Bulwark Takes: Episode 15 - How a Zombie Apocalypse EXPOSES Global Politics

Release Date: June 28, 2025

Introduction

In Episode 15 of Bulwark Takes, host Sonny Bunch engages in a compelling discussion with Daniel Dresner, a professor at Tufts University's Fletcher School and the new academic dean. The conversation delves into Dresner's innovative book, Theories of International Politics and Zombies, which humorously yet thoughtfully examines how different international relations (IR) theories would respond to a hypothetical zombie apocalypse. This episode not only explores the intersections of pop culture and political science but also provides insightful parallels to real-world events such as the COVID-19 pandemic.

Guest Introduction and Book Inspiration

Sonny Bunch introduces Daniel Dresner and congratulates him on his recent promotion to full professor, highlighting the significance of his new role:

“As of July 1, yes.” (01:10)

Dresner explains the genesis of his book, which began as a blog post inspired by an epidemiological paper modeling a zombie outbreak. He critiques the paper for its lack of political considerations, such as borders and governmental responses, which led him to explore how various IR theories would handle a zombie scenario.

“I wrote like a blog post for Foreign Policy saying, well, here's what the different theories would be.” (02:10)

Dresner recounts the development process of his book, emphasizing the importance of maintaining a serious scholarly tone to naturally infuse humor into his analysis.

“You have to write this in the exact same tone. You would write a serious piece of scholarship. That's where the humor will come out.” (03:25)

Exploring IR Theories Through a Zombie Apocalypse

Dresner outlines how his book uses the zombie apocalypse as a framework to dissect and understand various international relations paradigms:

1. Realism

   • Emphasizes a Hobbesian world where survival is paramount.
   • Realists believe the introduction of zombies wouldn't drastically change global dynamics since the world is already perceived as anarchic and competitive.
   • States with the most power would adapt and resist the undead threat effectively.

   “Realists posit that it's a dog eat dog or in the case of zombies, man eat man kind of world out there.” (07:20)

2. Liberalism

   • Views the international system as capable of cooperation despite anarchy.
   • While globalization could exacerbate the spread of zombies, liberals argue that strong incentives for cooperation would lead to the formation of international coalitions to combat the undead.
   • Dresner speculates about the emergence of global organizations dedicated to fighting the zombie threat.

   “Liberals have a tricky time with, with the zombie apocalypse… there would likely be a much bigger problem initially in a liberal world order than in a more realpolitik one.” (08:45)

3. Social Constructivism

   • Focuses on the role of norms, identities, and social constructs in shaping international relations.
   • Dresner suggests that the normalization of zombies could lead to shifts in societal values and identities, potentially even fostering movements that align with zombie-like lifestyles.

   “Human beings adopt zombie tropes and that there are reasons why you might actually like the zombies.” (10:15)

Parallels to Real-World Events: The COVID-19 Pandemic

Dresner draws striking parallels between his theoretical zombie apocalypse and the real-world response to the COVID-19 pandemic. He highlights how initial public trust in governmental actions can erode over time, leading to skepticism and resistance to public health measures.

“The thing that I still find legitimately disconcerting is that's a pretty good explanation for what happened during COVID.” (11:30)

He reflects on the rapid development of vaccines as a success, likening it to the hypothetical scientific advancements in combating zombies.

“We had a working vaccine from COVID in less than a year after it went global. I mean, by historical standards that's fricking amazing.” (13:10)

Dresner remains cautiously optimistic, acknowledging both the triumphs and shortcomings of global responses to crises.

Influence of Zombie Media on IR Understanding

The conversation touches on how popular zombie media, such as 28 Days Later and Max Brooks's World War Z, have shaped Dresner's perspectives and provided the foundational narratives for his analysis.

“Max Brooks's novel, World War Z… It is a fantastic read. It's the best zombie novel out there.” (05:15)

These narratives serve as accessible tools for explaining complex IR theories to broader audiences, including high school students.

“Your average 18 year old knows a ton more about zombies than international relations theory.” (02:50)

Conclusion

Sonny Bunch and Daniel Dresner conclude the episode by reflecting on the enduring relevance of using unconventional scenarios, like a zombie apocalypse, to elucidate and critique established international relations theories. Dresner's work not only entertains but also challenges listeners to reconsider how theoretical frameworks apply to extraordinary situations, shedding light on both academic concepts and real-world political dynamics.

“It's kind of miraculous that not that we were housebound for so long but that in fact we eventually scienced the shit out of it.” (14:20)

Final Thoughts

Episode 15 of Bulwark Takes offers a unique blend of humor and academic insight, making complex political theories accessible through the engaging lens of a zombie apocalypse. Daniel Dresner's innovative approach invites listeners to explore international relations in a novel and thought-provoking manner, highlighting the intricate connections between popular culture and scholarly discourse.

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