Bulwark Takes: "A Jury Said No. Mike Johnson Said 'Probably.'"
Date: February 11, 2026
Hosts: JVL & Andrew Egger
Guest quoted: House Speaker Mike Johnson
Overview
This episode of Bulwark Takes centers on the Department of Justice's failed attempt to indict six lawmakers who publicly reminded members of the military and intelligence community of their duty to resist illegal orders. The conversation explores the resilience of the American criminal justice system in the face of mounting authoritarian pressure, the institutional vulnerabilities exposed under Trump-era governance, and the cascading effects of staff attrition and demagoguery on federal enforcement agencies. The hosts also reflect on the MAGA movement's escalating animosity toward jury trials and the nature of everyday institutional courage.
Key Discussion Points & Insights
1. DOJ's Failed Indictment and What It Means
- Background: The Department of Justice sought criminal indictments against six lawmakers for publishing a video urging military personnel to disregard illegal orders. Grand juries rejected these indictments.
- Significance: JVL underscores the alarming nature of the attempt, regardless of its failure. “It seems like an attempt to criminally prosecute opposition lawmakers for saying that people should obey the Constitution might be a red line.” (03:02)
- Escalation: Andrew details additional authoritarian responses: Trump inciting violence on social media, and Secretary of Defense Pete Hegseth hinting at court-martials for the lawmakers. (03:15–03:38)
2. Systemic Resilience vs. Institutional Failure
- Jury System Praised: Andrew highlights the grand jury’s refusal—"It really is just this one…a great system. Grand juries are…representative sample of schmoes who, it turns out, have more courage than like any elite institution that you might name right now.” (04:10–04:18)
- Elites and Institutions Cowed: Both hosts lament the compliance of most institutions (business, universities, politicians) in contrast to regular Americans.
- Failure to Sound the Alarm: JVL is concerned about widespread public complacency: "I'm a little concerned that nobody is freaking out about this. This morning… the general reaction seems to be, yeah, they didn't actually get indicted. So no harm, no foul. I think that's wrong." (04:34–04:52)
3. Trump’s Relentless Pressure on the Justice System
- Pattern of Behavior: Andrew warns, “This is a guy who's going to push every button on the dashboard… He's got a whole apparatus of mooks who are willing to help facilitate those [punishments].” (05:36–05:47)
- External Checks as Last Line of Defense: Only interventions from "outside the system"—like grand juries and independent judges—serve as effective brakes. (05:54–06:17)
- Legal Optimism and Its Dangers: The hosts discuss how some federal statutes assume good-faith enforcement, which Trump and his appointees have shown willingness to exploit to the breaking point. (07:12–07:58)
4. Consequences of DOJ Attrition and Erosion of Professionalism
- Mass Resignations: Citing a piece by Nick Catoggio, JVL notes, "14% of the attorneys have left already after one year…simply refuse to do the illegal things…the administration is demanding." (08:14–08:28)
- Long-Term Risks:
- Incompetence in real criminal prosecutions.
- Rise of ideologically-aligned, less-qualified hires.
- Increasing inability to enforce court orders—“you can overwhelm the system if you just have like lawyers everywhere not doing what the judges tell them to do…” (09:45–10:24)
- Permanent institutional damage with no easy fix, even with a future change of party in power. (10:24–11:57)
- Civil Service Dilemma: Andrew reflects on the destruction of civic-minded public service in law, and the irreparable loss of expertise and dedication: “By taking the high road in the, in the past…they in fact just subjected themselves to this like Kafka-esque torture dungeon of a…line of work.” (13:01–13:13)
5. Distinction Between Maliciousness and Incompetence
- Malice vs. Systemic Breakdown: As seasoned professionals are driven out, it becomes harder to distinguish between mistakes and deliberate wrongdoing. Systemic rot sets in, making accountability elusive. (13:25–15:39)
6. Limitations of Legal Reform
- Letter of the Law Is Not Enough: JVL notes it's impossible to legislate away malicious incompetence; trying to enumerate every contingency would be unworkable. Example: tying every ICE and DOJ action to a named individual for criminal liability is impractical. (15:45–17:18)
7. The Enduring Genius of the Jury System
- Grand Jury Strength: Hosts marvel at the recurring failure to secure indictments against the opposition, even for ideologically loaded charges. “You can get a grand jury to indict a ham sandwich… It's so hard to fail to secure grand jury indictments… It's so hard to do.” (17:39–18:00)
- Why Juries Succeed: Andrew: “Juries are just a great system…There is a genius in that…It's exactly the credentialing bodies… who are the most co-opted right now.” (18:01–18:43)
- Trump’s Political Genius: “Everybody knows that there's nothing too small, nothing too petty that he won't punish you over… [but] doesn't work on juries because he can't apply it at a population-wide level.” (18:45–19:10)
8. MAGA and the “War” on Juries
- Mike Johnson's Response:
- When asked about the DOJ’s failed indictments, Speaker Mike Johnson says:
“I think that anytime you're obstructing law enforcement and getting in the way of these sensitive operations, it's a very serious thing and it probably is a crime and yeah, they probably should be indicted.” (19:25–19:40)
- When asked about the DOJ’s failed indictments, Speaker Mike Johnson says:
- Host Critique: JVL notes Johnson should respect the jury process rather than imply the jury simply got it wrong.
- MAGA’s Diminished Faith in Juries: Andrew, referencing both personal conversations and federal law enforcement’s handling of high-profile killings (“Alex Preddy and Renee Good in Minneapolis”), points out that many MAGA-aligned people now believe “you can’t get a fair jury trial in a blue city.” (22:06–22:10)
- Philosophical Divide: The Trumpist view, Andrew says, is “just the war of all against all. It's just us against them… the idea that [Trump] could do damage to the actual procedures by which we pursue justice in this country…doesn't even really compute for these people.” (22:54–23:37)
Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments
On institutional collapse:
“Good news. Another beneficial thing that was underpinning the whole system that we have sort of taken for granted our entire lives just vanish. There's no real obvious way to put it back.”
— Andrew Egger (12:00)
On jury courage:
“You have to be really bad at your job or the evidence you present and the charges you are levying have to be so unbelievably unpersuasive to fail like this. And it keeps happening. Over and over and over and over. That's an amazing testament to like actual regular people in America.”
— JVL (17:39)
On rule of law vs. Trumpism:
“This is a guy who's going to push every button on the dashboard and to punish his enemies every time he can. He's got a whole apparatus of mooks who are willing to help facilitate those.”
— Andrew Egger (05:37)
On MAGA and the jury system:
“Yeah, they probably should be indicted…”
— Speaker Mike Johnson (19:40)
On the Trumpist mentality:
“It’s just the war of all against all. It's just us against them… the idea that [Trump] could do damage to the actual procedures by which we pursue justice in this country…doesn't even really compute for these people.”
— Andrew Egger (22:54–23:37)
Important Segment Timestamps
- 01:29 — Episode content begins (JVL & Andrew Egger introduction)
- 02:53 — DOJ failed indictments and grand jury process
- 03:15 — Trump’s social media threats & Hegseth’s court-martial talk
- 04:34 — Lack of public alarm and complacency
- 05:47 — Trump’s exploitation of system weaknesses
- 08:14 — DOJ mass resignations, cited Nick Catoggio’s reporting
- 09:45 — Systemic competence breakdown and administrative chaos
- 13:01 — Career civil servants and loss of civic-minded talent
- 15:45 — JVL on the limits of legal reform
- 17:39 — The significance of grand juries refusing to indict
- 18:45 — Jury system vs. Trump’s influence tactics
- 19:25 — Mike Johnson’s “probably should be indicted” remark
- 22:06 — MAGA distrust of jury trials in “blue” cities
- 22:54 — Philosophical divide: the war on liberal-democratic systems
- 23:42 — Closing: "Good luck, America."
Tone & Final Thoughts
The conversation is laced with dark humor and persistent frustration at the systemic erosion facing American civil institutions. The hosts’ language is direct, unvarnished, and steeped in the tone of experienced political observers with little patience for “happy talk” but genuine appreciation for the pockets of resilience that exist. The underlying message is a call to vigilance and an acknowledgment of both the fragility and the endurance of American democracy as embodied in the jury system.
Listen if you want: to understand not just the latest legal-political crisis but its larger implications for the health of American self-government, and to hear how the “system” teeters while everyday citizens in the justice process occasionally—crucially—refuse to be cowed.