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- [00:00]
Richard Karn
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- [01:01]
Sam Stein
Sam Stein, managing editor at the Bulwark, and I'm joined by Congressman Greg Landsman of Ohio. He's here to talk about what is a fairly scary situation happening on the Hill, but also off the Hill. It relates to what happened in Minnesota over the weekend. The horrible assassination of a lawmaker there and her husband, and the targeting of multiple other lawmakers. The Congressman, thanks for joining us, I appreciate it. We brought you on because yesterday brought some really unfortunate news and I just sort of want to get a sense of what it's like that you were on the list of people allegedly targeted by this Minnesota shooter. I guess I'll just start with, tell me about how you discovered this and what it was like knowing that you were on that list.
- [01:51]
Greg Landsman
Yeah, law enforcement reached out Sunday morning and let us know and then, you know, asked us to take, you know, some additional precautions around security and which we did. And we worked with local law enforcement and because we used local resources, I wanted to make sure people understood why. And, you know, and, and I do also want to talk about this. I, I, you know, I, I, I think this is an opportunity for those of us who want to see an end to this to, you know, go out there and say, look, there's a better Way I remember politics when this didn't happen, and I believe there's a time when we can, you know, when we, when, when we can, you know, not have to deal with any of this. And, and so I think a part of that is saying this is extremism. It's not Democrat or Republican. It's, it's just unwell. People who have been radicalized, probably online and, you know, we, we owe it to each other to work together in a bipartisan way to, to end this kind of stuff. So, you know, this stuff doesn't happen anymore. And so, yeah, that's, I feel very strongly that we've got to get back to kind of politics where we disagree, but this stuff doesn't happen.
- [03:04]
Sam Stein
I want to get to the larger picture stuff about, you know, the extremism in our politics, but I also want to talk about sort of the minute by minute stuff too, because it is, you know, it's horrifying and I want to understand what it's like to be faced with it. So this shooting happened. I'm trying to make sure I have this correctly, but we got wind of it Saturday morning. The suspect was not apprehended until day, day and a half later.
- [03:34]
Greg Landsman
So Sunday night.
- [03:36]
Sam Stein
Yeah, Sunday night. So authorities knew that you were on the list, but they did not tell you until Sunday? Correct.
- [03:43]
Greg Landsman
Yeah. I, I don't know if they had told Capitol Police before that. It's not entirely clear when, you know, who knew what. Right. Or who knew what when. But Sunday morning, if I remember correctly, it was around 10:30 we found out. So it's about 12 hours between the time we found out and they finally apprehended the guy. Now, he never left Minnesota. Right, but we didn't know that.
- [04:11]
Sam Stein
You didn't know that.
- [04:12]
Greg Landsman
Right? Yeah. You know, so you have, yeah, you know, police, you know, walk on the perimeter of your house every 30 minutes and, and, and you're just waiting and, you know, yes, it's unlikely that this guy got in his car and started driving to other places, but it's possible. You know, it's a 10 hour drive. I mean, I remember my son and I were talking about it. He said, well, you know, Minnesota is really far away. And I said, Buddy, it's a 10 hour drive where, you know, and he did the math. He could be in our backyard.
- [04:42]
Sam Stein
It had been 10 hours.
- [04:44]
Greg Landsman
It had been 10 hours more than that. So. And once they found them, immediate, immediate relief. But there was a, there was a, there was a period of time on Sunday night when I Sort of started pacing around the house thinking, you know, is this guy here? You know, because. Why, you know, why. Why is my name on this list?
- [05:03]
Sam Stein
Well, let me ask you that. Why did they give. Have you had any explanation for why your name is on the list? I mean, no offense to you. I just. You're not from Minnesota.
- [05:15]
Greg Landsman
No, I mean, I'm outspoken on a couple, you know, a couple of big controversial issues. You know, I'm a Jewish member of Congress, you know, who's very outspoken about Israel in this war. I don't, I don't know. You know, I think law enforcement. I know law enforcement has its hands full at the moment in terms of, you know, first they had to get the guy, and second, they've got to put the case together. And so, you know, that is, that's the most important thing. And, you know, at some point, I do hope to get a sense as to other members of Congress who also had their names included either on the list or in his notes. I mean, he apparently had a lot of notes with a lot of names. It's not clear if he had addresses for some of us. And so, you know, it's. The question I think at some point I'd like answered is, you know, was there a reason? And, and what was that reason? Also, you know, is my name on any other list? I just, we, you know, for security purposes, I'd like to, I'd like to know. And, you know, but look, the, the bigger picture here has nothing to do with me. It has to do with a country.
- [06:28]
Sam Stein
We're gonna be one last question on the process, and then we'll get to that. Sorry, I'm terrible. When you find out you're on the list on Sunday morning, I mean, you obviously make a host of calls to family, friends and colleagues.
- [06:42]
Greg Landsman
I, we actually didn't. I think.
- [06:43]
Sam Stein
You didn't.
- [06:44]
Greg Landsman
No.
- [06:45]
Sam Stein
Did you tell leadership or. I mean, what, what do you do in that moment?
- [06:49]
Greg Landsman
In that moment, it's your family. That's it. I, I, and I, I don't want to get in the way of law enforcement. I don't want to, you know, mess with whatever it is they're doing. So, you know, we reached out to local police, you know, got the security that we, you know, were told we, we probably needed just, just to be safe. They were wonderful. We have. Our local cops are phenomenal people. I've known them for a long time because I was at City hall here, so just the best. And, and then we waited. I let my, you know, my, I let My family, a couple members of the family know. But I, you know, we didn't want any of this to get out because we have no idea what it would have done to the investigation and, and their. The work to get him got you finally did on Sunday night.
- [07:42]
Sam Stein
All right, let's talk big picture, because one of the things that really, I think, upset a lot of people, obviously the biggest tragedy was what happened. But then to see it sort of filtered into this incredible partisan conspiratorial lens in the way that it was so immediately was actually kind of, like, unsettling for me. And I know we were in a new type of politics and everything kind of gets distilled this way, but, like, I just found it almost, like, upsetting in a visceral way to watch it happen. And you knew that you were on the list before you went public saying, I'm on the list. So you knew for a period of time that you were on the list, and then you had to watch as people, members of Congress. Mike Lee in particular, talks about how this is, you know, leftism and Marxism gone run amok. I just, I can't. I would love to know what was going through your head as you watch that.
- [08:39]
Greg Landsman
I just wanted him caught.
- [08:41]
Sam Stein
Yeah, no, of course. Yeah.
- [08:42]
Greg Landsman
You know, like, we, we were all just sort of, you know, as a family unit on our phones, just sort of refreshing the news at, you know, hoping and, and ultimately being very, very relieved when he was, when he was caught. The Mike Lee thing popped up on my, my phone, and it was the first time I saw that image of, of, of the guy and the mask or, or whatever that thing is. And, you know, a few hours later, because of that, I, I, I thought about. I was like, well, you know, is that what I'm gonna see, you know, if he pops out of my backyard? So, yeah, I, you know, I, I was so disturbed by it when I sort of got around to thinking about the reactions. I, I really want people to appreciate, like, they don't have to make this partisan. This doesn't have to be anything other than a very unwell person who was radicalized somewhere, probably online, and he went and killed people. And our responsibility as elected officials is to be bigger and better and show kindness and empathy and to say, we are in this together, we are all Americans, and we want a better politics.
- [10:08]
Sam Stein
Why do you think it's so tough for that to happen these days?
- [10:13]
Greg Landsman
I, I don't know. I think part of it is just the way the, you know, social media works and, you know, the instant gratification you get from, you know, put something, something like there on. On online. Maybe he raises money off of it. It. It. You know, I don't, I don't really know. I just hope that Mike Lee wakes up tomorrow and says, you know what? I'm going to be part of the solution. I'm going to say, hey, look, no one deserves this. Political violence has to end. I'm going to be more careful with my rhetoric. And, you know, I hope the president calls the governor and, and does what all presidents used to do or what previous presidents always did, which was to lead and, and, and say, like, we're all going to work together. I'm going to make sure everyone has all the resources they need. We're going to be there for one another, and we're going to look forward and say, what are all the things that we got to do to end this? Right, I see that, yeah.
- [11:11]
Sam Stein
Because, I mean, one conversation is happening which is like, well, we need more resources towards security for lawmakers. And clearly that would be helpful. But that doesn't really quite get at the root here. And I don't really know how to get at the root here. I don't know if you have ideas.
- [11:27]
Greg Landsman
I've been thinking about it a lot because even before this, we, we had protesters sleeping outside of our house for days. I've had, you know, priests, alarming threats come into the office, threats made to me when I've been out in public. I think there needs to be an additional sort of piece of infrastructure on Capitol Hill where all of the data and the various law enforcement agencies are sort of in. Come together, a sort of war room, if you will. And that doesn't require additional spend necessarily. It just means putting some folks in a room together. And we see that we have something like that here in Cincinnati where, where people are looking at all of the data. It's coming into a central place, and you're able to make quicker decisions, better decisions, and, and then, you know, obviously increase security when you're back home. I think that there has to be a real reckoning with these social media companies in terms of what's allowed and what's not allowed, what gets handed over to law enforcement. And I do think there should be some sort of pledge that elected officials take that says, no, we're gonna, we're gonna actually lean into our, our shared humanity. We're gonna disagree with each other and we're gonna be forceful about our disagreements because we're people of conviction, but we're not Going to cross the line and, you know, and, and everyone should expect their lawmaker, their elected official to, to be part of that.
- [13:04]
Sam Stein
Last question. One of the things that's sort of a secondary outcome of this is that I think people who are smart and motivated and idealistic even may be like, why would I want to get involved in public service? Like, it's already kind of a shit show. And then on top of that, it's a threat, frankly, puts a target on me. What do you say to those people?
- [13:29]
Greg Landsman
I, I understand, but the, the country needs good people. This is public service. This is serving your country. And it's, It's. It's hard. Everything, you know, that, that matters and, and has real meaning is hard. So, you know, but is something that can produce a lot of good. I mean, over the course of the last few years, I've. I'm new to politics, elected politics. You know, I was at City hall for five years in Congress. This is my third year. You know, I've been part of pretty big change. I mean, Cincinnati's the. The only city in the country that has two years of quality preschool. I helped lead that with comprehensive eviction prevention work in Cincinnati, you know, has kept tens of thousands of people in their. In their homes. Last year in Congress, I forced a vote with others on the Social Security Fairness Act. And now you got all these public retirees, teachers, firefighters, letter carriers. You know, they're getting all of their Social Security. It's like 6, 700, $800 a month to help them pay their bills. So, like, it is worth it. It is worth it. And, you know, the more good people get involved in politics, the better. So I, you know, this is, all of. This is a. One of those moments where the country does need people.
- [14:45]
Sam Stein
Now. I hear you. You didn't even mention the biggest accomplishment of Cincinnati Skyline Chile.
- [14:51]
Greg Landsman
Well, I didn't do anything with Skylight.
- [14:53]
Sam Stein
Well, you have it. You produce. The city produces it. That's. That's for another YouTube congressman. I'm, I'm really grateful that. Well, not grateful that you had to go through this. I'm grateful you made it through this, and hopefully.
- [15:05]
Greg Landsman
I just want to be clear.
- [15:06]
Sam Stein
Yeah.
- [15:06]
Greg Landsman
As you know. Because I don't want. He never left Minnesota. It's just we didn't.
- [15:09]
Sam Stein
I know, but it's still. It's still frightening. I mean, it's still pretty frightening. So I'm sorry you had to go through this, let's put it that way. And please keep us posted on these things. We'll love to have you back on in better circumstances than this one, but I do appreciate the conversation. Congressman Greg Landsman of Ohio, thank you so much. And thank you guys for tuning in. As always, subscribe to the feed where you get great conversations like this.