B (3:58)

And the gun's not accidentally discharged by him, so to speak. Yeah, a few feet away. Right.

C (4:05)

Yeah, exactly.

B (4:06)

Remove the gun from the immediate.

C (4:07)

They removed the gun, and he was unarmed, and he was not fighting back. He was not even opposing a threat. All right, so those are the basic facts. And I don't really. And if anyone's disagreeing with that, then they're just a liar. And. And you don't need to give them credence. They're just lying. Okay, now, this is what stands out to me, though, is what happens immediately afterwards. It's the lies. It's lies. You have an administration that quickly put out a narrative that wasn't appearing to contradict the facts. They were lies. I mean, they talked about how he was, you know, threatening the officers. They quickly moved to say, well, he was carrying a gun. Who shows up with a gun at a event? You know, they called him a terrorist and an assassin. This guy was a literal choir boy. And the. The.

B (5:00)

The.

C (5:00)

The speed with which they went from Killing him to smearing him is what really profoundly affected me because I, you know, on a level, you do expect your government and the authorities who are assigned to protect us and investigate malfeasance. You expect them to be honest or at least to have integrity. You don't expect them to move with incredible speed to prejudice the investigation, to cover it up, to shape public opinion, to literally try to prevent other authorities from investigating it, which is what we're seeing in these affidavits. I mean, I was just blown away by not just the speed, but how rehearsed it felt. They've done this before. They know exactly which outlet to put their propaganda in. They know that outlet's going to run it. They know the playbook, they know exactly the things to say and they go online and they quickly say it. And if not for the abundance of video that we have, maybe it would work, but I don't think it's working. I don't know.

B (6:04)

That's important. I mean, just, just to emphasize one aspect of that point, government agencies tend to defend their own people. And they would have been in a normal world. One could imagine the head of border Patrol or DHS or someone else in the White House saying, look, we're investigating what's happening. It's very unfortunate. This man who seems to. Was a VA nurse in the. I, I see in the emergency room at the icu, I guess at a VA seems to, you know, it's very unfortunate what happened. We regret it. We extend condolences to the family. But you have to understand these people are under a huge amount of pressure and difficulty and we're going to investigate it. But we shouldn't jump to conclusions and assume that these people, you know, they, they might, there might be. This is more of a tragedy that a murder that would be in effect and that would illegitimate to, to say that if you're head of one of these agencies, you might be putting your thumb in the scale a little bit, you know, against giving him the benefit of the doubt. So speak. There's not even a pretense of that anymore. They did. Everything they did was legitimate. He's a domestic terrorist and there's no need, no outside investigation, no cooperation with state and local law enforcement. I mean, did. Yeah, I do. And you know, I, I sort of agree with you that. Can't. Can that work? I mean, can that.

C (7:15)

No. And I feel, I feel in this moment horrible for the family of Alexander Preddy because everything that could have been done wrong to them was right. They obviously, they lost Their loved one. That's the most horrific part of it. But then secondarily, if you read some of the stories, appears they found out about this because an Associated Press reporter called them to ask, and then they had to go scramble, calling different state and federal authorities to figure out if this was true. And then as they're doing this, they have the most powerful aid in the Trump administration, Stephen Miller, go out and call their deceased son an assassin and a terrorist. And it was only by the time that they could sort of figure out what the hell was going on and others around them did people get around to saying, actually, no. He sang in a choir. He was a Boy Scout. He worked as an ICU nurse at a va. He wanted to do good. He was appalled by what was happening to his community. He felt compelled to go down there and help people. And then you see videos of him giving the last rights or whatever it's called. I'm probably butchering it to a veteran who had just died. You watch it and you're like, this man is good. Like, he's a good, honest, important human being, and he was taken from us. And they smeared him within minutes. And I. That blew me away. I like it. It knocked me over. That they could do that without any pause whatsoever really shows. I mean, obviously, there's a lot of things that, you know, make you question the moral character of the people in this administration, but this one, you just sort of sit back and you're just kind of like, I can't. I can't fathom doing something like that in my life.

D (9:10)

Yeah.

B (9:11)

Yeah. And I mean, law enforcement often gets the benefit of the doubt from the public reasons I sort of indicated before. But I think one point to say is low. State and local law enforcement do not behave this way, and they do not justify things in this way. And they're now trying to investigate. And I mean, the first response of ice, the first thing they did after the murder is try to keep any independent investigators.

C (9:37)

You saw the affidavits, right? I mean, so, yeah, they tried to keep the independent investigators away. There's a couple affidavits that came in overnight from people in and around the scene. One was from the woman in the pink coat who was. This was also shocking, where she was just like, I fear for my life now because I saw what happened, and they're trying to cover this up, and I need protection. I mean, think that's. I mean, it's chilling. Another one was from. Did you see this one? From the physician who was in an Apartment nearby. And he ran downstairs to see if he could help after hearing the shootings. And he came and he stumbled upon the situation in front of him. Clearly, man's been shot. Begging with these ICE people to let him. I'm a physician, let me check him. There's no one administering cpr. Alexander's body is on its side, which is not what you're supposed to do. He's pleading with the ICE officers and finally one of them says, sure, go ahead. And in the affidavit, he says what he discovered is that the ICE officers were there not trying to help save Preddy's life, but counting the bullet holes. Counting the bullet holes. And then he tries to administer cpr. Obviously it doesn't work. So, yeah, it does seem like in the aftermath, what they, what, what the ICE officials did was they, they moved really fast not to save Preddy, but to cover up the situation and to make sure that the right propaganda outlets knew that there was a gun on the guy and to count the bullet holes to get their story straight.

B (11:05)

And another thing that did happen overnight, I think this was literally in the middle of the night at 3am or something, a Trump appointed judge, actually in many a federal judge in Minnesota granted a temporary restraining order after the state and local. I think it's both state and local law enforcement asked for restraining order, preventing the feds from removing evidence, destroying evidence, and asking them to cooperate with local law enforcement. I mean, it's so astonishing that the state, local, believe me, I know a little bit about this being in government, some of stuff. State and local law enforcement do not pick fights normally with federal governments. It's not in their interest to do so and not in their inclination to do so. They work with these people all the time and they're in the same business, so to speak. Right. And so the fact that they felt necessary to go to court and that the court felt it necessary to grant the TRO is really astonishing, I think, and shows how the utter lack of belief that these people are telling the truth or behaving honorably and the lack of belief among cops and, you know, the chief of police and in Minneapolis and Minnesota state law enforcement.

C (12:13)

Well, I think it's, you know, I think all this kind of goes back to what happened after Renee Good's killing. Right. It's like, yeah, they didn't even bother to do an investigation of the officer in that case. Instead they investigated her. And then you had six attorneys from the attorney's office resign because of it. And so once you see that, and you're in that in the judicial system, I'm sure. And then they talk to each other. Obviously, you know, the game was kind of, the game was up at that point. They understood that there's not much at all in terms of wanting to get to the bottom of this. It's just strictly, let's defend our own. And that's that. And so you, you know, the next time it goes around, you're gonna, you're not gonna let that happen again or you're gonna try not to let that happen again. So we'll see. I mean, I, I have no confidence that the administration is going to cooperate at all in any of this. And, and how do you do an investigation without any cooperation? And then you get further down the road, let's say they want to issue a subpoena or an indictment or something like that. And you have Trump standing out there being like, no, no, absolute immunity, I'll pardon this person, I'll commute the sentence. You know, the, we're so past having any confidence in our judicial process around this issue that I, I'm not even like contemplating the idea that there will be justice for the person who shot this man.

B (13:30)

Yeah, no, I totally agree with that. But these are very dynamic situations.

C (13:33)

I mean, he should be arrest, let's be clear, he should probably have been either arrested or the, or some sort of authority should have taken him and talked to him and sat him down and had some sort of investigative procedure happening right now last night. I. Have you seen any news to suggest that's happening? I've nothing.

B (13:53)

Police departments routinely do that. He's questioned, he has an attorney 100%, he's told his rights. He's, he's not, you know, he's not railroaded. But I mean, yeah, no, that's unbelievable. So, so these, my one thing I've learned over the years is these, these big moments are. Remain big, they remain dynamic. I mean, the way it feels 24 hours later is not what it's going to look like 72 or hours later or a week later in terms of the overall mood, the overall politics, the overall implications. Sometimes they fade away, of course, after a couple of days. Sometimes the opposite. They become bigger and bigger. I'm young, I remember it's a 12 year old watching something like Selma March, civil rights march in 1965. And it's one of those things where, you know, those days, no Internet, of course, you saw clips of this, the Bull Connor and John Lewis and so forth. And it just became huge. You Know, increasingly, I mean. So what do you think? I have a thought about Congress. I want to hear from you more broadly maybe about what do you think of the overall politics. Is this a big moment, a possible. Everyone keeps looking for an inflection point and then like my friends say correctly, sophisticated friends say, look, there's no one inflection point. This is a matter of know, chipping away at the authoritarianism.

C (15:01)

Yeah, I think, I think there's hundreds of, there's hundreds of inflection points. Right. Some are bigger in magnitude than others and this is a big one. But like, you know, Renee Good was a big one but remember there was another guy who was shot in between those two. So this is our third shooting. That, that, that person lived. This is a, this is a, this is a really important inflection point. Whether it matters is, you know, we'll see. But it's an important one obviously and you can see it in, in various ways. I, I think people are, the polls show that people are fed up with ice public has turned on them. I mean Obviously there's the 40% who, who will just defend no matter what. But increasingly you do see a breaking through in cultural ways. Right? I mean we're not just talking about like Bulwarkian people. Joe Rogan's been out there. The barstool crowd yesterday was really upset with this very prominent barstool CR commentator who put out a really. And I encourage people to watch it the five minute video or just like what the is going on? Like what are we doing? There was a prominent NBA player finally speaking out against this. Now he happens to be out for the year, Tyrese Alberton. But he did put out a, a tweet saying that Alexander Preddy was murdered. That was good to see. You know, remember it used to be that athletes in Trump administration first term spoke out on issues of social justice and that has not happened this term. So it's good to see. And then, you know, I just. Who I think it comes down to like who you look at this and you say who wants to live like this?

D (16:34)

Right?

C (16:35)

Like who wants to live like this? There's got to be a better way. And I think normies understand that and I think a lot of the in, you know, the committed Trumpers will never admit any fault whatsoever. They'll find a way to some rationalization. But I think normal people look at this and say this is just an unacceptable form of governance. This is not. If we saw this in another country, we would call that country failed. And that's not. No one wants to live like that. Now, you mentioned Congress. I'm curious for your thoughts, because ultimately all this social pressure does sort of trickle down to the lawmakers, right? It's like they they're not I at this point, they're not going to lead us, we're going to lead them. So exactly.

A (17:20)

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C (18:52)

Do you think there's any backbone there from lawmakers? I don't know.

B (18:56)

No backbone, but maybe a little more willingness to move, as you say, because they'll respond to the broader social movement. I think what you said was very well said and very captured well, the kind of moment and the possible broader ramifications at the moment. My point about Congress in a way goes back to your earlier statement about the courts. There's a limit to what the courts could do, especially with an administration and a Justice Department utterly uninterested in cooperation or in the truth. So it's just, you know, they can get, they can do individual things. I admire these district judges who are doing Their best. But Congress actually has power now. I'm well aware of this. It's a Republican Congress and it's been utterly unwilling to stand up to Trump. On the other hand, there are 47 Democratic senators and 212 or something Democratic members. The marches are reasonably narrow. There are few Republicans who have shown a willingness to break its House. The 40 in the Senate, the 47 can actually stop things and hold some legislation hostage.

C (19:51)

We're going to shut down.

B (19:52)

Yeah, minimally. We already saw as of Saturday morning at 9am I'd see people like me who said you can't vote for DHS appropriations. We're not expecting, I don't think to necessarily hold 41 Democratic senators on that. And now that's going to happen. There's going to be at least the dhs, depending how the appropriations process works. At least the refusal to fund DHS may be a broader refusal to fund. We'll see what demands the Democrats make. Will they be more militant or will they be kind of, gee, would like to see a report on something in 60 days or something, you know. But more broadly, I guess I do think this is a moment. The Democrats need to be, in my view, very aggressive and make, and I guess the politics of this. They need to make this not just Trump's problem, not just Trump's chaos, not just Trump's disgrace, but the Republican Congress's problem and disgrace.

C (20:41)

Yeah.

B (20:42)

Then they need to introduce legislation. They want Food and Johnson want bring it to a vote. They need to scream every day where is, why can't we have a vote on this? You guys are scared. You're defend you. This is your, you're, you're responsible for ice, you're responsible for Bovedo, you're responsible for the Border Patrol. I think it's important for a couple of reasons. A, it's true because in fact, all the talk about. You see this even in Governor Wallace's statement, which I understand. But you know, I hope that Trump changes course, that that's, he's, he may change course temporarily. He does this a lot. He, he retreats on things. But he's been president for three more years. It's not like he's not going to, he's not going to change course. I don't believe for three years they'll go to some other city. And two, and you know, even if he pulls back a little in two months, it very. This is the moment to break his hammer lock on the Republican Congress. I think honestly, or at least to try and maybe you don't break it now, but maybe you loosen it a bit and break it later. I think it's a very big, potentially a very big political moment. I don't want to politicize the tragedy, but still it's appropriate. Congress actually has. I mean, if Congress does nothing, Congress is okaying this. Let's just be clear. These are congressionally authorized agencies using congressionally appropriated funds. And just it was fair for the opponents of the Iraq wars on the other side of this, obviously, 20 years ago to say inactivity by Congress means they're okay with this war. Inactivity by Congress in this case means they're okay with the Border Patrol and ICE doing what they're doing and lying about it and not investigating it and not correcting anything. And so I think Democrats really need to just put the monkey on the backs of the Republicans in Congress. There should be paid advertising campaigns, I think, against members of Republican members of Congress demanding they do something. I think in that respect, it's potentially a bigger moment than almost Eddie, that we've seen so far, I guess, except Epstein, which they're now, of course.

C (22:28)

Well, that was funny you mentioned Epstein. Let me speak from the perspective of someone who's covered Democrats.

B (22:33)

Yeah.

C (22:34)

Because I think it's, it will be helpful for the listeners here to understand this moment from, from that vantage point. There's been a couple, obviously, issues throughout this past year that have motivated Democrats and you can go through them. Right. Obviously, Doge was an incredible motivator. The, the Epstein files was a motivator, of course, the cuts to, you know, the attacks on universities, things like that, the government funding fight that resulted in a shutdown, you know, the Venezuela stuff, obviously. But I would argue that sort of on a, on a kind of like emotionally vulnerable level for voters, on a, on a, like a sort of psychic motivating level for Democrats, that this is probably the top issue at this point of the first year, that there's just something categorically different about how Democrats view this than Epstein. Like the Epstein stuff, for instance, they recognize that it was important, but they also recognized those incredibly politically vulnerable for Trump. And so they latched onto it and they really wanted to elevate it as a thing. The healthcare stuff, of course, Democrats care about that. They've always cared about it. But they were protecting a right that they had advanced and they weren't. And it was advantageous, clearly, for them. Right. Like they knew that they always benefit on health care when going into Republicans. Immigration is totally different. They've been vulnerable on it for four or five years. They had acquiesced early in the Trump years on it, given them the votes. They had watched as I've got ICE got $75 billion in additional funds and there was real sort of like anxiety about engaging on immigration. But I think for the Democratic voter and now the Democratic lawmaker, this issue matters in a way that the others don't. It's about the morality of our country. It's about who we are as a people. And so as we get into this funding fight and as we get into the issue of oversight, I think they're going to be motivated to draw a real line. I think they recognize now that if they do not stand up around this stuff, they would be signaling to all their voters that they just don't have it in them. There's not really much of a fight that they have that they don't really see the world in terms of right and wrong. And, and I think that's going to play a role here. Now. You're right. Like they don't have power other than they can stop things in the Senate. But they have to get creative. Right. They have to find ways to figure it out. And it could be just introducing votes like, or interesting legislation like you say. It could be some of them gone to ICE detention centers to, you know, to see with their own eyes. I wouldn't be surprised if we saw a bunch go to Minneapolis to, to see for themselves what's happening here. They just need to get creative. But I have to imagine after this that they understand how much this matters. So we'll see.

B (25:42)

No, that's, I think we'll learn a lot today, tomorrow or Tuesday because these things do move quickly one way or the other, or they settle down and turn out not to be a big moment. But I, I'm, I'm inclined to think it, it could be especially with some creativity and toughness on the part of the Democrats and really. And then I think some Republicans could bring. Susan Collins is in Maine.

C (26:01)

Where. I mean, they're in Maine right now, right? Yeah.

B (26:03)

I mean, does she feel comfortable with this? And what if is is, you know, then there's Rakowski and there are others. Tillis. I mean, you could have Ryan, you.

C (26:11)

Saw Bill Cassidy yesterday, you know, put out his statement saying he's found the video abhorrent. So we'll see.

B (26:17)

I'm not sure there wouldn't be 51 votes against the DHS approach bill, not just 47 to stop, you know, to, to, to, to, to uphold a clo to uphold filibuster. So very much of a moving, dynamic situation. We will stay on top of it. I'm going to let you go, Sam, and help shovel.

C (26:34)

Thanks, Bill.

B (26:34)

You can shovel the driveway there. The snow. Can your kids do that?

C (26:39)

I mean, what, they're not old enough? Yeah, I thought about it. Is it child labor to send a six year old out there to shovel in the cold? I don't. I think that's kidding. Got to get them a little tougher, you know.

B (26:48)

Exactly. Start off.

C (26:49)

Start off okay.

B (26:51)

You go off and help the six.

A (26:52)

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B (27:53)

Carrasquillo join us who's been in Minneapolis and elsewhere. Adrian, thanks for also being willing to join here Sunday morning. And Adrian, obviously you had the wonderful piece on Friday before this tragedy. Based on your reporting from Minneapolis this past week, you've been in Chicago, Louisiana, really at the front lines of all the immigration fights. I'm very curious about both what you saw in Minneapolis last week, but almost more importantly, what you've heard from your friends and contacts and sources in Minneapolis in the last 24 hours. And then more broadly, what's the mood on the front lines? What are people thinking about anything? Anything you have to share?

D (28:32)

Yeah, I think what I saw in Minneapolis was folks that are, are trying to do this work that are, that are shell shocked. You know, I think it sort of maybe for some of them feels like what, what war might feel like or they don't know what's coming next I spent a day with Carolina Ortiz, who's this sort of incredible leader, activist for this group called Copal, which is a Latino group out there. And they have a network, immigrant defense network of organizations across the Midwest. This is my, really my first time engaging deeply with them. And they're doing like honestly this work that I don't know where this community would be without these people. People are stuck at home, they cannot go outside. They're scared to go outside. Even if they're US Citizens. There's mixed status families. I was with her and I, I, we were on the morning phone call with across the Midwest, which then later on they were like, why is there a reporter on this phone call? But before, before they noticed that they were saying they were getting like 35% of their calls were we need groceries, we need food, we can't leave our home. 30% of the calls were we need rent assistance, we need utilities, we can't work. So this is like the sort of urgency that these people are working with. And then I'm talking to her and I'm just finding throughout the day like a deep, you know, she just feels like she's not doing enough and, and I'm like, you guys are doing so much and. But because it feels so alarming. So I was there with them on Martin Luther King Day. So obviously it's a federal holiday. A lot of folks are home and I just sort of wanted to see the work that was going on. And it had been a quiet 48 hours, which as we saw, unfortunately they were right to believe that a little too eerily quiet things are going to happen. These agents haven't gone anywhere things, you know something's going to happen. But for right now, they were sort of preparing and I saw the way they were preparing and trying to get lawyers and legal groups and things like that to help people who lost somebody or who can't find somebody. There was somebody with DACA status and somebody calls and says, you know, they've been taken. So things like that and the fear in those moments, which I think is like worth noting, just like in this specific cases, you want to do habeas paperwork, you want to contact a lawyer as quickly as possible because people get sent to Texas, as we saw with the young little boy, Liam Ramos. I mean, so this past week, the Renee Goode shooting, terrible. And I think a lot of people just understood how awful that was viscerally. But the last week bookended by the little boy that they took in that little hat, which has become sort of Iconic. And I thought that Renee Goode was really hitting people's emotions from just seeing people share. I've never seen more people share that little boy.

B (31:27)

And I'm gonna write on it this.

D (31:28)

Week, mothers and people just saying, like, what are we doing right? And he had no, no, no choice. His actions did not lead him to be here. Of course, what we saw with Alex Preddy and what we saw with Renee Good is they're being legal, they're. They're being ICE observers and they're in these situations, but they don't deserve to die. They don't deserve to become martyrs. And it's terrible what we saw. So, Justin, I think, I think this level of being she. I've seen people say that Minnesota is a state that is, that is well prepared and is a strong state to fight back. And I think that's what we're seeing. And I think it deserves, you know, sort of triple underlining the importance of U.S. citizens and, you know, white people joining this fight. Because there was a man in Chicago who was, who was shot and killed and there was video and DHS first said, oh, no, he tried to run us over with a car. And then the video showed that was not the case. He was Latino. He was dropping off his three year old son at daycare. And look, I think that when people, when we're dealing with the immigration fight, people are kind of saying, oh, well, I'm not sure about their legal status and I'm not sure. And, and you know, then all of a sudden it's. It's a white blonde lady. And all of a sudden it's, it's this ICU nurse which, as Sam said, a literal choir boy, a literal boy Scout. I mean, and the video of him, of him doing the last rites for that veteran, I mean, he was just clearly a good man who is defending an innocent person. And it's terrible, as we all know.

B (32:56)

Yeah, that's really powerful and interesting. I mean, to say a word about the broader Minneapolis community, which I think has been extremely impressive. And that's, you know, beyond the, as well as obviously the immigrants themselves doing their best under unbelievably difficult circumstances. And what, what have you heard in the last 24 hours as you've been talking to people on the phone in Minneapolis?

D (33:16)

Just, I think, you know, every moment that they think is going to be, things will stop, things will slow down, people will realize how terrible this is. And we saw with, with Renee Good that unfortunately people said, oh, well, she, she put herself in that situation. And so I think, just in general, what I am curious about and I think is sort of the next battleground is the abolish ICE conversation is, I think, pretty annoying to me. I cover this all the time, but because these fault lines are sort of obvious and they've always been clear among Democrats and people who support this and people who don't. But to me, that the, the next battleground was shown by Doug Stafford, Rand Paul's chief strategist, who tweeted, excuse me, but what the fuck borders in Minneapolis and when did it become illegal to carry a gun in America? Then he later deleted that tweet, but.

B (34:06)

I didn't know he deleted it. I think I retweeted it yesterday.

D (34:09)

Yeah, yeah, later deleted it. And that's, I think the biggest problem for Democrats. And you and Sam got into it. It's a failure of imagination. No matter what on immigration, no matter what you want to say about Trump and Miller, these guys are imaginative in their cruelty on how to get immigrants out or to make people's lives so terrible that they want to get the hell out of here or they're in detention with a court case and they're like, you know what? Just deport me. I'm being treated terribly. Democrats do not bring that same imagination to immigration. And so the question that I think is on a lot of people's minds is why is Border Patrol in Minneapolis like you could, as Democrats say, and we know this was decided a long time ago, the same with putting in the National Guard until people said, wait a second, actually the National Guard shouldn't be in our cities. And I think this is somewhere where Democrats can at least fight and can say, look, ICE is not going anywhere, but we need Border Patrol to go back to the border. Exemplified yesterday by Senator Chris Murphy, who said we could return CBP to the border. There are serious reforms that can be done as we figure out funding. And so anyway, I think people want Democrats to fight. The people of Minneapolis are fighting. So I think people want Democrats to fight.

B (35:18)

No, I very much agree. And I think they need to be imaginative about legislation. They should do a lot on the funding bill, obviously. And that's a matter of attaching, trying to attach limitations and conditions. But you know, they can introduce a one sentence piece of legislation tomorrow morning. The Border Patrol must leave it. There'll be no funding for the Border Patrol in Minneapolis or if you want to make it broader in other cities, not that are not within 10 miles of the border or whatever, period. And therefore, and when the implication of that, if there's no funding for it, is that they have to leave. We can say no funding except for their departure from the city. That's just like the no funding bills on Iraq and we're very used to in Congress over the years. That's how Congress deserves power. They refuse to fund certain operations in certain places. They didn't dissolve the US Army. They've said you cannot fight in Vietnam. And they prevailed on that eventually and they tried in Iraq and so forth. So, I mean, I, but that used to be, in my opinion, a one piece, one two sentence piece of legislation introduced tomorrow. 47 Democratic signatures screaming and yelling at Republicans to join. Why aren't you joining? Why aren't you joining? You think that the Border Patrol is doing a good thing in Minneapolis? You're defending what happened there? Oh, no, I'm not defending it exactly. But you know, it's very complicated. If I let them explain, they're not defending it. I just think people are under it. In a funny way are the critics of Trump. I mean, God knows I'm one of them and I'm probably guilty of this. We focus so much on Trump. They've got, the Democrats have to make the Republican Congress complicit in all this. And if they are complicit and if public opinion is moving, then they, you might be able to break the stranglehold Trump has on the Republican Congress on a couple of things. But that would be a start. Right? And I do feel like that's where they have to really just. And I think they should use paid advertising. I'm curious what you're hearing about what the pro immigration, pro immigrant rights communities are thinking of doing in terms of mobilization and the like. But I think if the Democrats, they just need to make the Republicans in Congress the object of if you're not stopping this, you're complicit in it, period. And you guys can explain though. I don't really like the fact that he was murdered, but I do like the fact that the Border Patrol is just going around beating people up. Is that their position? You know, I mean, so I mean, I feel like, yes, a lack of imagination and a little bit of a lack of nerve, I suppose. But anyway, I'm curious what you're hearing on the political congressional side of it. The political side, but also very interested in what. It's not like this thing's going away. It's not like they're not going to be mobilizations right over the next weekend, not just in Minneapolis. I don't know, tell me what you're hearing.

D (37:43)

You can foresee, of course, the administration is going to fight back on that. They like Greg Bevino out there in his weird sort of Nazi cosplay. When I was in Minneapolis, the. The agents were like, holding down a protester and shooting them in the face with, like, tear gas. I mean, just like beyond sick stuff. So they love the political theater. I don't think they necessarily going to give up without a fight. But that's why these are fights, right? You bring up a good question. I think it's an open question, which is one of the problems that has been over the last year is if I would reach out to groups. And these groups are trying to do this incredible work with lower levels of funding. A lot of funders stepped away from immigration when they saw what happened in 2024. Just sort of like, you know, with the Trump administration sort of doing their Eye of Sauron thing on anyone who they felt was doing liberal kind of organizing and fundraising. So groups, from what I heard, I did a story on this immigration funders, funders who did. Who do a lot of different work, these large sort of liberal foundations, some of them were like, well, we do good work and we don't want that to be stopped. So in the meantime, we might need to lower how much we're giving for immigration. And as we see, and as Sam was saying, like, this is the number one story. This was the number one story last year. You know, when I talk to Democrats in Congress and they say they're a little exasperated. And we literally had this conversation and it was so freaking sad because we all knew this was going to happen. After that second shooting, the federal agents, which got obviously less coverage. We just said on the phone, I was talking to a senior House Democrat, and it was like, there's going to be a third shooting, there's going to be a fifth shooting, there's going to be a tenth shooting. So when do Democrats say we have to stand for something because we cannot just allow this to happen? And they were just like, even if we win in November, there's not a new Congress until next January. So I think that that's where there needs to be this fight. And that's where I could see. And I bet these immigration groups are hoping that, you know, these liberal foundations and these groups start giving more money, realizing that this is the fight, you know, to show where you're different than Republicans.

B (39:51)

And I think, yeah, it is the, the emblem of the implicit, even strong enough word. But the example of The Trump administration's indecency, brutality, authoritarianism. All the other stuff's terrible. Don't get me wrong. I'm upset about Greenland and I'm upset about NIH Guts at all this. But this is, you know, you don't, you don't always choose what the central. What's the word I'm looking for? Not center of the battle, but the, you know, the kind of. The key place is and, and the key front.

D (40:21)

Right.

B (40:22)

It's such a surprise. But it is. This is it. I mean, this is it. And they're kidding themselves. So they think, you know what, we'll do this for a week and then we'll get back to kitchen table issues and the price of it. It was just idiotic in my view. And if they do that, they'll look, I think, pitiful. But what do you hear about mobilization on the ground? Will there be a mass? I was thinking, should there be? Fortunately, it's like the weather's horrible and looking glad today. Could there be at a week, instead of a no Kings rally and no murders rally, could you have a national mobilization? It's easy for me to say that it's incredibly hard to do these things.

D (40:53)

Well, I think that we should really. And the audience probably saw some of this, but the general strike on Friday was pretty remarkable. Thousands of people in the streets yelling ice out. I've seen people on my Instagram feed sharing it, saying, if you're feeling down, you need to watch this. And it's just this crowd erupting this intense emotion in negative 20 degree weather, a high of negative 9. I mean, this was the coldest day in, like, Minneapolis and I don't know, a decade or something. And there were people there. There was, you know, in the, in the article I wrote about the newsletter, there was a drummer who brought like 35 other drummers to just like, make a bunch of noise, basically on the Stone Architect Bridge. But he was talking about, like, wanting to bring attention to the groups like Copal that are doing this work and that he was an ice observer the day before Renee Goode was shot and killed, that him and his wife were like, basically following ice around and that ICE agents came to his home and called his wife by her name to chill them, to, to warn them. We know who you are. We know that these guys have this insane level of facial recognition software and they're taking pictures of license plates of activists to let them know you're going in a database. There was a video the other day of an agent saying that for domestic terrorists. So, you know, that, that was remarkable. And there's a lot of people that are fighting back. When I was there, I spoke to a business owner who, his business is down 90%. I mean, when I was in Chicago, I would hear these numbers, 40, 50% and, and they're going to have trouble surviving. This guy's basically like he, you know, they call them Americans. They're, they're, they're white. Customers are the only ones coming. Everybody else is too scared to come, but he has to feed his children, so he has to keep trying to come back. And a supermarket owner who is the owner of the building has given him three months that he doesn't have to pay rent. He's not paying himself anymore. He used to make a million dollars a month in revenue. Now he's making $175,000 in revenue. And the guy is still not only delivering groceries for free, which is clearly not free for him and his business. But he told me, I heard him over, I heard him, I did a pre interview with him and he told me something. And when I heard, when I got to the supermarket to interview him and do a video with him, he was talking to a New York Times reporter on the phone going over some of the same ground. But he did not tell him what he told me. He said, yeah, we do free groceries. We do groceries. But then he told me, if somebody doesn't have money, we bring them 150 worth of groceries. He doesn't like, try to advertise that that much. But I mean, again, this just gets back to the work that they're doing. So there will continue, you know, obviously we know Minneapolis and Minnesota is going to keep fighting. The Twin Cities are going to keep fighting. And I will be, I am sure that there will be more things like that and that their, the groups are cooking that up.

E (43:36)

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B (44:43)

But I also think that, you know, the mobilizing, beyond the admirable efforts of the immigrant groups to get mass demonstrations somewhere, maybe just a March on Washington type thing, I don't know. And that was, of course, I remember. But I remember reading about this. I was, I guess, 10 years old in 1963. You know, there was, people thought that was a mistake, the march on Washington, because it was very ambitious. They were busy fighting in the south, obviously, people getting murdered in the South. And you're going to really get people to come to Washington on behalf of civil rights, on behalf of what's happening, you know, to black Americans in the South. And of course, it was a huge moment. I don't know if that's doable. Maybe not in the middle of the winter, and maybe it's not appropriate even, or not the right thing. But again, it's part of being imaginative, I think is. And I do think no King shows the power of that. No. Who thought that? No one thought that. Most. Most of us. I was for it, but I mean, didn't expect it to have the impact it did have. But I think it did really have an impact.

D (45:36)

So I think there's been a perverting, you know, over the last decade of what protest is in America. And, and that it's not. There's nothing wrong with that. And, and obviously, you know, that going back to civil rights movement. But, you know, even with Obama, when I started covering immigration, groups were protesting him outside the White House. And then you had folks inside the White House who were saying, hey, we're not those crazy lefties banging on the gate. So how about you work with us when we figure out some stuff. And, and things like that led to DACA and other things to help people. And you know, someone shared recently, I think it's like the ICE Handbook where they say people are allowed to yell at you, people are allowed to curse at you. That doesn't then necessitate you shooting them in the face. I mean, and so I get really Uncomfortable when I see the way that the extreme violence that they're responding with. Of course we're not saying that people should go out there and get killed and that we don't want any of that to happen. But there's a big disconnect between, with these folks, you know, like the tear gas and all that stuff is terrible and over the top, but just the way they are responding with such unchecked violence. And I wrote about this with I think US Citizens is dangerous for them when it's Latinos and when it's mixed status. And I'm not sure if they're here legally that falls into their narrative that and they love that ground. But when it's these US citizens, this guy who's a nurse, this guy who clearly cares for people standing up and being so brave, I mean incredibly brave. They already saw Rene good shot. There was a group yesterday on Instagram, sort of new ICE out of New York type of group and they saw, and for the first time I saw a statement like this where they said, hey, look, I know we're all in ice.

B (47:09)

Watch.

D (47:10)

If you're feeling uncomfortable with what you're seeing, you want to take a step back, you can still work with us, you can still help the movement. You don't have to be as forward facing. I've talked to groups in Chicago that are teaching people how to link bodies, right. And then they saw how violent ICE was and when I was there they were like, we're going to change strategy. You can say in the article, we're going to change strategy but don't give all the details of what we're, we're trying to respond to ice violent tactics and figure out a better way of doing it. So that is just incredibly powerful and I think going to continue. And I can't even believe how these people can do this, to be out there in the freezing cold and standing up for their neighbors.

B (47:46)

It's.

D (47:46)

It's just remarkable.

B (47:48)

It is. I do think it's got, I mean I take your point very much about how it's one thing if sort of middle class white Americans gets get shot and another thing if it's darker skinned, maybe not Americans or immigrants, maybe undocumented immigrants in some cases it shouldn't be that way, but there are. People react naturally, I suppose more if it's someone they sort of identify with. But I kind of feel like maybe this moment has moved us a bit beyond that distinction. I mean, I do think people understand something that scholars incidentally have been saying for a Long time. And I actually wish some of us, we should publicize some of that scholarship more. Once you start down this road of brutal immigration restrictionism and mass deportation, it doesn't stop with the people you're deporting. You are destroying civil liberties in your own country because it turns out to do the mass deportation, you have to do what ICE is doing. You have to actually prevent American citizens from helping defend the rights of, of non American citizens and of people who are here either legally or, or undocumented. So I mean, it's not an accident, so to speak. It's not like you can't distinguish them ultimately. And I think that's kind of come home, don't you think? And because of Minneapolis a little more than maybe in LA or Chicago actually.

D (49:04)

Yeah. And I mean, you know, I'm listening to Sam say that he was just glued to this yesterday. And it can be a little hard sometimes. Like, I'm just sort of balancing, you know, I, I talked to my therapist about like, do I want to really hang out with ICE agents? You know, all that stuff. Right. Sort of when your body's like, why are we doing this? And, and, and we talked about the spiritual resilience that you get. This was his term, which I really like that you get from doing the things that you like to do in life. And, and, and that helps you do the hard stuff. And so when I was talking to this activist, Carolina, I was like, like, how are you doing this? Like, how is this something that you get up and do every day? She's up at 5:30 in the morning bringing groceries to people. I mean, it's just insane. And she said she talked to her father and her parents are immigrants and, and they're undocumented. And her father was like, I know you're brave, so it's okay. Like do, do the work that you feel is right. And that made her feel that she could, she could give her all. And look, I tweeted yesterday, if they're doing this in public, in full view and video, what are they doing in private to immigrants? There was already a, the Medical examiner called 1:1 death in Texas of a Cuban man homicide. And the report was that that he wanted his medication. I think they just choked him to death. I mean, what is happening in private in these places if what we're seeing in public is so horrible? So this is not going to go away. And it's just, it's just really terrible.

B (50:27)

I don't want to end on that note, but it's. Well, but this is, but also it's a moment of resilience and a moment of rebellion, I would almost say, against accepting this. I mean, that, I think, is what's crucial, that the people, both the God knows, the immigrant groups which are doing such heroic work, but the people of Minneapolis in general, I think, have shown us this, that this is not the America we want to live in. And I'm very curious. I really look forward to your continued excellent reporting on this over the next weeks and months. I wish you didn't have to do it, honestly. But I think it's, and I think it is the issue, it's the story. I mean, as I say, I'm personally interested in many other stories and written a lot about NATO and Greenland and all, but I think this is the, this is the central point of the fight against authoritarianism in America.

D (51:10)

If we want to sort of leave it on a slightly more positive note, which I do in my newsletter from time to time, it can't all just be sad stuff. There was a time that it was an open question if people were going to fight back. I mean, there was a time where last year we sort of saw, hey, this is terrible. Kilmar, El Salvador, Venezuela. There were. And what we saw, as I think, you know, we wrote in a recent newsletter, it was this chipping away of his support on immigration, of people saying, I don't support that. I, I didn't think the border was porous, but what are we doing in our communities now? And so now people are fighting back and now people are watching. And at least that that's something to hang our hat on.

B (51:45)

No, it's something very important and as I say, very could be a very big moment more broadly in terms of Trump's, the credibility of the administration. It's hold on the Republican Congress, I think. I don't want to go too political here, but I do feel like as a political matter, I still think Democrats and the opposition in general to Trump underestimates the centrality of this issue. And if you could break Trump's hold on the public and on Congress on this issue, you really have changed the path of, I think, the authoritarian, of authoritarianism in the U.S. but we'll see, I guess, right? It's not changed. One thing we've learned about these things is they're dynamic. Right. It's not going to feel this way. It's not going to feel the way it does now, three days from now or three weeks from now. And Adrian, thank you for covering all this. It's not been easy for you, I know, but you've really done a great job, and I really appreciate it.

D (52:33)

I appreciate your coverage as well.

B (52:34)

And thanks for joining me today. And thank you all for joining us on Bull Work on Sunday.