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Building One with Tomer Cohen
Building Nike with Jason Mayden: Designing the Jordan Brand through Emotional Connection
00:47:07
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- [00:01]
Mindy Kinsilla
LinkedIn news innovation ultimately is solving problems.
- [00:09]
Tomer Coyne
It came back to my own personal pain point.
- [00:12]
Jason Maiden
It just takes a while to build that trust. The problem that I was trying to solve, it was all I was thinking about. You have to be obsessed with the human condition.
- [00:20]
Tomer Coyne
I'm Tomer Coyne, Chief product officer of LinkedIn and this is building one.
- [00:27]
Jason Maiden
You have to first focus on emotion. How do you want people to feel? Not feel the product, but feel about themselves in the context of your brand.
- [00:38]
Tomer Coyne
That's Jason Maiden, the Chief Design Officer of the Jordan brand at Nike. He's speaking with me about how he approaches designing shoes that go beyond just performance. They become cultural touchstones. We're going to get into that and so much more. So stick around.
- [00:58]
Lars Schmidt
The LinkedIn podcast network is sponsored by Dell AI Factory with Nvidia, which provides AI solutions that are easy to implement, secure and tailor to your business. Visit Dell.com to learn more.
- [01:15]
Tomer Coyne
Growing up, I was obsessed with the Air Jordan shoes, specifically Air Jordan 9. As a kid I wholeheartedly believed it would make me a much better basketball player. I wanted to dunk and the Air Jordan Jordan was all I needed to finally fly to the rim. But they were very, very costly. In fact, they would cost a significant amount of my parents salary. So I saved money until I could finally afford them. Decades later, seeing these Air Jordan nine shoes still evokes the same emotion in me that if I wear those shoes I can play like Jordan. I can be like Mike. I'm excited to kick off our second season with a very special friend. Today's guest has one of the most unique backgrounds I've ever seen. After growing up in the south side of Chicago, Jason Maiden landed a rare internship at Nike. And from there he worked his way up to a senior leadership position. And then at a peak in his career, he decided to leave to become a design fellow at the Stanford D School and branched out into multiple entrepreneurial ventures. He's authored books for adults and kids alike and he recently returned to Nike as the Chief Design Officer for the entire Jordan brand. Jason is an extremely thoughtful and dynamic person with a huge amount of insight to learn from. In this episode we'll get into how Jason hustled his way into Nike as a kid. Why he looks well beyond product features to emotional connectivity with the user. The reason he tries to include outside functions within his own staff meetings. The number one skill he believes you need to have to be an excellent product designer. And of course, what he learned from working alongside the legendary Michael Jordan. Let's get into it. It's pretty clear that design is the theme throughout your life. And I'm just curious what inspired you to go into design? Feels like it's in your blood. How did you know this was it from the beginning?
- [03:16]
Jason Maiden
The honest answer is I didn't know design was even the potential path for me because I didn't have the lexicon of industrialized creativity. What I knew was that in order to dream beyond the confines of my community, imagination had to become, for lack of a better phrase, creativity became my jump shot. A lot of my peers, we all play sports. Sports is always a catalyst for changing your family's trajectory when you grow up in an inner city. For me, I looked at creativity as a sport. I looked at creativity as a. As a form of altruistic rebellion. I looked at creativity as participating in future history. You know, I love the museum culture I grew up in in Chicago. A lot of people don't know that Chicago is an exceptionally profound architectural, industrial, you know, artistic kind of time capsule. And so I was predisposed to wanting to be in this industry, even though I didn't know the name of it. But the moment that I think I probably consciously declared that this was a path was seven years old. I was in a hospital as a kid, and I was fighting a severe blood infection that almost took my life. I couldn't physiologically do a lot of things, but intellectually, I remained sharp. People in my community used to donate books to the hospital, and I came across this Batman comic book. And Batman was special for me because on the weekends, my father, we would go and play basketball. We would get Chicago style popcorn, and we would watch the old Adam West Batman together. So I knew Batman as a TV show. I didn't realize Batman was a comic book at that age. So it was Batman 307. Never forget it. And in that comic was the first time they introduced the character Dr. Lucius Fox. And I remember vividly thinking, like, who is this dude that's telling Bruce Wayne to be quiet and he'll call him back? I'm like, he was the CEO of Wayne Enterprises. He was a mechanical electrical engineer. He built all the gadgets for Batman. He was his caregiver. He was Thomas Wayne's best friend. I'm like, man, I want to be like that dude. And in my mind, Michael Jordan was Bruce Wayne. And so all I knew at seven years old is that if I made it out of the hospital, when I got better, I wanted to create gadgets for Batman. And those gadgets were essentially the shoes for Michael Jordan. And I didn't have a clue what that was called as a career path. I just knew that internally it made me feel like I had a purpose. It made me feel like I could be part of the conversation. It made me feel like my skills and my talents and interests were valid. And I just kind of pursued that. It became an obsession, you know, a life's calling. And I've continued that through everything I do. This seven year old version of myself that wants to use creativity to serve others, it's part of my DNA. It's part of who I see myself as, as a leader.
- [05:57]
Tomer Coyne
That's amazing. And that dream pretty much came true. Unbelievable. I'm sure it's not as, not always as glorious as the comics booths would show it, but it's amazing to see that.
- [06:09]
Jason Maiden
Absolutely. You know, anything worth doing comes with difficulty. It's in the difficulty that you get to relish in the jo. Right. It's a duality to everything. So the low moments help me appreciate the high moments that much more. The low moments and the pain let you know that you're alive. You know, that's one of the indicators of being here, is feeling everything. And so I don't let how I feel or what the moment presents itself to be. I don't let it change how I show up. I try to observe it, not absorb it. Most times people see the difficulty in achieving these things that seem impossible. I see the adventure. I see a mountain, I want to climb it. I'm not intimidated by it. And I don't know where that comes from, but I use it every single day of my life.
- [06:52]
Tomer Coyne
This reminds me a story you told me once about how you started with Nike, that 1-800-phone-call. Can you share a little bit about that? I think people would really appreciate learning from that a little bit.
- [07:01]
Jason Maiden
Yeah. So Nike growing up in the 90s, they used to put these 1, 800 numbers on advertisements on print, where it was kind of a can response, an automated message. And I would call every time I saw a number, I would call to see what would be the different message because I thought it would possibly be another person on the end of the line that I can interact with. And so I figured out that, okay, this is advertising. There has to be a number that I can call to really speak with someone at the company. I flipped over the shoebox and they used to put customer service, the phone number on the bottom and the address and the number was, you know, 503-671-6453 and six four, five, three spells Nike on a keypad. And so I figured that out. I called and I got in touch with customer service. I told him I wanted to work there, design shoes like it was a dream. I have to be there. The person on the other end of the line stops me and says, hey, little girl, I really appreciate your ambition. I was like, okay, I get, I have a high pitched voice. I was a kid, I had no clue. But I'm just like, I pour my heart out and all he can say is, hey, little girl. He's impressed. I'm like, what in the world happened? But it was the fact that this person said, hey, you're looking for an internship. I had never heard that word. And so from that point forward, I did everything I could to educate myself on what is an internship? How does one obtain an internship? What is the process of even being considered worthy of an internship? And that's what led me on this adventure to eventually fly myself out to Nike my sophomore year of college and just showing up and absorbing the environment and making my dream real.
- [08:32]
Tomer Coyne
So now you're chief design officer at Nike, specifically the Jordan brand. So, folks, to understand, what does that mean day to day, like, how do you think about the responsibilities? What does that entail to be the chief design officer of the Jordan brand?
- [08:43]
Jason Maiden
Yeah. So one of the things that I've done specifically with titles is I've kind of not devalued them, but set them to the side. The reason being is the market dictates the value of a title because the market says, here's the skills that are valuable in this discrete moment in time. What's always relevant is an archetype. And if we're the protagonist in our own narrative, I had to ask myself, what is my archetype? What is my disposition in this hero's journey? So internally, I call myself a cultural alchemist. My job is to pull in multiple different inspiration points and pour into my team. That's it. Every single day I'm finding ways to educate my team, to inspire my team, to pour creativity and humor and joy into my team. Because I do believe in the transmutation of energy into the products we create. If you have good intentions, if your heart is full, if you're vibrant, if you're joyful, if you're exuberant, imagine what you do with the product you design. And then imagine a kid holding that product and absorbing that energy because they can feel the love in something that's crafted and well considered and, you know, treated with high regard. When you kind of slap stuff together and put a product into the world and hope people like it. The kid can feel that, too. And so my job is to pour into people that are pouring into others. And that means the types of meetings I have are different. Everything from strategy, understanding the evolution of our P and L, our business model, to listening to people's hopes and dreams and understanding that they're full human beings having a human experience. And the job is a part of that. It is not the sum total of it. And I have to figure out, how can I, during my tenure as a leader, create memories that are worthy of them recanting with their grandchildren? They can say, I did this thing with these people and it meant something. So when we talk about operating a business, businesses exist when people believe in them. And so my job is to cultivate belief in the company and the brand and the purpose of the work that we do and the value that we create in the hearts and minds of the kid, in the communities of the kid. And so it varies day to day. I try not to be rigid, because I think when you're rigid, you don't leave room for unexpected joy. And that's part of the magic of sport, is unexpected, impromptu joy. Because sport at the drop of a dime, an athlete can change direction. An injury can happen. The person who was counted out and was the sixth man or sixth woman on the team hits the game in a jump shot, right? And so for me, I treat design like it's a sport. So I don't believe that I can build something in a linear, progressive way. It has to be done in a multimodal fashion. So I pull in from different industries, different inputs, because it can create unexpected outcomes that literally deliver joy to the kid who's buying our product for the first time. That's what my day looks like. I'm obsessed about how do I create these moments where the kid is laying in their room, in their bed, holding up our shoes, staring at it, feeling like they just have entered into the conversation and they're part of something that's bigger than them. And if you were to talk to my team about what that feels like for them, they know that I care deeply about adventures and narratives and education. So I'm constantly feeding them with insight and curiosity and trying to get them to remember that we're just grown kids that are getting paid to draw shoes and clothes. That's pretty freaking cool. So that's what my day looks like, is to humble myself and remember, like, this is a dream job. I'm doing exactly what I was doing in second grade. Sitting in class, getting in trouble for it. Now I actually get to do it at the highest level and get paid for it. So I feel really grateful for this opportunity.
- [12:21]
Tomer Coyne
Incredible. And Jason, you talked about Bruce Wayne, Batman. When I had these conversations on the show, you could see people's superpowers come out. And for you, there's clearly several. We talked about how you manage the team and how you inspire. We talked about your own kind of hustle and thinking and dreaming. There's one trait or particular skill, I think you've been quite open about it, which has been neurodivergent. And that could be a superpower. What is it for folks who don't know what it is? And two, how does it come to life at work?
- [12:55]
Jason Maiden
Yeah. Such a. Such a timely and important question. I found out at 38 that I was on a spectrum. When I was a child, it was the assumption of adhd. I got older, started to do more research and started to have more conversations and found out that it was Autism Spectrum disorder. And my first reaction to it was sadness. I thought, like, man, okay. Early childhood education teachers told my parents that I was broken and that something was wrong with me because I'm a 7 year old, 8 year old reading physics books and, you know, I wasn't interested in what my peers were interested in. I was fascinated by building things.
- [13:33]
Tomer Coyne
And this is inner city Chicago.
- [13:35]
Jason Maiden
Inner city Chicago. A 7, 8 year old kid reading a physics book on a playground is definitely not, you know, what gets you into a popularity contest. I felt ashamed at first, like something's wrong with me. Maybe I've passed this on to my kids. Like, did I do something wrong by being born this way? And then I quickly got over that and said, no, no. If this is how my mind works, then I'm going to figure out how to optimize it and use it and celebrate it. Because I do have to make space for other kids who deserve to see themselves the way I get to see myself, or families who are uncertain about how their children will turn out, or adults who are suffering or silenced because they don't want to be ostracized at work for admitting that they may have dyslexia or they may have auditory processing issues. We don't really make space for different styles of learning. We make space for different styles of leading. But I learn different, and that's okay. And I think it's my superpower because I process information faster than my peers. I process massive amounts of information. In my environment, I could become overstimulated. You think of spatial computing and you can hold images and kind of pull them up to the forefront of your consciousness at any time. That's how my mind works. I have multiple ideas, open screens in my mind at all times, and I can pull that screen forward quickly and recant everything. What that's allowed me to do is to create a career where I sit at the intersection of multiple industries, comfortably so technology, business, design, fashion, you know, finance. I just find my brain processes everything to find similarities between disparate topics. I have an obsession with symmetry and balance and order, which does very well for me as a designer. Also, my mind gets frazzled when I don't feel things are efficient. And so that also helps with my vocation. Efficiency is a function of cost saving and it's a function of speed to market when you think about it in the context of business. And so everything that the world has ever said is a limitation for me. I refuse that definition. Being born to the south side of Chicago, growing up in the inner city, going to a public school, everybody told me that was a disadvantage. I saw that as an advantage because I have resilience and determination and grit and I don't have an excuse. I want the uncharted path. I want to be an uncommon person that does massive things. But, and I think that's what being neurodivergent really is, is that you're diverging from what people think is normal. And I don't want to be normal. The world is boring without people who are different. And I embrace that and I want to celebrate it because I know that in my position there's very few people who probably talk about this. It's common in technology, not so common in sport, not so common in fashion and design. So I found my tribe in tech. And then I said, okay, how can I bring the comfort I feel amongst my peers in the tech industry to my industry where if you say anything that isn't deemed cool, people might not want to listen to you. So I'm not trying. I am doing what I set out to do, which is making neurodivergence cool. We need to take up space in every room that we're in.
- [16:33]
Tomer Coyne
Incredible. I can imagine that being a design team inside a design oriented company could feel like if there's a pyramid, you are the one dictating the rules across. And you said in the past, I don't want to fall into that mindset. In fact, for me, it's really important to make sure I maintain connections with the supply chain folks and with the finance folks and distribution folks. I want to avoid any sense of hierarchy or there's a cool kids and there's more of like the supporting functions. I love that. I kind of curious about a little bit of like the why, but how do you bring it to life, to your team?
- [17:12]
Jason Maiden
You know, nothing great is done alone. The power of the team. I've had supporting functions and jobs throughout my entire life. You know, my first real company I started at 10 years old was a snow removal and grass cutting company. It was the way I could buy my own Jordans. But I realized I hated the cold and had seasonal allergies. And I'm like, no, this is not for me. But that service mindset led to me becoming a mover and a janitor. And I remember how I was treated when people thought that my vocation dictated my worth. Like, oh, you're just a janitor. Oh, you're a mover. You should do so much more with your life. And I'm like, man, I'm in college. I'm like trying to get an internship at Nike, but since I'm packing your stuff now, I'm. I'm not as valuable. You think I should not have a conversation with you as a human being, as a peer. So that's when I started to build a disregard for people's titles and started to look at their character more than their competencies. Because character is what keeps you in the room. The competencies is what gets you there. And when you're dealing with a high stakes game of like sports and design, everybody's talented, everybody's good. The difference in my style of leadership is that I want everybody to feel like they're heard and accepted because design led cultures are no longer a thing. It's a creativity layered cultural movement that I'm trying to establish. Creativity exists in every discipline. When you're an operator of a business or you're starting a company, you first are hiring your attorneys and your COOs. Like as a product guy, as a designer, I have a bunch of ideas, okay? I need to find people to help operationalize that. I've been a CEO. I know which part of the process I'm good at and that I love. Do I want to look at discounted cash flows and build out financial models and break even analysis? No. Can I do it? Yes. But I know there are people who love that just as much as I love creativity and design. Because of having that experience of being a janitor and being an executive. I look at everybody as an extension of the design team. Everybody's responsible for protecting a brand. So the security guards in Jordan, the janitors, I tell our people they are our intellectual property defenders, because at night, when we're not there and they're cleaning the building, they're protecting our ip, they're protecting the building. They're there to make sure that our ideas are secure. I invite all the operational functions, or quote, unquote, supporting functions to my staff meetings, and I reposition them like, hey, don't go to HR when you have a problem. Have HR at the beginning of a talent development journey. They should be helping us plan education and learning events and developing skills for our team, not just getting a phone call when someone needs to get in trouble or be put on an action plan. That's disregarding why they got into human resources. They got into human resources to develop talent. Same thing with legal. Ah, man. They're there to kill our dreams and tell us we can't do that idea. No, they're there to create market defensibility and ensure that you're risk mitigating at a fast pace. And so I've brought a lot of the supporting functions to the front end of the creative process. I've embedded them into our functional staff meetings. I take them on off sites with us. I humanize them because they're people and they love the brand just as much as we do. And they don't have the luxury of showing how they contributed like we do. I could pull out my portfolio and show everybody what I did. How do you do that in finance? How do you do that in operations? How do you do that in strategy? It's hard to show your kids what you do every day. So most people go home and show the work that my team does as a way to tell their families what they do for a living. And that breaks my heart, because internally, in certain organizations, those people don't feel like they're a part of that, but that's how they communicate what they're doing to their loved ones. So I want them to feel just as confident that when they go home and they show that picture that they're like, hey, I did the strategy that led to that art direction that led to that campaign. And here's what strategy means. Here's why this is important, and feel like they're also part of the creative process. If we don't do that, then we're not leveraging the power of, you know, collective genius. So if one of us, meaning one function, has a Monopoly on creativity and we disregard everybody else's voice. We just gave room for our competitors to go and take up market share. Because it's the people who don't have the institutional knowledge that sometimes could be the most innovating change makers. Because they're not going to know what's conventional and what's accepted. They're going to come from a place of pure interest. So that's what I try to do. I try to engender curiosity as the norm and I try to make sure that any of these supporting functions that I have ability or access to, that they sit at my table and they're part of the creative discussion so that they can dream with us.
- [21:46]
Tomer Coyne
In many ways, it's like a true sports team analogy. Right. Like to win a championship, everybody's important. Whether you're on the field, off the field, post game, pre game. You're an incredible part of this kind of vision purpose to like win a championship. It sounds very much like an apropos with the brand overall.
- [22:05]
Jason Maiden
Absolutely. I tell people I want to win more than I want to be. Right.
- [22:09]
Tomer Coyne
I love that. So going into principles, one of the things I love to learn from you because I don't have the clue about like creating a shoe, creating a fashion brand. So I love to learn about principles you bring in. How do you balance performance with fashion trends or the look and feel or the brand? Like if you're building a performance shoe, it needs to perform. There's also elements of design in that and there's elements in design when it comes to like cultural and fashion. So I don't know, those are trade off principles or how do you bring all those facets together?
- [22:40]
Jason Maiden
Yeah, I mean, the simple answer for a very complex, nuanced question is you have to be obsessed with the current state of the human condition because we, we're beyond the age of features and benefits. Like, it's a paradox of choice. You can't tell people that this is newer and better. Everything's newer and better. Everything's newer and different. And when you understand the human condition, you realize that we are hardwired for self preservation. So change is a threat to our stability. Constant change is a constant threat to our stability. Perpetual change. That's just atrophy. Now you have the paradox of choice. There are too many new things at once. I don't want to choose anything. So in order for us to cut through the noise of features and benefits, technology, the Kardashev scale singularity, human computational power, you know, with, with actual machine learning and where we are in the zeitgeist, you have to first focus on emotion. How do you want people to feel? Not feel the product, but feel about themselves in the context of your brand. Whether I'm selling water, I'm selling shoes, I'm selling food, I'm only designing for the moment that they first interact with it and their reaction to it. That emotional connectivity is key because that's what lasts longer than the product's features and benefits. Because the moment you start getting comfortable with one operating system or one technology, there's the next one, there's the next one, there's the next one. And so if we're trying to impress people with bells and whistles of material science or functionality, they're gonna be like, that's what's up, that's cool. But does it actually help me feel better about myself, my community, my world in this ever changing cycle of life? You know, the instability we see in the markets with the conversations globally of what's happening? The last thing people wanna do is to put themselves in a situation where they're choosing uncomfortability, where they're choosing uncertainty by interacting with products that are unfamiliar. So I obsess over emotional connectivity as offense. Defense is product quality. If you're obsessing over emotional connectivity and product quality, then you have an offense and a defensive strategy. How we do it, I can't disclose, but I could tell you, you said the sports analogy, that's 100%. We have our version of the triangle offense in design. Every part of the process should be considered and every person, whether or not they make the decision or they're impacted by the decision, they are part of why we win or why we lose. And winning for us is having a kid feel like they can do anything. Regardless if they grow up in rural America and Eastern Europe, South Africa, the south side of Chicago, they all have the same connection to the brand, which is, Michael is the metric of greatness for this generation of human aspiration and human potential. They can become the Michael Jordan of any industry. If they could feed, feel like this brand is the catalyst for who they're becoming, the catalyst for their dreams. And that's, that's what my job is, is to be almost like, you know, a dream catalyzer versus a dream killer. And I take that job seriously.
- [25:37]
Tomer Coyne
We're going to take a quick break, but don't go anywhere. When we come back, Jason's gonna tell us what it's like to work with the legend Michael Jordan.
- [25:44]
Jason Maiden
That mindset of I'M gonna do every single thing it takes to eliminate the way that someone can tell me no is how Michael thinks.
- [25:55]
Lars Schmidt
Today's episode is sponsored by Dell AI Factory with Nvidia. Mindy Kinsilla, Vice president of Strategic Business Development at Dell, shared her thoughts on generative AI and creating efficiencies.
- [26:09]
Mindy Kinsilla
Organizations that aren't thinking about how to leverage generative AI, they are likely to get left behind. Every competitive play is focused on how can I take advantage of generative AI to do what I do better, faster, more cost efficiently. Those are attributes that, in my opinion, become table stakes. So every enterprise organization needs to be thinking about where and how they're going to use generative AI.
- [26:33]
Lars Schmidt
Mindy predicts Gen AI will become part.
- [26:36]
Jason Maiden
Of day to day life.
- [26:37]
Mindy Kinsilla
The partnership between Dell and Nvidia, I think, is fascinating. We're taking two best in breed companies and bringing our capabilities together to solve real world challenges for enterprise organizations. And as we're successful doing this, we're starting to hear those great use case stories from companies that everyone in the world is going to interact and engage with. From medical to retail to manufacturing. This is going to touch every industry, which means everyone is going to encounter the other side of generative AI in their day to day life. When I think about the future of generative AI, I think we're on the early days of Agen. I view these as a continuation of what we've seen in chatbots to digital assistants and the stories of success that we're already hearing there. But imagine a future world where everyone in your company is a manager. They're all taking the tasks that they do day to day and automating those, and they're using agents to offload. Those are going to have to play nicely together. Hopefully. We're on early days of IT and I think that's really exciting to see.
- [27:42]
Lars Schmidt
That was Mindy Kinsilla at Dell. Thanks Mindy. Now back to the show.
- [27:50]
Tomer Coyne
From the minds of visionaries to the desks of disruptors, I'm Lars Schmidt, host.
- [27:56]
Lars Schmidt
Of the Redefining Work podcast.
- [27:58]
Jason Maiden
Join me each week as we explore.
- [28:00]
Tomer Coyne
The new world of work through the lens of those shaping it. CEOs, HR leaders, investors and more. Be a part of the conversation that changes everything. Subscribe to Redefining Work today. All right, we're back. I'm speaking with Jason Maiden, the Chief Design Officer of Nike's Jordan brand. Full disclosure, I'm a massive Michael Jordan fan. I grew up in Israel. I used to wake up at 3am when I was in High school to watch games. And I have like a piece actually here on my floor. Like, you know, like an inch from the last floor that he played on. So massive. Michael Jordan fan. And I remember like I used to drive my parents crazy, you know, middle class family, worked really hard. Nikes were really expensive. Jordans were really expensive. Drove them crazy for years and saved money because I wanted the Jordan nine.
- [28:57]
Jason Maiden
Yeah.
- [28:57]
Tomer Coyne
Because I really believed and I used to play basketball daily. I used to play on the team. I really believe, deeply believed that if I had the Jordan 9, I would play better. I could probably dunk finally with two hands instead of one hand. I really believed. So going back to that emotion, that belief is really strong. And then I heard that analogy of like, Nike is about perseverance. We're the ones when you wake up at 6am and you go on a run and nobody's out but you. We're the one cheering on you. And obviously it's more than marketing. You just talked about how it comes to design. Is there a specific emotion you focus on for specific type of shoes or function when you walk into the design process?
- [29:40]
Jason Maiden
I think it's one, you know, for us because we have Michael as our muse, right? Like we have a human being that walked the planet, that there's evidence of what he did, there's evidence of what he did for others. So we have the good fortune of being very focused and disciplined because we have an example to refer to. And that that emotion or that state of mind is self belief. It's that three in the morning, you know, getting up, watching the game, talking to yourself. It's walking through your kitchen, jumping and touching your door seal, pretending like you're shooting a game in a jump shot with a balled up piece of paper on a trash bin. Like every second of your day integrating its way into your dream of what you see yourself becoming. That obsession, that insatiable desire to continuously pursue the impossible because you feel it in your belly. Like it's not a matter of if, it's a matter of when I'll do this. And to some people, that scares them. To us, that's what compels us, you know, that's what Michael did for me, his work ethic. I applied it to my life. And I'm not going to the NBA finals, but I've been to the Finals. In my context, with his same level of passion and desire and obsession with self improvement and self discipline and self mastery. I don't feel pressure because I'm prepared. Preparation kills pressure. And so that mindset of I'm going to do every single thing it takes to eliminate the way that someone can tell me no is how Michael thinks. Most people try to find a reason for people to tell them yes, no. I'm taking the no's off the table. And that's the introspection, that's the self discipline, that's the continuous audit of my strengths and weaknesses and what I know I need to improve in order to become who I believe I can be.
- [31:17]
Tomer Coyne
I think we can take the last 45 seconds of what you said and like that could be an amazing commercial for the Olympics in any way. One more question on Michael Given. Again, this is maybe for me, I'm kind of invoking my inner child that seems to me like bigger than life like person to engage with. How involved is he in the brand today? I know you worked with him when you were coming up the ranks. What is it like? What would surprise people to learn? What have you learned from him?
- [31:47]
Jason Maiden
Yeah, man, being completely transparent. Michael is exceptionally involved, Amazing, exceptionally involved people don't give him enough credit. He has a stem based mind. He understands the sciences, he understands technology, he understands multiple markets. Like he is an analytical, very right brain person. And you have to be like that for someone who plays sports at his level. He processes faster than most people around. And so that's the fun part with the expectation that he places on me is that I'm the gadget guy. He knows that. Oh, you're going to bring me something from the future. What are you going to show me? What are you going to talk about?
- [32:24]
Tomer Coyne
You're Dr. Lucius.
- [32:25]
Jason Maiden
Yeah, exactly. I've become Lucius for him. And it feels great because he's humble enough to accept that he doesn't know everything and he learns and absorbs and craves information. So when you bring him information that he's never heard before or is unfamiliar with, the next time you see him, he's probably read a couple white papers, he's listened to some podcasts, he's read books, and now he's talking with you at your level of competency. He believes in informational parody. And so if you don't know something, you go learn it. If he doesn't know something, he goes and learns it. He isn't settled with who he is. And he talks about Michael Jordan as a part of his evolution, but not the sum total of his life. He talks about himself referentially in the past. Oh yeah, when I was Michael Jordan, I did this. Which means that he shed the accomplishments of his past to make space for new ones in his life. And that gives me so much joy because what he taught me, what he taught Kobe Bryant, what he taught all these people he's inspired is like I said, that fire in your belly we've seen in the Last Dance, that drive. But what I'm learning from him in this stage of my life is how to succeed and how to age gracefully and how to be okay with your accomplishments and feeling complete with things that are still maybe undefined or unresolved. And also accepting that you won't get everything done that you want to get done in your life, but you should appreciate the things that you were able to accomplish. To see my hero, the most competitive human being on the planet now at peace, that's an example that is priceless. Because when we talk about Michael, we always show him in a performative light. We don't show him in a contemplative, reflective, introspective, just really self aware light. And that's beautiful because I knew who he was when I was a kid. But to get to spend time with him now when he's this successful investor, business owner, you know, global icon, historical figure who's expanding his capacity into new industries and still challenging himself with golf and NASCAR and all the things that he does, it's such a blessing because it just proves like even the greatest, most accomplished athlete of all time still has dreams. Still has dreams. And that's cool.
- [34:32]
Tomer Coyne
I have yet to see an example of growth mindset like he has. It's almost like everything is doable, everything is learnable. It's about working hard, improving my strategies, learning my tactics. You know, basically kind of moving up the ladder step by step, not trying to rush anything. And that's just incredible.
- [34:52]
Jason Maiden
Yeah, yeah. I mean, I've applied it to my life and it got me from the south side of Chicago to sitting at the table with him. So his method works. He let me see him as an example of possibility and then told me I could do it too. And I believed it. So now I have a responsibility to engender that same self belief into every single child on this planet.
- [35:13]
Tomer Coyne
I love that.
- [35:14]
Jason Maiden
I won't stop until I do.
- [35:15]
Tomer Coyne
Yeah. Michael Jordan was not born Michael Jordan. Yeah, he wasn't that. Yeah. Obviously you're always going to design for emotion. That feels like a strong principle of yours. Your goal is to get to reach as many people as possible. Product quality is going to be there. What do you think could change in the next three to five years when it comes to not necessarily just the Jordan brand or Nike in general when it comes to shoes or clothing. I'm sure you're deep into technology and AI. I have no doubt. Just curious, what do you think will change? Like when you kind of look at the future, how does that look? Like?
- [35:53]
Jason Maiden
Yeah, I think we're going to see a mass decentralization of manufacturing. You know, we've looked at two different phases of the post industrial revolution once we hit the information age. The first one was small batch production, very nuanced, local craft led product that was a big thing about 15 years ago. Handmade, like people were all hyped that they can make things locally and that was the kind of precursor to the rapid prototyping culture which then gave birth to the DIY culture. So now you have all these kids who've grown up knowing more about vendors and countries of origin and shipping and manufacturing than they do brand principles, brand positioning. So I grew up during the age of brand marketing where it was very great commercials that made you cry when you saw it. They grew up in the age of reverse engineering and YouTube tutorials and LinkedIn learning. So these kids are more fascinated by how it's made versus how it's positioned. So you're going to see a society that really takes companies and leverages their intellectual property in new different ways. And companies have to figure out how to monetize that and incentivize it. And you're going to see the rise of design becoming significantly unionized. You're going to see designers start to get together and say, hey, how do we benefit from this? What is the upside? Is there a royalty structure that needs to be implemented into product design? It happens in music. You can retro a product and bring it back. But the designers, the developers, the engineers, they don't have an upside to that. The notion of providence and origination, now that's defensible. With the blockchain you could see where everything comes from and who did it. Which means that kids can learn about people's lives that they never knew could be their hero. Imagine how many great people that kids can look up to that we'll never know because they're buried under NDAs and all this, you know, they can't talk about their work. So I think we're looking at this rapid amount of information disclosure, this broad spectrum of new and emerging careers that we have yet to define or discover. But brands will have to now look at themselves as not selling to a consumer, but building with a consumer. They have to build with the people that they want to serve, not for them anymore. And that building with the beautiful part about that is the basis of community. So we're going right back to what our grandparents focused on, which is community. But now it's community with more information and more democratized resources and more ability for people to create their own nuanced version of that community that they love.
- [38:27]
Tomer Coyne
I love that future. Can we bring it forward? Because in many ways it comes down to empowerment and meritocracy. Right. You're basically giving everybody the tools to create the version they want versus feeling they have to be aggregated into some kind of other version of somebody else's future.
- [38:43]
Jason Maiden
Yeah, that's the hope. I mean, all these tools, all this knowledge, man, I'm just excited for what the youth can do with this.
- [38:51]
Tomer Coyne
I have to tell you something. I don't know if I shared this with you before, but your book, a kid's book about design, is one of our favorite books at home.
- [38:58]
Jason Maiden
Oh, man. Thank you.
- [38:59]
Tomer Coyne
It's a fantastic book. Like for many ways. It's not just design. Right. It's like Principles for Life. So highly recommend for folks who have kids or even yourself, for folks to get a book. It's a fantastic way to learn not just about design, but how you think about the world. Like your life philosophy. Jason, before we wrap up, I have a quick rapid fire questions for you that's super quick and fun. Outside of shoes and apparel, what product you've drawn inspiration from?
- [39:28]
Jason Maiden
Manga and anime? Yeah, lots. I love the storytelling.
- [39:32]
Tomer Coyne
Still till today.
- [39:33]
Jason Maiden
Still till today. Always. Always. I just was at an anime expo with my almost grown children about three weeks ago. So no, I'm still like deeply connected to it. I love it.
- [39:43]
Tomer Coyne
What's a product you thought would not work but actually surprise you that it did?
- [39:48]
Jason Maiden
The cybertruck. Yeah, the cybertruck. Just not because of everybody comments.
- [39:54]
Tomer Coyne
You see them in the street right now already or you see.
- [39:56]
Jason Maiden
I see them all over the place. Not because of the design. I didn't think it worked, but because of the size, the space.
- [40:01]
Tomer Coyne
It's like one and a half parking slots.
- [40:03]
Jason Maiden
Yeah. Like it's a behemoth and society and infrastructure isn't built for us. I'm really surprised to see the amount of cybertrucks on the road that I do.
- [40:09]
Tomer Coyne
And lastly, if you could start all over again, would you change careers? What would you learn differently?
- [40:16]
Jason Maiden
I wouldn't change anything. I think in an alternate reality I probably would have been an elementary school teacher, but I wouldn't change anything about it. And the thing for me is I want to do everything, but I also accept that I can't do it all at once. And so I will be an elementary school teacher at some point. I will be in the political sphere, changing cities. If I'm blessed enough to have an exceptionally long life, I want to go on as many adventures as possible. So I can't get points for yesterday's game, but I damn sure can prepare for the next game. I play future versions of me that I know I could become.
- [40:47]
Tomer Coyne
And for folks who would love a career on your team, what would you have them go study or do?
- [40:53]
Jason Maiden
That's the beautiful thing about design right now. There's no wrong or right way to enter into the conversation. I would say the number one skill set you should have is the ability to articulate yourself and document your process. You also have to have a very lost but important skill set of the ability to receive feedback. If you cannot receive feedback and you cannot trust your peers to get you to a place of pushing you to do your best work, then design is in an industry for you, especially on my team, because I crave feedback. It's a sign of respect. When you play sports, if your coach never gives you advice, you're probably getting cut from the team. So, you know, that's how I was raised up in sports. So for me, that's probably the number one skill set is to be able to accept feedback, not criticism. Criticism can hurt, but feedback intended to help make a product better. That's where I would focus as a creative. Look at industries like industrial design, mechanical, electrical engineering, mechatronics. Look at illustration, look at graphic design. Anything that teaches you about human factors, color theory, and human computer interaction. That's going to be relatively extremely important for the near future.
- [42:00]
Tomer Coyne
Jason, as always, this was incredible, man. Thank you so, so much for taking the time.
- [42:05]
Jason Maiden
Of course. Anytime. And thank you for being a little boy who grew up to become who you become. It's important that the world hears your story just as much as they hear mine.
- [42:13]
Tomer Coyne
And it was all about self belief, to your point.
- [42:15]
Jason Maiden
Yep.
- [42:16]
Tomer Coyne
Self belief. Thank you, Jason. We have a lot of super interesting takeaways today, so let's get into it first. Product quality is important, but in Jason's world, that's just playing defense. To build appeal, to grow his market, and to keep Air Jordan culturally relevant, Jason obsesses over emotional connectivity. He tries to figure out how he wants people to feel about themselves in the context of the Jordan brand. There are always going to be new features, but excitement and emotional connection with the brand will always remain sticky. Second, Jason is very open about his neurodivergence and being on the autism spectrum. For him, embracing it has helped him excel. He's always known he was different, but once he got a proper diagnosis, he could use the information available about his condition to optimize, not despair. The way he processes and retains information has allowed him to cultivate an edge as Jordan's cultural alchemist. Education in society might be geared toward certain norms and standards, but that doesn't mean there aren't other great ways of learning, growing, and ultimately reaching the top of your field. Third, look at the various supporting functions at your company and try to see how you might consider them part of your own team. Jason tries to look at everyone at Nike as an extension of his design team, and he invites them to his staff meetings. He welcomes the uninitiated, the outsider's perspective when ideas come from people outside of his functional team, it could be an opportunity to inject pure creativity into his own product building and problem solving process. Lastly, in Jason's words, I tell people.
- [43:58]
Jason Maiden
I want to win more than I want to be right.
- [44:00]
Tomer Coyne
That means not holding too fast to fixed ideas or notions. By continuously auditing his strengths and weaknesses and cultivating a growth mindset, he opens the door for brainstorming and creativity. He continuously seeks to learn and elevate the conversation. It's a powerful lesson he learned from none other than the legendary Michael Jordan himself. Remember, Jordan didn't start as Jordan. He became the greatest of all time by challenging himself and inviting others to do the same. It's an important growth mindset lesson that becoming is better than being. The moment you stop challenging yourself is the moment you stop growing. I'm Tomer Coyne. Thank you for listening. I learned a lot from this conversation and I hope you did as well.
- [44:46]
Lars Schmidt
We'll be back in two weeks with Sal Khan, the founder of Khan Academy. If you liked this episode, don't forget to rate and review us on Apple podcasts. It'll help people discover the show. Building one is a production of LinkedIn News. Our host is Tomer Cohen, LinkedIn's chief product officer. This episode was produced by Max Miller. Our associate producers are Lolia Briggs and Rachel Karp. We're engineered and mixed by Asafka Drunk and we get additional production support from Alicia Manny at LinkedIn News. Sarah Storm is senior producer and Enrique Montalvo is our executive producer. Dave Pond is head of productions and creative operations. Maya Pope Chappelle is director of content and audience development. Courtney Koop is head of original programming. Dan Roth is the editor in chief of LinkedIn. If you know a product leader we can all learn from, send us a line@pitchesinkedin.com.