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- [00:00]
Thomas Keller
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- [01:00]
Tim Miller
Tim I'm Tim Miller of the Bulwark. You know if you're here, I've got some of my colleagues and coming on with me, we have some good news on a Friday night and that's why we're here with you live. The I guess we're gonna call it a hostage swap. Not really a prisoner swap. There's a hostage swap between El Salvador and Venezuela and I guess the United States, though the United States is trying to pretend like they're not the part of it, at least for now. I'm sure they'll try to take credit at some point, but essentially the swamp was Venezuela had about 10 US citizens detained in the country and in exchange for that, El Salvador has sent to Venezuela the men that they had been holding on behalf of the U.S. government. And the good news is that includes Andre Hernandez Romero, the makeup artists that we have been covering a lot here at the Bulwark. We did a live event in D.C. in support of the legal team at Immigrant Defenders that have been working for Andre and many other Venezuelans who were kidnapped, sent to a concentration camp in El Salvador where they remained with no contact to lawyers, no contact to their family, no access to due process for 125 days. So for 125 days they were in the torture prison in El Salvador Sicotte and we now have confirmation that they are not only out but they've arrived in Caracas. Obviously we don't know for every person, but we have some Images, Jared, if you're able to put those on the screen, go ahead and do it. We've got some images. There we go. That's Andre at the front there coming out of the plane. His lawyer, Lindsay Teslowski, just put out this statement. We were able to identify Andri exiting the plane in Venezuela after 125 days in a torture prison in El Salvador. He's been released and. Sorry, he's been released and sent back to the country he initially fled. We'll keep fighting for justice for Andree. You know, it's nice that they're alive. I think that there was very reasonable belief that they might not be alive, that they might not have survived the conditions in El Salvador. And I guess we don't know for sure that everybody has, but the fact that Andre Hernandez Romero has survived, has arrived back in Venezuela, the country that he was fleeing, is a good thing. I think that hopefully Maduro. Maduro is pressuring El Salvador. Hopefully there is pressure from inside Venezuela for him to kind of do right by these Venezuelan people. And as such, hopefully they will not be mistreated upon arrival. We don't know that, you know, Andre was fleeing Venezuela probably because of his sexuality, in part because of concerns about political targeting and showing up to a protest and had fled to America. And so, you know, he's not out of the woods yet, I guess, and none of these men are out of the woods yet. But it is certainly better to be able to contact their families, to be able to reunite with their families, to be back in Venezuela, than it is to be in a concentration camp in another country that you've never been to before. I want to read more from Lindsay Teslowski, who's been just doing unbelievable work, advocating on behalf of Andre and others, other Venezuelans who were wrongly kidnapped in Sento, El Salvador. She says this. We've been fighting to free Andree, our other clients, and all the men from Sukkot for more than four months. We're incredibly relieved that it appears most of them have been freed from the torture prison the US Government sent them to and potentially may be reunited with family soon. But as an American and as a lawyer who believes deeply in the rule of law and due process, my heart remains heavy. What happened here is a dangerous travesty of justice. We have long known that the allegations that the men at Sukote were members of a dangerous gang were baseless. We know the Trump administration denied them due process and sent them to a prison notorious for abuse and torture. The Trump administration misled the public and our courts by claiming that US Government was not in control of what happened to the men in Secot, only to eventually, after 125 days, orchestrate a prisoner swap using human beings as pawns. So while we are grateful that they will not spend another night being tortured in El Salvador, we also grieve the ongoing and lasting damage being done to our democracy by an administration that is willing to violate our constitution, US Asylum laws, and international law. While the Trump administration escalates their use of authoritarian practices meant to intimidate people into submission, we will keep fighting for justice for immigrants and for the future of this country. Really well said. Very passionate. We will put at that once this gets posted here. Put a link to the interview I did with her a couple weeks ago for folks that missed it. Lindsay Daslowski, just an unbelievable advocate. I don't want to get too happy. It's emotional. I have to be honest. I'm getting emotional because, you know, walking onto that plane, just that image of him with these others walking on the plane is something. And you're in Venezuela, but it is still freedom. You're out of those cages, those dehumanizing cages that they had put these men in. You're back in your home country. He's able to see his mother reunite with his mother, we presume, and family, and hopefully have an opportunity for a new life. And, you know, I think that. My understanding is that Richard Grinnell has been part of some kind of negotiation with Venezuela, prioritizing the release of the Americans who are held in Venezuela. And obviously, that's a good thing. You know, I don't want anyone wrongfully held in Venezuela, particularly no Americans. But it is. It is so maddening and sickening that, like, we have decided to trade the people that we kidnapped in order to get people out. And it is just like it is such a tarnishing of what America is supposed to be, is supposed to be in the world that, like, we're doing this swap, as if this is like a Russia versus North Korea swap, where the one side gives back the people they kidnapped to the other side. You know, it's sick. It's sick what we did. It's sick what we did to these men. 125 days, you just can't imagine the trauma that they went through. You notice, and you don't want to over read what you can see here. I mean, they're masked, et cetera. But, like, for example, you can see at least with Andre and really with the men behind him, their Hair had grown back. And you remember those initial video images of them. They'd been taken off of that plane. They were shackled. They're beaten. The hair was shaved. And so, you know, I mean, I don't know. Is that 125 days of hair growth? I'm not. I'm not sure, but maybe not. But, you know, you can see conceivably that, like, that is, you know, something that El Salvador is conscious of. Right. Look, Bukele is not. Is very savvy about this. We saw this when it comes to Kilmar, Abrego, Garcia and others, the way that despite the fact that according to Grego Garcia's testimony, he was tortured in that prison, you know, they tried to feed it, you know, before he met with Van Hollen, they fed him, and they did the whole thing where they put the. They tried to make it look like they're having a margarita. And so you gotta be conscious of the propaganda side of all of this. But at some level, it's good to see that not only is he walking free, but at least healthy enough to have his hair grown back, et cetera. I'm trying to bring in some other folks. I know that. I've asked Todd Schulte at Ford us to come join us. We'll see. I think Jared may try to send him a link if you can. Or maybe I can just do that right now. We're in this live. This is kind of like Hasanabi style. You're gonna try to see me. They're trying to get me to cry, I think, live on the Bulwark YouTube. And so we're doing this live. I'm gonna send this to Todd. Todd is much deeper than me on the policy side of this, so I'd like to get him on and maybe Sam Stein or try to get him on as well. But you know what we know. Oh, there he is. At this point. Sam, what's happening Friday night? We pulled you away for this. I've just kind of been giving people a rundown. We have these images of the Venezuelans leaving the plane in Caracas. I just read Lindsey Daslowski's statement, which is pretty powerful about kind of what we. What we know and what her kind of comments are about the US Government. What? It's pretty surprising. I guess. It's good news. It's good. It's a positive surprise. I mean, you know, shouldn't have to be like this after 125 days. But I don't. I don't know that I saw this Coming this afternoon. What?
- [10:46]
Sam Stein
No, I, I was listening to you, and I think you summarized it right. I mean, I'm really torn about this, honestly, in a way. I didn't think I'd be obviously, the incredible relief that this happened, right? Because I think people forget. But it was not, it was not clear, even to Lindsay Tzloski, that he was alive. I remember talking to her at the fundraiser that you spearheaded backstage, and she was just like, I, I, I, I don't know. I asked her, like, do you know if you. I don't know. And so, I mean, incredible relief that he's alive, and yet I can't get over just how shitty it feels. Like that this is what we were reduced to, that, like, we basically put this guy through an incredibly torturous ordeal and then used him as, you know, trade bait. I mean, that's it. He was, he was, he was trade bait. And I don't know, it's hard to, in the moment, it's hard to articulate how you feel about that because I, I want to think that we will look back and just be so ashamed of it. Right? Like that. It's just, it's just so wrong that this happened. And I know he's an individual case, and I'm sure people who support this policy will have a, you know, a bunch of cases of bad people, but no one has ever presented an iota of evidence at all that Andre was bad. Every contemporaneous account of this guy was that he was good, he's good hearted, that he was just trying to have a good life here, and we did this to him, and then we used him as trade bait. And I can't get over that. It feels so crummy, honestly, that it saps from the relief that you feel. Now we're trying to get Lindsay on. I sent her a link. I'm sure she's incredibly busy.
- [12:38]
Tim Miller
Yeah, I don't know. I think we might have Todd Schulte with us as Todd around Jared. Pull him up if you can. I'm. Yeah. No, the trade. Yeah, there he is. Hey, Todd. Folks who don't know Todd spearheads forward us with immigration advocacy group here in the country. And he's the guy making me smart all the time on this stuff because I'm just emoting and Todd's telling me what's actually happening in the real world. Todd, I want to get your biggest picture take on this, but also on one specific thing. So we have now a filing, I guess, where the DOJ is claiming that this Prisoner swap is between. Was. Was between the government of El Salvador and Venezuela. And then they acknowledge in this filing that they might have. Did we lose time? So wait for him to pop back up. They acknowledge this file, that they might have to bring some of these people back. It goes like this. While the United States engaged in diplomatic efforts to make this arrangement possible, the decision to release the Venezuelan nationals from Sakat and to repatriate them to Venezuela was made solely by the government of El Salvador in the excise of its sovereign authority. This is preposterous. Then it goes on. As part of these negotiations, the US Obtained assurances from the Maduro regime that if and when US Legal proceedings reach a stage where the appearance of one of the Venezuelan nationals may be called for in legal proceedings, that the Maduro regime will not impose obstacles. So they're going the other way. I kind of misread the tweet there. Essentially, the US Government is saying, yeah, we might bring a couple of these guys back here to prosecute now. That's what not. Not allow some of them to come back under asylum.
- [14:21]
Sam Stein
And that's what they did with the brca. Yeah, right. They created the pretense to get him back here. All right. Todd, can you hear us?
- [14:27]
Tim Miller
Yeah. All good. On what we know so far. Talk about what we know and the kind of. What the US Posture is and all this.
- [14:37]
Todd Schulte
Yeah, I think, you know, just put this back into context. President Trump, when he was running, talked a lot about the use of what's called the Alien Enemies Act. This is a 1798 war power. We are certainly, I want to be very clear, are not at war with Venezuela. If we. If we were at war with people, we should not be using this power here. This was used to basically remove Venezuelan men to seek out this foreign torture prison in El Salvador. You all have done an amazing job. So many other organizations you talked about, Lindsay, to advocate for these men to get out as part of this swap. What we've seen is 10 men who were held in Venezuela, five US citizens, five LPRs, have been returned to the United States.
- [15:27]
Tim Miller
What's an LPR?
- [15:29]
Todd Schulte
I'm sorry. Thank you. A legal permanent resident.
- [15:30]
Tim Miller
So.
- [15:31]
Todd Schulte
So 10Americans who were being held for political purposes in Venezuela had been returned to the United States as part of a deal. The United States, who we should be very clear was paying El Salvador to incarcerate these men in this horrific, horrific conditions, has basically said they would want to see these men sent to Venezuela. So these men were being held in El Salvador. They've been sent to Venezuela. They've landed on the ground. And we're hearing from people who are identifying their loved ones. It's about somewhere between 238 and 262 men. We don't know the exact number right now, but it's obviously, as you said, a day we should never be in a better day than these men were in yesterday here. But ultimately, we need to be a country that's not sending men or anybody to these horrific conditions to be welcoming people.
- [16:26]
Sam Stein
What happens to these guys? Sorry, what happens to these guys now once they're in Venezuela?
- [16:31]
Todd Schulte
So if they follow the standard protocols for when mostly men are deported or sent back, in this case, because this isn't a formal deportation, they'll be processed. In most cases, the Venezuelan government will return people to their families or their homes. In a lot of cases, about 8,000 people have been sent to Venezuela from the United States, a number of them from Guantanamo so far this year. But look, we heard earlier the Interior Ministry said, said it is likely they may charge some of these men criminally. I also want to point out that in the news has broke so far, the Department of Justice has said they are going to reserve the right that if they need to return people to the United States, they will do that. And so that's really important because it's a prosecute, though.
- [17:14]
Tim Miller
We were just reading that. So tell me. I'm already that right. Not. They're not going to return people that have a legit asylum claim. They're going to return people only if they want to prosecute them for crimes.
- [17:22]
Todd Schulte
That's right. And I just think that's important because it gives away the whole game. They have been lying this whole time. The United States is and has been in control here.
- [17:32]
Tim Miller
Yeah. It's interesting. Antonio DeLauro wrote this, and I kind of. I made this analogy, but just in a less precise way that he did. And so I just wanted to read you what he wrote. The US Effectively did exactly what Russia did to Brittney Griner. Kidnap random civilians, wrongfully detain them, and then use them for a prisoner exchange. And like, that's basically what happened here. Because I think that that Grinnell, for you, haven't been following, like, the Venezuela side of this. Like, Grinnell has been, like, negotiating about this sort of prison exchange for a while. And it's like this whole, like, it's preposterous, like the DOJ filing to argue that, like, El Salvador decided to do this. Right, Right.
- [18:10]
Todd Schulte
I mean, we should be super Clear. One, the United States is in control and two, has been in control. The other thing, just to take a super big step back here, what we're really seeing is an across the board, whole of government approach where immigration enforcement through fear and direct deportation, incarceration is now kind of the central point of the United States government. You saw five African leaders in the Oval Office this week, and the president was pushing them to accept people to their countries. So I just think this is part of this effort where, you know, the idea of pushing out as many people who, you know, came to this country legally who are seeking asylum as possible, that now is this central aspect of Western hemisphere diplomacy and across the globe. And that's awful. That's not who we should be.
- [18:56]
Tim Miller
Besides the positive about just the fact that Andre and some of these guys are free, we think, I mean, tbd and exactly what happens if it is? Well, we'll keep watching that. The only other silver lining I keep having on this is that and Todd, since you've been like, really on the front line of this fight, is that like, these guys wanted to do more of this. Right? Like, the plan was to send more people to El Salvador, not few, and instead we're removing El Salvador. And I do think it shows that, like, that policy, you know, plan has been foiled. Right. And, like, they've got. There's certainly other things that they're doing. They're going to try to send people to these third countries, but, like, there has been, I think, a legitimate pushback against what they've been doing in certain cases. Is that overstated, do you think?
- [19:44]
Sam Stein
No, I mean, I think I'm skeptical, but go ahead.
- [19:48]
Todd Schulte
Well, look, I think, you know, we don't need to get into, like, D.C. discourse too much, but, like, let's be honest here. After the election, there were a ton of Democrats and Republicans who were like, immigration's a tough issue. There were a ton of people in the spring who were like, why are you talking so much about people? And then it was a couple brave acts and a couple, you know, small number of people. Chris Van Hollen and went down to El Salvador. He went down there with the family's lawyer who works at end. A lot. People like Lindsey at INDEF have spoken up. You guys have done an amazing job highlighting these cases here. So not only are you seeing, we're not seeing hundreds and hundreds more people go to El Salvador. The president's approval rating on immigration writ large went like this. And I think that gives you a sense that we should be very Clear eyed. We should be very clear at how hard this is going to be. And I know, Sam. Yeah.
- [20:42]
Sam Stein
I just. My. My skepticism can be summarized in a question for Todd. What happens with Seacock going forward?
- [20:49]
Todd Schulte
I don't know. And I think, you know, I think that is something where. What we can see though is this is an example where people actually spoke up and they did something and, you know, they've been able to stop that there. Obviously, I don't want. Yeah, yeah.
- [21:05]
Sam Stein
I don't dispute that his numbers have tanked on immigration. It's objectively true. But I do. And this is why I'm so. You know, this is just so bitter sweet, bittersweet is that it worked. I mean, it worked for them. It did. They. They kidnapped innocent people.
- [21:23]
Todd Schulte
Yep.
- [21:24]
Sam Stein
They put them in seacot and then they exchanged them for Americans. And that. I don't see why, absent the. Absent, just exhausting the prisoners that you need to get Americans. They need to get back. I don't see why they wouldn't do it again. Right. It wasn't that they were struck down legally from doing this necessarily, although they. They were.
- [21:43]
Tim Miller
They were. But they didn't think Enemies act.
- [21:45]
Sam Stein
Didn't give a. Um. But it worked for them. And I feel like having seacot out there as an option for them to do this again. I guess perhaps they're gonna, you know.
- [21:54]
Tim Miller
I hear you, I hear you. But look, again, this is like the minor silver lining in the whole thing. So, you know, whatever. I'm not trying to be Pollyanna, but they wanted to send more than three planes there, I guess is my point. Like the initial idea was like, that was step one, they had three planes of Venezuelans and Bukele came to the White House and Trump talked about how they were gonna expand seekat. And here they are. The people that they sent are leaving now. So it doesn't mean that more.
- [22:21]
Sam Stein
Well, true, but they are sending people to Sudan. They are building. Alex, they're building Alcatraz and Alligator. Alcatraz.
- [22:28]
Tim Miller
No, I mean, it's sick what they've been doing. They have sick plans. I'm just saying that like, the pushback has worked in. In a narrow sense.
- [22:38]
Sam Stein
Sure.
- [22:38]
Todd Schulte
I think one thing. No, no, no. I mean, I think a lot of people, when you think about politics, we, you know, we're used to dealing with politicians who, you know, they're doing things trying to get to 55% approval ratings. I think we should be real clear. These folks have an incredibly serious hardline policy architecture that things that are like a modest 60, 40 disadvantage to them aren't going to stop. But if you look back to Trump 1 on family separation, on DACA repeal when there was this huge pushback, they were able to do it. But look, we should be super clear. There is $100 billion coming into an already out of control immigration system from the reconciliation bill. They are we went from in a month from a metaphorical use of the term Alcatraz to an actual Alcatraz. Right. And there's millions of people who they're trying to take their status away from right now. So again, I don't want to be Pollyannish. We shouldn't be. But also I do think, you know, this shows that there's things you can do. Congress should intervene here. They should strip funding from these sorts of agreements. They should put things there. So again, I think it is a better day than it was this morning on these things and there's just a ton of work to be done writ.
- [23:40]
Tim Miller
Large on this stuff.
- [23:41]
Todd Schulte
And it's hard out there.
- [23:42]
Tim Miller
Yeah, yeah. I mean more cadet look, and this happened, this all happens the same day, I guess it was yesterday, this big kind of story about how, you know, journalists, activists, nonprofits are fleeing El Salvador because the way they're being targeted by Bukele and Bukele is like trolling them on X. And so, you know, he's like having to navigate all of this stuff too, you know, and, and what's happening for people in El Salvador is extremely frightening. So, you know, it's not he's going to try to continue to navigate how can he do favors for Trump. But while also starting to have to be a little bit sensitive about global the views on Bukele.
- [24:20]
Sam Stein
On that note, it was interesting because I was talking to a couple lawmakers about and I think I forget if Van Hollen did this and Todd correct me if you know, but there was for a brief period of time there was some appetite in Democratic circles to introduce some sort of sanctions legislation that they knew would never go anywhere because they don't control Congress. But it would basically say, look, we're going to sanction the hell out of El Salvador if they continue to except, you know, immigrants from the United States and put them in secot. And you know, I don't know if again, I'm not sure where it stood, but that struck me as like a smart way to sort of liven up the stakes, so to speak for Bukele and say, hey, this isn't always going to be this way. Maybe the, maybe Democrats should Do more of that, frankly.
- [25:05]
Todd Schulte
Yeah. I mean, I think the senator who, I think the way he put it is you guys want to be a tech capital, you want to attract all this. That's going to take more than three years here and Democrats might be in power again. And I think that's an important thing that people should keep in mind. I think here. Yeah, like, this is about incentives for people. And in the case of, again, I kind of go back to the point of like, how important is immigration enforcement to the United States here? It was not that long ago that, Tim, you worked for a politician from Florida who would tell a story about how people fleeing these what they would call failed Marxist regimes was a really good thing for the United States. Right, Right.
- [25:46]
Tim Miller
Yeah.
- [25:48]
Todd Schulte
And like politics change. It obviously feels like we're in a big moment right now and we are here. And so I think reminding people that not everything is forever and that just getting on the accept and deport and incarcerate as many people as possible train is not a good move.
- [26:03]
Tim Miller
I want to do one more thing on Andrea, I've got to run here in a couple minutes. Thanks for everybody sticking with us. But Todd, since we got you, this is the most acute example of, to me, the depravity of this administration's immigration regime. What are you looking at as something that is the most concerning that people may or may not be aware of just broadly and what their plans are on immigration?
- [26:27]
Todd Schulte
Yeah, I mean, I think you saw, I mentioned this, but in the reconciliation bill you saw, you know, basically it is basic for a bill that extended and expanded tax cuts for people on the higher ends, took huge cuts out of Medicaid and health care and Medicaid. That does actually a really good job keeping people safe. So we're going to have worse public safety outcomes and then this huge expansion of an out of control immigration system, $45 billion for ICE detention in jails, you know, that is 12 times the annual budget. They'll spend it over a couple of years, this supercharging of an out of control system here. And so, you know, it's taking away status from millions of people, subjecting them to deportation, taking away due process to speed up their deportations. And when you just pour this incredible accelerant of unprecedented funds on there, I, you know, I just hear from people words like dread and fear. And I think it's on all of us to the things we can't stop to tell the stories and to bring more people in to be like, this is really bad.
- [27:25]
Tim Miller
Yeah. And you're talking about fear from what, like, longtime residents, that kind of thing. People have been here that.
- [27:32]
Todd Schulte
Yeah, yeah. People who came to this country as kids, people who've lived in this country for decades. People who are 18 years into a 19, 20, 21 year asylum process and are concerned they're going to get kicked out of the line.
- [27:46]
Tim Miller
Yeah, yeah. And this is the thing, like, and you, you can maybe talk about this just briefly because it's something that I just really want to drive home with people is like, I was watching, I don't know why I do this to myself. I was watching Piers Morgan and Joy Reid arguing about this.
- [27:59]
Sam Stein
And Piers, you love it. Tim, you love it.
- [28:04]
Tim Miller
Obama was the deporter in chief. Obama deported a lot of people, but a lot of the people that came across the border and then went back around the other way. And so again, those are humans too. But just talk a little bit about the math. And if they want to put in this mass deportation campaign that is commensurate with the budget that they have now committed to it, like, the only way to do it is to go after long term residents who live in the interior of the country.
- [28:32]
Todd Schulte
Yeah. The idea that this is anything other than like a mass criminalization and mass enforcement regime that's targeting as many people as possible. Like, they're giving away the game. Andre's giving away the game. Right. They tried to use their propaganda to lie about him. And we're seeing that across the country. The average undocumented immigrants been in this country for 15 years, DACA recipients. So those are dreamers that came to the country as kids. Most DACA recipients had some sort of protection for a decade. They came to this country at the age of six. They've been here for 26 years. I talked to DACA recipients who were, they're going to lose their protections. I talked to somebody today who is worried about a parent who came to this country in the early 90s who has been trying to do everything they can to protect themselves, protect a family member. But there's no, you know, at the end of the day, the answer we need is a pathway to citizenship and legal status for people. There is no humane immigration system where we're locking 12, 14 million people out of permanent status. And also, like, that's, you know, not to make this about polling. That's actually like the best political contrast with people is to hold that up and not get into these fine lines about the particulars of deportation here and there. We should have a secure border, let people come legally in the future by fixing our legal immigration system. And let's have a process people can go through for people who are building their lives here.
- [29:54]
Thomas Keller
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- [30:55]
Sam Stein
Let me, let me make a shameless plug. People should read Huddled Masses, our newsletter on immigration, which is really getting at that probable sense of fear. What a quick newsy nugget just to show you the ripple effects that will come from this evening. ACLU apparently has filed a request with Judge Boseberg to get everyone who was sent to El Salvador under the Alien Enemies act due process, not just the Venezuelans who are released. I don't know what the next step is on that, but it just goes to show you that this isn't a one off, that this will cause some ripple effects on on the issue of deportations going forward.
- [31:33]
Tim Miller
Todd, thanks so much for popping on. And Sam, on Friday night, yeah, go to the bork.com to sign up for Huddled Masses. Adrian Kirsky is doing such a great job just covering this immigration story and you know, hopefully we'll talk to Lindsey and the immigration Defenders folks and maybe have more for folks this weekend as we learn more. But you know, as sick as it is that we had to go through this, it really was moving to kind of see the images of Andre and these other Venezuelans get off that plane and be out of that fucking torture prison and be able to go hug their parents and be home. And I'm happy we could share that with all of you lives that happened. And so subscribe to our Feed because we'll be back later this weekend with more on that. I got to go to my buddy's birthday party and.
- [32:17]
Sam Stein
Wait, hold on, hold on one second.
- [32:20]
Tim Miller
Oh, hey, okay, I can wait. My friend can wait. A 48th birthday doesn't even count. We're just about to shut it down. But, hey, how are you feeling right now? What do we know?
- [32:33]
Lindsay Teslowski
Not too much beyond that. We were able to identify him leaving a plane in Venezuela. So really all I can say is that it's day 125. He will not be sleeping in a torture prison tonight. And that's undoubtedly a good thing and a huge relief. But if I had to sum up how I feel right now, I feel relief that he won't be sleeping there tonight, and I feel absolute outrage at the situation. We still have no confirmation from the US Government, from any government source of his well being. We saw him exiting the plane. We're in communication with his family. But what we do know is that he spent four months in a torture prison. He was sent there by the Trump administration. He was denied due process, and he was sent back to the very place that he fled without any notification to his attorneys and no process by which we could have objected to that happening. So I'm relieved, but, but so outraged still.
- [33:32]
Tim Miller
So outrage. I read your statement earlier. I was wondering how long you were, you were torquing that up. Because it was really nice. It was, it was hitting my rage pleasure centers. What are the families? Like? What are you, what are you hearing from the. I mean, like you said, you've been touched with the family. Like what? Obviously they're thrilled, but what, what, what can you tell us?
- [33:51]
Lindsay Teslowski
Well, they're thrilled, but they haven't actually, as of a few minutes ago, been able to speak with Andre and our other eight clients who also were freed as part of this deal. So right now, the families still don't know what processing will look like in Venezuela. And so, you know, all of us woke up this morning having no information that this was about to happen. The families, the lawyers. So it's been quite a day. And obviously, you know, those images, him walking off of that plane is the first proof of life that his mom has had, you know, this whole time. This is the first time she's seeing him alive. And, and, okay, we don't know exactly what they've suffered. I've started to see some of the news reports coming from Venezuela that they were saying they were, you know, being beaten, just tortured, as, as we suspected, and, and now know, um, was happening. So I know that the family is relieved. Um, but they have a lot of questions, just like we all do.
- [34:53]
Tim Miller
Talk about the other eight clients. Sorry, Sam, you go. Nice. But like anybody, have you heard from any of the other eight clients? And obviously we've been focused on Andre just because of how outrageous, like on its face that case is. But. But anything from any other. Are you sure that they are included in the deal? Have you seen them photographed as well?
- [35:09]
Lindsay Teslowski
So we haven't been able to identify anyone else on the videos and photographs that we've seen. But it's our understanding, and again, just from the public statements that the governments are making, that all of the Venezuelan men who are at sicot, Some of our clients we had been able to identify in other videos, in the Matt Gates video that came out a couple of months ago. So we know they were at secot and we believe that they have been released. But again, the families haven't been notified in some cases. The Venezuelan government was notifying families earlier today, and some of our clients received that notification. Strangely, Andre's family didn't receive that notification, but it does appear that at least some of them, and hopefully all of them were on that flight. You know, like Andre, some of our other clients were in the middle of their asylum proceedings. They had asked for asylum in the United States. They were in the middle of that process when they were disappeared to El Salvador. So obviously what happens next is unknown, but we have real concerns. This violates U.S. asylum law. This violates, you know, international principles of protection and asylum law. There's a concept called non reformat, which means that you can't send people back to places where they may be persecuted or tortured. And that's exactly what appears to have happened today. All as part of a non transparent prisoner swap deal that none of these people will ever consented to being a part of.
- [36:39]
Sam Stein
First of all, thank you so much for doing this. I know you're incredibly busy, and if you have to go, just give us a nonverbal signal, like just, you know, do this or something. Okay. And Todd, thank you for sticking with us. If you have to go, please feel free to jump on.
- [36:52]
Todd Schulte
I just. I just want to fanboy Lindsay's incredible work as I've done.
- [36:56]
Sam Stein
Fair enough.
- [36:56]
Todd Schulte
Yeah.
- [36:57]
Sam Stein
Okay. But Todd, for real, it's a Friday night. If you need to jump off, we will not be offended. Lindsay, I just. You mentioned that this was the family's first proof of life in, God, what was it? Months? Right. Okay. Without getting too well, you can get as Detailed as you want, but I'm sure you want to guard against revealing maybe too much, but what is that like? What was the depths of despair that they felt? How dark did it actually get for them?
- [37:25]
Lindsay Teslowski
I mean, I think for everybody who has a family member in Secot, we, you know, have heard time and time again from the families that their greatest fear, and they lived with 24 hours a day for the last 125 days, is that they would never see their loved ones again, that they would die in that prison where the justice Minister has said people only leave in a coffin. You know, the last images that were seen of Andre specifically were him being tortured when he first arrived, him begging for his mom. That I know for me, and I'm, you know, not his mom and not a family member. But for me, that's something that popped into my head multiple times a day, just thinking of what was happening to him and you know, seared into my mind that that was the last images we had. And I think for his family, for his best friend, who was one of his biggest advocates, who did so much, even went to El Salvador to try to. To see him and to visit him. For everybody that was worried about him, you know, what we thought was that there was a very real and grave possibility that he would never get out of there and that he would die there. We had no idea whether he would survive. So that's the part of me that's relieved tonight. To see that image of him walking off of that plane, to be able to see, you know, the tattoos on his arms, which both, you know, are part of why he ended up there, but also the way that we were able to identify him in those horrific Time magazine photos. To be able to identify him as walking off that plane by those same tattoos is just. It's really an indescribable feeling because it is paired with such outrage that this travesty of justice has happened at all.
- [39:14]
Tim Miller
I'm feeling it on a minor level.
- [39:15]
Sam Stein
I mean, having to identify people by tattoos has fairly rich historical parallels here that I think people don't need to be a genius to connect.
- [39:27]
Tim Miller
It's all. Can I ask Lindsey about, you know, the families that had heard from the Venezuelan government? And obviously, the next thing to be worried about here is, like, there's a reason many of these men were fleeing Venezuela, right? I mean, I don't know. Is this sense, though, that the Venezuelan government, like, feels pressure to treat them well as some sort of win, like, domestic win over El Salvador and the gringos or what in the western green? Or is there, or is there real concern about treatment by the Venezuelan government?
- [39:55]
Lindsay Teslowski
Well, you know, what's interesting here is I think we have three strong men who are involved with this prisoner swap deal, and all of them will use it to their personal advantage, which we've seen in all of the statements that have come out thus far from the different governments about what happened today. I think, you know, looking at the glass half full, certainly we hope that the Maduro regime will feel pressure because of a case like Andres has garnered so much international attention that that will bring him some level of safety. But we just don't know. We know that there are political prisoners in Venezuela. We know that people, people are subjected to incredible persecution. There's a reason why more people have fled from Venezuela than any other country in this hemisphere over the last five years. I mean, this is a country in crisis. So I think what part of the outrage that I'm feeling right now is just that, you know, as a lawyer that has been working on his case day in and day out for the last four months, our team has been working on it even longer than that. We have no idea. We don't know what the safety situation is for him or the other asylum seekers who were just, contrary to international and US Law, put on a plane and sent back to the place they fled.
- [41:19]
Tim Miller
All right, I know you have so much going on, but so what are just really quick, what are next steps? Are there things people can do to be supportive of your work?
- [41:27]
Lindsay Teslowski
Yeah, we, you know, as an organization, we're here in Los Angeles. And so in addition to Andre's case and the Alien Enemies act work, we are also responding to the raids that have been happening here. We are responding to the thousands of people in our community that have been picked up. And we can always use financial support for that work. People can go to our website, mdef.org or follow us on socials to learn more about what we're doing. And, you know, we often put calls to action out about different topics. And once we have ones related to On3, we will be putting those out on our social medias sites as well.
- [42:04]
Tim Miller
Thanks so much. That's immdef.org Lindsay, I love you. Thank you so much. I know it's like a rage and relief together, but like, we need a German word for it and German's probably the right language for this. I don't know. I'm sure there's a rage and relief word together.
- [42:20]
Sam Stein
But, Lindsay, thank you so much. Honestly, thank you for everything. You've done. It's incredible.
- [42:25]
Lindsay Teslowski
I want to I want to say thank you to both of you as well. I think Sam, you were the one of the first interviews I did after AND three disappeared in March. And Tim, you've just been doing an incredible amount of work to help us shine a light on this travesty of justice and we're incredibly grateful to the Bulwark for all that you have done to help us to raise awareness. It really made a big difference.
- [42:46]
Sam Stein
Credit goes to you. Nothing goes to you.
- [42:48]
Tim Miller
Appreciate you so much. Let us know keep us posted as we learn more and we'll keep we'll keep the audience posted as well over the weekend as we learn more about Kind know as he gets processed into Venezuela and the others. So thanks so much Lindsay everybody else appreciate you all enjoy your Friday night. Have a glass of rose or something and we'll keep you posted this weekend as news develops. We'll see you all soon.