← Bulwark Takes
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- [00:01]
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- [00:30]
Kathryn Rampel
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- [00:32]
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- [01:00]
Kathryn Rampel
Hi, everyone. I'm Kathryn Rampel, the economics editor at the Bulwark. We are here today to talk about the latest developments in the Epstein case. Former Attorney General Pam Bondi spoke behind closed doors on Capitol Hill today. And we are joined by one of the survivors of Jeffrey Epstein and Ghislaine Maxwell's crimes, Annie Farmer, who can talk with us today a little bit about what we did or did not learn that was new today from Bondi's testimony. So, Annie, thank you so much for joining me. Why don't you start by just telling our audience a little bit about your involvement in the broader advocacy issue here on behalf of sexual assault survivors.
- [01:43]
Annie Farmer
Yeah. Thank you so much, Katherine, for having me. So, you know, my involvement in this case started in 1996. I was 16 years old when I met Epstein and Maxwell. Um, and what happened to me with them was actually reported that same year in 1996 to the FBI by my sister, Maria Farmer. And so, you know, she really has been the Epstein case whistleblower. And despite the fact that she shared everything she knew at that time, including, you know, people involved and what she had seen and what had happened to her as a victim and what she believed had happened to me, as we all know now, so little happened. So it was then, I guess, you know, 2006, that I was finally interviewed by the FBI. The sweetheart deal happens. There's really no follow up of any kind. And it wasn't until 2019 when he was arrested that I spoke out publicly. And, you know, basically just by attending a bail hearing for him without really much thought about, you know, what that would mean. I guess I Just wanted to, to make sure that the survivors that were, you know, who were the victims of the crimes that were being prosecuted had a sense of support. So I went to the hearing in New York and then unexpectedly had the chance to speak. And then from there it's been, you know, just more speaking out about this case. And I think because this case has gotten so much attention, it has connected me with other survivors and helped me understand more the, you know, systemic issues in our legal system and our justice system around these types of cases. I think there's some things about this that are unusual, but really there's also so many things about the Epstein case that are unfortunately common. And so, yeah, it's been an honor to do more advocacy work and speak about these things.
- [03:36]
Kathryn Rampel
Well, thank you. I know that all of the things that we're going to talk about today and that you talk about on a day to day basis are probably not easy to discuss in public. I mean, these are intimate, horrible things. And so I'm grateful for your willingness to speak on behalf of those, those who understandably may be reluctant to do so. So, you know, with that sort of laying the groundwork, why don't we talk a little bit about what your hopes or expectations were today going into this much promoted vamped testimony, if you will, from the former AG Pam Bondi. What were you expecting to happen?
- [04:20]
Annie Farmer
Yeah, I think it's actually interesting because hopes and expectations are slightly different. Right. My hope was that perhaps we would finally hear Pam Bondi taking some ownership over mistakes that were made by her department under her leadership. And when we say mistakes, we're talking about things like huge errors in the redaction process. The law was actually really specific in how it spelled out what was allowed to be redacted, what was mandated to be redacted, and what should not be redacted. And so, you know, when we, when we work so hard to get that passed, you know, we really actually had a sense of confidence that that would be followed. Unfortunately, what we saw with initially with the first release and then with later releases was that there were errors on both sides. There was an over redaction of individuals that were being accused of crimes or being, you know, discussed by victims as potential perpetrators. And then there were just full lists of names of like underage victims, you know, one, one piece of paper that always stands out in my mind, you know, something like 30 something names just in a list of people who should have been redacted, who had. These were people, many of whom had never been public and There they were, you know, their names for all the world to see. But then also things like, you know, in some cases, phone numbers or addresses or other personal identifying information. Again, these are really, really substantive issues, and there's never been any, like, explanation or even just acknowledgement, really, of these mistakes. And so we hope that Pam Bondi might address that, help us understand the process and get to the bottom of some of it. But my expectation was that it would be more of the same, more avoidance of, like, the real, you know, substantive answers. And. And it sounds like from what we're hearing from the folks that are there reporting back, is that is exactly what happened.
- [06:22]
Kathryn Rampel
Yeah, actually, we have at least the opening statement that she gave as prepared. We don't have a transcript yet of what she said during those four hours under which she was questioned by lawmakers, but in her opening statement, she says, quote, there were redaction errors, but since day one of this process, this department has been committed to accountability and, and transparency. That's some pretty convenient passive voice there, I think. I would say there were redaction errors, not weak, committed redaction errors, or here's how they happened. So, you know, again, we don't know what lawmakers specifically asked her on that, or at least we can hear what they've recounted, but it would be great when we'll see the transcript itself. But, yeah, I mean, there was a. If you look at that statement, as I'm sure you have, Annie, there's a lot of boasting about their unprecedented transparency. I'll read you another comment from that that I'd love to get your reaction to. She says, at one point, we demonstrated an unprecedented commitment to transparency in the department search for collection and review of the Epstein files, producing nearly 3 million pages of material, including thousands of videos and hundreds of thousands of images later on. She concludes with, the bottom line is justice and transparency in this matter have been delivered at the direction of President Trump and his administration. What do you make of those kinds of comments?
- [07:54]
Annie Farmer
I guess the first thing that came to mind as you. As you were highlighting the passive voice is that, you know, I'm a therapist, and one of the things that I'd say often comes up in therapy is the importance of taking ownership for mistakes and, and actually apologizing when you make a mistake. Right. Whether there's an intention to harm or not, if harm is done, then we have to take ownership for it in order to move forward in any kind of relationship. Right. And it's just so clear here that that's that's something that she is unwilling to do. Right. And so, you know, we. There was recently this shadow hearing that occurred in Florida where one of the women whose identity was revealed in these documents spoke out like really bravely for the first time publicly about how much harm that had done for her. And so that's what I'm, you know, thinking of when I think of just for the flippancy in which she talks about, yeah, that, you know, there were some mistakes made, but look at all that we accomplished. And then my second reaction is just that it sort of, it negates the resistance to this, this effort that the administration put up, you know, from the get go. I mean, this really started because of the amount of, I guess, interest on the campaign trail that that was generated by, you know, Trump's, you know, people talking quite a bit about the Epstein files. Right. Not necessarily Trump himself, but these people that were out there trying to like, drum up support for him. And then he gets into office and people say, okay, we want to see now. We want the answers, we want the information. And there's this quick about face. And Pam Bondi herself goes from, oh, yeah, I have this information, I'm about to release it to. There's nothing to see here. Right. And that's just a conveniently left. Left out of this narrative. And then in fact, as we started pushing for transparency, there was so much resistance. Right. Lawmakers who were willing to side with us were being called into the Oval Office and receiving a tremendous amount of pressure to not vote for the release of these files. So to act as if they have been for transparency and that it's somehow coming from Trump himself is just really an insult, I think, to anyone that has actually been involved in this process. We forced them to release information. And some of that information has been released.
- [10:26]
Kathryn Rampel
Some of it has been released. Right. Some of it that was not supposed to be released was also released.
- [10:33]
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- [10:38]
Kathryn Rampel
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- [10:38]
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- [11:03]
Kathryn Rampel
Wait, you don't need an hour to burn calories. TikTok has short workouts that get your heart rate up fast. Download now and get moving. Yeah. If you look at the kinds of things that Democratic lawmakers who were there today recount having happened, there's a lot of, of recounting that she refuted. Pam Bonney refused to answer questions about her interactions with Donald Trump, about, you know, what directives she was given perhaps to cloak his, his potential relationship with, with Mr. Epstein or Ghislaine Maxwell. I think we actually have video of Representative Stansbury talking about some of that,
- [11:57]
Representative Stansbury
that the United States Department of Justice is intervening on behalf of Pam Bondi to stop her from answering questions about what happened in the COVID up of this case and her conversations with Donald Trump and is asserting that she does not have to answer questions because she is not required to, because she is not being deposed under oath. This is a cover up. This will be remembered as the largest cover up likely in American history. And it is clear that this interview is a smokescreen to try to show the American people that they are complying while they are not.
- [12:36]
Kathryn Rampel
Do you think they were trying to move the ball forward on this case? Do you think that the DOJ or Republicans in Congress are actually trying to uncover more information here?
- [12:53]
Annie Farmer
You know, when we, we first met, I say we, there was a number of survivors that came in and gave testimony last summer in front of the House Oversight Committee. And the reaction at the end of that meeting was, you know, many members were moved emotionally. They expressed a great interest in supporting our efforts to get to the bottom of this and bringing more transparency to this case. And I really believed it at that time. There have been things that have happened within the House Oversight Committee investigation that I think have been really important in terms of people, both Democrats and Republicans, voting for certain subpoenas of people that had never been questioned before, who are key players and for the release of documents. And then those documents have been made public and that really helped move things forward. So I think that there has at times been a real bipartisan effort to. Yeah. To get, to move this investigation along. But unfortunately, you know, what we've seen like with this today, right. This should have been a taped under oath deposition or interview. Right. Like, this should not have been something that the American people will never be able to see and survivors will never be able to see. And that was a decision that was specifically made by the party that's in charge of the House Oversight Committee right now. That was Comer's decision. And I think many people have expressed frustration with that decision. I also thought, I was really surprised to learn that there were not other Republican members of the committee present for this interview today, which to me, first of all, it being scheduled during a recess. So it just makes it that much more challenging for people to get there, more inconvenient. That is already going to, you know, of course mean less, less representation there and then, but still many members of the, many Democratic members of the House Oversight Committee did show up. And the fact that no other Republicans showed up, I think just leaves us feeling, questioning whether there is a true desire to get to the bottom of this from, from some members of Congress.
- [15:14]
Kathryn Rampel
Yeah, I mean as you have pointed out, there have been other Republican lawmakers who have bucked their party, have, have defied the President's wishes and have actually voted to, voted for the, the Transparency act, for example, or otherwise tried to get to the bottom of this. But it, it feels a little, at least it looks a little bit like some of the motivation may be waning, some of the, some of the pressure campaign may be waning.
- [15:47]
Annie Farmer
It really is unfortunate because it's clear that, that this is not a partisan issue. Of course, you know, sexual abuse of children, of sexual assault of women, like these are not partisan issues. We know that there are plenty of people, you know, that have been involved in both parties that are, you know, commit these types of crimes and you know, need to be held accountable. So it, I think it's really, it's really amiss and it, you know, I, I think it's too bad that that's the case because I think people are watching. We know that there's support on all sides in, you know, via the American public. That's really clear. And, and you know, girls, young women survivors are watching to see, you know, what actually follow through. There is in thinking about how they handle their own lives. Right. And things that have happened to them and whether they report and all of that. And so I just, I, I would hope for better.
- [16:42]
Kathryn Rampel
So I knew going into this that there wasn't going to be video of the, the conversation today. I didn't realize until this afternoon actually that it was not going to be administered under oath. Was that expected? Had I just missed it or was, was this a last minute change?
- [17:00]
Annie Farmer
Do you know, I think that that is part of having it be a transcribed interview. When they made that decision. That was something that I was alerted to. You know, I heard Comer say, well, it's still, it's still a lie. I mean it's still a crime to lie to Congress. But obviously that having that, you know, having it not be under oath I think does just make it that Much easier to skirt answering things directly. And, and I think it's problematic. Yeah. But I, I don't know when that, you know, exactly when that decision was made, but I do think it was a bad decision.
- [17:36]
Kathryn Rampel
One potentially encouraging thing I think that came out today after this congressional closed door hearing with Pam Bondi is that Harmeet Dhillon, who's the Assistant Attorney General for Civil Rights, said on camera that Pam Bondi, the former ag, thought that Ghislaine Maxwell should not get a pardon and should die in prison. Can we play that? Actually,
- [18:04]
Annie Farmer
females who collaborate with sex offenders are worse because they procure other victims for the sex offender and that she should die in prison. And twice she said that she should not receive a pardon.
- [18:18]
Kathryn Rampel
Thanks for your time.
- [18:19]
Annie Farmer
Appreciate it.
- [18:20]
Kathryn Rampel
So, Annie, was that comforting?
- [18:22]
Annie Farmer
I was glad to hear those words from Pam Bondi. That's not something that had been expressed previously to my knowledge, despite us asking again and again for reassurances that she would not be pardoned. So definitely that's good news. I hope, you know, that is shared by other people in the administration, that belief, and that we can hold them to that.
- [18:45]
Kathryn Rampel
What do you think the consequences would be or the implications would be if in fact, Maxwell gets a pardon?
- [18:53]
Annie Farmer
I think it just would send the worst possible message about the levels of corruption in our government. It just is so clear that she, I mean, we have so many witnesses linking her to these crimes, while the trial itself just focused on the experiences of four victims. You know, I have met so many other women who said, you know, Maxwell's the reason this happened to me. Maxwell is the one that recruited me, or Maxwell was involved in what happened to me. And so it would, of course, be devastating for survivors of this case. She's the only person who has been held accountable for their crimes, and she has been held accountable for her crimes, not for someone else's, but for hers. But also, I think it would just send a terrible message, you know, to, to other survivors in this country that, you know, you can have a mountain of evidence, millions of documents, so many people coming forward and still get off the hook. And, and really, I think that just speaks to the, the piece of this that is maybe, you know, one of the reasons that people have remained so interested and that there has been such a push on this case is it really can illustrates the corruption piece, right, that having power, having the right connections, having wealth can just buy you sort of a different set of rules. We've already seen that in the way that she has been handled within the prison system and transfer. That now, I've now heard multiple, like, you know, Bureau of Prisons employees say is really unprecedented. So we're already seeing it at play here. But I think if there was a pardon, it would just be. It would be a really, really bad message.
- [20:35]
Kathryn Rampel
Yeah. And I was thinking back to your comments before about how you are a therapist, you often work with victims of sexual abuse and sexual assault, and there's already an asymmetric power dynamic there. Often, almost. Well, by definition, I think there's an asymmetric power dynamic, but it's one that persists even after victims maybe reach adulthood and maybe fearful of coming forward. Even. Even when they are of majority age. They fear coming forward because the person who victimized them probably has more power and more connections than they do. And, like, what more striking example of that, what more demoralizing example, what more discouraging way to intimidate potential victims from coming forward than to, say, look even like one of the most famous sex traffickers? Infamous, I should say, sex traffickers in the world still gets this special treatment. So it. It feels like it carries symbolism and import well beyond the already very large circle of victims and survivors like yourself, but potentially carries a message for lots of people who might have come forward or might be considering coming forward.
- [22:06]
Annie Farmer
Yes, I completely agree. And it's really why. It's why I got involved last summer in speaking out more publicly. You know, I sort of. I kind of thought after she was. After she was convicted and sentenced that this finally, you know, moving forward, moving on, that this case was going to recede a little bit in terms of the energy it took up in my life. And that had happened for a time. And then last summer, you know, with the announcement of this Todd Blanch interview and some of what was happening, it became clear that it was important to remind people about who this was because seemed like there was an effort to sort of rehab her image and. And paint her in a light that was really not accurate and is potentially, you know, a good source of information, which is also, you know, she has been charged with perjury by our government. So I just felt like people needed to be reminded of the facts. And that really is what compelled me to, like, step back up and start speaking out more.
- [23:08]
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- [23:39]
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- [24:07]
Kathryn Rampel
So what is it that you and other survivors are asking happen now? Are. Yeah, are, are asking, demanding, hoping will happen now?
- [24:19]
Annie Farmer
I mean, I think there's a few things. One is that, you know, we are hoping that the investigative leads that were in these files will be followed up on in some way. And, and so that would be like, counter to what we've heard from the doj, which is that, you know, these investigations are closed because there were no substantial leads worth investigating. I've talked to a number of either current or former prosecutors that have said that's inaccurate. Like this, this, and this are all things that are worthy of follow up. And we have learned from, again, the House Oversight Committee calling in some of these people that were instrumental to Epstein's operation, the financial portion of it or other portions that they'd never been spoken to by, they'd never been interviewed by our government. So this investigation clearly just really didn't happen. So I think we're hoping for more investigation. That's one thing. I also think we're trying to draw attention to these issues in hopes of preventing these kinds of crimes from continuing to occur and helping people understand the nature and the dynamics of how they occur. So there's a couple different things happening on the legislative front. There's a law called Virginia's law, of course, named after Virginia Robert Giuffre. One of her goals was to get the statute of limitations, you know, taken away for, for crimes of sex trafficking. And so that's something that we have been working with, you know, Congress to push forward. We. There's a state law in New York right now that's getting some attention because there's actually a loophole such that, you know, 15, 16, 17 year olds, people that solicit sex from them can be discharged with a misdemeanor, like a slap on the wrist, which is really appalling if you think about, you know, that's the. Really the age of a lot of the minor victims in this case, they were in that time frame of their lives. And so we know it's a really vulnerable period. And the fact that these would not be felonies is. Is. I mean, it's out of step with the label code across the country. It's a loophole. It needs to be closed. And so, you know, things like that that we're trying to draw attention to and speak out about, and then, you know. Yeah, I think that ultimately just real transparency and accountability come from understanding some of the big questions in this case that haven't been answered. So, for me, that often in a very personal way goes back to my sister Maria Farmer's 1996 report. What happened there? Right. We've now seen evidence of it in writing. There is this FBI form that shows, yes, she reported to the FBI that these photos had been stolen and that she believed what was happening was a pedophile ring. That she. Part of her report is not there, part of what she told the FBI, and we know that they recorded it in some way, both what happened to her as a victim herself of Epstein and Maxwell on Wexner's property and what happened to me at Zora Ranch, because they came back 10 years later and asked her for more details about those crimes. So there is evidence that they knew, you know, that. That they wrote down more of. Of what she told them, but that has not been released yet. So it's just, you know, one of many clues that suggests there are important documents that have yet to be released. Maybe those documents would give us some answers about why he was allowed to, you know, continue harming children and young women. Who else was involved, who helped enable it, and who else needs to be held accountable?
- [27:57]
Kathryn Rampel
Are there other documents at this point that have not been released? Should there be another trove of material that is released to the public? You would be looking for. Are there specific things that maybe you looked for in the past couple of releases that you didn't find?
- [28:18]
Annie Farmer
I've spoken with other survivors that have said that they. One specific person comes to mind that's a Jane Doe who has said, I reported. I. I reported to the FBI. And, you know, and that is not. There's no evidence in my report. And she has made multiple FOIA requests and has gotten, you know, pushback, pushback, pushback, or said, this is confidential. You know, this cannot be released. It will not be released. So, you know, that's. That's one other, you know, piece of information that suggests There are things that they are deeming, you know, either, you know, confidential for some reason that they say don't fall under this law. But I think that there's. There's probably a lot of things like that and what we, you know, based on their estimates of there being six million documents, and they've given us three and a half million. Right. There's not that many of the same file. You know, they've said, well, there were some repetition of documents or there were some things that we inadvertently said belonged in this file and didn't. But it's really hard to imagine that there were 3 million errors like that. So I really believe that there are other documents and maybe they go to, like, a sense of nature because of some of the political people involved, but I don't think that should be a reason for them not to be released.
- [29:34]
Kathryn Rampel
Is there anything else we haven't addressed today that you wanted to make sure we talked about?
- [29:40]
Annie Farmer
You know, I think just that I have felt myself this, you know, this sense of conflict sometimes between wanting to move on, wanting to move forward, and, and then not feeling able to move forward because we still don't have these, these answers and we still don't have accountability. Right. And so I'm just really grateful that people have continued to, you know, push around this issue that we've continued to feel support from, from Americans, just from the general public, because I can understand it's a. It's a heavy topic, it's a hard topic, and I think it's just a natural human tendency to kind of want to move beyond these types of hard things. You know, but the truth is that these types of crimes are happening every day in all of our communities. You know, whether the person in power is in power at a school or a church or another type of organization. Right. Or in power in our government or Wall Street. Right. Like that they still are abusing their power to harm vulnerable people. And I think the more that we can talk about it, the, the more comfortable victims can be to come forward and the more we can hold the people that are committing these crimes accountable.
- [30:52]
Kathryn Rampel
Yeah, I mean, as we've been talking, I've been thinking about what is it like for you to do interviews like this ad nauseam with journalists like me and people at other outlets to basically have the duty, responsibility, burden of having to remind people of what happened to you and what happens to presumably millions of other victims, survivors out there, not just in, in this particular set of crimes, but in general. And I, I'm not exactly even sure, how to ask this, but I guess, what is that like for you? Is it burdensome? Is it cathartic? Is it empowering? Do you like doing interviews like this?
- [31:42]
Annie Farmer
All of the above, honestly. You know, I mean, I think that, number one, it is really, I'm really grateful to be one of a number of survivors who has come forward and shared their stories and been advocating and speaking out. Right now there's a small army of us, which makes it less burdensome for any one individual. And I think that there are so many compelling stories and so many really powerful women involved in this case. So I'm just. It's an honor to be like working alongside them. But of course we talk about the fact that it can be very exhausting and, and people have felt that stress and pressure in different ways. And you know, for myself, you know, one of the reasons that I, I do feel compelled to speak out is because of what happened to my sister, Maria Farmer. You know, I think the stress of all this, of being, you know, willing to name names and call this out when so many people were really doing the opposite, like looking the other way, thinking about their own kind of motivations and what worked best for them, I think it really took a tremendous toll on her. And so, you know, she's had a lot of really significant health challenges and that makes it hard for her to be able to kind of do this, this type of advocacy. And so, you know, I'm thinking a lot about the relationship between stress and trauma and the body and how that all impacts us. But I think the messages that we get from just people in the community, people doing this work at the local level or in a wider spread way, I think that just pushes us on and buoys us and makes us want to keep on speaking out.
- [33:32]
Kathryn Rampel
Thank you, Annie, so much for taking the time to talk today and I hope you get something approaching closure soon.
- [33:40]
Annie Farmer
Thank you so much.
- [33:43]
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