38:14]
Matt Reynolds
You made two incredibly important points, and I do think they're just. Again, I'm just going to call them out. You said it. I'm going to say it again so everybody gets it. Number one, you cannot ask your team to do something you are not doing. You are going to lead from the front on this one.
- [38:31]
Chris Reynolds
Right?
- [38:31]
Matt Reynolds
Okay. And that means you're going to sleep less than everybody else. You're going to freak out. Zero.
- [38:37]
Chris Reynolds
You're not riding in the chariot. You're pulling the chariot.
- [38:40]
Matt Reynolds
There's no phone call. It's. We have the weekend, and we got to work all the way through the weekend. Both nights through the weekend, I'm headed to Miami to play golf. Like, if that happens.
- [38:50]
Chris Reynolds
Negative.
- [38:51]
Matt Reynolds
That's it.
- [38:51]
Chris Reynolds
You just lost your whole team.
- [38:52]
Matt Reynolds
You lost your whole team, and. Yeah, and your company's gone. Like, you can't do that. That is not a thing we do. The other hard thing to describe here is there's an emotional state that you're going to be in, and there's what you show everybody else.
- [39:06]
Chris Reynolds
That's right.
- [39:06]
Matt Reynolds
Now, I know that it's in the popular dialogue or whatever to feel your feelings and, you know, make sure you get all that stuff out in front of everybody. But that's. That's no good. That's no good, correct? Absolutely terrible advice, especially in this. In this scenario. I think it's generally terrible advice, but I also think that it is especially bad advice in this context. And the reason why is because you can't control those feelings, but you can control the behaviors. And the behaviors include things like your responses when you haven't had a lot of sleep and somebody says something that you think is kind of dumb or they start getting off track on something. Like, you have to stay calm. It's going to be a little curt sometimes.
- [39:49]
Chris Reynolds
Sure.
- [39:50]
Matt Reynolds
But it's. But that's just because we're. We're trying to drive to this. To this end state. And so, yeah, this is where.
- [39:55]
Chris Reynolds
And I think, like you were saying, you don't think it's ever a good idea. But I think this is why good founders and business owners allow their actions to drive their emotions, not the other way around. You don't let your emotions drive your actions. And by the way, this doesn't just apply to business, because in these situations, there's a tremendous amount of overlap with family. There have been a handful of times, oof, here we go.
- [40:22]
Matt Reynolds
No, no, he's tearing up where I.
- [40:25]
Chris Reynolds
Have to go to my wife or my kids and go, okay, so I'm doing a terrible job of what I'm saying not to do. Let me do this again. You compose yourself. You tell your wife and your kids, hey, there's a big problem at the business, but Daddy's going to fix it. But here's what I need from you. And if you've done the same thing with your family that you have with your employees, if you've invested decades in building trust and leadership and that your family trusts you to get out of this situation, they don't have to understand the situation. They don't even need to know what it is. Especially if you have littles. But just say, hey, I know we said we were going to get Hibachi tonight. We're not getting Hibachi tonight. And this is why. But when daddy fixes the problem, we will. Right? And so it's incredibly important that you take everything around. We've talked, we've done episodes on being distraction free. But, like, you have to be able to sit down with your spouse and your kids and go. And that also might be. I'm getting in the car and I'm driving to the library and I'm going into a private room in the library or a we workspace where there is no distraction to do the thing. And again, if you live in this all the time, and we all know people who, like their whole life is like, end of the world drama, sky is falling. This doesn't work. This is the boy who cries Wolf.
- [41:46]
Matt Reynolds
It is.
- [41:47]
Chris Reynolds
And so it has to be very rare and far between. And when you handle it again, there are times when I've been through this where I go into the room or the bathroom and. And I close the door and I scream and cry and whatever, but nobody hears me. And I compose myself and I come out and go, okay, here's what we're going to do.
- [42:06]
Matt Reynolds
Yeah, do what you got to do. That's the point. Right?
- [42:08]
Chris Reynolds
That's the point.
- [42:09]
Matt Reynolds
There is absolutely real value in the team seeing you as a leader and taking their own emotional cues from you. This is actually not so hard to understand. I just did a flight to get down here on vacation. I'm in Florida and the weather was terrible to get out of Boston. It was a mess. And flights are a really good example of this. You know, when, when you start hitting turbulence in a flight, experienced passengers, first of all pretty much don't even look up from their computer. I don't look up. We don't even notice that it's going on.
- [42:42]
Chris Reynolds
Yeah, right.
- [42:43]
Matt Reynolds
But if I were to look up and look at the, any, any member of staff, basically, like, if, certainly if the captain's like freaking out or something.
- [42:53]
Chris Reynolds
Right.
- [42:54]
Matt Reynolds
But if they're freaking out, I'm starting to freak out. Right. Like, that would be the only circumstance.
- [42:58]
Chris Reynolds
As much as we've flown, we've seen that happen a handful of times. Handful of times where they're like, they scurry to the jump seat and they buckle in real fast and everything's done. And you're like, okay, this is like, this is real.
- [43:10]
Matt Reynolds
Yeah. So that should help you understand, like it's a very normal, natural thing to do to look to the leader and say, they know more than I know in this context. So I'm going to look at them and see what's going on. That's what's happening. And you're the leader, so make sure that you are cognizant of that reality. Okay? Yep. Beyond that, I think one thing that's really, really important is to understand that one of your jobs in this process is to course correct. And you're going to need to do this for a couple of particular reasons. In the middle of a crisis, you know, the goal is to get to the end state to fix it, get out of the crisis, and then we can concentrate on those other things for whatever reason. There's. You'll have some employees that are actually just good at this and they'll be fine. They'll be focused and be able to get thing done. You've got some people that, who can't quite detach from some of the principled things that they've delivered on in the past. And I think specifically in software, we see this a lot around like certain best practices. We need to, oh, we can't do this thing because we, we got to do these best practices. But remember, the rules are Out. We don't. Rules don't matter anymore. We're done with those. Right.
- [44:13]
Chris Reynolds
During crisis mode.
- [44:14]
Matt Reynolds
During crisis mode, rules are done. You'll have to sometimes course correct and help them understand. Listen, those are all good things. Those are all really good things. We want to make sure we do those things. Like, we definitely want to not leave any broken windows. That's an example. It's a phrase we use in software. Make sure you fix up all the things, leave it nicer than you found it. And sometimes people will get lost in that. And you could see like in a 24 hour, the clock is ticking. Somebody burning four hours on something dumb is like horrible. Like it could be the difference Right. Between life and death. And so it's critical that as the leader, you're really well tuned in to what's going on on the ground and doing these little nudges and course corrections for each of the people to help them. And then sometimes that's literally just giving them permission. Sometimes like, listen, you know that rule we always have that I say that you should always do? Yeah. Right now that's suspended. And I need you to do this other thing instead. Right.
- [45:08]
Chris Reynolds
And then you start to come out of this. So you've done what you're supposed to do. And often this is a 24 hour, 48 hour, three days, whatever experience. It's, you know, hyper urgent, hyper important crisis mode. I also think it's extremely important as an owner, as a founder, as a boss, to celebrate the fact that we're no longer in crisis mode, to give your people an opportunity to decompress and to go back to normal. And it takes real communication there to say, okay, you guys were awesome. First off, go out and have dinner on the business, go take your wife on a date, do whatever, spend some time with your kids, See on Monday, whatever. The thing is, it'll be back to normal. Because the same way we talk about context switching being difficult in the moment of going from a pomodoro to distracted to back to the pomodoro, it is far more difficult to go from non crisis. So it's actually very easy to go from non crisis mode to uber crisis mode because you're just in instantly, you're thrown into the muck.
- [46:17]
Matt Reynolds
Yeah, that one's almost natural.
- [46:19]
Chris Reynolds
But coming out of the muck, it's often. And what you have to understand is that, and this is what I talk about in the book, that there are times when urgency is good. Urgency is galvanizing for the team. You can see how much you can actually get accomplished as a team, all those things, but it is entirely unsustainable. So once you're out of the crisis as a leader, you also have to help people understand. Now's the time to take a breath, to get some sleep, to get some food, to spend some time with your family. See, in a couple days at work, it's back to normal. All those rules we pulled are back in place and nothing changes. And the only thing that changes is we are now galvanized as a team. Congratulate them. Take zero of the credit for any of it, no matter what you did. Yep. Put all the credit back on your people and congratulate them. Tell them how much you appreciate them. Tell them what a huge deal it was. They didn't have to work 72 hours straight. And sometimes they do. And then you've got to figure out how to context switch back into normal mode. And this is often where I will. I actually wondered, have you had this vacation set up in Florida for a while?
- [47:29]
Matt Reynolds
Yeah. Yeah.
- [47:30]
Chris Reynolds
Okay. So I wondered if you booked it because of the crisis mode. You were. And I'll do that sometimes. It has just been completely nuts for three weeks and we're going to Mexico for a week and crisis mode is over. And what I found is that even for me, you know, on the outside, the way I'm communicating and expressing myself to my employees, my staff, my family is still calm, but deep down inside, I'm still like. My adrenals are, like, fried. They're fatigued.
- [48:00]
Matt Reynolds
Mine will not stop for sometimes like three, four days. I mean, it's gone a week before me too. Pretty easy. Where it was very, very hard for me to become normal again. Yeah.
- [48:11]
Chris Reynolds
Yeah. This is actually why we've started to do. We actually do a few less vacations, but we do them longer. So we do a lot of 10 to 14 day vacations. Because if I'm coming out of stress mode, I go for a week. I don't relax till day five or six, and then I get one day of vacation I want to go. If it takes me five or six days to relax, then I want an actual week of.
- [48:32]
Matt Reynolds
To be in that relaxed mode.
- [48:34]
Chris Reynolds
Yeah, right back into the crazy. And so it's really hard.
- [48:38]
Matt Reynolds
I think this is another example of a place where I feel like, you know, we. We talked about this before. We'll talk about again, like, we are not perfect. And I can tell you that the side of this that I am the worst at is the transition back. By far. By far. I can get into the mode really quick. I think it's a muscle that's strong for me, naturally, for whatever reason, I think the other one isn't. And so I have learned some tricks that do make it better, and this is one of them. I agree completely. Like if you can take a vacation, but. But even when you take the vacation, I think for me it's more about all the mental things I've got to do. I've got to force myself to do. There's certain ways that I need to interact with Slack, for example, which is where almost everything happens in my world so that I don't allow myself to get pulled back into it when it really isn't. We're not in the middle of crisis anymore, right? And so there's just. If for no other reason, you need to be ready when the next one comes, right? And so for that reason, like you need. You need to be. You need to figure out how to get out of it. It's very important.
- [49:40]
Chris Reynolds
Exercise, good food, good rest, good sleep. All those things, like, really matter. Because I want to come back ready to knock it out of the park again, but I can't do that 24 hours after crisis mode.
- [49:52]
Matt Reynolds
No, that's absolutely right. There's a process that I think some of you may have never heard of before that I'll, I'll talk about. I think it's really, really good in an area of the world that we live in, sort of invented around a space called DevOps. I don't know if you've ever heard of it, but the idea is it's sort of where software development and operations within an organization sort of meet. It's where those two things happen together. And normally the events of a technical crisis almost always involve things related to this field. And so they invented this idea called a blameless postmortem.
- [50:30]
Chris Reynolds
Oh, I love. We do this all the time.
- [50:32]
Matt Reynolds
And they are so, so good. Because the idea of the blameless postmortem is to intentionally set a meeting. Again, I think it normally needs to be within three days of the event because it needs to be pretty fresh. What. What happened? Still in your head. But you put the people who were in the war room together. There may be a few additional stakeholders that are involved, but for the most part, it's just going to be the people that were in that war room. And what you do is you go over everything that happened. How did it happen? What was the root cause of this thing? You figure out how you might have been able to respond earlier. Because remember, this is a game of time.
- [51:09]
Chris Reynolds
Right.
- [51:09]
Matt Reynolds
This is. You heard me say multiple times now, like, the clock is ticking. And I can hear it. Like, in my head, I can hear it. And so every minute matters in this context. Could we have learned this five minutes earlier? Could we have learned it five days earlier? That's. It's a huge difference as to the severity of the crisis based on how much time you have. And so you definitely want to think about how could we have built systems that would have alerted us to this earlier in the process so we could have had more time? And then you want to figure out what went well in the process and also what didn't go well. You know, like, this stuff is actually really practical. In one that I did in 2012, in 2012, my first company, we had one where we had done a very. A very difficult software release. It was the first and most intense one I've ever had in my life, actually. And I think partially because I wasn't totally prepared for how to deal with it, both in and out of the crisis. Well, in. In still felt natural, but out of the crisis really didn't feel natural at that point. I was in my 20s, and it was. But one of the practical things we said was we had all these people in an office at that point in time, and we didn't have any healthy food. Like, we were all just eating garbage for, like, three days, which is not. Not great. Like, so one of the things that came out of it is like, you know, let's keep some bananas around, or let's have somebody whose job it is to go up to the grocery store and just bring us some, like, fruit and stuff, like, I don't know, like, some meat and, like, just, I don't know, healthy things. But those are good example of a place where you sort of drill into, how could we do this better? How can we do this in a way that is the most effective? But I think the part of it that is the most important and the part that I think most people will miss is the blameless part of that. Blameless postmortem.
- [52:47]
Chris Reynolds
Yep.
- [52:48]
Matt Reynolds
It is possible. I've been in this situation, by the way, multiple times, where almost everyone on the planet would point to one human being. They would say that human caused this thing.
- [52:59]
Chris Reynolds
Right.
- [52:59]
Matt Reynolds
They're the one that did it. And I would say, even if they are the one that knocked the domino over, you built a system that allowed them to knock that domino over.
- [53:09]
Chris Reynolds
Sure. Especially as a founder or owner, how did I create an atmosphere or a culture that allowed this to happen. That's on me.
- [53:18]
Matt Reynolds
We don't have a system in the world where there are nuclear weapons all over the place that three year old toddlers can walk up and just hit a button and set them off. Right?
- [53:28]
Chris Reynolds
Sure.
- [53:28]
Matt Reynolds
Because our systems are supposed to keep that from happening. Right. And so even if you have a malevolent actor, even if you have someone who wants to do harm, your system should protect against that. Right. So the blameless postmortem. The idea of the blameless postmortem is to figure out how to update and modify the process. And this plays so well into our previous podcast because we just had podcasts where we talked about standard operating procedures and playbooks. And this is where those get modified, right?
- [53:58]
Chris Reynolds
Yep.
- [53:58]
Matt Reynolds
So we go look at those, we figure out something in this process broke somewhere. Maybe it's that we didn't have one. Maybe we didn't have a standard operating procedure or a playbook. But when you come out of the end of Blameless Postmortem, first of all, there's, there's kind of a document that you want to come up with with, and they can be different depending on your company, but the net effect should ultimately be a modification or a new playbook or standard operating procedure that helps the team understand this is what we are changing so that this thing never happens in the future. Now, you also want to be sure that you. That the whole team understands we're just saying this thing, other ones are going to happen in the future.
- [54:38]
Chris Reynolds
Sure.
- [54:39]
Matt Reynolds
And I think that is hard for some people to swallow, but it is the reality. So, yeah, that's what you do.
- [54:44]
Chris Reynolds
One of the things we do with the postmortem that has worked really well for us is that I have the executives, especially those that are in the war room, write, not an Amazon 6 page paper, but like what we call a one pager, which if it's two pages is fine, but basically a white paper of that exact thing. And what I found is when they write that, when I write it, I still have a lot of emotions attached to the thing. And so you write it, but you don't post it. You save it in drafts. We do all our stuff on Basecamp, save it in drafts. And tomorrow morning when you get up, you go back through it and you edit it and you make sure that the blame is pulled out and you focus on the blameless piece. And then when you have the meeting, so often we'll send those papers and maybe we read them ahead of time or maybe the first 20 minutes of the meeting is we're just going to read through the postmortem write ups. 3, 4, 5 postmortem write ups, they're all a page long. And then discuss the thing. Because what I found is within two or three days of crisis mode, there are often still a lot of people that are still very emotionally attached to the thing that happened. And by forcing yourself to write the thing, it's like when you make a post on X or something and you're like, I don't know if I should post this. Just don't. Just save it as a draft and tomorrow see what it looks like. And almost 99% of the time you're just like, okay, I don't need to post that. Right.
- [56:11]
Matt Reynolds
And so there's two good principles, by the way, that come out of that that I feel like are also important. One of them was Buffett that always said, you can always tell somebody to go to hell tomorrow. Right, Right. I think it's an important one. It's like, get that deep in your brain. The second one was that Lincoln did this all the time. Like, apparently, if you study Lincoln at all, Lincoln had a giant pile of letters never sent.
- [56:31]
Chris Reynolds
Right.
- [56:32]
Matt Reynolds
And it was. The whole purpose was to write it. Billy, Billy Madison. That's funny.
- [56:39]
Chris Reynolds
And then you wait till tomorrow and then. And so, yeah, we do that and then we do our postmortem and then we go, okay, here's the lessons learned. We've done that with board meetings. And you know, anytime something is like, okay, this didn't go the way we thought it was going to go, why, you know, and take out all the blame, and how can we prepare for this better next time? What systems do we need to put in place? We write that out very simply. Not a six page essay, one pager. And then we have that meeting and we focus on those documents so that it keeps us from diving back into emotional mode. And so that's crisis. And so for those of you guys who are out there, men and ladies both, who are founders and entrepreneurs and owners, like crisis mode will occur that we know those days are going to happen. Days like we had last week where you were up all night long working on a crisis mode for a customer. I had the stomach flu. There was nothing that we could do that you figure out, okay, how do I get through the crisis? And once you're through the crisis, you go, okay, like, how now do I handle coming out of crisis mode and going back to normal mode? And that's really important. It's as important as moving into crisis mode. But in crisis mode, being the leader that your business needs, staying calm, understanding a process and procedure, order of operations, very clear, very detailed, so that you can tell each person, this is what I need you to do. This is what I need you to do. This is what I need you to do. This is what I'm going to do. Will allow you to galvanize the team because they then understand that when the crap hits the fan, you're not going to leave them.
- [58:21]
Matt Reynolds
That's right.
- [58:21]
Chris Reynolds
And I think that's really what everybody wants to know. Like when stuff really goes bad, even if it's, you know, if I'm an employee, even if it's my fault, my boss isn't going to fire me because of X, you know, it's this like, okay, we're in this together. We solved the problem together. We did the postmortem, we didn't blame. And now we've learned from this. Because if you go through the crisis, you never learn, then the next crisis.
- [58:45]
Matt Reynolds
Is as bad or worse. Definitely. There you go.
- [58:49]
Chris Reynolds
There's crisis mode. For the build you'd business podcast with Matt and Chris Reynolds. Thank you so much for listening. Thanks for being patient with us for missing last week. Hope you guys have a great weekend this weekend. Happy Friday to you. We'll see you next Friday. I think we're going to talk about the game plan because we kind of led into that in our previous podcast. But this was a great opportunity while it was fresh in our mind to talk about what crisis mode looked like.
- [59:11]
Matt Reynolds
Awesome.
- [59:12]
Chris Reynolds
Thank you for listening. We'd love a five star review on Apple podcasts or Spotify or wherever you listen to your podcast again. Ratings have been great. Top 50 every week, which has been fantastic and wild to see the names that, you know the podcast that we listen to, like founders and Hormozi and Tim Ferriss and, and like my first million, like we're beating all those guys.
- [59:33]
Matt Reynolds
It's really bizarre.
- [59:34]
Chris Reynolds
So thank you so much for, for listening, for giving us your time. Hope you're getting value out of this if you do again, we'd love a five star review. Share it with a friend or family member. We'll see you guys next Friday. Sam.