Podcast Summary: Bulwark Takes – "America’s Lawless Wars—From Chicago to Caracas (w/ Ryan Goodman)"
Date: October 5, 2025
Host: Bill Kristol
Guest: Ryan Goodman, NYU Law Professor, co-editor at Just Security

Episode Overview

In this in-depth conversation, Bill Kristol speaks with legal scholar Ryan Goodman about the unprecedented expansion of presidential powers in the U.S., focusing on the blurred lines between domestic and foreign policy under President Trump. They analyze how recent executive actions—particularly the use of force both within American cities and abroad in the Caribbean—break with legal tradition, strain constitutional boundaries, and test the resilience of the judiciary and other checks on executive authority.

Key Discussion Points

1. Commander-in-Chief Powers: From Domestic Deployment to Caribbean Warfare

• Domestic Expansion:
  • Recent claims by President Trump to use the National Guard and even federal troops in U.S. cities, including Portland and Chicago, are explored as a disturbing escalation. Goodman highlights the President’s rhetoric that frames domestic opposition as "the enemy within," now openly targeting left-wing protesters and blurring the lines between civil unrest and national security threats.
  • Kristol asks, “Where are we in terms of the President's ability to federalize National Guards, to send federal troops to places in the US?” (01:09)
  • Goodman: “We have the operations on the high seas ... and then operations inside the United States, which now according to the President are the enemy within ... these things are joined together ... much more threatening in terms of the overuse of presidential powers...” (01:54)

2. The National Security Presidential Memorandum (NSPM-7)

• Broad Scope & Lack of Checks:
  • Goodman dissects NSPM-7, issued recently, which redefines domestic threats through a national security framework, allowing far-reaching surveillance and investigation.
  • Notably, the memorandum omits standard civil liberties protections—such as prohibitions against targeting individuals for First Amendment activity—and instead expands targets to include “anti-Americanism, extremism on migration, race, and gender, and hostility toward those who hold traditional American values” (07:02).
  • Goodman warns: “It is just extraordinary in its target set ... The indicators ... are things like ‘anti-Americanism’, extremism on migration, race and gender, and hostility towards those who hold traditional American values ... usually with these kinds of authorities, there is strong language to say ... do not target people on the basis of their First Amendment rights ... that's missing from this memorandum.” (07:02–11:31)

3. Domestic Terrorism Designations and Legal Overreach

• Executive Overstep:
  • The new approach tries to create a mechanism for designating domestic groups (e.g., Antifa) as terrorist organizations—a power never granted by Congress out of concern for civil liberties.
  • Goodman points out: “That is trying to rule in a certain sense by executive decree where Congress has sought fit never to create a domestic terrorist designation authority.” (11:31)

4. Aggressive Use of Immigration Enforcement and Law Enforcement Agencies

• From Immigration to Militarization:
  • ICE and even the IRS are invoked under the new authorities, broadening the focus from foreigners to explicitly targeting U.S. citizens.
  • Paramilitary raids, as in the Chicago operation by Border Patrol with Black Hawk helicopters, are indicative of a “deliberate strategy” rather than mere overzealous enforcement (14:15–16:04).
  • Goodman: “This is definitely turning the power of the government and law enforcement agencies towards American citizens... That, I think, is the road that we appear to be going down.” (14:15)

5. Caribbean Strikes: ‘War’ on Cartels and Constitutional Crisis

• Precedent-Free Use of Lethal Force:
  • The discussion turns to the revelation, via leaked Congressional notification, that the administration claims the right to kill alleged drug cartel members at will on the high seas, as “unlawful combatants.”
  • The legal community, across ideological lines, rejects the administration’s novel legal justification. Goodman cites experts: “John Bellinger ... said it's making a mockery of international legal terms ... John Yoo ... writes ... this is not war ... Marty Lederman ... said basically this amounts to ... murder.” (20:32–25:35)
  • The danger: there is no geographic or citizenship limit. This logic could authorize killings even inside the U.S.
  • Kristol: “We’re fighting a war that the President has unilaterally declared without any congressional authorization ... blowing up people who may not even be combatants in this war.” (25:35)

6. Administrative and Institutional Resistance

• Pushback and Resignation:
  • Goodman describes resistance at the U.S. Attorneys' level—a few instances of resignations and whistleblowing in response to perceived illegal or vindictive orders (30:52).
  • Less transparency is observed in DOD and DOJ at higher levels regarding the legal rationale for these actions, raising worries about the lawyers being excluded or overruled.

7. Role of the Courts and Congress

• Judicial Checks:
  • District courts have pushed back against executive overreach, e.g., Judge Breyer in California enforcing the Posse Comitatus Act and Judge Immergat (a Trump appointee) in Portland holding that martial law claims were without foundation (35:52).
  • However, courts have traditionally deferred more to the executive on military actions overseas, complicating legal challenges to Caribbean operations.
  • Congressional approval is constitutionally required for war; the War Powers Act clock is now ticking, with a decisive moment coming in early November (35:52–39:47).

8. What Happens Next? Inflection Points

• Upcoming Tests:
  • Key inflection points will come if military action expands—such as opening a new war front in Venezuela—or if Congress takes legislative action to limit operations (44:18).
  • Goodman: “This is a new forever war potentially ... This has not historically been a partisan issue ... that is an inflection point in terms of the direction that it goes to see where that happens.” (44:18)
  • Supreme Court intervention could come rapidly as the Solicitor General escalates/emergency dockets are pursued (46:15).

Notable Quotes and Moments

• On Judicial Pushback:
  “The pushback, just for folks understanding, is the factual predicate for all of this ... The factual inquiry shows that these claims of a war zone in Portland are just fabricated, essentially.”
  — Ryan Goodman (03:29)

• On the White House’s Legal Arguments:
  “National security lawyers across the country basically think this is bunk. Like, there's no legal justification for it. This is using words that sound in law, but they're not anything about what those legal terms or concepts are meant for.”
  — Ryan Goodman (23:18)

• On the Danger of Precedent:
  “There’s no geographic limit to the authority. There’s no citizenship limit ... if these were citizens on the high seas or inside the United States, there's no reason, according to this legal framework, that it wouldn't apply.”
  — Ryan Goodman (27:21)

• On Growing Concern:
  “These statements, these positions by the executive, are so out of whack with both the facts ... and the law ... I think courts might not strictly bind themselves by the past precedents because we're really in a very different moment.”
  — Ryan Goodman (43:42)

Timestamps of Key Segments

• Opening and Overview – 00:00–02:46
• President’s Use of Commander-in-Chief Powers – 02:46–07:02
• Dissecting NSPM-7 and Targeting Speech/Protest – 07:02–11:31
• Terrorist Designations, ICE, and Domestic Policing – 11:31–18:35
• From Immigrants to Citizens: Broadening Enforcement – 18:35–20:20
• Caribbean Boat Strikes & The Legal "War" on Cartels – 20:32–28:35
• Lack of Legal Safeguards, Administrative Response – 28:35–34:26
• Role of the Courts and Congress – 34:26–43:42
• Upcoming Inflection Points & What To Watch – 43:42–47:25

Conclusion

This episode lays out in stark terms the erosion of constitutional and judicial guardrails faced by America today, underlined by expanded executive power justified by re-interpreted national security needs. From Chicago’s militarized streets to lethal force in the Caribbean—without meaningful congressional or judicial checks—the podcast warns of a new and alarming precedent. Both Kristol and Goodman underscore the need for vigilance among judges, lawmakers, and career officials, with the next few months set to determine whether America's institutions can adapt and respond to such extraordinary challenges to established legal norms.