A Marine's Case Against MAGA (w/ Michael Wood) | Bulwark on Sunday

Summary

Podcast Summary: "A Marine's Case Against MAGA (w/ Michael Wood)" | Bulwark on Sunday

Episode Information

• Title: A Marine's Case Against MAGA
• Host: Bill Kristol, The Bulwark
• Guest: Michael Wood, Marine Corps Veteran and Businessman
• Release Date: May 25, 2025

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Introduction

In this compelling episode of Bulwark on Sunday, host Bill Kristol engages in a profound conversation with Michael Wood, a Marine Corps veteran, businessman, and occasional contributor to The Bulwark. Released on Memorial Day weekend, the discussion delves into Wood's military experiences, his disillusionment with the current Republican landscape, and his foray into politics as a never-Trump Republican running for Congress.

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Michael Wood's Background and Journey

[00:00] Bill Kristol:
Bill Kristol introduces Michael Wood, highlighting his background as a Marine Corps veteran who served two tours in Afghanistan. Wood hails from Midland, Texas, attended NYU, and subsequently joined the Marine Corps—a trajectory Kristol notes as "probably unusual."

[00:34] Michael Wood:
Wood reflects on his unexpected path from Midland to New York, attributing his decision to a desire to "see the world" and perhaps experience something "the opposite of Midland." He candidly discusses the challenges of making significant life decisions at 17 and the apprehensions his parents might have felt.

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Military Service and Experiences in Afghanistan

[02:26] Michael Wood:
Wood shares his motivations for joining the Marines, emphasizing a genuine desire to serve his country rather than seeking a military career. He candidly admits the simplicity of his reasoning, despite others perceiving it as "cheesy."

[03:40] Bill Kristol:
Kristol inquires about Wood's deployments to Afghanistan, prompting a detailed recounting of his service.

[03:46] Michael Wood:
Wood served in Hellman Province, specifically in towns like Marja and Treknawa. He discusses the challenges of the Afghan surge under President Obama, describing his deployments as "two very kinetic, bloody deployments." Reflecting on the prolonged conflict, Wood states, "It's the longest war in American history. And I'm proud of my service."

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Reflections on Injury and Sacrifice

[05:00] Bill Kristol:
Kristol brings up Wood's injuries, prompting Wood to disclose that he received two Purple Hearts—one from a grenade launch and another from a leg wound in February 2012. He humbly compares his injuries to those of his comrades, many of whom sustained more severe wounds or did not return.

[06:44] Michael Wood:
Wood offers poignant reflections on Memorial Day, describing it as a "sad day" that has grown more somber with age. He mourns the loss of young lives and the protracted nature of the Afghanistan war, expressing frustration over the lack of a definitive conclusion akin to the USS Missouri's end of WWII.

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Transition to Politics and the Impact of January 6th

[09:56] Bill Kristol:
Kristol transitions the conversation to Wood's political journey, particularly his decision to run for Congress following the events of January 6th, 2021.

[10:21] Michael Wood:
Wood recounts the profound impact of the January 6th Capitol attack, describing it as "one of the darkest days in American history." The event galvanized his decision to run in a special election following the passing of Congressman Ron Wright. Despite his efforts, Wood acknowledges his loss but expresses disillusionment with the Republican Party, noting, "the Republican Party, you know, just needs to lose at every level of government."

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Observations on the Republican Party and MAGA Influence

[12:49] Bill Kristol:
Kristol and Wood discuss the internal dynamics of the Republican Party, particularly the entrenched MAGA faction and its impact on traditional conservatism.

[16:22] Bill Kristol:
Reflecting on the aftermath of January 6th, Kristol expresses surprise at the swift solidification of Trump's influence within the party, lamenting missed opportunities for civic hygiene that could have curbed MAGA's rise.

[19:00] Michael Wood:
Wood elaborates on the missed chance to impeach Trump swiftly post-January 6th, suggesting it would have been a "very cleansing moment" for American politics.

[22:12] Michael Wood:
He further critiques the GOP Base, highlighting its radicalism and the self-perpetuating cycle of extreme politics fueled by local party dynamics and media consumption. Wood emphasizes the difficulty for moderate Republicans or everyday patriots to gain traction within the current party framework.

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Views on the Democratic Party and Future Outlook

[23:29] Michael Wood:
Wood pivots to discuss his evolving political stance, now identifying as a "moderate Democrat." He underscores the Democratic Party's alignment with traditional foreign policy values such as NATO, free trade, and rule of law, contrasting them with the current Republican trajectory.

[25:02] Bill Kristol:
Kristol concurs, noting signs of a potential revival of moderate and traditional Democratic values, especially with Ukraine's defense elevating the party's foreign policy credentials.

[26:44] Michael Wood:
Addressing Texas politics, Wood expresses concern over Ken Paxton, the Attorney General of Texas, whom he deems corrupt and a significant threat. He underscores the challenges Democrats face in Texas, highlighting the state's shifting demographics and the need for a fresh, inclusive approach to win statewide elections.

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Potential Future Political Moves

[27:18] Michael Wood:
Wood candidly assesses the political landscape in Texas, expressing skepticism about generic Democrats succeeding against entrenched Republicans like Paxton. He contemplates innovative public policy solutions to address critical issues such as healthcare, energy, and fiscal responsibility, aiming to build a broad coalition capable of challenging the status quo.

[29:42] Bill Kristol:
Kristol encourages Wood's potential political ambitions, suggesting that his unique background as a Marine and small business owner could resonate well with Texas voters seeking fresh perspectives.

[31:16] Michael Wood:
Wood emphasizes the disconnect between Democratic leadership and the party's "bread and butter" voters, advocating for a return to focusing on working-class and minority communities. He warns that without this shift, the party risks not only losing elections but also the very fabric of the republic.

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Closing Thoughts

[34:02] Bill Kristol:
Kristol reflects on the dire state of American politics, hoping that the republic remains intact despite the challenges posed by extreme partisanship and institutional failures.

[36:59] Michael Wood:
In a heartfelt conclusion, Wood thanks Kristol and expresses optimism about future chapters, regardless of his political decisions. The conversation wraps up with mutual respect and a reaffirmation of the importance of service and civic engagement.

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Notable Quotes

• Michael Wood [00:34]:
  "I really don't have a great answer for it other than it's kind of insane that we let, you know, 17 year olds make these big life decisions like that."

• Michael Wood [03:40]:
  "It's the longest war in American history. And I'm proud of my service."

• Michael Wood [06:44]:
  "It's heartbreaking to think about, you know, 19, 20 year olds who will forever stay 19 or 20 years old."

• Michael Wood [10:21]:
  "I thought there was a chance that I could sort of change the Republican Party into something that would, could be respectful again."

• Michael Wood [22:12]:
  "There is a chance for the Democratic Party to really build a coalition that could get 55, 60% of the country, have a Texas wing, have a Massachusetts wing, and really sort of govern."

• Michael Wood [31:15]:
  "If you’re just a normal suburban orthodontist of a conservative persuasion right now, like would you run for Congress?"

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Conclusion

In "A Marine's Case Against MAGA," Michael Wood provides a deeply personal and incisive critique of the current American political landscape. From his valorous military service to his disillusionment with the Republican Party's drift towards extremism, Wood's narrative underscores the urgent need for political renewal and the resurgence of moderate, inclusive values. His reflections serve as a poignant reminder of the sacrifices made by service members and the imperative to uphold democratic principles in tumultuous times.

For listeners seeking an insightful exploration of military service, political activism, and the complexities of modern American politics, this episode offers a rich and engaging discourse.

Transcript

[Bill Kristol]

Hi, it's Bill Kristenal. Welcome to Bulwark on Sunday. I'm very glad to be joined today, this Sunday of Memorial Day weekend by my friend Michael Wood, a Marine Corps veteran and served two tours in Afghanistan. We'll talk about that a bit. And he's been a friend of the Bulwark, a contributor, I think, occasionally to the Bulwark, isn't that right? Yeah. Very important pieces, pieces in the Bulwark and Businessman in Dallas, Texas. And so, Michael, thank you for taking an hour, half an hour out of Memorial Day weekend.

[Michael Wood]

No, thanks. Thanks for asking me. This is, this is going to be fun. Thank you.

[Bill Kristol]

I think it is. So we first met when you were we'll come back to this. We're running as a never Trump Republican for Congress at a special election. Maybe we met a little before that, but we got to know each other better in outside Dallas and I guess early 2021. But before that you grew up in Midland, Texas, went to nyu, I believe, and then straight from NYU went to to the Marine Corps. So that's a, I think Midland, Midland, nyu, Marine Corps is probably a unusual trajectory there in the 2000s. So say a word about how that all happen and then talk let's talk about more all day about your experiences, obviously, fighting.

[Michael Wood]

Yeah. Everybody is always sort of surprised when they find out that I was born and raised in Midland and then I went to school in New York and I joined the Marines. And I really don't have a great answer for it other than it's kind of insane that we let, you know, 17 year olds make these big life decisions like that. I've got a four daughters and one, the oldest one just finished her freshman year in high school. So we're starting to think about college and whatnot. And now that I'm, you know, 38 years old, I'm just thinking about how scared my parents must have been whenever they, they dropped me off in Manhattan whenever I was 18 years old. And I just can't imagine that.

[Bill Kristol]

So I, I really don't had some connection to New York, to nyu, to anything. No.

[Michael Wood]

I took one school trip to New York years before and then I just, I applied and I got in and we the money stuff worked out and I, I love Midland. I, I love that I was raised in Midland, but I think just 17 year old Michael just sort of wanted to see the world and sort of maybe try the opposite of Midland, which for better or worse, man, you know, New York certainly was.

[Bill Kristol]

Yeah. Washington Square, New York. Yeah. 8th Yes. 8th street in New York or 14th street or whatever it is, it probably is fairly opposite to Midland. What. So what had. You had. You always had ambitions or thoughts of joining the military or when. How did that decision come?

[Michael Wood]

No, it's. I. I think a lot of people who knew me whenever I was younger, they were kind of surprised by the. By the decision. But just as I, you know, learned more about politics and history and whatnot, throughout my, My. My first few years in New York, I just sort of started to think that, you know, my country was fighting two wars, and I just felt like. I just felt like I. I had to do it. For two years, I lived in the financial district in lower Manhattan, and so I was often, you know, walking by ground zero. And that's before it was rebuilt. It was just this big hole in the ground. And I don't know, I just. Whenever I was in ocs, whenever going through boot camp, they. They ask everybody why you joined, and there's no right answer to this, going to make fun of you, no matter what. And everybody has their reasons for joining. They're all legitimate. Maybe, you know, they want to get some direction in their life, whatever it was. But it really was. I wanted to serve my country. And I knew at the time how cheesy that sounded, and it sounded. It sounds cheesy right now, and they made fun of me for it, but it really was that I didn't want to be a general or anything like that. I kind of just wanted to do my four years and did a few deployments to Afghanistan and. And then I. I left active duty.

[Bill Kristol]

Yeah. Nothing. Nothing cheesy about it at all. So say a word about the deployments to Afghanistan. Where did you serve and what.

[Michael Wood]

So along with most Marines, including your son, I was in Hellman Province. The first deployment, I was in a town called Marja.

[Bill Kristol]

Yeah.

[Michael Wood]

And then the. The second deployment, I was in a place called Treknawa, which is sort of like a suburb of Marja. So we're in Hellman Province, which is kind of, you know, one of the heartlands for the Taliban. It's. It's where most of the Marines in Afghanistan were. And I was part of. You know, there was the Iraq War surge, which was very successful, and sort of the thinking was with the new President Obama, that there would be sort of an Afghan surge. And so my unit was part of that. So we. We didn't actually do the clearing. The people right before us did the. The clearing of the bad guys. But then we went in there and, you know, it was two very kinetic, bloody deployments. And I mean, we can talk about this, but it's, you know, my, my generation, we didn't get the USS Missouri. You know, the war didn't end like that. And it's just, it's the longest war in American history. And I'm proud of my service. I mean, we're all proud of our service. But yeah, the war certainly went, went sideways, especially in the last 10 years or so.

[Bill Kristol]

And you were wounded, but you were, you didn't talk about. But we didn't. When first, when I first. We first met. I don't recall there was a few to mention it. And you were, you were private about it. Not private, but you didn't want to, I guess soon to be trading off it. But you were pretty seriously wounded, I think.

[Michael Wood]

Yeah, so I got two Purple Hearts. The first one was, was less serious. It was like a launch grenade thing and I got shrapnel and then I went back to the fight. And then on the second deployment in 2000, 2012, February 2012, yeah, I got shot in the leg and had to get taken to Germany and then back to the States and went through the rehab thing. And I'm fine now. I'm, I'm fine now. But yeah, that's good. It's an awkward thing to bring up because, I mean, it is people. I mean, I don't know, I did get shot or whatever, but I mean, the first, my first deployment, my first platoon that I commanded, I mean, I mean, we left those guys left six limbs in Afghanistan, so we had two double amputees and two single amputees in addition to the other people who received gunshot wounds and obviously the, the people who didn't make it back. So my, my injuries were fairly minor compared to those.

[Bill Kristol]

No, well, that's. No, no, no, it's. You're, it's admirable that you serve, admirable that it's great that you recovered. And of course one does think about, especially Memorial Day weekend though, about those who had more life changing injuries, if I can put it that way. And then of course those who didn't come back. And what is it like? I mean, I'm curious about both the Afghanistan side of it and then the Memorial stay side of it. What does it, I mean, I didn't serve, so what does it, what does Memorial Day feel like, if I can put it that way? And what does the fact that Afghanistan didn't, as you say, went sort of sideways and then obviously, yeah, pretty terrible.

[Michael Wood]

Memorial Day it is it is about what you would expect. I mean, it's a sad day, somber day. It's kind of changed as I've gotten old and I've gotten through life, because whenever we fought the war, we were all so young. Looking back on it now, you don't really realize it at the time, but we're all so young. And then as we go through life and get older and have kids and see all the, the joys that go along with that, I'm just, it's, it's just heartbreaking to think about, you know, 19, 20 year olds who will forever stay 19 or 20 years old. And then on Afghanistan, it was. And it's, it's, it's difficult. I mean, you think about on the first deployment, whenever we, whenever I think there was a whole lot of optimism about the surge, that was one thing. And it felt like we really were making progress. And then for whatever reason, on the second deployment, I think everybody, I mean, obviously I didn't say this to my Marines out loud or anything like that, but I think everybody sort of knew, including the bad guys, including the Taliban, that we had one foot out the door. And so that was, I mean, that's. How do you tell a guy to go out there and potentially get shot or something worse than that? Whenever, sort of, everybody sort of knows that this isn't going to work out the way we thought it was going to work out before. I think a lot of people are, in terms of what it gave me. I mean, I'm. If I. These aren't just pieces on a chessboard, you know, asking people to die or get hurt for something that everybody knows isn't going to work out. I think that really affected me and affected how I see foreign policy and military policy. But it's tough. I mean, like I said, we didn't get a USS Missouri. And I try not to dwell on it too much, but I do think that a lot of people in my generation, they, they did struggle with it because it, you can't blame them for asking, what was it all for.

[Bill Kristol]

No, totally. And I mean, obviously it's not the first time in American history. We had Korea, we had.

[Michael Wood]

Yeah. And the USS Missouri thing is very much the exception. Most.

[Bill Kristol]

Yeah, Vietnam, obviously a very, very big way, but. No, but it's a real thing. And the good news, I suppose, is unlike what I was, I was just a tiny bit too young for Vietnam, but I was in the lottery for one year and then Nixon was drawing down, so nobody went, you know, but, you know, those Vets were not greeted, at least in your generation.

[Michael Wood]

Right.

[Bill Kristol]

Country was, I think, properly grateful and respectful.

[Michael Wood]

Yeah, absolutely.

[Bill Kristol]

And it's not the case. When I was young.

[Michael Wood]

Yeah. And I mean, you just heard these horror stories about the guys from Vietnam who were spit on or called baby killers. They were, whenever they got to San Diego or wherever, they were told not to wear their uniform.

[Bill Kristol]

It's not amazing. Yeah.

[Michael Wood]

It's just, I can't even wrap my head around that. So, yes, I will say that. Yeah, that's every, Everybody's been great. Everybody who disagrees with the wars has always been very respectful and none of. Yeah, it's been great.

[Bill Kristol]

That's good. Okay. Well, that's something. And so you were interested anyway, I think, in obviously in politics and foreign policy, maybe particularly, but public policy in general. You went back to Texas and started a family and started a business, and it's been pretty successful, I think. So that's good. Congratulations on that. But you, you, the political bug was there, I gather, and you, you ran for Congress and it was 2021. Right.

[Michael Wood]

It was, it was. I always sort of had a vague notion in my head that I'd run for office one day, but it really was January 6th that really upset me. I, I, Everybody should have been listening to you at that time. You were warning us that this, this could have turned into something that was going to turn into something dangerous. But I was just sort of, the election was over. I was halfway paying attention to it. Then I actually came home for lunch for some reason and turned on the TV and went out of the room. And when I came back in, people were attacking the Capitol. And I just remember just shaking with anger, and I'm still upset. I mean, it seems like people want us to move on beyond. I'm never gonna get over it. That was one of the darkest days in American history. And so that happened. And then there was a congressman who died, Ron Wright. And so there was a special election. And it's crazy to think about.

[Bill Kristol]

This is in the Dallas suburbs, sort of. That's where you.

[Michael Wood]

Dallas Fort Worth area, Arlington area congressman passed away. So there's going to be a special election. It's crazy to think about now after we've been through these past four years, but in February of 2021, it really was a jump ball whether or not Trump would stay the leader of the party. I mean, maybe it was always foreordained, but we didn't, it didn't completely seem.

[Bill Kristol]

Like a jump ball.

[Michael Wood]

Yeah, yeah. And it kind of seemed like if somebody just sort of pushed on it a little bit, I still had this naive view that there were a majority of Republicans who were ready to move on past this guy. So there was a special election. Very much a goat rodeo. They're like 30 people on the ballot. It's a. The way they do special elections here is there's a non partisan primary, then the top two go off. So I was very upset about January 6th. I thought there was a chance that I could sort of change the Republican Party into something that would, could be respectful again. So I ran. I very much lost, which is fine. And then, you know, over the course of 2021 and following years, it just dawned on me that the Republican Party, you know, just needs to lose at every level of government. It's not going to go back to being something respectable probably for the, for the next few decades. And then also, you know, once you take off the GOP goggles, you probably know what I'm talking about. You do start to maybe see public policy certain things differently. I haven't gone, you know, completely. It was all a lie or completely. I was a moderate Republican. Now I guess I'm a moderate Democrat. But that's sort of been where I've been for the past four years.

[Bill Kristol]

That's a good formulation about taking off the goggles because I've had that experience. It's hard to explain to people sometimes you're not just switching because you're in a different team, sort of. I mean, maybe some people could psychologically say that's really what's about driving it, but you feel like you just see things, you know, you do necessarily. Everyone has blinkers, obviously. And you and you maybe what hopes for. It's not just trading new blinkers for old ones, but it is. Yeah. It's an interesting phenomenon. Tell me a bit about. I want to get to your current view, your views on foreign policy and your current sort of political stance. But. And possible possibly what you might do but say a word about just what the experience of running for office was like. I mean, you hadn't done it before. Right. Even at a.

[Michael Wood]

Right, yeah, it was state level. So it was quite the experience. It was. First of all, it was a weird election because it was a special election. So I wasn't competing for attention with 434 other candidates. It was pretty much the only game.

[Bill Kristol]

Or governors or senators in your own state or something.

[Michael Wood]

Yeah, right, right. And I mean, I didn't grow up in a log cabin or anything like that, but I don't come from a whole lot of money. I certainly don't come from a political family. So I really did just start off by calling, I think literally almost everybody I've ever met, like I remember, and it was such a demeaning experience. But it's what you got to do when you run for office. I remember calling, you know, elementary school soccer coaches that I had, or guys who led my Boy Scout troop and just asking them for money, begging them for money. And then we did get some, some of that money came in and then I did get to sort of get TV a little bit more and some more attention. And then we really sort of took off. It was, it was very much a learning experience on, on the money side, on the how to speak on TV side. The thing that was really eye opening to me, and I couldn't admit it at the time, was that a lot of these local Republican groups or conservative groups, and God bless them, I'm sure they're great people personally. But it really was much crazier than I expected. You know, I'm a young father, I've got a growing family, a business. I didn't really have a chance to go to all these local party meetings and whatnot, but when I was running for office, I very much did. And granted, everybody was always. Nobody spat on me for the most part. People were polite and whatnot. But I just remember sitting in these rooms saying like, that's when it really started to dawn on me that my sort of Romney part of the party was not the dominant part of the party, if now, if it ever really was, you know, and that's, you know, I could see it coming with the vaccine stuff. Like, I just thought that we would get this miracle COVID vaccine and everybody would jump on top. Why would you not jump on top of it? This is the, the answer that nobody thought we would get to this horrible pandemic that we, that we were going through. And then I could see just a few people in these meetings saying crazy things about the vaccine. And then the incentive, as I think Thomas Massie said, is to be the craziest SOB in the room if you want to get elected Congress, if you want to be a precinct chair, if you want to be, have some sort of position in the local party. And so I just saw that on the vaccine spread and then, you know, a few months later, it spread on being pro Russia and anti Ukraine. So I mean, in terms of our conversation here, running for, I mean, it really did the sort of the radicalism of the GOP Base, which maybe I should have seen before really came home to me during that race.

[Bill Kristol]

No, that's very interesting. And I think, I mean I, I think you people now take it for granted that that was how it had to be. But I do think when you, I mean, certainly after January 6th, a lot of us thought, okay, maybe this is kind of proves on that people, whatever he proves he shouldn't be, shouldn't have been president. Whatever proves about what it should have been, it proves he shouldn't be president again. And therefore the party, once it crosses that bridge, could also cross some other bridges in terms of some of the MAGA appeals and the nativism and the bigotry and sort of be gradually leave it behind. It's not going to be quite the same. And maybe there was always more of it than we thought, as you sort of suggested and all that. But I don't think that was an unreasonable thing to think or hope at least in January, February of 2021. When was you announced in what it was Pretty soon it was right after January 6th. People do forget how much also people just thought, I mean, how big a deal that was. Right. I mean, and then.

[Michael Wood]

Right. I really started to plan on it mid February and then I think the official Launch date was March 1st and then May 1st.

[Bill Kristol]

May 1st. Yeah. So it was really in that window when and as you say the COVID I mean Trump had been irresponsible by Covid, but he also was sort of half taking credit for as he was entitled to, to some degree for operation warp speed and for the vaccine. And it wasn't clear that, you know, everyone said, okay, Covid was crazy and Trump, that was a weird moment and Democratic primary was kind of crazy and you know, everything. But it is, I think it's, I do think historians will look back at that 2021 window really for January 6th itself to the week later when much to my astonishment, that's much my astonishment, but I mean much to the astonishment of Mike Gallagher, whom I spoke to the day after, was very eloquent on the day of the, of the congressman from Wisconsin on the day of the take the attack on the Capitol, I remember thinking, well, he'll vote for impeachment. There'll be 50, maybe there won't be 150 votes, but there should be 50, 70 votes among the 200 plus House Republicans for impeachment and that people like Gallagher would do the right thing, so to speak, and that's pick on him. But I respected him and I remember talking to Kinzinger to Adam, who I know helped you on your campaign and you got to know quite well. And Liz, I think JD that weekend, and Adam was saying, I don't know, I think we may be down to 20 votes. I mean, I couldn't believe it, actually. And then I remember talking to him, maybe it was Monday and it was like, I don't know, maybe it's a dozen, you know, and I mean, that was the beginning of the collapse. And then there are other moments, right? McConnell not, you know, not deciding to. Deciding not to try to get 67 votes in the Senate and so forth.

[Michael Wood]

So Kevin McCarthy going to all of that notes. I mean, like, if, if we had a functioning Congress and really a functioning republic, then, you know, Congress would have come back after the attack, they would have certified the election, they would have gotten some sleep, I guess. And then, you know, by the clo, by noon or the close of business the next day, he should have been impeached. And then, you know, like 12 hours later, the trial should have been concluded and he should have been removed from office and, and banned from ever holding office again. And then we would be in a much healthier place.

[Bill Kristol]

Can you imagine that? That's right. I mean, Mike Pence becomes president for 10 days and whatever. The country obviously doesn't change any policies, but. Or even the cabinet members or anything. Nor should it, I suppose, in 10 days. But it would have been a very cleansing moment. Right. Which we did not have.

[Michael Wood]

Yeah, I think Kevin Williamson once called. It would have been a great moment of civic hygiene, but we missed that. And again, I'm sure a whole lot of people who are sort of left to center who might be watching this are probably just screaming at their computers or screaming at their, their phones right now and saying, like, didn't you guys understand this from the beginning? And, you know, maybe, maybe we should have. But I, I really didn't think that as I texted you yesterday, I didn't think that we were just Birchers all the way down or George Wallace's all the way down. But I mean, maybe, maybe it was pretty close to that.

[Bill Kristol]

Yeah. Or the, I guess the in between position, the one I would take as someone who was, you know, never Trump from the beginnings on that part. I think I feel like I was right, was that whatever the party was in 2015, and it was of course a mix of things and Tea Party and, you know, butchers and Romney Republicans and Paul Ryan Republicans or whatever, whatever it was the one reason people like me were so against Trump, maybe we didn't do a good job of explaining this at the time. I don't know was we had an instinct of what, five, four years, five years of Trump as head of the party or certainly as president. That was really the key obviously would do to the party due to the country too, for that matter. We had an instinct that this was not just if we thought it was a demagogue who would do some damage for four years, we would have still opposed him, but we would have been more relaxed as it were. Not relaxed but, you know, more we wouldn't have been quite as worked up about the incredible danger that he posed. And then as he started to govern in the way he did, he was constrained by the guardrails in the first term, which he wasn't in the second isn't in the second and that we should get to that now. But I mean, anyway, I'll just say all I'm saying is I think there's a middle ground between it was always Trump isn't beneath the surface, you know, 80% and everything was great before then. And the middle ground is probably there were bad elements. There was pat Buchanan getting 25% of the vote. There was Ron Paul. There's plenty of kookiness, conspiracism in the conservative movement. But it's one thing if it's a 20, 25%, it's another thing if it elects, nominates a presidential candidate, elects that person present that person, feeds it and fosters it for four years as president of the United States. And that's a very big deal. Right. And then it turned out it was much then some of us who hoped a little bit, well maybe it recedes after January 6th. There it turned out he really had stoked fires that weren't going to be easy to put out. Right.

[Michael Wood]

Yeah. And there are a lot of things going on. I mean, Sarah Longwell speaks often about the was it the Republican triangle of zoom, the conservative doom between elected officials and voters and then the media they all consume and how they sort of feed off each other. So that's it's very much a dynamic. There's also, I mean if you're just like a normal suburban orthodontist of a conservative persuasion right now, like would you run for Congress? Like would you if you're just a normal, good patriotic person, would you run for state senate? Like there's a self selection going on where the only people who are really jumping into go GOP politics right now are the worst people or crazy people. And yeah, you're absolutely right. It's a dynamic thing. It's feeding on itself. And I don't know how this ends. I hope it ends before our Republicans.

[Bill Kristol]

Yeah, well, someone like you isn't. I. I believe. Now you said in passing, you consider yourself kind of a moderate Democrat. You and I talked a lot about, I don't know, Truman and Harry Truman and Scoop Jackson and Hubert Humphrey and that tradition. And I think we've seen some encouraging signs of it's not being revival really, I'd say in the Democratic Party or certainly it was somewhat beneath the surface for a while there, but sort of more Ukraine probably helped honestly bring it front and center to some degree.

[Michael Wood]

Yeah, I think there's a lot going on right now. I mean, if you, if you believe in the rule of law, if you believe in the peaceful transfer of power, if you believe in free trade, if you believe in NATO, if you believe in vaccines, the Constitution, if you're concerned about the deficit, if you're concerned about the debt, I mean, your natural home right now in 2025 needs to be.

[Bill Kristol]

The Democratic Party and the foreign policy side. Right, the U.S. yeah.

[Michael Wood]

I mean, if you, if you want to stand up to Russian aggression, the only party doing that is the party of Truman, the party of jfk. So, you know, I, I have been sort of on a journey. I do think that there's a chance right now, especially with all this sort of Ezra Klein, Derek Thompson abundance agenda talk going on right now, to sort of build something new, to build truly like a. Everybody just wants to get right now a 48% coalition and then hope that the news cycle goes their way and they can sort of sneak into office. I think there's a chance for the Democratic Party, a party which never misses a chance to miss a chance, but there's a chance for the Democratic Party to really build a coalition that could get 55, 60% of the country, have a Texas wing, have a Massachusetts wing, and really sort of govern and sort of break through some of these log jams that we've had for the past quarter century. And sometimes. So, yeah, we can talk about that more. That's sort of where my mind is right now.

[Bill Kristol]

No, that's very well said. And I think it's a longer conversation, honestly, but an important one and one that you need to be a part of. I know people. So let's talk about you. I mean, I know you're busy running a business and that's very time consuming. And four girls, I can only imagine. You know, I'm amazed you could get 40 minutes here on a Sunday between.

[Michael Wood]

We'Re in between soccer games right now.

[Bill Kristol]

I was about to say, I mean, yeah, the, the, especially in Texas, they're big distances. Right here in Northern Virginia, it's a little more, I mean, they're, our grandchildren are up in wherever, you know, parts of Maryland and so forth, but it's there. It must be crazy, the driving and stuff like that.

[Michael Wood]

It is, I will say. I, I was talking about this conversation with one of the parents at the first game today, and they said, why are you doing a podcast with the guy from City Slickers?

[Bill Kristol]

Oh, that's good. Well, I used to get that a lot more. You know, I, I, that was a, it used to be a standard joke I would make in speeches that, I'm sorry that you expected the other Billy Crystal, you know. And of course it was not such a great joke to make because like 20, depending on what kind of corporate conference or whatever I was, had been engaged to speak at, you know, some of them weren't for that political people. They were just whatever, you know, it's like city banks, you know, you know, whatever salesman. I mean, whatever. Fine, nice people, you know what I mean? But they were there for business conference, for golf, basically. And then there was some speaker that the corporation felt they should have someone do an update on Washington. But people didn't look very closely at the schedule or the title, you know, Update on Washington. They looked at the name and they didn't look at the spelling very closely. And so I do, I do think I stopped making that joke when I realized that 25% of the audience was, was actually disappointed that it wasn't Billy Crystal. So I was like too close to home, you know. Anyway, so I know people have approached you about running as a Democrat, as a moderate Democrat in Texas. Say a word about what's possible there.

[Michael Wood]

Yeah, I mean, that's, it's a big lift. There is a lot going on in my, in my life right now. And I mean, running for office is, it's difficult, especially if you're sort of running as a, a former Republican or a centrist Democrat or a moderate Democrat. Abundance Democrat, whatever the motto is going to be. I'm, I'm really worried about Ken Paxton being United States Senator. I think, I think he's going to beat Cornyn in the Republican primary.

[Bill Kristol]

Say a word about Ken Paxton for our non Texas viewers here.

[Michael Wood]

Ken Paxton is the Attorney General of Texas. Really. He's the Attorney General for Nate Paul, which is a real estate developer. He was doing favors for in Austin, he wrote a horrible brief saying that Texas, I mean completely illegal brief saying that Texas could invalidate other states electoral votes in 2020. Whenever it comes to January 6th and all the stop the steel BS, Trump is the number one bad guy. I think there's a case to be made that Ken Paxton is the number two bad guy. He's just, he was, it was impeached.

[Bill Kristol]

By the Texas House, he was impeached.

[Michael Wood]

By the Republican Texas House. He or corruption voided conviction. He's very much pot bought and paid for by some of the worst people in Texas, some, I mean straight up religious extremists in, in West Texas. And I think he's going to beat John Cornyn, long serving United States Senator. I think he's going to beat him like a drum in the primary. I wouldn't be surprised if Cornyn doesn't even make it to primary day. So as of right now, Ken Paxton is going to keep being corrupt and horrible and he's just going to stumble himself into the United States Senate. So what I'm trying to figure out right now is I don't think a generic Democrat can win Texas right now. I mean, Colin Allred lost by nine points. I think ran a very lackluster campaign and I think just the, the type of Connecticut or the type of Democrat that gets nominated in Connecticut or Massachusetts is going to lose by 10 points down here. So I'm trying to figure out if I can be helpful in any way in sort of trying to stop Ken Paxton from becoming United States Senator. And that's very much the negative case. And I do think that this is, doesn't have to just be bloodless triangulation. I think that there is a chance to have some creative public policy, things that can get revenues and expenses for the government somewhat in line, that can solve healthcare going forward, do things with energy, nuclear energy, all that. Anyway, so that's sort of where my head is at right now. But I mean Texas, it's got 31 million people, it's bigger than France and I've never won an election in my life. So I'm trying to figure that out. I will say right now Democrats are much more open to sort of a moderate message and just win and sort of stop these maniacs message than they've ever been in my life, including in Texas.

[Bill Kristol]

Yeah, well, it's so important to check Trump in the second, in his last two years of his first of this, his second term. Leaving aside everything else positive one can do as a senator and everything Else one has to, has to do as a senator that I, I do think there's a. I don't know. What have you found? I know some people have approached you. I know you've had some conversations. You find a little more willingness to be open to someone like you as a Democratic nominee for Senate.

[Michael Wood]

Very, very much so. And you also have to keep in mind that the Texas Democratic Party sort of has three different groups, roughly speaking, and sort of you have Hispanic conservatives mainly in the, I mean, all over the state, but especially in the south and the west of the state. You have moderate black voters in the big cities, Dallas, Houston, and then you have progressives, people who are much more left wing in places like Austin and San Antonio. And for all this party switch talk and whatnot. I mean, I really do think that the median Texas Democrat is like a Hispanic Catholic mechanic in Brownsville who never went to college. Nobody in his family ever went to college. And also, you know, a black woman in Houston who goes to church. I really do think that's where the, the center of the party is. And I think that's what the candidate, the nominee has to speak to if they're going to defeat Ken Paxton, if they're gonna sort of win statewide. Democrats haven't won statewide in Texas since 1994, and I was 8 years old. They haven't won a Senate race down here since 1988, I'm pretty sure, which is Lloyd Benson.

[Bill Kristol]

Yeah.

[Michael Wood]

So they can keep trying. I, I say this out of love. They can keep trying the things they've tried, you know, since 1994, and they're gonna keep losing. And this time one of the worst people in the country is going to become a United States senator. So they, they really need to start thinking differently.

[Bill Kristol]

And I'm struck just getting to, haven't gotten to know you over the last few years that I mean both your business experience, which is not a. I don't mean to say this in a way that when you take offensive, but it's not a flashy high tech, you know, Austin business and, and your experience, obviously commanding Marines and serving with Marines. I do think it's given you much more of a feel, if I could put it that way, for these. What you're describing is the average voters and the average Democratic voters and a lot of, a lot of other friends of mine who are very fine people. I put myself in this category. I just, it's not the world I'm, I live in as much, you know.

[Michael Wood]

No, I mean the, the Democratic Party really is in a bad spot right now, which is bad because they're the only institution, I mean, correct me if I'm wrong, maybe the military also, but I think they're the only institution that's consistently stood up to MAGA and stood up to Trump this, this, you know, Democratic Party. And they're in a bad spot right now and that's bad for the country. Democrats, I mean, they, the people who make the calls for the Democratic Party right now all over the country, they very much are college educated professionals and God bless them, I mean, but they went, they were the smartest kid in class in high school and they went to good colleges and they're the smartest kid in class. And cotton, then they went to law school, then they went into, into politics and they, I mean, you're right. I run a truck repair company, a fleet maintenance company. And it's really no surprise that whenever a lot of the people who make the calls for the party, the activists, the party party leaders, the elected officials, that they've lost track with people who should be the bread and butter of the Democratic Party. I mean, even at my most Republican, I understood that the best tradition of the Democratic Party was looking out for working people, working out for people who didn't go to college and working out and looking out for minorities, including racial minorities. And the Democratic Party right now is losing ground with both of those. And they need to change, especially in Texas. I mean, Texas Democrats used to get most of their votes or a good hunk of their votes from South Texas. And if you just look at what's happened in South Texas, I mean, it's just getting redder and redder and redder. Whenever the Democrats are going up against a game show host who tried to coup, they've, they've lost, they've lost touch. And something's, something's got to change or else not only will Kim Paxton get elected, but I really think we're going to lose our republic if, I mean, if we haven't lost it already.

[Bill Kristol]

Yeah, I hope we haven't lost it already. And yeah, I really. You should make your own decision, obviously. But it would be exciting if you, if you chose to ran and run. I know a lot of people are hoping you will. It's a heck of a lift though, Texas, obviously, in terms of just my raising money and the publicity, you know, getting it well known enough. But on the other hand, I, I should think that in a general election, I think actually there'll be a massive amount of support and especially if it's you against Paxton winning a primary? You never know. But you know what I do think people, my sense from a little bit of traveling around is people are very eager for a fresh face and much more open minded to an ex Republican military guy who's a small business owner than they would have been perhaps, you know, 10 years ago. Right.

[Michael Wood]

I mean I, I hope, I hope so. And if I make this decision, I mean politics is very much a game of addition and I mean there are some people who look at politics and they just want to, they sort of look at it as church and they just want to keep it small and pure. But politics is about gaining and wielding power and you're going to have to build these coalitions and this is a very dangerous time in American history. I mean we've got to build as again Sarah Longwell says, the pro democracy coalition. So we, we need some, some new fresh thinking. Things are bad right now. They lost again to a game show host who tried a coup. They lost every single swing state and the popular vote. So yeah, something's got to change with the Democratic Party.

[Bill Kristol]

Well, obviously you'll make this decision. We'll be in touch. Either way, you're such a wonderful member of the Bulwark family and do things even if you don't mind, you could do good obviously very important things for the country. But I, it's a exciting moment and opportunity I should think in you know, in Texas that you may choose to, to try to seize and that will be, that will be exciting for all of us. So good luck on that, good luck on the soccer games this afternoon. And is it just soccer? It's a multi sports, I mean four kids. You probably have like three different sports to go to.

[Michael Wood]

I feel like, well it's, we're all over the place. We have the championship soccer game this, this afternoon and then the other two, two of them are with their grandparents and then one of them's up in Missouri with my wife at a graduation. It's always great.

[Bill Kristol]

It's fun being a young parent and it's exciting. It only it happens once. You should enjoy it and, but I, and if you run for office that's a burden too. But on the other hand, I don't know, maybe it'll be exciting and for the kids and, and an education for them honestly watching their father do this. So anyway, good luck with whatever.

[Michael Wood]

On the phone with my wife I'll.

[Bill Kristol]

I'll be happy to chat with her and tell her, tell then, then she'll say Bill, you didn't really ever run for run, did you? So maybe I'm not. Maybe better to get Adam Kinzinger or Liz Cheney on the phone with your wife. Right. Michael, thanks so much for for taking 40 minutes out of your Sunday on this busy weekend and such a cliche. But thank you for your service and look forward to the next the Next chapter. So thanks so much.

[Michael Wood]

All right. Thanks, Bill. This is fun.

[Bill Kristol]

And thank you all for joining us on the Bulwark on Sunday.